HANSARD
Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services
COMMUNITY SERVICES COMMITTEE
Ms. Marilyn More (Chairman)
Mr. William Langille
Mr. Mark Parent
Mr. Gary Hines
Mr. Jerry Pye
Mr. Gordon Gosse
Mr. Russell MacKinnon
Mr. Stephen McNeil
Mr. Leo Glavine
In Attendance:
Ms. Mora Stevens
Legislative Committee Coordinator
Ms. Rhia Perkins
Provincial Secretary
Nova Scotia League for Equal Opportunities
WITNESSES
Mr. Claredon Robicheau
Chairman, Nova Scotia League for Equal Opportunities
Founder and volunteer manager Le Transport de Clare
Ms. Jen Powley
Provincial Coordinator, Nova Scotia League for Equal Opportunities
[Page 1]
HALIFAX, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 24, 2005
STANDING COMMITTEE ON COMMUNITY SERVICES
9:00 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Ms. Marilyn More
MADAM CHAIRMAN: I will call the Standing Committee on Community Services to order. I'm very pleased to have with us Claredon Robicheau, an old friend from my former life who is representing the Nova Scotia League for Equal Opportunities and he is also the founder and volunteer manager for Le Transport de Clare. We will be joined shortly by Jen Powley. So perhaps we will go around and introduce ourselves. Gordie, would you like to start?
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MADAM CHAIRMAN: So welcome, Claredon. I understand you have a presentation you would like to give to us first.
MR. CLAREDON ROBICHEAU: Great. I'm going to talk about the personal story of Le Transport de Clare because you can bring a lot of numbers and statistics but at the end of the day it is real lives, real people and real communities. Let's go back, if I may, 11 years ago, 1994. So let's picture 1994. We started a cross-disability organization in the Municipality of Clare called Clare Organization Representing People with Disabilities. Two years of meetings of a group of 30 or so people with disabilities, and that's a cross-disability organization. There were four siblings in my family with muscular dystrophy, it's not a wheelchair committee, it's the blind and the hearing impaired. Having said that, keep in mind if there was a blind person here today, we would let the blind speak for themselves. So although we are a cross-disability organization, we respect and want to help each other and work together as a team.
[Page 2]
After two years of being formed, we thought how many more meetings are we going to meet and talk about home care, talk about lack of housing and affordable housing for people with disabilities, human rights, education, employment, all these things the able-bodied people take for granted? So we joined the Nova Scotia League for Equal Opportunities in 1994, moved on and learned about transportation a bit because NSLEO, Nova Scotia League for Equal Opportunities, our provincial affiliate, is 25 years old this year, so it's happy birthday for our organization. Who would have known that April 1, 1996, Le Transport de Clare, Pictou and CHAD - Central Highlands Association of the Disabled, Ron Levy is the chairman - would start on April Fool's Day 1996, a transportation system.
Personally, as Chairman of CORD, Clare Organization Representing People with Disabilities, we had to take the bull by the horns and say, okay, we need to put a van on the horn. We had $2.35 in our bank. We didn't have a phone. It was one of the spare bedrooms in my house. We started with a little shoebox factory. So it is like the little pizza shop. Do you hire 20 staff? No. It means the owner is going to put in 120 hours a week and he's going to be paid 20 hours a week. It's like any normal business and I'm a former banker with the Toronto-Dominion Bank for 15 years so I knew a bit about that.
I also knew a bit about community capacity and that's the capacity of a community to use their volunteers at the right place, businesses doing the right thing, Lions Club, Legion, Knights of Columbus. The Municipality of Clare has a population of 9,200, 80 per cent French/Acadian culture and it's 30 miles long by 30 miles deep. I had my own personal transportation, my own personal van but it was the lack of affordable and mostly accessibLe Transportation. Did we know what we were doing? I would say half. Did we put it on paper? Yes we did. Back then, let's not forget from 1990 to 1995, the federal government had $25,000 capital grants. It doesn't exist anymore, but let's keep that in mind.
In 1990, in Ottawa, they decided to write a $1 million cheque a year for Canada for five years. Why was it the right thing to do then and it's not now? With the Romanow Commission Report and all these other holistic, wellness and let's stop putting people in hospital beds, let's keep them well idea. We had $20,000. We went to the community, the Lions Club wrote a cheque for $2,000, the Legion a cheque for $1,000, because the first thing you have to do is put gas in your machine before it gets on the road. Also, you need insurance, you need all these things to get on the road, a telephone. Totally 100 per cent volunteer model and we are still on the 90 per cent volunteer model and we will talk about that later.
Our first-year revenues on the road, $4,000 in fares. We had more: the Lions Club, Comeau's Sea Foods, Frenchy's, the pharmacists, they were $1,000 a pop, supporting our own fares but it's like anything, you build as you go. The other thing you build in a business is public relations and as you go and build, you build a good reputation and rapport on what you are going to do.
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To my left is Jen Powley.
MS. JEN POWLEY: It is kind of ironic that on a committee about transportation, I'm late because Access-A-Bus got lost and there was an accident and they picked me up. It makes a good story so my apologies.
MR. ROBICHEAU: We chose to call it Le Transport de Clare. There was, in Bridgewater, Senior Wheels that had started maybe a year before us and they have been around. The Kinsmen write a cheque and the Kinsmen drivers drive it and they do downtown Bridgewater and only downtown Bridgewater. Labelling is a lot. A lot of young people won't use the Senior Wheels so there is a bit of labelling there. I think one of the things we did is called it Le Transport de Clare. That's all we are. Now it happens to be there is a little wheelchair sticker on the side of the van for accessibility, but don't call us the handicap van. A bit of labelling happened though because I, personally - three of us - fundraised $30,000 in three months. Done. Bang. We are on the road April 1st.
Due diligence, like any board governance, you have to have a good board. I might have been a good leader and maybe still am but you need a committee to back it up and it's like anything else, you need a good committee to back it up. You get good corporate citizenship, you get good municipal connections and everything. The Municipality of Clare wrote a $4,000 cheque that year and committed it for as long as we would be on the road. They didn't know exactly where we were going with this but that was a good commitment and we report to them yearly.
The other thing about board governance, I don't know if it was being smart or being lucky, but the committee of Le Transport de Clare is a lady from VON Home Care, a gentleman from the Legion, the ambulance coordinator, a person from the school board and a person from New Horizons. I surrounded myself with good community leaders who were consumers - and a long-term care facility, that's the other one - who knew what we would do and would check and balance us as we went because we were inventing something very new.
The first year maybe 1,000 passenger trips a year. Our revenue fares were $4,000. We might be logging 30,000 kilometres a year. To give you a perspective today, where Le Transport de Clare is nine years later, our fares this year are peaking over $40,000. It's just a comfy pillow. Over $40,000 in fares. Now again, it is like the pizza shop where you open a small pizzeria. You are really not going to go to the bank saying the first year we're going to make a couple hundred grand profit and we're going to pay the mortgage, the banker and we're going to employ all these people and all this stuff. You start slowly and build up.
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[9:15 a.m.]
For the first four years we've had one second-hand van on the road. It was hard when you're inspected by a review board every six months like a school bus and he takes you off the road and it takes you three days to fix that transmission or the brake job or this and that, when you've got clients and customers who want a drive. That wasn't good rapport and good public relations. It wasn't fun during the first two years on the road to cancel three days because I couldn't find a spare driver. When you're making $40 an hour, you're expected to go to work if you got a little cold, but when you're a volunteer, you stay home, that's the volunteer system. So, besides that, we kept on plugging away and moving on. Success was built from there.
Who, nine years ago would have guessed what we did? Who would have predicted that gas would be $1 a litre? Who would have predicted that seniors over 65 would be paying up to $3,000 a year for insurance? Who would have guessed that a one-way non-emergency trip by ambulance and a non-emergency medical trip to the seniors home or somebody living in a wheelchair at home needing to go to a bone density or cataract surgery, MRI or whatever it may be at a local hospital would be $605 one-way trip? Did we know that nine years ago? We did not. So it just keeps on building almost yearly why we should be on the road and have Nova Scotia public transportation. It happens to be accessible. So don't forget the part about this is not the handicap van, this is not the charity van.
There are two things that Le Transport de Clare needs to work on in its marketing plan in the next couple of years. One, the founder is in the wheelchair, so who's on the local radio trying French? Claredon. Who's on CBC news, a 20-minute documentary, two years ago, about our committee's success? Claredon, he's in the wheelchair. Who fundraised $30,000 in 1996 in three months? I mean that's a lot of money for a small town. Me and two other people. Again, it emphasized the charity model. Corporate citizenship is one side of the van, it's just like buying a newspaper ad, Comeau's Sea Foods and Frenchy's and these corporate citizens that write $1,000 cheques a year, $5,000-some a year. On this side of the van, the Lions Club, the Legion, the Canadian Association for Community Living, the Municipality of Clare, it's there. Municipality of Clare, $4,000 a year, is it enough? No. I'm going to go see them very soon, after the election, it's time to double that.
This was after the fact, August 2003, that's a $64,000 one-ton van, that's exactly the same model as the ambulances, because I haven't seen many broken ambulances on the side of the road, so I thought well, that's not a bad idea. One-ton, one wheelchair capacity in the rear and with folding seats, three capacity, if you fold down you can play with that and go up to nine passengers. Heavy-duty diesel, our fuel costs went down and that's the right machine for us. In Pictou where you have Pictou, Trenton and all those stops, they need the big Access-A-Bus vans. In Kentville, Yarmouth and probably St. F.X. area, once they do get off the ground, they would need the minivans, which you've seen, my personal van here, which is a Dodge Caravan with the lowered floor. I even think that Halifax would have room
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for stuff like that, with having that Access-A-Bus flying around Halifax with one passenger on board.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Claredon, I'm just going to break in here, if you want to just finalize your comments and then we'll move on to Jen, and more information will come out during the questions as well.
MR. ROBICHEAU: No problem.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
MR. ROBICHEAU: When we put that on the road last year, it's a $64,000 machine, we borrowed $11,000, that's it, that's the only amount of money we've borrowed and it's paid for. The problem is that our 1995 van had 330,000 kilometres and with the business we have to date, we cannot just have one van, if that one breaks down, there are school boards waiting for us on contract. The Villa Acadienne in May of last year had a verbal agreement with us, the seniors' home, 80 beds is not going to replace their van, we're going to be the service providers for them. This is on the back though, it's a good story but at the end of the day is it sustainable, long-term and it's on the back of volunteers, managers and that is 100 per cent run, driven by five volunteer drivers. They're professional, they're RCMP checked, their driver's abstract, licence, insurance and all those things, but can that be sustained forever? No. Thank you very much.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Claredon. Jen, welcome.
MS. POWLEY: Again, my apologies. Do I need to be near a mic or is it okay?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: We're getting a signal that you're just fine. Why don't we just go around and re-introduce ourselves for Jen's sake. Gordie, just quickly.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MS. POWLEY: Claredon spoke about some of the more logistical elements. What I wanted to speak to you about was my experience, more about self-worth, self-determination and independence. My experience is from within Halifax, but I think the themes are universal. Can you guys think back to one day where you started a new job, generally that feeling for me was always a kind of a mix of anxiety and anticipation. You want to impress your boss, you want to make friends with your co-workers, you want to do those things and as well you want to feel good about yourself. You want to prove to yourself that you're competent. So you have this perfect job picked out and then you find out you can't take the job. Why? Because you can't secure transportation. That's a reality.
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What would that do to your self-worth and confidence. People with disabilities face so many barriers already, personally as well as within the community. The fact that I can't dress myself, I can't brush my teeth, I can't even pour myself a glass of milk in the morning, sometimes they are so hard to open. But to have something external that is so basic and so fundamental to us determine something that can add another barrier to those barriers that you already face, it seems almost absurd. So you can't get the job. In the past month I know of three such scenarios that have come to me personally.
I know a woman who was trying to - her teacher was actually telling me about her - do her GED, her problem is that she can't get to the classes, securely. She doesn't know if she will be able to show up, so what happens to her dreams? I know another woman who can't get to her volunteer placement. I know a guy who has stopped looking for a job because he just couldn't secure transportation. Who is going to hire somebody who says, well, I might get to work, 15 minutes late, my apologies, if I get there at all? I mean it just doesn't work.
So I think we all understand the importance of transportation and why it's so fundamental to any community, whether they be able-bodied or disabled.
NSLEO recognizes that and that's why transportation has always been a big part of the move to make people with disabilities equal to all other citizens. It shouldn't be a privilege to have transportation. I shouldn't be thankful that, at least I got a trip here. That's isn't what transportation should be. I should have options and I shouldn't need to depend on one service and thank my lucky stars that I've got any service at all, even if I am 15 minutes late.
Since 2001, since the CTAP and ATAP funding was put in place by the province, the NSLEO position papers have focused on these areas. Not because the other areas aren't important - we address some of the other needs in other papers - but because we need to focus.
Three other things that we are looking at with the Nova Scotia League for Equal Opportunities position papers are operating funds. Right now, the province gives $1.41 per capita across the province, rural. Now, that's not the cities which we could get into but that's another debate. Frankly, that's inadequate. They've said, well, up to $0.5 million, but the fact is, if it's per capita and there are only eight services on the road - because there's a lot to getting a community-based transportation system up and running. If you have to fundraise for $90,000 to buy a vehicle, it's quite a barrier. Then, if it's volunteers - there needs to be a lot of momentum in place to get that happening.
We're lucky we have eight going and we appreciate all the volunteers who do contribute, like Claredon said, but if we have to depend on volunteers from Metro Transit, can you imagine how many of us would or wouldn't get to work every day? I mean, it's just not feasible in the long-term.
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NSLEO is asking for an increase in that $1.41 per capita to $1.60. That certainly won't pay for drivers, dispatch or managers but it will at least counteract the effects of rising fuel costs, maintenance costs and, the big one, insurance. Then we're looking at, hopefully, getting municipalities, like in Pictou, or as Claredon mentioned, his community does kick in a small bit but that's not enough. Operating expenses is a big one.
We're looking at capital costs. Claredon mentioned fundraising and Claredon mentioned, quite eloquently, that accessibLe Transport should be - I don't want to say a right, but it certainly shouldn't be looked at as a privilege. It should be looked at as something as fundamental as clean drinking water or septic systems. It should just be in place. Capital expenses are another big portion. We are asking for four grants from the provincial government, so organizations like Le Transport de Clare can put their systems into place.
Then the other thing the position paper outlines is a small-market operating grant. The fact is that, it doesn't matter if you are serving 150,000 or 50,000, some of those basic operating expenses are going to be the same. So we're asking that the minimum grant per service be $20,000.
I think, in the end, what people with disabilities want and need are options, public transportation, things like Le Transport de Clare or Access-A-Bus, Metro Transit or HandiBus, I believe it's called, in Sydney, that's one option but it has to work. I mean, the fact that I have to book my trips more or less to guarantee them two weeks in advance - but even then, I don't know until 48 hours in advance if I actually get a trip. It's ridiculous and I don't think most able-bodied people would stand for it. Most able-bodied people have other choices. They have other options. If that doesn't work for them they can do something else. A lot of people with disabilities don't have any other options. That's their only choice. So better use it than not to have anything at all. So public transportation should be one option.
[9:30 a.m.]
Private transportation, things like taxis - I'm sure you're all familiar with the situation in HRM, where there hasn't been a taxi service but that's another option that people should have. Maybe it takes government grants and subsidies to make up the costs for operating but I think the operation itself, if done properly and dual-use vans were accepted, it could be just as profitable as a regular taxi company.
The other option is to allow people with disabilities to be independent. That's providing the technical aids they need, be it a manual chair, a scooter or a power chair or assistants, and making sure those things are happening. Getting the community to commit to accessibility, proper snow-clearing, things of that nature, audible crossing signals, that's what we need to be independent. That's what Community Services, as a whole, should strive
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towards. People with disabilities want to contribute and they should be able to contribute but, yes, they do need extra supports to make that happen. Thank you.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thanks very much. Could I just clarify something before we open it up for questions? When you talked about the formula for their operating expenses, you made some reference to that it's only available in rural communities?
MR. ROBICHEAU: Yes, rural Nova Scotia only. The Dial-A-Ride system, the CTAP, is for rural only. It excludes dense populations, HRM and Sydney. You have to exclude them from the picture.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, and that funding comes from?
MR. ROBICHEAU: The Municipal Affairs Department.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: The provincial level.
MR. ROBICHEAU: The provincial Municipal Affairs, it was created in 2001, and it's four years old.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir, for explaining that.
MR. ROBICHEAU: We've been lobbying for 10 years.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay.
MR. ROBICHEAU: If lobbying is permitted, the word "lobbying". Advocacy may be . . .
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes. We also have with us Rhia Perkins, who is the Provincial Secretary of Nova Scotia LEO. Rhia, if there is anything you want to add, you can just come up to the standing mic there.
Now, in terms of our speakers' list, we have Stephen, Mark and Jerry. Anyone else want to indicate at this - okay, Stephen?
MR. STEPHEN MCNEIL: Thank you, Madam Chairman, and thank you both for your presentation today. It's great to see you all again.
My question is also around the funding that was just mentioned by the chairman. It's my understanding that is a bulk amount of money that is put aside - roughly $500,000 - and it's divided on population, per capita?
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MR. ROBICHEAU: Per capita, $1.41. It was announced as a $0.5 million project in 2001. Keep in mind, they put enough money in the program because they knew the first year or two it would not all be used. We didn't know how, potentially, it would grow in Nova Scotia. We're nine services four years later and there are 10 counties still not covered. So the potential to develop in those 10 counties could have been in two or three years from now, and where we should have chewed that up. Unfortunately, the growth hasn't been there but we are up to eight services.
MR. MCNEIL: How much of that $0.5 million . . .
MR. ROBICHEAU: It's $397,000.
MR. MCNEIL: What happens with the remainder?
MR. ROBICHEAU: That's the sad part. It is use it or lose it. So that's why we made the point in the presentation this year, our position on transportation. They have to take the handcuffs off so that if it grows - which is what we hope it does - that that program, money-wise - don't wait a year for it to grow if it runs out of money.
The sad part on top of that one, which is the horrific part, we only found out six months into this fiscal budget that in that money, there was $50,000 for capital; five $10,000 capital grants. So like I said, buying a $64,000 or $94,000 machine and you only have $10,000. We were told in July that that had been cut to $20,000, so only two organizations could apply this year for a $10,000 capital grant, so it was unfortunate.
MR. MCNEIL: In the rural areas, is there any compensation in the formula for the population being dispersed over a large geographical region?
MR. ROBICHEAU: No, and that is exactly why our position paper mentioned a $20,000 line item for low-density population and you live exactly in Annapolis County and Shelburne County is the other county of concern. Can you imagine Inverness County? When that is divided there will probably be three chunks of pie, where the nearest hospital is 100 miles that way or 100 miles that way. That is an area where there needs to be added money put in the pie without taking it from Le Transport de Clare, or Yarmouth Dial-A-Ride. New money, because we're barely surviving to assist those very low-density populations.
MR. MCNEIL: You say you are barely surviving, I think you might be one of the better ones.
MR. ROBICHEAU: I'm on $12,000 a year, is what Le Transport de Clare gets, and we can't survive on that but I figured if I did this job I'd be working 15 to 20 hours a week, so I'm probably saving the system $20,000 a year and my drivers, $25,000 a year. So that is $40,000 that we're putting into Le Transport de Clare to buy that new van that you saw.
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MR. MCNEIL: The province has set aside $0.5 million in terms of . . .
MR. ROBICHEAU: Not set aside . . .
MR. MCNEIL: Okay, but just follow me, $0.5 million which they have budgeted, obviously, they've said it can be maxed at $500,000 at $1.41 per capita. Have they been approached to use the little over $100,000, which is presently not being used at $1.41, for capital purchases?
MR. ROBICHEAU: Yes.
MR. MCNEIL: And the response has been?
MR. ROBICHEAU: No. I was in the lock-up of the provincial budget and it was my first experience at it - and am I going to do it every day? No, I don't think so. NSLEO was very disappointed at the last provincial budget, there was no increase whatsoever in the Dial-A-Ride system for the province. We stated that was a disappointment because the Department of Municipal Affairs which runs the program knew very well that we were capital-starved.
MR. MCNEIL: Have they shown any support to you?
MR. ROBICHEAU: Recently? Yes.
MR. MCNEIL: But have they shown any support in the sense of breaking down the silos which happen in government at every level, of you being the first choice of option in terms of providing transportation to rural areas, for example, people who need transportation from a nursing home to a doctor's appointment, for someone in Community Services who needs transportation to an appointment. Are you their first option or are they now presently just allowing their department to hire taxis, pay 34 cents a kilometre or whatever it happens to be, to whomever they can get? Have they shown any leadership to try to bring together the money that they are spending outside of what they are presently spending on accessibLe Transportation, to allow you to have a piece of that pie?
MR. ROBICHEAU: The short answer is no. The little longer answer is, the best department that has treated us equally is Community Services. Before we came around, they were paying $1 per kilometre for a taxi, basically that's what they were paying and that's out of the taxpayers' pockets. They are paying us 50 cents per kilometre, so it's half price.
Community Services was paying that $605 bill for a one-way trip, so it's $1,200 round trip by ambulance, which from Meteghan to the Yarmouth Regional Hospital is 100 kilometres round trip. We're charging them $75 to the long-term care facilities and long-term
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care used to be under Community Services, and now they are under the Department of Health.
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The Department of Health and Department of Education and the other places where we are not talking interdepartmentally. For example, we figure we're saving the Department of Health over $200,000 in ambulance fees, because the long-term care facilities are sending the bill to the district health authority. They don't give us the whole $600, but I'll do it for half price.
MR. MCNEIL: I'll pass on and let someone else in. I just want to close by saying I know that the Trans County Transportation Society in my area does an excellent job. I have testimonials in my office from people who are telling me that they've been given a new lease on life because of the transportation society in my area.
MR. ROBICHEAU: What value do you give to a veteran who, on a Saturday, we brought to the funeral of a fallen comrade that was 50 miles away? What is the value to the Department of Community Services and now the Department of Health, to go to a long-term care facility and take a great-grandmother, in a wheelchair, from the facility to their homestead on Christmas Eve? You find me a driver who will work on Christmas Eve, we do. What is the value of that?
Jen alluded to the people trying to go to GEDs. What is the value of us transporting many single parents to community college and then saying, by the way, when you get that minimum wage job, we'll bring you to work and we'll bring you back? What is the value of that? Quite a bit. Thank you.
MS. POWLEY: Madam Chairman, can I address that question?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes.
MS. POWLEY: When you were asking if other provincial programs support Le Transport de Clare, there is a flip-side to that coin. I know in Halifax, Community Services has been trying to download people from using taxis and things to the Access-A-Bus system, but without proper funding of the Access-A-Bus system, then things get muddled at that level. I think Le Transport de Clare would have the same problem.
In order for those partnerships to happen - and although they're a cost saving in the long run - unless you also provide the support at the same time, any of that kind of sharing and using of the system as it should be used, can have cracks and pitfalls.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Mark.
MR. MARK PARENT: Thank you, Jen and Claredon, for being here. I appreciate the work and effort that you put into raising a very important issue and doing advocacy work. We have a rather sad situation in my area with the Kings County Alternative Transportation Services Society - and Claredon knows well about it - it has exacerbated problems that they
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had prior to that, in terms of fundraising. I don't know what the final outcome of it will be, because it was an essential service in our area and still is in its scaled-back form.
I was going to ask a few questions on - and I think the chairman already asked one - the Dial-A-Ride. I would like to know the LEO - the League for Equal Opportunities - Dial-A-Ride and CBTA, how do they all work? Are they independent organizations? I noticed the Kings County Alternative Transportation Services Society is a member of Dial-A-Ride and a member of CBTA but not of LEO.
MR. ROBICHEAU: LEO is an advocacy organization for people with disabilities across Nova Scotia and transportation is one of the main flags. Home care, housing for the Building Code and Access Awareness Week, now led by us through an Access Awareness Week committee called PAANS. So that's an advocacy organization that has affiliates. They used to be called DUEL, Disabled United Equality for Life, in Kentville and they were an affiliate of ours and they are re-energizing and hopefully are going to come back on stream as a Kentville area affiliate.
Dial-A-Ride is eventually growing in numbers with Le Transport de Clare and the CHAD bus and all that stuff. There is a 1-800 number being flashed around and if you press 3 you get Le Transport de Clare, press 4 you get Pictou or whatever. The branding is, what do we call ourselves? Nova Scotia Transit. Well, no, that's HRM's area. So they call it Nova Scotia Dial-A-Ride and we thought yes, that's a good name, but Le Transport de Clare has been there nine years. I can't use Clare Dial-A-Ride. I could change it to Clare Dial-A-Ride and maybe I will in the future. Dial-A-Ride is the service provider and maybe the future ones like Yarmouth Dial-A-Ride. Sometimes a society runs it so they run their society name on the bus.
NSCBTA has had its ups and downs, you can imagine the energy and the synergy of our association that as service providers, we're burned out as far as inventing this and you can imagine the struggle we've had with insurance over the last couple of years.
[9:45 a.m.]
Nova Scotia Community Based Transportation Association is all the Dial-A-Ride people who want to join the system, so there are eight of us. But at the end of the day we've realized - this year we had our AGM in November and we've rebuilt after two years of not being on the radar at all, that sharing best practices and that sort of thing, bulk purchasing of fuel might be something down the road but in the end we can't all be service providers. We need the Jen Powleys there, the local municipal councillor, the person from the Department of Health at the table because other than that we're just preaching to the converted. We're only sharing best practices which we can do on the phone, and we can gather statistics about us and we're starting to.
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One of the things NSCBTA, the association of service providers, needs to do better is to show in there the numbers of in-kind money in the formula. The Department of Municipal Affairs has a piece of pie, money-wise, but we need to do our homework to understand how many in-kind contributions we're getting from management and volunteer drivers, to get a better understanding of what we're contributing to the system. So those are the three.
Going back to NSLEO, we've been the flagship for 25 years, this year, about transportation, before Dial-A-Ride or any of this happened. Our national affiliate, Council of Canadians with Disabilities, is better known for the Lattimer case and suing Via Rail and winning and our head office is in Winnipeg. So, yes, I do know about B.C. Transportation, I was in a taxi in Calgary last year. In Toronto, I paid $110 to go see the Blue Jays - the ticket was $37 but I paid $120 for a ticket; I'm a Blue Jays freak and that's okay. The tourism dollars in Toronto enjoyed that trip and that's okay. So those are the three fundamental organizations.
The Chairman of the NSCBTA is VickiLynn Spriggs - who used to run the Valley transportation system - and she asked the board to lay her off because they could not afford $30,000 a year - I'm not sure what her salary was - to keep her. She took the high road and put them in a good spot, she took two dispatchers and showed them the management side about paying the bills and that. Now their board, through the VON, Carol Ward, who became chairman, really had to get their hands into the governance model that's a hands-on working model. On some of these boards that's what they're doing. Their treasurer is paying the bills, he's the bookkeeper, volunteer and all of that stuff. So those are the four fundamental aspects.
MR. PARENT: I appreciate that. One last question, this touches upon the fact that without the volunteers we would be in desperate shape but Jen flags that if we rely solely on volunteers, then you have an uneven system. One of the ideas being floated in my area is that the Kings County Alternative Transportation would merge into Kings County Transportation. Do you see that as a good model or as a bad model? Is it better to have the alternative transportation societies as stand-alone agencies or as subcommittees of a larger transit system?
MR. ROBICHEAU: That's a loaded question but I think you're right, they'd be better off with a date, maybe an engagement, marriage, maybe. I think what would happen if that happened . . .
MR. PARENT: A civil union.
MR. ROBICHEAU: Yes, a civil union, the topic of the year. The civil union might happen in that there would be mutual respect. The service providers, the municipal councillors, the MLAs - you guys - at the end of the day society and your telephone is what
[Page 15]
decides what's happening and what the flavour is going on in the community. In Kings County it's a necessary service but is all society in Kings County convinced of that? Only through interdepartmental respect and that sort of stuff - they're writing big cheques for the Kings County system that dispatch would prevent duplication so there would be one. You don't book to Kings County, it's going on a fixed route. That's one thing we have to remember about this system, it's a door-to-door service. But the advantage to it, and Kings County Transportation goes to Weymouth, now. I called the manager only three weeks ago and he wondered why I called him.
Only 10 per cent of my market is wheelchairs; 90 per cent of our customers are not wheelchair users. That's something to keep in mind. Many of them are mentally challenged, use a cane, a walker, the blind can't drive the last time I checked. Many of them are Summer drivers and that's my mom and dad and maybe your parents, who don't drive when there is that little half inch of snow. It used to be, 10 years ago, when you cancelled your doctor's appointment, you had one the next day; now, it's four months from now. So, there's a lack of knowledge and awareness of what we do. The other advantage about that common law marriage is that that Dial-A-Ride system could service that line with able-bodied people and make it better, because they don't go to the door, we do. So that's why I called the manager three weeks ago to tell him and he was wondering why I was calling him. From Clare, I can service his Weymouth line and it can go to the Valley. So, a good point.
MS. POWLEY: I think one of the things you need to consider as well and this is something that has come up in Halifax is that able-bodied people sometimes don't understand some of the larger inclusion questions and the low-floor accessible buses which are great for some people with disabilities who can use them. Metro Transit, the most complaints they get about those buses is about the time it takes to strap down the people and the other issues regarding persons with disabilities. So if there is a merging of the systems, I think the public awareness needs to be kept in line as well and really talk about why things are happening the way they are.
MR. PARENT: Thank you very much. I think it was the Nova Scotia physiotherapists who were the ones to issue a challenge to all the MLAs in the province to spend a day in a wheelchair and it was one of the worst days of my life, I finally gave up. It was a manual wheelchair. I mean all these accessible ramps, try to go up one of these ramps by yourself and unless you're Hercules and can turn these wheels, I mean the incline, and if you get a little bit of snow on them and just going on sidewalks, you get caught in these little potholes and much less to speak about transportation and . . .
MR. ROBICHEAU: You have to be aware, too, the Nova Scotia Senior Citizens' Secretariat went around the province and they had I think 36 or 30 town hall meetings. We're going to go - 21 years from now, and I'll be caught in that baby boom that's going to turn 65 in the next 21 years - from 130,000 seniors over 65 to 260,000. This would be a rate of 17
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per cent, it goes up to 54 per cent over 65. So you can imagine the bell curve just going straight up like the 1980 stock market.
The point here is, what happens after 65? What are those numbers? They are cataract surgery, hip replacement, diabetes, not driving in the snow, so it's not just wheelchair. But accessibility is number one. It's the reason we started. From there we went into the senior population and now we're doing the economically disadvantaged. Then we looked around saying, no, we're the transport. People call us, well, I have a car. There is nothing in our brochure that says we check on that thing, oh, the person has a car, Cadillac, they don't drive in the winter and they've got a medical appointment, it's important today to make it.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: We've been joined by Russell MacKinnon.
MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Thank you, Madam Chairman. I do apologize for being a little late, I was late getting into town last night.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Next, we have Jerry Pye.
MR. JERRY PYE: Madam Chairman, I want to thank Claredon and Jen Powley for appearing as witnesses before the Standing Committee on Community Services. I think any time the disabled community can enlighten the committee or members of the Legislative Assembly or politicians as a whole on the plight of the disabled person, particularly around mobility and how important it is to have access to technical aids, how important it is to have access to transportation as a component of the same thing that everyone has, as a matter of fact, to enjoy the kind of lifestyles that all other citizens take for granted. Often, it troubles me because I watch the able-bodied individual who jumps into a disabled parking space and says, well, I'm only going to be there a minute and a disabled person is waiting for the space and they really don't care, so it's that kind of attitude that takes place.
My concerns are centred around the fact that we need to recognize that the accessibLe Transportation services that are out there don't only provide services to the disabled community, they provide services to the seniors, they provide services to Community Services and to other agencies out there in those communities primarily because they are the sole source of transportation. Most often the municipalities have not committed themselves to public transportation or reasonable public transportation even to their able-bodied citizen who need it. So it becomes a part of an agency to provide those kind of services.
Claredon, I don't know if you're aware of this or not but in 1995, through service exchange, when the province had taken over Community Services, there was a responsibility of the municipalities to take over public transportation and provide public transportation services. You had mentioned, with respect to Clare and you had mentioned that the Municipality of Clare, through its budget offers some $4,000 annually. Now, $4,000 I don't believe has changed within the last five or 10 years.
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MR. ROBICHEAU: And if we don't ask, we don't get it.
MR. PYE: And if you don't ask, you don't get it. Yet, it's a requirement and a responsibility of municipal government to provide those levels of services. So, No. 1, I would ask you, when was your last presentation to the Municipality of Clare; and No. 2, I would ask you as well, is there a ridership expectation of return if, in fact, the riders are expected to pay $2 a fee or whatever, how much of that return is to offset the operating cost and how much would you expect that to be? Would it be similar to public transportation services of the 60/40 rule, where 60 per cent comes from the fare box and 40 per cent is subsidized or whatever that case might be?
The other question, No. 3, would be, and maybe you can answer this, with respect to the ongoing operating cost of maintaining your insurance, your fuel costs, they have obviously significantly risen within the last three years, particularly around auto insurance, liability insurance, the likes of those and, of course, the increases in gasoline or diesel fuel, so there have been significant increases as a result of that. No. 4, have you asked the province with respect to its operating fund per capita of a $1.41 that, in fact, it offset for those less densely populated areas and increase the per capita operating cost to a $2 or whatever evaluation or assessments you have made and if, in fact, that's consistent? Also . . .
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Do you want to start answering some of those?
MR. PYE: He can gradually answer them after I've finished my minutes, Madam Chairman. Claredon, is quite capable of doing this.
MR. ROBICHEAU: I'm marking them down. I've got four, do you have four?
MR. PYE: Absolutely.
MR. ROBICHEAU: Okay, you want No. 5 now?
[10:00 a.m.]
MR. PYE: Also to Claredon and Jen, yes, as a matter of fact, with respect to the disabled population, we do know that the number is somewhere between 18 to 21 per cent of Nova Scotians who have varying degrees of disability. With respect to the disabled population that you serve and with respect to accessibLe Transportation and I know there have been some studies done across the province with respect to that, where the needs are. So, No. 5, can you tell me briefly where the needs are for accessibLe Transportation in other parts of Nova Scotia that really don't have the accessibLe Transportation services now? Madam Chairman, I should best leave it at that. I'll come back to do some more.
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MR. ROBICHEAU: Well, the good news is that out of five, I think I can answer three, so not bad. Let's keep in mind that in 1995, the service exchange, that it's a volunteer one under transportation, it is not mandatory for municipalities to provide a transportation service in their municipality, it's just a nice thing to do.
Some took ownership and I haven't said it in writing and maybe your researchers can dig up a little bit more in the legislative part of the Municipal Act but so far, quite a few of us have researched it a bit and found it to be a volunteer. If you can find that it is mandatory, phone me ASAP and we will knock on their doors more heavily with the Human Rights Commission and everybody else.
The right thing to do. I asked for $4,000 from the Municipality of Clare and they wrote an $8,000 cheque a year for two years. I'm going there two weeks from now, I just made the appointment for next week, realizing that we're starting to be a big business. We're doing 120,000 kilometres a year in Clare; that's an oil change a month, that's how busy the demand has gone up.
The good news on the Municipality of Clare. I really panicked in 2003, when I saw on the television, the local French TV channel, the Municipality of Clare meeting, when they wanted all charities to apply by an April 1st deadline or you missed the boat. What was happening was that municipalities were allowed 1 per cent or 2 per cent - I'm not sure - of charity dollars back to their community, it is 1 per cent or 2 per cent of their whole budget to give back to charities and that could be culture - La Baie en Joie, it could be art, or whatever. We fell into that, so I ran down to Little Brook and Jean Melanson who is the mayor and has been for many years and I gave him the thing and said, I mailed it. He phoned me three days later and said, why did you run that down so quickly? I said, the deadline was April 1st and he said, no, we forgot to tell you, last year we put your $4,000 in the infrastructure. I said, darn right! That's where we belong. We should be as respected just as the sewage, the sidewalks, just as an infrastructure of that municipality and I'm glad to be there. Now it's time to go there to say, make it bigger, that's for sure.
A guy who really made it count, Ron Levy, in CHAD, in 2003, we shared numbers in Pictou County - and you can imagine the dense population of Pictou, Stellarton, Trenton, all those five communities all around there - Stellarton is quite dense, he's got five big buses. They gave $82,000 to the Dial-A-Ride system down there in the municipalities. A little village like Trenton, $15,000 and some of them got $18,000. Pictou was something like $33,400 - that is a municipal commitment there.
Ron Levy couldn't be here today, he was invited, he's just out of hospital, he had pneumonia and he's doing better. He says he is earmarking $120,000 from the municipalities, he's going to see them. The Dial-A-Ride, for four long years, have had zero from the Town of Yarmouth. In the Valley the good news is the Trans County Transportation Society that
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has expanded up to Weymouth, four years of making great presentations like this, and more - zero. They just wrote a $14,000 cheque last week, so there's some. Question No. 2 . . .
MS. POWLEY: I think it's good to mention that in Pictou, one of the reasons they bought the thing was because they've moved it, it is now treated like fire services or something like that. The municipality gives money to the transportation system on a per capita basis, just like municipal fire services. I think that's a really huge commitment.
MR. ROBICHEAU: The other thing is in Pictou, they had a transportation system, a few buses going around. When they gave that up, that's when it was born, in 1996, but they went with the wheelchair model and CHAD, an affiliate of NSLEO, which is why we're so involved, meeting after meeting, four or five of our affiliates got involved in transportation.
MS. POWLEY: I think it's also important to mention that the NSCBTA has made it as one of its goals to encourage people to do presentations to their municipal governments. As well, NSLEO, through our affiliates, as a provincial organization, we step back and let the municipal groups handle that, so it has been recognized.
MR. ROBICHEAU: We hope in October to make a half-hour presentation at the Nova Scotia Union of Municipalities, that's where we need to go. The 60/40 per cent, I think most of us are close to that formula and even better as far as fares - it is $2.50 one way in Clare; $5, $10 return trips. When it comes to efficiency, it's when you can go to the Yarmouth Regional Hospital and bring three seniors shopping, all in the same trip. With time you get into efficiencies of dispatching and I will check that number to see how we exactly fall. I think that would be a good question for the administrator of the program, to figure out, he probably has that to the dime.
MR. PYE: There is another reason for asking that question and it's for the number of individuals who may not be able to afford it because of the ridership fee.
MR. ROBICHEAU: I don't think the ridership fee is a barrier, I think it is pretty modest. Some of us have been cheating in that we get the $2,000 a year from the Lions Club and this and that and we'll say, we'll bill the Lions Club. The Municipality of Clare asked me that when we got on the road. If a single parent calls you and says, I have $10 to buy milk and bread, can you do the trip for nothing and I say, yes, we will. There is the Lions Club, the Legion and Knights of Columbus and that's the manager's decision and we take it from there. There's some loss on trips, but it's the right thing to do and we are there.
MS. POWLEY: That 60/40 split you mentioned, is that for regular transit?
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MR. PYE: I don't know if it still exists but it was a formula used during my time serving on the public transportation committee when, in fact, it was through the Metropolitan Authority. The 40 per cent through the fare box was covered by the rider and the other 60 per cent by the municipality and the province.
MR. ROBICHEAU: I would say that we're less than 40 per cent.
MR. PYE: It's usually a basic formula that's set out by transportation in order to provide route services.
MS. POWLEY: I don't think Access-A-Bus - even Halifax's system - comes anywhere near the 60/40 split.
MR. PYE: No, because they're trying to make it a user pay concept so it's now 90/30 and 110 per cent, it varies all over the board.
MR. ROBICHEAU: No. 3, fuel and insurance. Yes, it has been a hardship. Across the board in Nova Scotia, all eight services, a 72 per cent increase in insurance costs. Some of it is a little tricky where you could lower the 72 per cent by a bit, by better insurance. All of them have officers and direct reliability. For three years some of them risked not having it. They shouldn't have. I've had Le Transport de Clare from the get-go. As a volunteer, did not want to lose my house and all this stuff. That's usually $1,000 a head. Insurance had a 50 per cent increase, most definitely. Fuel cost, 54 per cent increase. Le Transport de Clare in the last four years, because of adding another vehicle on the road - because four years ago we only had one and now we're two - I've had a 212 per cent increase but I've got a second vehicle in there, so numbers can be deceiving on that.
Are we suffering? Like I said, nine years ago, who would have guessed gasoline would have been $1 a litre. Our fuel bill last year was $21,000. That's what Le Transport de Clare paid in gas last year, $21,000.
If I may give you a number and then I can move on to your provincial number, to give you a concept of the Dial-A-Ride versus HRM Access-A-Bus, the HRM Access-A-Bus, last year, made 700,000 kilometres in HRM. We made 2 million kilometres, to give you a perspective. They made 120,000 passenger trips, we made 90,000. Not bad, not shoddy.
So HRM, who's got a $2 million budget, made 120,000 passenger trips and we made 90,000. They made 700,000 kilometres and we did 2 million kilometres. We estimated around, almost $300,000 in fuel that we burned last year.
Province. Yes. Jerry, we have, in the last three years, NSLEO, with the support of the service providers backing this up that at $1.41 per capita, we are starving. Starving not only in operations but capital. At the end of the day, you're stealing from your capital and putting
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it in your gas tank. We were very disappointed last year with the provincial budget, Jerry. The last one, about a 17 per cent need in Nova Scotia; Amherst-Springfield area, a desperate need; Lunenburg County, not covered; all of Cape Breton, not covered; Richmond County, one of our affiliates and a literacy council is going to join them. We hope, in two years from now, it will be on the radar now not covered. Brand new, February 1st is Stewiacke and that area; February 1st just launched. Geographically, only half of Nova Scotia is being covered and that excludes HRM and Sydney.
MS. POWLEY: Okay. I think the question of need, also, just because there is a service in place doesn't mean the need is adequately met. I would say that in Halifax, although it's a little different, the needs are not being met. Having to book two weeks in advance, certainly, your need is not being met and I know many people who just give up. In terms of even the number of requests that are met, you also have to look at the fact, are people even trying to or do people have a defeatist attitude? They know they're not going to be able to get the trip anyhow so they just don't even - it doesn't even enter their mind to think that, you know what, I could leave the house. There are a lot of people who just don't think they can so they don't even bother.
MR. ROBICHEAU: On the needs, too, let's talk about the unmet needs, if I may, Madam Chairman, for a second. I think it's important to know we're not on the road weekends and evenings, and yet, we have never refused a wheelchair, even Christmas Eve, okay? But we're not on the road evenings and weekends. That bothers me. It bothers me that we have a Health Promotion Minister now and we should be on the road on Tuesday nights, bringing people to the smoke cessation program, where they give the free patch. We should be on the road on that Tuesday night but we don't have the capacity.
[10:15 a.m.]
Church is very important with an aging population, very, very important. We are not on the road on Sundays. For some of these people, church is just as equally important as going grocery shopping or going to the doctor. It is a mental health thing and I respect all sorts of religions of any kind. I'm non-practising but I have had phone calls where they wanted to go and it would be a good PR thing to do, and we can't do it.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, I'm just going to give an update on the speakers' list. I appreciate your patience but a lot of good information is coming out of these questions. I will be a little more strict on the second round. Gary is next, then Gordie, then Russell, and then we're going to start the second round of questions. I've got Stephen, Jerry with Question No. 6, and Mark. So, Gary.
MR. GARY HINES: Madam Chairman, I'm going to relinquish my time for Mr. Parent to make an important statement, if I can.
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MR. PARENT: No, I think I would like to - if you're willing to accept a motion, I would like to move that we, as a committee, support the request to increase the funding from $1.40 per capita to $1.60.
MR. ROBICHEAU: $1.41 per capita.
MR. PARENT: $1.41 per capita to $1.60. Now, do you want the motion now or do you want to leave it until the end of the meeting?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Well, let me just check. Do you want to hear the first round of questions or would you like to take the motion now?
MR. ROBICHEAU: We'll get it later.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, let's finish the first round of questions, then everybody has had an equal chance to get information on the table. So, Gary, did you want to. . .
MR. HINES: I just have one issue that I want to deal with.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Sure.
MR. HINES: First, I want to thank you for coming in, both of you. Claredon, I think that you have hit the nail right on the head in your efforts to go forward over the number of years you've been involved. Number one, you established a business plan and you knew where you wanted to get to. I think that's important, regardless of what you're doing. You've done that well. Number two, I think you have done a good job with the corporate aspect. I know there is only one level of government that has any money and that's the feds. I know that in trying to get support for other issues in my area, I've gone to corporate, because corporate do have budgets and you have done that well in your area, despite the fact you're not in an area that has big corporations. But you've done that well.
One thing you did make a statement on was directors insurance?
MR. ROBICHEAU: Yes.
MR. HINES: I think you'll find there was an Act passed last session of the Legislature that non-profit organizations are exempt from the requirement of directors insurance.
MR. ROBICHEAU: It's not worth the paper it's written on.
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MR. HINES: Is that right? I'm glad to know that because that's something we can pursue.
MR. ROBICHEAU: Our legal and their legal said, cover yourself, and we did and it's not worth the paper. It might be good for the bake sales on the side of the street . . .
MR. HINES: Well, I know a couple of organizations I belong to, provincially, we have gone to our lawyers and our lawyers told us not to carry the insurance and we haven't. One was the Wastewater Nova Scotia, which deals with unsightly sewage issues which are very contentious in this day and age with water pollution and so on. We have taken their advice and we have dropped our directors insurance because they say that - so it may be a lawyer's opinion. I don't know that. But it's something that you could look into and I intend to look into.
MR. ROBICHEAU: It would be like the U.S. model of the Good Samaritan Act, once you're down and dirty in lawsuits of up to a couple of million dollars. The first case scenario might be there and when that happens, then we might be left gun shy because we haven't heard of a volunteer claim since that Act, so who am I to judge that? I'm not a lawyer but who's repossessed a few houses, and like that? But anyhow.
MS. POWLEY: When did you say it came into effect?
MR. ROBICHEAU: Last session of the Legislature.
MR. HINES: I think it was the last session of the Legislature. I'm not sure what the bill number was but I know that we looked into it.
MR. ROBICHEAU: Yes, I've got it home and I've read it carefully.
MR. HINES: I appreciate that.
MR. ROBICHEAU: There may be a little boy scouts stuff in there. (Laughter)
MR. HINES: The other thing I would like to do, I would like to support Stephen's initial pursuit of the issue of not having budgets all being spent and can you carry them over. Well, the general agreement on Generally Accepted Accounting Principles doesn't allow us to do that. However, I agree with Stephen, that it is something that we, as a government, should pursue to find out why you can't access that full amount under some of your programs that you might be looking at. Anyway, those are just some statements that I wanted to make.
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MR. ROBICHEAU: It's a good point. Your last point is well taken. Is it at budget time that we realize we are broke or is it the middle of the year and try to shuffle that around. I know we have MRIs and CAT Scanners to buy in hospitals and doctors to pay but when the writing is on the wall and we have to wait a year and then that budget comes around and it is not there, it hurts. Then we have to realize the capacity, that there are 10 counties not covered and what happens if they come on board?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Gordie.
MR. GORDON GOSSE: Thank you, Claredon and Jen, for coming in today. I did like your comment, it's not worth the paper it's written on because I spent many years myself in a non-profit organization and I know what it's like not to have director liability insurance and my colleague from Cape Breton across would know what happened in Louisbourg when they were on the hook for $12,000 each as directors. So you are absolutely right. I wouldn't take a chance of counting on that bill. (Interruption) Absolutely. We know how the insurance market is anyway. They made $4 billion, so they are quite happy.
I just have a thing to do with the Dial-A-Ride Program. We don't have that in Cape Breton. We don't have any of that in Cape Breton. We have the Handi-Trans. I imagine you are familiar with that system.
MR. ROBICHEAU: Yes.
MR. GOSSE: Myself, as a provincial politician, I do get phone calls on its inadequate service. There may be enough buses but not enough drivers, some of those things. There are nine counties that are being served now. None of them are in Cape Breton. I don't know if it's because people just don't come forward as volunteers. I really wish I could put a thing on that but I do know the Handi-Trans system. I have had many dealings with Mike MacKeigan, the Manager, supervisor Bernie Steele, and the drivers themselves in Cape Breton on some of the issues of on the weekends or something, or trying to make Valentine's Day dances as they just had recently or weren't being able to make doctors' appointments and different things.
Municipal council, I guess it goes back to the service exchange program in 1995. The first thing that they blame it on is, well, the province is not giving us equalization. If you went to a council meeting in the CBRM, just as of the other day, it is always the province is not giving us equalization or whether they don't have enough toilet paper in the washrooms in the CBRM, it's always the province's fault no matter what happens in there.
So, again, if I was to approach the CBRM at home in the municipality, they would say, well, it's because of the equalization. We can't afford to, our Handi-Trans system is because we are not receiving enough money from the province. It's always like that no matter what the issue is. I think Councillor Vince Hall had quoted a nip and tuck, I guess, sort of
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thing. It was in the newspaper down there and the last article was on what they were going to cut this Summer. They were going to cut the hours of the Handi-Trans in Cape Breton. Summer hours which meant a lot of activities during the tourist season that these people with disabilities would be unable to attend - whether it be down at the Marine Terminal, whether it be down at Valentine's dances - they would not be able to go because they were going to cut it and, again, everything seems to come back, it is always the province's fault, no matter what happens to equalization, the service exchange program in 1995, so it is always the province's fault no matter what you do. If I was to question them, and I did send letters off to the manager of the Handi-Trans, asking him some questions but again it always reverts back to council saying that we don't receive enough money in equalization. I keep repeating that because as a politician in Cape Breton, that's the theme that they sing all the time, whether it's the CBRM incinerator or this and that. It always is, on questions of the Handi-Trans, which is very important.
I have two homes across the street from me that are community service homes that are wheelchair accessible that were built 10 years ago so I do know the system and I do know even the drivers. But like I said, not enough drivers, not enough funding and they are looking at cutting the transit system in Cape Breton, both Handi-Trans and the other system. It's not a profit-making system. So, I applaud your organization for all that you have done. Are you sure you wouldn't want to move to Cape Breton and start something there if you had a chance, Claredon, because there are a lot of people with disabilities in Cape Breton who sure could use the service that you are providing?
MR. ROBICHEAU: We are going to start in Richmond County.
MR. GOSSE: Okay, great. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
MR. ROBICHEAU: What your municipality is missing is a couple of points and that is in economic development. It is not just only the nice thing to do as far as bringing people to whatever appointment they have. For example, I flag this around and this is the ChronicleHerald, May 2004, your municipal councillors need to know that a survey, a person with muscular dystrophy came here in 2004 and made the paper. They couldn't believe how inaccessible Nova Scotia was, including Cape Breton. There are $31 billion U.S. of disability tourist dollars that can come to Canada and it's your municipality's attitude, saying we don't want that business. That's what they are saying, we don't want that business.
MS. POWLEY: It's as fundamental as being able to get a taxi from the airport to Halifax.
MR. ROBICHEAU: Or the Cape Breton airport to Port Hawkesbury or whatever. The other thing, I put that Tideview display up there, you open the paper and you have all these long-term care facilities with these buses and vans and some of them are getting very old and some of them are 1985 or 1990 and guess what, some of them tapped on that grant that was
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federal. What is happening is some of them, for example, the Digby story, they were going to fundraise $64,000 for that long-term care facility to service their clients. I phoned the Digby Courier and said it's the wrong thing to do. Why not partake with the Dial-A-Ride system and go halfway and then your clients will be served and also the community.
What has happened, also, is if you checked in your community, some of those long-term care facilities got grants 10 years ago and signed a contract with federal and provincial that they would service your local area and I bet you in the fine print it is there. What they did was say, well we want a $400 damage deposit, the driver has to be our driver, not yours, because of liability, so they have all these barriers to make an excuse.
The Villa Acadienne in Meteghan has a 1985 bus. It has 32,000 kilometres on it. In their heyday they used to go to P.E.I. for a weekend but now with the long-term care facilities and a better home care system, in a way and not for others, because it's a very acute medical model, those people are very old, fragile and sick in the long-term care facilities. So they are not going to P.E.I. and White Point Beach for a weekend anymore. So that might be an area where I think the Municipality of Cape Breton and you imagine Inverness County, that big, huge area, you are going to have to look at Cheticamp, go to a long-term care facility and say we need to partner, just like our friend from Kings County said, merge with another system, and that has been done. Yarmouth did it well when they started in Yarmouth, they looked at three long-term and they rented their buses until they got themselves on the road and the rest is attitude, attitude and attitude. Thank you.
MR. GOSSE: The attitude of the supervisor sometimes is a problem when a supervisor says to the parent of a disabled person that they will have to live with that. Well they live with that disability their whole lives.
MR. ROBICHEAU: They are costing the system and what about the social impacts on top of that? For every one person with disability, there are three cousins, one mom, two brothers, two sisters and it just . . .
MS. POWLEY: In fact, they live with medical conditions or they live with a disability, but they don't need to be handicapped by it. That's what we are doing, is that people who have a medical condition or certain physical things, the lack of transportation, lack of services, it handicaps them. It's not the condition itself, it's the province's, society's and the municipality's willingness to do that extra little piece and that's what is distressing and that is where attitude comes in.
MR. ROBICHEAU: Community health boards would be another avenue to tap doors as far as volunteers and the willingness to do it and the VON would be an avenue. We have the road map, it's all on our computers, willing to give them another pint of blood.
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MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, I will invite Russell to finish off the first round of speakers.
MR. MACKINNON: Madam Chairman, just quickly on the point made by my colleague on exchange of services in Cape Breton, I think the public record will show that seven out of eight municipalities voted for that and all but one provincial politician voted for it. However, I think what we are hearing here today is that the provincial government, maybe in concert with certain municipalities, has allowed rural Nova Scotia to be marginalized in the service. Am I correct?
MR. ROBICHEAU: Correct.
[10:30 a.m.]
MR. MACKINNON: The issue of insurance, the 72 per cent increase, you have indicated that is, essentially, the increase over the last year or two. The provincial government recently made an announcement that it was going to make a commitment to provide some relief to certain community organizations, volunteer fire departments, that sort of thing. Have they spoken with your organization and given any undertaking that they will provide some relief?
MR. ROBICHEAU: No.
MR. MACKINNON: I understand that, generally, with these types of social issues, which every one of us is affected by one way or the other - and I was particularly taken with your point about going to church. I know, in my constituency, for example, out in Gabarus, there is one particular church organization that has been trying for two years - they had been given an undertaking two years ago that they were going to receive, I think, $1,500 to put in a ramp so some of the seniors who cannot get up the steps of the church would be able to access that. For whatever reason, that has not materialized. I can point to at least three other facilities in my constituency of a similar nature. It's a little easier when you're in an urban core because you could probably go to another church two blocks away that has that type of accessibility. It's much easier in urban Nova Scotia.
Federal-provincial agreements. Are there any federal-provincial agreements where the province has been provided money by the federal government that could address some of this particular issue and that, for whatever reason, it has not?
MR. ROBICHEAU: In 1990, there were two cheques written. One was for Air Canada, taxis and Acadian Lines. It was a very big chunk of money. Some of these . . .
MR. MACKINNON: Where did it come from and where did it go?
[Page 28]
MR. ROBICHEAU: Federal. It was mostly, like, an 80/20 per cent agreement. Some even bought the whole bus, not just the lift. Like, they really hoarded the whole thing. On the rural Canada aspect, from 1990 to 1995, there was a $5 million commitment and it was $1 million a year. Ontario didn't get it all. It was $100,000 per province. It was equal. Rural Ontario, rural Nova Scotia, it didn't matter. So that allowed, in Nova Scotia, for four $25,000 capital grants. They were capital only, they weren't operating.
In 1995, it was sunsetted and the people from organizations like us, and others, made a little roar. But we didn't know, in 1995, what we would be doing now as far as the importance of what we do. We thought we were minor as far as - we knew we were important, we knew the hardships we were doing but I think, in 1995, we taught ourselves that's a basic infrastructure of our municipality. We didn't think that mentality.
Unfortunately, it was sunsetted in 1995 and right now, the other caveat to our national group is, we need to hear from Vancouver to Newfoundland to get that money back in there. It's necessary and they've got tons of money . . .
MR. MACKINNON: Maybe for the sake of time, through you, Madam Chairman, to Claredon, are there any federal-provincial agreements, presently, that will address . . .
MR. ROBICHEAU: No.
MR. MACKINNON: Has the provincial government consulted with your organization in a collaborative effort to open dialogue or put pressure on the federal government to bring this back . . .
MR. ROBICHEAU: Yes.
MR. MACKINNON: What specifics can you provide, without . . .
MR. ROBICHEAU: The specifics are John Hamm, our current Premier, is willing to write to Ottawa, to the Department of Transport - which is where it was and where it belongs - a letter to say, we need a sunrise on this program. That's quite significant.
MR. MACKINNON: Through you, Madam Chairman, with all due respect, that is not good enough. I can write a letter, you can write a letter. It's quite a different thing when the Minister responsible for the Disabled Persons' Commission will not only get on the phone, but travel, or ask his or her federal counterpart to sit down in dialogue. You know, very well, the difference.
MR. ROBICHEAU: That letter will just get a little polite response.
[Page 29]
MR. MACKINNON: Yes, File 13. So, in other words, at this point, there is nothing beyond the promise of a letter to address this issue, am I correct?
MR. ROBICHEAU: Correct.
MR. MACKINNON: Okay, thank you.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, now I'm conscious that we have a number of things left to do in the last 25 minutes. We have the proposed motion to put on the floor and to discuss, we have the second round of questioning, we have a little bit of committee business at the end and we also want to leave time for our presenters to wrap up. So what's the feeling of the committee members? Do you want to deal with that motion now? We have finished the first round of questions.
MR. PARENT: I'm quite willing to leave it to the end if that's what people want. I would like to have the privilege of making the motion, though.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Sure. in the second round of questions - and I will ask people to be more succinct than in the first round - I have Stephen, Jerry and then Mark.
MR. MCNEIL: Thank you, Madam Chairman. I want to make a point which has been made a couple of times today and that is around the alternative transportation service that is happening in Annapolis County, the TCTS. It is not just a service that is provided for people with disabilities in the County of Annapolis and surrounding area. There are many people in my constituency who are isolated for all kinds of reasons who use this service who are able-bodied, to bring them in to Kings Transit, which goes through my constituency. So it is not just a service that is being used by people with disabilities throughout the riding of Annapolis. They have not distinguished that and have provided a great service.
Around the eight organizations that are in the province now, is there a geographical boundary that they - is it county by county, is it . . .
MR. ROBICHEAU: It's a geographic area determined by themselves in - Municipal Affairs can only fund one region. Annapolis County expanded to the borders of Weymouth and gladly so. Shelburne County . . .
MR. MCNEIL: One of the problems, though, Claredon, that has happened with TCTS, Trans County Transportation, is that we are servicing the western end of Kings County, the Kingston-Greenwood area, which is . . .
MR. ROBICHEAU: And you gained a chunk of that piece.
[Page 30]
MR. MCNEIL: We have, through a hard-fought struggle for that money. One of the reasons that it is being serviced by the TCTS is because many of the constituents who live in the western end of Kings County have doctors and go to the community hospital in Middleton. Many of the services that they are looking for is to bring them into the County of Annapolis.
I know sometimes it's difficult for the government to realize the boundary of a county is not where everything stops - there are people who move beyond those counties, that we need to begin to look at moving that geographical area outside of, for example, Kings County which was getting all that funding and not providing the full service, when TCTS was providing the service and not getting the funding and was putting an undue hardship on the County of Annapolis. I think that's one thing that needs to be looked at and cautioned. I would just add that.
MR. ROBICHEAU: Very factual, what you're saying, and that's why NSLEO in our position paper, asked that $20,000 be added to the piece of the pie to release some of those hardships. That's in our recommendations.
MR. MCNEIL: Because what happens is, you end up getting a service that can be provided - you know, people, for financial reasons, they say, well, there's a densely-populated part of my area. Well, that's where I'm going to provide the service and, unfortunately, I can't do it elsewhere. It was being picked up by us.
MR. ROBICHEAU: Absolutely.
MR. MCNEIL: Thank you.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Jerry.
MR. PYE: Madam Chairman, I just want to say how appalling I find it when, in fact, there is a taking away of services to persons with disabilities and the persons with disabilities who have been receiving the services have to wait until there has been a study, a report, or something has gone forward.
For example, in Kentville, with respect to, I believe it was the Kings County Alternative Transportation Services Society, where the Executive Director mismanaged and misappropriated funds, 150 rides immediately after that were cancelled, much the same as in Halifax, where the taxi services pulled off and the disabled people were left on their own. Instead of having emergency funds set aside or something to address the immediate issue for the short term until once again you look at the long-term issue, it was just simply a slight to the disabled community by not addressing that very issue. As a matter of fact, I think the Kings County Alternative Transportation Services Society is still recovering from that
[Page 31]
particular problem, much the same as the Halifax Regional Municipality is recovering from that.
I think it's time that we urge government - all of us, both the government side and in Opposition - to give a serious look at the services it provides to disabled persons to make them a part of a community and make them have access to the community that we normally take for granted. That's one comment I wanted to say.
I also want to say that the disabled community has talked a lot about this issue but has not really put a whole lot of energy into it and I think there needs to be some energy put into this issue and that's the issue around full-service service stations. As you know, many service stations throughout the municipality are going to self-serve, reducing the full service. Even though we, in the disabled community, are prepared to pay those extra pennies to have that service, they're cutting that service away from us. If it was any other segment of society that was treated - any visible minority - with not having access to services in their community, there would be absolute hell to pay.
When there is a reduction in gasoline services, two people at that service station and it's a self-serve, the disabled community has no access to it. Contest or whatever it may be, they're told to go down the road and find a full-serve service station, and we accept that as a society. No one else would be allowed to have that accepted.
I don't know what your position is on that but I do know in parts of Cape Breton, disabled people travel 40 miles, and it's embarrassing that you cannot be self-sufficient and independent yourself but you have to wait until your brother, your mother, or your sister comes home to take your car up to the service station to fill it. What a way to live, but yet we allow it to happen. We will address the sods at the municipal level, we will address all kinds of uses, but we will not address the consumer side to that and we are consumers in the community. I just wanted to know your impression and your feelings on that - forgive me for getting a bit emotional but nonetheless, I think it's a very real, personal thing and it's a true slap in the face.
It's not only to disabled people but it's to seniors, single moms and a whole host. It has been brought to our attention by Veterans Affairs, it has been brought to our attention by the Disabled Persons' Commission of Nova Scotia, and it has been brought to our attention by a number of organizations in the community as well, yet we tend not to pay attention to it. My question to you is, how do you further elaborate on that?
MS. POWLEY: I know that there has been a letter written to the Utility and Review Board. The response has been that if a person with a disability calls the service station ahead of time, that if there are two employees working at that time, they will be served. I believe putting a disability sign in your window or something will signal to the attendant that you do
[Page 32]
need service and that has kind of been what the Utility and Review Board has told us is the solution.
MR. ROBICHEAU: Very piecemeal, just like the rest of it, very in-box, piecemeal solutions and again, it's unfair, not right. Would you like to come here today smelling like gas or diesel if you had to fuel up so as a consumer, you need a choice. These self-serve gas stations - we're accepting now that 87 cents a litre is cheap. Five years ago we would have been roaring to say that's stealing. Now, when you hit the dollar mark, you think 87 cents is cheap. Self-serve or not, they're robbing us blind and probably just like the insurance thing, wait until the quarterly profits of these oil corporations come out, it's just going to be like the insurance, it's going to be unbelievable.
MR. PYE: Finally, to Jen Powley, I sent you via e-mail some of my suggestions with respect to HRM's addressing of the disabled issues: sidewalks, transportation and things like that. Thank you.
[10:45 a.m.]
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Just a quick question from Russell and then we'll let Mark close off the second round.
MR. MACKINNON: Because of the question that was asked by my colleague, the member for Dartmouth North, it's public record that the provincial government is subsidizing these self-serve organizations, for example, the one in Pictou County, the new one up on the hill going in. They purchased the land, they provided I don't know how many tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to allow that organization to get up and running. That is only one of at least, I think, four possible examples in the province where the provincial government is ignoring the very issue that you're talking about.
It's one thing to write a letter to Ottawa and not even know if it's going to get there or go in File 13 is quite another, to make some substantive decisions that affect people like yourselves.
In closing, Madam Chairman, quickly, I was looking at the spreadsheet for the community program infrastructure. I noticed here the Mira Boat Club, which is in my constituency. Just recently there was an announcement of almost $900,000 to upgrade that facility. When we were in government I think we invested over $60,000 and then they received more money here for a ramp, which is great, but you can't get money for ramps to send people to go to church. You're talking about . . .
MR. ROBICHEAU: How do you bring them there?
[Page 33]
MR. MACKINNON: Exactly. There's something askew here and I thought I should put that on the public record.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: You've made the point and I think we'll now move over to Mark. Do you have a question or do you just want to make your motion?
MR. PARENT: I'd like to make a statement. You're probably both aware - and I assume that all Rotary Clubs across the province adopt this - that the Kentville Area Rotary Club has a Persons with Disabilities Committee and most of our charitable money goes to persons with disabilities. I assume that other Rotary Clubs, you mentioned the Lions Clubs and the support they give but I don't know if that's common practice for Rotary Clubs to focus on persons with disabilities, but our club has put literally tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars into the hands of various people for scooters, and making apartments and bathrooms accessible to the handicapped.
MR. ROBICHEAU: The blind, the visually impaired.
MR. PARENT: So I really wanted to get that into the record because I know the Kentville Rotary Club members work very hard and a lot of money goes into that. Having said that, yes, I'd like to . . .
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, Mark. Before you make your motion I've had two people indicate they want to ask quick questions before you move that. Thank you for your patience. I have Gordie and then Bill.
MR. GOSSE: To my colleague from Cape Breton and Mr. Pye, who were asking about Veterans Affairs, I thought the Veterans Affairs Committee sent a letter away that if they were going to build the new gas stop in the Cobequid Pass and if there were any provincial dollars going into that gas stop, that they would make sure there was a full-service pump at that facility. I'm just trying to find it; maybe Bill Langille would know.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, Bill.
MR. WILLIAM LANGILLE: I know the Provincial Command of the Royal Canadian Legion, this is a very sore point with them and with me, also. I brought up the one about the Irving at the Westville turnoff in Pictou County and also this new one and I tried to make sure it was full-serve in the new one off the Cobequid Pass. Actually, I was working with my colleague in his riding, the Honourable Murray Scott, on that.
Anyway, we wrote letters to Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations at that time whose jurisdiction it falls under. We received letters back and I don't want to quote verbatim what it said because I might not be right; however, I can tell you that the gasoline retailers said they would supply service at a self-service station if the need be. As for the
[Page 34]
other ones, it was my contention that on our highways - and not just for local people but we have tourists travelling through, too, and they don't know where your self-service is, as compared to a full service. I wanted all the service stations on our 100-Series Highways to be full serve.
We didn't get it. It's been very frustrating for myself, as well as other people on the committees that we serve, for the people of Nova Scotia, but we seem to be running into road blocks with the Retail Gasoline Dealers Association on this issue. I just wanted to allude to that because I am still frustrated.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Okay, back to Mark for the motion.
MR. PARENT: I welcome any help from representatives to fine-tune this motion but it is moved that this committee support the request of the Nova Scotia League for Equal Opportunities to increase funding for accessibLe Transportation from $1.41 to $1.60 per capita and that we write letters to the appropriate ministers or departments indicating such. Now, if you want to fine-tune that.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Do we have a seconder, first of all?
MR. HINES: I'll second it.
MS. POWLEY: I was wondering if it's possible to add that review clause. I mean, that's great, but if it's 2012 and we're still out $1.60, then it might - I don't know if you can do that but if it's possible. . .
MR. PARENT: I think there would be an escalation clause. I'm willing to ask but if you ask for more than what you hope to get but. . .
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Jerry?
MR. PYE: Madam Chairman, that's my concern, as well, when and how did we arrive at the number of $1.60 from $1.41 and is that specifically designed for the Municipality of Clare, or was it looked at throughout the province? If, in fact, there needs to be an escalating cost, maybe the costs are more. Then we need to know if the number that we're presenting in the motion is a realistic number with respect to providing the service.
MR. PARENT: This is the Community Transportation Assistance Program and it's a provincial program.
[Page 35]
MR. PYE: That's right.
MR. ROBICHEAU: Yes. The $1.60 is just the CTAP, the operating part of it. What would be lacking from your motion is the capital funding, the seed funding, the research funding. The 2001 dollar which was the original $0.5 million has shrunk now to $397,000.
MR. PYE: Yes.
MR. MCNEIL: That is what my question was around. Do you have any idea what the 19-cent increase is - how much that's going to cost? We have $0.5 million on the table. If this is only going to increase another $20,000, presently, there is only. . .
MR. PARENT: The $0.5 million has shrunk, as Claredon said . . .
MR. MCNEIL: That is exactly right, $397,000-some, so if your motion is only going to bring us up to $415,000 . . .
MR. PARENT: No.
MR. MCNEIL: Let's put it all on the table. Let's ask for the whole $500,000 to be used right now for the eight counties. . .
MR. PARENT: No, this would be on top of the $500,000?
MR. MCNEIL: No. That's how the $500,000 is divided.
MR. PARENT: Okay, well, let's fine-tune the motion. The $500,000, as we say, has shrunk and it has caused a severe problem for the Kings County Alternative Transportation Services Society. So let's fine-tune.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, it seems from the initial presentations that there are actually three recommendations. One was increasing the operating formula from $1.41 to $1.60; the other was about making capital grants available; and the third was about an operating grant, a sort of extra subsidy for small market or low-density population areas. So at the moment, the motion on the table is only concerned with the formula and that only impacts on the rural municipalities, is my understanding.
MR. ROBICHEAU: Yes. If you look at the last page of the NSLEO position paper, the motion you are looking at is the $436,487.
[Page 36]
MR. PYE: That's right.
MR. ROBICHEAU: They've reduced the capital funding portion from $50,000 to $20,000. We're saying, you're not even scraping the tip of the iceberg. Let's make it $60,000, low population. There's no allowance for a start-up. Start-ups not only have to buy a van, they have to buy a phone, they have to buy insurance, fill the gas tank, pay the insurance before they're on the road. So that's there. A workshop, which is annually - and we appreciate that. The research grant does exist. Appalling. See the $3,000 plates? That's in there.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, I'm just going to interrupt you, Claredon. I think all our caucuses have had the presentation from NSLEO.
MR. ROBICHEAU: Yes, they have for the last few days.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay. I think we have all seen the recommendations. I think there are - how many - four. Yes. And the last one was on collaboration, working in partnership. I am just wondering, Mark, if you would be interested in, perhaps, withdrawing your motion. Would there be committee interest in putting the four recommendations as a package on the table and dealing with a more comprehensive approach, or do you want to deal with it . . .
MR. PARENT: Why don't we add it into the motion you've mentioned, the $1.41 to $1.60.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay. (Interruptions)
MR. PYE: Yes. Just put all four recommendations into the motion, absolutely.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is the seconder agreeable?
MR. HINES: Yes.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay. So that's the motion on the table for discussion. Any discussion?
MR. MCNEIL: I want to make sure that the $500,000, although not being used, is budgeted, will be used . . .
MR. PYE: It's actually more than that, according to the recommendation.
MR. MCNEIL: Okay, that's fine, that's great.
[Page 37]
MR. ROBICHEAU: The $554,000, divided by - and if it's $1.61, $1.62, or $1.75 - don't get stuck on the $1.61 . . .
MR. MCNEIL: Right.
MR. ROBICHEAU: Divide it accordingly.
MR. MCNEIL: Right, correct.
MS. POWLEY: And then increase that when more people come on board.
MR. ROBICHEAU: Exactly. Let's talk about blank cheques here. We all want a balanced budget in the future, 100 years. We looked at - what does this mean long-term, and if the 10 counties are covered, it's an extra $220,000 above this. It's not $2 million or all zeros. That's beyond the operating side. Long-term and five years from now, we are not looking at millions here. Thank you.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay. I will accept one more person on the discussion.
MR. PYE: Based on the thought of MLA Mr. McNeil, it is that, in fact, there is already a statement. There is $540,000 and that is part of the recommendation. That means that we are going to have to convince government to spend that because we passed the motion here at the standing committee.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: So are you ready for the question? The motion is to accept the four recommendations presented by LEO. Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. GOSSE: I don't have any abstentions but I just wondered, does this cover the Cape Breton Regional Municipality?
MR. ROBICHEAU: No, but it goes back into as grout for the 10 counties that are not covered to allow the budget to not be handcuffed, to expand as we go.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: It allows for the potential of expansion in those areas that are not currently served.
MR. ROBICHEAU: Right now, that start-up grant of $15,000, that county would have something we never had, a $15,000 extra start-up funding, which would be great.
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MR. GOSSE: Core funding.
MR. ROBICHEAU: Core funding, to start the first day on the road.
MR. GOSSE: Thank you, Madam Chairman.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Claredon and Jen, this is quite unusual, but I'm wondering. Since I think this topic has been very well discussed during the meeting, would you consider foregoing any closing remarks in order to keep us on time?
MR. ROBICHEAU: Yes.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
MR. ROBICHEAU: We know you have our e-mails and phone numbers.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Great.
MR. ROBICHEAU: We appreciate that.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Did you shake your head, Jen?
MS. POWLEY: That's fine. As long as I have an opportunity to thank you all.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Well, we want to thank you and we want to congratulate LEO on its 25 years of service in our province. We want to thank the two of you for your personal leadership on this and many other issues. It's much appreciated. We thank you for coming today.
Just before we close, I want to tell the members, or suggest to the members, I'm not sure if everyone is aware of the time involved in this afternoon's Forum on Family Violence, the continuation of it in the Red Chamber. From 1:00 to 3:30 we are going to be hearing the witnesses from the various departments and agencies and then from 3:30 to 4:00, there will be a time for committee discussion and any motions that we want to present. Our next meeting is March 31st, Grandparents Rights For Nova Scotia Association.
[11:00 a.m.]
Now, I need to find out what your wishes are on this. A couple of members have asked to add one quick item to the agenda and that's a request to come before this committee from the Cape Breton/Victoria Foster Parent Association. I believe, Russell, you want to make the request on their behalf?
[Page 39]
MR. MACKINNON: Thank you, Madam Chairman. It was a letter I received from this particular organization. I had conversations, as did, I know, my colleague, the member for Cape Breton Nova, asking if they could come in. They have a number of concerns to raise surrounding this particular issue, in particular, as a follow-up to the previous presentations that were made by other organizations. There's no great panic on this particular issue, but maybe some time in April or even early May, if it's possible.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: What is your wish? Can we add this to our list of organizations that want to appear?
MR. MACKINNON: I mean, there's lots of time. People can take notice on it, and maybe the next meeting we can take a review of it and acknowledge. I have a particular interest, myself, to be quite honest because, as with my colleague, I have a large contingent of foster parent families in my constituency. It's a predominantly rural constituency so some of their issues are unique, as opposed to urban.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Well, I think I'm getting the general consensus that we can add it in. If you will remember, I think around April, we are going to be reviewing our witness list and deciding on some priorities so you can certainly raise that topic at that time as well.
MR. MACKINNON: Sure, thank you very much.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there anything further that we need to do before . . .
MR. PYE: Yes. The report, with respect to motions, they should have been included in the report. They were not included.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes, the 2003-04 annual report to the Legislature from our committee, that was sent out last week. I don't know if people have responded to the committee clerk. One thing I have asked for is that the motions that we moved at any of those meetings be included in the report, if that's not a problem.
MR. PYE: So agreed.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay. I know yesterday was the deadline. Could tomorrow be the . . .
MS. MORA STEVENS (Legislative Committee Coordinator): Sure.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay. If you want to provide any more feedback or response to that report to Mora, if you could do it by 3:00 P.M. tomorrow, we will extend the deadline.
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MS. STEVENS: I have extra paper copies here, if members want it.
MR. PYE: That's good. I'd like to have a paper copy.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, do we have a motion to adjourn?
MR. MACKINNON: So moved.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. The meeting is adjourned.
[The committee adjourned at 11:03 a.m.]
