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MR. CHAIRMAN: The Committee of the Whole House on Supply will now be called to order.
The honourable member for Preston.
HON. KEITH COLWELL: Mr. Chairman, first of all I want to congratulate the minister on being appointed Minister of Economic and Rural Development, and Minister of Tourism, Culture and Heritage. That's quite a position to fill and a lot of challenges, especially with the economic downturn we have in our province. It's going to be a very challenging time, so your learning curve, I would say, is going to be quite dramatic, but I know you're up for the challenge and we look forward to a lot of very positive things happening.
I have many questions to ask, and I'm going to start with talking about business - I'd like to know, how many small businesses operate in Nova Scotia, and how do you classify a business as being a small business?
[9:15 a.m.]
HON. PERCY PARIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, good morning, and I thank the member opposite for the question and I also thank you for the congratulations.
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I know that one of the things that I've reflected on in the last three months is that I think I've been very, very fortunate and somewhat lucky when I think of Economic and Rural Development and having the portfolio, and most of that is because of the staff I work with and I'm sure, as the member is well aware, the Public Service Commission remains a very, very dedicated group of employees no matter who is in government. I certainly take note of the comments and they are very much appreciated.
With respect to the question around how many businesses there are in Nova Scotia - unfortunately, member, we don't have that information readily at hand, but I will say that I will direct staff to get that information and get it to you as quickly as we can.
MR. COLWELL: Mr. Chairman, maybe another question, too, as we're going through this, because I have several questions around business, is how does your department define small-, medium-, and large- sized businesses - what is the criteria and how is it applied? In other words, if you have five employees, you have a small business, or if you have 50 employees, you're a small business - how do you determine that process?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, in response to the question - I don't think there is any hard-core criteria when it comes to small business in the Province of Nova Scotia. I think when we classify something - and I even hesitate using the word "classification" because we don't like to box businesses in a corner - a lot of the determination is that we have certain knowns that are available and other initiatives that are available to those individuals that one may call small business. I think what we do in Economic and Rural Development is we do it on a case-by-case basis, so there's no written, hard-core material that says to qualify, to be classified as a small business the prerequisites are one, two, three and four. So a lot of it would be depending on the loan, the type of loan, what the business requirement is looking for, and obviously the number of people employed there as well - I don't think there is hard and fast material as to what classifies a small business.
MR. COLWELL: I appreciate the answer and it's nice for the department to be flexible, but if you develop a program for, let's say, small business, and I'm using that just as an example, or a medium-sized business or a large business or whatever - I know large business is a little bit different, but small or medium-sized business - how would you lay the criteria out? If you're going to put some kind of an improvement program in for a sector of business and you say it's going to be small business rather than a medium-sized business, how are you going to make that determination, because the business people in the community would surely like to know and say, yes, I may qualify for this because I fit this one, two, three, as you've said, but if I don't meet all those criteria, I won't meet this criteria to help our economy.
I know you don't have any hard processes, but it makes it very difficult without that to apply something that could be very beneficial to a particular sector of the economy in small business, probably five or six people or whatever the case may be - that's why I was
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trying to determine how you specify small business and the same thing goes for medium- sized business, how you determine that. So if you're going to put a program in place to help those businesses, how do you set the criteria, not having a fixed set-up, or would you do that at the time - how would you approach that?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member opposite for the question. Before I respond to that question, I was just handed a load of notes from staff in the gallery and I've been informed there are about 30,000 small businesses in the Province of Nova Scotia - I'm sorry, I got that wrong, there are about 30,000 in total and about 90 per cent of them are small businesses.
What happens in Nova Scotia, one of the things I had mentioned in response is that we do it on a case-by-case scenario. Generally speaking, and I want to emphasize the words "generally speaking," is that companies that have under 500 employees may be termed as small business. We've loaned some small businesses money in the vicinity of $100,000, $125,000, $150,000. Again, we would measure each case individually and on merits. I trust that answers your question, member.
MR. COLWELL: It sort of does. It seems to me that 500 employees in Nova Scotia is a large business. In other parts of the world that may not be a large business, but in Nova Scotia I would think 500 employees would be a good- sized business. Did I hear the minister right, that 500 employees or less is classified as small business? That seems like a large number of employees for a small business.
MR. PARIS: To the member, that is correct, 500 or less. In the Province of Nova Scotia, and I think probably business in general in Canada, the real large companies in Nova Scotia such as the Province of Nova Scotia is considered as a very, very large employer, and Aliant, organizations like that that exceed well over 500 employees, those are what we term as the large businesses. Certainly, in Nova Scotia, like probably the rest of Canada, big business, a small number of individuals in the world operate and control a very, very large portion of the money. So we have to have some sort of designation as to where we are going to draw the line.
One of the things that I mentioned earlier, and I'll reiterate, is that sometimes the line is drawn in the sand. One of the things I believe in, and I don't want to get off too much on a tangent here, but one of the things that I believed in and I think what I bring to the table as Minister of Economic and Rural Development is one of accommodation. I believe that one size doesn't fit all - sometimes we have to look at and measure things based on needs. When we draw the line in the sand - in some cases, I believe that you have to have a set of criteria, but even in having that set of criteria, we have to have flexibility within whatever it is that we do so that nobody slips through the cracks, particularly, in reference to small business,
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I believe that small business - and I've heard this over the last number of years - is the backbone of the Canadian economy. One of the things I want to ensure as Minister of Economic and Rural Development is that we don't let small business slip through the cracks, that we continue to not only motivate small businesses to come and see us, but actively pursue ways that we can be sometimes constructive and innovative in how we can be of assistance.
MR. COLWELL: I appreciate the minister's stance on this, and I agree with him. What I'm trying to really get at here - and maybe I should change these questions around a little bit - if you have a small business that has five employees, they have a whole lot of different requirements than if someone has 50 employees. People who have 50 employees have a whole lot of different requirements than if someone has 250, and it goes on and on. There may be issues with cash flow; it could be issues with capital that's required for companies; it could be just information they need; it could be training that they need.
I've got a small business background and I feel that small businesses, the smaller businesses, probably need a lot more help because they don't have the resources. They don't have the resources to hire the experts that the business with 500 employees would have. They can hire an accounting firm to do a study on something they're working on, they can afford to do it, but if you get somebody with two or three employees - I've got many, many in my riding, and some that the minister would be familiar with I'm sure, that operate with three or four employees - sometimes in the summertime they have 10 employees, their needs are a lot different than the needs of a company that operates year-round and would have more employees.
So what I'm really trying to get at here is what is the department planning in order to help all these different levels of business - and some of these things are hard for the Civil Service to understand because they've never operated a business. Even though I have a great respect for the staff in your department, and their capabilities have never been in question, but it's difficult for a small business to relate that information to someone in the system that has never ever had to worry about making payroll on Friday, or one of their employees is sick so that means that the production line is shut down today, their customers are mad at them, and next week they can't deliver the product they were supposed to and they could lose that contract.
Those are the things I'm talking about, and being flexible I think is very important but there are some things that small businesses need. I run into people every day who, because their business had done well it doesn't mean they're making money, and if you don't make money that causes all kinds of problems with cash flow and all kinds of other things. It's because they haven't had the time or the resources to get the expertise they need to help show them how to do that - and that could be done, in some cases of a seasonal business, in the wintertime - or they haven't had the time because they're so busy trying to get the work done that they can't stop and learn how to run the business to make money. That is a really
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serious concern. That's where I'm coming from - so if I could just get sort of some ideas on that from you, what you think this is about, and then I've got some very specific questions to ask.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, to the member my comments are this - and I trust that this will cover all of his concerns - first and foremost I want to say that currently what exists in the Department of Economic and Rural Development are a number of initiatives that will address those very things that you've expressed a concern about. I think about the I-3 program; I think about the program that we have, the Credit Union guarantee program, which to date has assisted 469 small businesses in the Province of Nova Scotia; we've got the small business loan program; we've got a voucher program; and we also have the IEF, the Industrial Expansion Fund. So there are a number of initiatives within government that are designed to address some of those specific needs and make those accommodations that you just so eloquently mentioned.
[9:30 a.m.]
I would also say that I think what the member is also getting at is maybe some views or some thoughts that I may personally harbour - and I see him nodding his head - where my head space is as far as the Minister of Economic and Rural Development, I've got to say this - I'm also an entrepreneur. I've been in business it seems all my life as just a small business but I can remember before I was a teenager, delivering newspapers. I can remember how we built, with some help of a younger brother, somehow you can get people to help you, when you're a year or two years older than one of your siblings, they think it's a treat to hang out with somebody who's older. (Interruption) I heard the member say Tom Sawyer.
What I did is I developed that paper route into a business and I say that because when I took over the paper route, I had less than a dozen customers. By the time I got ready to pass it on, I had over 35 customers. I can remember, not going back all that long ago, Mr. Chairman, it was sometimes a given, especially in the newspaper industry, when you're delivering newspapers, you just passed it on to somebody else. I thought about that and I said, well, I've invested some time and effort into building this up so, to me, it was worth something and, of course, my parents didn't think that would be appropriate, that you just said, well, look, here's the route, this is where you pick up the papers and these are the customers and, of course, at Christmastime it was really lucrative. So what I did unbeknownst to my dad at the time, because I wanted to get a CCM bicycle, I remember it so well, I sold the paper route to a guy who lived down the street and I never told my parents about it.
So I think we don't look at things like that as a business and I think from the perspective that I come from is that ever since then I've been in business. I've had a number of businesses that range from the liquor industry to being a landlord, and I continue to be in business to this very day. Since the question is motivated about who I am and what my
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thoughts are when it comes to business, I've got to say this - and I think this is really directly to your question - when I became Minister of Economic and Rural Development and I was sitting down with staff and with some of the agencies, is that we all know, and one of the things that you allude to is in the world of business, regardless of the size, we often see individuals come to the business community who may not have that expertise, that maybe there's something, Mr. Chairman, that might be, they may have a fantastic idea but there's just something missing. One of the first things that I've asked, well, how do we address that as a department if we have somebody who comes to the department, they've got this great idea, they need some financing. The location, everything is good but they don't have the business skills. They don't have the skills to carry out, to do what it is that they want to do, how do we address that in the Province of Nova Scotia. Do we have a mechanism in place?
So when I hear the member ask that question, I can tell you this and I say this with the utmost sincerity, is that those skill sets, those gaps that may be missing when somebody comes to the department looking for assistance are utmost in my mind. I mentioned previously one of my concerns would be about people, about Nova Scotians, and the last thing I want to do or the last thing that I want to be a party to is to see people fall through the gaps. What we should be doing is looking at, well, how do we address the gaps? How do we address that skilled gap that particular individual has, but also in partnership with that, Mr. Chairman, I would say it's also incumbent on us as staff and as the Minister of Economic and Rural Development to ensure that those individuals, those companies that come to us, we have to be honest with them. We have to tell them what those gaps are. We're not doing anyone, especially them, any type of service if we don't tell them what the gaps are.
I taught at Dalhousie for over 20 years, and one of the things that I did while at Dal had to do with entrepreneurship, and I made sure, during that period, that I was open and honest with any client that came to see me looking for direction, advice, or counsel. I trust I wasn't too long-winded, but you asked the question about - more specific where I stood on things, and so I just wanted to make it as clear as possible, and I hope I've done that.
MR. COLWELL: I appreciate your response on that, and I share your comments totally. What I see oftentimes is people coming to me and looking at setting a business up, and they really don't know where to start. They sometimes have really good ideas, sometimes have reasonable ideas, and sometimes the ideas are questionable, but an entrepreneur, of course, as you know, is driven by desire, desire to achieve and overcome all obstacles. Sometimes people who start businesses don't have that drive or the experience, so I'm pleased to hear the minister's view on this, and that's very important for all Nova Scotians because, again, with 90 per cent of all the businesses in Nova Scotia being small businesses - even though 500 businesses seems to me like an awfully large number - but in today's economy in particular, with technology the way it is, you can do a lot of work with a few people today with proper computerization.
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Along the same lines, we talk about people coming forward. Does the department have a program now - oftentimes I see people and I talk to people who want to start businesses, who really don't know where to go or how to start. Again, their ideas are usually very good, but they don't understand what cash flow is, they don't understand how difficult it is to do all the things, and what a financial statement is. I've seen some financial statements, quite frankly, put together by some of the local development agencies, and people wondered why they weren't getting money. After looking at them for about two seconds flat, you can tell why they're not getting money, because they're a piece of garbage - and that's being very polite - and that concerns me greatly.
Is there any kind of program within the department that can mentor these people along, to help them along a little bit, to get them going? I was in manufacturing, and you talk about something that's difficult - that's very difficult, and competing with people all over the world. When you're in that sort of situation you have to learn fast and your cash flow is a real big problem, capital is a real big problem, and training people is a huge problem.
Is there any program that the department has to mentor people when they come with an idea? I wish there was, because I get people coming to me quite often looking to start a business and, as I say, very good ideas, very dedicated people, and I work with them and I send them to different places and they come back with mixed results every time. So I think that is an area that we really have to look at in the province.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, the short answer to the question is yes, but I'm going to elaborate just a wee bit. We have mentoring programs, and those mentoring programs are through our regional offices, through RDAs. We take those mentoring programs very seriously. We also have mentoring programs through such things as NSBI, and there are other agencies. Even in the department itself we have mentoring processes, and so I want to make the member aware and hopefully make him feel confident that we do have mechanisms in place. We also partner with outside agencies when it comes to mentoring. Even in the partnering process, what we do and certainly one thing that I subscribe to, is we are always - and one of the things that I want to emphasize is that evaluation of what it is that we do should be an ongoing process, is that we should never ever be satisfied, as the Department of Economic and Rural Development, with what we have. We should always be looking at ways that we can improve upon what we have and part of that improving upon is obviously a grave concern that we have as a department in the mentoring program.
MR. COLWELL: Could the minister provide details on the mentoring programs, the different ones that you have. It's one that I know I could use, and I'm sure all my colleagues here in the Legislature could use them when they see constituents with a business, because I haven't been able to find them. There's only one that I have found and I won't name it here. I think it's a very good organization, but when people go to them, they come back with negative responses, not from the organization, I think the organization is doing their work properly, they're being honest with people, but I don't know how they can rearrange it to
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make people understand what they have to do to run a business and I think that's the problem. If you could give me a list of the different mentoring programs that you have, we can hopefully tie some people into that and help them.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I would be pleased to provide you with a list, we'll make that available to you as soon as possible, and we'll table it here in the House.
Again, I just want to expand a little bit, Mr. Chairman, if I may. I have mentioned some programs that we do have available when it comes to the mentoring process. I mentioned some programs that we have available and some partnerships that we have available with other agencies, and also some of the agencies that come under the umbrella of Economic and Rural Development. Certainly, I would be somewhat remiss even though, when I mentioned these, I was just giving examples, but we've got a strong partnership and relationship with the BBI, with the Black Business Initiative. I'm sure the member opposite is well aware of the BBI and the good work that the BBI does. Of course, maybe not all members in the House are aware of this, but the BBI has a very, very strong mentorship component in it. We are part of that as a support mechanism for the BBI.
There's also the Council Dévelopment Économic Nouvelle-Écosse. Again, we also have youth initiatives. We have initiatives for youth entrepreneurial skills. We have initiatives in partnership with the federal government and I think of the Small Business Service Centre that I think used to be up on Brunswick Street. Is it still there? We have the office up on Brunswick Street, which sees a lot of just off-the-street clientele who come in with those very things that you mentioned, but have all kinds of enthusiasm, if I can use your words, all kinds of enthusiasm. But there are some gaps, and the whole point of having a storefront office is to welcome people and have that door open so people can come in, especially off the street and, of course, there's always the other way, of making those appointments with the local RDAs, or even with our office, or the BBI, or any one of those numerous partners that we have throughout the Province of Nova Scotia when it comes to mentorship and just analyzing business ideas.
MR. COLWELL: I'm familiar with some of those. I think what I'm really trying to get at here is there's a real gap from the time someone approaches someone like myself, as an MLA, or someone else in the community, whomever it may be, another business person, until the time that they can run a business and make money, and even after they're running a business, they don't know how to make money. That's not limited to two- or three-employee mom and dad operations. This also goes well beyond that into some of the reasonably good-sized businesses - not of the 500 employees but, you know, 20, 30, 40 employees - just don't know how to make money. Over the years they've made money because it was easy, but when the economy gets tough like it is now, it's not easy anymore.
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[9:45 a.m.]
So you've got to know how to do it, and once you learn how it's very simple, but nobody will show you. Nobody in business will show you because then you would have a competitive advantage if you were in a position that would compete with them. I say that with tongue in cheek, because I was one of the founding members of the enterprise forum in Nova Scotia. I can recall when we first set it up, one of my tasks, where I was on the executive, was to call 20 business people I knew and get them to provide free mentoring to an individual we would pick, that was an up-and-coming business or a business that was going to start, whatever the case may be, and have dinner with them. When I say dinner, a long dinner. This would be four or five hours, and the individual would be brought in to present their business plan or their plan for marketing or the plan for financing, whatever the case may be, and we would pick four or five businesses that had expertise in that field - totally voluntary - to go and work with that company.
We would always pick people who weren't competitors to do this, so there was no issue there. So I made my phone calls and everybody I called up, oh, yes, no problem, we would love to do this - you know, sort of like going in the golf game for someone that's really into business, and anybody that has a business understands this - yes, we would love to do that. My problem came about three months later when I hadn't called them back. Well, how come you haven't called us? Why aren't you getting us involved in this? The trouble is we only did like three or four of these a year, and we only had four or five business people, and three or four of my colleagues said the exact same thing. So we had 50 or 60 businesses sitting there waiting, and when I talk about "business," I mean owners of the business. I'm not talking about a manager who fills and does a particular job, but the owners of the business, and these all varied in size. I got into more trouble over that because I didn't call them back to help than anything else that I've ever done.
So what I eventually had to do was call them up and say, look, here's what's happening. As soon as we get someone who fits some areas that you might be interested in, we'll call. Until then, it could be a while. So, anyway, after we got that going it worked very well. We helped many businesses move forward, and this is a process that was adopted from MIT. It turned out to be very successful, and I don't think it still goes today, but it's unfortunate because it was really business helping business. I can tell you I was in those meetings and it was an informal situation but, boy, the discussion was frank and to the point, and no pussyfooting around, as they say, but it really did help the business. Some of those business people who had never met each other before, who came there for help, were actually mentored long-term by someone at that dinner, or a friend of theirs.
The best part of it was the people who came, the business people came and paid 100 per cent for the dinner, even for the people who came. So it was costing them money to come, plus it was taking time away from their business. So that's the sort of mentoring I'm talking about. Now, that's quite a high level, and the people who were chosen to be mentored
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like this were already in business or so close to being in business that they had a really substantial business plan put together. It was checked out before they came, a lot of hard work was done around that, and it really did make a difference.
So I'm not suggesting that the department do that, but it wouldn't be a bad idea. It's really the basic mentoring. Most of the time the people come - and you've named some organizations, and afterward we can have a private discussion about that - but oftentimes people come, they don't know how to look after the cash flow. That's a huge problem in business, and anybody who runs a business knows it is. Also, capital financing is a huge problem - getting something you can afford, and then again getting employees, and getting productivity out of employees is really a difficult situation. It all takes experience. It takes time, and you really have to know what you're doing with your business because to run a business is a 24 hour, seven day a week job. There are no ands, ifs, or buts about it. When you get to the point that it isn't that anymore, then you've learned how to make money and everything sort of starts to look after itself after that, even though you have to keep a very close eye on it.
So that's the type of mentoring I'm talking about, it may be the guy who has a small construction company, who works with two other employees and does all small jobs around. It could be a carpenter doing cement work or they could be doing something else - whatever it is, it doesn't matter - who does well, but doesn't make the money he should so the next year he can afford to buy a machine that he needs that will make him more competitive. Instead of having to hire five new employees, he can hire four, he can become more competitive, make more money, and in the next year he can hire the other employee and buy the next piece of equipment he needs to buy, and grow as time goes on, and reinvest in the community. So that's really, to me, what economic development is about.
Have you considered looking at something like that? I know it's difficult because a lot of the entrepreneurs, number one, don't have the time to sit down and learn what they have to be doing, but I think there's a real opportunity in the seasonal businesses where people would have time in the wintertime to learn some of these skills and to work in place with them. They have to be connected with people who understand business, that's the other problem we have. The RDAs are great organizations, but I've never seen enough benefit from them, let's put it this way. I'll be polite.
The business plan I talked about earlier, that I saw, did come from an RDA, and it was written by somebody who sure as heck didn't understand business, and I've seen that over and over again. We have to get the right people in the right place. We have to understand business, and understand what the people go through every day, before we can actually make it through. Is there any plan in the department to really help business along those lines?
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MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I certainly want to impress upon the member how much I appreciate that question. I just want to say this, and I think it's a preamble as I respond to the question, this week in the House has been a pretty hectic week. I truly do appreciate having a member stand up in this House and accept and reach out in the spirit of co-operation. I will say to the member, through you Mr. Chairman, not only do I welcome that but I certainly will take you up on your offer to do some collaboration, work with this government, and work in a co-operative effort to move this province ahead.
As you so well put it, these are tough times. I welcome this and I would be more than eager to meet with you and I want to go on record as saying that. Thank you for the offer and yes.
You've asked a number of questions in there and I'll start off by saying, in response to your question, what a lot of entrepreneurs, in my experience, especially those who are aspiring entrepreneurs, my experience has been they have an idea, and I've always found it somewhat ironic that they never wanted to share that idea because they always were afraid - if I tell you what it is, then someone else is going to learn about it and someone is going to steal it. I'm a firm believer that we, as elected agents, should know this more than anyone else, information is absolutely no good, of no value to anyone, unless it's shared. What's the sense of having the information if you don't share it?
What I have seen in my experience, and I think this may be true with life in general, is people who have the information, the knowledge, they hold onto it. They say, I've got it and that gives me power. I always got a kick out of that because the real power is in the sharing of the information. That is what I try to tell aspiring entrepreneurs, so I think we share that, if I heard you correctly, honourable member.
I also would say that I do agree, cash flow is an issue, and I see, oftentimes, as money is coming in for the small entrepreneur, instead of paying Revenue Canada, he or she has that money in their hand, and they see something over there that they want to buy, well most times we know who is going to win that argument. It's not going to be Revenue Canada, although they win in the end, so we recognize cash flow as an issue.
You are correct about good employees, you have to surround yourself with the best possible people. I think, and I can't help but sort of smile to myself, because that goes back to some of my opening statements about me being Minister responsible for Economic and Rural Development because I think I've surrounded myself with good people.
There are also employment co-op programs that we've been involved in, that take in things around mentorship. I think I might have mentioned the immigrant program, so there are some programs that do exist. Could we be better at what we do? Well, one of the things that I've always said is yes, I think no matter how good a job you think you're doing, there's always room for improvement.
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I mentioned previously, Mr. Chairman, through you to the member, we do have the I-3 program, which I talked briefly about last night during my opening remarks. We have the voucher program, which I know I talked about last night during my opening remarks as well. We also have the credit union partnership, which we've been very proud of and very successful at. Can we be better? Yes, we can. And you've come up with some good ideas, the member for the Opposition Party, and I just reiterate that I'd be more than willing, and staff that are here have also heard your comments, and they have also heard my response, we are more than willing to sit down with you. Again, I thank you for the offer.
MR. COLWELL: Well you talk about the credit union and I think it's a great program, it really is. The only thing that concerns me is that I believe you said it was around 400, slightly over 400 loans provided. We have 30,000 businesses in Nova Scotia, so that's a tiny percentage of what we are.
I remember going to a function with the, at the time, President of the Royal Bank of Canada who came out and boasted about how much money they were loaning to business. At that time they were cutting back loans to businesses like crazy, but he was touting how much money they loaned to business and it worked out in Canada to something like $25 per business that they were loaning out.
I think one thing is the credit union problem I've had, because I've sent several people there and they've come back with very good results, a lot of people don't know about the program, even though I know it's been quite well promoted, but I think that's part of the problem. That's an issue that I think the credit union and the department should look at to see if they can promote that a little bit better. The credit union is a really good organization.
Really what I'm getting at here is, if you're an entrepreneur - the department itself, now the way it has been structured over the years and over time, it relies more on the RDAs and the outside organizations. Now that's fine, but I'm not convinced that these organizations have the skill sets they need to do this, and I've heard some awful horror stories. They're stories, that's it, they're nothing more than that.
I've witnessed some business plans that the RDA, in the past, in my previous area, had put together. People came wondering why they couldn't get loans at banks and one thing and another, and after about two seconds looking at it, as I've already said, a piece of garbage, that piece of paper. I mean you get a three-page business plan, someone is going to borrow $100,000 and everybody in the department, even the secretary knows that it is no good. Simple things in the business plan, like a telephone, you know you're going to put in a telephone, a business telephone costs you about $51 to $52 a month now, and you have to have more than one telephone line. You're going to have to have a fax machine or set up high-speed Internet, whatever this is. No mention of that, and I get down, telephone costs: $25 a month. It just makes you wonder how these people ever got the jobs they did.
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[10:00 a.m.]
So I think the department really has to look at this situation and see - it's too important to people. I mean, people are putting their lives on the line when they start a small business, and if you have somebody out there who is not giving the proper information to people or doesn't have the ability to give it to the people because they didn't hire the right people, then you've got a problem on your hands.
On the other hand, in the department, when I call a department to talk about a business for individuals, they know very highly-skilled people, people who have the knowledge of what needs to be done. Unfortunately, all the work that the department used to do is now at the RDAs and other organizations. It's not bad to do that, but the department should still do some of these functions because you have the expertise. I mean, some of the people in your department are probably some of the most skilled people dealing with businesses who are in the province who aren't running their own business.
I think we're wasting some of that talent by not having them out helping businesses more and some programs that they can utilize to help those businesses. I've talked to several people in the department and at NSBI about business issues with constituents I've had or people who have come to see me from other parts of the province because of what I've done in the past. When I talk to the department, say oh yes, we need to do this and this but we don't have the vehicle to do it, we can't do it and that is no good.
Then, if they go to their local development agency, they don't have the tools to do it, they don't know how to do it - and they've got the resources to do it. So there needs to be a blend here, I think, of what the department does and what the outside agencies do.
I'm not saying get rid of the outside agencies, don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that, because you need those people on the ground, but when you get an entrepreneur who is very serious, who has a really good idea and it looks like it is something that will take off - maybe it is something that is new in the province, maybe it is something that is old in the province with a different approach to it - they need to have the people they can talk to and say, okay, this is what you have to do, this is how you have to do this.
Ninety-nine per cent of the people I talk to who either own a business - I shouldn't say 99 per cent of the ones that own a business, but 50 per cent of the people who own a business and almost 100 per cent of the people who are starting a business - don't understand what the ratios are, your gross profit ratios, they don't understand your ratios for your costs for labour, as compared to your charge-out rates. They don't understand any of those things, and those are all simple things, and all things, that when you talk to your department, they sure know about them. You talk to somebody at some of these development agencies, they sort of give you a blank stare and say, what's that?
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That's a scary thought, because we're putting a lot of money in these organizations and we need to be convinced that they are really helping the individual. I've seen people just absolutely disgusted, they say we're not going to do this anymore, and they only come back to hope that there's some hope for them there. So I think that's got to be reviewed.
I don't know what the solution is, but it is something that has to be reviewed, and I don't think we're relying heavily enough on our expertise you have in the department - and the expertise is there, because I've dealt with the department for years and years and I can tell you, when I had a problem when I was in business, they knew what I talking about, they knew how to help me, and they knew where to send me to get help. Sometimes that is just as important as knowing what you need to do.
Some things they couldn't help me with because they weren't in those fields, but that's why you hire accountants to help you. When you make money you can afford to do that real easily, and away you go. Even finding a good accountant is a really complex issue. If you don't find the right one, it is unbelievable.
I'll tell you one more thing - and I'm going to be back after this hour on some more stuff - a gentleman came in to see me one day, and this is how bad it is in business: he came in and he had a financial statement put together, a month-end financial statement. He was going to the bank to shut his business down. He came to see me first - luckily, he came to see me first. So anyway, this individual who prepared this information, put it all together, he's a CA. I looked at the thing and he said, well, I've got to shut the business down, I'm not making any money after three months in operation.
I said that's strange because you're busy all the time, you don't have a huge number of employees, your rent is low, because I went through it all at the start. Everything is right and you should be making money, or you should be close to making money after three months.
So after I looked at the statement to the bank I said well, your problem is not - because they already had the appointment, they were going to see the banker right after me - your problem is not with your business, it's with your accountant. The accountant had capitalized operating and put operating stuff in capital and switched it all around to make it look like they were losing money. Actually when you adjusted it to where it should be, and I'm not an accountant but I've done a lot of financial statements, they were actually making money after three months, which is unheard of. So from my office they called and cancelled the meeting with the bank manager and they went and saw another accountant and, lo and behold, they were making money. So that's how people are getting bad information.
If you don't have the knowledge and experience to know what to look for, you're out of business and you don't need to be out of business. That's very discouraging for people.
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That's not just small businesses, larger businesses are the same way. So I think we really have to look at that and I'd like to get a commitment from the minister that he will review, in particular, how the department and how the government is dealing with outside organizations.
I say I don't want to see you get rid of them, that's not the point, but maybe give them the mentoring they need to help the people they are supposed to be helping.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I say this with the utmost respect. There was a lot in that last little talk. I don't know how much but I hope I took it all in. There were some things that were said that I will comment on. One, I think for a point of clarification and I mentioned this yesterday in my opening remarks, yes, through the co-operative program we've assisted I think it was 469 individuals but also I don't want it to get lost in that but there are 3,294 jobs over a five-year period in that same program. So with all due respect, when the member comments about the number being low, I think it's only fair that I give you some more numbers to look at and I think the 3,200 jobs are significant.
Also, in my speech yesterday, in my opening remarks, I talked about the Community Economic Development Investment Fund which I'm sure Mr. Chairman, that the member opposite is well familiar with. I just want to just take out a little section of my remarks yesterday and just reiterate; 42 Community Economic Development Investment Funds have attached investments for more than 4,100 Nova Scotians over the last eight years and assets now total more than $30 million.
I mention that, Mr. Chairman, just for a point of information for the member opposite, so that he can have a brighter, more fuller scope of some of the individuals that we do help in the vast numbers.
One of the things that I heard asked was around evaluations. One of the things that I hope that I've already said, and if I haven't, I'm going to say it now, is that as Minister of Economic and Rural Development, I believe that things should be evaluated on an ongoing basis. I take your comments very, very seriously and again, when you and I sit down and we have a more thorough discussion, because I think you come up with some very good things, we will be open certainly to looking at things with maybe a bit more scrutiny. I think it's good to ask those kinds of questions because I think it keeps us on track.
I'm just trying to think, was there anything else in there, through you, Mr. Chairman, to the member, that I might have missed because I don't want to miss anything?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, the honourable member for Preston's time has expired for this round. I'm sure the honourable member for Preston will have an opportunity again this morning.
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The honourable Interim Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party.
HON. KAREN CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I do want to begin questions on behalf of our caucus. First of all, I would like to say congratulations to the member for being invited into the Cabinet and for a assuming a large portfolio, and I do expect that we will be able to work through the questions with either some specific answers or, at least, leave the question and have an answer provided at another time.
We are, as everyone knows in this province and worldwide, in a bit of an economic downturn. Some provinces, some countries, and some states are experiencing it at varying degrees, and I guess everyone's hope is that we can survive it with the least amount of damage to our economy, to our workers, to our employers, and to all Nova Scotians. So my first question will be a bit generic, and that is what do you as the minister see with respect to our position in that economic downturn at this point in time?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Interim Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party for the question. I think that, recognizing the economic conditions, not only here in North America and Canada but around the world, I want to say this, have there been tough times in the Province of Nova Scotia? Absolutely. Have people lost jobs in the Province of Nova Scotia? Absolutely. There is no question about that. But in the big picture, have we fared fairly well, taking into consideration all the hard times globally, and certainly here in Nova Scotia? We haven't done too badly. Are we happy? No, we're not happy.
Our position, and certainly my position, as Minister of Economic and Rural Development, is that now is not the time for us to back off. I think we have to continue moving forward and continue to look for those opportunities for Nova Scotians. I say that people have lost jobs, but in the same breath with jobs that have been lost, we've been endeavouring to create new opportunities for the Province of Nova Scotia.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for that answer. I guess if I could be a little more specific, we have had job losses and, as the minister has said, we are trying to weather the downturn. My specific question is, where do you see us in that downturn? Have we bottomed out? Are we still on the way down? Are we starting to climb out?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, a tough question, and I think it would depend on what part of Nova Scotia you live in. I think that there are parts of Nova Scotia that have been hit harder than other parts of Nova Scotia, with respect to what's going on with respect to the economy. It's hard to predict. I wish I had a crystal ball. I wish I could look into the future. There are some things that are hard to predict, and surely there are some things that have remained somewhat stable. I heard earlier - by earlier I mean months ago - about how the car industry was in such great trouble throughout North America, and it would appear when I watch the news and I hear the interviews by those metro area people that have dealerships
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they say, well, it has been somewhat stable for them. So can I predict where the car industry is going? I wish I could, but no, I can't.
[10:15 a.m.]
The question about where we are, again, I reiterate, it's different for different parts of the province. Could I say that things are as good in Canso as they are in Halifax? Well, I would be hard-pressed to say that. When you lose jobs of any number in a town such as Canso, it has a significant impact. Metro may be able to sustain a loss of jobs of 60 people; Shelburne, the Shelburne Shipyard, to have a loss of 60 people is a devastating loss to that community. Again, without a crystal ball, I don't have a definitive answer to the question.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for the response. If we can pick up on the next part of that question, recognizing, as the minister has, that there are some areas of the province that are perhaps weathering the storm better than others, I guess my question would be what incentives do you have to present to those areas of the province that are not recovering as well as others? What kind of incentives, what kind of stimulation do you have to take to those communities to help them better deal with this?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I'll respond to that question by saying that in the Province of Nova Scotia we are very, very uniquely positioned. The best assets we have are our people, regardless what part of the province they come from. We have hard-working Nova Scotians, and I want to illustrate this. Just recently I was out in Alberta, earlier in the summer, and Alberta has just experienced a downturn - a downturn to them - and some of the people who were being laid off in Alberta were Albertans. Nova Scotians and Atlantic Canadians were maintaining jobs. Not to say that they weren't getting laid off, but it seemed to me that the same number of Nova Scotians that were holding on to the jobs was up.
Here in the province when it comes to incentives, one of the first incentives that comes to my mind is that we just experienced, through the Atlantic Film Board, the best year we ever had in film production in Nova Scotia - $150 million. One of the things that we've done for the tax benefits is that for those film companies that come here, we've given them 50 per cent plus an additional 5 per cent if they will shoot on location in rural Nova Scotia.
We've been negotiating with great vigour with other companies to put back into place those companies and initiatives that were lost during this recession period. An example of that would be, and I'm sure that the Leader is well aware - I can use the Shelburne Shipyard as an example, which was a devastating blow to the Town of Shelburne, a contract that has been, from my understanding, up for negotiations now for over two years, and I said to the people in Shelburne that this is a priority for this government, to bring closure to those negotiations so that we can get that facility up and running.
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So, we're taking great time and effort in our dedication to the conditions that exist here in Nova Scotia and improving upon them. We will do as much as is reasonable for those communities, whether they are in rural Nova Scotia or whether they are in metro.
We have so much to offer here in Nova Scotia. I look at another one of the things that adds to the attractiveness of Nova Scotia to the global world, it is our institutions, our learning institutions. We have the finest institutions internationally and companies outside of North America recognize that. That's why we're getting so much interest from foreign countries.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, that was a long time to give me one bit of information and I was looking for what this government is doing to stimulate the economies in those areas that are not faring as well as others. One answer was some incentives, a tax benefit to the film industry. Well, I would hope that the list is more extensive than that. I will be asking the minister for the extensive list that must exist in order to stimulate the economy.
I agree with a couple of things that the minister did say - not in response to a question, but did say - and that is that one of our greatest assets in the province would be our people, and the second thing would be the education institutions that we have so that those people can get the trades and the background education that they need in order to be successful and to be employable. Neither one of those is an incentive. Those are facts that exist here and we need to make sure we respect those.
I'm wondering what the minister would have to say to the people in Canso, at this point in time, about how you plan to stimulate the economy in Canso?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, two things I want to comment about. First, I'm going to go back, since the Interim Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party wasn't quite satisfied with the response that I gave with respect to her previous question, I will go back to that, if I may.
Some of the things that we're currently doing in the Province of Nova Scotia to stimulate the economy and to stimulate employment in the province are: recently, E & M Burgess Enterprises in Hants County, the Province of Nova Scotia made an investment of $100,000 so that their employees could stay employed. As I recall, Mr. Chairman, and please forgive me if I'm off by one or two numbers, but if I recall, the number of employees that would have been involved, there would have been somewhere in the vicinity of 36 employees, employees whom we thought were better served being employed as opposed to being a drain on the economy of this province.
There is also, Mr. Chairman, N.R. Kenny Logging company in Pictou County. We invested a $500,000 interest-bearing loan through the IEF so that they can maintain 22 jobs.
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There is also the Irving Shipbuilding here in Halifax, which is going to maintain 150 jobs, where we're approaching an investment of millions of dollars so that they can fulfill a contract through the federal government worth $194 million, again, my figures may be a little off, but I think they're certainly in the ballpark. There is Bowater Mersey Paper Company Ltd., where we recently invested $2.5 million through the Community Development Trust Fund to help them in maintaining 500 jobs. That's another business that's in what I would term as rural Nova Scotia.
There is also the Manufacturing and Investment Processing Credit, which is province wide, $25 million to build competitiveness of businesses. There's Murphy's On The Water, $1.6 million to renovate a popular tourist attraction into a year-round operation.
There is the high-speed Internet, regardless of when that initiative was started, it's something that's continued under this government. That's another huge investment on the part of government. There's the I-3 Competition to encourage and promote innovation across the province.
There are other things that I know we've done and maybe when we get into phase two of this and under the NSBI, maybe a similar question will be asked. So there are a number of other things that have been addressed under NSBI, which I would be more than happy to get into when we get into phase two.
I just gave off a number of specifics and do you know what, I've been up here for awhile and I forget what the second part of the question was. So, Mr. Chairman, if the member would (Interruption) I'm sorry, thank you. Canso, all you need sometimes is just that one catchword. I've met with the mayor of Canso, along with the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture. We had, in the words of the mayor, "a very productive meeting". Canso has some serious issues, some serious problems. Do I wish I had a magic wand, I do. Do I? No, I don't. We will be working, we have been working, we will continue to work with the Municipality of Guysborough to see what can be done for Canso.
I do know that we've been working with the federal government on Seafreez Foods Inc., we've got a transition team in place that we are a part of and we've been working for some time now to bring some closure and I'm somewhat reluctant to even say this because sometimes when you say things you put a jinx on them. But hopefully there will be an announcement very, very soon and again, I don't have a crystal ball, it's hard to predict how close we are but I would say that we're somewhat optimistic that something is going to happen in Canso and that optimism was shared by the mayor during our meeting as well. He was very pleased with the way those negotiations have been moving forward.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, there was really only one part to my question and that was what has this government done to stimulate the economy in Canso? So, talking to me
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about Hants County and Pictou County and Halifax County and Metro Halifax certainly was not part of the answer.
The fact that I think now all I'm hearing is that there has been a meeting with the mayor, you have no crystal ball or magic wand. I would like you to share with me what the concerns were that the mayor raised?
[10:30 a.m.]
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, the concern that was raised by the mayor was one of employment, that Canso had been hit heavily by unemployment. He expressed a concern with the federal government moving out of Canso. We mostly talked about Seafreez and where we were headed with that. I only stayed for 45 minutes for that meeting, I know the meeting went on a lot longer after I left, but certainly while I was there I expressed the support that Canso would have from the Province of Nova Scotia.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I would expect that the outcome of that meeting would be made known to the minister even though, perhaps, he was not able to stay and participate in all of it. But I would ask a question specific to Canso. What is the unemployment rate in Canso?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I don't know what the unemployment rate is in Canso. I can certainly find that out and make it available to her.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I guess, keeping Canso in mind, part of your answer did talk about high-speed Internet in response to my question about an incentive for Canso. Can you connect high-speed Internet and stimulus to economy in Canso? Can you make that connection for me, I am not able to do that.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I hope I can. What high-speed Internet does is connect you to the global economy, it connects you to the world. So no matter where you live in the jurisdiction of Nova Scotia, if you've got access to the Internet - a lot of business is done through the computer, computers know no borders. So, high-speed Internet is very vital and very important. By the end of the year I hope that we are on schedule to be the most connected province in all of North America.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, what is the status of the high-speed Internet in Canso?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I just heard someone in the back say, it was good, but I can certainly find out where connection services are with respect to Canso and report it back to the House.
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MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, one of my questions was the status of the Internet connectivity in all of Nova Scotia. Perhaps you can answer that question for me.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, it's at 90 per cent.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, that, obviously, would suggest that there is 10 per cent of the province that has not yet been connected. Would the minister be able to share with us what part of the province is included in that 10 per cent and what the challenges are in that 10 per cent?
MR. PARIS: Yes, that certainly is a tough question to answer at the top of my head. It varies. There are some parts of Nova Scotia, because of geography, because of the landscape, whether they are the hills, the valleys, et cetera, that may not have been totally hooked up yet, but over 90 per cent of the province is hooked up. The goal is by the end of the calendar year to have 100 per cent connection. That was the goal then, that remains the goal, and as far as I'm aware, we're on schedule for that.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I wouldn't expect the member to have the information on the top of his head, I would have expected a briefing. Could you tell me when you had your briefing on the high-speed Internet in the province?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I don't have that date at the top of my head either, but I had a briefing, I can remember being briefed, I would have to look at my calendar for a specific date. I don't tend to retain such dates.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, if the specific date has not been retained, perhaps the challenges that exist have been retained. Could you share the challenges with us, please?
MR. PARIS: This is a process that's never been done before and if it has never been done before, are you going to face challenges? Well, we're no different than anyone else. We've had challenges with the installation. I think the good news is that we're on target to have 100 per cent access provided to Nova Scotians. We have over 90 per cent installed now. Challenges are to be expected. There have been technical challenges, either through the service providers, or a number of things, I would imagine. But, again, the good news is that we're working towards a goal, we're working towards a target, we're on target and we're proceeding as planned.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I would take from that comment that there has not been any correspondence, perhaps, to the minister about challenges. I would ask the question, has the minister's office received correspondence about challenges with the completion of the Internet access?
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MR. PARIS: Yes, there has been correspondence. There are frequent conversations going on between Economic and Rural Development with this initiative.
MS. CASEY: If there has been correspondence, and if there have been conversations about the challenges, then I'm going to repeat my question, what are the challenges that have been brought to the minister's attention?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I will reiterate. The challenges that I'm aware of would be with the landscape. There have been challenges, sometimes the service provider has complained about the lack of co-operation with company X or Y, but for the most part it has been about landscape and my recollection is pertaining to things in the way, things in the way such as hills or those valleys.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the challenges, we are hearing landscape and the lack of co-operation with the providers, what are the solutions that the providers are looking at to deal with the challenges?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, some of the problems have been with respect to towers. We have had consultants go in and work with the providers to remedy any problems that there may be or that they're experiencing. We've had third party negotiations. So, again, I reiterate, this is a new service and challenges are to be expected.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, the contract that was let was for high-speed Internet to be brought to unserviced areas. What information does the minister have for those small providers who were in areas providing service and have now been challenged by the contractor going into a serviced area?
MR. PARIS: The problem with those small service providers is that if they can provide the service at a reasonable price, then I would like to think that they would see this as a plus for them. There have been some issues with small service providers and our instructions or direction has been, well, we would like to think that reasonable people, much like in the House of Assembly, can work things out.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I believe there has been correspondence through to the minister's office that identifies some of the challenges and that the spirit of co-operation of which he speaks may not exist between some of the small providers and the provider who has the contract. My question is, what intervention could or would there be from your department to try to resolve those differences between small providers and the contractor?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, our objective is that everybody in Nova Scotia will have high-speed Internet. That's our objective. We would expect those small service providers and those delivery agents to be able to work things out in a reasonable and respectful manner. That's our expectation.
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MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, well, the minister who is responsible for Economic and Rural Development, without intervention, is going to be witnessing small providers being put out of business. My question to the minister is, which is more important, letting this work itself out, having small providers go out of business, or sitting down to bring some resolution?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, it certainly is not the expectation of the Department of Economic and Rural Development that anybody is going to go out of business.
MS. CASEY: Then my question to the minister is, I repeat, what intervention can those small businesses expect from your department to help them stay in business?
[10:45 a.m.]
MR. PARIS: You know, Mr. Chairman, what those small service providers can expect is competition. It's a competitive world. I have no control over who competes with who. It's the nature of life. I would expect that those small service providers - again, I reiterate, we don't expect anyone to go out of business. I would expect that they will compete along with everybody else.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, small providers who are trying to compete with their own capital dollars against a provincially-funded contractor are certainly at a disadvantage. So my question would be, how do you, as the Minister of Economic and Rural Development, propose to keep them in business? Competition is good, but you have to be real about the assets that they have and the capital that they have available.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, putting my business hat on, I would say that those providers will have to invest. If they want to compete, if it is an issue of competing, then they have to make some investments. The bottom line here is that there is an expectation that Nova Scotians - not only an expectation, but want and need, high-speed Internet. We will have high-speed Internet. It's on target for the end of the calendar year.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I think the message is clear to those small providers that they're on their own. We will be back to discuss this at another day.
I want to talk a little bit about RDAs in this province. I would like to ask the minister the number of RDAs - full boards - that he has already met with.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, so far in the last three months - and I was just writing down here, but what I recollect is three: CoRDA, SWSDA, and the Greater Halifax Partnership.
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MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I know when someone assumes a new portfolio that they have a lot of contacts that are necessary, and I know that one of the first priorities - I think I heard the Minister of Education speak in estimates about having visited all of the school boards across the province. She made that a priority. My question to the minister is, why has that not been a priority for you?
MR. PARIS: Before I answer that, I also should say that there is a meeting pending with the regional authorities as well. I didn't say that it wasn't a priority, Mr. Chairman.
MS. CASEY: Perhaps the minister didn't say it was not a priority, but three out of 14 certainly doesn't suggest that it was a priority. So my question to the minister would be, when will the schedule for meetings with all of the RDAs be complete?
MR. PARIS: Again, Mr. Chairman, I did not say that it wasn't a priority. Since coming into this portfolio - you know, one of the things that I would invite, I would invite the member opposite to join me for a whole week and see how many people I do meet. I certainly know that we get phone calls, through our department, for requests for people to meet. I think it has probably been top heavy. It has been top heavy because we are a new government and I think a lot of people have been calling to see what we're thinking and where our head space is when it comes to a number of things.
As far as the RDAs, and again I reiterate, there is a meeting pending, that was recently set up in the last week or so with the Regional Association of RDAs. I do not have a time schedule as to when I'm going to meet with all RDAs. It is a priority and I will meet with them in due process.
MS. CASEY: I would suggest that RDAs are disappointed that that opportunity has not been provided and that meeting with them has not taken place at this point in time. We want to get the pulse of rural Nova Scotia. There is no better way to get that than to sit down with the folks in those RDAs and let them tell you what their issues and concerns are, what supports they need and what assistance they can provide to bring about that economic growth in their area.
I will be specific with my next question. I would be interested in the issues, priorities, whatever language you want to use, that came forward from CoRDA.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, they didn't express any issues to me. No, I'm wrong, one of the issues that they did talk about was Dieppe, the buildings in Dieppe (Interruptions) and what could be done. I'm sorry, I said Dieppe, thank you, minister, Debert. The purpose of that meeting was not about issues and concerns. Again, I reiterate, the purpose of that meeting was an introductory meeting, members of CoRDA wanted to introduce themselves to me, and it was left that we would be in touch with one and another and a more formal meeting would follow.
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MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the member for Timberlea-Prospect for reminding the minister that Dieppe is perhaps not the community of which we speak, it is Debert. CoRDA certainly includes more than Debert.
I would be anxious to know, since there were no issues discussed, there were no concerns raised, there were no priorities discussed, it was only introductory, I would be interested in knowing the length of time, approximately, for the meeting with CoRDA?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, it was probably over the course of a couple of hours because there were other people at that same meeting.
MS. CASEY: If I could be more specific, I understood that it was an introductory meeting between the minister and CoRDA. Now I'm hearing that there were other people involved, perhaps you could explain to me the invitee list at that particular meeting or what it involved in addition to having the minister available?
MR. PARIS: I can't do that, Mr. Chairman. I was invited to the meeting, I was there to meet with them, it's as simple as that.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I certainly will be able to access that information myself and I will be very interested to know what was on the agenda. I work very closely with CoRDA. I do know what their priorities are, I do know what their issues and concerns are, and I do know that any opportunity to meet with the minister would have been an opportunity they would have seized to share that information with the minister.
So my question will be to CoRDA, what information did they share? Because I think I'm hearing that from the minister's perspective there was nothing more, it was just an introductory meeting so perhaps I can share with the minister at a later date the agenda from that particular meeting with CoRDA.
I do want to refer to Debert, because that is certainly an important part of my constituency, and I'm interested in knowing how familiar the minister is with the industrial park in Debert.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I'm not overly familiar with the industrial park. I know it's there. We had a very, very brief discussion one day in Truro with CoRDA, so I know very, very little - the deputy minister and staff are certainly more familiar with Debert than I am.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I think I began part of my discussion about RDAs saying that if the minister wants to get a pulse on rural Nova Scotia about the economic opportunities and about the challenges and about the priorities and the ways in which the two can work together, the best way to do that is to meet with the RDAs.
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I've then been told that three meetings have been held, but even as a result of that there is little or no information that the minister has with respect to CoRDA, the priorities, the areas in which they serve. I guess my question to the minister would be what is the purpose of meeting with RDAs if it is not to get information to help you make better decisions about how your department can support those businesses?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, again, another reiteration, I was there because I was invited to be there - it wasn't my agenda. I will get to meet with all the RDAs over a period of time. I do know that there is an evaluation done twice a year with respect to RDAs and, again, I'll be meeting with the Nova Scotia Association of RDAs - and things take time, there are a lot of things going on in the Province of Nova Scotia right now and we're attending to as many things as humanly possible.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, perhaps we could be very specific on this - the minister's approach, I guess, to the issue of dredging in Sydney Harbour.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, my approach. Well I think that the Sydney Harbour dredging is more in the bailiwick of the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, Gateway initiative - that would be my interpretation. I did meet in Sydney with the Port Authority, someone from Nova Scotia Power, and a couple of other individuals, and at that time just talked specifically about Sydney Harbour, the dredging, and they gave me a presentation. The meeting lasted for a lengthy period of time. I've since let Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal and also the Gateway initiative, I made them aware that I had the meeting because coming into it cold - so they started off from the very beginning and they told me why the dredging was important as far as the shipping was concerned for the coal ships.
[11:00 a.m.]
I'm trying to use the parking lot that I've been provided with - the mental parking lot I'm talking about now - and, you know, I can't even remember the names of the people, but I remember what organizations they represented. So I thought it was a very worthwhile and beneficial meeting, certainly it was an educational meeting for me and I very much appreciated the meeting. They provided me with the slides as well, which I know I did bring back with me.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could make a connect here for the minister, the connect between the dredging of Sydney Harbour and the economy of the area. My question to the minister would be what does he see as that connect between those two?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I'm a little confused on the question, if the member opposite could clarify the question, please?
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MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, the question was, what does the minister see as the connect between the dredging of Sydney Harbour and the economic growth in the area?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, what I see from that one meeting that I've had, and certainly as Minister of Economic and Rural Development I see with respect to the dredging of Sydney Harbour that it's my opinion that if Sydney Harbour is going to reach its full potential, dredging may be a requirement. That's what I got out of that meeting - in order for it to receive its full potential, that was my interpretation.
MS. CASEY: My next question would be what impact do you see that that could have on the fisheries industry in the area?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, it's my understanding that there's an environmental assessment going on now, so until that's complete that's my only comment. I should add - one of the things that I think is important for me to say here when we talk about Sydney Harbour is that there has been an investment by Economic and Rural Development, I think it was $850,000, to Sydney Harbour. So, you know, to make an investment like that I think that in itself speaks volumes.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I think we're well aware of what our government did. My question is what will your government do to help Sydney Harbour reach its, I believe your words, "full potential"?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, as I've already said, there's an environmental study going on - Sydney Harbour, it remains to be seen. I think there are a lot of players who are involved here - there's the Gateway team. Again, you know, I don't have the magic wand and I don't have the crystal ball. We would do our due diligence, we will get all the information, all the data, and we will make decisions based on the information that's put in front of us.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I would be interested in knowing what the minister's definition of full potential for Sydney Harbour would be.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, full development for me and, again, I consider myself somewhat as a layperson when it comes to - I don't know what that translates into when it comes to fisheries. When I say "full potential", when I say that, it's based on a presentation that was given to me. One of the things that they talked about when I was in Sydney was about the coal ships coming in and how this would enable bigger ships to come into the port, which translates into they would be able to carry more coal which meant that Nova Scotia Power, who's burning the coal, would be more efficient and there would be a cost savings to the consumers. So full potential - I'm basing that on a presentation that was given to me with respect to what was in front of me. That's where that comment comes from.
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I have no idea what the environmental impact is going to be; I haven't seen that study. It's not complete yet. I have no idea what impact it's going to have on fisheries; I'm certainly not an expert when it comes to fishing. There was no discussion about whether or not that would mean additional vessels coming into Sydney Harbour. The discussion was about one thing, and one thing only. It was about the dredging to enable coal ships entry into the harbour so that the ships would be bigger and more coal - less cost to consumers.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, many of us have seen the presentation, but not all of us are the Minister of Economic and Rural Development. So my question to the minister is when do you plan to review the file on Sydney Harbour dredging and get the information that you need in order to show your support for a project that is very important to the folks in the area? When will that become a priority for you to review the file, first of all?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, you know, as I've already mentioned, there are some pieces that are missing. The environmental study is missing; the conversation has to take place with the Gateway transition team; there's Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal. There's a lot of information that still has to be collected and, as far as reviewing the file, the file is far from being complete yet. I think it's incumbent on those pieces of the file that aren't there to be there so that everybody can review the file in its entirety and not piecemeal, not one bit at a time. I think in order for anyone to do due diligence to whatever it is in life, if you don't have the information and the facts in front of you, you can look at a file until the cows come home, but until you have the facts in front of you and you have the information, that's when you look at things and make informed decisions.
MS. CASEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest to the minister that the facts are there, the file is there, the investment has been made. All the minister needs to do is find the file, review it and show some leadership with respect to that particular dredging of Sydney Harbour.
I would be interested in knowing if, at the time that the minister was meeting - my time is up? I'll be back, thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you to the honourable Interim Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party.
The honourable minister - the member for Preston.
HON. KEITH COLWELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the promotion but unfortunately it is not in the works right at the moment.
I've got a couple of specific questions to start off with. In the estimates, on Line 5.8, Economic Strategies and Initiatives, Grants and Contributions, I see that in the budget this
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year it is going to be decreased, by the new government, and I'd like to know why the decrease and what this fund is used for.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, to the member, what were those numbers?
MR. COLWELL: Well the information I have here is the estimates of 2009, I believe it is Page 5.8, Economic Strategies and Initiatives, under Grants and Contributions, the PC budget of last Spring had $24.892 million and the NDP one, or the new government, is $22.392 million.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, that's with respect to the broadband initiative, just simply when the broadband comes to conclusion, it will be one item that is no longer on the books.
MR. COLWELL: That's good, I just have one question about that. I have one street in my riding that doesn't have, or didn't have, broadband Internet and there are only about 8 or 10 houses on it. I wonder if the minister would commit to have that investigated to see if that can be done. It is in East Preston and it is Eagle Lake Drive, I believe. So that's something I just want a yes answer on that, that's all.
MR. PARIS: We can certainly look at that.
MR. COLWELL: Thank you, the residents will greatly appreciate that.
Under Investment, Grants and Contributions, over the past government's budget on that, and the new government's budget, there's an increase on that of almost 83.4 per cent. Could you explain what that is and why the increase?
MR. PARIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is the IEF increase, the Industrial Expansion Fund.
MR. COLWELL: What does it cost to administer this fund, the IEF?
[11:15 a.m.]
MR. PARIS: Yes, there's a total cost of $33 million, and that includes staff and everything else.
MR. COLWELL: Yes, my real question was, what does it cost to administer - just the administration costs of that? With that increase in the budget, are you going to add any additional staff to handle that?
MR. PARIS: The administration costs are in the vicinity of $600,000.
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MR. COLWELL: Are you going to add any additional staff to go along with the increased funding on this file?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, that's a good question. I don't want to say yes and I don't want to say no. It's going to depend on how this evolves. It's a busy department. If there's a significant increase then one could, I think, probably accurately assume that more staff may be required. Yes, it's going to be driven by participation.
MR. COLWELL: How does the decision-making process work on this? How does the application come in or whatever and when deciding who gets the funding and how much funding they get? How exactly does the process work within the department?
MR. PARIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I understand the question correctly, the question is about, how does one access the fund and what processes does one go through? As it currently stands, it's more or less staff-driven. It's a fund that staff make the assessment about. When they're sitting down and doing interviews, then it's one of the tools that they have available.
I think it's probably also incumbent upon me to mention - and I think I mentioned this in my opening comments - that as we go through this we are currently evaluating the IEF and how that money is going to be administered in the future. Hopefully in the very, very near future I will have available to this House and to members and to anyone and everyone, possibly a new way of disbursement around this fund. I trust that's answered the question.
MR. COLWELL: On this fund, when a process goes through and it goes through the department, who makes the final decision whether the money comes out, is given to a particular company or not given to a company? Is that something that the minister gets involved in?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, the first part of your question of the involvement of the minister, the answer is no. What happens is that it goes to Cabinet and the decision is made there.
MR. COLWELL: Well that would mean that the minister is fully aware of it, and does recommend it to Cabinet, because I was a Cabinet Minister and that's the way it works, so the minister is involved. If I recall properly - and it has been some time since I've been in Cabinet - it would mean that staff would come with a proposal and a document to make a presentation to Cabinet and it would only be with the concurrence of the minister, and the support of the minister, and then the minister would be responsible for getting it on the docket for a Cabinet meeting for Cabinet to decide. What specific involvement, presently, does the minister have in this? There definitely is an involvement, there has to be to get it to Cabinet.
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MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I misinterpreted your question because the involvement - and you're right - comes at a later stage and certainly for me it's not front-end loaded. By that, simply meaning, when I talk about involvement, I don't get involved with directing staff or anybody in the department, say, pointing my direction towards the IEF. You're right about the processes, what happens is that staff come to me with a briefing about anything that's going to go to Cabinet as far as that's concerned. They come to me with a briefing, I sign off on it, it goes to Cabinet, I comment on it during Cabinet and Cabinet drills all ministers before a final decision is made.
MR. COLWELL: Along those lines, the Cabinet makes the final decision and puts it out with their deliberations. What role does industry performance play in this decision? In other words, if an industry sector is coming looking for money, how does that play in the decision-making process in the department? I'm not talking in Cabinet because I realize the minister can't answer that part, but how does it play out?
If we've got a problem in a particular industry, and somebody comes along and says we can do better in this industry, does that play into the process? What sort of elements play in the process because some of this money that goes out through this thing is a pretty substantial amount of money and there has to be a process that goes in place to say, yes this is a good idea for Nova Scotia, it's a good investment for Nova Scotia, and it's something that will preserve a company here, or expand a company here, and create or hold some jobs. How does that process work presently?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member for his patience. The discussion that I'm having now is I'm trying to interpret your question and I'm not sure if I'm getting the grasp of the question. You'll have to bear with me. If you could provide a little bit more clarity to the question, I will better able to answer it.
MR. COLWELL: Well, the question is pretty straightforward. If a company comes forward and says, we want to access the Industrial Expansion Fund for a project we're going to do, what is the process they go through and what kind of deliberations do you do on that? Do you come along and look and say, okay, this is an area that really has to be helped to the province? Is it a company that's solid and we need to help them? What kind of deliberations do you go through in this regard?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, the usual process is that companies sit down with staff; they sit down with staff, staff does their due diligence, and the process could be lengthy. I don't think there's any predetermined amount of time on how long this is going to take. I think it depends, one, on the amount of the ask. It depends on the viability of the company or the individual. So I think there are a lot of factors that are involved in that, but certainly the initial phase would be to initiate a discussion with staff, certainly between staff and the individual or the company, to make a determination, does this fit under the IEF?
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At the same time I would think that staff would also make assessments on their own, and with that assessment would likely come some suggestions on whether or not it be a loan, whether or not - I think in ERD there are a number of tools that are available to staff, and I think staff, in collaboration with the client, if I can call this the client, would make a determination on where they're best suited, where the best fit is. Then they would build a solid business case on that and move forward for my signature on to Cabinet.
MR. COLWELL: Just another pretty straightforward question - the answer may not be easy - is what specific goals does the fund have? In other words, at the end of each year do you want to have 500 new jobs in Nova Scotia? Do you want to maintain 200 new jobs - or not new jobs, but maintain 200 jobs that would otherwise be lost? What's the goal of the fund?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, the goal of the fund is to foster economic development in Nova Scotia. I don't think - at least to the best of my knowledge, there wouldn't be a prerequisite that the fund is only going to be available, completely targeted on a number of employees or the maintaining of - whether it be 500 or 1,000. One of the things I said when we first started this discussion was around it's a case-by-case scenario, and Economic and Rural Development looks at each case as each case is presented to it. So if you're seeking, or if your question is about, is there a specific number, my response is there's no specific number.
MR. COLWELL: I understand the goal that you have, but I think it's too broad. It's important to foster economic development in the province, of course, and that's what we're are all here for and want to help do that, but if you don't have a real, tangible goal of some type - now, it may not be jobs, it may not be measured that way, and that's fine - how do you measure what you've achieved against what goals you have? If you don't really have a tangible goal, you can't really measure what you've done and see if it has been successful or not and see if it has got to be corrected.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, well, I've got to say to the member we may have our first disagreement today, because I think when you're fostering economic development, your goal is to create and maintain jobs. I think the measurement is pretty easy - either you're doing it or you're not doing it. So I think that if the goal is to maintain jobs, it's an easy one to track. It's an easy one to say, well, if we invest X number of dollars, we're going to create X number of jobs, and measurement is six months, 12 months down the road, have you created those X number of jobs? Have you maintained those X number of jobs? So I don't think you should be looking for a formula and by that I simply mean that, well, if I invest $100,000, then I should get a return of that of X number of jobs. I think, in the Province of Nova Scotia, if we are going to talk about people not falling through the cracks, if we're going to talk about different communities have different needs, and that we're going to do this on a case by case basis, then I also think that the measurement of success is a fairly easy one to track.
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[11:30 a.m.]
I think earlier today I mentioned some figures about some of the programs and some of the initiatives that Economic and Rural Development has and some of those numbers were very significant and, again, it's an easy one to track. The goals are to create, maintain and to foster economic and rural development in the Province of Nova Scotia. At the end of the day the simple ask is, have we done that, are we doing that?
MR. COLWELL: Minister, I don't think we have a disagreement on this, I think we have a different view on it. If the responsibility of the program, and these millions of dollars being spent on it, are to promote new employment or new jobs and preserve jobs, it should be pretty easy to measure. Now, a good measurement may be in one year that you've saved 100 jobs, and created 200 jobs, and with the same money the next year you've doubled that. Both of them could be correct depending on the economic situation, the industries you've helped, because one industry may pay people in six figures and if you save 100 jobs like that, then have major spinoffs, it may be as much an advantage as saving twice or three times that many jobs if it's in a sector that's close to minimum wage.
So the economic spinoff can be all together different, but you've got to have a measuring tool to measure this, and I said it's not just jobs. It could be because of an economy in an area like Canso, which I'm very familiar with, you may help save five jobs there. In that community that would be a huge economic impact. Do that in HRM, nobody notices. The ones in HRM are just as important, don't get me wrong, but nobody will notice because that's five jobs and nobody really notices that here with so many people working here. So there has got to be some kind of tangible measurement that you use to see if you're successful. These are large sums of money and when you're talking almost $40 million, it's sort of nice to know what kind of impact you're having with this money every year.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I think this is a matter of just a slight disconnect here because I never did say that we don't do assessments, we don't establish - and I'm just going to refer to something and since we're talking about IEF and we're talking about are you achieving the goals, and I'm saying, we are achieving the goals and yesterday what I said, and I'm going to read this if the Chair will indulge me:
"An independent analysis of the IEF for the six-year period ended in March 2007 showed the fund created or maintained an estimated 11,000 full-time jobs. It also had a return of $1.89 for every dollar invested. The analysis also shows that the fund has helped generate $7.2 billion in sales, including exports, $1.7 million in household income and $213 million in provincial tax revenues. It directly contributed $688 million to Nova Scotia's gross domestic product or 2.4 per cent."
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That's the end of that and that's what I read yesterday. So there are measurements, we can measure the results of the IEF. Does that answer the question or are we still in a grey area?
MR. COLWELL: Well, it sort of answers it, but I'm more the type of person who wants to see real goals, real achievements, and then you measure in between and see where you've come. Sometimes you can't always get to where you would really like to be, but then you make corrections so the next year you get to where you really should be. I know there are all kinds of ways to measure these things and you can play with numbers all day, but the bottom line is if you spend nearly $40 million, there should be a real benefit and the benefit should be, where it's the province that's trying to create jobs because jobs in this are really the thing we're trying to get here, especially in this tough economic time when we may see a jobless improvement in our economy. In other words, the businesses do better but they actually don't add any staff and that makes it very difficult for people to look after their families.
So I think there has to be a real tangible goal, there has to be a real tangible way to measure it and that could be all kinds of different ways. It may not be jobs but there has got to be a real tangible way to measure it because if you can't measure what you're doing, you don't know if you're successful or not. So when you go through that process, it just doesn't seem to jive as good as it should for that much money.
Anyway, I'm going to ask some different questions. I'm going to ask for some information from the minister if I could get it. I would like to get, if possible, the year by year funding for the Black Cultural Centre for the last 12 years, if I could get that? I know you don't have it today, but if you could supply it to me down the road, that would be fine.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, before I respond and I'm going to just make a little note, I just want to make this clear that we do measure. I just want to emphasize that, that we do measure, we measure outcomes all the time and especially when it comes to the IEF. What I read is a measurement and so, before we leave that, I just want to emphasize that we do measure.
Now, what you're looking for is, do we say at the beginning of Year X that we're going to create 500 jobs? Well, we don't do that. I mean with the economy the way it is, and facing a recession, we measure the results of all of our loans. So we do have measurement devices. Do we set a target date that we're going to maintain the 1,000 jobs in Nova Scotia between X period of time? Well, we look at the results as to what they are. We work hard toward results, and I've got to say this, and I generally don't like to speak for other people but since I'm speaking for staff, I'm going to take some liberties here. Staff is never satisfied with the results because they always want the results to be better, so they're always striving to do better. I just want to make sure that we get an understanding that we do measure and I'll leave it at that.
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You had a request for the Black Cultural Centre with respect to the amount of money, you mentioned over the last number of years, 12 years, and I will get that information and provide it.
MR. COLWELL: I think that the minister will find the numbers quite interesting for the Black Cultural Centre, and maybe if he could just have a quick look at it before you send it to me, I would appreciate that too.
Back on this measurement of the IEF fund. I have a great deal of confidence in your staff, don't get me wrong. I know they are never happy with - no matter what they achieve. But if the minister could at some point in the future, through your staff, send me how you measure the success of this in the department, what factors you use, because there have to be some tangible factors. Some you've already mentioned, and there's probably more; if you could come up with how you do that, I would appreciate it. Just supply it to us. I realize you do measure it, but I would like to see really tangible things.
The other thing is, the minister - and this is for my own information only, I have a business background as well - the minister did elaborate a little bit on the business that he did in the past. I would like to hear a little bit more about that if I could. It doesn't have to be in detail, just sort of what businesses you were in.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, yes, we will provide some information for you, and also, as far as some of those things that I've done, I would be more than willing to sit down. I think like most people - people like to talk about their history, especially if it is a particularly good one. I enjoy talking about my history because my history involves my mom and my dad. That always provides some enjoyment for me. I'm here because of them, and I take no credit for those accomplishments in my life. I once said a few years ago, when I received a Human Rights Award, that I accept this award not because of what I've done in life but because of what my parents taught me to do in life. So I welcome that.
MR. COLWELL: I thank the minister for that, and I look forward to that discussion. I think it would be quite enlightening and interesting for myself. Also, it was indicated as an answer to my honourable colleague from the Third Party that twice yearly there is a review of the RDAs. Could you elaborate on what you review, and how that review is done, and by whom?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, RDAs in Nova Scotia - and we're very unique with respect to RDAs - every year, they present the department with a business plan. It's our job to, when we sit down during the evaluation - and actually, that's done in partnership with ACOA - we ask them questions. We compare their business plans to where they are now, well, this is what you said in your business plan, and - I'm going to use something that we just got finished talking about - goal and objectives. We ask them specifically if they've achieved their goals and objectives, what stage of their business plan are they at. We would
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be asking them questions about barriers, hurdles, expectations around timelines, and if they're not where they expected to be at that particular time, how much longer is it going to take you to get there, are you going to get there. So it's a pretty thorough evaluation that they go through. The foundation of that evaluation comes from the business plan that would have been accepted previously by ERD and ACOA.
[11:45 a.m.]
MR. COLWELL: I can recall when I was on regional council that one of the local RDAs came in and gave us a rosy picture of all of the things they had accomplished and what they did and all this stuff. But at the end of the day when I asked, how many people did you employ, they couldn't answer the question. The next year they did, because we demanded that they provide us with that information and what companies they helped. Now, we didn't ask that in public, of course, because some of that information is confidential, but they did come back and said, okay, this is what we've done. After that their local one that we were dealing with at the time did change how it did business and, indeed, it did make a difference in helping create some more employment and a better business climate for some local businesses, which sometimes takes time to build the employment from where they started. So that's important, and I'm glad to see that they are reviewing the RDAs.
Have any of the RDAs in the last year - say, in the last couple of reviews - not met their goals, and has the department taken any action in that regard?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, what we have in Nova Scotia is if an RDA outperforms - and by that I simply mean that if it goes beyond its projections, accomplishes more than what its targets or goals were - then there is an incentive. They get an incentive from the province. I've been here for three months and I just made an inquiry because that needed some discussion. To the best of my knowledge, there has never been an RDA that has received some sort of penalty. I trust that answers that question.
MR. COLWELL: For the money spent on the RDAs by the province and ACOA, is there any minimum standard that the RDAs have to operate to? Can they just go and hire staff and say that they've done all kinds of stuff and, indeed, whether they do it or not, is there some minimum standard that they have to do or achieve certain things every year under the contract?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, my response is that RDAs have three funding agencies: municipalities, ACOA, and the Province of Nova Scotia. I would like to think that there would be enough checks and balances there to ensure not only proper protocol but - I was going to say business etiquette - all those procedures that are a requirement, that are a prerequisite for anybody to run not only effectively and efficiently, but certainly above the law and in accordance with the Act. So I would say with some assurance that those checks and balances would be there to ensure that.
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MR. COLWELL: Well, really what I'm getting at is, we have the municipal, federal and provincial governments putting a substantial amount of money into these organizations every year and I think that there would be some direction given to them, that these are the accomplishments we want to see at the end of each year. It would be the same as me calling someone up and saying, I want my house fixed, here's a cheque and I walk away. So the contractor comes, he says, I've got the cheque, what am I supposed to do? Does the roof leak? I better check that. Maybe the basement is cracked. I don't know. So what do I fix?
So if the RDA is not given any direction - because the goal would be the same from all three levels of government, to help improve our economy, employ people and do the things that we all need to have happen to look after our families and to make our province stronger. So there has got to be some kind of direction, hopefully, that these three levels of government would get together and say, okay RDAs, this is what you've got to do next year and with some sort - not just dictate to them - but go to them and say, here's what we're looking to achieve. Put your plan together to achieve this, that's why we're giving you the funding.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, my response is this, if we have evaluations, I mentioned that RDAs are evaluated twice a year. This arrangement with RDAs and with the funding bodies is performance based. By that I simply mean that RDAs are always somewhat under scrutiny. I think probably the biggest scrutineer of all is out there, the general population. Because I can tell you this, and certainly in rural Nova Scotia, more so than other jurisdictions, that if RDAs aren't performing up to snuff, up to par, up to scratch, in someone's determination then I would think that rural Nova Scotians are going to be on the telephone or writing letters or sending e-mails to our department and to ACOA and to the municipalities complaining about it.
So, I'm feeling fairly confident, as a minister after three months, that there is enough scrutiny out there to ensure that RDAs are conducted in a proper manner, if I could use that expression.
MR. COLWELL: I would somewhat agree with the minister, if somebody thinks there is something wrong with an RDA they wouldn't be long complaining. That's one of the processes we have in this country that is so great, that people can voice their views, whether they're founded or not, but usually when someone has a view, there's something behind it.
In the process of all of this, and excuse my ignorance, but is there anything anywhere that says, if I'm Joe Public out there and I'm not happy with my RDA, that says what is my RDA supposed to be doing for my community? Is there anything out there that says that? Can I go on a Web site to find it and can I go someplace and find it and say, my RDA is supposed to be doing this, this year, so I can then call up and say with some justification, well, this hasn't happened this year, even though they said they did it?
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I'm not saying that is the case, don't get me wrong here. I'm just looking for measurements again. I'm looking for measurements.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, since we're talking about checks and balances and I just want to - part of my answer to that question is that RDAs - I don't want to use the word "evaluated", but RDAs are continuously under surveillance. Because the model that we use is a performance-based model. So, by that I mean that the surveillance is continuous, it is ongoing, there are two evaluation periods, those are on and off ramps. The surveillance of RDAs is continuous.
The question that you're asking now is about a mechanism for a drop-off place for that complaint, that if somebody in the community has a complaint against an RDA, where do they go. My immediate response to that is that all of those ramps, such as the Web sites, contacting ACOA, contacting ERD, contacting our department, I think there are enough places now that one can register a complaint, or a telephone call to either my office or to the deputy minister's office or to the local ERD representative in the area, which we have all over the province. So pick up the phone and call, write a letter, send an e-mail, I think that those provisions are all in place.
Again, if we are in agreement that RDAs in rural Nova Scotia, if there was an issue, I don't think people would take too long to complain about it and I'm sure that those same individuals would find the mechanism pretty darn quick.
MR. COLWELL: My question wasn't around how you register your complaint, because people will figure that out, that is not an issue and it usually starts with some elected member somewhere who sends them on their way and shows them how to do it if they haven't figured it out, but usually they figure it out pretty easily.
My question is, if I live in rural Nova Scotia, there's an RDA in my community, how do I know that they are really doing their job, how do I know that? What standard do they have that I can go on a Web site and say okay, they should be holding 20 community meetings this year, they should be doing this and this and this off the business plan or off the goals that the levels of government want to achieve, how do I know they're achieving that? They might put a real rosy picture out there and say everything is wonderful - I've seen this happen in the past - and indeed it isn't. How do I then hold them accountable? Because there is nothing that I can see that, this is what they're supposed to do, and if I look at that and say, they're not doing a good job; or I look at this and say this is what they're supposed to be doing and say yes, they did all that so maybe they are doing a good job.
So really, to get people so they know, because it is serious. If you're in a rural community and a job is a very valuable thing, and it is getting more and more valuable as the economy gets under more stress, so how do I know my local RDA is doing the job for me and if it isn't doing the job for me, how do I know it's not doing the job for me.
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MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I think there are probably a couple of ways that come to mind. One is the business plan that I talked about earlier is in the public domain so anyone can have access to that business plan. If somebody for whatever reason or reasons couldn't access it, maybe they didn't have a home-based computer, I think going to their local councillor or town hall or through their MLA or to their local ACOA representative. Again, the business plan, I think, if one wants it one can get it and I think also if I am in a community and I have a question about something that is government funded, regardless of what the levels of government are, I think one of the first persons I would want to call would be my MLA and say look, Mr. or Mrs. MLA, I don't think ACOA is living up to its end of the agreement based on this, this and this. Can you offer some insight? I think it would go from there.
[12:00 noon]
I hear what you're saying and I understand what you're saying, but I think there are ways - again, the bottom line is that regardless of what task lies in front of Nova Scotians, depending on how badly we want something, we can be pretty innovative and pretty assertive in our asks. So I think if we wanted to review a business plan of an RDA - and we can do comparisons, we can take a couple of business plans from various RDAs and compare one with the other - I just think that the checks and balances are in place for us to be able to do that if we so want.
MR. COLWELL: Another question I have is on rural economic development. Outside the RDAs, what does the department do to really to promote rural economic development because that's a major, major issue in Nova Scotia now, especially with the out-migration to other provinces, and to HRM from the rural areas - and the areas are wonderful to live in, but if you don't have a job you can't stay there. So what is the province planning to do or what kind of initiatives can the minister see that you might start, or continue other ones or improve other ones to help rural economic development? When I say "rural", it doesn't have to be outside HRM because my area is faced with some unique challenges around employment.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I mentioned some of the programs and initiatives that are available. I think the question is a broad question, and the answer is broad as well. When I look at things that we could be doing, RDAs do have a role to play and they're fulfilling that role. So we rely heavily on RDAs to do those things they do and it doesn't stop with them, because I also look at those outreach offices that we have, whether it be the small business service centres or those facilities and places that we have in place with other partners throughout the province.
I talked about the Productivity and Innovation Voucher Program, which is another avenue for us to be very, very proactive; I talked about the Manufacturing and Processing Investment Credit program, which supports small businesses by offering a 10 per cent credit
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to businesses that invest in machinery and equipment to make their operations competitive, productive and sustainable; there is the Nova Scotia Business Development Program, which has helped 32 businesses grow last year, and also encourages start-up; there are the co-operatives and credit unions that play a key role in the economy in Nova Scotia which are also our partners; there is the Small Business Financing/Loan Guarantee Program; and there is the Business Retention and Expansion Program.
I said the question is a broad one, the answer could be just as broad because there are a number of things. We talked about broadband here today - broadband is going to play an important role in the future of Nova Scotians. We talked about the Mi'kmaq Community Development Fund. I think there are a number. Could there be more? Well, I don't know if you could ever have too many, but it may be something worth discussing, it may be something worth pursuing. But I think so far the Province of Nova Scotia, and I guess this was before me, but I think somebody in Nova Scotia has done a pretty darn good job of making services available and providing access.
MR. COLWELL: Does the minister feel we're doing enough to create a positive economic environment for businesses here in Nova Scotia so we can really see our economy grow? In tough economic times if you can make the economy grow, and you put yourself in a really forward position as compared to other jurisdictions, it really sets up a springboard effect that the province could really leap ahead. Quite frankly, the province has been lagging behind for many, many years in economic development, despite the best efforts by everyone involved, to really create more jobs and more wealth in the province.
Wealth, of course, generates more work and more investment in the province. So do you think, as the minister - and you've only been there a short time and it's really not a very fair question, but it's a question that is very important - do you think we're doing enough, and we're doing it in the right places to really create an environment for business and economic growth in the province?
MR. PARIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Are we doing enough? Well, I guess one could argue enough is never enough, there's always more that we could be doing. I know this because I was in St. Andrews village just recently, I was at a conference a couple of weeks ago, Celebrating Communities. I know in 2008-09 the Celebrating Communities initiative was started and that, through Economic and Rural Development, involved a lot of people from various communities throughout Nova Scotia.
I mention that because I think it's important to stress the fact that there's always something else to do. If we're still developing ways and means and ideas in 2008-09 and 2009-10, well I guess there's never a stop. I think we should always be developing ways that we can improve things in the Province of Nova Scotia, it never ends. I think it's an ongoing cycle and one that we certainly take seriously.
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I can only say this, judging from what I've come into, as far as the Department of Economic and Rural Development is concerned, there were some other individuals who have taken it seriously as well.
MR. COLWELL: Yes, there's always more that can be done but Nova Scotia's economy continues to lag behind most of the rest of the country. We look back hundreds of years ago and we led the country in economic growth and there are many discussions about that. It would be so nice for people to be able to work and live in their own community, typically maybe where they were brought up, or whatever the case may be. That is difficult because you have transportation issues, you've got communication issues and I know that the government has done a reasonably good job of the communications issue, which is key.
What elements do you feel have to be in place in a community to ensure that there would be some economic growth there? What type of things?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, wow, what type of thing should be available in the community. Well, you need a workforce, you need an educated workforce. I think you need - you know that's a really tough question. When I think of Nova Scotia and I think of the differences that we have in communities - and I hear every MLA who is in this House stand up and talk about their individual community and they talk about, not one MLA in this House thinks that their community is the same as the person's sitting next to them. Everybody thinks their community is special and has all the ingredients that it needs to be successful if they can just get a little something from something.
So I would say what those things - you need an educated workforce. It depends on what it is that you're going to get involved in, because if you're going to get involved in some things, well, transportation may be key, if you're not a coastal community and have the right waterfront, then maybe the sea is not an option, maybe container is not an option. If you're inland, then do you have the right roadway system that you can call for distribution? Or maybe you don't need any of those things and maybe everything you can do is through e-commerce; maybe it is through the Internet.
So when you ask that sort of question, I don't think I can say that these are the things that you need without knowing what it is that you are trying to promote or trying to invest in. I do know, no matter what it is, you need people. So I guess if there's one constant there, it would be the human resource - and a qualified human resource.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. That completes the hour for the honourable member. Before the Chair recognizes the member for the Progressive Conservative Party, the Committee on Supply will take a few minutes recess.
So the committee stands adjourned for a few minutes.
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[12:12 p.m. The committee recessed.]
[12:24 p.m. The committee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I will now call the Committee on Supply to order.
The honourable Interim Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party.
HON. KAREN CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I will be sharing this part of the questioning with my colleagues, but if I could get back on schedule - I know we talked a bit in the earlier questions about CoRDA and about Debert, and I did indicate that Debert is within my riding of Colchester North. I believe it is one of the areas in our province that has greatest potential for development. I would in all sincerity invite the minister to visit Debert with me. I believe it's important that he get to see what is there, what expansion has taken place and what potential there is, because I believe it holds a lot.
One of the things in particular about Debert is its geographic position within the province and I know the Gateway has been mentioned. When we look at transportation routes and means of transportation in our province, transportation of goods more than people, Debert appears to have some of the assets that would make it a logical stopping point or centre for distribution. It does have an airport, two years ago we invested about a quarter of a million dollars in that airport to allow them to do some capital upgrades that would make it more accessible for larger aircraft, cargo, private jets and so on. That development, I believe, is certainly an asset that will help attract businesses to that area.
Another asset is the position with respect to rail, the CN lines run through Debert. There have been lines off of the main line and so to improve those, and reinstate those, I believe would give rail transportation out of Debert another option.
Thirdly of course is the transportation by truck because it is strategic on Highway No. 104 and it is away from some of the larger, heavy traffic areas and, certainly, I think the potential there is for goods transported by truck to be distributed out of that area. I would really like the minister to accept my invitation to visit that area and look at what is there and what the potential is for development.
Debert has been transferred over to the municipality and I would expect that this would have been one of the items that CoRDA would have had on their agenda when they met with the minister because CoRDA has the responsibility for working with the development, within the park, for the sale of some of the buildings that were left over there after the military moved out. It is one of their top five priorities for Colchester County. CoRDA is working with attracting new businesses to the area and I think it's important that the minister would know what's there and what the potential is.
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The relationship that I began to speak about was with the Mi'kmaq. We have an agreement, when we transferred the lands from the province to the county, that there would be respect for the archeological finds that might exist there. We know it is one of the camping areas traditionally held by the Mi'kmaq and we know that there have been some significant finds. Development in that area certainly does respect those agreements and, although at times it may appear to slow down the development, I think everybody recognizes, through the partnership agreement, that it is of importance.
I guess my question to the minister would be, will he accept an invitation to visit Debert with the MLA for Colchester North?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I would be more than pleased to accept an invitation to have a tour of Debert with the honourable member opposite and maybe even go as far as to say, I would invite other members of staff to be in attendance as well.
[12:30 p.m.]
MS. CASEY: Thank you for accepting the invitation, and I do know that many of your staff are very familiar with Debert, so having them along would be certainly a source of information for both of us if that is your wish. So we will try to schedule something that is convenient for both of us. I want to ask a couple of questions around some statistics that I believe would be available through your department, and you have staff there, but where are we at the present time with employment rates within the Province of Nova Scotia?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, on that note, during the brief recess that we had, information was relayed to me that in the Guysborough region the unemployment rate is just over 10 per cent, and that includes Canso, but certainly in the Halifax area it's less than 7 per cent. What we will do is we will provide that information. We will make it available, and you'll get it as soon as staff gets the information together.
MS. CASEY: I would appreciate that. This question was more like a provincial statistic. Do we know - and I know, as you've said earlier, that some areas of the province are higher and lower and so on. I guess my question here was, what would the rate of employment in the Province of Nova Scotia be based on the most recent statistics?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, as strange as this may sound, right now as we are speaking there are more people employed in Nova Scotia than at any other time in its most recent history, and - you know, taking into consideration what the economic times are like. What I can do, and I certainly don't mind sharing this with the honourable member, if somebody could provide a photocopy for the honourable member, it would be very much appreciated.
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MS. CASEY: Keeping in the questioning on the employment statistics, and it's certainly good news to know that more people are employed now than in years past, and I think there are some good reasons for that. My question would be, with respect to that high employment rate - I believe you said there is a high employment rate in Nova Scotia, so with respect to that, do we have any idea what has contributed to that high employment rate? Has it been a change in demographics? Has it been out-migration and so there are fewer people? What might have contributed to that higher employment rate than we would have seen in the past?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if I gave you a figure, but the unemployment rate in Nova Scotia is over 9 per cent. You asked about what contributes to the unemployment in the Province of Nova Scotia. (Interruption) Employment, okay, thank you.
I think there are a number of factors and I don't think we can specifically say that there's one thing. I think there are a number of Nova Scotians now who are returning to the province. I think that a number of people are returning from out West. There's the issue around out-migration, which has always been here in recent years, but I think has just multiplied. Even though I say that there are a lot of people working in Nova Scotia today and one of the things I said - and I think it was yesterday or it might have been earlier this morning - is that there are a lot of people who have lost jobs in Nova Scotia and there are a lot of people in rural Nova Scotia.
When I look at what has happened in Canso, when I look at what has happened in Shelburne around the Shelburne Shipyard, there have still been some significant job losses in the Province of Nova Scotia. Again, if we're talking about rural Nova Scotia, that has a more profound effect and impact on rural Nova Scotia than it does in more populated areas of the province because in rural Nova Scotia, when you lose 60 jobs, it has a significant impact on indirect and direct business opportunities that it affects. So that grocery store business all of a sudden drops, prices go up so that they can keep their profit margins. The bus service, if you've got one, becomes that much more expensive. I think there are all sorts of things that impact when we talk about jurisdictions around the province.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, one of the messages that I hear as I travel around the province, and I'm sure the minister is hearing this as well, is the strength of our small communities and what we can do to continue to strengthen them so that people will continue to live in small communities, have gainful employment there, raise their children there, populate our schools, add to the volunteer base in the community, contribute to the economy and all kinds of benefits that will be realized if, in fact, we can keep the community vibrant.
My question to the minister would be, what incentives are there within his department to provide support for those small businesses and that could be small farms, small fishing, small retail business? I'm interested in the incentives that are there, and the grant money,
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whatever you want to call it, to support small business. If we want to define small so that we're on the same page here, I would say any business that employs fewer than 20 people, if we can use that as a benchmark.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, you're really putting me in a bit of a box here. I'm trying to think of some companies that employ 20 people or less. The first one that I thought of when the question was being posed was the basket company in Hants County, but then when I do the math, I think they employ 36 people, and that looks like that will be all right. They may be a good example and I could provide some other examples too. What we've done with a company like that, or similar to that, that's in rural Nova Scotia, we were able to provide them funding. Here we've got a company whose workforce - and I want to be very respectful of their workforce and I would probably say they're not university degree individuals who work there. There is not a whole lot of employment in the Town of Windsor and surrounding areas. This is a company that employs people, that is trying to do the right thing and it's one of those companies that has been struggling.
We've looked at it, and we've made an investment in it, but we've wanted to extend that investment to also include the management team that is there. One of the things I've talked about this morning is that oftentimes what we'd like to do in Economic and Rural Development is - it's one thing to invest money, but we want to make sure that when we make those sorts of investments, that the skill sets are going to be there. So we like to provide the mentoring that some individuals need.
I can think of another company that was in to see me as early as two days ago, a family operation, a husband and wife, they'd been operating their business for something like 20 years. They've isolated themselves to only one customer, so when we met with that company, when I, as minister, and my executive assistant, met with these individuals we thought that, well, you have a good product here, but it's your customer base. You have to spread the net out and you have to include more people. So what we're trying to do is provide those sorts of incentives along mentoring, not only with the money, but also with respect to the skill sets.
I mentioned earlier about the I-3 initiative, Innovative Idea Initiative, this year alone is up and attracted 133 submissions, which is a higher submission rate than what they had last year, and most of those submissions is coming from rural Nova Scotia.
Another thing we're doing and what we've done is celebrating communities. I attended an event in Antigonish, I attended an event in Truro around celebrating communities and helping individuals in communities to be energetic, innovative and assist them as they move forward. They're leaders of their communities and we assist them in moving forward to make their communities sustainable.
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There are a number of initiatives that we do and I think the fact - I know that somebody made a joke here in the House about me and how much I like to be in front of the camera. I thought, how unfair that is, for myself as Minister of Economic and Rural Development, that's a promotional tool. The more times that we can be in front of photo ops so that other Nova Scotians can see what we're doing around the province, I think that sends a clear message to all Nova Scotians and encourages Nova Scotians who haven't taken the initiative to get in touch with us, to do so.
So I think there are a number of initiatives we are doing and that we will continue to do. As the previous member once asked, are you doing enough? My response is, I don't think you can ever do too much.
MS. CASEY: Thank you for that answer and for providing some of the programs that are designed to help small business.
In your response, you did speak to the expertise that may not exist within the management or staff at a small business. I agree that may be the situation in some. My question to you is, if a small business is looking for ideas about expansion, or requests for funding to help them expand, what kind of assistance would be available for them through your department to provide them with that business kind of expertise that they may not have?
[12:45 p.m.]
MR. PARIS: We do have the Small Business Loan Program, but I would say that before we even get there, my counsel, my advice to just about anyone and everyone would be, the first step would be to sit down with somebody in intake. That intake can happen anywhere. That intake can be in rural Nova Scotia at one of the outreach offices - Open For Business. I'm saying some things because all of these things Economic and Rural Development also has a partnership with so that's the - when we talk about the Black Business Initiative, which we have a relationship with, when we talk about CEED, which we have a relationship with.
My first piece of advice and first piece of counsel would be, if anyone's looking for expertise, advice, counsel, a loan, or money of any shape, way, or nature, regardless of the size of their business, I would encourage - if you don't have access to the Internet, call your MLA, go to your Open For Business centre, go to all of those individuals and organizations that are available in the community, that are there to assist you. You can call our office any time and we'd be more than willing to give direction.
MS. CASEY: Thank you. This question may be unfair of me to ask of the minister now, but I'm sure his staff will be able to give him the answer. What has been the history of small businesses coming forward and taking advantage of those opportunities? Are there a lot of small business folks that approach the department and say, I need assistance with my
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business plan? What kind of a response to those kinds of services would we have had in the past?
MR. PARIS: I'll give a couple of examples. I don't know if, when you say how many - I would say there's a fair number. I would think that the fact that 250 companies have accessed the I-3 program is significant. I think when we talk about the Mi'kmaq community and the African Nova Scotian community - I can certainly speak from experience with respect to the African Nova Scotian community, because I think a large number of the population has tried to or has gone to access the provincial government when it comes to business and business ideas.
Sometimes it's just a matter of somebody going to somebody and just running the idea by somebody to see whether or not it is a good idea. I know one of the hardest things that an entrepreneur wants to hear is the word no. So I think the answer to your question is, I think there are a fair amount of people who do access us through various means, whether it be through Open For Business or other mechanisms as well.
MS. CASEY: I would agree there may be a number who have taken advantage of that. I also believe there may be others out there who don't know where to go to access that information, and maybe they - I guess it's kind of a marketing strategy to make sure small business folks in the province know that there's assistance available, there's expertise available, and can be directed. I know they come into my office, as they do other MLAs, and we try to direct them through. I do believe there are some small businesses out there that are struggling, and maybe what they need is a little bit of expertise.
I think it's important that we all make an effort to share those resources that are available, let people know, and help them navigate through the system, and I believe every MLA does that on a regular basis.
My last question before I turn it over to my colleague has to do, again, with small business and we talked about the skill level that may exist and a need to enhance those skills. I guess my question is, are there incentives available so that a small business person who wishes to have one of their staff upgrade so that they can be more efficient and better handle their responsibilities, what programs are available, if any, so that that small businessman can ensure that his employees get upgraded skills so they can be more effective within the small business?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, in response to the question, we have agreements. Certainly we like to partner with Labour and Workforce Development. We have a mentorship program through NSBI. We also have funds that could be available, or made available, for people who wanted to do something in the way of addressing skill gaps. So I guess the short answer to your question, and I don't want to be too short about this, is that
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we do have things that are in place to be of assistance to those individuals where there are certain gaps.
MS. CASEY: This will be my last question and then I will be sharing my time with the member for Cape Breton North. One of the things that we were able to do when we had some businesses that had a slowdown, or a shutdown, was to partner with the Departments of Education and Labour and Workforce Development to provide that upgrading or retraining. So I guess my last question would be, are there situations in the province right now where your department is co-operating with Labour and Workforce Development or the Department of Education to help employees get the skills they need to continue to be gainfully employed?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, to the honourable member, the answer is yes, there's the Mi'kmaq program that we partnered with and also there's the transition program that we've done some work with, and Canso would be a perfect example of that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cape Breton North.
HON. CECIL CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, I'm very pleased to continue on behalf of the Progressive Conservative caucus with questioning in estimates with the Minister of Economic and Rural Development. I, too, want to echo the comments of my colleagues with regard to congratulations to the minister in being assigned a very important portfolio, in fact portfolios, at this juncture, with the economy, having to take on Economic and Rural Development and, of course, Tourism, Culture and Heritage, very much at the core of where we will be, and where we want to go in our recovery, but also keeping Nova Scotia very vibrant and an ever-growing and welcoming community. I know that with the minister's good staff, he will have the opportunity, over the course of time, admittedly, to be able to follow up a lot of the suggestions and/or discussions that have come forward during estimates but also as he talks with his Cabinet colleagues, they look at their government's agenda.
Of course, there are the checks and balances that come in the role, the Opposition with the government. I don't believe any government sets out to ever on any development course not to have a positive outcome. They may disagree upon the means or maybe the approach to it but I'm sure the minister is very sincere, and I know him to be very sincere, in his desire to do the best he can in that job. As he knows, we won't always agree but then again that's what our system of government and governance is based upon - the checks and the balances that will be there.
Quite frankly, minister, having been part of an administration coming in, I know what it's like to come into office, and in my case in a by-election, to a government that had taken actions and you're part of that. You don't always agree and you don't always look at those things in the same perspective as others. So as we go forward there are things that I will
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probably agree that could use some tweaking and some changing and improvements. I know one example, minister, was NSBI. Prior to my being elected, a decision was made to establish Nova Scotia Business Inc. and make it more arm's length. One of the things that I've looked at is the arm's length is too far away from where it should be with the minister and the government and the policies that are driven, the amount of activity and involvement by the minister and the Cabinet itself with that process because, to my honourable colleague, the member for Colchester North, some of the access to capital issues, there have been frustrations.
For instance, NSBI was supposed to go in the direction of establishing a small business loan program to try to build in between what the Community Business Development Corporations that were federally funded would do, minister, to what we, when we established working with the credit unions of this province, the credit union and small business program, to get for the smaller business needs and then we would actually have NSBI fill in the blanks where they could help out with credit and investment, where they could help out with establishing a bridge, for instance, where Business Development Canada would come in on some larger amounts.
So one of the things, minister, with your colleagues, I'm wondering at this point, through you and your deputy and at some point with Cabinet, if you will be looking at the spectrum of who finances what and where because we have been fortunate to have the micro-lending mechanisms, you know, we talk about venture capital but I guess, with the economy and with the recovery, I guess the question I would ask is, have you looked at that and if you haven't, will you look at the spectrum of available financing mechanisms and the ability to partner financing mechanisms between one, either federal or provincial funding agency, and the other?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for the congratulations and I guess I will make a comment. I believe and I agree that there will be times when we will disagree. I have never had an issue with disagreeing with anybody either in this House or outside of the House. I regret to say that even there were times when I disagreed with my parents and learned later that mom and dad always knew best.
What I will say since the honourable member mentioned this, and I'm just going to jump on this before I get to the heart of the question, is that I think in the House of Assembly, like any place else, we have to realize there are different types of people and I think sometimes we forget that. So I will end this by saying that sometimes what I may consider offensive, may be appropriate by somebody else and I just think that we have to be more conscious of the diversity within the House of Assembly. So I'm just saying that in response to your opening remarks.
As far as the scrutiny of some of the things that we do in the Department of Economic and Rural Development, I agree with you. I agree that we should be continuously
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looking at things that we do, I think it should be all inclusive whether it be around funding, whether it be around those agencies that come under the umbrella of Economic and Rural Development. I think they all should be looked at, and I think it should be an ongoing basis.
[1:00 p.m.]
One of the things that I said earlier was that evaluation should be an ongoing thing, and what I'd like to see is - I believe the member from the Liberal Party sent an invite when he was up that he would like to talk to me about some things within, and I think that some members opposite have already come to me about certain things and made some good suggestions, which I've taken to heart. I believe that we're all here for the same reasons and the same things, so that evaluation that I'm talking about now and that you're speaking of would be so much more productive that we did more things - and I don't want to use the word "co-operation", because then that will get played into something else, but I think we should do more things in the way of consultation.
I don't profess to have all of the good ideas. I've got a few, but I don't have all of the good ideas, and I need all members of the House, whether they be PC, whether they be Liberal, whether they be NDP, to contribute to this so that we can make Nova Scotia the best province that it can be from an economic and rural development perspective, and I look forward and I invite the honourable member to join me at any time that he wants to talk about economic and rural development in the Province of Nova Scotia. I would welcome the opportunity, I would see it as a huge step forward, and I'm open for it any time and you're absolutely right, all things should be evaluated.
MR. CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, I agree, when we come to this House we come from different perspectives. As you would know, even in our own area, the differences between the Whitney Pier to the Northside - while we're all one local community, we're across the pond from each other, and they're very different. Therefore, in Waverley-Fall River-Beaver Bank, things are going to be much different as they're composed there than the issues that we would be bringing forward from other communities to the House, and in looking at how we deal with that and how people perceive what is coming out.
The other thing, as you know, when you're in a place like Cape Breton, we have to face a chronic issue because in Halifax people often listen and say, there's Cape Breton complaining again, and if you're in Cape Breton, there's Halifax not listening again. That's part of where we are and part of the dynamic that we look at, and we recognize as well when you have a government that has a very large presence in Halifax, so obviously it's going to look to the needs of that area, but we also have areas that we would represent, such as Cape Breton North and building on those areas. So as we go forward there are going to be many different perspectives with regard to the diversity in this House and the divergence of positions that are held.
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I'll go back to the fact that part of what we have, now that you're a new government, now that we've had changes and with different agencies and that, through you or maybe your deputy can advise - has there been a recent review of the various levels of programming from CBDC to credit union loan programs, what NSBI is or isn't offering to Business Development Canada? Has there been a review of making sure that a business interest at a time when we're looking for economic recovery and instilling people, have we gone to make sure that we've connected the dots and consulted with the various funding partners to look at a path forward? If we haven't, it's a recommendation, really - can we update that, because from time to time you have to do it. Federal governments change their programs, sometimes RDAs are involved with trying to help incent regional development. I'm just wondering if that review has been done and if it hasn't, would you undertake one?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, one of the things that I stressed when I took over the portfolio, and I think I've probably mentioned this at least a couple of times here today, is that it's my opinion that evaluations should be an ongoing thing. I like to look at things in a way that, if it's broken, fix it. Along the process and the direction to staff is that, as you administer those things that you've got to do with respect to economic and rural development, it's not enough to administer it. It's also your responsibility and it's your role to be looking at it and tweaking it, and how do we make it better.
I think the answer to your question is that we currently do that. At least for the last three months anyway, we have been doing that. Your point is well taken, and certainly I will have a more extensive dialogue with staff about where we are as far as all of our initiatives are concerned and what can be tweaked, and just reiterate and re-emphasize the importance of that, at least from my perspective, and I'm sure a lot of people will share the same.
MR. CLARKE: Just building on that with the minister, one of those components of course being Nova Scotia Business Incorporated, and I would ask the minister when he does meet with the corporation and with his deputy, when they're having discussions with them, if they would revisit small business loans outside of those larger loan areas that obviously have a greater appeal. They're more exciting, I suppose, from an account executive point of view, but we also know the connections between the big deals need to have small business to support them and access to capital really being a component of that.
One of the other aspects of dealing with that is making sure that we have that in place, so it's not a critique of the minister or the department, it has just been something that has been evolving and was supposed to occur, and over the course of time hasn't. It isn't about spending more money either. It's about making sure, within the existing financial envelope, that as we look at economic recovery the business agency that has been set up gets more connected to the other grassroots programs, the RDAs, and is responsive in a regional sense that's there.
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Again, it's not a critique, but as you go forward with that review and without having to ask the Minister of Finance to spend more money, there are existing capital pools that may be able to leverage; for instance, Community Business Development Corporation money that you can go up to $150,000 may be able to help trigger other funds and support initiatives because what we find in the regions, as you know, everyone is saying, who is your partner? No one wants to be the sole funder of an initiative anymore. So as you do that I just would note that I've recognized it as a bit of a frustration that people have come up against, especially in the regions dealing with access to capital. Part of that reason, when they looked at NSBI, is especially when you get out of major urban core areas, the big banks or the traditional big banks weren't there, and that's why the credit union process came in. So I would just note if you could, when you're meeting with NSBI to ask about the small business component before, which was supposed to be around $6 million of their capital pool to help, if you would just look at that.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to advise the honourable member that I whispered in the ear and we have taken note of that, and he can rest assured that this is something that the deputy and I will be discussing on a future date.
MR. CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the minister for that undertaking, and the one thing I do have an appreciation for in a past portfolio is the fact that the Minister of Economic and Rural Development really touches on so many other portfolios. You're going to deal with Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations on municipal projects, your RDAs that cross over so many aspects of community. You're going to be dealing with initiatives, whether it's the Industrial Expansion Fund and your colleague, the Minister of Finance, and the Treasury Board.
Things that are talking about incenting - I know my honourable colleague, our Interim Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party, had mentioned the dredging of Sydney Harbour. It is a multi-faceted thing, and while it would traditionally be under Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, it's very much seen as the key to opening up the economic future of the ports of Sydney as we move forward. As we come out of, and I'm being positive - as we come out of recession, and we're very pleased, and we can debate numbers and how people approach them, but we're very pleased that Nova Scotia seems to have weathered the economic storm better than some other jurisdictions have. We're very hopeful that we come out of it strong, so that other debates that come up about how people use new and growing revenues in the future will be positive for us.
Mr. Chairman, as we build on that, I know there has been some discussion here with RDAs, but they are very important on the regional, localized level because they do connect. The value of the RDA is the fact that you have municipal, provincial and federal levels of government all co-operating and being that one window.
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My question to the minister is, as you go forward, and the budget is there, and people are looking for clarity and looking to next year and activities, have you set a process, officially, with the department and the RDAs, of consultation, their business plans, what their needs are, have they provided you with a set of requests? Has the association given you a briefing at this point that you could provide some details on?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, to the honourable member, the RDAs provide us with a business plan. It has been three months - I haven't gotten that yet. What happens is that during the course of a year, there are two evaluations that take place with the RDAs. I will be having my first meting with the Regional Association of RDAs that is coming up in November. That will be my first meeting where they will be all together and we will all be in the same building.
We have with RDAs, and again, I don't want it to sound too repetitive, but the evaluation is an ongoing process for RDAs. We're always measuring them because it is a performance-based model and so as a performance-based model we're always looking at where they are, what they're doing, where they are with respect to their business plan, are they meeting their targets, et cetera.
Even though it's an ongoing process, I think that every time there's a new minister, or even a new government, I think what comes with that are new ways of doing things. Certainly as we prepare - when I say we, I refer to staff and I - prepare for November's meeting, there'll be a lot of discussion leading up to that meeting with respect to RDAs and where we're going or where we're not going with them.
MR. CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the minister's position and moving forward on that, before the minister meets with the RDAs, because I know in my Critic responsibility for Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations - and I would just offer this as another ask, that he would, potentially, in advance of meeting with them, if there would be potential to meet with your Cabinet colleagues, and it has happened before where you have a Cabinet committee that is established, because the RDAs, as we go forward, are involved with everything from the main street programs to how do they attract new business, to tourism and culture, to other initiatives and development they're trying to do. One of the things that the RDAs become is that catch-all for all the various portfolios that are there, as was the example, even with the Port of Sydney, with the dredging. There are so many factors that go in to prepare it. I think you will find when you meet with them, you're going to see many aspects of colleagues' portfolios come forward in that.
I am truly interested, and I will be very willing to support the minister, as you go forward, because I do recognize we've got to look at how we leverage the dollars that are available, we can debate how they're done, but the available dollars that are put forward, and how those dollars can be leveraged best to meet those regional development goals and objectives. If , before that meeting, you would have an opportunity to converse with your
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colleagues, because the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal has issues that come up that are RDA-based, you have two of those portfolios, the Minister of Finance is going to have a role in there, Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations especially, because you get a lot of community-based initiatives, community infrastructure.
[1:15 p.m.]
As you know, a lot of communities also look at a rink or a ballfield or some other level of infrastructure as an economic driver for regional competitions and growing the ability to bring people in. So I would just wonder, before you meet with them, would you have an opportunity to have a specific discussion with your colleagues so that the RDAs can help advance the discussion coming toward the Spring, and hopefully more economic recovery.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I like the suggestion. I think that across the Province of Nova Scotia, with some of the issues that we face when it comes to economic and rural development, whether it be around literacy, whether it be around - one of those things that we've talked about at great length today is skill sets. So the suggestion has some merit and I will give it due consideration.
MR. CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, again, thank you to the minister. As you know, there is and there has been frustration, and I guess differences of opinion, what should have been done to date, but in the interest of what estimates is about and getting into some more detail of wanting to move forward, I'll thank the minister for doing that. I will state here that I will be the first one to compliment the minister, because I recognize the value of making those connects and the value of being able to go back to your table and have your colleagues understand that they may have a piece of the economic pie to contribute - that it's not just your budget, minister. I recognize you may have to leverage a piece of your budget or you may have to be the lead minister to whom other ministers and their portfolios give the resources to help those communities.
I think the RDAs are trying to reflect, from what I've heard, the fact that we've had an election, we've had change, there's so much uncertainty, there is a level of frustration that is out there that people are looking to get on and pass this. So as we move through the course of the ensuing weeks and we get through this session of the Legislature, I know, minister, aside from the budget you're trying to move through right now, you're immediately going to be - if you're not already - into the budget process for next year.
Thus the reason why those consultations are going to be so important, because while this budget is yours and you've taken elements from what was in the Spring budget, the next budget is truly yours and how you leverage that will be defined by that. I do recognize that you, yourself, are part of bringing a lot of factors together, and I think with those RDAs and your willingness to do that, that will help us probably move to better relations over the course
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of time, in terms of the type of debates and the types of issues we discuss on this floor that right now are precipitated by some frustrations, and the frustrations that are echoed here are probably because we're getting them from other people and not seeing things move at this particular time. There's a certain angst, but there's more because there's a lot of opportunity and people are looking to the future and where we go.
So again I'll thank you for that and then move to another aspect, from the localized maybe to the wider aspect of economic recovery, and that is with regard to export development and our trade relations and development, because you are the trade minister for Nova Scotia. As we look to trade, and I do know and I want to compliment as well, I know the Greater Halifax Partnership has been very good and focusing on those, the Port of Halifax, Port of Sydney, the Cape Breton Partnership, other regions. Minister, can you tell me right now, are there specific areas that you are looking at for export development and supports, both for small and big business and in urban and rural opportunities?
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, one of the things that - and I'm going to say "we" - Economic and Rural Development, we realize how important export is to the Province of Nova Scotia and actually to Canada. Since I've been Minister of Economic and Rural Development, we have entertained some people from India, we had some South Korean representatives here. I realize that export is an important product for us. So knowing that, I think it's incumbent on us to continue to maintain and promote exporting of goods whether it be from the Canso area, whether it be from Sydney, whether it be from wherever, but this is vital to us. We're talking export, but in the same breath we're looking for any and all opportunities when it comes to foreign markets. I don't want to exclude those companies who have come here looking at Nova Scotia as far as expansion goes.
Really, the only trade mission that I have a real familiarity about is the one from India. So in my discussions with those individuals, it was a two-way street. What can we export there and in the same breath, what businesses do you have in India, or anywhere in the world, that could possibly relocate to Nova Scotia? We're doing in this in multiple ways, but we certainly recognize the export market as vital to the Nova Scotia economy.
MR. CLARKE: I thank you again, Mr. Chairman, and to the minister, I don't dispute anything he has said and I would echo his comments with regard to Korea and India. As you know, there were things we pursued, and I would greatly endorse his continuing those relations, building on those relations, looking to how we expand that. As he knows, I have been frustrated, and I have been frustrated at the minister for almost four months. I felt that there was not enough consultation with areas. Because it is hitting home for me.
I have had over 600 people directly affected by the loss of manufacturing and the manufacturing based on exporting. When you have families that have returned from out West and they're coming back to your area, when you have the highest per capita case load for Community Service recipients in the province, it is not an honour that you want. There
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are issues that are faced and people looking for jobs. When you come from a labour-based community, people are looking where those actions are. An election comes and goes and the people who are out of a job didn't care if there was an election or not, what they cared about was something going on to try and deal with it.
Again, we did an initiative and I will thank the government and the Minister of Labour and Workforce Development for continuing with the Magna workers, to get them back to school, and they are back to school, and we hope that they stay at the community college and I'll leave that caveat, we won't get into that, we've had that debate. The point is there were some good initiatives and these people are retraining for areas where there are some developments.
My point is, Mr. Minister, my frustration with the level of action is directly related to people I see on the streets, that I meet at the Legion hall and they hear about their kids and they're worried about where they are. So if you feel any frustration from me, or a position that is very strong, recognize that I have hundreds and hundreds of people out of work, we have buildings which are idle, that is good infrastructure we're trying to expand on in the Northside Industrial Park, the Port of Sydney development, it's all part of an underlying thing.
So while we'll get into a heated debate about that, and we've had it, and I've expressed it, and I don't make any apologies for that, nor should you in terms of what you're doing, other than that I will say we need to continue to work forward and I'm glad because of the export opportunities. I'm a believer that if you can grow Halifax, you can grow the wider economy, but we also have to look at things that grow, the Port of Sydney, and thus the issues around the dredging of the harbour, everything, as you've indicated here today, about the coal boats and what they can mean in terms of larger vessels coming in, the more cruise ships that can come in, which is another interest you have in your portfolio, all of that is really important. I know time has run out, and I'll leave it with - we'll pick up on the export side with the manufacturing.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The time allotted for debate in Committee of the Whole House on Supply has now expired.
The honourable Deputy Government House Leader.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee now rise and report progress back to the House.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is carried.
[The committee adjourned at 1:25 p.m.]
