MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I will call the House to order at this time.
We will commence the daily routine.
PRESENTING AND READING PETITIONS
PRESENTING REPORTS OF COMMITTEES
TABLING REPORTS, REGULATIONS AND OTHER PAPERS
STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS
GOVERNMENT NOTICES OF MOTION
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Health.
HON. RONALD STEWART: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas today marks the 50th Anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, the Nazi death camp in Poland; and
Whereas people from around the world are pausing to remember the murder and atrocities committed against Jews and other minorities in Europe at that place of shame; and
Whereas humankind continues to show intolerance and cruelty towards groups and individuals in all countries;
Therefore be it resolved that the members of this House pause to remember the victims and lessons of Auschwitz and rededicate ourselves to the elimination of intolerance, torture and tyranny wherever they may be found.
Mr. Speaker, I would ask for waiver of notice and perhaps with your indulgence, a moment of silence in remembrance.
MR. SPEAKER: We will first request waiver of notice.
Is it agreed that notice be waived?
It is.
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
The motion calls for the observance of one minute of silence in memory of the victims of the Auschwitz murder camp. I would ask members of the House to stand.
[One minute of silence was observed.]
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you.
INTRODUCTION OF BILLS
NOTICES OF MOTION
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition.
MR. TERENCE DONAHOE: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas a recent Cape Breton Post editorial compared January's unemployment statistics to "the daily body count issued during the Viet Nam War - numbing rather than enlightening"; and
Whereas the Post editorial also said, "If unemployment has a political dimension, there must be a point at which Cape Breton politicians are at least obliged to bear public witness to the social tragedy unfolding in every single one of their constituencies"; and
Whereas members of the Progressive Conservative caucus will never let Cape Breton Liberal MLAs forget that they were all elected on a promise to improve the economy, not to increase the unemployment level;
Therefore be it resolved that the silent 10 from Cape Breton come forth with their vaunted job creation ideas that they told their constituents they would undertake if elected to this Legislature on May 25, 1993.
MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.
The honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party.
MR. JOHN HOLM: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas on January 24, 1990, the MLA for Cape Breton East shot himself in the foot by pronouncing the Marshall Commission's report to be a whitewash before he even saw the report or its recommendations; and
Whereas on January 26, 1995, that same MLA shot himself in the other foot by leading Liberals and denying consent for a reaffirmation of the importance of implementing the Marshall recommendations; and
Whereas the application of the lessons learned from Donald Marshall, Jr.'s ordeal are a litmus test of commitment to ending a double standard in Nova Scotia;
Therefore be it resolved that this House rejects the reluctance of government members to even affirm the goal of implementing the Marshall Commission recommendations, a short five years after those recommendations were made public.
MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.
The honourable member for Kings West.
MR. GEORGE MOODY: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas as the Barteaux orchard farm in Annapolis County dates back at least four generations; and
Whereas the father and son team of Robert and Dwayne Barteaux were recently recognized for their superior work in integrated pest management by the Fruit Growers Association of Nova Scotia; and
Whereas Robert and Dwayne Barteaux were judged the best of 11 orchards which entered the contest from the Annapolis Valley;
Therefore be it resolved that Robert and Dwayne Barteaux be recognized by members of this Legislature for the many years of hard work and providing, like so many other apple producers in Annapolis Valley, a quality product for Nova Scotians to enjoy.
Mr. Speaker, I would ask for waiver of notice.
MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed that notice be waived?
It is agreed.
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas in Nova Scotia, the rest of Canada and around the world, the 50th Anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz is being commemorated; and
Whereas we honour the millions of Jews, Poles, Gypsies, and all victims of the Nazi death camps by keeping alive their memory and our awareness of how many people collaborated with this mass murder because it was an act of government; and
Whereas we must remain vigilant to expose and halt genocide, ethnic hatred, and the state-sanctioned murder and persecution of minorities and of women wherever and whenever they occur;
Therefore be it resolved that this House honour the victims of Auschwitz and the other Nazi death camps and to rededicate ourselves to preventing and halting the hatred that gives rise to such atrocities.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask for waiver of notice.
MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed?
It is agreed.
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
The honourable member for Hants West.
MR. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas over 50 years ago this week, the prisoners of Auschwitz were liberated from harsh labour and certain death; and
Whereas Auschwitz was not the only German prison camp during World War II but was the largest, where an estimated 1.5 million people were murdered, the majority being Jews; and
Whereas one Red Army infantry division commander who helped to liberate the camps said of Auschwitz, I am an old soldier and I have seen many things in my time, but I never thought I would witness anything so terrible;
Therefore be it resolved that, lest we forget, neither the horrors nor the injustice of Auschwitz 50 years later have been forgotten.
Mr. Speaker, I would ask all members to stand for a moment of silence to remember those precious lives lost as well as the many remarkable lives spared.
MR. SPEAKER: We have done that already. I would think it, however, a most appropriate resolution to carry and will put the question to the House, if it is agreed.
Is it agreeable?
It is agreed.
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
We have already observed the minute of silence in memory of the victims but I think it bears repetition.
The honourable member for Halifax Fairview.
MS. ALEXA MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas the Government House Leader was in the news Thursday stating that the demand by his own political Party for an opportunity to reject its leadership was a judgment on the entire government; and
Whereas that same minister then moved to cut off any means for Nova Scotians, Liberals, or otherwise, to believe this House could soften the blows inflicted by an arrogant, authoritarian, or self-destructive government; and
Whereas Liberals thus gained another reason to reject this government through leadership review;
Therefore be it resolved that Cabinet Ministers who wish to inflict Party or public humiliation upon themselves should refrain from making the rest of the province suffer with them.
MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled, although I couldn't really hear it, but it is tabled anyway.
The honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party.
MR. JOHN HOLM: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas the Finance Minister assured this House yesterday that no employee had ever or would ever be laid off by the Liberals without first being consulted; and
Whereas the minister may be ignorant of the fact that the Supply and Services task force did not include a single union representative, not any consideration with workers' representatives actual costs or alternatives; and
Whereas the minister may also not know that the department pretended union consultation had taken place until it was forced to admit the truth;
Therefore be it resolved that the Finance Minister should apologize to the dozens of cleaners and other low-paid employees who have been summarily fired by his government without his promised consultation.
MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.
The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas the first principle of parliamentary law is the protection of minorities from tyranny of the majority; and
Whereas the most fundamental privilege of MLAs is freedom of speech and the primary duty of Opposition is to hold the government accountable; and
Whereas Mr. Speaker's responsibility is to defend the principles and privileges of all MLAs without favouritism towards any political Party;
Therefore be it resolved that this House lacks confidence in a Speaker who would permit the most Draconian possible form of closure to be imposed for the first time in the history of our House through a tortured interpretation of 1916 authorities, without first amending the rules or even holding one meeting of the Committee on Assembly Matters to consider the issue.
[8:15 a.m.]
MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.
The honourable member for Halifax Fairview.
MS. ALEXA MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas under unremitting Tory pressure, this government agreed to a major reduction in tobacco prices despite the proven, deadly, addictive nature of this drug; and
Whereas smoking among Nova Scotian children and youth has, predictably, risen while the government has also suffered a major loss of revenue; and
Whereas professionals who must deal with the horrible health consequences of years of tobacco addiction are urging reconsideration of this catastrophic decision;
Therefore be it resolved that the Cabinet task force which pledged an all-out effort to fight tobacco addiction while lowering prices should report forthwith on the result of its efforts, and propose how to prevent another generation from falling victim to the grim Reapers of this obscenely profitable industry.
MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.
Are there further notices of motion? If not, we will advance to Orders of the Day.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Government House Leader.
HON. RICHARD MANN: Mr. Speaker, would you please call the order of business, Government Motions.
GOVERNMENT MOTIONS
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Government House Leader.
HON. RICHARD MANN: Mr. Speaker, would you please call Resolution No. 1563.
Res. No. 1563, re Rules of the House (Amendment) - Rules 57 and 58 - notice given Jan. 24/95 - (Hon. R. Mann)
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic, you have approximately 22 minutes remaining.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Mr. Speaker, I will now attempt to wind up my limited participation on the resolution before us that will arbitrarily and unilaterally change the Rules of this House for some considerable time, undoubtedly into the future. I say that it is my limited opportunity to debate because, as opposed to any other motion that has been brought before this House, any other bill that has been brought before this House, any other motion that has been put to the floor for debate, we are being precluded as a result of some creative interpretation of rules to not be able to bring amendments or to participate in any manner whatsoever in an attempt to have some input into the resolution that is before us.
Mr. Speaker, I just want to briefly recap some of what I had to say last night to underline why we are at this point today, why we are at the point where we are dealing with a resolution that would arbitrarily reduce the amount of time that we are able to participate in clause by clause debate of Committee of the Whole House.
Mr. Speaker, as I indicated again last night, this government has been under extreme pressure, opposition from one end of this province to the other as a result of two very controversial pieces of legislation. In particular, those are the casino bill, Bill No. 120, and the Act to amend the Workers' Compensation Act, Bill No. 122. These are bills that go completely against any commitments, any promises made by this government when they were in Opposition or when they were running for government or any commitments that have been made subsequent to injured workers or to Nova Scotians.
Mr. Speaker, we in the Opposition, certainly speaking on my own behalf as well as for those Nova Scotians that have contacted me, are extremely concerned about the manner in which this government has brought in these two initiatives and we are concerned about the provisions contained therein. We are attempting and have been attempting, under the Rules of this House, with every means available to us to try to force this government to change, to amend in ways that will improve and that will mitigate some of the effects of this legislation.
Mr. Speaker, we have been attempting to get these kinds of changes. What else are we expected to do in this House? What are Opposition members expected to do, other than to stand up in the face of extraordinary legislation that we are opposed to, that many of our constituents are opposed to and that many Nova Scotians are opposed to? What are we supposed to do, other than to rise in our places and to use whatever means are at our disposal, to try to bring changes forward? We have attempted to do that.
In a piece in one of the local newspapers today it is interesting to note that the columnist suggested that enough debate had gone on. But then he went on to speak specifically about the Workers' Compensation Act and to raise a number of the concerns that we have raised in this House, reasons why that bill, in fact, needed to be changed, the fact that the changes being proposed in Bill No. 122 would exact a horrible price on injured workers in the Province of Nova Scotia and that was not fair and that those changes had to be made.
When I read that article, Mr. Speaker, I thought to myself, exactly. What am I supposed to do, as a member of the Opposition who is deeply concerned about the effects of that legislation? Am I supposed to sit here and when the government says to me, well sorry, MLA for Halifax Atlantic, but we are not going to make changes. Am I supposed to say oh, okay, all right? If that is the way it is, then I will take my seat because you have made a decision.
Mr. Speaker, that is not the way it works, that is not the way it has ever worked. That is not the way it worked when this group were in Opposition, it is not the way it has worked for the 176 years that this Legislature has been in effect. We have the opportunity here, in this House, we have always had the opportunity to try to bring forward changes and to try to pressure this government into making changes.
The reason why we have this kind of resolution imposed by a vast majority of government members is because they are completely unwilling to consider any concerns, any amendments, any changes being proposed by other members of this Legislature. It is almost like, how dare we? As the Government House Leader has referred to us as the rump of an Opposition Party, how dare we try to use the Rules of this House to bring about changes to legislation that we are deeply concerned with and that we care about and that we want to see happen? How dare we fight with every possible means, in order to try to protect and prevent bad legislation from going through this House.
Well, I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I don't apologize to anyone for the time and the effort that I have put in in this House debating these two pieces of legislation that I am deeply opposed to and that the people who talk to me are deeply opposed to. This government can sit smugly back, as the schoolyard bully or as the participants in a swarming might do, (Interruption) when they exact their pound of flesh, because of the fact that a minority has not bowed to their numbers and to their will. They can sit back smugly and do that.
I tell you what, that this member, regardless of the rules imposed by this group in order to try to silence me, that is not going to work. I am going to continue, as best I can, to argue the concerns that I have and the concerns that Nova Scotians bring to my attention and (Interruptions) whereas this government may not be prepared or willing to listen to the concerns that Nova Scotians bring forward, while they will stand and have stood and said, how can you possibly rationalize speaking for some considerable hours on the title of a bill, when we want to get on and deal with substantive changes? Well, this is the same government that on the casino bill, as soon as we moved on clause by clause, they switched to the worker's compensation bill. As soon as we moved on to clause by clause on the workers' compensation bill, they moved in a closure motion. (Interruptions)
This is the same government that has said repeatedly, through the offices and the responsibility of the Government House Leader, we are open to discussion; we are open to negotiation; we are willing and eager to participate with the Opposition Parties in order to get the business of the House done, who have refused each and every opportunity to do just that very thing.
As late as yesterday morning, the Government House Leader said on the radio, again, well, we are willing to talk to the Opposition Parties about dealing with this matter. What happened? Let's just talk about the real facts and not that twisted interpretation of what actually is going on that is often presented by members of this government outside this House and inside. (Interruptions)
I immediately faxed and it was confirmed that a letter was received by the office of the minister (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Order, order, order. (Interruptions) Order, please! I am saying order, please. Please be seated. I want to ask all honourable members of the House to allow this member to complete his speech. He has the right to address the House without interruption and heckling, and I would ask that there be silence so that he can continue and complete his speech. Thank you.
MR. CHISHOLM: So, as late as yesterday, in response to the claim by the Government House Leader that, we are open, willing and anxious, in fact, to discuss and negotiate, right up to the time that we deal with this motion. I corresponded with the Government House Leader and it was confirmed that it was received in his office, both in his departmental ministerial office and the Liberal caucus office, at 10:00 o'clock. Yet, there was no response. As I understand from the Opposition House Leader, he phoned and spoke to the Government House Leader about responding to that same challenge. What happened? In both cases nothing from the Government House Leader.
In other words, again, as has been over the past two weeks, the offer to negotiate the supposed and oft-stated willingness to cooperate and to resolve these matters was hollow. It had no substance because this government has not once been committed to try to resolve these matters and try to deal with the concerns raised by Opposition members and raised by many Nova Scotians. That is a shame. As a result, what do we have?
Six weeks after, the Government House Leader makes a pledge here in this Chamber that no rules should be changed by one Party, that they are a government of compromise and reform and they believe categorically that matters in terms of rule changes should be referred to the House committee responsible for those changes. Yet, here we have a motion to change the rules, forever and a day, that have been brought in without consultation with the Opposition, without consideration of the rules by the Committe on Assembly Matters, without any discussion with Opposition Party House Leaders.
So I don't care how many ways that this government goes outside these Chambers and tries to misrepresent the facts, Mr. Speaker, that is the way things have developed in this Chamber and that is why we are at this stage because this government has been unwilling and ill-prepared to deal in a responsible and constructive manner with the business of this House.
[8:30 a.m.]
Mr. Speaker, am I proud about the position we are in today? No, I can tell you, I am not. As a member of this Legislature, I am not happy at all to be participating in a process to change the rules - rules that have never existed in this House of Assembly - that represent the fact that members of this House, of the government and the Opposition, have not been able to resolve problems and have not been able to reach a compromise on the business of Nova Scotia.
I am not proud of the fact that I am a participant in that and that I have not been able, Mr. Speaker, to try to facilitate, in any way whatsoever, and participate in achieving that kind of compromise. I do take some responsibility for that, because as members of this House of Assembly, I think we are all obligated to take some responsibility for the conduct of business in this House. Whereas for decades and decades, while it is not necessarily the best way, it is not pretty, it is part of the rules and traditions of this House that the only way that the Opposition has to try and bring about changes when there is a matter before them that is of sufficient concern, is to participate in debate and to raise those concerns as often as we possibly can within the confines of the Rules of this House.
That has been done before, even in my short term in this House, Mr. Speaker, and it has had some effect. Not wholesale effect, wholesale changes have not happened to bills that have been a concern of mine and of the Opposition, but there have been occasions when there have been changes made that have satisfied me and that have allowed me to sit back and let a bill got through.
Under the same circumstances, here in 1994-95, we have two pieces of legislation that are among the most extraordinary, controversial pieces of legislation that this government has brought forward in this Legislature in its short term. I have been sufficiently committed to try and bring about changes in that legislation, that I have exercised my right in this House to participate extensively in order to try and bring forward those changes.
What has been the result, Mr. Speaker? Unfortunately, the government has not seen fit to respond to my concerns or the concerns of other members of the Opposition or to the concerns of Nova Scotians that we brought forward in this Chamber. Instead, the response has been, you, MLA from Halifax Atlantic and your colleagues, have no right to try to force us into making changes. That is what the government is saying through this motion.
AN HON. MEMBER: They are telling Nova Scotians to be quiet.
MR. CHISHOLM: They are telling Nova Scotians, very clearly, that you elected us in 1993 to run this province and we are going to do that, no matter what you say, until the next time the election comes and then you have your opportunity. That is why Nova Scotians and all Canadians, I would suggest, are so sick and tired with the parliamentary democracy right now and are so cynical. It is because of the fact that they don't feel they have any opportunity to hold their governments accountable from one election to the other. Because governments like this get elected on the basis of certain platforms and certain promises and they come in to this House and other Legislative Assemblies across this country and they thumb their noses at the people who voted them in.
Nova Scotians, like other Canadians, say to themselves, what is the point? We elect these guys on the basis of one thing and they turn around and they do another. In between, we have no opportunity to hold them accountable, Mr. Speaker. Well, in this province we have had a means to try and hold the government accountable, as limited as it is. But it is unrestrained debate on clause by clause in Committee of the Whole House in order to bring those kinds of concerns. But, no, that is too much because that provides an opportunity for those concerns to come to the light of public, to come to the light of the media, which, inevitably, as it has in this case, puts heat on this government; puts more pressure on this government to be responsible and to be accountable. Shame on us for having done that.
So, in response, this government, Mr. Speaker, unlike any administration in the history of this province, under this Legislature, has taken upon itself to bring about arbitrary, unilateral changes to the House of Assembly, that, as the Government House Leader said, some six weeks ago, will have to meet the test of time, even though they were not responsible, constructively dealt with by the committee of this House responsible for that task.
Mr. Speaker, I agree with the headline today that it is a sad day for Nova Scotia. This government has taken upon itself to change the Rules of this House unilaterally and that is not, as far as I am concerned, a sign of a healthy parliamentary democracy in the Province of Nova Scotia. But we will continue, as will other Nova Scotians, as best we can to hold this government accountable and to bring our concerns and the concerns of Nova Scotians to this Legislature and to hold this government accountable. Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member of Hants West has already had his turn when he moved the adjournment and that motion was defeated.
MR. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I did rise to move adjournment of the debate but, however, I did not say one single word on the motion itself.
MR. SPEAKER: The record of Hansard indicates that the honourable member rose and participated in the debate by moving that the debate be now adjourned. He had that right and had the motion carried, then, presumably, he could have continued. But the motion was defeated, so the member loses his turn.
MR. JOHN HOLM: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. For clarification, it was my recollection, and I could be wrong in this, but I just seek clarification, that the member had moved that the House adjourn, not that the debate adjourn. If that is the case, then it is two very different items. If he had moved that the House be adjourned, then he was not actually taking part in the debate.
MR. SPEAKER: We had a whole hour yesterday afternoon of bell ringing and the matter that was being voted on at that time was that the debate on Resolution No. 1563 be adjourned. I thought that that matter had been canvassed very sufficiently yesterday afternoon but, perhaps, some were not aware that the honourable member for Hants West rose, at Page 6534 of Hansard and participated in the debate on Resolution No. 1563 as follows: "MR. RONALD RUSSELL: I move that the debate on Resolution No. 1563 be now adjourned.", and various members called for a recorded vote.
Now, by the Rules of the House, that constitutes the participation of the honourable member in the debate on the resolution.
Are there further speakers to the resolution?
MR. TERENCE DONAHOE: Mr. Speaker, is it possible, as I think perhaps it is, that by way of unanimous consent of the House, as it is clear that the honourable member for Hants West made no substantive contribution relative to the subject matter, that I would ask that you seek whether or not there is unanimous consent of the House that the honourable member be permitted to have his opportunity to address the substance of the resolution which is before us.
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance.
HON. BERNARD BOUDREAU: Mr. Speaker, the honourable House Leader - oh, he has returned - to be apprised of the situation - perhaps there might be another speaker called and the honourable House Leader might be given an opportunity to consider the request.
MR. SPEAKER: Well, I can only say that the House can do anything it wishes by unanimous consent.
There is not unanimous consent.
The honourable member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley.
MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I would have preferred to follow the Leader of our Party but, obviously I cannot. I do want to say that almost immediately upon assuming power to govern this Province of Nova Scotia, this government started to demonstrate what laid down the road ahead for Nova Scotians, Nova Scotians who elected this Party. From day one, we learned immediately what we could expect.
This government has hurt the very people who elected it. It has hurt the people in many ways; it has hurt them economically and it has hurt them socially. The Minister of Community Services knows full well that he tried to hurt Nova Scotians in a social manner when he tried to take away the shelter component of the living allowance for the mentally and physically challenged. Yes, that minister, part of that government, tried to take that away. That is just one of many heavy-handed efforts that this government made.
We have seen the government raise the provincial sales tax 1 per cent after promising not to do so. Any way you cut it, any way you multiply it, that is a 10 per cent increase in the provincial sales tax of this province. We have seen a 3 per cent tax on our power bills, a private utility; we are being taxed 3 per cent for using a private utility. We have seen new business service taxes put on, Mr. Speaker. We have seen this government stand up and say that this government will eliminate patronage, we have got a strong anti-patronage platform. This is a platform that is held up with four pillars and two of them are quality of life and another one is compassion. I suggest those very pillars that are holding up this government's platform are cracking and are falling apart.
Mr. Speaker, there is no question about it, we do have some objections to the legislation. Many bills that go through this House we do support, but the casino legislation and the workers' compensation legislation deserve conscientious objection.
Democracy is government by the people and it is an idea and an expression of freedom. This resolution hurts, again I say, the very people who it was intended to help. Now, if you want to go back in time just a little bit to May 1993, this government came to power, I believe, many members of this government came to power with the idea that it was going to make Nova Scotia a better place to live. But, immediately, this government started taking regressive steps and applied pressure upon Nova Scotians, pressure and taxes like never seen before.
What this resolution will effectively do - nobody is arguing it - is it will stifle, it will suppress, by force it will oppress many of us, many of us in Opposition. Mr. Speaker, when I came to this Legislature back on November 2, 1993, I came in as an Opposition member and the people of Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley knew that when they voted for me they were voting for Opposition. They knew they weren't voting for the government and they told me at many of the houses when I went to visit the people that it is time this government had some more opposition. Already, after barely six months in power, they are out of hand, they are wielding their heavy hand.
[8:45 a.m.]
Again, with Resolution No. 1563, we see the heavy hand again, there is no question about it, Mr. Speaker. So this government brought in some health reform measures and are still proceeding in that direction and most of us in this House realize that health reform is needed in this province. We tried to work with the minister in that respect, we raised some questions. I have raised some concerns about the regional health boards, the composition of the health boards and the member for Pictou West has also, as has the member for Pictou Centre.
We have many concerns. We realize that education in this province has to be reformed, we are not arguing those points. But when we come in here and make contributions to debate, such as the casino legislation, we are expressing the views and concerns of our constituents and of all Nova Scotians. For this government to try to suppress that, it is completely wrong. Never in the history of this province have rules and laws been made in this manner. It has always been by unanimous consent.
So, Mr. Speaker, this session which started back on October 27th of last year, the Opposition Party did their homework. Sometimes we meet three to four hours every day before the House sits and we represent our constituents and Nova Scotians. Again, the views and expressions that we bring forward are what we are hearing the people say about this government, a government that is out of control. There are many members in government, I would suggest and submit, backbenchers and perhaps even some in the Cabinet, who realize that the government is out of hand and it is controlled by a few, with very heavy hands.
I understand the NDP Government in Ontario used closure to limit debate on the casino legislation. It probably was done there to appease a multinational, as the Third Party likes to call it. (Laughter) Again, here, we are seeing it done in Nova Scotia. (Interruption) I would be pleased to take a question from the honourable Minister of Housing.
HON. GUY BROWN: A question, Mr. Speaker. The member is so committed to his Party and understands other Parties. I would like to know all the times that closure was brought in by the Brian Mulroney Government, which set a record. I wonder if he can tell this House who that appeased at that time, nationally?
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I would be pleased to answer that question the way I retort to some of the comments that this government throws back and forth about the 15 years previously and what about the Mulroney years and what about this and that. I will say that Jean Chretien and his government, when they came to power, you don't hear them whining all the time about the previous government.
They decided they would take the bull by the horns and try to do something and they will be accountable for their actions. To answer your question, I plan on living the rest of my life in the future and I want to be reasonably sure what that future is going to be. So if you want to live in the past, you are certainly well within your rights to live in the past. (Interruptions)
So what is being done here with the use of closure is an attempt to appease ITT Sheraton, and there is no way around it. Yes, you are trying to appease a multinational, no question about it, and it was done in Ontario.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I want less catcalling and heckling, please and let the honourable member have the floor.
MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now not so very long ago we were debating the gaming bill. But with a small Opposition, eight members, three members in the Third Party, the Minister of Finance needed a rest, he didn't like what he was hearing. He didn't like what Nova Scotians were saying and we did bring in over 42,000 names of people who were opposed to the establishment of casinos in this province. There are more out there. There are many more who are opposed to the establishment of casinos.
The minister and the government didn't like what they were hearing. They were going to be out of here on December 10th, we are coming in October 27th, we will have all this substantive, controversial legislation shoved through and rammed down the throats of Nova Scotians. That is what we will do. But, no, you couldn't do it so now you are taking away the democratic right of the Opposition, and you are taking it away without unanimous consent. Something that was never done before in the history of the oldest responsible seat of democracy in North America. You really should be proud of yourselves. You couldn't get the job done so you had to bring down the heavy hand again.
I think many members in the back bench have some questions about what is going on in the front bench of their government. You have a lot of questions, yes, and the chairman of that caucus has some questions. I know for a fact that that member is not satisfied with the gaming bill. Probably, if he had his choice, which he doesn't, he would stand up and be counted, if he had his choice and knew that he wouldn't feel the wrath of the Premier or the House Leader. He knows full well. (Interruptions)
AN HON. MEMBER: I will take my stand.
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, you take your stand, you have taken your stand a lot as you sit back there and heckle and cackle. That is all you do. Stand up. We saw in the paper the other day where some constituents were asking for their MLAs to stand up and get up off their derrières and be counted, but no, they will not. They will not stand up and be counted. But I think you should be speaking for your constituents.
What have you got to hide? We supported legislative reform and we brought forward papers, we brought forward documents asking for free votes in this Legislature, asking for free votes. We agreed to limit debate on some of the budgetary measures, by unanimous consent and that Government House Leader, the Minister of Transportation, Mr. Speaker, he brought down his heavy hand on the . . .
HON. RICHARD MANN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I would like to advise the member opposite that the debate on the budget matter was limited to 80 hours before he came here and it is still limited to 80 hours.
MR. SPEAKER: The reference is noted to the correct time allocation of the budget debate.
The honourable member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley has the floor.
MR. TAYLOR: I appreciate that member's contribution to this debate here this morning. Once in a while he will stand up and be counted, I will grant him that. I am not so sure that I like what he says most of the time, but he does stand up once in a while. I would encourage all members. We have tried time and time again to encourage, urge, stimulate, do what we can to get members to stand up for their constituents. But no, no, they would sooner sit back because of their fear of reprisal. They are scared. They have no courage. They wouldn't even table petitions. They walked by the petitions.
Now, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Transportation and Communications, back in I believe, it was late October or early October, decided to cut the salt hauling rate for the independent trucker, the small owner/operator, private enterprise. This is a government that . . .
MR. SPEAKER: I must intervene at this point. I have two points that I want to make. First of all, that I have had complaints from members about the effect on their ear drums of loud shouting. I just note that for what it is worth. We don't need to shout, we have an amplification system that carries all members' voices. If one could speak in a moderate tone of voice, it would be much easier on the ear drums of some of those who have to bear the din.
The second point that I wanted to make is that we are debating a resolution relating to the rules and forms of the House of Assembly and it has nothing to do with the matters to which the member is now relating. I would ask the member to please speak to the motion. Thank you.
MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I will try to tone down a decibel or two. I appreciate and respect your ruling, as per usual, but I do have to say that what I am pointing out is the reason we are at the stage we are today, I feel - this Resolution No. 1563 - is because this government could not get the job done. I am pointing out specific examples of where this government has turned their back. Again, they are turning their back on the very people who sent this government to power.
If I am to be sat down for saying I was extremely disappointed and shocked when this government announced that the Nova Scotia Youth Training Centre was going to close, so be it. I will sit down, Mr. Speaker, if you tell me. If I say that I was disappointed when I learned that the Nova Scotia Teachers College is going to close. If I said that I wasn't disappointed in that, I would still sit down if you should tell me to. There are many examples.
We have seen deputy ministers fired but we found $2.5 million to appease them. Oh yes, they received lovely packages. We saw Lucy Dobbin who came to work for how long? I don't think it was any more than six to nine months and this is the underlying problem with this government. That is why the Opposition is so adamant that the legislation that is before us be scrutinized very, very carefully. We had the Premier's shower installed, some $28,000. Yes, these are the types of things that instigated this resolution, yes they are.
The message I get from my constituents dictates how I will react to government legislation, there is no question about it. The public sector's wages were rolled back (Interruptions) Well, it isn't history because it is still affecting them in their pocketbook today, there is no question about it. I believe in being financially responsible. I have to be financially responsible in my home, I was always financially responsible in my business and I would suggest that my financial statements will indicate that I have been. I believe in being financially responsible but I also believe in being open-minded and flexible and standing up for ideals and principles that deserve to be stood up for, there is no question.
With those very few comments, I move adjournment of debate of Resolution No. 1563.
MR. SPEAKER: Well, I gave notice yesterday that I did not intend to entertain any further motions for adjournment, the reference being to Beauchesne; Paragraph 558 states that "(1) An old rule of Parliament reads: `The question being once made and carried in the affirmative or negative, cannot be questioned again but must stand as the judgment of the House.'". Yesterday afternoon the House judged that the debate on Resolution No. 1563 be not adjourned but proceed. Therefore, it will proceed.
The honourable member for Kings West.
MR. GEORGE MOODY: Mr. Speaker, it is not really a pleasure to rise and speak on Resolution No. 1563. I have been in this House, not as long as you, but since 1978. I have always tried not to abuse the time of the House and I doubt if you can count many times, except with the Address in Reply to the Throne Speech that I have taken a full hour of your time and the House's time on any issue. I always rise with the idea hopefully of bringing to the floor of this House some ideas or views that were expressed to me by others or ideas that I had pertaining either to legislation or a resolution. I always felt that that was a right that I obtained on the day that the voters in Kings West elected me, a right that I know that they would want me to fulfil in this Legislature. Unfortunately, I never thought that this government would move the way it moved.
I guess we have to ask ourselves, why do we have Resolution No. 1563? Well, I believe it is because of the attitude of this government that we have Resolution No. 1563. As I talked to many people from one end of this province to the other, they say that this government has an attitude of arrogance, not an attitude of openness, not an attitude that would allow them to make their feelings known to them. I know many people who have tried to get meetings with ministers, phone calls not returned, no meetings. Except the Minister of Education, I have to go back and say that he is very good at meeting. I shouldn't lump everybody together because that is not true; there are exceptions. I am talking about the majority. You know, when people do get meetings, they have to know that people are listening to their points of view.
[9:00 a.m.]
I am also amazed that the government brought in this resolution when the Premier was away. The Premier has worn a lot of mistakes made by this government. So, the people of this province have rated him lower than any other Premier in Canada. They have rated him lower because of the mistakes of this government. I suspect many of the mistakes of this government were not made by the Premier himself. So, I expect if the Premier had been here, we would not have had Resolution No. 1563.
It is the people from South End Halifax who are now running the government - because the Premier said when he went away, it wasn't the ministers in charge, it was his staff in charge - so, the South End staff will run the government. They made a decision for this group to follow and that was to invoke closure. Everybody in the caucus was told that is what you have to do, that is what we are going to do and you don't have a say because we are now making the decisions. So, with the Premier away, in comes the resolution.
As I have watched and read newspapers across the province and editorials that have been written, there isn't an editorial that doesn't say, why couldn't a compromise be reached? You know, Mr. Speaker, all the time I was here previously, compromises were able to be reached with all Parties of the House. Sometimes there were times when it looked like we might be at an impasse. But because the government of the day and the two Parties, especially the government of the day, the House Leader, took the lead to work out an impasse.
I find it very strange that this government operates in a dictatorial way. In no way does it want to work with anybody. In no way does it want input from anybody. They have their small group of individuals who are running the government. It is not being run by 41 members, it is being run by a few. They make the decisions and there is no discussion. There isn't even any discussion here on the floor of the Legislature.
Yesterday, I think many of us in this Legislature were very upset. I think it was a very sad day. The government not only changed the resolution and for the first time we saw the rules change, the new precedent set in this House, condoned by you, Mr. Speaker, not taking into consideration the many years this House has sat. We end up now with a resolution different from the one that was formerly introduced and we cannot even make an amendment to even improve or try to improve the resolution.
To me, I was always proud to be a Nova Scotian and proud of the rights and privileges of this House, and proud of the way this Legislature has been conducted. I am not proud any more. I am ashamed. I don't think many members who are new in here realize the traditions and how important the precedents that have been set in this House are. They take it as a grain of salt, so our rules change overnight, precedents broken for no reason.
If that motion was going to be introduced properly, why couldn't it have been done that way on Tuesday, January 24th. Again, the government is being dishonest, sneaky, not coming clean and that is the kind of government that people have learned to hate in this province. That is why this government has the lowest rating of any government in Canada. That is why this government is becoming very unpopular, because it is not open. It is not upfront with people. It is not genuine, it is fake.
When this Party, this government, ran for office, they talked about democracy and they talked about the government being responsible to people. They talked about it being open and that its activities be scrutinized by the public and the Opposition. This government does not want to be scrutinized by anybody. The minute you try to make any kind of suggestion, it turns them off. It is like, don't talk to me. It is like a big bully, big brother. Don't talk to me. I know what is best for everybody.
Now, there are not many governments in Canada or people that are trying to play God. This government is trying to do that. This government has always said, whatever we say is right. Don't question it. Don't talk about it. Don't tell me there are problems with it, because we know there are not.
This Liberal Government said this House should sit more. There should be two sittings and there will be accountability. It should sit more, they said. Well, now they want to sit less. Were they not telling the truth? Were they saying that we are going to tell everybody that we are going to have this openness but, boy, once we get there, it is not going to happen?
You know, Mr. Speaker, we had and have a couple of controversial pieces of legislation. The casino legislation has been very controversial. It is the only legislation in the history of this House that has had petitions signed by over 40,000 people, the only one. You know, I have had a lot of calls. There have been a lot of polls taken and all those polls indicate that casinos are not the way to go in Nova Scotia.
Do people have any rights? Do people have any way of coming down here? This government has now made this like a fortress. It does not have freedom like it used to have, to get in. You cannot even reach these people. I am sure in Russia you can reach the heads of government easier than you can reach them here. So, how do people get their message to the government? They get their message to the government through the Opposition. We have to carry their message. We carry their message in the form that we know best and the form is here in the legislation. Everybody has the right to speak in this Legislature. All members have that right to speak and that is a privilege and some members use it more than others, but that is their right, too. If you want to sit on your hands and catcall, that is your privilege, even though that catcalling is not allowed.
AN HON. MEMBER: That is if you are a Liberal and the Speaker is in the Chair.
MR. SPEAKER: I hear a very disrespectful interjection there from the back bench and I would ask that disrespectful references to the Speaker not be uttered.
MR. MOODY: That was not me, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: I know it wasn't. I said it was from the back bench behind you.
MR. MOODY: I might have been thinking it, but I was not saying it.
MR. SPEAKER: However, I will also say that the honourable member is quite right that there ought not to be catcalling and, again, I would ask that the catcalling cease.
MR. MOODY: So, I was saying that one of the avenues that the public have of expressing their concerns about legislation of any kind, is through the Opposition. We have met, and I know the NDP have met and I am sure that people have tried to meet with government about legislation and about amendments and things that could be changed and all of that. It is incumbent upon the Opposition to raise all of those issues here on the floor of the House, because in many cases, like the workers' compensation bill, it is going to affect a lot of injured workers. And who is going to be their voice?
I know we have to bring some sort of balance to our legislation. I recognize the fiscal restraint we are in but there has to be a balance. We have to be able to bring a balance to the legislation that is here.
My problem with this resolution is that you could have 20 hours by one Party on the debate and the other Party never gets to talk about the clauses. I am thinking to myself, that is not fair either. If you are going to change the rules, then do it in a way that allows fairness straight through, so that if some Party decides it is best to spend 20 hours on the title, how can the other Party - it might be us, it might be them - ever get in to talk about the clauses that I feel are so important.
So, if we are going to make rule changes, let's make them so they will work, so that we can't spend 20 hours on the title, that we will allow time to go through the clause by clause debate. As I have always felt and I have said this many times, that in Committee of the Whole House on Bills, we should be, and it is important, to go through them clause by clause. No matter how good the people are who put them together, and no matter how many times the minister may have gone over it, sometimes there is another view or another interpretation that may make that clause better. Sometimes I have seen governments bring in amendments when we are going through clause by clause because they have discovered that after having looked at it and representation, they feel that some of the clauses need to be changed.
What happens, Mr. Speaker, if we spend 20 hours on the title, where do we get the clause by clause changes? So if we are going to restrict, let's do it in a wise way, let's do it in a way that has meaning and allows the democratic process to work.
I believe this resolution was not well thought out. It is attempting to solve a problem that the government now has. I believe that if some thought had really been given to the rule changes, a change could have been made that we all would have been happier with, that would have worked better and allowed the process to flow. This doesn't allow the process to flow, this allows another problem, in my mind, that could occur. Are we then not smart enough to figure out that if problems are going to occur, we should be smart enough to make the rules change to deal with this problems and not afterwards? So, Mr. Speaker, I would have been much happier had we addressed the issue.
Now I know that the government made a commitment to ITT Sheraton and ITT Sheraton is probably a little embarrassed for telling the government to get on with it, you promised that you would have this through by the middle of January and now you don't. What is wrong? We are from the United States, we can count, you have 41 members, there are only 11 over there, what is your problem? I am sure that they can't figure out why there is a problem.
I have to tell you, Mr. Speaker, a month and one-half ago I saw there was a problem. The government didn't move to address it in a way that could have solved the problem and had us move on. No, they saw the problem, too, a month and one-half ago. They didn't take any kind of leadership but they are the government, they claim to have leadership and I can't imagine why they didn't try to resolve it. Instead of that, all we were hearing in the media and all that was being shouted at us was, move on, we will threaten you, move on or we will impose closure. Never mind trying to resolve it as grown people would resolve it by sitting around the table. All of us know that there can be differences among us but I am willing to bet that there isn't any of us that couldn't sit around the table and come to a reasonable resolve to any problem. (Interruptions) Yes, I met with the Minister of Finance and I think I could sit with the Minister of Finance and find a reasonable resolve.
[9:15 a.m.]
I think that the point I am making is that, I guess there should have been more at the table than him and I, the point I am making is that there are always resolves if the will is there. It is amazing to me, this Legislature is 175 years old and there was always the will to resolve until now. What has changed? Are we any different? I don't think we are any different, I think there is just as much will in this Legislature to sit down as there was 175 years ago. The problem is the government has got itself into a position and couldn't find a way out and said, we will enforce closure. Maybe this closure is for another day, maybe it is for the spring sitting, I don't know. I have no idea why or the rationale that the decision was made to bring in closure.
Always, the Committee to look at Rules and Forms of Procedure, always came back with unanimous agreement to changes, no question. We understand that in 1995 things are different than in 1895 but the process should never change. World-wide, the process never changes. Any government that will be remembered for taking away freedom of speech won't sit well with a lot of people in this province.
A lot of people in this province, in my constituency and I try to explain it to them, they think I sit year round. If I am home on a Monday or Tuesday when this House isn't sitting, they will say, why aren't you in the Legislature? They think that I am paid to sit here year round. Now, we all know that we don't but a lot of the general public think that that is true. And I say, yes, I am paid to go to the Legislature but I am paid to go there at the call of the government. I can't call the Legislature in, it is the government that calls the Legislature in and I go there when they call the Legislature. (Interruptions)
Well, you see, you can't have it both ways. First they said the Legislature didn't sit enough and now they are saying it sits too much. Where are you going to get a happy medium? I can't figure this out. One time they don't want it to sit and now they want it to sit. I can't figure this out. All I know is that we are going backward as far as the Rules of this House is concerned.
This government after almost two years, and I have watched them, any time anything goes wrong they blame somebody else. They never get up and look in the mirror and say, just maybe we are not as perfect as we think we are. But it is hard to believe as I listen to them explain time and time again, when everything goes wrong it is either the Opposition's fault, the previous government's fault, the federal government's fault, somebody's fault, or it is some company's fault or community's fault or somebody's fault.
I was thinking many times I have admitted it was my fault, at least and I have gotten up on the floor of this House, as a minister, and indicated that I made a wrong decision. Every one of us can make wrong decisions.
AN HON. MEMBER: So have we; so have we.
MR. MOODY: I have not heard you. Anytime you get up, you blame it on somebody else. It is either a staff member that fouled up, somebody fouled up. It was not the minister. The minister never fouled up once. It is always somebody else.
This government will be remembered, no question, for the three Cs: they brought in consultants so they could hire and bring in their own friends, although they said there would be no patronage; they brought in casinos; and now they are bringing in closure. That is something to be proud of. I am sure that when you go around to your hustings and you tell your people back home, boy, we are some government; we've got closure. We've got casinos. We've hired consultants to get rid of those Tories and the other people. Boy, we are some good. It is only costing us millions of taxpayers' dollars now. We don't have any money but, boy, we can spend her. Just give us the opportunity and we will spend her. (Interruption)
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.
MR. MOODY: Democracy does come with a price. There is absolutely no question. Are we prepared to have democracy? We can have this place not sit at all, cost no money at all. That is not democracy. (Interruption) See, blame it on somebody else. Talk about somebody else. Don't talk about yourself. Don't look in the mirror. Just exactly what I said; that is proving my point. You always blame or talk about somebody else. You cannot stand somebody talking about you or any decision you made.
Mr. Speaker, as you know and I know, we all speak the truth when we are up here. That is what we have to do; that is part of our role. I find it very interesting, as I read the newspapers across this province. The newspapers talk about how this government has gone from one of openness, who started 30-60-90, and said we are going to consult, well, the only consulting they are doing now is how to deal with the problem they got with the Leader and that is a pretty closed shop. That is the only consulting they are doing. What happened to that open process, open meetings, open community meetings, allowing people to have input? What happened to all that? I don't know.
We talk about quality of debate. They are talking about the quality of debate on this side. I would not know about the quality of debate on the other side, because when you don't hear any, it is pretty hard to judge it. How can you judge quality when it is zippo? You can only judge it if you hear it or if you get up and speak. It is like the person said, don't criticize somebody else until you have actually done it. I have heard many people in this House shouting at members about the quality of debate and they have never gotten up and debated a bill in this House yet. But, yet, they criticize other people who are trying to get up and do their job. (Interruption)
Well, I think you know my views on the title. But I will tell you, Mr. Speaker, I have always believed the work was more on the clauses but, sometimes, in order to get the government's attention, you have to do what you don't want to do to try and get their attention. Then, when you get their attention, hey, we've got some problems here. Sure, you are talking on the title and you hope that somebody is listening.
But you know, Mr. Speaker, we had a heavy package this session. I don't ever recall having made four major bills like we have had this session. Sure, we have had a major bill or two, but not four. Then we have had other legislation; we have had a heavy agenda. The government says that is part of the reform. I will accept that. But then does the government think they have the right to come into this Legislature and say, we have a heavy package - they said that - we have a lot of reform, but you people over there in the Opposition, you keep quiet; you are going to be able to talk only a bit on this reform and that is it. You cannot, in any way, scrutinize the reform package that we think is so good for Nova Scotia.
Now part of our problem is, we don't feel all this reform that the government has brought in is good for Nova Scotia and now that creates a problem. Obviously, if you think you should not have casinos in this province, then you are going to oppose them and obviously you are going to oppose them in every way you can, and that is fair.
Now, you oppose them going into a session, knowing what the rules are. It is almost like a hockey game, Mr. Speaker. You have played hockey, but you never refereed but you played.
MR. SPEAKER: Oh, sometimes I did. A few times. More fun playing, though.
MR. MOODY: Oh, you were a referee, I didn't know that. I am sure that when you were a referee, they gave you the rule book and you never changed the rules half way through the game because your friends were losing, never. Nobody does. You may change them in the next game because you know they didn't work well, and I can understand that. But boy, there would be a riot on that bench if you changed the rules half way through the game.
AN HON. MEMBER: Someone might even get ejected.
MR. MOODY: Some might even get ejected. (Laughter)
That is what we have here, half-way through the game, half-way through the sitting, we had a rule change. You know, Mr. Speaker, I don't think we were any more upset than you or any other member would have been had you have that happen to you, and that was very disappointing. I think that is what this side and what we are saying to this government, if you want rule changes you do it through the proper procedure and you don't change the rules half-way through the game. To me, that is not fair, that is not being open and that is why we are upset.
You know, Mr. Speaker, we have had in this House, I think, a House that has accomplished many great things. We have had a process that has worked for many years and, all of a sudden, the process doesn't work any more. I hate to say the government is now saying, the reason we have to invoke closure is because it costs $6,000 a day. That's not it. Oh, it is because we made a commitment to ITT Sheraton. That's not it.
AN HON. MEMBER: And it's not the G-7.
MR. MOODY: And it is not the G-7. I thought it might have been the G-7, Mr. Speaker, it is not the G-7.
Now, is it because the backbenchers want to go home? (Interruptions) No, okay, they haven't asked, okay. Well, they all want to stay. Now they all want to stay and it is not the G-7, it is not that we have to get the casino legislation through and it is not because it costs $6,000 a day. Now, I am trying to figure out what it is that the government came up with the conclusion that on Tuesday they had to invoke closure. You see, I thought it was one of those reasons. Instead of that, I am confused as to what the reason is, other than that the government feels that when the House is sitting, and I can understand this, Mr. Speaker, that their mistakes get widely publicized by the media. That is not it? Oh, I thought that was it. (Interruption) Oh, so that's not it.
Well, if there is no reason to have closure, Mr. Speaker, I don't know why we are debating this. The government does not really have a reason but I suspect that all of those reasons I gave played a part in that decision, every one of those played a part in the decision.
[9:30 a.m.]
I believe (Interruption) not motives, facts, you have to have a reason or you don't do something, I would hope. So I think all of those reasons add up to closure and that is very, very unfortunate. I think the tension, the feeling and the goodwill that has always been here, some of that was lost yesterday and I am not sure that will ever be regained because when you lose that, you lose some respect for an institution and for a government. That is going to be very difficult for a government to gain back.
I hope that as we move forward that in somebody's wisdom, the rules will be changed, not by a resolution, but will be changed by a committee of all Parties that understand what it is we are trying to do. We are here representing people, that is what we are here for. When people call and say, I am sorry to bother you, I say, you are not bothering me, that is my job. My job is to represent you. My job is to call you back. My job is to express your views, that is what my job is.
I wonder if that is what everybody thinks their jobs are, is to represent people, their views and their ideas and to listen, to stand up for the people who have no voice here? So, if we are going to make a rule change, then the only way that I can see it happening, that I would have any respect for, is through that committee.
As I said, the Premier went away and I think that the reason the resolution wasn't introduced while he was here is because he would have to answer questions. We can't ask the Premier.
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Eastern Shore has asked to make an introduction.
The honourable member for Eastern Shore.
MR. KEITH COLWELL: Mr. Speaker, to you and through you I would like to introduce in your gallery a very prominent citizen from Three Fathom Harbour, Mr. Gordy Heatherington. I ask the House to afford him a warm welcome. (Applause)
MR. MOODY: Well, I welcome Mr. Heatherington to the Legislature too and I am sure that he understands what democracy is all about and freedom of speech is all about. People will come here and it is unfortunate that we, in this Legislature, sometimes get carried away with things. That sometimes makes me wonder and I too, sometimes, have gotten carried away and I think we have got to come back to the way that I used to know this Legislature, and that is a way that we can work together for the betterment of all the people we represent and do it in a way that we can be proud of.
Obviously, I am going to have to oppose this resolution but hope that the government of the day will see fit at some point in the very near future to allow the committee that looks at rules and privileges of this House, will call that committee together and will allow it to examine our rules in a way that it has been done in the past. I always find it strange that some of the people that voice their opinions and shout about the Rules of this House are first time people of this House. I find it very strange that they arrive on the scene and they now see what was wrong for 175 years and there is more to it than that.
The precedents of this House, a lot was right with what happened in this House and the precedents of this House, to me, are very important. I think it was bad enough to bring the rule in, to change the rules for our first, but to also set a precedent that there can be no amendments and break our rules that we worked hard to get, is very sad. I will go home this weekend with a very sad feeling about an Assembly that I was always proud to represent because it had that freedom and we did honour precedents and we followed the rules. All of a sudden that is all changed.
So, I have to say to my constituents that I don't know what the rules will be next week. I have no way of knowing, I used to know, because we did honour precedents and we did stick by the rules. I can't say that any more. I can't say that I can tell you this government will follow any rule, because rules mean nothing to this government. Precedents mean nothing to this government. That is a sad day, a very sad day. Maybe some people don't understand history or care about history or care about how important, you know, Joe Howe fought for the freedom of speech in this province. A very proud day. But I doubt if Joe Howe would be very happy if he were here today, and I am sure if he were looking down on us, would say, where have these people gone with democracy? What are these people doing?
Mr. Speaker, I am going to take my place but I hope in the future that my privileges and my rights as a member will not again be attacked as they have been in the last couple of days. I hope in some way, that this House can turn itself around and respect the rights and privileges of members and that the rules won't continue to be broken and new precedents set. If that continues to happen, I am sure many people in this province will let this government know when it comes voting time. I would just dearly love to go on the hustings any time, because I think that is not a problem, call an election tomorrow and I wouldn't be upset.
Mr. Speaker, I am going to vote against Resolution No. 1563 and I hope any member of this House who understands what it is we are doing to the precedents and the rules and privileges of this House will also vote against this resolution. Your rights and my rights are being violated. I hope you understand that when it comes to vote yes or no for this resolution. Thank you very much.
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Halifax Fairview.
MS. ALEXA MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, I rise to enter the debate on the resolution that is before us, to restrict debate in this House at the Committee of the Whole House level when we are dealing with legislation with very mixed feelings. I will, I am sure it won't surprise you to know, be voting against this particular resolution because I think that it is flawed in a number of important ways. It is flawed both in terms of its substance and in terms of the process whereby this government has chosen to introduce this restrictive measure.
Mr. Speaker, I must say that the events of the House in the last 24 hours have for me been without a doubt, the low point of my 14 years in this Legislature. Not just because of the spectacle that went on here yesterday, not just because of the disorderliness and, really, the sense of a kind of breakdown of the whole legislative process that I think was revealed to Nova Scotians, (Interruptions) but because I think yesterday's events were really the culmination of a very disturbing trend that has developed in this Legislature and I think that does not serve Nova Scotians well.
I have to say that my revulsion for the rule changes that are in the resolution that is before us and for the, really, quite revolting spectacle that occurred here yesterday, does not have nearly as much to do with how adverse the working conditions have become in this Chamber as my revulsion has to do with an erosion, I think, not just of the democratic process that goes on within this Chamber but, far more seriously, an erosion of the respect for the democratic process that is occurring in this province as a result of what is taking place today, both in this Chamber and outside of the Chamber in the name of politics.
I don't want, Mr. Speaker, although it is tempting to do so, but I think it would not be completely accurate to do so, to blame all of that on the current government, because it is so easy for us to stand here and say, this horrible mess that we are in is totally the responsibility of the Savage Government and try to leave it at that and then think of all the sins that we can trot out to make the case.
But I think that it has to be recognized that there are rules and procedures in place in Legislatures and Parliaments everywhere where democracy is supposed to be safeguarded and is supposed to be valued by people. There are rules and procedures in place that absolutely must stand the test of time. I suppose, in that sense, Mr. Speaker, you would have to say that Parliaments and Legislatures are somewhat conservative institutions. I sort of grate at the notion of working in such a conservative institution. But something in the nightmare that has developed in this session of this Legislature, since this government came to power, has led me again and again to reflect upon the whole notion of what is parliamentary or legislative debate? What are these rules and procedures?
I guess there would be some members that were in this House as far back as I was, in the early 1980's, that would get a chuckle at my saying so, but I have actually developed a good deal of understanding, appreciation and respect for what some of the traditions and rules of the Legislature are really all about. The reason I say some people will no doubt chuckle is because it is no secret to anybody that I did not have the slightest understanding of the Rules of this House and I had very little appreciation, frankly, for a lot of the procedures that went on, in my early years in this House. And, perhaps, admittedly, Mr. Speaker, that was because, more often than not, the rules were used against me than was I able, in any way, to be able to use the rules to try to do the job as I saw it, that my constituents had elected me to enter this Chamber and do on their behalf.
Mr. Speaker, before very long, I began to take seriously the incredible love and affection and admiration and respect that a veteran member of my Party, who still sits in the House of Commons, built up over his very long career, that, of course, is Stanley Knowles and there won't be anybody in this Chamber, I am sure, who doesn't know Stanley Knowles. There are very few Canadians who don't know and understand what Stanley Knowles' contribution has been to Canada. Anybody who cares about veterans, about widows and about the unemployed will all understand the champion that Stanley Knowles is and really a hero for all Canadians.
[9:45 a.m.]
What is probably less known about Stanley Knowles is that he was and remains to this day, an absolute champion, not just of democracy, not just in some broad, vague sense of the democratic process, but a champion and an authority of the rules and procedures that govern parliamentary democracy.
Mr. Speaker, when I was preparing to enter the debate on this resolution about which I have a very heavy heart, I was led to refer to a book on the life of Stanley Knowles, actually done by a Nova Scotian, Gerry Harrop, entitled, Advocate of Compassion: Stanley Knowles in the Political Process. I want to quote two sentences from that book; "Knowles' third priority . . . ", this was a discussion of what his commitments were throughout his entire life in political life, "Knowles' third priority was parliamentary reform which must not simply cut down on opposition talk. Rather, there must be provision for the parties in the House to agree on time limits for each debate."
Now, no doubt, Mr. Speaker, there will be some members who might want to say, ah ha, you see, even Stanley Knowles argued that there should be appropriate time limits for debate. And, indeed he did, and I want to make it very clear, as I have always done, as my Leader has always done, as a member of the Assembly rules committee, as my House Leader has done again and again throughout this session, we, the New Democratic Party, are not only in favour of bringing in appropriate rules, as they relate to the stages of legislative debate on bills, but we have always been willing to cooperate and have, in fact, introduced proposals for limiting debate in this House, for example, when it came to estimates.
My colleague, the member for Sackville-Cobequid, in fact, fought for rule changes, introduced proposed rule changes to limit debate in the estimates process, and they are a matter of public record, Mr. Speaker, so members can guffaw if they want, catcall, do whatever they want, but my colleague introduced very specific amendments in the instance of dealing with supply; for example:
"(a) A minister introducing his/her Estimates, and in reply one Member on behalf of the Official Opposition and one Member on behalf of each recognized Party, shall not speak longer than fifteen minutes in Committee of the Whole on Supply.
(b) Every other Member shall not speak longer than 10 minutes during the debate of a Minister's Estimates.
(c) The time limits on speeches in Committee of the Whole on Supply do not apply to questions and answers dealing with information or policy that is strictly relevant to the item under discussion.".
Mr. Speaker, we have not been opposed to limitations. Let me say for the record as well, one of the reasons why we were absolutely outraged yesterday at the manoeuvre in which the Government House Leader engaged and, we believe, with far too much complicity and compliance by the Speaker himself, one of the reasons that we were so outraged is because we had some very reasonable amendments that we intended to bring forward, that I want to table for the record because those were amendments that were prepared to this Resolution No. 1563 dealing with the Rules of the House.
Mr. Speaker, I have to say frankly, that we are not just in this process alone - the 52 members of this House - but the media also play a very important role. They play the role as the watchdogs and I will fight to the limit to protect the freedom of the press to do their important job. But when in this Chamber the Government House Leader brings in the kind of restriction that he brought in yesterday and says, we have to first limit the rules and do it unilaterally and then we are not going to permit any amendments having brought in the rule changes, then that not only shows a profound disrespect for the rights and the privileges of 52 members that are elected to this House to represent their constituents, it also severely curbs the opportunities that we have to introduce improvements.
Just as we have tried to do in this session and over the years by introducing amendments to bills, it was our intention yesterday to introduce some very reasonable amendments to try to improve the rules. We don't like the process, we don't like the way they came in but we sit here in the corner with three members and they, with all of their might and muscle have 41 members and they can darn well do what they please, a lot of the time appearing to be accountable to no one but themselves.
But when we have our opportunity to even introduce amendments, completely cut off, then that also interferes with the job that members of the press have to do because then they are not in a position to report the truth that we were not interested in dragging out procedurally the debate yesterday on these arbitrary, unilateral rule changes but what we were interested in doing - and I will remain furious at the Government House Leader for interfering with this - was to at least put out the truth and the truth was that we were prepared to introduce the following amendment to this legislative rule change and we are not now even permitted to introduce it, let alone debate it. But thank goodness there is no means to totally put the clamps and silence Opposition members, we at least have an opportunity to participate in limited debate on this very restrictive measure.
Mr. Speaker, I want it understood for the record that we were prepared to propose and had prepared and were ready to circulate an amendment that said: "(c) adding to Clause 1 of the Schedule the following two subsections: (4) A minister introducing a bill in Committee of the Whole House, and in reply one Member on behalf of the Official Opposition and one Member on behalf of each recognized Party, shall not speak longer than twenty minutes in Committee of the Whole House on Bills. (5) Every other Member shall not speak longer than 15 minutes at a time during debate in Committee of the Whole House on Bills, except that the Minister responsible for a bill may speak for five minutes after each other Member's speech.".
Mr. Speaker, the reason I make a reference to the role of the media is that we all bear a responsibility to try to safeguard and protect democracy and to try to improve both the democratic process and the output, the product, the results of the democratic process and that means we are all in this together. The government knows that if we are permitted to engage in lengthy debates in this House, then the press will also have an opportunity to do their job.
When this government decides in its wisdom that it is going to bring in casino legislation absolutely contrary to what they had committed to the people of Nova Scotia that they would do on this matter, and they then launch a complete farce of a consultative process as they did through the Committee on Community Services, abusing some of the most important traditions of this House which is that committees are to be all-Party processes and then they decide to ignore what the public had to say on the subject and then they enter into a deal with a foreign multinational corporation, in advance of it even being legal in this province to operate a casino, and then they want members of this House to lie down and die in the face of this casino legislation because we are interfering with their getting on with implementing the agreement that they have entered into against the law, because the law does not even now permit the operation of casinos, then one has to ask the question, who is abusing the democratic process? Who is abusing the rules of this House?
Mr. Speaker, one of our jobs is to make sure that the public have as many facts and figures as they can have to come to a conclusion about whether the government that they elected and whether the 52 members that they elected to this House of Assembly, to protect and represent their interests, are doing a good job on their behalf or not doing a good job on their behalf.
One of the few ways that we have of playing our part in that process is to get information out, so let me say, Mr. Speaker, quite clearly, I make no apologies for this, but it is not always understood by members of the public. I have to say, that in playing their role, members of the Press Gallery do not always act totally responsibly, either, in this regard. One of the things that we engage in in this House, for which we make no apologies, from time to time is the tactic of delay. The rules permit it and if we abuse the rules by delaying unreasonably, irresponsibly, then the public will make their judgment. If we delay the casino legislation because we believe that people should know and understand what is in that ITT Sheraton agreement, and it is going to take a lot of time to get that information out, we will use the rules of this House, always subject to being called to order, always subject to the Speaker reining us in, always subject to points of order - which are completely fair and within the rules, for members to stand up and state - always subject to the disapproval of the public, if they think we have gone too far.
But, Mr. Speaker, we believe that when this government enters into a deal with ITT Sheraton and then we are caught in a legislative conundrum in this House that forbids us in the debate on the bill to talk about the ITT Sheraton deal, that we have to act responsibly to use whatever powers we have to find a way to get that information out to the public and that is the sin that we have committed. We have committed the sin of saying, within the allowable rules, we will drag out debate to get people a chance to know the truth about something that they care deeply about and that they are strenuously opposed to, namely this government sponsoring and promoting casino gambling, increased levels of video lottery gambling in this province, and who knows how unregulated the bingo gambling is going to be allowed to continue.
Mr. Speaker, this is what this debate is about, because this government put in place rules that said nobody can go and just get a copy of the ITT Sheraton agreement so they will know. Why can't they? Because, I guess, ITT Sheraton said let's have some restrictions. Maybe ITT Sheraton did not even need to say that, maybe, on behalf of this government, staff are acting in accordance with the wishes of this government and they say there will be one copy of the ITT Sheraton agreement available to you.
If you want to sign up, make an appointment, you have a chance to come down here and copy information. You cannot copy it on a photocopier, you have to make notes about it so you are not going to have any authoritative information. But if you can get a peek, if you can get yourself to Halifax, if you can get the time off work to go during office hours to have a peek at the information about the agreement, then that is this government's notion of freedom of information.
[10:00 a.m.]
Mr. Speaker, people should know the truth, that when we stand up in this House and say - and are ruled out of order - is it really what Nova Scotians want, to bring in commercial casinos in this province that are going to absolutely rape us of some of our important traditions? Is it the wish of Nova Scotians to bring in commercial gambling in this province that is going to literally rob us of resources that we need in this province for very important purposes? We need that money to be here, to use for health and community services and education. Is it in the interests of Nova Scotians for them to not have access to the information that would allow them to understand that the expenses that are being deducted from the revenues in the operation of casinos are somewhere between 60 per cent and 65 per cent of the revenues?
Mr. Speaker, that is what this debate is about. This debate is about whether our opportunity to do our job to get that kind of information out to people is going to be restricted or not, and our opportunity to even stand in this place and share that kind of information is going to be permitted, so that responsible members of the press and not just the ones in the Press Gallery but all across the province, are going to have their opportunity to share that information with people. That is what this debate is about. (Interruption)
Mr. Speaker, this debate is not only about trying to shut down on the casino bill discussion going on out there, it is also about workers' compensation. We have heard over and over again government members say, you are just wasting the time. They have taken a page out of Donald Cameron's book because they thought it really rang true. I would not have thought they liked the results and the verdict from Nova Scotians on it, but Donald Cameron said it is costing $6,000 a day to operate this place.
At least Donald Cameron was not such a hypocrite that he called the Legislature in to pretend that there was a democratic process going on. At least he had the guts to tell the truth, which is that he didn't believe enough in this process to even let it go on. So he didn't call the House in, or he didn't introduce a Speech from the Throne, so that the wide-ranging debate on behalf of people could take place.
AN HON. MEMBER: That is not what you said at the time.
MS. MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, it is the hope . . .
AN HON. MEMBER: Look at Hansard and read what you said at the time.
MS. MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, I am willing to be judged for every word I have ever uttered in this House in Hansard. What I am saying is there is only one thing worse than someone who doesn't believe enough in the democratic process to respect the traditions of this House and yet is hypocrite enough to run for political office, and that is someone who pretends they respect the parliamentary traditions and pretends they respect the democratic process and we will sit here in this House, as dumb as oysters, because that is also what this debate is about.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MS. MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, let me use the workers' compensation bill as an example of why we are in this mess today. This government signalled to Nova Scotians that the workers' compensation bill was pretty well ready. The Minister of Labour indicated, in the spring session, he is on public record as saying, the bill is pretty well ready. They did not introduce it in the spring session because they said there was already an overloaded agenda.
Mr. Speaker, during the summer, the Minister of Labour, I am sure will not deny this, I pleaded with him to get out there and engage in a good faith, public consultation, and, in particular . . .
AN HON. MEMBER: He was.
MS. MCDONOUGH: He was not participating in a good faith public consultation, I beg to differ with my colleague, the member for Kings North. The Minister of Labour said to me in the summer months that the bill was ready and that it would be dealt with as soon as we got into the fall session. You know what this government did, Mr. Speaker? In a crass, cynical exercise to create the appearance of consultation, to create the appearance of openness, after the legislation was already drafted, they put out a discussion paper. Did the discussion paper contain what this bill ended up containing? No. You know what? It was an abuse of the democratic process to pretend that that discussion paper was an accurate reflection of what the government intended to do.
When this government brought in this bill, it knew perfectly well it was going to be bringing it in the spring and in the summer months, when it was continuing to use the excuse that we did not have the new bill for not dealing with almost 2,000 claimants awaiting their rightful appeals, this government brought in a bill that bore no relationship to either what they indicated to Nova Scotians they were going to do, nor any relationship to what the workers in this province, through many different voices, indicated that they were desperately in need of this government doing.
So, we get into debate, Mr. Speaker. It is very clear that this government is not prepared to entertain any reasonable amendments. That was very clear. We tried every single means that we could - and I make no apologies for this, I don't even like the word - but we were willing to make a deal with this government to say, if you will address some of the most repugnant aspects of this bill, if you will recognize that there are some very fundamental flaws in this bill that have to be addressed, then we will agree to limit our debate on many of the other aspects of the bill that we don't like, that the rules allow us to debate, ad nauseam, because that is what it is like, as well, to be on your feet during all those speeches. It is not just you that are bored by our tedious arguments, we get kind of bored by them, too. But we said, we will make a deal.
That is the reality of what goes on in a Legislature, if there is responsibility being taken on both sides to try to resolve these problems. We did not get one tiny, little millimetre of a concession from this Government House Leader on behalf of this government to introduce one, single reasonable amendment. You know what, Mr. Speaker, what this government counted upon was that the people of Nova Scotia would never really understand much of anything about this workers' compensation so-called reform, but one thing; actually, they were hoping that people would understand two things. One, that we have a very serious and mounting unfunded liability that is going to jeopardize that fund; it is going to jeopardize workers' compensation. They hoped that that would be just about the only thing, and do you know what they counted on? They counted on an irresponsible Press Gallery and they counted on media people across this province, I am talking about the crass cynicism of this government that doesn't respect the democratic process enough to even permit a free press to do their job properly.
This government felt sure that if they could curb the debate and limit how much we got to talk about the ill-considered measures in this bill, that their apologists out there in the media, the ones that write the supposed news, you know the Arnie Pattersons and the Pat Connellys would just keep screaming and yelling about the unfunded liability. They also counted, cynically and wrongly, on the press to keep saying, do you know that the Opposition debated for 40 hours and they would have debated until hell froze over about one thing, about whether or not the title of the workers' compensation bill should be an Act to Reform Workers' Compensation in Nova Scotia or whether the title, instead, should be Workers' Compensation Act? They actually believed - that is how much disrespect they have for the legislative process and the free press - that that is all Nova Scotians would understand about what is going on in this place.
Mr. Speaker, make no mistake about it, when we use the tactic of legislative delay, that we are always subject to a backlash from the public who will quite correctly say this may be costing, this is costing a lot of money and maybe the government hopes people will think of a third thing every time this debate comes to mind: it costs $6,000 a day for the New Democratic Party to be holding the government to ransom. Now, just think about it, how pathetic it is. How pathetic it is that a 41 member government, a government with a massive majority can go whining and wincing to the public to say that those nasty New Democrats, all three of them, have been holding this government to ransom and preventing the government from doing its business.
There are only three people in here. The words that came out of the member for Cape Breton South's mouth when I stood on my feet is - this should be good, well, we let the fringe Party say something once in a while - in his usual helpful way . . .
AN HON. MEMBER: . . . the extinct Party . . .
MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order, let's keep one at a time. Order.
MS. MCDONOUGH: Let me say clearly that when you are an Opposition Party in a Legislature with a whopping majority, you always fear that backlash; you have to take into account how it will be used for or against what you are trying to achieve. Let me say . . .
MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I would like to ask the Speaker if the member would quote the remark that she made, a supposed remark that I made some time ago this morning, I guess. Is that in Hansard or is she just taking these remarks off the top of her head? I don't recall making that remark but it sounds like a perfectly reasonable remark to make, but I don't recall making it and I want to know under what precedent is she citing that I made that remark?
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Cape Breton South has noted that he does not recall making the remark attributed to him and that is entered into the record.
MS. MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, let me say, if I can regain my composure a little bit - and I am having trouble doing that - let me say how helpful the intervention of the member for Cape Breton South is in having at least had the guts to stand in his place, stand up on his feet so that for once his remarks could be in Hansard. The reason I thank the member for his helpful introduction is, he has helped remind me of an exceedingly important point about one of the rotten things going on in this Legislature day in and day out and has been going on ever since this new government was elected.
[10:15 a.m.]
Now, let me say that it didn't just start with this new government, it was . . .
AN HON. MEMBER: The last government, too.
MS. MCDONOUGH: . . . Mr. Speaker, a decision of the previous government and a decision that the previous Speaker made, unilaterally, without any input in any rule changes, that changed forever the record of what goes on in this House. There is not a full Hansard written record any more, of what is said in this House. If the member for Cape Breton South had not been yelling from his seat back there, without ever putting his words on Hansard by standing on his feet, then the words, "We let the fringe Party talk once in a while.", would not go on the record. Why, Mr. Speaker? Because the previous Speaker arbitrarily made the decision, with the government loving every minute of it. The Tory Government of the day, that said, let's eliminate those comments that come from the backbenches, let's not have them in Hansard any more.
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Government House Leader on a point of order.
HON. RICHARD MANN: Mr. Speaker, let's clearly, so that the members who were not here then, so they know why those rabbit tracks are no longer included, was because we had a Premier in this province who chose to bark and the barking noises were put in Hansard and the embarrassment to the province and, I think, to the government of the day, with no help from this Party, is why it was removed.
MR. SPEAKER: Well, I want to respond to the point of order. The matter being raised is the matter of the editor and the edition of Hansard prepared by the Hansard division that comes under my office. The Editor of Hansard, Mr. Caley, is in the gallery and I think he does his job in a very thorough way. (Applause)
There are some asides that are entered into the record but it is a matter of editorial discretion. Not every catcall and certainly not every interjection, such as woof, woof, is entered into the record any longer.
The honourable member for Halifax Fairview has the floor.
MS. MCDONOUGH: I can say in all honesty, I don't want to spend my remaining 15 minutes on this point but let me say that it helps to illustrate very well how much the Rules and Forms of Procedure that go on in this House affect our ability to do our jobs and, most importantly, the ability of Nova Scotians to know what is going on in here on their behalf. The fact of the matter is, it has nothing to do with what the Chief of Hansard does or does not do. The last thing I am saying, and I want to be very clear about this for the record, is that somehow Rodney Caley is not properly recording those points, Mr. Speaker.
What I am saying is (Interruption) Yes - what do you do? You don't; you ignore him. The point is that those comments are now censored out of the record, by electronic means, period. That is a subject for another day, which I think bears some discussion.
Let me finish my point, now that the member for Cape Breton South has tried to distract me and met with more success than I should have allowed him. It is, indeed, a fragile exercise that we are involved in here. But I take considerable satisfaction, Mr. Speaker, that a good many of the conscientious members of the press have taken the time that has now been allowed and taken the opportunity to analyze the substance of the workers' compensation bill and write the kind of responsible exposé of what is in this bill that you read in this morning's Halifax Chronicle-Herald, in an article by Jim Meek. Let me say, I don't love the fact that Jim Meek has attacked Opposition members for dragging out the debate.
But you know what, Mr. Speaker? It is not going to matter a wit to the future of the workers' compensation program in this province, whether people are mad at Robert Chisholm, mad at the member for Halifax Atlantic, or mad at the member for Sackville-Cobequid, or absolutely furious at me because I have dragged out debate. But what is going to matter is whether we were permitted to do our job on behalf of the workers in this province who will become injured or diseased in the work place and have to depend upon a piece of legislation that either goes forward unamended, as this government has continued to indicate is their intention, or whether the workers of Nova Scotia are able to depend upon a piece of legislation that has some of its most Draconian measures amended, as they must be if there is to be any justice or fairness in the so-called reforms that this government has committed itself to.
Mr. Speaker, that is why Stanley Knowles, in talking about the reform process, has made the point that when it is the duty, and I quote from the House of Commons debate in 1961, some 34 years ago when Stanley Knowles was fighting then for the very same kind of rights that we are here, on this floor today, fighting for, when he said, "There are times, Mr. Speaker, when it is the duty of the opposition to talk and to do its best to prevent certain things from getting through. It is the duty of the opposition to do this in the name of the people.".
Mr. Speaker, when I sought election to this Legislature, it was because I considered that what politics was about in a democracy was to do what I thought was right in the name of the people who elected me. Let me say, when we fight against the provisions that are in this resolution today, we do so, again, because of what we believe to be in the interests of the people of this province, not just today, not just as it relates to a particular bill, as important as it is, the casino bill, not just in relation to the workers who will be affected under the workers' compensation bill, as important as it is, but we have opposed this resolution because there will be incredible numbers of Nova Scotians, over a very long period of time, who will not be as well served as they deserve to be by this Legislative Assembly and the members whom they elect, because of two things.
One is because of the arbitrary restrictions that this government has chosen to impose that will affect all legislation in the future, instead of their being prepared to take their responsibility - which they are elected to do - to show leadership in bringing in the reforms that are needed to gaming activity in this province and the accountability that needs to attach to it and instead of bringing in the reforms to the workers' compensation bill that will serve people over time.
Mr. Speaker, I stress the word leadership.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Let's have just a little less undercurrent here, please. Carry on.
MS. MCDONOUGH: One of the things, Mr. Speaker - and I think I was distracted and did not make this point earlier when I started to and I want to come back to it - that is an incredible contribution to the quagmire that has developed in this is the abdication of the leadership of this government in taking its legislation and selling it to the people of Nova Scotia.
It is not surprising that they are going to have some difficulty in selling it to members of this Opposition Party, I won't try to speak for any other, because we are fundamentally opposed to the principle of that casino bill which is to legalize casinos and increase the level of gambling activity. And so we, of course, are going to use every legislative means at our disposal to fight that.
It is not surprising, I am sure, to anybody that we are resisting the vicious attack on the rights of injured and diseased workers in this province because we are a Party that is to the very quick and the core of our being founded in, rooted in and devoted to fighting for the improved rights and benefits of working people. So, it is not surprising that this government cannot gain our support for their legislation imposed upon us and that won't surprise anybody.
What is absolutely surprising and accounts more than any other measure, in my view, for why this Legislature has deteriorated into a virtual combat zone and that is because this government steadfastly refuses to take its responsibility and assume some leadership in addressing what is in the bill, in addressing what our legitimate concerns and questions and issues that workers are asking about their future, (Interruption) that Nova Scotians are asking about what the future implications of casinos are going to be on their lives, on their quality of life, on the revenues of the province, on the economic consequences for the rest of the province.
This government, with 41 members, keeps pretending that the Opposition has somehow prevented them from selling Nova Scotians on these two pieces of legislation. Every single member of this government, and I want to stress this, under the rules of this House had both the right and the responsibility to stand up and deal with the issues that we have raised again and again. Yes, by delaying at the level of Committee of the Whole House on Bills debate on the title because that is the debate that is not about the three words or the eight words in the title, as the government keeps hoping the press will report to the public, it is about both the principles contained within these bills and the details of the bills.
Every single time that I have risen on my feet or my Leader for Sackville-Cobequid or my House Leader for Halifax Atlantic have stood on our feet and said, we are opposing this bill because we think it is fundamentally wrong, it is wrong in principle, and the details stink when it come to dismantling the right for an independent external review, it was the responsibility of this minister and if he couldn't do the job, if he wasn't up to the job, if he was so distracted trying to save the hide of the Premier, he should have called for help from his colleagues to say, you are wrong, or here is why we are doing what we are doing, or here is how you are misrepresenting it.
Stony silence is one of the biggest contributing factors in why this Legislature has deteriorated and diminished, not just in the eyes of Nova Scotians but has diminished its own effectiveness because this is supposed to be the arena where we debate these points of view. This is supposed to be the arena where the government puts forward its arguments and we put forward our arguments and we battle it out and sometimes, maybe we can persuade them and most of the time we probably can't. But one of the responsibilities of being a government, other than using your raw, electoral muscle to outvote 41 to 11, if you can get there as quickly as possible, one of the responsibilities of being a government is to explain to the people of this province, here is what we are doing, here is why we are doing it. We may be right or we may be wrong but at least we are accountable for what we are doing.
[10:30 a.m.]
Mr. Speaker, I have to say, and let me make it perfectly clear, that I was just as strenuously opposed to the right wing measures being foisted on Nova Scotians from the previous government. But let me say that I had a healthy respect for the fact that if I stood up and put forward an amendment or I put forward a strenuous argument for why I opposed what the government was doing, I had to be ready to take not just the rhetoric but also the defence that was going to be put out there by the Cabinet Minister who was responsible for the bill he was sponsoring.
Mr. Speaker, this government is so pathetic in its inability or its incapacity or just its downright refusal to accept its responsibility for leadership that it took the Opposition, it was left to the NDP Opposition to introduce an amendment to this resolution to provide for the minister to have a chance to stand up and speak, in response to every single amendment we put forward.
AN HON. MEMBER: Horsefeathers.
MS. MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, let me just say that if there is any member who can actually dismiss what I am saying so lightly as horsefeathers, let them show me where, in the resolution that this government has arbitrarily introduced without the benefit of all-Party consideration, without respecting the long-standing, time-worn traditions of all members of this House having an opportunity to collaborate on its changes in the Rules and Forms of Procedure, if this member who calls it horsefeathers, or any other, can show me where this amendment that we are now being asked to vote in support of, provides for both the right and the responsibility of the minister to enter the debate, then let them stand up and show me.
You know what the irony is, Mr. Speaker? The irony is that the amendment that I have tabled - if I haven't, it will be tabled when I finish - not only (Interruption) supercilious socialism, says the member for Bedford-Fall River, that is a usual helpful interjection, that is for sure. Mr. Speaker, she has discovered alliteration. Not only did the amendment that we wish to introduce here curb the opportunity dramatically for Opposition members to debate and engage in the delay that, frankly, I think we have used to pretty good effect over the last couple of weeks, in terms of what our objective is, our objective being for Nova Scotians to be able to know what is being done on their behalf. (Interruption) God forbid, they don't know because of anything the government stood up and said in the debate.
Mr. Speaker, the irony is that the proposed amendments that we are disallowed, under the procedure that the House Leader yesterday very cleverly and cynically and calculated in, that amendment also provided for the minister responsible for the bill to speak for five minutes after every other member's speech. Isn't it a sad commentary, and yet it speaks volumes about the leadership vacuum that exists in this province today and in this House today. Isn't it amazing that the Opposition had to propose that a minister should actually have the right to stand up and speak for five minutes, after every interjection?
Do you know what is even more pathetic, Mr. Speaker? Even having that right now, we have yet to see either of the ministers who have sponsored the casino bill and the workers' compensation bill, avail themselves of the exact same rights to speak on behalf of whoever's interest it is they say they represent, as we, in the Opposition, have to avail ourselves of the right to stand up and speak on behalf of those interests that we say we clearly represent and for which we are prepared to be accountable, to be accountable on the public record, to be accountable in what is supposed to be the cut and thrust of the debate that goes on here.
Now, Mr. Speaker, we have heard a lot of catcalls from the back benches, taunting from the front benches, about wasting the time of the House. I have to say that I don't give a hoot what those members think about how we have tried to responsibly discharge our use of our time in this House within the rules. But I care a lot, not because I think what I have to say is so important, but because I care about the democratic traditions and processes that are being violated; not just by this rule change alone, but by the total abdication of leadership of this government, in relation to these bills and all other matters. And it doesn't have a thing to do with John Savage, the Leader of the day, who may get deposed. It has everything to do with the cynical manipulation, the cynical approach to politics of the Liberal Party of Nova Scotia. (Applause)
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Housing and Consumer Affairs. (Applause)
HON. GUY BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words in this debate because earlier today I was out in the lounge and I said, you know, the honourable member for Kings West didn't get off to a bad start and the honourable member for Halifax Fairview, but I said that is likely going to change.
Mr. Speaker, as a member of this House for over 20 years, I cannot sit in my seat and allow what is happening here, today, in some of the statements that have been made. You know, the honourable member for Halifax Fairview said, well, they have 41 members and the three of us in a corner. Well, I have been in this House and we had less on that side of the House in opposition than they have today and I had no sense of fear of the big majority over here, the 47 members holding me down. Because in this great Assembly here - and I will get to the resolution in a moment, I will get to the point in a minute, with regard to the resolution here - that you use your time appropriately and in the best interests of democracy and of the history of this House of Assembly. And you don't try to make a mockery out of debate in this House, 60 hours on the title of a bill, which is ridiculous, uncalled for and not allowed anywhere else in Canada. (Applause)
Mr. Speaker, to accuse the press of delivering our message, is something a politician should never do. In all my time, I would never accuse the press, they have a job to do; let them do it and let the politicians stay out of it.
You talk about abusing the rules. The honourable member for Halifax Fairview said this morning in her debate, she is prepared to take the flack and the voters will decide who is right and who is wrong. Well, if that same principle applies to her and her Party, then I want to tell you that the same principle applies to us here on this side of the House and the Tories, or the other side. We happen to believe that what we are doing in legislation is right. We happen to believe, for the first time, that this province has real leadership, strong leadership that deals with the issues that must be dealt with in this province. (Applause)
Mr. Speaker, we came into office with a compensation fund that has an unfunded liability of $500 million, 26 per cent or 28 per cent, the lowest in all of Canada. Now, we could have continued and put it under the rug, but what are we doing for the workers of this province? The workers have not elected me to put things under the rug. They have elected me to deal with the issues so they and their children will have protection in 10 or 20 years time in this province. (Applause)
The rules of this House are here to protect democracy. Changes in the rules, which we will deal with in a few moments, protect democracy, they do not take away from it. I believe the things that Premier Savage and this Liberal Government have done is truly liberalism. I believe that we have lowered income tax, which is right. I believe that we have brought in the home incentive, which is right. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that we have done things and tried to protect the seniors with regard to the prescription drug program. I believe that we are looking after the compensation so that workers, in 10 and 20 years time, will have that protection.
I believe that our agenda is one of liberalism and it is one that is needed in this province, more than anything else, and I, personally, believe, under health care or whatever issues, that people will be saying in five or seven years time, that government made the right decisions, the proper decisions to protect the people in this day and age. (Applause)
Mr. Speaker, I want to tell you about the Minister of Labour, who I have a lot of time for and a lot of respect for. That Minister of Labour has listened to people and how politicians can get up in this House and say that this minister has not talked to people is beyond me. I can tell you that the United Mine Workers of this province, who I have a great deal of respect for, that this minister has met with them. They may not have got everything they wanted and we, maybe, never got everything we wanted, but thanks to that group that has shown leadership in Springhill, has shown leadership in Pictou, and has shown leadership across this province, even when my father worked in the mines in Springhill, we do have reforms.
I stand here, publicly, and thank the minister. He is not hiding anything. He is doing nothing in the back room. He has opened it up and, thank God, we have a Minister of Labour that is trying to protect the workers that come after we leave here. (Applause)
For the honourable member for Halifax Fairview to say that we had a vicious attack on workers, Mr. Speaker, I am debating in this House and you don't debate to the gallery and you should know that better than anybody else. (Applause) It is sad, but that is one of the changes that I have seen take place in this House, that we now have members that used to come here, Jeremy Akerman, NDP, Tories and Liberals, that came here and debated with each other for the public, to bring their point forward. But now we seem to have some members here that will wait until certain people are in the gallery and then they want to get up and debate. (Applause) That is not what this House is about and those tactics destroy democracy, they do not preserve it and we are preserving democracy within this House.
[10:45 a.m.]
I want to tell you, the ministers can speak, they get up here every day. Why don't the ministers get up and speak? Well, I will tell you, when I sat on that side of the House as an Opposition member, where I sat for 15 years and at one time there were only 6 of us, I will tell you, we didn't look across here and get scared and think anybody was taking anything away from us. We used the Rules of the House and we used them to our advantage in the best interests but we did not play games with them. We never did debate 50 or 60 hours on the title of a bill because that is not in the spirit of this House. That is not the spirit of the rules of this House. Then we hear today from the honourable member . . .
MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Would the honourable minister entertain a question?
MR. BROWN: Yes, I will entertain all you have.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, the workers' compensation bill that is before us prohibits many workers from receiving hard won and negotiated top-up payments from their employers. I wonder if that member could explain for the benefit of this House how that is going to affect the unfunded liability?
MR. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, the honourable Minister of Labour has already indicated he has about 10 amendments to make to that bill. There may be some things that people won't totally agree with, the same as when workers' compensation bills went through this House before. But I want to tell you, the members of the Opposition in those days and the members of the government in those days, used the debates to best deliver their message, not to tie up and debate the title of the bill and use this House all day. (Applause)
We are moving to preserve democracy in this province so the Minister of Labour, who has indicated over and over that he is prepared to make amendments, he has indicated that here in this House, we will now get on with the debate maybe so we can see the amendments and so other amendments can be put forward that we can look at. (Interruptions) I know they don't want to see them.
We are governing in the best interests of this province. I will tell you, I am proud of the leadership of this government because I truly believe with all my heart and soul that if this government had not been elected that this province would not even be controlling its own destiny, that the bond markets in New York, that people outside of this province that are lenders that we owe so much money to, that every Nova Scotian should be ashamed; Nova Scotia was the leader here when I was elected in the 1970's. We were the leader in Atlantic Canada. Where have we fallen to? Do you think I am proud of that for my children? But I want to tell you, under the direction of this government we will become number one again in Atlantic Canada. (Applause)
You know this great House that I love so much and I believe in so much and, Mr. Speaker, you know that I don't like some of the things that go on here and I have talked to you and I have talked to other members of the House. It is not just the government, it is the whole 52 members of this House so everybody can take their fair share of blame in what is happening in this Assembly over the past number of years. This great House and this great place of democracy that I have been so proud to serve in now for over 20 years and what an honour for me and my family and what an honour it should be for every member of the House to come in here to look at the rules, to look at the regulations and debate like gentlemen in a fair manner and not become personally involved in personal beliefs.
I know that some people get up and say, everything that is done here by the former government and this government is right wing, that is not true. There was some legislation done by the former government which I supported. There is legislation by this government which I believe adds protection and protects all residents of this province in the long term. It may hurt, but I want to tell you, I would sooner have a little bit of pain today and wake up a year or two years from now and look my children in the eye and say that we saved your compensation program in this province, we saved your credit in this province, we saved these things in this province and that is what I am here for and those are the sorts of things that make me feel very good, Mr. Speaker, as a member of this House.
You know, each time the rules have changed, the rules were changed to preserve democracy, not to destroy it or to set it back. How that question keeps coming up is beyond me. I am going to give a few examples.
MS. ALEXA MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, would the honourable minister entertain a brief question? The minister has expressed his surprise that the question keeps coming up about the process whereby rule changes take place. I would like to ask the minister if he is in favour of rule changes taking place, as they are in this instance, through the unilateral imposition by the Government House Leader and this government rather than by the time-honoured, all-Party process of rule reform that has been observed and practised in this session, certainly during all of the years that both he and I have been here as members?
MR. BROWN: A very good question and a very fair question, which I am prepared to deal with. Everybody likes to do things by negotiations, that is the way you do things in your life. But I want to tell you, when the people on the other side of the Table will spend 50 and 60 hours debating a title and want to pull democracy down and don't want to debate in a fair and in the true spirit of this House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, we as a government have no other choice but to preserve democracy, to move forward. This is what we have done (Interruptions) and I totally support it. (Applause)
Mr. Speaker, I am not . . .
MS. MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, would the minister mind another question?
MR. BROWN: I don't want to take an hour but go ahead because, I will tell you, I am not going to let anybody leave here and say I wouldn't take a question, so I will take them all.
MS. MCDONOUGH: I am just wanting to ask the minister, in that valiant struggle to preserve democracy against the imposition of a too dragged-out debate by the NDP caucus, did the minister use what was available to him as a member, which is to invite the Speaker to convene a meeting of the House rules committee, or did he ask the Government House Leader if he would please seek out the opportunity to seek consensus on a rule change in his valiant struggle to preserve democracy in this House?
MR. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member for Halifax Fairview, her Party and others have asked the House Leader in this House questions over the last two or three days. Those questions were answered honestly, up-front and I believe she has had her answer, I don't know how many times, so there is no point in me taking my time of debate again and going through the same thing that is recorded in Hansard and in Question Period.
Mr. Speaker, I want to tell you that in this great place of debate, which I would like to see return with the real cause and the real issues in this House, every time there has been a change it was done to protect democracy, not to tear it down. I was a member of this Assembly when Question Period went on - as you were Mr. Speaker - we would come in here on Question Period Day and the questions would start and it would go until the House recessed or adjourned that evening. Do you know why? People learned to try to destroy the principle of Question Period, both government and Opposition. I have seen ministers take 5, 8 or 10 minutes to answer a question which is (Interruptions) No, I am talking about our government in power, so I will deal with this.
I have seen ministers take too much time and I have seen members take too much time, so the House almost destroyed the principle of Question Period. So what did we have to do or what did the former government have to do? I think it was the former government that made the changes. They had to come in so we had to put some time limit on it. Because if we hadn't, it would have destroyed the principle of Question Period in the House of Assembly for Nova Scotians. (Applause)
I want to tell you, Mr. Speaker, the budget debate, that used to be a circus in this House. The budget debate was called when I first came here and it could go on for months. There was no time limit. It could go on for months and be debated. So you know what that was doing, it was destroying the whole principle of a decent budget debate on behalf of Nova Scotians and on behalf of the Opposition Parties, as well as the government.
All of these changes were not made under a Liberal Government, but I think it is important that people understand a little bit of history about rule changes. (Interruption) Mr. Speaker, you know, they are jumping up and down over there. They have had all their time in the world. They have had hours upon hours. They have debated. (Interruption) I did not want to speak for a whole hour.
AN HON. MEMBER: . . . we are just helping you.
MR. BROWN: Well, you are not helping me. I can handle myself on the floor of this House. (Applause)
Mr. Speaker, I could deal with other issues, but I don't want to take the time of this House to deal with all of those today. But, believe me, I feel very proud and I think all of these things that have happened by former governments in this House and there was not always total agreement, but people had to do what was right. You see there was that spirit in those days in this Assembly. There was that willingness. People did not get tied up on a personal issue and get all excited, they did what was in the best interests of democracy in this House of Assembly and that is why they did those things, where today we have a totally different approach in this House of Assembly. (Interruption)
AN HON. MEMBER: . . . had rules in those days.
MR. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, we still have rules and I would like to carry on. The changes protect the House. The changes protect free speech. What are we really dealing with in the resolution that we are debating here today, Resolution No. 1563, "Whereas current Rules of the House permit every member to debate each bill for up to four hours on second reading. . .".
I have been reading reports and I have been hearing people talk, saying we are cutting debate to 20 hours. That is not true. There is not one minute taken off the debate in the second reading of these bills. It is still there for every member for four hours. If you have 20 members on the Opposition, then you get 80 or 90 hours of debate in second reading. We have not touched the debate at all on the principle of the bill. It is still wide open, as it has always been in this province and we have not laid one little finger on it. (Applause)
I want to tell you, then the bill goes to the Law Amendments Committee, if it is a government bill. I will tell you that people can come in and appear before that committee. The NDP are on that committee and the Tories are on the Committee, plus government members. They can then bring resolutions or amendments before that committee, once again, and they have a debate. But the most important thing at that committee, in my opinion, it is truly open for people in this province where it is not in many other provinces. The people have the right to come before us and speak, which, in most provinces, the people do not have the opportunity. We have not touched that one little bit. (Applause)
Now we get back here into the Committee of the Whole House on Bills. What has really happened? We can disagree with each other and they can think they are right on the Opposition and we can think we are right in government, and that is why you have different Parties, and I am not here to debate that issue, but I am telling you, what really happened. We have sat in this House and we listened to people debate the title of a bill for 60 hours in this House.
Now, if anybody in this province thinks that is what democracy is about. If they think that is the spirit of the Rules of the House, then, Mr. Speaker, I have been here a long time, people might spend an hour on the title of a bill but to get up and deliberately delay the actions so the Minister of Labour can get up and introduce his amendments to the workers' compensation bill and debate the workers' compensation bill, is totally wrong and that is not what democracy is all about. You tell me one other place under the British Parliamentary system that you could do that. None. That is why it must be changed.
[11:00 a.m.]
Do you know why we are changing it? Not because we are frustrated, I am not frustrated with regard to it. But I will tell you, the calls that I get, the public are getting a little bit fed up, not only with the government but with the Opposition Parties, both of them. They have a concern. But we are making this change so we can protect democracy, so we can protect a debate in this House of Assembly. Then, after we have finished that, the bill goes on to third reading. We have not made a change.
In my opinion, Mr. Speaker, this is so far from closure that it is not even funny. When we get 20 hours, that is not closure, the bill goes on to the third reading where people can debate it and amendment it all over. The bill is not stopped. (Applause)
AN HON. MEMBER: Well, it should be.
MR. BROWN: Now he says it should be. Well that is not what the Rules of the House are for.
AN HON. MEMBER: That proves the point.
MR. BROWN: You know that is the whole point, they are staying what they personally believe in their own minds, some of them, and they have made legislation a personal debate and they made this House of Assembly a personal debate.
Mr. Speaker, this House of Assembly is about democracy, where people have the right to be heard. That bill does not stop. That is not closure, like it is in other provinces, it is not stopped. When we get finished with it in that reading, it goes on to third reading where every member of the Opposition will have a chance and we have not taken one minute of time.
AN HON. MEMBER: Yet.
MR. BROWN: Now he says "yet". I mean, what are we talking about here? (Interruptions) Mr. Speaker, never have elected individuals, and not all of them in the Opposition, but never have a few in this House tried to destroy the rules and the intent of debate in my 20 years in this Assembly. They are designed to be fair. The debates in these Rules of the House of Assembly are designed to be fair. If we wanted to really do closure, we would have done it maybe on second reading or third reading or whatever.
We have not done that. We have only said the bills are staying too long in committee and let's move them on so that the MLAs on the Opposition, so that Nova Scotians can see the bill debated in third reading in this great Assembly. That is what we have done. (Applause)
Mr. Speaker, people are tired. I agree, I am a member of this House, I am not trying to hide that. But I want to tell you something, they are not just tired of government, they are tired of Opposition because they feel the House is not producing. We have people who are waiting for bills to go through this House of Assembly. They are getting fed up. We are not the ones who are holding up the total debate. The Opposition are in it as much as we are and we are trying to speed that up.
By the way, Mr. Speaker, that is our role. That is our job, as government. It is our job to put the agenda forward in a fair and just manner. I want to tell you, this is fair, this is just, it does not hurt the debate on third reading, in committee or in second reading. That is why I don't know of anybody in this caucus, contrary to what some of the members have been saying, who are opposed to this. I don't know of one Cabinet Minister and I don't know of one caucus member because the caucus members know what we were doing. They were met with by the House Leader and some Cabinet Ministers and, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has told me that they were opposed to this resolution. So everybody has had input into it.
The Opposition can be part of this debate, they have to be. Without Opposition, Mr. Speaker, there is no true democracy or debate, although some people in New Brunswick . . .
AN HON. MEMBER: That's what we are saying; that's what we're trying to say.
MR. BROWN: No, you are not trying to say that at all. (Interruption) No, I am not taking any more questions from them.
Mr. Speaker, the Opposition is part of that, it is not just government. (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.
MR. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, as the honourable member for Halifax Fairview said, they will do the things their way and let the people decide. They believe they are right; we believe we are right. The people at election time will have an opportunity to then say, thank you or we don't want anything else to do with you, they will have that. That is what this Assembly is all about and that is what it has been about six times for me going before the people. I will tell you, I feel better going this time because I think we are restoring confidence in Nova Scotia and I think once again, that we are turning this great province back to where it belongs and that is the truth. (Applause)
Mr. Speaker, you just can't pick up the Rule Book and say it says this and be it black and white, there has to be a spirit. If this House is to survive, there has to be a spirit in this House that we are all here for the same job and we are all here working together and we are all flexible with regard to everything. This has not happened in this session. For the first time some Opposition members want to break away from a spirit that has been here for over 20 years for personal gains (Interruptions). Maybe we should have looked at other rules because they can never keep quiet. So, we as a government must preserve democracy and must do what we think is in the best interests of all Nova Scotians, so that people will look at us in a way that will encourage them to return to this province and look at us in a serious way.
Second reading, I have gone through that, the committee, none of those changes have taken place. We have not taken one minute of time from you people on second reading, on the Law Amendments Committee, on the third reading in this House, not one minute and you still want more time? Let's get on with the real issues, of jobs for Nova Scotians, let's get on with the issues on the economy, let's get on with protection for people, that is our role as a government. Let me tell you and all Nova Scotians that we are going to do our job but we are tired of these games that some people are trying to play in holding it up. (Applause)
MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further speakers to the resolution? The question is called. There will be a recorded vote.
We can ring the bells and call in the members.
[11:10 a.m.]
[The division bells were rung.]
MR. SPEAKER: "Therefore be it resolved that the Rules and Forms of Procedure of the House of Assembly be amended, effective immediately, as provided in the attached Schedule" to the notice of motion and that the question be now put.
The voting will take place, a recorded vote, conducted by the Clerk. Vote Aye, if in support of the resolution; Nay, if opposed.
[The Clerk calls the roll.]
[11:33 a.m.]
YEAS NAYS
Mr. Barkhouse Mr. Moody
Mrs. Norrie Mr. Donahoe
Mr. Downe Mr. Russell
Dr. Smith Mr. Holm
Mr. Boudreau Mr. Chisholm
Mr. Gillis Ms. McDonough
Mr. Bragg Mr. Archibald
Ms. Jolly Mr. Taylor
Mr. MacEachern Dr. Hamm
Mr. Mann
Mr. Casey
Mr. Gaudet
Dr. Stewart
Mr. Harrison
Mr. Abbass
Mr. Adams
Mr. Brown
Mr. Lorraine
Mrs. Cosman
Mr. MacAskill
Mr. MacNeil
Mr. Rayfuse
Mr. Richards
Mr. Surette
Mr. White
Mrs. O'Connor
Mr. Mitchell
Mr. M. MacDonald
Mr. Fogarty
Mr. Hubbard
Mr. W. MacDonald
Mr. Colwell
Mr. Huskilson
Mr. Carruthers
THE CLERK: For, 34. Against, 9.
MR. SPEAKER: I declare the motion carried.
MR. TERENCE DONAHOE: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. I rise to contend to you that the privileges of all members of this House have been abrogated by the process used here in the last day or two, relative to the resolution just passed. I argue not so much the substance of the resolution but the process.
I ask you, Mr. Speaker, as you have authority to do, to strike down the result as a breach of the privileges of the members, as you are, as you well know, under the Rules of the House, the protector of the rights and privileges of all the members and have the authority to do so. I refer specifically to Rule No. 8 of the Rules and Forms of Procedures of the House of Assembly. I would ask you to strike the matter down on a procedural basis.
MR. SPEAKER: The Clerk has reported to me that a majority of members voted for the resolution. Would the Clerk please give me the numbers again?
THE CLERK: Thirty-four in favour, Mr. Speaker, nine opposed.
MR. SPEAKER: Thirty-four members voted for the resolution and nine voted against. Certainly the rights of the majority must prevail over the rights of minority. Therefore, I do not find there are any procedural or other grounds for ruling, other than that I have already ruled that the motion is carried.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: On a point of order. I wonder if you could clarify the nature of the vote that was just held, Mr. Speaker. It is my understanding, in reference to Beauchesne, Paragraph 521, especially Paragraph 521(2), where it says "If the previous question be carried, the Speaker will immediately put the question without further debate." In other words, the process to deal with the previous question is first, to vote on the previous question and then to vote on the main motion before this House.
I think the fact that we have voted in the manner which we just did is out of order and I think what it does is it illustrates the problems created yesterday by the improper combining of those two motions. Mr. Speaker, therefore, I believe that that vote and this process is out of order, consistent with Beauchesne's discussion of how a previous question is to be handled.
MR. SPEAKER: I would submit that the time to have raised that point of order would have been prior to the taking of the vote. The vote has already been taken and the matter is closed.
Rule No. 9 of the House, Duties of the Speaker, states, 9(1) "Mr. Speaker shall preserve order and decorum, and shall decide questions of order; . . ." and I have already decided the matter.
The honourable Government House Leader.
HON. RICHARD MANN: Mr. Speaker, I move that you do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole House on Bills.
MR. SPEAKER: The motion is carried.
[11:40 p.m. The House resolved itself into a CWH on Bills with Deputy Speaker Mr. Gerald O'Malley in the Chair.]
[4:00 p.m. CWH on Bills rose and the House reconvened with Deputy Speaker Mr. Gerald O'Malley in the Chair.]
MR. SPEAKER: The Chairman of the Committee of the Whole House on Bills reports:
THE CLERK: That the committee has met and made considerable progress in consideration of Bill No. 122 and begs leave to sit again.
MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed?
It is agreed.
Before I call upon the honourable Government House Leader to adjourn for the day, it is appropriate, I think, to announce from the Chair that tomorrow is the birthday of the honourable Government House Leader. I guess from the last two days and the last 48 hours he didn't gain one year but maybe 10. I am not sure what his current age is, but Happy Birthday to the honourable Government House Leader. (Applause)
The honourable Government House Leader.
HON. RICHARD MANN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would advise members of the House that we will be sitting on Monday from 2:00 p.m. until 10:00 p.m. We will resume debate in Committee of the Whole House on Bill No. 122.
I move that we adjourn until 2:00 p.m. Monday.
MR. SPEAKER: The motion for adjournment has been made and carried.
The House will now rise to sit again at 2:00 p.m. on Monday next.
[The House rose at 4:02 p.m.]
By: Mr. Brooke Taylor (Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley)
I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move that an order of this House do issue for a return showing, with respect to the Nova Scotia Sport and Recreation Commission:
(1) A detailed breakdown of the 42 recommendations made in the management audit of the Nova Scotia Sport and Recreation Commission which have been accepted by the Government of Nova Scotia; and
(2) Number of employees and a list of their job titles in the Department of Sport and Recreation in September 1994 and a list of employees and their job titles in the Department of Sport and Recreation in January 1995.
By: Mr. George Moody (Kings West)
I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move that an order of this House do issue for a return showing, with respect to the Department of Health:
(1) A copy of the paper on Population Health given to Canadian Ministers of Health late last summer; and
(2) Detailed breakdown of the approach taken to date by Nova Scotia Health officials concerning the paper on Population Health.
