MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I would like to call the House to order at this time and commence this afternoon's agenda. Are there any introductions of visitors? If not, we will go through the daily routine.
PRESENTING AND READING PETITIONS
PRESENTING REPORTS OF COMMITTEES
TABLING REPORTS, REGULATIONS AND OTHER PAPERS
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Labour.
HON. JAY ABBASS: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the Annual Report for the Department of Labour for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1993.
MR. SPEAKER: The annual report is tabled.
STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS
GOVERNMENT NOTICES OF MOTION
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Premier.
HON. JOHN SAVAGE (The Premier): Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas the Order of Canada was established in 1967 to honour those Canadians who have achieved great success in their various fields of endeavour from the arts to public service; and
Whereas these fine citizens are nominated by their fellow Canadians in recognition of their accomplishments; and
Whereas the Governor General announced yesterday the names of three outstanding Nova Scotians to the Order of Canada: Mr. Eric Kierans, a former federal Cabinet Minister who has devoted much of his life to public service, was appointed an Officer of the Order of Canada; Mr. Calvin Ruck of Dartmouth, a good friend of mine, an author, cultural leader and former social worker, who is well known for his efforts in obtaining recognition for Canada's only black battalion and writing a history of it, was appointed a Member of the Order of Canada; and Mr. Murray Beck of Lunenburg, who is very well known to many people in this room, a retired educator whose contribution to the historical record of Nova Scotia is well known, was also appointed a Member of the Order of Canada;
Therefore be it resolved that this House recognize the honour bestowed upon these fine Nova Scotians and offer them our sincerest congratulations.
Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.
MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed?
It is agreed.
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried. (Applause)
The honourable Minister of Community Services.
HON. JAMES SMITH: While not to duplicate the Premier, Mr. Speaker, I feel it is noteworthy that a constituent of mine has received that order and with your permission I would like to read my resolution.
MR. SPEAKER: Very well.
The honourable Minister of Community Services.
HON. JAMES SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas Mr. Calvin Ruck of Dartmouth East is a much admired and respected member of the Dartmouth community; and
Whereas Mr. Ruck, as an author and activist, has long sought recognition for Canada's only black battalion with half of the members of the Number Two Construction Battalion made up of Nova Scotians; and
Whereas Mr. Calvin Ruck has recently been named among three Nova Scotians to the Order of Canada;
Therefore be it resolved that the members of this House of Assembly extend congratulations to Mr. Calvin Ruck, OC, for his many contributions to our community and for the prestigious honour of being named among the most notable of Canadians to the Order of Canada.
Mr. Speaker, I would ask waiver of notice and passage without debate.
MR. SPEAKER: It is agreed.
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried. (Applause)
INTRODUCTION OF BILLS
NOTICES OF MOTION
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition.
MR. TERENCE DONAHOE: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas the courage and kindness of Darren Watts has, since his senseless beating of September 11th, amazed and heartened all who have heard his story; and
Whereas this individual, who doctors felt had little chance for recovery, experienced a welcomed but near miraculous physical comeback; and
Whereas Mr. Watts, even though he sustained severe injuries and was in a coma as a result of trying to stop a fight on a Halifax street, shows no ill will to his attackers and feels he would step in to help if a situation arose again;
Therefore be it resolved that the members of this House commend Darren Watts for his courage and kindness and offer support to this young man in his continuing rehabilitation and in a swift and successful resolution of the court case involving his attackers still before him.
Mr. Speaker, I would ask for waiver of notice.
MR. SPEAKER: It is agreed.
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
The honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party.
MR. JOHN HOLM: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas the MLA for Guysborough-Port Hawkesbury has publicly asked why the Town of Port Hawkesbury refuses to pay a major share of the costs of a proposed home for six disabled persons, having believed the province would pay all costs; and
Whereas that MLA may have forgotten that throughout 1993 and 1994, until October 27th, his own Party and government specifically promised 100 per cent provincial funding of this and similar people services; and
Whereas that MLA may have assumed that neither the town nor any other Nova Scotian would or should believe Liberal promises;
Therefore be it resolved that instead of criticizing those who believed and relied upon the commitments made by his government, the MLA should apologize for the betrayal of Liberal commitments and stand up for his constituents against the failure to achieve municipal reform.
MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.
The honourable member for Kings West.
MR. GEORGE MOODY: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas Tuesday the Finance Minister said that the casino issue will be on the table in the House, "as long as the Opposition feels they can get benefit from it"; and
Whereas the Finance Minister, as he has done throughout the public debate on the issue of allowing casinos into this province, has missed the mark once again;
Whereas even though this government is convinced it knows what is best for the people of Nova Scotia - that is, casinos - the people of this province want the government to be continually reminded that they said no to casinos;
Therefore be it resolved that this government recognize the value of debate in this House and the opportunity it gives Nova Scotians to continue to have their opposition against casinos voiced even though they know that this majority government has shown no conscience on such a serious subject.
MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.
The honourable member for Pictou East.
MR. WAYNE FRASER: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas the Plymouth Mine Site Reutilization Committee appointed by the Minister of Natural Resources, and chaired by Dr. Ellen MacLean, represented a broad range of community interest groups in Pictou County, including the Westray Families Group, the chamber of commerce, the United Steel Workers of America, the Pictou County Municipal Council and the Pictou Regional Development Corporation to help determine their community's future; and
Whereas the Plymouth Mine Site Reutilization Committee recommended a feasibility study to determine the long-term viability of establishing a world-class industrial safety training facility at the former Plymouth Mine site; and
Whereas the Minister of Natural Resources recently announced that an independent study of the industry safety training facility proposal will be conducted with funding through the Canada-Nova Scotia Mineral Development Agreement;
Therefore be it resolved that this House of Assembly congratulate the Plymouth Mine Site Reutilization Committee and the Minister of Natural Resources for their cooperative approach in determining the future use of the Plymouth Mine site.
I would ask for waiver, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed?
It is agreed.
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
The honourable Leader of the Opposition.
MR. TERENCE DONAHOE: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas the Ministers for Economic Renewal and Education have started the decentralization of government by announcing that 75 provincial government jobs would be moving from Halifax to Amherst; and
Whereas the Minister of Education has no difficulty looking after the constituency of Cumberland North yet keeping the cupboard bare in his own constituency of Cape Breton East; and
Whereas the president of the Cape Breton Nova Liberal Association recently said, and I quote, the unemployment rate in Whitney Pier is close to 50 per cent and that poor people are barely being saved from starving to death by volunteers operating soup kitchens and food banks;
Therefore be it resolved that if the Minister of Education is prepared to step in and move over 75 government jobs to Amherst, he would do likewise at the Cabinet table and address the 23.6 per cent unemployment rate across Cape Breton.
MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.
The honourable member for Eastern Shore.
MR. KEITH COLWELL: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas the Ecum Secum West wharf is vital to the economic well-being of Ecum Secum West and surrounding communities; and
Whereas the Ecum Secum West wharf serves the needs of fishers, recreational boaters and divers; and
Whereas in cooperation with the federal member for Central Nova, the Honourable Roseanne Skoke, a $300,000 grant was obtained to repair the Ecum Secum West facility through Small Crafts and Harbours of the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans;
Therefore be it resolved that the members of this House applaud the successful efforts of the Ecum Secum West Port Committee and those of the MP for Central Nova in obtaining funds for the repair of this vital port facility.
Mr. Speaker, I would ask for waiver, please.
MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed?
It is agreed.
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
The honourable member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley.
MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas Cape Breton Transit bus driver Jack Morrison said this fall in the Cape Breton Post, in response to comments by the Minister of Finance, that he was considering tax breaks in his next budget, quote, I don't think we will get a tax break because we can't trust this government;
Whereas the reporter writing the story even sounded skeptical saying, and I quote, like UFOs and ghosts, many Cape Bretoners will have to see a tax cut to actually believe it; and
Whereas the federal Minister of Finance is already talking about picking our pockets clean with tax hikes in the upcoming federal budget to meet budget cuts of $9.4 billion;
Therefore be it resolved that Nova Scotia's Minister of Finance immediately reassure Nova Scotians that an increase in taxes will not take place with the release of the provincial budget so that a double whammy will not be forced upon Nova Scotians this fiscal year.
MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.
The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas the Premier's amended disclosure statement reveals that during his first 10 months in office, Liberal Party members paid $9,397.30 to him for his expenses; and
[12:15 p.m.]
Whereas despite claims to be an open, fair and democratic Party, the Liberals would have kept this information secret if the Conflict of Interest Commissioner had not intervened; and
Whereas Liberal Party members have not yet been told how much they paid for the Premier, his staff and ministers to travel throughout the province in 1994, trying to stop a leadership review;
Therefore be it resolved that before a single Liberal is asked to participate in the latest province-wide campaign to save the Premier's job, they should be told just how much they and their precious trust funds are spending to keep him there.
MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.
The honourable member for Guysborough-Port Hawkesbury.
MR. RAYMOND WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas the community economic development policies of this government have helped to create an economic climate that is stimulating the small business sector of this province; and
Whereas through the Community Business Loan Program, at the end of December 1994, there were 277 new projects approved, totalling $3.3 million; and
Whereas the business sector is responding well to the economic climate established by this government;
Therefore be it resolved that this House of Assembly recognize the community economic development initiatives of this government which foster a new economic climate of confidence and optimism.
MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.
The honourable member for Kings West.
MR. GEORGE MOODY: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas People Against Casinos, a coalition of citizens opposing the establishment of casinos in Nova Scotia, appealed yesterday to Halifax City Council to block the sale of city-owned land to ITT Sheraton until a complete socio-economic impact study is done; and
Whereas the Progressive Conservative caucus has consistently appealed to the Savage Liberals to conduct an independent study on the impact of casinos on the economic and social fabric of the province; and
Whereas so far the government has relied solely upon the information provided by ITT Sheraton for its financial projections and has ignored all socio-economic concerns;
Therefore be it resolved that the Nova Scotia Legislature support PAC-NS in its bid to block the development of casinos in Nova Scotia until an independent evaluation is completed.
MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.
The honourable member for Halifax Fairview.
MS. ALEXA MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas the Premier and his Cabinet colleagues promised tough conflict of interest legislation and high ethical standards would be in place 90 days after being elected; and
Whereas the Premier and his Cabinet colleagues promised that they would not impose municipal amalgamation and that they would instead establish single-tiered social assistance six months after election; and
Whereas these Liberals now indicate it will take at least two years to become ethical, seemingly forever to end two-tiered social assistance, and yet they can impose amalgamation almost overnight;
Therefore be it resolved that the Liberals should explain in careful detail, how long it takes for a government to become so completely hypocritical and so hopelessly inept in implementing its reform agenda.
MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.
The honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party.
MR. JOHN HOLM: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas the Mayor of Sydney has announced that he is all for reasonable amendments to the constitution of the Liberal Party, that would limit opportunities for leadership review and limit members' participation in leadership review; and
Whereas Nova Scotians know that His Honour the Mayor has no personal axe to grind on the issue of Liberal leadership reviews; and
Whereas the present Liberal Leader must welcome support from someone who has won endorsement by as many as 51 per cent of the Party members;
Therefore be it resolved that in the opinion of this House, with credible support like that from the former Leader of the Liberal Party, the present Liberal Leader needs no enemies.
MR. SPEAKER: I could not hear the last part of it, but the notice is tabled.
The honourable member for Halifax Fairview.
MS. ALEXA MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:
Whereas the Finance Minister has suggested that anyone who supports jobs for Nova Scotians should cheerfully and uncritically endorse his casino plans; and
Whereas that minister has not produced one word, sentence, paragraph or page of analysis to demonstrate that casinos will result in a net increase in employment for Nova Scotians; and
Whereas the minister has meanwhile caused hundreds of layoffs, helped derail any jobs strategy and broken his promise of decentralization of jobs to Cape Breton;
Therefore be it resolved that the Premier and Finance Minister should clarify for Nova Scotians whether the sum total of their jobs strategy is, in fact, two casinos and short-term make work projects for a few hundred individuals in the dead of winter.
MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.
Are there further notices of motion? Is there any additional business to come before the House under the heading of the daily routine?
If not, the Clerk has conducted a draw for the Adjournment motion at 6:00 p.m. and the winner today is the honourable member for Halifax Fairview. She has submitted a resolution, I will read the operative part of it:
Therefore be it resolved that this government deliver on its commitment to family oriented, community-based services to enhance independence and dignity of Nova Scotians with disabilities.
So, we will hear on that matter and related topics at 6:00 p.m. The time is now 12:21 p.m., the Oral Question Period today will run for one hour, that is until 1:21 p.m.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
ORAL QUESTIONS PUT BY MEMBERS
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition.
MR. TERENCE DONAHOE: My question is for the Minister of Human Resources. I wonder if the Minister of Human Resources could confirm for this House that the new recently appointed Chief of Protocol was, in fact, not the recommended first choice of the review committee which conducted the interviews of all of the applicants?
HON. ELEANOR NORRIE: Yes, I think that is true.
MR. DONAHOE: For the record, Nova Scotians should know that the review committee consisted of Mr. Bill MacDonald, Deputy Minister; Mildred Royer, her Deputy Minister of Human Resources; and Anne Reynolds, who is the Chief of Protocol in the Province of New Brunswick. My supplementary question to the Minister of Human Resources is, will she tell this House who it is who made the decision to overrule the recommendation of the review committee and to go ahead and choose a candidate who was not the recommended candidate?
MRS. NORRIE: Mr. Speaker, under the fair hiring guidelines, the deputy ministers of the departments can look at the recommended candidates that come forward and can choose from those candidates that person who he best feels would fit the job, a qualified person who could fit the job, looking at affirmative action and qualifications of the candidate.
MR. DONAHOE: Well, Mr. Speaker, the answer is interesting and enlightening. I just indicated and I didn't get any objection that I had misstated it that two deputy ministers involved, the deputy at the Premier's office and the deputy at Human Resources, were on the interview team and they, along with a third member, recommended the top candidate. My understanding is that it was a unanimous recommendation of the interview team. Now, when I ask who made the decision to overrule the recommendation, I get some gobbledegook from this minister . . .
MR. SPEAKER: That is not very nice, now. Get an answer from the minister.
MR. DONAHOE: I get an answer, Mr. Speaker, if I may which doesn't jibe at all with what went on because her own deputy minister was one of the interview team. I ask again, was it her deputy minister in Human Resources who decided that the selection to be made would not be the person whom she, that deputy minister, unanimously recommended along with the other deputy and the third member of the committee? Was it her deputy who made that decision?
MRS. NORRIE: Mr. Speaker, if I might, the job became vacant, for Chief of the Protocol Office, under an early retirement program. The job was then advertised in the employment bulletins and if you note on the employment bulletin and I have one here, Affirmative Action Program is adopted by this government, that we do hire based on looking at the Affirmative Action Program and looking at how we do the hiring within government, we do give equal opportunity to affirmative action candidates.
There were 60 applicants for the job, over 50 per cent of those people were women. Five persons were short listed and they were interviewed, yes, by the Deputy Minister of the Premier's Office, the Deputy Minister of Human Resources and the New Brunswick Protocol Officer.
There were two female candidates among those five and three males. All five were highly qualified, all came highly recommended, some by sitting MLAs. Three names were forwarded and they were given in order of merit.
The deputy minister ultimately responsible for that hiring chose to go, under his responsibility, to the second place candidate because it was an affirmative action candidate, a woman. (Interruptions) We had a work force survey done of this province. In that work force survey it was stated that we were very sadly lacking in the senior positions in this province in that they did not have females in those positions. The deputy ministers are responsible (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Let her respond.
MRS. NORRIE: All deputy ministers across government are responsible to follow the recommendations of that work force survey response to address affirmative action in highly placed positions of government. (Applause)
Mr. Speaker, second to that, under Section 8 of the fair hiring guidelines, deputy ministers can look at the order of merit and change it to deal with affirmative action. I am very pleased to say that this deputy minister, (Interruption) the deputy minister of the Premier's Office, who is ultimately responsible for hiring this person, has made the selection; he has written to inform the Deputy Minister of Human Resources as to why he has made this decision.
The job now has in it a good candidate in it, a highly qualified candidate who was chosen in a fair and open process. I am pleased to say that in the future we look forward to this government having a Chief of Protocol there who will do the job as good as or maybe better than the person who has done it for the past 25 years in this province. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. (Applause)
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party.
MR. JOHN HOLM: Mr. Speaker, I just want to say before I begin that I think the last Protocol Officer served this province very well indeed.
Now I listened to the minister's remarks and I am addressing my question to the Minister of Human Resources. The minister will have us believe that Ms. Colleen MacDonald was appointed to the position of Chief of Protocol on the basis of affirmative action, not on the basis of her Liberal connections and the fact that she used to work in the Premier's Office.
Now the minister talks about the affirmative action work survey. My question to the minister, dealing specifically with the affirmative action aspects, what affirmative action recruitment process was used before Ms. MacDonald was selected, first of all on an acting basis, and what affirmative action recruitment process was followed before the position was filled on a full-time basis?
HON. ELEANOR NORRIE: I think he is asking how the job was filled prior to this competition? I didn't hear the question. (Interruption)
AN HON. MEMBER: Well, what is the question?
MR. SPEAKER: It has been very difficult for all of us to hear this afternoon because the level of buzz in the Chamber is unusually high, I think. So could we all perhaps try to be as quiet as possible, so we can hear questions and answers.
MR. HOLM: Am I repeating my question so the minister can hear it, again, Mr. Speaker? Am I still on my first question?
MR. SPEAKER: My understanding is that the essence of the first question could perhaps be concisely put.
MR. HOLM: My question to the minister is, quite simply, what affirmative action recruitment process was followed before Ms. Colleen MacDonald was appointed, first on an acting basis, and what affirmative action recruitment process was followed before she was appointed on a permanent basis?
MRS. NORRIE: Mr. Speaker, I think if the member opposite would look at the Employment Opportunities bulletin, he will see that we have an Affirmative Action Program in this government and we encourage all affirmative action candidates, whether it be persons of colour or aboriginal or women, to apply for as many jobs as they feel they are qualified for. That is the program that is standard across government and I think everyone in this House understands that. (Applause)
MR. HOLM: The minister seems to be saying, as a recruitment process simply means to list on the employment advertisement notices that the province supposedly will take that into consideration.
The minister's action work force survey that she herself referred to says that every department and agency must develop a plan and set goals for the recruiting and also for the promoting from those within the designated groups.
My question to the minister is quite simply this, if the use of affirmative action is not just being used as an excuse, after the fact, to justify why Ms. MacDonald was appointed, I want to know what specific plan, in accordance with your own directive of September, was followed? What recruitment process was followed to give those over 6,000 women within the government's employ, an opportunity to be sought out, an equal opportunity for that job?
[12:30 p.m.]
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.
MRS. NORRIE: Mr. Speaker, I say again, the job was advertised in the Employment Opportunities bulletin and it is in every department of government and everyone is encouraged to apply for the job if they are qualified to do it.
MR. HOLM: Is it fair to say, then, that there was absolutely no recruitment and that the decision to, as your policy, as your directive of September states, the one that you, yourself, have referred to and of which I have a copy in my hand, is it fair to say that no recruitment process was followed, no attempts were made to seek out qualified people in the designated groups who could fill that position and that instead, when it came down to the final decision between a well-connected Liberal and another person, that after the fact you decided to use affirmative action as a justification for the selection?
MRS. NORRIE: Mr. Speaker, I am a little confused with the line of questioning. Is this member opposite disagreeing with the fact that we have chosen a female candidate? (Interruptions) If so, I do not understand why he is pushing.
AN HON. MEMBER: You are against affirmative action.
MRS. NORRIE: And I have to say, Mr. Speaker, further to that, that political affiliation does not preclude someone from receiving a job nor give them an opportunity more than anyone else has to get a job. This job is open to any Nova Scotian or anybody in Canada who is qualified for the job to apply for it and receive fair and open, fair hiring process to have them hired. (Applause)
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition.
MR. TERENCE DONAHOE: Mr. Speaker, my question is also to the Minister of Human Resources. My issue is a concern as to process and not as to, and I make no comment on the individual who has been named. I wonder if the minister would, since the advertisement which appeared in the blue sheets made no mention of affirmative action, the call was for a Chief of Protocol, Protocol Office, Competition No. 71-0002, closing date September 22, 1994. There is no mention of affirmative action for a $47,000 to $61,000 job.
I would like the Minister of Human Resources, please, to tell this House, at what point in the deliberations of the selection team, the two deputies and the third party - at what point was the matter of affirmative action raised with them as a relevant consideration in this hiring? At what point did that come into the play?
HON. ELEANOR NORRIE: Mr. Speaker, as Minister of Human Resources, I was not involved in the recruitment and I was not involved with the committee and I was not involved in raising any issue with them. Everybody who does the hiring within departments knows that we want to follow a fair hiring policy. We want to follow an affirmative action program. When the committee deliberated and put it forward to the deputy minister responsible, that is when the deputy minister responsible took it upon himself as part of his responsibility to address this issue from the Affirmative Action Program to exercise his right to select the person best qualified for the job using that criteria.
MR. DONAHOE: I wonder if by way of supplementary I might ask the Minister of Human Resources if she would table here in this House this afternoon the ratings which were attributed to all of the four or five who were short listed on the competition for the Chief of Protocol. Would she table that document showing those scores?
MRS. NORRIE: No, Mr. Speaker. Under the auspices of confidentiality, I will not release that.
MR. DONAHOE: So it is a distinct possibility then, that not only was the candidate selected by the process, not only not the top candidate, it is completely possible that she was the lowest of all the candidates.
MR. SPEAKER: I would rule that supplementary question out of order. It is too hypothetical. It is very highly hypothetical.
MR. DONAHOE: Well, it is not hypothetical.
MR. SPEAKER: It is on the judgment of the Chair.
MR. DONAHOE: I am saying that that is a possibility and I have not finished, Mr. Speaker, and I, therefore, want to ask the Minister of Human Resources, will she confirm for me that the person who was chosen was, in fact, the person who had accorded and made the lowest of the assessment marks in the course of the analysis by the interview team?
MRS. NORRIE: Mr. Speaker, I have to say that this line of questioning really quite astounds me because of some of the practices that have gone on in the past and the hiring in this province. It is quite astounding that this member opposite would make such accusations. The candidate chosen for this job was highly qualified. Three names went forward. One was a man, two were women. The second place candidate, being a woman, was chosen at the discretion of the deputy minister responsible.
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Kings West.
MR. GEORGE MOODY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. On December 20th, in the Legislature during Question Period, in answer to the Leader of the Opposition, he said that he would reveal details of the severance package for Communications Director, Neale Bennet, at his press conference later that day.
Well, the Premier had the press conference and the announcement about the new people, but we were never given any information about Neale Bennet's severance package. I would ask the Premier whether or not he fired his Communications Director, Neale Bennet, for just cause?
THE PREMIER: Mr. Speaker, it is obvious and I think if you spoke to the person next to you who was sitting there, your Leader of the Opposition, I did reveal those facts. I am sorry that they did not get to you. There must be a better system of communication. The amount was $17,000 or three months and that was what I announced at the press conference.
MR. MOODY: Well, I am glad to know that he got $17,000. I would ask the Premier whether he was let go for just cause, or not?
THE PREMIER: Mr. Speaker, the issue was that he was on contract for a year. We finished the year's salary in accordance with the terms that he entered.
MR. MOODY: My final supplementary is, I would ask the Premier what he would say to the hospital workers in Berwick who work and after five years get zero and Mr. Neale Bennet works less than a year and gets $17,000? What does he say to those poor hospital workers? Are there two standards, one for people in his office and one for people who work in hospitals in this province?
THE PREMIER: Mr. Speaker, I would not get into contrasting these at all. What I would say was that we entered into a contract with an articulate, ambitious young person. It did not work out for reasons that most people came to understand. We parted on good terms and we fulfilled the terms of his contract, just as most reasonable employers would.
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Pictou Centre.
DR. JOHN HAMM: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Community Services. There is no one in this House, I think, that is not bothered by the plight of the homeless, particularly in this city. Since the Nova Scotia summer has left us and the days have gotten colder, I think we become increasingly aware of the difficulties that are faced by the homeless in Halifax.
My question to the minister is one that Maria Keramaris of Dartmouth would like answered, as well. My question to the minister is, what is the government doing this time to meet the needs of the homeless in Nova Scotia, particularly in metro?
HON. JAMES SMITH: Mr. Speaker, that is a rather broad question, I guess, you would admit, but I will try to do as well as I can with it because this is an important issue, as the honourable member mentions, this time of year.
Our new main initiative that may be of interest to the honourable member is in the area of adolescent services, where within the long-term services to adolescents, better known, perhaps, as Phoenix House and those particular programs under Phoenix House. We have really, with the City of Dartmouth, and the particular municipal unit, and the honourable member would know that much of the immediate responsibility does fall within the municipal jurisdictions, but we have worked with, particularly in Halifax as an example, with Metro Turning Point where we now have a special unit within that particular building for adolescent services. So we have a continuum of services there like a resource centre, we have supervised apartments and also that short-term residency, emergency residency.
Also, our Department of Community Services, after meeting with a group of interested citizens and agencies within this particular metro community, we have funded a facilitator, if you would, a person who had been homeless, to work with people particularly in those areas of low rental properties that there is alleged abuse of the particular homeless, and this is a grave concern. I could go further, Mr. Speaker, but this is Question Period so I will just stop with that. It is a concern of our department, we have addressed several initiatives and we will continue to do that.
DR. HAMM: I thank the minister for his answer. I think the purpose of the question is to bring the problem to everyone's mind. The minister is quite right in terms of, I think, there are programs to provide shelter and food for the homeless in Halifax. Would the minister perhaps give us some indication or some idea as to remedial programs that are being undertaken or will be undertaken which will provide an avenue of the return to productivity and get the homeless really off the streets and to become not dependent on the facilities to which he has mentioned?
DR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, as the honourable member well knows, the issue of homelessness is a very complex issue. Some, perhaps, by choice that they don't live in a particular family unit; others, of course, through misfortune or areas of low employment or no employment. So I would look to the Department of Community Services, in particular, providing areas with our new program called the Compass Program, which particularly targeted young people on social assistance, unmarried mothers that are more vulnerable to suffer the issues surrounding adequate rental properties and those particular issues.
There are programs that the department funds in a more active way, Hope Farm, the honourable member may be aware of that in the Gays River Road area and those other initiatives. But it is particularly within the framework of supplementation and programs relative to the WEPSAR Program, the Compass Program and others that we are targeting that particular group.
I think the early intervention program and the approach we are taking to social reform, where we look at not just the categorical, whether you are disabled or whether you are a single parent, but more open as we move to a one-tiered system such as in the Sydney area involving 20 per cent of the population of Nova Scotia, where we are now looking at short- and long-term assistance and coupled with supplemental incomes and also work top up and all the other issues. We had a presentation from Newfoundland this morning that highlights a type of program. So we have to do this all within the context of the changing of the social reform at the federal level.
It is an exciting challenge, Mr. Speaker. It is one that we are looking forward to. I think we can do a good job in that area and hope build on as to what has been done already.
DR. HAMM: Mr. Speaker, I didn't think I have a supplementary, but I do. By way of final supplementary to the minister, he made mention of the Compass Program and I believe that he circulated some information that there were 162 successful applications of that program.
[12:45 p.m.]
Would the minister comment if any resident of Adsum House or Turning Point or Hope Cottage had actually participated in the Compass Program to this point?
DR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, that would be an area that I would have to look at. One would hope, perhaps, that would be part of the outreach program, particularly within Adsum House. But specifically, as minister, I try not to learn of names but I certainly would be interested in the programs.
I would provide to the honourable member the information, as well as I could, with the sensitivity of confidentiality, yes.
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Halifax Fairview.
MS. ALEXA MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Finance, in regard to his responsibilities for gaming matters. It was reported almost six months ago that the government had made a proposal to the Mi'Kmaq leadership in the province, suggesting the establishment of a Mi'Kmaq gaming authority. I wonder if the minister could inform the House on what the status is of the province's negotiations with the Mi'Kmaq concerning gaming authority and any policies associated with it?
HON. BERNARD BOUDREAU: Mr. Speaker, I will inform the honourable member and the House that negotiations have occurred between the Government of Nova Scotia and the Micmac Nation involving, and specifically I can speak of my own involvement, having to do with taxation and gaming in general.
A number of issues have been raised, discussions have been held back and forth. I don't think it is appropriate to detail individual proposals and counterproposals. Suffice to say that no agreement has been reached to date. The negotiations and the discussions still continue.
MS. MCDONOUGH: Well, I thank the minister for that disappointing report, in the sense that I think there are a lot of people on the Mi'Kmaq reserves who are very concerned about illegal gaming activity going on and would want to see a negotiated agreement reached with the province in regard to this matter.
But, Mr. Speaker, some members of this government have suggested that the real reason for the indecent haste of this government in charging ahead with the designation of casinos for Halifax and industrial Cape Breton is to pre-empt any Mi'Kmaq initiatives to establish on-reserve gambling casinos. I wonder if the minister could confirm whether this is, at least in part, the reason for the government's indecent haste?
MR. BOUDREAU: Well, I think I would have to take exception to the indecent haste phrase which framed the honourable member's question and attribute it to her enthusiasm, rather than to any mischievous intent.
I want to say, first of all, that the discussions we have had have, in some measure, been quite promising but there are very serious issues outstanding, both in taxation and in gaming and this problem has been difficult to resolve in a comprehensive way. But we have not given up hope and I don't think Micmac representatives across the province have either. Our decision and our timing to proceed with casinos in Nova Scotia had nothing to do with these negotiations.
MS. MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, the minister can suggest that it has nothing to do with negotiations with the Mi'Kmaq, despite the fact that some of his members offered that as the only reason why they have reluctantly supported the casino initiative. I wonder if the minister could explain, if the native issues have absolutely nothing to do with charging ahead with the designation of these casinos, the rather bizarre and rather inappropriate reference to natives contained in his November 21st letter to a former Liberal research staffer, when the minister wrote as follows: "I am optimistic that the benefits of job creation, revenues to the Province to help cover the essential services . . . and the value added benefit to our tourism industry will outweigh the natives that may be associated with this industry.". Does this not show a rather odd pre-occupation with the issue of the native aspect of the gaming matter?
MR. SPEAKER: This document should now be tabled, please. Would the document be tabled?
MS. MCDONOUGH: Send the minister over a copy of his own letter if his memory needs to be refreshed.
MR. BOUDREAU: Well, Mr. Speaker, it not only shows - I forget what the phrase was - strange intent, it shows strange grammar and syntax, so I can't make any sense out of the phrase, but I would be more than happy to review it and confer with the member privately on it or if she wishes to raise the question later or in future days.
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley.
MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communication. I received a copy of a letter from the minister's department's Director of Public Affairs and Communications recently telling me that information on transportation tenders were available at the public tenders office and that I could examine them at any time. There was no need to go through the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act. I did appreciate the letter but it did contain some information that I already knew.
I believe the letter was a direct result of the minister not being interested in getting staff to, as he said, Mr. Speaker, load a dump truck full of tenders and bring them onto the floor of the Legislature. With that in mind, I can tell the minister that a dinky toy could carry the public tenders that were let in Cole Harbour-Musquodoboit Valley since he became minister. I asked the minister in this Legislature on December 14th, if he could provide me with a list of transportation contracts awarded in his riding of Richmond since June 11, 1993 and the minister said, I have no difficulty whatsoever in providing that information. I wonder, does he still intend to provide that information?
HON. RICHARD MANN: Mr. Speaker, I have often wondered in his House - as many did years past - how they ever got the former member for that riding to come in from the hospital every day to vote. When I got to the Department of Transportation and looked at the books, it wasn't hard to see how, in fact, they had actually got him here. A lot of the remarks that he has made here with respect to dinkies and salt trucks and everything I guess, I think they actually came up as a result of some House Orders he had submitted, one which I have right in front of me.
He wanted, for example, expenditures for road work in each constituency - it didn't say capital, it didn't say operating - I don't know what he meant by road work. I indicated to him in response to a response earlier on in this session that I didn't have any difficulty in providing him with a list of contracts awarded in Richmond County from June 11, 1993. I think he wanted a list of contracts also awarded in Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley from November 2, 1993 and I told him I would even go back further than that and provide him the list in both of those constituencies.
MR. TAYLOR: In fact, in my final supplementary that afternoon, back on December 14th, and I am not sure if the minister changed his mind but I also asked him about the contracts in Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley and he explained the system had undergone great change. He reminded us again that the province was now divided up into four districts and that constituency by constituency road work was no longer being kept. If this is the case, how can Nova Scotians have confidence that Department of Transportation and Communication work, is actually being done on your so-called merit system and not at the whim and wish of you, the minister? (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please, now we want to hear the answer.
MR. MANN: We can bring back the old filing system, the greens, the blues and the reds. If he wants to reintroduce that filing system that was alive and well for so many years. Once again, I will explain to the member how the system works. It is not difficult to go out and to get a list of contracts, capital contracts, construction projects that are put out to tender and that are opened at a public tenders office very publicly. The member can go and he can get a list of all of those, that is documented. The bids are there, how many people, what the prices were, whether anybody was disqualified, it is completely open and transparent. It is not hard to determine where a road is or where a project is and identify that riding by riding.
What the member had asked for was a list of operating as well, riding by riding, and that is not kept any longer. For example, we do not have those riding-by-riding slush funds at the discretion of the ministers. They are gone. Those slush funds that each and every government MLA had in their riding, those are gone. Now what we do, Mr. Speaker, four district directors, who are very qualified and competent individuals, go out and they look at the requests in their riding, they look at the priorities in their riding and they submit those lists of priorities, in each of four districts, to head office. A team at head office, very competent engineering and senior staff people, sit down and they look at those lists. Then, based on the amount of revenues in any category of road construction, or a budget item such as county road upgrading or new road paving or 100-Series Highway repaving or twining, they will priorize the list from the four districts into one priority list for the province and we will award the tenders or put it out to tender on those projects until the funding in that item runs out. It is very simple.
In the operating side, the district directors allocate the funds within their district based on need; I don't interfere in that, and the members of the Executive Council don't interfere in that. I am sure the member opposite who is asking these questions has requests of his district director on occasion. I am sure many of those requests that he puts forward for maintenance and the normal course of operation are looked after. I don't know about them. We don't know about them at head office. They are done within the district by the authority of the district director. (Applause)
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary is simply this, the minister indicated that he would supply me with a list of the public tenders that were awarded in his constituency. He promised me that he would provide me with a list of the public tenders that were let by the Department of Transportation. Just so we are clear, Department of Transportation and Communication public tenders that were let in Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley since June 11, 1993, will the minister, yes or no, provide me with that information, and when?
MR. MANN: Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, if I had time, I could run down to the public tender office myself this afternoon and get them for him or, perhaps, take him with me and we could get all the public information that is there.
Mr. Speaker, I indicated to him that I would get him those lists. I put in a request to do it. I can tell you that, in attempting to maintain the roads of Nova Scotia and provide ice control and snow removal, we did not stop all the processes in the department to rush out and get that done, but we will get that done. The request is in and we will provide it to him. Like I say, I will even go back further than the dates he has mentioned, so he can have a good comparison of how this system has worked over the years.
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Kings West.
MR. GEORGE MOODY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the honourable Minister of Health. The minister has stated, on a number of occasions, that one of the goals of health reform is to reduce costs. I think the minister has also stated that health care can be improved through community based health care, delivered by, I think, a variety of health care providers. I think he said that, too.
There is one group, the CNAs - and I am sure he is aware of the work of the CNAs -would the minister give me a brief outline, if any, of a role that he sees the CNAs playing in health care reform in the province in the next number of years?
HON. RONALD STEWART: Mr. Speaker, I could simply say, and very briefly, that certified nursing assistants have a key role to play, both currently in our health care system and also in the future. They have been very proactive, if I could use the term, in defining their current role and also suggesting a future course for their particular profession and their professional aspirations. We welcome this discussion and dialogue that we have continued after it having been established in the previous administration. We certainly look forward to further discussions along those lines. They have opportunities which will be opening as community health services take root in each community and I would welcome their suggestions, as the honourable gentleman opposite has in the past.
[1:00 p.m.]
MR. MOODY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for that answer. It is a very good answer and I think the CNAs will appreciate that answer. I do believe that the minister is sincere in including them in the health reform, as it takes place.
I would ask the minister what, if anything, he is doing to prevent the IWK Hospital from eliminating all 22 CNA positions at the IWK, as of January 1996? Is he concerned about that? If he is, what is he doing?
DR. STEWART: Yes, Mr. Speaker, this was brought to my attention. I discussed it informally with the people at the IWK. This was a policy decision and the decision made on the basis of their long-range planning. It is a decision by the hospital and again, the decision was made, I think, sensitively. They will be very careful not to displace and not to cause undue disruption but, nonetheless, that is a policy decision in that hospital's administration.
MR. MOODY: Given that it is a policy decision, given that the money for the hospital comes from the Province of Nova Scotia, I would ask the minister if he has any concern in the fact that obviously RNs will demand about twice the salary as a CNA. I would ask the minister if there is any concern about the level of care that may happen. With budgets shrinking and less people working, obviously, I would hope and I am sure that the work the CNAs have been doing at the IWK, has been up to standard and has been quality care. I would ask the minister if, with shrinking budgets, he has a concern that other hospitals move to eliminating all CNAs and going with strictly RNs, that that would not drive up the cost of our health care system?
DR. SMITH: Yes, in this case, Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, the decision was not based necessarily on costs, in terms of saving, or, in fact, expansion of expenditures but, rather, that there were some role changes and different programs that had to be accommodated. I was satisfied with that explanation, certainly in the short term. In the long term we will be watching the changes in that particular program at the IWK.
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Hants West.
MR. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance, in his capacity as minister responsible for the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission. I had the good fortune to be the minister in control of the Liquor Commission for seven or eight years and, as such, I know a number of the people who operate licensed premises. Over the Christmas period, as one does, one gets around and meets some of these people. (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please, so we can hear the question.
MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, a large number - when I say a large number, I mean well over 50 per cent of them - when we spoke about business, mentioned to me that they had a very bad period of time with the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission with regard to stock-outs. I was wondering if the minister was aware of that problem and, if so, what action has he taken to rectify it?
HON. BERNARD BOUDREAU: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have had some contact from individuals who have raised specific problems. I don't know how widespread that situation is but I did raise it in a meeting with senior officials at the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission and they are presently reviewing it, in general, and indeed, as I believe, addressed the two or three specific instances that I raised with them.
MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, it may not seem to be a very serious matter but, in truth, it is, because restaurants in particular come up with menus and have them printed. They print their wine list on the basis of what the Liquor Commission gives them, in the way of listings, and also as to whether or not there will be a supply over the next 12 month period. As a result, as I say, a number of restaurateurs in particular, have menus now which they cannot use.
A second question to the minister, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that there also seems to be some difficulty with people who are in the retail side of the liquor business, being able to speak to the powers that be in the Liquor Commission and the Liquor License Board. As you know, those particular people have a lot of power in that the licensees have only one source of supply. They are a little disturbed that perhaps they are not getting as much attention as they should be getting. I was wondering if the minister would take that under advisement and ensure that those organizations which represent the lounge owners, restaurant owners and other licensed premises, have a ready access to the powers that be in those two particular fields?
MR. BOUDREAU: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the honourable member's concern; it is legitimate to a point. I think, for example, we have taken some initiatives in having the tourist association meet with the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission so that there is a little more give and take there. The problems with supply for the most part, as far as I am aware, deal with the more exotic brands of wine and beer and other liquors and liqueurs, but those situations are being addressed. In terms of people not being able to get through and have meaningful discussions with the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission, I haven't had any of those complaints lately and I would certainly be prepared to raise the matter with the senior officials of the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission.
It is a bit of a different situation with the Liquor License Board because I know on occasion I have had contact from operators after they have been involved in an alleged offence, and we have taken the position that we will not speak to the Liquor Commission regarding that nor would we encourage them to speak to a member of the Liquor License Board since there is a semi-judicial function there. So, that may be some of what is coming back but, certainly, with the Liquor Commission there is no reason why we shouldn't encourage a better dialogue.
MR. RUSSELL: The reasons that are given for stock-outs and for low quantities of various alcoholic beverages are many and varied and they range from being unable to get containers or the winery itself has run out of that particular vintage and what have you. However, in many cases, this is very thin water. It is not factual; it is just simply a fact that there has been bad management, if I may say so. Having said that, I think that in general those who own licensed premises are increasingly worried about the fact that the G-7 is going to be here and there is going to be, I would think, a large run on the various licensed premises and yet the Liquor Commission hasn't even given consideration to the necessary obtaining of stock for that period of time and, as I say, if this past year is any indication, then we will have a bad year.
MR. BOUDREAU: Mr. Speaker, to a certain extent there is a balance that has to be achieved in terms of availability of stock. We have told the Liquor Commission to run it as an efficient business. Sometimes the availability of stock to answer every need in every case would require an inventory which wouldn't make sense from a business point of view. That is not to minimize the problem that the honourable member raises. Specifically, with G-7, he makes a good point and I undertake to discuss within a very short period of time with senior officials of the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission to ensure that they have a plan to recognize what may be a very much increased demand in that period.
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct my question through you to the Minister of Community Services. In December, the minister released publicly the report that was conducted, a review of the activities in Lunenburg Family and Children's Services Agency and, in the process of releasing that document, the minister apologized on behalf of the government to the victims of child sexual abuse. I would like to ask the minister what he, in his department, has done to identify all those victimized in this process such as those four children who Steven Henderson pleaded guilty to sexually abusing back in 1991? What has he done to identify all of the victims of child sexual abuse and what is he doing to initiate discussions with respect to compensation?
HON. JAMES SMITH: Mr. Speaker, as Minister of Community Services I have received the report. It was very professionally done by two competent social workers who have high standing throughout this country. We have followed their recommendations. As I mentioned in the House yesterday, we have a process in place that is an open one and those that come forward will be addressed in a most serious manner.
MR. CHISHOLM: Mr. Speaker, the minister appears to have stated outside this House, yesterday, that questions of compensation with respect to the victims of child sexual abuse involved with the Lunenburg Family and Children's Services Agency, that the question of compensation may be delayed because of the investigations that are also being conducted into the Shelburne School for Boys, and the Truro School for Girls.
That was never ever raised, Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge, when the report was released and when the minister made his commitment to initiate discussions on compensation. I would like to ask the minister if he would, in fact, confirm that he made that statement and that that is his position with respect to compensation?
DR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, there was a time when I had a great deal of respect for the research abilities of that Third Party. Now it seems like they are running from the media. I hesitate to comment on that because I don't want to really carry this - it is a very sensitive issue, it is a very important issue. It involves that abuse of children that have been very badly damaged.
I would ask the honourable member that, if he has some questions and some concerns, that he correspond with me and he not prepare his questions for the House from the media the evening before. Because I think many times this is misleading and, in fact, not totally correct. I hesitate to really respond to this because he is probably quoting or thinking of the media presentations today. I don't want to be drawn into that, Mr. Speaker. This is a very serious matter.
I believe what he is referring to, my understanding is, that the issue relative to those who have been abused within the institutions, such as Shelburne and the Nova Scotia Youth Training Centre and those particular issues I may have been referring to, that they have two avenues to go. They can come forward either through the legal process where they come to the Department of Community Services, we will refer them to the Department of Justice and that will be looked after there. The second one is to appear before Judge Stratton, who is a very sensitive and caring human being and I am sure they will be given every consideration.
We have not ceased. Any issues of compensation that are in progress at this time are continuing and are not being delayed by any hearing or any recommendations that have come out of the reports. They are proceeding. We have no outstanding requests before us, that I know of, as of yesterday and, actually, an hour ago. I know it is a long question, Mr. Speaker. It is a very sensitive issue. There is a lot of misunderstanding, I believe, there, and it really concerns me that this issue must be fought in the media when it is such a sensitive issue. I will try to do as best as I can to answer as truthfully and as honestly as I can before this House and these people, this is a very serious issue and we will deal with the victims of this terrible abuse that most of us even find hard to believe took place over the years. Thank you. (Applause)
MR. CHISHOLM: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the minister's response to that question. It is difficult with an issue like this. We are certainly getting different information, sometimes conflicting, from the sources, from the victims themselves, from their representatives, from the minister, from his officials and the information that is presented in the media sometimes needs to be clarified and I feel that this is a good point and that is why I asked the minister if he would clarify it. I think he did, in that he said that what was reported in the Halifax Chronicle-Herald, in particular, was in fact not the case, and I thank him for that.
[1:15 p.m.]
Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary to the minister would be, could he give us some conclusive indication here, today, that his department is, in fact, involved in a process to identify the victims of child sexual abuse who were involved with the Lunenburg Family and Children's Services Agency and to begin the process of either involving them in counselling and/or participating in negotiation with respect to compensation?
DR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member. I think this is a valid and fair question and I will try to respond as well as I can. There is a process in place that involves the agency which is really the Lunenburg agency which is autonomous and it also must be held accountable for what has happened, so that is why they are particularly involved.
The Department of Justice and lawyers within our department are involved and a lot of the work that has been done, corresponding with people coming forward, has been dealt with in our particular department. The issue of compensation is ongoing and this is what concerns me about some of the reports we are hearing that nothing is being done. Several of those people who have come forward, the victims who have suffered greatly, are now under therapy. That is being provided through our Department of Community Services. Also, I might say, travel costs and other costs are also currently being addressed.
The identification, I have asked for all the names of those who have come forward and given their testimony, which is very difficult for them. Mr. Speaker, sometimes people have to come forward in their own time and others can be identified and more sought after but we have done and will continue to do what we can, in the most sensitive manner. Those who have given testimony within court, I specifically have asked for the names of those people. I am not sure how we will deal with that particularly, we can't force them into any treatment or compensation but we will certainly be open and available to them.
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Pictou West.
MR. DONALD MCINNES: My question is for the Minister of Labour. On November 2nd I asked the minister in regard to Pictou Industries and the fact that they were applying for the POWA, the Program for Older Worker Adjustment. At that time the minister said it was going to be a matter of several weeks before anything happens. I will make my question brief because I know the time is running out.
HON. JAY ABBASS: Yes, actually, Mr. Speaker, since the last question in the House things have progressed pretty well. It appears that we have identified 34 older workers who might very well qualify under the POWA. Back on December 2, 1994, they were informed of their potential eligibility. Federal and provincial representatives have met since that date. Workers are currently collecting documents for their files, documents needed to substantiate their claims. It is expected, and I want to emphasize that this is tentative, that we would go to tender, so to speak, some time near the end of this month and hopefully, by March or April, the workers will be paid.
I hope that gives some comfort to the workers who are, I know, waiting with great expectation for news of this.
MR. MCINNES: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for bringing us up-to-date on that matter. I know he is saying maybe March. The fact is that the yard was shut down in June. Some of those workers were laid off prior to that, so their unemployment insurance has actually run out now. So I would just say to the minister, would he please try to proceed with the matter as quickly as possible because it is very important to those workers.
MR. ABBASS: Yes, I am not sure that there is much to add, Mr. Speaker, except that I would like to reassure the member opposite that I am urging people within my department and, through them, the federal individuals involved in this program, to use all haste in making sure that the workers who are entitled to payment under the Program for Older Worker Adjustment are paid as soon as possible.
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Kings North.
MR. GEORGE ARCHIBALD: My question, through you, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Agriculture, is with regard to a new discovery they have made in the United States regarding the honey bee population in 15 states, from Massachusetts all the way through to Colorado. One of their scientists has stated that this new disease can wipe out an entire colony. It is called the parasitic mite syndrome and it is causing great concern among beekeepers throughout the United States. At the current time, your department is carrying on a study of the closed border situation that we have to keep out other parasites that have been bothering bees in other areas. Are you prepared at this time to indicate to the committee that they must come back and indicate that with this new disease that is prevalent that we must continue with our closed borders?
HON. WAYNE GAUDET: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the honourable member for his question. As the honourable member indicated, we have a study that is presently being undertaken to examine the bee industry in Nova Scotia, not strictly to the border closure but also to work directly with the Beekeepers Association, the Blueberry Association, along with the fruit growers. I must also indicate that these concerns that have been brought by some of these associations have also been brought to the people that are conducting the study. I expect the study will be coming forth early in the new year with some recommendations.
I certainly will bring back the member's concern directly to the department's staff to make sure that this particular item has been addressed. Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The time allotted for the Oral Question Period has expired.
The honourable Government House Leader.
HON. RICHARD MANN: Mr. Speaker, I move that you do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole House on Bills.
MR. SPEAKER: The motion is carried.
[1:22 p.m. The House resolved itself into a CWH on Bills with Deputy Speaker Mr. Gerald O'Malley in the Chair.]
[5:59 p.m. CWH on Bills rose and the House reconvened. Mr. Speaker, Hon. Paul MacEwan, resumed the Chair.]
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The draw this afternoon was won by the honourable member for Halifax Fairview. The motion she wishes to debate is:
Therefore be it resolved that this government deliver on its commitment to family oriented, community-based services to enhance independence and dignity of Nova Scotians with disabilities.
ADJOURNMENT
MOTION UNDER RULE 5(5)
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Halifax Fairview.
MS. ALEXA MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity this evening in the few brief moments available during late debate to address a matter that I consider to be of the utmost urgency. One that is very strongly and widely felt, I think, by a lot of Nova Scotians, both by those who are directly afflicted by disabilities, whether we are talking about children, youth or adults, and by all of those Nova Scotians who had earnestly hoped for some real progress to be made under this new government with respect to aiding the objective of independent living and moving towards a more family oriented and community-based system of human services and supports to individuals with disabilities and families attempting to provide support to family members with disabilities, whether they be physical, mental or emotional.
Mr. Speaker, I know that the resolution I submitted is a harsh one. It is in my honest view a reflection of the great frustration that is felt by the vast majority of those who have brought their concerns to the attention of this government and have been very disappointed by the response to date that they have received from this government. So, that is why I submitted the resolution that this government deliver on its commitment to family oriented, community-based services to enhance the independence and dignity of Nova Scotians with disabilities instead of masking problems, erecting new barriers, withdrawing crucial supports and stalling on recommended policy changes at every turn.
Mr. Speaker, I recently had the opportunity to meet with a group of people representative of families who have children within their families that have physical or mental disabilities. Let me say clearly that some of the children about whom we are speaking are in their own homes with their own families, some of the children are in foster homes, some of the children are in small options homes and some of the children about whom we are talking are in Children's Training Centres or in the Youth Training Centre in this province. Of course, that means we are talking here about a very wide range of needs and a very diverse group of disabilities and a vast range of family circumstances in terms of their financial, their physical, their emotional capability of providing the kind of support that is needed for their children.
Let me say clearly that there were several things that united those families and brought them together. I think the clearest and most unequivocal message from those families and the thing that most clearly links them together is the unanimous view that we, as a society, we, as a province, and they, as families attempting to ensure quality support to their children with disabilities, are losing ground, not gaining ground under this government. It is more difficult today to provide the care that their children require than it was a year and one-half ago when this government came to power, despite the assurances that this was going to be a priority.
Mr. Speaker, I am not going to go through a long litany of the things on which the government has either brought in cutbacks or failed to move forward. I could go into each of those individually, the failure to implement an effective program of comprehensive technical aids, the failure to bring in regulations for small options homes, the fact that we still have no meaningful comprehensive home care system in this province and certainly none as it relates to the needs of children. An almost total absence of any kind of a respite care program that could be described as a program, a service that is available except on the most restrictive and inaccessible basis.
The fact that this government has slashed the shelter supports for family members living with their own families so that the income of those individuals with disabilities has been slashed to a meagre $2,088 a year maximum because the government has wiped out the shelter allowance and, of course, rather than aid independent living, what that has done in many cases is put financial pressure on families to encourage or respond to the inclination of a disabled member of the family to move out of the household into the community where there are inadequate supports. So, of course, it becomes a pro-institutionalization policy, one that accelerates the dependency and the institutionalization of such disabled persons.
Mr. Speaker, I could go on at length about the concerns, but I want to zero in, specifically, on a very major concern that was brought to my attention when I met with these families recently and that is the sense of utter despair and disappointment, on the one hand, that the government's announced support for the recommendations of the minister's advisory committee on services to children and youth with mental disabilities, the fact that the announced support from the government simply has not been forthcoming.
The minister, I am sure, can point to very isolated situations, can point to certain circumstances in which, in the instance of a family whose child or youth has been moved out of a training centre, that there have, indeed, been some very special arrangements made in a certain limited number of circumstances. But, of course, what we have always known is that there are a lot of families out there in this community who are not tied in any way, have not been tied to children's training centres and, also, Mr. Speaker, those who have very reluctantly made the decision to place their children in those training centres, continue to be absolutely committed to trying to play a major role in support of their own children, whether it is in their own home, in a small option home or whatever, but desperately require a system of human services support that simply does not exist.
Mr. Speaker, the other aspect of the concern brought forward, and I really hope that the minister will address this this evening, is that there was a response from the government to concerns that were raised about the existing operation of children's training centres and a review process was conducted. Of course, the minister well knows that in October 1994, there was a report with recommendations coming out of that review of the children's training centres.
There was really a feeling of utter despair expressed by families, that although the government appeared to be responding to allegations of physical and, in at least one case, sexual abuse, suffered by some children in those homes, the review process that was reported upon and from which recommendations were made to the government, appears to have been undercut, really, before it even completed the process and done so in two ways; the first being that instead of there being the kind of inquiry that was really needed, the kind of inquiry that would ensure that people were required to appear, in other words, that there is the power to subpoena witnesses to look into situations, to fully and properly investigate them and to require that people give sworn testimony. We had, once again, that kind of sweeping review process which, by the very report that was brought forward, makes it clear that the specific allegations were never even addressed.
Not only were there no conclusions reached, not only were there no recommendations for remedial action or compensation in the instance of alleged abuse, there were not even any findings in relation to the instances of abuse that had been alleged, nor was there any indication that the specific complaints of abuse were even fully investigated. In fact, the opposite is true, Mr. Speaker. There seems to be a kind of general attitude, well, you know, how could we hope to get to the bottom of allegations of abuse in the instance of mentally disabled children who are not in a position to speak for themselves.
You know, one of the families made a very important point when this came up for discussion and that is that we do not say, in the instance of alleged infant abuse, well, you cannot expect the infant to speak about their circumstances and document what happened to them and, therefore, we cannot have any way of trying to get to the bottom of it. For that matter, Mr. Speaker, in the instance of the death of an infant or the death of any person, we do not say we cannot conduct a proper inquiry and investigation and get to the bottom of what happened and take whatever action is appropriate because someone is no longer alive and able to give testimony.
So, Mr. Speaker, I hope the minister will speak to this. The Speaker has indicated that my time is up. In sitting down, I could also indicate that I think it is a serious problem that the experts services of the Roeher Institute were effectively undermined in the manner in which the final report was made. I look forward to the minister addressing these concerns.
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Pictou Centre.
DR. JOHN HAMM: Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the member for Halifax Fairview for bringing to the late show debate tonight what is a very important subject and one that should occupy perhaps more of our time than it does in this House, that is the problem of the integration of those with special needs into the mainstream of community life in this province.
There certainly can be no greater focus for a society than to support the integration and success of those citizens who are mentally and/or physically challenged into the mainstream of Nova Scotia life. There could be - I cannot imagine any greater achievement than ensuring that the needs to see these individuals are met and that they truly are able to live a normal lifestyle that the majority of us are privileged to enjoy.
The crux of the NDP resolution is that this Liberal Government make good on its promise which would enhance independence and dignity of Nova Scotians with disabilities. I have every hope that it is the intention of the Premier and the Minister of Community Services, with the support of the rest of Cabinet, to see that this is achieved. However, I was particularly disturbed when last summer this government made what I thought was a very callous move. The issue of which I speak was the reduction of the shelter allowance for severely disabled persons living with members of their own family. This was in complete contradiction to the government's keen interest in the integration of the mentally and physically challenged from institutions to community life. Reducing the allowance was threatening to force some families to place their family member in the Small Options Program, at what would be a much greater cost to the government. This was unwise, both on a compassionate and financial level. Instead of rewarding a family for taking on the responsibility of caring for their relative in the home, they were increasing the financial burden on them. Government support to allow families to keep challenged relatives in their own home should be encouraged and not discouraged.
The family income cap that was applied, as of August 1, 1994, was too restrictive. Even after the minister's reversal on that decision, I continue to have calls from those who are financially threatened by the remaining income restrictions. I believe that the decision of the minister should also be reviewed, to fall in line with this government's community services policy of integration. There certainly was no consultation with the stakeholders before this new policy was announced.
It would seem appropriate that those families and individuals affected should have had a chance to air their views and concerns before this program was so drastically altered. This, regardless of our financial state, was unconscionable.
The alternative left for some families still is the small options home. I am very concerned for those individuals who will need to pursue that alternative and that this province has yet to push forward with any regulations for the small options homes.
Now, having said what I have just said, I certainly congratulate the minister to the point that in light of very strong objections brought forward by Nova Scotians with special needs, that he was prepared to listen with one ear and to alter the level of income, which would eliminate the shelter allowance. But I would have been even more pleased had the minister listened with both ears and had eliminated the means test entirely for those relatives who are sheltering disabled persons or disabled relatives within their homes. The small amount of money that would be required to make a complete exclusion of an income or a means test for the relatives would certainly, I think, be a worthwhile gesture on behalf of the department in terms of meeting its obligation which it laid out for itself during the last election.
[6:15 p.m.]
As it stands now, anyone in the province could open up a small options home to those requiring the service and could receive the appropriate government funding. This is becoming more and more relevant, certainly the Small Options Program first of all, if in fact, shelter allowances are withdrawn from families which would require them to seek out the Small Options Program and also with the closing of institutions again which will increase the utilization of the Small Options Program.
The Small Options Program is one with which I am quite familiar as it is certainly up and running and active in my community. It is a program that certainly is to be encouraged and it is one that is encouraged by the Canadian Association for Community Living and I certainly endorse the records. But, we do require, in that Small Options Program, guidelines, both for the level of accommodation, guidelines for the staffing of those particular small option programs. It is my understanding that the department is working on some staffing regulations. I certainly would like to point out to the minister that the level of care, the educational component that is available in the Small Options Program for younger Nova Scotians with special needs does not match that which was available at the Nova Scotia Youth Training Centre in Truro.
When we talk about the reintegration or the integration of disabled persons back into the mainstream of community life the educational component which will allow them to do that is extremely critical particularly during the adolescent years. I am pessimistic at the ability of the educational system of the province through the Department of Education to provide the same level of education which is directed to allowing these individuals to reintegrate or to integrate into community life that that level of training will not be available in the program that is proposed to replace that training that was available at the youth training centre.
Another issue that is disturbing in this particular context, as institutions like the youth training centre are being closed, is that the Department of Education is cutting down on the essential teacher assistant positions that are so helpful in integrating these people with special needs into the classroom. There is no way that our teachers can cope with the increasing number of students with special needs without adequate assistance in the classroom. It is not fair to the teacher, and it is not fair to the students needing the assistant along with the others in the classroom with their own needs.
In closing, I would urge the Minister of Community Services to continue his interest in Nova Scotia with special needs but to be mindful of the fact that without adequate programs and without adequate funding these people will not be able to make the transition to which I am sure that he as an individual is committed. Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER: Before I recognize the minister, I would like to recognize the presence in the gallery of a most distinguished visitor and guest, the Warden of the Municipality of the County of Cape Breton, Mr. John Coady. Could we give Warden Coady a most enthusiastic welcome here this evening. (Applause)
The honourable Minister of Community Services.
HON. JAMES SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I too, welcome the opportunity to discuss initiatives that are underway to support the principle of normalization and community living. I don't think there is any other area that I have found as a new minister and a member of a new government that there was more need for programs, as the member for Pictou Centre has just well put it. To deny those facts would really be flying in the face of reality and what is really happening.
I think the area of difficulty is with times of readjustment and change and trying to get a hold of a bit of a balanced budget and get spending and other initiatives under control. I think it has been a very difficult area to bring in those new programs that are so badly needed.
We are speaking about children and adults today, Mr. Speaker, and I think sometimes children are sometimes forgotten in this when you hear the discussions.
Mr. Speaker, there is no question the need for the caregivers and support for the caregivers and the stress that families go under, family stress, and so many times we are seeing not only the difficulties with the particular disabled person within that family but also the stresses within those families.
I think the current review of Judge Stratton will be addressing some of the areas of child abuse and I will address those directly. But I am always sort of interested in this inquiry that all of a sudden when something like this comes along, there is a great need for an inquiry to give immunity and have people come forward. I tend to believe, Mr. Speaker, that people of Nova Scotia must recognize, if they are aware of abuse and things that aren't quite right, that they have an obligation really to come forward and to bring these matters before the proper people, especially if there is an investigation and there is a process in place addressing these issues.
I can't respond to all of the member's questions, Mr. Speaker, because some of it really involves confidentiality and she did have some misinformation relative to the lack of investigation. I must say that recently there has been relative to the care of children within one training centre, there was arbitration and I was very dismayed at the results of that arbitration where we were directed to put that person back as a caregiver of children. Yet, we had letters from an institution and other areas expressing concern to us about the care. That really bothers me as to how we as a department really can do what we feel is best and yet others who represent the interests of the employee see it differently.
I will mention briefly the shelter allowance, that 93 per cent of the people at this time are not affected by the changes, the move that we did to readjust some of the monies within the program more in line with other provinces within the Atlantic Region. I think one thing we learned from that is once you give people money, don't take it away from them. Other provinces had not started to give it to those particular boarders that we were mentioning. So, I think they haven't run into some of the difficulties perhaps. However, we would all like to be doing more. I certainly hope that we can move towards some sort of a guaranteed income for adult persons with disabilities and I know that that is at least on the agenda at the federal level.
So contrary to the motion moved for debate by the honourable member, Mr. Speaker, there has been significant progress in terms of providing opportunities that support community living. Nevertheless, I recognize that we still have a lot of work ahead of us before we see the kind of community-based services we want in place across this province.
We know that we have to build and maintain more effective partnerships with service providers, family members, advocates and other government departments to provide the network of service required to support community living. We have been working hard to that end.
Number one, I would mention and this has come up in debate today, the deinstitutionalization and also small options discussion papers. This is one of the first requests that I made as the minister. It has been very difficult, there have been many demands on staff but we do have both of these ready to be released; hopefully, the deinstitutionalization discussion paper will be available at the end of this month. The small options discussion paper is also being prepared and both will be broadly circulated for the stakeholder input and consultations on both will be held.
Under the individual planning process to support outplacement efforts for children presently residing in the Children's Training Centres and the Youth Training Centre, the department has established a project team to work closely with parents, service providers and other stakeholders to identify services required to support children in the community.
The project team is headed by two full-time staff from the Department of Community Services and includes representation from Health and Education. It builds on the work of the Minister's Advisory Committee on Services to Children with a Mental Handicap. By utilizing the individual transitional planning process, it assures that outplacement will be done in a way that is sensitive to the clients and the families needs.
We have been working hard to involve parents more fully in the decision making process and to open the lines of communication. We have established a committee of parents from the Children's Training Centre to deal with issues of concern to them.
Education protocol, and this was mentioned by the member for Pictou Centre. Community Services and Education have established a school placement protocol for children moving out of Children's Training Centres into the community. The Departments of Education and Community Services cost share 50/50 to the cost of special equipment, teachers' aides, et cetera, during a transitional three year period.
Under small options funding. In keeping with government's efforts to integrate adults into the community, the government will fund 100 per cent of the cost of existing small options. That has been in place for children and applies to adults, as I mentioned. Nine new small options have been established since 1992. Funding will be in place in this year's budget to establish several more, in keeping with the CTC outplacement efforts.
In broadening the day care programs options, as part of the Directions strategic planning process underway with the Workshop Council of Nova Scotia, we are funding a pilot project to develop alternate day options for 19 mentally challenged persons. Broadened day options is one of five components being developed through the Directions strategic planning process. The others include, school business development, school-to-work transition planning, centre-based training and community employment.
Under regional service delivery, officials committees in metro and in industrial and rural Cape Breton and Yarmouth have been working to ensure that the needed services are in place in the community to effect the orderly transfer of residents from institutions. With full stakeholder input, these committees are working to establish long-range plans that will determine what services and infrastructure requirements are needed in the communities.
As well, the boards of management and administration of adult residential centres and regional rehabilitation centres, working closely with the department, developed a strategic plan that supports the movement of services away from institutions and into the community.
In metro, the county, the board of management of the Regional Rehabilitation Centre and the Department of Community Services have agreed to a downsizing process and have established an individual planning process to facilitate the transfer of adults from the institution into the community.
In closing, Mr. Speaker, we have made progress. The number of adults living in the community in alternative placements, small options, has increased sharply from approximately 300 in 1990 to over 800 currently. The number of mentally handicapped individuals in institutions is steadily decreasing.
The Digby and Pictou Children's Training Centres have closed. I have spoken personally to parents who said that while they were very much opposed to the plan to close those centres, they now believe and understand that, in fact, it was the best for their child and for their family.
We are moving ahead with plans to close the Dartmouth CTC and the Nova Scotia Youth Training Centre. As I stated at the onset, we still have a long way to go. Some people believe our deinstitutionalization efforts are moving too fast. Others believe we are moving too slow. We are trying to strike a reasonable balance.
We will continue to try and strengthen the involvement of family members and advocates in the decision making process. We will continue to build effective partnerships with all of the stakeholders, the service providers, other government departments, municipal units, et cetera, to ensure we have appropriate community supports in place to support community living. Thank you. (Applause)
MR. SPEAKER: The time allotted for the Adjournment debate has expired. The House will now revert to the Committee of the Whole House on Bills.
[6:30 p.m. The House resolved itself into a CWH on Bills with Deputy Speaker Mr. Gerald O'Malley in the Chair.]
[7:59 p.m. CWH on Bills rose and the House reconvened. Mr. Speaker, Hon. Paul MacEwan, resumed the Chair.]
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The Chairman of the Committee of the Whole House on Bills reports:
THE CLERK: That the committee has met and made some progress and begs leave to sit again.
MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed?
It is agreed.
The honourable Government House Leader.
HON. RICHARD MANN: Mr. Speaker, would you please revert to the order of business, Presenting Reports of Committees.
PRESENTING REPORTS OF COMMITTEES
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Government House Leader.
HON. RICHARD MANN: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Chairman of the Committee on Law Amendments, I am directed to report that the committee has met and considered the following bill:
Bill No. 137 - Summary Proceedings Act.
and the committee recommends this bill to the favourable consideration of the House, without amendment.
MR. SPEAKER: Ordered that this bill be referred to the Committee of the Whole House on Bills.
The honourable Government House Leader.
HON. RICHARD MANN: Mr. Speaker, I would advise members of the House that we will be sitting tomorrow from the hours of 8:00 a.m. until 4:00 p.m. The order of business following the daily routine will be Public Bills for Third Reading and then we will resume Committee of the Whole House on Bills with Bill No. 120.
I move that we adjourn until 8:00 a.m. tomorrow.
MR. SPEAKER: The motion is that the House do now rise to meet again tomorrow morning at the hour of 8:00 o'clock.
The motion is carried.
[The House rose at 8:00 p.m.]
By: Mr. Terence Donahoe (Halifax Citadel)
I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move that an order of this House do issue for a return showing, with respect to the Department of Education:
(1) Details of any offer received by the Minister or the Department of Education regarding the Armoyan Group's wish to build a new junior high school in Hammonds Plains within the Halifax County-Bedford District School Board;
(2) Details of any discussions surrounding such an offer to the province; and
(3) Details of any promises made to the Armoyan Group or any other on such an offer.
By: Mr. Terence Donahoe (Halifax Citadel)
I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move that an order of this House do issue for a return showing, with respect to the Human Rights Commission:
(1) The number of cases on waiting lists for hearing before the Human Rights Commission; and
(2) Reasons for any waiting list detailed.
