HALIFAX, THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2014

 

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY

 

2:17 P.M.

 

CHAIRMAN

Ms. Patricia Arab

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I'd like to call the committee to order, if all of the members could take their seats, please. Welcome, everyone. This is the Subcommittee of the Whole on Supply, today with the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage. Before we get started, I will ask the members present, as well as the minister, to introduce themselves for the purposes of Hansard. If we could start with Mr. Maguire - and just press your buttons so they know where you are.

 

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

 

Resolution E2 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $61,256,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage, pursuant to the Estimate, and the business plan of the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia be approved.

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: We will begin questioning with the Progressive Conservative caucus, and you have one hour of time starting now.

 

MR. LARRY HARRISON: Just looking at the estimates, I noticed two things. One I'll bring up now; the other I'll leave until later. There has been very little change except for the African Culture Affairs. Can you explain why that would be decreased this year as opposed to last year?

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I have to apologize to the committee. We should have started with opening remarks from the minister. That is my mistake. So you hold on to those thoughts because they sound good, but we will start off with the minister and his opening statements - and my apologies.

 

HON. TONY INCE: Thank you, Madam Chairman and to the member, I am ready for that question. I've got an actual good answer for you.

 

I am pleased to be here today to speak about the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage, to highlight the work of this department and speak about the year ahead. I would like to begin by acknowledging the hard work and dedication of the staff who work with the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage. Being a member of the team is an honour and I am always impressed with their commitment to support the Nova Scotians who are most involved in the arts and culture community, and the heritage sector.

 

Before I proceed any further, let me take a moment to introduce the members of my senior team who have joined me today. With me on my right and on my left are Deputy Minister Kelliann Dean, and Manager of Financial Services, Rebecca Doucett. Also behind me - and they say they've got my back - I will also introduce David Ross, Executive Director of Corporate Strategy and Operations, and Dan Davis, Director of Communications.

 

The Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage is estimating its budget for 2014-15 to be $61,256,000. I am excited that we have found the means to continue to support cultural development in Nova Scotia. Our government has recognized the important work undertaken by staff at the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage by continuing to make substantial investments in our sector.

 

I will briefly highlight some of the notable areas of our department's budget. We have provided $227,000 to support public libraries and $200,000 to invest in locally managed provincial museums. Our budget was increased by $1.2 million to support the Discovery Centre. Our department is focusing on core programs and services that support culture and heritage.

 

The Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage invest $37 million in programs that support stakeholders throughout the province. That represents 61 per cent of the department's total budget. This investment clearly demonstrates that the province recognizes the value and importance of positioning culture as the heart and soul of Nova Scotia.

 

From the very beginning of our mandate our government has recognized the importance of local communities in building a strong, viable province. There is more to a community than a name place on a provincial map. How do you define community? Community is about our people, our values, our music, the languages we speak and our hopes and dreams. Our communities are about our rich heritage, our diverse culture. Nova Scotia is built on all of these things and I'm proud that the department has the responsibility to promote diversity and celebrate it.

 

It is a pleasure to speak to the committee today about many of the initiatives and activities of the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage in this coming year. The department supports stronger communities by bringing together programs and resources that support protection of our heritage, grow the importance of our creative economy and benefit communities. Communities depend on innovation and creativity to meet the challenges of a changing world. To be innovative they need to encourage creative and cultural expression, value lifelong learning and share their stories.

 

The staff at the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage recognize the importance of championing innovation. This year, we will focus several activities that work towards meeting this priority. As it was stated in the Speech from the Throne, we will work in partnership with the cultural community to develop this province's first culture strategy. Together with the culture sector, we will identify ways that government, communities and citizens can work together to preserve and enhance culture for the benefit of all Nova Scotians. The strategy will both establish a new vision for culture in Nova Scotia and will guide us on ways to revitalize Nova Scotia's economy by supporting our province's cultural industries.

 

We will engage the sector to ensure their voices play a role in guiding our development of culture strategy for Nova Scotia. Whether the community is a group of artists, historians or a specific equity group, we want to determine how to support their needs. The culture strategy will include and reflect arts and culture, heritage, museums, libraries, archives, languages and diversity. The strategy will address various areas like growth and stability, economic contributions, identifying and addressing issues, increasing collaboration, and much, much more.

 

Like the One Nova Scotia report, I believe that Nova Scotians need to think outside the box and work together to leverage the rich diversity and culture of this province. As government, business and community leaders have an unprecedented opportunity to work together to do better for Nova Scotians with this particular strategy, employees, partners and interested individuals will be consulted in developing our provincial culture strategy, while aligning with the overall government priorities and goals.

 

Madam Chairman, we will also build government's first cultural index together and analyze data that will track awareness of, appreciation of and participation rates in culture by Nova Scotians. The culture index will provide information that will support marketing and policy development. The research will help to establish benchmarks that can be used by the department to track awareness, understanding and appreciation of social and economic value of Nova Scotia's culture and heritage. This will allow us to measure the success of our marketing and outreach efforts. This new tool is expected to be launched later in 2014.

Madam Chairman, the sectors we support help to generate economic activity in all parts of this province. The arts and culture sector is building stronger communities to the tune of $1.2 billion in economic activity and 28,000 direct and indirect jobs. Arts and culture funding are priorities for this government because they support the growth of communities.

 

In 2014-15, about $15 million in funding will be available through a variety of programs that invest in artistic development, fund creative industries, strengthen appreciation for cultural diversity and enhance protection for our built heritage.

 

We have a great variety of funding programs in place that support artists in all disciplines, large and small arts organizations, art in schools and scholarships through Arts Nova Scotia, which is an independent body that oversees government funding directed to artists. Quite a number of individuals and groups receive support.

 

Arts Nova Scotia's diverse knowledge and experience helps shape policies and decisions around investment in the arts. The diverse knowledge and experience of this 11-member board helps shape policies and decisions around funding and work. Some of the programs and awards that it supports are - I'll just name a few here: the Creative Residency Program; Arts Equity Funding Initiative; Prix Grand Pré; Nova Scotia Art Bank; and the Portia White Prize.

 

The Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage also offers peer adjudication funding opportunities in support of artistic works and cultural projects. Some of those programs available are - and I'll just name a few because there is quite a list here: Community Arts Councils/Artist-Run Centres Collaboration Program; Community Arts and Culture Recognition Awards; Established Artist Recognition Awards; Industry Growth Program; a One-time Emerging Culture and Heritage Initiatives Program; and Operating Assistance to Cultural Organizations - just to name a few.

 

Our responsibilities also include developing partnerships, creating jobs and contributing to health, well-being and social prosperity of communities. To support these activities, the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage offers funding opportunities that help communities enhance assets such as cultural facilities, public places and programs. We are fortunate to have programs such as the Community Spirit Award, Community Facilities Improvement Program, Diversity and Community Capacity Fund, and the Mi'kmaq Cultural Activities Program.

 

Throughout this province, there are objects, buildings, places and stories that connect us to the past. Recognizing the importance and preserving and sharing these vital heritage links, the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage provides funding opportunities to support the collection, preservation and interpretation of historic assets. Examples include the Community Museum Assistance Program, a One-time Emerging Culture and Heritage Initiatives Program, and the Strategic Development Initiative.

 

I am also pleased to see the continuation of the Support4Culture collection of programs. Support4Culture supports arts, culture and heritage in communities across Nova Scotia through ticket lottery products raised by the Nova Scotia Provincial Lotteries and Casino Corporation. The programs are managed by the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage, and Arts Nova Scotia. The programs provide a wide spectrum of support. They encourage new experiences, new events and new opportunities. They champion innovation, diversity and collaboration. They are for individuals, they are for communities and they are for Nova Scotians.

 

Many programs are part of the Support for Culture program, including community programs like Diversity and Community Capacity Fund and the Mi'kmaq Cultural Activities Program. The Diversity and Community Capacity Fund program supports diversity, promotion and social equity activities as well as the capacity building efforts of organizations that represent traditionally marginalized groups and communities. The Mi'kmaq Cultural Activities Program will foster Mi'kmaq artistic and community cultural development. This panel reviewed application-based program will support Mi'kmaq community groups and organization to promote and preserve Mi'kmaq culture and heritage.

 

Through support for culture our department also supports culture and heritage sector programs such as the Heritage Development Fund and the one-time Emerging Culture and Heritage Initiatives Program. The Heritage Development Fund will provide conservation work grants and conservation advice grants to owners of properties registered under the Heritage Property Act. It also supports background studies for municipalities considering heritage conservation districts. The One-time Emerging Culture and Heritage Initiatives Program is a program designed for culture and heritage organizations or organizations partnering with specific culture and heritage interests to build capacity, develop innovative projects and support diverse communities.

 

Madam Chairman, the staff at the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage work with our partners in the arts and culture sector and across the Public Service to ensure that creativity and artistic excellence continue to define who we are, as Nova Scotians. In a world where information is shared in the blink of an eye and people have infinite choices for media content, ensuring our stories are heard and our distinct Nova Scotian identity is preserved can be challenging. We can never forget that our music, art, literature, fine crafts and people who bring creativity to life are one of the most important assets for reaching the wider world with a unique Nova Scotian voice. They challenge our perceptions, encourage us to reach further, explore new ideas and make us stronger on every level.

 

Our department's team works hard to ensure that the arts and culture sector receives the support and attention it deserves. Members of the sector are involved in decision making, in the decision-making process surrounding funding programs to ensure that artistic merit and creativity are the benchmarks for awarding funding. Our professional team of people in the department will be working to enhance the relationship with our sectors and stakeholders as they pursue plans for the coming year. I am looking forward to being part of that team.

 

In our province we are very fortunate to have a sector-led group to advise government and provide a voice for the arts and culture sector. That group is the Creative Nova Scotia Leadership Council. The council is an advisor to government and offers guidance to me on matters related to arts and culture, such as the delivery of programs, creation of policies and investment in artists and industries.

 

The Creative Nova Scotia Leadership Council under the leadership of their Chair, Ron Bourgeois, has been hard at work. The council recently released a report earlier this year called Culture: Nova Scotia's Future. It captures several years of work on critical issues in the culture sector and this province's ongoing development. The report is a snapshot of the vast opportunities that could be developed for government and for Nova Scotians. It highlights some of the areas requiring consideration and points to the ways Nova Scotia's culture sector can drive growth and development and be the fourth pillar of a sustainable development. We will be relying on their input as we move forward with the culture strategy.

 

The Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage brings a broad focus to protecting and celebration Nova Scotia's diverse culture and heritage. The work of Acadian Affairs, African Nova Scotia Affairs and Gaelic Affairs ensures that Nova Scotians benefit from the innovation and creativity that is unleashed when we celebrate and value our diverse culture and heritage. Ensuring every Nova Scotian has the opportunity to pursue their dream and contribute to the stronger communities is vital to our future as a province.

 

I am proud to work with people of our department to help make that happen. The Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage is working to ensure that the contributions that these communities have made to our history continue to be recognized and that they help to influence Nova Scotia's future. Nova Scotians value communities that work hard and celebrate our diverse culture and heritage.

 

This year the Vive l'Acadie fund that is generated by sales of Nova Scotia's new French language licence plate will support our Acadian communities with funding for special projects.

 

Study of Gaelic language and culture will be supported by bursary programs through Gaelic Affairs - again - in the coming year. We are advancing access to French language services for Acadian and Francophone Nova Scotians and providing learning opportunities to keep Gaelic language and culture alive and thriving in our province. I would like to thank my colleagues for their continued support: Minister Samson, the Minister of Acadian Affairs; and Minister Delorey, the Minister of Gaelic Affairs.

 

I am very proud to be the minister responsible for African Nova Scotian Affairs. I had the pleasure of meeting Nova Scotians in many communities when I travelled across the province during the African Heritage Month in February. People from communities across the province expressed how important it was to have the Minister of African Nova Scotian Affairs visit their community. It was wonderful to be invited to the events in Annapolis, Cape Breton, Amherst and New Glasgow just to name a few.

 

This year's theme, Rising Stars: Celebrating our Youth, focused on the contributions and achievements of young people of African descent. At the launch in January, we stood together with Premier McNeil and honoured six impressive young people who are making a difference in their schools, businesses and communities. I have been working with young people for many years and I know that hard work and determination are essential for success. This year's rising stars, and young people across the province, are showing us what it takes to be leaders in communities. They were excellent ambassadors of African Nova Scotian culture.

 

The African Heritage Month information network staff at African Nova Scotian Affairs and countless partners worked hard to make this African Heritage Month a success. The work they've done makes it obvious that people of African descent are eager to share their stories with the wider communities across the province. It makes me proud to see so much interest in learning about African Nova Scotian culture and heritage from people in every region. It has been a tremendous honour to participate in so many activities during the 30-year milestone of African Heritage Month in Nova Scotia. With more than 150 events in communities across the province, this African Heritage Month was bigger than ever before. This celebration shows that Nova Scotia has a strong connection to its people of African descent.

 

Also, I would like to indicate that our government is supporting the development of an important facility - the Black Loyalists Heritage Centre in Birchtown. The construction of the centre is moving forward and Nova Scotians will have a place to permanently tell the story of the Black Loyalists. It will join the provincial museum family and add to our appreciation and understanding of the important part of our shared history. It is important that we make key investments in preserving the diverse elements of our culture and heritage to help tell the story of Nova Scotia's unique identity.

 

Madam Chairman, Nova Scotia's heritage resources make a valuable contribution to communities, as well as lifelong learning. That heritage remains accessible to visitors and residents alike through the Nova Scotia Museum system and the Nova Scotia Archives and the efforts of local heritage groups and communities and museums.

 

I can't say enough about the important role of the Nova Scotia Museum in preserving and sharing the story of our province. There are 27 Nova Scotia Museum sites across the province telling the story of our rich culture and heritage. The Nova Scotia Museum operates very much like a family, the work collaboratively and often share information and exhibits so that Nova Scotians from every region can take pride in where we come from as a people.

 

There can be no doubt that the museums are popular especially among young people; for instance, March Break at the Museum of Natural History in Halifax was a massive success this year. They had their best visitation numbers in more than 10 years, with more than 20,000 people during the week. Admission revenue and gift shop sales over March Break were up 150 per cent, not to mention excellent reports of guests' satisfaction.

 

It would be very difficult to find a Nova Scotian whose culture and heritage is not shaped by the sea. The Maritime Museum of the Atlantic is gearing up for what will undoubtedly be a very busy summer. People from all over the world pour into the museum on the Halifax waterfront every day to see the permanent exhibits about the Titanic, the Halifax Explosion, the CSS Acadia and many more topics from our very rich seafaring past. The Nova Scotia Museum of Industry in Stellarton reports having a 25 per cent increase in overall visitation over the past year. That is very impressive and speaks to the museum's involvement within the community; museums create opportunities for people within their communities. Additionally, there is a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes to support researchers, scientists and historians. The Museum of Industry in Stellarton is a wonderful example of how our provincial museums are centres for learning and community growth.

 

Madam Chairman, in our museum family we have 11 directly-managed museums by the department and 16 that are managed by local societies. As I mentioned earlier, I am very pleased that the province is reallocating $200,000 to invest in Nova Scotia's 16 locally-managed provincial museums. The locally-managed museums, such as the Fisheries Museum of the Atlantic in Lunenburg, Ross Farm Museum in New Ross, Fundy Geological Museum in Parrsboro and the Firefighters Museum in Yarmouth are run by societies that manage excellent and knowledgeable staff. It is important for the province to help them to be successful to ensure they can continue to tell the story of our province for the years to come.

 

Madam Chairman, museums are also centres of expertise in exciting fields such as marine history, fisheries, zoology, botany, archeology and ethnology, again just to name a few. Researchers from communities across the province and abroad interact with the Nova Scotia Museum to study the many aspects of our province. The province's curators work hard to foster relationships with leading experts to enhance the province's body of knowledge about our culture. The teams at our museums often partner with students and staff at institutions and universities as they take an in-depth look at their fields of research. That is one of the ways that the province helps encourage creative thinking, which of course leads to innovative ideas. The knowledge of who we are and how far we've come has the power to inspire people of all ages to achieve great things in their lives.

 

Before I became the Minister of Communities, Culture and Heritage, while I was working with young people during my time with the Department of Community Services, I had the chance to see the impact that the museum visit could have. I witnessed the excitement and enthusiasm of young children as they explored museum exhibits. It was special for them because the experience provided a place for them to learn something new.

 

I know that young people appreciate the chance to learn by exploring, and I can think of no better place than the Nova Scotia Museum site to learn about the province and the world. It is those experiences that help them come up with their own creative ideas, and for a young mind, that's where innovation begins. That is why I am very pleased that the province is supporting the Discovery Centre as they make the move to the new location on the Halifax waterfront.

 

The Discovery Centre provides Nova Scotians with a chance to marvel at the wonders of science, technology, engineering, arts and mathematics, and how these subjects relate to the world we live in. The Discovery Centre is a hub for creativity and thinking in young people. Creativity leads to innovation; innovation leads to new industries; and new industries and jobs are the foundation of a growing economy.

 

While I'm on the topic of innovation and ideas, this is a good time to talk about the excellent work of the Nova Scotia Archives. Our provincial archives team is ahead of the game when it comes to sharing our documentary heritage. The evidence can be found on the Web where the Nova Scotia Archives have been extremely active in sharing the recorded history of our province's diverse culture and rich heritage. More and more, Nova Scotians are discovering new things at the Nova Scotia Archives.

 

I learned very quickly when I arrived at the department that the Nova Scotia Archives staff makes so much available online. For instance, more than one million birth, marriage and death certificates are available for Nova Scotians and researchers from anywhere in the world to look at. The Nova Scotia Archives website contains hundreds of thousands of images, records, videos and sound recordings linking the world to the province's past. Last year, the website had more than 413,000 visits and 3.5 million page views.

 

The team at the Nova Scotia Archives works hard to identify and make available interesting photographs and documents from our past. The Nova Scotia Archives plays an important role - not just in preserving our culture and heritage, but also in fostering how proud we are to be Nova Scotians.

 

Our government understands how important public libraries are to the health and vitality of communities across the province. We are providing stable operating funding this year to the regional library boards. That contribution includes the support provided to regional libraries across the province through the Nova Scotia provincial library. As I mentioned earlier, we have been able to reallocate $227,000 to support public libraries.

 

With the leadership of staff and the incorporation with the regional library boards in every part of Nova Scotia, we're ensuring the public libraries continue to support culture that values lifelong learning. To do that, the provincial library works with its partners to explore ways to be more efficient in managing library collections so that resources can be focused at the local level on programming. Staff of the provincial library and this government will continue to work with regional library boards across Nova Scotia to face the challenge of maintaining this vital service for our communities.

 

Madam Chairman, I would now like to speak about our sailing ambassador, Bluenose II. She is a treasured value for Nova Scotians and is a nationally and internationally recognized icon. She is part of Nova Scotia's identity and rich marine heritage. The vessel represents the ingenuity and craftsmanship of the province's shipbuilding industry. Bluenose II supports economic activities and tourism events in communities throughout the province and around the world.

 

Madam Chairman, the Bluenose II restoration project is almost complete. The restoration has provided an opportunity to ensure that Bluenose II meets today's higher international standards for safety. The restoration is being done in Lunenburg where Bluenose and Bluenose II were originally built and launched. With the restoration of Bluenose II, we are again staying true to our shipbuilding heritage. The restoration of the vessel is being done by the Lunenburg Shipyard Alliance, made up of Covey Island Boat Works, Snyder's Shipyard and the Lunenburg Industrial Foundry and Engineering. Also, the Dartmouth-based Lengkeek Vessel Engineering is responsible for the design work and ensuring the vessel meets the regulatory and classification standards. MHPM's Halifax office is providing project management and expertise.

 

Working with a well-established and recognized Nova Scotian company means the benefits of this major infrastructure investments are staying in Nova Scotia. Bluenose II must, at a minimum, meet the regulatory requirements of Transport Canada. The province also decided to reach a higher level of safety by restoring the vessel to internationally-recognized classification standards. The province is working with the American Bureau of Shipping, which has a dual role in this process. The American Bureau of Shipping assures compliance with Transport Canada's regulatory requirements and oversees compliance with internationally-recognized classification standards. Bringing the vessel into class ensures Bluenose II meets today's higher international standards for safety.

 

Madam Chairman, this has been a unique and complex project. The original statement for the project was $14.4 million. The cost of the project to date is about $16.7 million. As you may know, I have asked the Auditor General to conduct a thorough and independent review of this project upon completion. I have requested that the review examine both cost and delays.

 

Bluenose II is currently 95 per cent complete and is in the final inspection process which includes docks and sea trials. The purpose of the trials is to test the vessel's systems, functionality and seaworthiness. The world has been watching the restoration of the iconic Bluenose II with great interest. Thousands of people from around the world tune in to watch the live web cam. Some even sent regular coffee supplies to the crews. The vessel's return to sailing will bring recognition to Nova Scotia, to the Town of Lunenburg, the Lunenburg Shipyard Alliance and all those involved in the design and restoration process.

 

Madam Chairman, this project has created good jobs and beyond that, it also secures the future of our famous sailing ambassador and the benefits it brings to Lunenburg and the province. We look forward to her returning to the sea this Spring/early summer. I know you're going to question me on that, Karla, but I said "Spring".

 

Madam Chairman, all across the government we are making strategic choices about how we support our important sectors to ensure their long-term viability. I want to thank the members of the culture and heritage sectors, as well as our regional libraries, for contributing to the vitality and well-being of our communities across the province and, as I said earlier, the team of wonderful people at the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage are working hard to support the mandate of the department. Being part of that team has been and will always be an honour for me. I am sure you would be equally impressed with the commitment to supporting the arts and culture community, our public libraries, the heritage sector and our distinct cultural communities.

 

With that, Madam Chairman, I would now be pleased to take questions on the department's estimates.

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, minister. The Progressive Conservative caucus now has an hour, starting from this time, to ask a round of questions.

 

The honourable member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley.

 

MR. LARRY HARRISON: Thank you, Madam Chairman. My esteemed colleague wasn't introduced when we went around the table. Would you like to introduce yourself?

 

MS. KARLA MACFARLANE: My name is Karla MacFarlane and I'm the MLA for Pictou West.

 

MR. HARRISON: You may have to forgive me. When I was a minister, I always said "Please call me Larry" and I have an awful feeling that I want to call you Tony. Well I'm going to try "minister", how's that?

 

MR. INCE: In advance, you are excused.

 

MR. HARRISON: Thank you. Just a few moments on the estimates, minister. I see where the mandate to cut spending straight across the board by 1 per cent is not applying to this particular department. Is there something that you are planning extra to keep the cost as it is, or just the increase in what it is to maintain your department?

 

MR. INCE: Thank you for that question. Actually we did meet the 1 per cent cut in our department. It was a number of adjustments made to achieve that 1 per cent cut in our operational spending. However, that was offset by the departmental wage adjustments of about $700,000.

 

MR. HARRISON: The other thing I noticed just in the estimates themselves, the African Nova Scotian Affairs cut by, I guess, 20 per cent. Has that been moved somewhere else or is it just going to be cut back a bit?

 

MR. INCE: Well what happened there - in that department, there was a program that was originally funded by the federal government. That money ceased from the federal government so that's why there was a reduction in that particular department.

 

MR. HARRISON: Just a last couple of questions on that. No, I'm good for that. I'm going to take quite a bit of time on something that's kind of dear to me. I really appreciate all the stuff you mentioned in your opening remarks because obviously a lot of things are going to be done to make sure that cultural heritage is going to be recognized within this province. There are a few areas where I do want to make some questions.

 

I'm going to ask - Karla, do you want to go ahead with Bluenose II now, and I'll save my remarks for later?

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Pictou West.

 

MS. KARLA MACFARLANE: Thank you very much for your outline. It covered a lot and I thank you for that.

 

One of my first questions actually is not, surprisingly, to do with Bluenose II. I'm curious to know, after many years of the Pictou Rotary Club receiving $3,000 to $4,000 annually for their Rotary musical play that they put on every year, which is a big fundraiser - it's a three-night event held at the deCoste Centre in Pictou. For the first time in many years, they were denied funding. I know that they sent in their letter application. Basically, I'm asking as to why this year they were denied that small amount of funding that goes so far to create such a wonderful cultural event in the Town of Pictou. Can you explain why they didn't receive funding this year?

 

MR. INCE: That particular program, I will have to look into and find out what happened, but it may be as a result of a panel that would look over some of the programs. As I said earlier, I'll have to look into it. I'm not sure if their application, if it was a qualification issue - it's a panel-reviewed program. A panel of juries helped determine and make the decisions on funding around those types of programs, but we will look into it and find out the information for you if that helps.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Okay, I'd appreciate that because, once again, they received it for a number of years and we'll follow up on it later on.

Moving on though, if it's okay with Larry here, I'm going to stick to my area of Pictou County. I know that you're anticipating coming in the Fall for some heritage days. I just want to know if you can elaborate a little bit on that and just give some details of how many days you plan to be there; which towns you plan to present in or if there is any agenda formulated yet.

 

MR. INCE: As you can appreciate, being so new into this whole portfolio and everything else, we are currently looking at my schedule and my appointments and things around the province. I can't directly tell you right now the amount of days and time, but I would offer and ask you if you have suggestions, I'd look forward to those suggestions and take those into account for when I'm down there.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Yes, absolutely. I guess I was curious because this was an announcement that was made about a month ago that this would be happening in our area. Once again, I'm sort of following up from a group of organizers that want to be prepared and ensure that they showcase the county as well as we all can or have the potential to. I just wanted to know if there were any concrete details in that event, as well as perhaps maybe providing a little bit of what the costs would be for those days. Is it in the budget and where would I find that?

 

MR. INCE: Well again, I would have to suggest that I'll have to get back to you because we are still working out all those details and looking at scheduling.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Great, thank you for that. Do you want me to continue, Larry? Okay, I'll move along. So those were my questions for Pictou and Pictou County.

 

I know that in your speech you mentioned there was going to be a cultural strategy and a cultural index which I think is really great, I look forward to that. I know you mentioned you would be able to track awareness and establish benchmarks. I'm just wondering what is the formula that you do to get those answers?

 

MR. INCE: We are currently working with Statistics Canada to try to look at how we would chart and map that, as well as internally we are looking at avenues and measures to look at how we would measure people's appreciation of culture or their involvement and what they would see in participating and attending cultural events and things of that nature.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Okay, thank you for that. I know you mentioned there are approximately - and I just want to be correct that I heard this figure correctly - that there is a $1.2 billion economic spin-off growth from cultural jobs or the industry. I know you mentioned there are 28,000 direct and indirect jobs.

 

I have two questions to that. So there's 28,000 direct and indirect jobs, and I'm assuming that some of these obviously are seasonal jobs. I'm just wondering, out of that figure - knowing that 52 per cent of Nova Scotians make less than $30,000 - I'm just wondering what the average salary would be.

MR. INCE: We don't have that information currently.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Okay. I know that you had mentioned as well that you are advancing with Gaelic. I took Gaelic for a while, and it's a very difficult language to learn. In Pictou County we've even changed some signs into Gaelic. In fact it's interesting to know that Nova Scotia I think has more Gaelic-speaking individuals than Scotland actually has. It is something that I am dear to because I want to see it advance as well. I'm just wondering, is there any grant money out there to put on classes and approximately how much, or where would we actually apply to receive funding for Gaelic classes?

 

MR. INCE: First of all, I'll tell you that there is a program which will allow people to apply for funding through a grant; it's available on our website. There are a number of Gaelic programs and funding for recipients. If you'd like, I can just name a couple.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Well it's good to know that they are there, I'll look them up. I'm just wondering maybe if you could tell me what the maximum financial contribution is that we can apply for.

 

MR. INCE: Well it's a range, anywhere from $870 to $7,000.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: $800 to $7,000?

 

MR. INCE: Well there's several ranges, it could be from $870, approximately, to about $7,000.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Okay, maybe the $70 is like an individual, if they take classes or something? I'm not sure what you mean.

 

MR. INCE: Well the $870, just to give you an idea, was to assist with . . .

 

MS. MACFARLANE: $870 - thank you. I'm sorry, I thought you were saying $800 to $70. Okay, that's great.

 

MR. INCE: No, $870.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Okay, thank you for that. As well, you mentioned the number - I think you said there were 27 museums in Nova Scotia, right? The Black Loyalists will be the next ones joining that, making it 28? Okay, great, and I'm really pleased about that. I'm very, very happy to hear about that one.

 

You also followed right into that with indicating that about $200,000-and some has been set aside to go into local museums. I think you said there was Ross Farm, Firefighters - I know you mentioned four and I'm sorry, I can't verbatim repeat them back but I know there were four.

 

I'm just wondering, have you decided on what each of them are getting out of that $200,000? If so, I'd like to have those figures, as well as if there's any left over, or are they using up that whole $200,000?

 

MR. INCE: Actually there is a list of all the 16 museums and a list of what we are going to be funding them as well.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: So there are 16 that are tapping into . . .

 

MR. INCE: Sixteen locally-managed, provincial museums. Then there are 11 that are directly funded by us.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Right. I guess I'm just wondering who is tapping into this new $200,000 investment that you mentioned.

 

MR. INCE: I'll let you know who is tapping into that - the Barrington Woolen Mill Museum and the Old Meeting House Museum - there are two of them. There is the Cossit House Museum. Do you want the figure as well?

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Probably the best thing - I'll let you follow up later on and give me those lists. Basically what I want to know is if they are using up the whole $200,000, there is nothing left over for anyone to apply to that.

 

MR. INCE: It is part of their regular grant and yes, they will be using up the whole $200,000. Would you like me to continue listing?

 

MS. MACFARLANE: No, that's fine, but I will get that information from you. When you said that it's a new investment of $200,000, is it a new investment of $200,000 or is it a regular - is that money always there for these museums to tap into?

 

MR. INCE: This $200,000 that you're speaking about is what we're adding to their grant and adding it to their existing.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Perfect - alright then. Thank you for clarifying that. I am going to move on to Bluenose II, if that's okay. You can say no. (Laughter) I thank you for answering my questions earlier in Question Period. It is definitely not one of my favorite parts of being in the Chamber.

 

So we know it's almost complete, which is good news to hear. Do we know what is left to complete? People are asking me, "Okay Karla, you've been saying for a couple of months that you've been told that it's almost complete, but you can't tell us what exactly is left to complete." Is it the sea trials? If you could maybe just elaborate a little bit on what is left complete.

 

MR. INCE: As I've stated earlier, the vessel is currently going through dock and sea trials. As I said also earlier, those sea trails will test the seaworthiness, functionality and systems of the ship. I guess the best thing for me to say is, when you're building something you have to make sure that things are operational. This is what this process is to do.

 

When people are asking - and I appreciate that they're asking because it shows the interest in what everybody wants out of this particular vessel as its ambassador - I would like to say that I too am really anxious to see it going, but we have to allow for these things to be tested and done. As I've said many times, we are ensuring that we have a vessel that will last for at least 50 years, that we have a vessel that meets the highest international safety standards for people. That takes time because we've got a project that's very unique; it's a marriage of old and new technology. Until you can get there and see what they've done, it's sort of abstract - people can't really grasp it and understand. It all came together when I was there and I saw.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Well I have a kayak, so I know what it's like to maintain a boat. (Laughter) So basically the 5 per cent that's left is just sea trials and those last minute items that we all check before we head out before our maiden voyage, more or less.

 

MR. INCE: Yes, more or less. As I said, you're testing the functionality of the vessel.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: The functionality, okay. One question that we didn't get answered in Question Period was, who is the insurer of Bluenose II?

 

MR. INCE: Well the insurer of the vessel is the Lunenburg Shipyard Alliance until they hand it over to the province.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: So when that transaction happens - and excuse my ignorance on this - do we insure it through your department?

 

MR. INCE: It's through TIR.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: So it's not within this budget that we're looking at. Do you know what the cost is to insure it?

 

MR. INCE: Previously, it cost $60,000 per year to insure the vessel. Given times and changes, that's probably a little bit more now.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: So it's through TIR, and do we know if the insurer is actually a Canadian insurer or is the company American?

 

MR. INCE: I do believe it is a Canadian insurer.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: We're sure?

MR. INCE: I can confirm that with you, yes.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Spring/early summer, is there an agenda set out at all? I know it takes time to plan and everything, but hypothetically, I'm sure you're thinking, okay, if it was ready to set sail, is there a plan of where it's going? Are we allowing this beautiful vessel to stay in Nova Scotia for the summer or are there plans to take it elsewhere?

 

MR. INCE: The Lunenburg Museum Society, the people who will manage the vessel, are the ones who are tentatively putting together a schedule. Of course, none of that can be confirmed until the dock and sea trials are completed.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Would that group also be the ones who do the hiring to be an employee on the vessel?

 

MR. INCE: Yes.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Is there a captain?

 

MR. INCE: There is.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: And his name, or her name?

 

MR. INCE: Wayne Walters is the manager of the vessel and Phil Watson will be the captain.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Thank you. I know that you have absolutely done the right thing and turned it over to the Auditor General to review why these delays and increase in costs. Why do you think there was such an increase in the cost? It jumped from $14 million basically to almost $17 million. I'm just wondering, was it the cost of labour? I'm pretty sure the cost of materials was a big factor but I don't know. When people ask me I have to say I don't know.

 

MR. INCE: I would urge that you would reply to anybody, as I have, that we will know all that information once the Auditor General has completed his studies. It would be wrong for me to speculate on some of the reasons without really knowing. I will add that the Auditor General has begun by talking to staff and trying to gather documents right now.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Thank you. I'm going to finish up with one last question with regards to the bulkheads. That was a big concern of mine. I grew up around boats and helped with the Ship Hector in Pictou. When the bulkheads fail, that deeply concerns me when you end up with four feet of water. I'm just wondering what action did they take? Is there a sump pump? Did they find maybe where it was leading? I don't know, I'm just wondering where perhaps, why that happened and are they feeling secure and positive that it's not going to happen again?

MR. INCE: Well you know it's interesting because a lot of people talk about that and there's a lot of misinformation around it. What it was, an employee accidentally opened a valve and that valve caused the flood. Once they realized what that was they turned it off and that was the end of it. So when we talk about flooding and everything else, it's better to have all the facts.

 

I believe that all this information is on our website, all the Q and As and all the answers. I'm not sure, I don't know if that one is but I'll share it with you now that that's what it was, an employee accidentally opened a valve which let the water come in, which by the time somebody saw it, there was about four feet of water. They shut it off, they pumped it out and that was the end of it, basically.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Thank you for that clarification because none of us know that. No one knew, all that people heard was that there was four feet of water and that it wasn't an honest mistake, right? They honestly felt that the bulkheads had failed, so thank you for that clarification.

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harrison, I'll just let you know that you have 34 minutes.

 

MR. HARRISON: Just a couple more questions on that, minister. Is it going to be in the Doers and Dreamers Guide for 2014?

 

MR. INCE: Say that again.

 

MR. HARRISON: The Doers and Dreamers Guide for the province - is the schedule and all that going to be in that for 2014?

 

MR. INCE: Unfortunately we're a little too late for this year's publication of the Doers and Dreamers Guide. However, all information will be on the department's website, showing once the schedule has been confirmed, where it will be going and its availability and so on.

 

MR. HARRISON: Is there a plan for its intended use, as in sitting there and having people just come onboard and look around, or is it going to be mainly for traveling around the province?

 

MR. INCE: I would suggest to you that it will continue to be Nova Scotia's sailing ambassador. It will continue to sail around the province, it will continue to visit the ports around the province and in the near future probably outside the province as well.

 

MR. HARRISON: It's a nice ambassador, no getting around that. By the way, did they ever think that it might be self-sufficient after a bit - I mean being able to pay for it in the run of a year? I know it's being subsidized now and donations are coming in and so on.

 

MR. INCE: Well we will continue to provide the grant because there is an annual grant that we provide but with the scheduling and everything else that will develop in the near future, we're hoping that we can provide some additional sustainable funds and so on.

 

MR. HARRISON: Good. Now I'm a guy from a city, that was my culture. Then when I started working, I spent 38 of my 41 years in rural areas so I'm now starting to understand the culture of the rural areas. As I do my electoral work out there, so many people are afraid that they're going to lose the rural culture, as it's moving now. I mean everything seems to be moving into the centre and they are just so afraid they're going to lose it.

 

The rural setting - the farming and so on - has been the heart of this province for generation upon generation. A lot of the smaller farms are just being chewed up and larger farms are taking their place, especially when it comes to the dairy cattle and so on; so a lot of people are losing their livelihood that way. Families really want to stay where they have been brought up, where they are comfortable, they have the land, obviously. They like that safe, quiet, easy pace and they really don't want to give up that culture that they have come to be comfortable with.

 

Is there an approach by the department to maintain that culture in the rural area, because it is a culture?

 

MR. INCE: Yes, I would say to you that the lion's share, or 61 per cent of our budget goes to rural areas in terms of culture, which would approximately around $37 million that would be the lion's share, to library grants, locally-managed museums, art galleries, some anchor organizations. We're looking at community museums, program grants to individuals, heritage grants - those are some of the things. The majority of our funding goes to those areas already.

 

Then, if I might add, the importance of us trying to show the importance of culture which will hopefully keep those people in their communities and encourage them to become more involved themselves and promote their own culture.

 

MR. HARRISON: I know that they're really trying. As I go out in my constituency, it's mostly rural, obviously. The communities are having such a hard time surviving and it used to be the case where the people would gather in a community and put stuff together that they needed. It's getting to a point now where that's just not happening like it used to happen years ago. Some of the museums and heritage properties are now starting to decline because the money is not there now to keep them up.

 

I'm assuming this is right across the province. I'm taking my information now from the Musquodoboit Valley and the Stewiacke Valley but I am assuming that this is a problem right across the province. When we look at some of the grants that are being given, how is that money distributed? Is it distributed so much for a particular area, classification, whatever?

MR. INCE: Well most of that funding is distributed through grants and programs, and it's application-based in some cases. Some of them are assessment panels and internal panels, so there's no one way to ensure that that funding gets out to a community. There are many different ways that we will offer opportunities for community members or organizations to apply for these grants.

 

MR. HARRISON: One particular way that they are trying to survive is in heating. Heating seems to be a killer for them because they are old buildings and they are oil run and they are thinking that they would like to transfer into a different kind of heating system. Are there particular funds for doing that?

 

MR. INCE: We do have a program or a funding program for that. It is called the Community Facilities Improvement Program which will address those very things you've discussed. That said, our department is putting together a package for all MLAs so you will have a list of the programs and the processes and how to go through it.

 

MR. HARRISON: That is going to very helpful, because really I do have a lot of museums and community halls that are deteriorating but they're absolutely needed within the community because that's the only community place they have and they are in bad repair. So I will be able to give them the information on the applications and they can apply very easily because sometimes I just get caught not knowing where to go when I'm being asked these questions.

 

MR. INCE: Now just to give you a sense, instead of waiting for this package, if you want people to access it right away, all those programs are available on our website currently right now as well.

 

MR. HARRISON: I am computer-illiterate so that's helpful to know and I can tell someone else to do that.

 

MR. INCE: I know the person I can send for you to get it to you.

 

MR. HARRISON: Very good. The other thing with respect to this - there are a lot of facilities that are now starting to close in rural areas and that's what I mean about they think they are losing their identity because all communities used to have churches, community halls, grocery stores and a garage. They seemed to be the four central things to keep the community going.

 

Just recently in Upper Musquodoboit, they lost the Irving garage, and they have nothing to replace that. So they have to travel quite a distance actually now to get gas. You just don't run down to the corner anymore to get it. In Middle Musquodoboit, they're talking about the Co-op maybe closing before too awful long. Halls and churches - oh my goodness, they're really in trouble. The government does help with respect to the lower part of it. They will have nothing to do with the sanctuaries, but they will give money for the hall part, for people to gather.

With everything is getting in such rough shape, do you think there will be enough monies available to at least get a good start on keeping some of these facilities in tact? The communities have worked very hard to try to keep it together, but with the cost of heating and all these extra things that are being a part of it, they're just having a hard job being able to move ahead.

 

MR. INCE: I would respond by saying that I understand, yes, and we have only so much funding and it applies. That's where I believe that the communities, government and businesses all need to participate to try to help keep some of those organizations or facilities open and sustainable if they can.

 

MR. HARRISON: I agree with you 100 per cent. I do understand the limited resources that are out there. I'm not trying to put you on the spot. We're just having a conversation here. I'm trying to find ways to help those communities maintain their culture. Like I say, they are so fearful of losing it just because all these things keep getting taken away from them.

 

From my generation back, there were a lot of volunteers who did so much in community, you couldn't stop them. I mean, no matter what it was, people were there to respond and keep things together. Now, it's not so much the case. New generations are coming up and they don't have that same mentality. Some do - I mean, some of the young people do, but the majority don't have that same mentality. Because of that, that's where the fear is coming from - that they may not be able to because this rural culture is so much a part of our province. If we lose that, we're going to lose a large part of the culture that's here that's nice for people.

 

I don't know what the solution is going to be for that. I try to instill in my own kids that I'm getting old and I can't do what I used to do, and I'm hoping that they're going to pick up. Of course you know Stacy and she is really doing her part in trying to do this, but it is a mentality that we really have to change for sure.

 

I just want to spend a little bit of time here on the infrastructure. When I speak of infrastructure, you know what I mean - roads and bridges. I understand that the main roads have to be done first. There is a system as to how the roads are plowed, how they're maintained, and you need to go through that level, system, but everything is in such bad shape now. I'm wondering if the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal is a part of your department because part of the culture needs to be maintained by the infrastructure and if it is not there, it really suffers. Do you have any input with the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal?

 

MR. INCE: Unfortunately I don't.

 

MR. HARRISON: What can we do? As I say, I just feel so bad for them because it's a mindset and a hard-set that is getting cynical and it's hard to maintain. I'm just wondering if we can put things in place to kind of take the pressure off, if you know what I mean.

 

I know in Middle Stewiacke, for instance, the school closed and the community actually got the school. There are a group of citizens who sat down and made a plan. Now that facility is really the heart of that community. It is used a lot for birthdays and anniversaries and card parties and get-togethers, that is the heart of it. I know they put a grant in for the heating because the oil is costing a fortune and they want to switch over into a different heating system - heat pumps, I think. My thinking is that we're probably going to take more of a focus, I guess, in putting monies into those kinds of things in communities just to give them a boost to keep them together, I guess, just to keep communities together. If we don't, I think we're just going to lose a lot.

 

MR. INCE: What I can say to you is that although I don't have any input into TIR, if you do have a specific concern, I can at least mention it and bring it to my colleague, the minister, and let him know of your concerns.

 

MR. HARRISON: Now I don't know, and again, minister it's not in your department necessarily but in the smaller communities, for Brookfield, where I actually live - Brookfield is known across the country as the sports town. You didn't know that? Oh, no, the Brookfield Elks are national champions but they are so sport-minded that there isn't anything they haven't offered to that community; they have a rink, they have a ball field, they have a soccer field, they really have it all there.

 

Now, because of the new rink in Truro, the possibility of a new curling rink in Elmsdale, they are afraid they're not going to survive. That's what I mean about everything kind of going to the major centres and the smaller communities are going to be left out. It's a beautiful rink, it has a curling rink, it has a hockey rink, it has a seniors' room, all in that one little facility. It is struggling right now to survive because some of the teams are going to the bigger centres.

 

Again, in a sense I know it's not your problem but I'm just wondering if the other departments can get together to just look at some of these situations that other communities, small communities are under that umbrella and if we can just kind of help them get through this most difficult time. That culture, like I said, is so important and it would be devastating to lose it, I think. I know it means working with other departments to make this happen. I'm just wondering if the rural focus is a high focus with the department or is it mainly around the more populated areas?

 

MR. INCE: Well to go back and first address your concerns around the infrastructure and all the buildings and everything else - as I said, I don't have any real control or input on that, but I would say at arm's length we do because we discuss with TIR in terms of support for our libraries, museums and so on, the infrastructure around those particular facilities is quite important to us.

 

We've also got people in your community; for example, you talked about the Brookfield teams and sports. There is funding also under the Support for Culture programming which provides money for support for sport. It's under Health and Wellness. Most of that money comes from the gaming so you have to understand that there is money there for organizations and institutions that are sport-related, if they are concerned culturally that way, they can apply for the funding and the monies through that particular program.

 

MR. HARRISON: I really think that the volunteers are there to implement the programs, if the government could help with putting the programs in place in these areas.

 

MR. INCE: Again I think it's probably - like yourself and most of us who are relatively new, we're not aware so I can understand some of the questions because you are trying to find out, you are new in your role. As I said, once we provide a list of the programs and how to apply for those programs, I think that might help you to be able to answer the questions of your constituents and maybe alleviate some of those pressures when they are trying to figure out where to do.

 

MR. HARRISON: Again, I realize we're in conversation, I realize we're all brand new and we're just trying to get our feet wet and how we can best do this. Yes, I would certainly appreciate any kind of help.

 

Oh, there's one last thing, and don't take this as a dead issue - cemeteries - pardon the pun. When I go into a community one of the first things I look at are cemeteries. I look at cemeteries and if they're well kept, I know the communities are healthy and want to keep their heritage. If they're not well kept, then I know that the spirit of that community is kind of dying off. I could be right or I could be wrong but that's how I do it.

 

I know that within my area itself I think there are seven cemeteries and it's a very small area. Right now the only way they are maintained is by volunteers.

 

MR. INCE: Most of the cemeteries are protected by the Cemeteries Act. We are responsible for that particular Act, however, in most cases we do not fund or provide money for cemeteries. However, if there is something specific around a cemetery, they can apply through the Community Jobs and Facilities Improvement Fund to try to get some money to do, I guess, whatever specifically they might want to be working on for a cemetery.

 

MR. HARRISON: Okay, would this mean maybe getting a student to do that task in the summertime, to maintain, to do any physical kind of work?

 

MR. INCE: What would have to be done is a student would have to - maybe if they've got a special project, they can put in a proposal and then we would have to look at it. There could be employment programs that are not funded from our department that can help sustain those.

MR. HARRISON: Well if I wasn't doing this job, I probably would be doing that job. Just because I think it's so important in a community to have both properties well-kept and looking good.

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: If we have a few minutes, Ms. MacFarlane. You have five minutes.

 

MR. KARLA MACFARLANE: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. I just wanted to follow-up that because in my area I have a few pioneer cemeteries. Because they are so old, there's hardly any family connections to some of them, so they are really falling apart and no one is looking after them. I'm just wondering if your department allows funding more so for a pioneer cemetery, compared to one that is (Interruption) did you say "regular folks?"

 

MR. INCE: No, there is no funding protecting them. We just have legislation to protect it and that's what we are sort of in control of the legislation around it.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Okay, so we have one particular cemetery that actually is on the water and it's because of the erosion, some of the actual grave marks are starting to really come close to the water's edge. Some of them actually date back to 1700 and whatever, so it's a very, old, old one. It's actually located on Caribou Island in Pictou County.

 

What would your advice be if there's a group of people who want to take up trying to clean it up? I think it could be a major job, they may even have to move. We don't really know where to go with that. Would that be through your department for advice?

 

MR. INCE: I would suggest that they could come to my department and talk to people and see if we can provide them with direction or advice.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Okay, alright. Thank you.

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: There's three minutes left of your time. Mr. Harrison.

 

MR. HARRISON: First of all I'd like to thank you for trying to answer the questions and being free to look for the information later, if need be. We are brand new and I'm looking forward to working with you folks to just make it better. We'll get the information eventually as we move along and know in what direction we want to go.

 

I want to thank you and your staff for what you've given.

 

MR. INCE: Well thank you. My staff is available to you at any time.

 

MR. HARRISON: You haven't seen the last of us, though.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: We'll be back in another hour.

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Let's take a very brief break and we'll meet back here at 6:02 p.m. so we can stay on track.

 

[6:00 p.m. The committee recessed.]

 

[6:03 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I'd like to call the committee back to order. We will allow the NDP caucus one hour of questioning time, beginning with Ms. Zann.

 

MS. LENORE ZANN: Hi there, it's nice to see you, minister. I'm sorry I missed whatever my colleague to the left of me was talking about, but I had to grab something to eat. I've got a ton of questions, but where will I start? First of all, I really enjoyed your opening remarks, and I know I asked this at Question Period the other day, but were you at all concerned that there was no mention of your department's activities or the importance of the arts and culture to the government in the recent Budget Address.

 

MR. INCE: No, not really because the government and my colleagues already address in the Throne Speech the fact that culture is going to be something that they're going to look to and move towards promoting more.

 

MS. ZANN: So you felt comfortable that that was going to cover it and that you feel there's support there for it.

 

MR. INCE: Yes, I did, because there's a culture strategy which our department is beginning to work on which will address some of the shortfalls. You and I both know how most people may perceive culture but, as I say to a lot of people, culture is very important to all of us, it's in everything we do. If you are a science teacher sitting at home, you like to go out to the theatre, you like to do bowling, you like to do something that's culturally active.

 

MS. ZANN: Even looking at your iPod.

 

MR. INCE: Exactly. Our department has taken the lead, I would argue, to look at and promote culture. That being said, in promoting that culture, we're looking at it from all angles of our society.

 

MS. ZANN: So, for instance, I know that we've talked about Arts Nova Scotia and all these different things, which our government put in place over the last few years, but one of the other things we did was we brought the Arts Council back again, which was really important. We went around the province and talked to people and saw what are artists really wanting. What came back to us was that they really wanted an Arts Council back again, which had been taken away nine years or so before. They also wanted to receive the respect that was due them.

 

As I said in the minister's office even in my own government, you can't eat respect, you need to back it up with money. That's why we added money to the Arts Council and gave them double what it had been before.

 

One of the other interesting things we did was we established Arts Nova Scotia and all those different boards but we also established with a different department, Film and Creative Industries Nova Scotia. In your remarks you mentioned a bunch of different things, including the culture strategy. Are you including Film and Creative Industries Nova Scotia in that strategy? The arts and culture is supposed to be a portal for arts and culture, to be able to go through the doors and then once they've created something, to be able to be sent to this part or that part to be able to turn it into a viable and sustainable business. Do you know anything about that or have you been briefed on that at all?

 

MR. INCE: Well to answer the first part of your question in terms of appreciating and showing the importance of film and creative, yes, part of what we have included through the Creative Leadership Council and everything else is that connection. When I say "culture" and when our department talks about culture, we're including everything that culturally important.

 

MS. ZANN: Right, the cultural industries.

 

MR. INCE: So yes.

 

MS. ZANN: So does this new cultural strategy take that also into account, that you'll be using the Film and Creative Industries Nova Scotia? Maybe you might change the name of it to something else, I don't know.

 

MS. INCE: Yes, actually we work closely with the creative leadership and those other entities to help us put together this culture strategy so that it would include the organization you are talking about but others as well.

 

MS. ZANN: Yes, because it's like a new agency. It used to be called Film Nova Scotia, which was fantastic for the film industry but what we noticed is that a lot of the other cultural industries - the publishing industry and Dance Nova Scotia, theatre arts - couldn't actually utilize it. It was great for film, for television and for animation, but not for all of the other cultural activities.

 

What we did was open it up for all the other cultural industries as well. That's why I just wondered how it will fit in with this cultural strategy that you're mentioning today. This is the first I've heard of it.

 

MR. INCE: Let me just reiterate that when I read my speech at the beginning, I think I've captured some of that question that you're asking in that the creative industries, we realize how important they are. We work with Arts Nova Scotia and Creative Leadership Council and all of those agents to help us put together this culture strategy so that we can best address all those things that you're asking in terms of all the creative industries and the importance and the impact those creative industries have on our economic viability, and cultural growth as well.

 

MS. ZANN: So at this point are you saying you're not sure if you're going to be working through the Film and Creative Industries Nova Scotia itself as the agency that was set up to be able to basically help do what you're talking about?

 

MR. INCE: No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying we will work with all the partners - everybody who is in the cultural industry and we will look to their input to help us develop this culture strategy.

 

MS. ZANN: Have you had a meeting yet with Lisa Buntig?

 

MR. INCE: I have.

 

MS. ZANN: If you don't mind me asking, what have you discussed with her about a partnership going forward?

 

MR. INCE: My meeting with her was very preliminary. There's a project that's underway right now - The Book of Negros.

 

MS. ZANN: Yes, that's a film.

 

MR. INCE: With that particular project, we've had some conversations with her, so yes.

 

MS. ZANN: Great, that's a feature film.

 

MR. INCE: Yes, actually I think it's a mini-series.

 

MS. ZANN: Is it? Oh great.

 

MR. INCE: I think it might be a four-part mini-series.

 

MS. ZANN: Maybe there's a part for us in there.

 

MR. INCE: I can't take any more parts now. (Laughter) Unless they get me to do my stunts that I'm covered up and you can't see me.

 

MS. ZANN: Or play some drums or something. I heard they're casting for it.

MR. INCE: We're working very closely with them. Just to share with you and let you know, we're also looking at some opportunities for them to do some work with the Black Loyalist Society in partnership with that film, but also in promoting the film and the Black Loyalist Society as well.

 

MS. ZANN: That's great. Do you know when they start shooting?

 

MR. INCE: No, I don't. I know there was pre-production. I know they shot some scenes in South Africa. I know they're coming here and they're casting now.

 

MS. ZANN: So they've already started.

 

MR. INCE: April 24^th. (Laughter)

 

MS. ZANN: That's why staff are handy, right? They know everything.

 

MR. INCE: See now, that's great.

 

MS. ZANN: So that's when they started shooting in Nova Scotia.

 

MR. INCE: Yes.

 

MS. ZANN: Great, so are they only shooting around Bridgetown, then?

 

MR. INCE: Yes.

 

MS. ZANN: Fantastic.

 

MR. INCE: Several locations - Louisbourg, Lunenburg, Bridgetown. There's several locations around the province.

 

MS. ZANN: Obviously you're preaching to the choir here with me because when I first came in government, one of the reasons I ran for government was because I felt we needed more artists and more women in government; more diversity of all sorts. I kept saying over and over again in every economic meeting that I ever attended - well, what about the creative economy? - to the point where some deputy ministers' eyes would just glaze over and you see they were just going, oh my God, she's at it again, what are we going to do?

 

Interestingly enough, after doing it for four years and going on and on, we did manage to get a lot of stuff done and we did manage to get a lot of things changed, like the film and television credits, we managed to change them and improve them. There are still some things that need to be fixed with that but again, that's not your department.

 

The Book of Negroes is a wonderful example of the creative economy in action because you bring a movie like that to a small place like Nova Scotia, they've got a nice large budget, they spread out all around the rural districts, they get their extra 5 per cent tax credit for doing that, for not shooting in Halifax, which is really important for us. Halifax people, crews, don't particularly like it but people like me, who live out in Truro or wherever, it's important to those communities to be able to have as much types of jobs available.

 

Then they go into these communities and what do they hire? They hire carpenters, seamstresses, craft services, hotels, taxis, drivers, all these people who aren't your typical artist types get jobs and they get paid damn well, too.

 

I'm really excited to see that you're really gung-ho, and I knew you would be. As a matter of fact, we have our NDP convention coming up this weekend and I've been asked to do a special tribute to Rocky Jones, who is from Truro and was on my executive and was a lifelong member of the Party. I was going through some of our pictures of the last 10 years, with him helping me and doing various events. I came across the picture of us and you, the opening of the Black Cultural Centre, when you were drumming, right there, never thinking that you would be sitting here today doing this. So it's wonderful to see.

 

I believe that the more people who understand not just arts but also just how important diversity is to any province, to any community, because it expands people's minds, it's like a fabric. The arts and culture are like a fabric, it's like a tapestry and the more colours that get woven into it of various people with different ideas and different things that they can add to it, different sounds, different songs, different types of story-telling, then the richer that community will be and the more people are going to want to live there.

 

Anybody who has read Richard Florida's The Rise of the Creative Class - that's what it's all about. It's about the knowledge-based economy of the 21^st Century and how back in the old days a factory would set up in some little area where there was nobody and then a community would be built around that factory and it would become a factory town. These days that's not happening so much. The manufacturing industry has suffered a lot in Canada, why they're going over to cheaper places where they can get the work done and pay people less. In fact in those places a middle class is now starting to spring up that didn't exist before.

 

So in some ways I'm very happy for these other countries but it's very difficult for our workers and our people in North America. That's why, as Richard Florida talks about in The Rise of the Creative Class, it's so important for us to focus on creating a community where people want to live so that entrepreneurs who are going to start up a business of some sort, of course it's going to be creative, it has to be creative for you to even imagine what the business is going to be, that is creative.

 

The more people like that that we can attract to Nova Scotia who want to go to these little towns, who don't care if they live in Halifax or not - people used to say to me, oh why would you want to set up a theatre company in Truro, a theatre school in Truro, we've got Halifax. I'd say I just moved here from New York, it's not a big deal. Halifax is one hour's drive away, I can go to the city any time I want and I can see whatever I want but to be able to create this opportunity for people in the smaller districts, in the smaller communities, it's fantastic.

 

Just in the last four years I have seen the arts grow in Truro, for instance, just by pure support and showing people that you can be successful and don't need to leave home. We have the Nova Scotia Community College animation department there and they are churning out young animators who are now being hired by different companies here in Nova Scotia. Again, we have some great film and television tax credits there because if you hire a person straight out of school, then the company gets another 5 per cent tax credit. So it's good again, it helps retain young people in the province.

 

Most young people these days want interesting jobs; they don't necessarily want to be a factory worker, working on a line doing the same thing over and over again. Back in the old days people were happy to do anything. These days people say they want a job and say they're willing to do anything but most young people want something interesting. That's why I think it's so important that we do focus on the arts and culture here in Nova Scotia. People don't come here to see our skyscrapers. They come here to see our performers, to see our historic sites, our heritage sites, to see the beautiful vistas, to hear the music and hopefully to buy local products that are made by artisans and aren't just made in China.

 

That's another one of my pet peeves. Whenever you go to some of the more touristic places here in Nova Scotia - I've taken friends who have come here from out of town and they want to buy things, they want to spend money, they want to take something back to LA or New York or wherever they came from. They go and pick it up and there's a beautiful sweater made in Scotland or things are made in China. I know this is the same all over the world right now but my goodness, we have such great artisans, let's use them and let's try and give them as much of an opportunity as possible to have their wares bought.

 

I'm going to move on now to a couple more questions about, for instance - I'm going to get a little bit more specific. For instance, on Page 4.5 it outlines the overall spending for Acadian Affairs. I know you are not the minister responsible for this but it does fall under your department's budget. The funding for Acadian Affairs was decreased by over $22,000, which is noticeable in a small budget like the one for this agency. Could you just tell me which programs have been downsized or cut?

 

MR. INCE: First of all, let me back up and say thank you so much for talking about the creative industry, and your pride in Nova Scotia. I love the fact that you talked and you said something that I didn't even have to bring up and say that our government is doing exactly what you want it to do and when you look at our government, it's so diverse. Our current government is so diverse, we're working on all those levels that you addressed, so I'm so proud. Thank you for promoting that for me.

 

MS. ZANN: You're so welcome. I believe in it enormously.

 

MR. INCE: That said, there was a French-language services agreement and program that was in place that used to flow through our department. That no longer flows through our department, that now goes directly - one piece of it is flowing directly to the school communities, the centres, from the federal government. It's not a program reduction, it's a piece of that money that is taken from us now and going directly to the other stream.

 

MS. ZANN: So $22,000 came out of your budget. The French-language services - that was the one where they are translating government stuff from English into French, correct?

 

MR. INCE: Okay, so when we look at - there's estimates to estimates, which you are looking at, correct?

 

MS. ZANN: Yes.

 

MR. INCE: So the variance is $72,000 but when we look at it, the actual reduction is $99,000. Sorry?

 

MS. ZANN: I came up with $22,000, it decreased by $22,000. So it's $19,000?

 

MR. INCE: $72,000, which is through estimates. It's estimate to estimate.

 

MS. ZANN: You're saying that it was $72,000 that was the French language services? It's on Page 4.5.

 

MR. INCE: No, it's $99,000, which is offset by wage increases, which comes from the federal government, which is directed to those programs directly now. Am I answering your question?

 

MS. ZANN: I'm a little confused. So was the funding for Acadian Affairs decreased then?

 

MR. INCE: It doesn't decrease, it's just that money is going in a different direction, correct? (Interruption) Okay.

 

MS. ZANN: Okay, we'll try this again.

 

MR. INCE: There is no decrease. What's happening is that the money is still coming in but a portion of that, through wage and salary adjustments, is going to be there but a portion of that is not coming to my department, it is directly going to those services.

 

MS. ZANN: Okay - in other departments or one other department?

 

MR. INCE: It's going to school and community groups.

 

MS. ZANN: Education then? So it's going to the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development?

 

MR. INCE: Yes, it does go directly to the school community group, from the federal government.

 

MS. ZANN: Like the French community school?

 

MR. INCE: From the federal government to the French community school.

 

MS. ZANN: It used to be money that came from the federal government to your department and now it's no longer . . .

 

MR. INCE: Right, so they've cut out the middle man, in essence, it's going directly.

 

MS. ZANN: So is it going to the French school board then?

 

MR. INCE: That's correct.

 

MS. ZANN: Alright, that would explain that. I also noticed in Page 4.5 it seems like it indicates that the minister's office budget increased by $22,000. Is that being spent on salaries?

 

MR. INCE: Yes, wage increases.

 

MS. ZANN: Who is getting more money?

 

MR. INCE: Certainly not me. (Laughter) There are four staff in my department, so it would be the Deputy Minister, the secretary to the Deputy Minister, my secretary and my EA.

 

MS. ZANN: Who is your secretary these days? What is her name?

 

MR. INCE: Michelle Church. And those are wage adjustments.

 

MS. ZANN: Those are wage adjustments. So that $22,000 - did that get disbursed over the four of those staff?

MR. INCE: Yes, it will be.

 

MS. ZANN: Not all to Kelliann.

 

MR. INCE: Well because it's the estimates of 2014-15.

 

MS. ZANN: Right, okay, yes. Thank you. There was also another item - please pardon me for coughing. I've been very good at trying not to cough into microphones.

 

MR. INCE: So like I said, those wage adjustments don't come to me. (Laughter)

 

MS. ZANN: Another one - I know you had covered this a little bit, but again, I wasn't quite sure what the answer was. The decrease in the budget for African Nova Scotian Affairs on Page 4.6 - it seems like it's about a quarter of a million or 25 per cent of the budget. Was that due to an infrastructure project already being completed or what was that due to?

 

MR. INCE: That was a program that has been completed, which was funded by the federal government, which no longer is in operation.

 

MS. ZANN: Which program was that?

 

MR. INCE: The program was called Project LEAD. It taught youth about consequences and poor choices. It encouraged them to strive for excellence and it took a look at law, African Canadian culture AND heritage. This program worked at improving lives of African Nova Scotian youth from across the province.

 

MS. ZANN: Was that all federal money or did you guys put money into that as well?

 

MR. INCE: That was all federal.

 

MS. ZANN: They cut it. That's too bad; it sounds like a good program.

 

MR. INCE: There is another program that's starting up.

 

MS. ZANN: Which one is that one?

 

MR. INCE: I can't recall the name of it right now, but it's a program based on a program in Chicago - Ceasefire.

 

MS. ZANN: The one too where they made the salad dressings and everything was really good.

 

MR. INCE: No, that's a separate thing altogether.

MS. ZANN: That wasn't through your department?

 

MR. INCE: No, we've helped fund them, but it's not really through our department. It's called Hope Blooms.

 

MS. ZANN: That's right.

 

MR. INCE: The other program will be set up through the Department of Justice.

 

MS. ZANN: Yes, we had a few of the Lighthouse Community Grants, which did some things like that where they helped young people at risk and things like that.

 

MR. INCE: I would urge you to keep your eye opened for it because it is a hugely different program. It's a real different concept and there is the hope that it is really going to help a lot of young people.

 

MS. ZANN: That's good. Have there been any changes this year to the Community Facilities Improvement Program?

 

MR. INCE: Yes, there have been. We're looking at the program; we've made some adjustments. We're currently still looking at some of those adjustments. I would urge you to stay tuned and touch base with me later, and we can fill you in on what those adjustments have been.

 

MS. ZANN: Will you be letting us know soon - the other caucuses as well as your own?

 

MR. INCE: Yes.

 

MS. ZANN: That would be great because it did certainly help a lot of communities. We found a lot of little community places that needed help that were just falling through the cracks. It certainly did a lot of good.

 

I was going to ask you about the $220,000 extra increase to libraries, I believe. Is that for programs or is that infrastructure as well? Is it also for helping to fix up libraries that might be in need of physical work?

 

MR. INCE: Basically, that $200,000 is to go towards salaries and some of those other overhead pressures. It is additional to what they were getting before.

 

MS. ZANN: Is this for libraries right across the province or more just for the new one here?

 

MR. INCE: Yes, for all of them. That was done because they hadn't had an increase since 2010-11.

MS. ZANN: When will the new library be finished?

 

MR. INCE: Actually I hear that it is moving on quite well. It has gotten a lot of praise basically based on its design and everything else. It has international praise. I understand that it's coming along well, in terms of its development, and coming together in construction.

 

I can't tell you when it's going to open yet. I'm looking forward to touring it very shortly, in the very near future.

 

MS. ZANN: Can I come? It looks great. It reminds me a little bit of the one in Toronto. The one in Toronto is even a little bit more avant-garde but it's similar, so it's going to be very exciting. Again, it makes Halifax just a more cutting-edge city with really interesting, unique designs, as well as the beautiful historic districts.

 

Speaking of historic districts, I also want to talk about heritage, which is very close to my heart. I don't know if you are a heritage buff yourself - some people are, some people aren't. I just think it's so important that we maintain our heritage.

 

I've read statistics and I've heard experts say that people who come for culture and heritage, to see heritage sites, often will stay longer and spend more money than regular tourists or people who, for instance, will come to a convention centre. I mean there's always been that big hoopla - should we have a convention centre or shouldn't we have a convention centre? Also a lot of heritage people are concerned about the view and the view planes and the view of McNabs Island and from the hill and what's going to be built on that spot.

 

In that sense of the word, I know there are a lot of heritage buildings across the province where they are struggling to maintain them. There are some incentives, there are some tax incentives and things like that. Do you have any plans or is there anything in the works to try and help our heritage, the heritage people of this province to be able to fix up our beautiful old heritage buildings and keep them fixed up and maintain them?

 

MR. INCE: Yes, actually we have a number of programs which will help with heritage funding. I can give you a couple of names. I don't know if you heard earlier but I am and my department is preparing a list of all the programs for the MLAs, so you can have a list of everything we provide through our department. There's also accessibility on our Web site currently as well, to see some of those programs.

 

One program is a Heritage Property Program. That program provides supports to owners of registered municipal and provincial heritage properties with conservation in three areas; conservation work, conservation advice and the grant related to materials and labour.

 

Then there is the Strategic Development Initiative. That one encourages partners in heritage to develop projects that build on the communities' assets and strengths. The partners could include archives, communities, organizations, museums, heritage associations, municipal governments, regional development authorities and so on, and not-for-profit organizations.

 

There's the Nova Scotia Museum Research Grants Program which will provide research grant programs administered by the Nova Scotia Museum Board of Governors, which annually contributes to funding towards research projects that improve Nova Scotia's understanding of heritage. Then there is the Provincial Archival Development Program. Those are some of the programs that we provide for the funding for them.

 

MS. ZANN: Is there any talk at all or any interest by this government or by you, in particular, to reopen the Heritage Act and maybe give it some more teeth, so that people can't tear down our heritage properties?

 

MR. INCE: Yes, there is that particular Act already - the Special Places Protection Act. That Act we are actually reviewing it and looking at it right now as well.

 

MS. ZANN: Would you say you are looking at it in the sense of weakening it or making it stronger to protect heritage.

 

MR. INCE: We are interested in protecting our heritage properties and places.

 

MS. ZANN: Good, because I'll tell you, I know that it's a fine line and having been in government myself now, I know it's always a fine line between the people who are lobbying you to try and - the people who want to build new buildings and they want to tear down old buildings or they'll buy up a property and they'll just let it fall into the ground and then say well it's not worth anything. That's why we opened up the Act when we were in government, to strengthen it so that couldn't happen. That seemed to be going on quite a bit, it seemed to be quite a scam, actually, that was going on.

 

I know it's tough because you've got people in Economic and Rural Development and Tourism who are pushing at you trying to say well, don't give us any more red tape because we want to be able to get in there and build whatever we want to build. Yet again I say we don't come to Halifax to see the high-rise buildings, we come here to see the culture and the heritage. Once it's gone, it's gone.

 

MR. INCE: Well heritage preservation is a major role in the culture strategy.

 

MS. ZANN: Good, I'm glad to hear that. If you need anybody helping you to rah, rah and cheerlead for that, I'd be only too happy to.

 

Also I was very interested in the museum aspect of things - see map and your other - you said there were 27 museum sites, right? So there are 16 CMAP museums . . .

MR. INCE: No, it's the other way around.

 

MS. ZANN: I thought in your notes you said . . .

 

MR. INCE: No, no, there are - go ahead, I'll let you finish.

 

MS. ZANN: In my notes I wrote down that you said there were 27 museum sites.

 

MR. INCE: Right. There are 11 of those that are directly managed through our department and then there are 16 of those that are locally managed. There are 67 CMAPs.

 

MS. ZANN: Oh, 67, okay. So 67 CMAPs . . .

 

MR. INCE: They are not ours, they belong to the communities that they are in.

 

MS. ZANN: Then you said there were $200,000 for 16 CMAP community ones. Is that right, an extra $200,000?

 

MR. INCE: No, that's for the locally-managed museums.

 

MS. ZANN: Yes, for the 16 community museums, right?

 

MR. INCE: Sixteen locally-managed museums.

 

MS. ZANN: Locally managed, so there's another $200,000 in the budget for those? Right. Would those ones that they had requested this money or that your department just decided that they need this money, or has it already been given out or it still just there sitting, waiting for people to say oh, I'd like to have some of that for my community?

 

MR. INCE: That money was to alleviate wage and operational pressures. Again, it's another group that hadn't had any increases for a while, correct? So we wanted to ensure that those wage and operational pressures within those museums would be operational so that those locally-managed museums can survive and thrive in those communities.

 

MS. ZANN: Right, and that's right across the province.

 

MR. INCE: It's part of an annual grant.

 

MS. ZANN: Okay. Now here's a question, now I'm not sure if you would have the statistics or not but of the museums, you say there are 67 CMAP museums . . .

 

MR. INCE: Yes, that's correct.

 

MS. ZANN: . . . and there are 27 museum sites of which 11 are directly managed by the province, correct?

 

MR. INCE: That's correct.

 

MS. ZANN: But the province decides who gets to be a CMAP-designated - so who grants the CMAP designation?

 

MR. INCE: Well there is an evaluation process done by a committee that will look at whether or not that community museum will fit into that designation of a CMAP museum.

 

MS. ZANN: Exactly, but the province decides in the end whether or not they're going to give it to them basically, based on the criteria, correct?

 

MR. INCE: Well yes, it's based on a criteria and we are currently reviewing that process as well.

 

MS. ZANN: So you're currently reviewing that process as well. Here's another question, and again I'm not sure if you'll have the statistics, but I'd be very curious to find out. Of those museums, both the ones that the province directly manages - well you may not know the answer for the other ones, but the ones that the province directly manages and the other ones, do you know how many or what percentage would be diverse cultures - for instance, African Nova Scotian and/or Aboriginal? We know Birchtown, right?

 

MR. INCE: Yes, Birchtown. I would beg your indulgence and patience so we can get that information. There are two that come to mind, but one really isn't under us. Others throughout the province, I'm not fully aware of at this time.

 

MS. ZANN: I have a feeling though when we find out what it is, there is a reason for that because they're probably non-existent - the same thing with Aboriginal museums. I had an incident where my Glooscap museum in Millbrook was really wanting to be CMAP-designated because they could then go after federal funding and leverage the funding to be able to get more grants and things like that for their operations. This was a few years ago now. What we discovered was that of all the CMAP-designated museums, there was not one First Nations one. I had to fight and fight to get funding for the Glooscap Centre and we finally managed to get it, but it was like pulling teeth.

 

I'm very close with my First Nations community and I just feel that it's unfair and that the load has been stacked against First Nations and African Nova Scotian communities for years, so it would be very nice to see somebody who actually has an eye for it and who cares and wants to see that change. I would suggest that when you do your review, please keep that in mind, and just have that at the back of your mind when you're looking at all the different facts and figures and who is doing what and see what they are celebrating because there's so much more, as we've just said, to this province and different diverse cultures that need to be represented, in my opinion. We shouldn't be making them have to jump through arms and legs and teeth and hoops.

 

One of the problems with the Glooscap Centre was a cultural difference. One of the things that they had to have in place was that they actually owned a certain amount of their own - the pieces that are shown in the museum. In the Mi'kmaq culture, you can't own your ancestors things - the ancestors own them. So in fact they don't feel really that we own any of this because in their culture - especially when it comes to ancient pipes and ancient things - you can't own it, the ancestors own it. So whenever they were asked, well do you own your artifacts, they'd say no, we don't, and you don't own them either.

 

Again, it was a matter of having to explain this cultural difference to the people who were there at the time. Kelliann wasn't there so she wasn't involved; she was off doing something else in a different department at that point in time. These are the types of things that come up when you're dealing with different cultures. Again, Nova Scotia is so rich that I was shocked when I was told that there were no Aboriginal museums. Now I'm wondering, is Glooscap on the list now as a CMAP-designated museum?

 

MR. INCE: No, it's not currently.

 

MS. ZANN: Again, I would ask you to take a look at that.

 

MR. INCE: One of the challenges is that CMAP needs to be revised, as I mentioned earlier. As you mentioned, to use your phrase earlier, you are speaking to the converted, the choir here, because of African Nova Scotia descent, it's important for me that my culture is represented.

 

Now the other challenge is that there is very limited funding for CMAP museums. The way the system is currently, you can't take a new museum until another one, so it's like we've got 10, now if one leaves, then we can put a new one in.

 

MS. ZANN: That was the excuse they gave me the last time, too, when we were in government. My point is that times are changing and back in the old days, it was very difficult for African Nova Scotia or First Nations or even Acadian people to be recognized that their culture was important. In fact, one could argue that the Aboriginals were told they couldn't even practice their culture; they weren't allowed to do their dances, they weren't allowed to sing their songs, they weren't allowed to speak their language, they were dragged away from their families and thrown into a residential school where they were beaten if they were caught doing any of the above, or thrown in jail.

 

My point is that times have changed, our culture has changed and I think it's important that we recognize that and being the modern, progressive governments that we now are, I think that going forward we need to take that into consideration and say that's fine, fair enough that there might be 22 Gaelic CMAP-designated places but just because they've been there for umpteen years doesn't mean we can't have - now we're going to wait for them and we're going to tell them oh, you can't have yours but yet still tell the First Nations and the African Nova Scotians and the Acadians or what other cultures come forward, that they can't have one because well, you weren't on the list 100 years ago or whatever? It's something that I think you might want to just flag in your own head as you move forward.

 

MR. INCE: I will share with you that when I was out around the province doing some visiting and talking and have come across a couple of those CMAPS, that was certainly the discussion that I've had with some of the people who run some of those and the discussion around the fact that everything needs to be reviewed because this is probably an older process.

 

Now that said, we also have to remember now that the Museum of Natural History also includes staff and exhibits that interpret Nova Scotia's Aboriginal history. Although I just want to assure you that they're not left out. I would say to you that Roger Lewis is our Mi'kmaq expert and he is also our ethnologist, and enthusiast, too, so he is also working with us to help us to further the Aboriginal.

 

As I've said, we've got a huge project happening with the Black Loyalist Society which again, once you see this new building and I would call it an interpretive centre as well because it's going to be so interactive, so that's a start.

 

MS. ZANN: The one in Birchtown you mean?

 

MR. INCE: In Birchtown, yes.

 

MS. ZANN: I have to say thank you to Percy Paris for pushing that one through. That was his baby right from the beginning. He said that he was not going to rest until he got the money that he needed to put that and make that happen. I have to give credit where credit is due and thank Percy for that.

 

MR. INCE: I would also like to give credit to the people who are part of that association that is starting it. They did a fantastic job in raising some private funding monies, it was amazing.

 

MS. ZANN: Some of the things they had to go through, too, with the burning of that one building, there was that small building that was set on fire. It was pretty disgusting, some of the things that they've had to put up with. I've met some of the ladies who were involved in that whole project and yes, my hat is off to them as well.

 

Just going along right now along the Mi'kmaq cultural line, I have two questions; one is I know somebody who wants to - and they're going to be putting on a pow wow here at the Commons this summer, that last big powwow of course for the 400^th Anniversary of - I believe it was Membertou.

 

MR. INCE: I think it might have been.

 

MS. ZANN: It was a huge success, as you know, and there was about $0.5 million poured into that. We had a lot of tourists and a lot of people on the cruise liners coming up to check it out and things like this. A young woman I know, Shelley Young, who is a real go-getter, she is going to be putting on another pow wow this summer. I told her I would look into seeing if there was any kind of funding that could help put that on this summer because I think it would be a great tourist attraction, for one thing, and a great cultural event and could become a yearly festival for us and celebrate the First Nations people from all around the province and from the Maritimes, who want to come up and set up their tents and do the dances and with all the beautiful regalia, and sell food and different wares.

 

Are you aware of that project all yet? Is there anything in the Mi'kmaq cultural activities program that could help that project?

 

MR. INCE: Yes, there is, there's about $100,000 in that program that can help them.

 

MS. ZANN: So if I was to call you at a different time and maybe discuss it . . .

 

MR. INCE: Call the department and they will direct her and guide her to the - you know.

 

MS. ZANN: And who should she ask for these days at the department for something like that?

 

MR. INCE: Meghan Hallett.

 

MS. ZANN: Meghan Hallett - okay, I think I know Meghan. Meghan is involved with the heritage stuff, isn't she? Yes, and you guys are going to be doing the heritage awards and heritage fairs this year - are you involved with that at all?

 

MR. INCE: Yes, we will be.

 

MS. ZANN: Okay, that's good. My other question then about Mi'kmaq affairs is, what is going on with Debert? What's going on with the Mi'kmawey Centre there?

 

MR. INCE: Thank you for bringing up Debert because that's a program that we have shown a lot of support for. We have talked to the staff and Don Julien and everyone there around that particular program and we are definitely going to be supporting them and working with them on that.

 

MS. ZANN: Do you know if any money has been promised yet?

 

MR. INCE: We have provided some support for them already and we're still working with them to determine further supports and what we can be doing in terms of their program. We met with them about a couple of months ago.

 

MS. ZANN: Did you go out there?

 

MR. INCE: No, I didn't.

 

MS. ZANN: You should go for a tour sometime.

 

MR. INCE: I will be going out. I've got a number of visits scheduled all over the province.

 

MS. ZANN: I know. It's pretty cool, though, it's going to be very cool.

 

MR. INCE: A couple of months ago, it was African Heritage Month, it was too hard for me to do much of anything.

 

MS. ZANN: Yes, I know, if you didn't show up at one, somebody would be mad, I'm sure. I have toured it a few times and I do know Don, Julian, and I have been aware of it from the beginning and we put money into it when we were in government but I know they need more money to continue, because it's not finished yet. I believe they want to put in the old forest, the old forest as well, and have trails through the forest to be able to show people what it used to be like. Again, I think it's a great tourist attraction, what with the artifacts that they've found, which are the oldest Indian Paleolithic findings in North America. That's amazing. So once those artifacts are all set up to be seen, plus the forest that you can walk through and see - probably have actors set up too, so we can see the way life used to be. I mean, it could be a real destination place for people. So I do highly recommend this government continuing on with their support for that particular project.

 

I had another question about - in Millbrook, I know that there's interest in setting up a theatre company there. They've had problems with getting the right people and getting the right funding and things like this, and we also want to do some community theatre there as well, where we could get some funding to do some plays that are First Nations plays, written by First Nations writers, bring in some professional First Nations actors and director, and also use young people from the community who might be interested in becoming actors or dancers or musicians themselves, and incorporating them into a production.

 

This is something we've been talking about for the last few years now, and I've seen it in action myself. I flew up to Ottawa last year and watched a complete First Nations cast of King Lear, with Augie Schellenberg, who is a brilliant actor from Black Robe and Free Willy. He was a dear friend of mine who just died, so I got to see him in his last hurrah, his final performance on this planet.

 

It works. When you get them in there with a community, walking and talking with a community, living there for a month or so, teaching people that there are other types of jobs out there, that you can be an artist and you can be successful and make a lot of money and have a good life, and also getting the young people really excited about it.

 

So this is a type of project that we would like to do out there in Millbrook, but again, I'm just wondering if the department would be able to help fund that are community-driven, that aren't necessarily a professional company, but bringing in some professionals as well as the community that is there. Do you know of anything that exists that can help that type of . . .

 

MR. INCE: I wasn't aware of that particular program, but I can talk to the staff. We're willing to sit down and talk to you. As I said earlier, in my address, so to speak, community organizations - when we're looking at supporting culture, we're looking at it from many levels, not just from a broader or higher-arching level.

 

MS. ZANN: The thing is, too, as someone who is a professional actor, you've got to start somewhere. I started with high school musicals, then amateur theatre, and then turned professional by the time I was 17. So I know that you've got to get some experience somewhere. You don't just luck into turning professional right away - most people don't, anyway. So I think that any kind of programs that can help those kinds of collaboration are very, very good.

 

The same goes for Acadians - we're talking about doing a production this summer of Romeo and Juliet, and doing it set in Nova Scotia with Juliet Capulet - the Capulets being the British, and the Montagues - Romeo Montague - being the Acadians. That would explain why these "two households, both alike in dignity" hate each other so much, and they need the two young people who fall in love, because of course love knows no bounds. They need an interpreter to go back and forth in the shape of the nurse, who interprets back and forth the French and the English. So this is a project we're talking about doing in Truro this summer as well . . .

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Excuse me. The time has lapsed for the NDP caucus.

 

The honourable member for Northside-Westmount.

 

MR. EDDIE ORRELL: Thank you for allowing me a few moments to ask a few questions. As you know, I'm from a small town in Cape Breton and represent a bunch of rural ridings in the area, and we've been very fortunate in Cape Breton to have a lot of culture and a lot of history, a lot of different museums - Fortress Louisbourg, the Bell Museum. We've got the Cape Breton Highlands National Park, where there are golf courses, and Baddeck, and a bunch of different areas.

 

In each and every small town, there are yearly festivals. I know myself in North Sydney, we have what they call the Bartown Festival, which is a festival that was created leading up to the 100^th Anniversary of our town, and now we're well into 130-some-odd years as a town. Sydney Mines has the Johnny Miles Festival, which is fairly new. The people who run both of those festivals are volunteers. They're very good at what they do. They operate on a shoestring budget, a lot of times. I know that the department gives some money to each of those festivals, but one of the problems that they've run into over the last number of years was that the funding for coordinator for those festivals was cut to most festivals - I think it was most festivals in the province.

 

The problem we have in North Sydney, especially Sydney Mines, with the two little festivals we have, is that most of the people who do the organization of those festivals are volunteers. As you know, volunteerism - and this is a great thing - the people who do it don't ask for anything, but as they get old and they fall off the radar, it's hard to replace them with younger people. So a coordinator for the festival - on a part-time basis for six months or three months or whatever amount of time it would take - is very essential to the organization of the festival. We've been fortunate to have two or three people in both towns who have volunteered and have been there for years, and have been able to put the time and effort into the organization of it when they were being employed by the festivals. When they weren't being employed, then they had to find another job or a part-time job, which limited the amount of time they could put into it.

 

I guess my question is, has there been any consideration into reinstating the coordinators for those festivals? The festivals themselves were given student grants for a couple of months for the summer, for students, but the coordinator part was eliminated and it was hard for the volunteers who may have a full-time job or are maybe getting older to organize the employees, and then the volunteers at the same time. So I'm just wondering if there's any consideration being given to reinstating some of the funding toward coordinator or using some of the funding from other areas to help employ coordinators, to try to continue to allow these festivals to operate in small towns, especially ones like my own?

 

MR. INCE: Thank you for the question. Those programs are more employment-based programs, so they're not something that my department would handle, or deal with at all. I would urge festival organizers to contact our department, and we can talk to them. I can't guarantee that things will be put in place that will help them out, but we might be able to direct them.

 

MR. ORRELL: The other thing is, through the Bartown Festival, over the last number of years each summer, or in the Fall, the people who organize the festival also had - I know last year and the year before, they had a couple of full-blown plays commemorating different times in history. They've had very good success with them. They've had people volunteer to make costumes and people volunteer to be in the plays, and again, the organization part of that was the tough part in allowing for a hall rental, maybe, or other things like that.

 

It takes a considerable amount of money and effort on their part, and I know last year I did try to check into some funding for them. I don't know where it went after I pointed them in the direction. I'm just wondering, is that something that may be considered for funding through your department?

 

MR. INCE: Absolutely, yes. Again, approach us, and we'll talk to them. We'll find out what it is that they plan, what it is that they want to do, and we'll figure out either what program or what we can try to do to direct them and advise them.

 

MR. ORRELL: Again, it comes back to who does that, as far as the organization people go. The volunteers have the hardest time, because they have other commitments and full-time jobs, whereas if you had a coordinator who knew she was going to be hired on such-and-such a date and could prepare the documentation or do the speaking or the legwork to do that, it would be a lot easier for those types of festivals.

 

I know in North Sydney, and in Sydney Mines as well, they are very well attended. The people who come out on a nice sunny day even just to see the doll carriage parade or the soapbox derby that they might have, or the concert and the festival, the fireworks. It means a lot to the people, especially some of the older and the younger people - the children who like to see and participate and the older people who like to watch, to see the children participate. It means a lot to them. So if there's anything we could possibly do for that, I know that I would appreciate it, and I know the residents in my constituency would appreciate it as well.

 

The other question I have - we're quite fortunate to have a number of different museums in our area. One of them that has had problems over the last number of years is a fossil museum in Sydney Mines - and if you haven't been there, I do recommend that anyone who hasn't been there try to go to it. It's a little bit off the beaten path - it's down below the tracks, as they say - and it's all local fossils. The curator of the museum has done a great job. They've taken kids in certain areas and they found the fossils themselves and they put them on display. I know when I went there myself, knowing it was there - and of course the problem we have is that when something's in your backyard you don't frequent it as much as you possibly could. I know myself, to go around the Cabot Trail - it might've been around two or three times - you go partway. My children, when they went to Fortress Louisbourg and did the re-enactment there - so we started to get to Louisbourg and see a lot of it, and you really get an appreciation for it.

 

But after I visited the fossil museum in Sydney Mines - there are three little museums there that operate under the funding of one. And the difficulty is when you come into the staffing and into the heating, and they can't keep the doors open as long as they could, maybe for the whole tourist season. The employment of students gets to be tough, because they're only at a certain time. I did bring that to the department a couple of years back, about extra funding for the department, and I'm just wondering if that has been done, and if it has not been done, can we approach that again and have it looked into?

 

MR. INCE: Well, first of all I'll indicate that it is a community museum, which is under the CMAP. Again, the CMAP museums - we are looking at the review process for the CMAP museums so that we can try to ensure that the process is a little bit more equitable in terms of trying to look at how the CMAP museums - there's a whole review, and there's a board that looks at CMAP museums to say whether or not they can be fit into that criteria.

 

We're looking at that whole process, basically - that's what I'm trying to tell you. We will look at your specific issue to see if there's anything we can do. So to answer your question, we're open to talking and working with you to see if there's something we can do on that.

 

MR. ORRELL: Great, thank you. The other question I had is, last year, in around - and I'd be lying if I told you the exact date, but sometime through the Spring or summer of last year there was an article in the paper of a young entrepreneur or an entrepreneur in the Cape Breton area who was obtaining fossils and being able to sell them on the Internet. I guess that was - and I don't know if it's illegal, or if it was something - and it was well published. It was in papers, and they were selling this stuff all over.

 

The fossil centre in Sydney Mines thought that that would be a great idea for them to be able to do some of the - I wouldn't say "redundant," but some of the fossils that are very readily available, and it would be a good form of income to help offset the cost of running the museum. They had asked me if that was possible, and how they would go about it, and if it was even legal. When I found out that I didn't think it was legal, they weren't aware that that was the case.

 

So is there anything that could be done to help facilitate extra funding, I guess - not necessarily by the sale of so-called fossils that would be in the museum. Cape Breton is a coal-mining area, and there are thousands and thousands of fossils as you walk along the beach. Even the beach that I grew up at you see them washed on the shore. Some of them are etched in kind of a slag type of thing and it would be a way that they could offset some of the financial burden they have and leave a little more self-sufficiency for them.

 

Is it illegal? If it is, then we can bring that back and say, but if that's the case, are you aware of the other - and I shouldn't say this - but of the other people who might have been doing it and it might not have been here in the area but it was an article I read in the paper somewhere.

 

MR. INCE: First of all, yes, it is illegal. The Special Places Protection Act ensures that all findings - fossils and so on - are here and stay in the province for Nova Scotians. To do what the individual is doing is highly illegal.

 

Now the challenge, of course, as you know, is trying to sort of enforce or police it to ensure people aren't doing that. I would suggest that no, there's no extra funding because I think you did ask if there was funding to support that. First of all, it's illegal so we wouldn't be giving any funding to anything that is illegal.

 

MR. ORRELL: No, but there would be a special licence . . .

 

MR. INCE: No, no licences, there's nothing. Anything that is found ideally should be reported to the museums and the archives or whoever, right, to ensure that those pieces that are uncovered and found are protected and put in a place so that we can preserve them but also ensure that Nova Scotians can view those artifacts at a later time.

 

MR. ORRELL: Yes, because they didn't want to get into anything illegal and start drawing. I mean it's great to get attention, but not that form of attention.

 

MR. INCE: No, not in that fashion.

 

MR. ORRELL: No, and I didn't want to because they have a good operation and they have a good product. They have been doing great jobs in trying to get school kids in there. The problem is that during the school year, they don't have the funding to keep it open so even if they had it open for the month of June or the end of May that the kids could get in there in the earlier grades that don't have exams. But then you've got to have heat on and you have to have staffing and power and it's just a vicious circle.

 

One other question I have, and I'll keep it fairly short, a number of years there used to be small grants for areas to put on - I know in North Sydney at the Marine Atlantic ferry terminal, they used to put on what they called a summertime Ceilidh. Once every couple of days or every day or so they put on a fiddle show or highland dance show. The ladies that organized it had a highland dance troupe and she took on the task - they gave her a small grant to fund it and it was great. They had a little stage set up and the people who were waiting for the ferry got to see a free show. Sometimes we're fortunate enough that when the ferry gets delayed or if the scheduling of the ferry is such, people start to roam through our town.

 

The challenge is, like I say, to come up with funding, even small grants. I know that was more difficult to get over the last number of year and I realize the financial constraints that are on the province now. I'm just wondering, has there been any consideration given to trying to promote our culture and our heritage and our young talent that way through maybe small grants that could be used in that form?

 

MR. INCE: Well we have a variety of programs and you weren't here earlier when I mentioned that we are going to be providing a list of all the programs and how you can apply for that program and everything else, which I'm calling an MLA package, that we'll be sending out. Currently, though, you can go online and look at all the programs. To give you an idea, we have a Culture and Youth Activities Program which they might want to look at. Actually I've just been shown that we have $423,000 for that particular program.

 

MR. ORRELL: Is there a limit on that, on how much, how many, a certain area or is that worked out yet?

 

MR. INCE: Well there's an external assessment panel that reviews the applicants to see if they qualify.

 

MR. ORRELL: Totally?

 

MR. INCE: Yes.

 

MR. ORRELL: Thank you very much, I appreciate the time.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Pictou West.

 

MS. KARLA MACFARLANE: Thank you, minister. I don't want to lament continuously on Bluenose II but I do have about two or three more questions and then I will be wrapping up and getting out of everyone's way.

 

MR. INCE: That's what we're here for.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: I realize that and this will hopefully put an end to it all, right? I first want to ask about the dollars - was any of the project sourced in American dollars, any of it?

 

MR. INCE: Say that again.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: How much, because I'm pretty sure there was, how much of the project was sourced in American dollars, are you aware of that?

 

MR. INCE: Well we're not aware of anything but we can double check.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Okay, that would be great. Can you outline the process in which the assets of the Bluenose II trust were transferred to the province? How that actual transaction took place?

 

MR. INCE: Okay, well to let you know, the assets previously were controlled by the Schooner Bluenose Foundation, which is a preservation trust. Some of its assets were transferred to the Lunenburg Marine Museum Society, including $547,000 in cash and approximately $75,000 in inventory from the company store. The building on the Lunenburg waterfront which houses the company store and two commercial tenants will be transferred to the Lunenburg Marine Museum Society once the outstanding maintenance work is completed.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Okay. So the province received $1.2 million in cash and in assets that we just spoke of, those assets, right? So the trust held the $125,000 to cover closing costs. I believe there was supposed to be about $1.4 million in total assets. I know you probably won't be able to do this right now and I can appreciate why you can't, so I'm just wondering if you can provide a complete summary of those assets to me at a later date.

 

MR. INCE: Yes, we can, and there's still an outstanding amount that hasn't been quantified of the $125,000.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Okay, thank you, I appreciate that.

 

MR. INCE: The trust is winding up their process so that's what we're waiting on.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Okay, thank you. I think the province had to bring in a mediator to work with MHPM - the project managers and the Lunenburg Shipyard and to resolve contract disputes. Is that correct? I'm just wondering if there has been a total cost in that yet. Was that beyond the budget that was already set - those costs? In simpler terms, who pays for the mediator?

 

MR. INCE: There is no mediator.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: There wasn't?

 

MR. INCE: No.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: So who settled the disputes?

 

MR. INCE: Well that's why I've asked for the Auditor General to look at everything in its entirety. There is no mediator currently. Currently, the MHPM is the management.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: So if we word it this way though - if the mediator is considered the Auditor General, is he paid out of your guys' budget, is maybe the way I should have worded it? Does he do this within his own salary or because you brought him in, is there an additional cost to his service on this?

 

MR. INCE: The Auditor General is a separate thing altogether. If there is the need for an arbitrator - that contract calls for an arbitrator if there is a need, but we're not even there yet.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: You saved the 1 per cent in your department, which equaled about $700,000, right?

 

MR. INCE: Yes.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: With regard to African Nova Scotian Affairs, I see that there has been no chance really in the funded staff, but you mentioned earlier that there is about a 20 per cent decrease in funding for that. What services or what is being taken away from there?

 

I also want to know what your thoughts were on that. That's a pretty big jump, 20 per cent from that particular department. Were you aware of that before the budget came out or were you part of making that decision to cut it 20 per cent?

 

MR. INCE: The decision to cut that particular program, which is called Project Lead, was out of our hands. It's federal government-funded. Once the federal government said that this program is finished, those funds ceased.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Why then do we have the same amount of staff. If the funding was there to staff a special project, why do we still have the same amount of staff?

 

MR. INCE: It was a collaborative project with community and other organization partners. The program, as I said earlier, worked on improving youth and their perceptions, giving them a sense of culture and heritage. That program, being funded by the federal government and having collaborative and co-operative community partners, that's where most of that staff was placed or dealt with. Our staff assisted and helped direct the program.

 

Also, given the fact that we've got a department, African Nova Scotian Affairs, that has a very small complement really - it doesn't have a huge staff - the staff is needed because we have a satellite office in Cape Breton and our staff needs to get around the province to reach the African Nova Scotian communities to deal and help them access the government and what we are trying to provide for them.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Great, thank you. I'm just looking here at Strategic Planning. Is there anything being - a connection with schools and strategic planning, to work with schools?

 

MR. INCE: Maybe if you can just clarify, show me what you are specifically referring to.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: When I'm looking at the budget here and Strategic Planning - I wonder are we trying to enhance, I guess, the department's connection with going into the schools and working with the youth and promoting heritage? I guess the schools, what would that fall under here in your budget? Would it be under Programs and Services? I just thought that someone had mentioned before that it was under Strategic Planning.

 

MR. INCE: This would address within that department cultural research, reaching out to our educational stakeholders and so on and our culture strategy in the planning.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Okay. Would all schools tap into something like that? Is it the responsibility of the school to contact you guys to see if there's funding there for them to bring in, like you guys can do special projects.

MR. INCE: That's not a funding program but schools often tap into the museums and the libraries.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: So it's basically on their own agenda to try to reach out to you guys.

 

MR. INCE: Yes.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Okay, good. And I have one final question and then I will exit. You mentioned earlier that you didn't make it into the Doers and Dreamers Guide. Obviously that's very unfortunate, if the vessel is going to be hitting the water by late Spring or early summer. I will assume that on your Web site you will have their agenda, showing where they will be docking throughout the province in the summer months.

 

When I'm looking at the budget here and I'm looking at marketing and promotion, I'm just wondering what the cost would be for you actually advertising in the Doers and Dreamers Guide? Was that anticipated in this budget or is it not in there?

 

MR. INCE: Well the Doers and Dreamers Guide is under Tourism so it's separate. We have everything under our Web site and trying to promote. It will be on the Tourism site when we're ready. Again, we'll have to look at planning in the coming year.

 

You are correct, it's unfortunate that we've missed this but again, with the changes in government and everything else and with the changes and the fact that we are just focusing on trying to ensure that our sailing ambassador gets sailing again.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Right. So when I look under marketing and promotion, would that cost be in there, to advertise in the Doers and Dreamers Guide? Or maybe you don't have to pay because of being part of the province. I'm just trying to figure out if there's a budget for promoting . . .

 

MR. INCE: That marketing budget would include everything that we do in terms of marketing - museums, libraries and so on. Here is sort of one example of what we do to market everything and Bluenose II would be included in some of that marketing.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Bluenose II would be included in some of that marketing.

 

MR. INCE: Yes, but when we get . . .

 

MS. MACFARLANE: So let's look at it like this - here's the Doers and Dreamers Guide, I'm the sales person, I'm coming to you. Will you take out an ad in the Doers and Dreamers Guide? Unfortunately, we didn't make it this year. If I come to you and you say, yes, we are going to put an advertisement in it, I want to know how much it costs.

 

What I don't understand is if it doesn't cost anything from your department and know - like when you said it didn't make it this year - why we didn't put something in the Doers and Dreamers Guide if it wasn't going to cost, showcasing Bluenose II if we didn't have to put their agenda in the Doers and Dreamers Guide. So I guess what I'm trying to get around is, what was the reason for not at least putting it in there just to show it if it wasn't going to cost anything? It's clear as mud, maybe - I don't know.

 

MR. INCE: First of all, it does cost. In terms of lead time, I think that may have been a part of it. I can confirm all of that for you at a later date or later on, and get you a solid answer for that, but it does cost.

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Well I'm going to scoot so I just want to thank you and your department for taking the time to answer my questions. I really appreciate it.

 

MR. INCE: Thank you.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley,

 

MR. LARRY HARRISON: Minister, I don't know whether you're familiar or not with a presentation that was made by the council for regional librarians. It was presented to the deputy minister and it was to the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage. You're familiar with it?

 

MR. INCE: Yes, I was present.

 

MR. HARRISON: Okay, then I don't need to go over the facts of what's in here. I don't know whether you remember the options or not. I'm just wondering, with that presentation, is there any thought to doing more for the libraries? I'm surprised that they increased in their activity.

 

MR. INCE: It was quite interesting because this was earlier in my position. They were one of the first people I got to see. We did fulfill their ask, and what we are doing is we are going to review the funding and how things are funded and described within the Libraries Act.

 

MR. HARRISON: Actually, I'm amazed that the libraries are used to that extent. When I looked at the figures I was surprised where folks have internet now.

 

MR. INCE: They're huge community hubs and they are so much more than just books and walls that everybody believes. I was quite surprised when I visited a couple of libraries and when they shared with me some of the programs that they do, especially around young children and reading and all the other things. It's more than just reading. It was quite amazing.

 

MR. HARRISON: Just the different activities that are there for them to learn.

MR. INCE: Tons of activities - they are truly community hubs right now.

 

MR. HARRISON: So really then it would be worth the investment to keep those going.

 

MR. INCE: Yes.

 

MR. HARRISON: I know when I first moved to Brookfield, I used to stand in my kitchen window and watch the amount of people that came for the travelling bookmobiles. I was amazed. Are they stopped right across the province now? Seniors used to just flock to those things.

 

MR. INCE: They're not as prevalent as they used to be, but I think there are still a couple. I do recall hearing a few - and I can't recall where it was now. I think New Glasgow had mentioned they still have a bookmobile that still travelled around in that county.

 

MR. HARRISON: Do you know what kind of criteria would be in place to do that?

 

MR. INCE: No, I don't.

 

MR. HARRISON: I know it stopped and I always wondered why. You used to just pull into the church parking lot and people would just keep driving in to pick their books up.

 

MR. INCE: It's up to the regional library boards to determine those bookmobiles and everything else and the programming.

 

MR. HARRISON: There is a good regional library in Truro, and that's probably where it came out of. With respect to some of the programs that we mentioned earlier in rural areas, I'm not stupid - I know that there is a limit to what monies are available, there's no question about it. I keep reinforcing to people - the firemen, the BCA, any group - that there is only so much money that's available, and we really have to rely, even more so, on volunteers than ever before.

 

I'm just wondering what your thought is about even providing seed money for stuff if other people would do the work - volunteer the work - but have seed money to even start up certain programs or whatever.

 

MR. INCE: I understand that there are many organizations and individuals who are seeking funding, and as I've alluded to, the importance that my department and I see in the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage. However, that said, I would urge any organization or applicant or individuals or groups to put together a program plan to try to do that - fill out the application. In some cases, I've been able to avail staff to help people put even some of that together. It's an application by application basis for funding. It's the way it has to be done because funds are so limited.

MR. HARRISON: I know there are a lot of people out there who have the mentality - let's just get the government to pay for all of this. It can't, but if some seed money was there for certain programs and they are willing to do the volunteer work of making sure that program runs, then the department is open to getting that information application and then just take it one at a time.

 

MR. INCE: Yes, there is some seed money there and it's all about just getting their applications in and trying to figure out whether or not they meet the certain criteria for the particular grant or the funding or the program. I'd like to say that we don't really turn too many people away - we try to work with them. That doesn't mean they're going to get the funding, but we will help them through certain processes.

 

MR. HARRISON: But if they're going to be reasonable and you're going to be reasonable, then chances are something will happen. The odds are higher, let's put it that way.

 

MR. INCE: You also have to remember too that some of the grants are peer adjudicated; some of them are assisted by panels and so on. The department doesn't necessarily have the final say on a lot of the programs because we want to be arms-length from some of those decisions.

 

MR. HARRISON: Okay, that's helpful to realize that. So there are other folks outside the department who may look at those grants and determine?

 

MR. INCE: Exactly. It will all be in the package that we provide to you when we've got it together. I guess that's the misconception and I'm starting to see that based on the questions that are coming across from my colleagues across there. What they don't often realize is that the way our department is set up, we can be arms-length so we don't influence anything and these other organizations, boards and panels will make those decisions on behalf. A lot of it will be based on artistic merit and so on, depending on the grant and the program.

 

MR. HARRISON: I don't have any other questions. Like I said, I've appreciated all the information that you've given and I know the department will do a lot of good stuff. If I can assist in any way in my particular area, please let me know - to get information out or whatever the case may be. That's our job, too, to be that liaison between government and the constituency.

 

MR. INCE: I'm always welcomed to work with you and your colleagues.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: We could pass it on to the NDP, but no one is here. We can't break - we have to go for the four hours - so we're going to switch it over to the Liberal Party now for questions.

 

The honourable member for Guysborough-Eastern Shore-Tracadie.

MR. LLOYD HINES: I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to speak to you today. It's nice to see you here and thank you for your very articulate explanations of the workings of your department. I want to ask you a question around the milestones that we are entering into in the coming year.

 

I want to mention that in my particular riding, we have one of your finest museums, which is Sherbrooke Village. It's certainly one of the living museums - a very important part of your museum network. We're very proud of it - particularly in the district of St. Mary's and the community of Sherbrooke where, of course, it is not only a significant traffic generator and tourist attraction, but it is also a very practical and important employer for the area.

 

For those who are not entirely familiar, it's a snapshot of a mid-1800s Nova Scotia settlement. It's nestled on the shores of one of Nova Scotia's great salmon rivers - the St. Mary's River - and it is in original condition. They make pottery there. They actually have a wonderful woodworking shop there. The tin-a-type photographs are there and there is an old-fashioned pharmacy there - it doesn't dispense - and all kinds of very charming and interesting things, a great spot for children.

 

I also must say that they're a very vigorous group there and a few years ago they introduced something called Old-Fashioned Christmas and I was able to attend it this past Christmas. I have to say it was one of the largest gatherings that I've ever seen in the riding - it's a big riding. I think there were 4,100 people at that, so it was pretty fabulous and a lot of activities. The people worked very hard in the area there and are very proud of that particular facility.

 

Also, I want to thank the department for recognizing the importance of the church that it is in that village. It's a lovely church - I believe it's Presbyterian. It's not used for mass anymore, but it's a very important meeting place for the community. I was in the church on Remembrance Day, celebrating the Remembrance Day ceremony this last November with the veterans. It was packed - it's a very beautiful spot. The next day, the ceiling, which is probably as high as this one, had a failure and a major chunk of the ceiling fell out. That created all kinds of difficulties.

 

I understand the nature of the demands that are on your department there. I was really pleased that the department was able to find a solution and I believe that has been repaired at the present time. The community is very grateful for that because though it is still not used for services, it is used to service the community - so a very important role that your department plays in that portion of the community.

 

We also have in Guysborough one of the private tourist museums - the Guysborough Historical Society - who operate the tourist facility and receive funding from your department also. They do a fabulous job of keeping up the heritage piece that's along the Eastern Shore there.

 

I'm sure that the members would appreciate that all of Nova Scotia represents some of the earliest settlements in North America, in places like Guysborough, Canso and St. Mary's, which were the homes to our early Aboriginal communities - which in that part of the area they were migratory. The first European contact occurred in those areas.

 

If you come through some of the communities you'll see founded in 1634, as a matter of fact, for the settlement of Guysborough, there's a particularly interesting monument in Charlos Cove, which is a federal monument - simply a plaque on a giant piece of granite that's there. It's a gentleman called Captain Savalette who was fishing in that area in 1508 and that's how far things go back there. That whole piece of the history is very important to the area.

 

I must also mention that considering your other responsibility for African Nova Scotian Affairs, the riding is proud to be the home to a very large contingent of Nova Scotia's African Nova Scotian community in the communities of Sunnyville, Lincolnville and Upper Big Tracadie in particular. Those are folks who came with the Loyalists and have made a great contribution to our community, and I was very happy to present a resolution in the House today to one of our more prominent African Nova Scotian citizens, Mr. Alonzo Reddick, who is a tremendous guy and a great friend.

 

I'll also say that the Municipality of the District of Guysborough petitioned the Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board in 1994 to set aside their numeric consideration of the rules that govern how many districts you have in the municipality, how many voting areas you have. We made the argument that the African Nova Scotian community should have an opportunity to be represented on our municipal council.

 

The three communities are not contiguous, they're separated, so for the first time the board agreed that they would link those communities up - not physically, but in the cultural sense - and provide an opportunity for an African Nova Scotian to emerge. Anybody can run there - you don't have to be African Nova Scotian - but since 1994 we have had an African Nova Scotian on our municipal council and we are blessed in that we have a very vigorous lady African Nova Scotian councillor. You probably remember Sheila Pelly who represents her entire area. It is really nice to see the African Nova Scotian community represented on that council and I think she's the only African Nova Scotian female councillor in Nova Scotia. Aspects of your department are very important to what we're up to in the riding.

 

My question is, if you look at what is happening around that historical piece this year - we're getting close to important anniversary dates like the centennial of the First World War this year, the centennial of the Halifax Explosion in 2017, and Canada's 150^th Anniversary in 2017. I would be excited to hear what you see from your department would be doing to commemorate some of these milestones that are important to us because of our great history in particular that we have in Nova Scotia.

 

MR. INCE: First of all, let me go back to Sherbrooke Village. Sherbrooke Village is a wonderful site. I haven't been to it yet.

 

MR. HINES: Oh, you've got a treat coming, sir.

 

MR. INCE: Yes. From what I've read and understood about it, I will feel a fondness for it because I worked at such a site in Ontario when I worked at Black Creek Pioneer Village for more than 10, 13 years. If it's anything like that, then I can see the value in it. It is larger than Black Creek Pioneer Village in that it has 25 buildings that are still standing that are historic site. We see the value because it's one of the largest employers in the area.

 

Just so that you know, we do provide $1,747,000 for that particular site to keep it operational. Actually, I can come up with another $63,000 for you.

 

MR. HINES: Oh, that's perfect.

 

MR. INCE: That said, I'm looking forward to seeing that particular facility and seeing all that it has because it brings back my memories of the interpreters dressed for battles and everything else in Ontario at the Black Creek Pioneer Village. It appears they do the same here. The difference being the food is going to be better because we've got lobster and shellfish - you can't get the fresh stuff up there.

 

Moving to the community, I can talk about my visit during African Heritage Month and down at the African Heritage Centre. I was blown away by some of the artifacts that they had in there. As an historian, that's what I went to first, and seeing some there that I thought, wow, this is fantastic. I didn't know that an area such as Guysborough had that information and had some of those artifacts. It's not discussed and it's not promoted enough and I think it needs to be promoted more.

 

I also was quite surprised that as Minister of African Nova Scotian Affairs, I was the first minister to visit there, which blew me away.

 

MR. HINES: That was well appreciated.

 

MR. INCE: Thank you. Now, to talk about some of those plans or events, I will just simply say that if the community is looking to try to put together something that they want to do to commemorate those periods in our history and so on, we're open to talking with them and seeing if we can help them.

 

MR. HINES: Thank you.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm going to take an opportunity to ask you a quick question and then I'm going to pass it on to my colleague. There has been a lot of talk about all the different ridings and all the different cultural events and things that they have to offer. In my riding, we like to celebrate lobster, lighthouses, dories, beer, four-wheelers, but we've been very lucky in our riding because we have a lot of motivated people who have gotten together. You know, times are tough and people may not be making all the money in the world that they want to be making, but people are very generous in Nova Scotia.

 

In our riding we're very lucky because we have the Sou'wester Days, which the community gets together. We have boat tours on that day. We have a beer tent, of course - there you go, Lenore - dances and all kinds of things to celebrate the history of Sambro. We started the Harvest Festival last year for the first time, which is to celebrate Spryfield. We're trying to find ways to bring people into our community, which isn't always easy and it always comes down to - as I'm sure everyone in this room knows - dollars. We've been very lucky that we've been able to raise - and we spend every month of the year from dances to bake sales to whatnot to raise the money for these events.

 

Now not every community is like that and not every community has that kind of funding. So my question to you is, what programs are available to off-set these community and cultural festivals? I know this may be a little bit out of your scope there, but the one thing I've learned since I've been doing this for the last eight months is - there are other ways to go about this. There are businesses that you can go through; there is the municipality; there is federal funding. I know your area of expertise is provincially, but I guess if you could give us a guideline on other programs you may have heard of outside of the province too - outside of the department, but also what you have inside the department. I know it's kind of wide-ranging, isn't it?

 

MR. INCE: I would suggest and urge you - because I can't tell you currently right now outside of my department what other programs might be available, but I have a very knowledgeable and expert team that can probably give you a better direction and help you with that because I'm sure that my team would be able to. They've got their finger on the pulse of what's going on. I'm sure they would be able to direct you and guide you to the outside sources.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: What programs specifically in your department then are the ones that are being most widely used? (Interruption) I know, I saw her go, all of them. If you could maybe just give us a list of some of them for the people in the room, the programs that are being made available, that are being used - not just for cultural events, but art events, and which part of your departments you would recommend going to for them. (Interruption) He doesn't have to go through every single one of them. This is an information session and this is for all of us to get to know the department and what it's doing.

 

MR. INCE: I will give you a quick little breakdown and, again, I would urge all to go onto our website if you're looking for something immediately, but if you can wait until we get the packages together you will have it all. To give you an idea, we have Arts Nova Scotia funding awards and in that there are several programs. There is a grand prize, which offers an annual award of $2,000. There's Grants to Individuals and what this particular funding gives - it supports the creation of new works by professional artists in all disciplines including fine craft, literary, visual, media and performing arts. There is $694,000 into those programs for funding.

 

The other one is Grants to Organizations and Small Groups, which is probably where you're leaning towards. That program supports artistic development through three categories of funding. It assists with the production of specific work or programs or presentations to the public; the commissioning of new work; and professional development for organizations. This particular program is also a peer selection committee that looks at those grants and that funding. For Grants to Organizations and Small Groups, there is $412,000 for that.

 

Then there is the Nova Scotia Art Bank; there is operating assistance to arts organizations; there's a Portia White prize; there's community funding awards, which is the community spirit awards; and what I spoke about earlier is the Community Facilities Improvement Program. There is cultural funding awards; there is community art and cultural recognition awards; there is cultural and youth activities program, which I mentioned earlier as well. There are industry growth programs; there is operating assistance to cultural organizations; there are Gaelic language and community programs.

 

Under heritage funding, there is the Community Museum Assistance Program, which we've already discussed; the Heritage Property Program; the Strategic Development Initiative; and the Provincial Archive Development Program. Under the Support4Culture program, Arts Nova Scotia in partnership with Businesses for the Arts will introduce the artsVest program, which helps arts and cultural organizations form funding partnerships with businesses within the community.

 

There is an artistic innovation program; artist residency program; arts equity funding; creative collaborations. There is the Diversity in Community Capacity Fund. I mentioned the Mi'kmaq Cultural Activities Program. So those are some of the programs.

 

When you look at the list, I think everybody will be quite surprised at what we do and what we provide, and if I may take the liberty and go to the level - that's why they call us the Ministry of Fun. (Laughter)

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: There you go. There are an awful lot of programs and grants available. Besides the website, what else are you using to get that information out there? You took three minutes and named probably 20 per cent of the programs you have. For somebody to - if they have a specific celebration, a specific cultural icon, a museum - besides the website, what are you using to get that information out there that we have these programs available to you in your communities?

 

MR. INCE: Well, staff will go out to the communities and when those folks come to us they will do program information sessions and talk about all the programs that we provide. Social media, through the museums, libraries - all that stuff is available through all those different mediums.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So if someone - one of the MLAs or an organization within someone's riding - wanted that information, they could just contact the department and possibly have somebody come out and give them the information or do an information session with them. I'm assuming you prefer to deal with community groups or some kind of organization, or does it really matter?

 

MR. INCE: It doesn't matter. We're not limited. As I said, there are individuals, community groups; organizations. There are business organizations that will work with community groups. It's a wide variety.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

 

The honourable Minister of Justice.

 

HON. LENA DIAB: Mr. Chairman, how many minutes do we have left?

 

MS. LENORE ZANN: I was supposed to start again at 8:02 p.m.

 

MS. DIAB: We were waiting for you. You weren't here.

 

MS. ZANN: I was here.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Truro-Bible Hill-Millbrook- Salmon River.

 

MS. ZANN: I have a few questions about some of the stuff you were talking about earlier. For instance, you know when you mentioned about the lotteries and ticket prices, events and opportunities for the arts - how much money are we talking about annually that comes in from that?

 

MR. INCE: The money that comes from the lotteries and casinos is $2 million for the support for culture.

 

MS. ZANN: So of all the money that they make, they give us $2 million for arts and culture.

 

MR. INCE: That is correct.

 

MS. ZANN: Does that ever go up or does it just stay the same?

 

MR. INCE: This is a relatively new program. It's only in its second year. For now it's $2 million. I'm happy to have that, but I'm hoping we can get more in the near future.

 

MS. ZANN: Is it a percentage base or is it a set figure?

 

MR. INCE: It's an amount of money based on the specific sale of target product that the Lottery Corporation controls.

 

MS. ZANN: So that started in 2011 or something like that?

 

MR. INCE: It started in 2013.

 

MS. ZANN: How much money have we made so far from it?

 

MR. INCE: We got $2 million last year - we spent it and we'll get another $2 million, so it's a yearly thing.

 

MS. ZANN: The other thing I wanted to ask was, could you explain a little bit more about the cultural index? You just touched on it lightly and I was just curious.

 

MR. INCE: The cultural index is an internal process, and what it will do is measure the impact of culture and the appreciation and involvement in cultural activities. We've hired Gardner Pinfold, so they are helping us put that together so that we can grab that data, analyze it and put it all together.

 

MS. ZANN: That is basically so that you can explain to people like the Department of Finance and Treasury Board, that this cultural thing actually makes money and it's worth putting money into? It's to explain to people, right?

 

MR. INCE: Yes, it's providing a benchmark for culture and the economy, and how culture affects economy. Also, as I said, we consider culture to be a fourth pillar. We're gathering data to show and quantify the importance of culture to our economic growth in the community - and social growth.

 

MS. ZANN: When did you start doing that? When did that process start?

 

MR. INCE: It's something that just started late last Fall. It's relatively new. We're just in the information gathering stage at this point.

 

MS. ZANN: How long do you think it will take to put it all together?

 

MR. INCE: We're hoping to launch it in 2014.

 

MS. ZANN: Do you think it will come in like a brochure form that we'll all be able to get a copy of?

 

MR. INCE: Sure, and it will be widely publicized. It will be on our site and everything else so I'm sure it will be available to all who are interested in looking at that information.

 

MS. ZANN: That sounds really great. I have another question for you about the Legacy Project. Have you heard about that? There is a group of artist arts groups around town who have been trying to get government interested in giving them a space where they can put dance and music and theatrical events on. You must be aware of it, I would imagine. (Interruption) Although you're new back to it too, Kelliann.

 

I believe Live Art Dance is a part of it; 2b theatre is a part of it. They were looking at the library spot here to try to see if they could maybe put a performing arts space there because most of the time they're saying that it's very difficult to find rehearsal places and places to put on shows. Neptune has its own stuff and the Rebecca Cohn has its own things as well, so it's very difficult for them to find their own spaces. Do you know where that is at right now, and have you had any meetings with that group since becoming minister?

 

MR. INCE: I'm aware of the group, I've heard of it, but I have not had meetings to date with any of them or even any discussions around what they're doing. As I've said earlier, we're open and happy to discuss anything that is going to help us define and move forward culture and show the importance of culture. We're willing and open for discussions with all the communities. In order for us to put together a really good culture strategy, we have to engage in conversations with parts of the community as well.

 

MS. ZANN: I know that they've been working on this for some time so I'm sure you'll hear from them at some point. I had actually suggested to them that I thought it would be great to put it in where the new convention centre is going to be. If you could put an art centre in there as well with a rehearsal studio and another place to put on shows would be interesting as well, but I haven't heard anything more about that. Have you heard anything more about the trade centre, if there is going to be any arts and culture part of that?

 

MR. INCE: Not at all.

 

MS. ZANN: I think that's everything I need to know. You're probably ready to move on by now anyway.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN; You have two minutes if you want to use that.

 

MS. ZANN: I'll ask one more quick question then. Arts in schools - I know that the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development has a program, but there's not that much money in it and I know that there are a lot of different artists who would love to be able to go into the schools and perform in schools who would love to bring them into the schools. Do you have any specific program or an appetite for increasing funding or reallocating funds to be able to help pay for professional artists to come in and visit schools in Nova Scotia?

 

MR. INCE: That's not any discussions that we've had currently, but as I said earlier, we're open to having discussions and seeing what we can do. You're talking about an area also where it's the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development, and working with the schools is a separate thing because it's the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development.

 

MS. ZANN: As I said though, they don't have that much money for this and I think it would be very good for both the professional artists in Nova Scotia and for the kids as well.

 

MR. INCE: Some of our funding will cover that, and for me, as an educator and as someone who has worked in the school system, that's one thing that I've always seen over the last, I'd say, 10 to 15 years, the reduction of arts in the school system. I think that in order for us to maintain and keep our young people in there, we have to engage them on many levels, and arts is one area.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: I appreciate everybody taking the opportunity today and I appreciate everybody for showing up and answering the questions. Mr. Ince, I'm going to give you three minutes for a closing statement, see what you've got.

 

MR. INCE: I won't need three minutes. I move that Resolution E2 stand.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

 

The motion is carried.

 

Resolution E2 stands.

 

Thank you.

 

MR. INCE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, colleagues and members.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Everybody go home now.

 

[The committee adjourned at 8:20 p.m.]