HALIFAX, FRIDAY, APRIL 8, 2022

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY

11:57 A.M.

CHAIR

Dave Ritcey

THE CHAIR: Order, please. The Subcommittee of the Whole on Supply will come to order. It’s now 11:57 a.m. The subcommittee is meeting to consider the Estimates for the Department of Natural Resources and Renewables as outlined in Resolution E15.

E15 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $134,886,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Natural Resources and Renewables, pursuant to the Estimate.

THE CHAIR: I will now invite the Minister of Natural Resources and Renewables to make opening remarks, up to one hour. If they wish to introduce their staff, please do.

HON. TORY RUSHTON: Thank you, everyone for joining us this morning. I do want to recognize the fact that staff are here with me, and I want to show appreciation for their time in preparing for today.

I would also like to begin by acknowledging that we are gathering on Mi’kma’ki, traditional territory of the Mi’kmaw people.

I’m pleased to be here to share with you our priorities for 2022-23 in the Department of Natural Resources and Renewables. As we head into this fiscal year, I’m full of optimism. The future of our wonderful province is very bright. Our population is growing, and our economy is strong. We’re emerging from two years of living with a global pandemic more resilient than ever. We have our challenges, of course, but I remain incredibly optimistic about our opportunities.

After the last election, I was honoured that Premier Tim Houston named me as his first Minister of Natural Resources and Renewables. It comprises the former Departments of Lands and Forestry and Energy and Mines.

I feel a strong sense of pride and responsibility in my role. My grandfather, George Henley, was Minister of Lands and Forests under Premier John Hamm. While I’m new to the role of a minister, I have been engaged with the department’s work for many years as Opposition Critic. Now, I humbly sit at the decision‑making table with a mandate to work with the forestry, energy, and mining sectors to ensure we create a sustainable Nova Scotia for our citizens today, and for generations to come.

Through my mandate letter and this budget, it is clear that this government is actively finding solutions to the great challenges of today: climate change, renewable energy, new sustainable ways of supporting our traditional industries, and building a cleaner, greener future for all Nova Scotians. We are doing this with our overriding commitment to sustainable prosperity. It is our firm belief that a healthy economy and a healthy environment go hand in hand and support each other. Everything that I outline in these remarks, and in my answers to your questions today, is based on this commitment and belief.

Our estimated budget, as it has been read, is nearly $135 million. It reflects resources and changes within my department needed to get the job done. You have no doubt noted that this represents a 10-per cent reduction from last year’s budget. However, that should not be interpreted as a lessening of our resolve to do our important work.

[12:00 p.m.]

The decrease is 100 per cent a result of the federal government’s decision to end low-carbon economy funding on March 31^st. There was $21 million for this program in the department’s 2021-22 budget. This multi-year funding agreement with the federal government began in 2018. In total, the province received $56 million through this funding.

It was used to deliver a suite of programs focused on oil-heated homes designed to save energy, reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and create jobs in Nova Scotia. These programs include the Home Energy Assessment program, Green Heat, and SolarHomes, to name a few. I am happy to say that we have invested provincial funding to keep these programs going so Nova Scotians can still be able to benefit from them.

The federal government has just released a new plan for a 40 per cent cut in carbon emissions by 2030. They also tabled a federal budget yesterday. We look forward to learning what the federal plans mean for Nova Scotians and working with the federal government and other partners towards our goals.

Regardless of federal programs, we remain committed to a sustainable future for our province. Nova Scotia blazed the trail with the Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act in 2006, and we continue to be a national leader in the fight against climate change. In the new Environmental Goals and Climate Change Reduction Act, which this government passed in the Fall, we set some of the most ambitious goals in the country - to have 80 per cent of our electricity needs filled by renewable energy by 2030, to achieve a 53 per cent reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by 2030, and to become net zero by 2050.

There isn’t a single silver bullet solution to make this happen; we are not putting all our eggs in one basket. We are looking at all options, pursuing a diverse suite of solutions, and working in ongoing collaboration with many partners to make these goals a reality.

Our shift towards clean renewable energy is a shift away from coal. Just a decade ago, 80 per cent of our electricity came from coal and heavy carbon fuels. By the end of this calendar year, it will be down to about 30 per cent. Over the next two years, we are investing nearly $120 million in programs that reduce emissions and fight climate change. These include our core energy efficiency programs as well as the Green Fund and community solar programs.

We will continue to work with our partners across the Atlantic region on a path to get off coal-generated power. The Maritime Link and the Atlantic Loop are two of many options we are exploring, including wind, solar, tidal, and residuals from sustainable harvested wood, which contribute to jobs and economic opportunities for all Nova Scotians.

As we move towards our goals, I want to be clear that we will protect the ratepayers of Nova Scotia. They deserve clean, affordable, and reliable power. Through our amendments to the Electricity Act and the Public Utilities Act, we are making changes to improve the way electricity is delivered to Nova Scotians.

We are looking at how we move forward with our relationship with Nova Scotia Power, and we will also learn on performance standards that we’ll set through these amendments. In addition, we will be active intervenors in Nova Scotia Power’s general rate application currently before the NSUARB. Our priority is to protect ratepayers as we move toward our green energy future.

I would like to share some more about what we’re doing to reach our clean energy goals. We took a significant step when we launched a request for proposals in February to secure 350 megawatts of electricity through low-cost and innovative wind and solar solutions. When operational, these sustainable solutions will supply 10 per cent of Nova Scotia’s electricity from renewables and reduce our greenhouse gas emissions by more than one million tonnes each year. This is as large a purchase for the electricity system as the Nova Scotia block from the Maritime Link. It, by far, represents the largest potential from one single government action to reduce greenhouse gases.

Wind energy is another renewable energy source we are looking to develop. No one in the Atlantic region has more installed wind energy capacity than Nova Scotia - we currently have 600 megawatts of wind capacity.

Engagement with stakeholders is essential, and I want to note that the Mi’kmaw are leaders in Nova Scotia for wind energy development.

Nova Scotia holds many of the prerequisites for attracting the global offshore wind industry as well. Offshore wind will play a key role in our region’s future energy mix and economic growth. We are putting in place the right conditions now for the future development of these projects.

Tidal energy development is also key for our region. Nova Scotia is a global player in this emerging sector that will result in green technologies, green jobs, a cleaner environment, and a predictable renewable source of electricity. Our statistics are staggering. The Bay of Fundy has the highest tides in the world - they reach as high as five-storey buildings. Twice a day, 160 billion tonnes of seawater flow in and out of the bay - that’s more than the combined flow of the world’s freshwater rivers. We know that if developers can handle the tides in the Bay of Fundy, they can handle the tides anywhere in the world.

It’s an incredible tidal and marine resource in Nova Scotia, and we have a highly skilled workforce to help us. We are a testing ground for the world’s leading tidal technologies and home to some of the world’s top marine researchers.

FORCE is one of the international test centres exploring how tidal energy can contribute to decarbonization goals and clean energy targets. Over 300 companies have already found work in the Bay of Fundy emerging tidal-energy sector, and total investments are approaching $200 million.

On the day we started this session of the Legislature, I was proud to introduce legislation to improve the Marine Renewable-energy Act. The amendments will improve the demonstration permit program and bring greater clarity about the Act’s licensing system. They reflect industry feedback and four years of experience administering these programs.

Beyond these large-scale projects, Nova Scotians are embracing energy efficiency and sustainable solutions in their own homes and businesses. Each year, we invest more than $30 million in our core energy efficiency programs - HomeWarming, Affordable Multifamily Housing Program, Home Energy Assessments, Green Heat, and Small Business Energy Solutions program. These programs create jobs, help families save money, and reduce emissions through energy efficiency. These investments are helping in the fight against climate change while also reducing our personal energy costs. It’s a win-win for Nova Scotians and the environment.

Our investments have real impacts. For example, they have improved 2,500 Mi’kmaw homes and 11,500 public housing units, helped Nova Scotians save more than $180 million a year on their energy bills, helped us avoid more than one million tonnes of carbon emissions every year, and helped more than 21,000 low-income Nova Scotians get free home assessments and energy efficiency upgrades since 2007.

Nova Scotia is a leader in energy efficiency programs to support these efforts. Our programs have reduced electricity demand by 12 per cent since 2008 and account for one million tonnes of greenhouse gas reductions annually. We do a great deal of work with incredibly dedicated partners in Efficiency Nova Scotia.

Solar electricity is more prominent now in people’s homes than ever. The SolarHomes program helps residents get solar panels with the help of a rebate of up to $3,000. Currently, there are over 4,000 homes with solar panels, and we expect more will be installed this coming year. We are currently consulting with communities and stakeholders on future solar programs and hope to have more to share on that in the near future. When we started the SolarHomes program, there were 13 approved installers in the province; today there are 73. That’s hundreds of new jobs, and many of them in rural communities. Let me be clear. We are paving the way to ensure Nova Scotians can freely invest in solar power to contribute to our sustainable future and reduce their energy bills.

Our amendments to the Electricity Act will ensure Nova Scotia Power does not impede their efforts. We are guaranteeing Nova Scotians the full right to net metering without being charged for it.

In partnership with the Assembly of Nova Scotia’s Mi’kmaw Chiefs, we are delivering the Mi’kmaw Home Energy Efficiency Project. It provides deep energy retrofits for homes across all 13 First Nation communities in Nova Scotia while also providing training for community members to complete this work.

HomeWarming and the Affordable Multifamily Housing Program provide financial support for energy retrofits for low-income households and affordable housing. They help lift Nova Scotians out of energy poverty while also reducing provincial greenhouse gas emissions.

The province also provides support for off-oil programming, helping homeowners reduce their energy consumption and switch from oil heating to cleaner and more efficient alternatives. Heating oil accounts for 50 per cent of Nova Scotia’s space-heating energy, the highest in Canada, and we want to change that.

The Home Energy Assessment program provides up to $5,000 in incentives for home energy retrofits. We support the transition to high-performance building codes through programs such as the advanced New Home Construction program offered through Efficiency Nova Scotia. They provide additional incentives for home builders to build beyond the current code.

All of these programs support the local green workforce, including heat pump installers, lighting specialists, solar PV installers, and builders. They’re currently employing more than 2,500 people in well-paying jobs, many in rural Nova Scotia.

Buildings contribute 12 per cent of the total greenhouse gas emissions in the province. Energy efficiency and fuel switching play a key role in reducing this impact. That’s why we offer start-up costs for municipalities that offer property-assessed clean energy financing for homeowners to do energy retrofits on their home. That’s why we committed to adopting the national 2030 net-zero energy ready model building code. It requires higher energy performance standards for new construction.

We also co-founded and developed the Energy Benchmarking Pilot Program. It improves building efficiency by allowing building owners to better track and understand energy consumption.

In addition, the new Green Choice program will provide clean renewable energy to the federal and provincial governments, and other large-scale customers like universities, interested in achieving 100-per cent renewable electricity goals. We will continue to work to strengthen energy efficiency program offerings with our partners and communities to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from the building sector.

We are also taking green energy on the road. Electric vehicles, or EVs, can help us to achieve our sustainable prosperity goals of having a cleaner economy that creates jobs, supports a healthy environment, and benefits all Nova Scotians. We want to make EVs an option for even more Nova Scotians. Not only are EVs great for the environment, they can also help Nova Scotians save as much as $2,000 per year in fuel and maintenance costs. So far, we have supported the adoption of more than 500 new electric vehicles in our province and over 1,600 new electric bikes.

Infrastructure is key to helping people make the switch to EVs. In January, we announced $500,000 to install more electric vehicle charging stations across Nova Scotia. In March, the Department of Environment and Climate Change announced $1 million over two years for the Green Fund to provide incentives for installing smart charging stations in new and existing condominiums and apartments.

On Budget Day, my colleague, the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board, highlighted that another $2 million in my department’s budget in 2022-23 will be dedicated to expanding electric vehicle charging stations across Nova Scotia. We will also continue incentive programs like the one delivered by the Clean Foundation for new and used electric vehicles and electric assist bikes. The program provides rebates ranging from $500 for e-bikes and as much as $3,000 per vehicle. We are also committed to working with the auto and gas service industries so that 30 per cent of their sales are zero-emission vehicles by 2030.

I would be remiss if I did not note that many of these renewable energy technologies that are helping us along the path towards our green energy goals are dependent on critical minerals. Critical minerals such as lithium, rare earth elements, tin, and zinc, are essential raw materials for technologies such as wind turbines, solar panels, and electric vehicles. Nova Scotia has many of the critical minerals among our natural resources, and this sector has a role to play as a responsible and secure supplier to the green energy sector.

[12:15 p.m.]

As we take all of these important steps to adopt clean energy and reduce greenhouse gas emissions, we are also working in parallel to protect the national environment that makes Nova Scotia such a special place to live, and to carefully manage the natural resources that are sustained, important industries in our economy.

From our rugged coastline to the depths of our forests, we offer provincial parks, wilderness areas, and nature reserves that give Nova Scotians a place to connect with nature. They offer opportunities for recreation, nature tourism, and research, and support our mental and physical health. They contribute to a healthy environment, a healthy population, a healthy economy, and social well-being. They help reduce biodiversity loss and contribute to important provincial, national, and international conservation efforts. They conserve wildlife habitat and mean essential ecosystems which can increase resistance, resilience, and reduce vulnerability against climate change.

We are committed to creating more protected areas in the province. Twenty per cent of Nova Scotia’s total land and water mass protected by 2030 is what we are committed to. We work closely on this goal with our colleagues at the Department of Environment and Climate Change and with the Mi’kmaw on Indigenous protected and conserved areas.

Our provincial parks give Nova Scotians an opportunity to get outside and enjoy the physical and mental health benefits of being in nature. They’re also an important part of the tourism industry, attracting visitors to explore our beautiful province and contribute to our economy.

Everyone should be able to enjoy these natural treasures. That’s why the department continues to make infrastructure upgrades to provincial parks, beaches, and campgrounds, to make them more accessible to more people. In the past year, this work included roll-out beach mats and adaptive equipment as well as upgrades to facilities such as comfort stations, washrooms, picnic shelters, and more. We also made washrooms gender neutral at numerous parks across the province.

This year, we plan to invest $1 million in the TCA funding to continue this accessibility work and do upgrades like lifeguard facilities, water systems, and other things that help our parks run smoothly. We’re also advancing the multi-year redevelopment at Lawrencetown and plan to replace the main building this year.

Our caveat about work plans for provincial parks is always that we still need to assess them each Spring to determine if anything different is required, depending on how the Winter went. We need to remain flexible.

As we advance our work to protect wildlife, promote biodiversity, and sustainably manage our natural resources, we are welcoming back some key professionals who help us meet this mandate. Conservation officers were moved from the former Department of Lands and Forestry in 2015 to join a broader team of enforcement officials at what was then the Department of Environment. While they continue to work closely with their staff, we feel they are more suited to reporting directly through my department. I am pleased to welcome our 59 conservation officers back to the Department of Natural Resources and Renewables on April 1^st. I note this change because it accounts for the increase in staff FTEs in my department - an additional $5.8 million in our budget.

Our natural environment supports an abundance of wildlife, and we as government take our commitment to protecting wildlife seriously. The people in my department are dedicated to excellence in wildlife management. Teams of biologists and technicians are part of the on-the-ground work that is done to help manage wildlife issues every day.

In Cape Breton, my department staff and the Mi’kmaw are working collaboratively to manage the moose population. Across the province, I’m pleased to report that my staff have made considerable progress in renewing the species at risk program. They put a mainland moose recovery plan in place and completed recovery plans for all remaining species that fell solely under provincial responsibility. They have also reviewed and updated all other existing plans.

As you are aware, I introduced amendments to the Wildlife Act on the first day of this sitting to address the growing problem stemming from feeding wildlife. Many people love seeing wildlife in their yards or think feeding is necessary for survival, particularly in the Winter months. However, feeding draws wildlife into populated areas where the risk of damage, injury, or death is greater.

The ability to develop regulation authority around inappropriate feeding under the Wildlife Act will help us manage and reduce these instances of human-wildlife conflict. We look forward to consulting with municipalities and other stakeholders to inform the development of these regulations. This effort will help reduce the incidence of orphaned or injured animals such as bear cubs, therefore it is well-aligned with our commitment to explore options for rehabilitation of injured or orphaned bear cubs, which we continue to work on.

Our natural environment also supports forestry as a way of life for thousands of Nova Scotians. This industry provides us with wood products we use every day and creates important economic activity, especially in our rural economies and communities. Our government has committed to conserving biodiversity, nurturing healthy forests, and supporting a sustainable forestry industry through innovative and better forest management practices. These changes are long overdue. We will make ecological forestry a success story for Nova Scotia.

Foresters are already very focused on sustainability. Generation after generation, they have made their livelihoods off the land.

I have great respect for these people - skilled workers, entrepreneurs, and contractors through the supply chain. They are contributing to our province’s economy, creating jobs, and acting as stewards of our province’s natural resources. They are important partners as our province moves toward a cleaner, greener future.

Nova Scotians are also passionate about the state of our forests, which are valued and enjoyed in so many ways. I truly believe we all want the same outcomes. We are delivering on our commitments by implementing recommendations in the forest practices review and adapting the triad model of ecological forestry on Crown land. The triad model divides our land into three zones that work together to balance the diverse interests on our Crown lands. There are conservation zones, high-production forestry zones, and mixed forest or nature zones. It’s a completely new approach for Nova Scotia, and the shift from where we are today to the new approach is large and complex. It is also a top priority for me and my department. It’s difficult to put an exact dollar figure on the work because everyone in the department whose job touches on forestry, biodiversity, or conservation has a role to play in this activity, working on implementing the recommendations of the Lahey review. We are moving full steam ahead.

We are working closely with the sector and stakeholders and doing work on many fronts as quickly as we can to make this significant transition happen. There is work happening across all three legs of the triad. Key pieces are now done, and implementation on Crown land has started. We have completed the Nova Scotia Silvicultural Guide for the Ecological Matrix. It replaces the old Nova Scotia’s Forest Management Guide and outlines silviculture and harvest methods within the matrix zone of Acadian forests on Crown lands.

The triad model prioritizes biodiversity through low-impact forestry and reduces clear-cutting in areas where the guide will be applied. We have started training department staff and industry on how to understand the new guide and how it will be applied. We should have a timeline for full implementation soon. Until then, interim retention guides continue to apply for harvest approvals. We recently announced $1.7 million from last year’s budget for a number of organizations to help them implement ecological forestry and will invest a similar amount this year, $1.8 million.

The final report on high-production forestry was released last July. It outlines criteria that will be used to identify, rank, and select high-production forestry zones on Crown land. There are several streams of work under way right now that support this leg of the triad. Next steps for my department will be to identify the exact portion of Crown lands that will be dedicated to high-production forestry. I appreciate the work of the department staff to get us to this point. There is still a way to go.

We recently completed consultation on the Old Forest Policy. We’re incorporating feedback and will release the updated policy as soon as it is ready, likely this Summer. We’re moving ahead to protect and conserve more Crown land and hope to have new announcements in the coming months. There have been and will continue to be opportunities for sector and public input along the way. I’ll watch the industry and Nova Scotians for all continued engagement as we chart a new path forward. We are making fundamental changes to our province, and it’s important to do it right. We’ll continue researching, consulting, and reaching out to professionals and academics for guidance and expertise. It does take time, but we all know that the sustainability of our natural resources is top of mind for all Nova Scotians. We want to make that progress every day.

I want to note a couple of pilot projects that were recommended in the Lahey report. One is the Mi’kmaw Forestry Initiative. It started in 2019 and gives the Mi’kmaq forest planning and management responsibilities on about 30,000 hectares of Crown land. It creates an opportunity for jobs, training, and Mi’kmaw business in silviculture and harvest.

Another pilot is heating public buildings with locally sourced wood chips. In Phase 1, nine buildings at six sites were converted from oil to wood chips from sustainable harvesting. Wood heating projects are good for the environment and good for the economy. Replacing imported fuel oil with locally sourced wood chips will increase the market for under-utilized and low-quality wood fibre and keep the money in our rural economies. It’s another win-win for Nova Scotia. I’m excited by the opportunities I see to expand this model with more sites in Phase 2.

Likewise, I am excited about all the work of my department, our government, and our many partners to make Nova Scotia sustainable now and for generations to come. While there are hurdles to clear along the way, there is also a buzz of positive engagement around this province. Entrepreneurs, forward-thinking businesses, researchers, innovators, policy makers, and individual Nova Scotians are all focused on the same goals: get off coal, get off fossil fuels, green our grid, green our homes and vehicles, and green our industries, jobs, and economy. People are engaged. We are moving in all the right directions together, and my government is putting things in place to ensure we get there faster.

We all have a duty to leave this world in better shape for our children and grandchildren. That’s exactly what we are doing.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I look forward to answering questions.

THE CHAIR: Thank you, Minister. According to the practice that has developed in this Legislature, the Opposition caucuses take turns asking questions for approximately one hour each. During a caucus’s turn, the members within a caucus may take turns examining the minister on the Estimates resolution. Only the minister may answer questions. Caucuses are also expected to share time fairly with the Independent member.

To begin the examination, I now recognize the Official Opposition. The honourable member for Annapolis.

CARMAN KERR: Thank you to the minister and all the staff in the room who have joined today. I want to compliment the minister on the painting that he produced this week in his spare time. It looks great.

I made a number of notes and have some questions already organized. The minister mentioned in his opening remarks regarding offshore wind. I think the words mentioned were putting it into the right conditions to leverage our offshore wind industry. Could you elaborate on that? My understanding is that the Atlantic Loop would have to be secured before we look at offshore wind. Could the minister elaborate on offshore wind and any plans in place?

TORY RUSHTON: Not necessarily - they’re not necessarily connected. We can still study and research the possibility of developing offshore wind. The two aren’t linked together. We can do one without the other, so to speak.

As we research it, we understand too that the cost of offshore wind is certainly going to have to come down. There still needs to be a look at it. We have a great resource in offshore wind. Our department staff certainly want to engage in any conversation that’s going to take place. The two are not necessarily linked together.

[12:30 p.m.]

CARMAN KERR: I’ll switch over to EVs, also mentioned in the opening address. It’s good to see rebates offered for charging infrastructure and working with partners to increase that EV adoption. What is the minister’s or the department’s plan on including this from a rural perspective?

TORY RUSHTON: This question is a great opportunity to recognize the fact that there’s a significant amount of money in the budget that was just tabled for EVs. Part of the process is that we want to reach out to all rural areas and have these charging aspects put into rural areas. We certainly can increase the EVs in rural Nova Scotia, and I appreciate the question. It gives an opportunity for all rural MLAs to share the story. There’s budget money that’s being allotted. Let’s have the conversations out in our rural communities and ensure that our constituents are engaged in this, and there’s interest in getting an EV charger in the rural community. Our department would certainly love to have that conversation to make sure that they’re rolled out in all parts of Nova Scotia.

CARMAN KERR: I’m happy to have that conversation on behalf of rural Nova Scotia. I guess the segue would be, what specifically can we do together to engage rural Nova Scotia on EV adoption? There’s a bit of resistance there. There might be a consumer confidence question. I wonder if the minister could elaborate on what specifically he and I, and the department and I, and other MLAs, could do to increase that adoption.

TORY RUSHTON: This is going to be a great opportunity for all MLAs, not necessarily just rural. Programs such as the Next Ride program - MLAs can talk to their areas, such as local farmers’ markets or community fairs, that are going to be taking place as the province is opening up again, and things are starting to happen. I had the opportunity with the Minister of Environment and Climate Change to experience some of the electric vehicles and did a bit of a drive with them. Next Ride are more than willing to come to community events and speak to those local residents. I would certainly be happy to share that with all members of the House, how to get in touch with Next Ride, and possibly table that information on Monday when we’re back in the House.

CARMAN KERR: Can I book the minister for a Next Ride visit to Annapolis before, let’s say, Canada Day, July 1^st? Let’s lock it in.

TORY RUSHTON: Look, I appreciate the collaboration with the member. We’ll see what we can do. We’ll certainly see what we can do. It’s a great experience. Talking with a couple of the staff from Next Ride just prior to the House opening, I know we learned a lot. There’s a lot of common questions that are out in rural Nova Scotia especially. It’s a great opportunity for us to expose the fact that there is provincial money out there helping to get charging units out in rural Nova Scotia. Next Ride gives an example of how electric vehicles certainly do and can be a part of living in rural Nova Scotia.

CARMAN KERR: The business plan for DNRR mentions the department working with transit agencies to electrify public transportation. I know that’s something going on within HRM. Could the minister give some more detail on, does that extend to Cape Breton Island, the Annapolis Valley, throughout rural Nova Scotia?

TORY RUSHTON: The program for transit is certainly being extended throughout Nova Scotia. Currently, we’re actually working with CBRM, Kings Transit Authority, and Town of Yarmouth Transit. It’s certainly being spread through all Nova Scotia so everybody can have the benefit.

CARMAN KERR: That’s good to hear, Kings Transit Authority and the Valley and Cape Breton as well. We hope to grow that program.

I’ll switch to ecological forestry. The minister mentioned it in opening remarks, and I’m glad. I think the wording used was “this will be a success story.” I hope it will be. Regarding the SGEM, the Nova Scotia Silvicultural Guide for the Ecological Matrix, my understanding is that the department must rely on IT staffing complement, maybe an IT upgrade to software - could the minister or staff, and both, expand on that and what that includes?

TORY RUSHTON: This is going to be a ground-breaking move to transition our forestry sector. There needs to be some heavy lifting in the training on the ground, which has already started. This is what implementation looks like. As far as the IT sector of it, those changes are already starting to take place within the department so we can log that data and continue the march forward, if you will.

CARMAN KERR: I apologize to the minister if I didn’t clearly understand, but does that mean that it has started, that development of IT software upgrades and that development or that hiring of IT staff? Are we marching towards that eventually?

TORY RUSHTON: That process has started. There’s no additional IT staff who have been included in this, but the programming and such is already under way.

CARMAN KERR: Again, on that same theme - we all do a bit of reading after we spend some time here. I read at some point or learned at some point that a new software system may assess 12 parameters on pre-treatments and harvests versus what the capability is now - is that something the minister could comment on?

TORY RUSHTON: There are changes within that IT system, and new things such as soil conditions and nutrients are being incorporated into that IT program.

CARMAN KERR: I appreciate soils being assessed. I wonder, could the minister expand on what other parameters would be part of that 12?

TORY RUSHTON: There are updates on the whole assessment. Rather that having a time stamp as we go into the vegetation in the area and the soil conditions, it’s going to be a live time stamp rather than just a time stamp in history, so to speak. It’s going to be modern technology once we get everything incorporated into that IT.

CARMAN KERR: My understanding is that part of a pre-treatment assessment on harvest has also changed - including or incorporating a nutrient budget model. I wonder, could the minister maybe expand on what that includes?

TORY RUSHTON: Part of that process means that we’re actually going to take live samples of the soil on the ground and assess the nutrients in that soil and compare the nutrients from other samples. Basically, at the end of the day, we’re not going to take any more fibre off that area than what the soil indicates, and fibre indicates, are sustainable for the future.

CARMAN KERR: I’ll switch to the Old Forest Policy. The province is updating that policy and I believe, in November, your department released the draft of the Old Forest Policy for Nova Scotia. It talks about public consultation. The current policy I think has been in place for 10 years or more. I just wonder if there can be an update on that public engagement piece for that Old Forest Policy.

TORY RUSHTON: On the Old Forest Policy, there was certainly extensive consultation that has been done already. The department is in the middle of gathering all that information into one form. I guess stay tuned. There’s going to be a response in late Spring or probably early Summer. Everybody in the province will certainly get their eyes on that.

[12:45 p.m.]

CARMAN KERR: Late Spring or early Summer. From there, can we expect that a full report will be delivered at that time?

TORY RUSHTON: I apologize to the member if I misled. That’s what will be released in late Spring or early Summer, the full report.

CARMAN KERR: Switching to more about the SGEM - sorry, on advance work on protected areas, looking for a bit of an update on where that process is in conjunction with the Minister of Environment and Climate Change.

TORY RUSHTON: In regard to the protected areas that we have spoken about, there’s a lot of collaboration going on between the department here at NRR and the Department of Environment and Climate Change. We work very closely together on the protected aspect of Crown lands. First and foremost, we’re going to be working on the parks and protected areas list that currently exists. As my colleague indicated yesterday, we’re working on that diligently and hope to have something moving forward to our other colleagues for decision‑making shortly.

CARMAN KERR: Where I’m going with this is I’m getting dozens of constituents asking to be part of that process - for protected areas, for identifying areas in our constituency and beyond. I’m just looking for more detail on how my constituents and Nova Scotians can be involved in that protected areas plan.

TORY RUSHTON: Anything that’s currently on that parks and protected areas list, there has been extensive consultation on that already. That’s where it stands with being on that list. If there were any indications of changes of any lands that are on that list, that government wishes to make some changes on that, it will go back out to consultation. It will be posted on the website. Anything that’s not on the list right now - to move forward with different lands that aren’t on that list, there will be full public consultation through the process, and the proper procedures will be followed that are set out by the policy.

CARMAN KERR: On the third leg of the triad, high-production forestry, the minister touched on it in opening remarks. The purpose of the High Production Forestry in Nova Scotia: Phase 1 Final Report, which I looked through is to share information related to the creation of this zone. It talks about criteria for identifying areas, initially ranking potential areas and so forth. Could the minister provide any indication, or any list, and I guess, ranking of these identified high-production areas in the province?

TORY RUSHTON: When you’re looking at high-production forestry, we have to look at all three sides of it. In the initial scan of the province, if you will, there have been some locations that have been sited in at the initial phase, for the researchers to have a look at. Now there has to be a whole land scan of the whole properties that make that list. That work is ongoing right now. We should be able to share that with Nova Scotians at some point towards the mid to end of this calendar year.

CARMAN KERR: Could the minister share with an MLA what those areas might be before that time?

TORY RUSHTON: I think that would be a bit premature even to come to my desk for decision‑making, as staff are certainly involved heavily with doing this research. Like I said in my opening statements, we have one shot to get this right, and I want to make sure that does get right. It would be a bit premature to even have those recommendations sitting on my desk yet.

CARMAN KERR: I guess where I’m going with that last question is there’s a number of people that the minister and I have discussed in my area, my constituency of Annapolis. They’re experienced, they know a lot about this file, and they feel like they have a lot to offer the department in acknowledging or identifying either protected areas or otherwise, on other legs of the triad. I’m just looking to go back to those constituents and other Nova Scotians to let them know how they can be involved in helping the department identify those areas. I guess that’s more of a comment than a question, maybe?

I know how much area has been earmarked for protected zones in the province. There’s mention of high-production forestry being the smallest area. Could the minister let me know how large an area is earmarked for high production, what square kilometre radius?

TORY RUSHTON: They’re very much the same as the locations and areas - that percentage of what the high-production forestry would be in the province or the square area. It’s a bit early. It’s still not at my desk yet to make some decisions, so it would be a bit early to be sharing that as well.

CARMAN KERR: I just want to mention - the minister and I have talked a number of times about Beals Brook; it’s an area in Annapolis County. My understanding is the department has signed off on this harvest. It’s a variable retention cut, and it’s now with WestFor Management Inc. But there are a number of people and constituents on the ground, I think even today, looking at different discoveries they have made with lichens, all kinds of different endangered lichens. I just want to know, has the department gathered information as recently as today on that lichen discovery, and has that changed the department’s view on that piece being cut or not?

TORY RUSHTON: I certainly appreciate conversations about that with the member opposite. This harvest plan was approved before I sat in the chair. When we found out about it, we certainly did another review. We welcome the public bringing information forward, such as lichens. Each time we get that we do another review. Our prescriptions are changed in and around the information that is shared with the public. That’s part of the reason why harvest plans go up on the webpage - so the public can have a comment and a means to communicate support or concerns for certain harvest lots. I encourage people to still get out there and engage with our department to have these conversations.

CARMAN KERR: I certainly appreciate the department being nimble and flexible based on new information. With this lichen discovery in this particular block and maybe future blocks, my understanding is that there’s a 100-metre buffer from these discoveries on where they can harvest or not. Has the department considered expanding that 100-metre radius for future cuts, for future harvests?

TORY RUSHTON: Look, our department staff certainly take guidance from the biologists on how to best manoeuvre our practices. Every time that something such as the lichens does come up, there are special management procedures and practices that are implemented, that are reviewed by the experts, the biologists at the table, the technicians at the table. We’ll base the decisions of the department on the science that we have at hand, and the input that we have from the people who are out in the field, such as constituents who may run into something and report it. At the end of the day, we’re taking the lead from the biologists and the experts that we have at our disposal.

CARMAN KERR: I’ll move on from likin’ the lichen. I’ll go on to road building - just a couple of easy snappers, maybe. I’m wondering if Nova Scotians pay for all roads on Crown land. For example, WestFor Management in south west Nova Scotia - do taxpayers pay for that road building, or is it cost-shared?

TORY RUSHTON: Any road that would fall on Crown land is actually the property of the Crown. These roads are multi-use. It may be a contractor or company that builds it, but it’s multi-use. It could be for the industry that you may see utilizing it today, but there are other uses such as recreational, research, fire protection. In wildfire season, roads do need to be throughout different parts of our Crown lands to ensure that we can protect them from wildfire as well. They’re multi-use, but they do belong to the Crown.

[1:00 p.m.]

CARMAN KERR: I take that as a yes, they’re paid for by Nova Scotians, and maintained by taxpayers as well. This is the million-dollar question I have been asked a number of times over the years: What’s the stumpage fee paid on Crown land?

TORY RUSHTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. (Inaudible) we have here in Nova Scotia that our industry respects tremendously, and they have this success because of a great deal of it, and that’s the softwood lumber deal that we have here in Nova Scotia that is special to Nova Scotia, if you will. I guess the question is really proprietary in a sense that because of those international trade deals, we’re not at liberty to discuss that, actually.

CARMAN KERR: It’s good to have the rationale behind that.

A bit of a local question: There are a few young entrepreneurs who want to get involved more in silviculture throughout Annapolis County, Digby County, and beyond. According to them and working with - I don’t mean to pick on WestFor, because I have had good conversations with the management there to try to understand their operation. According to these entrepreneurs, they’re not able to bid on contracts either in Annapolis County or beyond. The reasons given are that their equipment is too small, they’re too small of an operation. I can’t help but think that they may be, at times, better suited to do more ecologically friendly work - smaller equipment, less of an impact, less disturbance of certain areas. I wonder if the department or the minister has any influence over helping these smaller operators bid and be part of harvesting on Crown land.

TORY RUSHTON: I appreciate this question because where we’ll be going when we do light-touch forestry - as part of the business sector, the government doesn’t get down in the roots and the weeds. It’s a competitive market out there. As we do move forward with the triad and ecological approach, we do encourage all businesses to take part in a bidding process that would take place. This is part of what the light-touch forestry is going to look like.

CARMAN KERR: I appreciate the response. It didn’t really answer my question. I’m trying to look for an opportunity to advocate and lobby on behalf of the small business owners in Annapolis and throughout the province. Where can I, or any other MLA in the room, go or can we meet with the minister? Where can we submit those names of small business owners who want to be more involved moving forward with ecological forestry?

TORY RUSHTON: It’s certainly exciting to hear that there are people interested in getting into the sector. I guess my mainstay and focus should be that these entrepreneurs should be in regular contact with groups like WestFor. Even more importantly, reach out to Forest Nova Scotia and the associations that are sitting there and developed to encourage and foster growth within that industry that you’re speaking of.

CARMAN KERR: I will do that. Thank you.

Regarding the Harvest Plans Map Viewer, I have been on there a number of times. It feels like you need a Ph.D. to even understand it. I don’t have a Ph.D., so maybe that’s the problem. People who I know who do have Ph.D.s and beyond don’t seem to find that viewer user-friendly. We have tried to make sense of it a number of times. In one of the documents, I did see mention that there will be a bit of an upgrade on that platform. Is that true? Has the minister or the department heard that that Harvest Plans Map Viewer isn’t user friendly?

TORY RUSHTON: The viewer has been in existence for some time. It does go through regular routine updates, but I appreciate the comments and concerns that the member is bringing before us today. We encourage feedback regularly. We do get feedback regularly. We certainly do want to hear on a regular basis. If the member opposite has concerns or suggestions about how that can be improved, staff are more than willing to have that conversation on how we can improve that process.

CARMAN KERR: I will bring those recommendations forward.

I want to switch gears to the Atlantic Loop. I think I asked this in Question Period, but we didn’t have enough time. Could the minister break down that $2-billion ask from the federal government for the Atlantic Loop project? Could he itemize that, or break that down, what is included in that request?

TORY RUSHTON: As we move forward to 2030, and we’re moving ourselves away from the coal production of energy, we’re looking at any options federally, what programming is out there, how do the feds come in and assist in getting off the coal regime, and having greener energy. Look, our government is very committed. By 2030, we’re going to have 80 per cent renewable energy. We’re steadfast to move forward on that. We’re going to have a big influx in the next couple of years with the RFP with wind that we moved to. Any other consideration for green energy, we’re certainly going to be looking at the feds. We have regular contact with our federal counterparts, and we’re confident that by 2030 we’re going to get there with different means - the full establishment of the power coming from the Maritime Link, what concept does the Atlantic Loop have to do with that. More importantly, the whole focus, at the end of the day, is the ratepayers of Nova Scotia. Our government has been very committed that we’re going to protect that aspect of our energy change or transition through energy, and how Nova Scotians receive electricity.

CARMAN KERR: I’ll try one more time. I wonder from the minister, is there a chance - I’m glad the minister is in touch with the federal government on a regular basis. I’m just looking for more detail on what the request is, what is being asked, the breakdown in that $2 billion. I’ll ask one more time.

TORY RUSHTON: This is certainly a fluid situation. As we evolve through the transition of how we’re receiving electricity, in what forms are generating that electricity - look, 2030 is not a long time away. It’s not that many budgets away. We are having those conversations. The number can be very fluid between now and then. I think the biggest comments that I have received from Nova Scotians since being here on September 1^st, they certainly appreciate what our province has achieved to date with greening our grid. They certainly appreciate the commitment that government has to protect the ratepayers of Nova Scotia. As we move on to the newer greener source, reliable sources of stabilizing our electricity rate, stabilizing the grid, there’s an appreciation from Nova Scotians and the industrial users that not just this current government, but previous governments too - we have been committed for a few years to greening our grid. We’re carrying that torch very strongly, and we’re very proud of that.

CARMAN KERR: Speaking about protecting ratepayers and protecting Nova Scotians, could the minister comment on the Decarbonization Deferral Account? I can’t find much information on that. It’s in the NSUARB application. I am one of the formal intervenors on behalf of our party. I just wonder if the minister or his department could connect how that account may protect ratepayers going forward.

[1:15 p.m.]

TORY RUSHTON: Unfortunately, the Decarbonization Deferral Account doesn’t actually sit within our department. That’s a question and a concern that would have to be brought up with the NSUARB hearing with the general rate application. I appreciate the question, but I do apologize. There’s nothing I can share from staff to the member.

CARMAN KERR: I will skip over a few questions then. I’ll move on to the Maritime Link. As the minister knows, we have seen a delay in the two coal plant closures due to lack of energy coming from Muskrat Falls or the Maritime Link. Can the minister share a timeline for future delays? Does he have that information?

TORY RUSHTON: It has been in the news in the last few weeks, but currently right now we are receiving contracted supply from that link. As far as breakdowns and such, they do take place; that’s out of our scope of the department. That would be on the Newfoundland side of things, so to speak. We wouldn’t have any updated information, or inside information if you will, as to any further or future stoppages of the supply of that power.

CARMAN KERR: Apparently, we have 10 minutes left, so I’m going to hand it over to my colleague for Kings South. I will see the minister later on.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Kings South.

HON. KEITH IRVING: Good afternoon, Minister, and thank you for taking our questions here today. I just wanted to come back to protected areas. I’ve noticed that your government has been speaking about 12.8 per cent of the land being protected. I tried to review the protected areas on the site. In actual fact, are we not somewhere up to - I’m trying to remember the number - 13.7 per cent that has been protected to the extent of an Order in Council commitment to Nova Scotians, a decision by Cabinet? We protected 61 areas, parks, and protected areas in, probably, March or April last year, which brought us up to around 13.7 per cent. There is additional work, obviously, left to do with surveys and studies, et cetera. Do you have that number of where we actually are in terms of Cabinet approval of protected areas?

TORY RUSHTON: I welcome the member. To the question, statutorily protected right now it’s about 12.8 per cent. We do recognize that the list does exist. I know the previous government, which the member was involved with, did have that list that was having work done on it. As of right now, protected statutorily is about 12.8 per cent.

KEITH IRVING: I want to go to the commitment for 20 per cent. In our platform, we made a commitment to 17 per cent, which in all honesty, I felt was very, very optimistic. Obviously, you outbid us to go to 20 per cent. Minister, do you anticipate any challenges to get to 20 per cent given that the Crown land portion of the province is 29 per cent?

TORY RUSHTON: I guess the quick answer to the member opposite is, yes, there are going to be challenges. There’s no doubt about it. Some of the ways that we’re going to get there is through private lands and having conversations with private landowners, who certainly want to see their lands protected. That’s through working with NGOs, as the member would be familiar with. There are other effective conservation measures as well, the OECMs that we’re going to be having conversations with, for sure. It is an aggressive commitment, but as you probably heard from other colleagues on the floor and I know you have heard in Question Period, we’re very committed to having that 20 per cent protection for our province.

KEITH IRVING: Given that very public commitment of 20 per cent in a province that has 29 per cent Crown land and your mandate to oversee forestry in the triad model and high-production forestry and the use of Crown land, which is where the forestry industry and the Lahey report is being implemented, have you received any concerns from the forestry industry with respect to the challenge that you have over 20 per cent protection?

TORY RUSHTON: I have heard from forestry. I have heard from many different stakeholders about the 20 per cent protection rate. It’s about balance within the province of Nova Scotia. We’ve been very adamant that we can have protected areas. We can have recreational areas. We can have an economy that’s growing off our Crown lands here in Nova Scotia and throughout all of Nova Scotia. It’s about balance, and it’s about the ability to co-exist and still have protected areas to ensure that our forests and our lands are here for generations to come.

KEITH IRVING: I certainly understand the need for balance, particularly in your role with issues of protected areas and the forestry industry. Do you have a target between now and the next election in 2025? How far are we going to be towards 20 per cent?

TORY RUSHTON: I think the member understands and I certainly know he appreciates the continued work that goes on between the department here and the Department of Environment and Climate Change. I know the member appreciates that. There’s ongoing work, but we haven’t set any mid-term targets. We set the ultimate goal at 20 per cent by 2030. We have not set any mid-term goals. What I would say is that at the end of the day it is an aggressive target. I appreciate that you recognize that. It’s full steam ahead. We’re going to work towards this.

KEITH IRVING: Let’s just quickly go to another question on EVs. I really appreciate you continuing with the rebates for the purchasing of EVs. I’m glad to hear there are 500 purchased. Really, I think the hurdle now is access to EVs and supply chain challenges on top of mandates by B.C. and Ontario - and Quebec may be in there as well - or I got Ontario and Quebec mixed up. That is where the EVs are going because we don’t have an EV mandate. I believe that was in your platform. Do you have any intention of bringing in an EV mandate?

THE CHAIR: Order. The time has expired for the first hour of the Official Opposition.

It’s now time for the NDP caucus. The honourable member for Dartmouth South.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Good afternoon, Minister, and thank you in advance to you and your staff for being available to answer questions today. I listened with interest over the last hour to my colleagues and so I will build on some of what they asked and also probably diverge a little bit in my own questioning.

I want to start with some budget lines. My first question is: In the view of the department, and taking inflation into account, does this budget for your department represent an increase or decrease from last year’s budget?

TORY RUSHTON: I would like to welcome the member to the questioning part of this Estimates. It’s important to note that it wasn’t a cut from the government. There was a sort of a stop on a federal program, the Low Carbon Economy Fund. There was a loss there of $21 million. With the increase in the $2-million budget for electric vehicle chargers, that would actually give us an increase in what we receive in our budget right now.

[1:30 p.m.]

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Just to be clear, a lot of what we see in any provincial government is flow-through funding from the feds. It’s difficult to break out every piece of that. If we’re just looking at numbers, taking into account inflation, if we don’t count that $21 million as a loss, is it accurate to say that the budget is slightly smaller this year?

TORY RUSHTON: I guess the quick answer to the member opposite is sending out budgets, we don’t anticipate our budget for inflation.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I’ll take that as an elegantly worded yes, but I acknowledge the member’s point that that funding is not a part of this year’s budget. A couple of follow-up questions - we heard that the folks from the Department of Environment and Climate Change, those assessors, I think they’re called (Interruption) The conservation officers, yes, are coming back. We also see a net loss of, I think, nine FTEs, is that right? Can you comment on the change in staffing complement in the department this year?

TORY RUSHTON: We did have the addition of the 59 officers, as the member recognized. There was a transition of reallocating nine FTEs during the transition, the merger of the two departments that would come together, the old Department of Lands and Forestry and Department of Energy and Mines. Nine of those FTEs were put into other departments or newly created departments.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I understand there was re-organization, but I wasn’t aware that - I mean, I know that the department wasn’t welcoming those officers back in. I didn’t hear about the department losing jurisdiction or reducing its mandate in any way. Can you tell me where those FTEs went, and did they take their work with them?

TORY RUSHTON: To give just a quick breakdown for the member, two of the FTEs went to the Land Titles Initiative at the Office of Equity and Anti-Racism Initiatives. Five left the department through planned reduction in FTEs when the departments merged, and there were two assistants, one for the deputy minister and one for the minister, that would have been in one of the departments. There’s certainly no need to have two assistants for each, so those two were allocated to the newly developed departments.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: It sounds like there was a reduction, but I want to move on.

People, including myself, are watching for an increase in spending to support the Climate Change Plan for Clean Growth that’s coming in the Spring. I mentioned to the minister today that the daffodils are coming, so we look forward to seeing it.

Is there any increase in funding in your department to support that plan?
 

TORY RUSHTON: Yes, $57 million has been allocated in the different programs, and $50 million of that will be to efficiency for low-income Nova Scotians. The breakdown of that would be for energy poverty, equity, and off-oil initiatives – the other $7 million will be going to energy efficiency in businesses.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Maybe when you answer the next question, you can just let me know where that is? We were looking for it under the line item Clean Growth and Climate Change, but that line item seems to be actually drastically reduced, at least from the Estimate.

This is one of the largest budget line items and also the least detailed, so if it’s in there, I’d love to know, and if the minister is able to provide a breakdown of that line item, that would be really helpful. It doesn’t have to be now, it could be later, but we’d love to understand what’s nested in there and of course why the funding dropped.

TORY RUSHTON: To the member, the reduction was solely allocated because of the loss of a Low Carbon Economy Fund from the feds. The forecast for the $57 million is actually on Page 17.3 of the Budget Estimates. If the member has any questions, I’d be glad to have that conversation again as well, but the forecast line item is on that page.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I note that what was known as petroleum resources, those resources that we’ve been told by the global consensus of science, need to stay in the ground, now falls under subsurface energy development, which is a really nice euphemism, and a description reads: Subsurface energy responsibilities include petroleum resources, sustainable resources, and ensuring resource stewardship.

Can the minister define what resources fall under this division for development and, in particular, what sustainable resources are being referred to here?

TORY RUSHTON: Very quickly, for the member opposite, some of what that would encapsulate is the carbon capture utilization, geothermal energy, green hydrogen initiatives, any green fuel initiatives that we may be looking at, or green ammonia, just to name a few.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I definitely look forward to hearing more about those initiatives as they develop.

I want to move on to parks and protected areas and go back to that 20 per cent goal that my colleagues raised earlier. The minister mentioned that there is no interim target. Of course, we know that there is no interim target in EGCCRA and have raised that issue. But I would suggest that is a challenge. If we leave it all until 2030, if, as the minister acknowledged in this line of questioning, it is a challenge, given the available amount of land we have and how much of it is allocated to Crown land, is there at least some milestone, like some loose milestone, that the department is working towards? There must be a plan, 2030 is actually not that far away.

Can the minister illuminate any of the thinking of how we get from here to there, in a few years’ time?

[1:45 p.m.]

TORY RUSHTON: I did recognize the fact that it is going to be a challenge, but I also recognize the fact that we’re committed to having this challenge.

I do want to point out that in one of the mandate letters, it does say that there has to be a plan for how we’re going to achieve that, and that plan has to be produced by 2023 on how we’re going to achieve it. At the end of the day, 2030 was the target. We’ve never indicated that we were going to wait until 2030 to have this in place.

Working in collaboration with other colleagues in other departments, it is ongoing. As we stated in the House a couple of times so far this session, there is going to be news coming out in the short-term.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Thanks to the minister for that answer. I’m really glad that he brought up the plan.

We know that - I assume that - we’re working off the 2013 Our Parks and Protected Areas: A Plan for Nova Scotia. There are 160 remaining areas there. Our assumption is that the department will need to spend more on surveys and consultations. Is there money reflected on work, on getting there, of that nature, in this budget?

TORY RUSHTON: Something that we have done in this budget is we’ve incorporated a term position to actively work on that list from the Our Parks and Protected Areas: A Plan for Nova Scotia so that we can have a concentrated effort on that existing list as well.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: A term position. That’s great. That’s a staffing resource, but does that term position include all of the actual funding that would be needed to properly implement surveys, consultations, the public consultation process - anything like that?

TORY RUSHTON: A chunk of that would actually just fall under the normal operating budget for the run of the year.

The other portion of that has come out of the Sustainable Communities Challenge Fund - the Department of Environment and Climate Change was successfully granted that money. Part of the funding to achieve the work on that list would come from that as well.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: It looks like there are reductions in that general area, so we’ll be interested to see. I look forward to the mysterious news coming soon. We’ll always be happy to see more protected areas.

Moving on, my colleague had asked a question in the House about Hike Nova Scotia’s request to ensure that people can use more provincial parks in the winter. Is there any increase in the budget that reflects the need to increase staffing levels to make these parks more accessible to year-round hikers and trail users?

TORY RUSHTON: I certainly appreciate any question to do with the parks in Nova Scotia. It’s a great resource that we have in our province, and they are here for everybody to experience. Part of the challenge that we have is the staff who do take care of our parks are seasonal staff. The amenities that are designed in and around our parks are not designed for the Winter months, so to speak.

Some of the parks do have the gates closed for the Winter months but we certainly always encourage any users to still utilize the facilities. I know at the park in my area the gates do get closed, because of staffing issues, but there is still cross-country skiing that does take place and there’s still out walking your pets or experiencing the wilderness of it.

At the end of the day the amenities weren’t designed for the Winter months and the staffing levels with seasonal workers do create an issue in and around that.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: So that’s my question. Knowing that they weren’t really designed for use in the Winter months, but that people want to use them in that way and that we want to encourage, I think - we’re beyond the days of ParticipACTION but I like to think that it lives on in spirit. If we want people to be active and physically fit and enjoying our natural resources, is there any contemplation of expanding the resource such that that could be done safely, or is it the position of the department that at this time there’s not a consideration of that?

TORY RUSHTON: Certainly the participation within our parks is very important to me. Is it off the table? No, it’s never off the table; we’re always interested in how we can expand and elaborate on our services. The noted comments and the questions from Question Period last week, it’s certainly something that I take to heart. As a department and as the minister, we’re always looking at how we can expand and elaborate on our services and make the experience better.

I do want to highlight that the gates may be closed but the parks are still there and available and staff that are available do keep an eye on them when they can. They certainly also encourage people to be in and utilize them and, if there are any issues, they can certainly help report those issues back to the local depots. Perhaps the planning can certainly happen if there are issues in and around that, so when Springtime does open up and the seasonal staff get back, they can have a quick and readily accessible experience so Nova Scotians can use the full fulfilment of the parks.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I guess one last little piece on parks here is that it looks like the line for parks outreach and service delivery has been reduced - does that mean that the budget for provincial parks has, in fact, been reduced and, if that’s the case, can the minister tell me by how much?

TORY RUSHTON: Yes, that’s one of the exchanges of one of the FTEs and the costs associated. That had to do with the trails component, it actually got shifted over to Public Works.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I want to shift to forestry and my colleague canvassed that pretty extensively in the last hour, but I’ll ask a few more questions. I think the other day in Question Period the minister referenced the Lahey report, An Independent Review of Forest Practices in Nova Scotia as, I think, a generational project or something like that, but in fact a lot of those recommendations are quite specific and quite time bound.

We know there was recently an evaluation report issued that in fact was scathing - I think that would not be too sharp a word to use - about progress done to date on those recommendations. That evaluation, to my knowledge, never received an official or detailed response from the department.

I’m wondering if the minister here could say a few words about the department’s response to that report - what actions have been taken in direct response to that rebuke - I would say - of the actions so far, and whether this budget reflects any specific changes requested as a result of that evaluation.

TORY RUSHTON: I appreciate the question. I think the member opposite knows how important this is to me, as minister, but even before that how important it was as critic and just as a Nova Scotian for the province to implement the Lahey review and ecological forestry.

I visited many woodlots throughout the whole province and many of those private woodlot owners are already meeting these demands. I was very adamant when I sat in the chair of the ministry that we had to get it right on our own lands. That’s something I’m very adamant to do.

The comments in the House the other day about the generational change, those were actual comments that Professor Lahey has made in different speeches about the initial review.

In short, our response to the review is that we’re getting to work on it. I’ve been adamant ever since I sat in the chair on the very first day when the SGEM guides were sitting here waiting to be signed, we got right to work on implementing those changes.

[2:00 p.m.]

I do want to recognize the fact that the review was on the initial previous years and the review was actually done even before I took the seat of the ministry. There was a lot of hard work done by staff on collecting data and getting those resources out. We’re staying focused on a focused vision on how we’re going to get there and there are many things - I think you recognized the fact that you heard me speak with one of our other colleagues earlier during the line of questioning, and where we’re at with implementing the high production forestry side of that triad.

We’ve had many discussions in the last 20 minutes about the protected area of the side of that triad and the recreational benefits that we have in our province. There are many aspects of how we’re going to get there in the triad model, but implementation is taking place right now. There are boots on the ground, training taking place. We’re in the midst of changing over all the harvest approvals to meet those SGEM guidelines.

What I would say in short, to shorten it up to allow further questions, if you will, is we recognize the review from Lahey and we are getting to work. It is a big task at hand, but it’s a task that can be achieved. We have a great staff in the department that want to see this focus move forward, but we also have many, a great deal of Nova Scotians, who are on different sides of the conversation as to why they want to see the implementation of this. We’re committed to staying steadfast to make sure that this does happen in a timely manner.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I thank the minister for that answer and appreciate the efforts to be concise; it’s helpful. I’m a little bit struck by the notion that the first leg of that triad is the high production leg. I recognize the value of the forestry sector, no question. The minister can correct if I’m misinterpreting that, but my follow-up question is - and we’ve been asking this question, and it has been called for by many - about whether the department has a willingness to actually remove some Crown lands from consideration for harvesting at all, if they are good candidates for the conservation of the triad. That is the one, in lots of ways, that is the most crucial to meeting our climate commitments, and also to really jumpstarting, I would say, our just transition. We know there is a transition going on, at the face of that sector and of the energy sector and that the resource sector is going to change. We want that change to include really good jobs for people, but we aim to respect our climate commitments.

My question is, in terms of the conservation leg of the triad, as that is being determined, is there a sense that there are areas that will be protected in an interim way until that final determination is made?

TORY RUSHTON: I do want to clarify something, if the member thought that high-production forestry is being highlighted, all sides of the triad are equally important to Nova Scotians and to the Department of Natural Resources and Renewables.

Managed forests are just as important to the whole triad model as protected areas or soft-touch forestry, or what have you. I guess to put a halt on any production or anything, what are focused on, on the protected side of things, where there already are forest lands that are on that list, we’re moving forward and working hard with our colleagues over at the Department of Environment and Climate Change, with that list from 2013 as well.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I know that my colleague asked about road building on Crown lands, but I want to ask about road building generally. I’m wondering if the minister can confirm for me that road building for woodlot owners is distributed through Forest Nova Scotia - is that still the case?

TORY RUSHTON: Yes, is the quick answer. Forest Nova Scotia does get an allocation each year. This funding has been going on for a very long time. It is there to assist private woodlot owners in road construction on their property. It’s a program that we rely on Forest Nova Scotia to assist our government in implementing.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Just so I understand - are private woodlot owners required to be members of Forest Nova Scotia in order to receive that funding, and to pay a membership fee to Forest Nova Scotia to receive government funding?

TORY RUSHTON: I can’t comment on a membership fee for Forest Nova Scotia; I’m not 100 per cent sure. That would be a question for Forest Nova Scotia, but you do have to be a member to receive the funding.

There have been other funding aspects that private woodlot owners who weren’t necessarily a member of Forest Nova Scotia had to navigate through. One finished up last year and that would be how a non-member would be able to get assistance for road building.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: With respect, I would suggest that it is a matter for the government to determine whether private woodlot owners need to, in fact, pay a third party in order to access government funding. That seems fishy, I guess, is the technical term.

This is something that we’ve heard about, so I would just leave that for the department to look into - I don’t need to comment on that.

The way this kind of came to my attention was the extraordinarily expensive ad campaign that Forest Nova Scotia launched last year to lobby against the government’s then-proposed Biodiversity Act. I’m wondering if the department can let us know if any government funds were used to lobby against the government’s effort to protect biodiversity in the province.

TORY RUSHTON: What I can comment on that is that the funding that Forest Nova Scotia does allocate from government is controlled and followed through with, and checks and balances are put in place there by audits through the Auditor General.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I wonder if the minister could expand a little bit on those checks and balances? Is there an annual audit? Are those audits publicly available? Do they account for all the funding? Have they all been clean?

TORY RUSHTON: There are annual audits. Right now, they’re not available through the public ask, but there was a recent Auditor General’s audit that was done on this. We’d certainly be happy to grab a hold of that, and I’ll make sure that the member opposite gets that.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Continuing with biodiversity, under the heading Conserving Wildlife, Species at Risk and Biodiversity, the minister’s business plan refers to work to address the outcomes of a recent judicial review, recommendations of the Auditor General and the Lahey report.

Is there an increase in funding here to support what obviously needs to be higher ambitions on meeting legal obligations to species at risk?

TORY RUSHTON: I thank the member for the question. Yes, as a follow-up to the judicial review, the completed recovery plan for species at risk and all species that were named there that were under the jurisdiction of the province, the recovery plans have been updated and currently we have dedicated positions that are already assigned to address these situations and work on this.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Can the minister tell me how many species at risk in Nova Scotia still require recovery plans or identification of core habitat?

[2:15 p.m.]

TORY RUSHTON: The quick answer is none. The process and plans for all species have been taken care of, and the implementation of these recovery plans are what’s being activated, and with those dedicated staff that I spoke about.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Thank you to the minister, that’s good news. Yesterday in Question Period we asked around the harvest around Minamkeak Lake - I hope I am pronouncing that right - and the Atlantic whitefish. The minister said that it would go through the usual process. I am wondering how the precautionary principle comes into play in these instances. Does the usual process provide for serious issues around endangered species of this nature?

TORY RUSHTON: Thank you for the question. Through the Integrated Resource Management process, all these aspects are actually looked at during the whole process. The portion that you see online for public comment is just one of the steps in the process.

Throughout this plan everything is looked at - species at risk, waterways, nearby protected areas, and such. There is a plan in the whole process in how protected areas or endangered species come into play, whether a plot of land is approved or not allowed.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Okay, we’ll cross our fingers on the precautionary principle, but the words sound good. I suspect we’ll hear more about this from my colleague. The question has been asked in Question Period, we’ve written to the minister. I wonder if the minister can clarify here what is happening at Beals Brook? Is that harvest going ahead? What’s happening?

TORY RUSHTON: I appreciate the question and I do want to reiterate, this is a plan that after I sat in the seat I did ask for a secondary review of what was taking place down there. The public were engaged, they took concerns and reported them. They were acted upon. We get our direction from biologists and technicians, and their special management practices that are incorporated into the harvest plan now.

This is something that is not any different than any other place in the province. As I said earlier, it is something that we encourage the public that if something is found, we encourage those conversations to take place with their local depots or reporting it through the online portion - of how things do get achieved. This is an example. Something was found, it was reported, and the special management practices that were approved by biologists were incorporated into this.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: So the harvest is going ahead?

TORY RUSHTON: With the changes and the alterations in the original plan; there were changes made to the original approval. With the special management practices that have been recognized there can be a harvest that goes ahead.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I thank the minister for that answer. Moving on, we’ve asked before about offshore energy and Morocco, and we noted actually that our status as a mega sponsor has changed on the website for the 7^th Conjugate Margins Conference in Morocco and, rather than a mega sponsor, we’re now the lead scientific partner.

I’m wondering if the minister could comment on that change. Is that a difference in dollars, in terms of our sponsorship? Are we sending a bunch of scientists? What does that mean? What is the department spending to send people to the conference?

TORY RUSHTON: Quickly, the sponsorship of this conference or program was actually done a couple of budgets ago. I think it was on hold because of COVID-19 and such. There will be one of our scientists go as it is a research conference and, out of the sponsorship, my understanding is that that fee for the sponsorship also includes the one participant.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Why the change from mega sponsor to lead scientific partner - what’s the price tag and where is it in the budget?

TORY RUSHTON: We’d have to go back into the previous budgets to find out what the cost was. The change in the name or the sponsorship title, that wasn’t initiated from our department, it must have been the conference that actually changed the title of that.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: That’s really interesting. So there was no communication from our government for a major change in status on the billing of a conference? I’ll take your answer as it stands, but I will just comment that that seems odd.

It sounds like the minister is saying that the expense would have come out of a previous budget and there are no expenses in this budget related to this conference. If that’s not accurate, could the minister tell us what the expenses are and where we would see them?

TORY RUSHTON: What may come out of this budget is incidentals that would be incurred by any official who would travel to any conference or outside of the province.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Okay, I’m aware that my time is running short. I’ll pick this up in the next hour. Could the minister quickly tell me what the status of the Offshore Growth Strategy is - if we don’t finish, we can come back to it.

THE CHAIR: The honourable Minister of Natural Resources and Renewables with a minute and a half to answer.

TORY RUSHTON: I’ll be very quick. I believe the member is looking at the status of that. That project will successfully wrap up in April of 2023.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Thank you and thank you to the minister and his staff for those answers. I’ll turn it over to my colleagues in the Liberal caucus and we’ll see you again in an hour.

THE CHAIR: We’re going to take a 7-minute break. We’re going to start again at 2:35 p.m. Thank you, minister.

[2:27 p.m. The subcommittee recessed.]

[2:35 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

THE CHAIR: Order. I now recognize the Official Opposition.

KEITH IRVING: Do we have the minister online? There he is. Thank you, Minister. I’ll just have two or three more questions here and then turn it back to my colleague.

I want to ask a little bit about Plan B. We talked about that in the House a bit, the idea of what the government is thinking if we do not get, in the very near term, some kind of commitment from the federal government with respect to the Atlantic Loop. You indicated in the House that things like green hydrogen and tidal and batteries and wind were your Plan B, or you were considering as elements of a Plan B.

It caught my attention, I guess, because the Canadian Institute for Climate Choices, which is really a think tank on the options that we have to meet our climate targets in 2030 and 2050, have done some analysis. They’re pretty smart folks. I had the opportunity to present on the progress that Nova Scotia had made, on a webinar on behalf of Nova Scotia.

They, in their analysis, categorized options to meet the greenhouse gas targets to safe bets and wild cards or long shots. Particularly for the targets that governments across the world and Canada and our province are making for 2030 - relying on wild cards, which are in essence technologies that are not fully developed and may need a decade or two to come to fruition, for governments to rely on these would be very high-risk, considering that we’re needing to make decisions eight years from 2030.

What was in the list as a wild card, and something that the technology was not really there for us to rely upon, was green hydrogen. Tidal wasn’t even mentioned in their analysis. They did talk about the safe bets: wind, as you suggested, electric vehicles, et cetera.

Are you realistically looking at green hydrogen and tidal as being elements of Plan B?

TORY RUSHTON: When I did speak in the House about Plan B, Plan C, and Plan D, these were all conversations that I had indicated and options that we had been discussing. Green hydrogen, for instance, just the industry in and around the European market in the last 12 months has changed drastically with what’s going on worldwide. We’re hearing from some of the stakeholders in the energy sector in the European market that green hydrogen is an example that is going to be something that’s going to be taking off quicker than the eight-year realm.

For me to sit in my chair, I certainly want to have conversations about every aspect or every element that we can grab hold of and explore that technology. Never did I say that we were going to grab hold of one horse in the race sort of thing, and stay with that horse.

We need to make sure that as a government, as a province, and as a country for that matter, we keep everything at the disposal of our hands and stay on top of every element. That’s what is taking place with the conversations around Plan B, so to speak.

I certainly appreciate the member’s comments. About maybe two or three years ago, certain aspects of tidal energy or green hydrogen might have been a different aspect, but the global market, even in the last two months, has certainly changed things of what the world is looking at and conversations that we’re having with other stakeholders. Green hydrogen is certainly one of the top markers of discussions worldwide.

KEITH IRVING: Fair enough, Minister. I appreciate that response and certainly support any exploration of realistic options. The information that I had, as of about a year ago, was that these were perhaps a bit far off. I think given the need to make some decisions within the year, as you know, setting up energy systems is a long-term proposition and eight years is becoming very tight for our 2030 objectives.

Minister, we have in legislation that we are going to be off coal. If we don’t have the Atlantic Loop or a realistic Plan B, C, or D - or let me put it this way: is the Plan D under consideration to change - I think it would be - the remaining two coal-fired boilers, plants, units, to natural gas? In my opinion, that would be a disappointment. Is it possible that that might be our Plan D, if Plans A, B, and C don’t work out? Is that on the table?

TORY RUSHTON: Certainly, we’ve had this comment back and forth a couple of times today, that eight years is not very far away. Is it down deep into this government that that’s one of the plans? No. Is gas going to be part of that transition to get off coal? It very well could be.

I would counterbalance that comment, too, that why couldn’t green hydrogen be part of that transition period as well?

KEITH IRVING: Let’s hope green hydrogen becomes the Plan C and gas is the Plan D. I’m sure you’re as committed as much as anyone else that gas, hopefully, is not the solution for us to meet our legislative target for being off coal.

I want to come back to the question I asked that you were about to respond to before I was cut off: the challenge right now for access to electric vehicles. That certainly over the next number of years, I think, will be compounded because of vehicle mandates in B.C., and I believe it’s Ontario and maybe Quebec, that require automotive dealers to have a certain percentage of EV cars on the lot for consumers. I believe it was in your mandate. I just wanted confirmation that you are looking at EV mandates for Nova Scotia.

[2:45 p.m.]

TORY RUSHTON: Yes, thank you for bringing this back up. I had a great answer set up for you about an hour ago, but I didn’t get a chance to give it to you.

In all seriousness, this is a worldwide issue, at least a North American issue, with the supply and demand of electric vehicles. As the government, we’re going to stay committed to the resources that we’ve put in, and trust Nova Scotians to make those decisions as we move even the transportation sector into reducing greenhouse gases for our province and for our country, for that matter, and our world.

We’re having those conversations with the suppliers, as well, as part of the government's initiative to ensure that Nova Scotians have the ability to have access to those electric vehicles when they do come back onto the market, recognizing the supply and demand issue that we do face here in North America right now.

KEITH IRVING: I think what I heard there is that you are having conversations, which is in your mandate letter, to work with the auto dealership industry. But I think what I heard is that mandates aren’t on the table.

TORY RUSHTON: Certainly those conversations are taking place, and I want to highlight that, but at the present time, just being six or eight months into this chair – eight months, whatever the time frame is – there’s certainly not a named mandate about electric vehicles.

I just want to make sure that the member does go away and has the trust that this government is certainly having those conversations and making sure that we’re in a place to make accessible purchase of electric vehicles to Nova Scotians, when the supply does come onto that market. It is important, so even without that mandate that’s written in there, we’re certainly very active on this file.

KEITH IRVING: Again, I appreciate the work of you and your staff.

What I learned from looking at an EV in Ontario, for instance – a Volkswagen that’s coming on the market soon - Ontario is not allowed to sell out-of-province, at least in the Volkswagen world. I assume that our rebates would not count if we purchased vehicles out-of-province, but maybe that’s something that needs to be looked at to help Nova Scotians get access to vehicles.

I believe when we made the announcement of the vehicle rebates on February 24, 2021, we put $9 million into that program. Given the numbers that you’ve outlined, it sounds like we’ve spent about $2.2 million. I guess I would just encourage or certainly want to support you in finding ways for Nova Scotians to get more access to electric vehicles.

This should be a quick snapper. I was just trying to understand where the Green Fund expenditures are in the budget. I don’t think I saw them under the Department of Environment and Climate Change, I’m not sure if they’re buried somewhere here in the Department of Natural Resources and Renewables budget.

Does the budget recognize both the revenue of the cap and trade program in the upcoming year and the expenditures of the green funds that are generated?

TORY RUSHTON: As the member said, “a quick snapper”. That’s a special purpose fund, it does fall under the Department of Environment and Climate Change that is allocated under public accounts.

KEITH IRVING: Okay, so you’re suggesting it’s in the Department of Environment and Climate Change. Unfortunately, I didn’t have an opportunity to ask the minister about that.

Minister, I want to thank you for answering my questions today. I really appreciated our conversation and the concise, accurate responses. It was very helpful, and I wish you all the best in the work ahead.

I’ll turn it over to my colleague, the member for Annapolis.

CARMAN KERR: I’ll pick up where I left off yesterday with Environment Estimates and ask the appropriate minister on behalf of my buddy and colleague in Cape Breton. He’s looking for the rebates on e-bikes to be increased from 500 watts to 750 watts, and I wonder if the minister will consider that.

TORY RUSHTON: I certainly appreciate the question. Yesterday while I was sitting in the Red Room, the comment from my colleague, the Minister of Environment and Climate Change, about our haircuts, but nevertheless the program is actually administered from an outside third party, EVAssist Nova Scotia. The criteria were established to qualify for the rebate, but the limitations actually are part and parcel of the legislation that’s at the table from Public Works for the Motor Vehicle Act, with the 32 kilometres per hour. At the present time, we’re not actually entertaining that idea.

CARMAN KERR: Just a few more local questions. I have a Crown land development in Annapolis, the Annapolis Royal golf course. It’s shared with the member for Digby-Annapolis. There are, I don’t want to say hundreds but definitely dozens of constituents on both sides who work and golf at this area. They’re trying to expand onto Crown land. Their application has been years, so I’m definitely not suggesting this is a partisan thing - the previous government had it for awhile and so does this government.

My question to the minister - with so much opportunity to hire local contractors and local workers and grow the workforce in Annapolis, can he comment on how close that application process is to being complete?

TORY RUSHTON: I really can’t get into specifics about the file, but I encourage the member opposite and myself to maybe have a conversation in the next couple of weeks. I can dig into the file with staff and bring any response back to the member so he can go back to his constituents.

CARMAN KERR: Thank you to the minister for that. I look forward to discussing that further.

My second local question would be: There’s a group of community leaders and very experienced constituents in the world of marine renewable energy, tidal energy. Their group, called the Annapolis Investments in Rural Opportunity, have combined forces with the Annapolis Climate & Ecological Research Centre Coalition. Their proposition is to take the current tidal project in Annapolis Royal and turn it into a world-class research facility, with meeting rooms, a place where marine renewable technology can be developed, et cetera. I wonder if the minister has heard of this project and if he could comment further.

TORY RUSHTON: To be very honest with the member opposite, I don’t know a great deal of detail about the group he’s speaking of, but I would certainly love to have a conversation with the member, bring some information back, and I could certainly have staff look at that.

CARMAN KERR: Thank you, Minister, that’s great. The Annapolis Royal town council - Annapolis Royal, my hometown, 20 per cent of their general revenues come from the tidal project that may be decommissioned here in the near future. They’re trying to make up a big gap of that 20 per cent, and then this group is trying to repurpose that facility.

It’s a $20-million site and we’ve got a commercial wharf nearby. We’ve got the world’s highest tides nearby. We’ve got grocery stores and everything else that would lend itself to using that facility for something greater than what it currently is. I will bring that information to the minister.

Another local concern of mine is flooding and it’s not unique to Annapolis. I’ve got several constituents in Annapolis, and I’ve heard from others throughout the province that their properties and others are flooding. It looks like it’s due to harvest areas that are near headwaters of certain brooks.

I know that where I grew up, Round Hill/Moschelle, people who have lived there for 50, 60, 70 years have never seen this. I know it’s a global trend, a trend around the world, but I just wonder what the department - do they assess for harvest being too close or a certain proximity to headwaters when they make their plans for harvest?

TORY RUSHTON: Certainly, this has been an issue that the whole province has seen at different times. It is a global warming issue, a climate change issue that we are seeing more floods in our province than ever before.

As it pertains to the forestry practices of the province and our Crown lands, there are certainly setbacks from all waterways and streams.

CARMAN KERR: As I mentioned, according to the map viewer, it currently looks like several harvests that are near these headwaters, coming down the South Mountain, going under Highway 101, under Highway 201, and then into the Annapolis River. I’m just hoping that maybe the minister and his department could review any of those harvests in Annapolis County and throughout the province that may be close to these headwaters.

[3:00 p.m.]

TORY RUSHTON: Mr. Chair, certainly this is a conversation and here’s an opportunity that we spoke about earlier where the community and the general public can actually be engaged in the approvals and the process. It is looked at through the map viewers and such for staff.

If there are some concerns that the general public do have about harvests on the map being a bit close to waterways, they can comment on the process or they can reach out to the local departments as well. They can go in and have a conversation about specifics. We really encourage that interaction between our public and the local offices.

CARMAN KERR: As he can appreciate, a number of people will visit the local office but also want to talk to their MLA as well. That’s what brings me here today.

I’ll switch gears a bit around Northern Pulp. I just wonder from the minister - is there any update on the mediation efforts with Northern Pulp?

TORY RUSHTON: I can be pretty quick on this one. That file doesn’t sit within the Department of Natural Resources and Renewables. It’s actually sitting with the Department of Justice.

CARMAN KERR: Thank you, minister. Has the department met with Friends of a New Northern Pulp on their business proposal?

TORY RUSHTON: Mr. Chair, no, staff have not met with the group, the Friends of a New Northern Pulp. I’m sure the member is aware that they have been travelling around the province and speaking to MLAs on all sides of the House.

CARMAN KERR: Thank you, minister. Just switching up to mining. Atlantic Gold has produced more than $750 million worth of gold, I believe, in Moose River since 2017. As far as I can see, there are no corporate taxes paid to Nova Scotia or Canada - is this standard practice that our government wouldn’t collect tax from a mining company or this sort of company?

TORY RUSHTON: Just a quick glance here, we don’t see where there’s any trail, but I would suggest that the member would get a line of questions for the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board. I’m not sure if he’s going to be up in Estimates, but certainly reach out. I’m sure the minister would be very energetic to have the conversation and elaborate on how that whole system does work.

CARMAN KERR: That’s a fair response. I will reach out to the Minister of Finance. He is not on Estimates, but maybe at another time I can ask him that question, along with others.

I think the federal government recently added money to their budget regarding the mining industry along EV development. Is the government looking to fund the mining industry, should there be deposits of lithium, zinc, anything that may lead to us contributing to the EV sector?

TORY RUSHTON: Not just about EVs, it’s about any green energy or green application that we can look at. We’re certainly interested. It’s a resource in Nova Scotia, we’d have to research it. We know that we sit on some of these minerals that are needed for green technology, but we have to do it in a sustainable manner that is safe for the environment. Nova Scotia certainly does have the ability to play a role in promoting this.

CARMAN KERR: I appreciate the minister’s response. Constituents are telling me that there’s no gold in them hills but there’s lithium in Yarmouth County. I’m just letting the minister know, if he hasn’t heard already, there seems to be quite a bit of that resource in southwestern Nova Scotia.

Switching to hunting, the minister and I have talked about this a little bit. In the last two years, for good reason, there have been delays in hunting courses being offered, and certain staffing and resource challenges. I wonder if the minister could comment - are courses up and running at full capacity?

TORY RUSHTON: Certainly we have had a couple of conversations about the hunter training and recognize the fact that there was some backlog, due to COVID-19 issues. I would certainly want to update the member as most up-to-date as we can, to see if there still is that backlog.

I’d be very pleased to get that information to the member as soon as we can get our hands on it from staff. I’ll make sure that he does get the detailed update, and if we are in a backlog situation, when can we expect to be up to date. If we’re not in a backlog situation, then we’re back on par.

CARMAN KERR: Reading through the minister’s mandate letter, on Page 2, I think it’s the ninth bullet down from the top of the page, it mentions, “offer rebates, during the first year of our government, of up to 50 percent of the installation cost to service providers on the install of one Electric Vehicle charging station.” My question to the minister is: Who are these providers?

TORY RUSHTON: Just quickly, some of those providers are service stations, gas stations. Typically, people stop to fuel up, they’ll be there. Grocery stores, anywhere that somebody could actually park a vehicle and have an interest in being part of this program.

CARMAN KERR: A supplementary to that is, beyond - which I understood to be fuel stations as well, but is there any opportunity - what’s the criteria for a new entrepreneur or someone who may want to get into that offering to be considered as part of that program, if they’re beyond a grocery store, beyond a gas station but they’ve got the parking and the other infrastructure to do that?

TORY RUSHTON: I guess in quick form to the member opposite, part of that program is still in the final stages of being developed. Something that the member can go back out and share with his colleagues and community is that as a government, but more importantly, as a department, if there’s somebody out there interested in taking on part of this, we want to hear from them soon, as soon as possible. I encourage the member to share contacts for our department. We would love to have those conversations with any interested party.

CARMAN KERR: We’re going to employ everyone in Annapolis County if we keep up with this rate, so this is great news.

Further down, bullet point No. 12 suggests exploring preferential electricity rates for onshore aquaculture. I’m excited about this one. We’ve got a local entrepreneur, Hamilton’s Fish Farm. They’re an onshore aquaculture business. I think the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture visited their location months ago.

My question on behalf of them and others that are considering onshore aquaculture is: Has this exploratory work begun? If so, could you please update us on where that’s at.

TORY RUSHTON: These onshore fish farms, if you will, for aquaculture, it’s a great boost for the local economy. I know that back home in Advocate we have a huge resource in a fish farm there. Part of what is in that mandate letter that you are referring to is still partially in development. We are working with the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture and his department to further these discussions and the program.

CARMAN KERR: I’m looking forward to more information to take back to these business owners.

[3:15 p.m.]

Further down - I don’t know the bullet number - second from the bottom, on page 2, the Minister of Natural Resources and Renewables will work with the Minister of Economic Development as they convene discussions with the province’s major industry leaders - agriculture, fishing, forestry, anything that affects rural Nova Scotia. They will determine what steps they can take to make more environmentally conscious progress.

Can the minister talk about what steps have been taken to date?

TORY RUSHTON: I can give a relatively new update. We’ve had conversations with the Department of Economic Development as recently as this week, the same as different departments. A colleague at the Department of Environment and Climate Change works regularly with the Department of Economic Development as well.

Conversations would entail how the two departments can work as we roll out the process in ecological forestry, and how the two departments are going to be intertwined and work together with different sectors and stakeholders in the development of renewable energy.

We just recently talked about mining, and the member mentioned about the hills down towards Yarmouth way that could be full of those minerals. Those are conversations that our department is having with the Department of Economic Development - how we can roll these out all over Nova Scotia and benefit the economy, along with the resources that lie under our department.

CARMAN KERR: I guess my final question, before I hand it over to my colleague in the NDP - on the next page, page 3, it mentions that in conjunction with the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, they will develop a full inventory of lands owned and identify areas that could be used for housing. We are eight months in. As everyone at this table knows, we’re getting daily requests and pleas for help to build more affordable housing, find more affordable housing.

I hired a student to just spend their few hours looking for affordable housing. That’s probably one of the partnerships that I’m focused mostly on right now. How is that work going between the minister and the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing on creating this inventory of Crown lands or other lands that could be used for affordable housing?

TORY RUSHTON: This is certainly a very hot topic in our province right now. We recognize the fact and I certainly understand and respect the fact that members on the other side of the floor recognize this fact too. There is an issue with affordable housing all over Nova Scotia. When I was elected in 2018, it wasn’t really an issue in Cumberland County, but in recent years it’s been one of the main phone calls that I get.

What I can share with the member is that it’s not just our department that is having conversations with the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing, it’s many departments that are responsible for land. It’s a regular conversation that many of the Cabinet Ministers are having on a regular basis, along with staff from different departments, about what lands are available that can be part of that development portion for housing and still recognizing the needs of each department to still meet its mandate with the lands that they are responsible for. I guess, in short, the conversations are taking place and steps are being taken to see what lands can be acquired or transferred over as the need be.

CARMAN KERR: With almost 350,000 kms on my poor Toyota, I’ve seen a lot of these locations and if I can help in any way to identify some of these key spots, I’m happy to help - not just on that file, but on any issue. If I can help locally, I’m happy to. Thank you and thanks to everyone for being here.

THE CHAIR: The time now is 3:22 p.m.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Thank you and hello again to the minister. I think I’ll start by just picking up where we left off.

We were talking about the offshore. I had asked about the Offshore Growth Strategy, and I think the minister said it was wrapping up. I guess I wonder - is there funding in this budget, or is there a line that the minister could point to, for the promotion of offshore oil and gas exploration?

TORY RUSHTON: Mr. Chair, I’m just looking through the line items, and there is nothing new in the budget line items.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: The minister’s business plan refers to onshore geoscience research initiatives to support the circular economic opportunities of exploration and development in the mineral, petroleum, and energy sectors. I’m reading because I don’t understand what that means, so I guess my question to the minister is: Could he define circular opportunities for the petroleum sector?

TORY RUSHTON: Mr. Chair, it’s not necessarily about petroleum that we’re specific about there. But geothermal would fall under that category, and carbon capture and storage would fall under that category and, as we’re looking at the abandoned mines, how can we capture some of the tailings and clean that up, as well, through that whole process.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: But are any of those directly related to the petroleum sector? Forgive my ignorance, but carbon capture storage, cleaning abandoned mines - I’m just trying to figure out how that relates to the petroleum sector.

TORY RUSHTON: Nothing directly related to the petroleum sector at this time.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: The Georges Bank moratorium is set to expire in less than eight months. We talked about that last session. I’m wondering, now that some time has passed, if the minister can tell us when he and his federal counterparts will be introducing legislation to permanently protect Georges Bank.

TORY RUSHTON: I’m sure the member opposite can appreciate that it’s two levels of government that are working on this. There has been recent communication on this file and there will be an announcement very shortly.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Without giving away anything, can the minister just confirm that action will be taken before the moratorium expires?

TORY RUSHTON: I believe the member would remember the exchange or conversation back from last Fall, it’s my goal to have decisions and documents signed well before that deadline.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: There haven’t been any new bids for offshore oil exploration off our coast in about five years. That’s my understanding.

As we have discussed previously, the only potentially attractive exploration areas are in proximity to Georges Bank. I think there’s good evidence that would say that that could be a real threat to our lobster industry, which of course is hugely important to the economy of this province and lots of households in this province.

Is the minister considering winding down offshore oil and gas exploration and stopping calling for bids, especially given the warning of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and the global consensus about these types of extraction projects?

TORY RUSHTON: I think I’d like to elaborate on some of the comments that I did have in the Fall session of the Legislature.

Recently, the two governments did agree on a new chair for that board, which is dual-government - federal and provincial. I still emphasize the fact that I would like to see some sort of transition from that board and sort of go in line with what our government’s perspective is and ambitions are for greener energy.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I’m glad to hear that, but just to be clear, does the minister have the authority, as far as you understand, to just issue a moratorium? If so, what would be the hesitation in doing that? Just not calling for any more bids?

[3:30 p.m.]

TORY RUSHTON: It’s a dual-level government board so any of those decisions like that would have to come from both levels of government to move one way or the other.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Can the minister share anything about conversations in that direction? I assume those have been happening. Is there an appetite to kind of recognize that transition on the federal level?

TORY RUSHTON: What I can say is there have been very recent conversations, very recent, and there will be an announcement very shortly.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I’m glad to hear about that.

I want to look ahead, to move on to a couple of questions about the Low Carbon Communities fund. Several recipients of that grant in this fiscal year are working on deep energy retrofits, using panels similar to the model of Energiesprong. I think we saw - although I haven’t had the chance to look closely - some type of pilot for that in the federal budget, I believe, that was just released. That model is being scaled up across Europe and has a huge amount of potential to reduce power bills and GHG emissions. We’ve talked a fair amount about this today, and in the past a big part of our net zero commitment has to be not just transitioning our energy sector but reducing our use through efficiency.

Is the minister looking at scaling up this type of model for Nova Scotia - are there any funds in the budget to support that for this year?

TORY RUSHTON: We have done one pilot here in the province and since the Low
Carbon Communities fund has expired, per se, but I do recognize that there’s different funding that was announced yesterday in the federal budget. The department staff are certainly going to have their eyes open and review that, see what we can get access to, and build upon that pilot that we have. It is something that we are certainly interested in.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Aside from leveraging federal funds, is there any appetite to scale up this model in Nova Scotia, or funds in our budget, this budget, for work related to it?

TORY RUSHTON: As I said, we do have one pilot project in the province. Although there’s no certain allocation in the budget at this present time for those projects or further projects, we do look forward to working very closely with that pilot project right now, and certainly will not hinder us from working forward with other programs or in essence the current budget that sits before us to see what we can work with, as we work and evolve with that one pilot project.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: We’ve heard a lot about shifting to buy local, which is great. A lot of the way that we have focused on that over the past few years is to think about import replacement. One of the neat things, I think, about that retrofit model is that they’re prefabricated panels, essentially.

I’m wondering if the minister himself, or in conjunction with the Department of Economic Development, has done any analysis into manufacturing opportunities of producing those panels here in Nova Scotia.

TORY RUSHTON: Internally here, no, we haven’t had any of those discussions. I obviously can’t speak for the Department of Economic Development, but I will be reaching out and if I hear anything different, I’ll certainly share that. Something that we are playing a role in is researching any minerals that we could be a key player in advancing for that green technology.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I think, as we’ve talked about, we’re in the midst of a transition and what that transition looks like is really up to us. I think these kinds of opportunities - manufacturing and anything that supports the products and services that we’ll need in the future - are great areas of exploration. I hope that the minister does follow up on that.

Like I say, I don’t know a lot about that Energiesprong model, but what I know about it is really interesting and I think it potentially has a lot of application for us. If that does expand, I would just encourage that manufacturing piece to be on the radar because I think there could be a lot of good opportunity there.

I wanted to shift just a bit and ask: In the minister’s opening comments, he talked about electric vehicles, that $1 million incentive for installing infrastructure in condos and apartments. Could the minister just elucidate that a little bit? What’s the structure of that program?

TORY RUSHTON: This is something that I’m very excited about, especially how we’re going to get some of those EV chargers out to the rural areas of Nova Scotia.

The program is actually going to be administered by a third-party organization, so I will certainly commit right now, today, to make sure that the member opposite gets the information needed so that she has a full understanding of how that program’s going to roll out. I certainly encourage all members to endorse this program so we ensure that we get the charging units all over the province so that we can embrace this whole program.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I would love to know more about it. That question in particular is one that I’m starting to get more and more frequently from constituents who move into apartments in particular, or condo buildings, and then find that there’s no charging infrastructure and then run into a lot of blocks with their condo boards or building owners around installation of those.

I guess the addendum that I would also put onto that is that in general, as constituency MLAs, I haven’t received any information. I’m in touch with the Clean Foundation because they’re in my constituency so that’s helpful, but I don’t have any specific information as to where chargers might show up in my constituency. Right now, we have one public EV charger in downtown Dartmouth, which is at Mic Mac Mall, so it’s not even really in downtown Dartmouth. I would say that’s a hugely missed opportunity.

We have two ferry terminals, we have a fair number of serviced parking lots where that could show up. When Communauto, formerly CarShareHFX, was launched they found a way to get their vehicles all over downtown Dartmouth, which I think made a difference in our kind of transportation energy load and I would suggest that chargers would do the same.

If the minister - and maybe also the Minister of Environment and Climate Change if you guys are working together - can let MLAs know where that infrastructure is, where it could be, what the programs are, I think that at a constituency level there’s really good work we could do to help spread that. Just a plug to say the phone lines are always open.

Moving on from there, if we just go back for a moment to the Lahey review evaluation, one of the recommendations is maximizing opportunities for landowners to access carbon markets. I think that’s something we’ve talked around a little bit when we talked about forestry. I wonder if the minister can give an update on work related to this specific recommendation from the Lahey review?

TORY RUSHTON: I just want to go back quickly to the EVs and make a quick comment, something that the member is probably aware of - Next Ride actually does have an online app. Currently as many chargers as they are aware of are on the online program. As the RFPs go out for the new charging stations - and it’s certainly something that we’ll be cooperating with - staff are already shaking their heads that we’ll share information with all the MLA offices because this is something that we have to scatter all across the province. Any help we can get within the department to make sure that this takes place, we’ll be having those conversations.

Back to the carbon storage - the Forestry Innovation Transition Trust announced - I believe it was in late Fall or early Winter last year - how private woodlot owners can actually be working in collaboration with our department to review that as well - the carbon storage within their forests.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Just to clarify, what was it that was announced by the Forestry Innovation Transition Trust?

[3:45 p.m.]

TORY RUSHTON: Those are projects that are under the Family Forest Network. There was an array of a few different projects that were announced through them. One example is how that group can work with private woodlot owners to take part in the carbon trading.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Okay thanks. We’ll follow up on that.

One of the comments about the draft Old Forest Policy in the Lahey evaluation was that there was no reference to the cultural importance of old forest to the Mi’kmaw or incorporation of Indigenous knowledge into the policy.

We had the introduction of the Mi’kmaw Language Act yesterday by the Minister of L’nu Affairs. There’s been a signal that we need to obviously take Indigenous knowledge and Mi’kmaw wisdom into account, particularly when it comes to stewardship of our natural resources. I think that’s one of the transitions that we’ve acknowledged we have to make.

I wonder if this comment - if any action has come from it? Has that been rectified in the policy, or can the minister comment in general about how the department is approaching that?

TORY RUSHTON: I certainly recognize the important role that the Mi’kmaq played with their traditional forests and the consultation process.

Through the Old Forest Policy, we did do elaborate consultation portions and did a consultation with the Mi’kmaq. We certainly didn’t hear any of those concerns at the time. The final product isn’t finalized as of yet, and that will be released late Spring or early Summer.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: It will be interesting to see, it may be that Professor Lahey was speaking only for himself, but it does seem self-evident that we would want to incorporate that kind of language. Maybe that’s worth looking into.

During the election, there was a lot of conversation around blue-ribbon panels of subject matter experts. Somehow the blue-ribbon part makes me think of a pie-eating contest. I know that’s not what we’re talking about.

One of the ways that that was raised in particular was as a solution for divisive environmental assessment issues. When we have industry pitted against environment, which we certainly saw in the session leading up to the election, I would say, around the Biodiversity Act, I guess the notion is that these blue-ribbon panels could give us solid, uncontested facts on which to make our decisions.

I’m wondering, now that the minister’s been in government for a few months, if that notion still stands. Is there any thought of how that could be used with regard to forestry or in your department?

TORY RUSHTON: Certainly, if it’s a blue-ribbon competition, I would certainly hope that it’s good Cumberland County blueberries that we’re going to have in those pies.

In all seriousness, the blue-ribbon panel that was discussed would certainly fall under the Department of Environment and Climate Change, not Natural Resources and Renewables.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Okay, I’ll ask the Minister of Environment and Climate Change what kind of produce is most pie-worthy in Dartmouth East and then whether the blue-ribbon panel is being established any time soon.

I guess the answer there, though, is that that would not apply, that that’s not a topic of consideration in the Department of Natural Resources and Renewables, that that type of panel wouldn’t play a role in, say, forestry or mining or any of the various activities of the department.

TORY RUSHTON: Certainly, there has been no conversation about a blue-ribbon panel in the department since I’ve been in this chair. It’s not to say that there wouldn’t be a round-table panel that could be formed if an issue were to arise, but to this date there has been no discussion about a round-table, blue-ribbon panel, if you will, within this department.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I may have missed this because I was out of the room for a bit when my colleagues were asking questions, but I was very struck by the conversation we had at committee a couple of months ago about abandoned mine sites and the astronomical cost of clean up and the fact that that cost is only booked when that evaluation is done and the project starts, and we know that we have abandoned mine sites all over the province.

I’m wondering, does that budget just somehow magically appear in the fiscal year when a mine is going to be cleaned up? Or is there any fund or space where the government as a whole, or the minister’s department, is planning for that? That’s just a massive, ongoing cost that we’re going to be paying for decades.

TORY RUSHTON: In this budget, this year there’s $1 million set aside to do the site assessments on some of these projects. When we have a better understanding of each project, I guess that’s when I, as the minister, would go to Cabinet and make a request when we have a better understanding of the project costs that would be incurred to clean up a certain specific site.

I also want to make a comment that after the assessment is done, there could be sites that actually don’t need any remediation. It may be a matter of maintaining the condition that it’s in right now.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: That’s helpful in terms of process. I hope it’s not magical thinking. My assumption is that there’s a lot of remediation that needs to get done. Certainly, there may be some that don’t need it, but based on what we heard at that committee, and in general, we have a lot of work to do. But I’m glad to hear that that work is going on in terms of evaluating.

I’m not sure, to be honest, if this is in the Department of Natural Resources and Renewables or Department of Environment and Climate Change right now, but I was struck today at the comments of the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board in response to a question about housing. I can’t remember the exact question, but his response was essentially that we need to have flexibility over how to spend government funds. I think it was about whether the new tax on property transfer was going to go into a special fund for affordable housing. The minister’s response was no, we want to have flexibility. We want to be able to spend the money the way we want to spend it. We don’t want to tie their hands.

In fact, we’ve done that very successfully, I would argue, with the Green Fund where we’ve made sure that the money raised from our version of carbon pricing is put in this fund and is spent for appropriate mitigation efforts.

Could the minister confirm if the plan is to retain the Green Fund in that way or are we at risk for need for flexibility?

TORY RUSHTON: Mr. Chair, what I can say about that is sort of the design concept of that Green Fund lies solely over at the Department of Environment and Climate Change.

I guess the benefit that we do get in our department is that once that funding is available, we work hand in hand on where the allocations are going to go, but the development and the monitoring of that actually does go with the Department of Environment and Climate Change.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Okay. I’ll ask the Minister of Environment and Climate Change directly one of these days.

We’re finishing up. We just have a couple of minutes. One of the legislative changes that we’ve been pushing for is acknowledgement of the low income status or energy poverty in the mandate of the NSUARB. Those words now appear in the new Act that’s been tabled. I’m not totally clear on what their impact is, but I’m certainly glad to see them there. I know that the minister has talked about some low income retrofit and efficiency efforts.

I wonder if the minister would commit to creating an energy poverty strategy with benchmarks because this is a crucial effort that needs to be undertaken and one that can easily be overlooked - is that something that the department would consider doing? Is that work that’s happening in a different way?

TORY RUSHTON: Mr. Chair, I don’t think it’s any surprise that I’m certainly not going to commit to any strategy in this forum and in this type of conversation. What I will commit to the member opposite is that we’ve had elaborate stakeholder conversations, phone calls to the department that have sort of developed into the programs that we do operate now.

As we do go through it, transitional change of how Nova Scotians do receive electricity and energy, I do commit to the member opposite, and all Nova Scotians, that energy poverty is something that I do recognize. Affordability of anything in today’s economy is very important to me and our government. I do commit that we’ll stay engaged with these conversations and programs, that we could certainly help achieve some of these common goals.

[4:00 p.m.]

THE CHAIR: I’ll put it back to you to thank the minister if you wish.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: We want to leave time for the minister to close up and read the resolution, so thank you so much to the minister. Thank you to the hard-working staff in the department for being present and answering these questions. I look forward to continuing the conversation.

THE CHAIR: Thank you to the member, and before concluding the consideration of Estimates for this evening, I invite the minister to offer closing remarks and then read the department’s Estimates resolution.

TORY RUSHTON: First off, I want to thank all the members who had a chance and an opportunity to ask questions today and engage in conversation. I certainly want to leave that we’re open to carry on conversations that are even outside of this realm. It’s very important for Nova Scotians, for all parties that are involved, to have these conversations.

Importantly, as well, I want to recognize staff who are with me today but also staff who made all the information available for us to make available many of the answers. It’s a lot of hard-working staff behind each minister and that’s how we achieve our goals in Nova Scotia. I do want to recognize that, and everybody at Legislature TV and the Legislature that allows us to do this on an annual basis. As much of a pain as it might be for them, it’s part of our legislative process and our democracy and it’s something that we do respect.

THE CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Shall Resolution E15 stand?

Resolution E15 stands.

It is now 4:02 p.m. and the House is set to adjourn at 5:00 p.m. That concludes the subcommittee’s consideration of Estimates for today. The subcommittee will resume consideration when the House again resolves into a Committee of the Whole on Supply.

I ask you to return to your seats in the Legislative Chamber. The Committee of the Whole must rise and report before the House concludes its business for the day. The meeting is adjourned.

[The committee rose at 4:03 p.m.]