HALIFAX, MONDAY, APRIL 4, 2022

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY

5:22 P.M.

CHAIR

Lisa Lachance

THE CHAIR: Order, please. The Subcommittee on Supply will come to order. It is now 5:22 p.m. The Subcommittee is meeting to consider the Estimates for the Department of Agriculture, as outlined in Resolution E2.

Resolution E2 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $40,499,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Agriculture, pursuant to the Estimate.

I will now invite the Minister of Agriculture to make opening comments for up to one hour, if they wish, and to introduce their staff to the committee.

The honourable Minister of Agriculture.

HON. GREG MORROW: Thank you, Mx. Chair. Before I proceed, please allow me to introduce the members of my senior team who are joining me here today. Supporting me are Deputy Minister Loretta Robichaud, and Michael O’Brien, Executive Director at the Department of Finance and Treasury Board.

It is with great pleasure that I come here today to talk about the Department of Agriculture’s work and the agriculture sector. The department helps support and grow agriculture and agri-food throughout the province. We develop programs, services, and policies to help farming in rural and urban communities to be more competitive, sustainable, and profitable.

We work with farmers, community groups, and partners to help increase the province’s food supply and improve food security. We also promote the importance of buying local, and help consumers find local farms, food and beverage producers and products.

The department supports the economic growth and sustainability of the agriculture and agri-food sector by providing programs to help food and beverage producers, processors, and commodity associations. The department also works to promote Nova Scotia food and beverage products to local and export markets. We oversee the province’s agriculture legislation, including supply management, and we provide financing and credit counselling for the agriculture and agri-food sector.

Last year Nova Scotia saw a 14 per cent increase in farm cash receipts. That is an impressive $84 million increase and brought the total farm cash receipts to $674 million in 2021, up from $590 million in 2020. Nova Scotia’s supply-managed industries include dairy - poultry and eggs accounted for about half of farm cash receipts. Other major contributors to 2021 farm cash receipts included fresh blueberries, at $45.9 million; cattle at $30.5 million; horticulture nursery products and sod at $30.3 million; cannabis at $51.3 million; fresh field vegetables at $35.9 million; and fresh apples at $22.9 million.

In 2021, 7,492 people earned a living by being directly employed in the primary production of agriculture in Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia’s agricultural sector has hard-working people. It is great to see the increase in farm cash receipts in 2021 reflect their hard work, especially during the challenging times of the pandemic. Of course, many more Nova Scotians are employed in agriculture-related services, such as the feed industry, farm machinery, and farm supply stores.

It is important that we continue to grow the sector and develop new markets. Agri-food products are the fourth largest export category in Nova Scotia, and with last year’s increase in agri-food exports, we’re seeing more high-quality Nova Scotia products on tables across the world.

Nova Scotia’s international agriculture and agri-food exports totalled $399.7 million in 2021, up 7 per cent from 2020. Our major markets are the United States at 50 per cent; the Netherlands at 9 per cent; Germany at 7 per cent; and South Korea at 5 per cent. Wild blueberries are the top agricultural export for Nova Scotia, exceeding $120 million in sales in 2021.

Nova Scotia participates in federal-provincial/territorial cost shared framework agreements to support agriculture policy and priorities for the sector. These agreements fund strategic development programs and business risk management programming.

My department offers many programs that are funded through the Canadian Agricultural Partnership, or CAP for short. CAP is a five-year, $3-billion federal-provincial/territorial investment to strengthen the agriculture, agri-food, and agri-based product sector and increase its competitiveness, prosperity, and sustainability.

For Nova Scotia, that means a total of $37 million is being invested through provincially delivered programs. These programs focus on markets and trade; science, research and innovation; environmental sustainability and climate change; risk management; value-added agriculture and agri-food processing; and public trust.

CAP is entering its final year of the five-year agreement. I am happy to report that work has begun on the development of the next policy framework for agriculture. That framework will replace CAP, which expires almost exactly one year from now on March 31, 2023. A new vision was agreed upon by ministers at the most recent federal-provincial/territorial ministers’ meeting in Guelph, Ontario.

The Guelph Statement is an important milestone for the framework, as it represents a shared vision for the future success of the industry. The vision agreed upon by ministers for the next agricultural policy framework charts an ambitious path for the sector focused on five priority areas: environment and climate change; science, research and innovation; market development and trade; building sector capacity and growth; resiliency and public trust.

Prior to the meeting in Guelph, my department held an initial round of consultation with industry related to the priority areas. The Guelph Statement reflects the large amount of input received so far through stakeholder consultations over the past year. Further consultations will be held as the department outlines specific programs for its bilateral agreement with Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada.

The federal and provincial governments are conducting a review of business risk management programming and have made some short-term changes while a more comprehensive review is completed for inclusion in the next policy framework. The review is focused on significant reform, particularly to the AgriStability program. Business risk management programs are the tools that provide agricultural producers with protection against income and production losses, helping them manage risks that threaten the viability of their farms.

[5:30 p.m.]

These are voluntary, demand-driven programs that are national in scope. These programs include: AgriInsurance, production-based insurance programs; AgriInvest, a self-managed producer-government savings account to help manage small income declines and make investments to manage risks; AgriStability, an income disaster program to manage large income declines; AgriRecovery, disaster assistance to assist farming operations resume operations after natural disasters and/or disease outbreaks; and AgriRisk Initiatives supports the development of new risk management tools.

Nova Scotia’s wine industry continues to show positive results in sales and our wines and winemakers continue to earn worldwide recognition. We’re becoming known around the world for our high-quality wine products. In fact, there have been at least two international articles in the past six weeks recommending wine lovers visit Nova Scotia to experience the region producing Tidal Bay wines, our quintessential, unique appellation.

We are fortunate to have a unique climate and talented winemakers producing world-class products in Nova Scotia, and we want to grow the industry through strategic investments and export development. We want to continue to build on our success in growing grapes here in Nova Scotia and to support the industry’s focus on quality for consumers.

In 2021, there were 25 licensed farm wineries in Nova Scotia, 19 grape wineries, and six non-grape wineries. Sales of Nova Scotia wine in 2020 totalled $23.5 million, supporting more than 500 jobs. To date, Nova Scotia wines have earned more than 200 local, national, and international awards.

Through our work with key agricultural associations in Nova Scotia, we are continuing to drive innovation in agriculture. Working in collaboration with Horticulture Nova Scotia and Perennia Food and Agriculture, we piloted a long-cane raspberry project this past year and invested $309,000 in partnering with commercial growers on the development of a new market opportunity.

Commercial growers adopted new technologies for growing raspberries that respond to climate change and consumer demand while creating a more sustainable and profitable way of farming. In the first year of the pilot, producers demonstrated they can grow more raspberries with fewer output costs. As we look to the second year of the program, we want to pass along knowledge on this opportunity to more growers who are looking to diversify and extend their growing season.

Through our work with the Christmas Tree Council of Nova Scotia, we’ve continued to invest in research in SMART trees, the genetically screened and naturally selected seedlings that have superior quality traits, such as improved needle retention, colour, aroma, and shape. Our continued work with more than 300 Christmas tree growers in Nova Scotia supports the development of a $10-million industry that has seen outstanding export growth in the United States.

Through our work with the maple producers of Nova Scotia, we’re also working to promote innovation. Our technologies for value-added agricultural programs have assisted commercial maple producers in purchasing state-of-the-art equipment that allows them to produce more syrup while consuming less energy.

Going forward, programs like these that help producers lower their costs of production while creating more local products for Nova Scotians and for export, will continue to drive our approach to innovation.

As our largest agricultural export, wild blueberries are important to our province’s economy, to rural economies, and to Nova Scotia’s long-term food security. Research and innovation are instrumental to that growth. We are working with industry to find new ways to increase blueberry sales through expansion of fresh, frozen, and value-added products.

We’ve hosted annual challenge events with the Wild Blueberry Producers Association of Nova Scotia to invest in new value-added product development, and we’ve supported research activities that encourage improved harvesting techniques.

The Wild Blueberry Harvest Efficiency Program just wrapped up its three-year effort to support producers and provided $5.5 million to 138 producers to improve the efficiency of the harvests. These techniques are adding to the quality and the quantity of wild blueberries grown here in Nova Scotia.

The pan-Atlantic fund is another source of support for the sector. It has combined the resources of New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, and Nova Scotia to provide $233,000 in research funding for potential new production technologies. With wild blueberries being recognized worldwide for their health properties, we see opportunities to grow sales in domestic markets and to pursue new export markets in Asia and the European Union.

Last year there were 886 registered beekeepers, keeping about 26,500 hives and nearly 17,500 hives pollinated wild blueberry fields. Despite the impacts of COVID-19, the honey and pollination industry remained strong while the blueberry industry continued its rebound from low market prices in 2020.

The bee industry is responsible for millions in revenue, from hive rentals, honey production, and value-added products, along with the value of the crops they pollinate. A healthy bee population is key to the success of our fruit and berry crops and the strengthening of the price in 2022 is likely to bring increased demand for pollination services.

Through the Joint Pollination Committee, the Nova Scotia Beekeepers Association works closely with the Wild Blueberry Producers Association of Nova Scotia and the Department of Agriculture. This past year we supported this partnership through the development of the Blueberry Pollination Expansion Program. Maintaining bee biosecurity is also important to the health of our bee industry.

COVID-19-related transportation delays reinforced the need to reduce our reliance on foreign queen and packaged bee imports and to build the capacity to support our needs within our own province. We encourage the growth of our honeybee sector in Nova Scotia. Perennia’s Atlantic Tech Transfer Team for Apiculture continues to support applied research to find practical solutions for beekeeping in our region. The research and extension services they provide are valuable. Their work will help give the industry the knowledge and skills to rear queens and expand operations domestically.

The second in-person annual Minister’s Conference for Agriculture is scheduled for November 3^rd and 4^th at the Halifax Convention Centre. These two days will be dedicated to bringing people together to explore how we will grow and sustain Nova Scotia’s agriculture sector. The conference is aimed at helping producers to embrace innovation and adopt resilient business practices while adapting to the realities of climate change. The conference program will feature keynote addresses from international experts and the expertise of regional panelists across a wide range of agricultural sectors. A focus on diversity and inclusion, women in agriculture, and young farmers will also be key elements of the event.

The conference is designed to provide producers and agri-producers with direct access to marketing, retail, and investment resources and contacts, while helping to showcase the latest information in agricultural research, technology, and market development.

As a prelude to the conference the department organized the Minister of Agriculture Digital Series from February 16^th to April 6^th. These 90-minute events covered important topics to the agricultural community, including climate change, investment and succession planning, accessing labour, retail trends, and weather monitoring. The free webinars provided producers with practical advice on how to access support and resources, and at the live conference in November we’re going to continue the conversation about new opportunities in agriculture.

Labour continues to be a key challenge for the agriculture sector. My department continues to champion this issue with other provincial departments and our federal counterparts. We also committed to working with industry and other government departments to help address the labour shortage. Temporary foreign workers are a vital part of our seasonal agricultural workforce. We have released guidelines for employers to help navigate federal quarantine rules, and Perennia has been contacted to assist employers in finding off-site quarantine locations and to troubleshoot issues.

Although COVID-19 travel and quarantine requirements caused some delays in 2021, nearly 2,000 temporary foreign workers arrived to work in Nova Scotia. We are in a much better place this season with the pandemic and vaccinations, but I know that employers may be concerned about the costs of isolation due to federal requirements. Nova Scotia Public Health has not imposed any further restrictions around temporary foreign workers’ entry into Nova Scotia for the 2022 season. While we anticipate that there may be very few unvaccinated temporary foreign workers coming to Nova Scotia, we are advocating for federal funding to cover federal requirements of isolation. Workers will continue to be eligible to access vaccinations, boosters, and testing throughout the season.

Maintaining a connection between farms and students is a priority for the Department of Agriculture. We are continuing our Agriculture On-Farm Student Bursary program to reward students who work on farms throughout the summer. These bursaries help address the labour gap for primary agriculture producers in Nova Scotia and introduce agriculture as a viable career option for students.

More than 200 Grade 12 and post-secondary Nova Scotia students have been awarded the bursary since the program started in 2019, with 180 farms participating. The bursary program provides students with $500 or $1,000 bursaries towards their educational fees, and $170,000 in bursaries has been awarded to date. The governments of Canada and Nova Scotia support the initiative through the Canadian Agricultural Partnership.

All of us care deeply about the environment and want actions to be taken to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. We know there is no single solution. We need to adjust our behaviour, resources, and technology in order to be able to cope with how our climate is changing. Nova Scotians are seeing the impacts of climate change and the agricultural sector has lost millions of dollars over the past few years. In 2018 we had a frost event, followed by Hurricane Dorian in 2019, and a drought in 2020.

Warmer temperatures, higher sea levels, more extreme rainfalls, and more frequent and intense storms are in our climate change projections. Interestingly, climate change could also bring opportunities to Nova Scotia - for instance, a longer and warmer growing season could lead to new crops and varieties. This could be good for grapes and wine and for Nova Scotians to access more local products through the year.

Within the Department of Agriculture, we have an environmental sustainability and climate change section to support this important work. We are investigating activities that would capitalize on the potential opportunities of a changing climate while minimizing the challenges and economic impacts to the agricultural industry and infrastructure. In addition, our department was the first to participate in a program to help provincial departments and their industry partners to better anticipate and prepare for climate-related risks and opportunities. It is called the Climate Adaptation Leadership Program. This program was designed and implemented by the Nova Scotia Department of Environment and Climate Change, along with other departments and external stakeholders. It is helping to build the skills and capacity of government departments, community partners, and industry to prepare for the impact of a changing and increasingly uncertain environment.

One of our first successes was the creating of a departmental climate change adaptation plan. Our climate change adaptation plan puts a climate lens on the development of new departmental programs, and we are working with three commodity groups to help them prepare for the impacts of climate change.

The cattle and sheep industry, the Christmas tree industry and the horticulture industry, COVID-19 has also shown us that we need to produce more food as a province to help feed our families in case of emergency. Our resource sustainability division is working hard to protect agricultural land from the impacts of climate change. Risk assessment studies, flood mapping, aboiteau structural restoration projects, dike land upgrades and maintenance, and salt marsh restoration are examples of climate change activities that have been completed or are being planned for future years.

We’re making significant investments in our agricultural dike lands. In 2019 an eight-year, almost $50 million capital project started that will upgrade 16 of the most vulnerable dikes in the province. These sites provide flood protection to tens of thousands of residents and businesses, historical and World Heritage sites, and sites that may have special cultural significance to the Mi'kmaw, and more than 17,000 hectares of farmland. This investment of capital will help protect these sites from climate change impacts.

The upgrades are funded equally by the provincial and federal governments through the Disaster Mitigation and Adaptation Fund. We are working to ensure that our dike land system is better prepared to withstand the effects of climate change by upgrading 60 kilometres of dikes and five aboiteau structures along the Bay of Fundy.

Outside of the Disaster Mitigation and Adaptation Fund, the land protection division continues to maintain 240 kilometres of dikes, 250 aboiteaux, along with the 81 incorporated marshlands, which form the provincial dike system. The team actively complete dike and aboiteau repairs throughout the year.

[5:45 p.m.]

Significant investments have been made in the areas of armour protection and gate replacement. During the Summer season, the primary focus is to maintain the important grass cover along the dikes to combat storms and overtopping.

While chervil is one of the weeds endangering this vegetative strip, the department continues to implement an aggressive plan to manage the weed to prevent impacts to the vegetative cover along the dike system.

In addition, the Nova Scotia Agriculture energy partnership program funds the on-site energy manager for agriculture at EfficiencyOne. This program provides support for our agriculture industry to assess energy efficiency and conservation options, access funding programs, and implement improvements. It has included projects such as efficient lighting and refrigeration technology and it is helping to reduce agriculture’s electricity and fossil fuel footprint.

The Canadian Agricultural Partnership program has been fundamental in supporting the environmental sustainability and climate change efforts of our agriculture sector. The Agri-Environmental Program, including the Nova Scotia Environmental Farm Plan, and the Soil and Water Sustainability Program support many best management practices.

These have multiple benefits including climate resilience, carbon storage, enhancing biodiversity, and water quality protection. Producer participation in these programs has been significant, building a strong foundation and preparing the sector for potential climate change impacts.

Our $5 million Agriculture Clean Technology Program is helping to support the adoption of clean technologies that help reduce greenhouse gas emissions, improve energy efficiency, promote sustainable and clean growth, and increase value-added agricultural production. The program supports our efforts to combat climate change by adopting new innovations on farms that add to the length of the growing season while reducing energy costs.

Reducing energy costs on farms can be accomplished in many ways with energy-efficient equipment and processes and improved lighting and ventilation. Efficient heating and cooling equipment can reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

In September, the Premier provided me with a mandate letter that sets out several important responsibilities. With other departments, we are examining policies and programs to reduce the cost of healthy foods for consumers, an acknowledgement of the barriers and costs to eating healthy.

My department is supporting and encouraging local food consumption with the goal of 20 per cent of the money spent on food by Nova Scotians being spent on locally produced food by 2030. We are leading the efforts to determine how to reach the 20 per cent target through policies and a dedicated staff member to support getting more local healthy food into our public institutions and facilitate the relationship between agricultural producers and these types of institutions.

We are leading the development of policies and encourage local consumption by the public in alignment with the Nova Scotia Loyal plan. We are hard at work on these mandate items. My department is leading the effort to increase the consumption of local food and to reduce the cost of eating healthy. We are working horizontally with multiple departments to reach our goals.

The Nova Scotia Food and Beverage Strategy will be a key driver in meeting the goal of 20 per cent of money spent on locally produced food by 2030. My department is leading the development of this cross-departmental strategy focusing on the themes of enhanced awareness, improved access, and increased local production. The Department of Agriculture will facilitate coordination of the strategy, working with various leads in other departments to consolidate metrics and outcome reporting.

We want to see Nova Scotians consuming more products harvested, grown, and produced by our food industry. The department ran several successful buy local initiatives designed to raise the awareness and sales of Nova Scotia’s fresh and exceptional quality agri-foods, seafood, and beverage products.

This includes in-store campaigns that help shoppers find Nova Scotia products at major and independent retailers, and seasonal promotions aimed at showcasing the quality and diversity of Nova Scotia products. The work from the Buy Local Partnership Program

will evolve to support the Nova Scotia Loyal initiative. As we move forward, we will continue to work together to keep Nova Scotians well nourished with local foods.

It is important that government represents all Nova Scotians and is reflective of the societal makeup of Nova Scotia. The department is undertaking several initiatives to support diversity and inclusion in the agriculture sector.

Activities include scholarships and Summer internships for African Nova Scotian and Mi’kmaw students, a training program for African Nova Scotians to introduce horticulture food production, and specialized lending programs for underrepresented populations. I’d like to share some details about these initiatives.

Honouring Mi’kmaw Roots and Grow Where You’re Planted - these are new entrance scholarships and Summer intern placements to promote agricultural careers. These will be awarded to a Mi’kmaw student and an African Nova Scotian student, respectively, who are enrolled in an agriculture degree program at a Canadian university.

Bridge into Agriculture is a partnership between the Nova Scotia Federation of Agriculture, the Dalhousie Agricultural Campus, African Nova Scotian Affairs, and the department to offer a training program for African Nova Scotians to introduce horticulture food production. This 22-week course offers a blend of online and hands-on training for 20 participants.

The Hope Blooms garden box program - our Agriculture in the Classroom team is partners with Hope Blooms to provide home garden kits to African Nova Scotian students. African Nova Scotian students aged 8- to 12-years-old across the province receive our home garden kits to learn to grow vegetables at home.

The community food growing project at the East Preston Day Care Centre is a project that provides children knowledge and understanding of how to grow food and the importance of community food security.

The Black Youth Development and Mentorship Program - the department had three positions in its Truro offices in 2021 as part of the Department of Public Works-led initiative to provide Black youth an opportunity to work in the Public Service. Truro’s African Nova Scotian community requested an expansion of the program to other government departments and the Department of Agriculture has secured four additional positions in the community for this year.

The specialized lending programs - our Crown lending agency is developing two lending programs specific to underrepresented populations. Work is underway to modify loan applications and expand guidelines that would increase eligibility to Indigenous applicants. The second program will support new immigrants to Nova Scotia by considering higher-risk loans to accommodate for the lack of traditional lending requirements such as land.

Agribusiness for new entrants event - we participated at this event which is hosted by the Community Business Development Corporation. The event targets new immigrants who have agriculture or agri-food production experience in their home country but are not working in related fields.

Designated positions - the department has two designated staff positions and is in the process of developing others including a director of equity, inclusion, and belonging to provide targeted leadership in these areas.

Our department is very fortunate to have an excellent partnership with the industry-led Nova Scotia Federation of Agriculture. The Federation is a strong voice, and we share in its vision for a prosperous and sustainable future for Nova Scotia farms and farmers. We’ve worked together with the Federation on several activities including promoting environmental farm plans and preparing for climate change.

Public trust has been a key focus for the department and the Federation. We continue to work closely with the Canadian Centre for Food Integrity to promote accurate information on agriculture issues to the general public.

Our government is committed to ensuring that Nova Scotians learn about the importance of agriculture. The Federation’s Open Farm Day helps Nova Scotians better understand farming and how agriculture supports our economy. I want to congratulate the Federation and staff for their work and for the time and ingenuity to create a combined in-person and virtual event.

The Agriculture in the Classroom program is creating helpful educational opportunities. Our staff are working with the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development, post-secondary institutions, and the agriculture industry.

Through Agriculture in the Classroom, Nova Scotia’s teachers have access to hands-on resources that are linked to the curriculum. Our students are learning where their food comes from, the importance of agriculture to our province, and how they might plan to become involved in the industry themselves one day.

As the COVID-19 experience continues edging towards its third year, it is important to focus on our mental health in the industry. There are several contributing factors to stress for agricultural producers. Besides COVID-19, there are catastrophic weather events, lack of consumer support, animal activism, decreased commodity prices, increased competition, trade barriers, and labour shortages.

It’s important to monitor how these types of factors may be affecting our producers. Our department has members on the farm safety advisory board which makes mental health initiatives a priority. It is important work. Farm Safety Nova Scotia was behind the impressive “We Talk. We Grow” campaign to provide mental health resources for the agricultural community.

The Department of Agriculture has provided core funding for Farm Safety Nova Scotia for a number of years. As well, all of our department’s front line extension staff have been trained in mental health first aid so they can provide clients with information on available resources.

The Department of Agriculture owns eight community pastures through the Nova Scotia Farm Loan Board and is proud to have this land available for farmers and to keep large pieces of land in our province for agricultural use. Throughout the past year, our staff have worked with the seven active community pasture boards in Nova Scotia.

Our goal is to ensure that the pastures remain sustainable and accessible for agricultural use and that they continue to be a resource to help grow the rural economy now and for future generations. With this in mind, we’ve created the community pastures support program aimed at helping pasture organizations with their infrastructure and soil fertility needs.

The eighth community pasture is in my own constituency of Guysborough-Tracadie. It has not been in active use for decades. The Farm Loan Board currently has a request for proposals to attract a new agricultural use for this land.

Work is underway on the Bible Hill exhibition grounds. The improvements to the Bible Hill exhibition grounds will rejuvenate the site and make it a destination for events and races. This includes a new horse barn; mechanical, electrical, and structural repairs to the grandstand; and repairs and improvements to other buildings on the grounds. These enhancements will create a venue for showcasing the latest in innovation and excellence in agriculture from across the province.

As members will know, harness racing is a multi-million dollar industry and an important contributor to Nova Scotia’s rural economic growth and development. The Farm Loan Board is working on selecting a new management team for the grounds which will bring new vision and a long-term strategic plan to the site.

The Bible Hill exhibition grounds present significant opportunities for creating new and innovative alliances and partnerships and for developing the grounds as a premier agriculture and community event destination. The Farm Loan Board will work in collaboration with the successful proponents to maximize the potential of the grounds while ensuring that the public land and the infrastructure associated with the grounds are consistently maintained.

With that, Mx. Chair, I conclude my opening remarks and welcome questions from members. Thank you.

THE CHAIR: Thank you very much, minister.

The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic to begin the Official Opposition.

HON. BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I want to thank the minister and congratulate him on his new role. You seem to be fitting in nicely as evident by that nice long speech you just gave. Great job.

I have a whole list of questions here, but I want to start with some really easy ones. Just a few definitions. “Catastrophic weather” was something that you had mentioned. Could you just give us a definition from your department of what catastrophic weather is when it comes to agriculture and what would cause it?

[6:00 p.m.]

GREG MORROW: We would define catastrophic weather events as things that I mentioned: hurricanes, droughts, frost events, and other things outside the normal weather cycle.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: And maybe snow in April. (laughs)

You mentioned the term “animal activism” which impacts our farmers. Could you explain what that is, too?

GREG MORROW: Animal activism could be defined as protests on farm sites or trespassing on farm properties.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: The reason I asked about catastrophic weather in particular is that there was a comment made during your speech which really caught my ear, about the benefits of climate change and global warming on farmers. I can show you a million articles that say the opposite of that.

The warming of the weather causes droughts, and it causes pathogens to enter into the food system. I’ve never heard a farmer say that global warming is good. I’ve never really heard a politician or a minister, for that matter, cite the benefits of global warming.

The reason I’m confused around that statement is on one hand, during your speech you talked about all the events that impact farmers when it comes to global warming and the impact on the bottom dollar and their mental health, but then you kind of slipped in there that there is some positive.

What science does your department have - just by doing a quick Google search, it’s pretty apparent that some of the world’s leading scientists and organizations are saying the exact opposite about global warming and the impact it’s going to have on our farmers. I’m just wondering what information your department has that maybe the rest of the world doesn’t.

GREG MORROW: I certainly don’t want to take away or minimize the negative effects of climate change on the industry. These are just a few examples of trials that we’ve done through Perennia for different initiatives, that show that there are some positives as I mentioned in my remarks, in regard to the growing seasons and warmer temperatures.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I will note that in Nova Scotia in particular, we’re very susceptible to ticks and Lyme disease. One of the major impacts of a warming climate and climate change is more ticks introduced to the local ecosystem.

I’m just looking a report here from the United Nations that literally says that loss of agricultural productivity is one of the major issues with climate change. It’ll result in droughts that could worsen living conditions. They’ve reported that climate change has drastically altered rainfall patterns and created risks to water and food supplies for millions. They estimate approximately 75 to 250 million people just in Africa alone will be without adequate water and food because of global warming.

I just wanted to give you a moment to kind of clarify what you meant by the positives of global warming because I’ve never heard that before.

I’m just going through your mandate letter. It was an interesting read as all of them are. We’re sitting at, correct me if I’m wrong, approximately 7 per cent of local food is being produced right here in Nova Scotia. Your mandate letter has said that the goal is to achieve 20 per cent of the money spent on food by Nova Scotians being spent on locally produced food by 2030.

If you could just give me the baseline of where we’re at right now, where the public can find that number, and what is your target, or do you have targets, year over year until 2030?

GREG MORROW: We’ve certainly heard different numbers bandied about, 7 per cent being one of them; I’ve heard as high as 15 per cent. That’s one of the things that we in the department are trying to do right now is nail down a firm number so that we have a baseline metric to work from and so that we’re comparing apples to apples when we get to where we want to go.

As far as initiatives, the Nova Scotia Food and Beverage Strategy would certainly be one. We’re working with the other departments to put that in place. We’d certainly be happy to share more details as we go along.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I want to thank the minister for that answer. When can we expect the first update on the current baseline for local food production in Nova Scotia?

GREG MORROW: To the member, nobody is more excited to get that number than I am, I can assure you of that. As I said, we want to make sure that we get the right number so that we have it going forward. We’re hopeful that probably in a six-week timeframe, by the end of Spring, we might have that nailed down.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: The reason why I think this is so important, and I think most, if not all Nova Scotians, believe that this is extremely important - one of the issues that’s very pressing right now is, we saw in 2021, last year in particular, was a really difficult year for our supply chain. I think people forget that we had interruptions to our rail which really had an impact on our supply chain.

What had an even larger impact was COVID-19 and what was coming out of China and what wasn’t coming out of China. I think for a lot of Nova Scotians in particular, it really shone a light on how we are not really a self-reliant province. We like to think that we are an agriculture base and fishing, in particular, but I think it quickly dawned on a lot of people when they went to the grocery store and products weren’t there.

Where did you come up with the 20 per cent because 20 per cent doesn’t seem like a large number? It still seems to me that we’re going to be largely dependent on other countries and other jurisdictions for our produce and food. Where did you come up with the 20 per cent and why?

GREG MORROW: That number was a just a baseline number that we were given. I think that in respect to the supply chain, that by having more food produced locally here in the province will help address those issues through time. Just to get to 20 per cent is a starting point. Obviously we’d be happy to be at 100 per cent, but we have to start somewhere. We’ll start there and go from there.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Who gave you the 20 per cent? You said the 20 per cent baseline was given to you. Who gave it to you and why?

GREG MORROW: You referenced my mandate letter. It was given to me by the Premier in my mandate letter.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: The Premier, who has no background in agriculture, gave you the 20 per cent. My question is: As the minister in charge of this department, did you ask him where he came up with the 20 per cent?

I would hope that there’s some science behind this. I see some of the members are amused, but you have to have a reason for these numbers, right? If in eight years, we want to be at 20 per cent, my question is why? Why not higher? Why 20 per cent?

Obviously, like you said, the 20 per cent I would have thought came from your department as they are the experts, but it clearly came from One Government Place, 7^th Floor. As Minister of Agriculture, did you ask him why 20 per cent, how they came up with it, and who came up with it?
 

GREG MORROW: I can’t speak for the Premier. He gave it to me in his mandate letter, but it would have come from various datasets; they would have come up with that number.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: For clarity of the people of Nova Scotia, as Minister of Agriculture I’m assuming that you have access to those datasets, where that 20 per cent came from. Would it be within your authority to request that information and be able to release it to the public?

There’s a significant amount of investment that’s going to go into this. We haven’t even gotten into that number yet. If you’re telling me that the Premier’s told you that it’s 20 per cent, I think Nova Scotians should know why. More importantly, not just Nova Scotians but the agricultural community should know why.

What I would say is that the more we produce locally, the bigger impact it has, especially in rural Nova Scotia. Would you be able to get those datasets and maybe table them in the Legislature for us?

[6:15 p.m.]

GREG MORROW: Mx. Chair, we can’t replicate all the different data sets. We talked about the different numbers that are out there currently. We’re just starting from our mandate letter and working with that metric.

THE CHAIR: Anything further?

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I’ll move on to the next topic, but I do want to say that not having a baseline is a little troubling. There’s a big difference between 7 per cent and 15 per cent. If you’re sitting at 7 per cent right now, you have to triple food consumption. If you’re at 15 per cent, that’s a 5 per cent increase.

I think it is a little troubling that the department and the minister has no idea what that baseline is. Where do you come up with the 20 per cent if you have no baseline? It could be 20 per cent already; it could be 19 per cent. It just sounds good. Without actually having the baseline, I think that saying to your department - and saying to you, minister, respectfully - that you have to get “here” without actually having any idea or any information just seems like some pretty bad planning to me.

This is an 8-year plan. We will assume that you’re going to want to see incremental increases every single year. Again, without having that baseline, none of this makes sense. Do you see my point? Is this a $100,000 investment or is this a $20 million investment? We don’t know. Is this tripling the amount of food that’s being produced and purchased in Nova Scotia, or is it a 1 per cent increase?

I would think, going through your mandate letter and reading that - I’m sure that you are, and you’ve said a little bit to that extent - I think the most important thing for me would be where are we at now and what kind of job is it. If it’s a 2 or 3 per cent increase over eight years, then it doesn’t seem like a lot, and it really isn’t a lot. If it’s tripling the food production and consumption in Nova Scotia, that’s a lot bigger.

We’re in Budget Estimates right now. The department has seen a small decrease in its budget but has been given potentially a monumental task. I don’t understand how we can develop budgets without actually knowing what it is that we’re trying to do.

I’m not going to, as the expression says, beat a dead horse. I just think that it’s a strange thing to tell someone that you have to reach a certain level without knowing what level you’re actually at.

One of the issues that we’re going to - and we are running into right now, and it says in your minister’s mandate letter, “Examine policies and programs to reduce costs of healthy foods for consumers.” If you talk with any farmers, they’ll tell you that it’s difficult to make money. I’m sure you’ve been in touch with a lot of them. I know a few of the organizations that you’ve talked to. The reception has been quite good - eight months in, they think that you’re doing a great job.

One of the issues that we’re facing right now with inflation is that the cost of everything is going through the roof. Let’s be honest here. What they’ve told us - and I’m sure they’ve told you - is the input costs are continuing to rise exponentially, so purchasing fertilizer, equipment, labour, fuel. I spoke to someone today who depends on fuel, it’s not agriculture but what that gentleman told me for his business is that just the cost over the last few months is a $220,000 cost on his bottom line. So you take that and you are seeing massive increases, and shortages, fertilizer shortages and things like that.

That cost is going to be passed down, it has to be. They are barely making money now. Do you actually believe that you can meet this mandate, with prices ballooning the way they are on everything? What are the policies and programs that you are examining?

Again I’ll go to baseline, do you have a baseline cost of what people are actually spending on healthy food right now? You want to reduce that cost, so what is that cost to consumers right now? A lot of questions - sorry.

GREG MORROW: Can I ask the member to clarify between cost to consumer and cost of production?

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Thanks for the idea, we’ll do both. I should have done that.

GREG MORROW: In terms of cost of production, one of the things we’re doing is investing, helping producers invest in climate change adaptation. One example would be the Dalhousie clean tech project, a $5 million fund that would help with solar programs, wind programs, that sort of thing, that would drive down the cost for producers.

For the cost to consumers, obviously there’s many different factors that go into the final price tag that someone would pay at the grocery store. In terms of agriculture costs our department is looking at many different ways to help reduce those costs to consumers.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: So respectfully, the question was, what’s the baseline, not what programs or not what you’re going to do.

Your mandate letter literally says that you are going to reduce costs of healthy foods for consumers. So the Progressive Conservative Party has been in power for seven months now. Prices have skyrocketed. Is the base value the cost of chicken now or is it when you got in? Is the cost of a bag of apples now or is it when you got in?

These are all great words, but without having a baseline and actual numbers, there’s no way to actually prove that you’ve met your targets. Let’s say that tomorrow the price of bread decreases for factors that are out of your control but it’s still not to where it was seven months ago - is that a win?

Again I ask, what is the baseline? What is the average, seven months ago when you first got in, what is the average cost to a Nova Scotian family - because you can find that online, it’s pretty simple to find - what is the average cost of food to a Nova Scotian family? What was the average cost seven months ago for a mid-size farmer in Nova Scotia, what is their average cost? That’s not hard to find. All these are available through Statistics Canada, or even just talk to the associations.

I attended a meeting years ago of pig farmers, of all things. I don’t know anything about pig farmers, but I went down there and met with them, and they told me to a T what their costs were. So again, I’m looking for baselines from seven months ago.

GREG MORROW: We are working with other departments on determining these costs because it’s not just agriculture. We’re reviewing existing programs and policies with these other departments and we’re trying to pull the number from seven months ago to today. We’d be happy to share that information.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I’ll move on to the loyalty program. I’ve been through three campaigns now - campaign promises and what actually happens right away are different at times. I think once you get into government you realize that some of this stuff is really difficult, like you say, we’re going to fix health care, we’re going to do this and do that, but when you get in there there’s more to it than meets the eye.

The Nova Scotia Loyal program was one that we heard about a lot during the campaign. I’ll be quite frank with you - I didn’t hear a single small business ask for it. When I spoke to small businesses nobody said, do you know what I need? I need another AIR MILES program, I need another loyalty program.

I think there has been a lot of confusion about that program. I’ll start with when this is rolled out, how are you going to keep track of it? How does small business keep track of it?

There’s obviously going to be a cost to small businesses, whether it’s equipment or paperwork or accounting or something. My question is: Is it the small businesses that will be collecting this data, and how will they be collecting the data?

GREG MORROW: To the member, that program is being led by Economic Development and I would defer questions to the minister when she takes a seat, which is very soon, I think.

[6:30p.m.]

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: That’s a good minister right there, I’ll tell you. That’s a good answer because people don’t know that she’s sitting in this room.

Did you consult with the farming community on this? Did you consult with the local community food sellers? Did you consult with the blueberry industry, did you consult with the Honeycrisp industry on this loyalty program?

GREG MORROW: I can’t speak for what went into the development of the campaign, the platform items. What I will say is that a key piece of the buy local initiative feeds into the Nova Scotia Loyal program, and I’m hearing lots of excitement from member organizations that I’m meeting with who are excited to be part of the buy local initiative and, as a result, be part of the Nova Scotia Loyal program.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I’ll move on to a different topic and leave that for a different minister.

One of the things that you said in your opening statement is that we had welcomed 2,000 temporary foreign workers into Nova Scotia to work our fields and help with the agricultural industry, and I don’t know where we’d be without them, to be frank. You said Nova Scotia was a better place for foreign workers to come. My question around the foreign workers is: We’re in the middle of a housing crisis, where were they housed, or how were they being housed? Is that being dealt with before they come here?

Also, when it comes to vaccine rate, obviously I’m not talking about individuals, but overall - and when they’re coming in - how does it work now? If they’re coming in now and they test positive for COVID-19, what is being done, and what’s being done in some of the areas? We’re seeing in places like Bridgewater and the Valley, there’s no housing. What’s happening on those two fronts?

GREG MORROW: I guess to the first question, around housing. These workers live on farms in buildings that farmers provide, bunkhouses and that sort of thing. They are responsible for housing them.

As far as the federal requirements, the federal requirements are in place if one is to test positive. I know that speaking of last year, these workers would be housed in hotels in Halifax and other areas as well while they waited out their isolation.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: What’s the average pay for a temporary foreign worker in the agricultural industry?

GREG MORROW: That number would depend on an individual farm. Whether it be a dairy farm or a berry farm, it would start at minimum wage and some farms would offer a top-up on top of that.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: So Nova Scotia has opened its border to alcohol beverage producers from other provinces to sell them here and they sell them directly to Nova Scotians. Fortunately this hasn’t been reciprocated across Canada for Nova Scotia producers. It kind of seems unfair - we’ll let you sell but we can’t sell to you.

Also, with the recent permit changes this has a compounding effect, and it impacts on the Nova Scotia wine industry. Honestly, interprovincial trade continues to be an obstacle for the growth of local Canadian wine, and we have world-renowned wine, as the minister stated and we all know that.

What is happening to take down those interprovincial barriers for our wine industry?

GREG MORROW: There are a number of different initiatives under way, but I guess ultimately that wouldn’t fall under our department.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: While it doesn’t fall under your department, it is an extremely important topic for your stakeholders. We’re talking about millions and millions of dollars that are not going into the hands of Nova Scotians.

On the topic of wine, are the minister and the government considering allowing the sales of Nova Scotia wine in grocery stores?

GREG MORROW: I’ll always advocate for members of the industry and stakeholders. I know through conversations with winemakers that that’s something they’ve certainly asked for. I would defer to IGA, that falls under their jurisdiction.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: My colleagues at the grocery store IGA? No, that’s showing your age when you say IGA.

I want to go back to your mandate letter. You said you had to have a timeline for completion done within 90 days. I think it’s very important. We’ve heard time and time again in the first seven months that this was a government of action and things are going to get done and they’re going to get done quickly.

The Premier very specifically added timelines to your mandate letters. So you have a timeline to have this stuff completed - not to have it completed within 90 days but to have a timeline set forward of how this will roll out and when it will roll out and when it will be completed.

Correct me if I’m wrong - I think it’s fair to say that with no baseline, so no starting point, the timeline that was supposed to be done in the 90 days was probably a little more difficult than first anticipated by one government, and you were not able to complete those timelines - am I right or wrong?

GREG MORROW: It’s the draft plans that have to be implemented in 90 days, four years to achieve those.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Further to that, you had a quarterly update on timelines that was due March 17^th - was that timeline modified?

GREG MORROW: Yes, we’ve met that timeline and that information will be available when all the departments are in line.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I can argue that - the timeline hasn’t been met because it’s April 4^th and nothing has been released yet, nothing has publicly been released yet. I don’t think those timelines have been met - unless it was March 17, 2023. When do you expect that information to be made public?

GREG MORROW: That will be a joint decision by all departments, and we’ll check with them, follow up with them.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: That’s a great crossover, a joint decision.

Let’s talk cannabis. We know that we’ve seen in other jurisdictions, and I’ll use Colorado for an example, within the first eight years since they’ve legalized it, they’ve pulled in $12 billion. They obviously have a different framework from Nova Scotia - theirs is privatized and ours isn’t, through the NSLC. We do know that the department did spend some time in Colorado, speaking to individuals in Colorado about that.

Where were we at last year for marijuana sales?

[6:45 p.m.]

GREG MORROW: The number in 2021 for farm cash receipts for cannabis was $51.3 million.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Thank you for that number. When I speak to - obviously, I think most people will agree that the legalization of marijuana was long overdue, especially the decriminalization of it. This is me up on my podium now but throwing people in jail for having a substance that’s - anyway, I won’t get into it.

What I would like to ask is - I know one of the reasons the federal government decided to legalize marijuana was access. Not that I’ve ever bought marijuana before - no. What I heard, you used to buy it from apartments and go to people’s houses and different things, different ways. They wanted to legalize it, I think, definitely to remove some of that money from nefarious and illegal operations. I would say the biggest complaint I hear from people is access. In the community I represent, there’s not a single marijuana dispensary in the entire community. We’re looking at 30,000 people. There was - remember we had that gray moment there where shops popped up all over the place and people were selling? There were a couple in the community.

What’s happening, I think, is those individuals who are buying marijuana or weed or whatever are continuing to buy weed the same way. I would say the $51 million is just a small drop in the bucket. I remember reading a study that, per capita, more people smoke marijuana or weed in Nova Scotia than anywhere else in Canada. I was kind of blown away with that.

My question is - are we looking to expand to other communities, or are you looking to do kind of a hybrid model, which is what we’ve done with alcohol? I look in my community, there are corner stores with alcohol in them. They have their own little NSLC shop. Are you looking to expand that? I think there are still a lot of Nova Scotians who are buying it illegally - and probably, there’s a risk to that.

GREG MORROW: Mx. Chair, the member will love this - I will defer to the Finance and Treasury Board Minister, as he is responsible for the cannabis sales policy.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: The Finance and Treasury Board Minister does not seem like a pot smoker, but I’ll ask him anyway.

Let’s take the money out of it, then - are you looking at different models to sell the product?

GREG MORROW: That still would fall under the sales policy, which is a purview of the Finance and Treasury Board Minister.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: As Minister of Agriculture, it is a significant source of income for farmers in Nova Scotia, and a lot of people argue that Nova Scotia actually has a really good climate for the production of marijuana. As Minister of Agriculture, this would definitely be extra money into those farmers’ pockets and potentially jobs created in the agricultural industry - is this something you see yourself advocating for?

THE CHAIR: Just before I recognize the honourable minister, I want to say that I would prefer that we maintain a certain level of parliamentary decorum and not refer to, or speculate on, people’s cannabis consumption.

GREG MORROW: I wouldn’t take a policy direction on cannabis where it’s federally regulated.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: It is federally regulated, but it is up to the provinces to sell and distribute. That’s the difference. That’s why you see different models. I think British Columbia is privatized. We do have hybrid models. To say that it’s up to the federal government is quite honestly not true. It’s up to the federal government from a legal standpoint, but it’s up to the provincial government to distribute and sell. It’s in the purview of this government to privatize it, make it hybrid, or keep it as is.

My question is again: As Minister of Agriculture, I’m not asking you about the financial side of it. I’ve heard from farmers, and I’ve heard from individuals who see this as potentially an add-on to what they’re already doing - is this something that you would advocate for?

GREG MORROW: Mx. Chair, I would say in general that I’d advocate for anything that would benefit our producers in the province. Again, at the end of the day, the cannabis sales policy falls under the Department of Finance and Treasury Board.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Mx. Speaker. Let’s move on to dikes.

On the recently announced plan for the 35 kilometres of dikes protecting the link between Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, it was budgeted $190 million to $300 million. Do you have a more specific cost on this? How concerned are you with the rising cost of everything and how it will impact the $190 million to $300 million? Do you have a built-in float on that - if $300 million is the price tag, is there a little give there of 10 per cent, 5 per cent, 25 per cent over cost?

GREG MORROW: Mx. Chair, this is a preliminary estimate, and we know that we are facing certain costs due to COVID-19 and other issues. We’ll continue to work with our colleagues in the Department of Public Works on this.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Again, we go back to baselines and cost. The federal government seems to be messaging that they’re going to cover 50 per cent of the cost for this with Nova Scotia and New Brunswick bearing the rest of the cost. I think it would be extremely important to come up with a cost so that we know what the ask is from the federal government.

Have you already started the work and, if you have, when do you expect a total cost for this work to be priced out and when will it be released to the public?

GREG MORROW: Mx. Chair, we started with 10 options and narrowed it down to three. Again, these are very preliminary estimates at this point, but we’ll continue to work with our colleagues and have those conversations with our federal counterparts as well.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic, with four minutes remaining.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: With the federal government covering 50 per cent and New Brunswick and Nova Scotia having to cover the rest, do you know what the percentage of the cost will be for Nova Scotians?

GREG MORROW: This is obviously an important initiative. We haven’t nailed down the percentage of what each province will pay, but we’ll continue to have those discussions.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I have so many more questions, but I think I’m going to cut off the Liberal questions at an hour.

I do want to recognize the minister and the answers you gave. I want to thank you for those. I also recognize your department and the staff. I think sometimes that the Department of Agriculture gets overlooked with some of the bigger departments, but it’s extremely important and the work that you’re doing over the next few years is going to be extremely important for Nova Scotians. I wish you all the best of luck. Thank you.

THE CHAIR: That concludes the time for questions from the Official Opposition at this point.

I am going to call for a 10-minute recess at which time the time for questions will begin for the NDP and the Chair will change. Thank you.

[6:57 p.m. The subcommittee recessed.]

[7:07 p.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]

THE CHAIR: Order. The time is now 7:07 p.m. It’s time for the NDP caucus.

The honourable member for Halifax Citadel-Sable Island.

LISA LACHANCE: Great. Thanks for being here today and being available to answer questions. I certainly appreciate it. I have a number of questions, so I’ll just get started and we’ll see where we get to in the time allotted.

I met with some of the producer organizations around a general update, but one of the things that they brought to my attention is that throughout COVID-19 their agricultural insurance programs often weren’t able to be accessed. Basically, some of the challenges with COVID-19 fell between the cracks.

There were a couple of things that people raised to me. One is that there used to be a different kind of emergency response office at the department, one that they felt perhaps was more effective. My question is: Is there an intent to review the emergency response capacity in the department and have you been working with the poultry and pork sectors who, I think, are developing their own emergency response plans? What’s the plan going forward?

GREG MORROW: Mr. Chair, to the member, thank you for the question. I think of one example of how the department has helped our producers, specifically chicken through the avian influenza. We’ve followed the lead of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.

Through our Chief Veterinary Officer, Dr. Wilma Schenkels, who has done great work, we’ve engaged with members of the industry on ways to mitigate any problems they faced and work on implementing biosecurity measures and collaborating for any improvements that they may see that would help them in the future.

LISA LACHANCE: Yes, as we know, that’s the response that has been over the last couple of months in terms of responding to avian flu being reported in the province.

I wanted to go back to COVID-19. My understanding is that there were some concerns about folks’ ability to access emergency support. Is there an emergency response office within the department? Have you done a review of the COVID-19 response and where there may be gaps?

GREG MORROW: Mr. Chair, through the department, Perennia has engaged with industry stakeholders on various COVID-19 programs. Just for some context, some numbers, we had 150 applications through the COVID-19 agriculture response and paid out a little more than $1.6 million.

LISA LACHANCE: I’m happy to try and move away from this question soon, but I’m still curious – is there an emergency response office that producers can contact at the Department of Agriculture right now in Nova Scotia?

GREG MORROW: While there is no specific emergency response department, our extension teams are constantly working with producers, our business development officers, and our veterinarians.

LISA LACHANCE: One of the other things that has been brought to my attention has been that there are three vacant seats on the Natural Products Marketing Council. Folks have expressed that they’re eager to see those filled and not understanding why there has been such a holdup. I’m wondering if the minister could provide an update.

GREG MORROW: There were some delays due to a number of factors, including the election, to getting those filled. Certainly, I’ve heard those concerns as well when I meet with industry. We are in the process of getting them filled sooner rather than later, hopefully.

LISA LACHANCE: Could you provide an approximate timeline of when industry can expect that?

GREG MORROW: Mr. Chair, we do have one member in the process, and we are looking for more applicants. If the member opposite has a suggestion of people who are interested, I would certainly encourage her to reach out to the department.

LISA LACHANCE: What does the department plan to do to advertise those continued opportunities?

[7:15 p.m.]

GREG MORROW: These appointments to our agency - these would fall under normal government process through our agencies, boards, and commissions, through the government websites. The Nova Scotia Federation of Agriculture helps. Industry associations are involved.

LISA LACHANCE: I do want to move on, but I would strongly suggest not to leave it, necessarily. If you haven’t had applicants come through the regular channels, then that suggests to me a need to do further target outreach. But I want to move on from that question.

The member for Halifax Atlantic asked quite a few questions around the 20 per cent consumption of local food by 2030 goal. As I understand it, that same goal existed in the previous Act and was not met.

I’m not sure there are any more questions that can be constructively asked around how the 20 per cent was set, except that it had already been set. I’m curious if that triggers any memories of how 20 per cent was originally chosen for 2020 and now 20 per cent for 2030. Looking at that, wouldn’t that suggest, perhaps, that either we’re not very ambitious or we didn’t set the goal the first time, or what happened?

Within the department, has there been a review of the work towards that previous goal under the previous Act that might inform the work for this goal under this new Act?

GREG MORROW: We recognize and realize that there were gaps in the previous goals, based on the previous Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act, that weren’t achieved to date. We’re looking forward to the new goal of 2030.

LISA LACHANCE: I’ll just restate one question that I previously asked and then ask a new question.

Was there any evaluation or review done of previous Department of Agriculture efforts under the previous Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act? Maybe I’ll just leave it at that.

GREG MORROW: The old goal could not be duplicated in methods. The data sources were no longer available every year. We have new expert data that’s being looked into.

LISA LACHANCE: Just to be clear, that actually wasn’t what I was talking about when I talked about evaluation and review. What I really wanted to know was what program evaluations, which would be different from looking at whether the goal can be reset or not. Did you evaluate initiatives that you undertook in the first round in terms of everything from some high-level quantitative data, but also qualitative data, working with producers. Anyway, that’s my question, actually around evaluation of programs, but I’ll leave that there.

The previous Act also had a goal to increase the number of local farms by 5 per cent by 2020, and I don’t think that goal was met, but I’m wondering why there was not a similar goal included in EGCCRA that was passed this past Fall.

GREG MORROW: Farms are changing and the numbers don’t represent impacts or value. There are a number of larger farms now.

LISA LACHANCE: Maybe I could ask the minister to continue along in that vein. Was there a conscious choice made not to include that goal in EGCCRA this past Fall? I wasn’t quite sure what you said. You said that maybe larger farms are increasing, or smaller farms? Maybe you can talk a bit about - has the number of farms in Nova Scotia increased or decreased? What can you tell me about the size or characteristics of the farms?

GREG MORROW: There are different criteria for registration than under the last government, so we’re re-evaluating the criteria with the Federation of Agriculture. The number of farms is down, but there are many small farms still.

LISA LACHANCE: From the registration information, you’re not able to talk about the ratio between large to smaller farms and how that’s determined? Or could you?

GREG MORROW: We do have that data, but we don’t have it with us, but we’d be happy to provide it.

LISA LACHANCE: That would be great, thank you. In terms of looking at the actual departmental budget, just at a quick glance, there’s not very much growth built into the budget. In fact, the budget is relatively stagnant over the fiscal plan. I’m just wondering what that means in terms of dealing with increasing costs through inflation. What’s the plan for the departmental budget? Will there be programs that are in fact cut?

GREG MORROW: The number would appear to be down because of the separation, the realignment with the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture. We actually have more money for agriculture and agriculture programs. These programs are federally negotiated and we are in our last year of that agreement, and we’ll be advocating for funding for these programs going forward in the next five-year plan.

LISA LACHANCE: Just to make it easy, can you quantify what the increase is on the remaining agricultural mandate?

GREG MORROW: One addition to the budget is the AgriStability program amendments that total $261,000.

LISA LACHANCE: So is the total increase on the agriculture side then - $261,000? Is that for this coming year? Is that over a span of three or four years?

GREG MORROW: It’s a total of $871,000 coming in, specifically to the AgriStability program amendments. The $261,000 is for one year, but we will be renegotiating that as well.

LISA LACHANCE: I’ll continue with some questions around numbers. Earlier you provided a great list of amazing-sounding programs to support Indigenous and African Nova Scotian involvement in the agriculture sector - which ones are current? Could you tell us in the coming year how much will be spent supporting - if you can separate the two communities that would be great but, otherwise, just in general - those programs that you talked about?

GREG MORROW: For example, the Black Youth Development and Mentorship Program includes the $15,000 in salary costs. The scholarships that I mentioned are four-month internships, with $5,000. The loan programs have a total of half a million dollars from the Department of Agriculture.

[7:30 p.m.]

LISA LACHANCE: I also wanted to ask about what you know around women who want to get into farming. Are there any initiatives supporting women who want to become producers? Likewise, I’m also curious about the 2SLGBTQ+ community. Are there any specialized resources available for those who want to join the farming industry, the agriculture industry?

GREG MORROW: While there are no specific programs, a number of the programs women would fall under. Women are a target area under the Canadian Agricultural Partnership and part of the Next Policy Framework. Our extension specialists have had those discussions and are looking at ways to develop programs that make it more accessible for women to become involved and support all entrants.

LISA LACHANCE: Just to clarify, right now, there is no gender analysis done on any of the programs, but you are developing a gender-responsive program under CAP. When will the results of your analysis be available?

GREG MORROW: The programs would fall under the Next Policy Framework, so that would be in the next year, but again, our extension officers are working with women to find programs and find ways to make entry into the field more accessible to them.

LISA LACHANCE: I’m always interested in making sure that we’re making policy and program decisions based on evidence and the best available evidence from practice, from lived experience, from research, and I think that requires a lot more than having conversations with folks, to be really blunt.

I think that establishing some kind of framework, whether we can base it on work happening in other Canadian jurisdictions or other places in the world, to then go out and facilitate generative conversations that actually give us a sense of what, within the mandate of the Department of Agriculture might be feasible. But I understand that perhaps there’s no framework. We’re just talking about people having - is there any gender training in the department?

GREG MORROW: Regional services has a diversity and inclusion action plan.

LISA LACHANCE: Is that action plan available publicly?

GREG MORROW: It’s not something that’s available publicly, but we can look into finding about releasing pieces of it.

LISA LACHANCE: So without having access to that, I can’t speculate, but are there goals set? I guess I’m wondering what research analysis has gone into developing the action plan.

GREG MORROW: We don’t have any number of specific goals, but we have a number of objectives that we’re trying to achieve.

LISA LACHANCE: Well, if I could maybe have a look at that action plan, I would certainly be very interested. I do think - from my experience working in the public sector - having an action plan without specific goals, you really can’t measure where you’re coming from, and you can’t measure where you’re going.

I think that sounds like some issues that you’re grappling with in other areas, in terms of consumption of local foods and other areas. I guess I would just encourage the department to develop, if it’s not available yet in different areas, strong metrics so that we can actually measure progress.

Just to confirm, in the equity action plan is there any consideration of the 2SLGBTQ+ community?

GREG MORROW: Our data would come from labour market statistics, historical analysis, census of agriculture data, conversation with producers - it’s not broken down by specific communities.

LISA LACHANCE: I’m going to switch gears. We spoke last week in Question Period about farmers’ markets in Nova Scotia. I think Nova Scotia had amazing farmers’ markets before COVID-19, and they’ve certainly demonstrated their flexibility and vitality throughout COVID-19 in terms of making sure they could get producers’ goods out to consumers in ways that were creative and safe.

The farmers’ markets of Nova Scotia did ask the department for a one-time emergency infusion of funds to support their members, who have really taken on a lot of extra work without, necessarily, extra revenue or extra support. I understand that that request was denied by the minister.

I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about why that request was denied and what your vision is for farmers’ markets in Nova Scotia.

GREG MORROW: We, as a department, wouldn’t cover insurance or damage as a result of winter storms that occurred in January and February for farmers’ markets, but in the letter back, we did make a list of a number of partnerships where we’ve provided support to farmers’ markets across the province. I’d be happy to share that with you if the member hasn’t seen it already.

LISA LACHANCE: Thank you. I would like to see that.

To go back to my second question - what is your vision for farmers’ markets in Nova Scotia?

GREG MORROW: Farmers’ markets are going to be an important partner in moving forward with a number of initiatives that we have in the department. We’ve had some introductory conversations and look forward to continuing with those and having them as a partner at the table.

LISA LACHANCE: Perhaps you can talk a bit about what some of those initiatives are. I’m also interested in the question that I previously had the opportunity to ask in Question Period around farmers’ markets being charged commercial rates by Nova Scotia Power. Will you be making a legislative amendment in this session?

GREG MORROW: That situation was brought to my attention and we’ve discussed that as a government. I’ve had different conversations with my colleague in the Department of Natural Resources and Renewables, who handles the file on Nova Scotia Power. We’re looking at a number of options to alleviate that pressure.

LISA LACHANCE: Just to go back to my other question, what are some of the initiatives that you’re intending to undertake in the coming fiscal year to support farmers’ markets?

GREG MORROW: We’ve given $165,000 to farmers’ markets over two years. In terms of specific initiatives, it’s too early to get into those right now. Again, we’ve had introductory meetings with the farmers’ markets association and they’re working with our Buy Local NS teams on moving forward. We have a number of projects under review.

Just to go back to the question about Nova Scotia Power, I neglected to mention that I’ve connected my energy manager to the farmers’ markets to look at, in addition to what we might do as a government, more energy efficient ways to reduce some of those costs.

LISA LACHANCE: I will just say that I find it concerning that you’re saying it’s too early to talk about initiatives that I presume you’ve made budget allocations for. I’m just wondering how, without knowing what you were funding, did you put forward a departmental estimate?

GREG MORROW: We have blanket budget allocations and it wouldn’t be fair to our farmers’ market partners to specify what that may be.

LISA LACHANCE: From my time in government, I will say I’m surprised that a Progressive Conservative government would put some money in without knowing where it was going, especially when money is tight. That is very surprising. I’m wondering what the plan is for planning it and reporting it.

I’ve worked with the Nova Scotia government. I know there’s a commitment to results-based management. You talk about what your results are and your vision and then how you’re going to get there and only then do you talk about the money. I want to know how you filled out your budget with blanket allocations.

GREG MORROW: There are many different stakeholders involved and a number of different programs that we’d be looking at. We have different contracts with different partners, so it would be too early.

[7:45 p.m.]

LISA LACHANCE: I know I am new to this process from this side of the table, but I think if you have contracts then it shouldn’t be too early to answer questions about what they’re for. I’ll leave that with you and try and get on to a few more questions.

I’m wondering what in the budget is allocated to better support young farmers, and also our first-generation farmers, so farmers who want to enter the industry.

GREG MORROW: The FarmNext Program provides $30,000 for new farmers. There are specific micro-loan programs as well for the Nova Scotia Farm Loan Board. These are negotiated through our agreements with the federal government in our Next Policy Framework, and we can continue to advocate for those programs. The new ones would be under the Next Policy Framework.

LISA LACHANCE: Can you provide an estimate of how many young farmers you would anticipate supporting this year with those avenues?

GREG MORROW: Approximate numbers, but for the FarmNext Program we had five applicants and seven for the micro-loan programs.

LISA LACHANCE: I wanted to jump back to one of the programs you referenced in your opening remarks, the “We Talk. We Grow.” initiative. I’m also aware of this program. It seems really important to think about the mental health of agricultural producers as well as folks living in rural areas.

I know from my research in mental health that actually two of the major national mental health initiatives in Ireland and Australia really started because of the crisis in the mental health of rural farmers. In Australia that was particularly linked to climate change disasters that had happened in the agricultural industry, so folks having to cull their entire herds, and that sort of thing, because of drought.

I’m wondering if you can clarify: Is this a program going forward? Is there continued funding from the department? What sort of evaluation or measurement was done on what has already been implemented?

GREG MORROW: I’ve indicated my continued support for the Farm Safety Nova Scotia advisory board through the Nova Scotia Federation of Agriculture. They gather the data and as well, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, make sure the department’s frontline extension staff have been trained in mental health first aid so they can provide clients with the information on the available resources that are out there.

LISA LACHANCE: One of the gaps for producers in the province - and certainly friends of mine who have tried to enter different industries have found this too - is the means to process and refine products, so commercial kitchens, abattoirs, processing facilities, and marketing support. I’m wondering what investments the Department of Agriculture is making in this coming year to support the industry to expand their capacity beyond those bottlenecks.

GREG MORROW: We have dedicated programs to help with those various groups that the member mentioned, including technologies for value-added agriculture. We had 20 applications in 2021 for a total of $264,000.

LISA LACHANCE: Thank you so much for your time here tonight answering my questions. I’m going to leave the rest of my time to the honourable member for Cumberland North.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Cumberland North. The time now is 7:54 p.m.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: How much time would you like me to leave for closing comments and statement?

GREG MORROW: One minute would be fine.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: Cumberland County is a large agricultural area. I’m very proud of our farming heritage. Of course, one of the biggest topics right now is the price of diesel. I’m wondering if the department is working with other departments on ways to possibly help alleviate the pressures on our farmers.

GREG MORROW: We’re always working with different departments to make things easier for our farmers. I would go back to the environmental programs we have in place that help reduce costs for those producers, whether it be solar programs, wind programs, those sorts of things. We’re constantly working with other departments.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: I know I pumped my own gas yesterday in my truck, and I was - usually the price of gas and diesel are somewhat comparable, but right now the price of diesel is over $2 a litre.

Anyway, it doesn’t sound like there are any plans, but certainly I would want to just share that it is one of the concerns that’s been brought to me by local farmers. Depending on what happens with Ukraine and Russia and the geopolitical pressures on diesel and gas, it’s something to consider that’s going to be difficult for our farmers moving forward.

Cumberland has approximately 30 per cent of the arable farmland. I’d love to just put a little plug in. Historically, we used to have farm reps, or ag reps we used to call them. I still remember ours. He’d just stop in to say hi and to see if there was anything we needed. I grew up on a dairy farm.

A lot of farmers - I know you have great people working in your department; there’s no question there - it’s just that a lot of farmers are missing that personal connection with the department. Over the last decade, for sure, Cumberland was serviced out of Truro. Even though the person in Truro was responsible to cover Cumberland, I was told that within a 12-month period they had only visited Cumberland on two occasions.

Of course, going back to the fact that we have 30 per cent of the arable farmland, I believe our farmers in our area can be a large part of your success in moving forward, especially with improving and increasing local food production. You don’t have to answer right now, or you can try. I just wanted to let you know that we would love to have more representation from your department. I think you’d get a good outcome for that investment. It’s something that our local farmers would be craving.

We do have large producers, but we do also have this real strong movement of smaller, many organic farmers. There’s an incredible movement. We have a local program called Eat Local Cumberland. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it or not. We have two employees right now. One is working on a local food hub project, and the other is working more with local community gardens and with schools for education. They recently, on Saturday, had an event called Seedy Saturday. It had people from all over sharing different seeds that they have grown, and they were sharing.

They asked me - they said: Elizabeth, right now we’re being funded through Job Creation Partnerships, and that ends, so is there any provincial funding, any way of continuing our work and that our salaries - in order to have sustainability for this program and project.

Would there be any funding for non-profits like Eat Local Cumberland to ensure that we can continue the great work that’s started?

[8:00 p.m.]

GREG MORROW: In regard to the first question, the department has five agricultural representatives across the province, they’re known as extension officers, but they essentially fill the same role. There’s a lot of concern that we don’t have agricultural representatives, but these people do essentially the same job. We also have business development officers who are always keen to meet and explore.

I can tell the member that one of the things I’m always encouraged by when I go to visit a farm is the relationship that the producer has with our extension officers. Those relationships are strong, they are in place, and they are willing to work to make life easier for them. That will continue, regardless of what the position is called.

In regard to the second question, we’ll certainly reach out, related to our food strategy, to see if there are any connections that can be made there.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: I know that a previous member already asked about the Chignecto Isthmus. While I’m here I wanted to ask - I’ve got a lot of local experts on the Isthmus - one of the questions that one asked me to ask - he has farmland that is currently being flooded I guess due to the failing aboiteau on the Missaguash River - it’s around the Mount Whatley Road area. I gave him a copy of the report to study once it was released. He is very concerned about the potential timeline of 10 years before the dike work would be done.

He said there was some discussion with the minister’s department on taking the exact same engineering plans that were used with the aboiteau on the LaPlanche River, which I think was replaced about five years ago. It’s functioning very well, the local farmers are really happy with it. His suggestion to me was to ask you, could they take those same engineering plans and get the work started on the Missaguash River where that aboiteau needs to be replaced, rather than waiting between five to 10 years to get all of the dike work done, could that aboiteau be replaced soon?

GREG MORROW: With the new Fisheries and Coastal Resources Act in 2019 it would make replicating that very difficult. We’ll continue to work with our partners on that, on both sides of the provincial boundary, and follow the Public Works lead on that file.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: One of the recommendations of this local farmer was he thought that your department would have most of the knowledge in government around dikes and aboiteaux and I guess wanted me to ensure that this government is using the expertise that we have in government and assured me that that was in your department. I’m assuming that your department will work closely with Public Works. Can you give us an assurance that that will happen?

GREG MORROW: I’ve got a lot of expertise to my left here, in Mr. Bekkers. I can certainly assure the member opposite that there’s a lot of collaboration between the different departments, Agriculture and Public Works in Nova Scotia, in New Brunswick, and again, working with our federal counterparts. There is a lot of expertise in the departments that are at the table on this one.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: I think my time is up. I want to make sure I give you time for your last statement, so my last little plug, just 10 seconds, is I would love to see some work around greenhouses, not just commercial, but for the department to consider how we could support, subsidize, tax credit, anything at all to support more residential greenhouses, so that individual families could be growing their own local food 12 months of the year. Just wanted to put that little plug in. I’ll leave the rest of the time for you.

GREG MORROW: Thanks to the members from both parties and our Independent member for their questions. Thank you to all my staff for all their hard work and late nights. They were ready to go Wednesday, and here we are on Monday, but certainly appreciate all their hard work.

THE CHAIR: Shall Resolution E2 stand?

Resolution E2 stands.

Meeting adjourned. We’re going to call for a 10-minute recess.

[8:07 p.m. The committee recessed.]

[8:15 p.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]

THE CHAIR: Order, please. The Subcommittee on Supply will come to order. It is now 8:15 p.m. The Subcommittee is meeting to consider the Estimates for the Department of Economic Development, as outlined in Resolution E5.

Resolution E5 – Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $96,529,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Economic Development, pursuant to the Estimate.

THE CHAIR: I now invite the minister to make opening remarks for up to one hour and, if they wish to introduce their staff to the subcommittee they can do so.

The honourable Minister of Economic Development.

HON. SUSAN CORKUM-GREEK: Thank you for this opportunity to speak about the 2022-23 Budget of the Department of Economic Development. I am very pleased to be here today and to answer questions about the department.

To begin, I would like to introduce a few of the people who are with me. Joining me, to my right, is Louise Comeau, director of financial advisory services at Finance and Treasury Board, supporting the Department of Economic Development. To my left, Deputy Minister Scott Farmer. As well with us tonight we have staff from Economic Development and senior staff from our department’s Crown corporations, a group of people whom, collectively, I am very privileged to work with.

Mr. Chair, I’d like to start by outlining the work of the Department of Economic Development. Economic Development is about creating opportunity, opportunity for every Nova Scotian. Our work is broad, running the gamut from programs that encourage entrepreneurship to helping grow entire sectors of our economy. It encompasses businesses large and small, major employers to mom-and-pop shops, sole proprietorships, even micro-businesses. It spans the urban and rural environments, traditional industries, and the products and services of tomorrow. Properly done, it inspires, empowers, and lifts up communities.

It is, as I stated in the Legislature last Fall, ensuring a certain amount of ribbing from colleagues - particularly in Opposition - for some time to come, the ministry of possibilities. My role is to help make the possible probable, achievable, and dare we dream, reliable. Nova Scotia and Nova Scotians have what it takes to succeed.

Members on all side of the House agree that our province has tremendous potential. Right now, Nova Scotia is growing because people from other provinces and nations can see it too. At Economic Development we are determined to unlock that potential.

Together with our Crown corporations, Nova Scotia Business Inc., Innovacorp, Events East, and Develop Nova Scotia, as well as Invest Nova Scotia, our work focuses on creating the conditions for businesses to thrive and creating an economy in which all Nova Scotians can participate, contribute, and benefit.

A key part of our work is collaboration, whether it is with our colleagues across government, post-secondary institutions, the business community, or social enterprise. We work together to find innovative solutions to our economic challenges and seize opportunities.

I’d like to take a few moments to touch on some of the areas that I’ve been focusing on over the past several months. Over the last two years, Nova Scotia businesses have faced substantial challenges and made many sacrifices for the public good. They have been nimble, finding new and innovative ways of doing business and they did their very best to ensure that Nova Scotians still had access to the products and services we know, need, and love.

As we begin to emerge from the particular challenges posed by the COVID-19 pandemic, we will continue to work with our business community to overcome obstacles and, once again, seize opportunities for growth.

Since becoming Minister of Economic Development I’ve had the pleasure of meeting with many business owners and business leaders from across the province to hear first-hand their experiences, concerns, and ideas. During my regional tour of Cape Breton, I was able to meet with businesses and community leaders one-on-one to get an in-depth look at some of the exciting work happening on the ground. This was also an excellent opportunity to hear about the challenges that businesses were facing, as well as a chance to discuss how we can work together to grow our economy.

I’ve also been lucky to gather in larger settings, albeit usually virtually, with the business community and many of our stakeholders by attending events and more formal meetings such as those with the Halifax Partnership CEO Council and the Nova Scotia Business & Labour Economic Coalition. I’ve even met with the South Queens Chamber of Commerce.

Through these meetings I as minister and my staff have worked to create an open, frank, and ongoing dialogue. We are committed to listening, to gathering feedback, and to working with business and community to identify opportunities as we embark on pandemic recovery.

I can tell you that this direct insight has been invaluable to me because the fact is that it’s businesspeople who know business best, just as it is those who work in a particular sector day in and day out who know that sector best, or those who live and work in a particular region who know best that region’s challenges and related opportunities.

That’s why a key part of growing our economy will be working with communities whether sectoral or geopolitical to support and empower them and, in so doing, create the conditions for growth. To quote directly from my mandate letter, “A brighter future starts with a shared belief in what our province can do. A belief in each other. A belief in our communities. A belief in fellow Nova Scotians.”

For too long we have collectively, if subconsciously, bought into the idea that you had to leave Nova Scotia to prove your mettle, whether that was your professional acumen or your business idea. As a result, many of our would-be best and brightest left, only returning for a nostalgic summer holiday by the sea. The beneficiaries of their talent, innovation, wealth, or job creation were largely elsewhere.

That stops now, Mr. Chair, as our government works to enable entrepreneurs to build their ideas here and show young Nova Scotians, as well as their peers from across Canada, that there are good jobs and great lifestyle opportunities here; promote retraining in support of a just transition away from those industries that no longer serve our planet or collective welfare; and support innovation and investment here at home so that our companies and our people can achieve their greatest potential.

Governments at every level love to talk about innovation. The word is thrown around so much that it begins to lose its meaning; however, at its core, innovation means doing things differently and generally in pursuit of a better outcome.

Looked at in such a way, innovation can be found in every part of Nova Scotia. It’s common among many who work in our resource industries, though they won’t use that word to describe it. Still, whenever a farmer, fisher, or forester comes up with a handy little contraption that saves them work or effort, mechanizes a process, reduces waste, or provides a cost efficiency, that is innovation in action. In some cases, that idea may even be something that could be commercialized.

We know that innovation and sustainability are at the core of any strong economy, that whether a business is large or small, there is always opportunity to become a more innovative and profitable organization. As a province, we have to start investing in ourselves. We have capable and talented people and organizations here, and we know that when companies focus on new or better products or processes, they have better opportunities to succeed.

As a government, we must play a role in helping companies invest in themselves and their employees. It’s been encouraging to see Nova Scotia businesses retool and adapt with that support - companies like Kohltech International in Colchester County, known by its brand name Kohler Windows. Through the Innovation Rebate Program administered by NSBI, Kohltech has undertaken forward-looking investments. Identifying market changes that will see triple-glazed windows become the norm, the company has added a new glass-cutting machine as part of a 30,000-square-foot expansion that has doubled the company’s capacity while also providing for greater precision. Even the company’s door-processing capacity has increased by 33 per cent. Made possible through an $850,000 innovation rebate, this investment has created seven additional full-time jobs, and is expected to increase revenues by almost $20 million.

In Coldbrook, the Scotian Gold Cooperative has developed a new controlled-atmosphere facility that prolongs the storage life of apples through the preprogramming of oxygen and carbon dioxide levels. This system allows Scotian Gold to better access export markets in the EU, and to expand its already dominant share of the U.S. Honeycrisp market from a full 50 per cent to 75 per cent.

Over five years, it’s expected that the company’s volume will increase from 60,000 bins to 87,000 bins. That is nearly 61 million pounds of fruit. Employment will increase by 20 packing days per year, and revenues are projected to increase from $44 million in 2018 to $55.7 million this year - all thanks to a $477,000 innovation rebate.

The pilot Innovation Rebate Programs were instrumental in assisting companies across Nova Scotia to adapt to new opportunities. We know that these programs are important to support businesses as they continue to recover from the pandemic, to evolve, and to grow. That’s why I was so pleased to announce recently that we are making the Innovation Rebate Program a permanent, ongoing program, and committing annual funding of $12 million.

We are focused on investing in solutions that work, and these innovation rebates have a proven track record of success. Participating companies can increase their competitiveness through product development, improvements in production, and greening of waste streams. Going forward, this now-permanent program will help more Nova Scotia businesses adopt new technologies and solutions. It will also advance our government’s priority of helping businesses reduce their carbon footprint and become more sustainable and competitive.

[8:30 p.m.]

My department will continue to focus on innovation-driven, green and sustainable businesses, businesses already here, those that want to locate to our province, and the start-ups of tomorrow.

As we look at our economy we know there is no better way to support sustainability at an individual level than to buy local. All Nova Scotians benefit when we use our collective purchasing power to buy products that are made here at home. That’s why we’ve been steadfast in developing the Nova Scotia Loyal program. This program will create an incentive for Nova Scotians to buy products that are made, manufactured, or substantially produced in Nova Scotia. We know that by encouraging more Nova Scotians to choose local, we will grow our economy and keep more money here at home.

It’s important to understand that Nova Scotia Loyal is both an economic call to action and a consumer incentive program in the retail marketplace. Nova Scotia Loyal will contribute to provincial pride, inspire and invigorate Nova Scotia producers, manufacturers, and consumers, and drive demand for locally made products.

I am pleased to report that work on the Nova Scotia Loyal program is well under way and the department has been coordinating an interdepartmental working approach to ensure our development and implementation of the program is as effective as possible. As we continue to make progress I look forward to sharing more details.

As we work to grow our economy, something that cuts across all sectors and all businesses is the need for high-speed internet. We know that reliable, high-speed internet access for all Nova Scotians cannot come soon enough. It’s a vital service in today’s world and plays a key role in helping communities across our province, but particularly in rural Nova Scotia, to seize economic opportunities and reach their full potential.

New connections are happening daily. With the Nova Scotia Internet Funding Trust projects announced to date, along with independent, municipal-led projects and Bell’s wireless home internet service, we are on track to achieve high-speed internet coverage for 99 per cent of Nova Scotia’s homes and businesses by the end of 2023. The goal is to achieve high-speed internet access for as close to 100 per cent of the remaining homes and businesses as possible.

There are approximately 4,300 underserved or unserved homes and businesses remaining across the province, of which about 1,000 do not have commercial power. To address this, Develop Nova Scotia is actively working with their prequalified service providers on these areas to find solutions and explore different technologies, including satellite. We will continue to work with the Trust and Develop Nova Scotia on both high-speed internet access and satellite options, and we look forward to sharing more updates in the weeks ahead.

Nova Scotia has many comparative advantages, including a highly skilled workforce, a truly unique post-secondary landscape, quality of life, innovation ecosystems, and commitments to the environment. These advantages enable Nova Scotia to attract new companies and more people to our province.

The Department of Economic Development and our Crown corporations will continue to work together to leverage these advantages and attract more businesses to Nova Scotia, again focusing on innovation and sustainability.

We want to ensure the mechanisms government uses to attract investment and businesses are as effective and efficient as possible. That’s why we are reviewing these mechanisms and looking to see if there are gaps or alternatives that can offer greater opportunities. This review will help the development and delivery of new practices which will allow us to encourage more start-ups, attract new companies, and grow the companies already here.

Government is also reviewing 20 of its agencies, offices, and Crown corporations. This review is ongoing and, while I cannot speculate on the outcome, I can tell you that the goal is ultimately to ensure the most effective and accountable methods that achieve results.

This is a great opportunity to look at where we can build our strengths and serve Nova Scotians in the best possible way. I’d like to take this opportunity to touch briefly on the work of our Crown corporations.

Develop Nova Scotia aims to lead the sustainable development of economic and social infrastructure across the province. As mentioned, Develop Nova Scotia is also leading the Internet for Nova Scotia Initiative.

Nova Scotia Business Inc.’s work ranges from helping businesses to grow exports to attracting those innovative, globally competitive companies that we want to establish a business here in Nova Scotia.

Innovacorp works to find, fund, and foster innovative Nova Scotia start-ups through early-stage venture capital that can help drive provincial growth.

Events East Group is a partnership between the Province of Nova Scotia and the Halifax Regional Municipality to manage and operate the Halifax Convention Centre, the Scotiabank Centre, and Ticket Atlantic with a focus on events that drive economic and community vibrancy for our province.

And Invest Nova Scotia is a fund that supports innovative and collaborative projects that improve Nova Scotia’s competitiveness, with a focus on sustainability and economic and social well-being.

Mr. Chair, I’d like to conclude by acknowledging that as we begin to emerge from the COVID-19 pandemic, our province has many exciting opportunities ahead. For the past two years, Nova Scotians have come together, and their strength, perseverance, and creativity have shone through. I know that those same principles will guide us as we move from economic recovery into growth.

Nova Scotia has many distinct advantages and valuable assets, including a competitive economy, plentiful resources, our beautiful coastlines, and a strong commitment to community well-being. Perhaps our most important asset, however, is the people who call Nova Scotia home. Nova Scotians are loyal, sometimes to a fault. We work hard and it’s time we reaped more fully the fruits of our labours by working smarter and more sustainably.

This government has a clear vision for the future of our province. Together, we will design an economy that all Nova Scotians can benefit from.

With that, I’d be happy to take your questions. Thank you.

THE CHAIR: Thank you, minister. According to the practice that has developed in the Legislature, the Opposition caucuses take turns asking questions for approximately one hour. During a caucus turn, the members within a caucus may take turns examining the minister on the Estimate Resolution. Only the minister may answer the questions, and caucuses are also expected to share time fairly with the Independent member.

To begin the examination, I now recognize the Official Opposition. The time is 8:39 p.m. and we’ll conclude at 9:37 p.m. this evening.

The honourable member for Northside-Westmount.

FRED TILLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, minister, for your introduction.

Congratulations on your appointment, as well, to the minister of possibilities - that’s the last time we’ll talk about that tonight.

Congratulations to your staff for getting ready for this great event, for putting your budget together, and helping you to be successful. I know from a staff perspective it’s a lot of time and effort on your behalf, so on behalf of Nova Scotians, thank you for that.

I’ll start my questioning, minister, around the actual overall budget. In this fiscal year, the forecast is significantly higher than previous Estimates and a lot of that would be due to the idea that businesses required a lot of supports while we were in a pandemic. When I look at that, and in your preamble, you mentioned that we’re emerging from the pandemic several times; I’m not so sure about that, and I’m not so sure that businesses aren’t going to require those supports. But we’ll get to that later.

Overall, based on forecast spending for this fiscal year to the Estimate for 2022-23, is a $56-million cut. I’m just wondering if you can give us an idea of where that has come from.

SUSAN CORKUM-GREEK: Your question references a comparison of Estimate to Estimate, and in fact there is a change between those Estimates. If we look at the Estimate for 2021-22, and then the forecast, we will see right there $47,509,000 as being the difference. The reference was made to the idea of support. I’m not sure how to interpret the idea of support, but if we look at $47 million and start subtracting $30.8 million for the Small Business Impact Grant, as an example, which was an initiative of the former government during the lockdown period in the Spring of 2021.

Quickly, we look into some other, what I would call some critical connections, which equally relate to economic recovery. That would be the recent allocation to Halifax International Airport Authority for their air access fund; $6.25 million to the Sydney Airport Authority, to create for the first time an air access fund. For those in the room who may be less familiar, the air access fund that was set up for Halifax International Airport Authority was originally designed to provide funds to incent companies to build the services to international airports and destinations, locations.

What we saw, of course, during COVID-19 was a horrendous impact across the air industry. So these recent investments of money, to once again go back to the drawing board, incent the airlines to bring back flights.

What we recognized was the fact that it was not sensible to build back the international connectivity without first building out the regional and domestic connectivity. That $13 million is open to investments at the discretion of Halifax International Airport Authority, once again with the premise that those working in these industries know their industries best, and why should government tell them how much of a percentage should say go to domestic? As well, there were $8.5 million allocated to the Nova Scotia Internet Funding Trust. This will be a contribution that is earmarked for a satellite hardware program, again delivering on this essential connectivity essential to Nova Scotia’s economic future.

[8:45 p.m.]

There are other projects, but if you start adding up very quickly, in terms of that difference between previous estimates and forecast, you will see that there was a growth in the spending of the Department of Economic Development directly related to supports during COVID-19. Anticipating your follow-up question, there remains, where necessary, we have the capacity and of course, the commitment that we will continue to work with business to identify places where future supports may be necessary.

FRED TILLEY: I think the minister may have misunderstood my question. My question was actually not estimate-to-estimate or forecast-to-estimate, it was why the current estimate is significantly lower than the previous spend in 2021-22. You didn’t anticipate my second question because that wasn’t it.

My next question, if the minister would like, we’ll go estimate-to-estimate. When I look estimate-to-estimate, 2021-2022, 2022-2023, we see about an $8 million reduction from estimate-to-estimate. Given the fact that you’re willing to work with businesses, your organizations to help them in new funding, can you please explain the reduction in $8 million, estimate-to-estimate?

SUSAN CORKUM-GREEK: Through you, Mr. Chair, to the member, we can absolutely speak to that $8 million difference. There were a number of reductions which collectively add up to $15.5 million. This includes: Develop Nova Scotia’s completion of various capital projects, at $7.4 million; removal of an operating grant to provide Develop Nova Scotia with revenues lost due to the pandemic situation; Events East, there was a change in their operating losses of half a million; the Forestry Innovation Rebate Program, which has been completed; the Innovation Rebate Program for small, medium enterprises, which has been completed, each of those at $2 million; and the Export Development Program, $1 million; the Nova Scotia Jobs Fund, $1.3 million.

As I mentioned, that adds up collectively to reductions of $15.5 million. At the same time those are offset by some increases, collectively totalling $6.7 million. That includes $1 million for the Charlotte Street redesign project, a fantastic initiative back home in Cape Breton, I am sure the member will agree. As well, the NSBI payroll rebates, reflecting our agreements in that regard and $2 million for the Innovation Rebate Program.

FRED TILLEY: Lots of cuts to Develop Nova Scotia, operating grants, capital grants, interesting considering that we’re looking to them to do lots of work coming forward in this fiscal year.

In the interest of time, I am going to move on to another section, and that would be around economic recovery. It has been mentioned a number of times this evening, and a number of times in the Legislature. In September, this government fired the Economic Growth Council, which was tasked with growing the province’s economy and helping us recover stronger from the pandemic. Could you explain to me why you felt it was necessary not to get the results of the work of this Economic Growth Council?

SUSAN CORKUM-GREEK: Mr. Chair, to the honourable member, the Economic Growth Council - which was populated by a number of significant leaders of business and political and community life, hand-picked by the former Premier - had submitted an early report of their results. I would hesitate, absolutely, to say that they were fired. They were thanked for their efforts, because frankly, we came into government with a very strong vision of our own for the path forward.

I am most appreciative and personally reached out to all the members of that council, but I would say it was a group assembled of a time - as I say, very connected to the former Premier - and we thank them. That information was not shredded or disregarded, but the simple truth of the matter is that we have our own plan.

FRED TILLEY: Again, we haven’t seen the plan yet.

I just kind of want to go back on that question a little bit. A group, hand-picked by the Premier, of successful, well-intentioned, strong businesspeople - to use your words, hand-picked. I can’t say how they were chosen as a growth council, but this sounds like it was a partisan move on your government’s part to just disregard the work.

You say it hasn’t been disregarded, that it hasn’t been shelved, or it hasn’t been shredded. Is there a possibility that maybe we could see the results of that work?

SUSAN CORKUM-GREEK: In all honesty, I would have to look into the state of the work at the time when the council was disbanded. There may not be a ready-made document that could be handed over, but we do have the very public list of recommendations that were made.

I wish to speak carefully, because there absolutely were some very talented, significant people on that group. But the plan that was provided - and I can’t speculate as to the process in that room when they met and how things were assembled or assimilated - but our government has decided to embark on, frankly, a bolder path than a giant pair of scissors cutting red tape.

FRED TILLEY: Wow. Okay. So, it’s clear that you’re not interested in the work of the Economic Growth Council. That’s fair. That’s your prerogative.

I guess my next question would be, when can we see your bold path? It’s seven months. I would refer to your mandate letter with a quarterly update of March 17, 2022. We’re now on April 4, 2022. Has the timeline changed for your update from the mandate letter, to provide Nova Scotians with your plan to get us out of - to help us recover from the pandemic?

SUSAN CORKUM-GREEK: First, as regards the timeline, all timelines issued by the Premier have been met.

What is being suggested tonight in the current question, and certainly having witnessed my colleague, Minister Morrow, in this chair a short time ago there were questions around whether those quarterly reports would be public information. To be clear, we have absolutely committed to being a transparent government, but many of the initiatives that we have undertaken - those initiatives that are outlined in mandate letters and in our election platform before that - are still in the planning and finalization stages, so it would not be appropriate - I would suggest - to reveal all the details of a developing program.

Beyond that, in terms of the suggestion that we are not being the bold government that we presented ourselves to be, I will respectfully disagree. In our most recent budget - the more opportunities for skilled trades - so much of our economic development plan - which is fully revealed in the lines of not only my mandate letter, but those of my colleagues - so much ties to population growth though immigration, through retaining the many young people and people of various ages who come to Nova Scotia universities and NSCC campuses, to get them to stay.

With this particular new program, to be able to say not just to a Nova Scotian young person looking at their career, but equally to a skilled tradesperson 30 and under in another part of this country, that if you are able, if you are on the list of designated trades - and when that list comes out, it is quite broad - you will receive back provincial income tax on the first $50,000 of your income, an amount that will add up to over $4,000 for many of them. That is a significant incentive and a bold move.

FRED TILLEY: Minister, you talk about transparency and openness with regard to Nova Scotians and timelines, but when we FOIPOPed your timelines, the FOIPOP came back fully redacted, timelines missing, nothing to indicate to us or to Nova Scotians what the plan is. What are we hiding from Nova Scotians?

SUSAN CORKUM-GREEK: Mr. Chair, lest the member opposite think that because I took a moment to confer with my deputy minister I didn’t have an answer to that one, I will say that as a former journalist I filed a lot of Freedom of Information Act requests over the years and it is a very frustrating thing to receive a highly-redacted report. As minister, frankly, I don’t have much to do with the FOIPOP process, other than being made aware that one has arrived, so I had no first-hand knowledge of the amount that was blackened and redacted.

However, in cases where the information requested is advice to government that informs the decisions of Treasury and Cabinet, it is appropriate that those types of information are redacted. There is an appropriate time and place for information to be shared with the public. We are very happy to do that and, as I say, we remain very committed to open government and transparency.

[9:00 p.m.]

FRED TILLEY: Minister, I would think it would be foolhardy not to rely on the advice of your deputy minister, absolutely.

I guess my next question would be around your version of economic recovery. How will you measure economic recovery? How will you know that we have arrived, and we have recovered?

SUSAN CORKUM-GREEK: It is very important that there are measures and metrics of progress on such an important issue as economic recovery and future growth, and certainly, tied to any investments that the government makes in regard to these and other challenges.

In the budget document, there are references to measures such as GDP. We know that Nova Scotia’s real GDP contracted 2.5 per cent in 2020, which was the second-smallest decline among provinces, after Prince Edward Island, but that said, our largest decline in decades.

Real GDP is projected to increase 3 per cent in 2021 and 1.5 per cent in 2022, as the economy recovers. That will be one metric we will be looking at. We will also be looking at population growth. We already know we have very encouraging trends in that regard. We will look at unemployment levels, which are also giving us very favourable information at this time. At the same time, we take none of this for granted. COVID-19 is still in our province and in our communities, and because in many ways, we set an example for much of Canada through the early waves of the pandemic, in some ways, we are feeling COVID-19 in a way that we have not previously. I say that when I say feel as a people, I mean that.

We are not at the same place that we were a year ago or 18 months ago. We recently lifted most of the remaining restrictions, with some exceptions in and around schools and specific health care facilities. Businesses are reporting an increase in traffic and sales. We will continue to monitor all of this and, as well, to benchmark ourselves against other provinces and their progress.

FRED TILLEY: Minister, with all due respect, I didn’t hear a lot of metrics; I didn’t hear a lot of specific measurements. You talked a little bit about GDP. I didn’t hear anything about GDP to debt or where we’re going to be in years to come with GDP.

I’m sure you’ve heard of a report, written by a very prominent Nova Scotian, called the Ivany report. Within the Ivany report the coalition indicated a number of goals that would show a rising economy, such as doubling tourism - let’s see what else we have here - increasing our exports. When I hear from you what your vision or your measurement of economic growth is - I would love to hear look, we’re going to grow tourism, we’re going to double tourism, we’re going to grow exports.

We’ve had previous conversations about blueberries, and I’ve heard that blueberries are the largest export in Nova Scotia, which is wonderful. What are we going to do to work with some of our other industries to improve their exports for Nova Scotians?

SUSAN CORKUM-GREEK: With respect to my honourable colleague, it takes a heck of a lot of blueberries to outdo what we export in seafood, so I think you had better check your figures there.

In terms of the Ivany report, a very, very important report, a report that at the time it was issued, and I was working obviously in the private sector, the strongest thing I took away from the Ivany report was the call to action to stop studying it and do it, to have faith in ourselves and confidence in ourselves.

Frankly, I think our government’s approach is spot-on in terms of the spirit of the Ivany report. As far as doubling tourism, we know that the pandemic kicked the filling out of the tourism industry. Last year, after a slow start due to the Spring surge in COVID-19 cases and a bit of a late opening, nonetheless many of our operators managed to get in the latter part of the Summer and Fall with pretty impressive results. But by and large we were still relying on our fellow Nova Scotians, our fellow Atlantic Canadians, and on a few Central Canadians who were brave enough to make the journey here.

This Summer, God willing, we will see a return, a visitation, and we will get a check-in of the value of our tourism industry. In other words, there has been an interruption following 2019. We are going to have to reset the clock, but doubling the revenues for tourism was a very good goal because it speaks not only to more, it speaks to more dollars. It’s not sheer volume, it’s how you approach.

Implicit in that directive was looking at how you could get a higher dollar for the tourism products, how you could develop products that demanded a higher dollar without increasing the impact on public and community infrastructure. So while not explicitly in my mandate, because tourism of course has moved to the former Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage, doubling tourism, once we get our benchmark, is a very good goal.

In terms of increasing exports, during the pandemic Nova Scotia Business Inc., to their credit, hit the ground running and began offering a lot of their programs and various workshops in terms of how to better export products, particularly how to export products in a world where you couldn’t go on a plane and travel to the EU and meet with the folks in that future potential market.

We have continued to tick away on that and we do look forward now as the world opens up that, absolutely, exporting will be a major area of economic activity and will continue to be supported, as it is right now, primarily through our Crown corporation NSBI and its programming.

FRED TILLEY: Just want to refer back to the metrics that the minister talked about and GDP being one of the bigger metrics. Based on your own documents, in 2024 on page 57 of your budget it appears as though the GDP is going to go down by 0.2 per cent. I’m sure that concerns you, but I’m going to move on in my line of questioning now to another section, in the interest of time.

I want to talk a little bit about small business support. Minister, the latest data from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business shows that 81 per cent of the province’s businesses are concerned about rising costs. We’ve all seen those costs rise. Is there anything in this budget that will help businesses alleviate those concerns?

SUSAN CORKUM-GREEK: To the question, absolutely. Costs are rising, and that is a concern for businesses. It is a concern for virtually every Nova Scotian. What the Department of Economic Development can best offer is to continue to work with businesses to identify better processes, efficiencies and innovations. That was a very big part of the rationale for making the Innovation Rebate Program permanent, taking the previous pilot programs, putting them into one, because frankly, I think sometimes, particularly because you mentioned small businesses, we make these distinctions.

First there was the Innovation Rebate Program, and then we had the Small Medium Enterprise Innovation Rebate Program. We’ve had other programs that have started out in that way. No insult meant, but frankly, in terms of Nova Scotia’s economic growth, incremental increases in employment, in sales, in productivity by small and medium enterprises add up very quickly to significant gains. They don’t tend to get the same headlines as landing a new company that brings 500 or 1,000 jobs into town, but in most of the rural constituencies, and certainly the constituencies represented by my colleagues in government caucus, a couple of jobs, new jobs added, or a part-time job that becomes a full-time job is a big win.

[9:15 p.m.]

Being able to invest in new equipment or new product lines that enable a company to become more profitable - those are the ways that we can truly help businesses with rising costs. We can’t subsidize their fuel. We can all hope that certain factors stabilize over time. In some cases, businesses will struggle with having to pass rising costs on to their customers, and those will be decisions that those businesses will have to make using their own knowledge of their markets.

Those are the ways. That and, once again, those export programs. If there is a good product, too often - and I’ll point to my own neck of the woods - a company or business may have found a certain level of success and there is a hesitation to go to the next level, which may be the pursuit of an export market. A lot of times, and this is where that Innovation Rebate Program comes to bear, it’s: Well, it might be a good thing, but that’s an awful lot of money for me, for our company, to invest. The Innovation Rebate Program, in offering a rebate of 25 per cent of eligible costs, has been shown to make that difference.

The other thing that I will quickly mention, of course, is there has been much investment and continues to be much investment in digital adoption. We need to adopt more instances of using technology, whether that is in how we interface with clients, customers, and suppliers, or in automation of certain tasks.

FRED TILLEY: The innovation fund is a great fund put in place by a previous government. It does good work.

Efficiencies and innovations are great things, but they’re for later. They will help a business later. Businesses need help right now.

The minister just said, “We can’t subsidize their fuel.” Is it that we can’t or won’t? Other jurisdictions are helping people with fuel. They’re lowering their fuel tax. They’re giving a break at the pumps. It’s we can’t or won’t. Right now, minister, inflation is currently at 5.7 per cent. It’s hurting all of our businesses.

The Canadian Federation of Independent Business in Nova Scotia shows that 66 per cent of businesses are still below normal revenues. Now, numerous times I’ve heard us say this evening that we are emerging from the pandemic. Clearly, we’re not emerging yet, because businesses are not getting to the levels pre-pandemic.

My question to the minister is: Given the fact that we’re heading into a very significant wave, are you worried about the latest variants and how they’re going to impact businesses? Will there be supports there for them if they’re impacted by this most significant wave?

SUSAN CORKUM-GREEK: Well, I would be a pretty cold and callous person if I was not at all worried about the potential impacts of what is now being described in media as a sixth wave. I’ve worked in media, so I allow myself to be critical, sometimes, of - in the quest of a story - and what does it mean for there to be a wave?

Nova Scotia’s second wave locked down HRM. That was very significant. For many of us in other parts of the province, it was less impactful. But to be clear, absolutely, we worry about this. The decision, effective March 21^st, to lift so many of the mandates was heavily weighed - with, I would add, the Department of Health and Wellness always being the lead agent, in terms of the information used to make those decisions.

What I absolutely will commit to, what we have consistently committed to throughout the roughly seven months of our government is to continue open, honest, and frank conversations with business so that if there is an identification of the need for supports to address a situation, we will work with business to shape and create what is needed. But, once again, it is not the same situation that we have seen in previous waves. We certainly hope it will not escalate in such a way, so we have not had lockdowns, for instance, since the Spring of 2021 and that’s why the supports we brought to bear, for instance in regard to the measures that were brought in in December, were oriented to supporting those businesses that were directly impacted.

An article the other day indicated that there have been significantly fewer businesses failures through the pandemic. On the surface of things we say, well that doesn’t make sense. We know businesses are going through hardships, they’ve taken on increased debt. Yes, we know that the hardware stores and the home renos - there have been a few winners, but there have been a lot of businesses across many sectors put through the wringer.

How can it be that we have this significant reduction in the number of business failures compared to just a regular year? Whatever will pass for regular or normal, I don’t know what that will ever be again. Part of this has been influenced by the funds that have been brought to bear by various governments and I am not critical of those funds, but I do anticipate that as those various funds are ended, we will see some businesses not make it through. I will personally be sad every time I hear that because businesses, after all, are run and staffed by people and people are impacted in those situations.

We’ll do our utmost best to support businesses where appropriate, and that is my ongoing commitment.

FRED TILLEY: If the minister would like, I have an idea for her that might help businesses. A significant - I think it’s 67 per cent of businesses in Nova Scotia had to take on debt to survive the pandemic. One of those pieces of debt that was available to businesses was a $40,000 government loan. I think it would go a long way to helping businesses come out of this pandemic and start to build forward if this government were willing to forgive that loan to those businesses.

Would the minister commit to forgiving that loan to business?

SUSAN CORKUM-GREEK: I do thank the member for any suggestions because, in spite of the atmosphere of our House of Assembly on certain days, I think that when we leave the floor of the House most of us actually can step forward in the name of supporting the communities that we represent and the province that we love, so I am very open to consideration. I have learned - I’ve taught a very different younger self, who might have dismissed things out of hand, that things are worth some consideration.

As regards the Canada Emergency Business Account, which was the $40,000 loans, lines of credit that were made available. Those are federally held loans. There have already been changes made on at least one occasion that changed the repayment date, and it was a repayment date relative to if you pay back by that date, you will be forgiven $10,000 of the initial $40,000.

I don’t see the Province of Nova Scotia stepping in to pay off debts that were secured by the federal government. At the same time what I will offer is that we will be very mindful of the ability of businesses to service their debt and - I will be very open, as will all the people whom I work with in the department - to looking at ways that we may be able to support businesses in dealing with the debt that they have taken on. One of the ways is to see their businesses resume and to have income to service those debts.

I do recognize people have taken on extraordinary levels of debt, levels of debt that in a pre-pandemic world they just would not have gone to that level.

FRED TILLEY: I have another idea that will help businesses as well, and that would be the implementation of the better paycheque guarantee. We’ve heard a lot about it. I know your government likes to talk about working together, overcoming obstacles and working with businesses, but most of the organizations that I’ve spoken with haven’t heard about how the better paycheque guarantee will be implemented.

Nova Scotians really - we’ve talked about inflation, we’ve talked about rising fuel costs, the member for Halifax Chebucto took us on a grocery store tour, so we know how much things are going up - Nova Scotians are not seeing it in their pocketbook.

Can we get an update as to when - I didn’t see it in the budget, I didn’t see Nova Scotia Loyal either, but we’ll talk about that in a second - the better paycheque guarantee, when can we see an implementation of better paycheque?

SUSAN CORKUM-GREEK: I am delighted that it will be on the record that the Opposition critic for Economic Development supports the better paycheque guarantee, describing it as a good idea, great idea, I think you said. I agree. The reality is that we came into this budget after mere months in government. We made some very clear commitments and very immediate commitments on the health care file.

As a sitting member of Treasury Board, I had a very privileged and up-close view of the choices that had to be made because you just can’t do everything all at once. The better paycheque guarantee is an initiative that has been assigned to the Finance Minister but with an involvement and a great personal willingness on my part as Minister of Economic Development to be involved. We do look forward to bringing that program to bear as soon as possible.

You are correct. It is not in this budget. Regrettably, we have - not regrettably that we took on debt, we told the public, we told the electors we would take on debt to deal with health care. There is a level that we accepted in the debt we’re taking on. When we talked about metrics before, and GDP, and GDP to debt, Progressive Conservative, progressive though we may be, nobody really likes to see, over the years that are laid out in this budget, how high that debt to GDP is. The decisions were made, and they were made more or less unanimously, that we had to make the spending in regard to health care. So choices were made and the More Opportunities for Skilled Trades program was able to go ahead and the better paycheque guarantee will wait and we will use that time to figure out the finer details.

[9:30 p.m.]

We have had questions, companies that are not incorporated, for instance, and were wondering how it would apply to them. We know that far too many Nova Scotians are on the lower end of the wage scale. We’re not even talking issues in and around minimum wage.

We have managed to grow an economy over successive governments. If we look back 20 years, we have too many people on that lower scale. That’s why we have to choose very carefully where the investments are made, in arenas like manufacturing and IT, areas that involve higher salaries. And for those industries that are tied to a business operation model that relies on a lesser wage, a lower living for workers, that’s where we need to encourage them to look at things like automation, so that we need fewer people in those roles and we can gain efficiencies where maybe their wages are increased. I very much look forward, but it is something that will have to come, hopefully, in that next budget. Yes, you are correct, it is not in this budget.

FRED TILLEY: Those Nova Scotians you talk about, minister, who are in those lower income brackets sure could use - so when I referred to a better paycheque being a good thing, I wasn’t referring to your program, I was referring to a person’s actual paycheque. When their paycheque goes up, that’s a good thing for all Nova Scotians, especially our middle- to low-income Nova Scotians.

I’m going to start quickly on the Nova Scotia Loyal program and maybe have to continue this conversation tomorrow. Nothing in the budget for Nova Scotia Loyal, but I hear there is work going on and I hear there is progress. Can you tell me if there’s money in this budget for Nova Scotia Loyal and how much?

SUSAN CORKUM-GREEK: There is ample capacity in this budget to deliver on Nova Scotia Loyal.

FRED TILLEY: I’ll take that as a no, there’s not anything specific to Nova Scotia Loyal in the budget.

Can you give me a specific number of what will be spent on Nova Scotia Loyal in this fiscal year?

SUSAN CORKUM-GREEK: Until the program is finalized and goes through the Finance and Treasury Board process it would be inappropriate to share that amount. It is pretty much known at this point.

I know it must seem terribly frustrating that I am not spilling the beans - and there’s a big part of me that would be very happy to share. It’s coming and it’s coming soon and it’s going to be very effective and it’s going to make a significant and positive change in this province.

FRED TILLEY: Will this be a program that low-income Nova Scotians can participate in?

SUSAN CORKUM-GREEK: Mr. Chair, to the member opposite, yes, it will. These are the types of details when there has been the questioning in Question Period, which is absolutely the prerogative of the Opposition to ask: when, where is it, how is it going to look? We know consumers in our province are as different as the people in our province. They shop at different places, and they seek different products. What we want to accomplish through this strategy is to give the opportunity for shifts - I’ll say small and large - but shifts at the places where those folks do their shopping.

In their questions to the honourable Minister of Agriculture earlier this evening, there were questions about farmers’ markets. Farmers’ markets are a natural venue. They kind of speak to local products. But many Nova Scotians don’t do their shopping at farmers’ markets. They may do their shopping at the Atlantic Superstore or in Walmart.

We have to shape this program so that people can buy local where they shop. That means different point-of-sale systems. It is challenging. This is not like President’s Choice PC Optimum points, although we have certainly used the best practices of some of the large loyalty programs to inform our creation and decision making around this program.

We know at the farmers’ market, many vendors, some of them, have Square - they can take a credit card payment on their telephone, and others are cash only. Then you go to the larger chain stores, where an apple, in their system, is an apple. So how do we develop this program so that it can count a Nova Scotia apple?

There have been challenges, but those challenges have not been barriers. It’s just been working those things out so that at the end of the day this program is as relevant to a Nova Scotian on the lower end of the income stream as to those for whom purchasing may come with a little less consideration.

THE CHAIR: Order. It is now 9:37 p.m. and the House is set to adjourn at 10:00 p.m.

That concludes the subcommittee’s consideration of Estimates for today. The subcommittee will resume consideration when the House again resolves into a Committee of the Whole on Supply.

Please return to your seats in the Legislative Chamber. The Committee of the Whole House must rise and report before the House concludes its business for the day.

I adjourn this meeting.

[The committee adjourned at 9:37 p.m.]