HALIFAX, THURSDAY, MARCH 5, 2020

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY

6:00 P.M.

CHAIR

Rafah DiCostanzo

THE CHAIR: Order. We’re meeting tonight to consider the estimates for the Department of Energy and Mines, as outlined in Resolution E6.

Resolution E6 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $63,509,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Energy and Mines, pursuant to the Estimate.

THE CHAIR: The honourable Minister of Energy and Mines.

HON. DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Thank you, Madam Chair. I’m really honoured to have the opportunity to be here tonight to talk about the amazing work that’s happening in the Department of Energy and Mines and to take questions from my colleagues, who I’ve had multiple conversations with in the past about some of the initiatives that we’re involved with as a department.

I’m joined tonight by Deputy Minister Simon d’Entremont and the Director of Financial Advisory Services, Remi MacDonell. There will also be several members from the Department of Energy and Mines that are in the audience. I want to take a moment to thank these individuals, as well as the dedicated and professional staff supporting us at the Department of Energy and Mines. The work they are responsible for represents a significant contribution to both our province’s finances and creating more opportunities for all Nova Scotians.

I’ll begin today by focusing first on the details of my department’s budget. Our estimated budget for 2020-21 is $63.5 million, with the following expenses for the department: administration of $1.5 million; sustainable and renewable energy of $1.8 million; business development and corporate services, $3.8 million; petroleum resources, $2.1 million; geosciences and mines, $5.5 million; Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board, $3.9 million; clean growth and climate change, $44.5 million.

The Department of Energy and Mines is focused on strategically and responsibly managing and promoting our province’s resources on behalf of Nova Scotians. We’re delivering on that commitment because a strong and growing economy is the foundation of a more vibrant and prosperous province. When we set the right conditions for the private sector to be successful, government revenues increase, and that allows us to invest in programs and services for Nova Scotians. It allows us to support our young people so they can start their careers here.

It also gives us the ability to invest in programs that reduce emissions and move us towards Nova Scotia’s cleaner energy future. On that point, I think it is very important to note that more than 70 per cent of this department’s budget is allocated to clean energy, emissions reductions and green infrastructure.

I think we all understand that the world is in a period of transition. Fighting climate change has become perhaps the most pressing social issue of our time. We know that we need to find a way to supply the energy the world needs in a cleaner way. We need to find cleaner ways to mine for the copper that goes into wind turbines, the silver for solar panels, the lithium needed for batteries, and the rare earth metals that are part of cell phones, computers and other electronic devices. Doing so will open the door to many more jobs and help us capitalize on a growing, green economy.

Madam Chair, Nova Scotia is a national leader in fighting climate change. We met the federal 2030 target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions 13 years early and we’re not stopping there. We have set the most ambitions emissions reduction goals in Canada. By 2030, our emissions will be 53 per cent below 2005 levels. By 2050, our emissions will be net zero.

Over the next three years, we are investing about $120 million in programs that reduce emissions and fight climate change. All of this is essential to remain competitive in a global marketplace. To reach our goals, we need to work together with the private sector, Mi’kmaw leaders, academia and not-for-profits. If we face this challenge together, I believe we will meet and exceed our goals.

Madam Chair, one of the biggest successes in continuing opportunities for growth is energy efficiency. In 2019, Nova Scotia was recognized by Efficiency Canada as being number one in the country for energy efficiency programs and for having the most highly trained energy-efficiency workforce. This is an achievement we can all be proud of. Nova Scotians have achieved this success by being the best in Canada and using less energy.

We have reduced our electricity use faster than any other Canadian province, a full 11 per cent since 2008. That means families in all parts of the province are saving money on their energy bills. We continue to expand our energy efficiency programs, and Nova Scotians are using them enthusiastically.

Our HomeWarming program is helping low-income Nova Scotia homeowners receive free energy-efficiency upgrades. As a result, they’re saving an average of $900 on their energy bills every single year. That’s money that’s going back into the pockets of some of the people who need it the most. Since 2007, 16,000 low-income Nova Scotians have had free energy-efficiency upgrades. Thousands of Nova Scotians have received discounts on their energy-efficiency upgrades. There are now roughly 1.2 million energy-efficiency products in Nova Scotia homes. More than 120,000 heat pumps have been installed in communities from Yarmouth to Meat Cove.

Nova Scotians are now saving more than $180 million each year on their electricity bills through energy efficiency. As a result, more than 300 businesses and 1,400 people now work in our energy-efficiency industry. In total, our energy-efficiency efforts avoid more than 1 million tonnes of carbon emissions each year. This only enhances our position as a national leader in the fight against climate change and we are building on these successes.

Over the next few years, we are investing $25 million to improve 2,400 Mi’kmaw homes and 11,500 public housing units in communities across Nova Scotia. This will create work in every corner of our province and drive our greenhouse gas emissions even lower. We have also announced in the budget that we plan to invest another $2 million in the affordable rental program. This will lower energy bills for some low-income renters and make affordable housing more secure for others.

Organizations like Efficiency Nova Scotia and Clean Foundation are doing a remarkable job of delivering these programs, and I want to thank them and congratulate them on their results. The work that went into developing this industry has positioned Nova Scotia’s success and now other provinces and countries look to us to set up similar programs.

Madam Chair, solar energy is another area of success for my department. According to energyhub.org, Nova Scotia is number one in Canada for installing a solar power system. That’s because of our province’s rebates, financing option, and lower installation costs. It is another achievement we can all be proud of. We will continue to offer a rebate of up to $6,000 to homeowners, and our significant investments in solar are paying off. Just 18 months ago, there were only 13 companies approved in Nova Scotia to install these systems. Today, there are more than 60. That’s hundreds of new jobs.

More than 500 families have added solar electricity to their homes under our SolarHomes rebate program, plus we have seen dozens of community organizations approved to add solar panels to their buildings. Several communities have expressed interest in developing solar gardens, and we will look at ways to make those plans happen. It is an exciting time for the solar industry, and we want to make sure that growth is sustainable for the future.

Madam Chair, renewable energy use in Nova Scotia is increasing at a tremendous pace. Since 2007, renewable energy use has more than tripled. Next year it will double again, and by 2021, more than 60 per cent of our electricity will come from renewable sources. Increasingly, more and more people and organizations want to be part of our cleaner energy future. That’s why I introduced these changes that will create the Green Choice Program. This program will give large electricity customers the ability to purchase clean electricity through an independent and competitive process. This will make our electricity system more flexible by creating green economic growth and new jobs in communities across Nova Scotia.

[6:15 p.m.]

In August, the federal government approached us to help to get 100 per cent renewable electricity for all federally-owned facilities in the province by 2022. Our amendments are necessary to achieve that goal. This project will invest tens of millions of dollars into our green economy, creating jobs and prosperity. It will create an estimated 100,000 megawatt-hours of new, renewable electricity. That is enough energy to power about 10,000 homes per year, and this is likely just the beginning. We’ve heard from large companies, academia, non-profits and municipal organizations. They are all interested in pursuing similar projects and we want to help them get there.

Madam Chair, our work with the federal government continues with the Low Carbon Economy Fund and the Investing in Canada infrastructure plan. This year, my department is investing $9.5 million in these two programs. Our investment is leveraging an additional $24.1 million from the Government of Canada. These investments support our transition to a clean growth economy. Some of the projects supported through these investments include a new bikeway project for Halifax and Dartmouth, the SolarHomes program, expanded energy-efficiency programs, and the expanded smart products program. Working with our federal partners will only build on our climate change successes.

Madam Chair, much of this comes from our electricity plan, which was introduced in 2015. My department is following through on that plan, and the plan is paying off. Nova Scotians said they wanted predictable power rates and greater accountability. The electricity plan is delivering. We are in a stretch of unprecedented electricity rate stability that will continue until 2022 and possibly beyond.

This period of time has given us the opportunity to take a long-term view of Nova Scotia’s energy future. Power rates are important, but they are not the only part of a much bigger puzzle that includes electricity, transportation, home heating, international commodity prices, incorporating more renewables into our system, and keeping it affordable. Our goal is to achieve overall energy stability and our plan is providing that and more.

Today, Nova Scotia Power is more accountable than ever before. Performance standards are in place for customer service, reliability and storm response, plus the Utility and Review Board has the tools to ensure Nova Scotians pay only the lowest and actual costs of fuel for electricity. Through our electricity plan, government is opening the door to innovation and development. Our work to implement the electricity plan continues with other innovative projects.

We’ve invested in electric vehicle charging stations to lower emissions and make Nova Scotia more accessible to electric vehicles. These are innovative products that will lead to better overall energy stability. Innovation is what leads to the ideas that make our businesses successful and creates jobs for Nova Scotians. It also drives the price of renewable energy down. The result is cleaner, affordable electricity for Nova Scotia families and Nova Scotia businesses.

Madam Chair, our greatest opportunity for clean, renewable energy is likely still ahead of us. The potential for tidal energy remains strong and our commitment to developing this industry is even stronger. The future of tidal energy is now. Over the past 12 months, we’ve welcomed three new developers into the Bay of Fundy. We’ve seen mergers and partnerships. We’ve seen new technologies and designs. We’ve seen tens of millions of dollars invested by companies and the federal government. Many Nova Scotia companies are becoming involved in a supply chain that could see Nova Scotia expertise exported around the globe.

The Fundy Ocean Research Centre for Energy (FORCE) and the Offshore Energy Research Association (OERA) will continue working to keep Nova Scotia at the leading edge of this developing industry. My department will continue to set the framework to help this industry grow and thrive. We know that this is a long race, but we need to move towards the finish line with the appropriate level of urgency. Our commitment to this industry is unwavering and the reasons are clear. Tidal is clean energy for us, Canada and the rest of the world. It’s lower emissions that help us reach our climate change goals. It’s jobs in rural communities, and it’s growing a green economy.

Commercial success can take decades, but we also know the value of being the leader. Technologies developed in the tidal industry have applications in marine sciences, defence, the fishery, and many other sectors. It’s this kind of crossover that leads to commercial success, export development and economic growth. Nova Scotia is the testing ground for the world’s leading tidal technologies and home to some of the best marine researchers in the world. We will continue to build on these advantages.

Madam Chair, as part of this budget, the government continues to invest in sustainable transportation. Sustainable transportation is about creating options to get from place to place with the lowest possible emissions. Encouraging active living is important for so many reasons, but in many communities, encouragement is only half the battle. The reality is people are more likely to tie up their sneakers and get on the move when there are easily accessible and safe walking and bicycle-friendly options available to them. We want to make sure it’s just as easy to walk, run or cycle from place to place as it is to drive.

We’re proud to be working with HRM and the federal government on a 30-kilometre bike lane network in Halifax and Dartmouth. This project will create a comprehensive system linking all corners of the city for people of all ages and abilities. Our sustainable transportation program, Connect2, aims to create and promote active transportation options for trips of two kilometres or less between community hubs, and rural and urban parts of Nova Scotia. These kinds of projects improve our neighbourhoods and help us build on our achievement as climate change leaders by continuing to reduce emissions.

This year, the government is investing more than $1.3 million in 33 local projects to fight climate change through clean energy and sustainable transportation projects. Over the past eight years, more than $7.7 million has been invested in 222 projects through the Low Carbon Communities and Connect2 programs. These programs are available to Mi’kmaw communities, not-for-profit organizations, academic institutions, and municipalities. We also continue our work supporting the infrastructure needed for electric vehicles, while helping Nova Scotia understand the benefits of this cleaner transportation option.

Madam Chair, 2019 was also an exciting year for mining in Nova Scotia. The market value of mineral production reached an all-time high in the province. The value of this industry more than doubled to $325 million in 2018, up from $125 million in 2017. The growth has been driven largely by increases in production from Atlantic Gold and the Donkin Mine. Thanks to the dedicated prospectors in the province, we have a vibrant exploration industry. Activity was up 7 per cent and exploration spending topped $15 million.

This year, we are again investing $1.5 million in the Mineral Resources Development Fund. This fund supports mineral exploration programs, professional development, innovation, university research, and training opportunities for young people.

Looking ahead, we are drafting a five-year geoscience plan. The plan’s goal is to provide new and innovative public geoscience information which will help industry make more effective exploration decisions. As always, the geologists in my department continue to study and report on the geology and mineral occurrences in Nova Scotia.

Madam Chair, on the subject of geology, the Department of Energy and Mines continues to invest in leading-edge geoscience and development of our offshore. The oil and gas resources off our coast continue to represent significant opportunity for economic development in Nova Scotia. Looking back, more than a generation of exploration production in our offshore has delivered for Nova Scotians.

Over the past 20 years, our province has received about $4 billion in revenue. That’s money that goes directly towards paying for hospitals, schools, roads, internet access, law enforcement and services that Nova Scotians use every day. On top of that, oil and gas companies have spent more than $3 billion on goods and services in our province. We have accomplished this with a workplace safety and environmental record that is second to none.

Oil and gas developments have safely co-existed with the fishing industry and other sectors for over 30 years. We have one of the strongest offshore safety and environmental protection regimes in the world, and we are the model for other jurisdictions. When companies come here, they do so under stringent rules that are strictly enforced by an independent regulator. We have confidence in the abilities of our offshore board. Staff there have almost 300 years of combined experience in health and safety, environmental protection, engineering, and many other fields. When it comes to the environment and worker safety, we don’t cut any corners. We are tough and successful, and our future is bright. Our investments in geoscience have resulted in work commitments for major international firms totalling more than $2.1 billion. The results of our offshore research are clear: we know there’s more gas out there. The Play Fairway Analysis told us that more than 120 trillion cubic feet of gas and 8 billion barrels of oil potentially lie off our coast. We remain committed to working with industry to help find it.

My department is in year three of a four-year, $14 million commitment to support phase two of the Offshore Growth Strategy. We’re investing in leading edge GeoSigns to de-risk oil and gas exploration. In fact, this Summer we’re working with the Offshore Energy Research Association and Genome Atlantic. We will be revisiting areas of the Nova Scotia slope that appear to have the best hydrocarbon potential. We’ll continue to share the results of this work openly with industry.

Madam Chair, we’re also encouraged by the progress we’re seeing with potential LNG and natural gas projects in Nova Scotia. East Coast Energy, Goldboro, Bear Head, and Alton all have projects under way. These projects will help create jobs in rural areas. Having the capacity to store more natural gas at Alton’s facility could save customers $1 million every year by smoothing out price spikes, especially in Winter months when demand is highest. These caverns will be more than 800 meters below the surface, which is almost the same height as two CN Towers. Already more than 70 Nova Scotia companies have provided goods, services and labour to the project.

The Goldboro and Bear Head LNG projects would mean billions of dollars in private sector investment for Nova Scotia in lowering emissions globally. Both projects have reached milestones in their approval processes, and we look forward to positive final investment decisions in the future.

North America has an abundance of natural gas and the potential to help meet global demand. Our opportunity lies in finding a way to transfer gas to the supply bases in North America and markets around the world. We recognize the value of natural gas. Nova Scotians have benefited greatly from this important resource. Our offshore created the opportunity for our workers and businesses to develop new skill sets and those capabilities are now being exported all over the world. Companies like Atlantic Towing, LearnCorp, EastPoint Engineering, and many others are competing globally and winning. Natural gas is a fuel that heats many of our homes, schools and hospitals. It also powers several key industries and will continue to be an overall important part of our energy strategy.

Madam Chair, there is plenty of good news in Nova Scotia’s energy and mining sectors, and plenty of reason to be optimistic about the future. Perhaps the best part of this is the opportunity it presents for our young people. Our oil and gas industry has created more than 1,100 co-op work terms for students and invested more than $50 million in training and education. In 2019, 20 students earned the Pengrowth-Nova Scotia Energy Scholarship or Energy Innovation Grant for energy related studies at post-secondary institutions. Nearly 300 scholarships have been awarded since 2005. Since 2002, the Energy Training Program has funded about 450 placements at more than 100 companies. In 2019, more than 60 per cent of employees retained their employee after their work term ended. All of this helps more graduates start and grow their careers here. There are jobs in manufacturing, research and development, engineering, project management and tech start-ups.

These are just a few examples, but the point is that the opportunity is all around us. Our young people and our resource sector share one very big fact in common: they are both filled with potential. If government and industry continue to work together, I know we can and will create a better future for our young people and all Nova Scotians.

Madam Chair, I would like to thank you for this opportunity to outline the important work of the Department of Energy and Mines. Again, I want to recognize the staff of the Department of Energy and Mines who every day do important work on behalf of all of us, and I look forward to the questions from my colleagues.

[6:30 p.m.]

THE CHAIR: Thank you, Minister Mombourquette. It’s a lot of information here, so I’m sure we’ll have a lot of questions. We’ll be starting with the PC Party for one hour.

The honourable member for Inverness.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, minister, for your opening remarks. I would also like to acknowledge your staff and the work they do to support the energy and mining industry and all the projects that you’re working on.

I’ll just start out by asking about energy consumption in the province. It can be measured, I suppose, in two ways - the units used and also the GHGs. I respect there are other sources where those answers can be obtained, but just based on your own department and the expertise you have there, what is the province’s energy consumption looking like? I would expect a large amount of it would be Nova Scotia Power, a large amount would probably be automobiles, and so on.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: This is kind of a GHG breakdown for you: 40 per cent would come from coal, 40 per cent would come from our transportation sector, and then the other 10 per cent to 20 per cent would come from everything else. That would be day to day consumption, what your businesses would consume, et cetera. That’s the breakdown of GHG use across the province.

ALLAN MACMASTER: The 20 per cent other, could you break that down a little bit more?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: That would include both large and small businesses. There are lots of definitions for small business, but that would also include your manufacturing, some of your larger industries across the province. That would be classified in that percentage.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you, minister. I’m sure that Port Hawkesbury Paper is probably one of those larger users of energy.

I recognize that if you’re dealing with Nova Scotia Power in megawatts, if you’re dealing with automobiles and truck traffic, you’re probably dealing with litres of fuel. It’s kind of hard to break it out, the total amount of energy that’s being consumed. Is there a way, though, that you could provide some indication of what per cent of energy we’re generating domestically as a percentage of the energy that’s being used? I think about renewable energy as one way to do that. I think that we’re still producing coal in the province for the coal plants that are burning it. I’ll let the minister respond.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: What I provided you was probably one of the easiest ways to do it, if you look at the GHG breakdown. I can try to break that information down and get back to you on the residential side of it because there are a number of components. It’s not just as easy as saying this is the overall number, just based on the different energy mix, but what I’ll do is I’ll get back to you with some of the information on the domestic side of things.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you, minister. I certainly would entertain that information and would be pleased to see it, but is there a rough idea though? If, for instance, Nova Scotia Power is about half the energy being used in the province and 20 per cent is renewable energy - it’s probably higher than that right now - then I guess you could say 20 per cent of the 40 per cent would be generated domestically.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We can provide that. We don’t have that in front of us because you’re looking at a couple of different facets. Some of it is broken down into electricity, how homes are heated, with gas, et cetera. We’re going to do our best to get that one number that we can get to you so you can see from a domestic side what we’re doing.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you, minister, I would appreciate that. Maybe just for the benefit of your staff and when you’re putting something together - I think about coal being a certain percentage of Nova Scotia Power’s generation. I’m sure there’s some idea of the percentage of Nova Scotia coal that’s being used as a part of the entire amount of coal that’s being used in the province. I guess there’d be really no energy from the province being produced here that would be contributing to the energy used by the transportation sector. I can’t think of any.

If we’re referencing Port Hawkesbury Paper, I know they’re talking about starting a wind farm. If they were to do that, if they’re using 10 per cent of the power in the province, maybe 10 per cent of the Nova Scotia Power output is then generated domestically.

The reason I’m asking is, I’m trying to get an idea of how much energy we’re consuming and how much we’re generating ourselves because every dollar that we’re spending in our economy to purchase energy from elsewhere is money that’s leaving our economy that could be staying here. That’s my line of thinking.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: There are some statistics around the consumption levels and how they’ve decreased. I’ve kind of talked about them in my speech, about how we’ve decreased our energy consumption. I’m trying to think of the number off the top of head right now.

Since 2008, we’ve reduced our consumption significantly. This is a bit of a moving target because we really are into a number of new initiatives within communities. You mentioned Port Hawkesbury Paper - they’re looking at a wind project, which is quite significant. That would support their energy consumption and actually help them support even more stability within the region for a period of time. Some of the larger industries are looking at that.

When you look at transportation, we’re in conversations now with both HRM and CBRM, and looking at what the electrification of their fleets is going to look like. We’re looking at some of the federal programs to determine what may qualify under that. They’re both very interested in doing that, and I’m hoping to get that over the finish line sooner than later. That will actually build on the energy consumption from the electrification piece.

We’re also looking at that, too, from a residential perspective. I’ve taken the opportunity myself to engage in the electric vehicle discussion. We have a charging network across the province; we’re going to look at capitalizing on that. That will change those numbers again. We know that Nova Scotians are utilizing that now, so these are all going to change the numbers around energy consumption. We’re looking at our own fleets within the province to determine what we can do to support electrification, so stay tuned.

A lot of these numbers are going to change drastically as we continue to add programs on. We know that, just on the domestic side alone, with the efficiency programs that we’ve put in - and I did this presentation at home. I actually have Cape Breton numbers if you want to see them, too, because it gives you an idea of what we’re using on the Island and in other regions of the province that are actually utilizing these programs.

Hundreds of people are accessing the solar program, which is drastically reducing their energy consumption. The expansion of our programs away from just electrically-heated homes to homes with other heating sources has seen a big spike in the ability for Nova Scotians to access the program. It’s all in the last two years that we’ve expanded these things. It’s really going to drive down energy consumption. We’ll do our best to get you some more numbers, but it’s kind of a moving target.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you, minister, I appreciate that. Just again for benefit of the staff who are putting it together, some of the things you mentioned are jogging my own mind. I’m thinking there’s a bit of hydro produced in the province - I can’t remember the number off the top of my head. It’s not a significant amount but they’re significant enough.

You’ve mentioned residential, solar and wind, and I know there’s some run of river. There’s not a lot. All those are domestic energy sources. I know you mentioned electric cars, and I noticed Tesla stock has recently doubled. It doubled in one day and it’s been up and down since in the last week, as everything else has been. I think that’s a sign that there is recognition that electric cars are going to become more common. Of course, if somebody has solar power in their home, maybe they can power their car with that.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: This goes back to the conversation we started having during second reading. Some of the things you brought up - it’s not just Nova Scotia, but it’s really around the world that we’re seeing the price points of these new technologies really starting to take a dive.

Solar and wind in the past were more expensive. Quite frankly, when we talk about the balance between the renewables and making sure that rates are stable and affordable, we’re getting to that point where these products are starting to really drop. You’re seeing the technology and battery storage, which could also play a big part in the future when utilities around the world are looking at ways that they can better consume power between houses, and control flow and make sure that at peak points, these new technologies will allow for better power consumption between homes and businesses, but also drive down our GHGs. This is all becoming more affordable.

We hit that milestone this past Summer for solar. People are starting to make these investments because, outside of the incentives that we offer, the prices of these products are actually starting to come down. It’s an exciting time to be part of it and we’re having these conversations because it’s moving quickly, but I think successive governments have done their best to strengthen their programs. That’s essentially what we’re doing now. We’re reacting to the demands of Nova Scotians who want to reduce their carbon footprint. We’re expanding our programs to allow them to do it, but they’re also making those investments in electric vehicles, in solar panels. Larger companies are saying, you know what? Wind is now an option for us. So, interesting times.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Minister, you touched on it there - how much energy consumption did we reduce last year? To focus on that, I guess we probably would have to look at Nova Scotia Power. It’s probably one of the only ways you could measure what they’ve reduced, but I’ll let you comment. Maybe there are other sectors. Transportation - maybe you have some way of measuring reduction there? Or possible increase, I guess.

[6:45 p.m.]

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: What I can say is that from a residential point, power consumption is pretty stable and with the efficiency programs that we’re putting in, it’s kind of keeping it that way. Even with the growth in demand that Nova Scotians have with energy consumption, it’s pretty stable.

When you look at the commercial side of things, it really varies depending on what Port Hawkesbury Paper’s performance would be from year to year- I used to put them as an example. It’s a little more difficult to gauge that consumption, but overall, maybe a few points in growth, maybe in the last year, when it comes to energy consumption on the domestic side. Again, I think we’ll have a better idea in the next couple of years because we’ve expanded efficiency programs so much that that consumption is going to negatively impact that growth just based on Nova Scotians utilizing the programs.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Would I be correct in saying that although perhaps residential consumption is going down because people have more energy-efficient homes, maybe they’re using solar power, our population may be increasing which may be offsetting what we might be seeing as a reduction. That may be causing it to maybe flatline, so it’s not really going up or down. Would that be safe to say?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Our population is going up so, of course, demand is going to go up. We will see more demand on the system. I think just by electrification alone we get into more Nova Scotians buying electric cars. That would be one example. If we get into electrifying our fleets at a municipal/provincial level - this is all energy consumption, so it’s going to go up, right? The key for us is that as demand increases, we want to ensure that the infrastructure’s in place, of course, to meet that demand, which I’m confident in.

At the same time, we’re decarbonizing, so we’re giving Nova Scotians more opportunities to consume less in their homes, whether they’re in a traditional home or their building a new home. There are lots of incentives there that are going to help drive down electricity consumption. It’s always a balancing act. It’s a case of we want to do our best to continue to be international leaders in the programs that we offer. There is more demand because our population is growing, that Nova Scotians are interested in electrification. We’re going to ensure that the programs that we implement allow them to continue to access more and more.

ALLAN MACMASTER: On the commercial side last year, would you say that power usage was stable? It didn’t really go up or down, but perhaps the coming year with Northern Pulp no longer in operation, it’s probably going to be reduced by at least the amount that they would use in a typical year?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: With Northern Pulp, they actually generated a lot of their own electricity, so it wouldn’t have a significant impact on the output from Nova Scotia Power.

ALLAN MACMASTER: That’s good to know. I was kind of under the impression that our power consumption was decreasing, but it’s clear to me it’s more stable than anything else.

I’ll move on to energy pricing. You have touched on this, as well, in terms of the pricing of renewable energy coming down and becoming more competitive with the energy we’ve traditionally been using in the province. What does energy pricing look like out there? Perhaps the URB would be the ones to ask specifically in terms of Nova Scotia Power, but I’m curious if the department has a rough idea based on coal pricing, oil and gas, wind, Muskrat Falls, natural gas - I know they do burn some oil, as well.

To be able to perform their tasks in guiding the industry or in guiding programs that you’re coming up with, what does the department currently have in terms of pricing for all of those inputs?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We do our best to try to track what the prices of traditional sources of energy would be. It’s hard to say what that is exactly right now, just because of the fluctuation. There is a process right now that Nova Scotia Power is engaged in, their integrated plan looking at the future of energy consumption. We know that in some jurisdictions now - on the renewable side, you have solar and wind coming in at four and three cents per kilowatt hour. These prices have come down drastically.

Nova Scotia Power is engaged in that process. They’re looking at what their energy mix is going to look like into the future. And, of course, Maritime Link is coming online later in the year, so these all play into the mix of what that overall price is going to be. The traditional fuel, it fluctuates. Nova Scotia Power would have that process with the URB in determining what their overall rates are.

For us as a province, we are in a time where we’ve seen unprecedented rate stability. The three-year plan that is in front of the URB sees increases of less than the cost of inflation. That would take us into 2022. We’re going to continue to develop programs so Nova Scotians can continue to save on their energy bills, which we’re seeing on average now about $900 a year.

To answer your question, there is an integrated resource plan that Nova Scotia Power is going to go out and consult on. What we’re doing is looking at other jurisdictions to determine what as a government we can do to support different energy sources coming on the system.

ALLAN MACMASTER: In terms of wind, I think it had been around 9 cents per kilowatt hour for large wind farms. Some of them have been around for a number of years, and maybe there are new contracts to be signed for future energy purchases. Is it your feeling that even some of those existing windmills that are up in this province now, when they do come up for renegotiation - is it possible that they could, in fact, be dropping from 9 cents per kilowatt hour down to 4 to 5 cents per kilowatt hour?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Some of those contracts would be confidential, but they are already pretty competitive on some of the older infrastructure. We as a department - I use the example of Green Choice. Green Choice is the federal government wanting to green their infrastructure by 2022.

We see wind potentially as part of that. That process isn’t completely designed yet but it could be a combination. Some of the older infrastructure that’s there is already competitive. There’s some confidential information around that, but we see wind as a big part of our future. The conversations that I’ve had with companies that have come into the department - they all have varying technologies, of course. However, some of the newer wind infrastructure in other jurisdictions is larger, more efficient, and will come in at extremely competitive prices. I can say with a level of confidence that whatever the future energy mix will be in this province, wind will be a part of it. There’s no question.

ALLAN MACMASTER: As we move toward more and more wind, what does the province see as the way to offset when the wind isn’t blowing? I know there’s been some really creative solutions, like Port Hawkesbury Paper not running their plant when there’s no wind blowing and running it when the winds are blowing - things like that. I know there have been a lot of creative solutions, but what does the province envision as balancing to ensure that we’re not having blackouts?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: There are a number of things that we see. Some of it has already been developed and designed and will play a big impact. The Maritime Link is part of that. That energy source is going to allow us to expand our renewables even more. That is a supply of energy that is there. If you look at hydro, you and I talked briefly about a proposal from the URB now when you look at - I use Wreck Cove as an example. That is a very significant project within the energy mix of Nova Scotia Power. That’s clean, that’s something that they want to invest in, so that’s important.

One of the things I talked about earlier that is an emerging technology is battery storage, which I believe is going to play a significant role in the future of energy consumption of Nova Scotians. I’m looking at smart technology around power consumption, looking at how small businesses can get into that, as well. With solar, as I’ve said, the price point has gone down.

We’re seeing some great uptake, not only from the residential side, but we’ve also had incentives for community organizations to actually put solar in. We are in conversations now with communities across the province looking at solar farms and what the future of virtual net metering may look like. We’re going out for consultation on that.

These are all pieces of it, but there is a balance here - you and I have talked about this before. It’s not as easy as just flipping that switch to say we’re going to renewable, because you need to have that sustainable energy source. Maritime Link’s going to play a big part in that. Hydro’s going to play a big part in that, I think. Nova Scotia Power is looking at this, as well, in their Integrated Resource Plan. This year all the conversations that we’re having, determining what is going to be the best path forward for us as a province, will be to ensure that if we’re going to get to net zero, that all the infrastructure is in place to do that without any disruptions. Many facets to it, but all very interesting, all very exciting stuff.

ALLAN MACMASTER: In terms of hydro, I would think with Muskrat Falls, Nova Scotia Power has an agreement to purchase a certain amount of production there, and I think they got it at a pretty good price. I think it’s 7.8 cents per kilowatt hour. I could be wrong on that. I expect if they wanted to purchase more than that, the price would be quite a bit higher, given the cost overruns and that. What potential does that have in terms of assisting to offset when the wind isn’t blowing?

[7:00 p.m.]

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We actually paid $1.6 billion for 20 per cent of the power that comes over the Maritime Link. That’s the price we paid. We’ll look at that as an opportunity, but what we’re also doing as a department is looking at other jurisdictions where maybe we can obtain more power, whether it’s from another province through a partnership with them, looking at the New England states. We’ll look at every option to ensure that we can get the best price for Nova Scotians. It’s not just based solely on capital at that point. We’ll shop around so we can determine what we believe is in the best interest of Nova Scotia and what the best price is.

ALLAN MACMASTER: I guess it was $1.6 billion for the 20 per cent share and then on top of that you’d pay a certain amount per unit of energy produced? Okay. Just for the record there, the minister did indicate . . .

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Yes, you are correct.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you. Twenty per cent of Muskrat Falls is probably quite a bit of energy. Would that be more than we would need to offset our renewable energy when it’s not able to generate power? Could you give some indication around that?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: The Maritime Link will for sure provide us with 10 percent of our overall electricity needs. We predict that that will probably be over 20 per cent of our electricity needs, but ultimately what the Maritime Link is going to do is help us offset some of the renewables that are on our system and that we want to put on our system. To answer your question, it would be at least 10 per cent, but we predict over 20 per cent of our overall consumption will come from the Maritime Link.

ALLAN MACMASTER: I think you said at least 10 per cent of the 20 per cent, so half of the amount that would be - have the rights to use, we’d be able to use - we would need, which would leave the other 10 per cent possibly for export?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: As I’ve said, 10 per cent of our overall electricity needs is the baseline that we would gain from the Maritime Link. We predict over 20 per cent. Now, the energy that would be potential for export, that wouldn’t be for us to decide. We could competitively go after it, but that wouldn’t be for us to decide what the export is.

ALLAN MACMASTER: I think that’s clear to me now - 10 per cent of the overall power usage of Nova Scotia Power would be what we would have to use in terms of quantity of power coming from Muskrat Falls. Is that at a minimum? Okay.

I guess I’ll just ask a question about natural gas because we know natural gas is always sort of in use as a good way to offset. Can the minister comment on natural gas going forward? Is the supply secure? I know there are probably long-term contracts in place to protect pricing, in terms of pricing for consumers. It does work well as an offsetter for renewable energy right now until, of course, you get better battery storage and things like that. Can the minister comment on natural gas in terms of its pricing and in terms of its future, in terms of its mix with other energy inputs at Nova Scotia Power?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: There’s no concern around natural gas supply. Both Heritage and Nova Scotia Power have - they would deal with their own gas contracts for the utility, but as I said in my opening comments, natural gas will continue to be a big part of our energy mix here in the province.

From the energy consumption side, we know that it heats and is utilized in a lot of homes in communities across the province. It heats our hospitals, it heats our schools, so as we transition, I still believe - we know that natural gas is going to be a big part of the overall energy mix with the province.

From an exploration standpoint, as I said in my opening comments, natural gas has created close to $4 billion in monies that have come to Nova Scotia, that have been used in various capacities, whether through rural highways or hospitals or schools and services that Nova Scotians use on a daily basis. We’ll continue to pursue those opportunities, as I’ve said.

I also am a strong believer that we have LNG as a great export opportunity, as you know in your neck of the woods. I know there have been some conversations about that project as of late, with the changing of hands, but we’re still very supportive of it. We see that as an opportunity for not only this province but also for lowering the GHGs of countries around the world. We want to continue to promote that.

To answer your question, for the foreseeable future, LNG will continue to play a part in everyday Nova Scotian use as we transition into newer technologies, but I also believe we can help support the rest of the world.

ALLAN MACMASTER: I want to move to the solar program. I think I heard you say the other day that the province has received some awards for the program - I presume that’s the one that provides what I think may be currently an $85 rebate maximum for residential consumers. I think you mentioned in your opening remarks that 500 Nova Scotia homes availed themselves of the rebate last year. Could you give me some sense of what you expect to see in the upcoming year in terms of projected uptake for that program and what the rebate value will be for the next year?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: It’s been quite amazing to see how Nova Scotians have utilized solar. The overall rebate right now is $6,000. That’s what somebody could apply for, a maximum of $6,000. I can tell you that, and I’ve said it in my opening statements - we’ve hit 500. We have 1,000 that are interested right now, to give you an idea of the popularity of the program. We see the popularity on the residential side, but we’re really seeing it on the economic side too because - as I said in my opening statements - in one year we went from 13 solar installers to 60. It has essentially created hundreds of jobs across the province in the sector. It’s been very strong.

As you mentioned, energyhub.org, which is an independent organization, ranked us number one in Canada because of the program, because of the incentive, the financing option, and the lower installation costs of it. Companies have been into the department frequently to work with staff and I give a lot of credit to our staff that built this program.

The response has been great. I don’t expect any difference, really, at this point. For us, not only do we have a strong program, we also have a lot of work that is to come for these companies. We want to move as quick as we can, but it’s been a great success. We want to continue to support it, and Nova Scotians want it.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Is the price dropping for these solar kits that are being installed? The rebate is dropping, presumably, because more and more people are interested in it. Perhaps there’s less need to provide the incentive. It’s been around for a few years now, this program. Is the price to install these solar kits on people’s homes dropping, and is it becoming even more affordable? I don’t know if you can provide some numbers on that.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: You’re correct in part of it because the installation costs have dropped about 50 cents per watt. It’s been significant, but the workforce is actually getting more skilled at the installation and we have more companies so there’s more competition, so the price is also coming down.

Such a great success story of all of this, too, is that along with the price of the actual product coming down, it’s the companies that have come forward that have trained their folks. We’re working with the community college now to train even more people in the solar industry here because we know that the demand is there. This is just on the residential side.

We’re seeing it on the community side. We have over 70 projects that have been approved under our community solar program. One of the examples is one of the schools on the north side was successful. A number of Mi’kmaw communities have utilized the program. We’re seeing that, as well. These companies are also taking advantage of that program.

One of the exciting things we’re looking at for the future is solar gardens. There are a number of communities across the province we’re engaging with now that are looking at solar gardens and the concept of virtual net metering, where we can ensure that as many Nova Scotians as possible can utilize the lower energy costs that can be derived by these solar farms.

This has been one of those really amazing stories that have come under the department in the last 12 to18 months. Kudos to everybody involved because the solar industry has been great to work with. This industry is really emerging, with nothing but growth in the future.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Are the panels getting better? I know once you buy these systems, you’re essentially locked in for as long as they’re warrantied, which is about 25 years in most cases, I think. Are the panels getting better? Are they generating more power per square inch? That certainly helps, as well, as an incentive for people.

[7:15 p.m.]

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: My colleague here talked about how these panels are becoming denser, so they actually can pick up more energy. That’s one of the reasons why. It’s like any other technology, it’s just going to get better. That’s why these are so attractive now, it’s because the price points have come down so much that solar is now an option that community organizations want to utilize. We have large-scale organizations looking at solar, saying this can be part of our goal to green our infrastructure. It’s a great story, and I believe it’s only going to get more competitive.

ALLAN MACMASTER: I’ll move on. This is one that’s really for the Department of Environment, but I just want to bring it to your attention. A number of people in the province have run-of-river hydro - it’s very small, but it does help them run their homes. The cost to get a permit each year runs into the hundreds of dollars. If you’re generating maybe a couple thousand dollars worth of power over the course of a year, it means a lot to you if your home is only using that. If you’ve got to shell out $600 for a permit, it’s kind of discouraging. I know there’s a cost.

Full disclosure here - I recently wrote the Department of Environment and the response that they came back with was: We feel the fees justify the cost to go out and inspect these sites. I thought, well, I suppose, but the reason most of these people have these sites is because they care about the environment. No doubt they do need to be inspected, but to me, if you want to encourage this kind of activity, they really should be looking at lowering the fees because, practically, they’re not encouraging people to do it. They’re, in fact, discouraging people.

I guess I bring it to your attention because I know it may be under the silo of Environment, but it is an energy issue and I wanted to bring it to your attention. I don’t know if you have a comment.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Where did you say it was at?

ALLAN MACMASTER: This would be if people happen to have a river beside their home, they would divert a percentage of the water through a pipe. I’m forgetting the correct term for the pipe now, but the pipe diverts the water and it gets to a point - maybe a hundred feet or more later, where it drops it and you’ve got a turbine there that spins and you’ve got a little powerhouse that converts it to electricity and sends it up to your home.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I’m aware that you sent some correspondence to us, as well. I know that our staff has followed up with the Department of Environment on the letters that you would have sent through. It is a Department of Environment issue, but duly noted. I appreciate you telling me.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you, minister. I will leave it at that, but I would encourage you to maybe give them a little push there because my efforts didn’t work. Maybe yours will.

We’re looking at increasing the renewables, and I think you’ve kind of said this already, but maybe you could just clarify. Going forward in the next 10 years, what do you see as the energy mix for the province, for Nova Scotia Power, for if we’re going to be moving and increasing our renewables? Where do you see that coming from?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: It’s on Nova Scotia Power’s website. They are saying that by the end of next year, there will be 60 per cent generated from renewables. That’s an important statistic. That’s with the connection of the Maritime Link. We’re expanding our programs every day so everyday Nova Scotians - we’re going to do our best to ensure that they can utilize all of the programs that we have. From a community perspective, as I’ve said, we’re looking at electrification of fleets and transportation. We’re going to be doing our part.

Overall, I can’t predict what Nova Scotia Power’s eventual blueprint is going to look like because they’re going through that Integrated Resource Plan now, but I would suspect that wind will play a part in it, solar will play a part in it, and battery storage will too if we can figure that out once and for all. If you start moving battery storage into residential homes and other operations, for me personally if we’re talking back and forth, that’s going to be the real game changer. Of course, natural gas will still be part of that mix, but really there’s great opportunity in the next decade when it comes to all of these.

We’re into large-scale projects now, that Nova Scotia Power’s going to be involved with when it comes to our overall targets and their targets of greening their infrastructure. We’ve made the commitment as a government to net zero by 2050. We’re going to continue to expand our programs. There’s the government piece of it that we’re going to be involved with in partnership with Nova Scotia Power, but it’s really the technology that’s really driving this. It’s a big piece of it.

Solar has become more affordable for Nova Scotians to utilize. Electric vehicles are starting to come down in price, which, again, this all goes towards the electrification of the things we use every day, which will all play into what Nova Scotia Power’s going to do with their supply. Broadly speaking, 60 per cent by 2021 is going to be renewable. Wind and solar and hydro, I’m sure, are going to play a big part in their mix moving forward. They’re going to determine that through their Integrated Resource Plan, which is ongoing.

From our perspective as a government, what we want to ensure is that we’re working with them on that, but we’re also looking at the everyday programs that Nova Scotians can utilize, ensuring that we’re doing whatever we can so they can utilize those programs - so, electrification at home - and supporting some of the larger industrial projects. You know, we’ve talked about Port Hawkesbury Paper, we’ve talked about some of the other incentives that we want to put in place, and we’re going to continue to do that.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Would you say that that is going to help to bring rate stability for Nova Scotia Power consumers? I’ll let you answer that and then I have another quick one, and then I’m probably done.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: There’s a number of points in that question and again, of course, it’s always about the balance. As you put more renewables on, you need to ensure that, as we put on incentive programs, as many Nova Scotians as possible can utilize them. That’s why I always say in my remarks that as we add something new, when we look at - which I’m sure I’ll be asked about with virtual net metering and some of the newer things that we’re looking at - first and foremost, it was about ensuring that the most vulnerable Nova Scotians don’t see intense spikes with some of this stuff.

We’re into eight years of rate stability now - as I’ve said, for the next three years we’re under the rate of inflation. We’re adding programs for Nova Scotians to utilize. With us building our infrastructure, when it comes to the renewable side homegrown in the province here, what it also helps with is spikes in fuel. As part of the overall rate structure, when Nova Scotia Power goes before the URB, fuel plays a part in that. If we’re generating power from domestic resources instead of trying to import more fuel sources, that also helps us stabilize rates.

As I’ve said, we’re going to continue to ensure that, as we do this, we’re protecting our most vulnerable Nova Scotians from rate spikes, but also ensuring that they can utilize the programs. That’s why we’ve expanded everything past just electrically heated homes. That’s why the HomeWarming program has helped so many Nova Scotians, because that has been a big part of our conversation in determining - as we go to a greener future, there has to be a balance.

ALLAN MACMASTER: One last question, minister. There are limitations to the grid and how much energy can be put on it. Is there an opportunity to import power from Hydro-Québec? God knows what they would charge for it, but is that something that you’re envisioning in the future, as well? Is it possible to be doing it now? I’ll let you answer.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Similar to what I said with the Maritime Link. Maritime Link we spent $1.6 million - 20 per cent. We are engaged with our sister provinces when it comes to the Atlantic strategy around electricity and what that means. Could that mean Quebec? Possibly. Could it mean other jurisdictions when it comes to energy? Of course. What we’ll do in that process is determine, really, what a roadmap looks like for flow of electricity, but also what’s ultimately in the best interest of Nova Scotia rate payers. We’re engaged in those conversations now.

ALLAN MACMASTER: I guess I get another question. Let’s see if I’ve got a quick one here. There’ll be $2.1 million spent on the petroleum resources division this year. I realize that these things don’t happen overnight, but currently there’s no return on investment for that right now. I know sometimes you have to invest maybe years in advance before there’s another project, but it must be discouraging not to see any activity out there right now.

I think of Warren Buffett today. I think he said, no, he was planning to invest $4 billion in an LNG terminal in Quebec and he decided it wasn’t a safe investment environment to do so, in the country. He doesn’t care about politics; he just cares about making money. He’s good at it, so that scares me. How do you feel about that?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I would elaborate if we had more time, but I’ll give you my overall thoughts on it. A lot of credit needs to go to the staff in the department. As I said in my opening comments, our success in the offshore really is the record of Nova Scotians because multiple governments have benefited from the success of the offshore. There’s not only the economic success, but the safety and environmental records in coexisting with our fishery and other traditional industries.

I still see great potential in our offshore. We have an amazing workforce of Nova Scotians that worked in that project for two decades, that has generated millions of dollars in training additional Nova Scotians in various fields to work in the industry.

As you said, it’s a long game. If you look at the Sable project - and you can correct me if I’m wrong, Kim - there may have been 20 years between the actual discovery and the eventual operation of what it is. For us, we’re going to continue to invest in the . . .

[7:30 p.m.]

THE CHAIR: Order. Sorry. The time has elapsed for the PC Party. We move on to the NDP.

The honourable member for Dartmouth North.

SUSAN LEBLANC: Thank you very mch, Madam Chair. Thank you, minister, for the opening comments that I heard. I am in the unfortunate position tonight of being critic of both TIR and Energy, so at about 20 minutes to the end of my time I’m going to hand my time over to Ms. Roberts, so that I can run over and ask questions in TIR. I’d also like to thank all of your staff who are here tonight and who also work hard and tirelessly on many things throughout the year.

In your opening comments, the part that I heard was all about offshore oil and natural gas. I kind of couldn’t believe my ears because of all the things we’ve been talking about in the House and all of the debates that we’ve been having about greenhouse gas reductions. I was told that you did talk about energy efficiency and those things before I came in the room, but I heard you talking about all those great projects and that there’s way more to do in those industries, that you’re going to de-risk the oil and gas industries.

I’m just wondering how you can square all of that exploration in oil and gas and other energies that contribute to our greenhouse gas emissions with all of the amazing work that the Department of Energy and Mines is doing in efficiencies. The targets are strong, as you point out to me on a fairly regular basis. How are we going to reach them if we’re also going to explore and use oil and natural gas?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: This is one of the biggest conversations we have in the Department of Energy and Mines. I think it actually gets lost in a lot of the conversation. There is a connection between what we do, whether it’s in the offshore or the mining side of the department, and what we’re doing in efficiency.

As a budget, we have a $63 million budget. Over $2 million is spent in the offshore and $44 million is spent in clean energy and climate change. We do spend a lot of resources on the programs that we talk about, and I’m proud of the staff, I really am. The work that we’ve been doing in the last number of years has made us number one in solar, number one in efficiency, and number one in workforce training. These are significant milestones for Nova Scotia, to lead in those important categories.

As I said in my opening comments, every political stripe has benefited from the work that the department has done in conjunction with the industry over two decades in the offshore. Second-to-none environmental record, second-to-none safety record, $4 billion in revenue, which paid for schools, hospitals, programs that Nova Scotians use every day.

The other piece of this conversation is that those products that Nova Scotians are utilizing when they buy solar panels or we install windfarms, or you buy a cellphone, or you use a cellphone - these are all designed and built with petroleum products and mineral resources. For us, it’s always about the balance.

I say this about mining, too. We have over 5,000 Nova Scotians every day who are in the mining sector. They work for various companies. I had the opportunity to go down to visit the site in Moose River. Three hundred-plus employees, regardless of age. The people that I talked to are in their 30s, who are engineers that live in Halifax, that actually travel down, and they do that. They operate under very strict regulations that we put out that go to land reclamation, that look at community consultation, et cetera. Very similar to the offshore. Nova Scotia has one of the strongest safety and environmental records in the world. Our fisheries boomed at the same time that we were involved in the Sable project.

All that being said, there would not be solar panels, there would not be cellphones, there would not be windmills, there would not be batteries for electric vehicles, there would not be batteries in your house without these products. We cannot forget that in the conversation.

What I’m doing now in the department on the mining side is looking at staff, saying, okay, so, we have economic opportunities that are balanced with the new Mineral Resources Act that talk about putting the money up front for land reclamation, that looks at consistent water sampling, that looks at community consultation. You know, decisions that are based on science. What else should we be looking for?

If we want to continue to be number one in solar, number one in efficiency, if we want a greener energy future, it needs to be part of it but we need to do it right. That’s why we’re spending millions of dollars reclaiming former gold mine sites here, because the way it was done in the past is not the way it’s done now.

I’m very proud of the work that we’ve done in the offshore because it’s Nova Scotia’s record. I can’t say here’s the government, this is government. Hundreds and hundreds of Nova Scotia families worked in the offshore. Hundreds of students got scholarships because of that project that are now working in various industries - not considered just oil and gas or development. They’re working on the environmental side to look at strategies that will provide even more protections to the industry. We need to support it because if we don’t, we won’t have solar, we won’t have wind, we won’t have electric cars. Those are the great conversations that I have and it’s important work that we talk about every day with staff.

SUSAN LEBLANC: Yes, and we also won’t have a fishery if we don’t have a capping stack that can get to Nova Scotia in enough time before our fishery is ruined if there was an accident - just saying.

I do understand the connection between mining, for sure, and some of those materials and things. My questions was really about the GHG emissions, but I’m going to leave it there because we’re probably just going to keep bouncing around on it. I want to go on to other efficiency programs.

There’s a considerable bump in the department’s budget this year - over $14 million. I understand that $8.3 million is for the HomeWarming program. Firstly, is that correct?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I’ll give you a bit of a breakdown of that $14-plus million: $8.3 is HomeWarming; $2 million is the Affordable Rentals program - we put that in the budget this year; $3 million is through Green Infrastructure Canada - that’s the partnership with the feds; and then the Low Carbon Economy Fund is $1.6, so that would be some of your more community-based projects that we’re doing across the province.

SUSAN LEBLANC: Thank you. With the HomeWarming program, are you able to say how many households this figure is expected to reach, that $8.3 million?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: On average, that would do about 2,000 homes a year. Our target for the overall program is 25,000 homes that would benefit from the program. It would be about 2,000 homes a year and it varies depending on the home, but that’s our target.

SUSAN LEBLANC: Why do you have a target? Why do you have a cap? You said that the target is 25,000 homes, so why is there a cap on that? Do you think there are only 25,000 homes that would benefit from the program, or is that to reach some kind of GHG emissions target?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: There’s no cap to the program, so I probably should have used better language. This program wasn’t designed for GHG reduction. This is to support Nova Scotians that need help the most with their energy consumption. That’s fundamentally the foundation of the program. There’s no cap. Just based on what we’ve being doing over the years, because it predates our GHG push, it’s been 2,000 homes a year, with a goal of ideally supporting 25,000 homes.

SUSAN LEBLANC: It’s a great program. I have friends who’ve used it and they’re super happy with it, but it will also reduce GHG emissions. I know these aren’t exactly deep energy retrofits, but they are efficiency retrofits and that’s what we need to do. You may know that there are many people who are eligible for the program, but they don’t know about it, so I’m wondering what your department is doing to better promote the program.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Efficiency Nova Scotia is a big proponent in this. They do a number of initiatives to market the program to ensure that as many Nova Scotians as possible are aware of it. They’re everywhere, at conferences in various communities across the province to ensure that. I believe they’re doing a good job. Of course, if anybody has any questions about the program, we’re happy to make sure they get that information, so if you have anyone that is looking for information, we’re happy to assist. I will recognize Efficiency; they are doing tremendous work there and they’re ranked very high because of it.

SUSAN LEBLANC: We notice that the income cut-offs for the program are very low. You have said that this program is basically targeted at the people who need it most, but as we know, the cost of living is getting higher and higher. Many people who find themselves able to buy homes often are getting into situations where they really need more help. I’m wondering if you’ve had any consideration of raising the income cut-off so that more people could access the program, helping more people but also reducing more greenhouse gas emissions.

[7:45 p.m.]

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Statistics Canada uses the low income cut-off. That’s what we’re using as part of it. That’s kind of a baseline which we use. We’re making a number of investments to make sure that people can access it - not only in this program. Energy poverty is a big conversation that we have as a department. That’s why we’re looking at partnering with the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

We’re going to spend north of $11 million. We’re going to retrofit many of the public housing units across the province. That’s why we’re expanding and continuing to expand programs past just electrically heated homes to ensure that people can utilize these programs beyond what was currently there.

We’re also watching what the federal budget is going to bring down to us. When we see some of those initiatives come forward, we’ll do our very best to help promote them through the department, and see what we can do to partner with them to enhance our programs.

SUSAN LEBLANC: I’m going to move on a little bit now. You already mentioned this, but the budget includes $3 million of Canada Infrastructure funding. Can you please explain what that is and the details of how it’ll be used?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Specifically, if you’re looking at that money, I’ll provide some examples of some of the projects that are going to be completed. The Halifax bike lane project connecting Halifax-Dartmouth - there’s about 30 kilometres of bike network that we’re going to be putting in the infrastructure here. That would be part of that money.

As well, and I’ve talked about this a few times in the Legislature - this is a first-in-Canada agreement that we’ve made with our Mi’kmaw leaders in retrofitting 2,400 homes in communities across Nova Scotia. We’re very excited about that. We’re working with our communities now to start that project. First, some of the money would come out of there. The project’s going to start with retrofitting 900 homes over the next number of years.

We’re very excited about that one. As well, the project that I just mentioned with Housing Nova Scotia, I believe that’s 11,500 units we’re going to be involved with. Some of the money would be coming from that, too.

SUSAN LEBLANC: I’m pretty sure this is still accurate, that we’re working as a province towards a target of 40 per cent renewably generated electricity by 2020. Can you provide an update on the progress towards that goal?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Yes. We are still on target. When the Maritime Link connects, we will hit that target of 40 per cent.

SUSAN LEBLANC: Earlier I thought I heard you answer the member for Inverness - you were talking about 60 per cent of something by 2021. Was that renewable electricity?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Yes. NSP is predicting that by the end of 2021, 60 per cent of their energy consumption will be renewable.

SUSAN LEBLANC: What’s the current timeline for electricity from Muskrat Falls?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I don’t have a specific date, but we’re predicting by the end of the year.

SUSAN LEBLANC: As you may recall, our caucus introduced an amendment to the Sustainable Development Goals Act, asking that the province set a new target for electricity generated from renewables. The amendment did not pass. What updated targets are being considered for renewable energy?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Our target, of course, is 53 per cent below 2005 levels by 2030. There are a number of things that are going to happen to get us to that target. We’re seeing it now. The connection of the Maritime Link plays a big part in that.

We’re looking at all of the improvements to our efficiency programs to ensure that all Nova Scotians can utilize efficiency programs to reduce their own carbon footprint. We’re looking at the Green Choice legislation that I’m passing now, which is going to put more renewables on the system. We’re still aggressively pursuing those targets, and we’re spending the money to do it.

As we talked about with my colleague from the PC caucus, we were talking about technology over the next number of years and what that means. We’re seeing Nova Scotians aggressively utilize solar. We’re starting to see large-scale companies like Port Hawkesbury Paper look at wind, and we’re looking at new relationships between the utility and our large suppliers, looking at energy consumption. Those are some examples. Batteries are going to play a big part in that moving forward, I believe. As that technology becomes more competitive, which we predict is going to happen in the next number of years, that will play a big part in it. We’re well on our way to hitting that target.

SUSAN LEBLANC: If we have a target now of 40 per cent renewables by the end of 2020, if we have a hopeful bringing on of the energy from Muskrat Falls by the end of 2020, and then Nova Scotia Power has a target of 60 per cent renewables by the end of 2021, what’s happening in 2021 that’s going to make us go from 40 per cent to 60 per cent? That’s my A-part. I’m wondering, also, are you going to legislate or regulate a 60 per cent target?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: One of the big pieces of that is going to be imported electricity. Muskrat Falls is going to play a big part in that. Nova Scotia Power is going through an integrated resource plan now, which is also going to play a part in their planning moving forward, a lot of their planning moving forward, actually. If you’re asking, one of the biggest factors is going to be imported electricity.

SUSAN LEBLANC: Transportation represents 44 per cent of the province’s GHG emissions. In tandem with the project to green our electricity sources, we know that we will need to have a strong plan for electrifying the province’s transportation fleet, including private, commercial and public transportation. What targets or goals does the department have toward electrifying personal vehicles?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: There are a number of things we’ve done. We’re working with some outside stakeholders who are promoting electric vehicles across the province and the benefits of them to Nova Scotians. Not to go too far into the story, but I drove one from Halifax to Sydney for $16. It was very interesting. We did it in about five hours. I plugged it in wrong in New Glasgow, so we waited around for 20 minutes and the car wasn’t plugged in. Anyway, you can do the trip.

They’re coming down in price, too, so the car that I drove, I think on average it’s just in the $40,000 range. It was great, it brought a lot of promotion to it. We’re spending money on marketing and promotion. We’re looking at incentives in other jurisdictions to determine what a future incentive for an electric vehicle could look like, but as I’ve said, kind of my focus in the last year has been to ensure that as many Nova Scotians as possible could utilize the monies that were available for various programs because not everybody is in the realm of buying a car, an electric car, at this point.

It’s like anything else with technology. As price points come down, more demand comes there. My primary focus has been on the Mi’kmaq home piece, the retrofits of public housing units, putting a program in so we can give renters more ability to access some of the savings that come with efficiency.

Looking from an electric vehicle perspective through the charging network, we have about 100 charging stations across the province now. Some of them are different levels, depending - we were going to level three charge stations, which, ideally, we would have as many of those as possible across the province. We know some of the private companies are starting to pop up on the outskirts of the city now, I’m noticing on my drives from home. The charging network is a big piece of that, as well. We’re going to continue to do that.

From a community perspective, as I said in my comments before, we have our two largest municipalities now looking at electrification of their fleets, which I think is great. You look at CBRM with all of the growth that has been happening at home lately, our population is up and demand is up. We’ve been scrambling to really meet that growth, to support the municipality and beefing up their transportation options. I think they’re in a great position because they’re in a growth mode. They’re kind of going from a transportation system that was very small, to all of a sudden, we need more.

We want to electrify that as we’re going. We’re working with them on studies to determine what infrastructure they need in place for charging stations for their buses and what a new bus hub would look like. To support that, Halifax has much more - transit’s been a bigger piece of their infrastructure for a longer period of time. It’s a bit of a transition for them because they have such a large traditional fleet and they want to electrify - we’re engaged with them on that, too. We’re doing some pilots in rural Nova Scotia right now to look at options for communities that would have little to no transportation. We would look at electrification with them, as well. We’re aggressively looking at this.

The day is going to come, I think sooner than later, that you’re going to start seeing electric buses in communities. It takes a little bit of time to get them. When you actually have to order them it takes, like, a year-ish-plus in some cases. We want to move as quick as we can, and we’re encouraging that with our partners, too, that this is the way of the future.

These cars, if you look at the electric car and the things you learn when you actually drive one, is that there are 40 moving parts in the car I was in compared to the hundreds of moving parts. Like I said, it was $16 to drive from Halifax to Sydney. Actually, in some cases the car charged itself as we were going downhill, which I actually thought was very interesting. We’re going to get there.

We’re going to get there on an incentive, eventually, but my focus has been making sure that as we’re going to spend money on efficiency programs and we have the ability to expand, we need to support the most vulnerable Nova Scotians first and then we’ll move out into some of those programs that we know there’s demand for. We’ll be on the cusp of doing that stuff. We want the Mi’kmaq homes out, we wanted to get the regional housing piece out, we wanted to expand the programs past electrically-heated homes, and we wanted to implement a new incentive and hopefully build on it to support folks who are renting.

The next step will be some of these incentives, along with some of the other community projects when it comes to solar farms and trying to distribute those savings across a broader scope.

[8:00 p.m.]

SUSAN LEBLANC: What I hear there is that there’s interest and we’ll get there. Great. I know the federal government already has a $5,000 incentive rebate for vehicles. Now, I’ve never purchased a vehicle - and I’m probably going to have to, unfortunately, in the next couple of years, maybe the next year - and it seems to me, when I’ve been looking into the future and looking at could I get a hybrid, could I get an electric vehicle - that, really, for someone - for the average person, I would say - unless electric vehicles are the same price as non-electric vehicles, people are not necessarily going to choose them.

There will be a portion of the population who can afford it and will say, I’m going to do my part, but obviously they need to be competitive. I know that prices come down, but we could be doing so much more. In my opinion, I think we should at least match the federal incentive - that would be a total of a $10,000 rebate. That would help considerably, so the prices could be more competitive. (Interruption) I see them whispering over there, Mr. Chair, so maybe they’re going to announce something better than that. Maybe they’re going to say a $10,000 Nova Scotia rebate. That would be very exciting.

I have to go soon, but the minister talks about the great programs that are happening - the Mi’kmaq retrofits, helping the most vulnerable Nova Scotians. Of course, I am all for that. However, in the way that the minister speaks of it, he’s basically saying we have this much money and we’re making choices - which I totally get - but imagine what could happen if there was more money.

With this budget, the government is making choices of where it’s putting its money. Imagine if the Minister of Energy and Mines had $10 million more, or let’s say $70 million, which is the corporate tax cut that’s going to be happening. Imagine what we could do with $70 million when we’re talking about energy efficiency. I just want to point that out, that where we are hearing about sacrifices or things that have to be done first, if we were truly visionary about this, we could do so much more, so much faster, and also be getting it right because we already know that these programs are working.

I just want to talk for a second about the coal phase-out. I understand that the province has reached an agreement with the federal government to be able to continue burning coal past 2030. What year will Nova Scotia be phasing out the burning of coal?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I’ll respond to your comment in its entirety. We have been consistently, significantly raising the budget for clean energy and climate change in the department over the last number of years. If we move too fast, then the most vulnerable Nova Scotians will feel it the most, and that’s the balance that we live every day is that you have to ensure that as we change our electricity mix, that we - because it is more expensive. It has been more expensive to put on the system. It impacts rates.

With the decisions that I make, it’s through a lens that every Nova Scotian can utilize the programs that we offer. We’re protecting - maybe protect is not the right word. We’re giving every Nova Scotian the ability - that if I put something new out there, that first and foremost the people that need it the most can access it. That’s the key for me from day one. With the money that we’ve spent in the department doing it, we’ve been able to do that. We’ve been able to expand programs.

I’ll say that I’m proud - and I’ve said it - that we’re spending a significant amount of money, and as a result of it we’re number one in efficiency, we’re number one in solar, and we’re number one in workforce. That’s Nova Scotia, best in Canada in those three key categories. We’re going to continue to expand, and I’ve said this multiple times tonight, we’re going to continue. We’ve seen a number of programs expand, all in the lens that first and foremost, if we have money to spend, every Nova Scotian’s going to get access to it if they can.

Once we get past that point, as I’ve said, we wanted to work with our Mi’kmaq communities, we wanted to expand programs past electrically heated homes, we wanted to ensure that every Nova Scotian has the best possibility to access it. We will eventually get to incentives around electric vehicles, I believe. We’re working on it, now we’re looking at other jurisdictions, but that wasn’t my first priority.

I’m happy to defend that anywhere because we had an opportunity to retrofit 11,500 public housing units. I made that decision first. We’ve made the decision to expand these programs first and we’re going to get there. We can’t move too fast because - we’re going to move as fast as we can, but we have to do it in a way - and this will go into answering the next part of your question - is that it’s been a balancing act for staff because these ultimately impact rates. They can have a significant impact on rates if we don’t do it in a balance. We' have unprecedented rate stability now and we want to stay there, and we want to make sure that rates are predictable for Nova Scotians.

That goes to your second point of coal closure. We have an agreement and we’re going to work towards that agreement, and eventually we will get there, but with the mindset that we’re going to protect rate payers at the same time. We’re going to continue to expand our programs, there’s no question. You’re seeing that now. The feds are going to have new incentives. We’re going to do our best to capitalize on them, to ensure that we’re continuing to reduce GHGs in the province. Eventually with coal, we’re going to phase it out in a way that builds on programs but also protects rate payers. The 53 per cent reduction in GHGs is the most aggressive in Canada and we’re going to hit that target.

SUSAN LEBLANC: Just a correction - in fact we are fourth in the country in efficiency according to Efficiency Canada’s report card, but we don’t need to argue that right now. You’re doing a great job, you’re doing a great job. There are lots of things going on that I really like, but we can also always do better, minister.

I have one more quick question, but I might have to go halfway through your answer. What I heard there was that we don’t have a firm deadline, or at least you’re not releasing a firm deadline, about coal phase-out. What is the government doing in preparation to ready the workers of coal generation plants for a phase-out?

DEREK MOMBOUQUETTE: Of course, that is always a big part of our conversation when it comes to - because there is a transition that will happen eventually. That’s why we’re promoting the training that we’re doing with NSCC.

On the efficiency side, we’re seeing it in solar right now - there’ve been hundreds of new jobs created in a year, when it comes to our solar energy. We went from 13 companies to 60 in 12 months. That’s significant as we look at what a transition looks like.

We know that on the Green Choice legislation that we’re passing, that’s going to be tens of millions of dollars in construction, which is going to be significant in parts of province where it’s going to employ people in green jobs. Efficiency - I know you have to leave, so good luck in TIR - this is all part of it.

These jobs have been around for a long time. They’re established in our communities in some of these plants, but at the same time the eventuality will come. It’s not going to come tomorrow, but when that time comes I think that technology is going to give many opportunities for Nova Scotians to transition.

SUSAN LEBLANC: Thank you.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Halifax Needham.

LISA ROBERTS: Thank you. I am going to continue with my colleague’s questions, but I’m going to allow myself one question of my own first. Just one.

I was surprised and disappointed to see a trend moving, I think, in the wrong direction around transportation. Even though the number of vehicles sold in Nova Scotia is actually going down, there’s a trend toward larger vehicles - large trucks. A number of people have suggested in analysis that because vehicles have gotten bigger - like SUVs and larger trucks - people now feel more afraid when they’re driving. They want to have a bigger vehicle so that they’re not the one with the little energy efficient e-vehicle next to the guy with the grill that’s up this high. Is the province even aware of this trend, and is there anything at all being considered either provincially or nationally in response to it?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: This is not a scientific answer to the question. It’s more of my own opinion. We’re not aware of the trend. What we’re aware of is that demand is starting to grow around electrification of vehicles. That’s why we started having conversations within jurisdictions when it comes to electrification because, really, that’s where our focus is. There’s a demand for it. As technology and price points reduce - and some of these larger vehicles are now starting to come in electric form, so we know that the demand is going to be there. That’s really our focus.

I can’t answer the question around the trend. I see it myself just because I drive so much. Crossover seems to be the smallest car of choice now for most people, but I know that in our world, you’re starting to see some of these bigger vehicles actually come out in electric form. It’s only going to increase. For us, if there are cars on the road, that’s one thing, but if we can electrify more of them, that’s beneficial in reducing our GHGs.

LISA ROBERTS: Thanks. Maybe I’ll find some of the pieces that I’ve read about it and share them with you and your deputy.

I understand that the deputy of your department sits on the forestry transition team. Can you share what your department’s role is on that team?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I appreciate deputy d’Entremont’s participation on that. He comes with a lot of knowledge and background when it comes to the economic side. That’s really the biggest role that we play in that, that supporting economic lens from the energy perspective, what opportunities may exist out there for the workforce. I talk about the great surge of energy efficiency in the province and the jobs that it’s creating and the infrastructure that I know is coming, what opportunities may be there for workers in the industry. From an energy perspective, looking at what potential energy maybe plays there, as well. That’s really the kind of lens that we use, and I appreciate the deputy’s participation on it.

[8:15 p.m.]

LISA ROBERTS: Thank you. I wonder if you can share whether increasing biomass use for electricity generation is part of the conversation at all, of the transition team.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We’re actually working with the Department of Lands and Forestry through that. We play a supporting role. There are a number of pilot projects that are happening across the province that’re looking at biomass - for heat, yes. We’re involved with those projects. We play a bit of a supporting role with them, but those specifically are being led through the Department of Lands and Forestry.

LISA ROBERTS: Thank you. I appreciate and am well aware of the new wood-heat plants, the six pilots that are going up across the province. I guess my question is more around biomass use for electricity - Point Tupper and Brooklyn biomass. I’m wondering if your department is involved in completing a life cycle analysis to determine the net greenhouse gas emissions from those facilities.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We as a department haven’t completed any lifecycle analysis. That would have been the Department of Environment that would have done that. To answer your question, not from our department but through the Department of Environment.

LISA ROBERTS: There are significant community concerns around St. Barbara’s proposed gold mine at Cochrane Hill. The proposed mine sits on the watershed of the St. Mary’s River, which is a significant piece of the effort to protect or restore Atlantic salmon populations in this part of the world, and the community has invested much time and resources in restoration and conservation efforts. Can you please provide an update on the proposal and a timeline for the assessment process?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: The environmental assessment is ongoing. There should be some movement on it within the next year. That process is still underway, so that’s really the best update I can give at this point. Like any project, they would have to go through that, and they’re going through that now.

I should have said this earlier on - this is a harmonized process. It would be federal-provincial. It’s still ongoing, so the timeline isn’t certain. They’re generally two years to complete, so that’s where it sits at this point right now.

LISA ROBERTS: You know that there are Nova Scotians who support making changes to our mineral rights legislation in order to clarify what lands are restricted from mining activity - such as watercourses, wetlands, community watersheds, agricultural lands, et cetera - and create criteria to guide the minister’s decision making around this, and also make changes to create other mechanisms for removal of land available for mining or to create more precise requirements under which mining is permitted. Is your department considering any changes to the Mineral Resources Act in order to respond to those requests?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: To answer the specific question around removing lands, not at this point. We don’t have any plans to change the legislation, but what I can say is that there’s a very robust process that any operation would have to go through before they could operate a mine in any area of the province. In some cases, private landowners give permission. That’s their right to do that. We see that in certain instances.

The Mineral Resources Act is very detailed when it comes to what an operation needs to go through to actually become a mine. There are federal and provincial processes, as we just talked about. There’s one ongoing for Atlantic Gold. They’re going through that process. Any development would have to do that.

Specifically to your question about removing land, not at this point. We have a number of operations around the province that are currently operating. They have a strong relationship with our department. They have to follow a very strict set of rules when it comes to the operation and the reclamation of the site with the end of any operation. We have thousands of Nova Scotians that are working in it every day. I mentioned this earlier - we’re involved with reclamation of former mine sites, spending significant funds to ensure that sites that don’t fall under the current rules and regulations are cleaned up. I think it’s a great process and it involves community consultation and feedback.

LISA ROBERTS: One of the things that we look for in a department like yours is separation between the promotion role and the regulation role. Your department does a significant amount of activity under promotion, certainly, including mapping and analysis of mineral deposits for industry use. Does your department play a role in regulation, as well?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: There are actually a number of departments that would be involved in any operation. Some of those decisions were made following Westray.

We govern the Mineral Resources Act, which is the actual mineral licence and the process around that. Safety falls under the Department of Labour and Advanced Education, so they play that safety role. In any operation, they have the strong relationship with our operations across the province, so there’s that piece of it. The Department of Environment plays the role of looking at the aspects of the operation - as we’ve talked about, the assessment that they would go through, whether it’s provincial or joint, looking at land, looking at species, et cetera.

There are a number of different departments that are involved. Our piece predominantly is the regulations under the Mineral Resources Act.

LISA ROBERTS: I’m about to make your staff screw you around. I have questions about the new Green Choice program created by the amendments to the Electricity Act. (Laughter) I knew it!

THE CHAIR: Ms. Roberts, you have five minutes left.

LISA ROBERTS: Okay. I’m wondering specifically if the provincial government will take advantage of the program for its own building stock?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Absolutely. It’s something that we’re definitely going to look at. The first reason for the Green Choice legislation was that the federal government wanted to green their infrastructure. They approached us and they wanted to build here and I want them to build here, so we moved as quick as we could. When we were designing the legislation, we asked well, why would we limit it? We want to make sure that we can include academia, and we can include larger companies that may want to do this because we are hearing that from them, that this is part of their mandate now. Some of these companies want to green their infrastructure.

We will eventually look at it, but it goes back to the comments I made when your colleague asked her question. My first focus - and credit to the department - is that we wanted to ensure that as many Nova Scotians as possible could utilize programs first. Looking at low-income Nova Scotians that are most vulnerable, that we know energy poverty is a big discussion piece for all of us. So, we did that.

We’re expanding now into a realm of larger organizations getting into the renewable side of their businesses. I see this as a natural progression. Eventually, provincially-owned facilities will probably be part of that. We’re looking at that with our own fleets, when it comes to the electrification of our own fleets. Are we there today? No, we’re not, but, of course, we’re going to watch how this rolls out. We’ll have companies that - we’re designing a process for competitive bid, that a third party will be involved with, for transparency. I think this is a great blueprint for us eventually doing it.

LISA ROBERTS: The federal government have so many properties, and each of those properties has an electricity bill. Do we know how much renewable energy this program is expected to add to the grid?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: This project will generate 100,000 megawatt-hours. It’s the equivalent of 10,000 homes.

LISA ROBERTS: Thank you. With two minutes -

THE CHAIR: Just under two minutes.

LISA ROBERTS: Okay. The CNSOPB has a similar budget this year to last year, with just a slight decrease, around $4 million. Given that there’s effectively no activity in Nova Scotia’s offshore, as well as significant coastal community opposition to exploration, do you think that this is appropriate and necessary?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: BP and Statoil are still active in the offshore, so we’re still working with those companies. We’re also taking the time to do some environmental work around what the future is going to look like when it comes to extraction on the offshore.

There’s still work to be done and the CNSOPB has a great reputation for the work that they do. They’re still very necessary in the conversation, not only from the resource development side but also from the environmental side because they have such a strong record. So, we support them.

LISA ROBERTS: Is your department considering a full, independent, public inquiry into offshore exploration, as called for by 11 coastal communities?

THE CHAIR: Order. The time has elapsed for the NDP.

We will take a break and resume when everybody’s back. Thank you.

[8:30 p.m. The subcommittee recessed.]

[8:36 p.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]

THE CHAIR: Order. We are resuming with the PC Party.

The honourable member for Inverness

ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you, Madam Chair. Nice to be back here, minister.

What percentage of our energy consumption in terms of fossil fuels could we produce domestically? I suppose, theoretically, we’d produce 100 per cent of it quite easily if we had some offshore activity. I guess the reality is that we’re not. The onshore is really non-existent and I don’t think there’s any real potential there at the moment for onshore. Maybe I’m wrong. I’ll let you comment on that, and I know offshore is probably years away, but I’ll let the minister comment.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: On the onshore, the moratorium remains on hydraulic fracturing and shale. We have told communities that if you have, I guess, partnership with Mi’kmaq and the community and you have a project, of course we would listen to it, but I’ll reiterate that the moratorium still remains - hydraulic fracturing onshore and shale rock.

Now, I’ve been following - there’s been some conversations that have happened in some communities around the province, where they’ve been organic in nature, where communities have come forward or the chambers of commerce have brought them up. We’re watching those conversations, but nobody in my time as minister has come forward strongly from any community to say that they are in support of it. We’ll continue to monitor.

We’re going to continue to do science in the department, so staff is always engaged in those conversations with other jurisdictions. I’ve had the opportunity to talk to some of my counterparts in other parts of the country about it, but at this point, the moratorium remains.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Is it safe to say that most oil and gas companies are not really interested unless they can do hydraulic fracturing or have the potential to be able to do it?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We’re continuously engaged with companies that will come in and talk about their technologies. They will talk about hydraulic fracturing and shale; they’ll talk about coal-bed methane, which is a different process using nitrogen gas instead of water. A lot of the conversations in my time have been on the offshore.

As I’ve said, I’ve spent some time in other jurisdictions like Houston talking to some companies about the potential of Nova Scotia, promoting the story that has been Sable, and the economic benefit we’ve seen as a province, but also the skilled workforce that we have here in the province to support their investment here. Those conversations are happening daily - more so on the offshore than on the onshore. We still have interest right now.

As I’ve said, we have two companies that are out there. We’re still doing our geoscience work, our Play Fairway analysis, when it comes to where we think the best spots are for hydrocarbons on the offshore, and we’re going to continue to do it.

As I’ve said previously, this is the mix between our traditional energy and our new energy, and they are going to coexist for an extended period of time. We need to continue to support it, we need to continue to invest in it to ensure that not only are we capitalizing on economic opportunities, but we’re doing it in the most sensitive way to the environment.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you, minister. I’d like to move to mineral resource development. What does the department think that mineral resource development could be contributing to our economy? I know Atlantic Gold is one project that’s happening right now, but in terms of jobs, royalties, economic spinoffs, what is the potential for mineral resource development in our economy?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I said it in my opening comments, but there’s a lot of great potential in mineral resources. I want to recognize Don and his staff who are doing this work every day, similar to what we do on the offshore. They play a big part in working with prospectors across the province and beyond. They were in Toronto just this past week. I wish I was with them, but I had to be here with you. (Laughter) That’s okay, you’re from Inverness, but anyway.

They’re out promoting the potential that we have. If you look at it from an industry perspective, we actually doubled the fund in the last year. We went to $1.5 million in the funds. We have a number of organizations and companies that have used that fund for their exploration purposes. I think we’ve had 1,400 exploration licences in the last year - last year, I believe, Don? That’s pretty significant when you think of the exploration that’s happening around the province.

People are looking for various minerals and metals in the ground. There’s $722 million. That was the purchase of Atlantic Gold from St. Barbara. That’s the type of money you’re looking at when you’re in this operation. You’re looking at 1,400 exploration licences. This is a big driver, as you would know, sir, in our communities.

Mining has a long history on the Island, no matter where you’re from, and even today there’s approximately 5,500 Nova Scotians that are working in the industry, predominantly in rural areas of the province.

As I’ve said in my conversation with our colleagues from the NDP, we all carry around a cellphone. You wouldn’t have a cellphone if we didn’t mine. We won’t have solar panels if we don’t mine. You won’t have windmills if you don’t mine. It’s more important in the cleaner energy conversation than it has ever been before, but what is very different today as compared to in the past is that we’ve taken a number of steps to ensure that if companies do business in our province, they have to put the money up front to reclaim their sites.

We have a very thorough Mineral Resources Act, which we govern within the department. As a province, we’re spending millions of dollars on former mine sites that we need to clean up. As well, the three of us were in Cranbrook last year, where we’ve been asked as a province - and we’re happy to partner with the federal government, looking at a national strategy around reclamation of mine sites across Canada. I’m very proud of the department and the work that they’re doing.

From an economic standpoint, you’re looking at some of the acquisitions that have happened in the last year in this province alone. I can tell you, as a guy who used to sell nuts and bolts for a living, and fasteners and power tools and construction supplies, I know how much a mine will buy. They buy a lot, let me tell you, and it puts a lot of food on the table for a lot of families around the province. We need to continue to support it but support it in the realm in which we live today.

[8:45 p.m.]

ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you, minister. I certainly relate to your comment about mining in the area. My own father was born in Timmons because his father was working in the mines there and the man I was named after was working there, too. We have a long history of mining. I know times change, and I think you kind of alluded to the environment we’re living in today, but you’ve also made a good point that we’re all using these things. We’re all driving cars, burning fuel, and that’s life unless we’re going to go back to some kind of a pioneer-type lifestyle, which I think most people are not. Some people will do it and they try to live that way, but most people - it’s just not in the cards.

Would the minister have sort of a round number of what per cent of GDP, what per cent that mineral resource development is contributing to our GDP now and if there’s any projected increase over the coming year?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: It’s about 2.5 per cent GDP. Just a comment, even if people wanted to live off the grid, they still need to generate electricity and you still need to mine to generate the products to generate that electricity. It’s going to be part of who we are, but to answer your question specifically, it’s about 2.5 per cent.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you, minister. I totally see that. I guess, in practical terms, we know we have to do this. We have to have mines, we need energy. I have never heard anybody in the Legislature over there advocate that we should just turn off all the lights and shut everything down for hours every day to avoid using fossil fuels.

I mentioned Warren Buffett earlier and his concern. Practically, we need these things, but we’re in an environment where they’re very unpopular. We have the moratorium on hydraulic fracturing in the province. I know that’s very controversial and raises a lot of emotion.

I guess my question, minister, is: Where are we going? If we need these things, it seems to me that Canada as a country - I can appreciate this is beyond you, this is well beyond Nova Scotia, but Canada as a country is really becoming an unsafe geopolitical area to invest in. From the blockades of the rail lines to Warren Buffett pulling out of a major investment in Quebec. Alberta is reeling, their economy is reeling. There’s a lot of division across the country. We’re still using fossil fuels. In a lot of cases, we’re bringing it in from other countries that might not have the same kinds of environmental protections we have in place.

I think a lot of this points to the fact that people, maybe just philosophically, feel good about shutting down development. Maybe there’re people out there that philosophically feel good about that and they feel like that’s the way they’re contributing, but we’re still using these things. We still need them. Society still wants it. Why aren’t we creating environmental policies that give people confidence? That if we’re going to have these things, we might as well supply them to ourselves if we can. What’s stopping us from that?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: This is a bit of some info in my own personal thought after having the privilege of holding this portfolio for the last 17 months. It goes back to what I kind of talked about before and what I think is kind of lost in the conversation. We have traditional mining in the province, whether it’s a salt mine or a coal mine or a gold mine. They provide commodity, but they’re also economic opportunities. We’ve taken a number of steps to ensure environmental protection, community consultation, so that’s part of the narrative of what I try to talk about when I have the opportunity to speak to stakeholders. A bit of that is on me.

The part that people - I’ve been really trying to tell is the new narrative, is mining in today’s society where there’s such a demand. We heard about it all night, just the questioning and the conversation back and forth is that solar, wind, renewable, electrification - I just got a note here: there’s 21 metals in a cellphone. We all have a cellphone. If we don’t mine, there’s no way that we can produce these products. This is not new; this is the way the world has been. We need to mine our resources.

I think it’s one of our greatest opportunities because a lot of it is domestic. We have companies that are coming in. We’re not shipping products really long distances. If somebody wants to come in, that’s on the company to do that. This is product that is in the ground here in our province that we can be using to support many of the renewable ambitions that Nova Scotia is leading the country in, and North America in a lot of cases. I see a lot of great opportunity, but I think part of it, for me, is going to be continuing to tell that story that they need to coexist.

I read my own articles about the shortages of certain metals. We talk about the Teslas of the world and designing these large batteries to support electric cars. We need the minerals to do it or we’re not going to be able to do it. It’s that simple. If you want these products, if you want to green your infrastructure, you need to mine, but you need to do it in a way that - I believe we’re doing it right here in the province is that - we’ve built a legislation that supports reclamation, that supports community consultation, that supports water monitoring, that looks at some of the - we’re spending money to reclaim former sites that never fell under these rules. That’s really it.

I think there’s great potential, but I think - and this is outside of the department - as a society we need to do it and we need to do it in a way that’s a balance between the things that we want but protecting the environment, and I think we can get there.

ALLAN MACMASTER: I agree with the minister on that. What can the department do to be supportive of the mining industry, because I look at Northern Pulp - and I don’t want to get too much into Northern Pulp, as they certainly had a hand in their fate. However, when that legislation came before the House here and there was concern about, okay, five years, okay, let’s shut down Boat Harbour. It was five years to try to change things there so they could find a way to deal with their effluent or maybe change their processes altogether, so they didn’t have as much effluent. But at the end of the day, if you looked at it from the outside there’s a general feeling that the government did not really help the company along.

It is the company’s job to convince the government. I totally agree with that, but if investors want to take the chance, which is what it is, to place their bets in Canada or Nova Scotia, they need to know that the government is not going to bail on the company they’re investing in if there’s pressure, whether it’s a rail blockade or - and the pressure in the case of Boat Harbour was completely understandable and well-warranted. I supported the legislation; I voted for it.

I guess it concerns me that the environment here - and I speak of the investment environment - I’m worried that it’s not what it needs to be to have future investment and that it’s going to continue to hurt the province. The loss of Northern Pulp is going to affect our GDP this year. What can the department do?

I know you’ve done some things for the mining industry, like taking some of the fuel tax off. Those things are good, but I’m thinking more so about project approvals. If it’s just left to these companies to convince the public of whether it’s safe to proceed with a project, in most cases they can’t do it. We see that time and again. If the government’s just sort of going to throw up its hands and not help - and I will say help when it is safe for the environment - then how can we ever expect people to invest?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Thanks for that. This is actually a great conversation. I think it’s an important one that, for the mining sector and the history of mining, we don’t have enough of. I can appreciate that we’re on the same page in a lot of this because we come from similar communities with a long history of mining. In my case, mining a steel plant, but Donkin’s still there and there’s lots of social license for it in the community - it’s what we were built on.

There’s a number of things that we do as a department, and one key one, really, I’ll talk about at the end. We have our Mineral Incentive Program that we offer through the department. We provide a lot of geoscience information and promotion. As I said, our staff was just in Toronto promoting the province. We do a big event there to talk about opportunities here in Nova Scotia. We do a lot of consultation with the Mi’kmaq. We have a very strong relationship. Chief Paul is the lead there, so we regularly engage with him.

We also have what is called One Window, a process that brings multiple departments in on a project. So, it would be ourselves, the Department of Environment, the Office of Aboriginal Affairs, the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, the Department of Lands and Forestry. We have been really bringing all the departments together to ensure that as a development comes, that a company comes in, they have one window where they come in. They know that they can work through the various channels of who regulates what in regard to the rules of the land. Kudos to Don and his team for doing that because they were a big part of designing that.

We all want to ensure that, regardless of the project - whether it’s a mine or another operation - if somebody wants to invest in our province, we want to make sure that we can give them a pathway that is as easy as possible to navigate.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you, minister. I realize I can only press you so much on this, but what can the government be doing? When I look at the Northern Pulp situation, maybe there’s things going on behind closed doors, but when the concerns about milestones were raised when the legislation was about to be passed, the response was: We could have put requirements on it, but we didn’t want anything to get in the way of the ultimate goal of closing Boat Harbour.

I guess at the end of the day it’s up to the company to come up with a safe - and I don’t dispute that, but if companies are going to be active here, they need to know that the government will work with them to ensure they’re going to have environmentally safe operations. I think it must scare investors when they see some of the things I’ve described when I was asking the question.

I guess I’m trying to press you a little bit here. What is the government going to do? Are they going to stand with these companies when those companies have proven their operations are safe, and tell the public, you know what? We’ve looked at this, it’s safe, and here’s the proof, and we’re going to support this company and we’re going to make sure they’re going to have success here because we need these things. We might as well be producing them here. It’s good for the economy. I’ll let the minister answer.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I listed a number of things in my last answer. The decisions that we make are based on science. In the case of Atlantic Gold and their operation - which is deemed now one of the lowest-cost operations in the industry, which is a great selling point for the province - we want to ensure that we give them every piece of information we can so they can make an informed investment decision.

[9:00 p.m.]

I’ve talked about the Mineral Resources Act. We’re very up front about it. They’d have to put their reclamation plan in place and it has to be approved, et cetera, et cetera. If they go through the science - and that’s the ultimate decider of this. They have to go through their proper environmental assessments to get to that point. We have our expectations under the Mineral Resources Act. Environment and Lands and Forestry would play that part. In the event of access, TIR would play that role as well.

Ultimately, for me, I’m out there promoting the industry. That’s the biggest part for me, to tell that story of the thousands of Nova Scotians who work in the industry every day, who do it successfully and safely, and tell the story that - the operation that is Atlantic Gold had the opportunity to be there - keeping close relationships with these companies to ensure that they’re happy with why they’re here, that we’re doing whatever we can to support them, and also that they’re following the rules - the relationship has been very strong - and continue to attract that investment. The mining One Window is a big piece of that, where a company coming in has access to every department they need to be successful.

With any operation, whether it’s mining or any other project in the province, we need to do it in a sustainable way. They get that. They want to participate, and we want to make sure it’s as easy as possible for them. My job is to promote it, to support the regulations under the Mineral Resources Act, and to tell that story of mining in this province. We’re going to continue to do it.

ALLAN MACMASTER: That gives me some confidence that the Department of Energy and Mines is trying to facilitate mining with One Window. I think that’s important because if we just leave it to industry to fend for themselves out there - we’re living in a time when everybody’s against everything, and it seems to be let go. I think there’s great hypocrisy in it because we’re all using these things.

Somebody said to me not that long ago, if you’re hungry, you only have one problem. You’ve got to feed yourself. If you’re not hungry, well, you’ve got all kinds of problems you can put your attention to. I think in a case like this, people are often against a lot of these things and not connecting the dots to realize that those are the very things that are - and I wouldn’t be for them if they weren’t safe for the environment, I’ll say that. If these things weren’t happening, we wouldn’t have an economy. We wouldn’t have money to help people when they’re sick and so on and so on. I know we’re in agreement on that.

Just on Atlantic Gold, are they experiencing any challenges right now? I know there are some issues down that way. Does that concern you?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: They fully support the environmental process. They’re following it. They’re engaging with local government in the community. They’re going through that process, which is great. They’re respecting it. We look forward to the outcomes of that.

I’ve had the opportunity to engage with them multiple times. I’ve been down to their operation that is active right now. I believe the number is over 300 direct jobs on site. We’re in the tens of millions when you talk about the economic spinoff from the operation, and they have a significant interest in the province. It was really great.

When I was there, I met a young lady. She’s an engineer and she came here as an immigrant at the time and she built her life here. She’s now one of the main engineers down there on site and she lives in the city here. It was amazing to see how many employees they have down there, and the operation itself - the sheer size of it, how many suppliers are there. It’s been a great relationship with Atlantic Gold. Just to give you an idea, the mine operation is about $8 million a year. It’s significant.

I just got a note from the deputy. One of the staff who moved here has a doctor spouse. These are the stories that have come. These are the economic opportunities. It’s interesting - not to dive too much into the health care piece but if you’re looking at opportunities for spouses who are coming here, these are well-paying jobs in the fields of engineering, management, and resource development.

It’s a really great success story. It was a very good experience - the first time I’ve ever seen an operation of that size. They’re very conscious of the environment, as well, and what they need to do when that operation is complete. They’re going through the process. They respect it and they’re going through it.

ALLAN MACMASTER: I do have a couple more questions here, but I know a colleague of mine will be joining me soon because she has some questions.

I’m going to ask you about radon now. I think your department has maps of problem areas. I’ve learned that about 10 per cent of Nova Scotian homes have too much radon coming up through cracked foundations and some pumps; 16 per cent of lung cancers are caused by exposure to radon gas.

Are there efforts being made by your department, maybe in conjunction with other departments, to help address that? I think there are areas of the city here, like the Fall River area, I heard, and maybe even out toward Tantallon. (Interruption) That’s what I was thinking, thank you. I was pretty sure that’s where it was.

Can you give us an update on that?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We just had an announcement in recent months, actually. We have a partnership with the library network. The Chair was with me that day. It was a good day. We made an investment to buy more detectors through the libraries because there was a wait-list. Sometimes it was six months. It’s free. People can rent it out - I believe it’s free. It is. Okay, I’m just confirming that.

We did the announcement at the Halifax library that day. It was great. We’re partnering with the Lung Association on it as well. We made an investment because there is a demand for it. We’re very cognizant of it. Folks can rent it out. I think we bought 60 new ones. I can confirm that number for you - I shouldn’t throw out numbers - but I’m almost sure it was 60. There was a bit of a wait-list, so that’s why we made the investment. We encourage all Nova Scotians to use that program.

THE CHAIR: If I may add as well, apparently as an MLA you can have a couple in your office and lend them to constituents. The member for Waverley-Fall River-Beaver Bank does that. I have yet to do it. Sorry.

The honourable member for Inverness.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you, minister. It’s good to hear that that is getting some attention.

This might too big or too broad of a question, but in terms of royalties - I know we don’t get a substantial amount of royalties in the province, but I also know that the province is benefiting, maybe more so, by income tax or people working - the 5,500 people you mentioned working.

In terms of royalties, what has the history been for economic activity on a per cent basis? I know the offshore was - maybe I’ll just ask this general question. This is probably more interesting. There was great debate with Sable Offshore about royalties and how well the province fared on that. I know costs to finish up operations would claw back past royalties. I know we got hundreds of millions of dollars - billions of dollars - in royalties, but how did it all shake out?

Does the department feel we got a fair deal? I mean, we can go blame previous governments, but that’s not my intention in asking this question. My intention is just to ask, do you think we got a fair deal on the royalties if you look at it across other jurisdictions?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I believe so. In my experience, just based on what I’ve seen since I’ve been in the job, you’re talking $4 billion in payments. Overall, that doesn’t include goods and services and everything else that would be utilized. If you look at $4 billion, that has helped us do a lot of work. You would know - you’ve been around for a little while too, so you’ve seen the benefit yourself.

I think we did. I know we did. We see it every day in some of the infrastructure that multiple governments have put in over the years.

I see it in the conversations that I have with workers. A lot of them were from home too, so a lot of families were involved over the 20 years. I always say that the safety record and the environmental record are theirs because they were the ones who worked on that project for 20 years.

If you look at the internet, which is being invested in across the province, that is a direct result of offshore royalties. We made a decision as a government to make the biggest investment in rural internet in Canada by a mile. I remember that as the Minister of Municipal Affairs at the time, I did a tour of all of the municipalities, and I was thinking roads were going to be the biggest demand, but it was actually internet that was the biggest demand for a lot of communities.

Our offshore royalties will connect most of Nova Scotia with high-speed internet. I think we got a lot of support - not only as a government, but through continued scholarships and work that our youth are engaged in. It is because of that project.

Did you have a question on the mining side too? On the royalty piece? I have numbers if you wanted some numbers.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you, minister. If I could ask, were there ever any calculations on the offshore of what the per cent royalty worked out to relative to all of the value of product sold? Then maybe I’ll ask about mining next. If you’ve got some numbers on that, I’d be interested in that.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We don’t have them in front of us, but of course if you want to have a chat, happy to do it. Over the years there would have been some breakdowns in some of that information. I’m giving you the high-level numbers on some of the more significant investments that have been made, but if you’re looking for some percentages, I’m happy to try to get you the information you’re looking for.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Well, minister, I’m going to take you up on that. I’m going to ask your staff to make sure that - because sometimes we’re in Estimates and other departments and we’re sort of told, we’ll get you the information, and it doesn’t come.

I’d be very interested in that, just for my own interest. I have no intention of doing anything negative with it or anything like that, so I would appreciate that - and as well, on the mining side, some numbers of royalty benefits.

I hope that last comment is not taken as a negative. I just wanted to state that. Sometimes we ask for information and sometimes, passively, it doesn’t come, so I am interested. I’d like to see it.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I don’t need you to say an ill about me on page 4 of The Cape Breton Post. We’ll do our best. We don’t need a letter to the editor.

This is all. There are some numbers around both. You and I can sit down and have a chat, absolutely, and see what we can come up with.

THE CHAIR: Are you done with your questioning? Thank you.

The honourable member for Cumberland North.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: Thank you, Madam Chair. I’m sure my colleague for Inverness would never do that.

I just have a few topics that I want to discuss in regard to my constituency. Mining is part of our culture and heritage in Cumberland, with a history of coal mining. I just want to add that my grandfather was in both of the bumps in Springhill and was one of the last miners to be rescued in the Springhill bump. He lost a kidney and a leg, and Dr. Arnold Burden, or Bunden - he rescued my grandfather.

[9:15 p.m.]

Cumberland is well known for its long history in mining and we’re very proud of the Pugwash salt mine. I’ve had a tour underground a couple of times. They’ve told me that they think they have enough salt for another 50 years in production.

I’m wondering if the minister has had a tour of the salt mine - if you’ve had an opportunity to visit.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Unfortunately, not at this point. We’ve been trying. I’ve gotten to a few sites, but not to that one specifically. We are looking at doing a bit of a tour when time permits.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: Well, I officially invite you tonight. We’d love to have you.

One of the areas that we’ve talked a lot about since December 20^th is looking through innovative technologies for opportunities and ways we can use our wood fibre - in particular the woodchips and the low-grade pulp. One of the topics we’ve discussed is the production of natural gas from wood. We met with a professor and a couple of our foresters have met with someone within the Department of Lands and Forestry.

I’m just wondering if your department is, or would be, willing to work with us up in Cumberland on that initiative. We’ve met with Heritage Gas and they’re interested and a willing partner.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We’re always interested in particular energy projects if somebody has one coming forward. We’re always looking at different uses, whether it’s gas or biodiesel or whatever. If you have a proposal, please. We’re happy to engage and take a look at it, yes.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: At our next meeting, we will contact your department to be involved. Thank you for that.

Let’s talk for a minute about the natural gas that’s in the ground. I know my colleague has already asked some questions around that, but I’m wondering if the department is aware of any new technologies, any new and innovative ways to extract natural gas other than hydraulic fracturing, the one that we’re all familiar with.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We’re very interested in new technologies. I mentioned earlier that coalbed methane is something we look at. There have been some operations around the province that are looking at technologies around that - using nitrogen instead of water, looking at some of the older technologies and how we can use them in today’s principles.

We’re always engaged in these conversations. When I was in Calgary - we were out there for one of the natural gas projects - we had an opportunity to sit down and talk about some of the technologies they’re using within their communities. We’re always engaged in those conversations.

We’re also watching community conversations that are happening about it. I believe there was a public forum - it may have been in your community, actually - that was held in regard to what the community actually thought in regard to resource development onshore. We’re always watching.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: Yes, we had an actual formal debate in Pugwash and we had a moderator: Liz Roscoe, a retired judge. It was very professional. We had about 300-350 people in attendance and we had someone for and someone against - it was a great educational opportunity for the community - as well as the Cumberland Energy Authority, which is a corporation through the Municipality of Cumberland. They have added natural gas as one of the types of energy that they’re looking at exploring.

Of course, you need to have community support. People who have come to me are very interested. I think that there would be a lot of community support if it was proven to be safe. That’s why I was asking if there are any innovative new technologies that wouldn’t involve hydraulic fracturing.

I know you’ve seen the onshore atlas, which shows that there’s potentially between $20 billion and $60 billion worth of natural gas in the Cumberland Basin. I’m always looking for ways to grow our economy in Cumberland North and in the region.

I’m wondering if your department has had any conversations with New Brunswick and their Department of Natural Resources and Energy Development. I know they’re also looking at natural gas.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I’ll say that, kind of similar to what I just said, we’re always engaged. We’re talking to New Brunswick, we’ve talked to Alberta, we’re always looking at best practices, looking at jurisdictional reviews when it comes to what our neighbours are up to. It’s good practice.

I just heard of an organization called the Canadian Society for Unconventional Resources, who we work with as a department when we look at extracting resources onshore. Staff is engaged with companies that are looking at new technologies; that look at recycling the water after they use it, if they’re using water; how they can green their own operations, in regard to whether it’s the actual extraction of the resource or it’s the operation itself. We’re always in those conversations.

Really, for us - and you said the community wants more information. That’s really why the moratorium is in place. Nova Scotians felt they weren’t comfortable with the idea of it at the time. There’s still some concern out there, but it doesn’t stop us from doing the work to ensure that if new technology arises, it’s safe - in the shale rock perspective, yes, but there are other technologies when it comes to coalbed methane, and there are some potential opportunities on the horizon for that as well, that uses different technology altogether.

Always engaged and always open to feedback. If you have community members who want to provide input, we’re happy to take it.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: Well, expect to hear from some people in the next few weeks. I have several stakeholders who are very interested in pursuing that, and of course we all know - or many of us know - that natural gas has 50 per cent lower greenhouse gas emissions than coal.

On that note, looking at fossil fuels and looking toward climate change and reduction of greenhouse gas emissions, has your department done any work around carbon capture and looking at the technologies around that?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: There actually have been some tests done in carbon capture - one in Cape Breton in recent years. We look at that.

It goes back to the comments I made earlier. Natural gas is going to be a part of our energy mix for the foreseeable future. I’ve said it in speeches - the whole Sable project, our GHGs, and our area cleaner, even as we were involved with that project - I believe we have an opportunity as a province to use our resources and export our resources as a supply basin for the rest of the world. That’s why you see these projects and you see this interest from companies that are in the Strait, in Guysborough - two of those in particular that you hear more about.

We are looking at carbon capture. There has been some work done around it. Overall, natural gas heats our homes, heats our hospitals, heats our schools, and will play a part, I believe, in the transition away from coal. We all know that is eventually going to come, but natural gas is going to still be a part of our mix for the foreseeable future.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: Yes, and the concern is that we’ve got this nice infrastructure built in the province, but I think we’re importing all of our natural gas now, with the cost, with the tolls that the companies have to pay to import it. Knowing that we have our own resource here, if we’re able to extract it safely, just makes sense.

I have a colleague in Amherst who has some experience with carbon capture. We’ve had a lot of conversations around that and the potential that that could bring.

In looking at other technologies and energy, I know I’ve spoken with you and your department in the past about geothermal. I’m just going to ask about it again today. It is part of a potential energy mix for us in Cumberland and I would love to see it developed. My vision is that we would be able to build a whole infrastructure with greenhouses and it would contribute to our local food economy because of the ability to use that energy efficiently. I think it just makes sense.

I know your department has done some work with the Municipality of Cumberland. I’m just wondering if there’s any progress that could be shared on that.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I’ll try to give you the most technical answer I can. We are partnering with Agriculture on some geothermal projects across the province. I believe the one in your community deals with mine water, right? We’re engaged in that, but we’re also looking outside of mine water. We’re going a bit deeper. We’re going to go deeper just to see what other opportunities are there too.

I don’t have a big update for you today, but if you want to come in and we can have a chat about the project, no problem.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: Thank you, minister. Sort of in the same community is Surrette Battery. I believe at Law Amendments someone had presented from the solar industry, and they had talked about how solar and wind are very important for increasing our renewable energy mix. Of course, if we’re going to increase it by any significant amount, we have to have the ability to store the energy. I had asked him a question about that.

[9:30 p.m.]

I’m wondering, is the department involved at all in advancing technologies to improve energy storage? Is Surrette Battery involved in that at all?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We know that Surrette’s doing some work around it, but predominantly what they’re doing right now is international, some of the research - we’ve actually hired a battery research specialist in the department, through Dal. That person is one of our key people in regard to the storage piece.

You’re absolutely right that renewables will come on the system, but battery storage is a key ingredient to make sure that if we’re really going to - we’re going to continue to expand our programs, of course, so that Nova Scotians can access them, but battery storage is really the gamechanger for the entire mix.

The minute you can start storing power that is economical and that everyday Nova Scotians can utilize in their homes, that’s going to change everything, in my opinion. Then it becomes a matter of you can manage load. That’s when the electrification will take off, because then you have the ability to manage your load in your house at peak times. It allows the utility to distribute power better.

We’re engaged in that every day. This is a very significant piece of what I believe is the overall Integrated Resource Plan that NSP is working on right now. We don’t know what the final outcome of that is going to be, but they’re doing their own work. We’re in partnership with them and we’re increasing our own resources and our own expertise as a department by bringing in a specialist. It’s a great economic opportunity. If we can build these here and do the testing here, it’d be perfect.

To answer your question, we’re very engaged in battery storage and very familiar with what’s happening with them and what’s happening in your area.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: Okay, good. One more question. We have a very large employer - actually, our largest employer in Cumberland. It’s Emmerson Packaging, formerly known as PolyCello. We’ve had some great conversations recently around plastics and the future and garbage and disposal of plastics and what the real answers there are. We talk a lot about how you can create energy from garbage.

I’m just wondering if there’s any work being done on that in the department. I want you to know that the president of Emmerson Packaging is very, very motivated to work with our community to maybe do some pilot projects around plastics and energy disposal.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I don’t have a direct answer for that question. I can say that they may not remember me, but when I did the tour - we were there - they were really hospitable. I appreciate them bringing us in and doing the tour. It was great.

I know that there’s some work happening at the federal level when it comes to this. From our perspective in the department, you’re looking at a program that may fit. I’m not sure.

THE CHAIR: Order. The time has lapsed for the PC Party. We are moving on to the NDP for 34 minutes. I believe that’s what’s left.

We’re starting with the honourable member for Dartmouth North.

SUSAN LEBLANC: Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I clarify - we’re done tonight and we’re going to save time to read the resolution?

THE CHAIR: Yes, you’ll get only 30 minutes and I’ll save the four minutes. Unless, minister, would you like more than four minutes at the end?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: No, that’s fine.

SUSAN LEBLANC: Okay. I’m just going to set my timer.

Hello again. When last we met, my colleague for Halifax Needham asked if your department was considering a full independent public inquiry into the offshore, as called for by 11 coastal municipalities.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: The CNSOPB has 300 years of experience. As I’ve said previously, we have some of the strongest environmental and safety records in the world. There’s a very strict set of regulations you would have at any company before they could extract resources in the offshore. We have a workforce in Nova Scotia that consists of hundreds of families that have worked in the offshore with an impeccable safety and environmental record. At the same time, our fisheries thrived.

We take engagement very seriously with our communities, whether it’s in the offshore or in mining, but I will stand by the record of the independent regulator, which is independent of us, and the work that they do. I will again reiterate the very strong record of hundreds of Nova Scotian families who have worked in our offshore that has generated billions of dollars in revenue to support the services that Nova Scotians use every day.

SUSAN LEBLANC: Thank you. The government campaigned on changes to our electricity regime. One of the changes that they have enacted - that you have enacted - since then was the Renewable to Retail program. Are there currently any qualified entities selling power under this program?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: No.

SUSAN LEBLANC: All right, then. Has there been any uptake of the program?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Not at this time.

SUSAN LEBLANC: Ever?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: To date, no.

SUSAN LEBLANC: My next question is what evaluation has been done on the program and can it be shared? Has there been any evaluation done, given that there’s been no uptake?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: The program itself falls under the umbrella of the URB, so if there was ever going to be an assessment done of the program, it would be done through them.

SUSAN LEBLANC: Okay, great. I want to move on to solar for a second. The solar industry has recently expressed concern that Nova Scotia Power may be considering changes to the net metering program. Can you confirm if this is true?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: At this point, to my knowledge there has been no submission. Again, this would be a URB-led decision. At this point, no decision has been made to do that. I know that as a department, in regard to solar, we’ve been very supportive of it. We’ve been very supportive of the incentives that have been in place.

We’ve seen the success of the program for Nova Scotians and how many Nova Scotians are utilizing it. The workforce has grown substantially. We’re engaging the public now when it comes to virtual net metering and some of the other initiatives that may come in the future. So at this point, no.

SUSAN LEBLANC: As you know, in order to reach the ambitious climate goals that are needed to avert the most extreme effects of climate change, we need both a rapid shift to less carbon-intensive energy sources in combination with steep reduction in energy consumption. This means shifting energy sources while at the same time reducing residential and commercial fuel, electricity, and transportation.

What proportion of retrofits through Efficiency Nova Scotia are considered deep, and what targets does your department have for attaining deep reductions?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: There’s no direct definition which I could define as a deep retrofit. What I can say is that we’re spending millions of dollars on an array of efficiency programs that Nova Scotians can utilize. We’re making some significant investments.

I’ve already referenced the partnership with our Mi’kmaw communities and the 2,400 homes that we will be doing within that. We’re now into 11,500 public housing units that will see retrofits to support Nova Scotians. Efficiency Nova Scotia is spending up to $42 million on these programs as well. To hit those targets, which are 53 per cent below 2005 levels, these are some of the initiatives.

I don’t have a direct definition for deep retrofits, but we have expanded every program possible so that we can hit as many Nova Scotians as possible who can utilize the program.

SUSAN LEBLANC: I think the generally-accepted definition of deep is a reduction of 50 per cent or more in energy usage.

I’m wondering if the department has targets for the number of homes to be retrofitted by 2030 and what per cent of energy savings would be in those homes.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Essentially, we have some goals in some of the initiatives that we’ve announced. We’re starting with 900 homes in the first part of the new relationship we have with our Mi’kmaw communities. We’ve announced that we’re going to do work to 11,500 homes in public housing. On average, as I said earlier, we’re approximately doing 2,000 homes a year when it comes to efficiency.

[9:45 p.m.]

You look at some of the other programs that we have that Nova Scotians utilize when it comes to solar and the expansion and the excitement around that program - I guess the best way to answer the question is that we’re going to continue to expand these programs as much as we can to ensure that as many Nova Scotians as possible can utilize them. If you look at solar, if you look at the technology and the price points, it’s becoming very attractive very quickly. These programs are driving that.

I believe cost points are going to come down even more and as a department, we’ll make decisions into the future to make that faster. The ultimate goal is 53 per cent below 2005, so we’re going to do whatever we can as a department to make sure that we hit that as a province.

SUSAN LEBLANC: The thing is that when one avails oneself of the Efficiency Nova Scotia programs, for instance - I’ve talked a lot about this. I have done this. I am still in the middle of it right now, in a way, because I don’t have my rebates. You pay your $100 - this is for the HomeWarming - but you pay your $100, you get your assessment, and then you choose to do a bunch of different things or not. Depending on the homeowner, they will achieve a variety of levels of efficiency, and obviously without doing massive changes, some homes just can’t get more efficient than a certain R-value or whatever - the rating.

I’m wondering if there’s any thinking around that in the department, in terms of ensuring that everyone can have access, that everyone can achieve cost-effective efficiency, and that anyone in the province can get as efficient as possible.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: There are a couple of programs. I mentioned one. One of the biggest aspects for us was expanding beyond electrically-heated homes. A lot of those older homes traditionally were heated with other heat sources - oil, et cetera. That was one of the biggest steps where we saw a big spike in participation; it just gave more Nova Scotians the ability. I come from a community where it’s predominantly oil-heated homes. It’s just a traditional source. Now a lot of families are accessing that.

There’s another program called the PACE program where residents can put some of these expenses on their municipal tax bill. We’re actually kind of leading the country in that program as well. We’re looking at the feds’ budget, and it’s looking like they’re going to invest significantly in that program, so that’s one of the other avenues for that. Of course, under the HomeWarming program, energy audits are free, so Nova Scotians who need some support can access those programs too.

Again, it goes to the overall theme of some of the decisions. Why we’ve been making the decisions we’ve been making is to ensure that as many Nova Scotians as possible can be part of reducing our overall carbon footprint and access these programs.

SUSAN LEBLANC: I want to talk a little bit more about energy poverty. We talked earlier in the evening about how it was the government’s focus to look after the most vulnerable first, but we are second highest in the country for energy poverty. If we look at the measure of 6 per cent of your income being spent on energy, then by that measure, 37 per cent of Nova Scotians experience energy poverty.

Hearing about the retrofitting of public housing that you’re talking about, and the homes of Mi’kmaw people on reserves - besides those things, what is the strategy for overall reducing the rate of energy poverty in Nova Scotia, and what percentage are we aiming for?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: There are a number of things I’ve already mentioned that we’re engaged in, like the Mi’kmaw homes new agreement and the 11,500 public housing units in partnership with Housing Nova Scotia. We spend approximately $10 million on HomeWarming. These are pretty substantial pieces of it. There is the new Affordable Renters Program, where we’re trying to ensure that renters can receive some of the discounts in their apartments based on renewables and ensuring that they can access some of these programs to help reduce their costs. Those are some of the pillars of what we’ve been doing.

While doing that, we’ve been able to keep rates stable under inflation for an extended period of time, where before that we’ve seen great spikes in the price, which has shocked a lot of families and which created a lot of the concerns around energy poverty in the first place. So that’s $10 million for HomeWarming, some very great new initiatives, expanding the programs beyond electrically-heated homes.

We’re going to continue to do whatever we can to ensure that we’ve got the residential piece - a number of programs there. We’re venturing - well, not venturing, I should say, but we are now moving to renters across the province, making sure they can utilize some of the savings and also access renewable energy in the future. We’re going to continue to do it.

It’s a going concern for all of us, of course, and we’re going to do whatever we can to support our most vulnerable Nova Scotians when it comes to this.

SUSAN LEBLANC: Thank you. Speaking of that renters’ program, the Efficiency Nova Scotia Affordable Housing program ties investment in efficiency to guaranteed rental rates in order to ensure that energy savings and retrofits are passed on to the tenants - effectively rent control. The schedule attached to the program requires, for example, that a one-bedroom apartment in HRM whose rent includes heat and electricity charge a maximum rent of $867 for the first year of the program.

With an average one-bedroom in Halifax now at $959, what is your department doing to ensure that this program can be deployed to more units and that their rents are similarly protected?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: This program is very early in - we’re building the structure of it, we’re investing the money in it. Staff are going to do a bit of evaluation over this year and we’re open to suggestions to how we move forward. Essentially, this is a step for us where we want to ensure that if we can support renters in this, we want to do it, and we want to do it right.

There are certain criteria that are in place right now. Will they be the criteria moving forward? We’re going to do what’s in the best interest, we believe, of the folks who are living in those buildings to ensure that it’s as easy as possible for the landlords to access renewable energy and that at the same time those savings go back to the renters.

This gets into the other conversation around what virtual net metering is going to look like in the future. To me, this is the first step in that journey of getting to a point where we’re ensuring that savings are being passed on to everyone. We’ve really done a great job expanding our programs on the residential side. We have a lot of renters in communities across Nova Scotia, we need to support them, and this is one of our first steps into that realm. We’re investing the money.

We know the challenges. We hear them in the conversations that we have. We’re having the same challenges at home. Stay tuned.

We’re going to be looking for feedback on it to ensure that what we’re putting in place is actually working and ways that we can revise or expand the program into the future. It’s the first step. I think it’s a positive step in the first direction in the first step toward the energy-consumption savings of folks who don’t live in traditional homes.

SUSAN LEBLANC: Okay, great. If you want feedback, if you want some prototypes, if you want some places to experiment, there are an awful lot of rental buildings in Dartmouth North. Let’s talk.

Moving on from there, Efficiency Canada recommended that Nova Scotia implement a step code designed to bring new buildings to net-zero energy by 2030, which is modelled after B.C., and mandatory building and home energy disclosure, so that when you buy a house, you know what the energy efficiency level is.

Are there plans to adopt these recommendations, and if so, where are we in terms of adopting them?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We’re actually engaged with B.C. on their program. We have been for a period of time, looking at what a model may look like for us. One of the biggest pieces for us is ensuring that if we’re going to implement something like that, our contractor network is prepared for that. That’s part of the conversation, but we are following what is happening in B.C.

We’re not ready at this point to make any recommendation for a program. At this point we don’t manage the building code. That’s the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Anything that we would do would be in consultation with them. But we are engaged with B.C. and their program.

SUSAN LEBLANC: That segues nicely into my next question, which is about workforce. In the report card from Efficiency Canada, Nova Scotia got top scores for a trained energy workforce. This has to do with that. What are the barriers to maximizing the job potentials in efficiency and this type of work?

[10:00 p.m.]

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I don’t view it as a barrier. There are challenges with anything. I think what we’re experiencing is great because we’re experiencing growth. I think the biggest thing that we’ve done as a government in the last year through the department is expanding the programs and providing the incentives that we do. Private companies have been created because of it. They’re building their skillset. I believe that’s essentially why we’re now ranked as high as we are.

The 1,400 efficiency jobs across the province are significant. That’s representative in every community. I believe that’s because, similar to solar, they’ve seen an incentive that the government put forward to encourage usage and participation from Nova Scotians. As a result, we went from 13 to 60 companies in a year.

This is very similar with efficiency. By expanding the programs past electrically-heated homes, by moving into public housing with thousands of units and the Mi’kmaw partnership, these are all new jobs. These are all new entrepreneurs in the province. Once we saw this happening, we were like, we now have an industry. Now we need to give Nova Scotians the ability to train. That’s why we built the relationship with NSCC.

I’ve said this specifically about the relationship we have with our Mi’kmaw communities. What an amazing opportunity for these communities to build new businesses and to have citizens from their communities doing this work. We’re seeing that now. We’re seeing these companies.

A lot of this is a direct result of the decisions that we’ve been making as a government to move our budget to 70 per cent of climate change and GHG reduction - building efficiency programs, building solar, looking at wind, and capitalizing on the fact that price points are starting to come down and on the fact that we have a community college that wants to get into this realm and they want to work with government.

These are ultimately decisions that this government has been making, but also an amazing group of people - a small group of mighty people - who go out there every day and build these programs.

It’s been an honour to be the minister of this department. It’s been such an eyeopener for me to see the work that’s being done to support all of us. It’s a very exciting time because we are in transition, 100 per cent. We’re going to continue to push these programs, but there are no barriers. We’ve just got to keep expanding our programs.

THE CHAIR: That sounded like a final remark, but you still have four more minutes. He won’t take that long.

The honourable member for Dartmouth North.

SUSAN LEBLANC: In the Summer - I don’t know when it was - last year, I hosted a meeting in my office to do with Black youth unemployment issues. There was a program that Common Good Solutions did, an innovation lab on the issue of Black youth unemployment. One of the things we talked about was new training programs happening at NSCC for these types of new industries that we’re going to be seeing - that we see already and will be seeing more of.

Is there an opportunity to make sure that our African Nova Scotian population and Mi’kmaw population are not being left behind? Would you commit to working with NSCC to ensure numbers? Not just one in each class, but a significant effort to make sure that there are places reserved for Black and Indigenous trainees?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We’re actually doing that now through the solar programs. That’s one example where, whether it’s African Nova Scotian or Mi’kmaw communities, we’re doing training around solar installation in communities. Similar to what I said previously, we have a strong relationship with NSCC, and we’re always engaged with those conversations to ensure that as many Nova Scotians as possible have an opportunity to participate. So my answer to you is yes, absolutely. We will make sure of it.

THE CHAIR: I’ll give you one and a half minutes so that we can give him two minutes.

SUSAN LEBLANC: Great, I’ll take it.

Energy advisors in Nova Scotia frequently don’t make a living wage. I’m just going to stay on the employment topic. Can you tell us about the barriers to living-wage employment? Living wage in Halifax, at least, is defined as around $20-$21 an hour. Can you tell us the barriers to living-wage employment for energy advisors?

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We fund a few energy advisors through Housing Nova Scotia and through Efficiency Nova Scotia. I don’t have those wage numbers in front of me, but we can have a side conversation as I get more information. I don’t have the information in front of me to specifically answer that question.

THE CHAIR: That was perfect timing for reading the resolution and voting on Resolution E6.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Do I have time to say something quick?

THE CHAIR: You have just under two minutes.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I’m just going to quickly say thank you, as always, for the conversation. Whether it’s in here or in the Legislature, I know how passionate this topic is for all of you. I appreciate this opportunity.

As I said, it’s an honour to be the minister of this department. It was a bit of a transition as we brought Energy and Mines under one umbrella, but to all the staff who are here today with me and support us every day, I can’t thank them enough for the support that they provide to me and the work that they do for Nova Scotians on a daily basis. Thank you to you all, and to you gentlemen for being here with me for four hours.

THE CHAIR: Shall Resolution E6 stand?

Resolution E6 stands.

Thank you, everyone. Wonderful information. Thank you, minister. This was wonderful.

[The subcommittee adjourned at 10:08 p.m.]