HALIFAX, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 22, 2015

 

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY

 

5:54 P.M.

 

CHAIRMAN

Ms. Patricia Arab

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Order, please. If we could have all members take their seats.

 

            This is the Subcommittee of the Whole on Supply. Today we have before us the Department of Energy.

 

            Resolution E6 - Resolved that a sum not exceeding $30,160,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Energy, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: I'll ask the minister to introduce himself and the staff who are sitting with him, and to begin with any opening remarks.

 

            The honourable Minister of Energy.

 

            HON. MICHEL SAMSON: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. I am very pleased to speak to you today on behalf of the Department of Energy, Communications Nova Scotia, Nova Scotia Provincial Lotteries and Casino Corporation, and Acadian Affairs.

 

            I'm sure my colleague, the member for Pictou East is happy that the list stops there and does not go on.

 

            J'ai l'énorme privilège d'être le ministre de ces quatre ministères. Nous avons travaillé fort au cour de la dernière année pour atteindre nos objectifs et servir la Province de la Nouvelle-Écosse.

 

            With me today are staff members from each of these organizations. To my right, Murray Coolican, Deputy Minister of Energy; over to my far left, Chris Spencer, who is Executive Director of Business Development and Corporate Services; and to my immediate left, Bruce Cameron, Executive Director of Sustainable and Renewable Energy. Also here with us are Remi MacDonell, Manager of Financial Services; Tracey Taweel, Associate Deputy Minister of Communications Nova Scotia; and Bob MacKinnon, President and CEO of Nova Scotia Provincial Lotteries and Casino Corporation.

 

            Madam Chairman, I'll talk first about the Department of Energy. This department has been effective and innovative in creating and supporting energy-related opportunities over the past year. I've been impressed to see first-hand the quality and complexity of this department's work, as well as the speed at which it gets things done.

 

            This is no small feat, especially since Nova Scotia is becoming an energy transformation leader and is on the verge of some of the most significant energy opportunities in the province's history. For instance, the department has supported and sought out investment attraction efforts in offshore petroleum, tidal energy, and LNG, which is liquefied natural gas. These opportunities have the potential to change our economic landscape.

 

            We are also developing regulations and policies that will effectively and responsibly guide the direction of energy-related matters important to Nova Scotians. That includes electricity, energy efficiency, marine renewable energy, and hydraulic fracturing.

 

            I'm pleased with the accomplishments of this department over the year. There are many examples, and I'll outline a few. The Department of Energy introduced legislation that removed the efficiency tax from power bills. The change also improved electricity efficiency programs, ensuring that Efficiency Nova Scotia works even better for Nova Scotians.

 

            We have welcomed new global oil and gas majors to our province. These are world-class companies that believe in our offshore potential and want to invest millions of dollars here.

 

            We hosted 650 delegates from 250 countries at the 2015 International Conference for Ocean Energy here in Halifax. Madam Chairman, this was the first time this conference has been held in North America, which is a testament to our growing global reputation as a tidal energy centre of excellence.

 

            We're adding a fifth berth at FORCE to accommodate more tidal sector players interested in our resource - that being the Bay of Fundy - and we expect the first tidal array to be installed this Fall.

 

            The department welcomed 1,300 Nova Scotia Electricity System Review participants, the most comprehensive review of its kind in a decade. We'll use the information to introduce an electricity plan in the Fall sitting of the Legislature.

 

            We also reached our goal of 25 per cent renewables by 2015. We announced plans to pause and evaluate the COMFIT program to ensure it contributes to the province's future energy needs.

 

            We saw the start of British Petroleum's offshore program with the launch of the largest seismic research initiative in its history here in Nova Scotia. Shell Canada received its environmental assessment for its drilling program. We also signed a benefits agreement with Newfoundland and Labrador and NSP Maritime Link Incorporated, and saw the start of construction of the Maritime Link project. It will create hundreds of jobs for workers in both provinces.

 

            We helped improve people's ability to get to and from their jobs, activities, and amenities by supporting community-based sustainable transportation initiatives throughout the province.

 

            Madam Chairman, we also have four proposed liquefied natural gas projects in our province, along with a proposed natural gas storage initiative, all of which promise jobs, growth, and investment opportunities.

 

            Madam Chairman, we are the only province in Canada on course to meet its 2020 emission reduction targets. As you can see, we are focused, we are busy, and we are making progress.

 

            Comme vous le constatez, nous sommes déterminés, nous sommes occupés, et nous progressons.

 

            This year, our priorities continue to centre on responsible development of the province's energy sources to the maximum benefit of Nova Scotians, helping Nova Scotia businesses succeed in the fast-paced emerging energy field, and diversifying the province's energy mix.

 

            The Department of Energy's budget has been developed to support programs and initiatives designed to meet these priorities. Our estimated budget for 2015-16 is $30.16 million, with the following expenses for the department: administration, $2.133 million; sustainable and renewable energy, $1.917 million; business development and corporate services, $3.099 million; petroleum resources, $4.846 million; the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board, $3.965 million; and non-electric energy efficiency, sustainable transportation, and conservation grants, $14.2 million.

 

            Madam Chairman, I'd like to elaborate on some of our recent successes. This year, Nova Scotia emerged as a strong contender in the North American liquefied natural gas marketplace. Currently there are four LNG projects proposed in our province, which could pave the way to future gas supplies for Asian, European, and Caribbean markets.

 

            Our existing infrastructure in the Maritimes & Northeast Pipeline from Goldboro provides access through New England to gas supplies in the United States. A number of companies have expressed interest in exporting LNG from Nova Scotia. This includes Pieridae Energy and LNG Limited in Goldboro, H-Energy in Melford Point, and Bear Head LNG in Point Tupper, which is in Richmond County, in my home constituency. The total proposed investment of these three projects could very well be in excess of $15 billion.

 

Pieridae has signed an agreement with one of Europe's biggest power companies, Germany's E.ON, to export more than $35 billion worth of LNG over 20 years. That's more than half of its output. It has committed to making a final investment decision in 2015 and has said that it could open for business in 2020. It estimates hiring 3,500 people for construction and creating 200 permanent positions.

 

            In Goldboro, LNG, or Pieridae, has completed almost all the necessary permits already. The company could start operating in late 2018 or early 2019, and it will make its final investment decision by early 2016. It expects to hire 700 people for construction and up to 75 on a permanent basis.

 

            In addition to these projects, LNG Nova Scotia Inc. recently announced a proposal to move up to 250,000 tons of LNG to Caribbean markets per year. Nova Scotia LNG exports have an advantage in Europe because the shipping distance is so short.

 

            Government supports the development of these projects and is doing what it can to help companies export LNG to northwest Europe and other parts of the world.

 

            Le gouvernement appuie la réalisation de ces projets et fait ce qu'il peut pour faciliter l'exportation de gaz naturel liquéfié vers l'Europe du nord-ouest et ailleurs dans le monde.

 

            There's real potential for LNG to complement Nova Scotia's offshore energy development and to supply energy to these markets.

 

            We also recognize that any industry development in the province must meet our environmental standards. That's why Nova Scotia Environment recently sought expertise on best practices, including technologies, to help us minimize the carbon footprint of LNG facilities. The province supports the development of these projects and doing what it can to help them export LNG to northwest Europe and other parts of the world.

 

            When it comes to onshore oil and gas development, the province is now learning from other jurisdictions with experience in hydraulic fracturing to help inform our regulations and technical definitions of terms.

 

            Le gouvernement apprend des autres autorités législatives qui ont l'expérience dans la fracturation hydraulique pour la rédaction de ses règlements et une définition technique de l'expression. Nous travaillons actuellement à la rédaction de règlements qui seront peut-être plus tard ce printemps mises en place et qui seront suivies d'une période de consultation.

 

            The province is also moving forward with underground gas storage. We've seen how the price of natural gas can rise steeply when the weather gets cold. Nova Scotia's Alton Gas storage project is designed to provide a parking place for natural gas produced during the warmer months so it can be available when demand is the highest, typically during the winter months. It will help improve price stability for power customers and facilitate the transition away from coal.

 

            A recent regulatory filing to the Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board by Heritage Gas reported that potential savings to customers from natural gas storage average $17 million per year. Construction of this project is underway and is expected to cost $100 million, entirely financed by Alton Gas. When complete, it will store up to six billion cubic feet of natural gas, with potential expansion to 20 billion cubic feet.

 

            We've been working closely with the Mi'kmaq community on the details of the science review of the Alton project, and we're pleased to see this part of the process is progressing. An RFP for this review is now available on the KMKNO website. As consultation continues with the Mi'kmaq, other project approvals remain on hold.

 

            We will invest $150,000 in each of the next two years to develop an onshore petroleum atlas. This resource will help us and the private sector better understand Nova Scotia's onshore oil and gas resource potential. It is similar to the Play Fairway Analysis, only on a smaller scale.

 

For those of you who may not know what the Play Fairway Analysis is, it was an initiative started a number of years ago to map and provide seismic data on our offshore resources in Nova Scotia. It will provide seismic interpretations and other geological information to industry players looking for onshore oil and gas. The research will be the first modern-day petroleum resource assessment of our onshore.

 

            Last September, government introduced amendments to the Petroleum Resources Act that enacted a moratorium on high-volume hydraulic fracturing in shale formations. It was a decision that was supported by many Nova Scotians. It also respected a 2013 resolution passed by the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities to implement a province- wide moratorium on hydraulic fracturing. The decision was also supported by the Assembly of Nova Scotia Mi'kmaq Chiefs, who passed a resolution to oppose the use of hydraulic fracturing in our province. This legislation provided assurance to all Nova Scotians who said we're not yet ready for hydraulic fracturing. It will ensure that the industrial use of this technique in onshore shale formations will not be permitted without a public, open, and transparent debate in the Legislature.

 

            If we choose in the future to pursue high-volume hydraulic fracturing in shale formations, we will need to have a strong regulatory framework, a better understanding of our geology, the knowledge that Nova Scotians are ready to move forward, and a net benefit to developing shale resources.

 

            We also recognize that to fully understand this technique and the resource potential in the Nova Scotia context, there may be a need to allow testing and research.

 

            We're currently developing the regulations for later this Spring, which will be followed by consultations with industry and communities. So as you can see, we're doing the work necessary to better understand the potential of this industry.

 

            Offshore projects are a vital building block to achieve future prosperity and realize the offshore potential of this province. Since last year, despite a huge drop in oil prices, interest in exploring Nova Scotia's offshore potential continues to grow. That is important, since we believe that our oil and gas sector represents a significant opportunity for the future economic growth of our province. Working with the oil and gas industry to advance opportunities in our part of the world is something we are very much committed to.

 

            We want to continue to attract investment to explore our offshore potential of 120 trillion cubic feet of gas and eight billion barrels of oil. That is why last May we announced a $12 million investment in new geoscience data and marketing over four years. This is information that will, once again, be provided free to industry to encourage further exploration of our offshore. It will build on Nova Scotia's Play Fairway Analysis.

 

            We've contracted the assistance of Beicip-Franlab for this research. This is the same group that did the bulk of the work for the Play Fairway Analysis. It provides research in the southwest extension of Shelburne Basin, an area being considered by the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board for the next call for bids, which will happen at the end of this month.

 

            Since the Play Fairway Analysis data was made available, we have successfully attracted more major global energy leaders to our shore. For instance, Shell Canada announced that it partnered with ConocoPhillips and Suncor Energy to further its exploration program in Nova Scotia's offshore. ConocoPhillips is a leading global deep- water company and Suncor is one of Canada's largest energy companies with extensive Atlantic Canada offshore experience. We're delighted to have them join Shell Canada in this six-year exploration project.

 

            Shell Canada holds exploration rights on six offshore parcels, including four deepwater blocks and two in shallower water near Sable Island. The joint venture involves the deepwater sites. Shell Canada has a deepwater drill ship lined up to use off the coast of Nova Scotia later this year as part of its $1 billion exploratory program. The company has contracted the Stena IceMAX, a 228-metre vessel owned by Stena Drilling of Aberdeen, Scotland.

 

            BP's billion-dollar exploration project is also taking shape. BP was a successful bidder for four parcels covering almost 14,000 square kilometres about 300 kilometres off the Nova Scotia coast. Last year, the company completed a seismic survey and acquired data in an area covering 7,752 square kilometres.

 

            Woodside Petroleum of Australia and Hess Corporation of the United States have joined BP on four Nova Scotia offshore deepwater exploration blocks. The company will drill its first exploratory well in the second half of 2017. We're very pleased that Woodside will bring its 60 years of experience in the oil and gas industry, including 25 years of LNG export experience, to Nova Scotia.

 

            Building on this success, this summer the Department of Energy and the Department of Natural Resources Canada plan to undertake a joint offshore research initiative. Funding will come from the previously-approved provincial offshore growth strategy. The information being collected will be made available to industry at no cost and will help inform upcoming calls for bids.

 

            A Coast Guard research vessel, the Hudson, will collect the geoscience data via sediment coring in deepwater locations selected from an integration of geophysical data and satellite imagery. The work will get under way this summer and will take 14 days to complete. The data analysis and sample processing will occur in the months that follow.

 

            We've also made great progress in enhancing our strong offshore regulatory regime. Madam Chairman, we have one of the most stringent offshore safety and environmental regulatory regimes in the world. Our offshore industry continues to grow. We are preparing for success and working with our federal partners to ensure Nova Scotia's high standard is maintained.

 

            The province has passed legislation to strengthen offshore environmental liability protections and improve transparency and clarity of operations. These changes enhance environmental protection and focus on four key areas: prevention, response, accountability, and transparency in the management of offshore Nova Scotia.

 

            We have also added a new occupational health and safety section to the Act, clarifying roles and responsibilities of governments, regulators, employers, and employees. This complements work already under way in Nova Scotia to promote workplace safety in every industry across the province to ensure that workers, whether on land or at sea, return home safely at the end of each day. These amendments mirror changes to federal government legislation introduced last year and represent significant collaborative effort with our federal colleagues to strengthen the laws governing our offshore.

 

            The department is also an active member of the Frontier and Offshore Regulatory Renewal Initiative, or FORRI. The group is following up on the accord Act amendments by updating and modernizing existing regulations for offshore oil and gas activity. FORRI involves federal and provincial governments and offshore regulators working together. The work that is under way will improve the existing regulatory framework in the offshore to support competitiveness, continued growth, and contribution to the provincial economy, as well as maintaining the highest standards for safety, environmental protection, and management of oil and gas resources. As you can see, we are building on Nova Scotia's and Canada's strong record of safety and environmental protection.

 

            The development of tidal energy represents tremendous opportunity for our province. We have the highest tides in the world in the Bay of Fundy. These powerful tides can provide an estimated 2,500 megawatts of power - more than Nova Scotia's peak demand. Both the strength of this resource and its proximity to markets make Nova Scotia a very compelling location for tidal energy development. The challenge is to develop technology that can withstand the incredible force of the bay's currents. The sheer power of the Bay of Fundy and the significant expertise that we are building within the province provide us with a valuable opportunity to serve as one of the world's testing grounds for new tidal technologies and potentially as an exporter of both energy and expertise in the future. It is said that if you can succeed in the Bay of Fundy, you can succeed anywhere.

 

            As home to a growing ocean technology sector and some of the best marine researchers in the world, we have become a centre of excellence in the tidal industry. We have the Fundy Ocean Research Centre for Energy, a centre for large-scale tidal projects, situated next to those powerful tides. Technology developers, researchers, and experts on ocean technology are using the shared resources of FORCE to gain a unique understanding of the potential of in-stream tidal technology to deliver clean, renewable power.

 

            We have close to 300 offshore supply and service companies that have worked on projects like Sable and Deep Panuke and have skills that translate directly to tidal, as well as excellent universities that have produced scientists and innovators who have developed businesses focusing on opportunities in defence, environment, oil and gas, and now the tidal industry. They are some of the best in the world at what they do, and Nova Scotia provides them with an excellent opportunity at home and the chance to work in more challenging conditions than they've ever faced, preparing them to export their skills anywhere in the world.

 

            Ces entreprises sont scientifiques, sont innovateurs, sont parmi les meilleurs au monde dans leur domaine. La Nouvelle-Écosse les fournit d'excellentes possibilités ici, et même ainsi que la chance de travailler dans les conditions les plus stimulant qu'ils n'auront encore jamais rencontré, les préparant ainsi à exporter leurs compétences partout dans le monde.

 

            The development of FORCE and Nova Scotia's tidal sector requires both technical and policy innovation. The province is establishing the legislative environment to support their work and the efforts of their industry partners. We also continue to engage and inform communities on developments.

 

            The industry has reached several key milestones over the past year. FORCE installed four subsea electrical cables in the Minas Passage. This lays the groundwork for testing and demonstration and the eventual commercial development of up to 300 megawatts of tidal electricity in the province. FORCE is working to create a fifth berth so that Ireland-based renewable energy development company DP Energy can install a tidal stream demonstration power plant.

 

            OpenHydro is expected to put a turbine in the water and to connect to the grid by the Fall of this year. Upon successful completion, this project has the potential to be the world's first array of interconnected tidal turbines, providing energy to more than 1,000 customers in Nova Scotia.

 

            The ocean tech sector is a key part of the One Nova Scotia vision and strategy. It focuses on helping to transfer knowledge from areas like defence or oceanography to tidal resource assessment or undersea cable installation, for instance. It is clear that we are making great progress in this area and are being recognized globally for our leadership position. This was strongly evident when Nova Scotia welcomed the world at the 2014 International Conference on Ocean Energy in November. Over 700 delegates from 25 different countries attended.

 

            We continue to work with global partners to share ideas and resources. We have developed strong links and are working on opportunities with the United Kingdom, Singapore, South Korea, Germany, France, and the United States, just to name a few. In the interest of knowledge sharing and regulatory clarity, we released Statement of Best Practices for In-stream Tidal Energy Development & Operation during the International Conference on Ocean Energy.

 

            We also plan to introduce legislation that will give industry the regulatory clarity they need to establish a marine renewable-energy industry in Nova Scotia. It follows up on marine industry expert Dr. Robert Fournier's recommendation and commitments, made in the 2012 Marine Renewable-Electricity plan, to enact legislation that will ensure the development of a comprehensive regulatory plan.

 

            The legislation will ensure the safe and responsible development of the tidal energy sector and the sustainable use of our marine renewable-energy resources. It will also lay out a common approach to consultation, engagement, and regulatory activities, and provide clarity and confidence that industry has been looking for.

 

            This year we celebrated the 10^th Anniversary of the Pengrowth-Nova Scotia Energy Scholarship. Recipients of these scholarships represent the next generation of Nova Scotia's energy leaders. Scholarships valued at $10,000 are awarded annually to students completing Grade 12 at a Nova Scotia high school with the intent to pursue energy-related studies at university.

 

            The program also offers non-renewable $2,500 scholarships for first-year students accepted to eligible energy-related trades and technology programs at Nova Scotia Community College. The program will help us meet the demand for employees with the skills to work in energy-related fields. It has already helped 180 students complete their post-secondary education and move on to rewarding careers.

 

            We have provided approximately $3.1 million to support sustainable transportation initiatives throughout the province. These are community-based projects that are improving people's ability to get to and from their jobs, activities, and amenities.

 

            This year we are refreshing the sustainable transportation grant program. Consultations with stakeholders will begin later this month. We also look forward to co-hosting the 2015 Energy and Mines Ministers' meeting here in Halifax with Natural Resources Canada this summer. Approximately 300 government leaders and industry representatives will gather to discuss and share ideas on how we can create a stronger, more diverse energy and mines sector in Canada.

 

            Madam Chairman, I'll now talk about electricity. Nova Scotians want an electricity system that is stable, reliable, and very importantly, affordable. Government promised to stand up to Nova Scotia Power by breaking its monopoly and putting Nova Scotians first. I am pleased to report that we have kept our promise. In 2013 we introduced a renewable to retail initiative that allows for greater competition and greater choice for electricity ratepayers. It helps domestic, low-impact, renewable electricity producers in wind, solar, biomass, or tidal energy sell directly to customers. Nova Scotia Power worked with stakeholders on this project and retailers will be able to purchase renewable energy directly from producers in 2016.

 

            We also amended the Public Utilities Act to include a new energy efficiency and conservation section that removed the efficiency tax from power bills and required Nova Scotia Power to purchase cost-effective energy efficiency. It also gave the Utility and Review Board regulatory oversight of efficiency programs to determine affordability for ratepayers. Efficiency Nova Scotia has been granted a 10-year franchise to deliver efficiency programs for Nova Scotians. Nova Scotia Power shareholders will also contribute $37 million over the next 10 years to upgrade all low-income, electrically- heated homes in the province. This shareholder investment will be funded by Emera, not ratepayers, and will be made at no cost to electricity customers in our province.

 

            Government will also continue to invest in non-electric efficiency initiatives with a focus on low-income programs. The province will spend $12.17 million annually over four years to upgrade low-income homes heated by non-electric means, such as wood, propane, natural gas, and oil. This new model for energy efficiency will save energy, lower costs, and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. It will also ensure that investments are more competitive, affordable, and accountable.

 

            We recently announced that our Community Feed-In Tariff program, better known as COMFIT, achieved and will likely surpass its goal of supplying almost 100 megawatts of locally-produced energy to the grid. The department is currently evaluating the COMFIT program. We want to make sure it continues to be community-based and innovative and contributes to the province's future energy needs. New applications will not be processed pending the evaluation and the release of the electricity plan this Fall.

 

            The Department of Energy has been conducting a review of our electricity system for the past year. This is the first review of its kind in more than a decade - in fact, one of the most comprehensive ever undertaken in our province. The review includes findings from technical studies and feedback from public consultations and stakeholders' submissions. These materials will inform the electricity plan, which we intend to introduce in the Fall of this year. We recognize that a shift is taking place as our province moves toward more innovative, more diverse, and cleaner forms of energy.

 

            This review is about having a frank and open discussion so that we can collectively chart a course of how we get there. In Fall 2014, more than 1,300 members of the public and stakeholders participated in the electricity system review through telephone surveys, face-to-face meetings, webcasts, and written submissions.

 

            We also heard from many key stakeholders through ongoing discussion and consultation. The review studied all aspects of the electricity system, including emerging technologies, market trends and supply and demand, and trends in the governance and structure of our electricity marketplace.

 

            In the first phase of the review we contracted experts to lead technical studies and we shared the studies' findings with Nova Scotians. In the second phase we consulted with members of the public and stakeholders. The studies, conducted by ICF International last summer, provided a base on which to understand the context of our province's current system and to examine our future needs.

 

            The studies told us the following: we will need between eight and 13 gigawatt hours of electricity each year to meet our predicted demand over the next 25 years. An expected small, but steady, increase in demand, about 1.2 per cent per year, can likely be mitigated through demand side management and efficiency. We should be able to produce enough energy from current and committed projects to meet our needs and environmental targets for the next 10 to 15 years.

 

            We need to focus our planning towards 2030, when a number of factors will combine to open up opportunities for new energy projects. We likely don't have a large enough market for full-scale market liberalization, but there are opportunities to increase competition, consumer choice, and transparency, and better align the interests of utility shareholders and ratepayers.

 

            We used the results of the studies to inform our public and stakeholder consultations. In February we released a draft report analyzing the feedback we received from the consultations - Nova Scotians told us they support long-term rate stabilization and predictable electricity rates; more accountability and transparency in setting rates; a focus on the environment and support for renewable energy resources if it doesn't significantly impact rates; increasing our regional electricity market; investing in innovative ideas and technology though they do not necessarily agree on how to pay for it; and a range of options in how the electricity market should be governed. Stakeholders also contributed significantly to the review.

 

            All feedback will be examined for our electricity plan. We'll table a final report of the public and stakeholder consultations in the Legislature this Spring. In the Fall we'll introduce an electricity plan that will outline the path forward for the future of our system.

 

            I am also pleased to report that we have all final contracts and approvals completed for the Maritime Link. The Link will help us secure our renewable energy targets for 2020. We will be in an electricity loop, improving reliability and giving us better access to North American markets, including Newfoundland and Labrador, New Brunswick, and Quebec.

 

            Madam Chairman, I'd now like to talk about Communications Nova Scotia. The agency's main job is to help Nova Scotians understand what their government is doing and why. I want to thank the professionals at Communications Nova Scotia who work hard, day in and day out, and often on weekends and late into the evenings to fulfill this mandate. At budget time they play a key role in helping Nova Scotians understand the facts about the steep hill we must climb to get on a solid financial footing.

 

            As a government, we are reining in spending. We are making changes to protect core government services like health care, education, and support for seniors and low-income Nova Scotians. Communications Nova Scotia is doing more than helping spread this message; the agency is cutting staff numbers, and its budget. The number of full-time equivalent positions in Communications Nova Scotia has dropped from 97.8 in the 2014-15 estimate to 90.5 this year. Madam Chairman, this is a 7 per cent reduction in staff for one year and a 16 per cent decrease since 2012-13.

 

            This year I'm pleased to say Communications Nova Scotia staff numbers are the lowest they have been in a decade. Some of these people are familiar faces in our Legislature. The media relations team works hard every day to get media the information they need. The Communications Nova Scotia staff do other important work behind the scenes. Graphic designers, editors, and communications planning and production staff, play critical roles in preparing the budget documents that we are debating tonight.

 

            Communicating to Nova Scotians through the web and social media represents more and more of the work that Communications Nova Scotia does. As just one example, we are all grateful for the tremendous work by the plow drivers and others who help keep us safe this winter. I know that Communications Nova Scotia staff were busy behind the scenes on many stormy days, weekends, and evenings, getting critical information out to Nova Scotians.

 

            In a nutshell, Communications Nova Scotia staff literally have their hands on everything that Nova Scotians see and hear - from reports to photos, videos and web content to news releases to marketing. In all of these areas, Communications Nova Scotia is spending less. For fiscal year 2015-16, Communications Nova Scotia will reduce its budget by $674,000. That's a big cut for a small agency; it represents a 9 per cent reduction. The biggest cut is coming in advertising and marketing - a 14 per cent reduction in the operating budget this year.

 

            It's not just about what you spend - it's also about what you do and how you're doing it. Communications Nova Scotia is more accountable than ever before. Before we came to government, the agency had no guiding legislation and it was impossible to determine how much government spent on advertising. Our government passed legislation, along with new policy and guidelines, to change things. Transparency and accountability are priorities for this government. This legislation holds us accountable for how and why we use taxpayers' money to advertise. I look forward to tabling the first annual report on advertising this Spring.

 

            Part of the mandate of Communications Nova Scotia is to provide communications support to government departments. I can tell you that Communications Nova Scotia staff do a great job of that.

 

            We also need to be more focused on communicating with Nova Scotians directly. This year that will continue to be our priority. The flow of information today is instantaneous; Nova Scotians are online and they expect their government to be there with them. In that vein, Communications Nova Scotia is doing more and more on social media and training staff on online tools that will mean more and better engagement with Nova Scotians.

 

            As just one example, Communications Nova Scotia supported an extensive consultation process leading up to the Education Action Plan. Instead of relying on expensive traditional advertising, social media and stakeholder communications were the main tools. What were the results? Almost 19,000 students, family members, teachers, and community leaders shared their views, helping to shape the future of education for our children. This is the highest level of public engagement in the province's education system in a generation. It is also a great example of a small investment going a long way.

 

            Communications Nova Scotia is also improving research and evaluation efforts around communications and marketing. This is in line with recommendations from the Auditor General. Working with client departments, Communications Nova Scotia conducts research to ensure communications and marketing campaigns are evidence- based, strategic, and effective. Insights from research are used to identify key audiences, assess their level of understanding and awareness, and refine key messages so that Nova Scotians can better access the programs and services they need. Communications Nova Scotia then evaluates the effectiveness of communications efforts to ensure the message has reached its target audience and uses that learning in the development of future initiatives.

 

            Another example: results tell us that we need to do more to promote programs that help students and young people. Last summer we ran a campaign, supported from student groups, on social media that increased likes on Facebook by 50 per cent. Some campaign ads had 10 times the average click rate, and Twitter followers rose more rapidly during the campaign than ever before.

 

            We also ran a social media campaign for the new Graduate to Opportunity program. We developed an online letter for students to use to promote the program with employers and their communities. Our first phase of the campaign targeted students so they would know about the program. Facebook and Twitter paid posts resulted in more than 600,000 impressions. The website click-through rate was almost 2 per cent, about 20 times the industry standard, and visitors to the site spent, on average, 3.5 minutes there, about four times the industry average.

 

            We have more work to do so students take advantage of every possible support available to them. Taking that information to students through social media is the right way to go. Communications Nova Scotia is also leading efforts to track web traffic and conduct web analysis on behalf of government, using Google analytics. Communications Nova Scotia will continue to provide training to government Communications staff and webmasters on how to best use this tool to measure government's effectiveness online.

 

            Madam Chairman, through solid legislation and policy, sound fiscal management, fair procurement and research and evaluation, the employees at Communications Nova Scotia have been delivering communications services in a fiscally prudent manner and will continue to do so in fiscal year 2015-16.

 

            Madam Chairman, government programs and services are only successful if they are accessible to the people they are designed to serve and if people know about them. Communications Nova Scotia takes a multi-media approach to getting the right message in the right way to the right people. The agency will continue to help departments and partners adapt to the challenges and opportunities facing our province and will look for new and exciting ways to engage with Nova Scotians.

 

            For Acadian Affairs, il y a en Nouvelle-Écosse une communauté acadienne et francophone dynamique. Je suis fier d'être le premier ministre des Affaires acadiennes à être originaire de Cape Breton. C'est avec plaisir que je compte continuer à travailler étroitement avec les ministères des communautés, de la culture, et du patrimoine pour aider le gouvernement à offrir des services en français et à mieux servir la communauté acadienne.

 

            Les Affaires acadiennes sont le bureau centrale du soutiens du gouvernement en matière de service en français. Leurs travails consistent, entre autres, à informer le gouvernement des besoins de la communauté. Les Affaires acadiennes veillent à ce que le gouvernement ait accès aux services de traduction, au cours de français, à des fonds, à des conseils sur les politiques et les communications, et au programme d'identification visuel Bonjour. Elles travaillent avec les ministères et les agences du gouvernement ainsi qu'avec des nombreux partenaires pour l'élaboration, la prestation, et la promotion des services en français pour les Néo-Écossais. Elles ont aussi l'importante tache d'établir des partenariats avec des organismes acadiens et francophones à l'échelle provinciale, nationale, et internationale.

 

            Les Affaires acadiennes appuient la communauté en aidant les organisations à obtenir des fonds pour des projets culturels et d'autres activités de développement communautaire qui comportent des échanges ou un collaboration avec des organismes communautaires du Québec. La nouvelle entent quinquennale de la Nouvelle-Écosse avec le gouvernement du Canada entre en vigueur en 2013 allouant 1,3 milliards de dollars par année à l'offre de service et des programmes en français. L'entente constitue un incroyable partenariat avec le ministère du Patrimoine canadien qu'on remercie pour l'appui constant qu'il nous accorde. Les fonds servent à appuyer l'important travail de prestation, de service de première ligne bilingue du gouvernement, notamment  avoir des agents de service à la clientèle et des webmestres, des documents imprimés en français, et des services dans les centres de ressources familiales et des sites de crack dans les collectivités acadiennes et francophones.

 

            Les fonds servent aussi à offrir des cours de français aux employés du gouvernement pour mieux servir les Acadiens et les Francophones dans leur langue maternelle. La plupart des cours sont donnés par l'Université Sainte-Anne. Non seulement est l'université une institution post-secondaire d'excellente réputation, mais elle offre aussi l'un des meilleurs programmes d'immersion au Canada. Cette année, nous célébrons le 125^e anniversaire de l'Université Sainte-Anne et le 60^e anniversaire du Festival acadien de Clare, le plus vieux festival acadien au monde.

 

            Comme dans beaucoup de localités rurales en Nouvelle-Écosse, l'exode de la population pose des défis à nos collectivités acadiennes. Une étude récente du Commissaire aux langues officielles du Nouveau-Brunswick sur les avantages économiques et le potentiel de bilinguisme révèle que le Nouveau-Brunswick à des taux de commerce beaucoup plus élevés avec le Québec et les pays francophones. Je crois que la Nouvelle-Écosse a le potentiel d'accroître les occasions de travailler avec des provinces et des états francophones.

 

            Environs cent mille Néo-Écossais ont indiqué qu'ils ont une connaissance du français et de l'anglais. Voilà une ressource que nous pouvons utiliser à notre avantage. Je continue d'avoir des rencontres avec l'ambassadeur de France au Canada au sujet de l'échange et des possibilités de coopération dans l'avenir. Tous les ans, en ma qualité de ministre des Affaires acadiennes, je rencontre mes collègues fédéraux, des provinces et des territoires a la conférence ministérielle sur la francophonie canadienne où d'importantes questions sont abordées, telles que l'immigration francophone, le développement économique dans les collectivités acadiennes et francophones, et le rôle des médias francophones dans le développement communautaire.

 

            Je suis fier de représenter la communauté acadienne et francophone de la Nouvelle-Écosse sur la scène internationale au sein de l'Organisation internationale de la francophonie. Les Affaires acadiennes continueront de favoriser des partenariats de la francophonie pour que nous puissions attirer plus d'immigrants, d'entrepreneurs, et d'étudiants francophones dans la province. Les Affaires acadiennes continuent d'appuyer les relations entre les organismes acadiens de la Nouvelle-Écosse et organismes cajun en Louisiane pour continuer à collaborer dans les secteurs de la culture, de l'éducation, du tourisme, et des affaires.

 

            La communauté acadienne et francophone est une forte composante de l'identité culturelle de notre province. Les médias communautaires francophones sont des monteurs importants de la culture acadienne et francophone dans la province. Il est important que la communauté acadienne et francophone ait accès à la radiodiffusion en français. La communauté compte quatre stations radiophoniques communautaires et l'édition hebdomadaire, Le Courrier de la Nouvelle-Écosse, pour se tenir au courant des questions qui lui tiennent à coeur. Les médias francophones jouent un rôle important de la reconnaissance de la contribution de la communauté acadienne et francophone. Le gouvernement a annoncé récemment une aide financière pour améliorer ces médias en Nouvelle-Écosse. Il a investi 57 635$ pour que le conseil du développement économique de la Nouvelle-Écosse travaille avec les médias francophones communautaires afin qu'ils renforcent leurs opérations.

 

Les Affaires acadiennes continueront ce travail avec Le Conseil de développement économique de la Nouvelle-Écosse. Je suis content de savoir que le gouvernement travaillera avec les médias francophones communautaires pour les aider à élaborer un plan pour leur succès à long terme. De plus, en numérisant d'anciens numéros de Courrier de la Nouvelle-Écosse dans la publication à commencer en 1937, les archives de la Nouvelle-Écosse donneront aux générations futures accès aux récits qui ont bâti le patrimoine acadien et francophone dans la Nouvelle-Écosse. Je tiens à remercier le conseil du développement économique de la Nouvelle-Écosse, l'Association des radios communautaires de l'Atlantique, et le Courrier de la Nouvelle-Écosse et elles souhaiter beaucoup de succès.

 

            Madam Chairman, I am also Minister responsible for Part I of the Gaming Control Act. My job is to ensure the regulated gaming industry is as socially responsible as possible while generating reasonable profits for the provincial government to help fund important programs and services for Nova Scotians.

 

            The strategy set out through the Nova Scotia Provincial Lotteries and Casino Corporation, the Crown Corporation that oversees the conduct and management of the industry, sets out a balanced and measured approach to ensure that programs and services valued by Nova Scotians continue to benefit from gaming revenues.

 

            Our commitment to providing leading responsible gambling programs and tools continues by making information readily available to players, supporting efforts to reduce the harmful impacts of problem gambling, and by raising public awareness of responsible and problem gambling. We are also reducing reliance on VLT revenue. Government has continued the direction to reduce the number of VLTs through attrition. To date the number of VLT terminals removed by attrition is 123. For generations Nova Scotians have supported worthy causes through charitable gaming activities, and we continue to support community and charitable events throughout the province.

 

            Madam Chairman, the Support for Sport Program, a designated ticket lottery program, fosters sport in the province. Since its inception the program has contributed over $24 million to support amateur athletes, coaches, and community support organizations. The program has far-reaching impacts with over 125,000 Nova Scotians benefiting each year from Support for Sport in one manner or another.

 

            Another designated lottery program is Support for Culture, which supports arts, culture, and heritage in communities across Nova Scotia. This program provides $2 million annually to support this sector. The gaming industry is also supporting local community fundraisers through charitable casino nights programs across Nova Scotia.

 

            Madam Chairman, our commitment will remain the same: to ensure a responsible, accountable, and sustainable approach to gaming in the province that benefits Nova Scotians. So as you can see, all these departments that I have a responsibility for are focused, they are busy, and they are making progress. They have demonstrated a willingness to make decisions that will help the province achieve long-term positive changes.

 

            I want to thank you, Madam Chairman, and my colleagues. With that, I'd be more than happy to take your questions.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Minister Samson, for those in-depth opening remarks. We will begin the questioning with the Progressive Conservative caucus.

 

The honourable member for Pictou East.

 

            MR. TIM HOUSTON: Thank you, Madam Chairman - a good thing that we got rid of some of those portfolios from the minister's responsibilities.

 

            My first question, I will start with the Department of Energy. I'm looking specifically at the Estimates and Supplementary Detail book, Page 2.2. In there it talks about the general revenue fund for the province. Under the Department of Energy it has, Royalties - Petroleum, the estimate for the coming year is $19,405,000; that's down from a forecast last year of $43 million. I think I know some of the reasons why that's down - I think they've been pretty well publicized - but I'd like to ask the minister, as he looks out into the future in forecasting for the department, what type of number would he like to see there? If he expects $19 million in the coming year with all the initiatives that are happening and stuff, what might that number be four years from now?

 

            MR. SAMSON: That's part of the discussion that goes on each year within the department in trying to establish what the appropriate number to use is for expected royalties. A couple of points to help the member in how those numbers are achieved - last year it was anticipated that the price of natural gas was going to be quite high; this year the predictions are that they will not maintain that same level, so that was part of the decision to reduce the projected royalties for this year. The other one, which I know there has been a lot of media attention given to it, is the reduced production that is taking place in our offshore. So those are two of the main reasons that the calculation provided this year in our budget shows what we expect the royalties to be.

 

            On your question of what number would I like to see - it's difficult to answer. Obviously we'd love to see that number higher, but at the end of the day these are factors that are beyond the government's control as to what the price of gas will be on the world market and what the production levels are going to be in our offshore.

 

            As I mentioned in my comments, we're certainly excited by the potential drilling that is going to take place in our offshore starting this year, and another major project that's there and as I mentioned as well, the Offshore Petroleum Board will be issuing a call for bids for more parcels of our offshore within the next little while. We are hopeful that we will see some success from that as well.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: From the potential offshore with the new exciting projects that have been talked about, would the royalties from those be - are those royalties 10 years away, or what's kind of the rule of thumb you use in the department?

 

            MR. SAMSON: For the deepwater parcels that we have in our offshore, the royalties anticipated from those could be up to 10 years before those are achieved. It is our hope with the level of interest that is in Nova Scotia now with the liquefied natural gas projects that that may incite some of the offshore developers to look at some of our shallower waters that we have and, if that's the case, those would be online sooner, from a royalty perspective, than 10 years.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: I want to talk a little bit about the onshore atlas that you referenced - what year did the government first begin that onshore atlas project?

 

            MR. SAMSON: There has been some work that has been done by the department over the last few years but, as far as a specific atlas, that work started last year and is continuing again this year.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: I did hear in your opening comments that it was budgeted or estimated about $150,000 per year. Is that kind of the long term - is this like a five-year thing that we just keep picking away at?

 

            MR. SAMSON: The $150,000 will represent monies that will be spent this year and next year in putting together that atlas. I know we had a bit of fun with this whole subject in Question Period not long ago, but the whole idea here is that up until this point when the question becomes is there even a viable and sustainable industry here for fracturing, we don't know because there hasn't been that work done to really identify the seismic work that's onshore to identify exactly what hydrocarbons are there in the province - more importantly, is there a commercial quantity of those types of hydrocarbons that even exist for us to be able to look at?

 

As I mentioned in my comments, when one looks at the success that the work that we did for our offshore has had, we certainly hope that by putting together this information on the onshore atlas, it'll make it that much easier for any companies that do have an interest to have that information at hand, rather than be left on their own, to their own devices, to try to figure out where exactly there may be some opportunities.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: If you could refresh my memory on the offshore atlas project. That was a pretty successful project, just in terms of how much it costs versus - there was some pretty big revenue generated from that project pretty early on. I don't know if you have those numbers at hand, the cost versus the immediate benefit, but just to give me some context there.

 

            MR. SAMSON: I think you may have heard the Premier make reference to this a number of times. The actual Play Fairway Analysis was actually started under the Rodney MacDonald Government in 2008-09, and in many ways it came out of the Crown share settlement that had taken place with the federal government.

 

            To date, there has been approximately $12 million spent on the Play Fairway Analysis. There has been additional geoscience and marketing work. The total cost has been approximately $22 million to $23 million and the results of that work to date has brought a potential investment of $2 billion from Shell and BP on the work that they intend to undertake.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: I didn't quite catch which government it was that started that project. (Laughter) In terms of the onshore atlas, it's safe to say that's a project that has just started now so we're only $150,000 into that - is that where we're at there? It's a much smaller project, I guess - is it being done by internal staff?

 

            MR. SAMSON: It is a mix of both internal staff, but we have also used external resources as well to assist with it. To date, approximately $60,000 has been spent on putting together the atlas.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: When can we expect to start to see versions of the atlas released - is that out at the end of year two of your process?

 

            MR. SAMSON: Next year we expect that there will be something more official that will be provided. Again, to reiterate, the whole approach here is that we're undertaking this work. We are having to make an expenditure to do that but it will be shared for free to the industry and to those interested parties that will have access to this information, the whole idea being that it reduces their costs to have to go on their own and try to be able to access this type of information and will, hopefully, provide them with the information they need to make decisions on potential investments.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: So is it kind of the plan - I don't want to read too much into what I heard in the opening comments but if this is, let's call it a two-year project before version one gets out, is it the plan then that that would actually be maybe in two years from now, that we won't see that ban on fracking anymore - are you trying to marry-up the creation of an atlas to see what resource is there with the development of the regulations for the industry?

 

            MR. SAMSON: I don't think one would want to draw that specific link that the time frames are married together. It was the decision of government to proceed with putting together this atlas information. At the same time keep in mind that there are other forms of onshore exploration that do not involve fracturing, more traditional methods. It's possible that once the atlas is put together, they may attract investment from that regard, but as you pointed out, we continue to work on definition of high-volume fracking and the regulations that will accompany it. So that work continues. But rather than wait, this is ongoing work on the atlas and, again, to your initial question I wouldn't say that the two marry each other, from a time-wise.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: He giveth and he taketh away. My French isn't quite up to scratch, but I think in English you said you were working on regulations for fracking and then I thought you said, in French, that you were conducting some consultations around those regulations. Maybe if you can just clarify - what is the process there? Again I guess my confusion is if it's banned, why are we investing resources in developing regulations and consultations?

 

            MR. SAMSON: Basically legislation that was passed in the House required regulations to accompany the legislation, so that is being worked on. As well, our department has reached out to other jurisdictions that do allow fracking to take place to get a better sense of what definitions they use and which regulations are in place. Again, keep in mind that there are other forms of onshore exploration that could potentially take place in our province that don't necessarily involve high-volume fracturing.

 

            What we have committed to - and I'm impressed with your knowledge of French, you understood very clearly what I said in that once we've got the definition nailed down and the regulations in place, we will take that to Nova Scotians and seek their feedback before making final decisions. So the whole idea here is that Nova Scotians can have a level of comfort in what is the proper definition and what are the proper regulations. We'll seek their feedback and then we'll come forward with the final decisions.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: I guess no discussion of fracking would be complete without asking, what is the definition of high-volume hydraulic fracturing? It's something we've talked quite a bit about in the House and it strikes me as odd as that's what has been banned and we've never really been able to get a good definition of what it actually means. It strikes me a bit as the cart before the horse. I'd appreciate your comments on that.

 

            MR. SAMSON: I guess my response would be that we will have that definition to be put for public consultation very shortly, and we'll certainly share that with you as soon as it's ready to be released.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Thank you, and I appreciate that you weren't the minister at the time, but it's a very specific definition and I just wonder what the intent of the department was with using such a very specific definition even though there was real understanding, maybe, of what it meant. Can you shed any light for us on why the wording was so specific?

 

            MR. SAMSON: I guess my response to that would be that there's no question that high-volume fracking is what has drawn the public's attention, not only in Nova Scotia but in other jurisdictions. We felt it was important, as a government and as a department, to get a very specific definition of that activity because, as I've mentioned before, there are other forms of onshore activity which are less controversial and which have historically taken place not only in our province but in other jurisdictions and we didn't want to see those activities being stopped.

 

            To answer your question, that is why we've tried to restrict it to the high-volume fracking, which is clearly the one activity and the type of activity that has drawn the most attention. Hopefully that gives you a better sense of why it has been so focused on that, because we don't want to have a negative impact on other potential, more traditional forms of the onshore development that could take place in our province.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: I appreciate that we wouldn't want to have that negative impact, but it has always been a concern of mine that we have had that negative impact. In the absence of the ability to define what exactly high volume means, it has kind of put people who might consider themselves not high volume to say, well gee, I don't want to get swept up in this definition whenever they come.

 

            I think there has been - I don't know if it has translated through in the royalty numbers - maybe the minister can comment on that - but it has definitely created a perception. If we don't know what it is, I'm not going to try because I might get caught up in there. Do you have any sense as to whether there is any validity to my concern there, that people are just nervous of the jurisdiction because of the inability to define succinctly what high volume is?

 

            MR. SAMSON: I guess it's difficult to answer your question because it's trying to figure out what's in the minds of potential developers and whether it has had an impact on them.

 

            What I can tell you is that since the moratorium was put in place, we have not been approached by any companies that were seeking permits to do onshore development. I guess Nova Scotia is seen by the industry as more of a frontier area, that there has been little work done here. I believe in the last five year there has been approximately four wells that have been drilled in our province, and two or three of these were looking for oil

 

            I should also point out to you and I believe the honourable member would be aware of Corridor Resources which was based here in Nova Scotia. They actually had no activity here in Nova Scotia, while based here their activity was in other jurisdictions and not in our province.

 

            It has been a challenging debate for everyone because we were debating the potential of a resource and an industry here that up to this point no one really knows if that's even a viable option of if there's a viable resource that exists here onshore that would be done through high-volume fracking.

 

            To answer your question, we're not aware; no companies have approached us saying I want to undertake this activity - can I or can't I? - as a result of the moratorium that has been put in place.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Okay, so in any sense - I know department staff have been visiting other jurisdictions, Alberta, British Columbia, Pennsylvania and some of these ones, trying to gather information - any sense as to when we'd have a definition and maybe some of the regulations that fall out around this?

 

            MR. SAMSON: If I could use the response, a very famous response of former Premier Hamm: soon, very soon.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Mr. Hamm will be happy to know he is still being quoted. We've now been able to bring up Premier MacDonald, Premier Hamm, and I'm going to try to shoot for the trifecta over time here. (Interruption) We can probably get him in there too.

 

            You mentioned, absolutely correct, there are other forms of onshore activity and the onshore atlas will be useful for those types of activities as well. Presumably it would be helpful for companies that were thinking about coal bed methane development - it's useful for those companies?

 

            MR. SAMSON: Again it's very much along those lines, similar to our offshore, is figuring out exactly, as best we can, what is not only in the offshore, under the water and under the seabed, but in Nova Scotia what is under our land - what exactly is the rock formation, the geological formation that's there and what potential hydrocarbons may be found within those formations? Coal bed methane certainly has been one of those areas that has been of interest in this province, recognizing our very long history of coal production here in various communities throughout Nova Scotia. So there's no question - I think once the atlas is put together, that that is one element of possible geological formations and hydrocarbons that will be of interest to the industry.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Just to be clear, does the government support coal bed methane development?

 

            MR. SAMSON: We have supported that element of drilling to date, based on the technology that was used. So we do remain open to future exploration in that regard, depending on what technology is being proposed.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Is that an area where we could see increased development, increased activity? Maybe if you can give some comments on whether you see that segment growing and maybe how many jobs might be created around the province by successful increased development of that.

 

            MR. SAMSON: It's difficult to answer that because it's still a very premature industry to this point. The few wells that have been drilled for coal bed methane to date have not found any commercially viable quantities to be able to proceed, so it would be very difficult for us to predict, based on that lack of experience and lack of success to date in that specific field to predict exactly how many potential jobs there could be or potential revenues for the province. So we're not in the position now to be able to predict that.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Is the minister familiar with the activities of East Coast Energy in the Pictou County area?

 

            MR. SAMSON: I'll mention this to the member who is asking questions. When I was permanently installed in the Department of Energy, one of the first things that was put on my desk was a four-page document and, in that document, it was a listing of the acronyms used by the Department of Energy. They were single-spaced and it was four pages long, so you'll forgive me sometimes when I'm asked about specific companies or a specific acronym if I may get lost. I'm still trying to figure out how I could put those two pages in my iPhone so I can carry it with me. Anyway, it's a department that's very fond of acronyms.

 

            The energy company you refer to, we are aware that they have done some drilling in and around the New Glasgow area. To date, they have not shared with the department the results of their drilling activities.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Thank you for that answer. I was going to ask you for some of these acronyms here coming up, so we'll get to that. I heard the reference to the Maritime Link and I'm just wondering, as we sit here today, if the minister thinks the Maritime Link is a good thing.

 

            MR. SAMSON: The Maritime Link is a project that has certainly drawn quite a bit of attention, but it's one where certainly any opportunities that we have to bring in more renewable energy to our province and reduce our dependence on coal-fired generation is a positive for our province. Just last week or maybe two weeks ago, I had the opportunity to attend a signing ceremony which took place between the consortium behind the Maritime Link and the Nova Scotia Mi'kmaq chiefs. I think it was almost four years of discussions that had taken place between the company and the proponents and the chiefs here in Nova Scotia. I think it certainly set a standard that all companies and governments as well should seek to follow in ensuring that our Mi'kmaq chiefs and our Mi'kmaq communities are part of these projects.

 

            With this particular one the Unama'ki Institute is part of the scientific evaluation and assessment that's taking place in the project and has been intimately involved as well. They have worked with some of the Mi'kmaq companies to not only have them work on the project itself, but to have their employees gain experience from this that, hopefully, they will be able to use whether it be on future projects here in Nova Scotia or even projects outside of our jurisdiction, but they pick up that knowledge so that it's not just a matter of going to work, getting the work done, but that these companies pick up a level of experience and knowledge that is going to certainly assist them into the future and that they will gain that expertise.

 

            One of the biggest concerns that has been around the project is what the cost would be and what the impact would be to ratepayers. I think that's something that we and all Nova Scotians want to be assured that it's not going to have a negative impact. So we do support the project and we do look forward to seeing the construction start on our shores, and seeing this renewable energy coming into our electric grid.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: I thank the minister. Do you have any sense of when that construction may start on our shores?

 

            MR. SAMSON: Just to advise the member, some of the clearing work has started. It is my understanding, as I follow this closely, a number of the contracts have been awarded to various companies dealing with the clearing that will take place of some of the transmission lines that are going to be required.

 

            It's anticipated that the work is going to take approximately two years to be completed and it's anticipated to be done around the second half of 2017, with the hopes that transmission would begin around the last half of 2017 as well.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: I do have some questions about the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board. I wonder, can the minister tell me what acronym I can use for that? (Interruption) We'll be referring to the CNSOPB for the next few questions.

 

            At one point in the House, former Minister Younger suggested that the Department of Energy influence, I guess, the CNSOPB and really told them where to issue parcels for offshore bidding. I wonder if you recall that and if you can comment on how that process is supposed to work between the Department of Energy and the CNSOPB.

 

            MR. SAMSON: As the member is probably aware, there are representatives on this board, both appointed by the federal government and by the provincial government. In fact, speaking of former Progressive Conservative Premiers, I believe former Premier Rodney MacDonald still sits on the board, representing the federal government.

 

            It has been a collaborative approach between the board and the department in surveying what parcels are out there and which of the geosciences may work best and may attract some positive bids for the province. It's a collaborative approach; at the end of the day they do submit the proposed parcels to be put out for bids to me, as Minister of Energy. Once those are approved, the bids are then put out for public consideration.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: But the board is independent of the Department of Energy, is that true?

 

            In terms of speaking about the offshore in general, is the department working on any specific initiatives to make our offshore more attractive to investors? Is the department thinking of anything around royalties, or any of those types of initiatives, to make it more attractive to investors?

 

            MR. SAMSON: One of the big concerns that has been expressed to us from some of the potential companies who wanted to work in our offshore is the geological risk that's involved in doing work in the Nova Scotia offshore, which is why the Play Fairway Analysis provides them with so much data for them to be able to take into consideration prior to making their investment decisions.

 

            As well, they have asked us about the royalty structure and what they could anticipate should they be successful in their drilling operations. We have indicated to them that we anticipate that the existing royalty structure would apply to their projects as well. All indications are that they have accepted that and have not raised significant concerns of that.

 

            I think the other big thing is knowing we are competing with jurisdictions around the world. One of the big things that I've discovered both in my time at ERDT and with Energy, especially in recent discussions with some of the proponents around LNG development in the province and some of the investors they have brought in, one of the biggest assets that we have here is stability. Many of the places that these companies go do business in, the governments are not stable - it is either dictatorships or it's very rocky democracies and there is that financial risk element that whenever you invest in those jurisdictions that you may lose your investment because of the instability of the area you are investing in, especially in the LNG front.

 

            I've had a chance to meet with some potential investors and that was the message: your investment is safe here; we are not going to change the rules midway, and municipalities are not going to suddenly try to amend the rules. Where these projects are being proposed, the communities accept them and that's one of the big messages we've been able to give. I think with our offshore, based on the experience there is, how we've been able to work with the various partners through successive governments of all political stripes, we can now say that, that all political stripes have been in government and there still has been that level of stability. I think that's what helps make our offshore so attractive.

 

            As you've heard me mention before, both Shell and BP, with the collapse of oil prices, have cancelled exploratory projects throughout the world. Some major investments have been cancelled, and the fact that they have maintained their proposed investments and drilling work here in Nova Scotia I think speaks volumes to some of the confidence that's out there, within the industry, of Nova Scotia as a jurisdiction.

 

            Again, I'm not suggesting that is something we've created as a government; I think as a province through successive governments there has been that stability, there has been that support for the offshore. There has been that support for growth in the fact that, almost I guess each year, we are putting out bids and encouraging people to come and work in our offshore, and I think the quality of the workers that we've been able to provide and the supporting companies that work with our offshore companies that exist now, and I think one of the other things, as well, is the safety regime that has been put in place, both from government and with the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board, and companies know that when they are coming to Nova Scotia we expect them to be responsible and to respect all our safety laws.

 

            Again, as I mentioned, we want our men and women who leave to work in our offshore to come home safety, and I think we've had a very solid track record on that. While some may think that companies may frown upon the extra restrictions, I think within companies and within their shareholders and their board of directors they want to see safety and they want to see their employees come home safe at night.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: I certainly agree with those comments and I would add also that the department has a very good reputation for promoting Nova Scotia and being open for business - maybe right up until they banned fracking. (Laughter) I will say that and I mean that comment sincerely, the department has a good reputation.

 

            I do want to switch - well just on that, just to make sure I know, so the royalty structure is not under review at the moment, it is what it is and companies seem to be accepting that, and that's fine. Okay, thank you.

 

            We'll leave that and we'll go to the COMFIT program. I have heard that the system was nearing maximum capacity for the number of wind projects that can feed energy into the system. Is it the case, that we're nearing capacity for the number of projects under the COMFIT program?

 

We can take a break if the minister needs a break.

 

            MR. SAMSON: No, just the last part of . . .

 

MR. HOUSTON: On the COMFIT program - the system is nearing the maximum capacity for the amount of energy that can be fed into the system under the COMFIT program. I just wanted some comments from you on that.

 

            MR. SAMSON: There was a study done a few years ago which identified that 500 megawatts would be a target area, that if we were to exceed that there would be some capital investments that would have to be made on the transmission side to be able to handle that additional energy being brought in.

 

            There are a couple of concerns that came with COMFIT as well. As you know with COMFIT, there's a guaranteed rate that's provided to the suppliers - just to give you an example, for large winds it's about 13.5 cents whereas from the traditional coal-fired, that's more in the range of 6 to 8 cents per megawatt hour.

 

            When it was put in place, obviously we were all supportive of green energy and everything else, but there's a price for green energy. So not only was there a concern with having too much capacity being built and the need to upgrade the transmissions system, but there needs to be a balance. We heard that very clearly in the electricity review for Nova Scotians in that we want green energy, but we don't want our power bills to go up.

 

            It has been a bit of a balancing act that the department has tried to ensure there is a balance between how much more green energy is being brought onto the system without having a negative impact on what people are paying for their rates.

 

            One of the other issues with COMFIT, which is why we pressed the pause button is that the whole idea with COMFIT is that it was to be smaller projects that were in communities and that the communities were investing in these projects. Some of the proposals we started seeing coming in were very large scale and mostly private investments being made, not the whole community-owned and community-supported initiatives which we wanted to see.

 

            That's why, having reached a certain level with the projects that were approved of how much capacity would be put in the system, the department - and certainly with my support and the support of our government - felt it's time at this point to ask: where do we go next with the project and what should it look like? The one big thing the industry told us is let us know, we need to know what the rules are, and we need to know what types of projects we should be putting in the system that the government will approve or which ones the government would not look favourably upon. That's why we've done that.

 

            It fits well with what we're doing as part of the electricity review, and the timing works well in that we fully anticipate that the decisions made with COMFIT will fit into the electricity review that we will be bringing forward this Fall, as I've previously mentioned.

 

            Just before I finish, under the chapter of neat things that you get to do as a minister, last weekend I had the opportunity to join representatives from Scotia WindFields to go visit the new turbine which was put in on Isle Madame, in Richmond County, which as soon as you come into, you cross the Lennox Passage Bridge and you see this massive turbine, just one unit, but it's 300 feet high - 100 metres - and not only did we get to see it from the outside, but then you can actually walk into the tower that holds up the turbine and there is a small, well they call it an elevator, I think a lift may be more appropriate. I know my colleague from Eastern Passage here may have other words that she would use to describe it. Knowing her admiration for the elevators in our office buildings, I can think of colourful language she would describe what this thing was, which is basically just held up by cables, but we had the opportunity to go right to the very top.

 

            They stopped the blades while we went there and we had the opportunity to go up inside to see exactly where the blades are, the very large turbine that's within it as well that basically generates, converts it to electricity. Even neater than that, they actually have these skylights on top where we were able to climb up, pop them open, and stick our heads out 300 feet into the air and look at the area around it.

 

            For anyone who is going to try this - and I encourage members to do so - try not to pay attention to the blades because even though they've stopped it, they will slowly move. I can tell you, when you're standing 300 feet in the air and you see that blade slowly moving, your body naturally feels that the whole tower is going with the blade, which I can assure you on a Saturday morning, it's not a good feeling to have. So I would strongly recommend - do not pay attention to that blade too much, but it's an incredible piece of infrastructure.

 

            The one thing that they did tell me after their visit, which I'm not sure should be a source of pride or not, but they did indicate that their wind expectations on Isle Madame were being exceeded. So we're a very windy place and, as far as Scotian WindFields is concerned, that's a good thing for the investment that they have made.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: After hearing all of your introductory comments, I couldn't possibly comment on the amount of wind that must have been around there that day. (Laughter) I would like to give you a chance to put a bit of whipped cream and a cherry on top of that story if you could tell me that tower came from Trenton. I'd be really happy to hear that; I don't know if that's the case or not.

 

            In terms of the COMFIT program, I wonder if you have to hand the total approved megawatt capacity that has been approved, as we sit here, under the COMFIT program, and then I'll follow that up and ask: how much of the approved is actually being delivered?

 

            MR. SAMSON: Under the COMFIT program, to date approximately 230 megawatts have been approved. Of that, approximately between 120 to 130 of that is either currently in operation or is under construction, so they're actively going forward. So some of the approvals that were given, the companies have either not moved forward on it yet or are still under the process.

 

            I guess the other thing to keep in mind, just so it's clear with you, is that COMFIT is mostly the smaller projects. Outside of COMFIT are the larger ones, South Canoe, for example, which you've probably heard of, that doesn't fall under COMFIT. Those are considered large wind projects and they would be out of that. So if you did have questions specific to that, then we could certainly get you that information.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: I didn't write down the number, but 230 was approved and one hundred-something was online or heading towards online. So when is there a purchase agreement signed for the project? Is it just when it comes online, I guess? I'm trying to get to - if all of the approved projects and the 230 megawatts, give or take, if that all came online, is that significant enough to have an impact on rates, or is that kind of not significant in the scheme of the whole ratepayer system?

 

            MR. SAMSON: Just for the information of the member, once a project receives approval - it is assumed that the power purchase agreement is in place once it has been approved. What we have seen is that a number of the projects have run into some difficulty in securing the financing for the project so they will put the proposal forward, be approved, and then they need to go out and get the necessary financing.

 

            As I pointed out, one of the components of the COMFIT program is there needs to be community buy-in, and with the Community Economic Development Investment Fund program there's a certain component of their financing that needs to come from that. There have been some discussions about how that should take place, but there needs to be that buy-in from the community as well.

 

            On your question of what is the impact on the rates, it is anticipated that with these approvals over time, because some of them as I mentioned to you, 120 to 130 are either in or actively being put into place, it is assumed through that that over time there could be a 1 to 2 per cent impact on rates. Again, that's the balancing act that we're trying to ensure, and the message we clearly heard from Nova Scotians is we want green energy, but we don't want to pay more. So it's finding that way of ensuring that happens - as well not only rates but certainly our obligations in reducing our greenhouse gases is all part of that equation as well.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: I thank the minister for that. Presumably these COMFIT projects had a positive impact on the local energy supply system. I don't know if the department has done any kind of analysis as to what the positive economic impact might have been for the energy supply chain market here locally.

 

            MR. SAMSON: That data is being collected right now and it is our hope that we'll be able to provide an annual report showing the economic benefits of not only the construction but the ongoing benefits, so Nova Scotians can see for themselves. We're still at the stage of collecting that information before it's ready to be put out for public consideration.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Thank you for that, because I would have thought that we probably developed some expertise in that wind supply market, in the supply chain. So with the pause button being hit for however long, I wonder if the department has thought about, or is thinking of, ways to help that local expertise that we've developed here through the COMFIT program, reach out into other markets and help those companies expand.

 

            MR. SAMSON: To answer your question, I guess what we've seen from a number of the companies that have set up here in Nova Scotia is they have developed a bit of an expertise here and we are now seeing those companies making investments outside of Nova Scotia, based on the knowledge that they have built up here.

 

            One of the things as well, when you ask about the benefits outside and everything else, and if I can put my old economic development hat on, you'll recall that the previous government had made a significant investment in the old Trenton Works plant, which is now DSTN, with the hope of being able to build the towers for wind turbines and to be able to sell them all over Canada and into the United States, and two of the biggest markets in their business plan were both Ontario and Quebec.

 

            Unfortunately for the company and unfortunately for Nova Scotians, and through no fault of the previous government, those provinces put in very specific rules that required local benefits for the production of wind turbines in the provinces which, basically, shut the door to DSTN to be able to go into those markets, building those towers here in the province, so that has made it a bigger challenge.

 

            We are hoping and we continue to work with the company and if there are opportunities to see some of the construction of the components here, even better. I know speaking with Scotia WindFields when we toured their turbine over in Isle Madame, the blades actually came from - I'm trying to remember - if I'm correct I believe it was down in California, somewhere there, so it was shipped from there to get to Isle Madame. So there are parts of these that are very specific and we'd love to see more production take place here in the province, but there have been some challenges with that, especially the fact that other jurisdictions have put up some significant barriers to allowing Nova Scotia companies to be able to sell turbines and towers into their markets.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: With my last minute and a half for this opening hour, I'd like to return to where we started. We started talking about great former Premiers. Today is the birthday of a former Premier and I just wonder if the minister knows who that Premier might be. It's John Buchanan. So we have the cycle there. I thank the minister for his responses.

 

            MR. SAMSON: I would just say that if you are going to mention former Premier Buchanan that the least you could do is give us your best rendition of Out on the Mira if you are going to bring up his memory. I was talking to one of his former colleagues, former Premier Buchanan is still practising law. God love him; he has always been a great champion of Nova Scotia and has lots of stories to tell. If you get the chance to talk to him, certainly tell him Happy Birthday and send my love to Mavis.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: We'll move our questioning on to the New Democratic Party, and you can begin your hour of questioning.

 

            The honourable member for Chester-St. Margaret's.

 

            HON. DENISE PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you, Madam Chairman. I'm the new Critic for Energy, so we're both newbies here, minister, we'll work together.

 

            What I'd like to start with is to talk about Muskrat Falls and the vision. As you know from our previous Premier, Darrell Dexter, that was a big project for Mr. Dexter. I think he was certainly a visionary when it came to Muskrat Falls and the entire Maritime Link project. As you are aware, when you come up with something that is new, the challenge is that you have to be able to sell that and be able to have the public and people understand that we have to think beyond the four-year political cycle, or the five-year cycle, for our future in Nova Scotia.

 

            Of course that project was looking at a 35-year agreement and I know that our government was passionate about it because of the fact that it is a project that certainly would stabilize our energy rates here, which as we all know we're all working towards - and especially displace our reliance on fossil fuels and coal. We know that the prices with respect to coal over the last number of years skyrocketed and that was one of the pressures that was put on increasing the electricity rates in our province.

 

            What we always talked about when trying to explain it - and it's interesting now that you're in government you're using the same terminology that we use; you didn't use it when you were in Opposition, but you're using it now - and that was about the electricity "loop," which is certainly a good way to explain it because, as you're probably learning very quickly, the whole energy and the electricity sector and the past and the present and future can be very complicated in how it works and how you can manage it and how you are able to go forward to try to come up with some strategies and solutions for the reduction of the electricity prices. It's not just about what's happening here alone in Nova Scotia, it's on a worldwide basis that puts pressures in terms of oil and gas and in terms of the use of coal.

 

            We know that Muskrat Falls is certainly a source of clean energy and will create many jobs in the province. It is that loop that we needed, instead of a one-way source that perhaps if it came from Hydro-Québec, if there was an issue with the supply of energy, it could actually be much more challenging than having this actual loop.

 

            The question that I would like to ask you is that I do recall - that's one advantage of being here a little bit longer, but I don't think I'll ever be here as long as you; you must have a very special formula and I do know that you do a good job for the people you represent and that's why you're here and you will be here for a long time - I just want to know, one of the issues that you certainly had in Opposition was what that cost would be for the electricity coming from Muskrat Falls, and we heard that over and over again and it was something that at the time you couldn't sit down and do all the math behind it, so I'm just wondering, now that you're in government and you have that information, have you been able to work out what that end cost will be to the consumer for the power rates?

 

            MR. SAMSON: I thank my colleague for her comments. I'm not sure I really want her wishes of being here for much longer - it's a long time to come through, it has been 17 years. I never thought it would be this long when I first got elected in 1998 at the age of 25, but it has been a very interesting experience and one I've truly enjoyed.

 

            On your question of what we said in Opposition, what we say now in government - as I'm sure you know, as a former minister, they do take you into the departments and plug you in and download the information into you and you start using language you never used before. I'm sure you'll remember that from your time as minister.

 

            You are correct, obviously the Maritime Link project and Muskrat Falls is a massive investment and massive undertaking in both the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and the Province of Nova Scotia. At the time there were a lot of concerns about whether the project would even be able to come in within budget. That wasn't just a criticism of the government of the day, but I think Nova Scotians had seen so many other massive projects get way over budget. One can even look at the Bluenose II as an example, I guess of a smaller project, but how quickly good intentions can suddenly get a bit out of control on the cost front. That was a concern we had and it concerned Nova Scotians as well. They were relaying to us in Opposition that they feared we were getting ourselves into a project that was going to have massive overruns and that that would be borne as a cost to Nova Scotians.

 

            What I can tell the member and what we're pleased to see is that up until now the project has remained within budget, which I think is something we can all be very proud of and certainly pleased to see that it is remaining within budget.

 

            On your question of what the exact costs of the power would be and the difficulties in determining that, there was a hearing by the Utility and Review Board where it was determined by the board that the cost pressures of the electricity coming from Muskrat Falls, through the Maritime Link, would be approximately a 1 per cent burden on rates over a period of five years.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So what you are saying is it would be an extra 1 per cent on top of what the rates would be of today - is that the comparison? I understood that the rate might be slightly higher than what consumers are used to paying presently and that was because of the stability. To get 35 years of stability means a great deal to Nova Scotians. Whether it is because of your family and your household budgeting to businesses, it is really important if a business is able to budget on an annual basis knowing that the electricity prices are going to be stable for at least 35 years; it is quite incredible.

 

            I just wanted to clarify - is that 1 per cent burden based on what the rates would be now, in 2015?

 

            MR. SAMSON: Yes, based on the hearing from the board it was anticipated that it would be a 1 per cent pressure on current rates for the next five years.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: What is the prediction of the number of jobs that will be created within Nova Scotia once we get to that point in the project?

 

            MR. SAMSON: We could get you that information, member. As I mentioned earlier, I know that a number of the contracts for some of the clearing work and the transmission installation has been awarded to some companies, but as far as the specific numbers, we could certainly provide you with as much information as we have, based on what they've provided to us.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I believe quite a few jobs will be created for a number of years, so I feel compelled to have on record that I think this project, Maritime Link and Muskrat Falls, is a fine legacy from Premier Darrell Dexter and I'm glad to see that it's on budget and it's going forward in the way he envisioned it would go.

 

            I now want to talk a little bit about a few words that really worked for you and that's "breaking the monopoly" on power. I wanted to talk to you about that with respect to - I know that you brought legislation forward - can you tell me, has the legislation actually broken the monopoly or what is different now than it was, let's say, two years ago?

 

            MR. SAMSON: As the member pointed out, there was legislation passed in the House in December 2013. What is different now from two years ago is the question you've posed. Two years ago the only entity that could legally sell power in Nova Scotia was Nova Scotia Power. With the legislation that was passed by our government, as part of our campaign commitment to break the monopoly, renewable energy producers will be able to sell directly to customers.

 

            I guess the next question you will probably have is, when? We expect that will be in place, as foreseen by the legislation, that will be in place next year. So for the first time renewable energy producers will be able to sell directly to customers. I remember, I believe it was the Hamm Government, and it was in 2005 that Professor Hughes, I believe, was it Recommendation 51? (Interruptions) My memory is still good after 17 years. That was the recommendation that suggested selling directly, that renewable energy producers would be able to sell directly to customers. That was back in 2005, so 10 years later it is only with the legislation passed in 2013 that that is being made into a reality.

 

            Our question back then was, why wasn't this happening? It has been a long journey to get here; the recommendation has been sitting there for 10 years. I'm pleased to say that our government kept our commitment of breaking the monopoly and we expect that next year you will start seeing energy producers outside of Nova Scotia Power being able to sell directly to customers.

 

            I can tell you that there's a level of excitement out there in communities, especially where these wind turbines are located, at knowing the potential that is there, how much energy they are bringing into the grid. When you hear talk about turbines being able to provide electricity for 200, 300, 400-plus homes, I think there's a level of excitement there. Having talked to a few of the renewable energy producers, they are prepared to go and compete for that business, knowing they will have to compete and they will have to be providing customers with rates that are going to be competitive to Nova Scotia Power and to others as well.

 

            At the end of the day we're certainly looking forward to seeing that this is going to be a win for Nova Scotians.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE:  Can you tell me, the renewable energy producers, who would they be - what type of industry or businesses would those be?

 

            MR. SAMSON: Just to clarify, you're asking for the names of the companies or more just the types of companies? If it's the types, we would anticipate it would be mostly in the wind sector and the solar sector where companies may look to be selling electricity directly to Nova Scotia customers.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Would it be realistic to say that if somebody was being provided with wind energy or solar energy they would need to have some type of backup energy which could possibly be through Nova Scotia Power?

 

            MR. SAMSON: You raise a very good point. Again, with 17 years' experience there's lots of stuff I probably should forget, but I haven't. When you talk about reliability of wind and solar power, it reminds me of a former Minister of Energy, Bill Dooks, who unfortunately when asked about the reliability of wind power, had asked out loud, to his dismay - if he could go back I am sure he would change it - he basically said well what happens if the wind stops blowing? Unfortunately he went on to explain a bit further, but that's the quote that the media went with and that became the running joke, that we had found one Nova Scotian who actually thought the wind would stop blowing in our province.

 

            It was a legitimate concern. Again, in Opposition we would never have said that but now, in government, we can look back and say that it was a legitimate concern he was raising. It's a good point that you are raising as well, because there has to be that reliability factor. So what the Utility and Review Board is looking at now, and why this is taking a bit longer to be able to have the renewable energy producers sell directly to customers, is how will there be that reliability factor.

 

            A couple of options are being looked at, and this is what the board will have to decide, as to whether as a consumer you can buy a package deal - so much will come from a renewable source, another part of it would be the reliability of Nova Scotia Power, or will there be an opportunity for some of these energy producers to buy a backup from Nova Scotia Power that they can then have as security and reliability for the customer? That's what the Utility and Review Board is looking at now - how that will look, and what options will be made available.

 

But there's no question there needs to be a guarantee that whatever source of power Nova Scotians are going with, that for all intents and purposes there is reliability there that if something does go wrong there is a backup plan is in place. That's what the board is looking at, and we do expect that within the next number of months there will be some greater clarity for Nova Scotians as to what that would look like.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: To follow up, I'm wondering if you had a source of renewable energy through a business that was providing wind energy; how many customers could they provide electricity to?

 

            MR. SAMSON: There really are no set limits on who they could provide electricity to. Again, the burden would be on them to be able to deliver for the number of customers they would anticipate having. And, again, it would depend on the size of the producer, whether they are doing solar or whether they are doing wind. It's difficult to answer your question because there isn't really a set limit of saying it can only be this many or that many, it would really depend on the producer and what they feel they can safely provide to the amount of customers.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE:  Has the department done an analysis on how many renewable energy sources we would require in order to fulfill the needs of all Nova Scotians, in terms of electricity? I appreciate what you said because you need to know the size of the particular business, but has there been a study done to show that, okay, in Nova Scotia if we were going to break the monopoly and supply everybody in the province with an alternate source of energy beside Nova Scotia Power, that we would need so many wind energy businesses, and do the math, well this one provides energy for X number of customers, how many solar companies would we need - has a study been done on that so that we have an idea of how many of these projects we need to have up and running in the province in order to be able to provide the consumers the amount of energy they require?

 

            MR. SAMSON: To answer the member's question, there hasn't been a specific study done on that. Once you start opening up the market it will be a determination of how much the private developers, how much power they are able to produce and what price they are able to sell it at that would be competitive with what is being offered by Nova Scotia Power. Only at that point, once those factors start to fall into place, then you would start seeing exactly how much capacity can be put into the system.

 

            I guess if your question is if Nova Scotia Power disappeared tomorrow, how much would we need, that specifically hasn't been looked at.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE:             I'm just wondering also - has the department looked at historically where this has been tried in other provinces in terms of the difficulties and the challenges that were faced when the electricity system was being opened up to other sources? For example, New Brunswick, British Columbia, and Ontario, this was tried and unfortunately did not work, one of the reasons being, or one of the prime reasons that it has been very difficult to do that is it is very challenging for any of those businesses to get started because the funding envelope is just not there for them. If they go to a bank or try to get investors, the problem is that without having a number of customers already who are agreeable to use their source of energy, the funders will not provide the dollars.

 

That is the reason why they did not succeed in trying to do the same thing that we are attempting to do here in Nova Scotia, so I guess my question is, did the department look at those cases and discover that that was a prime challenge, and if the department members have done that, why do they think it would work any differently here in Nova Scotia?

 

            MR. SAMSON: What I would answer is that what we heard from Nova Scotians is they want a choice, and so we've passed legislation to create the conditions under which they can have a choice. In doing so, we're doing it in a very incremental way in that we haven't set specific targets; we're not looking to make massive changes overnight. We are looking at providing the framework that would allow independent renewable producers to be able to make offers to customers to provide them with their electricity needs, and then the customers at the end of the day will have to make that decision.

 

            Some customers may choose that they want to remain with Nova Scotia Power, but what I can tell you is that in some of the jurisdictions that you mention, when they did make these changes they opened it up and it was a significant change all at once, which is partly what lead to some of the issues that they had there.

 

            On your concern about financing, again, it's the private marketplace. The burden will be on these producers to be able to get the financing in place to be able to go out and provide Nova Scotians with a competitive rate, to try to get their business. There is no burden on the government here or burden on ratepayers - this is a burden on the companies. If they're unable to get financing, then they're unable to go out and offer the customers to be able to provide them with renewable energy.

 

            That's why we think it will be different in Nova Scotia just with the approach, as well the oversight that's being done by the Utility and Review Board throughout all of this, I think gives us that level of confidence that this will be done in a staged way, in an incremental way, and not one that would create some of the uncertainty as you've mentioned that has taken place in other jurisdictions - whether they be here in Canada or in the United States.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I appreciate and respect the fact that you did step forward and create the condition by passing legislation that provides a choice; however, as a consumer of electricity, and I believe when I talk to people on the doorsteps, their impression is that they would find a savings in their electricity - not like 15, 20 years down the road, they felt in a short term. So based on the fact that we're really just at the beginning, taking baby steps towards making available other renewable resources, is it fair to say that we really haven't broken the monopoly? We created a condition to break the monopoly, but the monopoly is not broken. My choice right now is only Nova Scotia Power unless I put up my own little wind tower or something. So is it fair to say that the monopoly is really not broken?

 

            MR. SAMSON: I guess my response to the honourable member would be - you're saying today you would have no choice; I would suggest to you that that choice will come next year.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So I will have several choices next year? I'll tell my husband because he pays the power bill right now. I will have several choices next year?

 

            MR. SAMSON: Again, it's going to be up to the market, it's going to be up to private industry. The important thing here is that it is not government that is putting taxpayers at risk with these initiatives.

 

            One of the challenges, and having spoken with one of the wind energy producers, is that under COMFIT they are paid a set rate, which we know is higher than what Nova Scotia Power tells us they can produce electricity for, so the challenge for them is going to be to be able to put together a business plan moving forward that is going to be able to compete with those rates. As I mentioned earlier, with the electricity review, Nova Scotians are all for renewable energy as long as it doesn't cost more.

 

            The challenge will be for the marketplace there to identify, can they produce electricity at a competitive rate and can they do their financing that is going to back that up? Then, at that point, they will be in a position to go and offer that to consumers.

 

            What I can tell you is from the number of the renewable energy producers I have talked to, they are very excited by this and they are moving forward as to how they are going to be able to do this. It's not a question of whether they want to, they're in. They just want to see exactly what the Utility and Review Board will decide as to how it should look, but they certainly are very excited about the ability to be able to sell their energy directly to Nova Scotia consumers.

 

            Again, by next year we do anticipate that you will see some choices being offered to Nova Scotians as to from where they can purchase their electricity.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you very much. I will make sure that I'll let my husband know. He needs a good amount of energy because he does the cleaning, too, with a Dyson vacuum cleaner, which he absolutely loves, and that does take a little bit of energy.

 

            Will it be different, though, in rural Nova Scotia versus Halifax? Where do you think the options will first come forward for Nova Scotians, or do you just not know at this point?

 

            MR. SAMSON: That's a good question that you ask because it's going to be up to the marketplace to decide this. Some of the producers may have different approaches. For example, the turbine I referred to earlier on Isle Madame may try to market itself to the residents of Isle Madame by saying your power is being produced locally and this is part of our strategy in convincing you to be our customers in that you can drive by and see that it is green energy and renewable energy that is being used to provide electricity to your home. But, at the same time, it's entirely possible that a wind project in northern Nova Scotia could be used as a source of electricity to sell to people in Clayton Park.

 

            It's very difficult to say at this point in time exactly what marketing mechanisms they will use as to which parts of the province will be identified by renewable energy producers to sell directly to customers. That will be up to them, and I guess that a bit of the joys of the free marketplace that it will be up to them to determine where their opportunities are, what makes most financial sense for them. We can all hope that they have success and that that success will be spread throughout the province.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you. I'm just wondering, you said you've talked to a number of businesses that are biting at the bit in order to get started with this - do you have a list of those businesses? Is there a process in place for them to work with government on this or do they just go out on their own and they actually start the business? Is there a connection with the department and some type of application form so you have some framework and control over the businesses that would be established, where they will be established, et cetera?

 

            MR. SAMSON: You are asking me which specific businesses I have spoken to and I revert to my legal training in that I would never disclose my clients, nor would I disclose the specific companies I speak to. I am sure the honourable member would respect that.

 

            What I can tell you is that the licensing for renewable energy producers to be able to sell directly to customers would go to the Utility and Review Board, so it's not from the department. I, as minister, would not be in a position to issue licences, the board itself is who would make the determinations on who would be given the licence.

 

            Going back to your earlier question of what is different from two years ago - two years ago and prior to the legislation the only franchisee that had a licence to sell electricity to Nova Scotians was Nova Scotia Power.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Hasn't one of the challenges been the fact that Nova Scotia Power owns the grid, so that has been the source of the problem here in terms of by giving an opportunity for renewable resources and other businesses coming in, I believe that's very good, but I do know that when we talked about reliability and alternate sources one of the real challenges is because Nova Scotia Power owns the grid, so they're not going to sell any electricity from that grid that is going to undercut their business. Can you just give us a little more background in how you think you may overcome that challenge?

 

            MR. SAMSON: To your question, the grid in Nova Scotia is overseen by Nova Scotia Power, but it works on an open access system that if you are able to produce electricity to put into the grid, that is then governed by the Utility and Review Board which is currently working now to determine what the rates should be for using the grid system that is there. That's all part of the equation that will have to be factored in by renewable energy producers when they're trying to determine what they can sell their electricity for, recognizing that there will be a cost established by the Utility and Review Board to use the grid system to be able to transmit their power.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So does that mean that when say, for example, when that is established, or solar power, the only means for that power to get to the consumer will be through the grid system?

 

            MR. SAMSON: Normally yes, that would be the form of transmission that would be used.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So the issue will be that the URB has to look at that and see what's a competitive - are you telling me that they have the right to say okay to Nova Scotia Power that we have X number of new renewable energy sources and it's going to take this much of the grid? I know I'm not using the technical terms that your department members would use, so please excuse me for that, but I guess I'm saying it in layman terms to try to understand that. So URB has - excuse the pun - the power over Nova Scotia Power to say what amount would be used on the grid?

 

            If that's so, could they essentially cause trouble in the marketplace for Nova Scotia Power if they allow too many renewable companies to use the grid? Of course as we know, Nova Scotia Power is a private company. They have shareholders. There are a lot of factors that come into play to keep a corporation at that level viable - so can you give me a little explanation how you see that working?

 

            MR. SAMSON: The legislation in it requires that the Utility and Review Board set a rate that would be a cost recovery system that at the end of the day would not cause any harm to Nova Scotia Power or to the ratepayers of the province. So the board itself is who would be mandated to ensure that.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So if that's the case, then that would mean that whatever any of the renewable energy companies utilize on that grid, they will have to pay a competitive rate the same as Nova Scotia Power - at least equal, if not more. So at the end of the day, if you do the math, wouldn't that mean that the rate for the electricity from those renewable sources will most likely be higher than what Nova Scotia Power is offering?

 

            MR. SAMSON: That's all part of the equation that's going to go in for the renewable energy producers in determining what the rate could be. We know that many Nova Scotians want to pay the lowest possible for electricity, but we also know that there are many Nova Scotians who are very conscientious about the environment and about where they get their electricity and that. It will be up to the renewable energy producers to determine if there is a market there amongst Nova Scotians that they may not always be looking for the lowest costs in knowing that the impact on greenhouse gases, the renewable element of the electricity coming into their home may be such that there may be a market there, which is yet to be determined, of Nova Scotians who may be willing to pay a bit more in knowing that what they are getting into their homes is renewable electricity.

 

            Those are all factors that an open, competitive marketplace will determine, but you're right, the cost of using the transmission system will have to be factored in and that's one of the challenges that they'll have to work into their business plan and to their financing and, at the end of the day, what rate that they're prepared to offer to Nova Scotians to try to pick them up as customers.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I do agree with you - I think that there is a portion of people in Nova Scotia who certainly would be willing to pay more, knowing that it's a green source of energy; however, I think there's a great anticipation that there's going to be lower prices in the province and that's what I hear from people asking: when is that going to happen?

 

            I also wanted to ask you, minister, that while in Opposition there was a great bit of conversation about Hydro-Québec and that if you made government that would be one source of possibility that would be pursued. I'm wondering, would you be able to provide me with information on what conversations have taken place between your department and Hydro-Québec since 2013?

 

            MR. SAMSON: My predecessor, Minister Younger, did meet with his provincial counterpart in Montreal responsible for Hydro-Québec after he assumed the Ministry of Energy. As well, what I can point out to you is that Nova Scotia Power had issued a bid for power suppliers and Hydro-Québec did not respond to that bid. It would appear that in the eyes of Hydro-Québec Nova Scotia is not a big enough market to draw their attention. In the past there have been concerns about the transmission capabilities between our province and Quebec, through New Brunswick and everything else, as it is anticipated that once the Maritime Link is completed it will open up opportunities for Nova Scotia Power to be able to purchase power from sources outside our province, which potentially could include Hydro-Québec.

 

            As well in my opening comments I mentioned that the Energy and Mines Ministers' Conference is being hosted by us here in Halifax this summer and I certainly look forward to that opportunity to meet with my counterpart from Quebec to further discuss any opportunities that exist between our provinces, to try to once again get the best deal possible for Nova Scotia ratepayers.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I know it was repeated many times in Opposition about Hydro-Québec as an alternate source, so they actually in fact were not an alternate source due to the fact that there have been transmission issues and that we are a small market so they wouldn't consider us anyway unless, as you said, once the Maritime Link opens it more for them to offer the electricity to Nova Scotia Power.

 

            I guess what I'm asking is, why beforehand did that seem to be an alternative to our power problems here?

 

            MR. SAMSON: I believe it's safe to say that in Opposition we certainly didn't believe that the government of the day had provided enough assurance to Nova Scotians that the option of using Hydro-Québec had been fully explored and that they were able to tell Nova Scotians that it wasn't an option and that there had been significant discussions in that regard.

 

            I believe it's still safe to say at this point that looking back that did appear to have taken place by the previous administration with Hydro-Québec. There were a number of reasons, or concerns I should say, that were expressed, but as far as the level of confidence that all efforts had been made to look to other options for sourcing electricity to Nova Scotia, whether it be Hydro-Québec or whether it be other jurisdictions, in Opposition we didn't feel that we had that assurance and, looking back today, I still don't believe that we did have those assurances back then.

 

            As I've indicated, Nova Scotia Power did issue a bid and at the end of the day Hydro-Québec did not respond to it. The reasons for that are known to Hydro-Québec. They are obviously an energy player that is involved in several jurisdictions. We are left to try to reach our own conclusions as to why they did not respond to that bid or express a specific interest in producing power to Nova Scotia or to Nova Scotia Power. I think it would be a bit too simplistic to suggest that it's because of transmission that this hasn't been looked at.

 

            Obviously while they are owned by the province, they are run as a corporation to try to earn monies for the people of Quebec and obviously will make investment decisions in the marketplaces where they feel they are going to get the best return for their shareholders, who are the people of Quebec.

 

            It's kind of interesting when you raise that because I remember at that time that with the previous government there was almost the sense that Hydro-Québec was a villain and that they were a big, bad corporation. Ironically, they are owned by the people of Quebec and they were not a corporation, they were a state-owned utility owned by the people of Quebec and run on their behalf, which exists in other jurisdictions.

 

            Knowing that the amount of energy they were getting from hydro sources, which obviously was a renewable source of electricity, knowing that Quebec - and I can tell you from my own experience with the pulp mill back home run by Stora at the time and then Stora Enso, and then went on to be run by NewPage, it's almost like keeping track of the tank farm in Point Tupper and I've been elected for 17 years and I think they've been under 17 different company names in my time - one of the concerns, going back to when I was first elected, when the pulp mill would talk about their costs it was labour, wood supply, and electricity. For us in Point Tupper, electricity was number one, wood was number two, and labour was number three.

 

In Quebec it was the exact opposite - it was wood, it was labour, and it was electricity, which is what made it so difficult for our mills to be able to compete because of the fact that pulp mills naturally rely upon a high level of electricity and power. So to be competing against mills in Quebec where your number-one cost in Nova Scotia is their number-three cost there, obviously made it that much more of a challenge.

 

            Having seen exactly what the impact was on that industry, and seeing the fact that Hydro-Québec was able to provide a much cheaper form of electricity was an advantage to their province, made it more of a challenge for us because of the fact that we're all competing - the paper products, both super calendered and newsprint were going into the same market. So when you are competing against a jurisdiction that obviously is able to provide its mills with a much cheaper price of electricity made it a challenge.

 

            When the debate was around where we should be sourcing our electricity in Nova Scotia and which jurisdictions could possibly provide us with a cheaper rate that could be passed on to consumers, obviously Hydro-Québec was one that we felt, in Opposition, should have been fully explored.

 

            Again, I don't think we were given the confidence that that was taking place. Again, I can tell you that I was troubled by the way that the former Premier was painting Hydro-Québec as this villain and that somehow it was a big, bad corporation when, again, it was owned by the people of Quebec, whom I think are fine people and whom I have a great deal of respect for, so that animosity that seemed to exist caused us great concern, that was there, that level of discussion taking place, whether it be from the Premier's Office or from the minister at the time, was Nova Scotia Power even being encouraged to look at Hydro-Québec as a possible alternative.

 

            I can tell you that we didn't have that level of confidence, which is why we raised the concerns that we felt. We felt that as an Opposition that it was our duty to encourage the government of the day to look at all possible supplies of electricity and we didn't have the confidence that that was taking place.

 

            At the same time you had the whole northeastern United States and the possibility that that may have been able to provide some electricity and some power to Nova Scotia and the question became: what efforts were undertaken to look at that possible market and to establish relations both from the level of the province, along with Nova Scotia Power, to see whether options were out there?

 

            Again, that was a concern that we had, as you asked about in Opposition, was to get that level of certainty that all avenues were being explored, all options were being looked at, with the hopes of being able to give Nova Scotians the best possible rate for electricity. Again not only for Nova Scotian homeowners and everything else, but looking again at my own situation at home with the pulp mill and knowing the cost that is involved in the process of making paper, whether it be newsprint or whether it be super calendered, it's something that was of great concern because it was an important, and remains an important, employer in our community.

 

This was a time when we were seeing pulp mills closing all around Canada, all around North America. In many cases they were being priced out of the market because of the fact that product was being produced at a cheaper rate than what could be produced by their mills. Certainly Quebec was one of the areas that their mills were putting a particular pressure on the market because of the fact that they were able to produce at a much cheaper rate.

 

            Looking at all those factors, it's all part of the role when you're in Opposition to ensure that the government of the day is looking at all options and the goal is to put out suggestions of being able to ask, was this option looked at? Was that option looked at? I think that was part of our responsibility. Again, for us, Hydro-Québec was one of those that we felt should be looked at, which is why we were seeking those assurances.

 

            What I can tell the honourable member is, as I mentioned, with the ministers' meeting that is coming up this summer, I certainly look forward to talking with my colleagues all around the country. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, I believe we were contacted recently by Newfoundland and Labrador that is looking at setting up some meetings. We certainly look forward to being able to meet with them and to learn of some of the challenges they faced and, more importantly, learn of some of the successes they have had as well and to be able to bring that knowledge back.

 

            I have no doubt that many jurisdictions will be curious to see what we're doing here in Nova Scotia and how we are looking to give consumers a choice, which is the message that we heard loud and clear, which was the commitment that was made in our platform, and by next year I think you'll clearly be seeing that those efforts are going to bring success to our province.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: We'll now move our questioning back to the Progressive Conservative caucus.

 

The honourable member for Pictou East.

 

            MR. TIM HOUSTON: The old blades on the wind turbine were just spinning.

 

            I want to talk a little bit about tidal energy. I think I heard the minister say in his opening comments that they were going to introduce marine renewable energy legislation in the Fall, or was that this session?

 

            MR. SAMSON: On that one I would say, stay tuned.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Maybe we'll get the chance to debate that before the session is over.

 

I'm just wondering if the minister has any thoughts on the competitiveness of the international tidal energy sector. We obviously have a pretty impressive tidal opportunity here, that if we can harness that, presumably we could become world leaders - and I think you might even have referenced that in your comments. I was just wondering, is there a real opportunity for us to really be a leader in that industry in the world - does the minister kind of see that?

 

            MR. SAMSON: For us it is twofold when we talk about tidal power and our opportunities here. First of all, because this is such a new and emerging industry, we really have an opportunity to be leaders, but to create expertise at the same time which would allow Nova Scotians and Nova Scotia companies to go sell that expertise all over the world.

 

            One of the other great benefits that we have here is because of where the Bay of Fundy is located and where the force has been set up; we are close to market, which gives us a great opportunity there.

 

            I believe it was during the conference that was held here last Fall, there was a French delegation and obviously they wanted to talk and they met with a number of our ministers. They were telling me during our meeting that one of their biggest challenges in France is that where they have tidal opportunities, but they're too far from the market. They're in remote areas - isolated areas - and the challenge for them was how do we harness that tidal power and how do we get it from there over to a big enough-sized market to make it commercially viable. That was one of the challenges, one of the biggest obstacles that they saw to making their tidal energy work is because of geography, basically where it was located.

 

            For us, that's why we are as enthusiastic as we are about tidal energy here, and that, first of all, because of its location we think that we can hopefully over time the companies involved will find a way to get the price of that electricity at a competitive rate. We know that it would be significantly higher than traditional electricity sources, as what Nova Scotia Power is now getting by burning coal. So hopefully over time that price will get more competitive, but at the same time for us it's about the benefits that we will gain and the expertise we will gain.

 

That was one of the big initiatives back in - it started with the Savage Government and MacLellan Government and the development of our offshore. It was not just to be able to find hydrocarbons and the benefits of the royalty agreement, it was what expertise can we build, and rather than relying upon companies coming from outside who had that expertise, only to come here and take advantage of that opportunity, there was staff specifically designated to try to work with the community college system and work with our companies to say you need to get this expertise - take advantage of the opportunity to learn what the offshore needs, what can your company provide so that not only will it help you with potential future projects, but would also allow you to look at other jurisdictions and bring that expertise to it.

 

            That's the same approach we're going with tidal. We want to learn from this. We want some expertise to come from this and we want our communities to be able to benefit because - I said it in my remarks and I think it's safe to say again - the world is watching Nova Scotia, all over the world, to see can we do this - can we harness those powerful tides and turn that into a reliable source of electricity?

 

            I think all Nova Scotians are hoping that we are successful in that and not only will it be a benefit to our province, but for our companies here. We want to make sure that they are part of this so that they can go out - whether it be France, whether it be other, many of the jurisdictions which I mentioned in my comments are talking to us about this - and be able to go sell that expertise based on the Nova Scotia model.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: I appreciate those comments. I see tidal energy as a massive opportunity for this province and I certainly hope that we're successful in that. I also see some other opportunities for this province, but we can discuss those a bit later at another time.

 

            I want to talk a little bit about power rates. In November 2014, former Minister Younger wrote an op-ed. I don't want to attribute these comments in any way, but I want to read these comments and I want to ask you a couple of questions about them. At the time, Mr. Younger said: "In the next year, the government will bring in legislation that will better protect ratepayers by changing the relationship between Nova Scotia Power and the Utility and Review Board. It is our goal to ensure more affordable rates and greater accountability on bills."

 

            The thought at that time that the government would bring in legislation that will better protect ratepayers by changing the relationship between Nova Scotia Power and the URB, I remember that kind of got my attention at that time. So my question for you would be, is it a goal of yours to change the relationship between the URB and maybe make it so the URB will no longer have a role in setting rates - would that be one of your goals now as minister?

 

            MR. SAMSON: There will always be a role for the Utility Review Board in setting power rates in our province. I don't think we ever want to go to the day where the government of the day gets to decide what power rates will be and the dangers that would come with that.

 

So there will always be a role for the board, but as part of the electricity review that we've been undertaking and the messages that we have told Nova Scotians - we've heard from Nova Scotians that they want better accountability from Nova Scotia Power, they want to see some performance guarantees, and they want to see the rates being affordable, being long-term, sustainable, and predictable. That is all part of the electricity review that we are undertaking. As I've mentioned a number of times, that will be part of the legislation that we'll be bringing in in the Fall.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: The other phrase that kind of jumped off the page at me when I read that was that it was the goal of Minister Younger to ensure more affordable rates. Sometimes different phrases mean different things to different people. When I see the phrase "more affordable rates," to me that means rates will go down. I just wonder, can the minister comment on how he would interpret the comments of somebody saying that they were searching for more affordable rates?

 

            MR. SAMSON: What we heard from Nova Scotians as part of the electricity review is that they want to see long-term stable rates - the question being, what does that mean? What we've heard from the review is that they want to see rates keeping in line with inflation. So on the side of your earlier point of being more affordable and your conclusion that that meant cheaper - by opening up the marketplace and by allowing competition, market forces will make that determination. Independent power producers will be in a position to offer rates to Nova Scotians and they will be in the position to determine - will those rates be lower? Will they be the same? Will they be higher? Market forces will determine that.

 

            The message we heard loud and clear, and which was part of our platform going in, is that Nova Scotians want a choice. We believe that with our legislation and with the work being done by the Utility and Review Board that the environment is being established to allow for that choice to take place. But that will be market-driven; it will not be government-driven - it will be up to private industry. They basically asked us - give us the opportunity; allow us the ability to be able to go and sell our product to Nova Scotians directly without having to go through Nova Scotia Power. That is what we have done with our legislation.

 

            You may have missed it earlier, but we do anticipate by next year that independent producers will be in a position to be able to sell their electricity directly. What the rate will be, market forces will determine that as to whether they are less, whether they are the same, or as I mentioned to our colleague, the member for Chester-St. Margaret's, in some cases it may even be slightly higher. How they will market their product is yet to be determined. Will they be marketing it to say we have a turbine in your community, if you buy from us you know that you're getting this from this turbine and it is renewable energy, you see it every day, it's clean, but you may have to pay a couple of extra cents more on your rate to have that clean power? That will be completely left to the independent producers as to how they want to market it, what rate they will charge, and how their packages will be put together.

 

            Earlier we spoke on the question of reliability and ensuring that whether it's wind or solar power there isn't any interruption in the power source and that's all part of what the Utility and Review Board is looking at as to whether as a customer you'll be able to have split packages - one from an independent producer, one from Nova Scotia Power, or whether the independent producers will be able to make a package within their own company using Nova Scotia Power supplies as well when they're trying to sell their product to their customers. That's all to be determined through the board. Again, we expect by next year the framework will have been put in place to allow for independent producers to be selling directly to Nova Scotia customers.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: I appreciate that answer. In terms of opening up the market, I did catch in the opening comments - I think you used the phrase "renewal to retail" for 2016. So do you have a sense of how many customers would actually be buying from somebody other than Nova Scotia Power in - I don't even want to hold you to 2016 - maybe 2017, after this? Do you have any sense of what the uptake might be on sourcing power from somebody other than Nova Scotia Power?

 

            MR. SAMSON: There isn't a specific target that has been set so there is no specific number. This really was Nova Scotians telling us they want choice. We had independent producers telling us let us sell direct. We had to create the environment to allow that to happen and when we passed the legislation in December 2013 that set that process in place. They'll have to look at the work being done by the Utility and Review Board in establishing what the rates should be - some of the transmission rates that will be expected to be paid in light of Nova Scotia Power's investments in the grid over the years. At that point they'll have to determine what price they're prepared to put out to their customers in trying to attract them.

 

            We've created the framework, and we've created the opportunity. It is the private marketplace that will determine exactly what will be offered and how many Nova Scotians will be interested in purchasing it directly from renewable energy producers. So there is no specific number. We haven't set a magic goal or anything like that. It really is the competitive marketplace that's going to make that determination.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Consumers behave however they behave for reasons oftentimes unknown to us. If I knew exactly how consumers behaved I probably would have stayed in business longer, but certainly most consumers make decisions based on price. I'm just wondering if you can comment on - the market will be open, there will be other places you can buy power, and you can buy from Nova Scotia Power or independent producers.

 

            My question is: given that renewable is generally more expensive, it just seems to me that it would be very hard for a new entrant in the market - an independent producer, most likely a producer of renewable energy - to compete with Nova Scotia Power in terms of price, I just wonder, can the minister offer any comments on whether there is an expectation within the department that a new independent producer would be able to come on the market in 2016 and compete with Nova Scotia Power in terms of price?

 

            MR. SAMSON: It's a very valid question and I put that question myself to one of the companies in basically the same lines as what you're asking here, that under COMFIT you're getting a set price for your power, which is clearly much higher than what Nova Scotia Power is able to provide by burning coal. My question was, how are you going to get your rates down to a competitive level with Nova Scotia Power when right now you're getting this guaranteed rate set by the Utility and Review Board under COMFIT? Basically the answer was we will either do longer term financing and we will look at other options as to how we are doing our business model, but our whole goal is to be able to compete.

 

            As I mentioned earlier, this goes back to the electricity marketplace governance study that was done in 2005 which identified under Recommendation 51 that the independent power producers were saying to - it was Professor Fournier who did the 2005 study and in it they were saying we want the ability to sell direct. So it was the industry itself that was asking for this, and it was the burden on government to try to make this happen.

 

            So that started in 2005. Unfortunately, it wasn't acted upon, that actual recommendation, until we brought in our legislation in the Fall of 2013. So it was the industry itself that has asked for this. This has not been the department, either under this government or former governments that just came up with the idea that hey, doesn't this sound great? It's the industry itself that has basically been pushing for this. They feel they can be competitive.

 

How are they going to get there? That's a question probably best put to them, but they clearly understand that the pressure on them will be to be able to offer a competitive rate and they'll have to build their business model and their business case around being competitive with what Nova Scotia Power offers or other producers may be putting on the marketplace.

 

            We did discuss briefly, and more at length before, as to is there a market there amongst Nova Scotians that they are prepared to pay a premium for their electricity, knowing that it's renewable, knowing that's green, knowing that it's sustainable, knowing that it's reducing our greenhouse gas emissions and everything else. That's all part of the package that will have to be considered but, again, just to be clear, it is the independent power producers who have asked to be given this opportunity. They are the ones pushing for it, they are the ones who believe they can be competitive, and they can build a business model around that. We're happy to say that the burden is on private industry in this regard, it is not on government or any cost to government. We just had to establish the regulatory framework to give them this opportunity.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: It's very interesting to hear you say that. I find that very encouraging, I'll be honest. With that being said, do you expect that these new producers on the market might actually also have the - not just to get down to Nova Scotia Power but would they force Nova Scotia Power's rates lower just as part of that competition, or is it going to be a constant struggle - Nova Scotia Power's rates are going to be there and everyone is going to be coming down as opposed to driving everything down? I don't know if the department has thought much about the longer-term impact of rates overall.

 

            MR. SAMSON: We certainly anticipate that by having the renewable to retail being put in place that it will put a burden on Nova Scotia Power to sharpen their pencils and ensure when they are going to the Utility and Review Board and asking for a rate to be set, that they are going to try to have the most competitive rate possible.

 

            On top of that, as part of our electricity review, which we'll be bringing in legislation in the Fall, we are going to be looking to establish the parameters there to meet Nova Scotians' demand for long-term, stable, predictable rates going forward. I just want to make it clear that we're not sitting back thinking that renewable to retail is the answer - there's a much broader package that we'll be bringing forward in the Fall. That is one element of it that the industry has asked for, we will have much more significant details as part of our plan going forward that will be presented in the Fall.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: So the electricity review will lead to legislation on the table in the Fall. The review itself, is that something that will be tabled in the House for people to look at?

 

            MR. SAMSON: As part of the review, and in my comments I spoke about the significant amount of feedback which we did receive. What we did earlier this winter - I don't have a specific date - we collected and summarized what we heard and then we put that back out to Nova Scotians to say here is the feedback we've received, and we provided 30 days for them to be able to react again.

 

            Based on what we heard, it's my understanding that your caucus has provided some comments on that to the department, which I assure you will be taken into consideration as part of our final package. What I can tell you is that before the House rises this Spring, I will be tabling the final report based on what we heard, the feedback - we went back asking for Nova Scotians and then the final report. That report will then be taken and put as part of our legislative package this Fall.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: That's good. That will be before the House rises. So just to clarify, that will be within the next week then, will it?

 

            There were some complaints that made it into the media about the procurement processes - Efficiency Nova Scotia. I wonder if those complaints made it to the minister's desk and if he can provide any kind of feedback on the status of those - review of those - complaints or his thoughts on that whole situation.

 

            MR. SAMSON: What I can tell you is that I did have a meeting with representatives from two different companies that did express some concerns with Efficiency Nova Scotia. Following that, we had indicated to the company that while we would have some discussions relating to their concerns with Efficiency Nova Scotia, we encourage them to bring their concerns to the Utility and Review Board, which is the regulator of Efficiency Nova Scotia.

 

            It is my understanding that at least one of the companies also met with our Premier. Following that meeting, the Premier has asked the deputy minister, sitting to my right, to look into the matter. That is ongoing and I would suspect that once that is complete, we'll be in a position to be able to share with you our findings.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: I was going to ask a question about the regulation of gasoline - is that something that falls under one of the minister's portfolios?

 

            MR. SAMSON: Thank you for having concerns for how many responsibilities I have, I am happy to say that is not one. I'm not sure, the resolutions - I know on my sheet it shows the resolution for the Utility and Review Board, but just to make it clear, I'm no longer responsible for the Utility and Review Board either. Minister Whalen, our Minister of Finance and Treasury Board, has that responsibility, so that's no longer under my purview and I'm happy to report that I'm not responsible for gas regulation.

 

            Just on a side note, in light of the hour and everything else, when I did take over responsibilities for the Department of Energy back in December, part of that - Part 1 of the Gaming Control Act, and when I went home that weekend to play hockey in my gentlemen's hockey league, one of the questions they asked was, what does that mean, having Part 1 of the Gaming Control Act? I said, well, I now get to pick the Lotto Max numbers on Friday nights. (Laughter) I'd like to say they laughed, but instead they were all racing in their heads as to how much money they would have to spend to convince me to pick their numbers.

 

So before the end of the night I did clarify with them, so that they wouldn't go home and repeat, that I don't actually get to pick the Lotto Max numbers or any other numbers run by our lottery commissions for that matter.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Since you brought up Part 1 of the Gaming Control Act - I'm sure I probably would have fallen for your assessment of what you're responsible for there, because I've never figured out the Part 1 and the Part 2 either. I do know that something happened this year with the responsible gaming where that TechLink company - is that under Part I, so the VLT revenue would be under that? I can't put my finger on it right now, but the minister may know where it is.

 

            I did notice at one point that the province had projected an increase in the VLT revenue for the coming year. I wonder if maybe the minister could offer some comments if there may be any kind of link between the discontinuance of the, let's call it the gaming monitoring, the My-Play - is there any link between the discontinuance of the My-Play and the fact that the province was projecting an increase in VLT revenue?

 

            MR. SAMSON: There's quite a lengthy history when it comes to the My-Play system and the parent company of that, which was TechLink. This goes back quite a few years when it was decided that the My-Play system would be brought in as an effort to help control problem gambling with VLTs. The amount of investment by Nova Scotians in the My-Play system leading up to its implementation was approximately $19.5 million. The ongoing cost to the province with the My-Play system was approximately $4.5 million.

 

            An analysis was done of the My-Play system and it became very clear that it was not having its intended effect in that the safeguards put in there were actually not stopping problem gambling. What it did do by making it mandatory to use a card system is that it eliminated in many ways recreational gamblers. Now I'll give you the example - who is a recreational gambler? When I go to, as many elected officials would, go to Legion events, for example, the big Legion events are Remembrance Day, installation of officers, and they may have a sports night. Some may have more events, but for the most part let's say it's three to four major events as year - and sometimes they have their executive meetings as well, which could be counted in.

 

            What I was hearing from a number of the veterans was I used to enjoy coming to the Legion event and after the event was done I used to like walking over in the lounge and putting $20 in a VLT, putting that in and then seeing how my luck was going . . .

 

AN HON. MEMBER: Play until it's gone.

 

MR. SAMSON: And play until it's gone, basically, or walk away with a prize - that was the other option.

 

            Basically what I was hearing anecdotally, which I'm sure other members were hearing as well, is that the person who used to drop $20 or $40 in on occasion was not interested in registering for a card and having to go through the My-Play process, so we saw a drop in revenue as a result of that - not we, but another government, that the revenue actually went down by approximately $27.3 million when the My-Play system was put in.

 

            Now on the flip side the question was: was it helping problem gamblers? The analysis that was done made it clear that it wasn't. So here we were paying for a system that was not addressing problem gambling and was reducing revenues, especially from the recreational gamblers who were using the VLT system.

 

            The decision was made by my predecessor, with the support of our government, to terminate the My-Play contract. That was terminated in early September 2014. When it was terminated, it was anticipated that there would be a bump in revenues because the recreational gamblers were going to come back. I know the media has asked me to explain why we are showing more revenue. It is because the recreational gamblers have started to play again.

 

            Now we expect at some point that there will be a plateau and that this isn't going to be a continual increase, but it clearly was a technology that was not meeting the intended purpose, and it was costing Nova Scotian taxpayers significant investment on a yearly basis; it was leading to a drop in revenue. As a result, the decision was made to terminate that contract which is why you've seen, in the estimate to estimate, that there is a predicted increase in VLT revenue.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Thank you for that explanation; that makes sense to me, so I appreciate it. I'm done with my questioning so I really appreciate the minister's time and answers tonight. I'm going to pass to my colleague, the member for Argyle-Barrington.

 

            MR. SAMSON: May I just say something more? The other thing I should add is that I also met with the Lounge Owners Association of Nova Scotia - three gentlemen, a lot of experience in that - they certainly saw the benefits of removing the My-Play system. They clearly saw the frustration it was for the recreational gambler and they as well saw loss of revenue in their establishments.

 

I think one of them, his statement was: if nothing else, your government can at least say it did one thing right. I'm not sure how much of an endorsement that was, but I can tell you I marked it down just in case that would be seen. I can tell you from their perspective, as the ones who do operate a number of the VLTs on behalf of the Province of Nova Scotia, they certainly saw the benefits of terminating the My-Play contract.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Argyle-Barrington.

 

            HON. CHRISTOPHER D'ENTREMONT: J'aimerais peut-être poser quelques questions à propos des Affaires acadiennes et plutôt peut-être des questions plus générales. On a vu vraiment le bureau des Affaires acadiennes être caché dans Communautés, Culture Patrimoine. On l'a vraiment vu pendant je pense le denier gouvernement un vrai changement du focus de l'office. Donc, je te pose une question, qu'est-ce qui est ta vision pour le bureau des Affaires acadiennes pendant la prochaine année?

 

            MR. SAMSON: C'est une excellente question. Je sais que le député de Argyle-Barrington, depuis 2003, est l'ancien ministre du bureau des Affaires acadiennes. Je suis sûr qu'il avait les même inquiétudes que moi j'avais et tous les autre membres du communauté acadien, soit les membres élus ou les autres membres, quand la décision a été fait par l'ancien gouvernement de prendre des bureaux qui étaient indépendants - que ça soit le bureau des Affaires acadiennes, que ça soit le bureau des Affaires africaines, ou que ça soit le bureau des Affaires gaéliques - et les mettre tous sous le toit du nouveau département des Communautés, de la Culture et du Patrimoine.

 

            Autant que ça a été fait, on a posé les même questions, qu'on avait un système où on avait un ministre responsable des Communautés, de la Culture et du Patrimoine, et là, sous ça, on avait un ministre responsable des Affaires acadiennes, un ministre responsable des Affaires africaines, et un ministre responsable des Affaires gaéliques. On a toujours questionné est-ce que c'est un système qui fonctionnait bien, non pas juste pour les communautés acadiennes mais pour les autres communautés qui ont étaient impactées par ces changes, par l'indépendance des bureaux.

 

            Je dis au membre que maintenant que nous sommes au gouvernement et avec ce système-ci, c'est un système qui n'est pas parfait, sans question, parce que l'administration de chacun de ces ministères-là, les responsabilités, tombe sous le ministre Ince et la sous-ministre, qui est responsable des Communautés, de la Culture et du Patrimoine. Alors, c'est une situation qui est un peu drôle, parce que pendant que je suis moi-même ministre qui est responsable, s'il y a des demandes pour des bourses ou pour d'argent pour investir dans certains groupes ou certaines personnes, la demande vient à moi comme ministre, mais à la fin de la journée, l'administration des fonds vient du ministre Ince et de la sous-ministre.

 

            Alors, c'est une question que, je peux dire, et je pense que je l'ai déjà dit au membre et je parlais de la Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse, c'est vraiment de regarder à la question de pas juste où le bureau se trouve dans le ministère mais en même temps, est-ce que c'est le temps de renouveler le mandat des Affaires acadiennes. Est-ce que le bureau des Affaires acadiennes maintenant est en train de fournir la communauté acadienne avec les meilleur services possible? Ça je pense est une question qu'on doit adresser. Ce n'est pas une critique, c'est juste une question de quand est la dernière fois que nous avons été à la communauté acadienne pour leur demander qu'est-ce que vous voulez du bureau des Affaires acadiennes? Que pensez-vous est leur mandat? Quels services attendez-vous de venir du bureau des Affaires acadiennes?

 

            Comme mon collègue le sait bien comme ancien ministre, c'est que c'est un des seuls bureaux où il y a un montant assez élevé qui vient du fédéral. Au nom fédéral, c'est au-dessus de deux millions qui vient au bureau et puis c'est ça qui assiste à payer pour plusieurs des services du bureau des Affaires acadiennes.

 

            Mais, selon moi, me demander qu'est-ce que j'en pense. Ç moi, que je regarde, et je pense que j'ai peut-être partagé cette histoire ici déjà et ce point de vu. Mais, si on regarde, par exemple, au Conseil scolaire acadien provincial et j'ai beaucoup de respect pour le surintendant, Darrell Samson. Je le connais bien. Mais même, ce n'est pas à cause que je le connais bien mais j'ai vu le succès que Darrell Samson a eu à cause du fait que, comme surintendant, il a été passer je ne sais pas combien de visites qu'il a fait à Ottawa pour aller rencontrer Patrimoine canadien et avoir des rendezous avec le Commissariat aux langues officielles et puis, le succès qu'il a pu remporter aux communautés acadiennes spécialement avec nos écoles, le fait que nos écoles sont pas juste des écoles standards mais, dans le Conseil scolaire acadien provincial, il y a des centres pour la communauté, il y a des centres extra avec les services qui sont là pour les élèves.

 

            Je regarde, par exemple, vendredi dernier, j'ai participé à l'ouverture du nouveau centre iFit à l'École Beau-Port. Il y a eu des investissements qui ont été faits par Patrimoine canadien par l'APECA, par notre gouvernement, pour le centre santé qui est là. Mais, au même temps, il y a aussi eu une expansion de l'école qui se trouve le centre qui est là en même temps pour le centre iFit pour la santé mais aussi un centre pour la petite enfance qui a été mise à l'école. Ceux-ci sont des investissements qui n'auraient pas pu être possibles sans l'appui d'Ottawa, sans une personne comme Darrell Samson qui a été à Ottawa se battre pour ces causes, et puis ça été, on voit ces investissements qui ont venus dans tous les régions du CSAP, dans les écoles, dans chaque coin de notre province.

 

            La question que je me pose: si Darrell Samson avait resté à son bureau à la butte, ou bien ici à Halifax, est-ce qu'il aurait eu le même succès avec le gouvernement fédéral s'il avait resté ici à la province? Et puis, je pense que mon collègue a la même réaction que moi, la réponse est non. Alors, à moi, la question est avec le bureau des Affaires acadiennes, y'a-t-il un plus grand rôle à jouer avec le gouvernement fédéral pour voir qu'est-ce qu'il y a là comme des programmes que nos communautés acadiennes, soit c'est les écoles, soit c'est les centres communautaires, soit c'est les groupes acadiens, soi c'est les aîné, soit c'est les jeunes - tout le monde entre ça? Est-ce qu'il y a un meilleur rôle pour le bureau à jouer pour s'assurer qu'on profite des programmes, des fonds qui existent au niveau fédéral pour profiter notre province? Ça c'est une discussion que je pense que c'est maintenant le temps d'avoir.

 

            Puis, sans question, nous avons mon collègue d'Argyle-Barrington, qui est ancien ministre; nous avons notre collègue aussi de Sackville-Cobequid qui est ancien ministre des Affaires acadiennes. Alors, il y a une connaissance là. Il y a une connaissance des défis, et je pense que c'est une discussion que comme ministre je veux voire commencer; et, certainement, je veux entendre de mes collègues pour voir quels avis et quelles suggestions ils ont, pas juste personnellement mais aussi de leur communauté qu'ils représentent.

 

            MR. D'ENTREMONT: Merci beaucoup et merci beaucoup au ministre pour cette réponse-là parce que j'ai trouvé dans les dernières quelques années qu'il n'a avait pas beaucoup de mandat pour le bureau des Affaires acadiennes. C'était plutôt pour travailler avec les ministères une petite bureaucratie pour faire certain qu'on avait des services en français dans chaque ministère.

 

            Mais autre que ça, quoi ça faisait? Pour avoir d'l'argent pour d'autres projets dans la province comme le centre communautaire de Par-en-bas que, moi, j'ai travaillé dur dessus avec M. Samson, avec la communauté, mais avec le gouvernement fédéral au même temps. Pour attraper des poissons, on a besoin de faire la pêche. Je ne pense pas que le dernier gouvernement a vraiment donné le mandat au bureau de faire ce travail-là. Donc, si je peux t'aider avec ça, je vais le faire. On a besoin de faire plus de travail pour notre communauté. La dualité linguistique en Nouvelle-Écosse est quelque chose d'important qu'on perd à tous les jours.

 

Ce n'est pas seulement l'éducation, il est entendu, qu'on a le CSAP pour travailler avec nos jeunes, mais c'est aussi donner quelque chose d'autre qu'ils peuvent faire après l'école, qu'ils peuvent faire dans leur communauté. Si qu'on n'a pas quelque chose là pour eux, ils ne vont pas retenir leur langue, ils ne vont pas retenir leur culture. Ils vont vraiment perdre tout ça. Donc, c'est ça que je pense que le mandat du bureau a besoin de regarder de près. De perdre 2,7 équivalents temps plein (ETP), vraiment, je ne peux pas te poser une question quand ça vient vraiment au budget des Affaires acadiennes parce que ça c'est Tony Ince, mais vraiment, pour toi, c'est la vision et qu'est-ce qu'on va faire avec parce qu'on a besoin de faire quelque chose de plus concrète pour la communauté acadienne.

 

            MR. SAMSON: Puis, tu lèves un bon point parce que à la fin de la journée si qu'on ne fait pas un renouvellement du mandat, nous avons vu une réduction qui a eu lieu dans le bureau. Malheureusement, c'est des réductions qui ont eu lieu à travers du gouvernement et c'était une des positions, il y avait personne là. L'autre c'était à la réception. Malheureusement, il y a une coupure là. Mais, si qu'on s'attend à avoir le nombre de personnes qui sont là, il faut faire sûr que le mandat reflète les personnes sont là. Et puis, si on leur donne un nouveau mandat qu'à la fin de la journée qu'on va avoir plus d'investissements d'Ottawa et du fédéral, là, à ce point-là, on est dans une meilleure position pour dire, bien, il nous faut plus de personnes, regardant le succès que nous avons eu à cause des efforts avec le nouveau mandat.

 

            Alors, je pense que c'est possible de regarder au nombre de personnes qui sont au bureau mais, en même temps, si qu'on demeure avec la position qui est là maintenant de juste faire l'administration des fonds qui est déjà là et pas plus, à ce point-là, ça devient un peu plus difficile de retenir les chiffres qui sont là. Mais je ne pense pas qu'il y ait un acadien dans la province qui ne pense pas que c'est le temps de faire un renouvellement du mandat et puis aussi poser la question où doit être placé le bureau?

 

            L'autre chose à laquelle je pense que mon collègue est au courant, juste au cas où il ne sait pas, avec la décision de fermer le bureau du développement économique, la responsabilité pour le Conseil de développement économique de la Nouvelle-Écosse maintenant tombe sous le ministre Ince avec Communautés, Culture et Patrimoine. Alors, je pense que en même temps c'est peut-être une occasion de regarder est-ce qu'il y a une possibilité d'avoir ces deux bureaux peut-être travailler plus proche ensemble et peut-être se séparer d'où ils se trouvent.

 

            Alors, moi je vois ça comme peut-être une route pour nous à regarder de justifier pourquoi ensemble on pourrait les sortir d'où ils se trouvent et les laisser indépendant à partir de ce moment-là avec un ministre qui est responsable pour tous les aspects de leur travail. Alors, je tire juste ça comme une idée, mais je pense que ça c'est quelque chose qu'on peut regarder comme possibilité de les avoir parce qu'à la fin de la journée leurs mandats sont très proches. Ce sont des mandats qui travaillent bien ensemble et, alors, je pense que c'est quelque chose qu'on doit regarder.

 

            MR. D'ENTREMONT: Non. Simplement, merci pour ces réponses-là et puis ça sa nous fini avec nos questions pour le ministre Samson. Donc que, je te remercie, et je donne le reste du temps au Nouveau Parti démocratique.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Merci beaucoup.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: You get the rest of the time.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: We have about 10 minutes left.

 

            The honourable member for Chester-St. Margaret's.

 

            HON. DENISE PETERSON-RAFUSE: I want to thank my colleagues for allowing me to have the last word. That's why I give them Kraft caramels. My husband would say, yes, she has to have the last word.

 

            Minister, I just want to follow up quickly on a couple of items. I do want to respond to your comments about Hydro-Québec and the concerns that your colleagues and yourself had when in Opposition. I do want to clarify the fact that being a former Cabinet Minister and the discussions that we had, that we did understand and realize that Hydro-Québec was not going to be a solution on the table in terms of the difficulties and challenges that have occurred in the past. It had nothing to do with trying to make out that they were the big, bad guys. I guess I would respectfully say that would be what, in Opposition, was taking place with Nova Scotia Power to look like the big, bad guys.

 

            I just want to assure you, and I do understand your perspective when you're saying that you were not confident in the fact that we had analyzed that, but we certainly did. The same conversations you are having with us tonight would be the same conversations we had when we were in government in terms of the importance of having opportunities for electricity, and that's why Premier Dexter really was passionate about the Maritime Link and Muskrat Falls. I think we will all see in the not too distant future that that is an important legacy he will leave for the people of Nova Scotia in terms of having that energy source.

 

            In saying that I do want to ask you about another strategy that while in government we initiated, which was really important, and that was the Sustainable Transportation Strategy. I do believe there was a cut to that program - can you tell me what that amount would have been?

 

            MR. SAMSON: To answer your question, it was a $2 million envelope that was available under the sustainable transportation and there was a reduction of $600,000 from that fund as part of the overall reductions that were asked of all departments by our government.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I know that in your platform there were promises made to invest in sustainable transportation, and I do realize that you are looking at areas in terms of where there can be some cost savings. I'm just wondering, what do you feel the ramifications will be with regard to having such a large amount of dollars cut? This was one of those strategies and programs that people, especially in rural Nova Scotia, could really grasp onto and understand.

 

            Part of what we were doing, and I think you are continuing is to create active living lanes when we're investing so much money in paving projects and how important that is with the active living lanes and also, because we have so many coastal areas in the province, that people certainly are more encouraged to use the active living lanes by driving around our beautiful province. That also is, for many tourists, a very important part of their visit here.

 

            I know the other issues in our rural communities are transportation issues and how we want to encourage people to look at alternatives and come up with other programs that will certainly help us because of the high cost of oil and gas, and encourage people to carpool and use other means of transportation, and just concern with the fact that we have such a cut in that. I just want to ask the minister: What do you think that cut will do to that program?

 

            MR. SAMSON: I should point out that we did put $3 million into community transit, which was a commitment we made in our platform. As well, the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal continues to make investments into active transportation lanes and encouraging the abilities with some of the road projects that they're doing to allow access for other modes of transportation.

 

            One of the things we undertook when we came into government was a program review, which I'm sure you're very familiar with, Madam Chairman. As part of that review one of the things we discovered is that we had a number of departments funding basically the same type of projects.

 

            On the trail front it was discovered that there were monies available for trail development through Economic Development, Natural Resources, Energy, and Health and Wellness. The question became: do we need to have four different departments funding basically the same initiative, or do we need to be smarter as to which department should be responsible for that and maximizing the funds that we have available to Nova Scotians for those types of initiatives?

 

            So when one talks about reductions being made in this fund, keep in mind that there are other funds to other departments as well that are available to community organizations and municipalities when it comes to establishing transportation avenues and corridors outside of your traditional roads. Again, when you're looking at the fiscal envelope of the province and trying to decide where monies can be identified, it's never an easy process, but in light of some of the investments we've made, and will continue to make, we believe that we will still be able to meet the needs of Nova Scotian communities that approach us seeking support for sustainable transportation.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I'd like to have the opportunity to thank the minister very much and for the staff. I know how much work is involved in this process and the dedication of the staff, and yourself as minister. I actually really enjoyed this conversation tonight. Thank you very much.

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Minister Samson, you have about a minute and a half.

 

MR. SAMSON: I think it's safe to say it went much smoother this year than last year's estimates, which I think is better for everyone involved. In fact, when the honourable member for Chester-St. Margaret's spoke earlier about former Premier Dexter's legacy on the Maritime Link, I looked over at my deputy, and I said the old me would respond for about an hour on that remark, but the new me is going to let that go and not say a word about it. So other than one brief lengthy answer, we've certainly done our best tonight to provide the information.

 

            I want to thank my critics and colleagues for the questions. They've provided very good questions and I hope we've provided the information to them that they had asked for. If there is ever a request for more information, we are happy to do that.

 

            As I mentioned to the member for Chester-St. Margaret's - and I will to the member for Pictou East - if there is ever a request to get a briefing from our department as to what we do and the various responsibilities we have, we're more than happy to do that as well.

(Interruption) I've said it publicly, so that counts.

 

Again, I want to thank my whole staff, senior staff, and everyone else. Merci, Madame le Président.

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E6 stand?

 

Resolution E6 stands.

 

Resolution E19 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $6,818,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of Communications Nova Scotia, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E19 carry?

 

The resolution is carried.

 

            We are adjourned.

 

            [The subcommittee adjourned at 9:54 p.m.]