HALIFAX, FRIDAY, APRIL 10, 2015

 

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY

 

11:50 A.M.

 

CHAIRMAN

Ms. Patricia Arab

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Good morning everybody, I'd like to welcome you to the Committee on Estimates. We have the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage with us today. My name is Patricia Arab, I am the MLA for Fairview-Clayton Park and I'll be the chairman of this subcommittee.

 

            Resolution E3 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $61,837,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

            Minister, I'll get you to introduce yourself and introduce the staff you have with you.

 

            HON. TONY INCE: Thank you, Madam Chairman. I'm pleased to be here once again to tell you about my Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage. But as you said, before I proceed I'd like to introduce the members of my senior team who are joining me today. On my right and left are Deputy Minister Kelliann Dean and Rebecca Doucett, Finance Services Manager. Behind me are: David Ross, Executive Director of Corporate Strategy and Operations; Bruce Hennebury, Senior Director; and Dan Davis, Director of Communications.

 

            Madam Chairman, Nova Scotians are proud of their cultural identity and their community's history that tell us who we are and where we come from as a people. The Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage is all about respecting culture, preserving culture, celebrating culture and building an economy on culture.

 

As minister of this department, I have the responsibility for these three fundamental areas: communities, culture and heritage. It's an important responsibility and one I'm proud to help lead and one I don't take lightly because I believe our communities, culture and heritage form the basis of a strong, economically sound and vibrant society.

 

            Madam Chairman, government continues to be committed to culture and has maintained stable funding for the programs and services in my department that support Nova Scotia's culture sector. The department's budget has been increased from $61.3 million to $61.8 million. This investment clearly demonstrates the province views culture as an important component of Nova Scotia's economic and social sustainability.

 

            As part of the 2015-16 Budget, three programs are being transferred to CCH, including Regional Economic Development Grants, the Community Access Program and operational support for Le Conseil de développement économique de la Nouvelle-Écosse. In addition, ongoing operational funding will be provided for the Black Loyalists Heritage Centre, Nova Scotia's newest provincial museum, opening this June. I should note that I have visited the new centre and it is an incredible museum. I am very enthusiastic about welcoming the centre to the Nova Scotia museum family.

 

            As part of the 2015-16 budget process, government has also reaffirmed its intent to develop a provincial culture strategy in order to explore ways to grow the creative economy and ensure the provincial social and economic goals are achieved. Working closely with the Creative Nova Scotia Leadership Council, Nova Scotia Business Inc., and culture stakeholders throughout the province, the consultation process will be launched in late spring. CCH also provides $12.5 million in direct culture and heritage development programming including $2.6 million for Arts Nova Scotia, $14 million for libraries, and $10 million in operational funding and programming including for museums and the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia.

 

This is an exciting time for culture in our province. We are blessed with many talented citizens who contribute to our culture sector and the economy. To that end, as I have already mentioned, at CCH we are working on a culture strategy for government. Nova Scotia's first culture strategy will help define government's role in supporting growth in the sector. Nova Scotia's culture sector is a broad, interconnected community that includes libraries, museums, heritage properties, cultural identities, languages, the arts, creative industries, and culture education. This is an exciting time for culture in Nova Scotia. Together with the province's cultural community we will identify ways government, communities, and citizens can work together to preserve and enhance our rich and diverse culture.

 

The department is developing a consultation plan that we expect to launch in the next two months. We will invite participants from Nova Scotians on what government should include in the culture strategy and we will start hosting consultations soon. The culture strategy will start off on a good footing now that some significant work has built an excellent foundation. This work continues to gather some important information. I'm particularly proud that Nova Scotia, in partnership with the federal government, led the way on this project. For the first time ever, Canadians will have reliable figures on the importance of culture and how it has affected our economy in Canada.

 

This economic data was released by Stats Canada a few months ago. It tells us how arts, culture, and heritage have a real impact on our economy. According to the Cultural Satellite Account, the Canadian Art Culture and Heritage sector represents about $47.8 billion annually which about 3.1 per cent of Canada's GDP. Because of this account we now have accurate ways to compare these things to other industries. The second phase of this project involves breaking down national numbers by province. This June, culture figures specific to Nova Scotia will be released. Again, this will allow us to pinpoint economically the importance of culture in our society.

 

Another important foundation piece is the culture index. This is a new research and policy tool that will provide critical insights into the social impact of culture in Nova Scotia. At the heart of it, the culture index is a survey instrument that measures participation, awareness, and the value for each of the seven domains within the culture sector; for example, one domain would be heritage and libraries. This innovative tool will give us a benchmark to determine how important culture is to Nova Scotia. This will help government and all Nova Scotians involved in the culture sector make evidence based decisions. In essence the data collected from the culture index this year, and many years to come, will give us baseline figures for measuring future progress and the effectiveness of our decisions.

 

Through Communities, Culture, and Heritage, government offers a variety of funding programs. These support artists in all disciplines, large and small art organizations, art in schools, and scholarships. In 2015/16 about $12.5 million dollars plus another $100,000 in regional economic development program and community access program funding will be available through various programs. For example, through Arts Nova Scotia, which is an independent body that oversees government funding directed to artists, quite a number of individuals and groups receive support. This allows them to continue to invest in their creative works thereby investing in Nova Scotia.

 

            We also offer peer adjudication funding opportunities in support of artistic works in cultural projects. Some of the programs available are Community Arts Councils/Artist-Run Centres Collaboration Programs, Community Arts and Culture Recognition Awards, Cultural and Youth Activities Programs, Established Artists Recognition Awards, Industry Growth Program, One-time Emerging Culture and Heritage Incentive Programs, and Operating Assistance to Cultural Organizations.

 

            Our cultural offices continue to work with government to provide significant contributions to their communities and the province. Again, this year the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs worked with community partners to coordinate African Heritage Month in February. The theme this year was social justice, over 175 events were held throughout the province and you know what I think I've attended just about all of them.

 

            This year we mark the beginning of the United Nations Declaration of the International Decade for people of African descent. For the next 10 years, people all over the world will be examining the decade's theme: recognition, justice, and development. I think it is evident from the strength of the African Nova Scotian community today that we will do our part. The achievements of African Canadians are generally not well known and that same goes for African Nova Scotians. That's one of the reasons why I believe African Heritage Month is so important, it gives us an opportunity to create awareness, to recognize the contributions of African Nova Scotians to our collective history.

 

            Since its inception, Gaelic Affairs has been working to assist Gaels in reclaiming their language and cultural identity. Gaelic Affairs works to assist Gaels in reclaiming their language and cultural identity. Later this month the Office of Gaelic Affairs will join the Gaelic community to launch May as Gaelic awareness month. Gaelic Awareness Month demonstrates how Gaels from across the province are gathering not only to learn from one another but to share common challenges and explore opportunities for further development and growth. Gaels, along with Nova Scotians, can play a part in reinvigorating our province, both socially and economically. The launch event is scheduled for Thursday, April 30^th in the afternoon at the Legislature. I hope you all will attend.

 

            Our province is home to a vibrant Acadian and Francophone community. Acadian Affairs helps government offer services in French in order to better serve this community. It provides services and programs to government departments and institutions to assist them in developing and delivering services in French. These services include translation, French language training, funding, policy and communication advice and the Bonjour Visual Identification Program.

 

            Acadian Affairs also supports the community through two programs it administers, which provide funding for cultural projects in Acadian and Francophone communities and for community organizations in Nova Scotia wishing to carry out exchanges or collaboration with organizations in Quebec. Nova Scotia's Acadian and Francophone community provides a strong contribution to the province's cultural identity. We see this is in our art, music, theatre and many other forms.

 

            I am very pleased that my department supports the work of Acadian Affairs as it works with stakeholder groups and partner organizations at provincial, national, as well as international levels.

 

            Another unit in my department supporting and partnering with our province's communities is Communities Nova Scotia. This year it coordinated the launch of our province's new February holiday - Nova Scotia's Heritage Day. This year we celebrated Viola Desmond and activities and events were held across the province. Museum staff in the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic, Natural History Museum and the Museum of Industry opened on the holiday offering free admission.

 

            The Nova Scotia Archives launched a virtual exhibit that features materials associated with Viola Desmond's historic court case. CCH will coordinated the launch of Heritage Day for the next seven years with honourees suggested by Nova Scotian students.

 

            One event that I was quite proud of was the Viola Desmond song contest. Partnering with Music Nova Scotia, we asked Nova Scotians to write a song that told the story of Ms. Desmond that celebrated her courage and social activism. We had about 200 entries. We were extremely pleased by that. The three finalists performed their songs in front of a packed crowd at Casino Nova Scotia in February. A young African Nova Scotian's spoken word rap artist, MAJE, was the winner. I tell you, there wasn't a dry eye in the house.

 

            Once again, we are asking our youngest citizens to help us with Heritage Day. We are engaging students in Primary to Grade 12 in designing a fitting symbol or banner of flag will represent the new holiday. Students can submit a design and a panel will choose one or more to use in designing the symbol. We will review the submissions in June and announce the winner or winners and unveil the banner in February 2016.

 

            Communities Nova Scotia also manages the Lieutenant Governor's Community Spirit Award for the Office of the Lieutenant Governor. We have strong, vibrant communities all over the province. We have communities doing great work, help each other and creating strong ties. Since 2008, close to 70 community nominations have been received and now 25 communities have been recognized. The award recognizes community and honours the civic pride and truly celebrates what it is to be Nova Scotian.

 

            The Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage is at the forefront of changing the economic landscape that is exploring and embracing the creative economy and looks at new and innovative ways to preserve heritage, celebrate culture and foster an environment of lifelong learning.

 

            Our archives, museums and library family are an integral part of this department and for Nova Scotia. They are important socially, economically in all regions of the province. We work with partners to enhance access to and interpretation of Nova Scotia's rich heritage. We do this through new exhibits, learning opportunities and outreach programs developed and sponsored by or done in collaboration with partners. This partnership is the driving force for building vibrant communities the value that many diverse cultures that make up the province's peoples.

 

            By working collaboratively with our partners, the province fosters vibrant and healthy communities that respect our past and influence our future. For example, through support for import, Nova Scotia archives initiatives such as historical vital statistics Web site that continuing digitalization of records, photos and artefacts and virtual exhibits show where Nova Scotians came from as a people. And going back to Heritage Day for a moment and this year's honoree Viola Desmond, important court documents related to her case are now digitalized and accessible to everyone. Prior to Heritage Day these documents have only been seen by a handful of researchers, maybe six in the past 65 years.

 

            I can tell you that this was very exciting for many people, especially African Nova Scotian communities and African Nova Scotian historians as well as historians from the broader communities. I even heard from a friend of mine who is a judge in Ontario; she was very excited about being able to access these documents online. That's just one very recent example of the tremendous important work done by the Nova Scotia Archives.

 

            Acadian Affairs is an excellent partner when it comes to making parts of our documented history available in French for the Acadian and Francophone communities. Through African Nova Scotian Affairs, African Heritage Month offers a tremendous opportunity for the archives and museums to be involved in helping Nova Scotians experience African Nova Scotian culture. I am pleased to say that the Black Loyalists Heritage Centre in Birchtown is the newest edition to the Nova Scotia Museum family.

 

            A new permanent exhibit chronicling the Black Loyalists journey will soon be fully installed. In the meantime the Black Loyalists Heritage Society is working with CCH staff to plan the building's grand opening in early June and I'm looking forward to this event. We are proud of the Black Loyalist Heritage Centre and we finally have a site that interprets the history and culture of African Nova Scotians and tells the story of the arrival of the Black Loyalists. The Black Loyalist Heritage Centre will be an excellent addition to Nova Scotia museums and speaks to the diversity of stories that make up the province's proud heritage. We believe this centre is important and we are dedicating incremental resources of $375,000 to support the centre. The Black Loyalist Heritage Centre is a wonderful place that fills a gap in the story that needs to be told in our province. More and more Nova Scotians are gaining an appreciation of the story of the Black Loyalist. Many Canadians and Americans are hearing the story for the first time. It's a story of hope that was met with great hardship and broken promises but it is also a story of strength and resilience and lasting legacies.

 

The story of the Black Loyalists is an important chapter in our history. For many African Nova Scotians in communities like Birchtown, Shelburne, Annapolis Royal, Cornwallis, Weymouth, Digby, Windsor, Preston, Sydney, Parrsboro, Halifax, Guysborough and more. The Black Loyalist experience is much more than a story, it is their family tree, their roots and the legacy of their ancestors. Nova Scotia is one of many contributors to the Black Loyalist Heritage Centre. It is a project that drew widespread support from different levels of government, the private sector and many individuals. We are proud to support a new centre and when it opens, I encourage everyone to visit.

 

From education to the economy and more, every Nova Scotian benefits from our public libraries. Our libraries house so many things - books, programs, technology. They are also a place for people. They offer a vital place for all ages to gather. Nova Scotia's artists use local libraries for inspiration, create and they use it for galleries. Families take advantage of many programs. You can access community health programs and computers through the community CAP site. New Nova Scotians take English as a Second Language class to help them learn about Nova Scotia and the communities.

 

Our libraries are winning awards and gaining international attention. The Pictou-Antigonish Regional Library worked hard with its partners in government and the local community to create the Antigonish Town and County Library; it recently was awarded the Great Places in Canada plaque from the Canadian Institute of Planners. The library is a great example of cross partnership community participation model and its dedication to helping build strong communities is to be commended. Of course the Halifax Central Library has been well recognized for its innovative design and it has already become a centrepiece of Halifax's downtown and is contributing to the economic and social fabric of our capital city.

 

            Through the Nova Scotia Provincial Library, we work with all nine regional library boards. This year we will support them with estimated annual operating grants totalling $14 million but we have heard from our partners that the current per capita based distribution for the annual operating grants, particularly in the area of rural population decline, is not sustainable. At their request, we formed a Library Funding Review Committee with representatives from my department, along with Finance and Treasury Board, Municipal Affairs, Council of Regional Librarians, the Library Board Association of Nova Scotia and municipal councils. The committee is tasked with developing a new model for library funding to ensure Nova Scotians continue to have equitable access to library services in their communities. I look forward to reviewing what they may come up with in determining the best approach for maintaining core library services for Nova Scotians.

 

Heritage properties are an important part of heritage, especially for municipalities. That's why we're proposing amendments that will improve the Heritage Property Act by streamlining the process for municipalities to make amendments to heritage properties. This spring, my department will consult with municipalities to ensure, from their perspective, that the proposed changes are positive. The proposed changes will not affect the level of protection for heritage properties in any way. I know that all members will agree our heritage properties are important pieces of Nova Scotia's culture and it's important to protect them.

 

In conclusion, like the One Nova Scotia report, I believe that Nova Scotians need to think creatively and work together to leverage the rich diversity and culture of the province. I look forward to working with my colleagues in the legislature and our cultural heritage and creative community partners in building a strong economic and vibrant, sustainable, creative communities. Thank you.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much Minister Ince. We're going start our questioning but just before we do, I want to remind our committee members that they are to address their questions through the Chair. Just for the purposes of Hansard, we don't have cameras in here so it just makes things a little bit easier, I know that that's difficult but if we could just, without interrupting the dialogue or the flow back and forth if we could remember to address through the Chair I'd really appreciate that.

 

We're going to start with the Progressive Conservative caucus and Ms. MacFarlane. You have one hour.

 

            MS. KARLA MACFARLANE: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. I will make eye contact just quickly to thank the minister for his opening remarks and all the work that has gone in from his department to prepare for today and I just want to thank him for everything.

 

            I'm going start right off with jobs in the cultural industry. I'm wondering, as the minister for CCH, how important does he feel that is to support and promote the telling key Nova Scotia stories that are culturally and historically significant to Nova Scotians?

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, it is very important. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the creative sector contributes greatly to our economic stability within the province. With that, I would say that it is very important and that we value the work of all those people within that sector but throughout the whole province and what they bring. It will enhance growth in those rural communities as well.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Speaking of growth and enhancing and having an impact in rural community I slightly have to disagree today on that because of what is going on with the Film Tax Credit. In fact, I have a company in my constituency called Bruce Productions who within the last 18 hours originally had five films that they were going to be producing in Pictou County this summer and within 18 hours have just been notified that two will not be happening. That is a huge impact in a rural area, especially where we just had a number of cuts within our closing of our visitor information center.

 

I'm wondering if perhaps you could name just a few recent of projects that you are aware of that contribute to telling the story of cultural and historic events in Nova Scotia, if you could just name a few to me right now.

 

            MR. INCE: I certainly but first of all I just want to state I'm keenly aware and sensitively aware that the changes in the Film and Tax Credit are worrying and affecting those in the film industry. That being said, the Black Loyalist Story was recently told and it went international in terms of jobs being created in the province, it also gave the opportunity for many people from the African Nova Scotia community to work within that sector, so it was a great story that was told.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I don't disagree, there are a lot of great stories to be told. The Book of Negros debuted on January 7^th, I think, and it's been something that we're all very proud of; really, a great film that makes all Nova Scotians proud. The international production began shooting in February of 2014 in Cape Town, South Africa and filming also took place in various locations in Nova Scotia. It was completed by, I believe, June 2014, and with that in mind I'm just wondering, what sort of government support do you believe it should have?

 

            MR. INCE: As I mentioned a little earlier the Black Loyalist Heritage Centre, which is a new museum, will also share and tell that story as well, and it is also creating jobs within a region as well through that museum.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: It has created jobs but with certainty we know that there are cuts in the film industry, as of the last 24 hours we're hearing it. I'm just wondering what you have to say to that.

 

            MR. INCE: First of all the tax credit is still in place; it hasn't been cut. As I've said I understand that it's difficult for the industry but it's also difficult for me to stay what the impact of those changes are and what they will do. I think people have to take a look at the changes as they apply to their own businesses and determine what I means for it means for their individual circumstances.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Well what we're hearing from businesses is that it has a huge colossal impact on jobs. There is going to be the elimination of many of jobs and concentrating mostly on my community with regards to this, and I am only a small community in Pictou West of 17,000 voting constituents, but I'm deeply concerned for the rest of the province as well. As we all know there is going to be many many cuts in this industry. If another province such as Ontario was competing with Nova Scotian to entice the producers and film companies to film there instead of Nova Scotia what would you do try to keep that filming here in Nova Scotia, what incentives would you suggest in order to keep that industry here and thriving.

 

            MR. INCE: What we're hearing from advisers in the Creative Nova Scotia Leadership Council and Arts Nova Scotia is that they are interesting in participating in consultations around the new fund and in working with NSBI to help the industry stay here, from what I understand.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I think we've heard loud and clear in the last week or so in the Legislature that this is certainly going to have an impact. I know we're in the Chamber the same hours and what I've heard loud and clear, and what I think everyone has heard, is that this is going to wipe out the film industry. It really does deeply concern me knowing that it has a great impact on your department and continuing to promote and provide incentives.

 

Let's just take for example This Hour Has 22 Minutes which has been recognized with lots of awards and I think 11 Canadian Comedy Awards actually. This Hour Has 22 Minutes is broadcast on the CBC Television Network, it is taped before a live audience at Studio 1 here in Halifax and it's been 1990/1993. I just want to know, do you support the continued filming of 22 Minutes here in Halifax because we are hearing that it's over?

 

            MR. INCE: Well first of all I just want to make one thing sort of clear or establish something. We're talking about an industry, a sector which includes film. There are many other parts of that sector which my department is moving forward and supporting. We have supported for a number of years since the creation of the department and it continues its support.

 

In terms of my personal opinions around what's happening with 22 Minutes and any of the filming, as I said earlier, I would encourage all people in the industry to take a look at the changes, take a look at what's happening and look at things and become an industry that works with government to help us move things forward.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: With all due respect, it is an industry that has been trying to work with government, a very young and creative industry. I agree there are lots of other parts in your department that revolves around the creative world - it's just not filmmakers, I get that. But believe me they will all be affected too. I guess so leading up to this question would be, what other parts of the sector create as many jobs as the film sector?

 

            MR. INCE: Well you know what? I would ask you, and pardon the pun, to stay tuned.

 

As I've said to you earlier, we're in the process of creating the cultural satellite account. That account will give us for the first time ever, a clearer understanding of the economic importance of the culture sector in the province and will provide precise, reliable information to help quantify the economic value of arts, culture, and heritage in the sector. There are currently, right now, no real numbers to quantify the value of culture in the sector. We are producing that.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I appreciate that but currently, right now, we are losing thousands of jobs. I'd like to return to the two examples provided: The Book of Negros and This Hour Has 22 Minutes. Do you realize that both of these productions use the Film Tax Credit to offset a portion of the cost of hiring skilled Nova Scotians to work here in Nova Scotia? That's what they use to keep our people here in Nova Scotia.

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, I am aware.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Are you aware that as a result of the cut and the support for job creation through the Nova Scotia filmmaking industry, that This Hour Has 22 Minutes will be forced to leave Nova Scotia?

 

            MR. INCE: Well as I've stated earlier, it is not a cut, the tax is still there.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I guess what I would like to know is how you feel about the fact that This Hour Has 22 Minutes, that has been here since 1993, successfully here, making us all very proud, will be forced to leave, forced to go Toronto?

 

            MR. INCE: I can't speak to the specific impacts on a particular company, I don't have that information.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: And had The Book of Negroes not had access to this credit, it is highly likely that they would have filmed somewhere else. They would have had to because the saving in labour costs helped them raise the capital investment, right? Very similar to Bruce Productions back in Pictou West who was going to start filming this June at Pictou Lodge. Do you believe that would have been a lost cultural opportunity for Nova Scotians in telling their own story? As the Minister of CCH, would you have supported that you had known that this credit actually would work?

 

            MR. INCE: I can't really speculate on what might have happened if the tax credit wasn't there. I can't speculate on any of that.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Having seen the social media campaigns as well as the pre-budget and post-budget media coverage of your government's cut of this film tax credit, I believe you know that the industry is very upset, they are in limbo and they are fighting for their existence, for their purpose here in Nova Scotia. They are feeling truly unworthy and undervalued here in Nova Scotia.

 

            I'm just wondering, are you aware of the human toll on this? For example, do you know that what is now over a 2,000-strong workforce of skilled, well-paying jobs could eventually fall to one-tenth of that number in the coming weeks and months? Your thoughts on that.

 

            MR. INCE: Well first of all let me state that I am encouraged by the creation of a $6 million Creative Economy Fund that has been placed in NSBI. NSBI is poised to work with those industries to help the businesses and the business side of that to work. I can't speak to that because I deal with cultural development, I don't deal with the business.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Do you know that this industry is a great gateway, actually, for attracting immigrant workers and keeping them working in Nova Scotia, associated with the Film Tax Credit? I'm wondering how you feel about that, especially relating it to the Ivany goals and what was recommended by Ray Ivany in promoting more immigrants to come to the province, including the film industry?

 

            MR. INCE: I am fully aware of how challenging and difficult this is going to be and is for the industry. All I can say and speak to is the fact that NSBI, as I said a moment ago, is poised to work with all who are in the industry. We have to wait and see if everybody in the industry can work together to help move our province forward in an economical way. We think that the tax credit that you keep referring to is being cut, which is still there, can still help them do that.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Given that the film industry is extremely important to the creative sector here in Nova Scotia, did you have many discussions around the Cabinet table encouraging and fighting to keep the tax credit available here in Nova Scotia?

 

            MR. INCE: I, like most of my Cabinet members, understand the direction that the province and the government is going to help save, promote and move our province forward down the road.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I'm going to ask the question again: Did you sit with Cabinet and discuss and encourage saving the tax credit rebate?

 

            MR. INCE: As I've said to you, we support the direction that the government is moving in to help grow our economy, to help keep students here, to help support our health care system, and all the creative industries and businesses and small businesses. We didn't take this lightly. We moved forward. We did what we had to do to try to move the province forward. As I said, the tax credit has not been cut. It is still there.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I would like to ask again, because I don't want to assume, but in your answer I am understanding then that you did try to encourage them to keep it the way it was and not make changes to make it more difficult for the film industry.

 

            MR. INCE: I'm not willing to discuss what was discussed around the Cabinet table during those certain periods of time.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: We have all heard comments made - unfair comments in my opinion - that the industry will adapt. What if I told you that the Saskatchewan Government faced very harsh criticism when they cut their film tax credit back in 2011-12. While Premier Wall sought to come up with a solution that he saw is fair to the industry and to the province, he did try to work with industry.

 

Are you prepared to support jobs in the cultural sector of Nova Scotia by adding your influence as the Minister for Communities, Culture and Heritage in asking the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board to extend an olive branch to the film industry in Nova Scotia and perhaps encourage her to reverse this decision, knowing the impact and the detrimental effects it's going to have on economic growth here in Nova Scotia?

 

            MR. INCE: The minister has already indicated that she is going to sit down with the industry and have further conversations with them.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: The industry has been very loud and clear, and the number of calls that I have received - and just once again, I mentioned earlier my own constituency and the fact that we had five films scheduled and within 18 hours we are down to three. We've lost funding from a company in China, and there are some very upset people back home. Once again, it has a trickle effect, right? What advice would you give to me to go back and tell these people how it's going to get better for them?

 

            MR. INCE: Well, first of all, I don't think it would be my place to give you advice as to how you should speak to your own constituents, but I do say that the industry and the government - the government is poised and ready to work with the industry and talk. A lot of stuff that has come out has been before the budget - a lot of speculation. Nobody had any idea what was going to happen.

 

            After that came out we have made some changes to the way we provide that particular tax incentive. As the Premier has said and the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board has indicated, the credit is still there, the tax incentive is still there, it's just sent a message and shown them that we are looking at doing things differently.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Mr. Houston.

 

            MR. TIM HOUSTON: You talked about the speculation leading up to the budget and you mentioned that in hearing the public outcry, you said we changed it. Was there a different tax credit scenario on the table that then got changed from what we saw in the actual budget?

 

            MR. INCE: No, what I'm saying is that the way the tax credit was doled out before or handed out before has been changed and you're seeing that change now that was presented in budget.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Okay, so there was speculation that there would be a change to the tax credit and people were worried about that. The government heard that concern and heard that speculation and carried on or tweaked it a little bit?

 

            MR. INCE: I think everybody heard the speculation, everybody was aware because the Finance and Treasury Board Minister sort of gave an indication of, hold your seats. To speak about anything else in that, what you see is what the government put forward and that's what they've laid out in the budget.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: I just want to follow up with my colleague a little bit because I think it's a very important question to ask you in your capacity as the minister of this portfolio. Did you personally support the change as came down or did you raise any concerns on behalf, in your capacity as minister - maybe we should do something a little different with this credit than what you're going ahead with, minister. Did you raise any objection to what we saw in the budget? Or, in fact, was what we saw in the budget actually your idea in your capacity as minister?

 

            MR. INCE: Thank you for giving me the credit to being somebody in Finance and Treasury Board because I don't control finances, I'm not a finance person. I can't answer that. All I can tell you is that I am not prepared to discuss what was discussed around the Cabinet table.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: My understanding of the budget process is that various departments provide input into the Department of Finance and Treasury Board who then responds back. Is it your position here that the Department of Finance and Treasury Board makes these decisions of themselves without consulting to you as minister of an impacted portfolio? Did I hear that correct? You have no input in the budget process?

 

            MR. INCE: We all have input in the budget process, dependant on your department and what you have been asked to go and take care of. You're asking me directly about the Film Tax Credit, and you have to address those questions to the Finance and Treasury Board Department.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Okay, on this very important issue of this tax credit, you offered no input nor were asked for any input.

 

            MR. INCE: As I said, I'm not prepared to discuss what was discussed around the Cabinet table.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Ms. MacFarlane.

 

            MS. KARLA MACFARLANE: I think I'm going to switch gears here although I do intend to get back to the Film Tax Credit after I speak to some stakeholders in between speaking and the NDP speaking.

 

            I'm just going to go to the new heritage project for Yarmouth is of great interest. The Town of Yarmouth will develop Heritage in Your Hand and it's a self-guided activity app to promote communities, culture and heritage, which I think is a very interesting initiative. The new app is being developed, I think it's going to be in time for that upcoming tourist season and we'll give the opportunity to visitors to guide them to the different sites within that area. I don't know if it's just in the Town of Yarmouth of on the outside of Yarmouth, so that's one of my questions if it goes beyond the town. I know the town is partnering with Yarmouth and Acadian Shores Tourism Association so if you could just affirm first what exactly the app is going to do and where it will guide people.

 

            MR. INCE: I could give you a simplified version if you'd be okay with that. Basically the app you can have it on your phone, you can go around through places, buildings whatever in the community, you can take a picture of that, it will download all the history and all the information that has to do with that particular, say for example a heritage property and it will give you all the information on that, which is quite exciting.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I'm sorry, I just want to know - is it going beyond to other areas outside town limits - are they included in the app? So are sort of the more reaching rural areas outside of the town included in this app?

 

            MR. INCE: From what I understand, just in that immediate region or area and then hopefully other towns and communities can see what's happening there and adopt the same process. I can't give you much more information other than that at this point because I do have somebody in staff that was at a conference right now in dealing with this as we speak.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: My understanding is that this pilot project is approximately $35,000 investment and I do like hearing your statement that you're hoping other towns will adopt a similar initiative. So I'm wondering is that a financial amount of $35,000 going to available for other communities throughout Nova Scotia to tap into and assist in promoting such an app.

 

            MR. INCE: We have a whole host of programs and funding through our department and if a community puts together an application and a plan and comes to us with an idea that they'd like to do to help promote culture in their area, I would suggest that our department is there to help any community move forward with something like that.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Did the Yarmouth and Acadian Shores Tourism Association and the Waterfront Development Corporation - did they come to you with initiative or did you go to them?

 

            MR. INCE: This was an initiative that was started from them.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: And what company is developing the app and is the total amount of $35,000 going to the company for developing that or can you breakdown that amount for me.

 

            MR. INCE: I'm not totally immersed in all the details but I can get you those details and make sure you have all that information.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Is it a fact that come June this app will be available.

 

            MR. INCE: It is our hope that it will become available in June, yes.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: With 27 provincial museums and interpreted centres, 13 national historical sites, and dozens of community based museums. Nova Scotia obviously offers plenty of history to explore, hands on experiences for tourists. They can experience basically anything from fisheries to fossils and whales to the McCullum House to discover their genealogy. How much is allocated this year to museums.

 

            MR. INCE: We invest $11 million in the Nova Scotia museum system.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: So approximately how much does each museum receive? I am particularly interested in the amount that would be invested in the Pictou County area.

 

            MR. INCE: So to answer your question, for your particular area we provide $855,000 to the museums and for projects.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Would that amount include recent financing towards the future library in Pictou?

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, as a matter of fact, operational funding for the regional library in that area is $566,000.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Thank you for that. I was looking for that number as well but I'm just wondering what the number is. There has been recent announcement of us moving forward to build a new library in the Town of Pictou and I believe there's been funding, well I'm certain that there's funding on three different levels that has been received but I haven't been able to attain the actual figure that has been given from the provincial government, or if it has yet even.

 

            MR. INCE: I'll check into that and make sure you get that information as well.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: But I can't confirm that there is money set aside for that project in Pictou.

 

            MR. INCE: I'll check it because I don't have an answer for that for you at this moment either. (Interruption) Oh there is, I just found out, so there is but we don't know the amount that has been allocated.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: In our province there are 27 provincial museums and interpretative centres. Do we know how many jobs there are within these museums and interpretative centres? Were any affected by the most recent budget?

 

            MR. INCE: No, no jobs were affected by the recent budget.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: And do we have a total number of employees, though?

 

            MR. INCE: There are 77 positions.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Thank you. A February news story that peeked my interest said that employees of regional museums will be on board the Nova Star ferry during the tourist season. I'm just wondering what they'll be actually doing and how they are paid and hired and if you could provide a little bit of information around that initiative.

 

            MR. INCE: We'll look into that and get you the information because I don't have all the details on that either. Sorry.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Are you aware of it?

 

            MR. INCE: I am now.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Thank you very much.

 

            MR. INCE: Ms. MacFarlane, if I can just finish on that if I may. I don't know even if they're all of our staff or our employees so there are a lot of details around that that I can't answer right now, honestly.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Thank you. I had a couple of museums in Pictou County contact me a number of weeks ago they received a letter from the Department of Economic Development and as well as the Nova Scotia Tourist Agency indicating that they would not have any more literature sent to them; The Doers and Dreamers Guide, etcetera. As you know, many small museums or any museums in Nova Scotia struggle, most of them are on a non-profit budget and so this concern was raised to me.

 

            I'm just wondering if you heard back from any of them the fact that they will no longer, they have to pay now to have the literature sent to them and these are people who work in an industry that is seasonal as well as they are great ambassadors for us and they share information and pass it on to the tourists. Now the cost of getting the information is being downloaded onto them and I'm just wondering if your department has any thoughts on that and if you've heard back from any of them.

 

            MR. INCE: This hasn't come directly to my attention and I haven't heard directly from anyone but as you are aware, government is looking at streamlining a lot of its processes in the number of things that they are doing. In terms of the Doers and Dreamers Guide and those types of things, they are all available electronically. Most people today will access their electronic devices to get information such as that so I think that the government is looking at trying to keep the cost down.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I'm going to switch over right now to the Viola Desmond Community Engagement forum; I'm very pleased with this initiative. As we all know, February 13, 2015 it began to develop a tribute to her that will represent her legacy and last beyond many years for Nova Scotians to celebrate. I'm very excited about that. I'm just wondering, on that date, if you can just let me know how many people actually attended and if you can maybe expand a little bit what ideas were brought forward.

 

            MR. INCE: I'm glad you asked that. Actually, first of all, when we go back to the event, it was well received; it was standing room only actually. It was quite impressive because I had no idea that Nova Scotians from all sectors of society were that interested. The songwriting contest had people - I'm not sure if you're familiar with the room on the main floor in the Casino, but people stood outside the room through the whole contest. I saw a lot of people come together. What I saw also were artists who are from all different regions of our province step up, really grab this whole idea of social justice and what was going on and write some beautifully written lyrics and some music for that particular Heritage Day and that particular event.

 

            As I said, we've had about 200 submissions. It was very challenging for Music Nova Scotia and the judges to really whittle those submissions down to the three people who stood up that night and performed live, along with one or two other groups who performed because what they had produced was so inspiring.

 

            I would just say - if I may take a moment just to share with you where it came from - that the whole idea came from a visit that I had made when I was in Toronto. Just after we announced that Heritage Day would be coming, I'm sitting at a jazz bar in Toronto, speaking to a couple of musicians there who have connections to Nova Scotia - relatives, family members - and they were playing a song about Rosa Parks. I'm sitting there in the bar and we're talking and I'm thinking, here we are, we're in Canada, we have all kinds of people constantly - musicians, artists, whatever - talking about Rosa Parks and what Rosa Parks has done. I said, we have a person who did something very similar 10 years before Rosa Parks, and yet most Canadians don't even know it, and I said, and here I am sitting in a Canadian bar listening to musicians play a song about an American activist.

 

            I came home and started to share that idea with a couple of friends and staff members, and we said, why don't we see if we can do something similar, but for Viola Desmond. So that is where that whole idea came about.

           

            MS. MACFARLANE: I'm ready to hand over a few moments to my colleague and then I'll wrap it up.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Mr. Houston.

 

            MR. TIM HOUSTON: I just want to come back to that app for Yarmouth. I'm just wondering, who owns that app? Is that something that would be owned by the province or was it provincial money? Who owns that app?

 

            MR. INCE: I will check this, but I believe the app will be owned by the organization of the municipality, but I'll get you the information to find out who is going to own that app.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: I appreciate that because I think that's a significant question to know because that app may have great value to other communities. It might be something that we could use in other communities at very little economic investment maybe or who knows where that will go. That's something I'd be very interested in knowing.

 

            The only other question I had is to do with - there is a program within your department that provides funding to festivals and events. I think it's a program that's about $500,000 in size - a very specific program. Are you familiar with that program?

 

            MR. INCE: If I could get you to repeat the last part of that - just before I leaned over?

 

            MR. HOUSTON: It was a program that has traditionally been about $500,000. It was a specific program for festivals and events. I'm just wondering if you could name that program and then I want to ask some questions about where that program might be going.

 

            MR. INCE: The program is called Cultural and Youth Activities Program and the program distributes just under $5,000.

 

MR. HOUSTON: Okay, so that program has been in existence for a while, I think. I'm wondering about the criteria for that program. The way that it was explained to me was that once you are kind of in, you are in - it goes to the same festivals and events year after year.

 

            MR. INCE: Well that doesn't ring true to me. The program that I just mentioned to you is an application-based program.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: No, this is a program that I'll have to talk to my constituent again but this program kind of operated that it goes to the same festivals year after year and the question was, is it time to have a look at that again and maybe expand that because I'm sure there's a lot of pretty important festivals that would like in but maybe can't get in. I don't if you have been able to identify the one.

 

            MR. INCE: Well first of all, I don't have per se a festivals and events program, that is with Tourism. I have a number of many other programs that provide and do help with festivals and many other things within the province.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Okay, that may be right. I apologize for that and thank you for that.

 

            Just switching gears a little bit to Bluenose II - you may have heard of Bluenose II before. (Laughter)

 

            MR. INCE: I'm slightly familiar with it, yes. (Laughter)

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Bluenose II used to be under your department but is now no longer under your department, from what I understand. Is it the case that there's any budget for the current year for Bluenose II allocated to your department or is there no budget in your department?

 

            MR. INCE: Well first of all yes, my department provides $650,000 for the operational funding of the vessel. That being said, our department is responsible for the operations of the vessel.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Okay, thank you for that. Now in looking at last year's budget numbers, would they have included anything other than that $650,000 of operational money? Like would there have been any . . .

 

            MR. INCE: No.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Okay. So last year the departmental budget did not include any operating funds for Bluenose II? 

           

            MR. INCE: It did, it included the $650,000 but there were no capital funds for the vessel.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Okay, fair enough, so it was $650,000 last year, $650,000 this year and the capital was all elsewhere and that will still be the case going forward.

 

            MR. INCE: That's correct.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Okay. So that's $650,000 last year that wouldn't have been used then, because it never operated, right?

 

            MR. INCE: So to answer your question, no, that $650,000 was used last year. It was used for staff, for the captains and to keep - to do the continuing work on the vessel.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Thank you. Then of course that same applies that you'd be using that budget this year for the same reason.

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, because it is operational funding for the vessel.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Have you received any indication from the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal of a possible sailing date for Bluenose II?

 

            MR. INCE: No.

 

            MR. HOUSTON: Okay, thank you.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacMaster.

 

            MR. ALLAN MACMASTER: Minister, I'm glad to have a chance to ask a couple of questions. I know we're coming to the end of our hour.

 

            I'm interested in - well one of my critic areas is Gaelic Affairs but I also thought I would look at a couple of the other cultural groups in the province - African Affairs and Acadian Affairs. I notice in the budget that Acadian Affairs looks like it's okay, there's no real change there but I did notice, and I worked out the percentages quickly here, but based on the estimate for this year versus the estimate last, African Nova Scotian Affairs looks like it's going down 8.3 per cent and Gaelic Affairs down about 7 per cent.

 

            It concerns me. I know that the purpose of the budget - there's an effort to try to reduce costs. I want to put on the record that it disappoints me that areas like this are looked at because I think they are very important to the province. They are cultures that I think have been overlooked for many, many years.

 

            I know the work that is being done in Gaelic Affairs is quite new. We only need to look at schools even in Halifax here, Citadel High School, there's a tremendous amount of Gaelic being learned by students there. I think that goes in the category, some people say well that doesn't matter, it's not important. We'll never change those people's views and I don't really care about their views, that's not my goal to change their views.

 

            I see it as education, I see it as part of people's identity, something that's very important to their emotional health and I think that's good for them having success in life, whether it's working and contributing to the province in a positive way.

 

            I've made the comment that I'm disappointed by that. Why were Gaelic Affairs and African Nova Scotian Affairs targeted for these reductions? I'll let you answer.

 

            MR. INCE: Well the department has eliminated 10 positions throughout the department to streamline administrative efficiencies. None of the program funding will alter any of the programs so everything remains, it stays there.

 

            The reductions that you are speaking to are reductions more around administrative and we had to take a look at administrative efficiencies.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Okay. How much time is remaining?

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: You have three minutes.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Three minutes, okay. Well on my critic area of Gaelic Affairs I notice there are one and one-half positions eliminated out of five. On a percentage base that's quite high.

 

            I know the people working in that office, a lot of their time is spent out in the field with young learners of the language and they are doing great work. My concern is that it's something that is fairly new, this office, and that there's good work being done but with these changes it may impact the ability of those people remaining to continue to be out in the field, doing what they're doing. Can you offer some comment on that?

 

            MR. INCE: To answer your question, the ability to provide services and programs throughout the community is still going to be there. As I said, the programming is not being cut but you also have to be aware that along with the money that Gaelic Affairs receives, they also receive additional support and funding from CCH as well. So we will be able to support and provide and help provide some of the programs that are still out there.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, Madam Chairman. I think that's pretty well the end of our time.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Ms. Zann, whenever you are ready.

 

            MS. LENORE ZANN: Okay, so we've got an hour, do we?

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: You do.

 

            MS. ZANN: Just want to say hello and that I will be joined by my colleagues as well. I know that a couple of people have some questions, including my friend Denise, who will be coming back. As the critic for the portfolio, I'll start off.

 

            First of all I just want to say that as somebody who is in the arts and has been ever since I can remember, since I was 15-years old, I want to say that I understand that this particular department is not the film and television department. I understand that you are not responsible per se for what happened with the Film Tax Credit so I am not going to actually devote my time here to focusing solely on that.

 

            Obviously I am upset about it, the industry is upset - you now that, I know that and I know that you also understand that this is a big blow to that particular industry. I love the creative economy and I love the creative arts and there are so many other parts of it that you are responsible for and I am going to spend most of my time asking about that, which I am sure you will find really.

 

            So given that, I just want to say first of all, I was noticing earlier on - I thought you mentioned that there were no jobs cut from the department in this particular budget but yet when Mr. MacMaster was asking about jobs, there are cuts to some of the jobs in the department. Could you tell me how many, in total, were cut in this budget?

 

            MR. INCE: Certainly. There were 10 positions eliminated throughout my department.

 

            MS. ZANN: Okay, 10 positions. Which parts of the department were they cut from? Which areas?

 

            MR. INCE: Okay, I'll break it down for you. The administrative restructure which included Acadian Affairs and African Nova Scotian Affairs, 4.6 FTEs. The budget transfer from Department of CCH to Internal Services for IT shared services was 4 FTEs. There was a 1 per cent reduction, which involved 2 FTEs but with the budget transfer from CCH to Internal Services for information access and privacy consultation, 0.3 FTE.

 

            Two FTEs were added to the department from Department of ERDT, bringing the net variance to about 8.9 FTEs.

 

            MS. ZANN: So you said it was in Acadian Affairs and ANSA, not in Gaelic Affairs?

 

            MR. INCE: No, Gaelic Affairs and ANSA and Acadian Affairs. The other positions were archives, museums, and libraries.

 

            MS. ZANN: Archives, museums, and libraries.

 

            MR. INCE: And one in our senior secretariat

 

MS. ZANN: Also, how much money is your department getting from the ERDT as a result of that department being collapsed?

 

MR. INCE: I believe, and I'll confirm in a second but I believe, if I remember correctly it's about $800,000. The actual number is $1.7 million in program funding from ERDT.

 

MS. ZANN: Thank you, so $1.7 million in program funding. When I look at the cuts that were made, I see the reduction of Acadian Affairs and Gaelic Affairs. Strategic Funding Initiative reduction of $250,000 - what is that exactly?

 

MR. INCE: The Strategic Funding Initiative, that's the one you're asking about? It's a one-time funding based on applied and local circumstances and projects that are significant to communities. They may have the same community region, they may the same community region receiving funding but it's for different projects each year. Basically what we're saying is that it is a one-time fund that goes to communities and funds specific projects within those communities but it changes each year or there is a change each year. You can't come back and try to fund the same project next year; you would have to do it differently.

 

MS. ZANN: Thank you. We'll get it right - who's on first, what's on second. (Laughter) Are you saying then that specific funding, that one-time funding is now cut?

 

MR. INCE: Yes, it's been reduced to $250,000, yes.

 

MS. ZANN: So it's been by $250,000. Is there any left in it?

 

MR. INCE: Yes, $250,000. That's right, it was $750,000.

 

MS. ZANN: So it's been cut to $550,000.

 

MR. INCE: No, $500,000. It was $750,000 and $250,000 has been cut, so it has $500,000 left in it.

 

MS. ZANN: Okay. Thank you. Was that the Community Jobs Facility Grant?

 

MR. INCE: No, that is a different one.

 

MS. ZANN: So Community Jobs Facility Grant? Is that what's called?

 

MR. INCE: That's correct.

 

MS. ZANN: So is it still intact, with no cuts?

 

            MR. INCE: First of all of let's get the name straight, it's the Communities Facilities Improvement Fund, which is currently at $633,000; it was reduced by $483,000.

 

            MS. ZANN: So it was reduced in this budget by $483,000.

 

            MR. INCE: Yes.

 

            MS. ZANN: Going back to the jobs that were eliminated from Acadian Affairs, ANSA, and Gaelic Affairs, were they people that were retiring that you're just not hiring back or were these actual job cuts where they were told, sorry your job's gone, don't come back tomorrow?

 

            MR. INCE: There were actually four staff was laid off but two of the positions were already vacant, so two were only impacted. We have two positions that were vacant and total of four staff that were laid off, let me reiterate that, so if that helps you.

 

            MS. ZANN: I thought there were 10 positions altogether.

 

            MR. INCE: They weren't in the cultural office, those 10 positions were throughout the department.

 

            MS. ZANN: Okay.

 

            MR. INCE: Right now we're discussing the Cultural Offices that you had asked about.

 

            MS. ZANN: So four were in Acadian, ANSA, and Gaelic Affairs, two of them were already vacant.

 

            MR. INCE: Yes.

 

            MS. ZANN: And the other two - were they in Acadian, Gaelic, or ANSA or one in each.

 

            MR. INCE: Let me break it down for you. In Gaelic Affairs, there was one EC and there was BU and both of those were close to retirement. In African Nova Scotian Affairs, there was one unit which was vacant, and then there was another EC that has been let go. In Acadian Affairs, one position was vacant and there was one BU.

 

            MS. ZANN: Already that straightens that one out. With regards to your CMAP program, at one point the department was talking about doing a re-haul and looking at the CMAP program and trying to figure out which museums should still be on the list, which ones maybe shouldn't be and whether they could add some new ones that have now been created lately that weren't getting any funding, could you please give me an update on that.

 

            MR. INCE: We are still in that process, we're still working on that. Actually we're working with the museum community and we're looking at consultations as well, to look at how we can better. It's still all under review.

 

            MS. ZANN: When do you expect that review to be done.

 

            MR. INCE: I can't give you a specific time right now. It will be completed this fiscal year.

 

            MS. ZANN: This fiscal year, so in 2015 going into 2016 fiscal year.

 

            MR. INCE: 2015/16 fiscal year.

 

            MS. ZANN: At this point in time there are 22 or 27 community museums.

 

            MR. INCE: No, there's a lot more - 66 community museums.

 

            MS. ZANN: Is the Black Loyalist Heritage Centre considered one of those or is that separate?

 

            MR. INCE: The Black Loyalist Heritage Centre is going to be in with - it's not a community museum. It's going to be a museum that's within the department.

 

            MS. ZANN: Right, and so how many other museums like that are there?

 

            MR. INCE: Twenty-eight.

 

            MS. ZANN: That's the one I was thinking about. Has funding for those museums - the one where there are 28 of them - stayed the same, increased or has been decreased?

 

            MR. INCE: It has stayed the same.

 

            MS. ZANN: Stayed the same, except for the Black Loyalist Heritage Centre. Have you added money this year or was it money from last time?

 

            MR. INCE: It was money added this year for that, $275,000.

 

            MS. ZANN: So in total amount, how much money have we spent on the museum?

 

            MR. INCE: On the Black Loyalist Heritage Centre?

 

            MS. ZANN: Yes, in total so far, altogether.

 

            MR. INCE: We have provided $250,000 for operational support to get them going. That was in the year before.

 

            MS. ZANN: But there was $650,000 put into it before that, correct?

 

            MR. INCE: Well there were several partners involved in that, from the community to private investors. We don't have that number right now but that was for their capital project. Oh, it was just given to me, $1.65 million by the province.

 

            MS. ZANN: Thank you. So the $1.65 million from the province - does that include the $250,000 this year or is that on top of the $1.65 million we've already put into it?

 

            MR. INCE: The $1.65 million was the capital funding and the $250,000 is operational, so yes, that was on top.

 

            MS. ZANN: Yes, because I remember our dear former member Percy Paris being so proud when he did manage to put - I think it was about $700,000 into that. That's why I was wondering how much it is now altogether. So it is opening on June 1^st, is it?

 

            MR. INCE: Early June. I can't give you the exact date at this moment because there's still some logistical things we're working out, so early June.

 

            MS. ZANN: Okay, well I would love to get an invitation to that, I'd love to be there.

 

            MR. INCE: You will.

 

            MS. ZANN: Thank you, because I think that will be a proud moment for Nova Scotia. I think it's a very important centre and it tells a story that the world needs to know. I also think it was wonderful that the mini-series was done, The Book of Negroes and I had visited the Heritage Society that is there now, the little small church. I was there last summer and I got to see the exhibits that they have now, which are great, but it's going to be so much more exciting when we get our new centre.

 

            I do think it's very sad that the film industry is being given this kind of kick in the teeth right after The Book of Negroes came out, which is going to attract so many more people from around the world to want to come and see where we came from and where our Black heritage got started here in Nova Scotia. I have even been talking to my friend Bill Niven who is one of the producers of that series, about the idea of having a spin-off and turning it into a television series that would be shot here in Nova Scotia. So taking the mini-series and turning it into a regularly filmed TV series would have been extremely exciting, I think, for our province and again for tourism as well but now I would say that's not going to happen so that's sad.

 

            I have some questions for you regarding the Mi'kmawey Debert Cultural Centre. Does that fall under your department?

 

            MR. INCE: We do work with them, it's not up and running yet but we've had staff work with them on many levels.

 

            MS. ZANN: Could you tell me where it stands presently. What is there exactly? How much money have we put into it already? And are you planning on investing in it in the next year to come or the foreseeable future?

 

            MR. INCE: As I said just a moment ago, we have availed staff. Staff continues to work with them. It's an ongoing project. We work with them and Aboriginal Affairs. We are working with them on all levels and it's an ongoing project, as I said so there are no details, there is nothing that I can really tell you because it's an ongoing process at the moment.

 

            MS. ZANN: Okay, so I'm just trying to get my head wrapped around this then. It's a museum, right?

 

            MR. INCE: Well, I would suggest that it would be but I would have to ask the Mi'kmaq community if they want to classify it as a museum or tourism centre, I don't know.

 

            MS. ZANN: Okay, so the last that you had dealing with would be Mr. Oliver, wouldn't it? Don Oliver?

 

            MR. INCE: No, Don Julien.

 

            MS. ZANN: Okay, Dr. Don Julien - this has been his vision for a long time. I went there to a ceremony where we had given them some money when we were in government and so had the federal government. The idea was to have a cultural center and museum where they would hold the artifacts that are the oldest Indian Paleolithic artifacts in North America, they are 11,000 years old. There are flutes that are made out of elk bone, elk pipes, like the throat of an elk, things like this from 11,000 years ago. So it's an extremely rich spot for our valuable heritage items and artifacts and I know that they need to have a place to encase them.

 

            I've also been there recently to look at the site where they are still digging and they also want to create a forest there where people can walk through the forest, so it's going to be an eco-tourism ethnic, cultural center and museum so that people can get a real feeling for what it used to be like here in Nova Scotia and then have an interpreter center there as well so they can see what it's been like throughout the years.

            At this point in time, are you saying that there is no funding on the table to give them any more funding to build the centre?

 

            MR. INCE: What I'm saying is this - as with the African Nova Scotia Community, it's a story that has to be told. It's important. It's important to the province and it's important to Canada, actually, and internationally so we will continue to work with them on that. Yes, it is a rich archeological site, we're fully aware and as I've said earlier, we continue to work with them. We will work with them to try to help to tell their story.

 

            MS. ZANN: I'm sorry to try to pin you down, but I would like to know, are you intending on giving them any money? Because it's okay to support them and want to keep talking to them but I know they need money. I think they're looking for half a million dollars or something like this. So yes or no are you going to be able to give them some money that I know they desperately need.

 

            MR. INCE: The reason why I may seem so evasive is because there hasn't been a specific ask from the community. All I can tell you is, is that everything they are trying to do we are working with them and we will continue to work with them to try to help to tell that story.

 

            MS. ZANN: If I was to come back to you and say, okay we know now Dr. Julien has a specific ask, could we take a meeting and could we talk with you about coming up with some funding, would you be able to come up with some funding with the budget as it is now? Do you have any wiggle room to be able to give them some funding if they come up with a specific ask.

 

            MR. INCE: I can't speak to the specifics around the funding but I will say to you that my door is opened and you know I'm willing to work, especially when there is a story that has to be told and that's part of our collective history then our department is the department that will work with communities to tell that story.

 

            MS. ZANN: Yes, and I would suggest that maybe some of the money that you got from Economic and Rural Development and Tourism might be able to be used to go towards that project because that would be a fantastic project for tourism for Nova Scotia and as you said to tell our story for North America really, I mean it is one of the oldest.

 

            When I first got in government, I remember the business people in my community and the municipality really wanted to push the Aboriginals, the folks that were doing the digging, the archeologist - they were taking their time and there was a business that wanted to expand in the area. They were trying to tell me that you've got to tell them to hurry up and you've got to do something as government to make them hurry up, this is a million dollar business, and it needs to expand. I said well do you understand that what they're looking for are these artifacts which are 11,000 years old, they're invaluable. They're so valuable you can't even put a price on it, so no I'm not going to tell them to hurry up, I want them to take the time that they need to find what they need to find. You don't want to pave it over with a parking lot because that's not going to bring tourists here and that's not going to tell our story.

 

I'm really glad that we took our time as a government and allowed them to do what they needed to do and in the end the extra building did get built for the business, everybody's happy. Sometimes I think it's difficult to explain to people in government, as you might have become aware, the importance of some of these things that are the intangibles, that aren't necessary going to give you a big pay off right tomorrow but are just culturally and spiritually valuable for our people and so the same goes for museums. With the community museum system I did notice that there were at the time when I first got started there were no First Nations museums on the community museum CMAP list and I was trying to help get the Glooscap Heritage Society on that list. In the end we managed to get them some money but I don't know if they ever really got put on the list or not and then they had some financial issues of their own.

 

I did see for the organizations that received funding I see that it's on the list for $41,000 so is that money that has just been given recently or is this before the financial difficulties.

 

MR. INCE: To answer your question, there has been money put in last year to support them. In terms of the specifics around that, I'll have to get you the information.

 

            MS. ZANN: If you could, that would be great. One thing that I do want to say about the department and if you could pass it on to Marcel McKeough - at the time when they had their difficulties and they were reaching out to try and get some more money, I did not contact your office and ask for money for them because I felt that it wasn't right and that until the financial situation was straightened out, especially with Revenue Canada, that there was no way on earth I was going to be going to bat for anybody until they had their financial house in order.

 

            Now I'm told that things have been straightened out and there have been some movements there with new people coming on board. I know somebody who is being talked to right now who is a very fine young Mi'kmaq man who was one of the interpreters there. A very knowledgeable young man and he is being talked to at the moment about possibly being a director of the place.

 

I'm hoping that if that goes ahead, then I would come and say I think that it's okay now to support this particular heritage centre and a museum. I really think they should be put on the CMAP list when possible. I know it's hard because you've already got a ton of them on there and it means you have to knock a couple of them off to add new ones on. Do you think you will have any more funding available for new CMAP designations and events?

 

            MR. INCE: As I indicated a little earlier, that program is under review.

 

            MS. ZANN: It has been under review for five years, six years.

 

            MR. INCE: Well all I can tell you is that the people in the department I think are working very well. They are very good workers, they work really well and understand most of the communities they are working in. I would suggest that they are moving diligently to try to help this review process be wrapped up so we can look at requests like you are asking.

 

            MS. ZANN: I mean with the deputy minister here as well, I would like to suggest that in the last number of years people are appreciating other cultures more than they used to in the past. It used to be very difficult for other cultures to get funding for their projects whereas the European settlers didn't have as much trouble, it seems, getting funding for theirs. I think it's time we put our money into Aboriginal affairs and into African Nova Scotian and all the others - Gaelic. Well Gaelic has quite a few, actually, but especially African Nova Scotia and Aboriginal museums because they have a story to tell and they are all around the province as well.

 

            The Glooscap Centre is really good. Have you been there at all lately?

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, I have, many times.

 

            MS. ZANN: So you know what I'm talking about. They have other great programs, too, where they teach the language to the children and the schools come in and they have the buttons you can press and you can say whatever word and it comes out in Mi'kmaq so you can learn that. They have a healing garden with medicinal healing plants and they have elders who will take you through and teach you all the medicinal plants and what their properties are. These are the types of things that I think we need to focus on in Nova Scotia to make Nova Scotia unique and to make it a welcoming place for the future, for not only the people who live here and the children to teach them this history but also our visitors.

 

            On that note I'd also like to ask you about the targeted reduction to the Culture and Heritage Development programs. There was a cut of a little over $0.5 million.

 

            MR. INCE: There were three programs where there were deductions made. One of them, we've already talked about earlier, a strategic funding initiative. The other one as well we already discussed was the Community Facilities Fund. Then the other one is the Strategic Development Initiatives.

 

            MS. ZANN: Thank you, except that the Strategic Funding Initiative reduction is separate. That was $250,000?

 

            MR. INCE: Yes.

 

            MS. ZANN: So the targeted reduction to Culture and Heritage Development programs is separate and that's $523,000. So you're saying it includes the Community Facility Fund reduction, but what else does it include?

 

            MR. INCE: It includes the other two that I had mentioned - the Strategic Funding Initiative and the Strategic Development Initiatives.

 

            MS. ZANN: But the Strategic Funding Initiative is listed separately on top of the $523,000 as $250,000. So there are two different groups. It says, Strategic Funding Initiative reduction is $250,000, and there is a $523,000 deduction for targeted reduction to Culture and Heritage Development programs, departmental operating reduction, and Community Facility Fund reduction.

 

            MR. INCE: The Community Facilities Fund has been reduced by $483,000. The Strategic Funding Initiative has been reduced by $250,000. The Strategic Development Initiative is $100,000.

 

            MS. ZANN: The Strategic Development Initiative?

 

            MR. INCE: That is correct.

 

            MS. ZANN: What's that again?

 

            MR. INCE: The Strategic Development Initiative encourages partners in heritage to develop projects that build on the community assets and strengths.

 

            MS. ZANN: What kinds of programs were funded from that that will now no longer be funded?

 

            MR. INCE: First of all, they're application-based and I'll give you a couple of examples: the Association of Nova Scotia Museums, the Council of Nova Scotia Archives, Hammonds Plains Historical Society - these are some of the projects this has been funding - the New Ross District Museum, the North Highlands Community Organization Archives and Museums, the Town of Yarmouth, Wolfville Historical Society, and Mahone Bay Founders Society. Those are some of the projects that it has funded.

 

            MS. ZANN: Are those organizations getting any money from the department now or were they relying on that?

 

            MR. INCE: Those were one-time projects.

 

            MS. ZANN: Now that this has been cut, does that mean there is not that fund available for one-time projects anymore?

 

            MR. INCE: No, there is still money for the one-time projects - it's $100,000.

 

            MS. ZANN: So there is $100,000 left.

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, there is $100,000 there for projects still for those who apply.

 

            MS. ZANN: So for those who apply, there is $100,000.

 

            MR. INCE: That is correct.

 

            MS. ZANN: Thank you. It's not much. It was only $200,000 to start with?

 

            MR. INCE: Yes.

 

            MS. ZANN: The other thing I wanted to touch on was heritage, which is near and dear to my heart. You mentioned about Heritage Day, you mentioned about heritage properties - what about the Heritage Fair? Do you help to fund the Heritage Fair? Do you put money into that every year? You attended it this year, didn't you?

 

            MR. INCE: I can't even remember, I've been to so many things I can't remember. Yes. We have supported them, I will get you some information because I'm not sure but I think, again, on the basis they apply and?.

 

            MS. ZANN: Yes, I believe, it's been going on every year and for a while there they weren't getting any funding at all from the government. They were relying on the kindness of the strangers. Actually my mother was involved with getting that going, she was a history teacher in Truro and she loves heritage as well. She's now retired, but there are many other people who are involved in it and I believe the Heritage Trust has something to do with it and I believe the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development is also involved now. I would think that your department would also put money into that because you were there at the event; I think you met my mother there actually. I think that's where she met you the first time.

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, that's right.

 

            MS. ZANN: If you could get me some information about that, that would be really great. The other thing is, I think it's really important to teach our children and the youth of Nova Scotia from an early age on the importance of heritage and the importance of our heritage structures and architecture here in the Province of Nova Scotia because we have so much rich, valuable structures. I'm just wondering if you have funding that would be available to help, for instance, help keep our heritage properties up to scratch. Do you have any new funding? Any particular resource that's set aside for that?

 

            MR. INCE: In my opening statements, I had mentioned about heritage properties and the municipalities and so on. There is a fund for heritage properties so anybody who's looking at preserving those particular properties, they can apply through that fund. I also want to reiterate that the changes to the Heritage Property Act are not going to affect those people who are trying to do those things. It's more of an administrative change to help municipalities look at how they're going to deal with their heritage properties.

 

            MS. ZANN: Thank you. So the changes to the Heritage Property Act - are they coming in this session?

 

            MR. INCE: The changes as I've mentioned, there has to be consultation with the communities, the municipalities before anything is brought to the table. That's going to be happening in a couple of months.

 

            MS. ZANN: Thank you. Will you be doing these consultations right across the province?

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, we will be because all municipalities have properties that they all value and see as a historic value to their communities. Together with the municipalities and the government we're going to sit down and try to work that out with them.

 

            MS. ZANN: Thank you. Will that particular consultation be part of your overall culture, the one that you are rolling out across the province or are they two separate things?

 

            MR. INCE: No, that's a separate item all together.

 

            MS. ZANN: If you could also let me know about that maybe let me know when it is going to be happening because I would love attend.

 

            MR. INCE: Which one? The heritage property ones? Or both of them.

 

            MS. ZANN: Well both really I suppose. Especially if there's going to be anything in Truro, it would be great to be there and be able to take part and hear what's going on.

 

            Could you also tell me then briefly about the libraries. You say libraries are going to be part of your business going forward, that you believe in libraries and the importance of keeping our libraries up to date. I know there are many people out there who don't seem to think that you need libraries anymore because they think you can just Google it and that's it, but those of us who understand the importance of libraries and how they bring communities together and they're more than what they used to be in the old days. How much money are you setting aside specifically for libraries, new libraries, upgrades, capital costs, things like this?

 

            MR. INCE: First of all, what we provide is money for the operating grants, and that's $14 million.

 

            MS. ZANN: Fourteen million dollars for operating grants?

 

            MR. INCE: That's correct - annually.

 

            MS. ZANN: Is that the same amount as it was last year?

 

            MR. INCE: Yes. As I mentioned earlier in my opening statements, there is an ongoing review of the libraries to look at - operations and funding so how they can better serve the communities and the province moving forward into the future.

 

            MS. ZANN: Do you have anything in your department for capital costs for libraries?

 

            MR. INCE: No.

 

            MS. ZANN: So for libraries that are being built or that are refurbishing, then they would need to go to - which department?

 

            MR. INCE: For the capital costs, I would suggest - now I don't know all the departments, but I do know that TIR would be one department where they would begin to look.

 

            MS. ZANN: Is that the same if they're actually heritage buildings - if the library is a heritage building?

 

            MR. INCE: I will say that what has to happen is there has to be conversations with TIR because those are capital costs that you're talking about. It would have to be involved with the department when you look at the capital costs for projects such as that.

 

            MS. ZANN: When you talk about the communities having heritage buildings in them that they admire and respect and they think should be kept in shape for the future generations, does the money that you mention - I think you said $14 million?

 

            MR. INCE: It's $150,000. I didn't give you a number.

 

            MS. ZANN: So the $150,000 - is any of that money for capital costs of helping to fix up those heritage buildings in those communities?

 

            MR. INCE: No. Most of that money is for heritage projects in conservation of the heritage properties.

 

            MS. ZANN: Conservation of them.

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, registered under the Heritage Property Act. Not just anybody can come up. If it's registered then they're looking at conserving or they're looking at maybe doing a bit of modifications. That $150,000 is there to help those people who have applied.

 

            MS. ZANN: This is for communities, right?

 

            MR. INCE: Well, yes - it could be communities; it could be individuals. If the property is deemed a heritage property, then it would be based on that.

 

            MS. ZANN: What is that specific grant called?

 

            MR. INCE: It's called the Heritage Development Fund.

 

            MS. ZANN: And of that Heritage Development Fund, are you saying that there's only $150,000 for a whole year for the whole province for anybody? Like there's only $150,000 available?

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, that's correct.

 

            MS. ZANN: That doesn't go very far, especially when you are dealing with heritage buildings - to fix them up or conserve them.

 

            MR. INCE: Again, if we look at it, it's conservation. It's small projects. To give you an example, you know facings around windows, door frames, those types of projects to keep it up.

 

            MS. ZANN: What about roofs and things like that?

 

            MR. INCE: Well yes, roofs would be included as well.

 

            MS. ZANN: Okay, thank you. One thing I think is a real shame in our country is that because heritage and heritage buildings have not been valued as much as they should be, when you go to Heritage Canada, for instance, you can't get any money to help preserve and protect and refurbish heritage buildings. When you have a Communities, Culture and Heritage Department they don't seem to have any money for that either, which seems to me doesn't really make sense. I would really love to see a government that put its money where its mouth is when it comes to these types of things.

 

            I'll say right now that we didn't do it either, unfortunately. I think that governments that are looking to the future need to be able to appreciate their culture and where they came from, in order to preserve it, so that generations can appreciate it and also learn where they came from and figure out where you want to go.

 

            It would be nice down the line for this department to consider asking, I guess, others higher up to give more money to the department for these very types of things, to preserve and protect heritage properties. I mean $150,000 would barely even do a roof on some buildings, right?

 

            MR. INCE: We don't just stop there. If you look at the Communities Facilities Improvement Fund, they can apply through that as well. So although we may say there's $150,000 in that particular pocket or pool, there is another option to those heritage property owners.

 

            MS. ZANN: And that one is called what, again?

 

            MR. INCE: Community Facilities Improvement.

 

            MS. ZANN: And how much money is in that pocket?

 

            MR. INCE: $663,000.

 

            MS. ZANN: Okay, that's a little bit better. What kind of projects have you lately put money from that fund into?

 

            MR. INCE: Well I'm glad you asked, give me a moment because I can probably give you a sense of what was done in your particular area.

 

            MS. ZANN: Go for it. I'd just like to have a better idea about these.

 

            MR. INCE: To give you an example of some of the funding under the Community Facilities Fund and what we've helped, the IM Baptist Church in Lunenburg, the Annapolis Valley Exhibition, the Army, Navy, Air Force unit in Cape Breton, Boyleston Community Association, Colchester Historical Society, Creamery Square, the First United Church in Colchester, Knox United Church and there's quite a list because we do help a lot of people. In Merigomish Area Recreation Social Association.

 

            We've also - let me just see here - Northumberland Fisheries Museum and Heritage Association. We can look at St. George's Guild, Friends of Hank Snow in Queens and there are so many.

 

            MS. ZANN: That's great. That gives me a little bit of wider view of it. Now, what is the most that those communities can ask for? What's the cap?

 

            MR. INCE: Well, $50,000.

 

            MS. ZANN: Okay, so it goes up to $50,000. And they just have to apply. That's good to know.

 

            MR. INCE: And, if I may interject - if you're good with that, then I'll pull back on giving you a list of what's going on in your community.

 

            MS. ZANN: Well, United Church, that was in my community and there was one other one and they have applied, they've had to apply under various different things but I wasn't sure about this particular one. Again, I wanted to make sure because I know that there are a lot of these buildings out there that are, that these communities have and they want to preserve them but it's expensive. For instance, in Truro, we have the normal college which is one of the two oldest teacher's colleges in Canada and it's an old Victorian building, 24,000 square feet, four stories high, with a roof that is rounded so it's very difficult to replace and it also costs a lot of money to send people up that high to actually work on a roof, it costs more money because it's dangerous. So I know that to fix up a building like that is astronomical. One of the things that I did when I first came into government was to try to come up with ideas that they could do to save that building because they said if they didn't have an idea for it they were going to tear it down but it was a provincially designated heritage building so I fought tooth and nail to keep that up and say no, you can't just tear down a provincially designated heritage building, you can't just say you're going to do and do it. There is a whole lot of rigmarole you would have to go through in order to be allowed to do that.

 

            So we managed to keep it alive long enough that now it is being turned into a library which is fantastic. I'm not sure if they have applied for anything with your branch yet but they may easily have in the Town of Truro, I'm not really sure but the work has started and I'm really pleased. It's a gem of a building. It's like an old duchess of a building, it's just gorgeous and it's right in the heart of town. I know that Lunenburg and some of these places have such beautiful old buildings and it's just such a shame to see when people say I can't afford to keep it up so I'm just going to tear it down and put something else there because, obviously tourists want to come and see our gorgeous heritage and imagine what it used to be like in the old days. I know that in Truro for instance, they're doing things right now, they're talking about the stage coach houses where the stage coach used to stop and they've got a film that they're showing at the Historium. My mom and dad live in a house there that was a stage coach stop and so again, it enlivens people's imaginations and that's what makes them want to come to these places as opposed to somewhere else. I really think that out of all of the departments, yours is the most interesting and deserves respect and deserves to be thanked for the work that you do in trying to preserve our culture and our heritage. On that note I want to say thank you. I know that my colleague is going to be coming back in a little while and she has some questions that she wants to ask you as well.

 

            I'm just going to go back to some of the budget items here. Regarding . . .

 

            MR. INCE: If I may interject. I just wanted to thank you for thanking and seeing the value of the department but I would also like for all of you to recognize the hard work that goes on in the department and you mentioned something earlier about the awareness of culture and the awareness of things that are happening now and people becoming more engaged and that would not happen without the staff and the people who work in that department who value and love and really appreciate what culture brings to the province. I see it daily. These are people who are really committed so thank you for bringing that up.

 

            MS. ZANN: You're welcome, and I would agree when I was first elected I was made Ministerial Assistant to Communities, Culture and Heritage which was then Culture, Heritage, and Tourism, I believe, and Kelly was the deputy minister and she went away and now she's back but I did get to know a number of people in the department and they are very hard working. Kevin Barr, is it?

 

            MR. INCE: Barrett.

 

            MS. ZANN: Barrett, from Truro, wonderful man and has done wonderful things for Heritage so please keep up the good work, keep fighting for the good fight for what I know you believe in as well and I will be there to support you and also to hold you accountable when necessary so thank you very much.

 

            MR. INCE: And I expect that.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Perfect timing, Ms. MacFarlane, we'll move on to you for the next hour.

 

            MS. KARLA MACFARLANE: I just want to offer the minister, does he need a minute break or anything, or his deputy.

 

            MR. INCE: No, I'm good right now.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: The funding for Acadian and Francophone initiatives in March government is contributing, or did contribute, $57,000 to enhance the Francophone community and the media aspect of it. In the coming month's government and the CDENE will work with community based francophone media outlets throughout the province to strengthen their operations. I'm just wondering who they are, the different one.

 

            MR. INCE: Our department supports all of that and Minister Samson is the person that you would have to ask in terms of the details for these particular organizations because that's something that he's the minister of Acadian Affairs, we support them through funding and the other initiatives, but we can get it for you, the information on that agency that you've asked about.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: My understanding is there is around $57,000 that's coming from your department and I think there is three or four different media or radio stations within the province so I'm wondering out of that budget of $57,000 between the four different stations who is getting what and how is it broken down.

 

            MR. INCE: It's for a study for long-term sustainability for those particular organizations, those four organizations.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: There is an actually study that's taken place by whom?

 

            MR. INCE: There is a study, now you've got to bear with me my French isn't the best, so the CD, you know the other one that you've mentioned.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Yes.

 

            MR. INCE: And CDENE, there are organizations that will do the study and they are the researchers, they're going to work with researchers and the radio stations to develop a plan. As you can be aware I'm not that familiar with that part of it.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: A couple of questions then, will you be meeting with them to see what their outcome of this study will be and if the total amount of money going to them from this study.

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, I would suggest that we would be working with them on the outcomes of that study and that the $50,000 is for the strategic study and any more details I guess we can get from Minister Samson and provide them for you because I'm pretty shaky on all of this, to be quite honest.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I'm just curious though, is there any other funding through your department that goes to any other radio stations within the province for any community support?

 

            MR. INCE: Not that I'm aware of.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I'm going to change a little bit of direction here with regard to Bluenose II. I'm sure you anticipated that I would be following up a little bit. I can appreciate all the history that has taken place in the last couple of years.

 

            On April 10, 2014, in an answer to a question from me you said the Bluenose II project was on track. That turned out not to be so accurate. When were you actually made aware that the project had gone as bad as it did and just to refresh, I will perhaps quote what you had said. "The Bluenose II is on track. I expect it to be sailing this Spring and I encourage all Nova Scotians, especially those here in the House, to go down and see it and enjoy this beautiful project."

 

            MR. INCE: Well, during that period when you were asking the questions, everything that we were doing was on track. Everything that we had - everything that we had hoped would develop and come to fruition were moving in the right direction. I truly believed that at that time. I can't speak to really what had happened because in projects as large as that, there are many unforeseen things that may come up from time to time. That whole project over the number of years that it has been in existence has had many changes and many things change with it through many influences.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: That same day in an answer to a question from me, you said the answers to the 55 questions that we had submitted from our caucus about the Bluenose II project were available on your department's website. I'm wondering who advised you to provide that answer and who indicated that it was accurate.

 

            MR. INCE: Are you suggesting that they weren't on the site?

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Yes.

 

            MR. INCE: Well, to the best of my knowledge, all answers to most questions that people were asking were available on the site, and anybody could go in and look up, at that time, what was going on and most of the issues around the project at that time in terms of some of those questions.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Did you actually ever see the letter that was presented to the Premier with the 55 questions?

 

            MR. INCE: Staff had seen the letter, I believe. I will check into that. Personally, myself, I didn't.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: That is the question, thank you. I'm just wondering - did you feel that you had a hands-on role with that project or did you feel somewhat left out of the bigger scope of the project?

 

            MR. INCE: I believe that staff provided me with all the details and all the information on that project as we were working on it and moving forward. I was privy to a lot of information. I was down, I visited the vessel, I spoke to the builders, I spoke to the designers and to answer your question I believe we were handling it. I also was the individual at one point, if you can go back and look at most media casts, is to suggest that the Auditor General take a look at this project and the Auditor General, I think, has given you all of the answers that you may be looking for today.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: So in some of those statements, were you feeling that you did have a hands-on role with the project and very involved. I have a couple of questions, I just want to know, how many times did you actually visit Bluenose II during the fact that it was under your department and were you then surprised when it was taken out of your hands and given to Deputy Darrow?

 

            MR. INCE: I visited Bluenose II when it was under our portfolio as that project three times. Was I surprised? No. I was out of the country at the time and I was given notice.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: When that shift transaction happened to provide the responsibilities to Deputy Minister Darrow, did you actually have an opportunity to sit down with them?

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, we sat down a couple of times and discussed the project.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: And are you still able to be involved in the responsibility, do you have any say now, or do you meet them to do any follow up?

 

            MR. INCE: I find it quite interesting what people don't understand is that the day to day operations of Bluenose II still fall under CCH.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Thank you for that answer because that's actually a good segue. I'm just wondering what the plans are for the 2015 sailing season.

 

            MR. INCE: First of all, I can't speak to many of the things that may be going on right now because it's all under TIR and I'm not working on that particular file. I will say to you that we will work with the crew, we will work with the Lunenburg Marine Museum Society and we will provide that assistance this particular vessel work on its schedule, fix the things that the day-to-day crew will work on once they get hired and start the work and we look forward to a wonderful sailing season.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: My understanding is even though it didn't sail last year, crew was hired and paid. I'm just wondering, were they paid out of your department and if so, how many and what was the amount?

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, they were paid out of our department because we are still responsible for the operational funding. The $650,000. To say that, what their duties are basic duties that most crew would do on a vessel. For the training, maintenance, and just the scheduling and do on.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Your department is responsible for the operational funding. I'm just wondering how many students are hired for this season?

 

            MR. INCE: We'll find out and get that information for you. I'm not sure how many students are hired for this season.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Do we know the number of crew that will be hired?

 

            MR. INCE: I don't have a number for you but from what from what I understand it would be probably the same as last year, probably the same total. But I'll get you the numbers so that we can confirm that. I don't know the number of how many are going to be hired for this year.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Do we know though if there will be any students hired?

 

            MR. INCE: First of all those who are going to be on the vessel have to qualified so I don't know there are people who are going to come that have the qualifications and can sail on the vessel.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I guess the reason why I'm asking is because I've had some requests from some students that are interesting in applying so will they apply through your department or where would they actually find the information to apply.

 

            MR. INCE: No, they would apply to the Lunenburg Marine Museum Society because they are responsible. We provide the funding and we provide the assistance through them because they manage to store and all the other operations of the vessel as well.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Has the funding been provided to them already? Do they have that set amount? Is it in their hands and they disperse it, or . . .

 

            MR. INCE: The funding is usually given half and half. I guess the budget has been approved so I guess there will something being advanced to them.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Are you able to provide any details or elaborate at all on what the season is looking like, is Bluenose II out of the country, is it heading to the New England states. I know that there is a fair amount of financial investment that's being used in advertising now for the New England states area to attract tourists, I'm just wondering if you're aware of any information on that, if they're sailing in that area.

 

            MR. INCE: I can't answer that because we haven't finalized the schedule, also as you are aware there is still work going on in TIR in the project that they've been assigned to help the completion of this particular vessel.

 

            MS. MCFARLANE: Was there any advertising for Bluenose II put in the Doers and Dreamers Guide with any indication of where it would be this season.

 

            MR. INCE: I don't think that will come to fruition until we've got a schedule done and everything else.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I know my questions are rather quick so when they advertise in the Doers and Dreamers Guide is there a set budget from your department to pay for advertising and does that come from your department, or who pays for that advertising.

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, we would pay, we would help to promote that.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Do we have that figure, that amount that's out of your department for that advertising.

 

            MR. INCE: No, but I will get that for you as well.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I'm just going to switch over here now to the Marine Heritage Study. It was launched in October 2014 and the goal of the project was to chart a new course for marine heritage management and development. The study will determine what is required to support a marine archeology program and of course strategies to protect the underwater resources, which is a great initiative.

 

            We know that there has been a Saint Mary's graduate, an archaeologist hired - Jonathan Kyte of Seahorse Cultural Resource Management Services - and he is sort of undertaking or overtaking this study in leading in. I believe they indicated that the study would be done early 2015. Can you provide an update to us on that?

 

            MR. INCE: I understand that they are putting together a review. They are finalizing it and I am looking forward to being briefed on that once that happens.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: So are you aware of how much - did the study cost anything? Was Mr. Kyte paid? If so, was he paid out of your department?

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, and I will get you the number for that as well of how much he has been paid because I think that's where you are going, correct?

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Yes, I'd like to know how much he was paid, okay. I'd also like to know about the study, if it - did he have any consultations with actual experts and scientists in that field?

 

            MR. INCE: As I said, I'm looking forward to being briefed on that. I know they've had finished the study and they're looking at putting everything together and then I'll be briefed and I could better answer that question once I have been briefed.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: So when are you anticipating meeting him and being briefed on it? Is he briefing you before he actually goes public with the study?

 

            MR. INCE: Well as I said, I still need to be briefed. Once I am briefed and given all the information, then I can determine what the department is going to do and where we're going to move and what direction we're going to move in.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I'm just going to go to some questions with regards to more or less some constituency issues and people who have raised some questions with me. The Town of Pictou specifically and the constituency of Pictou West has a number of historic buildings. In fact I purchased one here a number of years ago. It's funny, we even have a number of tourists who will come into our office wondering if there is any funding out there for restoration. I'm just wondering if you can provide a little bit of information; if someone was interested in restoring and actually what are the guidelines. What specifically is it that determines it to be an historic property?

 

            MR. INCE: This is a little bit like déjà vu because I just had sort of similar questions earlier (Interruption) No, that's okay, you weren't here. We do have a program for heritage properties, called the Heritage Development Fund which provides $150,000 to people who have registered heritage properties.

 

            Also there is another fund that they can access, the Communities Facilities Improvement Fund.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: The Communities Facilities Improvement Fund - is that only in reference to historic properties?

 

MR. INCE: No . . .

 

MS. MACFARLANE: Could like the deCoste Entertainment Centre tap into funding from that as well?

 

            MR. INCE: It's a program - first of all I'll tell you it's $633,000 and it's available to communities and organizations that may have a facility that needs work. For example, they have boilers or a bathroom that needs work or they have a kitchen that needs some work, a roof, things like that.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: So the Heritage Development Fund is $150,000.

 

            MR. INCE: That's correct.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: And the other one that you just mentioned what's the funding for it.

 

            MR. INCE: It's $633,000.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Is there any hope in increasing the Heritage Development Fund? I did walk in, I believe, when the member from the NDP was asking that and $150,000 is peanuts, really. I just know with myself purchasing a 200 year old stone building and putting windows in, the windows alone were over $50,000 so I'm just wondering how you see $150,000 being any benefit. Would that amount of money go to just one person?

 

            MR. INCE: No, the fund is actually there to help with minor repairs on these heritage properties but you have to be aware that that fund a number of years ago was only $50,000 so it's been increased to $150,000.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Was that increased under you?

 

            MR. INCE: No, that was prior to me.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I'm just sticking to, of course, my constituency here for a moment so I'm just wondering with regards to the McCullough Heritage Centre in Pictou I'm just wondering if you have an amount of what was given to them in the last year.

 

            MR. INCE: After looking at all the documents they're not a Community Museum Assistance Program museum but we have provided them money and funding for a project that they did in the total of $15,000, and if you want to know the project was for interpreted renewal.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Back to heritage properties, like in our community we're really struggling, we have three to five that there is some owners but a couple of them live in Europe, they had expectations of coming here and renovating them, thought Pictou was a great sport as a tourist destination, and it truly is. I mean it's a beautiful little shire town right on the Pictou Harbour.

 

            A number of them have struggled over the last couple of years because of our situation with Northern Pulp and of course the air quality. But what we're finding on a municipal level now is that we have a couple buildings that are just really becoming almost a dangerous issue for residents and a couple of them even had to have fences put around them.

 

            I'm just wondering would your department have any advice for us. We're wondering if they had to be torn down these beautiful historic buildings is there assistance for actually dismantling historic buildings.

 

            MR. INCE: I would recommend and suggest that if you have people in your community who are concerned and looking for something, there is a person in our department who they can speak to who they can speak to which can help them and provide them the information and the advice they may be looking for. I can give you the name of that person, Kevin Barrett.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I look forward to that. That would be a great assistance to us because we are deeply concerned about these buildings. Then it leads into the question that we're concerned about, we have a number of churches too, we have about six churches for 3100 people and of course they're all scrabbling and not knowing what to do. Would that gentleman in your department be someone that we could speak to as well about the churches?

 

            MR. INCE: If you're talking about heritage properties period or heritage, then he's the heritage expert.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Okay, very well. Thank you for that. Just with regards to the deCoste Entertainment Centre in Pictou, this is where there is funding, like I said, coming from the three levels of government to assist in a study to potentially see if perhaps our library will be attached to the deCoste Entertainment Centre and put under one roof. My question is in the last year, has there been any money given to the deCoste Entertainment Centre? And would there be any assistance to them in having to potentially change the structure of their building in order to accommodate the Pictou Library moving in there with them?

 

            MR. INCE: We do provide ongoing operation funding for the deCoste Centre and we will continue to provide that funding. I don't have the numbers right now but I will get you those numbers for what we provide in operational funding.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Earlier you had mentioned with regards to federal funding, I'm just wondering when there are transfers made what is the amount that goes into your department from federal funding?

 

            MR. INCE: Is there a specific program that you are inquiring about?

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Not at all, I just wanted to with the amount of money that the province receives federally when it's up to the province then to decide where that money goes, I'm wondering what your department, what percentage of that transfer money you actually get to have in your department.

 

            MR. INCE: Okay, first of all, there is about a million dollars of funding that goes to Acadian Affairs for French language services and then there is $680,000 that's coming from the feds for the CAP program and then everything else is based on program specific. We jointly with the feds, if we're working on certain projects there may be some money but I can't give you anything in detail at this moment. Maybe I can. Just going back to your deCoste Centre, we're looking at $34,000.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Annually?

 

            MR. INCE: Yes.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I guess just going back federally, you mentioned that you are working on some, you're having discussions, have you actually had an opportunity to meet the federal minister? Minister Shelly Glover.

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, I have.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: How many times?

 

            MR. INCE: Actually, one time.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Okay, and what were those discussions surrounding? Were they anything, any projects that we can look for?

 

            MR. INCE: As a matter of fact there is one national project we all should be looking and be concerned with and that's Canada's 150^th and how we may be able to contribute. At the time that I met her, it was just a very high overview of what they are looking for. They did not give us any clear direction other than they want the communities to bring to them what they'd like to do because they don't want to control it.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: So at this point in time are there any details from you department on what your initiatives are for the 150^th?

 

            MR. INCE: As a matter of fact, we're having conversations with Mr. Kerr right now around some opportunities for Canada's 150^th and communities partaking.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Thank you very much. Just looking at full-time employees, I'm just wondering how many FTE reductions were there in this budget?

 

            MR. INCE: There were 10 across my department.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: How many of those are unfilled vacancies?

 

            MR. INCE: Six.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Are these reductions and FTE's managers or just, not just, but entry level?

 

            MR. INCE: No, they weren't managers. There was one EC and one BU in Acadian Affairs. There was one BU position in African Nova Scotian Affairs that I think was a vacant position.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Thank you. So looking at the reduction then in FTE's, what is the actual cost savings to your department for that?

 

            MR. INCE: The total for my department was 296.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: So $296,000 in savings?

 

            MR. INCE: Yes. That's only from the FTEs, we had other reductions in the department.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Such as?

 

            MR. INCE: CCH programming and staffing reductions total $1.8 million.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: With regard to your ministerial travel in the last year, what is that total and where were your out of the province trips to? If you could highlight some of the bigger trips that you took out of the province?

 

            MR. INCE: Do you want to talk about 2013-14?

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Yes, 2013-14, yes.

 

            MR. INCE: Out of province - air fare to Toronto was $1,295. That was the only out-of-province trip I had taken. Just to give you some background, it was to meet and attend a government meeting but also to attend a Black History Month event in Toronto which I was invited to.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Thank you. Would that have been your opportunity as well when you met Minister Glover?

 

            MR. INCE: Sorry, say that again?

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Was that the time when you met the federal minister, Minister Glover?

 

            MR. INCE: I met the federal minister at the FPT conference in P.E.I.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Are there any future dates set up to meet with any federal counterparts?

 

            MR. INCE: There is an intent. Whether it all comes to fruition, I don't know but there is, yes.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I think I am complete. Thank you so much.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Ms. Peterson-Rafuse.

 

            HON. DENISE PETERSON-RAFUSE: Minister, I know you had made mention earlier that you're not responsible in terms of the decision with the change - I'll say change instead of cut - in the Film Tax Credit. However, I think that there needs to be drawn a parallel that you represent Communities, Culture and Heritage in the province, and that is an integral part of what the film and television industry adds to our communities. It adds to our culture of who we are and expresses to the world who we are and what we're about. It encourages people to travel from around the world to come to see our beautiful province and often there will be the film productions that focus on our heritage, so it tells people and encourages people to come here.

 

            I don't think we can separate them at all; they are intertwined. I know you said earlier that your department is doing a statistical analysis of the creative economy. Could you give me a little bit more detail on what that statistical analysis is?

 

            MR. INCE: You may not be aware, but are you asking about the Cultural Satellite Account?

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: You had mentioned earlier on today that you were producing like a financial analysis of the creative culture, looking at what we have in the province. That's what I want to find out more from you, are you looking at what is generated in terms of dollars in the province, economic spin-off? Is that about film? Is that television? Is that about libraries? What are the criteria? What's the framework around that?

 

            MR. INCE: Well, first of all, let me tell you that this all came about in September 2014 when a joint project between Communities, Culture and Heritage and the federal government's Stats Canada had released some statistical data to show the value of the culture industries to the GDP of Canada - you weren't here but I'll explain it to you. It shows that the culture's effect on the GDP brings it up to $47.8 billion. It accounted for about 650,000 jobs in 2010.

 

            What we are going to be doing now is with the Cultural Satellite Account, for the first time ever, we're going to be able to have a clear understanding of the economic importance of the cultural sector within our province. It will provide us with precise and reliable information that will help to quantify the economic value of arts, culture, heritage, and sport within our province.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you. Obviously from the information that you just provided, what that is saying is that the cultural industry, the creative economy, is a critical factor to the economy of not only Nova Scotia but all of Canada and has an effect on the well-being, the dollars that are spent in our community. So would you agree that a study of that magnitude or that nature should have been undertaken before your government made a decision to make changes that are now creating a major crisis in that very industry that people are leaving?

 

            MR. INCE: First of all, let's establish and remember that you are talking, one, about a film industry and then two, you're talking about a cultural sector of which that film industry is part of. Our government has shown on many levels through the Throne Speech and others, how they value culture. Through our department, we are constantly going through all those communities, the organizations, we're being invited to participate in those cultural activities. So yes, the cultural industry, the cultural sector is very important to the economic growth and prosperity of our province and moving forward. Now you have to remember also that this is the first time ever that data has been compiled to show that value.

 

            I understand where your question is going, but this is still pretty new. It's all being compiled for us to be able to show the value that it has had on our province. That information is going to be released in June. It's going to be whittled down from the national perspective down to our provincial perspective to show that value to our province. That data isn't available yet, it will be in June. Once that comes out then we will be able to better direct and show people that value that culture has to our specific society; in the provincial society, I should say.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Will you be following that up in a year or a two year period to redo that? If you're going to be doing an analysis of what you're speaking of, you're still going to have the figures of $130 to $150 million a year that the film and television industry brings to our province. We're seeing them moving out already within a 24 hour period, so there is going to be a major effect on that analysis that you are just finalizing. You're going to be using the old figures when the industry has been built up over the last 20 years where it has been a great contributor to our economy. The value of this partnership with the federal government - the numbers you're going to provide to Nova Scotians are not going to be factual at that time.

 

            What follow-up will you do in a year or two as a province to show the impact of the decision if it's not changed in the next number of weeks or months.

 

            MR. INCE: What will be put in place is an annual review to show the impact that the cultural sector has had on the province from year to year and that will be moving forward. Again, I have to please remind you that we're talking about a whole sector and not just one industry.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I realize that, but it's a very prominent and important industry. I have experienced it myself by living in the Village of Chester, Nova Scotia where Haven has brought in $50 million to a little village of about 2,000, a municipality of about 10,000. There is not a business - small, medium, or probably a large business - that could come into our community that would have put those kinds of dollars in our community. Minister, I saw it almost every day when they were filming in Chester.

 

            My fear is that politics is getting in the way of real decisions that affect people. I've talked to people since this decision and people are very upset. They feel like their whole lives are being ripped away from them because they've invested so much and effort into this sector. I have seen in my community what it means by renting out monthly, I've seen seniors that couldn't put money on the table but they made money through Haven; they got some extra parts. I've seen people that would move out of their house and rent it to cast members of Haven or some of the workers.

 

I have seen businesses started from youth starting businesses, catering businesses; I've seen hair dressers being a part of the Haven production. I've seen even small community groups, like church groups, that are making money during fundraising because you go to one of the silent auctions that are popular now, and sitting on a table are a lineup of marketing products from Haven that are donations which has quite a value to them because people in the community want them.

 

I've been in the position as you as a minister and it may not be your department but I also know that you can stand tall and say look this is not good, this is not good, we really have to make the proper decision and what people will say to politicians is admit if you make a mistake, correct it and go on because there are people's lives.

 

Now for example, minister, I received an email - and I've received many, many, many, many prior to and after the budget. I know that I'm in the Opposition, so you're thinking that I'm just going to say the opposite of whatever the government brings forward and that is part of that job, but this is not coming from me. This is coming from people in the industry in the Province of Nova Scotia who are feeling the effect already of a decision that has been made in the budget.

 

It seems like your government is not getting it because it keeps talking about that perception that the dollars are being spent internationally, on companies that are not paying taxes here. But it is those international companies like through Haven that have supported the industry over the number of years - they can come into this little province and hire a local film and television production company, and that trickles right down through to the person who does the pedicures or the manicures on one of the movie stars in a small community like Chester. It is just enormous.

 

            For any person or politician to say, oh they're not paying taxes so taxpayers out there should appreciate what we're doing because these people aren't putting money into our society - that is totally incorrect. It does trickle down. I know it's difficult for you and part of this whole job is a difficult job. The key is to understand the ramifications of a decision that might be being made only by five or ten people and how many people it affects.

 

            I would like to, on your behalf, read this e-mail. This comes from a lady who has a company and she wrote me this afternoon. She said:

 

Now our fears have become true. The news from the Nova Scotia budget has crushed our industry. The Nova Scotia government has effectively made our Film Tax Credit non-competitive. The FTC has now been reduced by 75 per cent making it one of the worst tax credit program in North America. We have been in shock most of the day, yesterday, with my mind reeling thinking that this just can't be happening. What will we do? Where will we move, where will we go? For months we have been working with a U.K. producer to bring in a seven one-hour documentary series to Halifax with a budget of $3.5 million. With these changes, this U.K. producer will ultimately go to Toronto to use their FTC. Oh, we will look at the numbers and play a little game, but ultimately he will move on with his project.

 

I don't really think the Nova Scotia Government understands the impact of their changes. It might have not been their intention but they have made the FTC unbankable in Canada. You can bank a refundable labour tax credit but you cannot bank a non-refundable one. The Minister of Finance herself said that she doesn't know the impact of this new course of action. Does it not seem imprudent to take action without any consultation, advertisement or analysis? In all my years I have never been so shocked, disappointed and angry at my government for completely abandoning an entire industry and seemingly not really making any effort to work together.

 

Consultation on these changes need to happen right away with the film industry stakeholders and the Finance Department. I hope you and other MLAs will begin a conversation and request that this meeting takes place immediately.

 

            It's signed by Cindy D'Orsay, Producer and Managing Partner; and Alastair Meux, Director of Photography, from British North American Pictures, Inc.

 

            Minister, I do not believe that any one sitting in the government wants this to happen. I can't even imagine that - and I know you. I've met you, you've been at events that I've been at, I have seen how you interact with the public, how you support the Ross Farm Museum. In fact, that little museum makes money from making props for the film industry, even in that little community of New Ross, the effect is going to be felt there.

 

            I guess that I'm here today to try to take - I know it's really difficult in the political world but I'm trying to take politics off the table and talk about the reality of people's lives. This will certainly affect the Province of Nova Scotia. People aren't saying this just to talk. I mean, having lost already This Hour Has 22 Minutes - this is a national program, they even know of it in the States, when you travel through the States - to lose that in less than 24 hours is mindboggling.

 

            I know that in the House you're not allowed to bring props, but I wanted to bring my old, old Kermit the Frog that I had as a puppet and sit it on my desk and use it today because I thought if I did that that might draw some attention because I'm sure that most of my colleagues in the government, at one time or other, had played with a little Muppet character of some sort as a puppet if was not because of some of younger members or the older members with their children or grandchildren. A Jim Henson production that has been cut today. It is real.

 

            We also lost, in the Chester area, a $12 million production that was going to be produced this summer by the gentleman that produces Haven. I'm telling you, I mean we go down, I don't know if you're a wrestling fan, but we would walk down to Chester and we would see the wrestler Edge in Chester, right? And the rumour this year, although Haven was supposed to have finished its last production last year, the rumour was, and they were working on it, was that they were doing another season this summer because it's just so popular and believe it or not, William Shatner was going to be one of the stars in it.

 

            I've been at the Haven production. I have gone over and I've seen what they've done. Everybody, even the local garages, was making money off of Haven. Changing tires, putting air in the tires, putting oil in the trucks, and if you went over to our community rink which is a curling club and a rink, and if you would have seen the action over there and in fact, that rink had its whole roof rebuilt. It didn't need a cent from the government because of the money Haven was putting in. Haven didn't just stay in Chester - they did filming in Halifax, they did filming in Lunenburg.

 

It's Friday afternoon, I really hope that you as a minister, who actually has more ability than your backbenchers, picks up the phone or talks to the Premier or your other Cabinet colleagues and say what are you doing here? Because people are not just saying it - it's a reality. I can send you every email that I'm receiving; they are not just doing it to make noise. They are scared to death. I talked to a young producer today and he had tears in his eyes because he said I don't know what I'm going to do, I'll be leaving.

 

That is the thing that I don't think the government understands. This is not an industry that starts here and just say they stay here. You know that travel is part of the life of film and television industry; that's just the way it is. They go where the work is, where the best credit is. So, it's difficult to hear that whoever sold your minister on the thought that okay, this is a grant, this costs money - there are things in our province, as you know, that you have to sustain. You look at it as an investment and I don't know what investment company in Nova Scotia that would say that investing $24 to $25 million for a $130 million return is not your best investment that you probably have in the books in the province.

 

I do know because I have experienced it. This is nothing against those staff people, but I do know that many who work in Finance and Treasury Board never liked the tax credit. They're the ones that are looking at this and saying oh, we write a cheque every year and we don't get any money back on the other side of our ledger, so this is a cost to us. It's unfortunate that there's no vision, thinking outside the box, understanding the spinoff that this has in our economy.

 

I can't imagine even in our little community what's going to happen this summer in terms of losing that $12 million production. Well, I guess I should say that I can imagine because what's going to happen is that it's going to have that domino downloading effect and you're going to have people unemployed, you're going to have small businesses closing their doors. If you have an opportunity on the weekend, you should look at a film on YouTube, a film put together by the merchants in Chester. They actually talk about the difference that Haven made in their village to exist as a business because their doors were closing.

 

            There's nobody out there shopping, our society is getting older as we know and we want to try to keep the youth here. This industry is one of the best industries. It's a gold mine for us, an absolute gold mine in terms of bringing dollars and encouraging youth to stay in our province. I'm not making it up, I don't think everybody else is making it up.

 

            If you look at the other provinces, history shows us this is not a good decision. Look at P.E.I., the place of Anne of Green Gables where the Chinese culture loves Anne of Green Gables but their film and television production basically dried up because they need that incentive. Also in New Brunswick, out West - they're now just trying to recover from a terrible mistake.

 

            I want to make sure and I think you understand probably better than anybody in the Cabinet because of your history - I want you to relook at the fact that it takes years to build an industry like this and it's all about trust and that trust was really broken. I was at the Haven site when they were doing tours during the election. The gentleman who was running for the Liberals was there - the whole talk was about how the Liberals believed in the industry and they believed in the fact that they would continue it to 2020. I know we're playing on words when you come back and say yes, but it's still there until 2020. But it's not there in the form that it was. Whether we use the words "cut" or "change", the words aren't going to make a difference.

 

            We're already seeing those companies leaving - they're not just going to the Chronicle Herald or going on the national news and saying this just to create problems. They're just in the height of their planning and that's another part that seems to be missing, the understanding that this is not an industry that can turn itself inside out so quickly. They have to plan. There's a lot of lead time - you have actors and actresses that you have to hire, you have to have auditions, you have to find the facilities in the communities, they have prop scouts out there trying to find props. It's long range planning. If you think you can change this in next year's budget and you'll have that thriving film industry again, that won't happen. It will take a long time for them to come back but you have a window of opportunity to make a difference.

 

            I've heard what the colleague over there said but that is going to be yours, you're going to wear that the same as we did because he brought up about the ferry. I will be honest about that, the fact is we could have done a better job in transitioning the ferry. For me, as a politician, I have absolutely no problem to say that we could have done a better job transitioning the ferry. We knew that it was not sustainable - you're finding that out yourself - but just to cut off at the knees, look where I am in the House now and look where you are. If you can't see from our recent experience and you can't see from what has happened in P.E.I. and New Brunswick and out West, you're going to make the same mistake. This is major, it is major.

 

            I'm going to talk about some other things now because I don't think it's fair to keep on going on to you because I just know from what I know of you in the short period of time since I've met you, this is probably tearing you apart and I know you will try your best to do what you can in your role as a minister. I just want to check the time. Okay. I don't want to, I know how difficult it is and I know where your heart is and I know that you understand that.

 

            What I would like to do is just change the topic and this is one that you and I have had many discussions on too - you probably thought oh no, I know what's coming now. I want to talk to you about the Special Places Protection Act. What I would like to ask you is, are you aware that there is actually supposed to be an advisory committee on the Special Places Protection Act?

 

            MR. INCE: Yes.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: And can you tell me when the last time they met?

 

            MR. INCE: Actually, the advisory committee has not met since the 1990s. There is legislation in place for that, but they haven't met since the 1990s.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Who is on the committee? Are they still alive?

 

            MR. INCE: There is no one on that particular committee at this time, but we are moving forward to come up with revised legislation for that.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So when you say revised legislation, does that mean that you are actually going to be revising the whole Special Places Protection Act in the province?

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, we're going to revise the whole Act. What that will involve is consultations with the community and stakeholders to actually see how this Act will better meet their needs.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Are you able to give me a timeline?

 

            MR. INCE: I'd say we'd be looking at that by the end of the calendar year.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So this calendar year so you will probably be bringing in the legislation in the fall? The sitting of the legislature?

 

            MR. INCE: I would say that's our intent.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: It has as part of the legislation a committee that is supposed to exist. So what happens where the committee hasn't been sitting but the legislation actually says a committee exists and if the public wants to access that committee, that they are able to? That committee is available like any other committee where people can come in as witnesses and provide information and support for the minister also. I'm wondering what process do we have in place right now that enables the people of Nova Scotia to do that, since it's legislated which means that it's law.

 

            MR. INCE: This particular committee is an advisory committee to the minister and I've had meetings with people in the community - as you are aware of already - to discuss their particular issues or concerns with relation to the Special Places Protection Act.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you. So in the Fall legislation, will you have the committee as part of that?

 

            MR. INCE: Well, again, as I've stated a little earlier we will have to wait until the consultation and we speak to all the people. As I said we are going to consult with community stakeholders, so if they are making that a recommendation in those consultations we will review all that information and then move forward from there.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: There might be a possibility, then, that the advisory committee to the minister may not exist then in the Fall legislation. You're not sure until the consultations.

 

            MR. INCE: That's correct.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Can you explain to me what that consultation process will look like. Will you be travelling around the province and having like an open house in the different communities? I did that with the Housing Strategy - I went into different communities and had it opened for anybody who wanted to come and discuss the Housing Strategy in the province. Can you tell me what that's going to look like, your consultation process?

 

            MR. INCE: That hasn't been finalized at this point, but we will be hoping to move forward in the next couple of months on that.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Okay so if we're moving forward a couple of months, probably by June if I ask for an outline of the consultation process, that will be available?

 

            MR. INCE: I would ask you to stay tuned, stay in touch with me, and we will be able to give you some more details around that.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So in the meantime if there needs to be a discussion with respect to archeological sites - that's part of what that committee did was too identified where those areas need to be protected - what system is in place right now to do that.

 

            MR. INCE: Since the 1990s, the minister has provided that role.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So the minister has replaced the committee.

 

            MR. INCE: Yes.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So therefore I guess the question is then, to have an area protected if there is some concern on an archeological basis, presently that would be up to you.

 

            MR. INCE: Yes.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So as you know where I'm going, if we take a little trip to Oak Island, who protects Oak Island?

 

            MR. INCE: Oak Island is protected under the OIT - the Oak Island Treasure Act - but any findings on that island that are uncovered or revealed would fall under the Special Places Protection Act. When I say findings, I'm talking about precious metals or anything that have been altered by man. Metals, gems, any regular findings that are basically commonplace in most archeological finds - those are protected too, but they go to the museums.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Can you tell me who monitors that to ensure that if an item is found that it is brought to your office immediately, and how it is protected when it is found? When you find a heritage object, as you can appreciate, the archeologist have a method of preserving and protecting anything that is found whether it's in the water or on land. What process takes place to ensure that that it's both delivered and it is protected properly when it is transported to your office?

 

            MR. INCE: To back up a bit, when an item is uncovered or found and seemed to be uncovered, they are to inform our department. Then the department or the museums or the archeologists will go out and assess and do all the things that they need to do to ensure that those items are protected and if they are transported - as you mentioned, that they are transported in the proper manner.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: How do we know that they will be reported?

 

            MR. INCE: Well I can only speak to the current people who are doing the work, they're aware of the procedures and what we are asking them to do and they have fully cooperative with us to this point.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: How do you know?

 

            MR. INCE: Well I know because they've told us that they've cooperative with us. They've given us a number of items that were uncovered.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So you think it's all the items that they have found.

 

            MR. INCE: Well I can't speculate on what else might have been found or anything. It's the same as it's speculation if they come to you and say that somebody has found something, unless you see it yourself or you have somebody who is a professional that can tell you that this is worth what somebody is saying.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So would you say there is a gap on the system because we're trying the words of others and somebody coming from not even from our own province and may not appreciate the value of those items to the people of Nova Scotia? Is there a gap in the system?

 

            MR. INCE: I would agree with you and that's why we're looking at doing the review and looking at trying to ensure that Nova Scotia's archeological treasures are preserved and saved for all Nova Scotians to view and see.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I thank you very much for your honesty on that. Now, do you believe that Oak Island is part of our culture?

 

            MR. INCE: It certainly is, when you talk about the fact that there are items that have been unearthed that the museum has now, that is a part of our cultural heritage.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: As a result of that, can you answer to me does it pose a question in your mind why the searching on the island is under DNR rather than under your department where it is a cultural heritage site.

 

            MR. INCE: Well it's also of value to the Department of Natural Resources as well so it's under both departments. As you may be aware because we've had the conversations with you before, we're currently working with our colleagues at DNR to develop administrative procedures so that we can address the concerns that you're talking about.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: As you know though, unfortunately it's another one of those timing things because without having the parameters of what you're hoping to see in the future it can take two or three years so therefore something could be discovered in that time frame. As you know, the definitions of a heritage object and a treasure are really up for debate. We don't have a clear understanding or definition in our province with respect to that.

 

            DNR is mining, they have a mining permit. Does that not concern you in your role as a minister to protect the heritage, protect through professional archeologists, that what's actually taking place on the island is being done as a mining permit?

 

            MR. INCE: I would suggest to you, as I've said to you on many occasions, that the Special Places and Protection Act is doing what it has been set out to do currently. As we've just discussed, I've already suggested that there are going to be some changes that have to be with community stakeholders and consultations with the community so that we can better ensure that the things that we've just discussed in terms of maybe the gap or the loophole or whatever you would like to call it is there covered so that we can ensure that all our treasures are protected even further.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Minister, can you give me a time frame on that? We talked about it last session too and I just would like to get a more precise idea from you. Are we looking at this consultation process being finished in a month, two months, three months.

 

            MR. INCE: What I will do is keep you in the loop as I said earlier, and try to give you a sense of what's going on with that because I can't give you any definite dates or anything at this point.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I also would like to ask if you have had any discussions with the Aboriginal community, with respect to the Special Places Protection Act in our province.

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, our department has had conversations with the Aboriginal communities.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Have you had them yourself as minister.

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, I have on a couple of occasions. I've had a couple of conversations, yes.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: And may I ask what they're saying about the Special Places Protection Act?

 

            MR. INCE: Well, the individuals I had conversations with, they were currently more concerned about specific areas in their community. Overall, they indicated that there have been no real concerns brought forward by the Aboriginal community under the Special Places Protection Act.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So no real concerns? I'm not just talking Oak Island but throughout the Province of Nova Scotia?

 

            MR. INCE: Throughout the province, they have not addressed any major concerns with that particular policy, no.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So can you tell me the reason why you're looking at bringing in new legislation for the Special Places Protection Act? What changes you're forecasting, that you're hearing?

 

            MR. INCE: As I said, not at this time because it's all being developed and I will keep you in the loop when we are moving forward and give you more information that you may be requiring.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Okay, I think the importance for the community and those people looking at the protection of Oak Island is the time frame because, as you know, the treasure hunting is taking place now. It's very much like the film and television industry - the fact is that if you take the time before you come back, these people will be gone and it will be the same way with Oak Island.

 

            I know they brought you in some items. Can you tell us what they brought in to the department?

 

            MR. INCE: Do you mean the items that were recovered?

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Yes, the items that you ended up writing a letter actually to them over. When I say them, the investors in Oak Island they have the treasure hunting permit. Based on the information that you received in your office and once it was analyzed, it encouraged you enough to write a letter and suggest that they have an archeologist onsite.

 

            MR. INCE: To answer your first part, in terms of discussing what was found, I think I mentioned to you before and I will mention it again, most of those items are in the museum under the curator being monitored. They're doing what they have to do to preserve and make sure that those items are protected. The museums have a whole host of stuff that they don't always provide to the public but it will be available some time but they are still being analyzed.

 

            It's a very slow, careful process because we're talking about items that have been underground and been removed for hundreds of years. That process is not a very quick process. I don't know if you've ever been behind the scenes of the museums, but the way they catalogue and preserve and store and protect items is a very long, arduous process. To that, I can't really speak to the items yet or even give you a list of them because they are still analysing.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Can you tell me who owns those items?

 

            MR. INCE: The province.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So the items that were brought to you from Oak Island are owned by the province. The treasure seekers do not own them at all?

 

            MR. INCE: When items are uncovered and delivered to the province to look at and to analyze and so on, you have to remember the Special Places Protection Act is there to protect any archeological find which says that once they are uncovered, they have to be given to the province. They have to be turned over to the province.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: What's the definition? If they're a treasure, don't they usually get 90 per cent of that treasure?

 

            MR. INCE: Who gets the 90 per cent?

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Those that have the permit to, the licensees.

 

            MR. INCE: Yes, based on the way the definition of the Oak Island Treasure Act, a treasure is any item that has been altered. If you bring up a piece of gold and you alter it to make it into a ring or anything like that, it is a treasure, it's not in its natural state. Anything more or less in its natural state.

 

            We can argue if you find a fork or a bowl, those are not treasures. They're archeological finds.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Is that a clear definition?

 

            MR. INCE: There is a clear definition of that.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So they can't argue in court that if they find a goblet that's 1,000 years old and it's got rubies on it and it's been altered because it's fine metal, it's made out of gold

 

            MR. INCE: That's a treasure.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: That's a treasure?

 

            MR. INCE: That's a treasure.

 

            MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: They can walk off with that treasure . . .

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Time has elapsed.

 

            The honourable Acting Deputy House Leader.

 

            MR. JOACHIM STROINK: Madam Chairman, I move the committee do now rise to report progress back to the House.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: The motion is carried.

 

We stand adjourned.

 

            [The subcommittee adjourned at 3:51 p.m.]