HALIFAX, TUESDAY, APRIL 16, 2013

 

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY

 

2:15 P.M.

 

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Clarrie MacKinnon

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll begin the Subcommittee of the Whole House on Supply, Red Room edition. We will continue the estimates of the Department of Community Services. The Independent member for Dartmouth North has 39 minutes remaining in the one hour that has been allocated to him.

 

The honourable member for Dartmouth North.

 

MR. TREVOR ZINCK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Madam Minister, I'm going to start with the issue of special needs, in particular some comments around special diets. Last year during the Budget Debates I brought up the issue about the recent, let's say tweaking of the policy around special needs so that we have some consistency around the province, as your government has mentioned in its press releases.

 

I want to talk specifically about the special diet and go back to the comments I made last year in regard to helping the medical profession have a better understanding as to what the department is actually requesting of income assistance recipients. I made mention last year that I thought it would have been a good idea for the department to have a conversation with perhaps the College of Physicians and Surgeons to allow them to have that better understanding that we are now requiring every year that income assistance recipients have to have their files updated. I made comments last year in regard to a family doctor having only 15 minutes of their time to fill out these forms. We talked last year about perhaps tweaking the forms to make it easier for the doctors.

 

I know that the department has hired several more outside adjudicators to do appeal hearings and I'm going to say that that's probably a result of some of the appeals that have been launched in the last year and a half around the special needs aspect. I'm wondering if you can just give me an update as to whether or not there is some uptake on that.

 

I will tell you that my office, both my assistant and I have taken it upon ourselves to actually meet with some of the doctors. As doctors have retired, trying to get some of our constituents new doctors. We've gone in and actually met with the doctors to try to better explain to them what the issue is around the forms and why it's important.

 

I would like to say that we've had some real good uptake on that, we've had some real good co-operation by a lot of family physicians but there still - and I guess it's not something that the doctors really want to come out and say - but there's rumblings of individuals, former politicians who've come to me and said what is the government doing around this special needs diet and they've actually gone to the length of saying that their own family physicians have made mention of the recent changing - or I won't say change but implications around the special diets and the adjustments the special needs have had and their frustration with this.

 

I'm wondering if you can just give me a quick update as to where that's at, if anything has been done.

 

HON. DENISE PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you very much to the member for a very important question with respect to special diets. We do understand the significance of providing and supporting those needs with special diets. It's critical that the individuals and the families that we support are supported in their health and that is a key element.

 

Of course as society is growing older, that makes it even more significant of the issues that we're facing. We know that we do have a lot of health issues in the Province of Nova Scotia. Because of our understanding, we have increased from 2009 from $5.8 million to $9 million now, in terms of what we budget for special needs.

 

The other point you made and the request you made in budget estimates before, we took your advice and we were looking at that. We actually have a process presently that has been established for special needs and we're doing a review. That's where we will be engaging and consulting with advocacy groups, people like yourself, the medical profession. It will take a great deal of work to bring this together because there's a lot of opinions and theories on what would qualify under special diets, et cetera but we do have a base to work from. I'm very pleased that I can tell you today that that process has been initiated.

 

MR. ZINCK: That's good to hear. I know there has been a lot of talk. I know that over the last year we've gone from a point where we're now referring people to dietitians but then the overload falls on the dietitians and then the dietitians are saying why are all these income assistance recipients coming to us?

 

Again, it comes down to communication, so that the end result when an income assistance recipient presents themselves to the medical profession, that they're being treated with a level of respect. We know that we've heard about mental health patients going to the hospitals and over the years of how they've been treated. It's very, very important for the doctors to know that this isn't a question of whether or not somebody is trying to take advantage of a system that's in place, this is indeed a system or a policy within the department that would allow an individual, as you've made mention, to have that extra funding.

 

When I look at the majority of the folks who I deal with, who are dealing with a mental health issue or an addiction issue, again my assistant and I have done a tremendous amount of research over the last two years around the fact that a proper nutritional diet is essential to recovering from alcoholism or balancing off serotonin levels when it comes to depression and anxiety. There's a question around dietitians, family physicians and naturopathic practices but overall, I think we really need to strive for some clarity on this.

 

There's one particular amount of funding, $66 for high-calorie, high-protein diet. The line suggests that it's for individuals who are coming through cancer treatment or are recovering from major surgery and related illnesses. Well, I think some clarification needs to be put in place when we say related illnesses because when the requests go to special needs meetings, we're sitting down and we're making decisions on people's lives and trying to interpret what a physician has put on the paper, but the folks who are trying to interpret this and make a decision don't necessarily have a medical background. So some clarifications - and especially because now as we know, one in five Canadians suffer from mental health issues, we do see an increase in that. I'm encouraged to hear you say that we are reviewing - and I guess it is part of that overall ESIA revamp.

 

Now that the department has removed the child care portion out, moves like that are going to allow you to really focus in. Again, it's about getting that individual well enough by having them properly housed, safely housed and allowing them to have that proper balance of diet, but it has been an issue, again, around transportation funding. When we've seen the adjustments, or what Dartmouth will call, we're now just implementing the policy - the policy has always been there, we're just clarifying and implementing it. When we started that process some time ago, transportation became - well, we need 10 medical trips per month to qualify for a full bus pass. Well now that has gone from 10 trips to 12 trips.

 

At the time when this was announced, we were fighting for people who use their bus pass to go to the food bank; who use their bus pass to go to social clubs to deal with their mental health issues; to go to NA meetings or AA meetings. Early on we weren't acknowledging that. You talk to some physicians and they'll tell you - even a person who is in their dying days isn't going to see their family physician or their doctor 12 times a month. If it's to that point, they're going to be hospitalized.

 

To the credit of the department, we have had a number of cases where we've gone out and really fought to work with some of the groups that individuals would associate with and need to get to. We've had them put it on paper that this individual uses our resources or volunteers at the soup kitchen or the food bank and we've had some success, but again, we go back to asking the doctor to put this on paper, so when the doctor looks at, okay, you can walk one to four blocks or how many steps - when we have a situation where somebody is going to a social club or dealing with an addiction so they have to go to AA - I bring up AA because there are a lot of individuals who have to go to AA every day, but it's anonymous as well so it has been a bit of a sticking point to get somebody to go out and put it on paper so the department will allow them to have that bus pass. This is critical for some of the folks that I deal with. They need that interaction.

 

I think the fact that we rely so much on the doctor to do this - again, it puts that added stress on a family practitioner to - well, I don't know how many NA meetings or AA meetings you go to or social club, why do I have to put this on the paper? Therein lies the frustration with the department. I really encourage you to continue on with that and as long as I'm around, like I said, I'll always offer up my assistance to the department. Again, it's 98 per cent of what I deal with in my constituency office. It's a very crucial one, again, because when the transportation was taken away - we're talking about social isolation. That's what it pretty much became. When the bus strike went, I know my travel mileage went up because I was taking everybody to their appointments and in some respect I continue to do that because these folks have had their transportation clawed back.

 

It's important to me because over the years, based on the income that we allow individuals who rely on this system, in my opinion, we basically told them where they can live. Now we went through this step where we've taken the transportation away, in large part, from a large number of individuals so now we're saying we not only want you to live in these parts of these communities, we now want you to stay closed in.

 

I think we need to work through this. Again I will say I have full co-operation with the Portland Street office, with the Cole Harbour office when I have to be in contact with them, with the Halifax office. Sackville is a little tough but we do get through to them. They're always wondering why we're dealing with people in Sackville but I grew up in Sackville so a lot of people still call on me, so I'm interested. I will offer up any support I can and I'll continue to go on.

 

I think the medical profession, there's a level of anxiety and frustration there. I think we can alleviate all that and the end result will be, as I said, when an individual in receipt of income assistance walks into their office, they now have a better understanding of what they're dealing with, what's expected of them but overall, that respect factor is there because they deserve that.

 

I'm going to throw a couple of quick questions out there and you can respond to my last rant and then I'll go on to some quick questions, one in particular - child tax benefit, we don't include it in the incomes, it's for the child; MEP payments - maintenance enforcement payments - we could that as income but technically, when we look at it, we say well that's just somebody being responsible to their child. I'm wondering what the department's reasoning is for counting the maintenance enforcement payments and taking it dollar for dollar on someone's income.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Well first, I'd like to respond again to what you were talking about with respect to the special diets and the transportation funding. I've had discussions with staff with respect to transportation, we know that it is an issue that requires to be addressed. That's what will be happening with this ESIA review. You can imagine how many policies there are in Community Services, it's mind-boggling. Each and every day I think I learn of a new policy. I think that has been the driving force for the negativity because there have not been any former governments that have taken up the challenge to go through those policies. Really you need to look at each and every individual policy and how that fits together with another policy and what the domino effect or the ramifications are.

 

I'm very proud of the fact that it is this government that has taken on that challenge of changing Community Services, as we said, inside out. Every division is being looked at, being transformed into the whole philosophy of supporting people on an individual basis and how we can do that.

 

Your points are well taken and the challenge, of course, is the time element with all these changes, what it takes. If you do analyze the changes we've made to date, they've been an incredible amount in a short period of time. It's still not enough, we have more work to be done and that's what our commitment is, to make those major changes in the department and basically create a new, very supportive, individualized system that has the checks and balances and accountability because that's the other side that you have to balance off in this formula.

 

Your question about the maintenance payments will be another particular issue that we will be looking at when we look at the ESIA review. That's why it's very important to me, as a minister, that you have a good relationship in terms of being able to provide me with your insight because you see it, you deal with it, you know the policies. Many of those policies, you know how they affect individuals and some of the things that may be tweaked on those that would make a difference.

 

As always, I invite you to participate in providing us with information as you have done over the years which, as you know, there's been some that you and I have worked on and we've been able to make those changes because I've either asked you your opinion on it or you've come to me and said look, this is a policy that's not making a lot of sense.

 

It does take time because one of the biggest challenges is identifying those policies and how they're being utilized. Once again, it comes down to the front-line staff and ensuring that there's a flow of communications. That is a difficult process for any organization but we have to make sure we do that and we're attentive to it each and every day. I thank you for those questions and they're duly noted to go forward with looking at those changes, as you have suggested in the past at Budget Estimates and in between Budget Estimates, just in our discussions.

 

MR. ZINCK: I want to thank the minister for those comments. Again, I mentioned the other day to the deputy minister that this becomes an exercise not necessarily of criticizing the department but having a conversation about what's really going on and what are some of the issues that we see on a regular basis. You're absolutely right, over the years I look back at the previous minister and yourself, it has become a good exercise where we've actually seen some tweaking of policies and I think that's a beneficial thing.

 

I can tell you that I recognize a lot of the changes. One of the first things I did seven years ago, as a Community Services Critic, was go through that thick volume of policy book on-line, printed it off, went through everything and as we continue, both my assistant and I today to go through all the new changes and the new updates, especially when we're dealing with appeals or putting in a plea to a supervisor - you know what's your interpretation, well this is our interpretation and this is what we've seen before type of thing.

 

I do recognize for sure that there is some work being done around that and a number of the policies being looked at and changes being made. I think any time you see change it is positive.

 

Mr. Chairman, how much time do I have?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have about 20 minutes remaining.

 

MR. ZINCK: I want to touch on a subject that I've made mention of in each of the last two years. I bring it up again because I'm dealing with it more than ever before. As I mentioned yesterday in some of my comments, Burnside Industrial Park is my very first poll in Dartmouth North. There is the provincial correctional facility there, Central Nova Correctional Facility. Every individual in there can vote and at the last election, provincially, I know that Elections Nova Scotia actually missed putting the ballot box in there, which was disappointing. This time they won't. I say that because I'm going to ensure that it's there because I deal with a number of clients and individuals in the prison system. What I've found, one of the challenges we have, and I give every inmate inside who has contacted my office who I've gone to visit, full credit for wanting to put together a plan for when they leave the institution.

 

I say that because over the years I've seen a number of folks who come out of the prison system, we give them a week full of medication. If they have any little bit of money in their pocket it's not going to last them long enough. We kind of set them adrift without a plan in place. It's not too long after that, if they don't have the support system in place, that we see them fall back into criminal activity and back into the system because it not only costs taxpayers more to house individuals in correctional facilities but the actual individual, I've had them comment over the years about how it is easier to access medical support, educational services, three square meals a day and a roof over my head.

 

It's a real challenge for individuals and again I bring it up this year because I've seen more of it and so many young men between the ages of 20 and 25 who are coming out of either federal or provincial time served who don't know where to go, don't know what to access. I want to thank everyone, even though it has been challenging, for letting those individuals know that they can call the MLA for Dartmouth North.

 

What we all have to understand is that these folks end up back in our communities and, in large part, I see a lot of them end up in Dartmouth North. I guess my suggestion again this year would be to work with the Minister of Justice on some sort of transition program so that these folks can definitely have a link when they come out. It's so important because when they do come to me - I have a certain time frame that I can access funding that can get them linked in with a doctor so they can get their medications; that I can get them safely housed. Oftentimes there is a big challenge because of the track record of the individual.

 

I just recently had a very high profile case where somebody had made a choice to leave one of the halfway houses, had just got done serving federal time and was so close to being released. I'm grateful that after he turned himself in he served two weeks in Burnside, but he connected with somebody in Burnside who had been working with me and he was only serving two weeks. The first stop he made was my office when he got out because this individual who was incarcerated, on his way out eventually, working with my office told him, you need to go see Trevor. This gentleman served time both in Ontario and Quebec, but he was originally from the Valley, and do you know what? We were successful. We worked with the Halifax office, we got him some funding and that's the whole thing - I need my medication and my funding and a place to live.

 

I'm wondering if you could make some quick comments around that. Again, I want to encourage you this year to talk with your colleague, the Minister of Justice, in trying to maybe educate the justice system on just what we're dealing with because a lot of these folks end up on IA. When you're dealing with somebody who has been incarcerated, there is a certain culture that they're used to and when they come out and they go through the intake process, it's a very trying situation. "I need three months of bank statements." "Well, I've been incarcerated." "Well, what have you been incarcerated for?" We end up putting barriers up. Maybe not intentionally, but it's definitely felt by somebody who has basically been in a cage for a large part - and sometimes the majority - of their lives. I'm wondering if you can make some comments.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I know that you have brought this issue to us before and I guess what it is too is a matter of the capacity of all the changes that we're making and we get to a point in time that we can be looking at this. I will tell you that I agree with you and that we're fortunate in the fact that our deputy minister, who came from British Columbia, was very much involved with the Department of Justice. One of the programs that they established there was where the caseworkers actually went into the correctional facilities and worked with the inmates before they were released.

 

So there are other jurisdictions that have done this. We have the expertise and knowledge sitting right beside me so it is something that is certainly on our list to explore. I wish that we had the capacity and the ability to do everything at once and unfortunately that's not the reality of the world, but I think in the short period of time that we have been in as a government, we have made many strides, huge strides, towards change, you realize. This one I just put a star beside it to make sure that it is moved a little higher on our list because we do have the expertise here that will be able to advise staff how we would move forward with working with the Department of Justice and any other departments if we need to - whether the Department of Health and Wellness will be a part of that or not - that we can come together and we can certainly explore providing that type of service.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Zinck, a little over 10 minutes remaining.

 

MR. ZINCK: Thank you for that. I bring it up again because I think it's something that we should be working towards. This is an untapped labour market. There are a lot of individuals who have skills - or while they're incarcerated let's teach them something and bring them out and link them up. I just recently dealt with an individual who had just got done serving federal time and he was previously in the military. There are some skills there and we're going to link him up with a carpentry course. That's what he's interested in.

 

I recognize the deputy minister's efforts because when you came on, I looked into your background. I know a lot of the stuff that's happening in B.C. around the federal penitentiaries and around the homelessness issue, the hotels and where people are living in the streets, the drugs everything. We look at a lot of what has been going on in B.C. and relate it back to here.

 

Again, I do encourage you to keep it in the back of your mind, to keep working on it because as some of the federal justice initiatives take place and we're building more prisons and there's big money in the prison system, again, a lot of these individuals, both men and women, who I've worked with over the last number of years eventually end up back in our communities. They can be an asset but we have to invest in them like we invest in everyone else.

 

Again, I see it as an opportunity when someone presents themselves to me. Good on them for having the courage to reach out for help. Interestingly enough, I've done a tremendous amount of work over the years with the Elizabeth Fry Society but the John Howard Society has kind of been a little out of focus, in my opinion. I just recently had a call in the last week from the John Howard Society so I'm going to take them up on an offer to go in and talk with them and maybe work through some of those issues with them as well.

 

Something I brought up last year was around the quit/fire policy. It's one of those things that I think is a dated policy, we used to put it in place back when minimum wage was around $5 or $5.15 an hour. Again, nobody wants to be on this system.

 

I just recently had a case where an individual with mental health issues was working but he had been out of work for nine months and was just kind of basically making his way with odd jobs where he could, picking up bottles and cans and somehow he was getting by on that. It got to a point where he was at his breaking point and somebody had contacted us to see if we could help him. We reached out and linked him up with a doctor and we went through the process of going through IA with him.

 

This individual was quite agitated so the intake process and dealing with the caseworker was very traumatic because they couldn't figure out why income assistance was holding up the process of getting him linked in with some funding. What we found out was it was because nine months previous he had quit his job, or had been fired.

 

I bring it up because what I want to encourage the department to do is to go back to staff and look at that more individual case. I often hear you mention case-by-case basis, the individual approach. I will say that we were able to alleviate the problem. My assistant and I went in, we met with the caseworker and we talked about the mental health issues. I wrote a letter of support saying that we were going to link this individual up with a physician, we were going to get some medication.

 

The department supported us in the effort to have this individual put off on what we consider to be a disability, which is the $535 rate. Since then obviously we have the medical documentation to back that up.

 

That being said, the quit/fire policy had led this gentleman to basically being frustrated for a period of three weeks, showing up in my office and at one point I actually had to clear my office in the afternoon of folks because he had actually curled up in a ball and was basically pulling his hair out on the floor.

 

We were very pleased - and actually it was a new caseworker who took on this challenge. Obviously she had heard about our approach and we told her we'll come in with him. He had actually at one point gotten up and left the meeting in frustration. It was that one thing, that quit/fire policy, that didn't allow the caseworker to look at this on an individual basis.

 

We called the employer and the employer said yes, it wasn't worthwhile, we had to let him go and that was it. So for nine months this individual basically walked the streets, picking up cans and bottles and doing whatever odd jobs he could, to make ends meet. Do you know what - he was doing it, he was still able to pay his bills, but I'm not quite at that level where he's ready to be employable. We're now trying, now that we have him on some medication and he's taking it on a regular basis, we've been successful.

 

I know I don't have much time, so I'm going to end by just letting you know in regard to the young lady that we talked about last night, a request went in; I spoke with supervisor, Greg Cromwell, this morning and the request went in for special needs. I do want to let you know that and we'll find out this afternoon. You can make some comments towards that. I'd love to have some more time. I want to thank the staff and the minister again for this opportunity. You can rest assured that the conversation will be ongoing.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: You still have about three and a half minutes left.

 

MR. ZINCK: I'm going to let the minister comment.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you very much. I appreciate you letting me know because you know I would be worried about her and asking you anyway. I think that it's very important to note, when you're talking about the quit/fire that that's because policies are too rigid; once again, that they're not individualized and you can insert common sense into what we need, and that's what we're trying to encourage staff as we make these changes.

 

Once we get to the change point, it will be better because then we will have those changes, but as you're trying to transition, that is where people are falling through the cracks. They've always fallen through the cracks because it was just so rigid and nobody was looking at addressing the need for change. So as we're addressing the need for change - that's what worries me a lot is the now and the present and those people who are falling through the cracks and those are fortunate to have you because you understand the system so well and you're able to fight on their behalf and to have a change, and you are like the Superman of common sense so you're able to express that to the staff and make them understand the significance of that. I want to thank you for all your work that you have done in that area and that you continually do.

 

Certainly, I am not going to sit here and argue that these policies are good policies. They were developed years ago and nobody took on the challenge of changing them. I think that giving credit to our government in terms of taking on that huge challenge and trying to work through it and having discussions with individuals like yourself on helping us transition. I want to thank you very much for always doing that and providing your insights on how we could actually make these positive changes.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: You still have a minute or so if you want to put something else on the record.

 

MR. ZINCK: Again, thank you for the comments. I guess when I look at what we do each day as MLAs, when people approach us in our offices, the one thing that always hits home to me is that people put their lives in our hands. For whatever reason, they seek out guidance from us; we are navigators, negotiators, lawmakers, but it's the one thing that I can say that their lives are there, their need. It's our job to facilitate some sort of communication around the table, whether it's a rigid policy that has been implemented for years - just knowing that we can have that discussion.

 

I think over the years as being an MLA, I again want to give staff credit. They've always been able to sit down with myself, my assistant and have that individual fully understand what their responsibility is and why the department is doing what they're doing. I can honestly say that over the last seven years, we've had a lot of successes because it has never been about "well, we're not going to do it." It has always been about "well, what can we do?" How can we move forward in some way, and by doing that, we instill hope in those individuals who approach us for help. Once they have that belief that we believe in them it's easier to take the next step, and they generally do it on their own because they know they have the support there.

 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and again, thank you staff and minister.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Zinck for your input. Has the Liberal caucus finished and the Progressive Conservative caucus finished with the Department of Community Services? I was going to ask if you have exhausted yourselves, but you'll never exhaust yourselves. The Progressive Conservative caucus wants some time?

 

The honourable member for Inverness.

 

MR. ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I think probably 10 minutes should suffice.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Whatever time you want, we are here for you.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Thank you very much, that's very generous. Minister, the first time I really got to meet you and know you was an event at the ROC Centre in Port Hawkesbury. I want to say that I was very impressed. You were very kind to me that day. I didn't really know what to expect because we do sit on opposite sides of the Legislature, but I want to acknowledge your generosity to me that day and your interest, and I thank you for that.

 

I do have one question and it relates to the ROC. It may be something that was in the budget. I know there are financial implications to providing it and that's not always easy to do, but I thought I would ask the question. The Vocational Services Society in the province - they have about 29 member agencies, about 300 staff. They provide services like they do at the ROC for day programs, vocational training and employment services. One of the things that they were hoping to see in the budget was funding for staff relief, so if staff working at a place like the ROC had some vacation time or had to be away for some reason, that this funding would enable them to put staff in their relief to take their place when they're away. Is that something that was maybe looked at in the budget? I'll let you comment.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you very much. I actually had absolutely no problem saying what I said when I was there because I can see how genuine you are and the work that you're doing for your constituency and those individuals who were at the ROC, how they admire you, so it was easy for me to say those nice things about you.

 

I want to say - I don't know if you know that we're doing a redesign in many areas of the Department of Community Services, and one of them is under the SPD program. I do understand the pressures that day programs especially have faced in the province. We did some investment in the day programs in terms of the very complex needs because of the fact that that was one segment of our population that was not receiving any services through day programs. We were finding that there were families that were having very difficult times because their child would have quite complex needs, so we were able to focus in on that particular group of individuals and their needs, and to invest more money in terms of helping them and those that had the capacity to offer those types of services.

 

I truly believe that day programs are absolutely critical in the province and what they do in terms of offering opportunities for those individuals to socialize and have social inclusion. Actually, it also, as we know, helps the families in having some respite time for themselves, so they play a vital role.

 

The question that you asked is something that I am going to have a look at. I cannot make any commitments at this time because, as you know, the financial ramifications and pressures are there. I will look at what that issue is, but it will probably end up fitting within our SPD because when you are looking at that need for one organization - we have many organizations, so people have to keep in mind it may be a $10,000 or $20,000 cost and doesn't seem like it's a lot, but then times that by the number of other service providers and then we need to - if we were going to do that, we also have to respect the fact that it would be an annualized increase in our budget because that expectation you just can't do that one year and not do another year.

 

It's very important to start the process of discussion and I thank you for bringing that forward because that does certainly make a difference in terms of - we have so many priorities that we are trying to juggle each and every day. I encourage any MLA that has an issue in their community, to bring that forward and then we can have that discussion and create an awareness of what that means on a provincial basis. What do we have to do to move the wheels forward to make that happen for the organization? What they do is incredible and when you go there and you get the hugs from the participants and you see what that does for their personal confidence and their ability to be a part of a community and a part of society, it's extraordinarily rewarding. I just wish that I had Harry Potter's magic wand that I could just go - bing - like that you would get your little pot of money because I would be doing the magic wand thing quite a bit in the province to bring us where we really need to be. We can have further discussions about that and you can come to me and we'll get more information from staff and see what that means in terms of how we can move that forward in the future.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, that's great. The other question I had - and this is the only other one I do have - for the clients themselves, I know they get a small stipend right now and I do know that - I guess looking at things in pure terms, we'd like to see them get a higher stipend, but we also have to recognize that there is investment being made in their care and, as you mentioned, the experiences they're getting. As you say, we don't have that magic wand, but do you have any comment on that? I know people have asked about the stipends, are they going to increase for the clients? Do you have any thoughts on that? Is there anything you could offer by way of comment?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Yes, I do. I'm trying to remember - because I've travelled around the province and I've been to many locations and I believe that there was a gentleman at this location who is a participant and that was one of the first things that he asked me when we came through the doors. I can understand - I mean, you put a value to what you're doing in terms of what you're getting paid and that's very important. So it is something that, as a minister, I would like to be able to do at some point, but once again, you can understand the many, many requests that we have. It's important that we encourage the participants to volunteer, but also get rewarded for the work that they do because that's what we expect, so why should we expect any different from them.

 

I guess my sadness is that over the years those particular areas were somewhat neglected and that leaves us kind of behind the eight ball and that's what we have to be discussing and to see what alternatives we can - there is only so much in the pot is the unfortunate part. If you take a little bit out for one issue, then that means there's less for another issue, so that's the balancing all the time.

 

It's also very important to say, do you look at trying to stretch the dollars for everybody, which does only a little good for everybody, or do you - and this is what we've been trying to do - is have a strategic plan that enables us to help a certain sector, give them the dollars that they need, although another sector may not get it at that particular point in time, but that there is a trust and relationship being built between the department and the government and those organizations to know that as we go forward, that they are part of our plan.

 

I've tried to be very open with groups about that and, in fact, we have brought our service providers together, which is the first time this has happened in the province in order for them to get an appreciation of the pressures that each group faces. These are different service providers from the daycares to the day programs to persons with disabilities, but it's a group that we call Connections because of the fact that now they're connecting together. It has been a very interesting process to watch as they have evolved over the last several years to have a real understanding now of different pressures and the different service providers. They're trying to work together and have that understanding.

 

I think that's a very important element that we cannot forget, that the consultation, the involvement too - not just asking people what they think, but actually involving them in the process. Then they understand our financial pressures. It's all about relationship building and building trust with government, so they know that when we're saying this year we're going to invest in day programs and we're not going to be able to invest in these other areas, that they understand that their turn will come. The unfortunate part is that in the past promises had been made and they never received it, so there is a lack of trust there that has to definitely be rebuilt.

Certainly I agree with what you're saying in terms that it's very important for participants to feel valued. Every one of us want to feel valued and part of our feeling valued is when we have the ability to be employable and we're receiving an income for the work we're doing - so something else that we can also have further discussions on.

 

I like thinking outside of the box so if you want to think outside of the box, I really believe that we have to be exploring more partnerships and more corporate partnerships. There is no reason in my mind that government cannot establish relationships with corporations and to develop partnerships that may be able to support financially - there are many major corporations that actually look for a community project that they can be supportive of because they want to give back to the community. I've had a lot of experience in my past life working in non-profit and working with major corporations or in major corporations. I know we sat around the table thinking, what non-profit organization should we be supporting this year and going forward?

 

I think there is a window of opportunity there that we're not at the point yet that we have taken that opportunity. Like I said, I believe in thinking outside of the box. If you take the wildest idea, you can then start shaping it; it doesn't mean that exactly what you want will happen, but you need to start somewhere. So if you have any suggestions or thoughts, maybe there's something that we can do in your particular community as a pilot.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, that's definitely something I'll have more discussions with locally and perhaps bring back to you at a later date.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Absolutely.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Mr. Chairman, with that, I thank you for the time and minister, thank you for answering my questions.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. It is my understanding that there are no more questions so, minister, any time you are ready, we could have your closing remarks.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I would like to take this opportunity to thank all members of the committee over the last while for asking their questions and for their interest in the work that we do in the Department of Community Services. It's an extremely important department for the people of Nova Scotia. It is a department that has a great deal of responsibility. It's a very emotional department and it's about people, and I think that's the part that we cannot forget - that it's about people. It shouldn't be about politics because then the people get caught up in that and they're the ones that lose at the end of the day.

 

Working together I know is a difficult challenge in the political world, but I think it's very important because we know what those outcomes will result in - those co-operative, collaborate efforts. I know that Mr. Zinck knows that because he has had a lot of experience in seeing those outcomes and the rush of power you feel when you see somebody turning around their life and what that means. That's so empowering for yourself.

 

Our government has truly demonstrated to Nova Scotians that we can provide programs and services that mean a lot to our residents, and at the same time taking a balanced approach and I think that's very important. We have been able to initiate multiple programs since 2009; address many issues that were waiting for us when we came in the doors and knowing though that we have more work to be done.

 

We had a major challenge. Let's not forget the fact that when we came in as government, we did have a financial mess to clean up and we also had to deal with. I need to be frank on this, I was very surprised with the neglect, not in terms of the staff at all in Community Services, but with the system itself and with the previous priorities in government where there was a lack of planning, a lack of financial planning - because it's not just about strategic planning, you can strategically plan all you want, but if you do not have the funding to support that planning effort you're not going to get anywhere.

 

It is very critical that you're in a position that you can support your plans financially. Unfortunately, that wasn't done a whole lot, it was more of on an ad hoc basis of when the pressures came in or if it hit the media then it was being reactive to try to solve that problem, to calm the issue down and then kind of put it on the back burner again. Instead of saying okay, this is a true issue that we need to be able to create a plan going forward, address the issues today and also make sure that the supports you give are not just short-term support, that you work with that particular organization, whether they're having difficulties in terms of their own governance or their own means of providing the service, that it's not always just about the money, it's also about the supports you provide, the knowledge base you provide to the organizations that we're working with and also creating an environment and an atmosphere that gives them the opportunity to talk with you and provide you with information. That's what we did.

 

When I first came in as a minister I thought that one of the most important things I could do initially was to talk to individuals, talk to the advocacy groups, talk to the service providers and get a sense from them of where they are, what was their past history with the department and other governments in terms of their funding models, in terms of their actual support and to be able to identify that and then have open discussions with them of what we were facing in terms of finances and our capacity, and how we can resolve this together.

That has been the path that I have been on as minister, to continue that engagement and I think it's very important. I was actually very surprised by the fact that I learned from some of these groups that this was the first time they ever sat around a table with the minister. I was thinking, how could we over the years leave them on one side and we're on the other, plus at the same time we're trying to provide them with a service, but we don't have a real insight of what their issues are. In order to do that it took time to bring people in, to talk with people, engage them and start to rebuild a relationship because I can tell you there was very little trust with the Department of Community Services.

Once again, I am going to be very clear that that was not an issue with staff, it was staff being thrown into a system, plus on top of that you put the political aspect. You put those two recipes together and they were not a very tasteful recipe, I can tell you. It was very difficult for many of these individuals, organizations and advocacy groups.

 

I believe that we have provided them with an opportunity for the first time to be part of the process and to put that system aside and put the politics aside and work with them on the best outcome for them and develop their future plans together. I think that's very important that you're developing those plans together in a co-operative manner.

 

Before I continue on with my closing remarks, I want to thank everyone in the Department of Community Services, the staff from the front-line level right through to the senior management level. As I have said, I respect the fact that it is a very challenging environment to work in, it's very difficult to always be put on the wrong end of the stick, knowing there are 10 sides to the stories, there are many issues that make these particular cases very complicated and due to privacy you cannot talk about them and you're being attacked, that is a very difficult position for anybody to be in.

 

I'm very awestruck with some of the individuals who have been in the department for many years and how they've been able to continue in that kind of environment. We work very hard so we can move forward and encourage staff that we do want to make significant changes. I feel that where we brought in a new deputy minister from another part of Canada and have been able to bring in somebody who has the ability to create change, work with staff who have been there for a long time and have been in the tangles of the octopus of the system - that's how I see it because it has many arms that wrap around you. I want to express my appreciation for staff, whether they are a new staff person or they've been there for 30 years, for their contributions.

 

It would be very interesting to have a list of all the significant changes they have made in terms of people's lives. Even though the system itself did not change until we became government, there are many, many staff people who have personally taken on the role of making a positive change in an individual's life or a family's life. It would be very interesting to know over the years what that number equates to.

 

I would like to say thank you to Rob for being here and as you mentioned, honourable member, this is the first time the deputy minister sat at the table during these Budget Estimates. I think that also shows his commitment to these changes that we are initiating and implementing in the department.

 

Certainly, George Hudson, the executive director of Finance and Administration, has a computer mind, that's not my mind and I'll tell you we are so fortunate to have him. You can ask him a question from 1820 and he knows the answer to it, I don't know how, but he does. If it's related to money he can say it really fast, too. It's incredible to see somebody who has that ability and be able to provide the supports that are necessary.

 

If I was going to list others who have supported me, as minister, to be able to do these Budget Estimates, I would have a very long list. I want to say now, you know who you are and I, certainly, as a minister appreciate the work and dedication you provide not just for Budget Estimates, but year-round.

 

I want to also talk about the fact that what I had tied into my opening remarks was about that transition and the progress toward a stronger social safety net for Nova Scotians in need. We are the first government in decades to not only recognize that there's a need for change, but to take action. That is really tough because people say we need the change, we want change, but as soon as they're part of that change in terms of them having to do a little give and take, that's when you get oh, I didn't mean me, it's the other guy over there that we want you to change how they're doing business first or the way that we're working together. I believe that's human nature and I believe in a province like Nova Scotia it's even more prevalent because we are strong with our roots in the way we were brought up and what our history is, so change can be difficult. Certainly, I think we have proven that change can happen, it can take place, but it means building relationships, that is just the most critical part, you have to build relationships and building relationships also means building trust.

 

I think people recognize the changes we have made and they're numerous. They have resulted in better lives for individuals and families in this province. However, I will clearly say it is not enough. I do not know of any government that could make the changes that are necessary to be made in this province that would be enough in four years, and even 10, 15 years down the road. It still will not be enough because that's what we strive for. We strive to create a better society, and since the time of humans, we've been striving to make a better society and sometimes we take many steps backwards. We have to just be diligent and work together to go forward. I think that one of the main supports of change is your relationship, your trust that you build with others. I'm pleased, like I said, with the progress in the past years, but all the accomplishments since 2009.

 

Another statement that has to be clear is - the actions of the past certainly do affect the present and the future - there's no question. We look at our own individual lives and the decisions that we made years ago can still affect us either negatively or positively in our lives today and the direction of our future path. Well it is no different for a government. If decisions in the past were not good decisions or there was a lack of planning, that will affect today and it affects the future. So we're still haunted by many decisions that were made in the past.

 

There were good decisions in the past - don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all the things that were done were done in a negative manner - but I think the biggest hole that I have seen is with respect to the lack of planning in a strategic manner and the lack of consultation. Many of the changes that were made were often on more of an ad hoc basis. As I said, some of those changes over the years have been positive changes and I give credit to those particular governments that made those positive changes and to the staff that supported them in the change, but as I mentioned, I think that the area that was very neglected was the area in terms of planning.

 

I believe that's why we see the issues that we do today. We would still have issues, but I think that our issues would be a little bit different in terms of how we work together and where we're at and the inconsistencies throughout the province wouldn't be as many as there are today that we face because of the fact that there was that lack of laying a good foundation and a good path and a good plan.

 

So what we did - the first step that I took as a minister was to do those consultations to start building that relationship and building that trust. We talked to advocacy groups, stakeholders and opinion leaders to understand their pressures. Once we did that - and we're still doing it - the next initiative was the planning process itself and what are the steps that we need to take in order to align ourselves with the needs of those groups we've talked to or the individuals or the family. You have to keep in mind, at the same time we're gathering information because information changes each and every day, especially in this world of modern technology and the pressures of quick response. It's quite different, as we all know, than even 10 or 15 years ago where you could take the time to address a letter and send it out. Now it's like two minutes. If you haven't responded to somebody's e-mail, it's like - you don't care, what's wrong with you? There are many different pressures in today's world that we're dealing with.

 

So after we went through the planning process - and you have to keep in mind, everything that we're doing starts at different times so it's a huge project management to change the Department of Community Services. That's the reason we needed to have some support by bringing in an associate deputy minister to be able to lead us in those changes.

 

If you look at all the different divisions we have in Community Services, from Children and Family Services to Employment Support and Income Assistance to foster families under the Children and Family Services and the adoption process and the Child and Youth Strategy, we have housing, in every one of those there has been initiated a change. Some were further down, you can't do it all at once. You have many balls that you are juggling in the air at the same time. That's why it is so important to make sure that you are very transparent and when there's an issue you discuss those issues and you have to tell somebody you don't have the financial ability to support them now but you don't turn them away. You say to them, this is the time to plan, let's plan, let's help you out, are there other things we can do?

 

We've done that in the department, we have reallocated our resources, been able to take money that we're already spending but putting it somewhere else, where the outcomes are more valuable to all those concerned.

 

The other acknowledgement is the fact that we have been doing this during a very difficult economic time in the world. All you have to do is turn on the news each evening and see what's happening around the world, in terms of the world and the economy in countries and in places that you would never believe they would be dealing with bankruptcy.

 

I think those countries and the people in those countries have had a rude awakening that governments just do not have a money machine somewhere. That is one of the areas that I think we need more education to the general public to understand that. Often when you talk to people you will hear, well I don't care what it costs for that, or I do not care if we have this debt as long as we can get this now. But what about our future generation? What about our children and their children? Is that the type of legacy that we want to leave them to deal with?

 

If we're having such difficulty now dealing with the financial issues in this province and world-wide, what do we think it's going to be 30 or 40 years down the road if we do not take the leadership and make those very difficult and hard decisions in order to make sure that the legacy we leave is a legacy of not debt, but that it's a legacy of not just hope but actual action and opportunities?

 

Making those choices is difficult because we live in the society of now and what we want now. It's not always what we need, it's what we want. Then we have a large percentage of our Nova Scotians who have the need, so there's a difference in our society between the very rich and the very poor. That's where we're responsible to take that leadership and try to make that gap a smaller gap. That's not an easy job because you have often a lot of challenges and a lot of criticism from those who are most vocal and those who are most vocal are usually the people who have the resources and have had the opportunities in their lives to be educated so they know how to create the public noise. They know how to incite the media to cover a particular story.

 

It's very ironic that the very people who we need to help are the ones who, because they don't have those same opportunities, that sometimes will go in line with those who have the resources when it's actually detrimental to them.

 

I think it's important for us to work together to be able to educate society, too. It's not just about Community Services providing funding, I think we have a responsibility to educate and create more knowledge in respect to those who are in most need. The fact is there are very few people who truly are there to rip off the system, but that's a mindset in society that we have to work very hard to alleviate that type of attitude. As I've said many times over, when we invest in people we invest in our province. There's no question in my mind there is always a balance. When we invest in business, as a government, there are always criteria around that investment. It's not us just writing a cheque and throwing it in the air, there's always commitments from those businesses. Often they are in terms of how many jobs they are going to create. Well if we want to help individuals come off income assistance, we have to have the jobs available.

 

You can see where the parallels are and the importance of aligning and balancing your approach. Often people will say well why aren't you investing in this and you shouldn't be investing in that, but as I said, life is about balance and those who have more control in their lives you will find are the individuals who have a balanced approach to their life.

 

We know ourselves that if we have an unbalanced approach that it's very stressful and that we just go around in circles like the hamster on the wheel and not being able to get out of that round wheel and you keep going and going and you're out of breath and you're tired out. That's what happens, and that's what happens with those individuals who are not as fortunate as us and we're the ones who need to provide the hand up and the working with individuals and trusting them, not thinking that everybody who comes who needs the system of support that they're doing it to take advantage of us, and also respect their individuality and respect their knowledge about themselves.

 

That's where it's so critical to take a restorative approach. Who wants to be told what to do? I'm sure everyone here had that argument with their parents some time in their life. You wanted to be part of your own life plan so you wanted to have a bit of structure from your parents, a little bit of authority but you also wanted to explore the opportunities that you felt were there for you and learn from your mistakes and learn from your successes.

 

That's what we have to do in a society to help those who need the help most, we have to allow them to have the privilege to work with us, not us coming in and saying well here's what the system will provide you and I'm sorry, you don't fit within that system so let's just sort of forget about you, we have a homeless shelter down the road, just go to that, you'll be fine. That's not the way we need to do business and I will not support that type of attitude. The attitude needs to be, let's sit down, how can we support you? What supports are already available in our society and in our communities?

 

This is not an easy task because it does take financial commitment and it takes commitment from all levels of government and it takes commitment from all levels of employees in government and within the department. That's why the internal communication is so important and to be able to try to change a culture to think differently. We're working very diligently to do that.

 

You know the focus has been from our government from day one is working towards making life a little bit better for the people of Nova Scotia. We have provided many supports in that area and there's much more work to do. As you know, I have mentioned before the different supports and it comes down to those dollar supports. They're vitally important and we know that we have raised the income of Nova Scotians, those who are low-income and we've worked very hard to do that. We have more work to do and it's not all about just the numbers in those terms.

 

We've taken a multi-pronged approach to our plan, there are a variety of opportunities for individuals to receive financial support. What the ultimate goal will be for those on income assistance is that someday we can just provide them with an envelope of money, that they can make the decisions, that we're not saying to them, this amount goes for your shelter, this amount goes for your special needs. I think it's important that we give the individuals and families the respect of making those decisions and not putting those rigid criteria around where they spend their money. They know what's best for them and with the supports that we can provide through our caseworkers in financial planning - I think that's another critical area that tends to be missing. I think that's missing from day one in our schools and I would like to see changes in terms of teaching us how to balance a budget; how to do our finances; how to plan for life. I think that is critical knowledge for every individual to have to be able to go forward in their lives. It's not just about one thing, it's about many things in life that we have to address.

 

As many know here, one of the projects that I am very excited about, of course, is the Housing Strategy and the difference that we will see in the future because of having a Housing Strategy. Believe me, that is a very big commitment from a province to go forward with a housing strategy, but we know the significance and importance of that. We know how that will affect so many different Nova Scotians - from seniors, to helping young couples be able to purchase their first home, to helping individuals with intellectual needs to move towards community living, to people on income assistance having a safe place to live and a proper place to live and having the opportunity to live in a community that has diversity rather than being segmented in one type of housing that people know when they drive by that that's public housing. We've done that in the past and there are many people living in public housing and it has been helpful for them, but I think that it's important that people are part of a community and being part of a community means being diverse and able to have a variety of services available to you.

 

Those are many things that we have to address government-wide, not just within the Department of Community Services. We have to work together with departments, with community and partnerships and talk about those issues with respect to transportation. Absolutely key, as we know in the rural communities, and also a challenge here, as the member has brought forth in terms of supporting those on income assistance with their travel needs. Also we need to be looking at, not just the travel needs, but the whole ESIA redesign, and that's what we're doing.

 

At the same time as we're doing our planning and making those changes, we're also taking action. I think the biggest pressure is the fact that it's never enough and it will never be enough, but you have to strive for higher levels of success than what has been done in the past. It's very critical for us as a government to ensure that we provide a sustainable social support system. That, unfortunately, hasn't been the way of thinking in the past and so that's the past that we want to bury. What we want to make people understand is that we need those social supports; we need to promote independence and self-reliance. We need to encourage security for everybody. We also need to assist people to find employment. There are a hidden number of individuals who have been forgotten about and those are individuals who have been on income assistance for a period of time and there's really nothing available for them. As I talked about in these estimates, what we find is that we're good at preparing them to do a resumé and to learn how to do a cover letter and then we sort of let them go on their own, rather than establishing once again - as this brings me back to the start of what I was talking about - is relationships and building relationships in the community and building relationships with business owners.

 

There are many business owners who jump on the opportunity to take in an employee who has that initiative and wants to work but needs to build their confidence. With supports, they're willing to do that. We know that we're going to have a shortage in terms of workers in our society. We need to be addressing that now, so that's why it's so critical to look at the future in planning. Years ago if we were more futuristic some of these issues wouldn't be as enormous as what we're dealing with today.

 

Our goal is certainly to help break that cycle of poverty. How do you do that? If we look back in history, poverty has been in the world forever. We haven't done a very good job, as a society, to recognize what that means. I think that we have taken the single-pronged approach, thinking that if we offer supports in one area that it's going to have an overall benefit. We should learn from history, that hasn't happened.

 

We know now, and this is what we have to work towards, the fact that it means taking that individual approach but holistic approach to supporting individuals. When we don't succeed, we need to try again and be very creative in how do we do this.

 

I think when you're working with an individual - you can't tell me that anybody wants to stay on income assistance, with the few dollars they have. You cannot convince me that that's what people want. People want employment, people want independence. Maybe they are on the system so long that they've lost so much confidence in themselves that the world is very fearful to them and going out to knock on a door to try to get a job may be just something that comes naturally to us because we have the confidence level from our ability and our opportunities we have been given in life and they haven't been given the same opportunities or what else happens in people's lives. They don't think of it.

 

You can have a very good life and then suddenly something happens - you lose your spouse, maybe the main income earner in your family, and then your life spirals down. You don't want to be in that position so why do we judge people when they are on income assistance and have this preconceived idea that this is what they want? That's ridiculous.

 

We must remember that each and every one of us is not in a position that that may not happen to us. Things happen in life, look at what happened in Boston yesterday, which is such a sad commentary on our world, but we can't give up hope. I can tell you that last night, after I went home and I turned on the television to CNN and they played it over and over, then this morning when I saw the story on the young eight-year-old boy who lost his life - his sister lost a leg, his mom has brain injuries. All this little boy was doing - his dad went over the finish line and he was running to dad to give him a hug and congratulate him and he lost his life.

 

Let's think about those things and why anybody in this world would want to do that to another person. That family's life has been changed for the worse. It's all changed, the dynamics are changed, everything is changed.

 

When you talk about mental health issues what do you think that dad has to deal with now? His son was running to give him a hug and his son lost his life. The dad has to deal with his wife and now his daughter who has lost her leg. What that will do to him in terms of depression, in terms of the rest of his life? Let's think about those things. Let's not judge people that get into a position in their life that they need mental health supports. That's why this government has supported a mental health strategy for the first time, and we work in the Department of Community Services to integrate those services together with other departments.

 

In our political arguments when we're standing in the House throwing insults back and forth, let's just think about those things and let's just think about, when we talk about bullying, and we're adults in a House throwing insults back and forth to each other, what kind of example do we set? I have to be honest, I am a politician, but I do not like being a politician because I like being able to work to make a change and a positive change. I do not like people throwing insults back and forth. It's hard as a human being, when somebody is insulting you, to not react to that, but we have to question what example do we provide society? We're supposed to be seen as leaders so what kind of example are we providing to society? I want people to reflect on that.

 

I would also like, in my closing statement, to talk about persons with disabilities and how important that is to me and to recognize the need for change. I look at people with a disability - and I think people have heard me make this comment - I look at those individuals as people with ability, not disability because it's absolutely inspiring and motivating when you talk to an individual with a disability and what they have had to face, and what accomplishments they have made. They have to work 10 times harder than us - absolutely they have to work 10 times harder, and they want to work. There are many people who have a disability that have the ability to be employable and we cannot forget that. We need to be able to have a system that we provide them with those opportunities.

 

We also have to recognize that those individuals with a disability have many more needs than those who do not have a disability. We have a very large percentage in this province who have disabilities, and we have to make sure that we look at what system we provide today. Our system today puts them under the category of income assistance, and I'm not sure that's the correct thing. I think we need more discussion around that because I think we need to be able to provide services and supports that recognize those disabilities that they have.

 

I would also like to talk a little bit about those with intellectual disabilities. I have been very open about my own family situation with my sister-in-law who has an intellectual disability and how frightened my husband and I were when both his parents died within a month of each other and we had his sister's care - we have guardianship - and how fearful we were. What do we do? We did not have any idea of where we were going to go with our future. Because of the Department of Community Services and their support of Bonny Lea Farm, our sister-in-law had a place to go. Initially she didn't. She was actually sent to a foster family and then she was sent to another facility that was a larger facility and that didn't work out. Once again, it was to recognize her individual needs, and when that was recognized - and we pushed for that - and the staff was understanding about that, she had the opportunity to go to Bonny Lea Farm and her life has been changed forever. She is happy. She smiles. She's a little grumpy like my husband once in a while, but she smiles. (Interruption) Well, can you imagine living with me? That's another whole story - that's not up for estimates.

I have to give credit to my husband - he doesn't give up. We'll be married 25 years in May and we dated 13 years before we got married, and I had to make sure that he was ready for me and that's why it took 13 years. We have faced a lot together like other individuals do in their lives. The situation with his sister was very daunting for us, but to be able to see the services that the Department of Community Services have provided, they've done that with a lot of challenges because over the years there was a great deal of neglect of people with disabilities. So the poor staff were working away with not a lot of resources, not a lot of support and they have made a change over the years in terms of what they were trying to deal with.

 

I hope they are excited about the part that they have a government now that is saying to them, we have to develop more supports for you to make those changes and that's why we are looking at the SPD division and we are making changes and we have increased their capacity and we know the importance of that.

 

The issue also that we talked about with the honourable member was about community options and what that means and the opportunities to move in that direction but yet, at the same time, the complexities that we face in terms of some of the issues that individuals are dealing with and the supports we need to provide them with. It is very complex but we have to be open to have those discussions. That's why I am very proud that we have the support of Michael Bach to be able to come into the department and offer us his insight and bring together people who have been on the other side of government and on the other side of Community Services for many years, knocking on the door, saying let us in, we want to be able to provide you with information.

 

It's very difficult because the way the system has developed over the years we know that usually the knock on the door means they want more money, that's our first assumption. Oftentimes it is but once you sit down and you have conversations, you will also learn that it's not always about the money, it's the way we provide the supports and the services and can we work together and be honest about the fact that we need to have a financial plan to go forward to assist you as a stakeholder.

 

Another area within Community Services that is critical in this province of course is our Child and Youth Strategy. As we've seen recently, the issues surrounding youth at risk. What is the definition of youth at risk? We often think that it may be a youth who is homeless or a youth who is having family issues but youth at risk can also come from a stable family. We have to identify and define that better in the province and to be able to discover what kind of supports we need to provide our youth and how critical it is for us to be supportive and be responsive to the needs of our communities.

 

One of the models we have initiated that is working quite well is our outreach workers for our youth. I would like to see us having the ability in the future to create more outreach worker positions. I would invite people to go on YouTube and Google - I'm not a big tech person - but Google YouTube for "youth outreach worker Nova Scotia" because actually I received an e-mail with a link to YouTube. It was one of our youth outreach workers taping himself, which he says at the start that he shouldn't have done while he was driving. He is coming home at the end of the day and he felt so compelled to do a little video - he watches the road pretty good - of himself talking about at the end of the day how compassionate and how successful he is feeling by being an outreach worker now in Nova Scotia and what that has meant not just for him but for the youth he is working with.

 

Once again, it is putting people right in community, putting them at the grassroots level to help individuals one-on-one. I think that is so vitally important and that's an area that has been missed. Often it's like at the senior management level that we're saying this is what needs to be done but we're not supporting the resources at that grassroots level. We are really moving in that direction so you will really enjoy the YouTube because there is not a better testimonial than having a person who is involved in a new job and it was so rewarding for me because that was something we developed in the department, in terms of creating that position when we had a lot of pushback because of the needs that people feel, in terms of youth and homelessness and how they want the supports for 24/7 homeless shelter. That's just not possible in this province because every community has a right to have a 24/7. We would not be able to financially support that and also the fact is that we have to be creative and think outside the box and look at the core issues with the youth and what the core issue is. If we can deal with those core issues at the same time by developing a housing strategy so we can address the issues for housing for our youth, we need to look at the core issue causing the problem with youth.

 

I know that the SchoolsPlus program has taken a huge step towards helping in that area but we do also have to remember we have youth who are not in the school system so we have to make sure that we analyze how we can reach them. That's what we can do with our youth outreach workers.

 

You've often heard me talk about my commitment to foster families. I have some very dear friends in my life who have been foster parents for 25 years. They just recently retired from fostering. I believe that they are really, truly, our children's lifesavers for those children who have to come into the care of the Minister of Community Services. They do so much to contribute to the lives of those children and youth.

 

It's not an easy job. I have seen my friends take infants who are two or three days old, I've seen them take children who are eight years old, I've seen them have children who were 16 years old and trying to crawl out the windows in the night to go to a party and the issues that they have in terms of being able to provide structure and to be able to provide authority because there's a fine line there. I have seen that so I recognize the significance of their service. I was so proud that I was able to - yes, Mr. Chairman?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Just to interject, if I could. I always give a 10-minute signal when time is about to run out. As you know, you have a maximum of one hour and you have 10 minutes left.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Will you give me a five-minute notice?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll give you a five-minute notice or three or any notice that you want.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: When I talk about foster families, they are very important to all of Nova Scotia. We need to recognize the contributions they have made. For me, those children who come within our care, we also have looked at how can we better support our children in care?

 

I have been delighted to have the opportunity, as a minister, to be able to go to the awards ceremonies to present an award to Youth in Care with respect to recognizing their accomplishments and how well they are doing. I find it so rewarding in the fact that they call me Mama Community Services and there's nothing that has a better ring to it than having the youth in care calling me that name. I've gone to some of their events and on my nametag it's not the Honourable Minister Denise Peterson-Rafuse, it says "Mama Community Services". I have kept those nametags because I'm very proud of the fact that the youth in care would see a minister in that role.

 

I think certainly that is very important to be able to extend that care to them and do whatever we can to make better lives for them and to work very diligently to find them a forever home. Each and every one of us have a forever home and we know what that does for our lives, so every child deserves to have a forever home in their lives.

 

I'm trying to cover the different areas of the Department of Community Services and as you can tell there are so many divisions within the Department of Community Services and they all tie in together, and how it's like a puzzle piece and as you are trying to make the change that you want to make sure that each of those pieces fit very tightly together and that you do not try to force a piece that doesn't fit in your puzzle. Since 2009, I think that we have been building a puzzle that reflects the supports that people in Nova Scotia need and that we continue. Our puzzle isn't finished yet and it will take a long time, but the puzzle is coming together.

 

It's like when you are building a puzzle how at the start nothing looks familiar to you and you're wondering what it's going to actually look like even though you're looking at maybe the top of the box as you're putting that puzzle together. Then you get to a point that as you're putting it together you go, ah, I see - it's easier to fit the pieces together because you did all that hard work at the start when you planned out where you're going to build your puzzle; where you're going to put it; what table you are going to be at to build the puzzle in your house. Then you start putting the frame around it and then you start putting the pieces down. Then you start to realize - this really does look like something. I think that we are starting to get at that point as a government and as a department that we're saying, this really does look like something; this is actually fitting together.

 

Restorative practices are fitting together with the changes that we're making in the department; that we want our staff to feel that they have the freedom to make those important individualized decisions. We're seeing where foster families fit into the picture. We know where the adoption strategy fits in because we have older children who need a forever home and we need to focus on that.

 

We know where housing will fit now in our puzzle and how significant that will be to have a Housing Strategy to identify the great needs that we have in our society in terms of affordable housing; housing that will allow and support seniors to stay in their own home longer; housing that addresses the homelessness that we have; housing that looks at how we can encourage young individuals to be financially responsible and have the ability to buy their first home.

 

You can see how these are fitting together. How do we take income assistance and redesign? How do we look at those policies and make those changes that are making our puzzle start to reflect what we see as our ultimate picture in our mind as our goal for society? That is what we've been working towards and I want people to recognize that. We're not taking any puzzle apart. We are building a puzzle and we now are seeing what that puzzle will look like. As we go forward, we will make sure that those pieces fit tightly together.

 

In my closing remarks, I would like to express my gratitude once again to the staff; to everybody who has been listening to me for almost a whole hour. I know that it's not always easy to sit and listen to somebody going on and on, but I guess my passion for this is that I can sit here without reading every word that's in front of me. I look through and I want to express my thank you to our communication people because they work so hard and then I don't read the notes word for word. I always apologize for that, but my passion is coming through because it's just coming from my head to my mouth because I live and breathe this every day, seven days a week. I hope that people recognize that I am working hard and the department is working hard and the government is working hard to make a change. It means a lot to us and we are very committed to these changes.

 

In the very last part, there is actually some information that was requested of us. We want to put it in for the record before I do my closing resolution. There were several questions that we said we would bring the information back so we want this in the record; we talked yesterday about the small options homes and the number on the wait-list. We related that there were 133 people - there's actually 138 people on the waiting list, so we want to ensure that that is put in the record.

 

The question about the number of overpayments in IA, they are down but there are still many. We have 5,789 outstanding payments and the year before it was 6,179.

Finally, there was a question with respect to children placed for adoption and breaking down the ages; 0 to 4 years, there's 71; 5 to 10 years there's 32; and 11 to 18 years there's 19, so 122 children and youth were able, through the Department of Community Services, to find a forever home.

 

Mr. Chairman, allow me to say my final words, which will probably make many people quite happy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E3 stand?

 

Resolution E3 stands.

 

Resolution E34 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $1,859,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Seniors, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E34 carry?

 

Resolution E34 is carried.

 

Thank you very much, minister, for the great job you have done and thank you. I'm sorry, we're out of time. You've had a lot of time, member, so it is exactly one hour.

 

We thank the minister and we will take about a five-minute break as we await the Fisheries and Environment departments.

 

[4:08 p.m. The committee recessed.]

 

[4:25 p.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: We will now call the estimates of the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

 

Resolution E10 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $9,044,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture, pursuant to the Estimate, and the business plan of the Nova Scotia Fisheries and Aquaculture Loan Board be approved.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister, members, we are ready to have the opening remarks from the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture. Minister, any time you're ready.

 

HON. STERLING BELLIVEAU: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. To my colleagues around the table today, I think the members are familiar with the staff with me but I certainly want to introduce them anyway. Rosalind Penfound was supposed to be here, Deputy Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture; Leo Muise, executive director is joining me on my left side and Weldon Myers will be joining us in the process eventually here, the Department of Finance and the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture, and Jennifer Thompson, director of Finance is joining us today.

 

Mr. Chairman, I have a number of staff in the background. I guess you don't get too many opportunities to welcome all the staff and the hard work they do but I really appreciate their dedication and work in following me in the process, as the minister.

 

Mr. Chairman, it's an honour to serve Nova Scotians as both Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture and as Minister of Environment. These two departments touch on so much of what we value in Nova Scotia and that's certainly what makes me proud to be minister of both. It's no surprise to any of you that Nova Scotia fisheries and aquaculture industries have a special place in my heart as I grew up literally in the fisheries. Fishing and aquaculture and seafood are part of who we are as Nova Scotians, and they are all part of our history.

 

They are also a very important part of our future and that's what I want to talk about today. As this government promised, Mr. Chairman, we have brought the province back to balance and the credit of getting back to balance belongs to all Nova Scotians. We are one of the only provinces in Canada to table a balanced budget this year.

 

Mr. Chairman, my colleague, the Minister of Finance, outlined the numbers last week when she delivered her Budget Address. I don't need to repeat what she said but my message is the same, the past four years have required sacrifice and commitment by making the right decisions in tough times. We are building a better future for Nova Scotia families.

 

Mr. Chairman, Nova Scotia is starting to turn the corner. In front of us are unparalleled opportunities for families in this province. Nova Scotians must take advantage of these opportunities

 

Our primary industries are still the heart of our economy, fishing, aquaculture, agriculture and the forestry contribute significantly to our provincial exports. I know that I don't have to tell anyone how important fisheries and aquaculture are to Nova Scotia, but I will anyway. Fisheries and aquaculture are the backbone of our coastal and rural communities; the seafood industry overall contributes significantly to Nova Scotia's economy each year. The fish landings in 2011 were $750 million, lobsters worth half of the overall value. Sport fishing generated $86 million to the economy in this activity. Aquaculture generated nearly $50 million. Seafood exports in 2011 were worth $922 million. All together, the fishing, aquaculture and seafood processing industries employed more than 18,000 people in Nova Scotia. This doesn't include the economic activity and jobs in sectors such as tourism, culture, food services and hospitalities that bolster the excellent reputation Nova Scotia has because of our fisheries, aquaculture and seafood industries.

 

World over, one of the first things people think about when they think of Nova Scotia is our fisheries, and I couldn't be more proud of that knowing my family's background, but we have our own challenges. Fuel prices continue to rise; investment in our seafood infrastructure has lagged for several years; and, simply put, the cost of getting started in the fisheries or in aquaculture are a major impediment for a lot of younger people who want to get into the business. These are real problems and they're impacting communities from one end of the province to the next. Some sectors have been particularly hard hit in recent years by low prices paid for lobsters and this has caused particular stress on fishers and fish harvesters this past year. Our government recognizes what these challenges are and we've certainly been working to address them. If we do it right we can seize opportunities.

 

Early this year I met with many fish harvesters and industry representatives at the annual Fisheries and Aquaculture Ministers Conference. I asked for their advice on some of the issues that our industry faces and how we can create opportunities if we work together and I listened to what they had to say. Over those days my department gathered a lot of valuable information and feedback from our stakeholders. It's going to help guide our business planning and one of the focuses of discussion was the importance of safety in the fishing industry and the fact that everyone has a role to play from fish harvesters, Workers' Compensation Board of Nova Scotia, the Fisheries Safety Association, DFO and, of course, our own department.

 

We have experienced our tragedies, as we did recently with the loss of five young men from the Miss Ally from my home port. Five young men - five members of our community - some of them have families of their own. One loss of life is one too many, but a tragedy like the Miss Ally drives home why we must make safety a priority in the commercial fisheries, and we will.

 

As indicated in the Speech from the Throne, we will also introduce a Mariners' Day Act in this setting to honour the memory of the crew of the Miss Ally and to pay tribute to all the men and women who have lost their lives while fishing from Nova Scotia ports. This day will also be an opportunity to promote workplace safety amongst fish harvesters and their families.

 

As you know, in February I went to Ottawa to address the Senate Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans to talk to them about the challenges facing the lobster fisheries and to offer Ottawa solutions. One of my suggestions is for Ottawa to give lobster harvesters access to undeveloped species like green crabs, hagfish, quahogs, Irish moss and a number of other species. I hope my critics will raise this particular question during our discussions and I look forward to some of their comments and questions on this topic.

 

Several Nova Scotia fishermen and fish harvesters have applied to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to fish stone crabs and other undeveloped species and have been denied. I repeat - denied - due to a lack of scientific information or old data. Well, if we need scientific information - and that's the message that I took to Ottawa - and new data, let's get some. This province is willing to partner with the DFO in Ottawa to help support the scientific research necessary to develop two exploratory species and to pay our share. I told the committee that providing Nova Scotia lobster harvesters with access to undeveloped species will help them diversify and supplement their income.

 

Mr. Chairman, I also told the senators that Ottawa needs to provide clearer directions on our struggling lobster fisheries. One of the things I raised was a trial balloon that was floated about the possibility of quotas for the inshore lobster fisheries by the federal DFO. Let me tell you, I have spoken to many fish harvesters and the community leaders who are concerned about the federal DFO comment. A quota system for the inshore lobster fisheries could jeopardize the independence of the fisheries and further erode small business and reduce independent harvesters.

 

Other federal announcements on changes to the lobster tag or trap-tag program and EI reform have been troubling at a time when the lobster fishery needs stability. The lobster fishery employs thousands of Nova Scotians, many of whom are seasonal employees who rely on EI benefits. The federal government needs to understand the realities of living in parts of Canada. Mr. Chairman, I want to say that again, the federal government needs to understand the realities of living in rural Canada and through Nova Scotia's coastal areas our lobster industry depends on these experienced workers.

 

I make note again, Mr. Chairman, I hope my colleagues opposite will take the opportunity to raise questions on this particular file because I know that many communities have a deep interest in EI reform. The Government of Nova Scotia has consistently expressed Nova Scotia's concerns to the federal government about EI benefit changes and their impact on those who work in the fisheries. They need to listen to the voices of thousands of people in this industry who are expressing concerns and frustration.

 

Mr. Chairman, I would like to take a minute to go back and talk about our lobster industry. The lobster industry is complex; lobsters have many markets and many players. They also affect each other in various ways. The industry continues to feel the effects of low market prices, negative currency change, high operating costs and the demands for sustainable approach to fishing and management and increased health and safety concerns.

 

Pricing has been at the top of the list this year and naturally I have great concerns. My department will work in any way it can to assist and support the lobster fish harvesters. We are working in the international market with industry and the Lobster Council of Canada to expand our markets and the Lobster Council plays a critical role in all of this. The Lobster Council includes all segments of the industry, from harvesters, processors and buyers to union representatives, First Nations, lobster advisory committees and fishing associations.

 

Mr. Chairman, we must continue with this united front if we are to strengthen the image of our lobster and make it available as a top-quality product sold in high end markets world-wide. We have also supported signs and stewardship initiatives for the Fishermen and Scientists Research Society. In fact, I should point out that this year is the society's 20^th Anniversary and we recognize the significant contributions they are making to our industry. We will continue to support this important industry through legislation changes around certification and organization, financial support for the Lobster Council of Canada, and through marketing initiatives.

 

Mr. Chairman, at the heart of our seafood industry lies the ability to export and reach new markets. The Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture continues to maintain a presence at major international seafood shows this year, led by ERDT. We once again participated in the International Boston Seafood Show with both myself and Leo Muise there for support.

 

At the 2013 Boston International Seafood Show, six exhibitors showed in our Nova Scotia booth. That is in addition to other independent exhibitors attending from Nova Scotia. As you know, I want to recognize the City of Boston, as yesterday's events unfolded there. Our thoughts and prayers are with those people and I know you join in saying that our contribution of a Christmas tree this year will be especially, I think, a little larger. Our thoughts and prayers are with them because of the events of April 15, 2013.

 

Business leaders collected from all over the United States and all corners of the globe and the show attracted buyers from over 50 countries to Boston. I'm very pleased to say that the St. Mary's River Smokehouses in Sherbrooke, Guysborough County won the Best New Retail Award for their oven-smoked salmon mix. I can tell you that having a product chosen as a best new product is a big deal at the Boston Seafood Show, it's another example of the high calibre of seafood products that Nova Scotia has to offer to the world.

 

I have attended these shows on several occasions over the years and I've seen first-hand how much work goes into presenting ourselves to the world. Our provincial staff do an amazing job, Mr. Chairman, of putting Nova Scotia's best foot forward and showing buyers from all over the world why they should buy Nova Scotia seafood. Simply put, it's some of the best quality, best value of seafood found anywhere.

 

We will continue our work here at home with the Select Nova Scotia campaign that promotes the benefits of choosing local seafood. Select Nova Scotia is a government ongoing domestic market development campaign that helps promote and educate Nova Scotians about local agri-food and seafood products. An example of the program's success is the more than 8,000 Nova Scotians who attended the 12 IncrEDIBLE Picnics held last summer across Nova Scotia.

Since Select first began in 2007, awareness of buying local has increased 33 per cent. Markets for farmer markets are popping up across the province and Nova Scotians are buying more local food. We recently raised the profile of Select Nova Scotia by updating its visible identity and incorporating the provincial flag, ensuring our products are recognized to Nova Scotians here in the province and around the world. On March 25^th we also launched a new TV commercial that is airing on CBC, CTV and Global and we'll continue to invest in Select Nova Scotia to promote local foods because it's good for consumers and it's good for fishers and sea farmers.

 

Today's fisheries put many demands on fish harvesters and the industry. One way these demands must be addressed is through strong representation from organizations. They are essential to making sure fish harvesters' voices are being heard and their needs and interests are being addressed. That is why in 2012, after extensive consultation with the industry, we brought forward and passed the new Fish Harvester Organizations Support Act (FHOSA). We have recently finalized a new regulation for this Act and FHOSA was brought forward to strengthen fisheries organizations. It provides the tools for inshore fishers to strengthen their organizations, that is why they can more effectively manage their interests on issues such as fishery management decisions and marine safety and take advantage of market opportunities. FHOSA makes it easier for groups to organize around common, economic and in some cases species in geographical interests. FHOSA's registration system is up and running effective April 1, 2013.

 

Mr. Chairman, in a similar vein, my department introduced and passed the new Fish Harvesters Registration and Certification Board Act. It will help establish a board that will register and certify fish harvesters based on their knowledge and experience. It will also support skills and training opportunities. Government has worked closely with industry groups in 2010 to successfully pilot a registration and certification program spearheaded by the Nova Scotia Fisheries Sector Council.

 

Mr. Chairman, the next step is to have the federal government recognize the efforts of the Sector Council and others in the industry and support them financially, as they do in other provinces. The new legislation will strengthen rural communities by helping to revitalize and develop the commercial fisheries. As we promote Nova Scotia seafood products all over the world, we must be ready to address eco-labelling and traceability. The Marine Stewardship Council is at the forefront of eco-labelling and if important markets demand MSC, we must give it to them.

 

On the eco-labelling front, we are promoting and partnering on 13 different MSC projects. Our seafood sector renewal program was instrumental in getting most of these off the ground. Lobsters will be next up in the certification process and, like all other species, would benefit from certifying status. The process will require every bit of co-operation, effort, and resources that the industry can provide. We are also actively participating on the national traceability task force group, working with DFO to develop a strategic framework and pursue pilot projects. Eventually, Mr. Chairman, traceability will involve the entire value chain, from nets, hooks and traps to the store shelf.

Mr. Chairman, there are tremendous opportunities to grow our aquaculture industry. It's a perfect fit for our coastal communities, our infrastructure and our marine resources. We are committed to growing a sustainable aquaculture industry while respecting the environment and sharing the coastal resources. Nova Scotia has a new strategy for aquaculture development that will help the efforts to grow a sustainable industry and create wealth in rural and coastal communities.

 

The strategy identifies and builds on four key pillars, Mr. Chairman; farming responsibly, aquaculture engagement, regulatory safeguards, and jobs and the economy. The strategy was created after consulting with aquaculture industry, the Mi'kmaq community and the public. Our strategy demonstrates our commitment to ensuring aquaculture development is done in a way that protects the environment and traditional fisheries.

 

There is a bright future for aquaculture in Nova Scotia and this strategy will guide us to there. Our aquaculture industry is one of the most diverse in the world, including many different species of finfish and shellfish, as well as Irish moss and other sea plants. It boasts the largest land-based production facilities in the world and every country has a link to this industry.

 

Aquaculture is also a significant contributor to our rural and coastal communities, worth about $50 million annually, creating over 750 direct and, more importantly, or just as important, 1,000 indirect jobs. As promised, with the Aquaculture Strategy we are also moving forward on the process of developing a new regulatory framework for Nova Scotia's aquaculture industry.

 

Mr. Chairman, the aquaculture industry has outgrown the existing legislation and regulations. Within the Aquaculture Strategy the government is committed to developing and implementing a regulatory framework for the aquaculture industry that will be state-of-the-art and that is what we plan to deliver.

 

Sport fishing remains one of the most popular outdoor activities in Nova Scotia and it draws in tourism from around the world, whether it's for fly-fishing salmon on the Margaree or bass fishing in one of our lakes and rivers. One I enjoy is simply going out and casting for a few mackerel.

 

Each year we work with angler associations, environment groups, wildlife advocates and river associations to restore fish habitats through the Nova Scotia Sportfish Habitat Fund. In 2012, the Nova Scotia Sportfish Habitat Fund contributed $290,000 to support 25 fish habitat restoration projects. These projects were undertaken by community groups through the Nova Scotia Salmon Association and the NSLC Adopt-a-Stream Program. These efforts resulted in amazing restorations, more than 54 kilometres of fish pathways and 128,000 square metres of stream were restored.

 

We continue to get more and more Nova Scotians involved in recreation sport fishing through programs like Learn to Fish, Becoming an Outdoors-Woman, and Families United with Nature. We are committed to giving interest groups the tools and information they need to take up the sport, including seniors, women, school groups and families. This year we are also moving forward with important new regulations to help protect fish native to Nova Scotians and the recreational sport fishing industry by addressing invasive species.

 

Invasive species are not naturally found in an area, they are introduced by people - sometimes accidentally, sometimes intentionally - who are often unaware of the consequences. Smallmouth bass have been documented in more than 240 locations in Nova Scotia and chain pickerel occur in about 50 lakes. Both have had negative impacts on native species as they compete for space and diet. Invasive species have threatened the province's sport fishing of speckled trout, the endangered species of the inner Bay of Fundy, Atlantic salmon and the Atlantic whitefish. The new regulations will limit these people who are in possession of live fish that introduce invasive species to provincial waterways.

 

Mr. Chairman, as you know, last May I announced that our department's headquarters and 20 jobs were moving to Cornwallis, our aquaculture division and 15 jobs were going to Shelburne. I am pleased to say that we have staff working out of temporary spaces in Cornwallis Park and the Nova Scotia Community College in Shelburne, respectively. While working on permanent locations, we are certainly moving in that direction. We will be in a permanent place in both locations by September of this year. As I said, this government is looking for innovative ways to create good jobs and grow the economy in all parts of this province. The move is being completed and is on budget.

 

Our government is committed to the long-term growth and prosperity of our primary resource industry. The Nova Scotia fisheries support vibrant rural communities and the families that live in them. We will continue to work toward taking action to support the sector's creation of more efficient, productive and innovative ways of doing business. This government knows the health of the fisheries and the economy of those who fish for a living are important to Nova Scotians. We must do everything we can to keep our primary industries healthy and our resources sustainable. That is why this government is making decisions that matter to Nova Scotians.

 

I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, and at this time I'll be happy to entertain some questions from my honoured guests. Thank you.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister, we will now have the Liberal caucus for one hour of questioning.

 

The honourable member for Richmond.

 

HON. MICHEL SAMSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Minister. You referred to the movement of the aquaculture division and the fisheries division - I think you said aquaculture went to Shelburne, is that correct?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Yes, that's correct.

 

MR. SAMSON: If I'm correct, I think you said it was 15 employees in the aquaculture division?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to the honourable member, my understanding of that is approximately 12 positions for the aquaculture in Shelburne.

 

MR. SAMSON: Of the 12 positions, were there any existing staff who made the move from Halifax to Shelburne?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Thank you very much for the question, through the Chair to the honourable member, my understanding is there are two. Again, in my speech I talked about this as being temporary positions in both these places and the permanent location will be complete by September. Yes, we're very fortunate to have this opportunity and people in place in the Shelburne area. Thank you.

 

MR. SAMSON: You have two permanent staff who moved over. Of the remaining 10, have all those positions been filled by now?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: To the member opposite, my understanding is there are six positions that have been filled. There is an ongoing exercise of recruitment and we're on track to meeting the commitment of getting these positions all filled. I said that things will be in place permanently by September.

 

I want to assure the member opposite that there is a recruitment process in place and it is moving ahead as scheduled. There are a number of positions being filled as we speak and I continue to be impressed by all the different - really the commitments and the testimonials that are coming from the community that is actually appreciative of these positions in both Cornwallis and Shelburne.

 

So to me it's something that we really said we would do and I guess some of the feedback I have received from the community is that people in Shelburne come up to me and said that I've got to give you credit for your government to actually - you talked about doing this and you lived up to your word, you actually went out and did this and we have people in the positions from those communities. They are very appreciative of our commitment to move the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture not only to Cornwallis but also to Shelburne.

 

MR. SAMSON: I guess this is two parts - who is the Director of Aquaculture right now and when do you expect to have the six positions filled in Shelburne?

MR. BELLIVEAU: The director is Marshall Giles. The positions that we say we'll have all filled will be in place by September. That's something we are committed to.

 

MR. SAMSON: Is Marshall Giles down in Shelburne right now?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Mr. Giles is working at both places, as we speak, that will be in Halifax and Shelburne. We are looking forward to getting a permanent basis up and going in the community college in Shelburne by the first of September.

 

Again, this is something that our communities have really taken an opportunity to appreciate. I just want to, if I could, Mr. Chairman, talk about some of the comments that have actually contributed to my talking about the testimonies about our communities. I think I could go on for hours about the fisheries move and to me there are some editorials or letters to the editor that I think I want to make reference to if I could take the time here to talk about the move, especially to Cornwallis and Digby. I can table this after, but I want to read for the members opposite.

 

I will quote from the Digby Courier editorial, Linchpin for Area, November 15, 2012. I'm just going to read a portion of that editorial for your pleasure: Lease rates in Halifax currently paid by Fisheries were about to climb to competitive levels so the critics of the Cornwallis rate might bear that in mind. They might also remember that moving Fisheries here brings 22 jobs to a region where they can make a difference or a real difference. The Fisheries office will also become a linchpin in the future of Cornwallis Park. That was signed by Peter MacLellan, former communications director for the last Nova Scotia Liberal Government. I can table that for the pleasure of my critics here.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister, maybe we will have the document tabled, the first one that you read, thank you.

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Mr. Chairman, the point I'm trying to make here is there are a number of testimonies out in the community and I can assure you when I visit the Town of Shelburne that people are very pleased with the ongoing progress of moving these departments from downtown Halifax. I don't need speaker notes, I don't need props or whatever, but I can tell you that the industry, when it comes to Fisheries and Aquaculture, the infrastructure, the marine hardware, the jobs, the people who get up every morning and go to work don't go to downtown Halifax where the present office is located. They get up in rural Nova Scotia and go to work, they go out on the water in Digby. One of our famous Digby scallop fleets does not tie up in Halifax, they go to the wharf in Digby and you can literally look out of Cornwallis and see the fleet there in Shelburne.

 

You can see the aquaculture sites in that harbour and when I drive into Shelburne - I want to share this testimony with you - when I walk down the street and a lady of my age knows that they have a child who has gone to university and experienced that chapter in their life, when they go out and get educated and they have the opportunity to move back and become part of this move, that is really a moving testimony in a community where they know that they have security there where they can raise a family. Again, the point I'm trying make here is that this move about moving jobs out of downtown Halifax is a great idea. The idea is about where you have a marine-based industry dealing with fisheries and aquaculture, this is where the activity is going on, this is where the Irish moss is, this is where the lobster fishermen, this is where the groundfishers all are actively participating. Why does it not make sense to have a Fisheries and Aquaculture division located in rural Nova Scotia?

 

I hope the member opposite can appreciate those comments and at this time, I'll return to questions and answers.

MR. SAMSON: I was going to say the minister is going to return to normal programming, but I'm not sure why we required that defence there when I simply asked where Marshall Giles was working, but anyway, so be it. Is it the intention that the director of aquaculture will be based in Shelburne permanently as of September?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: The intention is yes, that's where the Aquaculture Division is and Marshall Giles' position will be located there.

 

MR. SAMSON: As far as the positions for the Fisheries Division that will be in Cornwallis, did I understand it was 15 positions that would be in Cornwallis?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: The short answer is there are 20 positions in Cornwallis.

 

MR. SAMSON: Of the 20, how many are currently filled? Let me ask first, how many of the existing staff that would have been in Halifax have made the move to Cornwallis?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: The short answer is two.

 

MR. SAMSON: Of those remaining 18, how many have been filled as of now?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Again, to date there have been 11 positions that have been filled in the Cornwallis and Shelburne area. There have been 11 positions that have been filled. I said earlier in my remarks that there is an ongoing recruitment process and we're confident that this will be done in a timely fashion. We look forward to the permanent opening in September.

 

MR. SAMSON: You said six positions were filled in Shelburne. If you're saying 11 positions now between the two, I'm left to assume that means five for Cornwallis. Does that mean the two that moved from Halifax and three other positions have been filled, leaving you with 15 positions still open for Cornwallis?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: The answer is yes, but we have also been actively recruiting five others that are in the process of being evaluated and discussed.

MR. SAMSON: So as we speak right now there are still 15 positions vacant for the Cornwallis office of the Fisheries Division of your department - is that correct?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Yes, that's correct.

 

MR. SAMSON: Who is the director of the Fisheries Division?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: My understanding is Mr. Muise is actually filling that position now as we speak. This particular move is something that - there is a process in place that we're going to be seeing permanent positions in Shelburne and Cornwallis. We don't want to lose sight of what is taking place here. We can get caught up in - is somebody going through an exercise of recruitment and how is that playing out here? I don't think that's the focus. The focus to me is that this is a great move establishing permanent jobs in the long term in rural Nova Scotia. This is what this is about. This is about when people get up in the morning and go out, and whether they're going Irish-mossing or long-lining or any kind of ground-fishing or any kind of aquaculture - they know that the government of the day made conscious decisions to remove jobs from downtown Halifax.

 

I take my walks around the waterfront in Halifax on a nice evening like tonight and I look at the traffic in the harbour and I do not see herring seiners tying up at this wharf, unloading their catch. I do not see, unless I go to Eastern Passage, too many down here by the ferry terminal unloading their catch of lobsters. I don't see Irish mossers landing their products next to the ferry terminal in this city.

 

When I go to places like Shag Harbour and Bear Point and Wedgeport, I see activity, I see commercial fishermen out there harvesting Irish moss or harvesting rockweed. They talk to me about that move. They don't ask questions like is there one position that may be filled in a month's time? They say I'm delighted that we have an opportunity to walk into that office in my downtown of Shelburne or Cornwallis and that is directly related, in close proximity, to where the activity is going.

 

This is what this is about, this is about creating good, dependable jobs in rural Nova Scotia. To me it's one of the best things that we have done in being in this government for four years. Sometime in the future when I get the opportunity to reflect, I'm going to say you know that was a great decision because there are people - the testimony I said earlier - when people of my age can walk up to me and say that their child went through university and when they stop and say that this government gave them an opportunity in a decision that was made to relocate jobs that are centralized in downtown Halifax, that gave them an opportunity to go and get their education and be part of that structure and develop an aquaculture industry and to be part of that in downtown Shelburne is really an accomplishment. To me, that is something that is valued.

 

Yes, when I go out in the communities and I observe people talking about all the things that are taking place in the fishing industry, I don't get criticized for moving good jobs to rural Nova Scotia. Mr. Chairman, I actually get complimented many times and I think I could go into great detail about the communities, the councillors in the communities and I know I can reflect back on it in Cornwallis and the councillors in the Digby area, how appreciative they were of this move. They know that those 20 positions going to Digby will have an impact on that community.

 

Will it affect the tax base? I know it will, I know that this move will have an effect of bringing those 20 families to that community - 20 jobs. Many times they have spouses or family members who are attached to those positions, who follow them to those jobs. They are buying hardware in the hardware store, they are out buying and participating in sports events, so they are complementing that community.

 

When you talk with the councillors in that area, they are very supportive of this initiative, of what you are doing. So those are the testimonies that are really beneficial to our community. We have to reflect on that and have to give an opportunity to voice that. I'm glad that we have that opportunity in this debate regarding the move to Shelburne County and I look forward and thank the member opposite for the question.

 

MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, I think it's one thing for the minister to argue that this is moving jobs to rural Nova Scotia but with all due respect, minister, I hope you are cognizant of the fact that in Shelburne and in Cornwallis you're not going to see too many crab boats coming in, you're not going to see too many shrimp boats coming in and you're not going to see too many lobster fishermen who have shrimp trap licences coming in. So with all due respect, while your move may have made it easier to walk to the office in Shelburne or Cornwallis, it's a hell of a long walk from Arichat and Petit-de-Grat where millions of dollars of crab and shrimp are landed.

Let's be honest here, this was not something that was convenient for all fishermen in Nova Scotia. You can argue that it's good jobs but for God's sake, don't try to say that it's convenient for all the fishermen in Nova Scotia. You can argue it's good jobs, but for God's sake don't try to say that it's convenient for every fisherman in Nova Scotia to move them where you did. For half of Nova Scotia, you've made the offices even further out of reach than they already were sitting in downtown Halifax so that's a fairly weak argument and I would hope the minister realizes that there is a fishery on the eastern coast, on the other side of Halifax.

 

I wanted to go to the budget itself - on Page 12.3 under Office of the Minister, the estimate for 2012-13 was only $601,000, but the forecast came in more than $1 million higher at $1.712 million. Could you explain why there is such a difference in the minister's office budget from what was budgeted and what is in the forecast?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: First of all, while my staff gets the page that we want to discuss regarding the finances, I want to go back and address the member's question dealing with relocating Fisheries to the heart of the fishing industry. I've done the scenario a number of times and I want to do it for the member opposite because I think it's a valid point that needs to be addressed here. The member opposite talked about the different species that are landed within Nova Scotia and he raised questions about how it may not be the proper location to relocate Fisheries and Aquaculture from a city to where Nova Scotia's actual fishery is taking place. I want to address that dead on because I think it's a valid point. I think it's a valid point that all fishers who can hear my voice, who can possibly read this in Hansard, to seriously look at the member's comments.

 

I want you to visualize where we moved the Aquaculture Division and if you can use the analogy of using a goal post and using that post to stake out the move to the Town of Shelburne in one of the third-largest natural harbours in the world. If you could visualize a goal post being entertained or imaginary put in the Cornwallis-Digby area. You have two goal posts that I have helped you visualize and where the fisheries activity of Nova Scotia - of the Maritimes, of Canada - is located. This is the point that I want to drive home as a goal. I want you to understand that the market value of landed species in total between those two goal posts in our beautiful Province of Nova Scotia produces and lands the majority of product value in Atlantic Canada and Nova Scotia.

 

When my voice is heard from the Grand Banks of Newfoundland and Labrador to Georges Bank, I am confident when I speak that we made the right decision and knowing the landed value of Canada and North America and the Atlantic Provinces, that the landed value generated between those goal posts, we made the right decision of putting them - Aquaculture Division and the Fisheries Division - in those two places. I'm hoping that people will appreciate that because I surely looked at the statistics and I know the importance of that area. Can we go out, which we do, across Nova Scotia and have representation across there? I can assure you, the point that I'm trying to make - the goal posts are those two communities and we hit a home run.

 

MR. SAMSON: I'm wondering, since you sit in Cabinet, if that's the logic that was used for locating the Fisheries offices, would you say that New Waterford is the goalpost and the hotbed of deadbeat dads in Nova Scotia, which is why the Maintenance Enforcement offices were moved to New Waterford? I'm just wondering if you could, on the record, confirm that your government has chosen that?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Member, I think that's another . . .

 

MR. SAMSON: Let him say he doesn't want to answer it.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: It's another department.

 

MR. SAMSON: He's a member of Cabinet and if that's the logic they used for this office I think it's more than fair to ask if that's the same logic that's used throughout government in other departments as well and whether he's willing to say that New Waterford is the goalpost and the hotbed of deadbeat dads in Nova Scotia?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think that would be better handled by other estimates. As chairman, we're dealing with Fisheries and we will proceed with Fisheries. Thank you.

MR. SAMSON: Then he can answer the question.

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I think I have the member opposite's attention when it comes to my reference to goalposts in the fishing industry. I know with all confidence that the fishing industry is very active between the two points that I made reference to. I have no hesitation to stand on any wharf in the Maritimes and defend that location. I have no hesitation to walk down the streets of any community and say that this is the right move. We are committed to creating good, economic growth in rural communities and we did it, we actually did that. To me the perfect home is why not have the third-largest natural harbour in the world. I know, Mr. Chairman, you've travelled through and you know that area well. In fact, I know that you have land, I believe, an investment - I don't want to get into your personal belongings, but I believe you have some personal investments in the Shelburne County, Yarmouth County areas, I don't want to go down that path, but you know how beautiful that area is.

 

I want to reflect on Shelburne, to me there is a jewel there that has been long overlooked and to have the opportunity to relocate the Aquaculture Division of the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture in the Town of Shelburne and knowing that it's the third-largest natural harbour, knowing the dollar value that is landed between those two points, between Shelburne and Cornwallis. I visualize on the other side, the Bay of Fundy and I'm not going to ask you if you have any personal property there, but I know it is the home of the famous Digby fleet.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Since you put the chairman on the spot, my personal involvement in investment has been from Seal Island to Louisbourg, Cape Breton, so I identify with both the member for Richmond and you, Mr. Minister. Thank you.

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: I hadn't finished, Mr. Chairman, I was hoping you would give me the opportunity to finish my point.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, continue.

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: The point I was trying to finish is I'm really thankful that we took the opportunity to examine this question about the move. I am confident that the industry can support the landed values between these two points, between Cornwallis and Shelburne. I highlighted earlier about the third-largest natural harbour in the world and to me, this has been under-utilized for years in Shelburne and to me, there are many opportunities with having this natural harbour in my constituency, but I also appreciate the Bay of Fundy. Again, I want to point out the famous Digby fleet and to me, I'm just bringing recognition to where this move has been located and to have the opportunity to say that the fishing industry, the majority of the activity, the landed value in eastern Canada, the Eastern Seaboard, is generated from these two points. To me there's a value in that and I haven't seen anybody say that we were wrong in identifying those areas as the home of the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture. Thank you.

 

MR. SAMSON: My original question as why does the minister's budget for your office have an extra $1 million than what was budgeted and I haven't gotten an answer to that yet.

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Mr. Chairman, the budget increase in the minister's office is a result of reallocating funds in the department reorganization.

 

MR. SAMSON: What does that mean, reallocating funds? How is anyone supposed to understand that? It's $1 million, what did you spend $1 million on?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Mr. Chairman, the question regarding the funding is the increase in the 2013 budget for increase in the product development budget.

 

MR. SAMSON: Okay, I'm talking about last year, at the end your estimate for 2012-13 was for $600,000. At the end of the day you were at $1.7 million, over $1 million difference. This would have been money spent last year. Where did you spend an extra $1 million last year in the Office of the Minister?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, the information is the increase in equipment purchases was $250,000 and the increase in relocation expenses was $144,200, an increase in office rental was $25,000.

 

MR. SAMSON: My math is not great but $250,000 plus $144,000 plus $25,000 isn't a country mile near $1 million. Any guess as to what the almost $600,000 was spent on?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Just to add to that, the increase in supplies and services, maintaining building maintenance was $140,100, the increase in professional services was $199,000. Again, I want to point out that what I said earlier was the increase in equipment purchases was $250,000, Mr. Chairman, and the increases in relocation of allocation of expenses was $144,200 and increase in office rental was $25,000.

 

MR. SAMSON: The $199,000 for professional services, what's the breakdown of that?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for your patience. The money, the question was regarding communications for staff and for staff transition.

 

MR. SAMSON: Communications to staff and staff transition, $199,000 from the Office of the Minister. What services to staff came out of the Office of the Minister to make up $199,000? Is it severance? Is it transition funding? If it is, how is that broken down and calculated?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, we will ask the staff. The member opposite is asking for some detailed information. We'll commit to getting all that information for him but we'll try our best here. The key activities for the program is for budget for human resources and program management for the department. It represents the interest of Nova Scotia fishing and aquaculture industries in the communities provincially, nationally and internationally, policy developments for fisheries and aquaculture sectors and providing support for government and the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture on different serious issues. I just want to echo again that the member opposite is asking for details and our staff is committed to flushing them out and getting them to them in the appropriate time.

 

MR. SAMSON: You bought another $250,000 of equipment from the Office of the Minister? What equipment did you buy from the Office of the Minister for $250,000?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Some of this money that the member opposite is talking about is for workstations. I actually had the privilege of visiting Shelburne and I know that this is a large building or large portion of room in the Shelburne community college and workstations, I believe, will be very suited, but this is where some of this money is going for these expenditures. Again, I don't want to get back to echo my comments, but this is money that's well spent.

 

MR. SAMSON: Why would this not be coming out of the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal? My understanding is they're responsible for office space. Why are you paying for workstations out of your ministerial budget for what traditionally should have fallen under the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal? Are you saying that your department is responsible for the lease, operation and management of both the Shelburne space and the Cornwallis space rather than TIR?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: We are gathering all the expenses for one place to move this and this is something that we feel is something we can do within our department. Again, we're very pleased that we have an opportunity to move these positions.

 

MR. SAMSON: Where did you underspend in other parts of your budget to make up an extra $1 million out of the Office of the Minister?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Just for clarity, can I ask the member to readdress the question, please?

 

MR. SAMSON: In your estimate for 2012-13, you estimated you would spend $600,000 in the Office of the Minister. At the end of the day, you spent $1.712 million, which is over $1 million extra. Where in your department did you find $1 million, which I'm assuming - well, there are two things: either you ran a deficit in your department or you found $1 million through other parts of your department. My question is, where did you take money from that was allocated for other divisions to get the $1 million or are you acknowledging today that your department overspent from its estimate budget in 2012-13?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: I can tell you that I grew up in a community where you do not overspend and I've been taught some very early lessons. The question relating to where these monies come from, these are mainly vacancies of salaries. That's where most of the money came from.

 

I'm very proud of the fact that we have balanced a budget. I'm very pleased and very proud of when our Minister of Finance rose and talked about introducing a balanced budget. I'm very pleased that we've gone through the exercise of being very conscious and efficient in helping not only our department - the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture and the Department of Environment - but all the other departments that have gone through this exercise, and we have produced a balanced budget. We have gone through this line by line and, to me, the member opposite - I just want to refresh the memory that my understanding is the last time the Liberal Government actually in the province tabled a balanced budget was in 1976, and the colour of my hair was somewhat different, but I'm pleased.

 

The point I'm trying to make, Mr. Chairman, is that this process has been to live within our means and do the right things for all Nova Scotians. Whether you want to talk about the move, making them move, moving our departments from downtown Halifax to rural Nova Scotia and giving opportunities and creating good jobs in rural Nova Scotia and to have an opportunity to balance the budget, to me it gives me great pleasure to know that we have a part of this process and we have accomplished this. We have rolled up our sleeves and actually literally done this in the best interests of all Nova Scotians.

 

I'm very pleased that we've had an opportunity to contribute and do our share in balancing the books of Nova Scotia. Thank you.

 

MR. SAMSON: So you're basically saying the extra $1 million was made up in salaries that weren't spent. For aquaculture your estimate last year was $1.749 million. The forecast came in lower, at $1.6 million, almost a $150,000 difference. In this year's budget you've got an estimate of $2.663 million under aquaculture. What is the reason for this increase and what is that meant for?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Mr. Chairman, the majority of this money that the member brings up is to implement the new Aquaculture Strategy. Again I want to point out the opportunity to speak to that. I can tell you that this is something that Nova Scotians look forward to and to know that I actually commented on some of it in my opening remarks, about how important the Aquaculture Strategy is to a good number of Nova Scotians who actually understand the need for this particular strategy.

 

Certainly the aquaculture sector can be both economic contributors to our province and an economic or environmentally responsible neighbour. Again, I pointed out in my earlier remarks that the sector contributed over $50 million to the economy each year and that value could triple in the next five years.

 

What I wanted to talk about is within our Aquaculture Strategy we actually have gone out and consulted with the Mi'kmaq community, our fishing industry, and to me there is an opportunity to do things right, to protect the traditional fisheries and also to protect the environment. Some of the commitments that we actually have done in our Aquaculture Strategy are to do two reviews that I know there's a number of interest in our coastal communities. One of those reviews was of bay management. The other one that I think a lot of people may be in discussion on is the closed containment. It is something that our review is in the process of doing, as we speak.

 

The closed containment is something that Nova Scotia is a leader in. Many people may not realize that a number of applications or projects or businesses across Nova Scotia - and Nova Scotia is the leader in fact in the Atlantic Provinces when it comes to closed containment.

 

Mr. Chairman, I know that if you had the privilege of going down and visiting Shelburne County you may be interested in knowing that the Irish moss plant, the Acadia Seaplants in my home town and I can literally - when I was younger - could throw a rock to where that site is now but please don't ask me to do that now. Acadia Seaplants is one of the largest land-based marine Irish moss plants there is, to my understanding, in North America. It is located in the heart of the fishing community.

 

I made reference again about one of the busiest, active, fishing communities in Nova Scotia in Acadia Seaplants. I've done this on a number of occasions, Mr. Chairman, when I had the privilege of having Dalhousie marine science class come to my community. In the last three years I can boast that they've done this each year on the day before the opening of our lobster season, the marine class from Dalhousie has visited my community and I had the privilege of touring the area, my home community, and showing them all the sights.

 

On the final leg of our journey - the bus trip that we go on - I actually go on and do some emceeing. They give me the microphone and I do my little - this is the local boatbuilder or this is the wharf in my community. Before we end, we always end usually near East Pubnico and the Yarmouth County line, and I always ask the bus driver to do that route and stop at the East Pubnico wharf. My reason behind that is because the marine science class from Dalhousie - I want to leave an impression on them because I know that their minds are fresh and have new ideas and I try to ask them one question. They ask questions about aquaculture. Where I'm going with this is I'm going to tie this into the question about closed containment because I made reference to Acadia Seaplants, which is a closed containment facility.

 

Earlier that tour - about two hours ago - the students from Dalhousie University came from Scotian Halibut in Cape Sable Island and there is one in Woods Harbour, the grow-out site. These are closed containment sites and they depend on clean, fresh water. Where I'm going with this point is that I asked these students - roughly 25, whatever in the class - are they familiar with the landed value that I talked about earlier about the two points between Shelburne and Digby, that this is one of the most active areas of landed value of fish in Canada, in between these two points. These two different projects of closed containment are going on in the midst with the backdrop of East Pubnico wharf and West Pubnico wharf, which has one of the largest groundfishing sectors in North America. You have Irish moss, handrakers taking place in the fisheries. You have a commercial lobster industry going on. I can go on and name you a number of the different species that is actually happening in front of your eyes.

 

The point that I'm trying to stress - within a 60-kilometre radius of that point, the Yarmouth County-Shelburne County line, there are aquaculture grow-out sites in St. Mary's Bay, Digby, and within 60 kilometres there are grow-out sites in Shelburne, our third-largest natural harbour in the world. The question that I ask these students that I hope that they would appreciate, that everyone who is involved in all these activities knows that first of all they have to respect the environment because you've got all these end-users using this water column and you have to understand the fisheries that they have to co-exist - and they are co-existing because simply, the dollar value in the activity that's going on there proves my point of how important this is.

 

The Aquaculture Strategy talks about and is committed to doing a closed containment study. To me, we don't even have to look out of Nova Scotia when it comes to closed containment and it's something that I know is going to be completed in the near future, in a few months. My understanding is that the study of closed containment is going to be done near June of this year. That's something that we're looking forward to.

 

The member opposite talked about where this money is spent. To me, the Aquaculture Strategy is a good opportunity because this is going to create a lot of sustainable jobs in rural Nova Scotia. We're actually going to bring people back to our communities when they go away for their education or travels or whatever, but people are excited about having opportunities to come back to rural Nova Scotia.

 

The point I want to make, Mr. Chairman, is this strategy is a vision about the future. I know a number of my colleagues around this table can reflect, and I have never seen in my time as a minister here, I have never observed in the last 30 years a vision of creating wealth and growth in rural Nova Scotia, in Atlantic Canada, any government, about having a vision about bringing people back and creating economic growth in our communities in rural Nova Scotia.

 

I'll repeat that, in the last 30 years, Mr. Chairman, I have lived through the cod moratorium and I have seen how government policies can tear down and destroy coastal communities. I've lived through the late 1960s and early 1970s, Mr. Chairman, when the groundfish flourished on our coast and many coastal communities across Nova Scotia and I've seen the beehive of activity in these coastal communities and how we have been appreciative of that particular species of different finfish and how the coastal communities benefited from that.

 

I've also seen the introduction of a cod moratorium and I've seen the destruction that that particular policy had on Atlantic Canada. I'm just trying to shape this for you, Mr. Chairman, because since then, since the early 1990s and when the cod moratorium was introduced by our federal government, there has never been a plan or a vision to assist or create economic growth and stability in our coastal communities.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister, I don't want to interrupt your train of thought here but I always give a 10-minute warning when time is running out or about to. We're a little less than 10 minutes so continue, minister, sorry.

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, the point I was trying to make is that this particular Aquaculture Strategy that the member opposite raised a question about, where is this money going to, is something that I think I want to take the time and appreciate. This is money that has been well spent.

 

The point I am trying to make and I want to go back and just clarify that again, is that since 2000 and 1990, Mr. Chairman, the cod moratorium was introduced and the point that I'm trying to make, it crossed coastal communities in Nova Scotia and the Atlantic Provinces. There has never been a path forward to create economic well-being and growth in the jobs in rural Nova Scotia.

 

Our aquaculture lays out an opportunity to do just that. To me, we're talking about creating good jobs, this whole plan about moving the Aquaculture Division to rural Nova Scotia is the right idea. Again, I made reference in my earlier comments to how this minister went to Ottawa and asked the federal government to look at developing new species, Mr. Chairman. I was hoping we'd get that question from the honourable member but, unfortunately, never did.

 

To me there are opportunities to put stability back in these communities. I can back up to the early 1970s, I know how the beehive of activities was in communities right across Nova Scotia. I'm not just looking at my home town, I know the communities like Canso and Louisbourg and all the other - my friend over the way here, in Cape Breton, again there was a beehive of activity about job creation in rural Nova Scotia.

 

To me, since the cod moratorium was introduced in the early 1990s, there has been nothing seriously done to stabilize these jobs, stabilize these communities in Nova Scotia. So to me, the Aquaculture Strategy is about doing just that, about seeing opportunities and making sure that it is done right, Mr. Chairman. We need to assure the public that we're not going to risk the valuable, traditional fisheries. As the minister, with my background - I hope you can appreciate that - that I would be the last one in this province who is going to jeopardize a traditional fishing industry, but I'm going to be the first one to seize on an opportunity when I know that the ecosystem that has been put there in front of us as a fishing community and a marine-based resource industry to know that we have an opportunity. I hope you appreciate my background when I look at the Bay of Fundy and I look at the tidal range from Cape Breton, the Scotian Shelf and the influence the tidal range can have on our particular water column. I know there are opportunities there. I know that the aquaculture can co-exist on our shores along with our traditional fisheries, but it has to be done in a sustainable manner.

 

Again, getting back to the member's question about investing in a strategy, to me this is something that is really important and I take the opportunity any time to defend spending money on a strategy that can have sustainable growth and economic development in rural Nova Scotia.

 

MR. SAMSON: The minister is responsible for licensing of processing facilities in Nova Scotia so I'm sure he'd have the answers to the following set of questions. Could the minister tell us the exact number of pounds of snow crab that are landed in Nova Scotia? How many of those are processed here in Nova Scotia? How much is processed outside Nova Scotia? Would the minister inform us how many Nova Scotians are employed in the processing facilities for snow crab in this province since it is his department that licenses them?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: The member opposite is asking some detailed questions and I want to assure him that our staff are committed to retrieving that information. I hope that with the detail that the member opposite is requesting that he'll give us the appropriate time to make sure that we get that information. I'll commit that I take this question very seriously and we will look forward and our staff will do the work that is required to obtain that information in the appropriate time.

 

MR. SAMSON: I'm wondering if the minister could indicate what date the season will be opening for snow crab fishery off the coast of Cape Breton this year.

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: The member opposite is asking a number of different serious questions and I know that there are openings going on as we speak, but there are seasons and we will get the detailed information for the member opposite who wants that information on the particular species.

 

MR. SAMSON: Could the minister inform us how many processing facilities there are in Nova Scotia that are licensed to process snow crab?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: That question needs to be examined because, first of all, my understanding is there are over 150 - somewhere in that ballpark - of inactive licences. My understanding, through meeting with some of the processors just in the last month, I think there are nine that are active, somewhere in that ballpark. It's a valuable resource - I want to highlight that - the snow crab is a valuable resource and one of the species that we actually brought up when we were in Ottawa, is undeveloped species. There are a number of other species out there.

 

Fishermen have actually raised that question and I'm glad the member opposite has brought that question to the floor about the crab industry because the fishermen that I have have observed know that the other species of crab - for instance stone crab and green crab - are opportunities that are literally off our doorsteps, whether it's off the Scotian Shelf from Cape Breton to Georges Bank. The fishermen know that these additional species are there and they see great opportunities.

 

I asked my colleague if he wanted to talk about underdeveloped species, these other crab species that are off our coast. I know how important the snow crab is to Nova Scotia. To me, here is an opportunity. The fishermen have said we know they are out there, Mr. Belliveau, just go out and let's do it, let's get the exploratory licence.

 

I went to Ottawa before the Senate Committee, Mr. Chairman, and raised this question. Again, always the answer back from DFO was no, can't do it, we don't have the science. Well we said going there that we expected that decision. This government is committed to doing the science for these new, underdeveloped species.

 

To visualize that stone crab, the possibility of creating an industry equivalent to snow crab, is certainly opportunity. I welcome the member opposite for bringing that question up and I certainly look forward to other engagements on that topic and I'll close. Thank you very much.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Unfortunately, that is one full hour for the Liberal caucus. Certainly you will have the opportunity to come back for more questioning.

 

We have 38 minutes left in the four hours for today. At this time we will call on the Progressive Conservative caucus for those 38 minutes.

 

The honourable member for Cape Breton West.

 

MR. ALFIE MACLEOD: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the minister and his staff for the opportunity to ask a few questions today. In 38 minutes I'll barely get my throat cleared but we'll start and we'll see where we can go from here.

 

I'm just curious, following along from my colleague, the member for Richmond, how much is the dollar value of the snow crab fishery to the Province of Nova Scotia? How does it affect our economy?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Certainly the snow crab industry is an important portion of our landed value in Nova Scotia. We do not have the exact dollar value of that but I can assure you that they are one of the top three - snow crab, along with lobster and shrimp is one of our big three in Nova Scotia. To me that is something that is truly important.

 

Again I want to emphasize to the member opposite that he may not have been aware of my opening remarks when I talk about going to Ottawa. I think that the member opposite may want to just be refreshed of what we actually said in Ottawa, Mr. Chairman. We actually talked about other different species. The member opposite raised the question about the value of snow crab. As Nova Scotians, we all know that the crab species, shellfish species are important.

 

I think the member opposite should be aware of what I actually said in Ottawa, Mr. Chairman, so I want to highlight what we actually did in front of the standing committee on some of the issues facing our particular fishing industry. We talked about the overall worth and value of different species, it is close to $1 billion in our export value and certainly it employs thousands of Nova Scotians and Atlantic Canadians. Nova Scotia represents the largest landed value of lobsters, close to 70 per cent of lobster landings in Canada.

 

Mr. Chairman, I guess the question is why is the fishery so important to Nova Scotians? It is important because it matters to the families, literally thousands of them across Nova Scotia, from Canso, Louisbourg. I actually have some of my family stories that date back to Cape Breton in the mid-1950s, early 1960s, swordfishing. So to understand and appreciate what the communities have meant to me and our families is something of importance.

 

Again, back to my trip to Ottawa, I want to talk about in Nova Scotia there are over 3,000 active, inshore lobster licences in which each vessel carries an average crew of three people or more. The reason why I went to Ottawa was to talk about our sustainability and how we needed to address creating some jobs in rural Nova Scotia. I'm going to get back to the question regarding what snow crabs are worth. This actually lays out the framework of why we went there, to create some economic well-being in our communities.

 

What I pointed out in Ottawa was that this means there are about 9,000 people directly employed in the fishing industry, the contacts that make the industry one of the largest, single employers in the Province of Nova Scotia, which needs a clear direction from the federal government to reflect the needs of our fishing industry. Our government has a plan to create good jobs and to grow a strong and more stable economy throughout the province. The commercial fishery has been identified as a key priority in jobsHere. As we move forward, we must make decisions that offer our fishing industry support to ensure its sustainability.

 

Sustainability is a word that is crucial to the future of this industry, so is stability. A sustainable fishery relies on management plans, vessels, training requirements, marketing, traceability, protected areas, DFO modernization initiatives, safety and scientific research and the list goes on. The industry is facing some challenging times and with so much uncertainty it is important that we do not further destabilize the industry.

 

A recent federal announcement has caused great concern about Nova Scotians, due to the potential impact that they have on our communities where the main lifeblood of the economy is the fisheries, communities where the fishery has supported families for generations. These troubling announcements by the federal government include fleet separation, owner-operator policy, EI reform and the idea of a lobster quota system for the inshore lobster industry being floated with no input from the industry.

 

Some of the other concerns the industry had was changes in the lobster trap-tag program and the environmental assessment changes to the federal Fisheries Act. The federal government's decision not to eliminate a fleet separation and owner-operator policy in Atlantic Canada fisheries was good news for Atlantic Canadian fishers. I commended, when I was in Ottawa, the federal government for making that decision. Nova Scotia was the first to call on the federal government to clarify its position on these policies and I want to thank them for listening.

 

Canada is a diverse country with a range of realities regarding employment and earning a living. The lobster fishery employs thousands, along with the crab and shrimp fisheries across Nova Scotia, many of whom are seasonal employees who rely on EI benefits. The federal government needs to understand the realities of living in rural parts of Canada like those near my hometown and the communities throughout Shelburne, Barrington, Queens, Argyle, Yarmouth and Digby Counties and yes, Cheticamp, Pictou, Canso, Louisbourg and the list goes on, Main-a-Dieu and Scaterie. Throughout Nova Scotia, in coastal communities the lobster industry depends on these experienced workers. If these workers cannot rely on EI benefits, our rural communities will lose our experienced workers.

This is the wrong time for changes to EI benefits when the industry is having such an economic struggle and is at its most vulnerable. The lobster, crab, and shrimp industries

and many other species are the most dangerous to work in. Having experienced workers is key to creating a safer work environment. I was on the wharf in southwest Nova Scotia in November before the start of our lobster season, as I am every year, to witness the boats preparing for their departure. Traps were piled high with joining lines and decks were covered with buoys, floats and heavy anchors. You really need to know what you are doing and having inexperienced people on the vessel puts everyone in danger. That is why it is important that we have our experienced crew members in our fishing communities. Without them our fishing industries such as snow crab and shrimp would be unsafe, and if it's unsafe it is not sustainable.

 

Our government has made its concerns known to the federal government on numerous occasions regarding changes to the EI benefits and the impact on those who rely on the fishing industry, such as the snow crab industry, to earn a living. Impacts on their livelihoods deserve in-depth consideration prior to implementation.

 

As we all know, good politics don't always make for good policies. The wrong decision - even though it may be a popular one, in some parts of Canada it's still a wrong decision. I would say the same about the recent comments about the possibility of lobster quotas for the inshore lobster fleet. Those comments cause great concerns at times of uncertainty for lobster prices. Politicians making these kinds of comments show a profound lack of understanding. It's a bit like saying a recession presents a good buying opportunity. Any changes to the management of the lobster industry need to be industry-led.

 

I have spoken to many fish harvesters and community leaders who are concerned about the recent federal comments as quota systems in the inshore lobster fisheries could jeopardize the independence of the fisheries and further erode small business and reduce independent harvesters. We must make decisions that offer lobsters and the snow crab industry and shrimp industry support to ensure its sustainability.

 

Certainly the lobster industry is facing another disruption with DFO's decision to download its lobster trap-tags programs onto private sector interests and fisheries management groups. This will affect fishing activities occurring after March 31, 2013. For lobster fishing areas 25 through 32, the lobster tag program changes will come during the Spring season and will negatively impact them due to the insufficient time to organize. Across Nova Scotia, industry has appealed to DFO to reconsider - or at least delay - the process, allowing the proper time to organize the best approach.

 

While changes in evolution may be required, I strongly urge a measured and considered approach involving input from our industry regarding potential implications to our fisheries and DFO must delay these proposed changes, allow our fish harvesters to complete their seasons and then consult our industries. These changes cannot simply be forced upon fish harvesters. Time needs to be taken before the changes are fixing a problem and not simply changing for change's sake.

 

I realize that change in evolution is required, but I strongly urge a measured and considered approach regarding potential implication to our fisheries. It is important to delay these proposed changes, especially during midseason. My department is working in numerous ways to assist and support the lobster harvester industry throughout this valued food chain, along with our snow crab industry, shrimp industry and the other groundfish industries as we speak.

 

Mr. Chairman, we have supported science and stewardship initiatives through the Fishermen and Scientist Research Society and the sustainable measures program. I was trying to get to the part - I know the member opposite was being very patient but I wanted to talk about, for example, Atlantic snow crab will continue to play a major role in our fisheries in the eastern areas of our province. There is an opportunity for development of new species. This is where I was trying to get to about my opportunity to speak before the Senate Committee in Ottawa, that includes stone crab, green crab, whelks, Irish moss, hagfish and quahogs. It is an opportunity to help those in the lobster industry to diversify and supplement their income, thereby making it more sustainable.

 

Several Nova Scotia fish harvesters have applied to DFO to fish stone crab and other underdeveloped species and have been denied due to the lack of science or information or old data. Well, Mr. Chairman, let's get some. We want action to develop exploratory species such as stone crab and I think they could complement our friends in the snow crab industry. The snow crab and other underdeveloped species, our government, through you to the member opposite, is willing to partner with DFO to help support the scientific research necessary to develop two exploratory species and pay our share. Those are just some of the highlights that we introduced in our travels to Ottawa before the Standing Committee on Fisheries.

 

I know the member opposite talked about the value of snow crab, which I know is an integral part of the industry in his home riding and it is something that is important to me. We'll get the actual dollar value to the member in an appropriate time but I want to assure the member that I really appreciate the value of that industry. I know how it is important to many coastal communities and I look forward to further questioning from the honourable member. Thank you.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Holy smokes, I don't know where to start but I will start by saying that I appreciate the minister's efforts to try and associate himself with Cape Breton Island because it is the number one island in North America. You and I have talked before about the times that you have come there for swordfishing.

 

I would hope, as we continue on through this segment of our discussions, that every time you don't know the answer to a question you're not going to turn back and read a matter of public record that is already on record as to what you've already said in Ottawa. I would be more interested in having a dialogue that's talking about what we're doing here in Nova Scotia. As much as I appreciate the fact that you went to Ottawa, it is a matter of public record and that's about the third time you went down that road so I think we don't need to go there anymore.

 

However, I am interested now - you know that snow crab is one of the top three, you made that very clear about half an hour ago. I'm wondering, if you can't tell us what snow crab is worth to the economy in Nova Scotia, can you tell me what lobster is worth to the economy of Nova Scotia?

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Well thank you very much. What I can tell you is, again, lobster and snow crab, the member opposite is asking some detailed questions about the actual dollar value. We'll get right down to the penny of that value but I can tell you the combination of the big three - the snow crab, the shrimp and lobster is roughly just under $1 billion to our exports. To me that is to appreciate that.

 

Again, Mr. Chairman, I understand the member opposite's question but I also hope the member opposite can appreciate the currency exchange and how that number can fluctuate just simply on the strength of the American dollar. Those big three have contributed to a good percentage of our landed value. There are other values out there and not to take away or diminish the halibut fishery, they all are different species that contribute to this roughly just under $1 billion of exports. It's not to diminish our ground fisheries. We have codfish and haddock, all those different species and I think that - not to belittle or take away from the swordfishing industry, tuna fisheries, and you have Irish moss, all those different species of plants out there, rockweed and the list goes on. To me, they're all just as important. I know the importance of Irish moss.

I can tell a story to the member opposite - my grandparents, my father travelled to Cape Breton. I can recite those stories. I know the value of all the species that are harvested in Nova Scotia and I want the members opposite - I can tell you that I literally built my first home with a moss rake that I can literally hold in the palm of my hand. The point I'm trying to make is that the member asked the value of a different species, and our staff will get right to the penny of what that is worth.

 

The point I'm trying to make to the member opposite is to appreciate - and as the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture I appreciate all those different species out there and my talk tonight, I'm not going to be able to talk about glass eels and how that's one of the highlights of the fisheries in the last three or four years, but Irish moss is one of those ones that makes a contribution to a number of fish harvesters. There may be less than 100 in southwest Nova Scotia, but the point I'm saying is that the Irish moss is as important as snow crab is to the Cape Breton area and the other eastern portions of Nova Scotia. As somebody with my background, I know that each species makes a contribution to any community across Nova Scotia, whether you're dipping kayaks in the Gaspereau River, in the Valley or you're actually harvesting glass eels along the many river systems in Nova Scotia, they're all making their contribution to rural communities and stabilizing those communities.

 

As a minister, I can sit up here before a microphone and the member opposite says to talk about - I'd refer to my documents that I probably tabled, but I can speak from the heart for hours on these species that are contributing to our community. I've seen people go out and harvest bloodworms. Many people may not be familiar with that species. I know that the chairman is familiar with that, but there are periwinkles - the list goes on of all these different values that add to the overall export value of our fishing industry as a whole.

 

One of your questions was around lobster value, and that can fluctuate, again as you appreciate, with the U.S. dollar. Right now our lobster export is somewhere around $400 million. We're one of the largest producers of lobster in Canada, but that number can vary from year to year depending on seasonal landings and as a province we have been very successful. I can tell you that as a fisherman, my background, I watched those landings increase three-fold since the early 1980s and it's very encouraging to know that we have a very stable biomass that's out there.

 

Before I finish up, I know that I've left a good number of species out, but the point I'm trying to make is whether it's periwinkles or glass eels or Irish moss or stone crabs or snow crabs or shrimp, these species are all an integral part of what rural communities do and whether you're going out and digging for soft-shell clams, I appreciate them. I understand what they contribute to our communities. I thank the member for his question.

 

MR. MACLEOD: I appreciate the minister's background and I do know that he has a love and passion for the industry that he's speaking about. I think there is not a member in the House of Assembly who doesn't understand that there's not three species or five species or 20 species and the way of life in rural Nova Scotia has always been to be able to find that little niche so that you can actually make a difference and support your families.

 

I guess the reason I was going down the road that I was going down, and maybe it's my fault, maybe you took the question too literally but it is what the advantage is of knowing what percentage of that $1 billion is coming from these different industries to make people understand how important they are to our economy as a province in Nova Scotia. I don't believe that a lot of people have a real, significant understanding of what fisheries contribute to our province and to our economy and how it does create jobs.

 

Yes, you mentioned earlier about the challenges with licensing and with EI and those things and those are very prevalent in the area that I represent, the same as they are in the area that you represent. What I'm trying to establish is that indeed, we need to be able to show people the impact that these industries have in our rural areas, no different than what a ship contract has here in Halifax or all the military bases that are here or the universities. They have an impact on the economy here.

 

Our economy in rural Nova Scotia, which you would know best as well, is very fragile and we need to educate people to understand. That's why I was going down that road and, like I say, I really don't need to know if it was $X million and 32 cents, but it contributes, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you said the top three contribute around $1 billion to the economy of Nova Scotia, so there must be a percentage there. Lobster, you just mentioned, was about $400 million, so that's about 40 per cent, so snow crab is in there and then shrimp is in there.

 

Just to give people an understanding and a real appreciation, and again you mentioned something that I think is very important and people need to understand, that's the very fact of how dangerous an industry this is. We've seen that earlier in the year and it's something that hopefully we won't see on a very regular basis because it's devastating to the families and to the communities because we all come from very close-knit communities.

 

I want to get people to understand that because when they look at fisheries, if you look at fisheries and the overall budget of the Province of Nova Scotia, or forestry or agriculture, all of those are major contributors to our economy, yet when you look at their budgets, your budget versus the budgets of some of the other departments, it's quite small. So people sometimes look at the budget and say, well a small budget, maybe it doesn't have that much impact on our province. I think we need to change that and that's the reason - whether it's the right reason or the wrong reason or if you agree with the reason - but that's the reason I want people to understand why I'm asking these questions.

 

The movement of the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture out of Halifax to Shelburne and to Cornwallis has created some concerns within the industry itself, with fishermen, and again I'll go from the area that I understand best. Right now it's a four-hour drive from Cape Breton to Halifax but it's a six-hour drive to go that much further if you're going to a meeting in Shelburne and/or in Cornwallis.

 

The other thing that I've heard concerns about is that a number of people who had a lot of expertise decided not to move to those areas because in this stage of their life they didn't want to be uprooted. I want to ask you, Mr. Minister, the rationale behind the moves. I understand that we need to diversify government out of Halifax, I'd be the first one to tell you that, but I just want to understand why, first, those two locations were picked; secondly, why two locations and thirdly, the staff who remained I am sure are very competent, there's no question about that in my mind, but the amount of expertise that was lost, how do we compensate for that?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before responding, minister, there is a little less than 10 minutes remaining in the full four hours for today.

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate your wisdom to keep us on time and hopefully we'll get a two-minute heads-up for my closing remarks and the resolution.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Actually, there will be no reading of the resolution today. I think you'll be going longer than that. If not, I know there are questions. I'm sure that the Liberal caucus will be back in and I'm sure Mr. MacLeod has time left as well - 22 minutes he'll begin with tomorrow, I would expect. Mr. MacLeod, do you want to respond to that?

 

MR. MACLEOD: I certainly will be looking forward to further conversation, probably on Thursday, I guess.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, yes, tomorrow is Opposition day. I can never forget that. It will be Thursday for sure.

 

MR. MACLEOD: I'm enjoying our time together so I think I'll come back for more.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister, you have about seven and a half minutes remaining for today, but you won't have to do any closing or you won't have to do your estimate.

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: I apologize, Mr. Chairman. Usually when I'm in this position I keep note of the times and I apologize. That's why I asked for your guidance.

Anyway, the question from the honourable member opposite regarding the move - not to echo my earlier comments to the questions from your colleague from the other Party. Actually, it was a similar question about how you can justify moving from the city to rural Nova Scotia. I laid out about actually between Shelburne and Digby being the centre or a very active community where the dollar value justifies that this is actually in the heart of a fishing community. I think I laid that framework out. I'm very familiar with the rest of the province and I can appreciate that any of these communities would probably be a nice home - whether it's Louisburg or Canso or those areas for rural jobs.

 

I really believe in the principle about moving jobs, that when you have a marine-based industry, and I went through with great detail the landed values of these species in Canso and Louisburg and all the other neighbouring communities and across Nova Scotia. They're not down at the wharf here where the ferry goes. You don't see too many herring seiners offload there and all the other species that we talked about in your earlier questions.

 

I feel very confident that we made the right decisions in knowing the testimonies. The member opposite may not observe the comments I said earlier, but the testimonies that we have from business leaders, from councillors, from families saying that their children have been educated - and this is an opportunity for them to move back into rural Nova Scotia and hopefully have a family and settle down; and the jobs and the tax base that this is going to create. I'm confident that this is the right thing to do.

 

The member opposite talked about - I know the distance in Nova Scotia from one end of the province. I know roughly it's a seven-hour drive and I can appreciate that. Many times, the member raised a question about people driving great distances to attend meetings and I know this is something that all the people - whether it's government organizations, politicians or industries - that they try to accommodate. When they schedule meetings - whether it is government meetings or industry driven - they take into account the distance that people have to drive. I have attended meetings in Truro, Digby and Louisburg, Cape Breton.

 

The point I'm trying to say is that industry stakeholders understand that in Nova Scotia sometimes you have to travel great distances but there's always an opportunity to create and have meetings that can accommodate people in Truro, being the hub of Nova Scotia, this is always taken into consideration.

 

The point of trying to relocate these jobs, good-paying jobs, when the industry is marine-based, is a great move. I have never been criticized about moving these jobs to rural Nova Scotia. I want to assure you that we have a structure in place, whether you're in Main-a-Dieu or you're in Louisbourg or Yarmouth, we have regional reps across our beautiful province where the issue of the day can be brought forward. It can be brought forward in a manner that everyone's concerns are addressed.

 

It just so happens, Mr. Chairman, that we live with technological advancement where 50 years ago this would have been more of an issue of having access to coastal communities. Literally, I know that some of the fishers can actually do their computer work on their vessel, can actually do some of the stuff that the federal government is talking about, the computer access to conditions of licences and stuff is a technological advancement. Not to go down that road but I'm saying that we live in a different era than we did even 20 years ago.

To me, the opportunity to present and create good jobs in rural Nova Scotia is something that I'm very supportive of. I've had people come up to me and say that I'm proud that you actually stood by your word and you did this. I take the member opposite's comment to heart and I thank you for the question.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: A couple of minutes remaining for the member for Cape Breton West.

 

MR. MACLEOD: There's nothing more important than having jobs in rural Nova Scotia. We may have some differences of opinion on some matters but I think we're both very much in that court.

 

I guess if the wisdom was to have two different locations, then the obvious question to me is if you're going to move them, why would you move them both in the same direction? Why wouldn't you put one at the other end of the province where, according to your own words, there's a fair amount of the Atlantic catch there, and then one at the other end, in that way you would be servicing both areas with a central core.

 

As you said so rightly, there's not much that comes off the ferries that are coming across the harbour so it doesn't really need to be in Halifax, but when we talk about the amount of dollars that are landed and the amount of the economy that's done, to put two offices in the same direction, almost identical distances from Halifax, probably less than an hour's drive if you go cross-country from each other, it would make sense to me that I would place one of those in an area where there's a substantial amount of catch and where it's a major part of the industry.

 

Yes, I guess in this case it's Cape Breton because if you look, it is an island so we all know there's a substantial amount of fishing that goes around there and there is around Antigonish areas, as well as Canso and all through those areas which you are much more familiar with than I am because I'm sure you've fished out of every nook and cranny that was there, at one point or another.

 

To me, moving them out of Halifax makes sense; creating jobs in rural Nova Scotia makes sense; putting two offices almost the same distance from Halifax in two communities that are not that far apart from each other and leaving the other end of the province having to do that commute, I appreciate what you're saying about the technology and that but there's still some people out there like me that technology doesn't really serve the purpose, they like to sit and talk to an individual, one-on-one, face-to-face.

 

I'd be interested in hearing your comments on the rationale behind moving two separate offices. If it was one office, I could buy into that but when you went to two different locations, I have a hard time understanding why it couldn't be located in the two parts of the province, which generate the economy that you take so much pride in talking about, and we should.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: We're going to have to wait until Thursday for a response to that question. That concludes our four full hours today on the closing of the Department of Community Services and the beginning of the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture. We will resume on Thursday when the member for Cape Breton West will have 22 minutes before going to the Liberal caucus. Thank you very much for your day.

 

[The subcommittee adjourned at 6:35 p.m.]