HALIFAX, THURSDAY, APRIL 19, 2012

 

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY

 

2:27 P.M.

 

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Clarrie MacKinnon

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: I call the Subcommittee on Supply to order. We're awaiting the arrival of a couple more members but I think we can get started with the opening statement of the Minister of Natural Resources.

 

Resolution No. 15 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $95,685,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Natural Resources, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Natural Resources.

 

HON. CHARLIE PARKER: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to talk to the Department of Natural Resources in our budget estimates. I'd like to welcome the members here this afternoon; I'm sure we're going to have some interesting discussions as the afternoon rolls along.

 

First, Mr. Chairman, I want to introduce some of the staff here with me this afternoon. On my right is Deputy Minister Duff Montgomerie and on my left is Weldon Myers, the director of Financial Services. I should mention that behind me are some other members of our staff: Julie Towers is the executive director of Renewable Resources; Gretchen Pohlkamp, executive director of Land Services; Don James, executive director of Mineral Resources; and Allan Eddy is involved with Regional Services. So I appreciate those folks - I believe Patricia MacNeil is also going to be coming, our executive director of Policy, Planning and Support Services. Over to my right is my executive assistant, Danielle Sampson, and I'd be remiss if I didn't also mention part of my team, my backup, my wife, Marilyn, is here also. So I've got a good team here with me this afternoon and we're going to try our best to answer your questions as we go along.

 

 

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I'm pleased to have this opportunity to speak about the department and some of the highlights of the past year. As many of you know I've been the minister now for a little over a year, and during that time I've become acquainted with the department and have been impressed with the knowledge, dedication, and know-how of its employees. I know that many members of the House of Assembly, especially those of us that represent rural ridings in various areas of our province, recognize the important role that the Department of Natural Resources staff plays in each of our communities.

 

This past 12-month period has had its share of significant accomplishments, including the introduction of our new Natural Resources Strategy last August; I believe it was August 16^th that we rolled that out in the community of Port Hawkesbury. This, as you know, is the culmination of several years of hard work by many members of the public, stakeholders, and department staff.

 

Also, this past year has had its share of significant challenges, especially for two of Nova Scotia's large pulp and paper mills. Our government has responded with policies and programs to support the mills, the workers, and also woodlot owners. We will continue to work to establish a sustainable balance in the forest sector, a balance between the sector's economic and environmental health, as well as a social balance which considers the interests of the workers and their families who rely on this very important renewable traditional industry.

 

The department's work over the next 12 months will make a direct contribution to government's priorities. We will continue to deliver a wide range of programs and services needed to implement the innovative new approach to natural resources management that's called for in the strategy. We certainly look forward to working with our stakeholders and partners to collectively manage our natural assets for a more prosperous future.

 

The department has many responsibilities relative to the management of Nova Scotia's biodiversity in forests, geological resources, parks, as well as the administration of the province's Crown land. Biodiversity and wildlife-related responsibilities include promoting and implementing policies and programs to support the conservation and sustainable use of wildlife populations, habitats, and ecosystems here in Nova Scotia.

 

DNR has many responsibilities related to our forests on both Crown and private lands. These include some of the following: forest management planning and research, developing and implementing strategies that support and contribute to sustainable forests, maintaining our provincial forest inventory, producing data on the province's forest resources, monitoring primary forest production, coordinating extension programs and support for forest-sector development, and delivering programs to protect our forests from fires, pests, and diseases. Our executive director under our Forest Protection program is Walter Fanning, and he's doing great work there.

 

Our geological resources-related responsibilities include implementing policies and programs that help to ensure the best use of the province's mineral, groundwater, and geoheritage resources; collecting and managing geoscientific information and monitoring compliance with regulatory requirements; administering the mineral rights tenure system and mineral royalties; and promoting and understanding the risk that geological hazards pose to Nova Scotians.

 

Our park-related responsibilities include planning, designing, developing, and operating a system of more than 120 camping and day-use parks, natural area parks, and also park reserves, in addition to supporting facilities on Crown lands, various trails, and other outdoor recreational opportunities.

 

The department is responsible for approximately 1,200 kilometres of abandoned rail corridor and for beaches designated under the Beaches Act. As well, stewardship and outreach activities are undertaken to provide accurate natural resources-related information to Nova Scotians, to help them make informed decisions and choices with respect to the conservation and use of our natural resources. More than one-quarter of the province's land base is administered and controlled as provincial Crown land and protected areas. In addition to managing this land, the department administers inland submerged land and also submerged land along the province's coastline.

 

The Crown land administration responsibilities include enforcement of laws and policies; management and development of resources on our Crown land; maintenance of Crown boundaries; protection and conservation of Crown land through designations and agreements; administering Crown land licences for timber and other resources; investing in silviculture on Crown land in order to work towards forest sustainability; maintaining a network of access roads on our Crown lands; the acquisition, leasing, and disposal of interest in Crown lands - certainly I know rural members have had a keen interest in that; there are always constituents who want to buy, sell, or trade Crown land with the province. We're also responsible for the registration of Crown land titles; the clarification of interest in unacknowledged, ungranted lands; and I guess finally, the control and management of Crown land records is part of our mandate.

 

Trail and off-highway vehicle-related responsibilities include overseeing Crown land trails; creating trail development policy; establishing trail networks; and managing trail issues. Our off-highway vehicle-related responsibilities include establishing and monitoring safety and training standards and requirements; and monitoring and addressing issues and conflicts as they arise.

 

DNR's enforcement-related responsibilities include achieving compliance with all acts administered by the department and promoting a better understanding of resource and Crown land protection issues and concerns. Activities include directing the development, coordination, implementation, and delivery of departmental resources, law enforcement, and their compliance program. I'm confident that some members may have questions on those activities as we go along.

 

I want to take a few minutes to talk about our Natural Resources Strategy. The strategy is doing things differently to spur opportunities that support the economy, social well-being, and natural-resource stewardship and sustainability. The implementation of the strategy is a role that we're taking very seriously. As you know, the strategy is called The Path We Share. This new strategy is the guide to the management of natural resources in our province for the next decade or more. It will improve resource management and sustainable practices in the province while creating good jobs.

 

I believe the strategy is a balanced approach to natural resources management, inspired by a vision of a sustainable and prosperous future. As you know, honourable members, there were more than 2,000 Nova Scotians that provided input into the strategy, as well as more than 700 written submissions. We've already begun implementing the strategy.

 

The companion document, From Strategy to Action - it was passed out at the time of the strategy release - lays out how the strategy is to be implemented over a 24-month period. It includes actions to improve legislation, including laws that help manage biodiversity; forest regulations; and the Mineral Resources Act. It also includes how we're going to provide training for the forestry sector and how we'll finalize a code of forest practice, which is really a set of principles, guidelines, and technical recommendations for the sustainable management of Nova Scotia's forests. It will also have how we review and reallocate resources so more species at risk can be recovered; conduct research into how to best reclaim land affected by mining operations; includes publishing a Mi'kmaq interpretive plan for provincial parks to increase awareness and understanding of the Mi'kmaq heritage and culture; and also plans on how to carry out a detailed visitors survey to collect information on our parks system.

 

The strategy progress to date, a number of things - DNR has aligned resources to deliver the 32 actions outlined in the Natural Resources Strategy action plan, and progress is being made on a number of fronts. Here are some examples of that. In the forestry sector, options are being evaluated to establish a system to improve the way that we track forest harvest across Nova Scotia. I've had an opportunity to be out on the ground with contractors and forest workers, and I know there's some new technology that's available there in that field and that different options are available to us.

 

A new harvest tracking system will enable government to monitor and report on the progress towards the target to reduce clear-cutting to no more than 50 per cent of our harvest over the five-year period after the implementation which will take us into 2016. A technical definition of clear-cutting is essential to monitor progress, to achieve the target to reduce clear-cutting to no more than 50 per cent, and I'm sure there may be some questions on this as we go along. We have consulted widely on this issue and a new definition is very near completion. This definition has been refined on the ground, including in eastern Nova Scotia where more than 100 members of forestry contracting crews, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, have taken part in specialized training made available through the province's seven-point woodlands plan.

Mr. Chairman, rules are being developed to implement the whole-tree harvest prohibition, and the code of forest practice - that's really the technical rule book for the new forestry practices - will be updated to include whole-tree harvesting requirements later this Spring. Forestry regulations will be amended to make biomass users subject to the same rules that apply to all others in the forest sector and we plan to consult on these amendments this Spring.

 

Private woodlot owners have a significant role in the future of the forest industry in our province. The province has invested close to $1 million to support sustainable forest management plans, woodlot certification, training, and other private woodlot initiatives. The province has also invested $4.1 million in private-sector woodlot silviculture this year, and this funding is an investment in the future of our forests and certainly helps us to support sustainable forestry practices.

 

In September 2011, the Premier announced the province's seven-point plan to employ hundreds of woodworkers, to provide specialized workshops, and to support the Port Hawkesbury mill to be ready for quick resale. The plan came with an investment of $15 million. We brought forward a quick response to balance employment with market forces, to balance jobs and the economy with a sustainable forestry for the future. Our efforts continue to be driven by what makes sense for families and for communities across the province and for the economy here in Nova Scotia. That investment by the province ensured employment for more than 400 Nova Scotians who were working in harvesting, silviculture, trucking, and roadwork, primarily in the eastern part of the mainland and in Cape Breton.

 

So we found options, Mr. Chairman, and we worked those opportunities to their utmost, and that work continues today. Woodlot owners, industry, and government - we all work together and we all play a part. We all need a future in forestry that is economically and environmentally sustainable.

 

I want to take a minute to speak about biodiversity. Preliminary work is underway on changes to the Wildlife Act to incorporate biodiversity, and the department is working closely with Mi'kmaq representatives, the Office of Aboriginal Affairs, the Nova Scotia Department of Environment, and our federal partners to develop an integrated moose management plan for Cape Breton. This plan recognizes that the moose in Cape Breton and the ecosystem that sustains the population there is a shared resource and it must be managed sustainably.

 

Also, Mr. Chairman, preliminary work is underway to prepare a state of the biodiversity report and if you recall from our plan, that's due in 2013. Early steps have been taken to put more efforts into species-at-risk recovery, and in 2012-13 conservation officers will be spending more time on species-at-risk projects. Also in conjunction with the Department of Agriculture and the Federation of Agriculture, discussions are underway to examine methods for farmers to prevent and to deal with conflicts between agriculture and wildlife. One of the big conflicts there is with the white-tailed deer. This really complements DNR's ongoing work to assist farmers and protecting and enhancing the biodiversity on the agriculture landscape.

 

The department is working on a number of initiatives to increase awareness of the importance of the province's geological resources. For example, we partnered with industry to distribute rock and mineral educational kits to 300 Grade 4 classrooms across Nova Scotia and, I guess, as a former teacher at the junior high and elementary level, I know that those types of kits are invaluable to good lesson plans and for showing hands-on material that the students can learn from.

 

Also, just yesterday a wonderful new book on the Joggins Fossil Cliffs, UNESCO World Heritage Site was unveiled and it has been published by the province, and all members received a copy of that. It's called Coal Age Galápagos: The Story of the Joggins Fossil Cliffs, and we had the privilege of working with the author, Dr. John Calder, who presented a copy of that book to the Premier. As I said, every member of the House received a copy; I noticed there was a lot of interest and a lot of members were looking at it and that's great.

 

A travelling exhibit and on-line virtual display is under development, describing the importance of gold to society and the importance of gold exploration and mining here in our province. This display will also include information on modern gold mining methods. The department is also working with researchers to investigate best practices for the revegetation of surface coal mines in Cape Breton. A report of those findings will be released later this Spring.

 

Maps and reports have been released to identify the location of acidic rock formations and potential new sources of groundwater. This information will help improve land-use decisions and planning for infrastructure construction. The department is also investigating risk associated with coastal flooding and erosion. Assessments have been conducted in provincial parks, as well, in a number of communities across our province.

 

I want to tell you just a little bit about our parks plan. The department is leading an evaluation of the current provincial parks system with the aim to design a sustainable parks system for the future. A public engagement process will be launched in 2012 to involve Nova Scotians in setting priorities for this new sustainable park system. We'll also collaborate with Nova Scotia Department of the Environment to develop a systems plan that encompasses provincial parks and wilderness areas that are both protected. Public consultation is certainly a key part of developing that plan.

 

I should also mention that the department released Story Circles: A Mi'kmaq Programming Plan in the Fall of 2011. This plan shows how Nova Scotia's provincial parks could be used to increase awareness and understanding of Mi'kmaq heritage and culture. An implementation plan is being developed in partnership with Mi'kmaq representatives.

 

Another important component in the Department of Natural Resources is the work that we do on lands, and a background study is presently underway on the integrated resource management process in Nova Scotia and in other jurisdictions. This study will help inform next steps as we consider options to redesign integrated resource management in our province. The Land Asset Management Pilot Project is underway at this time also to investigate ways to improve decisions made about use of our Crown lands. This project is currently focusing on wind energy and agriculture.

 

Work has also begun on the design of a mineral and petroleum rights registry system. This new system will provide global access to on-line, map-based rights, acquisition, and maintenance, and will enable on-line payment transactions. I know this will be very much welcomed by the mining community and prospectors, and we've already heard a number of positive comments that they will be able to go on-line and access what's available in the mineral rights registry system, so it's going to be a real bonus and help to us.

 

Also, we will continue to work with Aboriginal Affairs and the Nova Scotia Department of Environment on the acquisition of land, and with municipalities across the province, as well, on land trades that enhance recreation and economic development opportunities in the region.

 

The mining industry certainly has been an important part of Nova Scotia's history and it continues to be an economic pillar in the province, especially in rural Nova Scotia. The economic crisis a few years ago adversely affected the global mining industry, including right here in our own backyard, but I am confident that this sector will recover and global demand for commodities continues to grow, especially in the emerging economies. Today in our province there are several advanced projects that have the potential to grow in the mineral sector in Nova Scotia.

 

So just some of those projects, Mr. Chairman, I'm going to mention, these would include Selwyn Resources. They received their environmental assessment approval for a mine expansion and are working towards the reactivation of the Scotia Mine lead and zinc mine near Gays River. This represents a return to base metal mining in our province. I'll mention the Donkin coal project in Cape Breton. This project certainly has a huge potential to double the value of mineral production in the province and certainly provide jobs in an area of the province with a high level of unemployment, and I'm sure we'll be engaged a little bit more on the Donkin project with some of the members in a few moments.

 

There are also a number of other encouraging exploration projects in the province around gold, rare earth elements, base metals, and industrial minerals that have the potential to diversify and help grow our mineral industry. There's also a continued interest in Nova Scotia's potential for the development of coastal deepwater aggregate quarries for export markets. I know in Guysborough County there's certainly one of those under development at the present time. I'm also confident that the gypsum exports market will rebound as U.S. housing starts come back to more normal levels, so there's real potential there again in that industry.

 

Certainly Nova Scotia has abundant opportunity and a competitive advantage for our mineral industry over many other jurisdictions. We do have in this province a very diverse geology. We're strategically located, as we are more or less sticking out into the Atlantic Ocean, handy to the Eastern Seaboard of North America, and we have deepwater, ice-free ports. We also have well-established infrastructure, including our railway. We have a good road system and international air service. We have accessible energy sources and I believe an educated, skilled workforce.

 

We also have within our government an effective one-window regulatory process that provides clarity and timely service to mining companies doing business here in Nova Scotia. We also have expertise. Staff at the Mineral Resources Branch of our department continue to provide an important service to the mineral industry and numerous other clients. I just happened to be in our library this morning at the Department of Natural Resources and I saw a couple prospectors there gathering information. So there's helpful staff there to always provide advice or help as they need it, and I know that the work of our staff is certainly highly respected.

 

I want to move on to land purchases. Over the past year the Department of Natural Resources has successfully negotiated the purchase of 35,000 total acres of land. Mr. Chairman, that's a significant accomplishment that will help Nova Scotia meet its goal to protect 12 per cent of its land mass. Now, the largest purchase of the province was 25,000 acres from Bowater Mersey, which on top of providing more recreational opportunities, certainly that particular transaction helped to save thousands of jobs along the South Shore and in southwestern Nova Scotia. But the land that's included in that purchase is productive forests. It's old-growth timber stands, ocean and lake frontage, wetlands, and land that's of significant cultural and heritage importance to the Mi'kmaq. The purchase of these lands enriches our environment, it provides us with more land to enjoy, and it helps keep a major employer on the South Shore.

 

The province will work to increase public access to trails as part of that agreement with Bowater, I guess also known as Resolute Forest Products. That public access is an important component of that land transaction. There were a number of camp leases and hunting camps, and so on, that individuals wanted to make sure they had access to their lease sites. This will ensure that more Nova Scotians have a chance to experience the area's natural beauty. Most of that land is located in Annapolis, Hants, Lunenburg, Queens, and Shelburne Counties, was identified by the Colin Stewart Forest Forum as having high conservation values, and will be included in the protected land process. The purchase is part of the province's plan to protect jobs at Bowater Mersey Paper Company, and the total purchase price of that land was $23.7 million - I believe that was around $950 an acre.

 

Chris Miller, the national conservation biologist with the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society said that these land purchases are a strategic investment in Nova Scotia's future. We believe that the properties are of high conservation value and support old-growth forests, species-at-risk habitat, frontage on significant waterways, and large, intact forest.

 

Another notable purchase that our department made this year was the narrow strip of land that was the site of the historic ship-railway project in Cumberland County. Our government bought this unique piece of land to preserve its historical, recreational, and natural values. This land is the site of an 1880's plan to transport ships across land - I think it was a distance of about 17 miles - and they would use a railway, I guess, from the Northumberland Strait right through to the Bay of Fundy.

 

The innovative engineering project was developed by Henry Ketchum, to lift a wooden vessel from the water, place it on a rail car for transport, and then return it to the water at the other end of the rail line using a special hoist-and-lock system. It was a dream of his in 1880. Unfortunately, it didn't quite come to reality but it is of historical and cultural significance, I think, to our province.

 

The property consists of 350 acres, 27 kilometres long and runs across the Isthmus of Chignecto, between Fort Lawrence and Tidnish, and includes a popular hiking trail. The purchase price was $357,000 and that was well below the appraised market value.

 

As well, Mr. Chairman, the province continues to work with HRM to address access and protection of key lands in the area of the Blue Mountain-Birch Cove wilderness area, which was designated as a protected area in 2009.

 

I'll take just a moment, Mr. Chairman, to speak about parks again. Nova Scotians and out-of-province visitors continue to take advantage of our provincial parks for their attractions and activities. Our research has reaffirmed that Nova Scotians are using the parks more than ever, to visit and explore the scenic sites for the nature-based experiences that they provide. Nova Scotians love their parks and they are well-used.

 

Our reservation system continues to exceed expectations. The computerized system allows us to note that there were more than 54,000 overnight stays at provincial campsites during the 2011 season, which is up a little bit from 2010. The number of reservations continues to climb upwards, with an increase of 5 per cent in 2011, as compared to 2010, and with more than 16,000 tourists taking advantage of the service last year. That trend is continuing into this new fiscal year. In fact, on the opening day of the reservation system, which was April 2^nd this year, we saw a 22 per cent increase in the number of reservations for that 24-hour period as compared to last year.

 

One of the final things I want to talk about, Mr. Chairman, is our Hunter Education Program. New this year is an on-line hunting education course. Nova Scotians who want to take up hunting can now go on-line to take the required course. The interactive course provides improved training and greater convenience, and is easier to follow. We're helping new hunters by modernizing the way that safe hunting practices are taught. The on-line course delivers a better education product in a more accessible way.

 

Previous to this, new hunters were required to study a course manual posted on-line and then had to travel to a DNR regional office to write those tests in person, or take the course and the test in a classroom setting. The process is made simpler by the Web-based interactive course and test that are completed and submitted on-line. Now a new hunter taking the on-line course must appear in person at a government office only when he has to write his final exam. The on-line course is for Nova Scotians aged 14 and up, it has interactive exercises with animated graphics, audio and program memory that tracks student progress, and allows for stops and starts so students can study at their own speed. So it's sort of a course you can take on your own time as your schedule allows.

 

Classroom courses will be required for 12- and 13-year-old students and will continue to be an option for hunters who prefer to take that. We recognize there are some folks that maybe don't have a computer or don't have the interest in on-line, and if they want to take the classroom course they're certainly welcome to do that.

 

Hunters can now also pay for and obtain their Nova Scotia Wildlife Resources Card on-line or through phone options. So the card certifies that the hunter has successfully completed the hunter education course and then allows them to apply for a hunting licence. The hunter must also have a federally regulated licence to acquire and use a firearm.

 

In conclusion, I must say I'm very proud of our department's accomplishments this year. Certainly the year ahead will be an exciting one offering new challenges as we begin to implement our new strategy. I believe that we're well prepared for those challenges. DNR is a great department and we look forward to working with our partners to build a better future for Nova Scotians through responsible and sustainable natural resources management.

 

With those few brief remarks, Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased now to take members' questions or comments that they might have, and look forward to working with my support here to try our best to answer those questions for them. Thank you.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Your opening remarks were 35 minutes, leaving us three hours and 25 minutes for questioning for today - more, if required, but that will probably do it. We'll begin with the Liberal caucus.

 

The honourable member for Dartmouth East, you have one hour.

 

MR. ANDREW YOUNGER: There are a number of areas I'd like to go through today. Since we have representatives of the canal commission here at the moment, I figure I'll start with them so they don't have to stick around for three and however-many-hours the chairman just said we have.

 

Can you tell me what the grant level for the canal commission will be for 2012-13?

 

MR. PARKER: I'm certainly glad we have visitors with us here today from the canal commission, and I've had the opportunity to visit the Fairbanks Centre and I know it's a great asset, a wonderful facility - the whole Shubenacadie Canal is of historical importance. I must commend the honourable member who last year, along with help from the commission, produced a book on the topic. It is a great book and I know it was a timely Christmas gift for many. Congratulations, member.

 

The funding level, I believe, is $32,100. That has been an ongoing amount that our department has supported. There is other possible ongoing support, but that's the basic level of funding.

 

MR. YOUNGER: That was the same level as last year, as you noted. Obviously at one time they were receiving over $100,000 a year, as you probably know. This has forced them into fundraising efforts. I mean you mentioned the book and I appreciate you mentioning that. Obviously I don't make any money off that now and all that money goes to the commission. It was sort of done for them but as you know, unlike many of the other groups that received contributions, they are governed by an Act of the Legislature that was introduced by Rollie Thornhill a number of years back, and they are mandated to manage certain provincial assets. Obviously the Fairbanks Centre is one of them.

 

There are nine provincial parklands that they also manage, and in February they presented your department with an asset management review indicating there was $68,000 of immediate needs - that's not even operational issues - of capital needs in order to address liability concerns that would be on provincial land and that the province would be responsible for. Can you tell me what the status of - I assume your department would review that since it's your own properties that obviously require attention. It was also presented again at the Resources Committee meeting - I don't remember when that was but it was a number of months ago - it was presented there, as well, for all the members.

 

MR. PARKER: Mr. Chairman, we are undertaking a parks review here in our province over the next short while. It will be started and all our parks, whether it's a camping park, a day-use park, or park reserves - certainly the Shubenacadie Canal would fall under our parks review - you know, to see how best we can support projects moving forward, so we're going to be looking for public input and ideas. I'd certainly welcome the commission, if they wanted to appear before that review committee and, you know, we're blessed in this province with many great natural resources, and our parks are certainly an important component of that. I certainly know the value of the Shubenacadie Canal, so I'd welcome input from honourable members or from the commission or all ordinary Nova Scotians who have any input on the parks review.

 

The plan that the member had referred to has been received by the department and it's under review, but we certainly want to see the canal continue to be an important and historic part of our province and continue to be visited by many, many people from here and elsewhere.

 

MR. YOUNGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and minister, I will get to the parks review in a second. Obviously they have made other asks which are more in terms of long-range planning, but what I'm talking about here is this would be no different than, let's say, the Shubenacadie Wildlife Park, you know, if they had a fence that had fallen down and was causing a liability concern for the province. My concern here would be that the province has been advised in writing of liability issues for which there are, obviously, liabilities of varying degrees. I know that some of these are shared jurisdiction issues but all of the ones which have been supplied to your department are ones that are a provincial responsibility and, frankly, are liability issues on provincial parkland.

 

So we're going to talk about the park thing in a minute which is important and I understand that that's part of a process, but I think this is a little bit different because these are obviously issues of immediate concern and I know last year - or maybe it was two years ago now - there was a similar issue with the Fairbanks Centre, which is managed by the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, and I know Minister Estabrooks did have to address that and found the money for the roof repairs because it was an immediate liability issue at that time. These are similar issues that have been professionally determined and that's why - I do want to talk about the other issue you raised but we'll talk about that in a minute. I'd just like to talk about addressing the immediate liability concerns.

 

MR. PARKER: That request has been received - I believe a couple months back - and it's certainly under review, being considered here by the department but as you can well imagine, honourable member, we have many pressures on our budget including from many other sources - not just in the Department of Natural Resources but overall. We're trying to live within our means as a province. We've had the Treasury Board tell us that we have to try to live with less money but that request has been received amongst numerous others, and it's certainly under full review and being considered at this time.

 

MR. YOUNGER: I recognize that but I don't think you would suggest for a second that we should be closing provincial parkland which is what could happen with some of the things on the list if it's not done because it would be a safety issue, frankly, and generally speaking safety issues are dealt with differently. We're going to get to the park stuff in a minute where you talk about new trails, upgraded trails, or upgraded infrastructure. That's obviously a whole different debate which we can have after.

 

I have to assume that somewhere in your department you have money set aside for issues that are potential liabilities. Some of these the department has been notified repeatedly of and I think you're probably well aware that if something was to happen the very fact that the department has been notified would more than likely make them more liable than they would had they not been aware of these things.

 

Listen, some of these things have been on the list before this government, frankly, and they just continue to deteriorate, and the longer they deteriorate the more costly they are. I understand why you wouldn't want to rebuild the lock or you wouldn't want to rebuild the trail, that all makes sense to me with the financial stuff, but it's the safety issues and I'm wondering why it sounds like this is being treated differently, even though this is provincially-owned land, than say something that happens in another provincially-owned park that's being managed directly by your department, and I'm wondering why that is.

 

MR. PARKER: I recognize the importance of the issue that you raised, liability issues are very important and I'll undertake to at least look at this again and see if we can see what's there, but I do know that our department has been seriously looking at it. Again, I'll mention the importance and the value of our parks review and I would encourage the members of the commission or the general public that have an interest in this wonderful facility to bring forward issues and good reasons why projects should be improved or enhanced within the Shubenacadie Canal. We do know and recognize it is a very important facility within our park structure in the province, quite unique, quite different than a regular provincial park. I know it's important to Nova Scotians, and that's why I encourage those interested in the canal to be heard during the parks review. As I said I'll undertake to look at this issue again within the department.

 

MR. YOUNGER: Okay, and as I said I'm going to get to the parks review in a second. Could you maybe provide a timeline when you might be able to get back to the commission, like say two months, is that reasonable?

 

MR. PARKER: I'll undertake to look at it within a reasonable period. I'll discuss it further with my deputy and others, and I'll just make the commitment that we'll have our best look at it.

 

MR. YOUNGER: I would encourage you to get back to them - I'm not saying everything has to be funded in two months but I would encourage you to get back to them in a reasonable time frame, because obviously these things continue to deteriorate and there is an issue that at some point decisions have to either be made in the department or by the commission, in some cases maybe as far as closing off certain parts of provincial parkland, depending on the answer. It would just be - an answer at this point is as important as the money itself.

 

We'll move to the other part, which is the review of provincial parks. The organization actually did make a presentation to the Resources Committee, they currently manage nine areas of provincial parkland along that corridor between Halifax Harbour and Maitland. I would be interested to know, one of the proposals they made at that committee meeting was that they could probably more cost effectively take over the management of the remaining provincial parklands as part of the very review you're talking about in that corridor. Obviously it would be a little bit ridiculous for them to take over things that aren't in that corridor. Is that something your department is willing - I know the review is underway - is that something your department would be open to looking at as an option since they already have that body in place?

 

MR. PARKER: Certainly we're open to all reasonable suggestions to enhance our park system. We're looking for input from Nova Scotians from one end of our province to the other. We are going to have to reach out to Nova Scotians across the province and encourage people to attend and bring their good suggestions forward. That consultation process will be very important and we need to hear what it is that Nova Scotians value. Everybody loves their park in their community, I'm sure we'll hear about lots of stories of how it's a benefit to them and to their children and their grandchildren even. Some people use the parks on a very regular basis, or take a walk in the woods or maybe go fishing in the brook or whatever.

 

We're looking for suggestions on how we can improve or make better some of our parks. Unfortunately some of them are used sparingly; others are very active, very busy. We have some of our most beautiful beaches contained within our provincial parks; Mr. Chairman, you would certainly be familiar with Melmerby Beach and how well it's used. People use our parks for such a great variety of reasons and it's a real asset that we have. We have 120 provincial parks; counting our park reserves and wilderness protection areas, we have well over 300 separate parcels of land. I would encourage anyone that has a strong interest in a particular park or in the park system in general to come out to these public meetings and tell us what you'd like to see and how they should be enhanced.

 

Maybe there's a need somewhere for a brand-new park, or maybe there's a park that's so little used there's some justification for not keeping it open. These are the things we need to hear from Nova Scotians, to tell us what is valuable and important to them. The nine provincial parks you reference are adjacent to the canal, and I'm sure those are important to many people along the route from the Atlantic coast to the Bay of Fundy. We need to hear from everyone that has an interest in those particular parks and we'd welcome their input as the process unfolds.

 

MR. YOUNGER: It's interesting to note that some of the busiest provincial parklands in the province are actually along the canal corridor. In fact, the busiest provincial parkland in the entire province is actually in Dartmouth, the provincial portion of Shubie Park which sees just over 500 visitors a day on the provincial portion. Obviously there are busier parks, federal parks and so forth.

 

On the broader scale, it sounds like some of the things you are considering are community groups and all different sorts of organizations that might be able to take over management - I assume that's what you're considering with some of these parks. What is going to ensure that if community groups or legislatively-constituted organizations or so forth take over management of some of these parklands - whether it's in Cape Breton or Yarmouth - that they don't run into the same problem that, you know, the single one that we have now that's legislatively-mandated is running into where suddenly they find themselves not being able to get funding for liabilities on provincially-owned land - what in that strategy is going to prevent that from happening to other organizations? I think that's something that might scare some groups off from taking it over.

 

We've already seen that with some of the trails in the province where municipalities are out there saying build the trail, the province would throw in money, the municipality would throw in money, and then something would happen and the trail organizations would get stuck with either closing the trail or maintenance bills they couldn't afford. So I'm wondering, how are you going to prevent that from continuing on other parkland?

 

MR. PARKER: Certainly as I mentioned, somewhere probably in my opening remarks, you know, Nova Scotians are proud of their parks. They're pleased that they're in their neighbourhoods, and it might be for a Sunday afternoon picnic, or it might just be for a walk in the woods, to get away from it all, to clear your head, or maybe take an alder pole and go down to the brook and see if you can catch a fish. But, you know, people go there for all kinds of different reasons: to enjoy nature, and just to get away from the hustle and bustle of everyday life. So we're lucky to have, I think as I mentioned, over 300 provincial parks, park reserves, and wilderness protection areas that are well used by Nova Scotians.

 

The study that's coming up, the parks review will give us a chance to look at maybe different suggestions or different models that might work to enhance particular parks. We do have through our director of parks, Harold Carroll, who has been directly involved with a number of community groups that are interested, or protecting a certain park, we have what we call the "Friends of," so there might be a Friends of Laurie Park - I know in my neck of the woods, in Pictou County, there's a particular interest right now in setting up a Friends of Green Hill Park, which is a high hill overlooking a good portion of our county. On a clear day you can see almost up to Cumberland County in one direction and if you just look over the hill, you can see down towards Antigonish County. So it has a great view in good weather. It's a day-use park but it's the viewing possibility that you see there.

 

So that's one option that people who have an interest in a particular park can set up, and I know Harold would be more than willing to sit down with any group or community to see if a "Friends of" a particular park could be set up. They have different models - I'm not sure of all the different models out there but, you know, liability issues are one thing they need to address, but they can look at maybe how they can enhance it a bit more or maybe they want to cut a little more grass in an area. I had one request recently from a daughter of a gentleman who just died and wanted to know if they could plant a tree in memory of him in this particular park and, you know, that's certainly something that we can entertain and look at but again, because there's a "Friends of," it's a community-based group that can help bring those small community projects or issues forward. I call it "small" but it's certainly very big and very important to the family that wants to see this done.

 

So I think there are different models that can be looked at, but certainly our parks review is our opportunity to look at models, I guess to look at different ways to enhance the governance of our parks under the mandate and jurisdiction of the Department of Natural Resources. But we want to work with communities to find other ways that we can bring new ideas or new innovation to our provincial parks. So we're trying to create that over the next 10 years or so, what will come out of the parks review. I guess all models are possible, all options will be considered, and we would certainly want to hear from Nova Scotians on how we can enhance our parks so that Nova Scotians can continue to enjoy them.

 

MR. YOUNGER: I'm going to move on to a different subject. When you were here the other day as the Minister of Energy, I asked you a question, which we determined I'd ask you again today because it better fits in this department, and that's regarding Stellarton and the open-pit coal mine there, Pioneer Coal.

 

Just to refresh your memory, you'll remember that the Department of Environment has an ongoing permit there and that's valid, but the permit from the Department of Natural Resources - I think is what we determined the other day, we were trying to figure out if it was Energy or Natural Resources - has lapsed and yet operations are still continuing there. Can you advise what the status of that is?

 

MR. PARKER: I'm certainly familiar with the surface mine in Stellarton, not living too far from there. I see it every time I go to New Glasgow, Stellarton, Trenton, or Westville. It is right in the middle - if you drive along the Trans-Canada, of course, you can't help but see it as you're driving towards Antigonish.

 

It has been there since 1996 and it certainly created a number of valuable jobs for workers in our community. I recognize there have been some environmental concerns about it and I think it has a lifespan left - I'm told - of maybe three to four years, somewhere in that range. It's winding down, it's coming near the end of its time. Actually, some of that land has been reclaimed and, in fact, there's now a new sports complex on the facility, a first-class indoor facility there, and also I think there has been some other infrastructure - there's a water tank there now that the Town of Stellarton has.

 

As far as the permit, I understand it's fully permitted. There's an industrial approval that has been granted by the Department of Environment and it has its mining permit - I guess the industrial approval will expire in 2021 so it's certainly well after the mine will probably close. It also has its amended special lease that's good for 20 years, from 1996 to 2016. The only other application pending is a land lease - I think there's two different pieces of land that it's under lease. One is ongoing and the other one, a letter of authority was issued in September of last year that allows it to continue. I think it's fully permitted at this time.

 

MR. YOUNGER: So there seems to be some confusion around this letter of authority. I assume that would relate to the right to - I know all the other ones are in place, but in terms of the right to access the surface of the ground, I think is how this works.

 

The original lease for the surface of the ground had expired - and I assume that's what would have triggered this letter of authority. You're probably aware, living in the area, that media reports had indicated that no lease or anything had existed and your own department officials had confirmed this and I believe - I don't have the article in front of me - had used the phrase that they were in the process of negotiating a new lease and acknowledged that it had expired. This letter of authority that apparently was issued in September, does that supersede the need for a negotiated lease then?

 

MR. PARKER: As I mentioned, the industrial approval is in place, the mining permit is in place, those run for many, many years to come. The letter of authority you referenced is on one of the two pieces of land and apparently the lease had expired on the land. The letter of authority gives it the full right to continue mining and so they're in compliance in all respects at this time.

 

MR. YOUNGER: Okay. I'd like to then ask about the other Pioneer Coal site, which is up in Point Aconi. The previous government had advertised it as a reclamation project, and I know there's a reclamation component but at some point in the distant future. Do you know what the length of the lease is at the Point Aconi site, or I guess the length of the permit?

 

MR. PARKER: I don't have that information right here with me on the length of the lease but we can certainly obtain it for you and let you know.

 

MR. YOUNGER: Thank you. I would appreciate receiving that. I would also be interested to know - maybe you know this, but if you don't, you can get me the information. There are, as you're probably aware, a number of homes on the - well, now they're basically on the face of the mine or the face portions of the mine. You may have been up there yourself, I'm not sure, but I've certainly been up there on a number of the properties and standing in the backyards, looking down into the mine.

 

There is some concern about - I know that Pioneer Coal has had some success in purchasing some of the properties and moving people along, in fairness. There are others that they have had less success with and I'm just wondering what the department's position is on that.

 

If you haven't been up there, I encourage you to go because there are some homes that the situation is such that you basically have what amounts to snow fencing along the top of the ridge line, as opposed to any sort of particularly strong barrier which to me, I would suggest, seems to be a safety hazard. The mine is moving gradually closer to a number of homes, some of which are now vacant, of course, but some of which are not. I'm wondering whether the department has a position on whether Pioneer Coal would be required to buy the remaining homes that are on the face of that strip mine - obviously assuming the property owners are interested in selling.

 

MR. PARKER: I don't have that information right here with me but we'll certainly undertake to get it for you. I know there has been concern over time, certainly with Point Aconi, and it has been ongoing long before this government came here and it has been for a long, long time under the previous government as well.

 

I guess we're always trying to find that balance between protecting the environment and providing economic opportunities for our workforce. It is a delicate balance to get it right and we don't want to cause environmental harm. On the other hand, we want to utilize our natural resources in an environmentally-sustainable way and provide those good jobs. Certainly the mining industry is known for probably above-average wages that they pay.

 

Coal mining has been vital and important to Cape Breton, certainly as it has in northern Nova Scotia. Surface coal mining is all that's available now in our province. That may change with the Donkin underground project, but those are still valuable and important jobs and it's a resource that's in our communities. There's a lot of knowledge and experience with miners and it's great to see that at least there's some mining taking place both in Cape Breton and on the mainland, but at this point in time it is surface extraction.

 

So I'll undertake to get that for you, honourable member, and we'll have that hopefully before - not this afternoon but we'll get it for you at some future point.

 

MR. YOUNGER: I appreciate that. I will point out, and I must give credit to my honourable colleague, the member for Cape Breton West, for reminding me that while it is true that the mining salaries tend to be above average, it's not always true with strip mining. There's a distinction between underground mines and wages and above-ground mines. There is an important distinction there, especially when we reflect on the fact that all of the mining, as you pointed out, in Nova Scotia at the moment is above-ground - strip mining, I guess.

 

I would also say that while I recognize that the project did start under a previous government - and it's not about whether the project should be there or shouldn't be there - your government has been there for three years now so in three years you have to start taking responsibility. It's okay in the first budget, after six months, to blame everything on the previous government, but after three years it's not because there has been enough time to do something.

 

The thing is that what I'm trying to find out here is there are people who came to the understanding, and in fact as of a couple months ago it was still on your Web site - I don't know if it still is today - advertising that project as a reclamation project and not a mining project. I don't think there's anybody in this - I'm sure there's some technical term that makes this a reclamation project because I do understand that at the end of it they'll fill the thing back in and they'll plant trees or there will be some kind of reclamation associated with it.

 

To the average person living in Point Aconi and Boularderie Island it is not a reclamation project, it is a "dig a big hole" project and "shake the foundations of homes" project. Whether that project makes sense economically or not - and maybe it does have widespread support - it doesn't change the fact that if you live next to it there are issues that people feel aren't being addressed and some of those people, at least, feel they are getting brushed off by the Department of Environment and Department of Natural Resources when they raise those concerns.

 

That's why what I'm interested to know is the project is approved and it's going ahead, it's not going to stop, and I'm not suggesting for a second here that suddenly that project is going to be closed down, but the answers that I'm seeking are what is the goal, or what is the oversight that the Department of Natural Resources is giving to this project to ensure that the conditions of the permit from your department are actually being met?

 

To be fair, I'm going to ask the same question to the Minister of Environment, so you can go outside on the break and tell him if you want, because I think there are two permits and I recognize that there are overlapping jurisdictions. I think we're at the point where there are residents up there that want to know what the department's position is on the economic development verses the requirement to actually follow the letter and spirit of the permits, and what happens to people who now find themselves living on the face of a mine and would frankly like to get the heck out of there.

 

MR. PARKER: Thank you. I know the Department of Environment probably has more jurisdiction on this as far as the environmental permitting and the day-to-day monitoring and working with the company. The Department of Energy recognizes it as a mineral that's of value to Nova Scotians. I know the Department of Economic Development also has a role to ensure that there are good environmentally-responsible jobs from the project; certainly the Department of Environment is the jurisdiction on the environmental permitting and just the day to day.

 

There are maybe just a couple other suggestions I can make to the honourable member. We know there is a liaison committee that people may have the opportunity to work with that tries to get some answers that they require. The member also referenced the Surface Coal Mine Reclamation Enhancement Initiative, which has been undertaken now for a number a years to look at ways that once a mine is finished, what is the best way to reclaim the land? So that study is soon to be finishing up and we'll be looking at it within the Department of Natural Resources and see what the best way is to move forward.

 

The initial indications are that it is possible to reclaim the land and have it returned to an Acadian type of forest that was originally here across our province. That study has been going on, I think, for the last few years. That has been looked at by university researchers and just a combination of skilled people to look at different models or different ways to reclaim the land so that we end up with land that is usable again, whether it's forests or for other uses. So that final report will be coming, I think, later this Spring, and we'll be studying it within the department and seeing how we can move forward on the reclamation that's best for the land. But overall, honourable member, certainly we want to give you as comprehensive an answer as we can and our department will undertake to get that information for you.

 

MR. YOUNGER: Thank you, and I would appreciate it if somebody in your department could get me some information just regarding what the expectations are for that site from Natural Resources. I can ask the same thing from Environment - I wouldn't ask you to do the Department of Environment's job - but just in terms of your department, what the expectations are of things like the projected lifespan of the mine and to some extent when that reclamation which is required by your department begins. Obviously they've cleared out a section for that mine and one would have expected at this point, I would think, the reclamation to have begun at least in parts of it, and it doesn't appear to have done so.

 

I think I probably only have like - yes, I only have 20 minutes left. Oh, did you want to - sure.

 

MR. PARKER: My deputy here just found out that the lease at Point Aconi runs until April 1, 2025. That was one of the questions that you had asked initially and also that's for your information.

 

MR. YOUNGER: I appreciate that, thank you very much.

 

Probably a little more than a year ago your predecessor in this department stood outside on the Legislature steps and said there will be no whole-tree harvesting. He's not the minister anymore, you are. We asked about this in Question Period and my honourable colleague, the member for Cape Breton West, also asked about this a few days later in Question Period. He got more questions in than I did because I ran out of time, although I don't know that either one of us got any more of an answer. So is your government maintaining its commitment to ban whole-tree harvesting in Nova Scotia?

 

MR. PARKER: Mr. Chairman, certainly one of the strategic directions announced on December 1, 2010, was that there would be no whole-tree harvesting allowed in this province. That was under the previous minister, as it was pointed out, and that was reinforced in our Natural Resources Strategy that came out on August 16, 2011, and that's certainly very much our goal, our policy. We're not going to allow whole-tree harvesting in Nova Scotia. We're working very hard right now with a lot of stakeholders, including major industry and smaller industry, woodlot owners, ecologists, and a lot of different Nova Scotians on coming up with the exact policy on whole-tree harvesting.

 

We know the value of keeping the nutrients in the soil, leaving the limbs and the tops on the land so they can rot over time and provide nutrients back to the next generation of trees. We're certainly only going to allow the stems to be harvested, you know, whether that's a quality veneer log or right down to firewood and everything in between. The stem of the tree will be allowed but the roots, stumps, branches, and tops, will remain on the land to provide the nutrient value for future generations of trees.

So as I said, we're working with a lot of stakeholders to come up with the exact definition - I'm not sure, maybe "definition" isn't the right word - but the rules and regulations around that will be incorporated into the code of forest practices, and that work is ongoing. It has been undertaken over the past few months but it's also incorporated into our whole ecosystem management system. Some land is more productive than others. It depends on the soil, it depends on the amount of rock that's in the soil. Some land grows trees because it's sheltered, it's not as windy or it's not as - there's not enough water or there's too much water. There are a lot of factors and even the species, the mix of the trees will determine what type of forest practices can be undertaken or what type of harvesting technique can be used.

 

So we've undertaken with the soil nutrient budget model, I believe we've employed Professor Arp from the University of New Brunswick to look at our soil model in the province and determine what type of forestry practice can best be used on the land. Some land can grow beautiful red spruce and others can only grow grey birch or alders, or whatever, because there are all these factors that go into what the soil will support, as well as these other environmental factors that I mentioned. If you get a piece of coastal land that's very open to the strong wind, it's going to grow stunted trees and it will not grow quality forest products.

 

So every piece of land is different and we're working hard on our ecosystem modelling in the province, and that will ultimately determine what type of forestry or what type of trees can be grown on the land. So the whole-tree harvesting rules and regulations are, I guess, in the final stages, but it will be incorporated into the code of forest practices. But the bottom line is we're not going to allow whole-tree harvesting in the province. (Interruption)

 

MR. YOUNGER: One of the honourable members said that should be clear. I'm not sure if it was a yes or no answer that took five minutes to say yes or no. I think the answer was you're not going to allow it but then there was "but," "yes," "but." So it sounds like maybe we're not going to allow it except under a whole bunch of conditions. Let me hope that's a no and see where it comes. Either that or - I guess the other fear that some people would have is that you might define whole-tree harvesting in such a way that it effectively allows it and just makes nothing whole-tree harvesting, which brings me to my other issue of clear-cutting.

 

I guess part of the concern - and you've heard this from a number of people on the Opposition benches anyway, and I suspect from what I'm hearing you've heard it from some of your own members, maybe in caucus or privately, at least that's what they tell us - is it has taken so long to define things like "clear-cutting" and "whole-tree harvesting" that it really doesn't help anybody. The people who don't want that begin to lose faith and the people in the industry don't know what they're going to be allowed to do and can't plan for the future, and frankly can't plant for the future, because they don't know what conditions - so I would like to understand why it's taking so long to get, you know, final definitions for these sorts of things because it strikes me that this has been going on a long time now.

MR. PARKER: Mr. Chairman, this is an issue that has consumed a lot of our time within the Department of Natural Resources; certainly our provincial forester and our department within the sustainable branch, we've been working hard on this.

 

Our strategy was released in August of last year, as you know, in Port Hawkesbury, and I think within a week or two we learned that the mill in Liverpool - Bowater - was going to close and that it would be completely closed out by the end of the year or January of this year. On top of that, NewPage announced they were seeking creditor protection. So while we had two very large mills that were in some economic trouble, our Premier and our government and our staff within this department, and numerous departments really, took the bull by the horns, I guess, and got on that to see how we could work with those two large industries, to try to save thousands of jobs in eastern Nova Scotia and in southwest Nova Scotia, as well, on the South Shore.

 

So some of our very best people in the Department of Natural Resources were seconded to help in the initiative to try to find a solution, to find that balance, to save thousands of jobs in our forest industry and, you know, I'm not saying that's an excuse why we didn't get the definition of "clear-cutting" finished, but it certainly was a factor when some of your best people are working on these other major projects. But we have committed that within five years of the implementation of The Path We Share - our Natural Resources Strategy - that we would reach our goal of 50 per cent of the area that would be harvested by clear-cutting, which means 50 per cent would be from alternate harvesting methods such as selection harvesting or partial harvesting techniques. We have worked with our staff as best we can to come up with a definition as mentioned in the strategy, though.

 

We did have, I guess you could call it, the layman's definition of "clear-cutting": an area where all the trees are removed from an area except for the wildlife and watercourse regulations that are important for maintaining those components. Since then our staff have worked very hard with industry, woodlot owners, sawmillers, and with non-government organizations such as the Ecology Action Centre and others, to try to find the right definition of "clear-cutting." We're very close to coming up with the technical definition. In fact, I would dare say that we have actually come up with that definition, and it's going to be released to the public very shortly and will lay out the exact definition on a technical basis.

 

Really, we've consulted with many forestry contractors, harvesters, and workers, and while the unfortunate situation with NewPage when it was announced last August happened, it was also an opportunity for us to try out some of our new forestry practices. The Premier had committed in the seven-point plan that extensive silviculture and harvesting would still be ongoing, roads would continue to be maintained, and truckers would be employed. As part of that initiative, we've had people out in the woods experimenting with various techniques on clear-cutting and partial harvesting and restorative harvest. It has given us an opportunity to practise and to find out what a clear-cut might look like.

Actually, in February I had an opportunity, first of all, to be in a classroom with a number of stakeholders from industry and from government organizations and harvesters, to get some of the classroom definition, I guess, of what various types of harvesting would look like, and then later that day we had the opportunity to go to Guysborough County and eastern Pictou County on the ground with the harvesters, with the woods workers and see some of the machines in action, see some of the men working there and see what it looked like. They had different patches and different trials, and generally they were enthusiastic about the possibilities of working in this new type of forestry and looking at partial harvests and selection harvesting, and even with some of the very large machines that have been previously used for nothing but a massive clear-cut, they're fairly nimble and fairly able to work in amongst the trees and while there's a path that they can reach in a long way in both directions to selectively harvest trees.

 

It has really been a very hands-on, consultative process; 250 silviculture jobs were maintained out of the Premier's seven-point plan and a lot of harvesting jobs were there as well, as wood was cut for the NewPage mill. So that has really given us a blessing in disguise, I guess, to look at some of the techniques that could be used to look at how we can roll out some of the actions within the Natural Resources Strategy, including the definition of "clear-cut." That work is primarily complete, both on the ground and in the department. I expect that within the very near future we'll have a full technical definition of "clear-cut."

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Younger, I usually give a 10-minute warning on time running out. You have about eight minutes left.

 

MR. YOUNGER: Earlier when we were talking about Pioneer Coal, I think you understand that you were talking about the economic importance of the mine and jobs and everything. I'm sure you must understand then that people who own small woodlots and mills and so forth are at a disadvantage while they wait for these regulations to come down because they're planting trees and lots and harvesting for the next 20, 40, or 50 years in some cases. I understand NewPage - and we can debate whether NewPage and Bowater were predictable or not, but I understand whether they were predictable or not, they obviously took staff to deal with that, I understand that. The problem is just like in those two deals, it's the little guys who are getting the short end of the stick.

 

When I was in Liverpool just recently it was interesting that it was mainly the small woodlot owners who were concerned about the way the deal was structured with Bowater, in that case, and it was the small harvesters. It was the small guys up in the Strait area that got stuck not by a policy decision by your government, but just by the way that it filtered down, they're the ones that got left fighting in the courts to get paid for things. I would argue that there are probably more of them employed, or potentially - maybe not at the moment, but there are more individuals in small harvesters and woodlot owners and people that own little family woodlots who are impacted than sometimes they are impacted through the big guys.

 

I guess what I'd like to get a sense of is there has been a lot of attention, perhaps rightly so on the big ones, Bowater and NewPage. The key to the long-term success in the forest industry in Nova Scotia is going to be diversification. I met with people who felt that when NewPage was still running it felt that they weren't getting access to the hardwoods before NewPage went in and tore things out. Some mills up in the Guysborough area - some harvesters in the Guysborough area, I don't think there are actually mills in there - felt that they were being hard done by and my colleague, the member for Kings West and I toured a number of woodlots up there, wooded areas where they showed us where they were losing economic opportunity in the Guysborough area because they weren't able to get the hardwoods out - tour after tour up there over a day of different locations where this was happening.

 

What is your government's plan, or your department's plan, to address the concerns of the small guys who probably have a lot more economic per acre of forest, probably end up pumping a lot more money into the local economy than necessarily the big guys do, because all of their profits stay in Nova Scotia, all of their expenditures are in Nova Scotia, whether it's fixing the chainsaw down at the local store and so forth.

 

MR. PARKER: I'm glad you've asked this question because it's near and dear to my heart, the importance of supporting the little guy, I guess. The backbone of our industry in the province is really the small operators, the small, private woodlot owners, the small contractor - really that's the base of our industry; the heart and soul of the forest industry is the private woodlot owner. I guess I feel like I'm part of that; there's something like 30,000 small woodlot owners in the province and I'm the owner of a small woodlot as well, so I certainly appreciate any opportunity I get out to work on the land.

 

I've grown up on a family farm where we had the large woodlot and had that opportunity many times to work - I guess maybe I'm telling my age here - but working with horses originally and then working with farm tractors, and continue to see the woodlot diversify and change over time. It quickly went from horses and tractors right up to tree farmer, and then the next thing you know we had very large processors and very large equipment costing half a million dollars or more, so the industry transformed from the 1960s right into this decade.

 

Now I think we're at a critical point where we're really at a transformative change point where the industry is once again starting to go back to the importance of the small, private woodlot, the small contractor, maybe even the small sawmill. I think large industry is starting to recognize the importance of working with the little guy, so to speak, and they recognize that the private woodlot owner maybe is the key to their survival, the key to a prosperous future.

 

We, in the Department of Natural Resources, certainly believe that. We know we've been putting a lot of emphasis on small, private woodlot owners. In fact, in the last budget a year ago we put $5 million into our budget; $1 million of that was for woodlot outreach and training, education programs through groups like Picea Forestry and a number of others, and on-the-ground training with the woodlot owner, whether that's working on a management plan at their kitchen table or out in the hardwood grove trying to determine which trees are the most valuable to retain, which trees should be cut if they're over mature or diseased in some way.

 

We spent $2.2 million last year on silvicultural programs through the Association for Sustainable Forestry. We also have almost $2 million set aside to develop a harvest tracking system so we can know what type of wood is being harvested; whether it's balsam fir or red oak, we'll get a handle on the species and the amount of hardwood and softwood in total.

 

Again, as I mentioned, I think we're at a point of transformative change. We know the value of working with the 30,000 small, private woodlot owners. Industry has come to recognize that. Certainly our government and our department are pushing to encourage good stewardship of our land and encourage small-business development. We're working on training programs for small contractors, so someone that does good selection harvesting or good work in the woodlot can get the training they need. I mentioned earlier that work was done in Guysborough and Pictou Counties, and elsewhere, in the seven-point plan.

 

Those are all good initiatives to try to get good stewardship of the land and allow small, private woodlot owners to be engaged but to take pride in their lands, and that in turn will be of benefit to large industry. I know our time here, honourable member, is just about up, so if you want to continue in the next round when you come back, I'd certainly be willing to talk about it further.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: That concludes the time for the Liberal caucus right to the second. We will have another hour for the Liberal caucus after we have an hour from the Progressive Conservative caucus.

 

The honourable member for Cape Breton West.

 

MR. ALFIE MACLEOD: I look forward to this opportunity to speak to the minister and I welcome his staff here tonight. I'm going to start off on kind of a different vein. Right off the bat I want to thank you and your department, in particular Bill Smith and Don Feldman on the work they've been doing on two specific files that have an impact on my community. One of them is the MV Miner and the second one is the Gabarus seawall. Both of those individuals have been very helpful, forthright, and I'm sure that comes from the direction they receive from their minister.

 

So many times we take time to talk about the bad things so I think it's only right that I mention the good work they're doing and how much the communities appreciate it, and I hope that we can continue on in that vein in a timely manner so we can resolve those two issues. They are big concerns and I know you know that, minister, because we've had some discussion about that.

 

If I could, I have a bunch of different things I want to talk to you about. I'm sure you aren't really surprised at that. Just because we were talking about forestry and a little bit about what's taking place with the seven-point plan, I'd like to know what has actually been done under the seven-point plan for the private contractors who were suppliers of fibre for the mill in Point Tupper. I know there has been a lot of activity with training and other things with the Crown contractors, as we call them. I'm wondering where you see things have been done for the private contractors who are small businessmen, who have more challenges which are much greater than some of the ones that are presented to the people that are Crown contractors because they have to identify their supply of wood, they have to build their own roads, and they don't have any rebates on fuel and those types of things? I'm just wondering what the seven-point plan has done for a private contractor.

 

MR. PARKER: Welcome to our budget debate this afternoon, honourable member. I must say off the top I do appreciate your kind words about our staff. I know we have many dedicated staff in the Department of Natural Resources. I know Mr. Smith has certainly been working with you and others on those important projects: the MV Miner, the Gabarus seawall, and other issues in Cape Breton as well. It's always good to get a compliment, as they say, when things go right.

 

The situation on the seven-point plan, as you know, I think it was six days after we released our Natural Resources Strategy - coincidentally in Port Hawkesbury - that we learned the news that NewPage was in some financial trouble and were seeking creditor protection. So there was a period of time there was some uncertainty; the mill was going to close on September 9^th, I think it was, and there was encouragement to bring wood into the mill as fast as possible, which was done. Then there were some challenges after that date about how to get paid.

 

Part of the seven-point plan was dealing with some of those claims, I guess, that were outstanding - some from Crown land, from contractors under NewPage, and some from private land - because everybody had worked hard in those last few days to get as much wood to the mill as they could. Through the monitor and through the court process, of course, there was a process where claims could be looked at - and I do have some details on the number of claims, and they've all been settled now or all accounted for one way or the other. As of March 21^st, I think there were 55 silviculture claims in the value of about $1.429 million under the silviculture reserve fund, 19 Crown land silviculture claims, and 36 private land silviculture claims.

 

The monitor, based on the best information he had, has distributed close to $1 million now under the silviculture reserve funds - $526,000 of that went to Crown claims and $463,000 to private claims, so roughly a 55-45 breakdown between the Crown and private. He looked at all the claims and based on the best information he had, that money was paid out to those claims that he thought were legitimate during that period of time. That has been settled. Again, that was the period between August 22^nd and September 9^th.

 

The same issue around the woodsmen's reserve fund; that's not for silviculture but for wood that was harvested during that period of time and delivered to the mill. Again, the monitor has looked at all this and determined which ones were legitimate claims and which were not. He has determined there were 146 claimants and has paid out a total to date of roughly $2.2 million on those woods claims. That's about 75 per cent of what came before him for consideration - a little over 75 per cent. That was from the period of August 22^nd to September 9^th. I think it was about one-third private and two-thirds Crown, was the ratio of those claims. (Interruption)

 

Sorry, I have some up-to-date information here. These are actually contractors. There were 39 private contractors that received compensation and 53 from Crown land, I guess, but again some of those were private operators on the Crown lands. So those claims have been settled in that three-week period since the mill announced its closure until the last wood was received. So it has varied from the silviculture claim to the woodsmen's claim, but that money has been settled and it has been paid out.

 

Since that time there has been training for contractors, and I referenced my discussions there with the previous member that there's a lot training - some of that was with private contractors, some of it was with Crown contractors, so it has been a good mix. Most of them have enthusiastically supported the idea of alternative harvesting, they know that the goal of 50 per cent clear-cutting in the province is going to be adhered to, and both private contractors and, I guess, still private contractors but who work on the Crown land have supported the idea of alternative harvesting methods and are quite willing to take the training that's required to do that. I think it was three-week training sessions that were held for a number of contractors, and I think it was roughly two-thirds and one-third - Crown and private contractors - that were taking that training. It was open to a variety of contractors and we were looking at the continued options to help deliver more of those programs to other contractors around the province.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Mr. Minister, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but what you identified was what the monitor did and the monitor did that with a fund of money that was allotted to him under the receivership program. My question had been what did this province do in its seven-point plan for the private contractors? What did the government's seven-point plan actually accomplish?

 

The information you gave was very interesting but that was the work of the monitor under the receivership plan. I want to know what the seven-point plan did for these contractors.

 

MR. PARKER: Again, that money under the seven-point plan was designed to keep woods workers employed, and for contractors to able to cut pulpwood, firewood, biomass, stud wood, or logs - whatever was on the land that could be sustainably harvested. Again, my understanding is 18 company contractors were employed. There were 39 private contractors for a total of 53 contracting companies. Now those may vary in size and would have a few employees and may have a large number - but 53 total contractors, 39 of which were private operators.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Of those contractors, how much wood fibre did they produce since they began this challenge of keeping ready for the hot idle, how much of that wood have they produced? That will be good to start.

 

MR. PARKER: I'll undertake to get the answer for you but it just disappeared here out of thin air, I guess. The total harvest since the program began in September - I believe 140,000 tons have been harvested. Some of that, of course, was quality logs that would have gone to mills that saw that material; some of it was stud wood that would have gone to stud mills; some of it is pulpwood, of course, that has been stockpiled at the E&R Langille yard in the Strait area; and some of it is biomass or fuelwood.

 

I do have the amounts of pulpwood: approximately 16,000 tons are stored in the yard at E&R Langille's at the present time, and there's about 20,000 tons of fuelwood or biomass that's also stored there for when the biomass plant is up and running and ready to operate. So it has been distributed to mills that use the product and some of it has been stockpiled for future use. The total is 140,000 that have been harvested.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Thank you. Of the amount that has been put aside as pulp fibre, considering that we hear - nobody knows for sure - that the mill probably won't start until September or later, as was made public by the proposed buyer, that 16,000 tons that you talked about that could be pulpwood, if we wait until September, the moisture will be gone out of a lot of that wood and I would think that it would be a good-quality product. I want to know if, indeed, that has been taken into consideration when this calculation was made.

 

MR. PARKER: Well, of course, when the mill went into receivership last September, there was a lot of uncertainty, a lot of anxiety in the community, and certainly the workers were most directly impacted - and their families, of course. But not knowing the time frame, how long it would take, we all hoped it would be done as soon as possible, and maybe it would have been open by Christmas; maybe it would be open by March. You're correct now, it looks like it could be September before every aspect of the transaction comes together, whether it's around power rates or Crown fibre, or the labour negotiations that have just recently come to a conclusion. So things are starting to come together but it's still going to take some time, especially with the need for a URB hearing on the power or the energy component.

 

So you're correct, the pulpwood has been stored. As I mentioned, it was 16,000 tons in E&R Langille's yard in storage and over time, you're right, wood dries out and loses moisture content and may not be suitable, so plans have been made now to sell that pulpwood that has been in the storage yard. Of course, it hasn't been taking wood over the last couple of months or so, when the roads were closed, but that's now changing and again, there will be harvesting operations.

 

So that pulpwood that's in storage will be sold, most likely to Northern Pulp, as being the closest pulp mill to the area. I guess that's the information you were looking for, was it?

 

MR. MACLEOD: I thank you for that but that creates, in my mind, another problem, because all of a sudden now we have fibre contractors and Crown contractors out there, the roads are open, they're back in the woods trying to produce wood, and they're going to have 16,000 tons of pulp on the market. Northern Pulp will come along and buy it, or whoever, and all of a sudden they have a lot of fibre that they're going to be able to use, which in turn will allow them - theoretically, at least - to drop their price, because they won't want to pay as much for the stuff they're getting from the contractors because they're going to get that. Again, one would have to ask what kind of a price the province would be able to achieve if they sell it to one buyer.

 

The final part of that question is, of course, who benefits when that dollar value comes back, where does the money go? Does it go back into the seven-point plan, does it go into general coffers, or does it go into the budget of the Department of Natural Resources? I know that's not happening.

 

I just wonder, we create a point where there's a lot of fibre on the market then. As you pointed out, Mr. Minister, the roads are opening so people are trying to get back in and on the job. The quantity and the value of that wood, what is it going to do to the market conditions when the contractor who lives in Marion Bridge, who has two guys working for him, he's wondering how in the world am I going to compete against the Province of Nova Scotia selling pulp to Northern Pulp?

 

MR. PARKER: Certainly the whole situation with both Bowater - or Resolute as it's now known - and NewPage, these are unexpected, unfortunate circumstances that came our way. Even when we released our Natural Resources Strategy, I think it was six days earlier than the announcement with NewPage. We knew there were challenges in the industry but it came unexpectedly to us and, you know, the idea of competition is good. Usually when there are two or three or four buyers wanting a used car or a piece of furniture, then the price will go up. That's the nature of commerce and it's good to have that.

 

When you only have one buyer, that creates challenges, I fully agree, and certainly we're all hopeful that the Stern Group and Nova Scotia Power and our government and the labour union can all reach some agreement that will allow Stern to operate that mill successfully and profitably for decades to come. That will be a benefit to the workers and their families, to the community and to woodlot owners and contractors and everyone involved here in the forest industry.

 

But competition is good. So the sooner this transaction can be completed and they're on the market, they're competing for private wood, then that will be a benefit certainly, I think, to woodlot owners who have two sources or more to sell their wood. Not only that, because the forest industry is integrated and sawmills depend on pulp mills and pulp mills depend on sawmills for an inter-supply or exchange of chips or fibre, you know, that will help more sawmills be open and more opportunity, more avenues for private woodlot owners to sell products other than pulpwood.

 

Yes, you're right, it creates some challenges when we only have one buyer of the product, although this pulp was not offered just to the one buyer, we put it out to other interested - to other major producers. Resolute had an opportunity, they looked at the wood and decided, you know, the cost of trucking and what it would require. The Irving Group was contacted and they certainly had a look at the stockpile. But the best offer of the three came from Northern and, maybe again, trucking costs would be to their advantage because they're the closest of the three to the site.

 

We do realize that the wood is aging and it needs to be used, so that's why it's being put out for sale at this time, and if new wood comes along, we're very hopeful it will still be available to the new operator of the pulp mill by September. But it's wood that has been harvested through the seven-point plan and it will help reduce the costs of that plan because it's income, it's revenue coming to the province to offset some of the other parts of the plan that are being implemented. So I hope I've been able to answer your question in that regard.

 

It's a necessary thing at this time that, you know, we sell that wood. But it has been done through working with three major buyers and the best price is coming from Northern Pulp.

 

MR. MACLEOD: I don't doubt your sincerity in what you're saying. As a matter of fact, I understand that if we let the wood sit there, it's not going to be a good product. You said that competition is a good thing and you're right, but not if it's your own government that's the competition. If you're putting 16,000 tons of pulpwood in the market in an area where trucking is a concern - and we've seen the prices at Northern drop a couple of times since this whole issue began.

 

What it sounds like to me - and I would be the first one to say that I hope I'm wrong - it sounds like what we've done is transferred the problem that we had last Fall to a problem this Spring because now we have 16,000 tons of wood that's going to go to this mill, that's going to lessen their demand for it from the private contractors and the other contractors that are out there. So you bought it, you stored it, and now you're selling it. There is only so much fibre that can be used by Northern Pulp, regardless of what they're doing.

 

So if you can, please tell me I'm wrong that the Government of Nova Scotia is not going to be in competition with the private wood contractors across this province, especially in our end of Nova Scotia where there's a challenge and a lot of problems at this point.

 

MR. PARKER: We're in challenging times, not just in this particular situation but in the forest industry in general. Many of our pulp mills across the country, forest-based industries have gone out of business. We have had three major pulp mills here in this province for quite some time and we're doing our best to support the industry and not lose a major community-based company that would be devastating to the local economy.

 

So our plan was to keep contractors employed, keep truckers busy, keep silvicultural workers employed in our forests that help those industries - it helped the private woodlot owners to still be able to have a source to sell their product. That initiative, the Forestry Infrastructure Fund, has been of benefit to many of the supply chain - I guess you would call it - to the mill, even though the mill wasn't operating. But the forest side of it was still healthy and active, and then again through the monitoring process a number of the claims were paid in that short three-week window when there was so much activity occurring.

 

We've kept the industry alive. We've kept the mill on hot idle so it would be ready to go for a new operator. The supply that's coming on the market now in many ways is replacing the imported fibre that's coming in from outside our province, so now they don't need to do that. Northern Pulp, and NewPage in particular were buying wood from other provinces: Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, Quebec, and even occasionally Newfoundland and Labrador.

 

In many ways this wood, while it's coming on the market over the next two weeks or so, that means they don't have to buy wood from outside of Nova Scotia. That's reducing the supply and it's good for Nova Scotia. It's a good Nova Scotia product, it's keeping contractors and workers in the woodlots, it's keeping the truckers busy hauling the product, so I think at least 10 per cent of the fibre for some of these mills were coming from outside of Nova Scotia. That will now not have to occur.

 

It's not immediately all coming the same day, it's going to come over time. It will be trucked to Abercrombie. But trying to find that balance, absolutely, we need to support the private woodlot owner, we need to make sure there's not a glut on the market all at once, and again we're trying to find that balance between keeping the industry alive, keeping the supply chain going, but also cognizant of the fact that there can't be too much wood coming on the market at too low a price in order to help support the private woodlot owners.

 

We know the future of this industry lies with private woodlot owners. If we can have policies and programs in place that will support them, then that in turn will help industry have an available source of wood. Like I said, it's a balancing act between the two.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Thank you for your answer. So you're convinced when this wood goes on the market and is sold to Northern, it will not have an impact on the private contractors whose lives depend on their ability to produce and sell wood at a reasonable price? You're convinced that this wood that's already bought and paid for won't have an effect on them?

 

MR. PARKER: Well, there are no guarantees in life but we know the importance of finding that balance between the Crown land wood and private wood. We put this Forestry Infrastructure Fund in place to try to find a way to keep contractors active so they don't lose their employees, whether they go to Alberta or out West, or go out of business altogether - again, so that supply chain is still there and those contractors are still here.

 

If the mill had closed and we did nothing, then most of them would have been out of business completely and there wouldn't be any opportunity for a new operator to come in and say even if they had an arrangement with the labour union and on energy and even on fibre access, there is nobody to work in the woods or to provide - if they sold their machines or they're no longer there, the mills don't own the contracting or they don't own the machines and they're depending on all private contractors. I think it's important to keep that supply chain going. I'm sorry you were asking a question, go ahead.

 

MR. MACLEOD: I say the question was will that have an effect on - all the things you're saying are right, we need to keep the industry alive and we need to do those things. We don't need to be the ones that are now taking wood that we've already paid for and then reselling it and creating an issue so that instead of them not being able to produce wood in the Fall, they can't produce it in the Spring. I just think it's something that you have to take into consideration. I understand the challenges because we don't want to have 30,000 tons of biomass sitting there on the ground either, and I understand that.

 

Maybe we'll leave that alone for now - one other question. There was extra money put into the seven-point plan recently because of the extended time frame. Is any of that money allocated to training for the ones that didn't qualify for training prior to year end? I've had a number of people in my constituency come to me and say they couldn't get any training done and they're wondering if this new money would create any training opportunities for them.

 

MR. PARKER: Again, the money that was in the seven-point plan for training, there was good uptake. I think I mentioned earlier the number of contractors there that were involved. As I mentioned, I had an opportunity to go out into the woodlots and see first-hand what that training looked like and it was very enthusiastically taken up in Moose River in Pictou County, and Caledonia in Guysborough County. They were active on the ground, contractors with the same machines that they had previously but using new techniques.

 

It was well received and they were pleased to get the three-week training course, some of it in the classroom but most of it right on the ground in the woodlot. They welcomed it, and the time I was there they said we like it, we want more, we need to learn this new technique, we know that the rules around whole-tree harvesting and clear-cutting, and so on, are changing, and they were enthusiastically welcoming it.

We have additional money now, as the Premier announced on March 16^th; some of that is for silviculture work, some of it's for harvesting, but some of it's for training. There has been interest from around the province, in western Nova Scotia and elsewhere that would like to be able to take advantage of this new training, so it's certainly something we're very much looking at within the department.

 

MR. MACLEOD: That's good news, and I'll be happy to take that back home to Cape Breton West and tell some of the people there. Is there an individual in the department that they should be in touch with so they can get their name on a list or get ready to - in case the program comes into place, they want to be identified and know who to call, and maybe later on if you could just provide me with a name and contact information, that would be great. Again, I thank you for that.

 

MR. PARKER: Briefly then, the person that has been responsible for this program from the start, and has done a great job, is Julie Towers in our sustainable branch. Julie could certainly give you any and all information there that you would require. You know Julie back here? Okay, so that's your contact.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Thank you very much. If we could maybe change gears again, there was quite a bit of discussion with the last member about strip mining, open-face pit mining. Recently the moratorium, for lack of a better term - I mean, if I don't have the right term, I apologize - on open-pit mining has come to an end, I think on March 31^st, and at that time there were about 12 licences that may have been looked at before. I guess the question is, where are we now with the potential of more open-pit mining, and is the reason that we're doing open-pit mining to recover the land or is it because we need the coal?

 

I know we've had a number of reclamation projects done on Cape Breton Island where the Cape Breton Development Corporation, the former Devco, had a bunch of different mines that they had been responsible for, and they did a bunch of remediation projects in a number of areas throughout Cape Breton County. So I'm just wondering, the areas that were potentially licensee areas, are they still licensee areas and what is the purpose behind that - is it coal or is it reclamation?

 

MR. PARKER: Certainly we had some discussions with the previous member on this but over the past three years - and actually the past six years because it was extended three years ago, the final report on that, I guess the Reclamation Enhancement Initiative, it is complete as of the end of March but we haven't made a decision yet, you know, whether the moratorium would be lifted or not. So we're studying that report, we're looking at it. I expect that probably within the month we'll make a decision on which way to go, but the moratorium has not been lifted. So it's still very much there, but certainly a lot of valuable information has been gathered from the university researchers and others that were working on this project.

 

As I mentioned earlier, one of the findings is that it probably is possible to restore some of this land back to an Acadian forest cover that was there, you know, for thousands of years before this, and there seems to be some pretty good indication from some of the trials that have been used in the reclaiming that that could happen. But at this point no decisions have been made on the lifting of the moratorium, or until we finalize what was in the study and make our informed decision based on that.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Thank you for that answer, I appreciate that very much. One of the areas that had been highlighted in past times was in the Port Morien area, right in the Village of Port Morien itself. The former minister who is now the Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations had said that in settings such as this there would be no strip mining in Port Morien. So I guess I would like to ask you the same question. Will there be strip mining in the Village of Port Morien?

 

In fairness to the minister, if he wants to research that and get back to me at a later date, I can appreciate that but we're talking about doing it right inside a community and I think it just shouldn't be in the cards, and it wasn't as I recall from your former minister. There was a different deputy at that time as well.

 

MR. PARKER: I appreciate the concern that you're showing. I'm not familiar with the particular site but I can certainly appreciate the concern of communities that, you know, having an industrial type of activity right within their village or town, I guess, or very close to homes and, as I said, the moratorium has not been lifted here in Cape Breton, and again we need to further study the enhancement initiative that was undertaken. I'm not familiar, I guess, with what the previous minister had said but I will certainly take this under advisement and have a look at it. I can probably get back to you but, again, the moratorium has not been lifted. No additional surface coal mines will be approved as long as that moratorium is there.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Thank you for that answer, minister. We're going to shift gears again, and again I would like to talk to you a little bit about the Two Rivers Wildlife Park. Again, I want to compliment Harold Carroll. He has been working with the group that's there and he has been helping them to try to find a way to make it more sustainable. The minister may not be aware but in 1995 the government of the day decided they were going to get away from the wildlife parks other than the one in Shubenacadie. There was one down in the Valley around Annapolis Royal and the one in Cape Breton.

 

This location where the Two Rivers Wildlife Park is, it's an area that was made kind of famous by a fellow by the name of Allister MacGillivray. He wrote the song Out on the Mira because the first thing that ever took place on that site before there was a wildlife park was an international Girl Guide camp and Allister MacGillivray wrote the song Out on the Mira, which has become quite famous, for that Girl Guide camp. Also, in the days of Louisbourg, when Louisbourg was a thriving fortress, it was also a place where the French would cross the river so they could get to other parts of Cape Breton Island. So the site of the Two Rivers Wildlife Park has been one that has played a major role in our community for a long time.

 

Just on a personal level, I guess, my daughter got married there and my grandchildren love to go there all the time. We all have family passes and I served on the board there for a number of years. The park last year saw 42,000 visitors, and to put that into context, the Fortress of Louisbourg only saw about 74,000 visitors. It employs 10 people full-time, year-round and there are animals there similar to any that you would see in Shubenacadie, and it is a site that people go to enjoy the outdoors and see these animals. There have been family picnics and, as I said, weddings and other things that take place there.

 

Over the last few years, and this year would be their last year as I understand it, they've been getting an $80,000 grant for operational purposes. I know there has been a letter sent to the minister to see if they could get that extended for another two to three years because they are working with Harold Carroll, as I mentioned, about full-time camping and other things.

 

Part of what I'm trying to do here is to encourage you, of course, to look at that very seriously because I think if you look at it and you take into consideration the fact that the animals do belong to the Province of Nova Scotia, so if you have to move them, there's a cost to that; the buildings there belong to the Province of Nova Scotia, so if you have to maintain them, there's a cost to that; and when you have 10 jobs in a rural area and the entertainment and restfulness that it supplies to the community, I guess it's very important. As I say, Harold has been working with us as a group to try to find ways, and one way is in this camping for RVs and whatnot, to be able to make it more self-sufficient.

 

As a matter of fact, I remember when your caucus was in Cape Breton, you agreed to come out and have a visit of the park and had an opportunity to see it first-hand, and I really did appreciate that as did the members of the board there. We all know that budgets are tight, I understand that, but the request is there and I would encourage the minister to look at that as best he can, and maybe if there are any ideas that you would want to share with the board of directors as to how they could do other things to make this more viable or more self-sustaining, because I think it's viable, I put that to you as sort of a statement and a question, I guess, as to where your head might be.

 

MR. PARKER: Mr. Chairman, I can certainly tell the honourable member is very passionate about the Two Rivers Wildlife Park, and it is a wonderful facility. I think it was in February of last year that we had the opportunity to visit there, and I remember it was a nice winter day and I had a chance to see a number of the animals that were in the park. I was actually surprised at the size of the facility and the usage that it gets. I think you told me that it probably gets more visitors than the Fortress Louisbourg. I heard that somewhere - maybe it wasn't you, but somebody had mentioned that. You said 42,000 visitors and that's huge, really, as far as a park goes.

 

I appreciate the background and the history just now that told me a little bit about the park. I thought maybe you were going to break out into song with Out on the Mira, but maybe another time we can do that.

MR. MACLEOD: Quite honestly, I would like you to fund them. I don't want to scare you away, so I'm not going to break out into song. There was another fellow who used to do that.

 

MR. PARKER: I do know that it's a wonderful facility. It's a great park and I know we worked on trying to find some funding there last year, again with Harold Carroll, on the campground. I believe that's a good initiative and it was good to see the potential that's there.

 

I think this is actually the last year of the three-year funding so you've got this $80,000 that's secure for this year, so I guess you're sort of - we're all looking and wondering what's going to happen for next year. As you know, I mentioned earlier, we have our parks review and the public consultation. I would certainly encourage the board of directors and yourself, and anybody interested in this park or any park, to participate in the review process and bring your suggestions and your ideas forward as we engage the public and come up with a plan that will serve our province for many years to come.

 

I certainly know the value of that park. It is unique in Cape Breton, and as you mentioned, we have a wildlife park here on the mainland in Shubenacadie. Not so now in the Annapolis Valley, although I believe there is a private park there near Kingston that has some - it's a zoo, perhaps, more than a wildlife park. Anyway, I'll take your comments under consideration. I certainly know the value of that park to Cape Breton in particular, and it's well used by a great number of visitors. Again, I encourage participation in the parks review, but I'll certainly keep it in mind and see what's feasible to keep that as a sustainable park for years to come.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Thank you for that answer. It wouldn't be fair if I didn't mention that it was you that brought Harold Carroll to the table and had him look at the plans. I know the board of directors and I, myself, appreciate that because it is a great facility for a lot of people. You can go there for a day, not have a whole lot of money and the family can have a heck of a good time. It is something that serves the area and it also creates 10 jobs in a very rural community, which is - as you would know coming from a rural community yourself - also very important.

 

Just in the last couple of days we heard about a major forest fire in Inverness. Sadly, somebody has lost their home, but nobody has lost their life, so that's a good thing, that's a plus thing. We used to have a standby crew at all times of the year at Shubenacadie that were there to come to incidents like this. They used the helicopters, and now that program has stopped and the positions have been reallocated, as I understand it, to different DNR offices near Shubenacadie. I'm just wondering about the logic and the reasons behind that move of dismantling that crew of people.

 

MR. PARKER: Certainly the fire protection of our woodlands is very important and we know sometimes that fires get out of control and can burn private dwellings or property. Actually, last year was maybe an exceptional year in that it was damp and wet and we had very few fires in comparison to some years. But we remember the devastating fires from 2008 on the Dartmouth side of the harbour, and of course in 2009 in Spryfield, that did a lot of harm and a lot of damage. Fortunately nobody lost their lives, but we lost a tremendous amount of property and valuable homes. You referenced the fire in Broad Cove in Inverness County in the last couple of days, and unfortunately one home was lost there.

 

Fire protection is very important and DNR has a responsibility, if it's a brush fire or wood fire, to protect those lands. We're also very fortunate, we have many well-trained and dedicated rural volunteer fire departments that are on call and respond to instances as they occur. I know this past weekend in my neck of the woods in Pictou County, I was talking to a gentleman this morning with the Caribou District Fire Department who said they had 17 calls this past weekend. Thankfully for mutual aid, I guess, they can help and work together on some of those. There were a couple of evacuations as a result of some of those fires, but no property loss there unlike the one in Inverness County.

 

Actually I have the statistics here. This year to date, up until April 15^th, we've had 90 fires in the province and 157 hectares were burned. That compares to last year at this time: we had about 67 fires and 121 hectares. So you can see it's up this year and it's partly because of the dry weather and it seems like it has been Yarmouth and Shelburne Counties, and Cape Breton in particular, where most of the fires have occurred. But really the province is rather tinder dry right now; the forecast this weekend, I think, is calling for rain and I guess that would be welcome to help bring down the fire index.

 

You mentioned the crew that were trained, based in Shubenacadie - that was the Helitack unit - and there were five members there that were on that crew. It was established back in 1981, it was to be a first response or a quick attack crew that would go anywhere in the province. The helicopter would immediately take them to Inverness or Yarmouth or wherever the fire might be, and they would get in there as a first responder and attack the fire at its source as quickly as possible.

 

I guess over time as we've trained more firefighters within the Department of Natural Resources out of our depots around the province, as well as the valuable help of the volunteer fire departments, oftentimes we now find that they are the first on the ground. They're there as quick or quicker than the Helitack crew would be. In fact, last year the Helitack crew was not called out once to a fire here in Nova Scotia. They were a valuable source in other parts of Canada that called for our help, and they responded in Alberta and Ontario to help some of the real major disasters they had in those provinces.

 

I guess after 30 years there has been less and less use over time and the improvement in the service on the ground by DNR staff and by volunteer fire departments, the decision was made that these folks would go into the regular DNR firefighting service and that's where they've gone. So we're relying on stronger DNR firefighting units around the province as well as stronger volunteer fire departments.

 

I should point out that the helicopter service is fully still there. It's called Helitack but it's a misnomer in that it's only those five gentlemen that worked on that crew that have been reassigned within the department's firefighting service. But all of our helicopters are still available for water bombing or for other emergency services as required. Hopefully that answered some of your question.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacLeod, a little less than 10 minutes remaining in your time.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Thank you. Well, if that's the case, we only have 10 more minutes and I know you're enjoying it, but we'll have to maybe change gears one more time. In your opening comments you had talked about mineral commodities and one of the ones you mentioned in your discussion at that time was the Donkin coal mine, which was also mentioned in the Speech from the Throne this year.

 

I don't know if the minister knew this, but I have actually worked underground in a mining environment and the resource that we do have in Donkin, I actually worked in the lab when the analysis was done on that coal so I have a reasonably good knowledge of it - although dated, I might add. I guess one of the things that you and I have talked about when you've had a different hat on, about coal and the reason that it should be used in Nova Scotia instead of bringing coal in from somewhere, I was just wondering where the Province of Nova Scotia sees itself in seeing this project go forward and help to create more employment from a natural resources point of view.

 

MR. PARKER: Certainly I did reference this in my opening remarks and we've talked about it before at considerable length. The Donkin project is one of the main mining projects that are on the drawing board, that we fully support, and that we know has tremendous value for economic development opportunities in Cape Breton. I think it's something like 350 full-time, good-paying jobs could be created there and the spinoff, of course, is probably more than that, right down to the local restaurant or service station and trucking jobs and so on, so there's huge economic potential there.

 

I guess with my hat on as Energy Minister, we know that we're trying to reduce our total dependence on coal but we also realize that coal will be with us as an energy source for decades to come . . .

 

MR. MACLEOD: I've heard that before.

 

MR. PARKER: . . . and while we'll get 40 per cent renewables by 2020, even then coal will still probably make up 35 per cent of our energy needs. So at the present time, as you know, other than the two surface mines that we have in Point Aconi and Stellarton, all of our coal comes from offshore - the United States, the southern U.S., and South America - so the prospects of using Donkin coal is very enticing.

 

It has some challenges, as you know, with mercury content and sulphur and so on. But I know the discussions have been held between the developers of this mine and Nova Scotia Power, and technology is always changing, always available to make for cleaner coal; sometimes by washing it, it can help reduce the sulphur content. That's not true for reducing mercury but technology is always developing and there may be ways for new scrubbers or new technology at power plants that can help us use this.

 

The idea is right, it's just a matter of meeting the environmental requirements. The federal government has laid out new environmental rules that we have to live by, and provincially as well. But the idea of using local coal, since we're going to be using coal anyway, makes sense. It's just a matter of meeting the environmental requirements to allow that to happen.

 

MR. MACLEOD: I want to thank the minister for his answer as well. There's no question that I would love to go on on this, but unfortunately yesterday I couldn't come to do the Energy part of things so I'll just have to leave it alone.

 

I think the bigger thing that we all should realize, though, is that it has the ability for Donkin to be a strong economic driver for the Province of Nova Scotia. It would have an impact on the whole province. The jobs could be up to 1,000 by the time things are said and done. There are other benefits and someday, maybe when we're both wearing different hats, we'll be able to chat about them. I actually am going to a meeting next week in Donkin, and they're going to talk about how they're going to transfer the coal from the site and other things.

 

There are ways that we as a province should be looking at encouraging them to use rail, to make sure that we take full advantage of the money that was invested by the province to deal with the harbour in Sydney, but not only that, to put more coal over the rails, moving it from Sydney to maybe Point Tupper and Trenton and Belldoon, and then giving an opportunity for the province not to have to be investing money in the rail line because it should become more self-sustainable. So there are some thoughts there that I would love to share with you; I think it's an important issue and it's one that I think would be good to talk about a little more.

 

Mr. Chairman, about how much . . .

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have three minutes remaining.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Oh, I can't even clear my throat in three minutes. (Laughter) My honourable colleague, if you would identify him, Mr. Chairman.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, go ahead, Mr. MacLeod. Oh, I'm sorry, you're not going to use your throat-clearing three minutes?

 

MR. MACLEOD: No, I'm going to save you all from that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Dartmouth East.

 

MR. ANDREW YOUNGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just speaking with my colleague, since I think he has probably 15 or 20 minutes of stuff there, I will cede my first 15 or 20 minutes to my honourable colleague because I'm feeling like a nice guy.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: There will be another opportunity for the Progressive Conservative caucus after you as well. So I was going to suggest that we take a break after this hour but if the minister is okay, we'll keep going.

 

MR. PARKER: Why don't we take a five-minute break and then we'll come back.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Could we do that - is there agreement for that, a five-minute break? We have gone exactly two hours and 35 minutes, so we have an hour and 25 minutes remaining.

 

[5:02 p.m. The subcommittee recessed.]

 

[5:11 p.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I call the Subcommittee on Supply back to order.

 

The honourable member for Cape Breton West, you have the floor.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the honourable member for Dartmouth East for sharing his time with me today, I really appreciate that.

 

Now that we have more time, minister, maybe we will go back and talk a little bit more about Donkin mine and what role the Department of Natural Resources sees itself in as this project moves forward. Is there anything you would like to inform us and/or the community about, as to how things are progressing in that vein?

 

MR. PARKER: Certainly as we previously talked, the Donkin project is very important to the economy of Cape Breton with hundreds, if not 1,000 jobs in total, counting the direct and indirect spinoff jobs. The process - I guess maybe first of all I'll mention the partners there; certainly Xstrata is a world-class company with experience in coal mining. They are an Australian company and they own 75 per cent of the interest; a local company, Erdene Resource, is the 25 per cent minority shareholder in the project. They've gone through an environmental assessment process, that provincial assessment that has been approved. They also have their industrial permit from the Department of Environment, so you can check those two off.

 

The next step is the federal, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency. That process started last August and it should be complete by the second quarter of next year. That's an involved, detailed process, but well in hand. It's proceeding along, so the permitting or the environmental process is either partially approved or in progress at this time.

 

We're excited, it's a good project, it's a needed project economically, and as I mentioned earlier, it has the potential to provide a replacement for imported coal if the environmental standards can be met.

 

MR. MACLEOD: I wonder, reports from the proponents of this project say they are hoping to produce around four million tons of coal a year, all things going as they hope. Some of it will be coking coal and some of it will be a thermal-generation coal.

 

I'm just wondering, what royalty would the province get on a ton of coal that was produced from this operation?

 

MR. PARKER: Certainly the potential for economic impact to the province is very important, the jobs and income tax and corporate tax, and so on, that would be paid. Royalties are always important as well. Per ton, there is a royalty rate; I believe it is somewhere around 26 cents a ton - is it? My staff is going to double-check on that. I believe that had been the royalty rate recently, 26 cents per metric tonne, but let us double-check on that and it's a matter of multiplying - if the rate is four million tons, we could determine what the royalty might be.

 

MR. MACLEOD: And the minister is right, the royalties are a small part of what the economic impact would be. But by the same token, it is a resource that we own as a province and if we can do that, we can see that the property values should go up and the numbers of people employed should be increased, so there are a number of benefits. Again, as we talked earlier with your other hat about the quality of the coal, somebody in this province has to take Nova Scotia Power to task and ask them what it's costing them right now to remove mercury from the coal they're importing and what the variance is between the coal that we have coming out of the ground here and, indeed, if the economic benefit for the Province of Nova Scotia is to use our own coal, and I think the quick and simple answer to that is yes.

 

Anyway, that's more a statement than it is a question, but it's something I really think that we as a province need to do because it is more important for us to be able to be self-sufficient in our energy and the initiatives that are being taken towards green energy are part of that, but also whatever we can do to have our supply based at home because when this whole thing of burning coal started in Nova Scotia, it was because of the oil crisis that we had in the world. People looked at what we had as a resource here in Nova Scotia so that we weren't reliant on fluctuations and, gosh knows, we've seen enough fluctuations in our power rates. I know that's not Natural Resources stuff but by the same token, as a Minister of the Crown, it is an area that I'm sure - and not only sure but know - is of interest to you. So I'll say that.

 

MR. PARKER: Well, I believe it was a comment, maybe more so than a question, but I agree it would be great to be able to find a way that's environmentally acceptable to use those millions of tons of coal. It's the largest resource of coal that's left in our province, you know, I think I mentioned in my opening remarks it has the potential to double our mineral production in this province and it's a resource that our province has been blessed with. If we can find a way to economically produce that product and another way, I guess, that it can be used that meets the environmental regulations, then it makes every sense economically and environmentally. So I agree with the member, it's a good resource for Nova Scotia and we hope that it can be utilized here.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Mr. Minister, you talked in your introductory remarks about the parks strategy and what you would like to see done with the parks and where we're going. You named a number of parks; I think it was 174, was it? It was a large number, more than I was actually aware of. I know in the constituency of Cape Breton West that there are two parks; one is located in the Ben Eoin area and one on the Mira River. Recently there has been substantial investment in the park at Mira River and you had talked about the "Friends of" being an organization that has been used and they're looking at doing something in your own area.

 

I have had an opportunity to work with some of the people in the Friends of the Mira Park Society, and I'm just wondering if any consideration has ever been given to the length of the season for parks like the Mira Park, because when it comes to tenting and camping, there are very few venues, and in the Fall of the year we have the Celtic Colours which brings people from all over and sometimes they come by RV and trailer and they have difficulty finding them a place to stay. So I'm just wondering if there was any consideration about the shoulder season for the parks to help as an economic generator for the area, because not everybody likes to stay in hotels when they travel.

 

MR. PARKER: Mr. Chairman, certainly our parks are a valuable resource that we have here in our province. People love their parks. If you're from the Mira or from Ben Eoin, or in my case from Green Hill or Caribou, these are parks that are well used and we love. We've gone there with our families over the years and, you know, we get to know them very well and we know that many, many people in the local area use them, as well as visitors. You and I can be visitors when we travel to another part of the province, so we often end up at a picnic table or somewhere for lunch, which is often as good as or better than going to a restaurant somewhere - an outdoor picnic, or whatever.

 

The length of the season varies around the province. Some of them open in mid-May after the Victoria Day weekend, and some open in early June or as late as June 15^th, I believe. Others close early, right after the Labour Day weekend and some are closing much later, mid-October or so. That's something we constantly have under review: what is the right mix of season; is it an early start and early close, or an early start and a later close? We do vary and fluctuate that every year. There are changes in those schedules but you're right, it's becoming more and more common that the Fall is often becoming our best season. I guess sometimes we have very wet Springs and people are not in the mood, maybe, to go camping or picnicking. But we find our Fall is often glorious, the best weather of the season, and that's a fact that is taken into consideration when setting the length of the season for some of our camping parks and day-use parks.

 

There's obviously a cost to keep a park open. Every week there's an additional cost, but we try to work with the communities and try to see what works best in that neighbourhood or area of the province. Sometimes if there's a major festival or an event going on in September/October, it might be a good reason to extend it a little longer. It's a process that's constantly being looked at and the dates change from year to year, depending on the demand and depending on the community's interest.

 

Again, we work with the "Friends of" groups and some of them make recommendations to us. There are actually about 60 different "Friends of" groups now in the province and if there's a community interest in your area for that type of thing, certainly Harold Carroll would be the contact and who to work through. Those models are different for the different parks, and different services are provided by the "Friends of" group.

 

Anyway, the length of season is constantly under review and we do respond to community needs.

 

MR. MACLEOD: We're going to go into some more detailed questions related directly to the Budget Books that we've been supplied with. The first one is from the Estimates and Supplementary Detail and it's on Page 17.1.

 

I wonder if I could digress, I notice one of the staff members, Bill Smith, is here now and I know I said it before, but I just wanted to again say to Bill how much I appreciate him and Don Feldman and the work they're doing on the MV Miner and the Gabarus seawall. I told your minister that before you came, but I just wanted to take the opportunity to tell you that myself. It has made a significant impact in our communities and I am highly appreciative of what you and the minister, the department and all your staff, are doing.

 

MR. PARKER: I do appreciate your kind words.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Mr. Minister, in the forecast, the Department of Natural Resources will have overspent their budget by over $7 million in 2011-12. I'm pretty sure I know what the answer's going to be for this, but by the same token, I wonder if the minister could provide an explanation of this $7 million over expenditure.

 

MR. PARKER: You're probably right in your guess on why that is over and, you know, it's primarily because of the NewPage situation, the hot idle program, and the Forestry Infrastructure Fund. So some considerable additional money was put through the Department of Natural Resources, I guess, to deal with that crisis at the time and we're still working through that issue now, as we talked about. So that's the major portion of that. There's some additional money that was used for other things, as well as some money that was taken away, but we had some vacancies within the department. So that was a cost saving, I guess you might say, but Stora/NewPage, hot idle, and the Forestry Infrastructure Fund were the primary reasons for that increase.

 

MR. MACLEOD: On the same page, for the year 2012-13, the department is forecasting a budget of $95.6 million which is a decrease from $99.8 million - $99.8 million was spent in 2011-12 but it's still $2.8 million more than your original budget figure last year. Can you tell us why the extra money in this budget allocation at this time?

 

MR. PARKER: Mr. Chairman, the budget year to year is up a little over $3 million, I believe - or a little less than $3 million, sorry, it's $2.8 million or so - and certainly the hot idle costs are continuing to keep the mill ready for a new buyer, you know, and to protect the investment in that mill, protect the machinery, and not see them worn down or not being able to be used. So those are kept there, those are the major costs that increased our budget. I think about $5.8 million is included in our budget so there have been some decreases, too, to balance it off to $2.8 million. We had some major bridges in Annapolis County that had to be replaced - Moose River was one of them, I believe - and were dismantled or taken away because they weren't safe, they had to be removed off the old DAR line. So between the two - the hot idle and increased costs, and the bridge dismantling - would cover most of it, I would think.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Can you explain the function, the job description of the department's Corporate Services Unit - Page 17.2?

 

MR. PARKER: Mr. Chairman, certainly the Resources unit is an important part of our government structure. It includes Financial Services - Mr. Myers here is the director of that - and Information Technology as well. The Department of Natural Resources also does a lot of work for other departments around accounting, financial matters, and information technology, so while it appears that a line item of $4.4 million is the estimate for this coming year, a fair amount of that would be services that we provide to other departments of government.

 

MR. MACLEOD: If you provide those services, are they charged back to the other departments or does your department pick it up because it's your line item? If you're doing the service for another department, shouldn't the money be allocated to that department and not in yours?

 

MR. PARKER: It's budgeted to this department so it's a cost to this department.

 

MR. MACLEOD: So if that's the case, then there's a $243,000 increase in that budget for 2012-13. Is that work that's being done for the Department of Natural Resources or is that work that's being done for other departments, and why in the world is your department being charged for doing work for other departments? Why wouldn't it be under their budget?

 

MR. PARKER: A number of years ago - I think 15 years ago or more - the government of the day made the decision to sort of amalgamate services like HR or IT into certain departments. Natural Resources was one that became a corporate services unit; there are units out there in other departments, but this one looks after several other departments within our budget. I think the question was why it was up. From our forecast, I think it's up about $250,000 from what the forecast has been in the previous years, so it's very close to what was actually spent in the previous year.

 

MR. MACLEOD: I see my colleague, the member for Dartmouth East is back so I'm going to change gears again. I don't want to get you too comfortable in any one spot, Mr. Minister.

 

I want to go back to our discussion about the wood that's being stored in Point Tupper. I believe you said there was something like 20,000 tons there for biomass and if I remember correctly, that biomass, is there a home for it? If there is, who is going to be paying for that biomass and what happens to the amount of dollars that the province would receive for that? I mean, the obvious would be that it would be going to the biomass project that's at the former NewPage mill. The question is, who will negotiate the amount of dollars that you would get in return for that and is it in line - it probably hasn't been negotiated, I don't know.

 

What I mean is there is a cost factor for producing that and having it sit there and go bad so it couldn't be used for pulp anymore. So what is the cost to the province for doing this biomass? Is there a cost?

 

MR. PARKER: Again, under the seven-point plan, it was decided that we would keep the contractors and the harvesters working to the best of our abilities. We think we've been successful in that because most of them are still active and still engaged in the forestry business. We talked earlier about the pulpwood and that is sold to our highest bid, but the biomass is hardwood, softwood - it's something like fuelwood, I suppose. It's similar in grade, but it could be diseased stems or crooked stems. If it's hardwood in particular, or even softwood, it's not available for higher uses.

 

The principle in our woodlands is always the highest and best use, so quality material goes to sawmills and hardwood mills and veneer logs and so on. Whereas the biomass is the leftovers, and there are 20,000 tons of that presently stored at the DNR Langille yard in Auld's Cove, I believe it is. Unlike pulpwood, if it dries out, that's actually a good thing because it has to be a dry product in order to use it as a biomass. So that's not a problem in that it has to be sold at this time. It's available and can be ready when the biomass plant opens.

 

As you know, there have been ongoing discussions between Nova Scotia Power and the Stern Group in trying to determine the best operation of that biomass facility. Nova Scotia Power owns it now since NewPage is no longer there, but they're certainly willing to work with the Stern Group to produce the steam that could be used in the pulp mill and produce electricity, so it has real potential as a power and heat source there. So the wood belongs to the province and when the time comes, we'll negotiate with the operator to get the best possible deal for the province.

 

MR. MACLEOD: So we don't know what we're going to be able to get for that so we could theoretically be subsidizing Nova Scotia Power when we sell this biomass to them because if you don't recover what it cost to put it in that yard, then the only entity that's going to benefit from that will be Nova Scotia Power because they're going to be using it to fire up their biomass plant, and then they're going to turn around and sell that electricity to Nova Scotians at what everybody seems to think is quite a high price. So are there no guarantees that the Province of Nova Scotia is not going to get back the money that they invested in the biomass?

 

MR. PARKER: Mr. Chairman, I'm sure that we know the cost of the production. We know what it cost to put it there in the yard and I have faith that our department will negotiate the very best deal that's possible to sell that, you know, I assume to Nova Scotia Power. We'll wait and see, but I think the process of negotiation will hopefully get the best possible price for that wood.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Well, minister, I'm going to get a little cranky now. It took a while to get there, but the reality is you're going to negotiate the best price but if you only have one buyer, then the best price is whatever they'll give you for it. You told us earlier today that you could not sell pulpwood to anyone but Northern, as nobody else wanted to come forward because of the costs of trucking it. So if that's the case, biomass - 20,000 tons of biomass - is not going to be something that you're going to be able to - like that would be an awful lot of firepits before you get there. So, in turn, it only leads me to believe that Nova Scotia Power is going to get this and we, the Province of Nova Scotia, will be subsidizing the biomass that goes into the energy generation at that plant, and that doesn't seem right to me.

 

MR. PARKER: Well, Mr. Chairman, as we did with the pulpwood, you know, we contacted different interested parties - I think it was Irving, Northern, and Resolute - and the best offer came from Northern. So we got the best possible price for the product that was stored and I'm sure we'll do the same on this. You know, there's no guarantee that all of it or any of it will go to Nova Scotia Power. Again, we'll be contacting interested purchasers and we'll get the best possible price for Nova Scotians for that product.

 

MR. MACLEOD: A yes or no answer - did you get from Northern Pulp the amount of dollars that it cost to produce the 16,000 tons of wood; is it cost-neutral or is the Province of Nova Scotia spending more money to produce the wood than they're going to recover? That's the question - yes or no.

 

MR. PARKER: Okay, I don't have a yes or no answer for you because I don't know what . . .

 

MR. MACLEOD: You got the best possible price, you must know.

 

MR. PARKER: I don't know what that price was but I will find out for you. I don't know what the sale price was on that particular product but we'll endeavour to get it for you.

 

The other benefit to this, of course, is that we kept contractors working, we've kept harvesters operating, and we kept truckers employed. That was the purpose, amongst others, of the Forestry Infrastructure Fund, to keep the supply chain going so that it would be available to a new buyer, if other circumstances prevail, and it looks promising that that will happen.

 

In addition to the net cost of those - we've already sold stud wood and logs and other products as they became available, and pulpwood will be sold in the next few weeks. So there has been a positive benefit to keeping the supply chain going and keeping people employed in Cape Breton and on the eastern mainland. Those jobs are valuable, they didn't have a need to go to Alberta or elsewhere for employment, and they've been able to stay right here at home and circulate that money in our own economy. That's a positive, that's a benefit.

 

I'll endeavour to get that price that the wood was sold to Northern for and I can let you know.

 

MR. MACLEOD: There is no question that it was important to keep the people working in the industry in Cape Breton and eastern Nova Scotia. Nobody would ever dispute that, I think it was a good plan. The question now is, you're going to put 20,000 tons of biomass on the market, you're going to put 16,000 tons of pulpwood on the market, and you honestly believe that that's not going to have an effect on the contractors who are out there trying to survive?

 

I hope I'm wrong but it almost sounds like okay, the pain was going to be last Fall, now we moved it to this Spring. If you flood the market with huge quantities of fibre, somebody has to suffer. I mean if we're going to get 16,000 tons from the Province of Nova Scotia, that's 16,000 tons less that they're going to buy from somewhere.

 

Now, some of their wood is imported and we know that, but at the end of the day I still question whether or not the Province of Nova Scotia is subsidizing biomass for whoever the purchaser is going to be. I can't help but wonder if we're subsidizing somebody to get the wood, and then that price to Northern, what effect is that going to have on me, as a private contractor, when I go to sell to Northern and they say, well, I just bought a bunch of wood for X number of dollars and you have to meet that price or I don't need you?

 

I think what the province intended to do was well meant and I think needed to happen but I don't want to see the good that was done be destroyed now by being - you had mentioned earlier in your comments about competition being important. Competition is great as long as you're not competing against your own government.

 

MR. PARKER: Certainly competition is good and I do appreciate your support for the initiative, the overall Forestry Infrastructure Fund. We think it has worked, it certainly worked to keep contractors and harvesters and roadworkers and truckers all employed, able to stay here and work in our own home province. The sooner we can get this transaction completed, the better - we will have competition, there will be at least two main pulp mills and there will be several sawmills that will be up and running, and that will provide some extra opportunity and extra competition, which is good. So the sooner we can complete this transaction, the better, from that point of view.

 

In the meantime, this is replacing imported wood that's coming from other provinces so the supply is no greater. There's not wood coming from Quebec or New Brunswick or wherever. Up until now, the wood that has been sold has all been sold at market prices; whether stud wood or long logs, it has all gone to other sawmills, like Irving and others, at the going rate. So I think around $3 million is coming into the fund that has come back from those sales. We'll continue to get the best possible price we can get for products that are sold in the future.

 

We're continuing to work with the structure that we have in place and we have a management committee, as you know, that has been set up here consisting of employees from the Department of Natural Resources, from the monitor, and from NewPage woodlands staff. It's a team effort, and again the goal is to keep the supply chain going and to keep the hot idle for the mill to be ready for the new buyer. Market prices have been achieved so far and we'll get the best possible price on any future sales.

 

MR. MACLEOD: I thank the minister and his staff for the answers and the discussion we had today. I will be interested in seeing the numbers of what we got, what we will be getting for that fibre, and what the market value is as well. It's not just good enough to get the price and what we're getting for it, we need to know what the market value for it is as well. Hopefully when it comes to our biomass we will not be subsidizing Nova Scotia Power, because I think they've gotten enough of Nova Scotians' money.

 

I want to thank my colleague, the member for Dartmouth East for allowing me to continue on with the questioning, and I'm going to turn it back over to him at this point. Thank you.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'd like to point out that the Liberal caucus actually gave you 37 of its 60 minutes. So you have 23 minutes remaining; you're sharing just like a social democrat.

 

The honourable member for Dartmouth East.

 

MR. ANDREW YOUNGER: Mr. Chairman, there has to be some social democrats in the House since the NDP aren't social democrats anymore. They're more conservative than the Progressive Conservatives were when they were in power. It's amazing - all right, moving on.

 

I want to ask you - since you had Page 17.1 of the Estimates and Supplementary Detail out there for my honourable colleague, let's go to Page 17.7. I think I understood this as a partial answer, and I may have read between the lines and understood the answer to this but I want to make sure. Publications and Communications, and Graphics and Mapping Service are going to zero this year, and they're ceasing to exist as line items. I'm interested to know why that is.

 

MR. PARKER: You're right, Graphics and Mapping Service, and Publications and Communications, my understanding is they have been moved into other parts of our department so maybe - there are four lines above it there - Administration, Planning, Administrative Support Services, and Information Management - and my understanding is they have been moved to other parts of the department. They're still there, it's just that they're under a different name.

 

MR. YOUNGER: Is there a reason why the department has decided to not split those costs out anymore?

 

MR. PARKER: I guess it's just part of our reorganization to try to be more efficient. That's the only answer I can give you.

 

MR. YOUNGER: I appreciate that. We can have a philosophical debate about that but it doesn't really - I mean the costs are still there as they're in other parts of the department. My own preference - and it just might be my background - I prefer more detail, which allows it to be broken out. I guess now it will - the total is pretty much the same and I understand that. You're into about a little more than $4.5 million; from my perspective it's always better to have a sense of where the money is going but I guess we will see that in the detailed estimates at the end of the year.

 

I want to talk about off-highway vehicles. How many people do you have dedicated to enforcing off-highway vehicle rules? (Interruption) Sorry, Mr. Chairman, I'll just clarify - I do understand that some of the enforcement would obviously be by police and RCMP, which would not be your department, but I assume that you have some people dedicated to that.

 

MR. PARKER: Mr. Chairman, I don't have that right here in front of me, but as I recall, we've had a discussion on this before and the conservation officers around the province - I think there are around 60 of them - have responsibilities for a number of things, you know, whether enforcing the Wildlife Act or hunting regulations, but in addition to that their duties include enforcement under the Off-highway Vehicles Act. There had been a dedicated enforcement team of about 12 officers, I think initially, back in 2005, and that was their sole responsibility. But as time went by the conservation officers took on more and more duties, including off-highway vehicle enforcement, and they have been trained to take on those extra responsibilities.

 

So the service is actually better now; instead of just 12 dedicated officers, we have about 60 now that have responsibilities, and they can cover more territory and be available province-wide to enforce the rules. So it has been integrated into all duties, whether it's off-highway vehicle or hunting violations or wildlife enforcement and so on. So I guess it's a team effort now and we feel it's working better than the previous system; instead of 12 officers available, now we have about 60 that can enforce these regulations.

 

MR. YOUNGER: Can you tell me how many fines would have been issued for off-highway vehicle violations by those 60 officers in the past year?

 

MR. PARKER: Perhaps you could repeat the question; I didn't catch the first part.

 

MR. YOUNGER: I was wondering if it's possible to find out how many fines or citations, I guess, for infractions of off-highway vehicle use would have been issued in the last year.

 

MR. PARKER: I'll endeavour to undertake to get that for you. I don't know right off the top of my head for sure, but we'll dig out that information for you.

 

MR. YOUNGER: That's fine, minister, I appreciate you getting that information. In terms of off-highway vehicle rules, I think we all understand regardless of how we feel about their use in particular circumstances that there is a tension between those who ride them and those who can't stand them, and everybody else in between. What is your department doing to try to address those issues?

 

It's obviously easier depending where your parks fall in some municipalities. Some municipalities in the province, like parts of CBRM, HRM, and I think some in Truro as well, have bylaws which would prohibit the use of off-highway vehicles, or conversely actually allow them under certain rules. The vast majority of areas - trails probably - have no rules other than those of the province, in terms of one way or the other, which is where we hear most of the conflicts. I'm wondering, what is your department doing to try to come up with a plan to resolve those conflicts and see if there's a way to find a happy compromise?

 

MR. PARKER: Certainly the off-highway vehicle controversy, a few years ago in particular, was very troublesome, I guess. The rules were far less stringent than they are today and there were many challenges, everything from trespassing to very serious injuries or deaths on off-highway vehicles, four-wheelers in particular. Since maybe 2005, when it really came to a head, the rules have been tightened, enforcement has been stronger, and we have our own four-wheel machines and snowmobiles, and so on, so we can go out on the trails.

 

A lot of it is education, working with the users and working with organized groups out there. For a number of years we had the Off-highway Vehicle Ministerial Advisory Committee that was valuable to the minister and to the department. More recently we've morphed from that into a more inclusive advisory group using trails organizations. It's not just the four-wheelers or snowmobilers that use the trails, of course, it's hikers and somebody on a bicycle or maybe a birdwatcher - there are a variety of users of our trails out there. We're trying to be more inclusive and include those types of groups in having some input, I guess having the government's ear more than anything, on what the rules and regulations should be.

 

We've recently, as I've said, changed the ministerial advisory committee to include these other groups to make it more inclusive. I think it's a better way to go. From a few years ago, I think we've come a long way. I think the initial report that was put forward by Voluntary Planning was called Out of Control. I no longer believe that we are out of control, I think the rules and regulations are pretty strong, and fortunately the numbers of accidents have gone down. Young people are not allowed on machines that are not suitable for them and there's better enforcement, better training, and better education programs.

 

Like I said, we've come a long way and we're constantly working at it, and I think as we move forward we'll continue to work with the organizations that are out there, really with all Nova Scotians, to make sure that the sport or the recreation or the industry is as safe as it can be.

 

MR. YOUNGER: Do you support the designation of trails in the province for either or both of the exclusive use of non-motorized uses and also for motorized uses?

 

MR. PARKER: Generally our department has been supportive of multi-use trails and allowing all users to, with respect - I guess to respect one another so that all users can take advantage of some of these trails.

 

There are certainly areas of the province that have some very unique walking trails that are sponsored or supported by walking groups that have set up those trails just for that purpose. Generally, overall, we're inclusive of a multi-use type of trail.

 

MR. YOUNGER: All right. The last - I think I have about four or five minutes left on my time?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Actually, member, you have 12 minutes left.

 

MR. YOUNGER: I have 12 minutes, all right. I want to go back to something we were talking about earlier, and this always happens when you're sort of in the last bits, tying up some loose ends.

 

Back to woodlots and wood supply - the member for Cape Breton West started down this road. One of the things that we noticed, and many woodlot owners and mill owners, is while I understand the rationale behind stockpiling the wood in Auld's Cove - which my honourable colleague was talking about - in some parts of the province it had the effect of driving down price, according to the independent woodlot owners. They've put that in writing. They said they saw an immediate reduction in the price available for their supply, which ended up having a negative impact on those suppliers in the southwest part of the province interestingly enough. Does your department look at those kinds of impacts?

 

I understand what you said to the member for Cape Breton that we sell the product for market price, but of course the market price fluctuates up and down, as you know, and the argument from many of the independent woodlot owners is that market price fell quite dramatically for pulpwood and biomass type supplies in the wake of that decision. I just wonder if you could address that.

 

MR. PARKER: Mr. Chairman, certainly it was a challenge to all of a sudden have the mill close. On September 9^th it was no longer buying wood and we as a government saw that as a very difficult circumstance - hundreds of people employed at the mill, hundreds employed in the woodlands - so almost immediately we came through with the seven-point plan that would keep silviculture contractors still employed, and 250 to 300 of those jobs were maintained in Inverness, Victoria, and Richmond Counties in Cape Breton, and Guysborough, Pictou, and Antigonish Counties on the mainland - those seven eastern counties. It kept the supply chain going. It allowed those workers to remain here and still be an important part of our economy. A good number were still able to provide employment to workers and that helped keep the stores, you know, the retail and the restaurants and the service stations and everything, going in the economy.

 

When a huge mill like Stora closes down, it certainly creates a lot of anxiety in the community, among the workers and the families and the whole economy really, but all of a sudden to have one or two major pulp mills there and then to go to one, then there is no competition on the pulpwood side. There certainly still is on stud wood or long logs, even firewood. So that's the nature of the beast, I guess, when you lose a major competitor.

 

So as I've said before, the sooner we can get that pulp mill going at Port Hawkesbury, even if it's only the supercalendered mill, it's still going to create a lot of employment at the mill and in the woodlands, and market forces should prevail that as there's competition now for that wood, it will drive the prices back up. So it's just the cyclical nature of one major buyer as compared to two. We're hopeful that the competition will allow for a better marketplace, it will allow for better prices, and that will support the private woodlot owner and help to support the small private woodlot owner, which is what we're doing in our Natural Resources Strategy.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Younger, there's about five minutes remaining - six minutes.

 

MR. YOUNGER: I understand that issue. But I think we have to understand that with Bowater opening under reduced capacity and NewPage opening under reduced capacity, you're not going to have the same demand that was there before, obviously, because NewPage won't be making newsprint. They'll be making supercalendered paper which has had an 18 per cent drop worldwide in demand, which is probably why they're doing the three-week shutdown as part of the labour contract that they just negotiated. They have to address the fact that while they make an excellent product, which is in higher demand than newsprint and they're very competitive, there still has been an 18 per cent worldwide drop in demand on supercalendered paper just in the past year alone. So there are still going to be challenges in demand drop, but I do understand that not all of it is the impact of government.

 

There is another industry which is very similar to that so in my last couple of minutes I just wanted to ask about that - pellets from biomass. Specifically what I'm interested in is your other department indirectly, the Department of Energy. Efficiency Nova Scotia was encouraging people to buy pellet stoves and there are incentives for that, which is fine. They've done a business case around that, so I assume they've determined that's better than some of the other alternatives.

 

But we have a number of pellet manufacturers in Nova Scotia that are shipping overseas and the argument has been made by some people involved in those that those pellet mills could continue to operate at the same or higher capacities and sell domestically in Nova Scotia for a higher price. They wouldn't have to compete on shipping because they wouldn't have to factor the price of shipping container loads of these things over to, I think, Finland - somewhere in Finland or Sweden is the main market.

 

I'm wondering whether your department has looked at partnerships with your other department, the Department of Energy, to try to look at ways to boost domestic supply because I can walk into some of the stores here and end up buying pellets from outside Nova Scotia and then go over to Finland and buy pellets from Nova Scotia - it doesn't seem to make a whole heck of a lot of sense. (Interruption) Yes, it would be a long walk. That's a good point, but I could get on a plane.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Members, no across the table, please.

 

MR. YOUNGER: Maybe the deputy would like to pay for the minister and I go to Finland to check out the pellet stores there.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The minister has the floor.

 

MR. PARKER: Mr. Chairman, it must be getting late, I figure we're diverging here.

 

I think the only pellet manufacturer we have right now is The Shaw Group. They are the one and only, I think, although the new B.C. company that's taking over will soon be in operation. So we don't have a lot of competition in that regard either, but there will be two very shortly.

 

The Department of Natural Resources and government as a whole are constantly looking at other opportunities, other value-added opportunities. That's why we have engaged Woodbridge Associates to look at other value-added opportunities. Certainly we know that softwood lumber and pulpwood have been the basis of our forest economy for decades, but we're engaged with ACOA right now and looking at other opportunities, such as torrefaction and pyrolysis. The industry is going to change, it's going to transform, and we know it's not always going to be based on pulpwood. Industry realizes that.

 

We have the fibre, we have the tremendous capability of growing trees here in Nova Scotia; our climate is perfect for that, especially softwood fibre, so these new opportunities are exciting. Pellets are one product that is produced here now but as time goes by, there will be many other good opportunities. There's research being done through Innovacorp. I know in Cape Breton, CBU is looking at many different options for energy use. So there's even a pellet-making unit that's manufactured there now - I forget the company right off but it's in the Sydney area - and they have the capability for not only wood fibre but other waste: biodegradable farm waste, hay, and grass pellets.

 

There's a lot of opportunity. Maybe I'm putting my Energy hat on here for the moment but there are really many opportunities in energy diversification, using our natural resources. Pellets are part of that but it could be pellets manufactured from other products as well.

 

I'm not quite sure if I've answered your question but I'm excited about the opportunities in the pellet manufacturing, not just for wood but for hay and grass and other products as well.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Honourable member, that concludes the Liberal hour. I will now call on the Progressive Conservative caucus. There are 25 minutes remaining in our four-hour time frame.

 

The honourable member for Inverness.

 

MR. ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, minister, I appreciate having the opportunity to ask a few questions. I guess the first question I have actually relates to potential budget revenues. In January I wrote a letter to your office about trying to determine if the department would lease space at the Strathlorne nursery for a local entrepreneur. He was ready to begin operations this past April 1^st.

 

I know the previous minister of the department - and I'm sure you would as well, minister - recognized that the nursery has faced a declining business model because there's less demand for seedlings, because of things like the paper mill in Point Tupper right now being on hot idle, but also because of the changes in the forest industry, moving away from plantation-style growths of forest, there will be less and less need for the seedlings that come out of that nursery. I guess what I've been trying to do in my area is to help the people who are employed there, many of them are what we might call "older workers" who, if they were to lose their jobs at the nursery, would have difficulty finding other work, especially in the area.

 

So what I've been trying to do in working with this entrepreneur is to try to provide them with some other opportunities. When this entrepreneur came along and said that he could make use of some of the greenhouse space - I think there's a total of 16 greenhouses, and usually eight of them are not being used because they are located separate from the other eight. I guess it made sense to me, here's a chance to get somebody who needs space - as long as there's not another private-sector greenhouse around that would lease space, as long as we weren't interfering with the private conduct of business - I thought here's a nice opportunity for this guy, to help him out, and also if his production grows, maybe that can provide a transition point for the people who are working at the nursery now, at least for some of them.

 

I certainly hope to see the nursery continue, and I'm going to ask you about that in a minute as well, but my question right now is, I never did receive a response to that letter. We did follow up to see if we could get a response, and we were told one would be coming soon. We never received a response. I'm curious to see why that is and if there is a response today.

 

MR. PARKER: The Strathlorne nursery has been an ongoing employer there in the Inverness County area for a long time. You're right, because of new ways of doing forestry there is a lot more natural regeneration, and so on, so there is less demand for seedlings from that point of view. As we move forward with our Natural Resources Strategy, more partial harvesting and selection management, there may be less need to plant because we're doing a different type of forestry.

 

I don't have an answer for you today on that particular question. The letter has been received, but I'll have to consult with my staff to get you some answers on that. I just don't have it at the moment. I'll certainly look into it, see what's possible, and we'll get back to you on that.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Minister, I know you have a busy schedule and certainly can't be expected to be responsive for every piece of correspondence that comes to your office, but I guess I was a little disappointed that an opportunity was there for somebody. I heard the other day that he has given up, he's going to put up some greenhouses himself. So he has not given up on his opportunity, but I was a little disappointed to have to go back to him and say, I'm sorry I couldn't be of help to you. If he could lease space, obviously it's a lot easier than having to go and construct it himself. I would still appreciate a response to the letter because I think it's important.

 

Minister, I'm trying to help you and your department out as well. If the nursery were to shut down tomorrow, I know there would be a lot of people upset in the Strathlorne and Inverness communities. I guess what I'm trying to do is come up with ways we can help the people that would be affected so that we don't have to be delivering bad news all the time. We've been hit with a lot of bad news. We've lost a lot of jobs at the paper mill in Point Tupper. Thankfully, we're going to see some of the workers there go back to work, but in my area of the province - and I hate to be coming here to the city all the time and saying how terrible things are, because they're not terrible where I come from, but we certainly face economic challenges. Most of our economy is rooted in the primary economy, and as we know, there are industries that are suffering. I think I've made my point, so I do look forward to a response on that.

 

With that, I guess I should mention that I have been following the price of wood closely, as well, and I appreciate what your department is doing to try to help out the people that are working in the forestry sector in my area - there are a lot of people. I'm also pleased to hear - originally I thought a lot of those people wouldn't be going back to work because of the shutdown of the newsprint side of the paper mill, but now hearing that there is potential for all of them in the forestry sector to be going back to work because a good portion of the wood - something that I never realized is, apparently, 40 per cent of the wood was being imported for the mill.

 

Maybe one last question, minister - and I know there's going to be agreement on the Crown leases for wood - do you see potential for all of the people in the forestry sector to be able to go back to work; will there be a need for their services with the restarting of the supercalendered machine at Pacific West?

 

MR. PARKER: Before I answer your question, the seedlings that we talked about at Strathlorne, I understand the sales were actually up in 2011 and 2012, so the same level is planned for this year. Maybe that will change in the future with a new transformative role in their forest industry and a new way of doing forest management, but at least for the coming year the levels will be the same as they have been this past year. Your question was around?

 

MR. MACMASTER: Sorry, if I may, I was inquiring whether you thought that the forestry workers, people working in the forests cutting the pulp and delivering it to the mill, you know, we're hearing in the news that 40 per cent was being imported for the paper mill. We know that there's going to be reduced demand because they're not running the newsprint machine anymore, but perhaps under the new ownership they'll import less wood and maybe use more, keep the people that have been working here, even though there's going to be lower demand. If they're going to be using all wood from Nova Scotia, it might - I guess I wanted to ask you if you think that those people will all be going back to work.

 

MR. PARKER: I believe we're going through a transformation right now in our forest industry. We're getting away from - and I guess the clear-cutting goal, as you know, is 50 per cent, which is our goal within five years. So that means 50 per cent will be from partial harvest and a lot more selection harvesting and a lot more Category 7 silviculture management. So I think there are probably additional opportunities there - our woodlands - and that will require as many if not more workers and, you know, instead of one guy just operating a big machine and harvesting everything in sight, under selection harvesting there are still going to be machines in the woods but there's going to be more need for silviculture and more need for trained workers to do pre-commercial thinning or just releasing crop trees or, you know, all the various aspects of good forestry management.

 

So I'm encouraged that we're going to be getting away from just a very few quick operators that can take the trees down in a hurry, to much more intensive management that will allow for more good silviculture. That's why we had the Forestry Infrastructure Fund, to keep those silviculture jobs going. I think there were 250 to 300 employed in silviculture last Fall on the Crown lands, and there will be more of that in the future as we transform the industry and as we engage more private woodlot owners who want to be good stewards of their land.

 

So I'm encouraged that it's going to create more employment over time and really we're going to have a healthier forest that's going to be more environmentally sustainable and you'll see a woodlot, you know, with trees in it that you can walk through rather than just one crop every 50, 75, or 100 years. So I think with the transformation and with some of our policies that we're moving forward with, like no whole-tree harvesting and clear-cut reduction, there will be more opportunities in our woodlands for employment.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I know we don't have a lot of time left this evening but I thought I would leave it to the minister, perhaps, if he wanted to wrap up his thoughts.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Actually, we have to go until our closing time which will be 6:25 p.m., so we have 15 minutes remaining. I'm wondering how much - sorry, 6:35 p.m. is the time. We started at 2:28 p.m. and without a break, closing would have been 6:28 p.m. - four hours - but we had a seven-minute break so that means we go to 6:35 p.m. Minister, how much time do you want for closing?

 

MR. PARKER: I only need a couple of minutes to do that. If there are questions from the members on either side, I'm more than willing to . . .

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Certainly we have some questions here if you're finished - are you finished, Mr. MacMaster?

 

MR. MACMASTER: Yes.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Kings North.

 

MR. JIM MORTON: Thank you to the members of the Progressive Conservative Party for giving us a bit of time.

 

I just wanted to draw the minister's attention to Cape Split in Scots Bay. Cape Split is an important part of our province. It's not a provincial park at this point but it does have a certain iconic status both here in Nova Scotia and around the world. I know there are plans being developed for the park; there have been some thoughts about creating a parking lot. I know that has involved some very interesting collaboration between the province and departments in government, it has involved municipal government, and it has involved interest and activity in the community of Scots Bay itself.

 

I guess I'd just like to know what your thoughts are within the department, and as minister, for the future of that property that the province has now owned for several years - since 2002, I believe.

 

MR. PARKER: Personally I haven't had the opportunity to get out to Cape Split. I've often said that some long weekend my wife and I might visit and take the hike from Scots Bay right out as far as you can go, I guess. I actually got as far as the parking lot one time, but I haven't gone beyond that. I hear it's very nice, I hear it's quite a hike. It's a rugged trail, I believe, so you have to be dressed for it. I'm looking forward to doing that sometime.

 

I know the issue there is around the parking lot, finding a spot to put your car, I believe, and I know there are some concerns from the local fire department about where vehicles can be parked. I know that we're looking at that in our department; I believe it has gone to the TCA process here in government, the need to upgrade or make a better parking lot there for visitors. We're well aware of the beauty of that park and the potential for tourism and the importance of it to the local community. It's under consideration, what we can do financially to help make it safer or better or more parking in that area.

 

MR. MORTON: I just might add if I may, this is not so much a question but a comment about the thought that you would like to get to the end of Cape Split is exactly what makes it an iconic activity. People all around the world think it should be one of the things that they accomplish sometime during their lifespan. I think that makes it a very important draw. With a little bit more development, I think it could be extremely important to the economy of Kings County and the Annapolis Valley.

 

MR. PARKER: It's on my bucket list.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: We have 10 minutes remaining and the minister will need at least two minutes for his closing remarks. I see two other hands, Mr. Prest and then Mr. Preyra. (Interruption) Sorry, he had his hand up much earlier, when Mr. Morton was speaking. The Liberals showed us how to share today. They gave time to the Progressive Conservatives; we'll give time to each other.

 

The honourable member for Eastern Shore.

 

MR. SIDNEY PREST: Mr. Minister, I was wondering about - and I could be wrong on this - some of the better quality wood that was stockpiled for the NewPage mill, if it had been cut to an extended length of 100 inches, rather than 96, it could have gone as stud wood. Is that correct?

 

MR. PARKER: Certainly the whole issue there with NewPage has been a challenging issue, and our goal is to keep the mill in hot idle for a new buyer and keep the supply chain in place for the forest workers. I think we've been successful in doing both of those things. The wood that has been harvested has certainly been separated out into its products, so roundwood has been sold to lumber mills and stud wood has been sold to stud mills. The pulpwood and biomass has been stored at Auld's Cove.

 

I have a note here - I guess DNR has been checked by our chief scaler. Our goal is to get the most money out of the wood that we can, so if it's logs or stud wood it has gone to those mills, gone to those sources, and only pulpwood and biomass or fuelwood has been stored at Auld's Cove. Again, highest and best use is our goal.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Citadel-Sable Island.

 

MR. LEONARD PREYRA: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I did not expect this opportunity to ask a question; I would like to thank the Progressive Conservative Party for that. We were talking about parks and I know the member for Kings North is very passionate about Cape Split, being at the end, but I do want to remind him that it is not the end. It's really Sable Island National Park that is, and if you want to have a bucket list, certainly Sable Island National Park would be at the top of that list. You and I, minister, have talked about this over the last several years about our common love of horses and the next time we go to Sable Island - we have a mutual pact, I think - that whoever gets the first invitation will take the other.

 

That being said, in all seriousness, I wonder if you could tell us something about the progress of the development of Sable Island National Park. I know it fits into the larger departmental strategy of acquiring land - a 12 per cent goal - and also to create these wilderness and natural spaces for future generations. I wonder if you could tell us something about Sable and where we are with that project.

 

MR. PARKER: Certainly it was great news when it came earlier this year that Sable Island would become a national park. I believe it's still considered a park reserve at the moment. Some Aboriginal issues still need to be worked on, but it is designated to be a national park. There was a long process to work with our federal partners to make it happen, including consultation with the Department of Energy, as well, around some of the oil and gas rights off the coast of Sable Island. There's no oil and gas drilling on the island, or within a mile of the shore, so that protects the island.

 

You're right, we have an ongoing pact to go out there to visit your residents - you being the member for Halifax Citadel-Sable Island and that's an important part of your constituency. Hopefully we'll get the opportunity to do that; I would say it's also on my bucket list. It's going to be a wonderful new national park for all Canadians. Another bit will be restrictions on just how you can visit and when, but those details will be worked out.

 

I guess at this point we're working with our partners in the federal government to work out the exact details. They have legislation, a bill they have to pass in Parliament, so we're working with them collaboratively to try to see that come to fruition. I think it's a real bonus to have a third national park in Nova Scotia and a very, very unique one, maybe one of the smaller national parks in our country, but they're all beautiful in their own way and we're pleased that it will be there. So you and I will get to realize that dream, I'm sure, at some point and I'm looking forward to that. But it's really now working with the federal government towards their legislation.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: There's time for one more quick question and a quick answer.

 

MR. PREYRA: Just a quick comment I think, you know, it's one of those things that I had not realized until I was actually elected and people realized that I was the MLA for Sable Island. It's small and it's remote, and very few people have seen it, yet it occupies this place in the Nova Scotian imagination out of proportion to anything that makes any logical sense. But I think Nova Scotians are very passionate about their parks and their green spaces and I think it's very important, regardless of their economic benefit, that there is an inherent value because of the place it occupies in the Nova Scotian imagination and the implications for wilderness protection and the need to protect spaces for future generations.

 

There is a real desire on the part of all of our constituents, particularly mine, which is more of an urban constituency, to make sure that we don't forget that there is real value in these special places - just like the member for Kings North and Cape Split - those are important spaces and I'm happy that the department is taking a leadership role in making sure we respect those desires. Thank you.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for the commercial rather than the question, but there will be no answer to that.

 

Mr. Minister, you just have time to do your statement. Last week in the House there was some question about going overtime on the statement; I'm allowing you enough time so you can even read slowly if you want.

 

MR. PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and just a quick comment to the member for Halifax Citadel-Sable Island. I know he changed the name of his constituency to add Sable Island to it, and I happen to come from a riding with an island as part of my constituency, that being Pictou Island, so maybe I should change it to Pictou West-Pictou Island - I'll have to think on that one.

 

Anyway, I just want to wrap up by saying that I thank all the honourable members for their questions here this afternoon. We've had some good dialogue and good discussion from all three Parties and it shows that we're passionate about parks, about forestry, about mining, and many other issues. So it has been good to have this discussion.

 

I also want to take a moment to thank my staff who have been with me this afternoon here at the table and also behind me. We have a very dedicated, knowledgeable staff in the Department of Natural Resources.

 

With that, Mr. Chairman, again I thank you for the participation, and I'm excited about the transformation that's occurring in the Department of Natural Resources as we move forward. There are challenges, but there are many opportunities, as well, in the months and years to come.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E15 stand?

 

Resolution E15 stands.

 

Thank you, minister, members, and staff, I appreciate everyone's involvement. That concludes our business for today - that concludes Natural Resources.

 

[The subcommittee adjourned at 6:34 p.m.]