HALIFAX, TUESDAY, APRIL 26, 2011

 

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY

 

3:50 P.M.

 

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Clarrie MacKinnon

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister, honourable members, if we are ready to go we will call on the minister in a moment. We're dealing with Resolution E35, the Subcommittee on Supply, the estimates for the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal. The start time is 3:40 p.m.

 

Resolution E35 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $420,362,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: If the minister is ready, we will call on the minister for preliminary remarks - I'm sorry, 3:50 p.m. is the time, thanks for the correction.

HON. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I do know that the correction comes in from the member for Argyle. I know how important members of the Opposition are looking forward to this opportunity to exchange with me, as the minister, because believe it or not, last year at this time we missed this distinct privilege when we were in the other Chamber. I know there has been some toing and froing but I also know how important it is for members that they want to have the opportunity to discuss some specific issues when it comes to Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal.

 

Mr. Chairman, I offer no apologies for the fact that I have an opening statement here that is of some length. I think it's important to get these things on the record. I also know that there are members of my staff who are present who, for once, want me to stick to the text of a prepared speech and not deviate too much. So in light of the fact that there has been a great deal of work put together on this speech, I'm going to put it into the record with the occasional, only occasional deviate, I'm sure.

 

 

491

 

It's a pleasure to see you here today to share this important information about our department with my colleagues and all Nova Scotians. I would like to take this opportunity to introduce the staff members who are at the front table with me. First of all, in order of precedence and importance; Jane Fraser, the Executive Director of Finance and Strategic Capital Planning is here on my left. Jane has been of absolute unbelievable assistance to me, particularly when it comes to the convention centre, a topic that I know will be of some interest to members present.

 

Second, and maybe least important, is Bruce Fitzner. Mr. Fitzner is the Chief Engineer for Highway Programs. I've had the opportunity to tour bases all over this province with Mr. Fitzner. I would say that he is a delight to have in the vehicle with us, as long as he's not driving or thinking that he is a comedian. I welcome both Bruce and Jane here and other members of my staff who are behind me - I mean in a figurative way and also by way of support. I appreciate their support here today and together we'll do our best to provide you with some highlights and respond to your questions about the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal.

 

I'd like to begin with highway improvements, if I may. As everyone knows, we've taken on a difficult task trying to get Nova Scotia's finances back to balance. We're taking a strategic and a steady approach, in my opinion, as we bring Nova Scotia's finances back to balance we're ensuring that government lives within its means and that it focuses on the programs and services that are important to Nova Scotia. We know that roads and roadbuilding are extremely important to Nova Scotians. It is an investment in our local economies and provincially from one end of the province to the other and, of course, it's an investment in our communities.

 

A healthy road budget brings good jobs that help grow our economy. In this budget our government announced that $265 million will be invested in a variety of road and bridge improvements for communities across Nova Scotia. I am pleased to say, Mr. Chairman, that our government has made historic investments in highway infrastructure in Nova Scotia. This year's budget is the third-largest highway capital budget in our province's history.

 

I can assure you, as a member of Treasury Board, having an opportunity to sit with the Minister of Finance and sit with the Deputy Premier week after week, many times they've heard me speak on the importance of the Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal budget, particularly when it comes to roads.

 

Adding in this year's capital program, I'm proud to say that in three years we've invested $900 million in paving, new highway construction, as well as bridge repair and replacement - $900 million and I have to thank the Minister of Finance for listening to me on occasion, I guess. That's more than an investment in roads, it's an investment in communities. Our roads must be safe and efficient for Nova Scotians who travel from community to community, whether for business or pleasure. Our highways also provide vital infrastructure for businesses to get the goods to market. Of course these same roads are used each year by the many visitors to our beautiful province.

 

However, even with these major investments, we have, and I, as the minister, have a big job ahead of us. The department is responsible for more than 23,000 kilometres of roads in the province and that's the equivalent of driving from Sydney to Vancouver four times over. This includes 100-Series Highways, secondary and local roads and, of course, bridges.

 

Over the last few years we've cut ribbons on several exciting projects around the province. For example, in Cape Breton we recently opened a newly twinned section of Highway 125. I know how important that section of the road is to Cape Bretoners and, of course, those of us who are fortunate enough to visit that part of Nova Scotia. Today motorists from Balls Creek to Coxheath are able to drive this newly completed, five-kilometre section of highway which opened to traffic in late 2010. The total cost of this twinning was $14 million. Work has already begun on twinning the remainder of Highway 125 from Coxheath to Grand Lake Road and I can assure you that members present, Cape Bretoners and, of course, mainlanders aside, we know how important Highway 125 is to Cape Breton.

 

Last summer motorists in one of the province's most travelled highways benefited from a new, four-lane section of twinned road between St. Croix and Three Mile Plains on Highway No. 101. This phase of twinning resulted in the completion of 7.4 kilometres of twinned highway, resulting in safer and more efficient travel. I must thank the member for Kings North for assisting me in the opening of that section of the road. The cost to twin this particular section of Highway No. 101 was about $22 million, funded jointly by the federal and the provincial governments. Future work on this highway includes work on the section between Three Mile Plains and Falmouth.

 

Here in Halifax, each day thousands of drivers are benefiting from improved transportation with the opening of the Larry Uteck interchange on Highway No. 102 in Bedford. This $20 million project was cost-shared by the province, the federal government and the Halifax Regional Municipality. It was a pleasure to have the opportunity to open that section of this important highway system here within the HRM. In addition to providing a modern interchange for more efficient travel, this critical piece of infrastructure is also helping to support successful development in the area.

 

Planning also constitutes and continues on the Highway No. 103 twinning project, which involves a 22-kilometre section from Exit 5, just adjacent to where I live in Upper Tantallon, to Exit 6 at Hubbards. The project may also include a new interchange in the Boutiliers Point area. I note carefully for members present that the project may include a new interchange. We are constantly reviewing the situation, in light of the Boutiliers Point meeting which we held in the Black Point fire hall to review what citizens thought of the need for this interchange.

 

Environmental and other studies are complete on this particular study and were presented at a well-attended meeting in March. Public consultation is a key part of highway construction and I'm pleased to tell members present that this open house was extremely well attended and extremely well received by the communities along the St. Margarets Bay area. Approximately 250 people filled the Black Point fire hall on that event, from mid-afternoon until 8:00 o'clock in the evening.

 

At the open house information about twinning, potential interchange and connector road locations and the project schedule was presented. Other information was presented about roundabouts, environmental effects and socio-economic impacts. The open house provided an opportunity for area residents to ask questions and to provide input and I'm very pleased to see the level of community engagement. In fact, further to a survey which we held on that afternoon and evening, 93 per cent of those who completed the comment forms expressed satisfaction with the event and the format. I must thank the staff again, it was a good, very insightful process and the community is appreciative of it.

 

This is an important project for this community as a whole and I look forward to continuing our discussions. The projected cost of the entire twinning is $85 million, including an estimated $10 million for the proposed interchange, if it goes ahead. Anyone driving through northern Nova Scotia also has had first-hand view of the tremendous progress on the improvements to Highway No. 104. The most recent milestone was the opening of a newly-twinned section of Highway No. 104 between New Glasgow and the Pine Tree Road. This 7.5 kilometre section opened to traffic last September at a total project cost of $22 million.

 

I want to thank the members for Antigonish and Pictou County for being so supportive of this project. Highway No. 104 combines with Highway No. 102 as the primary provincial highway link between Halifax and Sydney. It's also the primary provincial highway link with New Brunswick and with Newfoundland and Labrador through the Marine Atlantic Ferry Services out of North Sydney. These are just a few of the examples of major highway improvements taking place across the province. These are the projects that get the big headlines, that get the photo opportunities, but there are other projects I am going to mention as we go forward, when we'll see that these projects, in local secondary road situations, are just as important.

 

Aside from these major twinning initiatives, there are many other projects making important road improvements in our communities. For example, in the Valley, construction of the Granite Drive roundabout and Trunk 1 began last year and will be completed in the coming construction season. Work was also completed on a new, $4 million interchange for the Hectanooga Road in Digby.

 

In Cumberland County a $5 million replacement for the Northport Bridge will be completed in early summer. I had the opportunity this weekend to have a look at the Northport Bridge and I know it is behind schedule. That is unfortunate, because of some circumstances with the weather and the tough winter we had. I also must compliment the principal of the Northport Elementary School. They are currently holding a contest to pick the date - at $5 a ticket - is that correct, member for Cumberland North? - $5 a ticket if you can pick the correct date when it will be open.

 

For the record, let's be clear, the principal of the school received a $100 cheque from the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal because of the good project - on my personal cheque, it's not in my accounts for services rendered as a minister or as the MLA for Timberlea-Prospect. I pointed out to the principal that I, under no circumstances, wanted to pick a date because, although I would have no inside information on it, I know how important the Northport Bridge is, particularly to this minister as he uses that road to get to his cottage on P.E.I., so we'll see what we can do. A $5 million replacement for the Northport Bridge is going to be completed, as it says here, in early summer.

 

In Cape Breton, a $6 million contract was awarded last year for the paving and widening of a section of that all-important Cabot Trail in Victoria County. There is no more highly promoted section of our highway system in this province than the Cabot Trail and we have to make sure it continues to be an attraction for all involved. A $10 million replacement of the Little Bras d'Or Bridge near Sydney Mines will be completed in 2011 and I want to thank the residents of those communities for being patient with the project.

 

In the Halifax Regional Municipality construction continues on the Margeson Drive interchange that will connect the new overpass over Highway No. 101 to Trunk 1 in Sackville. I know both MLAs in Sackville have brought this project to my attention on numerous occasions and I want to thank them for their input to the process. The project includes three roundabouts and is similar in scope to Highway No. 102, Larry Uteck interchange.

 

Further along Highway No. 102, last year a new $4 million overpass replaced the existing interchange at Milford. The coming construction season will see similar work carried out to the benefit of communities across the province. We have two seasons in this province, as I've said many times, we have winter and then we have the construction season when it comes to highways. I want to assure all involved that we are going to be busy again in this province with road builders, with bridge construction and with projects that mean important economic drivers in local communities.

 

I want to take this opportunity if I may, Mr. Chairman, to talk about the five-year plan. Although I am no longer in the House, if I waded in here you'd make me table it, wouldn't you, Mr. Chairman? We will soon release details from the upcoming construction season with the launch of our newly updated 5-Year Highway Improvement Plan. We do this each year, that's part of the commitment. Then, come the end of the highway improvement season, we'll get back to you with a report card on how we've done. That's part of what the five-year plan is all about.

 

Last year our government released Nova Scotia's first-ever Highway Improvement Plan to help develop a strong and modern highway system across Nova Scotia. With this plan communities are able to track provincial road construction from now on, through regular reports and progress. The plan serves as a long-term blueprint for building and maintaining a highway system that connects communities and boosts our economy.

 

Mr. Chairman, I must ask rhetorically if I could, is the five-year plan perfect? Of course it's not, but it's public. It's out there so people can see it and that's a huge change in how highways are being constructed and how bridge work is going to be done in this province. There will be some changes and I know that MLAs present in this room today have made their views known on some changes they would like to see. It is a work in progress but it is a plan, a plan that has been well received by Nova Scotians.

 

Building and maintaining road and infrastructure creates thousands of jobs. It allows local businesses to transport goods to market, it connects Nova Scotians to vital employment, services and education and leads visitors to every corner of the province. Our plan has also increased transparency around the topic of road building in Nova Scotia. Each year following a final approval of the highway capital budget, a full list of projects to be completed during the construction season will be released, along with a list of the multi-year projects planned for the years ahead. We started this process last year, Mr. Chairman, in the coming weeks we'll release our detailed plan along with an update on our progress for the last construction season.

 

I look forward to the continued input of members present and members who are in the other place, when it comes to the road plan and what they think of it as we proceed. Our plan also highlights the criteria to be used in setting road and bridge project priorities. That makes it clear for all involved how these projects are determined and what priority they are in.

 

This longer-term planning and reporting is helping us make the most of available and valuable federal dollars and work more effectively with communities and road builders. It has also allowed tenders to be called earlier than ever before. One particular company, that will remain nameless because it was said with a degree of - not secrecy but with clarity to me - one particular road builder has said he is so appreciative and his company is so appreciative of the tenders being out so early that he doesn't know if he is going to be able to keep up with all this work that he has scheduled ahead of him this season. So the tenders are being called earlier and they are being well received.

 

I'd also like to talk about paving smarter. There's no doubt that our plans are ambitious, we want to improve as many roads as possible in as many communities as we can. We recognize that the needs are great, even with our record investments in road improvements. We needed to look at every option to make the most of every taxpayer dollar. This has required some innovative thinking and careful analysis of how we do our business.

 

I must compliment my staff from the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal for their advice. For example, in the past, a "worst first" approach had been used as the primary method to determine which roads would be improved each year. Of course these are the most costly repairs, meaning that fewer kilometres of roads are improved each year. By directing funding only to the most damaged roads, the overall condition of the paved roads has been deteriorating at a much faster rate than they could be fixed.

 

In order to get the best value for our investment, a more balanced approach is needed. Of course we will still need to address the most severely damaged roads. However, a larger portion of the highway improvement budget will be directed to improving paved roads before they become severely damaged and require even more costly repairs. We will also be making the use of a wider variety of paving options, particularly on lower volume and gravel roads. These roads typically have lower volumes, many less than 500 vehicles per day.

 

As most people know, traditionally the majority of highway funding has gone towards improving the more heavily travelled 100-Series and secondary highways. As a result, Mr. Chairman, many of these low volume roads have deteriorated to unacceptable levels. I know if I ask members present - again rhetorically, I'm not going to give them the floor yet - they could identify some of these unacceptable roads to me in a heartbeat.

 

To help improve more local roads we are expanding the use of chip-sealing paving, which we expect will be a welcome improvement to those who live and work on low-volume, paved or gravel roads that are badly in need of repairs. I can assure you that this more valuable approach has worked in my community and anybody who wants to be on a chip-sealed road that has been exceptionally well received in the community is welcome to come out to Joshua Slocum Drive and see what Joshua Slocum residents think of a chip-sealed road, as opposed to some of the inconveniences they had to put up with before, when come Spring of the year it was just impassable.

 

This more balanced approach, using a variety of treatment options and preservation techniques, means we could provide a hard surface for more gravel roads and pave smarter, by preventing more costly problems before they happen.

 

You've heard me say this before, Mr. Chairman, and I want to repeat it again, our aim is to be paying less, which means we'll be paving more. As part of our effort to get the most work done with the dollars available, we will look, we will take a good look at tendering practices and the prices we're getting. The results of this work have shown that Nova Scotians are paying, in some cases, too much for road work in some parts of the province. In areas of the province where there is little competition within the private sector for paving jobs, prices have been at least 10 per cent higher and even as much as 50 per cent higher than in areas where there is more competition. An ideal competitive bidding process results when there are between six and eight bidders for jobs. As the number of bidders decrease, prices increase.

In 2008 and 2009, 83 per cent of paving tenders in Nova Scotia had three or fewer bidders and 13 paving projects had only one bidder - 13 paving projects had only one bidder. That's not competition, Mr. Chairman. In fact in those years one company did more than half of all the paving work. That's not competition.

 

As a result of this lack of competition, taxpayers have been paying too high a price in some parts of the province, which directly impacts the amount of paving we can get done. To address this issue we have committed to a small amount of paving and chip-sealing work in-house, done by our employees within the department. In total, we expect this amount to be around 10 per cent of all work done - 10 per cent of all work done. In reality, however, about 95 per cent of the total highway capital budget will still go to private sector as we will be tendering the aggregate and other aspects of road building.

 

As most people would expect, we've heard from road builders who are not pleased with the effort. They are not pleased with some of the figures that we've made public. More importantly, I've heard from Nova Scotians, I've heard from independent truckers and they are pleased that we are addressing this issue. They have stated that they believe the private sector can do this work at a lower cost than the government - road builders have said that to us, they can do it cheaper than government.

 

However, an in-depth analysis of tender prices over the past few years clearly indicates that even if the private sector can pave at a lower cost, their ability to do so has not been reflected in tender prices we have been getting in some parts of the province, and I repeat, some parts of the province. This issue is less about the ability and more about competition and, in this case, lack of competition.

 

The analysis for doing some paving work in-house was prepared by professional engineers and staff with decades of experience. This initiative also builds on our current successful models for line painting and bridge work where some of the work is done by our own crews, in-house, resulting in more competition and lower costs for taxpayers.

 

We are committed to an audit of the in-house paving projects within five years of start-up, which will be made publicly available. We are confident that doing even a small amount of work in-house will result in savings, meaning that we can do more road improvements with the available budgets. Paying less means paving more. We will continue to do all we can to get the most for every taxpayer dollar.

 

As I mentioned earlier, over the last number of years hundreds of millions of dollars in road work projects have been awarded to Nova Scotia companies. They have benefited significantly from federal and provincial stimulus projects. In fact, since 2005, the annual budget for road paving in this province has more than doubled. Road builders will still be able to operate as successful businesses in this province.

 

As I've said before, we have a lot of hard work ahead of us, we have to work together with road builders. I personally believe that I have a very good working relationship with the Road Builders Association. I've been their guest speaker at their AGMs on a number of occasions. In fact, the Executive Director of the Road Builders Association, Grant Feltmate, is a constituent of mine. We need our road building partners and I look forward to continuing our positive and productive relationship.

 

I'd like to turn to another topic, if I may, and that's the construction zone safety issue. This includes joining together every year to encourage drivers to slow down and keep our crews safe while they are working on our roads. I always remember those advertisements, sometimes when the workers are saying he's going by me so fast he actually took the hat right off my head or, in that particular case, the hardhat right off his head.

 

Soon we'll be experiencing another booming highway construction season and we're asking drivers to be on alert when travelling through these work areas. Road construction sites are the workplace for hundreds of men and women and we, as drivers, need to do everything we can to protect them. Slow down, those signs are very clear that fines will be doubled in work areas and those have attracted the attention of people. They are aware of the fact that there are men and women working ahead and that they should slow down and make sure there's not an incident that they'll be sorry for.

 

If I can, I'd like to take this opportunity to talk about Meat Cove. I know the member for Inverness is present and I know the member for Victoria-The Lakes will certainly join in on this. I've just spent a bit of time discussing planned road improvements and it's important that we recognize this project. I'd be remiss if I didn't take a moment to acknowledge the tremendous work of staff who responded so quickly in times of emergency.

 

A very familiar example is, of course, Meat Cove, which was cut off by road and bridge damage, following a major storm last August. Hundreds of people were involved in efforts to help the Meat Cove community recover from the devastating rainstorm. Provincial, as well as municipal and federal agencies, worked with communities to identify priority needs and the appropriate programs and services to respond. I can tell you that one of the most rewarding meetings I ever attended was when we had - and we had great food, of course, because we were in Cape Breton - we went to Middle River and the hall there, we hosted the men and women who participated - most of them were there because they certainly cleaned up on the food.

 

We presented each of them, because of the work with Meat Cove, with a T-shirt, a simple T-shirt that said "Gettin 'er done in Meat Cove". You know you have hit the target when those men - and all of them seem to have such big hands, not these teacher hands or those engineer hands - when they came up to receive their T-shirt - most of them were XXLs, incidentally - they put them right on. Afterwards they asked if - and of course they made me take my Bruins hat off - they asked if we could have a picture together.

 

There were 50-plus of them there that day. I tell you, it was a great opportunity to sit down and have a meal, a great opportunity to recognize these men, these women, for what they had done. In fact, there were a number of women who were not pleased with the size of the T-shirts, they said they didn't want nightgowns, they wanted T-shirts and we made an additional five small T-shirts available to the women at a later date. It was a great opportunity for me, as a minister, to see first-hand how these people appreciate when they are appreciated themselves and all for a T-shirt. It was a great moment.

 

I know the member for Inverness is aware of it and I know he has heard from his constituents. It was a great effort and I thank them all again.

 

We've also seen major storms in other parts of the province, including southwest Nova Scotia, Pictou County and parts of Cape Breton. I know we've talked about the Margaree and I know that the chairman, of course, the good member that he is, gets himself on provincial television very regularly, particularly as he let on that he could walk on the water out to Pictou Island that day but I do appreciate the fact that TIR staff is working closely with people on the ground. I know there are some local people in your area, Mr. Chairman, who certainly very quickly pitched in. These storms resulted in major flooding and infrastructure damage.

 

I can tell you that we have ongoing concerns about that. I've asked the staff to make as soon as possible, a clear inventory of roads that are threatened by some of our climate change issues, roads that are close to the coast, roads that can suffer from washout.

 

I know the member for Richmond, on a tour that he took me on recently, put me in a situation where I saw first-hand some of the needs and we have to be prepared for some of the challenges that we face when it comes to breakwaters, when it comes to wharves and when it comes to roads. It is something that we're going to continue to pay a great deal of attention to.

 

If I may, I'd like to turn to the topic of ferries. We're also keeping communities connected by investing in replacement of our aging provincial ferries. Last summer Premier Dexter launched the Brady E. Himmelman to honour the long-time local ferry operator. It was a great day. The principal of the school where I live, Mr. Chairman, is the daughter of Brady E. Himmelman. It was like a family reunion when Mr. Himmelman arrived and I can assure you - Mr. Brady Himmelman was present that day - and it was certainly an emotional event.

 

I know the LaHave ferry is of some real importance. The member for Lunenburg West certainly has served a particular role as an MC. He thought he was amusing and we were all listening intently to everything he said until, of course, Mr. Himmelman was called upon.

 

This is a $3.5 million ferry which can carry 14 full-size cars, two more per trip than its predecessor, the LaHave II. It is a true Nova Scotia project because it was designed by E.Y.E. Marine Consultants of Dartmouth and was built by A. F. Theriault and Son Limited in Meteghan.

 

We have approximately 2,300 employees across the province, most of whom work out in the field in communities from Yarmouth to Sydney. One of the hardest jobs we have is that of snowplow operator. I've seen these folks at work and while most people are home in bed, they are out plowing and salting our roads and sanding our roads and ensuring that the province can keep moving after snow or during snowy weather. Staff are at the ready 24 hours a day, seven days a week. When severe winter storms hit, we encourage people to stay at home to ensure everyone's safety and to allow winter maintenance operators to properly clear roads.

 

Recently I had a great tour, as I mentioned earlier, on three different occasions where Mr. Fitzner and Mr. Darrow, our deputy minister, had the opportunity to visit work depots all across this province. I can tell you, the men and women who take pride in snow removal, when you have the opportunity to meet a man who has cleared off Economy Mountain, then you begin to realize how dangerous a job that is, in the dirty and dark of the night when we are coming up over Economy Mountain. I find it a challenge to drive it in the good weather of the summer.

 

I must point out that I had the opportunity to meet Rose Gault. Rose is, as the name denotes, a woman and a plow-driving woman. She takes great pride in the fact that she can operate that heavy equipment just as well as I can - and I can't really at all. She put me up in that machine and I realized this is no job for this particular minister.

 

Road safety is a key mandate of our department. I want to talk about a topic that really infuriates me. I know the members of the House, of course, are always amused by the fact that they never see that guy from Timberlea-Prospect who sat in Opposition and was always infuriated by everything but he has gone away, he is now the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal.

 

What infuriates me is drinking and driving. I cannot get over it. In fact, I have a couple of headlines here: "Father drove drunk with kids in car" - just recently; today, "New Brunswick man charged with drunk driving after court" - three hours after he was in court in Halifax he is arrested in Amherst for driving under the influence. Then, of course, in the middle of my rage I begin to realize that there are some great people out there working at addressing this issue.

 

Today in the House, Mr. Chairman, as you probably heard, I had the opportunity to introduce a resolution congratulating Margaret Miller, the past national president of Mothers Against Drunk Driving for a great book. I haven't seen it yet but I've heard some reviews and I've heard her being interviewed on a number of media outlets. The book is entitled, The Gift: A MADD Mother's Journey of Healing. This book is intended to help others deal with the tragic loss of loved ones, to increase awareness of the personal costs of drunk driving. Margaret lost her son, a Springhill police officer, in a tragic accident while he was off-duty, enjoying a vacation on Prince Edward Island. Again, I want to thank Margaret Miller for her great work.

 

Let's talk about some of the things we've done, however, to include road safety in this province. We have a number of initiatives underway to address other factors that impact road safety. We've also focused on making Nova Scotia's roads safer to help support our economy, reduce the burden of health care and ensure strong connections among our communities.

 

We are working with our partners on initiatives to reduce the number of needless deaths, disabilities and injuries. These programs include a mix of legislation, enforcement and, all important, education. Unfortunately one of these issues that we continue to face is impaired driving. Last Fall we took another step forward in our fight against impaired driving through tougher consequences for people caught driving with a blood alcohol level of .05, including increased licence suspensions.

 

Impaired driving is a leading cause of fatalities and injuries on Nova Scotia roads and by taking more impaired drivers off our roads we're making them safer for Nova Scotians. Under this new law people who register .05 on our roadside alcohol screening test will have their licence suspended for seven days for a first offence, 15 days for a second and 30 days for a third. We will continue to seek out these measures to fight impaired driving in our province.

 

Just this past session, we brought forward new legislation that will introduce new, tougher penalties for people convicted of impaired driving when children under the age of 16 are in the vehicle. Amendments to the Motor Vehicle Act will increase the time a driver's licence is revoked by adding another 12 months on top of the current penalties. First time offenders with this new legislation will also be required to participate in the Alcohol Ignition Interlock Program. The minimum requirement for participation in the program will increase by 12 months for all offenders.

 

We hope that all these measures will be strong deterrents and will help reinforce the message that if you are going to drink, you should not, you must not, you cannot drive because if you do, you are going to get caught, it's just as simple as that. We have no tolerance for impaired driving in this province and we'll continue to take measures to get impaired drivers off our roads.

 

I'm pleased to say that we have several strong partners in our fight. This includes our law enforcement officers, the RCMP and local municipal police and, of course, our friends at MADD Canada. Last year we also invited drivers to take part by introducing Campaign 911.

 

If I may, Mr. Chairman, I want to talk about Campaign 911 because the reception from Nova Scotians has been exceptional. Drivers are encouraged to call 911 and report suspected impaired driving. A year after the launching of Campaign 911, Nova Scotians are continuing to help keep the province's roads safe by reporting suspected impaired drivers. Police agencies and RCMP have noticed a dramatic increase in calls from the public reporting suspected impaired drivers. For example, 40 per cent - a full 40 per cent of the impaired driving incidents investigated by the Halifax Regional Police in 2010 - were called in by concerned citizens.

 

The man who was arrested twice in one day in Amherst, he was reported by a 911 call; my compliments to Nova Scotians for taking this initiative and making our roads safer for all of us. In fact, the number of fatalities in 2010 was the lowest year on record, but one traffic fatality is one too many.

 

While I believe our initiatives are making a difference, we can do better. Road crashes are preventable and every Nova Scotian has a role to play in making our roads safer. I encourage all Nova Scotians to take a moment to remember those who have lost their lives on our roads and honour them by slowing down, slowing down in work places, buckling up, cutting out the distractions - need I mention one that of course we all talk about all the time, those cursed cellphones? And don't drink and drive.

 

I want you to know, Mr. Chairman, I receive - each time there is an accident, particularly when it comes on provincial roads - the fatality results which come in from Mr. Langille in our Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal. I find it still shocking to see the number of people who are not putting on a seatbelt - I just don't get that. Wearing a seatbelt is just common sense.

 

I know when my little girls were a lot littler they, of course, very quickly put it into my system as they would say to me, Daddy, don't be dumb, like you usually are, they add, put on your seatbelt. We must make sure that people wear seatbelts.

 

For the moment I'd like to talk about bicycle safety legislation. Another important user of our roads, of course, are our bicyclists. It's important that we keep our roads safe for all users. This is why we introduced new legislation that requires drivers to leave one metre of open space between the vehicle and cyclists when passing. Nova Scotia was the first province to enact the one-metre rule which is a law in several of the United States.

 

The education system, of course, is going to help us as we promote this particular piece of legislation. I know members say that it is just common sense but then again, I've seen a lot of near misses, not first-hand, as some members of the House have brought to our attention, but the one-metre rule is common sense so it must be listened to.

 

If I may, I would also like to talk about vehicle compliance, Mr. Chairman. The trucking industry is another important partner in road safety. Commercial vehicle compliance is a key part of our work to prevent damage to our roads and support road safety. Nova Scotia's highways are among the safest in the country and commercial vehicles are involved in a very small number of collisions. That said, we want to do it even better; we have hired more staff to inspect commercial vehicles, more staff that are dutifully going to do their jobs to make sure that commercial vehicles are safely running on the roads of our province.

 

The department has also recently put in a weigh-in motion scale at the Enfield and the Kelly Lake locations which monitor the commercial trucks on a continual basis. I want to share with you, Mr. Chairman, I had the opportunity to visit the weigh-scale in Amherst and the one down at the Strait, as we go on to Cape Breton - actually we were coming off that day at Cape Breton - and the pride that those people have in their jobs as they see these truckers pull in and as they dutifully look at what is right with the commercial trucking industry, I want to thank those people in those scale locations, they are doing a great job. In fact, Amherst inbound has recently been completed and it will be fully operational this summer, when we look at what we're doing with commercial trucks.

 

I must turn to Public Works because it is always an opportunity to meet with John O'Connor and his staff when it comes to this particular part of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal. I've talked a lot about highways but we cannot forget the Public Works Division. Our Public Works staff work closely with government departments, contractors and communities to build much-needed public buildings. These staff provide expertise on public projects ranging from schools to museums to jails and to justice centres. We work with all these departments because as we say in the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, we are the doers, we are the ones who get the job done. These people work hard to ensure these buildings are constructed in the most cost-efficient and environmentally-friendly way possible. This includes expectations for LED certification on new construction but I'm also pleased to report that significant work has been done to make our current public infrastructure more energy efficient.

 

Energy audits have now been completed on hundreds of public buildings, including justice centres, correctional facilities, provincial buildings and community college campuses around the province. These audits identify energy retrofits that will help reduce our impact on the environment while saving money for taxpayers. Improvements began last year and this year we will continue our progress on this important initiative.

 

Let's talk about environmental issues if I may, Mr. Chairman. Whether we're constructing a new school or a building or a new road, we want to make sure that we are all doing all we can to be environmentally sustainable. Some of these initiatives underway include; working with other departments on a sustainable transportation system and strategy, greening our fleet and converting to LED lights on provincial highways.

 

Last year I had the privilege to witness first-hand the LED project in Amherst and let me assure you, when we awarded Black & McDonald a $3 million contract to convert another 2,500 lights throughout the province to LED, it was exceptionally well received. You will notice the difference when LED lighting is at that intersection or that section of highway, I assure you. As one of the first provinces to undertake such a large-scale conversion of highway lights, Nova Scotia is a leader when it comes to using green technology and supporting local, innovative companies.

The LED fixtures are being manufactured and supplied, as I said, in Amherst and it is with pleasure that when I go by that particular site location I am aware of the fact that the member for Cumberland North actually hosted another great event in his community and, for a change, did not make fun of my Boston Bruins tie, so if you want more work done in Amherst you have to have me and my tie with that particular LED project, I want you to know - just joking, as you are well aware.

 

Let's take a moment and talk about the convention centre. How are we doing? When you first become the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal you need a lot of staff, you need a lot of people who have a lot of information to give to you. It was like being fed with a fire hose, I'm sure, for the first month that I was the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal. At the time, Mr. Chairman, of course I was also the Minister of Energy.

 

At one of the briefings I received I had the opportunity to meet with the lady on my left, Jane Fraser. It was on that occasion that I began to realize that there are some smart women in the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal - a lot of smart men but there are some very smart women, particularly when it comes to getting value for our dollar. So when it came to the convention centre I had a huge sigh of relief when the deputy said to me, well, the logical person to give us the advice on this proposal is none other than Ms. Fraser.

 

The new convention centre has been a high-profile infrastructure project for Nova Scotia, for the region, for the Maritimes. Last December the province and the Halifax Regional Municipality reached an agreement on a new convention centre that will create thousands of jobs and new economic development opportunities across the province. A new convention centre means jobs for Nova Scotia, not just in the HRM but jobs for the region. It means new business for industry and more opportunities to showcase Nova Scotia to visitors from around the world.

 

Under the agreement, the province and the HRM will each contribute toward the capital construction costs and cost-share equally on any other operational costs not covered by revenue generated by the convention centre operations. The final hurdle, as you have heard today again and during Question Period, Mr. Chairman, is agreement from the federal government to improve federal funding from the Building Canada Fund, which has supported convention centres in other provinces, the Building Canada Fund that has designated dollars in there that go to convention centres.

 

While the federal election has delayed a response from the federal government, I look forward to May 3^rd because on May 3^rd I want to have my phone ringing to invite me to go to Ottawa to have the opportunity to sit down again with the new minister - well it won't be Mr. Strahl because he's not reoffering this time and Chuck Strahl was more than supportive of this project. Of course his not reoffering means that whatever political stripe forms the government federally in Ottawa, we will have a new minister. I look forward to discussing this project with that new minister responsible for infrastructure as soon as possible.

 

Hearing from the public on the design of the proposed convention centre will also be a key component of the development process of the new centre. This has been an open and transparent process and because the request for proposal requires the developer to have public consultation on the design once the project begins, this transparency will continue.

 

I would be remiss not to mention Mr. Joe Ramia. Mr. Ramia, the developer, has been professional, he has been patient and he has been exceptionally committed to this important event. I look forward to continuing working with Mr. Ramia and my staff will make sure that this project hopefully will receive the proper approval from the federal government when that time comes soon in the future.

 

I know that the member from Whitney Pier, the member for Cape Breton Nova, would be upset with me if I didn't mention the Sydney tar ponds cleanup so I want to take a few moments, if I may, Mr. Chairman, to speak about the Sydney tar ponds. Another project which is critical to the future of Nova Scotia is the remediation of the Sydney tar ponds. In fact today in my office I received a piece of correspondence from a graduate student from the University of Buffalo and she is doing a study on how the Sydney tar ponds project was handled - community input, timing for the project, funding federally and provincially - because this particular graduate student from the University of Buffalo has heard of the success of the Sydney tar ponds project.

 

It has been a long time coming but we are gaining a reputation not just in this country but in the United States, obviously. We're going to help out that graduate student by responding to the questions she has addressed to us on how we - and previous governments also, not just this government - we've moved this project along to eventual completion. This project has now moved successfully from planning to full-scale implementation. This project is not only improving the environment but many jobs are being created as the cleanup progresses.

 

Last October one of the final cleanup contracts was awarded, bringing Sydney residents closer to a cleaner, renovated downtown landscape as the tar ponds enters its final phases of cleanup. The goal has been to complete the tar ponds and the coke ovens remediation period on time, on budget and in a safe and environmentally-sound manner. To date the south tar pond has been remediated. The north pond, from Ferry Street to the north pond narrows, is scheduled to be treated by Fall 2012 and the last section by 2013. This latest project is expected to create about 30 local jobs. Contractors are on site working to safely solidify and stabilize contaminated sediments in the tar ponds, a keystone element of the overall project. Contractors have also built a groundwater collection and treatment system to remediate the coke ovens site.

 

Mr. Chairman, there's no prouder member of the Nova Scotia Legislature than the member for Cape Breton Nova. He worked there and he showed me the gate that he used to come in. He drove me around and pointed out to the member for Sackville-Cobequid and myself what this project was all about. He is proudest of the fact that in the middle of the cleanup there is an athletic field, a great, huge splotch of green that will let football players and soccer players and people who are using the adjoining tennis courts, as we see this project to its completion. It is because of the efforts of members such as the member for Cape Breton Nova, and the previous member for Cape Breton Nova also, that this project is going to be completed.

 

Other projects at the Sydney tar ponds include reclaiming an urban brook, operating a material processing facility and capping the tar ponds and covering the coke ovens for future use. Next door to the cleanup is the Harbourside Commercial Park with a new recreational park that I mentioned earlier, improved water supply and a new road. The former Sydney Steel plant site continues to be transformed into an economic hub. Indeed, the revitalization of the former industrial site will have a lasting impact on the community.

 

A new addition to the park is a regulation-size soccer field and a running track. Basketball and tennis courts with lighting have also been built and a former gate connecting Whitney Pier to the park has reopened, allowing sports enthusiasts to enjoy the new amenities. Office space at the Harbourside Commercial Park is at full capacity. The 14 businesses employ 136 full-time and 20 part-time employees.

 

I would be remiss, Mr. Chairman, if I did not take this opportunity to recognize the ongoing efforts of Gary Campbell of our staff. Mr. Campbell, of course, has played an integral role in making sure that the Sydney tar ponds project is on time and is going to be completed in such a manner that will be acceptable to all the residents of the Sydney area.

 

Mr. Chairman, how much time do I have remaining, if I may ask?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister, you have seven minutes before your hour is up. For introductory remarks the maximum is one hour. In my years I've never seen a minister go quite this long but this is quite interesting.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: You ain't seen nothing yet, and this all prepared text because as the member for Richmond probably would attest, there were so many times in Opposition when I stood up with two notes and one word of advice from John Holm - remember him, of course, member for Richmond - who would say to me, give me 59 minutes and 59 seconds and don't repeat a word. Away I would go on the topic of the day, with no notes in front of me.

 

However, if I may in closing, I want to provide some examples of the important work underway at the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal and I'd like to bring them to your attention now. It's an exciting place to be and I appreciate being able to see first-hand the dedication and talent of the staff. They make a lasting contribution to this province and it is truly appreciated. I've seen this by having the opportunity, as I've said earlier, of touring the province. I've been to the sign shop in Truro and I'm so proud of the fact that somebody finally in this province understands how to spell the word "Estabrooks" because when those signs went out the woman who did those signs said to me, I'm originally from New Brunswick so I know how to make sure that your name is spelled correctly.

 

The sign shop in Truro was an interesting place to visit and when I went over with these engineers on tour they were asking me to keep going, don't miss this, you've got to go here. I think it's important, particularly when you stop in to see something in operation, you take the opportunity to take your time and make sure you see exactly what is going on.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister, just as a notation on time, you have about five minutes to get out of that sign shop.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I'm out of the sign shop now because I want to talk, if I may, about having the opportunity to go into the Londonderry and Oxford bases and talk about the Cobequid Pass. I mean, when you look at the location of the Cobequid Pass and its history, it is there and we put up with what we have to put up with as we're driving to and from the northern parts of this province, but when you see the professionalism and the dedication of the men and the women - or the one woman who I know of thus far who is a plow operator - when I was in the Londonderry base and I had the opportunity to go to the Oxford base, they take great pride in the fact of the coordinated approach and the response because on November 19^th a number of years ago, I guess, a day that will live in infamy, if we can put it that way, that was one of those unfortunate incidents when the minister of the day, Mr. Scott, was caught in a situation where there was some poor communication and, to Murray - if I may call him Murray, Mr. Chairman - he later on, after the event was over, he publicly apologized for what had taken place.

 

We've learned from that experience, I've learned from Mr. Scott personally, in terms of being the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal. That is a coordinated response, knock on wood, and we probably will face challenges in the future when it comes to the Cobequid Pass.

 

We have other challenging parts of the course and I know the Tantramar Marsh, the men and women who work in Amherst have told me about some of the difficulties they've had in weather. Then, of course, there's the Canso Causeway. The Canso Causeway, when it blows in, I know can be a tricky place to operate but those men and women who operate in those tough situations have pride in what they are doing.

 

Of course I would be remiss not to mention Mount Thom, legendary Mount Thom where I wrote off my first great truck and lost my first Bruins licence plate but I want the member for Inverness to know that they went back the next day, the operator who came and pulled me out that night, and dug out my licence plate and had it back on my truck when I came to pick it up the following morning. Those are all indications of people who work hard in our department, people who I have the great pleasure of working with. They are making the province's roads safer, they are making sure that bridges are inspected, they are making sure that, as Ms. Fraser can attest to, we are getting the best value for our dollar.

 

I can assure you that on most occasions I agree with the Premier of this province but when the Cabinet shuffle was underway, when he called me in that day, I was quite prepared to say to him, it is Transportation or nothing, don't move me whatever you do. I never had to get into that difference of opinion with my Premier because he so wisely allowed me to continue to be the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, to have the opportunity to work with the people that I work with day in and day out, to listen to their advice and make sure that we have a well-coordinated, well-run Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal.

 

Mr. Chairman, I thank you for your time and I thank you for the prepared text that Ms. MacIsaac made available to me and I think that, with asides on a couple of occasions, I pretty well stuck to the text. With those comments I'll turn the floor over to the members present.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, minister. We will now have one hour dedicated to the Liberal caucus for questioning.

 

The honourable member for Richmond.

 

HON. MICHEL SAMSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the minister for his brief opening comments. At least, unlike John Holm, you were forthright in telling us right off the bat that you were going to be fairly lengthy. I remember John Holm saying he had just a few remarks - which I like to say in the House myself now, just to irritate the members of the NDP, especially those who were not around during the John Holm days, but I always see that little smirk on your face, minister, when you hear me say that, as I am sure you probably as well still have nightmares from those very days.

 

As you know, I was more than prepared to do Justice estimates today so I've been asked to prepare questions for Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal for my colleague who can't be here, the MLA for Clare, but he certainly has forwarded a number of questions to me.

 

I'm probably known as well, minister, for possibly being long-winded but I will do my best to keep my questions brief and would certainly appreciate (Interruption) We're getting there but certainly would appreciate as well if the minister could be as brief as possible in his responses, so that we can cover a range of topics.

 

You've mentioned today and you've mentioned in the House about the concern over competitiveness with some of the tenders. You specifically highlighted 13 tenders that you indicated last summer only had one bidder. Could you provide us with those specific tenders? I know in my own area people are asking, well is it Richmond? Was it Inverness? Was it Victoria? Where exactly are these problem areas where there isn't enough competition? Rather than us guessing, they're public tenders so I can't see why there would be any hesitation to give the information, but I'm wondering if you could provide it to us either today or at some point this week so that we could see exactly which tenders they are and for which specific areas of the province?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, first of all to the member, I assure you that we're going to have an exchange back and forth, that I'm not going to give long-winded answers because I know there are members on all sides of the House who have questions. The first question is very easy to answer. That information could be made available to you. I know Bruce Fitzner has said that when the need comes those 13 tenders and other information will be made available and forthcoming as soon as possible.

 

MR. SAMSON: You indicated those 13 tenders, I believe, were for the 2010 paving season. Was this an issue as well in 2009 and 2008 and if so, would you be in a position to provide us - not today - with those tenders as well, let's say back to 2008, just to give us an idea if this is something that has been happening each year in specific areas that for whatever reason there is no real competition taking place in those tenders?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: The tenders that I referred to, the information that was given to me was from 2008 and 2009 and that information can be made available to you. I think it's of some consequence - and again, I want to make sure you have every opportunity to discuss this. This was based on information that I had asked for because of the fact that when I first saw the tender dollars arrive I would say, how do I know I'm getting good value for my money if I only have one bid and therefore based upon that information the staff then reciprocated and dug that information out for me. I think we all are aware of the fact that competitive bidding is of some consequence, particularly in certain areas of the province where maybe it's the timing of the year, maybe it's for various other reasons, the location of the aggregate, but I think it's very important that we clearly point out the fact, competition means we're going to get better prices.

 

MR. SAMSON: I'm just curious then, were there tenders issued in 2010, last paving season, that also would have only had one bidder on those tenders?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I just want to add this note if I may, member. There were additional tenders in 2010 which would be made available as well and thank you, Mr. Fitzner, for clarifying that for me. It is crucially important that when it comes to information of this sort that we are aware of the fact that whatever part of the province we have it available, that the tenders are competitive based upon the dollars that are available. We want to be as open as possible with this information and we will be forthcoming with some of the details that you asked for.

 

MR. SAMSON: You indicated as well in your opening statement, you said that one company did half of all the work. I'm not sure if you were referring to the 13 tenders that only had one bidder or if you're referring to the entire tender process. I'm not sure if you meant 2010, 2009 or 2008, but you did make a comment along the line that one company did half of all the work in Nova Scotia. I'm just wondering two things; could you clarify what paving area you were referring to, and secondly, which company are you referring to?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: It's no secret that we're talking about Dexter Construction, they are the major player. In 2008-09, and when we look at the amount of projects that they continue to bid on - and if I may point out for the member, the fact is that Dexter has a very good reputation for doing good quality work. In certain areas around the province it's important to realize that they, on certain occasions, have been the only game in town. I think it's important that there is not any other way to say the fact that we want to have more competition and Dexter is one of those companies that will benefit from that competition hopefully. Whatever time of the year it is or whatever part of the province it is in, we want to make sure that taxpayers are not going to be paying higher prices when there is only one bidder on some of these contracts.

 

MR. SAMSON: Thank you, I appreciate that. I figured that was the company in question but just wanted to make sure. Just on that, it is my understanding that when a company is awarded a tender, whatever the tender amount is, there is a holdback that the department maintains, I guess as insurance that the work is properly carried out. I'm just curious if you could briefly describe how much is that holdback? I don't remember if it is 10 per cent or if it is more than that. How long is that maintained and who is responsible to come at the end of a project and to be able to determine whether everything was done as required.

 

We've seen some examples where paving has been done, a significant amount of money has been spent, only then to see that there are areas where the road is collapsing, where a culvert that should have been replaced wasn't replaced and things of that nature. There is nothing more disheartening than when you see a road finally get paved to only have to see crosscuts being made on that new section of road, because of errors made in the initial paving. I'm just curious, what's the holdback amount? How long is it held for and what criteria are used to determine satisfaction after a job is completed?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I have some of that information, member, and if I don't get it correct I would certainly appreciate the advice of Mr. Fitzner on this. From my understanding and what I've been aware of before, because I asked similar questions, there is an initial 10 per cent held back until 90 per cent of the job is completed and then it reverts to five per cent. Then there's a further evaluation when it comes down to 60 days. There is some toing and froing, there has to be some give and take when it comes to the projects because most of the projects are completed on time and they are suitably well done but there has to be that initial holdback of 10 per cent, which can be reduced to five per cent when 90 per cent of the job is done.

 

MR. SAMSON: I'm curious about whether there's any discussion about reviewing the way that's done because for the most part in Nova Scotia, paving is done in the summer months but you really only get to see how well it is holding up after you have gone through a winter cycle. Unfortunately, by the time that has happened, the contractor is gone, the payment has been made and there doesn't seem to be any recourse left for the department or for taxpayers if the job was not satisfactory, especially after one winter when you start seeing sinking along the road, breaking up of the pavement, various issues that might come up so I'm just curious, are there any discussions underway between the department and possibly road builders as to what type of guarantee, for example, might be able to be implemented in order to better protect the investments being made by Nova Scotia taxpayers on road construction?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member for this question. I recall recently in the House, I believe it was the member for Cape Breton West who introduced a petition concerned with the fact of a road project that had just been completed last paving season and that there had been resulting cracks and people in the community were concerned about the quality of the job.

 

At this stage there's a warranty in place. The warranty has been for one year but recently it has been increased to three years. The warranty, in fact, is based upon our engineers out looking at the job and, you are quite correct, you make a very good suggestion particularly when it comes to surviving the tough winter in one particular part of the province or another, when we're looking at the fact of how the road work is going to stand up.

 

The particular project that the member - and if I am remiss on this I apologize but I believe it was the member for Cape Breton West who brought the petition forward with a complaint from residents about a particular paving job - that is being currently looked at and I want you to know that there are penalties involved when the work is not correctly done or not up to standard.

 

MR. SAMSON: I'm wondering if the minister could advise, let's say in the last two years, for example, have you exercised your rights, has the department exercised its rights under these warranty provisions, where it has been determined that work carried out by a contractor wasn't deemed to be satisfactory?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I knew that was the answer but I didn't know the number. Yes, on a number of occasions that has been the situation but I'd have to get back to the member on the specifics. I am aware of the fact that when there are complaints of this nature and the quality of the job is not up to what we consider acceptable, it has been dealt with in the past.

 

MR. SAMSON: I'm not sure what your response would be to this but how do we let Nova Scotians know this? Is there any way for your department to give us that information here, so that we may make Nova Scotians aware because at the end of the day this is a significant amount of taxpayers' dollars that are being spent? I think people expect good value for their money and if they're not getting that, I think Nova Scotians have a right to know which contractor and under what projects work was deemed to be not satisfactory.

 

I can tell you, and I'm sure the minister knows this, especially in rural Nova Scotia, we've got a lot of road engineers out in rural Nova Scotia - they don't have their paperwork but we've got a lot of road engineers. I can tell you the calls I get, you'd swear that these people have many years of training in engineering.

 

This is an issue, especially in rural Nova Scotia, that people pay very close attention to, so I guess I'm curious if the minister could advise if there is any way of disclosing to the members of the House and to Nova Scotians which specific projects has the department exercised its legal rights under the warranty provisions?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I want to assure the member, in the case of the recent petition and the concern about that section, staff is looking at that and I give the commitment to that particular member that I want to know more about this.

 

I do know what you said earlier in terms of how they might not have that little ring on their finger but they are road engineers because they travel that road, they know that road. They understand every bump and grind that they might have to put up with as they are making their way to and from work or their place of recreation.

 

As I've said, and again I don't want to take a lot of time, but I want to quote the member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley who said to me on one occasion, how important it was - and I know the member for Eastern Shore has said the same thing to me - how important it is that we show people that we haven't forgotten about them, that their road, that road that is at the end of their lane, at the end of their driveway, is the most important road in Nova Scotia. When they see some work done on it, that says to them that they haven't forgotten about us in Halifax, whether it is something as simple as just doing some ditch work or whether it is clearing off some alders - I'm sure the member for Digby-Annapolis will be asking me about.

 

I want you to know, this information is available on the Web site but if, as an MLA, I am aware of the fact that there is a road in your area that has not been done correctly or there is dissatisfaction with it, I would give you the commitment that as the MLA who is the current Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, I would take back that information and you can make it available any way you wanted to in your community.

 

When people have concerns about a job that is not well done that is based on their experience, what they had before and what they have now and we have to compliment them for saying - I know that a member such as yourself, who is in touch with your community, I mean if you hear from a certain segment of the population that is using route whatever or road whatever and it was worked on last year and this year it is not in good shape, I know that you will dutifully bring it to my attention and I am obliged to get back to you with a response from my staff and I am sure you will put it out in the local media one way or another in your community.

 

Again, some of this information is available on the Web site, otherwise we'll have to do it project by project as they come forward. I know it's important because of value for dollar. This is not a question of the road builders but there are certain times and certain occasions where the job isn't quite up to snuff and I think we're obliged to make sure that when someone who is a constituent of yours calls and brings a particular concern to your attention that this road work wasn't done, in my opinion, without their engineering ring on their finger, as well as it should have been done, we have to get back to them. I want you to bring that to my attention and then I will get back to you with information from my staff.

 

That says that those particular Nova Scotians are taking pride in the road work they've seen done. If it's done correctly they are appreciative of it but we have to make sure that it stands up to the test. Of course the test in this country is some winter weather to see how it's going to be.

 

The major point is - and I thank you for it - open lines of communication between you, as a member, and myself as the minister, should continue on the topic.

 

MR. SAMSON: Thank you, and I'm sure Mr. Fitzner would be able to acknowledge that one thing my office has done is certainly written significant amounts of letters, either to our area manager or to the Ministers of Transportation, both past and current, and we'll certainly continue to do so.

 

I certainly appreciate you indicating that if it was an issue locally in Richmond but I would certainly encourage your department to try to find a way of getting this information out to all Nova Scotians because while it might not be in Richmond County, I know my constituents would be interested in knowing that their tax dollars spent in Guysborough or Eastern Shore on a paving project that wasn't done to specifications is something that would be of interest.

 

As well, and I think it's also a means of holding the companies that do paving in our province accountable as well, in knowing that if Nova Scotians are aware that their job performance on the specific tender was not what was required, I'm sure Nova Scotians will remind them in their own ways whenever they come to do work in their own community. I think it's in all of our best interests to have that type of information shared with Nova Scotians.

 

One of the things that I wanted to highlight as well is last year was the first time that I saw it done, where one of the local engineers from Port Hawkesbury, we had a major paving project coming through the community of West Arichat and this was an initiative of the engineer Chasta Boudreau, where she decided to hold a public meeting once the tender had been awarded. Basically it was held at the local community hall and she brought another lady with her who I believe was at the time responsible for bridge engineering-type work. Basically they were there to just answer questions about the paving.

 

I have to tell you that it was well attended. I think if more people knew exactly what was available - I think there was a letter sent in all their mailboxes, letting them know this was going to take place. She basically answered questions from people who wanted their pipe replaced in their driveway to how was traffic going to be limited during that period of time, to a whole host of issues. I can tell you that's probably one of the road work projects that took place in my 13 years that I had the fewest amount of calls on because she dealt with most of the issues right at the start. She made it very clear that any issues they had to call her directly and to let her know as soon as possible, so she could try to make sure, if people were concerned that a cross culvert should be replaced that she would be able to look into it and try to get the contractor to address it.

 

I thought it was very wise, on behalf of the department, I thought it was a great way of reaching out to the communities that are being impacted and I think at the end of the day it saved a lot of phone calls and a lot of headaches, because of the fact that she was able to address their concerns and look into them even before the project started.

 

I certainly hope you would pass on my comments to Chasta and to the staff at Port Hawkesbury. I think it's certainly an initiative I would encourage your department to look into doing in other communities, especially in rural communities where people take such an interest in road work and the impact it is going to have on them and on their community while it is taking place.

 

One of the other issues I want to raise with you is you have put out your 5-year plan and we're going into year one of that plan. One of the roads that is certainly of great interest to myself and the people of Cape Breton is the upgrades on Route 4, between St. Peters and Sydney. I guess at this point I've been watching the tenders and I haven't yet seen the tender for the year one of that specific section of road so I'm just curious if you could update me on the status of that tender and when we could expect that tender to be called for the work from the Cape Breton County line heading west into Richmond County?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: If I may, member, Ms. Boudreau, of course, should be congratulated. That has happened in my community also because the key thing is that you have someone who can say, I have a number I can call, I have somebody who has got a concern about a culvert or a particular issue that for that person is very important to them as the paving project you mentioned.

 

I know in the Prospect Road communities there is a huge issue when it comes to traffic because there are so many people going to and from Halifax and they want to make sure the traffic isn't blocked in certain parts of the - it's a rural part of Halifax County but the huge majority of people who live there in the fishing villages unfortunately - I say it that way, in a complimentary way I want you to know - they are no longer on the water, they are working in downtown Halifax.

 

I recall the engineer who did that project two years, two summer ago, when he made his telephone number available and he was in various halls and various local take-outs and restaurants where he would say, I am the engineer for the project and if you need to contact me, here's my number and he would leave his business card in various locations. He would say to me - using my first name, Bill - if you come upon somebody who has a concern about the issue, tell them to call me at this number and there's my cell number. I'll tell you, that was a piece of public relations that went very well done because of that member of staff who did it so well. He did it so well, in fact, he got promoted but that's another topic. So Ms. Boudreau, the particular comments will be passed on to her, I assure you, I thank you for that.

 

St. Peter's highway. You know I've been going through executive assistants one after another in my department - I don't know, it must be something about me because when my newest executive assistant, of course, was on the recent road trip with me and when I told him I wanted to go to Soldier's Cove, he was intrigued - where was Soldier's Cove? Well, I said, it's on a section of the road that I think we're going to get a real example of what Cape Breton roads should not be like. So, to his credit, he did the driving and I did the inspecting of the road as we stopped here and we stopped there. It's the member for Richmond who brought that particular section of road to my attention in the past.

 

The answer to the question, and I have it written here, you're going to get the information very soon. That's from Mr. Fitzner, okay, so it's not soon, it's very soon.

 

I do know firsthand that the number one thing that people like to know is that when they look at a section of road they can say, is this going to be done over three years, for example? So we're going to do this section this year, that section the next year, so people can get their head around the fact of what is going to be done.

 

He is no longer my new executive assistant but Brandon Rose, when we were actually going through that section of road that as it came into your area, we began to realize this certainly is part of the transportation system in Cape Breton that needs a major upgrade and it will get that upgrade, I assure you because as you well know, of course, people look at the scenic way to see Cape Breton and Heaven forbid, I'd have to pick one route over another but going to and from Sydney, maybe because of my current - well definitely because of my current position, I like to go one way and come back the other way.

 

I must tell you, it's something about how I travel when I am on my own and when my wife was alive and we traveled through that section, we loved to go the St. Peter's way because you know you didn't have the traffic in terms of the other route along the Highway No. 104 but, more importantly, it was an opportunity to be able to pull off and see some great views, particularly from Irish Cove or Soldier's Cove or some of those other places. As I travel along that section of the road I always try to impress everybody, that's where Al MacNeil's bungalow is. Of course people would say to me, what's a bungalow? I'd say, well, I mean his cottage so we leave that aside.

 

So not to go too far down off the beaten track with this particular road, I know the No. 4 how important it is to your community and how important it is to Cape Breton and that particular section of Cape Breton and as Mr. Fitzner has written down here for me, very soon you'll get that information.

 

MR. SAMSON: I certainly appreciate that, especially my criticism over the years, along with municipal council, is that nobody expected that entire road was going to get paved in one year but each year the committee was left guessing as to which section was going to be paved, was there even going to be any paving, so the whole question was can we at least see a plan so we see it is coming?

 

As I said at the time you released it, I certainly complimented you at the time and do so again, that now the residents can look and know exactly what they can expect each year. The reason I asked this is because they were getting a bit nervous and wondering why they have not seen the tender yet and certainly wanted some assurances that there was not going to be any change in that plan. I will certainly be more than happy to inform my constituents that a tender will be coming shortly on that.

 

I do know that the minister as well has issued a tender for the paving of the Lower River Cleveland Road in Richmond County as well, approximately seven kilometres, that basically takes you from Exit 44, I believe, on Highway No. 104 right over to the old No. 4 highway, which I believe one of the constituents told me she wouldn't live long enough to see it repaved. I'm certainly looking forward to visiting with her and I'm pretty sure she's still in great health and telling her that it won't be long before she will get to see that and not have to worry and have that burden with her for the rest of her days.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: . . . to interrupt you, member, but maybe sometime if it is appropriate, because I know my travels this summer will involve a couple of trips to a certain part of New Waterford in particular for reasons that will remain personal, but I can assure you that if we can arrange that meeting together I'd love to go with you to meet that lady.

 

MR. SAMSON: Sure, and quite ironically, her brother-in-law is a former deputy minister of Nova Scotia and I think she was actually hoping he may be able to exert some influence but unfortunately, he retired without that tender ever being called. In this case she will clearly see that it was other powers that played a role in having that tender called.

 

As the minister indicated, when you did have the chance to visit Richmond County, there were two areas that we had the chance to concentrate on; that was the situation in Little Anse, as well as the wharf down in Little Harbour. The minister will probably recall that the road leading to the wharf, while not long, is still a gravel road. Crab season has now started, which means that 18-wheelers are travelling basically on an almost daily basis and lobster season starts this Sunday so that will assure that numerous 18-wheelers will be traveling each day on this.

 

The minister saw for himself what the situation is, this wharf is the economic heart of that community. They don't ask for too much in that area but one of the things they are asking for is a modern road, in order to be able to travel to and from their place of work and a place which generates so much tax revenue for the Province of Nova Scotia.

 

I'm curious, I know that your department did commit to putting in a counter on the road. That was done. I haven't seen the results of that data but I'm wondering if the minister could indicate to us what course of action or plan his department has been working on in regard to addressing the concerns of the fishermen and residents of the Mombourquette Road/Little Harbour Road?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, I know I've heard the member speak recently and I'm just going to make a few comments and then I can get the specific information through to the member. I have heard him speak in the House on a couple of occasions and see firsthand that the economic heart is the absolutely truthful way to put it. The results of the road count of course will indicate, as I'm sure the information you showed me that particular day. That's a busy section of road, particularly at this time of the year when the crab season gets underway. I'll come back to that, I assure you, when Mr. Fitzner has specifics for me.

 

I just want to, if I may in this case, compliment this particular member but all members who are present because you know when I have the occasion to meet with local staff and they talk about their priorities, I guess the key factor when I have local staff say to me, this is our local priority and it's also the priority of the local MLA, that he or she as the MLA is doing his or her job in such as manner as they are in tandem and in supportive of because they feel comfortable - and I know you do, as the member for Richmond - feel comfortable interacting with the local staff and pointing out, you know you've heard from this number of people, you are aware of when this road was last worked on.

 

To the other members who are present also, I see some members of my side of the House who also do the same thing. That says that the two of them are meshed and are working together because the last thing that can happen, and I can point out specific examples although I don't know if I am allowed to refer to somebody who is not here but the member for Colchester North specifically brought a road to my attention that she believed should have been on the list or further up on the list. Through some negotiations back and forth, the member for Colchester North and I reached the agreement, along with staff, that there would be some adjustments to that - local staff, combined with the fact of the local MLA, if I can say it this way, singing from the same song sheet. I don't mean to digress but I want to compliment members present for that.

 

Now if Mr. Fitzner's writing was better, I could probably do this but if you don't mind, Mr. Chairman, this is about the traffic counter. The traffic count has been taken and it will be rated to see if it warrants for paving. I do know the last part and I don't mean to - we can certainly make that traffic count available. There's been no decision made yet on that particular section of the road and I know how important it is to your community and I assure the member it will not be forgotten.

 

MR. SAMSON: I appreciate that because over the years previous administration the standard answer was, we don't pave gravel roads, there are too many paved roads, we can't keep up with paved roads. Residents are just sick and tired of hearing that. You have a number of new homes that were built along this road. Again, if one is just to look at the numbers of revenue that is being created from that wharf that is going directly into provincial coffers.

 

It's not a long section of road, as the minister saw for himself, but it clearly is one that needs to be addressed and the argument that we don't do gravel roads is just unacceptable and I'm at least pleased to hear that it is still under active consideration by the minister. I know that he certainly appreciates from his own riding how important the fishery remains to our communities and how it is the economic heart of certain areas. Certainly in Richmond County the growth of the crab industry and the lobster industry in the last number of years has been tremendous.

 

Again, as I said, the amount of revenue that it creates for the provincial coffers certainly, I believe, warrants having this road, which I believe is just under one kilometre, being paved and being in such a state that it can continue to handle the heavy traffic that is there. I certainly do look forward to receiving some information from Mr. Fitzner on that, on the traffic count. I know the fishermen down there have been asking for an update.

 

I have to say that they were very impressed that they got the chance to speak to you directly when you were down, both the local residents and the fishermen on very short notice. They weren't very impressed with your Bruins attire but needless to say, they were pleased that they had the chance to speak to the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal on their local wharf on their own turf, if I can use that type of language. They were impressed and I can tell the minister they would be even more impressed if he announced the tender for the paving of that Little Harbour Road.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I don't mean to take the time from the member, I've said that a couple of times. You know that's not just any gravel road, we're looking at gravel roads particularly I still think in my community some of the roads that are used to connect other parts of a paved section of road to another paved section of road.

 

From my understanding, that's a gravel road that is important economically and important because of the fact of the fishery but also it has to be, if it is going to be properly maintained because of the type of traffic that is on the road. I mean those are big trucks that are operating to and fro, coming out of there, and that has to be given some extra consideration.

 

It is something that we've talked about, I've talked about it with staff and it is something that we will address, I assure you.

MR. SAMSON: Thank you and as per your suggestion, I did have the opportunity to meet with Mr. Fitzner and with your deputy minister to talk about some of the priorities in Richmond County. One of the roads that I wanted to raise again is the road in Cape Auget which is on Isle Madame and it is a community just basically opposite the harbour of Arichat. I had the opportunity to travel on that road, actually went for some seafood chowder on Good Friday. I can tell you, minister, that road is a dangerous road. It is to the point where certain sections are barely passable. You almost have to come to a complete stop and even at that, the amount of pavement that has actually disappeared, that is completely gone, is such that everyone in the community is fearful that something is going to happen on that road and there is going to be a major accident.

 

I actually got a phone call from the principal of the Acadian school in Arichat, École Beau-Port when she heard me on the local media talking about having raised the concerns about local roads. She called me to tell me that one of the kids in that community, travelling on the bus, sustained injuries while on the bus, because of the bus hitting one of the rough sections of that road. Now when we are to the point where kids are getting hurt on the school bus because of the condition of the road, we've got a serious problem.

 

The reason that this road - which I am sure the minister would say well I hear stories like that from all around the province - what makes this road a little bit different is that it is home to the Clearwater live lobster holding facility which holds 1.5 million pounds of live lobster. The result of that is that this road has 18-wheelers travelling on it, loaded with lobster, on a daily basis. Like so many of our rural roads it is a narrow, twisty road and right now sections of the pavement are just gone. So locals and employees of that facility have to travel on a road where they are meeting 18-wheelers coming, that are trying to avoid the rough sections of the road and it is only a matter of time before a significant accident takes place.

 

One of our concerns is that, first of all, clearly I don't think anyone from your staff would suggest anything other than - and even local area managers indicated that the road needs to be repaved and needs to be fixed. Our concern is that we are now being told there is going to be a significant reduction in RIM funding for our area this year so there's concern that even that is not going to be an option to address the significant problems with that road.

 

I'm curious whether the minister could indicate, is that road still under consideration for a possible tender for repaving this construction period or is there anything that he can personally commit to, to find the funding necessary to make sure that this road, at least the most disastrous sections of it, are addressed in the very near future before we have a significant accident or, even worse, loss of life take place on that road due to its current condition?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member for that question and those comments. Staff has talked to me about it as a follow-up to the meeting that you held - and my apologies for not being available for that particular session. I know lobster is valuable to the economy but not as valuable as a little person who is injured on a school bus, so we'll put that in balance.

 

That particular road we'll be using as much local dollars as there is money to keep it up to scratch for this year but it looks at the possibility of next paving season that it would be one of our priorities, in terms of this department. It would be something that needs attention.

 

Again, I don't want to - but I'm doing it again, of course - I don't want to take time from the member to talk about RIM money and cutbacks but I do know that we plan to get a good bang for our buck this summer and we'll be using RIM dollars in your constituency on that particular road to make sure that it is as well maintained as we can, before we decide what is going to happen the next paving season.

 

I know those words are not great solace for you, considering the concerns that you have, particularly the bus incident. As you all know, of course, how important local RIM dollars are to our communities, particularly in the rural areas. There will be available money which we will make sure is addressed in your constituency with RIM dollars. Rural Impact Mitigation is actually what it is called, not Road Improvement Money but that's the acronym for what it is supposed to be. Those dollars are of some consequence and I know we've had to make some tough decisions in terms of maybe there won't be that amount of dollars there but we're going to make sure that we get as good a bang for our buck when it comes to RIM money locally as possible.

 

MR. SAMSON: I guess being that we are into estimates, I'm wondering could you indicate the line item that deals with the RIM funding and exactly what was the total reduction that took place from last year's RIM funding to this fiscal year's RIM funding?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Now I'm going to be able to, while they look up that amount of money for you, they are going to be able to dig that out for you, so I thank you for this specific question. It's under highway maintenance and it's under summer construction, correct? Roads and bridges - it's down $5 million in total, across the province.

 

If I may, Mr. Chairman, just before I move off that, I know that amount of money what concerns members opposite because they, of course, want to make sure members on this side of the House, or that side of the room, want to make sure that RIM dollars are looked at very carefully. I can assure you that we are going to make sure that we use those dollars as effectively as possible when it comes to projects locally.

 

If I have the answer correctly, it is listed as a line item under Highways and Bridges, yes, and it is broken up into the areas that I have here in front of me, but the total amount is $5 million.

 

MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, without tying up our time today, I'm wondering at some point if your staff could provide me with what exactly that means for my area, for example, the Port Hawkesbury depot, if you could have staff give me what were the 2010 numbers for RIM funding compared to what the proposed 2011 numbers are. I don't suspect that you probably have that readily available, or maybe you do, but I'm wondering if you could provide me with that, just to get a better sense of what exactly we should be expecting or not expecting for work this year in regards to what our local funding will look like.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, that specific question or that specific answer will be given to each member when they require it, when they want to know what it was previously locally and what they're going to get this time locally. That information I don't really have right here at my fingertips, but it will be available to you.

 

I remind other members of this committee who want to know a similar answer to that question - I certainly don't want all members of the Legislature to call at the same time looking for RIM dollars, or what compares this year as compared to a previous year but you certainly are privileged, that's not information that we are going to keep from you.

 

MR. SAMSON: So do I still need to call, or can I assume now that by raising it that I'll get that information?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: You've raised it; you are at the top of the list.

 

MR. SAMSON: Perfect, that's always the advantage of going first in Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal estimates, I guess.

 

I think I've said this to the minister before and I think Mr. Fitzner has certainly said this already, my area manager and the operations supervisors, it just amazes me each year what they are able to do with that RIM funding and the amount of work that they have been able to carry out, especially with some of the resurfacing that has taken place on some of our smaller lanes, I guess you could call them, very short roads that we have that we'd never be able to get from a full tender. They've done a great job there, which has been very well received by the local residents and certainly made it much easier on their maintenance budget once those roads have been resurfaced.

 

I know we are all quite concerned about the reduction in funding this year and we'd certainly encourage the minister, when it comes to next year's budget, to - certainly he has our support in lobbying the Minister of Finance in ensuring that as much money as possible goes into that RIM account because the local crews certainly know what is needed and I know in my area they've certainly done a great job in dealing with a number of the smaller roads and lanes, as well with doing some significant patching on some of our other roads as well. I look forward to seeing the numbers and certainly hope that next year the minister can appear in front of us to tell us about the increase in the RIM funding rather than a decrease in that.

 

One of the other issues that I wanted to raise that I just found of interest, you did mention the Cobequid Pass and the unfortunate incident that took place a couple of years ago in a bad snowstorm. I do notice that there is now an overhead sign before you enter the Cobequid Pass, from either direction, which does give some information to motorists. Who paid for that installation and for the upkeep of that new sign - electronic signage I guess is what it would be called - who paid for that? Is it the owners of the Cobequid Pass or is it the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: That was taken care of by TIR because that was part of the response to the fact of the overall response to what happened on November 19^th. There wasn't that opportunity to get that information out to people. That was one of the most important recommendations - I shouldn't put it ahead necessarily of the better coordination when it came to local people on the ground who know what was actually happening, as opposed to whether it was the RCMP or whether it was the local plow crews or whatever else, that coordination, the key thing was better handling of information.

 

The second part, of course, is getting it out to the public. I know how important those signs are. I knew or I was aware of the fact that aside from who paid for it - maybe this is one of your questions coming in advance of what can be put on that sign. I don't want to get too far down that road because of the fact that sometimes we have to say no to what can be put on the sign.

 

I can use some specific examples of a soldier who was returning from Afghanistan and the family wanted to acknowledge his return to Nova Scotia by putting it on the sign. It was decided that that wasn't an appropriate use of the sign. That was no reflection on this veteran who was returning from Afghanistan, but when there are particular issues of consequence when it comes to road safety, that is the priority for the signs, that is the continued priority for the signs.

 

I just mention that in passing, but the answer to the question is the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal provincially took care of those signs, the costs for them.

 

MR. SAMSON: Just my own curiosity, were the operators of the Cobequid Pass approached on this issue? I guess from a taxpayer's perspective, why aren't they footing the bill for the installation and maintenance of these signs, being that they are the operator of the section of highway in question, which drivers are required to pay a toll in order to drive on? I'm just curious, my own curiosity, were they approached or why are they not being asked to pick up the cost of this rather than the taxpayers?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: The road, of course, is serviced by the provincial department. At the time I was not part of the negotiations on what was going to be paid by who. I guess I could say to you that as the minister at the time, I was interested in the fact that the signs were there, the response was appropriate as soon as possible. The fact that it was paid for by the department was not something I questioned, but considering the fact that I wasn't part of the negotiations at the time, I believe it was Minister Scott who was in the Chair as the response to the report, that's how it was done.

 

Sorry for the evasive answer, but I don't know the answer to that.

 

MR. SAMSON: I'm just curious, and maybe the minister doesn't have this information right now but if his staff would be aware, what was the total cost for the installation of those two signs?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: We'll have to get back to you with that number. I never heard the number myself.

 

MR. SAMSON: Again, just curiosity - as far as the Cobequid Pass is concerned, will Nova Scotians ever own that road or is the agreement such that it will always be operated by the private consortium that is operating it now? Or is there a clause in there that at some point down the road it reverts back to the Province of Nova Scotia or will it continue to be owned by the consortium in perpetuity?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: There's a 30-year agreement in place. I plan to offer in the next election and hopefully be the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal again, but I can't give you any assurances as to what is going to happen at the end of the 30-year time period. I don't mean to be glib with the answer.

 

I know the Highway No. 104 consortium is an ongoing issue, particularly for people who have issues with toll roads. I'm well past that, aside from the fact of where it was built. We've got a working agreement with that particular company and it is servicing both the public of Nova Scotia and the company quite well, from what I understand.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Member, just a time notation, you have a little over 10 minutes remaining in your hour.

 

MR. SAMSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'm just curious, the 30-year agreement, what year are we in now? I'm trying to remember when that was built, so I'm just curious. Are we at the halfway mark yet? Where are we at with that 30-year agreement?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: These bright people on either side of me are trying to divide something into 30, I believe. I can remember some of the optics of the day, but I would think we are half way through, are we not? (Interruption) In 2012-13 we will be half way through. Okay. I was a history teacher, I wasn't good at division or multiplication.

 

MR. SAMSON: Well, I was about to say that you and I have both been here 13 years and it was built before we got here, so I'm assuming it's got to be at least 13 years into that agreement, so we must be at least near the halfway mark.

 

I'm just curious, I guess it's still a ways ahead, but are there any discussions taking place as to what happens after the 30-year mark? Is it the intention that the government will take over responsibility of that road and, second, if I can ask the question, is it the intention that those tolls will be removed at the end of the 30-year agreement?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I certainly don't want to intend like I'm dismissing the question, but considering what's on my agenda as a minister, that's not a topic that I'm prepared to - I appreciate the question, but it's not a topic that I'm prepared to look at in any depth at this stage in my particular mandate as a minister.

 

I understand that for some people it is a concern for sure and what will happen at the end of that, I mean you are a younger man than myself, I mean you can still be in this House - you could be the Premier at some time perhaps in the future for better days, okay? I'll leave that in your capable hands, because it's not on my radar screen at all.

 

MR. SAMSON: A couple of quick snappers: I had fun with Angus MacIsaac when he was the Minister of Transportation on this so I'll do the same with you. Are there any current discussions taking place about putting any new toll roads in Nova Scotia?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: None.

 

MR. SAMSON: There are a number of mayors and wardens who have suggested that the tolls should return on the Canso Causeway. Is the current government in your department looking at returning tolls on the Canso Causeway?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: No. Sorry to cut in even before the microphone light comes on - no.

 

MR. SAMSON: There's a certain gentleman, a Cape Breton legend, Captain John Cabot Trail, who suggested that we get rid of the Canso Causeway. I'm curious, is your department looking at the possibility of getting rid of the Canso Causeway?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: "Down with the causeway" - but what would I do without having the opportunity to be able to go across there and see what a great amount of work, particularly with those new guardrails that they've put in there and some of the - boy, I'll tell you, when it blows across that stretch of water. There were 50 pipers or 49 pipers that day, one didn't show up and that was the kiss of the death that the causeway would eventually come out of there - do I hear the legend correctly or am I wrong with that?

 

MR. SAMSON: That's it, sounds about right. In all seriousness, I guess, you've probably heard that there are some concerns about the integrity of the causeway . . .

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Yes.

 

MR. SAMSON: . . . especially underneath some of the sections that are not visible to the eye. I'm just curious, is there any work that is being planned? I think it was last year that there was some amount of rock replacement which took place on both sides of the causeway. I'm curious if there's any intention to have work carried out again this year to address some of the areas that have become exposed over the years along the causeway?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you for the question. That's one of those parts of - it's certainly ongoing. There was a very thorough underwater inspection, we're quite satisfied with what we have right now, but that doesn't mean that with the next storm or with the next event that there could be changes made. We're going to continue to monitor the situation, we've going to particularly look at some of the improvements around the guardrail.

 

I know that those are just things on the surface, but there was an underwater inspection done. It's a pretty rough section of the North Atlantic when it blows in through there. It's an ongoing concern and the matter is going to continue to be looked at, I assure you.

 

MR. SAMSON: Is it safe to say there is no plan to work for the 2011 construction season on the Canso Causeway - is that a safe statement to make?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: The only work that will be done on the Canso Causeway this season will be guard rail work. Thank you for the question.

 

MR. SAMSON: I appreciate that. I guess just one final subject which we could talk at quite a length about is the twinning of Highway No. 104 from New Glasgow to the Canso Causeway. This is something that the residents have been waiting for a long time and right now they're seeing bits and pieces that are being done. Again, it's one of those where people are looking for the vision as to what they can expect in the next number of years. Some of the work being carried out, the Antigonish by-pass doesn't connect with the other section of highway so that's another section of road similar to the No. 4 for many years, where people just don't know what the overall plan is of the department or when they can actually expect to see when the different sections are going to start to connect together.

 

So that's one where I would certainly encourage the minister if he could work on, let's say, a five-year plan for that specific twinning project that would at least allow us, as elected members, and the residents of eastern Nova Scotia to appreciate when that work is going to be carried out, because it has been a long time, this is the major link between Sydney to Halifax, as well as all the traffic coming from Newfoundland and Labrador.

 

If I'm not mistaken, I remember for years that we're led to believe that Highway No 101 had the highest amount of fatalities of any highway when, in fact, when we did the research a few years ago, it was actually Highway No. l04, between New Glasgow and the Canso Causeway which had the highest number of fatalities. So, unfortunately, that's the case because the amount of traffic, especially heavy traffic, but there doesn't seem to have been enough awareness on that issue.

 

I'm curious if the minister could just briefly tell us, is there a five-year plan, is there a two-year plan, is there a 10-year plan, as to what sections are going to be done, when and where, in regards to twinning, from New Glasgow - I guess Sutherlands River now - to the Canso Causeway?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if I can answer that briefly and I'm not going to point fingers at federal ministers who have a great deal of influence, or had a great deal of influence around the recent Cabinet table. I guess the key point that I would bring to your attention is that we do need to negotiate a new agreement to replace the Build Canada Fund because those are appropriate dollars which are used in this region, with a great deal of input from the federal minister, whoever sits around that Cabinet Table and represents the interests of this province.

 

Mr. MacKay has certainly done - and again, I want to compliment the fact that I have had a very good working relationship with Peter MacKay in terms of his openness to some of the suggestions, and the toing and froing when it comes to getting access to dollars. It's always an interesting experience to deal with a federal Cabinet Minister, but it's also important to be available to him or her when they want to speak to you about a particular issue, so we need to negotiate a new agreement to replace the Build Canada Fund.

 

I am aware of the fact, of course, and I know the member opposite was very much involved in a process this past summer when there were the unfortunate difficulties with automated sign and the unfortunate holdup that particular weekend. It was during the Celtic Colours, if I remember correctly. Again, thank you to you locally, but also to the people there.

 

A great deal of traffic; the accident statistic is the one that always jumps out at me, as a minister, you know that's a question that perpetually comes up, because of Highway No. 101, of course, and some of the difficulties we had with Highway No. 101, whether it is Highway No. 103 or Highway No. 104, I think the key thing, you've hit the nail on the head for me as a minister is that we need to know what's the plan, what year plan - is it five years, is it three years, as you said?

 

When we have the opportunity, come May 3^rd, I'm going to be a busy guy on May 3^rd if we go from - I'll do it on May 4^th because on May 3^rd I'll take care of the other issues when it comes to funding for the Convention Centre, but on May 4^th the topic would be, how are we going to operate with the new agreement under the Build Canada Fund?

 

I do know that I have information given to me right here under the 5-Year Plan, right? Okay. I don't have to repeat the 5-Year Plan to that member, you're aware of the current issues and where we're going with it, but I want you to know that it's an important part of the twinning project across the province, particularly when we're going anywhere beyond New Glasgow and Antigonish, up to the Port Hawkesbury-Strait area. It's an important area of the province and it has to be as safe as possible.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: That concludes the hour allocated to the Liberal caucus, the first hour allocated to the Liberal caucus. Mr. Minister, would you like a break at this time? We have been going for two hours, with two more hours to go today. Would you like a break now or perhaps in an hour's time?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Personally, I'm fine. I hear my veteran member on the council at this table. So when the moment of interruption takes place we don't take a break?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, we don't, we keep on going.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: No, we're fine.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, we will continue and certainly we recognize the member for Inverness to begin the questioning for the Progressive Conservative caucus.

 

The honourable member for Inverness.

 

MR. ALLAN MACMASTER: Tapadh leat, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, minister, and department for giving an opportunity to ask some questions.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: And thanks for the Gaelic as well.

 

MR. MACMASTER: I'd like to first of all thank the department staff who I've worked with closely for the people of Inverness, they've been excellent to work with. They are very patient, they are very attentive, they are reasonable and I know when it comes to a lot of times - we have a lot of roads in Inverness County, we have 2,300 kilometres of roads, so as you can imagine, we get a lot of requests at the office - and very worthy requests. As we know, there's only so much resource to go around and the department has been very helpful to me in trying to help people with expectations and also in trying to focus on areas that seem to be of most concern to the people of Inverness.

 

I'd like to begin by thanking the staff at all levels in the department for that. I do also want to make note of the minister's release of the five-year capital plan, it's something that I think makes a lot of sense. The planning likely means that tenders are going to be issued maybe well in advance of the construction season, which is going to save the province money. It means that we get more paving done, I think that's great. Also, I know there's a new evaluation for reviewing roads and determining which ones get paved. That also makes a lot of sense as well because if there's more of a scientific approach to it, then maybe we end up paving the roads that might not look the worst but they may be the ones that are most cost-effective ones to target for the future.

Maybe on that matter, I'd like to ask the minister my first question. This is on that new formula. I understand that when a road is reviewed, it takes into account - if there's, say, something for the community on that road, like a ball field or a community centre - it takes into account the number of people living on that road and I presume probably daily traffic volumes.

 

One of my concerns, which would be a concern for any rural area of the province, my fear is that some of the rural areas might not qualify for as many roads under that system of evaluation but they also may be - and it's hard to argue, if a rural area doesn't have the volume of a more urban road it's hard to argue that road deserves to be paved ahead of the more urban road.

 

I guess what I'm concerned about is that there could become an imbalance where a lot of the rural roads just keep getting passed over and, over time, would end up with a deficit, an infrastructure deficit for those areas. Of course I think of my own home area of Inverness but I think it's relevant right around the province. I'll let the minister comment on that.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: If I may take just a few minutes, member for Inverness, on this topic - no reflection on the fact that you're so fortunate to represent that area of the province but one of the most highly-promoted areas in our province is Inverness. It's the part of the province where my new son-in-law - well he's not new anymore, he's a father of a three-year old so I guess he's still new to me - the part of the province that he wanted to go see first, I think I very quickly confided to him that he wasn't going to go to Peggy's Cove with me; instead, he was going to go on the Cabot Trail with the family. We did go to Peggy's Cove after we returned here locally.

 

The balance is a key one. I look at when we look at how we determine what the criteria is, of course there is a certain amount of traffic but as the member for Richmond used his in example, particularly when you look at his area and the need for work on a certain road because of the business that's there, how important that particular business is to the economy of that small community. It might not be of the quality or quantity of traffic - I guess quantity is the key word - of Quinpool Road, that's not the issue we're talking about, we're talking about the fact that of course there are areas of this province where when it comes to school bus travel, when it comes to to and fro from school, when it comes to the amount of traffic or the type of traffic, road counters aside, that's not the issue. We're talking about how important a particular part of the province is when it comes to the economy of the province.

 

I'm sure that you probably have heard, and I know I personally have heard from a number of my friends who are bikers - they drive a motor bike, I have to be careful of that, a couple of them would love to be bikers if they didn't have to have real jobs - but I know they complain about certain roads to me, now that I'm the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, and I see the member for Digby who has joined us and I'm sure that I know how important the Wharf Rat Rally is to his particular community. I mean, that's not easy to measure when you say well, that's one particular event. Of course the northern New England States and people of course coming in from various parts of eastern Canada come to Digby for that reason. They need those good roads to travel on in that particular part of the province when they come to visit with is.

 

When we look at the economy and how important it is, ratings are determined, of course, based upon the area and making sure that everybody is going to get their fair share of the work. I guess the key thing is, to put it personally, for me, as a member who has a very urban core but then has a very rural part of his riding, I see the imbalance at times when people in the community will ask me, why did I recommend - this was when I was in Opposition, incidentally - why did I recommend that a certain section of the road down to one of the fishing villages would receive attention, as opposed to - Terence Bay is the community I'm talking about, I must take you there some time, where all the Slaunwhites and famous ball players are from - why would somebody in the urban core say, you know we deserve more of that pavement money than they are getting because they don't have the traffic, they don't have the economic needs in that community. But when you measure, particularly in the community of Terence Bay, when you measure how important the fishery is there, how important it is to make sure that the produce gets to and from market as quickly as possible, that has a huge role in the economy.

 

I must thank the department at the time for putting up with me, in Opposition. Can you imagine the difficulties I could cause for them sometimes when I didn't get my own way and I could get the floor of the Legislature. I can assure you that that's where you're going to continue to do your job and I encourage members opposite to bring those things to my attention.

 

The member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley is the example I often point to because he has often said to me, and I hope I quote him directly, when people in rural areas of the province see some work being done on their road, that work being done at the end of the government wharf or that work being done on the way to the campground, they can say quite clearly that where I live counts and not everything is going to be decided just based upon what happens in Halifax. I didn't quote you directly but it shows that the government of the day cares about that.

 

I want the member to know that balance always has concerned me - I'm always concerned about the fact that where the most people are is where we're going to continue to get the most bang for our buck but that's not the case when it comes to roads. I know the people - I don't know them all personally but I know the people who come to this province, particularly as tourists, they will go to see Citadel Hill, there's no doubt about it, and perhaps stay for a couple of nights in the hotels in downtown Halifax. Many of my friends would want to go to places such as Inverness, they want to go to the Margaree, they want to visit Cheticamp, they want to see the Acadian background.

 

I can talk about these things and I don't want to take your time from you but I want you to know that when it comes to it that it will be fairly done and it will not be strictly based upon those factors of how much road traffic, but what type of traffic was on the road.

 

How many tour buses use the Terence Bay Road was one of the arguments that I used at the time, tour buses and how they can get down off the so-called beaten track, if that's the appropriate way, out of the urban core because that's what people come to Nova Scotia for. Cities are cities but there's only one part of the province that you could probably take them into a small coastal community, they can pick up a little Gaelic, they can pick up a great opportunity to sit down and have a refreshment. Also, some great music is being played, that's why they're coming to that part of the province.

 

Again, I don't want to wax poetic here or eloquently, if I'm trying to be eloquent, but that balance, I want you to know, is something you can continue to bring to my attention, as a minister, because I know how important your region, and the Musquodoboit Valley region, for example, or down in Lunenburg - you know people can come to Halifax but they're not seeing Nova Scotia if they just stay in Halifax. That's no reflection on the capital city, they've got to get to Inverness, they've got to get down to Lunenburg and they've got to get to Terence Bay.

 

Anyway, sorry for the long-winded answer but thank you for the great question.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Inverness - you might want to add Guysborough to your list once in a while there. Thank you.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Minister, I'm just moving along. You mentioned something that I think is very important, you talked about businesses in rural areas and if there's a business in a particular area, the importance of the road that might connect that business. I know this was a matter we spoke about in Question Period last week and I hesitate to ask here because perhaps it would be better to do so, you and I on a separate occasion, perhaps at your office, but we talked a little bit about the East Margaree bridge.

 

I think the department is looking at replacing that bridge. One of the things - it's a hot issue in Inverness right now and people are concerned about the timing of when it might happen and I respect if it's a matter best discussed outside of estimates but perhaps I'll leave you an opportunity to comment.

 

MR. ESTERBROOKS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, welcome to the Chair. I don't need any of your comments, just keep pressing the button when my time is up. Thank you, member, for being in the Chair.

 

When I first was aware of another one of these difficulties because of a storm, having been in the Valley before - the Margaree Valley in this situation - I was always looking at the number of bridges and I had to get my geographical tour to make sure I kept one bridge separate from another. There is a plan for the bridges in the Margaree Valley. I wouldn't want to take the time now to actually go over it with you. I'm aware of some of the plans that we have, as a department, and hopefully those plans will be well received by your community. I think it would be more appropriate, if you don't mind, that we don't take the time here but that we have the opportunity at a convenient time for you, perhaps as soon as possible, I understand, because of the concerns from the local people, particularly the situation that is existing right there. As I said in the House and I say again to you here in committee, that the Margaree bridges will not be forgotten. At an appropriate time, let's get together or you get together with staff so that you can have the right information to pass on to your folks.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, minister, that would be very helpful. I will take that course of action. There is a business, just so you're aware, that is located right off the main road but you have to cross where this bridge would be, if it is replaced, and it's within eyesight of the road, the business, but if people can't get to it they're concerned about their profitability for the upcoming tourism season because they make wood products, like cutting boards and things like that, so it's a rather timely issue and I raise it here for the record and we will discuss it another time.

 

My next question - I won't ask a question just to put something else on the record. I know my colleague, the member for Richmond has mentioned it, was the twinning from Antigonish to the Canso Causeway. This is a significantly travelled route. In fact, I've heard that the traffic count on that route is actually heavier than between New Glasgow and Antigonish. Maybe it's the extra traffic from the Strait area, from the pulp mill and whatnot. That's an area that I know is a priority for southern Cape Breton and probably is for anybody who is on the mainland side as well who has to travel back and forth. That's an important route, we all look forward to that getting twinned. We understand that it's not something that can happen overnight, it requires lots of federal money but that's something that is important for southern Cape Breton Island.

 

My next question would be, perhaps you can provide some clarification. There was talk about the convention centre and about where the province would find dollars to support that. I know I received letters locally about people's concern that money that might have been invested in roads might get diverted away from that, towards the convention centre.

 

Perhaps I'll give you an opportunity to provide some clarification for people. If that's an unfounded concern it would be nice to hear your thoughts on it so I could pass that along to people who have raised the concern with myself.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Where to begin. Well, I guess, and I've said this to folks who have been in correspondence with me - I haven't said it in correspondence, I've said to them if they've been speaking to me directly - I can tell you quite honestly that I'm not a fan of e-mail; anybody who is going to spend their time typing something out to me - pick up the phone and let's have a chat. So I've taken it up with various people, particularly on the South Shore of Nova Scotia, who, in light of the comments of the MP of the day who made some comments that were ill-advised, if I can put it to you politely, and Mr. Baird, to his credit - and I thanked him when I had the opportunity to see him in Ottawa - Hon. John Baird very quickly pointed out that there was not - and Chuck Strahl reinforced it - that that was not the case, that there are designated dollars that we were asking to get from the federal government that were used for convention centres and that - excuse me for saying it this way - that pot of money was there for that reason and that reason alone and it was not being diverted from roads.

 

What I tried to say to the media through this and what I tried to say to Nova Scotians who engaged me in a telephone conversation on many occasions, where they were calling me at home - that happens, I don't mind picking up the phone on Sunday night and talking about various things - I don't prefer to talk about the convention centre on Sunday evenings but what concerned me, of course, was that they were saying, we should be giving these dollars to health care, we should be giving these dollars to schools and, Heaven forbid, me, as an old - with an emphasis on old - school principal who is going to forget all about the children, who is going to be pushing for a convention centre. Those were federal dollars that were available for that reason and that reason alone and that we were not robbing from Peter to pay Paul. If that's an inappropriate expression, I apologize for it.

 

I want you to know that I firmly believe, and I've said it so many times and I'm sure staff look at me like it is ingrained in me somewhere, nothing has consumed me more, since being the Transportation Minister. I wasted some time initially because of the fact that I would stay to staff - and Ms. Fraser is the perfect example - you've got to make some sense out of this for me because when this information arrived, I'll be quite candid with you, as a younger member, and I'm no longer a younger member, I was overwhelmed. I was overwhelmed by all this information and basically I felt - and I don't have a persecution complex but I felt I was under attack.

 

I always feel comfortable when I have the right information or the right people to advise me with the information. I guess if I can say it in front of Jane - more dumb questions I would ask as a minister and I know she'll probably say there's no such thing as a dumb question, and I know we've said that to our own children or I've said it to my own children in that way. I must admit that I had a difficult time keeping my cool when people were saying that after all the time we had with the five-year road plan and as proud - and I can use that word without being overly-egotistical about it - how proud I was that we had a road plan that was public - not perfect but it was public. People came up to me from all sides of the House, I heard from the member for Richmond, I heard from people in my own community, they said well, at least it's a plan and it's out there.

 

My response would be, why would I jeopardize, and I'm sorry to get personal, but why would I jeopardize my five-year road plan by diverting money from it for a convention centre? I had to reinforce people by saying, I firmly believe that roads are an integral part, particularly the economy from one end of this province to the other. That's not gibberish from the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, that's what I feel about safe roads, safe ways to get around, making sure that we do have the opportunity to show Nova Scotians that we know how important roads are.

 

I've heard all the surveys - I know I'm getting on a rant here but you're going to have to stick with me for a minute and I won't take too much of your time - I've heard all the surveys that say Nova Scotians care most about health care and a certain percentage that rank that as their number one priority. Yes, of course, health care. Nova Scotians care about schools and when it comes to roads, well that's down in the whatever percentile, in the single percentile.

 

You know that survey, they're not calling people in my community, they're not calling the people in your community. I mean I'm not questioning the fact that if I am asked what is the most important thing in my community, at my age I'm going to say health care, okay? Or I might say, when I was a little bit younger, schools are very important but under no circumstances am I going to take a second fiddle, if that's an appropriate expression, considering who is at the table, if I'm going to talk about the fact that roads are only getting 9 per cent of the support of the people in Nova Scotia as a top priority, maybe it's not the top priority but it's a really important part of what they see for Nova Scotia.

 

So the convention centre, come May 3^rd, is at the top of my priority list. I look forward to hearing from the new minister when he or she is appointed, of whatever government stripe, and that's of course because Minister Strahl is no longer there. Again, and I know I've said this to people in the media and they sort of look at me - and if there are members of the media here - here I go again. There are so many dollars available. It doesn't make any difference what the government of the day is, there's so many dollars available. How are we going to get the best bang for our buck, whether it's a federal Conservative member or whether it's a provincial NDP member, we're going to try to do what is best for the economy of our province.

 

I believe we need a convention centre in downtown Halifax. I'm not diverting, we are not diverting money from our roads budget to go the convention centre. I look forward to making that case again with the new minister when he or she is appointed, I look forward to still being the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, God willing, when that ribbon is cut for the convention centre. It's no reflection on roads, it's no reflection on hospitals, this region and this economy needs a convention centre because I know those folks - last comment, I promise - I know those folks who are coming here for a convention, let's use the Medical Association of Canada, we can't host in this province the medical doctors from one end to the other because we don't have the resources.

 

People say well, of course we could have all kinds of conventions here. We can't hold the Canadian Medical Association in this province, in this region, in this city, because we don't have the capacity. But when those doctors come here for that first Canadian Medical Association annual meeting, and there are doctors from all over this country, I want you to know that they're not just going to come for three days or four days, they are going to come for a week, two weeks, and they're going to come back and where they're going to go is to Inverness and they're going to go to Fortress Louisbourg, that's the important thing.

 

With that, I'll take my spot and not bother you much longer but I want you to know that there has not been, under any circumstances - and I'm looking forward to the opportunity if Mr. Keddy is re-elected and it is Gerald particularly, and I know Mr. Keddy to speak to in this manner, if he is re-elected I look forward to straightening him out in as appropriate and as mannerly a way as possible, saying we need the convention centre and we need roads and we can do both of them. Under no circumstances did I, as the minister, as much as I care about the five-year road plan, divert any dollars from my - here I am again - our road plan, to build the convention centre.

 

My apologies for being so long-winded.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, minister, and that's something that is important for people in my area and I'm sure in other areas for them to understand that. I know there has been some frustration, maybe perceived frustration. There has been real frustration but over perception and thank you for clearing that up.

I'm just going to pick a couple of areas in the department that are more looking at the numbers. One of the areas is actually motor vehicle inspections. I know that the province has moved from annual inspections to inspections every two years. Has this produced any savings for the department?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I just want to clarify something for the member - are you talking about motor vehicle inspections for our equipment, our gear with the province or are you talking about transportation equipment or are you talking about generally. I mean motor vehicle inspections is under Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations.

 

MR. MACMASTER: So that would fall under the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, any savings potentially from that measure?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Yes.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Okay. How about for vehicle compliance, have you noticed anything there? I know somebody had taken a look at the budget and they noticed that the costs have gone up the last five years. Is there maybe some reason for that trend?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: There have been some salary clarifications there, just in terms of making sure - that's a line item of course when it comes to extra staff. There's also the reclassification of salaries, there is some training, of course, that is involved in those extra dollars.

 

Vehicle compliance, of course, is one of those parts of government that sort of gets taken for granted until there's a problem when something isn't correctly done. I've seen first-hand some of the good work that people have done in that line of work. You know it's important that we have well-qualified people who know what they are doing when they are looking at some of these rigs that are running on the road and what kind of shape they are in.

 

Vehicle compliance of course is important. It's a tough job, in fact I had the opportunity - I think I'm in the right place, I believe it was in Amherst, I'm pretty sure it was - that the number of new vehicle compliance people were women. So I, in my own undiplomatic fashion, asked them, sometimes when they are working alone and they are put in situations where they have to deal with a truck driver or somebody who is driving a big piece of gear and he or she is in a hurry, they're not going to be too enthralled with the fact that you are taking them off the side of the road to look at some of the concerns that you might have for their equipment.

 

We have added three new inspectors particularly to deal with doing more inspections. It's a working relationship, of course. In fact this particular woman that I was asking this - I guess I could say it in the presence of some women who are present on the committee and with Ms. Fraser to my left - this sexist comment where I was concerned about her safety - when she asked would I ask the same question of a man? Yes, in certain situations I would. She told me that she was herself a trucker, she was the daughter of a long-haul trucker for a long time and she was very pleased to be in vehicle compliance because it was something that she really knew what she was doing. There's an example of somebody else who works for us who is recently new to the department and takes great pride in the job she is doing.

 

I thank you for the question and I want you to know that you are as good as the people you have working for you and there's another example, a good one that makes me look good on occasion.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I'm just going to slip a couple of quick questions in here and allow my colleague from Cape Breton West to have an opportunity.

 

So minister, my question this time is about gas taxes. I guess one of the things that we - and this question may be more appropriate for the Department of Finance but I am sure that the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal keeps an eye on it - can you give us a breakdown of gas taxes, through the excise taxes that are brought in by the province, and give us some indication of how much or if all of that money is actually spent on our roads?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I see a chart here to my left but with my good eyesight I'm not going to try and read it but it's a great question. There is a clear expectation gas tax and the amount of money we spent on the roads, we've exceeded that again this year but I can give you some specific - I'm not going to give it to you but Ms. Fraser can give you some specific examples. I know as she jots them down here that you'll understand the fact.

 

I think that's one of the key things that people talk about, the fact that I pay a lot for gas now and the roads aren't getting any better. Well, we're trying to say to them that the roads will get better because we're going to continue to match that and exceed it when it comes to making sure that this gas tax money goes to our roads.

 

Perhaps you could give this directly to the member, I don't mind him seeing this. This clearly is as you've written this down for me.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, minister. Certainly later today or at some point that would be appreciated and I'd be satisfied with that.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: For the record, it's there for you if you wish.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, minister. One last question - one of the things that I think is good in this province in rural areas is protection for people who are truckers, who have their own trucks, run their own businesses. Does the department have any back checks to ensure that the agreement with the Truckers Association is holding true which, as I understand it, 80 per cent of the work on any project the department does must flow through the local Truckers Association?

 

I'm not going to bring up specific examples but it has been brought to my attention, and I don't think this has happened because anybody has tried to make it happen this way but I think there have been a couple of instances where the agreement may not have been honoured. As I say, I don't think it was done on purpose but does the department have any back checks to make sure that when a project is completed that the Truckers Association agreement is honoured? The essence of it is just to ensure that the work is spread out evenly amongst the local truckers in any given area of the province.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: The 80/20 rule is something that is an indication of good faith when it comes to the government and when it comes to the working relationship that we have with truckers. I want the member for Inverness to know that in the past, having met with the Truckers Association folks, they bring the concerns to us if there are concerns of that nature. We have a particular member of staff who takes care of the complaints. There are open lines of communication.

 

I've had the opportunity to sit down with the Truckers Association, whenever they want to meet with me we meet with them. It's important that we continue to make sure that local trucking firms feel comfortable working with the government. I'm always intrigued with the fact that when it comes down to some of the concerns that they have, we address the issue pretty clearly, or I do, by saying, so what company were you dealing with? You were having problems with a particular company?

 

At that stage a number of the truckers will say well, we'd rather not get into the particular company but we're having problems with the 80/20 rule. Do they have problems with the government? No, they don't have problems with the government, they have the problems with some of the other contracts that are out there with private industry, but not to go down that road to cause any difficulties along that way.

 

Open lines of communication, the 80/20 rule is an indication that the government is going to treat truckers fairly. I often take them up on their offers that they want to give me the tour of some roads that they would take me on. That opportunity is going to come because I know one particular gentleman who I used to play junior hockey with in Amherst is threatening me that either I'll go with him in his truck or he'll make sure that he never lets me out of the cab again.

 

The 80/20 rule is an important indicator that we work with whoever the government is. I mean we can't continue to offer the services across this province without private trucking interests. We have to make sure that they feel very comfortable when it comes to working with us. We have a staff member who handles such situations. He has a good working relationship with the Truckers Association, with truckers individually.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, minister, and Mr. Chairman, I'll turn the floor over to my colleague from Cape Breton West and let him continue our session.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cape Breton West.

 

MR. ALFIE MACLEOD: Mr. Chairman, first I'd like to welcome the minister and thank him for the opportunity. When I look around I see some familiar faces that had a stint of time in Cape Breton at the area office there and it's good to see them here and surrounding you. I would like to take this opportunity to publicly thank you for the last time you were in Cape Breton, for taking the time to tour some of the roads in Cape Breton West that needed attention by your department. It was very well appreciated by the communities that you visited and I think it's important that we acknowledge that here today.

 

I also want to acknowledge the work of the members of your department who are so reliable in the work they do, including especially the snow cleaning operations that are done during the winter. When most people are staying at home, your staff is getting out on the road and making sure that other people are getting to their jobs and getting home safely. I would hope you would pass on our thanks to all the members of your staff for that.

 

In Cape Breton West we've had a lot of work done and we're very appreciative of that but, like in every other area of the province, there's lots of work left to be done. There are a few areas that I would like to just review with you, if I could. One of them is Route 216, or the Northside East Bay highway which leads to Eskasoni. I know it is part of the five-year plan, I know part of the work is planned for this summer. I was just wondering if you could give an indication, Mr. Minister, as to how that development is going along and where we might be in the process of seeing a tender called there?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Well I know Route 216, we've talked about it, but I'd be remiss if I didn't point out the fact that I had a really impressive piece - and I know I'm not allowed to use props but if you seize it from me, Mr. Chairman, I'll get it from you later. I have this letter from 1151 New Boston Road, Rick MacDonald - if you want to get the attention of the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal . . .

 

HON. GRAHAM STEELE: Table it.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: The Minister of Finance is not exactly playing ball with me, is he? That particular section of road, I know particularly when it comes to dealing with the Eskasoni area, is of some real importance and we're looking at it within the next six weeks or so that there will be a tender called.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Thank you, minister, and that is the expectation of the community because of the five-year plan but every time I am in Eskasoni they sort of say, did you hear anything? So it's nice to be able to go back and say that hopefully within the next six to eight weeks they should see a tender call.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: To the member opposite, if I may, having that road work done on that particular section of highway is only common sense, particularly when you look at reasons for the economy locally, safe driving and all kinds of other things. That's where we come back to the example that I used for the member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley, I think it restores the faith in the folks who live in that particular section of your constituency, that they haven't been forgotten. There was a commitment made and now the commitment is going to be kept.

 

You should take some credit for that yourself because you are bringing it again to my attention and I know if the tender doesn't hit the table within that time frame I'll hear from you again but that's how it has to be done. That's the value of having the five-year road plan, putting it out publicly. Yes, it does raise people's expectations but, more importantly, you can say to people, I see it there in black and white and now I want to see it in black and tar.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Thank you, and I certainly appreciate the minister's comments. Because the minister brought another road to light, because of that very interesting piece of stationery, and again, the last time he was in Cape Breton, that I'm aware of anyway, he took the time to travel that road and he did meet with Rick MacDonald and his wife, Cathy - completely by chance, they were out walking on the road.

 

Now, of course, people are hopeful that something will be looked at in respect to that. I know that again, although we have a five-year plan, there are plans for other secondary roads and one of the things I would like to ask is, of course, if you had a chance to talk with your staff with the information that was provided to you and out of that has there been any consideration given to that area at this time?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Well, all reference to my choice of hockey teams aside, I gave Mr. MacDonald the offer and he took it to heart because he provided me with an historic background on the fact that the road - and there is quite a history to it. I'm not going to regale members who are unaware of the history of the road and commitments that were made and never fulfilled by your predecessor, in particular, but it's no good pointing fingers at what is the past, let's look at what is going to happen in the future.

 

Staff are aware of all the information. I've asked them to have an update as soon as possible, not just because of the name of the road but because of the fact that Mr. MacDonald went out of his way to provide such a thorough review, with a package of information that was more than impressive, for sure, in terms of media coverage locally, the history in terms of political commitments that were made and, unfortunately, not kept. That all puts in perspective the fact that there has to be something done to that particular part of that road, because people have been more than patient, the MacDonalds in particular have been more than patient. Now we have to give them some kind of commitment one way or the other and put a time frame on it.

 

There has been no decision made yet but I want you to assure Mr. MacDonald that he certainly did get our attention and get the staff's attention with how he - this is just the covering letter, of course, which I have because there is a package of information like that. That's the sort of background that I like to see when it comes to making the case. The MLA doesn't have to make the case, the constituent makes the case on behalf of the people who live as his neighbours.

 

MR. MACLEOD: I want to thank the minister for that and believe me when I say that I know it has - the name of the road has been one that we've used in jest a few times, to get the minister's attention, but I also understand the sincerity of his commitment to looking at these types of issues. He has been very good to do that in the past.

 

I would be remiss if I did not mention to you that there are two ends to that road and as much as Mr. MacDonald and his group have brought forward that information, the other end of the road will tell you that they, too, are deserving because they've been long-suffering and unfortunately on the day we were out the mayor of that end couldn't be out on a walk so we missed him.

 

I do appreciate what the minister has said and what his staff are looking into. As you say, there's no future in the past, it's where we are now that counts and how we move forward from here that will make a difference for the people of that road. Whatever can be done and whatever timeline it could be done could be something much appreciated by the residents there and myself, as the local MLA.

 

To move on, we have again in Cape Breton West, we're very fortunate we have a lot of very iconic features. One of them is the Mira River which has been made famous around the world by Allister MacGillivray and his Song for the Mira. It's also a very scenic drive and again, when you were in Cape Breton we had the opportunity to drive part of it. I was hoping there would be some consideration by the department again, when they're looking at where we are, and what we need to do is maybe some four- or five-year plan for attacking the roads that go around the Mira River, i.e. Hillside, Sandfield, Grand Mira South and Trout Brook. The other two ends are the Brickyard Road and also Hornes Road. Brickyard Road was done about eight years ago, I think - it might be a little longer than that but other parts of that road have been long-suffering.

 

I'm just wondering if there has been any discussion that you're aware of within the department. I know there were some estimates done on the Hillside Road last year but I don't know what came out of that. I'm just wondering if you have any information that you can share at this point.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I know that day, having been on that particular section of the road before, prior to being the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, I am aware of the fact that a number of those roads have been - call it like it is - neglected for an unusual amount of time. The information that I'm aware of is that Hillside and Trout Brook, there should be some movement on those particular roads within this season.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Thank you again, minister. I probably should quit while I'm ahead. Another road, and as recently as this afternoon I've gotten an e-mail from somebody - is Route 327, which is the piece of highway that goes from Marion Bridge to Gabarus. I will put it on the record that I live in Gabarus Lake, but this e-mail came from another individual and I intend to print it off and share it with you tomorrow when time permits. Again, the question that was asked about if there are plans for that road - and I know in discussions that I've had with the area manager and others, Jamie Chisholm who would be the construction manager - that road is, as they say, on the radar screen.

 

As I said earlier, there are a lot of roads and every area has a lot of roads to look at, but Route 327 is also what is considered today to be part of the Fleur-de-Lis highway. The present configuration of the Fleur-de-Lis highway has it coming in Route 327 and going down Trout Brook and then back over to Louisbourg. There have been talks in the past of a bypass, a road going from Gabarus through to Louisbourg following the shoreline. There has been some agreement reached with Parks Canada as to a potential line, but there have also been talks with the federal government as to who would fund it. Again, we have the issue here in the Province of Nova Scotia that we're well aware of; we can't maintain the roads we have without starting to build new roads. We have been lobbying the federal government to build that road and I know your department has been very gracious in saying that they would act as the general contractors and if the road was built, they would be responsible for snow removal and whatnot.

 

I guess the question is today, if that route through the park doesn't move forward, are there any plans for Route 327 to improve the quality of that road, not only for the people who live in the area and work in Sydney and Marion Bridge, but also for the tourists who travel on that road as they come to the famous Fortress of Louisbourg?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I'm not aware of the Parks Canada situation personally, but I am aware, of course, of the importance of Louisbourg, particularly when it comes to the local economy. It is one of those star attractions that history buffs or people who want to get a flavour for what it was those many long years ago to get to that particular part of Cape Breton.

 

I do know that Route 327 will be considered in the next update of the five-year plan - not that you have to wait five years for an update, an update happens every year - we just discussed this with Mr. Fitzner and staff. Instead of waiting for Parks Canada - no reflection on how that particular federal agency works, based upon my experience as a neighbour of theirs in the summertime on Prince Edward Island - I would like to say that sounds fine, but in the meantime, we have to do something with Route 327 and not be sitting and waiting for the federal government to make that move. Instead, let's see what we can do for that particular part of the road.

 

That day that we were there, we were on one side of the Mira.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Grand Mira South.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: That's the other side of the Mira.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Sandfield.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Yes, I must make a point of getting to that side this summer sometime.

 

MR. MACLEOD: You have an open invitation to come back.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I'm not repeating an invitation publicly that will get you in trouble.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Nor am I, but you have an open invitation to come back to also view other roads in the area and other things. As for what you've just told me about Route 327, I appreciate that very much and I agree. We've been working on this Fleur-de-Lis project for a number of years. Actually, when I had the honour of being the member around 1995-96, that road was talked about then, the Fleur-de-Lis and we're still at that talking stage now so anything that we can do to improve the quality of the transportation links there for local residents - and I might add, if we do some work with that road, my mother-in-law may start talking to me again. She's quite upset about the state of the road.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Maybe we should take that road off the list.

 

MR. MACLEOD: On a very serious note, that is something that I appreciate.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I just want to interject for a moment. We all go through this. I see members sitting here at the table who, of course, live on a certain road - we all live somewhere, right? I mean, considering the fact knowing where you live and the fact that's a particular area of road that you had mentioned earlier to me, that doesn't mean the road shouldn't be addressed. You can make common sense with the fact that it's based on a priority list, it's based on where it is in the five-year plan, and it's based on some of these specifics. People can say, well, that particular MLA used that influence that he or she had with the minister, whether they're of one political stripe or another - if that road needs the work, it needs the work, full stop. Don't apologize for the fact - knowing where you live and knowing that particular stretch of road, it does need some work.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Yes minister, there's no question about that but I always just like to put that out front so nobody can throw anything back down the road at you or me. Mr. Chairman, about how many minutes do we have left?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have 10 minutes.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Oh, well it may not be the last question. One of the visits that we did make on your tour as Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal was a visit to the breakwater in the village of Gabarus. I had the opportunity to gather some materials and bring them to you, I'm not sure if you've had time with the House sitting and the budget and all those other things to actually have a good look at it. I'm just wondering, there were a number of pictures there that could show you the state of that piece of seawall and what we're concerned about is the fishermen who live there and make their living there. If we have another couple of storms like we had last January, which probably were the exception rather than the rule, but by the same token, if we have a couple more surges like that there's going to be about 25 people whose livelihoods are going to be put in jeopardy.

 

I'm just wondering if you've had an opportunity to review that and maybe talk with your colleagues in charge of Emergency Management to see if there has been any process put in place yet for following through on a program to help reconstruct that. The last time that I spoke with anybody at EMO there had not been a program designated for that end of the province at that point and that's about two, maybe three weeks ago. So I'm just wondering if you've heard anything different or if there is any further information that we can supply to help make your job a little easier.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Further to the visit we made and the information you provided to me, I guess it must be my lack of attention or whatever it is but those pictures were quite graphic in terms of what I saw, particularly with the boardwalk that was basically just ripped from its moorings. Further to that meeting that we had - staff had already been doing a review for me because I had asked them to identify coastal situations where storm surges, and various other things, with climate change, that could be threatened just because of how things have been going lately with storms.

I guess the issue would have to be addressed further to a conversation that I had with my staff after our visit. I'm regularly approached by coastal communities, I can think of Lockeport in particular, but I also look at Queensland Beach and I know the member for Richmond brought a concern to our attention about a breakwater.

 

I wanted to have an inventory of some of these roads that could be in threatening positions and the Gabarus situation that sparked that interest in my mind because we have to do something proactively as opposed to waiting for it happen. Not inevitably, but eventually there could be further issues with what could happen because if that breakwater is actually broken - that particular day when we saw the ships that were there and the lobster traps that were on the adjoining wharves - that's a way of life that could be ruined in a heartbeat because of the surge that could come over that breakwater.

 

I guess from what was said to me earlier and based upon some other considerations in a couple of the communities that I've just mentioned, I'm not passing the buck, but one of the other commitments I have to have is I want to know who the new federal Fisheries Minister going to be. If it is Ms. Shea, who is the current member from Malpeque, I believe, I had given you the earlier commitment that that would be something that I would like to address with her because there has to be a plan put in place. It's no reflection on the influence that a particular Member of Parliament might have federally, Mr. Armstrong in particular has had a great deal of influence with Minudie and River Hebert and some of those coastal challenges on the marshlands up through there and I realized recently there were some dollars granted to that federal Member of Parliament who is out there doing his job and perhaps he just has a little bit more influence than some member who is on the opposite side of the past House in Ottawa. It would be my wish that I could approach the federal government and say, here are some identifiable projects that we're concerned about with storm surge issues and Gabarus would be one of the ones that would be mentioned, along with a couple of other examples.

 

Staff is currently going through doing that inventory for me so I can get my head around the fact that when the storms come rolling in, when the Fall breaks again, with some of the difficulties we've had, we can say, well, are we prepared? We prepared for the difficulties with the storm surge, but are we prepared for the funding that could happen there so quickly? Your particular community is one of them so we'll continue to work with the federal government and you particularly as the MLA, but it's an issue, and it's an issue that's not going to go away. In fact, considering the history of storm surges recently - I see the member for Inverness has joined us again - that it is an issue that's not going to go away.

 

MR. MACLEOD: You're right. Of course, the day that we were travelling we also had the local councillor with us and we would have had the local MP, but unfortunately he wasn't available that day. The three of us are trying to work on this project together because it's a project that touches all levels of government and we need to have complete co-operation if we're going to be successful.

 

That last area that I'd like to bring into - and again it has the same to do with the storm surges - would be the area that goes from Port Morien, the sandbar, right along through from Catalone Gut, in that area, we've seen a lot of damage created. We've seen the areas where the surges have taken place and actually taken debris on the roads that we needed to use the local snowplows to get the debris off the road; it was that plentiful. The area manager for our area, Roy MacDonald, he and I did a road trip and we visited with a few people who had concerns along that area and then tried to address them so that he would have an idea as well as to what was going on. So I just put those on the table as further areas that may need to be looked at when your department is looking at the overall strategy along the coast.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I apologize for the hand signals to the chairman. I was asking for a time-out here in a few moments. Again, I was aware of the fact that in certain situations, particularly when they're coastal, when you see some of the storm surges and what ends up on the road and what ends up on the highway, when you have to use snowplows to get that gear off there, whatever it is, whether it's boulders or particular pieces of trees and driftwood, that's an indication of another issue that we're going to have to face.

 

The geography of Port Morien, I've been there of course and I've seen the area, it's important that people have that opportunity. As we said earlier, one of the attractions that we have in this province is people want to get to the coast, people want to see the Atlantic coming in in various stages of the year, but I think it's important that we have places like Port Morien with a strong past and its wonderful small school, unfortunately, that people want to get down and see Port Morien first-hand and they've got to have a coastal road that puts them right there next to the ocean. Anything I can do as the minister to make sure that's continued, I will, as you hopefully are well aware.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Member for Cape Breton West, you have about one minute left for a quick question.

 

MR. MACLEOD: Mr. Chairman, I think instead of asking a question I'll just say again to the minister, I want to thank him for the time and his staff for their time. I also want to be sure that you understand that the area manager and the OSs that we have in our area that I have the privilege to work with are people who are very committed to their jobs and they are doing the best with what they have to work with because everybody has limited resources, but they have been very proactive and it's a pleasure to work with them. I just want to say thank you for that, as well as the senior levels of your department that I've had the opportunity to meet with. They have not always given me the answers I wanted, but always were willing to at least talk and talk about the answers, so I appreciate that, thank you.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The time has elapsed for the Progressive Conservative caucus, so we're going to take a short break.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: If I may, I just wanted to give you a heads-up, member for Digby. I would ask for about a 10-minute break at this stage.

 

[6:50 p.m. The subcommittee recessed.]

 

[7:04 p.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister and members, the time is 7:04 p.m. and we will now turn an hour over to the Liberal caucus.

 

The honourable member for Kings West.

 

MR. LEO GLAVINE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to be able to ask the minister and staff a few questions, a few general ones, and some specific to Kings West and the area that I serve. I first want to put on the record that - I guess I would be disappointed otherwise but - I am very pleased with the strong working relationship with the minister and his staff and that's always appreciated in this business, that you can call and find out why things are being done or not being done. I do prize and highly regard that kind of information flow between government and MLAs.

 

The first one goes back a little while ago but I'm sure it was probably a call to my office from a couple of frustrated RCMP officers in my area who called the office, wondering what the current Act says about pushing snow onto a highway from driveways; that becomes a potential hazard, people swerving out around it, braking because it is there and so forth.

 

I guess he wasn't familiar with the current Act and whether the Act is inclusive and embraces situations where individuals see that pushing it onto the highway and allowing the snowplow to move it a little further down the road, I'm wondering if the minister has encountered those kinds of situations and what is a potential remedy?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you to the member for Kings West. I do appreciate initially, and I know you mean it quite truthfully, I know you are speaking about people like Ms. Fraser and not people like Mr. Fitzner, because of the good working relationship, right?

 

MR. GLAVINE: He used to live in my riding so how could I say otherwise, minister?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I do appreciate how you and I have continued to do business and I know your friend from Digby will probably say the same thing, that when you pick the phone up and you want an appointment, it's a matter of when can I fit you in or when can you get into the office because it's those open lines of communication, particularly - I mean call it like it is - you know the situation in your area better than I do, for sure.

 

I have seen how, and I used this example earlier with the member for Colchester North and her working relationship with the staff she knows in her depots that work with the TIR. That's how we should do business because when the lists are brought forward or the suggestions for work are forthcoming when the season begins so we can do some of this work, that your priorities are much in tune with the local people on the ground. That's how it gets done.

 

Then, of course, we can look and compare notes - well, what is our OS saying about what the MLA is recommending? In many cases in your situation, as you well know, if I can use this appropriately, the member for Kings North and I were talking about it for a moment, when you end up singing from the same song sheet and hitting the right notes at the same time, we get something done for the people in your constituency.

 

Just making sure that I had the opportunity to respond, particularly to the working relationship that you and I have had, as people in a previous career where perhaps we did get some things done more efficiently than we do these days but that's another topic.

 

There is a review of the Motor Vehicle Act that we're going to bring - we're going to tidy it up, if that's the appropriate expression. The Motor Vehicle Act will be brought forward in the Fall, hopefully with some updated suggestions and with some sections deleted, particularly when we look at some of the historical things that are still in the Motor Vehicle Act - no reflection on them - but they are from the horse and buggy days.

 

I am aware from the note that was given to me earlier, that the RCMP officers considered it dangerous for motorists or plow operators, my impression is that if they can identify who dumped this snow in a dangerous situation, charges could be laid. It is just basically discourteous, of course, from my perspective, when we look at particularly plowing at night and they're coming around the corner of a road and all of a sudden they realize they've got snow that has been unfortunately deliberately plowed out into the roadway because they are clearing their own driveway. I think that people have to be more attentive to the needs of the public highway and not just concerned about their driveway.

 

I understand, of course, if they are moving it across and they move it all the way across to the opposite side and they are careful in doing it, you know this is a thoughtful way to make sure that their driveway is cleared and the highway is cleared. I would encourage those RCMP officers if they want to speak to me directly about it some time, we can speak about it without getting into a big session on it. I mean they can pick up the phone and we'll chat about it. Hopefully they would identify who the people are who have done this.

 

In my constituency there is an example of a man, a very well-intentioned gentleman, who has caused a traffic hazard on a couple of occasions. I was in Opposition at the time and made a point of going to visit him because a couple of people who live further down the road from him were concerned about the fact that he was putting the snow out and it ended up in their driveway even more because of what he had dumped out onto the main public highway.

 

He was responsive to the need, as I said to him that it was just courtesy to his neighbours who were further down on that side of the road from the plow that was doing the operating. It is a dangerous practice and it shouldn't be allowed to continue.

 

The particular RCMP officers, if they want to talk to me and the staff specifically about it, I encourage them to give me a call.

 

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you very much, minister, for that explanation. I will pass that on to the Kingston RCMP and I'm sure they'll appreciate that response.

 

One of the areas that I first started to talk about in this House in 2003-04 was the Highway No. 101 passing lanes. That program moved forward both from the province and due to the stimulus package brought in by the federal government. Four have been completed so far and I can say with certainty, from a number of reports, that in fact it has assisted greatly the area from Kingston to Coldbrook and I regard it as the right solution, as an alternative to twinning that section of highway. I think it's appropriate for the volume of traffic that is there and probably is going to be satisfactory for the next quarter of a century, in my view, because after Kingston and access to 14 Wing Greenwood, the traffic really does fall off.

 

Two things: One, I'm wondering if the plan is in place to finish the last couple of passing lanes this year and secondly, do you know, Mr. Minister, if further crushing of rock on Long Point Mountain will have to be done to assist that work, if it's going ahead this summer? There were some problems with long hours of crushing rock, especially when families were together during the summer on a couple of the long weekends, July and August weekends, with dust, et cetera.

 

It seems to me that it is a process that, when we know that road building is going to take place, that really could be done in months and in a period of time when it would fit perhaps more into the context of a regular work week, as opposed to around the clock and long hours, especially when people tend to be outside more, during the summer months and are affected by the noise, the dust and the traffic through a particular area. I would like for the minister to comment on the continuation of the Highway No. 101 passing lanes and associated potential problem. It was encountered last summer and the area manager did get some results but I know the contractor is under pressure as well, to get the appropriate amount of rock in place for the work.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you and I thank the member for those couple of questions. If I may, I'd like to start with the crushing of the aggregate. I certainly am appreciative of the fact, particularly when people are out enjoying a nice weekend and there's work being done 24/7. Unfortunately some of that is going to depend on who gets the contract but I can give you the commitment that that particular concern, considering that job and when it is going to be done, that will be brought to the attention of the person or the company that gets the contract.

 

They have deadlines, of course, which they have to make but I think it's important that they are also aware of the fact that folks are enjoying the longer, more peaceful days of summer and it would be appropriate for them not to be doing it necessarily around the clock but some of that will be dependent on who gets the contract but thank you for bringing it to staff's attention and my attention.

 

The Highway No. 101 passing lanes, I agree with you completely. In the times that I travelled that road and I had a great one-day trip to - and the member for Clare is not with us and if you have the opportunity, please pass on to him that his absence has been noted and hopefully he will be back to good health as soon as possible because I can say that I miss him during estimates with his types of questions and the points that he has. I was going down to visit the member for Clare last Spring and I went down in the morning and came back later in the evening. No doubt there were certain parts of that road where I would say to myself, this passing lane or climbing lane, whatever you wish to call it, works very well. I share the member's point of view in terms of the fact that passing lanes will certainly do the trick when it comes to making the roads as safe as possible.

 

The thing that always bothers me is that sometimes these passing lanes encourage speeding but that's another topic aside. The plan is that we'll be finishing up those passing lanes this year. We know how important they are to that particular section of Highway No. 101 and we look forward to having them completed.

 

I should also point out to you that I recently used that section that you had mentioned earlier of the No. 101 because of the rumble sticks. I actually had it happen to me when I was coming back from Mr. Gaudet's riding that evening - it had been a rather long day and I was coming back and it was turning to dusk. That's probably - and I could be corrected, I know Mr. Fitzner will because he is used to correcting me, he does it quite well, incidentally - but the rumble sticks that are in the middle of the highway on that section down there, boy, I was drifting a little bit that night and wasn't paying a lot of attention and all of a sudden I was over the centre line and the rumble sticks in the middle of Highway No. 101 - you know the particular section I'm talking about - boy, it is really a useful thing to have.

 

Anybody who is going to say they don't want rumble sticks on the side of the road or that particular section of the No. 101, that's a safety factor that certainly worked well for me that evening. I'm sure that I probably would have - not that I was completely asleep behind the wheel - but it grabbed my attention.

 

The passing lanes will be completed this year and the aggregate problem will be brought to the attention of the person who gets the contract.

 

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you very much, Mr. Minister. I do concur in terms of the double rumble strip. I'm just wondering, is this one of the first areas in the province and is it likely to be one of the new standards that roads like the Highway Nos. 101, 102 and 103 may incorporate? I think it's another aspect of the passing lanes that surprised a lot of people, they didn't realize that was coming and to me I see it as every bit as effective as the jersey barrier, really, and obviously not as expensive, it doesn't take away from the aesthetics of the road but I think it's a built-in safety feature that will prove over time to be extremely valuable.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you for your comments about those particular rumble sticks. If members on this side of the table aren't aware of them, this is a section of the road where right in the middle of the highway, in terms of if you're drifting around and you're suddenly going to be put in a situation. The comparison to jersey barriers is a good one because certainly in my situation that day it woke me up.

 

When I returned after that visit to Mr. Gaudet's riding in Clare, I brought to the staff's attention how many other places we have this in the province. This is a one-of-a-kind, from my understanding, but we're going to do more of them because in certain situations they are more than just a safety factor, they are almost a necessity on that stretch of road that is good and straight, I mean you are driving along at a reasonable speed and there's that inattentive way that all of a sudden you realize you are drifting over into oncoming traffic. They work very well and hopefully there will be other places around the province where they will be used, or that is what the chief highway engineer says he is going to do and we'll hold him to it, between the both of us.

 

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you, Mr. Minister. It took a lot of convincing to work on getting the passing lanes there but you identified the key as to why it was a problem. Again, it became very personal for me to push because two former students of mine, one on his way to hockey practice in Berwick, died on that stretch of road. My son was playing on the same hockey team and, in fact, I just got chills there because the young boy had called our house and asked if our son wanted a drive to hockey that day and three of the boys who were in the accident, two of them I had in class.

 

I know, Mr. Minister, you know all about how that attachment and personal feel becomes for an issue but again, weather conditions change very quickly, as they can in the Valley. It is a straight stretch of road is what I wanted to really nail down. We get farm traffic that is moving down that stretch of highway and there is a tendency to get frustrated and pull out to pass.

 

Now, again the police are saying that they are picking up less on that stretch for inappropriate passing because people now know that a couple of kilometres down the road they will be able to pass safely, so I think it's a wonderful addition to safety in our area.

 

The other area I wanted to ask about, I guess a few of the members at the base in Berwick brought this up, they were wondering if the same type of painting program on the lines of the highways in the province will be continuing. They had heard some talk that perhaps some lines would just be done every other year. I'm just wondering if there is a current defined policy on painting and renewing the lines, again which I see as an important safety factor on our roads.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I do know, of course, that one of the things when it comes to line painting is that cost is a factor. The whole process is still under review but there are certain sections of highways in this province, because of the use that they have, have to be painted every year. I'm sure that if we look at some other particular roads - not to name them here, one constituency as compared to another - is there a necessity to paint those roads every year? That's the part of the policy that is under review.

 

I'm sure you're aware of the fact, of course, that each department has been asked to make certain tough decisions when it comes to making sure that we're getting the best bang for our buck and this is one of them. On roads such as Highway No. 101 in particular, of course, there certainly would be no cutting of any corners, if that's an appropriate expression, when it comes to line painting.

 

I appreciate the concern that of course has been brought up by the people who are working out of Berwick but roads that need the painting hopefully will receive the painting, particularly in some of the areas of the province where we have a lot more traffic than in other areas. That doesn't mean that every road is going to be painted. I am aware of the fact that painting crews are important. We have one, of course, that works within the department and we have a couple of other private companies that compete for the same jobs. It's an important part of the safety features, offering safe roads in the province and it's important that we get at it as soon as possible, from one end of the province to the other.

 

Please assure the people who live in the Berwick area that proper painting will be followed.

 

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you, minister, for that reassurance, again, another very prominent safety aspect, of course, of our highways.

 

In terms of that type of work that will be done, I'm wondering at this stage of the year how the RIM money will fare in Kings West. I know that ditching, alder cutting - as my colleague to the left is a specialist at bringing forward - and all of that work that comes under RIM, again is that going to receive some reductions or are we going to be close to the level that the area requires? We have a lot of roads that were sand-sealed over the years, I think they were appropriate for the time, it's going to be less and less part of the plan. I know the minister is big on single or double chip sealing and should stand up much better.

 

I'm wondering where RIM fits in as to that annual maintenance of spreader patching, filling the potholes, doing the ditching and appropriate alder cutting, especially around stop signs. I'm wondering if the minister could comment on that.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Well as both members sitting there are aware, of course those of us who live in more rural parts of the province know how important that RIM money is because it's locally used. Again, whether it's the alders that are being removed from a busy intersection, it's an indicator to the people who live in that community that the road is safer because of the opportunity that they can come to that stop sign or that intersection and don't have to get out in the middle of the intersection because of the alders. I'm sure the member for Digby will probably bring it to my attention.

 

Across the province there has been a $5 million reduction when it comes to RIM dollars - $5 million across the province. That doesn't mean that there won't be local roads that will benefit from RIM dollars in constituencies from your part of the Valley to where I live in Timberlea-Prospect because I know how important these dollars are and I know how much the local people are involved in the depots, the fact of course that they are taking care of some of the local issues - not the big ticket issues of a repaving job on Highway No. 104 or something of that nature but it is important that we send a clear message that we're not going to forget about the local roads.

 

We can give you perhaps more specific information, as I did for your colleague from Richmond earlier in the exchange and Ms. Fraser can provide the specifics for your constituency, in terms of how it is going to affect the dollars. Hopefully the people on staff will understand the fact that it's one of those things that we're not going to scrimp on safety but we're going to make sure we getter a better bang for our buck when it comes to RIM money, particularly in the rural areas where we have to make sure that some of the smaller jobs that can be handled by smaller firms, smaller companies, will help us out particularly when it comes to using RIM dollars.

 

Of course it's important, too, that our staff are aware of the fact that we are counting on them to do the majority of this work. It's an ongoing concern, I'm aware that it has been brought to our attention but we're going to make sure that private and local roads, that these secondary roads are just as important as the major 100-Series Highways. They might not get all the asphalt from one end to the other but they're not going to be forgotten.

 

I know you and I have had this conversation before with sand-sealed roads as opposed to chip sealing. I do appreciate when we met earlier the concerns that we have when it comes to chip-sealed roads because I can speak from personal experience and I've made the case with members on all sides of the House, that this is a good way to go on roads that don't have the volume that is necessary for a couple of layers of asphalt.

 

That's part of the ongoing process, I look forward to your input and what you have for advice for us, as a department.

 

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you very much, minister. I think you did already reference the fact that a lot of the work will be done by the local bases and that, in fact, should be the case. There will be some contracts out privately, I know some of the small firms, again in the local area, I guess anticipate and hope that's part of the program.

First when I came to the House here I remember bringing it up with the Minister of Transportation and that we had a couple of years, or the year in which I came to office, that a lot of the work was done by contractors from outside the area. I'm just wondering how the department will distribute some of those smaller jobs that need to be done. When a company comes in from Antigonish to do work in Kings County, you know how the feelings are in that regard. I'm just wondering if you've defined a current policy that would at least put those small contractors on an even footing to at least be able to get some of the tenders that could be coming out over the next while?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, I, too, have had that concern when sitting on the opposite side of the House. Now, sitting in this position, it's very important that local contractors and local companies feel that they're being listened to. The concern, of course, was originally addressed with the fact that sometimes those jobs were almost too big for some of these smaller local companies. Now that's not going to be the case because we're going to make sure that there are smaller jobs that they can bid on and make sure that they have their opportunity to get their share of the contract. The contracts will be done by a number of smaller, private companies and we're going to ensure the fact that as many local companies as possible get the jobs.

 

I say to MLAs on all sides of the House, if you have a concern, particularly I've used the example before - and no reflection on the people from Antigonish or company from Antigonish - but I think that if we have local people who can handle the job locally and can do it in just as expeditious a manner, they should be given the opportunity for the job.

 

The key thing, of course, comes down to the fact that we all know that the message has to be out there that secondary roads are just as important as those main arteries that get all the attention and all the big bucks because these are the types of roads that people like to get out and, as I've said to members of the committee thus far during the time that we've been discussing this, I mean I do know for a fact that if I'm going to visit your constituency, I'll come down Highway No. 101 but eventually I'd like to get on the Aylesford road, so I can use that as an example of the fact that it's going to get me to a destination which I've heard you speak about many times, a particular lake that's a popular place for summertime visitors. Those are the sorts of roads that we cannot forget about because yes, it's important to have the 100-Series Highways as safe as possible but it's just as important to make sure that local, secondary roads receive attention also.

 

Now in a perfect world, of course, we would be making sure that we could do them all as quickly as possible but I can assure you that there will be lots of local work for local companies and hopefully they'll be able to get as many of the contracts as possible.

 

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you, minister, for that detailed explanation, I certainly appreciate that. One of the areas both on, I guess, the local stage as well as provincially is we always talk about the timing of when tenders are coming out and I'm just wondering how the minister kind of rates this year and feels about the progress of tenders coming forth at this stage of the year. I know the tender question, of course, has led to some policy changes, in terms of involvement from the department and we'll have to wait and see where all that heads towards but in terms of the actual notification, the getting out of those tenders, how are we rating this year? I know this was an area of concern to the minister, concern that many MLAs and others did bring to the department over the last number of years.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, of course it's an issue that we've talked about many times, the timeliness of getting tenders out. There is one particular company - that will remain unnamed, just because of the fact that I was asked not mention the name of the company - the president of the company has said look, we've got so much work so early, we don't know if we're going to be able to do any more work this summer for you, this paving season for you.

 

We have more than 50 per cent that are out already. Sometimes I'm impressed with the fact that when we want to tender out early, I mean there's no doubt that sometimes you have to make sure that you don't put them out too early. I mean we could be back the first of November and I'm sure if I let Mr. Fitzner do his thing he would put tenders out at those particular dates, as opposed to putting them out in the fashion that is one after another, as we've done thus far.

 

There's many more to come in May. When I look at a particular tender and I'm aware of who the MLA is and if I happen to be in the presence of that MLA, I've brought to the attention of a number of MLAs that tenders that I've signed recently in the last couple of days, just because of being in the House, and mentioned the fact that a tender with a particular road that I know of because of the MLA's proactive approach to it, has been done.

 

We've got 50 per cent of the tenders out already and there's going to be more out in May and hopefully the message that I always want to send on this topic is the road builders made it abundantly clear to me, not just in this year but in the past, that was one of the major concerns. When I had the opportunity to attend their AGM or to socialize with the members of the Road Builders Association, they would say, Mr. Minister - in an appropriate manner they would say this to me - get those tenders out early so we can see what we're going to have in the way of work.

 

That's an important commitment which we've been able to meet thus far this year and they're going to continue to roll out as expeditiously as possible because it sends a good message to the road builders, there's going to be lots of work, there's going to be lots of work for all of us, whether it is chip sealing being done in-house or whether it is road contracts that they're going to have the opportunity to bid on. I'm very much satisfied with the fact of how the department has done it, although I'm very reluctant to give Mr. Fitzner too many compliments - I know he knows I'm joking - I do compliment him on the fact that we are ahead of schedule when tenders are out.

 

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that update. One of the areas that I hear from my office assistant is the dreaded call around the loss of a mailbox or a claim for damages relating to a pothole. A couple of the things around this is I guess getting enough specifics into a claim form and of course making a case seems to be very difficult to find a road that provides compensation for people.

 

I'm just wondering - in terms of mailboxes, damage with clearly identified potholes, especially in the Spring, that don't get the cold patch in quick enough - if the minister can provide a little bit of enlightenment when that wing is extended too far on the plow and it's whipping by at 2:00 a.m. or 3:00 a.m., again, is there clear help and support for people who do lose a mailbox, who have vehicular damage when they hit the proverbial deep pothole?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you to the member for the question. Sometime if you're taking the slow route out on the No. 3 highway, if you drop by 4909 St. Margarets Bay Road, you'll see my mailbox and it has quite a slant to it. Now when I was in Opposition I could hear it some nights getting dinged once in a while but when I became the minister they don't touch it any more.

 

I'm jesting completely although my mailbox has a lean to it for other reasons. If it's part of the normal plowing routine, and there are accidents that do happen, we understand those concerns particularly if a mailbox is inadvertently knocked over or, more unfortunately, destroyed because of the wing and that sort of thing, we handle them on an individual case.

I had the opportunity to play a wonderful trick, if it's appropriate to tell you this story, I'm going to tell it anyway; Bruce Langille works in the Claims Department and Mr. Langille, of course, is famous for how thoroughly he takes care of issues of people who put in claims for various reasons, pothole damages aside. Each case is reviewed by his staff or by himself personally. I unfortunately referred to Mr. Langille at one time, in another life when I knew all the answers, in Opposition, and I called him Doctor No, because Mr. Langille always said "no" to all claims that were put in. Now I see the number of claims that come in and the answer isn't always "no". There are a number of claims that are forthcoming, particularly when there is damage to vehicles from potholes. Of course we have that 1-800 number - 1-800-234-3434 - no, I said that wrong. Anyway, it's got a ring to it, there's lots of 234s in it, okay. The first week I think we had 190 potholes that were brought to our attention. Of course there's a time frame for when they're going to get responded to.

 

The member for Dartmouth East specifically brought one to my attention and to be candid with you, I didn't even know that road was a provincial highway but it was. Maybe because of the influence of the minister or the member for Dartmouth East, it was taken care of that next day.

 

All joking aside with Mr. Langille, Mr. Langille does a great job, his staff do a great job. Each case is looked at individually and not every case is denied. For example - I don't want to take your time, member - I was involved in one of these recently in my own constituency, where a person who was driving on a particular section of Highway No. 103, the Timberlea connector, identified a yellow truck that was operating as a plow and had caused damage because of the snow that he - or she, it could have been a woman driving the plow - had dumped over the side of the bridge, down onto the oncoming traffic.

 

Now each piece of gear that the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal uses is tracked. We know where our plows are when they are travelling around, because of GPS and we could identify the fact that that particular plow that had been identified on that particular evening, there was no Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal plow there.

 

When I brought it back to the person who put the complaint in, the only response the gentleman had was, well it was a yellow truck, Bill, that must make it a Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal truck. That's not the situation at all because the Timberlea connector is one of the roads that comes off the Highway No. 103 down onto suburban Timberlea and that's a road that is maintained by the city. So looking at the fact that that thing could be cleared up - not that I wanted to just pass the buck on to the city because accidents do happen and the people who are operating the plows at various times of the day and night, they do on occasion make a mistake and they will admit it when the time comes.

 

Mr. Langille very clearly pointed out to me that there was not one of our trucks on that section of the road at that time - because the gentleman who put the complaint in put a specific time exactly when it happened and identified the truck. Of course he didn't see that on the side of it was an HRM truck or it was a - sorry to get into the specifics of it - but the Claims Department handles each case individually, they look at them, they are very thorough. I basically stay out of them as much as possible, even in this one where I made it quite clear to the people that I wasn't looking for any kind of claim to be settled just because I happen to have a constituent who is concerned about a point of identification.

 

I understand your point and whether it is mailbox damage or other damage to rims because of potholes, encourage your constituents to do the proper paperwork to put the claim in and I know you'll follow up as the MLA. So that's how it works.

 

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you, minister, for that review and overview. I know it's difficult and challenging work, there are a lot of individual and unique situations that do come along. One of the last areas that I have before my colleague will start some questions and continue on Thursday, I would think, the South Berwick corner has had a request now about lights for that section of the No. 1 highway. It, of course, had been editorialized in the Valley as a dangerous intersection, based on a number of accidents, based on a number of accounts from bus drivers and very reliable people who use the intersection.

 

A few little changes have taken place there. I know the county is concerned about it and the local councillor is still investigating the possibility of the county and the province cost-sharing a roundabout. I'm not sure if it needs that or if that's the answer there.

A very similar area on No. 1 highway in Coldbrook at Lovett Road which really has just one entrance from the north side of the road coming onto the No. 1 highway whereas at Berwick it is a full intersection and it has been made problematic by the establishment of a well-used business in that area where people get confused as to whether cars are going to go onto the Windermere Road when they put on their signal light or whether they're going to go a little bit further and head into Avery's Farm Market, which is a very busy spot.

I know some observations have been done, I'm wondering if the minister could comment on whether it is still under review for the possibility of signals. I know the monetary issue is probably part of it but I'm wondering what is the rationalization as to why lights, which would deem it a safer intersection, why they haven't come forth and if it's still under consideration.

We've had a lot of local effort. I know the mayor and councillors of Berwick have written correspondence. We've had a face-to-face meeting with Deputy Minister Darrow and I know the medical community has lobbied. We've had quite an amount of correspondence and discussion about this particular intersection. I'm wondering if the minister could provide some update on where things are and if there is still any opening of consideration for signals at that intersection?

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you to the member. I'm aware of the popularity of Avery's Farm Market for sure and I do understand that there can be some confusion there. I've been in that part of the Valley and based upon what you described to me before, I knew where I was when I came to that intersection.

There was an assessment done and the assessment points, that according to the statistics that I've been given just now, I'm aware of the fact that it has to reach a threshold of 100, for various reasons of criteria, and this current intersection, according to the numbers just given to me by Mr. Fitzner is that it is at 65 so it doesn't reach that threshold that's necessary.

I'm not aware of, and I could have missed this easily enough with the number of things that cross my desk, I'm not aware of any talk about a roundabout in that situation. Perhaps you could clarify that for me. I'm sorry to be asking the question - a roundabout was initiated by the county, did you say?

MR. GLAVINE: It was brought forward by the councillor, Dale Lloyd, for the area as a possible solution and again, I don't have a recent update on how far this has progressed, in terms of formal application or possible cost-sharing plan. I know the county as well has tried to do a few things at the intersection with defined sidewalk areas, removal of a phone booth; there have been some things that have taken place, no question, to hopefully - and I know the summer traffic is much more intense than the regular traffic because people come off Highway No. 101, go through Berwick, sometimes use some of the services provided there, and head to Fox Mountain which is now featuring five or six major summer events that are attracting about anywhere from 700 to 1,000 trailer units that go to this particular campsite. So there are some weekends where that traffic and out-of-the-area traffic has probably been part of the problem in that area.

 

It is a busy part of the No. 1 highway through there. That was one of the solutions offered and I can't inform the minister as to whether it has been formalized but it has been certainly at the discussion table.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Perhaps we could have a follow-up discussion, particularly when it comes to the fact that I do know that roundabouts have certainly gained in popularity considering - popularity is the wrong word - frequency and I'm glad to see that this initiative is coming forth from the municipality because I recall recently when we were looking at some roundabouts in the community adjoining where I live, many people were going, oh my God, we can't handle roundabouts.

 

If you have the opportunity to be in Prince Edward Island this summer, they are everywhere now. They break the traffic, they slow people down and, of course, they are a heck of a lot less dangerous than coming to a four-way stop.

 

The Fox Mountain situation, of course, is - how often does that happen during the summer - on various weekends, I would assume, because of traffic considerations there. I think we could leave it this way, not that I don't mind continuing to talk about it, member, but I'd like to have further conversations just in terms of some possible solutions that we can work with the municipality on because if they've shown some initiative to the degree of looking at the removal of a phone booth, I mean they're obviously really getting into the weeds, if that's the appropriate expression. They are dealing with the minutia, but that's another distraction at an intersection. Of course it's an intersection that you have to be careful going through all times of the year but particularly in the summertime. Anyway, I look forward to some follow-up.

 

MR. GLAVINE: Probably it's one of those situations where sometimes unintended consequences develop where until not that long ago there were no lights right in the Town of Berwick and you had a continuous flow of traffic through the town. Now there are lights and that seems to build up the number of vehicles that then will move about a kilometre and a half to the intersection. It seems to at times again complicate that more steady and even flow of traffic.

 

I thank the minister for wanting to continue the issue in an open dialogue around it. At some point in the future, minister, I will brief you on where the county may be or have the county directly contact you. With that I'll turn it over for the short nine or 10 minutes remaining.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Digby-Annapolis.

MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and what few minutes I have I'll probably get one question in here, maybe. I believe the minister knows what that question will be.

 

I also want to thank the minister for the great working relationship, too, that I have with the department. I went to see the minister not long ago. I called one day and it wasn't two days that I was in his office. I want to thank him for that and thank the department, it has always been good. I also want to thank him for when we were in Opposition together we sat side by side on the other side of the House and I want to thank him for the great coaching that he gave me while I sat next to him. The minister always told me, if you want something heard, you repeat it.

 

I'm going to repeat something tonight, he knows exactly what I'm going to repeat. Anyway, I want to bring up a road down home - and the minister knows what I'm talking about already - that is not there. It has been talked about for 36 years and the last eight years that I've been here I bring it up. I have to bring it up every year because every day at home it is brought up to me. That road is the non-finished Highway No. 101 between Digby and Weymouth. In this past eight years the phone calls just seemed to be getting to be more and more of them and that's because of the traffic. The traffic is raising them more, there are more big trucks on the highway than we've ever seen and nobody can deny that. Some of these homes on that 20-some kilometres of road are no further off the road than across these two desks. That's how far they are off that road and when those big trucks go by their homes it shakes the soup out of their bowls at suppertime.

 

That's no joke. These trucks, it's a 90-kilometre speed limit through this area but I don't think there's a soul that goes below 100 kilometres, I know there isn't. Some call it the 101, some still call it the No. 1 highway but I believe that the average travellers that aren't used to the area and don't live in the area believe it is the Highway No. 101 because it is on maps as 101 but it's not, it's the No. 1 highway with 400 to 500 homes, churches, schools on it and the elderly have been complaining to me that they had to get the garbage route changed because they couldn't get across that road to get the garbage across. They were scared to take their garbage over to be picked up, so they worked with the municipality to get the garbage to be picked up on both sides of the roads.

 

This just happened. It's getting worse and worse every year, I just hear more complaints, more complaints - why? We're twinning highways across this country, we're putting passing lanes in the Valley above us. Down to Digby it's a beautiful No. 101 Highway with passing lanes. Up to Weymouth from Yarmouth it's a beautiful highway with passing lanes and here's this section in the middle, and it was always told to me a few years back, there wasn't enough traffic there to have this road.

 

Well where is this traffic disappearing to at Weymouth? Where is it disappearing to at Digby? It's not, it's still going through this 20-some kilometres of No. 1 highway. Every day I hear it, I hear it. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't hear this. For 36 years this has been going on and I just need to ask this question once again tonight, this session, and I'll ask it again probably in the next session and the next one, will this highway - does the department ever see this highway being finished - at least not finished, just started?

 

I've asked this question in the House just to give those people some kind of hope. I keep telling them that - I'm sorry about this but I've got to go on - I keep telling them there was some land bought through there, there were some homes bought through there since I've been in this job but that's it, that's as far as it goes. The people just say it's never going to happen, we're never going to see that Highway No. 101 taken off our doorsteps.

 

Will this road ever be started? Not will it be done - will it be started?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Well you took the advice and you bring it up now that I am on the opposite side of the House because I know what you're going to bring up and I thank you for doing it.

 

I recall recently being on that section of the highway and I deliberately said - with reference to your name - I said that was your particular section of the highway because of your reference to it because literally, if you've never been there you can step out the front step of some homes and if you're not careful - the garbage analogy aside - you're not going to be able to even put your garbage out because they're right on your doorstep.

 

I drove the speed limit and I want you to know, I felt like a speed bump because there were people going around me. They were not driving the speed limit but that's the crux of the issue. The people, of course, are understanding that it's a 100-Series Highway, therefore, they should have a speed of whatever it is, 100 or 110 and it's just completely discourteous.

 

The thing of course comes back to funding. At this stage there's not funding available for it. Certainly in the short term it's not something that I can reassure you that it's going to be looked at tomorrow for sure. It's currently not on the five-year plan and I know you brought that to my attention prior to it.

 

I guess the concern we have to have, of course, is, is that a safe section of road and how can we make it safer? Are we going to make it safer because of more twinning or are we going to make it safer because of some other things which we might be able to do?

 

I've had this conversation with the member before when we were looking at speed limits and enforcement of things and various other issues but the more truck traffic that gets on the road the more dangerous it becomes.

 

In the short term, unfortunately, we don't have the resources to be able to address the issue. Will it be something that will be addressed in the future? I have said this to you before, member, I hope that year after year you have the opportunity to ask that question, not that I would mind you answering the question sometime in the future and I'd be back on that side asking you the question but that's neither here nor there at this stage.

At this stage, in the short run, we are not having it as part of our five-year plan. The speed is the key issue - I find the speed to be the key issue for me, it is an indicator of the fact that people are going too fast and it certainly remains a concern for me as a minister.

 

MR. THERIAULT: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Member, can you tell me, it is 27 kilometres, is that what it is?

 

MR. THERIAULT: Yes, approximately 27 kilometres from Digby. I believe there has been quite a little bit of land bought through there by the department. I believe there have been some buildings bought through there and moved, apparently it has been started, somewhat, you know, the path has been drawn. I believe the plan is there, too, the route that it's going but it just seemed to stop there and people had hopes that they would see some of the alders cut down through there to make the path at least.

 

Anyway, I want to touch on alders again and you know that's coming, too, Mr. Minister. In my riding the alders grow. I've been all over this province and watched it and the alders grow more in that riding than anywhere else in Nova Scotia. I believe, and the people down there believe, the fishermen believe, that it's the salt air coming off that westerly flow of the Bay of Fundy and alders love salt.

 

They grow in other places because of road salt but they don't get the road salt in the summer, but in the summertime in western Nova Scotia, they continuously feed off the salt. They grow four feet per year. The minister has heard me complain about this continuously because I get calls continuously about alders growing up, I mean pretty near as quick as you go in your driveway at night and come back out in the morning and they are growing up behind you, that's how fast they grow. The question is, and I get . . .

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: That sounds like a fishing story to me.

 

MR. THERIAULT: People say why can't something be done about this? In the forestry industry if they clear some land and they want spruce to come back, just spruce, they can put something on the land that will stop oak trees from growing, will stop birch trees from growing. Isn't there something that can be put alongside the road that would stop a simple little softwood alder from growing?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister, a very quick answer, is there or isn't there? Our time is up.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: We're going to come back to this because it sounds to me like there's a Ph.D. thesis here, salt air on alders.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: That concludes our time for today. We have had 240 minutes of estimates, our four hours has just been reached and we will continue on Thursday. Thank you very much, minister, minister's staff and MLAs. That's it for this evening.

 

[The subcommittee adjourned at 8:04 p.m.]