HALIFAX, FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 2011

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY

 

9:40 A.M.

 

CHAIRMAN

Ms. Michelle Raymond

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Good morning everybody. I'd like to welcome you to the Subcommittee of Whole House on Supply. I'd like to welcome the Minister of Community Services with her staff, as well as the members from all three Parties. The time at the moment is 9:40 a.m. and we will be proceeding for up to four hours - certainly for four hours in committee, but up to four with the minister today.

 

Madam Minister, would you like to begin with your opening comments?

 

HON. DENISE PETERSON-RAFUSE: Certainly. Good morning and, Madam Chairman, it is an honour to appear before this committee and to present the budget of the Department of Community Services for the 2011-12 fiscal year.

 

I'd like to begin by thanking two key staff members for joining me today - our Acting Deputy Minister Dave Ryan, and Community Services long-time Executive Director of Finance and Administration, George Hudson. I also want to recognize all the front-line workers at Community Services who serve our province so well. I am continually impressed with the dedication and professionalism of our staff, and believe that they deserve our thanks for the support they provide to Nova Scotians every day. There are many social workers in our department who face difficult situations on a daily basis. Many of us might not even be able to imagine how they manage these difficult situations, yet they consider it part of their daily job. To me they are the real heroes, and I want to publicly thank them for their service.

 

 

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We're here today to talk about budgets and numbers. Every number here represents help for families, for children, and for seniors. There's a Nova Scotian attached to every number we're going to talk about here today. That's a really important point to make because to me it's all about the people behind these numbers, and we keep that at the forefront of our minds every time we make a decision about how best to help Nova Scotians in need.

 

Madam Chairman, I am a hands-on minister; it is a priority for me that we work collaboratively with groups towards a better future for Nova Scotia. By talking to the people we serve and the partners who help provide services to Nova Scotians in need, I believe we are in a much better position to truly understand the issues and work together to fix them. For instance, the department has monthly meetings with shelter operators; these meetings occur with the most senior members of the department and are an opportunity to really get things done. We're able to come up with solutions and make decisions right on the spot, and we have a chance to review the proposals first-hand.

 

We've met with the Community Action on Homelessness and the Affordable Housing Task Force, and we've attended events and spearheaded funding for the Out of the Cold shelter this year. I want the department to be a partner with the non-profits and shelters and address issues collaboratively - and the same goes for other sectors as well. For example, we have the Early Childhood Development Roundtable which provides advice on policies and programs and consults with organizations delivering early learning and child care programs, and we recently established the Building Connections working group to enhance relationships among the department and all the sectors it serves.

 

The name of this group says it all - I want to build connections with and among all the partners we work with. Through this group, I'm confident that we'll raise awareness and understanding of each other's strengths and concerns and work together on solutions. These groups provide tremendous insight and feedback regarding the work of our department. I truly believe in the value of these collaborations.

 

Those are some examples of how this government is doing things differently, and bringing people to the table to work on challenges and find solutions. That's also why I do my level best to make myself available to meet with our partners and with the Nova Scotians we serve; this is also true of my Cabinet colleagues in their respective portfolios. We're making ourselves accessible because we know the vital importance of speaking with the people who are experiencing the issues we are trying to deal with, and this relationship is critical to our government's ability to move forward and make life better for Nova Scotian families.

 

I can tell you that visiting a person with a disability who is living independently in their own apartment provides a far better reality check than making a decision based solely on sitting in an office reading about that person's situation.

 

I want to take a minute to tell you about an amazing Nova Scotian I met recently. She has cerebral palsy and uses a wheelchair. Her main way of communicating with others is only with her eyes, and she has developed a system that allows her to look up or down to say yes or no - or to spell out words when yes or no won't do. Meeting this woman was an amazing experience for me. She is dynamic, accomplished, and faces life head-on.

 

Meeting with clients and family members to understand their point of view has been, and will continue to be, a priority of mine. I get very good accurate information from staff in the department, but meeting with the people we serve and their families brings it home in a way that no amount of briefings can do. Speaking with people receiving services we provide, such as visiting women's centres and men's intervention centres, is incredibly valuable to learn how we are doing as a department and as a government, and how we can improve.

 

Providing a consistent contact for Nova Scotians with questions or concerns about our services is another way we're improving both our services and our relationships with our clients. We have created, for the first time, a client liaison position in the department to help people navigate through our many programs and services so they get the right support for their particular needs. We're striving to make it easier for people to get information and services they need, when they need them. Madam Chairman, providing quality service delivery is the top priority for the Department of Community Services.

 

While we continue to go about our day-to-day business of supporting Nova Scotians in need, we also have an enormous department-wide effort underway to improve how we serve our clients. Our Service Delivery Transformation Project, at its heart, is about doing the best job possible using the resources we have to meet Nova Scotians' needs. Our focus is squarely on the clients we serve - we want the people who rely on our programs and services to be able to access them easily, quickly, and consistently.

 

We are in the early stages of actively transforming the way we provide our programs and services. We'll make changes when and where they're needed to improve how we deliver our range of services to Nova Scotians in need. This effort supports our mission, Madam Chairman, at the Department of Community Services. We are committed to a sustainable social support system that promotes the independence, self-reliance, and security of Nova Scotians. Our government is recognizing this vital work in the 2011-2012 budget.

 

I am very pleased to report that our budget for this fiscal year will be increasing by $13.5 million - that brings our annual budget to $985,084,000. This increase is allowing us to roll out the single biggest investment in families and children that the province has made in more than a decade. These improvements are part of our plan to make life better for families. It is a plan that is on track and it is working. They say the measure of a society is how it treats people who need the most help. Nova Scotia is taking steps down a new and better path - it is a path that supports children and families; it is a path that encourages independence and dignity; and it is a path forward to a more prosperous and vibrant Nova Scotia.

 

By providing better health care sooner, by creating good jobs and growing the economy, by living within our means, and by helping families make ends meet, this government is making life better for families. I'd like to take a moment to talk about that investment, but first I would like to report on the progress we made in our housing portfolio, thanks to last year's economic stimulus initiative.

 

Madam Chairman, I'm very pleased to report that as of March 31, 2011, the nearly $128 million in economic stimulus funding has been fully committed. We have invested this funding in a range of affordable housing options, because affordable housing isn't one size fits all. Some people need a little help to stay in their own home, some benefit from public government-owned housing, and others prefer co-ops. The Department of Community Services supports all of these options and we've invested our stimulus funding in all of them because they all play a vital role in providing affordable housing to people in need in Nova Scotia.

 

We invested $48.1 million to help upgrade, renovate and repair public housing stock, such as units in the Greystone area of Spryfield which received new kitchens and windows to make them more comfortable, energy efficient, safe and secure for the families who live there - and $20.6 million was committed for similar repairs to 1,100 units in co-operatives and non-profits. These were wise investments to ensure our existing housing for low-income Nova Scotians is in good shape and will continue to serve us for a long time.

 

We also put $27.4 million into new construction across the province, representing almost 200 units. This investment helps expand our ability to house more Nova Scotian families in need. Under the Affordable Housing Program, the province committed $13.3 million to create and preserve about 400 units; we also committed $18 million of Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program funding to help more than 1,500 households. This helps homeowners who just don't have the savings to deal with emergency repairs. Thanks to the $128 million in stimulus money, communities from Sydney to Yarmouth have benefited. This is not just investment in housing, it's an investment in this community and the people who live there. The construction and renovation effort throughout the province to make these improvements helped create jobs and buoy the economy during tough economic times.

 

Most importantly though, our strategic investment of this one-time money makes it easier for Nova Scotians living on low and moderate incomes to access a safe, affordable place to live. It also ensures that we're able to provide much-needed housing to thousands of Nova Scotia families, seniors, and persons with disabilities for years to come. We took big steps to make affordable housing more accessible for those in need, and without the support of our partners, this couldn't happen. Ultimately, it's about coming together to do what's best for the people.

Under Emergency Social Services, as you know, the department's mandate is to look after the province's most vulnerable. For a long time that also included looking after Nova Scotians during an emergency, but Community Services is not the expert when it comes to emergency management so we turned to the Canadian Red Cross and signed a historic agreement that formally put the Red Cross and its volunteers on the front lines to help Nova Scotians in an emergency. This agreement was renewed earlier this year for another 10 years. It will let our caseworkers look after the daily needs of the province's most vulnerable, but ensure that all Nova Scotians are taken care of in an emergency. Together, Community Services and the Red Cross work with individuals and other organizations to ensure Nova Scotians get what they need in an emergency.

 

It is a creative agreement and brings Community Services, the Red Cross, and Nova Scotians together to help each other when disaster strikes, and it is wonderful to see how we come together for each other when it truly counts. Caring for Nova Scotians during an emergency brings us together and makes life better for all of us. When we come together as a community, great things do happen - lives are saved, families are reunited, and homes are rebuilt. Together with our partners at the Red Cross and our fellow Nova Scotians, we are ready and able to face emergencies head-on. This is incredibly comforting to me, as I am sure it is comforting to you. The Department of Community Services is about helping Nova Scotians build strong vibrant communities - what we do truly matters. We are part of the Nova Scotia community and we take our responsibility to help our province's most vulnerable very seriously.

 

Madam Chairman, low-income Nova Scotians are honest, hard-working and caring people whose circumstances have made it difficult for them to fully support themselves or their families. They would much rather be independent, earning a decent living and providing for their loved ones, but life hasn't worked out that way. They struggle to make ends meet and they worry about their children's future. All political Parties believe and support the collective fight against poverty. The persistence of poverty in so many lives is something shared by countries all over the world. We must do our part to alleviate the hardship that families and individuals face in their daily lives. It's our job to help these Nova Scotians. It is our job to help them get the skills they need to find a job, to help cover the cost of child care so they can work or to go to school, and to help them put nutritious food on the table.

 

So this is one area where government is investing - even in these frugal times. The people we're investing in could tell us a thing or two about living within our means; they live in it in a very real way. Every single day they have to consider every penny and spend it wisely. So do we, Madam Chairman, and we believe our investments in Nova Scotians in need are wise indeed. I would like to outline those investments now, beginning with $1 million worth of measures that we announced late last year.

 

We made changes to the income assistance rules to ensure people are not denied benefits because of decisions made in the best interest of their families - for example, shelter benefits are not reduced when a youth turns 19 if he or she is a college or university student living at home; people on income assistance who move in with a partner are now able to keep a substantial portion of their benefits for the first year of the relationship; the amount of money people can keep as assets, such as savings, doubled, so they have some money set aside for emergencies; and eye exams are now fully funded. This government also removed the provincial portion of the HST from children's clothes, shoes and diapers, making essential items for every Nova Scotian family more affordable.

 

Last, but certainly not least, we worked with the Department of Finance to introduce the Affordable Living Tax Credit and the Poverty Reduction Credit. These measures help families keep more money in their own pockets and they mark a change in direction for government, a new way of looking at how we provide support to people in need. This Poverty Reduction Credit is a significant step towards alleviating poverty. Our Income Assistance Programs show there are about 13,000 Nova Scotians who are unable to work, usually because they have a disability or cope with barriers that prevent them from working.

 

For these individuals, income assistance is their lifeline. These are the Nova Scotians we need to help first with the poverty credit. We've heard from poverty reduction advocates and we have listened. This new credit shows our government's commitment to tackling poverty in a different way. Nova Scotians who receive this credit will also be eligible for the Affordable Living Tax Credit. These two credits combine will mean $440 dollars more in their pockets every year - it is significantly more than what has been given through income assistance rate increases in the past.

 

We recognize how difficult and expensive it is to raise a family these days, so we also introduced the Affordable Living Tax Credit last year as part our commitment to make life more affordable. This tax credit is putting money back into the hands of Nova Scotians living on low or modest incomes. That includes Nova Scotians who may not be eligible for help through income assistance. It means that households earning less than $30,000 receive quarterly payments, similar to the existing GST credit. It returns about $240 per household and $57 per dependent child every year. So an eligible family with two children would have an additional $354 per year to help make life more affordable. Those earning up to $34,800 also receive a portion of the credit.

 

While we work as a government to live within our means we want to help families and low-income earners to keep more of their hard-earned dollars and the Affordable Living Tax Credit does that. This year, Madam Chairman, we're improving on a good thing. We recognize that the cost of living continues to rise. I see it in my own grocery bills every week, especially with an 18-year-old son. Imagine how someone with a very limited amount of money feels when trying to buy healthy food to put on the table when the prices keep rising. So this year the province is indexing these tax credits to ensure that they will keep pace with inflation.

 

To continue providing these credits in 2011-12 and to index them beginning July 1^st we are investing a total of $71.9 million. This investment will help families pay for the increasing cost of essentials like food and clothing; it will help families make ends meet. Madam Chairman, we are also continuing our commitment to Nova Scotian families by investing further in the Income Assistance Program. It helps people with the cost of basic needs such as food, clothing, rent, and utilities like heat and electricity. This year we will increase the personal allowance rate by $15 per month, so the amount will increase from $214 a month to $229 a month. When you put this together with the changes we've made since 2009 with things like the Affordable Living Tax Credit, a single parent on income assistance with two kids could see almost $90 extra per month. These are some of the biggest changes we have ever seen in a decade.

 

This increase will help recipients buy nutritious food for themselves and their families, which is critical to helping Nova Scotia become a healthier province. We anticipate this change will help about 31,400 Nova Scotians in need. Next, we're addressing the amount of money that income assistance recipients who are working can earn and keep for themselves. These low-income, working Nova Scotians can currently keep 30 per cent of what they earn in addition to their income assistance. We're making a change so they can keep more - and I heard this loud and clear from many individuals and advocacy groups. We're introducing a flat rate of $150 that people can keep, plus their 30 per cent of the remaining amount.

 

Disabled income assistance recipients working in a supportive employment will be able to keep $300 - that's double the current rate. They also will continue to keep 30 per cent of anything they make above that.

 

There are almost 3,000 Nova Scotians who will actually benefit from this change, and it's a change that benefits our provincial economy too, because it encourages more people on income assistance to enter and stay in the workforce. These changes for income assistance recipients represent an annual investment of nearly $9.4 million. Madam Chairman, these are significant improvements to our Income Assistance Program and they will result in significant improvements in the day-to-day lives of Nova Scotians who rely on this support.

 

Let me take a moment to focus on Target 100. We are also helping low-income Nova Scotians to be independent and support their families by connecting them with good jobs at co-op organizations around this province. In partnership with the Nova Scotia Co-operative Council, our government continues to move forward on the exciting employment initiative, Target 100, and that was launched last year. Target 100 connects real people with real jobs in their community; well-paying jobs with benefits, profit sharing and opportunities for advancement. Over the next four years, the Department of Community Services and the Nova Scotia Co-operative Council will recruit and train 100 people on income assistance for jobs with co-ops in their community; jobs for Nova Scotians all over the province, jobs that meet today's labour market needs. So far, 24 people have found jobs and 11 people are training through Target 100.

 

In year one, we were aiming to make 20 connections, so we're very excited that we have met and surpassed our goal. Target 100 is creating opportunities for Nova Scotians who need a helping hand to secure a job, raise their families, and build a life.

 

I've already noted one piece of support that is improving for people with disabilities, and now I'd like to continue to outline other measures we're taking specifically for these Nova Scotians. While many people with disabilities face challenges, they contribute in many ways to the social and economic fabric of our communities. Our aim is to help Nova Scotians with disabilities reach their full potential by providing the appropriate support to them and their families.

 

The range of program and services offered by the department serve children, youth and adults with intellectual disabilities, long-term mental illness, and physical disabilities in a variety of community-based residential and vocational day programs. These are voluntary programs designed to support about 5,100 people at various stages of development and independence. One of these programs is the Direct Family Support program, which helps families who are caring for a child with a disability. It covers things like respite care when parents need a break, or other special needs like medication or transportation. This year, we are changing eligibility guidelines for this program so that more low- to modest- income families will qualify. This represents an investment of $650,000.

 

We're also addressing a long-standing issue with this program for disabled people. This program was designed to provide support up to the age of 18, but many programs for adults don't kick in until the age of 19, so some 70 families a year have found themselves facing a year-long gap in the system's support.

 

We're fixing that this year, Madam Chairman, because we have talked to these individuals and we have listened, and so we are investing $500,000 to introduce a transitional support program to help these families bridge the gap until their child turns 19 and they can access programs now for adults. This will help families continue to care for their disabled children at home in a stable, nurturing family environment. We're also investing in our programs for Nova Scotia adults with disabilities. Earlier this week we announced $825,000 to expand two programs - Alternative Family Support and Independent Living Support.

 

Alternative Family Support gives people with disabilities the opportunity to live in a family setting with a family other than their own. The program matches an individual with a caring family and provides funding to help support them. The Independent Living Support Program helps people with disabilities to live on their own with up to 21 hours a week of support. Both of these programs help Nova Scotians with disabilities to stay and be a vital member of their community. With this funding, 50 more people will be able to participate in these two programs. This is good for the individuals and it's good for their families who want to see their loved ones live and thrive in their communities.

 

Another way that Nova Scotians with disabilities often thrive is through day programs where they are productive members of their communities engaged in a variety of fulfilling activities. Day programs include support of employment skill training and vocational programming across the province. They are wonderful programs that make a real difference in people's lives. Unfortunately, there simply haven't been enough spots for all the families who would benefit from them, so that's why we're investing $500,000 to allow more Nova Scotians with disabilities to attend and reap the benefits. This investment also helps families of people who attend because it means parents and other caregivers are able to work and support their families knowing that their loved one is well cared for and engaged in appropriate activities for their development.

 

Another support we're introducing for families will make it easier to find the right professionals for the particular needs of each person with disabilities. You know, sometimes it's a wild goose chase trying to find the right expert to give the right support at the right time and in the right place. And that shouldn't happen, so we're investing $200,000 to launch a wonderful initiative of new outreach teams. It will include a variety of specialists such as social workers, psychologists, and occupational therapists, and it will be community based. We're starting with a team in the western region of the province and plan to expand to other regions over the course of the next two years. These investments for Nova Scotians with disabilities and their families total more than $2.5 million. We have increased the investments in programs and services for persons with disabilities, and this is incredible, by $19 million since 2009 - in two short years, $19 million. They are investments in quality of life for Nova Scotians who need our help and always have something to offer to their communities.

 

Madam Chairman, I would like to now turn my attention to children. The children of Nova Scotia, as we know, are our investment, are our future, and any investment we make in them is an investment in the future prosperity of our province - and no one will argue that. For low-income families it can be a struggle to provide everything that a young child needs to have a good start in life, so we're doing everything we can to help. We provide the Nova Scotia Child Benefit to all families with low incomes under $23,000, to help them with the cost of raising a child until they turn 18.

In 2009, this government increased the qualifying income for the benefit so more low-income families would be eligible. This year the province is making an annual investment of $4.8 million to increase the monthly benefit by 22 per cent - that's almost $100 per year for families with one child. It is the first increase in the Child Benefit in 10 years. Over the next two years the benefit will increase by $180 per child, so for a single child, the benefit will increase from $445 per year to almost $625 per year. This measure alone will help more than 40,000 children in Nova Scotia get the basics they need to grow up to be healthy, educated adults.

 

My department is committed to improving life for Nova Scotian families in a variety of ways. One of them is supporting early learning for our province's youngest citizens, which is so critical to a child's successful development. For far too many families, the availability of affordable child care can mean the difference between parents going to work or not. We are working to make child care more affordable and accessible for Nova Scotians. This government has been steadily increasing the number of child care subsidies available in Nova Scotia. Now let me be clear, these are subsidies, they're not spaces in child care centres, so if a child is eligible and is granted a subsidy it can be used at any licenced day care centre in the province. Last year we added 400 more subsidies.

 

This year we are meeting our platform commitment and investing $1.3 million to create 250 more subsidies. This brings the total number of subsidies available to children in low-income families to the incredible number of 4,430. It means giving more children a great start in life, while their parents provide for their families. At a time when belts are being tightened throughout government, this is a wise investment in our children and in our families, and it is the right thing to do. This is one example of how we're working to strengthen the quality and accessibility of child care in Nova Scotia and to improve supports for low-income families who need child care to go to work or school.

 

This investment in subsidies builds on other support for child care that we introduced last year. They include grants to child care operators for staff salaries and benefits, professional growth for child care educators, and general operating expenses; more than $6 million for new and expanded child care centres across the province; and the elimination of the assessed daily parent fee for subsidies. These measures all work to make child care more affordable and more available, while supporting child care professionals in providing the best care for our children.

 

Madam Chairman, I would like to now focus on foster care. This is a very important investment for children. Across the province, about 800 families have experienced the heart-warming rewards of opening their homes to foster children. Foster families play a valuable role in our child welfare system - they provide children and youth in need with a safe and loving place to live. Many of these children are removed through no fault of their own from their family home for short periods of time, until their home is once again stable and safe. Foster families are loving, caring people who want to give support and a safe home to a child in need. We know they do not do this to get rich. Taking a foster child is very challenging. Beyond the emotional support these children need, there is a financial cost involved in caring for them, even if only for a short period of time.

 

We recognize the important role that foster families play in the lives of children and in our communities and we recognize the need to do more to support them, and that's why we raised our foster care rate by 10 per cent last year. It was the first increase since 2006 and that is why this year we are once again increasing the rate for foster families by more than 10 per cent. This is an additional annual investment of $1.2 million and it means foster families will get about $50 more per month per child.

 

Now, that may not seem like much but, believe me, when I looked the eyes of the foster parents and was able to tell them this, how thrilled they were that someone finally recognized their needs. Foster parent, Paula LeBlanc, actually attended our announcement last week and she said $50 more means that they have more cash for day-to-day living expenses - like simple things, for laundry detergent and some extra groceries for the family. This is concrete help for Nova Scotians who are reaching out to care for children and youth who, for whatever reason, cannot live with their birth families.

 

Madam Chairman, from beginning to end these measures are all designed to help make life better for Nova Scotian families. Strong Nova Scotians are the key to a strong Nova Scotia. We can't afford to leave any resources untapped if we want to succeed as a province. Our people are our greatest resource and finally we have a government that is recognizing that.

 

Nova Scotia has a declining population, an aging workforce, and a shrinking tax base. If we want to grow as a province we need to make sure everyone in our communities has the chance to contribute to the best of their abilities. We need strong Nova Scotians who participate -and I don't just mean in the workforce, I mean out there participating in their communities and being part of their community, because everyone has something to share.

 

We cannot continue to have people in this province held back because they didn't get the support they needed to get an education or training, or access to transportation or food, or to escape violence. We can't afford it as a province, and it's just wrong. We need every Nova Scotian at their best. I know there are many in this room who would like us to go farther and faster - so would I, more needs to be done and we will do more to help.

 

The challenge we face around the economy doesn't allow us to do everything right now, but we will continue to take steps to improve the supports we provide and make the ESIA program one of opportunity and empowerment. In the meantime we will keep talking to the people we help. They told us they wanted the changes we have recently announced, like those to income assistance and we listened, and we will continue to listen and work with them to end up with a program that best serves the people who need it.

 

Every investment we make in helping lower-income Nova Scotians make ends meet is an investment in the future of our province, because when we help people become more independent and able to support themselves and their families then we strengthen our communities and strengthen our economy, and that is good for all of Nova Scotia and for all Nova Scotians.

 

Thank you, Madam Chairman, for the opportunity to enlighten and inform people of all the hard work the Department of Community Services is doing for Nova Scotians.

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Madam Minister, for that introduction.

 

Before I welcome the honourable member for Glace Bay-New Waterford to the discussion I'd just to ask if I could, Madam Minister, on behalf of Hansard, would you be able to move your laptop just a little bit so that the cameras and technicians can see the light, so we know who's on first?

 

Thank you very much, and with that I would like to welcome the honourable member for Glace Bay-New Waterford, and you have until 10:40 a.m. for your questioning.

 

MR. GEOFF MACLELLAN: Thank you, Madam Chairman, and just for the record, New Waterford belongs to the Deputy Premier, so I don't want any of that spot, he can certainly have that, but thank you very much.

 

I want to open my remarks by saying that I've had quite the learning curve over the last ten months I've been in the Legislature. As Community Services Critic, there are, without question, daunting challenges with the department and with the programs that are offered. They serve those people in the community and certainly in my community of Glace Bay - and New Waterford, I'm sure, Madam Chairman - and the people from end to end in this province. It's the people who need it the most, and they certainly need the help.

 

I do want to say that I commend the minister, I've looked back through some of the information and some of the material and some of the budgets over the last number of years, and it's a fight at the Cabinet Table, I think it's safe to say. The minister works closely with the departments to figure out what the priorities are and what has to be done, so I'm certainly glad that the minister has stepped up and pushed in some of these measures and brought some new money to the table. It's certainly going to help.

 

Before I jump into some of the program stuff, I just want to ask a quick question, a very general question in terms of the budget. From what I gather here with the numbers, last year's estimate was $972 million, give or take? This year's estimate is $985 million, so that's a $13 million increase, but it looks like last year's budget was underspent by $15 million according to the estimates. There's a budget increase of $13 million, but there was cost savings, or underspending, of $15 million - is there a specific envelope or line item or series of line items that would account for that?

 

That's my opening question and we'll get some specific questions on the budget in a little bit, but just generally speaking.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Certainly there's an explanation. The underspending you will find is in the child care sector, because of the rolling out of the stimulus dollars.

 

As you know, when you are building facilities there are often construction issues and situations where the construction has slowed down. Some of the areas within the child care, with the daycare centres, you have to remember that they are run by a board of directors who are volunteers so sometimes it takes a little bit of a time frame for them to get all of their process and plans together after we have announced funding available. That's where the underfunding or under budget is, it's because it hasn't all rolled out in the time frame that we originally budgeted for.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: For purposes of Hansard, I will note that the member for Halifax Atlantic has left the Chair for awhile. The chairing has been taken over by myself, the member for Halifax Chebucto.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: Thank you. Is there a specific number that you can attribute to that in terms of the physical infrastructure? There have been some reductions in some of the line items, so the overestimates would account for that?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Yes, it would equal $9 million.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: Again, we'll go back to some of the specifics on the budget in the coming time.

 

I want to start off by asking, again probably, a general question and you have identified some of these things in your opening remarks, but a significant amount of investment in terms of the budget relative to what's been spent and those types of things. I guess what we all have to look at - I'm sure that your office and your department do - is what is the net effect on families? When you break it down per month and you break it down per child and per household, I think that's sort of where the rubber hits the road in terms of what are the impacts of these things.

 

So, $15 per month for families, the aggregate number means a lot - $15 per month obviously it's an easy comment to say that's not enough, but it's a start and it's a help. Listen, that could be milk, eggs and bread, and those types of things. So it is an injection and I think it helps.

 

Of all the things we've discussed over my time here, one of the key statistics that really sticks in my head in terms of income assistance and employment support in Community Services is the fact that 50 per cent of food bank usage is by individuals who are on income assistance. So what that says basically is that a significant number of the 31,000 who are receiving income assistance, they're not making ends meet and they have to resort to the food bank which, again, is obviously a vital social service that we have here in Nova Scotia and it plays an important role. So, you know, that's a concern.

 

What I was really encouraged to see, and we've spoken about this personally, I think that the portion of the budget and your announcements about people who are on income assistance being able to keep more of their income, that is to me a giant step in the right direction because that's the intent of the program, ESIA - it's employment support. So let's get people back in the active workforce. I think that's key, so for me that was encouraging to see.

 

I guess my opening question on this stuff, in terms of a departmental philosophy, can you speak to what the general sort of plan is to move towards getting people back into the workforce and sort of, you know, take advantage of the employment support portion of Community Services? So we are using income assistance and these measures to provide an extra $15 a month and provide a tax credit and those types of things but, to me, fundamentally - we talk about fundamental changes in the program and in the department and what I see is, you know, let's start to develop it, and what you do and the measures taken this year certainly have an impact immediately, and how moderate that impact is, people can debate that, but it does have an impact. For me, long term, I think that the focus of this program should shift somewhat into the employment support - so, generally speaking, where do you see that going?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Certainly we understand and realize that it's not just one easy solution, and part of the direction that we're going in is to look at the services within Community Services that looks at people as individuals and what those needs are and what services can be wrapped around that particular individual. So if you're speaking about a person who needs assistance with the labour market, being more employable, what we're doing is we're collaborating presently with the new Department of Labour and Advanced Education to look at is it better for that department to work with DCS and have more responsibilities moved over into Labour and Advanced Education, because that's where you have your expertise, that's where you have the planning in terms of the jobsHere, our strategy.

 

So what we have to make sure is that we're not working in a silo-type process which I think, unfortunately, has been part of the past. So what we're looking at is, okay, who has the strengths and ability to take that as a leadership, and which department can support another department in that leadership? So that's what we're looking at presently and formulating the plan on how to do that. That will make incredible advancements, I believe, in the fact that you're going to have the focus with a department that sees the entire picture on the jobsHere today, and also the strategy moving towards more jobs in the Province of Nova Scotia, where those jobs best fitted for individuals, looking at it in a holistic manner and looking at it in all communities across the province.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: From what I see in Glace Bay, and again in my role as the critic, I see some of the issues that people face who rely on Community Services and the Employment Support and Income Assistance. Basically, number one, it's a daily struggle to make ends meet - as you know; and secondly, there are issues with self-esteem and confidence. And sometimes figuring out what the process is through the Department of Community Services may sort of take a backseat to getting the kids clothed and fed and paying the rent. I guess if you could articulate a little bit on what is it when a front-line worker, when a caseworker at a Department of Community Services location, meets with a client, what specifically is the process or what specifically is the road map set out for that person to be able to tap into these things with the labour board and with the things as you mentioned?

 

Basically what I'm saying is sometimes people will need a nudge to realize that this is more than just income on a monthly basis. There is a pathway and an option for people to get back in the active workforce. From a front-line, at-the-grassroots level, how does that process unfold and how do you get people interested and excited about the prospects of getting back in the workforce?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: There are many elements to your question, so I'm going to focus on a few of those. First, I know the difficulty in terms of how much income individuals on income assistance have and that's why we've made great strides in those areas. I think to put it in perspective too is that we basically, when you hear that there's an increase of $15 per month, you have to put that in perspective in the fact that it was only a few years ago, before we came in as a government, that the annual increases went anywhere from $4 to $6 per month, so quite a bit of an increase there, and of course, with the introduction last year of the two tax credits added on top of that for some Nova Scotians, that is available to them.

 

You have to look at the various programs where we have increased funding if you bundle it together. For example, at the lowest end of the spectrum there are individuals on income assistance who are now receiving $700 per year more than they did two years ago. That's quite a large increase. If you look at the farthest end of the spectrum, if you take a young mother with two children and now you bundle all those increases like the 22 per cent increase in the Child Tax Benefit, the Poverty Reduction Credit, et cetera, et cetera, they actually are now receiving, within a two-year period, over $2,300 per year. I would say that is absolutely incredible because I know sometimes you just look at things in certain components and you hear a $15 increase, but don't realize that these programs can be bundled together.

 

So I think that it does say that we definitely are focused on increasing those dollars and it says a lot for our government in terms of the financial constraints that we face, but at the same time - as I mentioned in my opening words - the fact is that we believe that people are an investment; they're an economic investment, so that is the philosophy that we have.

 

With respect to encouraging individuals to be able to get into the workforce or participate, we have created some other new initiatives in the department too. For the first time we seconded a staff person who is now in the head office and is responsible as a navigator. He is a navigator for clients, he is a navigator for you as an MLA, and he is a navigator for me as Minister of Community Services. If somebody stops me on the street, they've had an issue, they just don't seem to be able to get any further - I think what is most frustrating for individuals is the fact that sometimes they may not understand the process, they may not understand why they were not able to get a special need or whatever.

 

I'm striving and working very hard with staff to make many differences in how we communicate to individuals - even as simple as how we communicate verbally, how we communicate in letters to inform them, give more explanation, and not to have a letter written that you need to be a lawyer to understand it. I think there are so many different areas that we need to focus on, not just one area. With that position, for example, if you have a client you can refer that client to Randy Acker who is the individual who is our navigator, and what he does is he goes back over the entire case and he'll go over it again with our staff people.

 

What I'd like to say upfront is the fact that it didn't take me very long, becoming the Minister of Community Services, to see how dedicated and hard-working the staff are in that department. It is a department where staff have received a great deal of criticism. Honestly and truthfully, it's not anything to do with the staff; it's the system - it's the big, bad old system that has set them up. There are many times that I don't know how they do their jobs and look at somebody and say, no, I can't give you any more or I can't help you here.

 

The other thing with the way the system is, is that it is a cookie-cutter system. If you just don't quite fit into that mould you may not receive a service that you deserve to receive or you should have, because of course we have to look in the long term - it's like being preventive. We can't say no to a need and then what is going to happen is down the road that individual, because we may not have been able to support them in one area because of a long-standing policy, then what occurs is they may - if it's with respect to health - get more ill and eventually become a part of the health care system and cost a lot more.

 

We have to be much more open in how we approach working with people and how we approach providing a service within the Department of Community Services. We have to be more holistic; we can't look within just the silo of the Department of Community Services. So we have a staff person there who can go back and retrace the steps of a case and look and turn over every stone to see whether or not we can come out with a different response to that individual.

 

Sometimes we can't, but I have discovered that people respect the fact that you've taken the time to review again their situation. They respect the fact that if you give them an appropriate understanding explanation - and the other thing that it does for me as a minister is it allows me to see and discover a policy that may not make any sense because there are many policies and it's impossible to go into this position and discover and know every policy.

 

The other thing that it does for us is that now Randy is able to provide us with stats, and this is fabulous. We've never had this in the Department of Community Services before. What happens now is I'm able to see, even geographically and through different demographics within the Province of Nova Scotia, where there are particular issues that may be recurring. So is there a problem here that may be in Cape Breton that we keep hearing a particular issue or problems that haven't been resolved?

 

It enables us to pinpoint is there an issue within the Department of Community Services here, or is there a societal issue that we're dealing with, or are we dealing with a policy issue? We've never had that research material available to the department before, so by having a navigator there - and I certainly encourage you and any of your colleagues to utilize Randy's services because it has made incredible differences for those people who have been very frustrated and felt like they were at the end of the road and couldn't go any further.

 

The other very important - I mentioned in my words too - was the Target 100 and working with another organization outside of government to create employment. I think it's incredible that we would have 24 participants already that have been involved and received employment. This is not an overnight thing that you can just have people go into a job situation and have the ability to do it. There's a lot of the training aspect, there's a lot of personal discovery for that individual to see where their weaknesses and strengths are - what we have to do to provide them with the ability to do better in certain areas.

 

Working with another agency or a business outside, co-operatives outside of government, I think is a wonderful and a new initiative. I think one of the things that I have been encouraging people to listen to me about is the fact that government cannot do it on its own. We need to encourage more partnerships, and those partnerships need to come from all levels of government, the partnerships need to come from within communities, within corporate level. We all have a stake in the investment of humans and people and their ability to get into the job market in the province here.

 

The other aspect I think you'll be interested in learning is we've taken on a huge undertaking and that is called Service Delivery Transformation. That's a major project; we're looking at transforming the entire way that Community Services does business. As you mentioned in your question, it is extremely confusing for people. Often if they come into Community Services and because they are a human being they have many different needs. They're not just under the auspices of Community Services. It isn't any good to tell that person okay, we can help you here, but we can't help you there, and you need to go to Health for this and you need Justice for this and then just sort of say, good luck with that and let them go out the door to try to fend for themselves. That doesn't work; they are discouraged and they're not going to take it any further. That's what I'm talking about when you talk about wraparound services - identifying what their particular needs are and helping navigate the system for them.

 

What we're looking at is developing a single-entry system. So you come to Community Services and we look at you as a human being and we find out what your needs are. We have the knowledge base of where you need to go - and we just don't send you out the door and say go find it on your own. We wraparound our services and we take you through that process, so it is a continuum of services to an individual.

 

We often talk about the continuum services of long-term care, but this is a continuum of a life service for an individual, whether they come to us at the age of 19, 32 or 52, we identify what their needs are and how far along do we need to carry that service with them to enable them to become self-sufficient. So the Service Delivery Transformation, as you can understand, is a huge undertaking. We have over 2,000 staff, who will need to be motivated, accept a different way of doing business, change a culture that has been there for many years, and look at their client base in a very different way.

 

One of the models that I'm encouraging staff to utilize to make this change is called a restorative approach model. You'll be interested to know the restorative approach model is very exciting to me. You've probably heard of restorative justice before and it has worked very well in the Province of Nova Scotia - we are leaders in terms of restorative justice in the entire world and we're seen as that. In fact, in June - put this in your calendar and I'll make sure you get a pamphlet - Halifax and Nova Scotia is hosting the World Conference of Restorative Practices, so there will be countries from throughout the world that will be here.

 

One of the cities that Nova Scotia has been partnering with is Hull, in England, and what they've done is they've made a major commitment to restorative approaches, not just restorative justice. Why they have an interest in partnering with us is because we have done so well in restorative justice and they want to learn more about that and how we were able to get to the point that we are.

 

But, on the other hand, what they have done with restorative approaches is that they have infused it in their social services, which is really interesting. So they use this approach that is is similar to our Aboriginal communities - you know, how they have the circle of coming together and having a discussion, and try to have more of a solution-oriented process.

 

I think that's where we have failed in the past in a variety of our government departments, that we will often say oh no, we can't do it and that's it, no more, rather than looking at it in terms of okay, we haven't done it before but is there a way that we can do it that we can all work together, that we can all compromise, and we can discuss how we can reach that goal.

 

In order to do that you have to have everybody on the same playing field in terms of you have to have staff thinking that way. When there's an issue we don't want to just say no. We want to discuss it, we want to bring the person involved - and it goes up through your whole organization, even when you have staff meetings, your staff meetings are held around the restorative approaches.

 

Wouldn't it be nice to do that in the House? There would be none of this standing up and sort of yelling back and forth and accusing.

 

AN HON. MEMBER: Boring.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: No, it wouldn't be boring, people would be delighted because what they would see is us actually sitting there and we could make it into a circle and we'd have an issue and we'd all be sitting there trying to resolve that - don't give me that look. I know that you're new and you're having fun with that part, but that's what it's all about. I know in your heart and in your colleagues' hearts, we are all here for the same reason - we want to help people. That's why we got involved in being a politician - right? That's why.

 

So that's the restorative approach - we can't lose sight of who we are here for. Sometimes in the way that governance has been set up - and I understand that you need Opposition in order to keep the government on their toes and so forth, but it's almost gone too far in the sense that we often lose sight of what are we really here for. Are we here to put on theatre in the Chamber or are we here to make sure that we are finding a solution together for that problem for an individual, for a family, or for a community? That's what the restorative approach is all about.

 

As I said, I'm very excited with the fact that the City of Hull has used that approach. How they've done it is they made a commitment as an entire city. They don't have like a provincial government in England, and that's why we're matching up with the city because their government structure, their city would be similar to a province. Then the next level is what would be our federal level, so there's not that other level there.

 

They utilize this restorative approach by having family conferencing centres, so that's where families and facilitators know the model of restorative approaches. That's how they try to resolve a lot of issues within social services. That means bringing to the table the people who may be very angry about an issue, but they don't look at the government as being an adversary to them, that they have to be fighting with them. They look at the government as we need to discuss this and see - everybody's mindset is we're working towards a solution.

 

They've done it in foster care, they've done it in their daycare systems, they've implemented it in their school system, and it's quite incredible so I'm excited, and actually some of the senior level managers who are involved in this in Hull will be here in June and actually they're coming right into the Department of Community Services and are going to give us some workshops so we can discover a little bit more of how they implemented it, how they roll it out, how they continue to keep it going within their city.

 

A little story on their school system and what they do - it's quite incredible. Where I was talking to you about wraparound services and trying to identify the needs of the individual - I'll give you an example. When a child goes into the school system there in the City of Hull and they may be having some issues, what they do is that the school itself will bring the parents in, the siblings in of that child, and they have a program called Signatures - this was created by an English company and they're going to be at the conference and they are interested in rolling this out in Nova Scotia, if we have an interest in that - what they do is they have a huge sheet of paper, believe it or not, with different blocks on it that mean different things. They may mean do your parents read to you enough, or is this an issue? They try to identify issues in the family, whether there might be issues with alcohol abuse and so forth.

 

What they try to do in this process is put everybody on the same page, and how they do it is it is all colour-coded, so each one in the family colours it in the colour they think represents their family and then they compare it. When they compare it, they are able to see, for example, a child may be saying well Mom and Dad really do not spend much time with me in terms of reading, and I would love more time. But the parent is thinking, in their busy daily lives, that because they read to them Saturday night that it is plenty. So they identify oh, there's a gap, there's a gap in that family. The parents think they are fulfilling that need, and the child says no. Then they work on how can we increase the reading, what supports do you need, as a family, to help you to read more to your child? That's just a simplified example.

 

I know that one of the questions I had for him is that those individuals or families that need that kind of support are probably the last ones who will show up at the school to get any help with this, so I asked: How do you reach them? Of course you know they love pubs in England - and they said we've done this in pubs, we've done this in people's backyards, in their gardens. We go where they are, if they are intimidated to come to the school. I think that's a real lesson to us. The fact is that we can't stay in our ivory towers and make decisions and think that those decisions are going to work for people. We go where they are, and where their needs are.

 

This has been very successful because with this program they are able to computerize it all. So with the hit of a switch or a button they are able to see how they track that family. If they have agreed that they need to do more reading and this is the support the school has to give them in order to increase that level of reading, then they are able to track it over time and see if that is happening. Then when they come back together again with the facilitator and they put on the screen and they see it's not happening, then they know there's a barrier and they've got to do something else to get around that barrier - right?

 

I think that we can learn from others and we have to be totally open to that. So I think that with these changes that we are looking at making and some that are very innovative changes, that we certainly hope we get the support of our Opposition colleagues to move forward because there tends to often be a pressure, you know - oh, well why are you changing this or you've always done it this way. I think we need to be working more together and we need to be open to do things differently. Does that answer your question?

 

MR. MACLELLAN: Yes. I do appreciate that answer and I'm - first of all, I would agree with pretty much everything you said. I would caution you, though, early on in your answer you used the word "bundle" and my phone company uses the word bundle and I pay about $3,000 a month, so don't use that word, it's dangerous.

 

That was a joke - for the record, that was a joke, everybody.

 

I've said it before; I said it in my opening comments - every measure you've taken, every increase that you've been able to push through is meaningful. You know I mean that if I say it, and I see those effects. You are right, when you do bundle or couple or combine all of those things, you know families will see an increase in their standard of living and it will help to buy a few things that they need, for sure. I would recognize that and I would say it in the House and I would say it at caucus because that's the truth.

 

But again - and you did go into this - the initial sort of premise of my question wasI think we need a philosophical change in direction in terms of how we look at the people, the 31,000 who are receiving income assistance and how we get them into the workforce. I think that - you've mentioned incremental programs that will help that, however, I think your attitude towards getting there and improving it sort of day-by-day is significant, so I do appreciate that and I certainly look forward to those changes and those improvements in that side of the program.

 

I just want to ask you specifically about the Target 100 - well, two questions. Is there a component for persons with disabilities that is sort of carved out with Target 100? And, secondly, we had an incredible presentation at the Community Services Committee from Dress for Success. I know there are many key, valuable organizations out there and you mentioned partnerships and you mentioned non-profits and businesses and those types of things - is there any specific relationship with Dress for Success in Halifax?

 

I think I speak for all members of the committee when I say we were blown away by what they offer. It's not about clothing and it's not about the aesthetics of a person trying to re-enter the workforce, it's about the mindset and the support they give. So is there any specific tie-in to Target 100 and, again, persons with disabilities who are specifically earmarked under that program?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you very much for the question. I also want to express to you that I truly appreciate your sincerity. I know that you and I have had many discussions and that you are truly committed to moving the agenda along to help people in Nova Scotia, and I think that you and I have really taken the restorative approach because we discuss solutions to see how we can resolve it, even if it's an individual issue or if it's an overall issue within the department.

 

I agree with you in terms of the partnerships, and that was one of the first priorities for me, to allow stakeholders and service-providers know quite quickly that I have a bit of a different way of doing business and that was inviting them to the table. It has been an incredible process for me because there have been people brought to the table who were never brought to a minister's table. At the same time, they're providing services or they are major stakeholders in the lives of people in Nova Scotia, yet they were never asked their opinion or even been asked to participate in a process of sort of discovery - like where can we go and how do we get there?

 

With Dress for Success, yes, the department was involved when it initially was established; we provided rent-free space here in the city. I totally agree with you, that that's one partnership. There's many opportunities of partnerships and that would be something, too, that we can also work towards as we make that transition to have Labour and Advanced Education focus on the income assistance recipients and low-income individuals and families in Nova Scotia as they are focusing on developing an employment strategy, Dress for Success could certainly be part of that.

 

Now I've also heard recently from one of our Opposition colleagues that there's some discussion of creating a men's Dress for Success-type branch or organization, which I think is a fabulous idea to go forward with. You are exactly right, the partnerships are critical and also within Target 100 you've asked about supporting those with disabilities and, yes, certainly if an individual is part of that program and they have a disability, that would certainly be something that would be supported through Target 100, to assist them in the workplace and to identify what their needs are. There may be tech needs that they have, there may be transportation needs, and within Community Services, as you know, we have a whole division that is focused on persons with disabilities. That's been one area also that we have made some major strides in, in the last two years, in terms of opening doors and working with people in the disability sector and bringing them to the table.

 

We're presently working with the Disabled Persons Commission and other individuals throughout the province - we have a working group now that is working on all areas of disability in the province, and that's for the first time ever.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: Thank you. I just want to ask you now about the poverty cycle, the cycle of poverty that we have here and certainly across the country and across the world. We're all familiar with the cycle where families get trapped in for three generations and it creates many difficulties to break the cycle and sort of get on a path to a higher standard of living.

 

I was absolutely captivated by the documentary "Four Feet Up" and I think that, for myself and for many of the members who were there, it really shines a light on the working poor, which is a number that's much more difficult to quantify when you're looking at those who are receiving income assistance and who are supported by Community Services. Those statistics are real and they're there - to identify the working poor and help those families is a little tougher.

 

So I guess from your department's perspective, you've got income assistance, affordable housing, early intervention and child care, persons with disabilities, residential care and that's just the surface and it gets much deeper than that, so you have all these components. Just again, generally, from your own perspective and what you believe and what you see as the minister - what are the single biggest components and, in terms of that, where do you inject the public dollars and the department's funds to break that cycle? What specifically is your feeling on how you cut that cycle for families and change direction?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you very much for that question. I'm pleased that you have recognized the working poor, because that's one area where the staff have heard from me in terms of that is a segment of our population that I am very concerned about. One of the difficulties and the challenges, when we're looking at the increases to income assistance and we're looking at the other programs available to individuals and families on income assistance and we strive to increase them, there's always the balance, too, of those individuals who are working poor.

 

You cannot have a situation where somebody just puts their arms up in the air and says, oh, I'm better off on income assistance than I am with what I'm bringing in to my family, so there's a balance there.

 

We do have to, as we are making changes within the department and as you listed all the responsibilities we have, there are great needs in all those areas. Unfortunately, it hasn't been sort of the politically attractive area for many years to invest, so we're not even starting at a level playing field as a new government coming in, we're way behind, trying to bring people up to par, where they should be, and have the right to be. It's a struggle every day with the few dollars that we do have.

 

With regard to the working poor, we have had discussions within the department to see, are there programs, are there things we could be very creative in developing within the department for the working poor? I think that we have recognized that and the government has recognized that by providing the Affordable Living Tax Credit because that credit does not just go towards individuals on income assistance, that goes to individuals right up to an income of $34,000, that they can access some dollars from that.

 

Also, increasing the Child Tax Benefit by 22 per cent is another step towards supporting the working poor in the Province of Nova Scotia.

 

I know there are other things that need to be done and we're working towards that. Some of the other aspects to assist are the Pharmacare Program that we have in the province and also we support individuals who want to pursue their education. Lots of times we don't hear a lot about that, but we do support individuals who want to go to community college or to university.

 

There are many things that we are working towards to break that cycle. I think the key to breaking the cycle though is not government working on their own, as I mentioned before, I think it's absolutely critical that we work in partnership with people in the community, with people who are traditionally in advocacy groups, who are coming to the table. For example, the increase in the amount of monies that you are able to bring in and not lose that 30 per cent - now there is that $150, that step towards encouraging people to find employment and to learn those skills by getting a part-time job, so they're not discouraged by the fact that you would take most of their income back.

 

I heard that loud and clear from poverty advocacy groups that I've met with, and individuals. That's one of the important things for me that I know it is a little different way of doing things. As a minister, my best days, believe it or not, are when I'm out in the community and I go to a men's intervention centre, when I go to a women's centre, or if I go to a transition house - emotionally it's difficult because you know most times every one of those individuals I want to take home with me and look after, so it's hard to leave.

 

I think what's very rewarding for me and for those individuals is to have somebody who is there listening. Also for them, to recognize that you're not just listening, you are taking in what they are saying and you're turning that into an action - for example, that $150. That I heard loud and clear and we changed that.

 

Once again, then you have that balance between the working poor, so I totally recognize that and I can assure you that that is one area that we have been focusing on also within the Department of Community Services - how we can support individuals.

 

One of the things that concerns me is the fact that you could have a couple who are working and one person gets ill and, if they haven't available to them some type of short-term or long-term disability plan, very quickly their finances can go off track and suddenly they are owing on their mortgage, they are three months behind. Those are the kinds of things where we need to really have a discussion - is there a solution there? Can we look at how can we support them? Is there some type of short-term loan that might be available to them? I don't know, there are all sorts of things. I think some provinces and other jurisdictions have done those types of things, sort of like the micro-loans. Is there something we can do to get them over the hump?

 

If we don't step in and support individuals at the time their need is the highest, what will happen is it's a spiralling effect downwards and eventually they will need to come to the system for support and, when they come to the system for support, it's not just support economically, it's also their health. So then you have people in a situation where they have health issues, so at the end of the day it's going to cost our government more money.

 

I think the biggest challenge for all of government is to change from being reactive to proactive, and it's really difficult to do that because individuals, people, want change but I'm learning that they don't want to accept to be part of what needs to take place to be that change.

 

Some real hard decisions have to be made. I know my staff heard this a million times, so they don't have to listen right now. I always give the story about the hamster going around in the little wheel and being so exhausted and so tired out, but yet does not know how to jump off that wheel to start on a new path - and I relate what we're doing as that.

 

Everybody is so used to this is the way it's always been, we keep going around that wheel and we try every once in awhile to jump off. But jumping off is the difficult part; once you land on your feet and have a plan to go forward, that's much better. It's the jumping off. I relate that analogy to what we're doing - making some very difficult decisions in order to jump off so we can have more funds in order to reinvest in people.

 

That's the same as if you have your own personal finances - I mean, if you owe every credit card going, at some point you realize I just can't afford to pay that interest anymore. To pay one card off with another card is not the way to do it. You have to sit together as a family and say, okay, what are the things I can live without for the next several years in order to have some extra income to put on that debt? Once you put that on that debt, then that frees up those dollars to put on more debt, and you keep doing that and eventually that debt is paid off and then you have the finances to invest in your family and do those things you've always wanted to do. And that's what we're doing as a department and that's what we're doing as a government.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: I sort of feel the same way, and I don't know - sometimes it's an issue of straight funding and resources that programs could obviously benefit from, but other times I think it's the mechanism.

 

You talked about some of the initiatives, and for me I certainly see the idea of a tax credit envelop as valuable. I don't see that as much with the individuals who use the Community Services' programs - the reason being, a tax break is great in April when you're filing your income taxes but I'm sure if you ask most families if they're going to get a tax credit, they'd take it in January when the furnace is empty or the fridge is bare. I do see it as being helpful but, I think, like you say we have to get creative and figure out ways to inject that money more directly into the families as opposed to the tax credits.

 

You mentioned education and training, and I wanted to ask if you have any information on the Career Seek program. I know that there isn't a whole lot of conversation or interest or uptake with that program, certainly in my area I haven't heard of a whole lot of people who are interested in or who have actively accessed the funds from Career Seek and using those opportunities to go to university - do you have any information specifically on numbers or what's budgeted and what kind of use is being applied to those Career Seek funds and those education retraining funds?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: To the minister - you have eight minutes remaining in this first hour.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you very much for your question. I first want to clarify for you that, when you talked about the tax credit, it's actually not on an annual basis. The Affordable Living Tax Credit and the Poverty Reduction Tax Credit comes out four times a year, at the same time as the GST funding cheques come out to individuals. They receive that four times a year. Also, the Child Tax Benefit is monthly. It is not on an annual basis, just to clarify that.

 

With respect to Career Seek, I guess you're looking in terms of the people we support to go to university, that program? We do have people who are utilizing both that and the program for community college. I know, talking to individuals, just how valuable that is for them to be able to have that support to go forth with their education. You can imagine what a difference it makes in a person's life in order to be able to have that opportunity that they would never have.

 

You were asking for particular numbers - how many are accessing the program?

 

MR. MACLELLAN: Can I jump in there, and I'll clarify.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Yes.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: I do appreciate that clarification I truly didn't realize that it was a quarterly basis for those credits, so I appreciate that.

 

My understanding, and I could be wrong, but I thought there was a specific sort of number earmarked for Career Seek - there's an allocation of money that would support, say, I don't know if it would be a hundred seats or a hundred sponsors for education, for university or PSE. Is there any kind of statistics to say that is underutilized, or is it maximized, or is it a regional breakdown where it's used maybe in the HRM but not so much in other regions of the province? If that helps.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you so very much. There are two programs: one called Educate to Work, and that would be for the community colleges and we would have 400 participants presently in that; with Career Seek it's for university and we are actually going to get the numbers, so I will provide you with those numbers.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: So is that a capped number of students? That's what I'm trying to get, is there a ceiling for that or. . .

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: The 400 is the maximum number of seats, yes.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: Okay. Just one quick question specific to the income assistance: In the budgetary process and when you're leading up to the numbers, how is it determined the specific allocations for dietary, medical, and transportation costs for those on income assistance - is there a specific formula that determines or no?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: What we presently do is that we do have a policy for each of those areas and then we would price the policy. That's one area too that sometimes can be a little challenging depending on the needs of the individual who is putting in the request. Any of the policies in those areas with special needs or transportation, we're always looking at them to make sure that they're suitable and they support the individual's needs.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: How much time do we have left, Mr. Chairman?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: In this hour, just shy of 5 minutes.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: Okay, 5 minutes. I'll finish off with one more question.

 

We've discussed and I've written to you on the Center for Adults and Progressive Employment, we call it CAPE. It's an amazing program. It's one of the 28 members of the DIRECTIONS council. They have four-day programs, 40 clients, and in Glace Bay it has a tremendous impact - it's pre-vocational, vocational, community interaction, and pre-employment program. A tremendous impact for Glace Bay and for the region because they certainly have reached into the surrounding communities. Can you discuss and explain the funding relationships for the members of DIRECTIONS - is there a funding formula in discussion or are these annual lump sums, sort of one-off and you determine it with each budget year?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I'm very aware of the program and the programs throughout the Province of Nova Scotia. The day programs are absolutely essential, that's why we have focused that in our new monies to provided $500,000 for the day programs. When you look at a day program it has many positives ramifications when a day program is available to an individual and family. It depends on the level of need of the individual going into the program, there are some who have higher needs than others. However what it does do is it creates an atmosphere for the individual to develop confidence, develop knowledge base, makes the individual more employable if an assessment has been done and that individual has been identified as a person who has some opportunities to work in the community.

 

So the day programs are critical, and what they also do for the families is provides some real respite for them, because one of the things that we're discovering is that there is a gap in our system in terms that there's a lot of support for the younger years, and then when an individual gets older and, yes, when they leave school, there's a gap, you know there isn't anything for them, and so we're addressing that issue and that's why we're investing the $500,000 for the first time in many, many years into the day programs, because we believe, too, it will certainly assist in the whole aspect of persons with disabilities in terms of helping them in the community, in opening spots, even in our residential facilities, in our small option homes, because it will encourage more families who will be able to keep their loved one at home.

 

Many times there are many families who do want to do that, they just don't have the resources and support to do it because they're at that age where we don't have anything for them, so they have to be at home. So if they have a day program it can make quite a difference. DIRECTIONS, I'm very aware of DIRECTIONS and the fabulous work that they do. I actually will be having a meeting with them in the very short term that has been set up. I've been talking to the executive director of DIRECTIONS and we're working with them on a formula on how can we better serve them as a wonderful service provider to that sector in the Province of Nova Scotia.

 

So the relationship, I'm very pleased to say that it's good and we're working on how we can go forward together as a team and how can we best provide the resources that they need, and how best they can utilize their resources too. One thing, when you analyze the day programs in Nova Scotia and you look at there are quite a few different organizations that offer day programs, some of them have similar struggles, more in the urban areas maybe in terms of transportation. Just in the urban area here, it's costing the day programs up to $2 million a year. So there have to be ways that if we sit at a table together that we can start looking at how can we do a better job, how we can be more effective and efficient and maybe share some resources.

 

So that's what we've done. We've started those discussions with DIRECTIONS and with similar organizations. Certainly, as I said, that's one area that we know is important and that's why we've invested another $500,000.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: I thank the minister and note that the first hour of questioning has now expired. We will now move to the questions from the Progressive Conservative caucus.

 

Mr. Porter.

 

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to have a few minutes this morning to ask the minister a few questions. I want to start with staffing and my local area staffing, knowing these folks are all more than overworked, that the client ratios are high - and we'll get to that more in a minute.

 

But I don't necessarily get to deal with the caseworkers as much anymore. When I was first elected that was sort of the method, but now we're on to the supervisors to help look after issues - and I just want it noted that I have been fortunate to have some very, very good people by way of supervisors in my area helping to look after the issues that are presented and to see things get through and, most often, generally resolved. So I think it's important to note the good staff that I have locally in the Valley and I know that there's a bit of, I think it's sort of a crossover, they're either in the Windsor and/or in Kentville. I know that I can always get them anyway, but I had a couple of good folks there.

 

Just on that, I guess I'll go right to the next one, what is the ratio - do you have that number of Community Services' clients per caseworker in your department, in my area specifically is what I'm looking for?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: First, I would like to say thank you very much for complimenting the staff. Earlier on this morning I had mentioned about the fact that I certainly very quickly saw as a new Minister of Community Services the dedication that staff have in Community Services and the difficult job that they have because of the system, in the system that we are now looking at making some major changes.

 

With respect to your client and casework ratio, there is not a specific formula. It's very important for us as a department to look at every community where we have our offices and our client base. What we do is we look at it on an individual basis and look at what those needs are and that's how we formulate how many caseworkers per client that we would need. It depends on the programs that are offered in those communities and where the strongest needs are, and then we will respond to that by providing the appropriate resources.

 

MR. PORTER: I guess then maybe I can refine it a little more - any idea how many clients I have in my area?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: If you could provide us with what particular program you're talking about, because it depends on which program, how many clients.

 

MR. PORTER: I wasn't looking to be that specific. I was just looking at the number of clients in general, if that helps, who are involved with the Department of Community Services. I think there are a lot; the number is high. I know it's busy there. I know the calls that I get, I know that our amounts, a number of people who are involved with Community Services has to be fairly high. I'm just kind of curious as to what that number is, and it doesn't really matter to me which program it is, I guess. I was just kind of curious where we are.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: The reason that I had requested the program is because it does vary, like if you're talking about child welfare versus income assistance. For example, under income assistance, the number of households that we would be serving in your particular area would be 28,500 (Interruption) Oh, this is over the province. We actually don't have a regional breakdown, so we can get you those figures.

 

MR. PORTER: Thank you, and that number you gave was just about the entire population of where I represent, including all of the children in every household. You worried me there for half a second, but I understand what you're saying. That's fine, thank you.

 

I guess I just want to stress that I am aware that we have fairly high numbers. I was just kind of curious as to how they might - if you don't have the number maybe you can't answer - compare in other areas of certain populations in a rural area. I'm close to Halifax, but I'm not in the city - I'm 45 minutes, an hour, away. I was looking just to see how we fit in comparison to the rest of the province - how are we? Can you speak to that at all in general? Are we similar, are we higher, are we lower - do you know?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: What I'm hearing you're asking would be an environmental scan and that is information that we could get and let you know. We would know what the client base is, so we would just have to add up those columns and provide you with that. We can do a comparison across the province and provide you with that information.

 

MR. PORTER: That would be good if I could get that at some point. No rush, but if I could get that it would be good to have and that would help me actually in a number of ways.

 

I want to move on. I don't plan to take a lot of time; I know that others want to speak as well. I want to talk about grants and I'm going to give you an example of where I'm going. If somebody wants a grant for health and safety issues to do home repair and there's a whole list and you would call Housing and you would talk to someone in the local office, it all writes out good, it all looks good, it all sounds good. It's sort of a strange thing, really. I have a lady who - and I want to be specific to one file - has a lot of bats in her attic,

lots of bats in her attic. They've probably been there about 25 years, we figure, maybe longer.

 

You can just imagine how this whole thing is in the attic - it has actually been sealed off. She got a grant and had a new furnace put in her home, a new heating system put in her home; that was all well and good. Conserve Nova Scotia contacts her and says we want to offer you a grant to insulate your home. That's great, she's more than happy because it's needed, but the only problem is they get to the attic, they're doing their assessment and what do they find? They find the bats and all of those good things that have built up over a minimum 25 years - probably a whole lot longer than that - and it's a mess, there is feces, all of these things.

 

There's obviously a cleanup required and it has to be done professionally. It's a health and safety issue. I don't know how you would ever deny it's a health and safety issue, because it is. It certainly appears that way, yet she's been denied funding to help clean up the attic so that she can take advantage - can you speak to why this would be? It does say right in those grants and it doesn't matter - I don't have it in front of me, and I should, minister - there's $6,000, there's $16,000, there are a variety of ones that fit, if you will.

 

It seems rather simple, she already qualified for two others, I can't understand how she can't qualify to get the attic cleaned out - and it's somewhere around $7,000, $8,000, $10,000 estimated to do this job. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that and how she could not qualify.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: One thing I have learned very quickly is that every issue is usually quite complex. The situation for each case has a lot of information, more so than what seems to be on the surface. I know the member wasn't here earlier, but I spoke earlier about a new position that we do have in the department, a seconded position, who is a navigator and that's Randy Acker.

 

We created that position because I saw very quickly as the new minister that because of the fact that cases can be complicated, sometimes people become extremely frustrated and don't know why perhaps they've been denied; we're talking also about the fact that we're working with human beings and sometimes mistakes are made. So I think it's very important for a department the size of Community Services and the thousands and thousands of people we serve in this province that there is a resource within the department, that when somebody feels that they've hit the end of the road and can't go any further, that we could do a review of their situation and to be able to gather more information and find out.

 

The gentleman's name in the department is Randy Acker, and I encourage you to pick up the phone or e-mail Randy at any time when you have a case as you're speaking of, that on the surface seems that it's not logical. Sometimes what I have discovered is when you find the additional information there is really truly a key to the answer why they weren't able to do it or wasn't part of the grant program.

 

Sometimes what it does it identifies, to me as the Minister of Community Services, that perhaps it doesn't make sense and we should be looking at that particular policy because we're striving to work towards a system that is a wraparound system that helps people and takes into consideration their individual needs, not a system need. What I would encourage you to do is to contact Randy, and what he does is he goes back - he's like a little bit of an investigator - and he retraces all the steps to the point that the answer would have been given to this particular lady, to find out whether everything was done appropriately, whether all the information was provided.

 

Sometimes we're not as good as we should be in terms of our communications to the people we are providing services to, so we're striving to work very hard on making sure the communication is better and clearer. That's what I would encourage you to do, to contact Randy, and we certainly would have absolutely no issue to review that and to be able to provide the client and yourself with a reasonable answer.

 

MR. PORTER: Thank you minister for that answer. I've done a little better than that, I've got all the detailed information, the paper work, the assessments of what's been done and what's been offered and I've sent it to you as the minister. But I will, in fact, actually contact Mr. Acker and pass that on to the client as well, because something just doesn't seem to wash there. I can understand and I know all of these things and how you qualify and the income base and where you're located - we do a lot of them, so we're pretty familiar with that and also understand all the things you said with regard to for whatever reason sometimes it just doesn't work out. We also understand and appreciate that fact that yes, errors are made at times or things are miscalculated.

 

Whatever it might be it doesn't matter, it just seemed that this one was a pretty obvious thing since she'd already qualified for A and B but you got to get C done before you can actually go ahead with B. It's all good; it's a good program; we're glad it's still there; and it's good to see people taking advantage of it. Its great efficiencies for the homes and things like that. I think that that's a great program.

 

I want to move on to something near and dear to my heart. I've been working on it now for awhile and it has to do with shelters, homelessness. I know that, surprisingly, people don't believe that that's a real circumstance in certain communities, but it's very real and we're learning more and more every week how real it is in my own area. We've had community meetings, and we have another one scheduled for next week. It's simple to bring the topics forward and everybody just wants you to write a cheque and fix the problem and, believe me, I understand it's never that simple. So the question is not really around that. I think that people also understand that in general too. There is a recognition, though, that the problem does exist and, again, more than we might want to believe.

 

In years past it wasn't as big an issue. I remember a number of years ago when the Salvation Army was present they played a number of roles, not only a pastoral role but they would take people in at nights, they would make sure there was a meal and generally people we're passing through and they'd move on. As a bit of a history buff, I remember reading books from around this province that would tell you that the police would open jail cells in days gone by and people would spend a night in there to be out of the cold, and maybe a place to lie down. If you had real good night then maybe you'd get a little something to eat to go along with it before you moved on. It's incredible that we still have, through time, something like this that carries on. A lot hasn't changed in some ways, strangely enough.

 

We like to think that it has. We like to think that we are a well-educated population moving forward, but there are still people affected, and the numbers are surprising. You know we thought one or two - it's considerably higher than that, considerably higher. People in our own communities were quite shocked. When they saw the posters for meeting I got phone calls from people who said, I don't know of any of this, it can't be that many. These people were actually quite astonished at how many people there were running around sleeping under bridges or in the woods. Not just homeless people either, there are other issues that go along with that, people who are hungry. Times are tough. We realize that, lots of people not working, there are people who are on the system, Community Services, that your department does support.

 

We've always heard, and we will always hear, it's never enough. The cheque that they get at the end of the month won't even pay the rent, let alone buy them food and clothing and provide for extra shelter, things that they require. I realize that there was raise and I'm sure you spoke to that already, that you were talking about in providing a few more dollars. It's all good - $1, $10, $100, it's all good as long as it's more, people will tell you that.

 

My question is, really, is there anything in your department or anything being proposed by way of these types of supports for shelters in communities that are looking to, are communities looking to figure out - and we have a facility, we have something called Harvest House there and some of you may be familiar with that, it exists in Moncton and this is an extension of that, and we're working with them as an organization that we've brought together ourselves in our communities, they've got a facility, they've got some people, and we've got other volunteers, but two things, minister: Are there any rules around this type of thing by way of assurances through the province or regulations that exist and say, Chuck, that's great you want to have a shelter in your area but you need to make sure that you follow all of these regulations before you can set that up; and, number two, to go along with that, minister, are there any financial supports that help you get there?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Just before I move to the minister, I'll note that we're actually two hours into the process today. It's not unusual in this committee to have a five-minute break at this point, but it's at the minister's discretion. If you would like a break, we could take a five-minute break at the moment or if you would like to answer this question and then have a break, or just go right on - do you have an option?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to answer this question and, then if we could have a break, I would appreciate that.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: That would be just fine.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you for the question, because I know that homelessness is a huge issue and a very challenging issue. It's an issue that, once again, comes from every sector of our community, that we need to be working together on and that's why, as I mentioned earlier, when I came in and had the honour to be the Minister of Community Services, I felt that one way that you build your strength is to bring others to the table, the people who have experienced the issue that you're focusing on. So that's what I've done, I've brought a group of individuals presently together. It's called the Community Action on Homelessness.

 

One of the areas we are focusing on is some initiatives that we would be able to model in the urban area and then, hopefully, eventually roll it out within the rural communities. We do have to start somewhere and we have to have a strategy that, as you said, there is a great need financially for shelters, but not only supporting shelters like Out of the Cold, which we did support in the city this past winter, there has to be a long-term strategy put in place and result-based actions. Sometimes people use the word and they say "strategy" and then it's a report that goes on top of a filing cabinet, but the appropriate type of strategy is called result-based strategy because it's result-based in the format that you give timelines and you give, within your strategies you have your goals that you want to reach and you work together to reach those goals. So you do have a tracking system with that type of strategy.

 

So for the first time in the province you have advocacy groups that have been on the other side with the pickets and, you know, asking government to pay attention to this need, and now they're sitting at the table with us, and part of the solution is to bring community members together and those who have a great deal of experience in working with homelessness along with the businesses and the corporate level. So that's one area that is just in its infancy that we're looking at, and we have some plans in place and we will be able to, in the next week or so there will be some very good announcements in the province surrounding that.

 

We also have recognized the significance of homelessness and the whole issue of housing in the province that we have. My colleague, Gary Burrell, is an assistant to me, who will be focusing on that, and actually our present chairman assisted in the department in looking at the housing issue. And with regard to homelessness, it's one of those areas, as I said, it starts from the grassroots level and we have communities that do come together. They see a need in the community and we are very blessed in the Province of Nova Scotia that we have so many people who are caring and come forth and work together to try to help in terms of issues that we face, and especially in the area of homelessness. This is throughout the entire province and it's an area that I know, as minister, when I go to the federal-provincial-territorial meetings, it comes up over and over again.

 

One of the things that we have been trying to do, and if you have any ability - and I would invite everybody from every political Party to do this on a provincial level - is to put pressure on our federal government to come to the table with a housing strategy. I think that's one of the biggest links that is missing in our chain to success with respect to homelessness. We can't do it on our own. The municipalities can't; the province can't; the community can't. The one major partner we don't have to the table right now is our federal government, and it's critical that when we talk about homelessness it crosses many sectors, many genders - the housing issue does also.

 

Whether you're representing the Status of Women that issue comes to the table; whether you're representing the senior population that issue comes to the table; and when you're representing youth that issue comes to the table. We need to come together in a collaborative manner and put that message out, and put that pressure out in order to make a difference in homelessness.

 

We do understand in the rural components that there are issues, too, it's not just in the urban areas, so part of our action to go forward is to be looking at a provincial strategy, a strategy does not exist at this time. I think one of the, and rightly so, when the pressures are on, when there's a need in the community, people do want the provincial government to step in and help with that need. There's a balance though, too, between how do we participate in that need to make sure that it just does not continue the circle of homelessness because there's no strategy surrounding it.

 

I think that's what is very critical, that in order to go forward we need a strategy. We've made a commitment to work on a strategy and to develop a framework and a guide and a policy development that will look at a five- to ten- year strategy. One of the things that we also see that we have to take into account is the demographics. Once again, I think that it is to develop a strategy and to recognize as a government that each community is different and the needs within their community can be quite different, and how do we balance that between a policy that's equitable across the province, but yet flexible enough that we are able to provide the resources and support for a particular community.

 

I am pleased with the fact that we are working very hard to initiate a provincial housing strategy and we will certainly, most certainly, be looking at all communities within Nova Scotia. And if there are initiatives that we can implement and use them as models, if you have any suggestions whatsoever, any of your colleagues, we invite those suggestions to come forth because, as I said, this isn't something we're going to resolve on our own.

 

The fact is we have to work with a variety of stakeholders and I'm really pleased too with the fact that we are working very closely with the shelter providers. We have a lot of communications and relationships, and I have gone out and visited the homeless shelters and talked to the individuals there to get an impression and a feeling of where the gaps are in this system that have made them end up in a homeless situation. I think that's critical, you just cannot make those types of decisions on how to improve things from an office - you need to be able to go into the community.

 

As emotional as they are, you have to go and do that and talk to those individuals who have had an unfortunate situation, to show them that you do care and you are listening, and that you invite them, too, to provide information. One of the things that we do know is - and that's what really excites me about bringing together the Community Action on Homelessness - the fact that we're looking at once again the same as providing the services within Community Services, that it's a wraparound.

 

You just cannot provide somebody a place to live and say, there you go, now everything is great. It's a continuum of a service. It's like I've talked about with income service - if we're going to get people off the system, we have to look at a continuum of service over the long term. What are their individual needs? So therefore, what we'll be looking at is if we have a shelter or if we have a home for an individual, what does that individual need in order to make sure that they are supported in their community? You just do not direct them and say, okay, there's this resource, there's that resource. You work with them and you stay with them, and when they run into a barrier or a challenge you work through that barrier or challenge with them. I think that will be a main component of our strategy.

 

Also, the other aspect is within IA itself. We always have our housing authority and supported housing outreach teams that work with those individuals. I think that we are going to see some very good successes as we go forward with the homelessness issue.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, minister. We will take a short break, no more than five minutes, so I would ask members of the committee to reconvene in five minutes time for the continuation.

 

[11:51 a.m. The committee recessed.]

 

[12:07 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I'd like to call the meeting of the Subcommittee on Supply back to order. As you'll probably notice, the voice of the chairman has changed yet again, so it's Michele Raymond. I'm back, and thank you very much.

There is 29 minutes remaining in the time for the Progressive Conservative Party.

 

The honourable member for Victoria-The Lakes.

 

MR. KEITH BAIN: Madam Chairman, I just have a couple of questions I'd like to ask. I'll share my time with the honourable member for Dartmouth North, and the member for Hants West will have further questions for the minister in our second hour.

 

As I mentioned, I do have a couple of questions and the first one is concerning services to persons with disabilities. The particular question that I'm concerned about is Handi-Trans - transportation for people who live in the rural areas, especially in Cape Breton. I know that there are two or three cases that I've gotten in my office where they're outside the boundary of the Handi-Trans from CBRM. I guess my question: Is there any consultation or conversation going on with the municipalities to extend that service to persons with disabilities who live in the outlying rural areas?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I know exactly what your concern is, and it is a concern that has broader ramifications. I come from a rural community myself and I know that this is an issue, and we need to come together on from all levels, from municipal to provincial and federal.

 

Once again, I would invite my colleagues and the members of the Opposition to come to the table and work with us to impress on a federal level that we definitely need to have a strategy with respect to transportation.

 

Our population base is getting older. We have 1,000 people a month turning 65 in the Province of Nova Scotia. Most likely all of us are going to have a disability of some sort as we, ourselves, age, or within our lives; we never know from one day to another. The fact is that the transportation - can you just imagine when you have a disability and you need to get somewhere and that's not accessible?

 

We definitely understand and recognize that and are working on how we can improve what we have today. Can we be sharing resources in that area? As I mentioned earlier, I know within just the urban area of Halifax itself, the cost for day-program participants in transportation is like $2 million, but it's still not working - that would be those individual day programs, what their costs would add up to.

 

I think that there needs to be a sharing of resources in that area, in the discussion. I know that we, as a government, understand transportation is a very big issue. We need to bring all levels to the table but, believe me, it's an issue we are concerned about. If you have any particular individual cases that you are concerned about, I certainly encourage you to bring them to my attention. Also, as I mentioned earlier, Randy Acker is a resource for you, and I think there may be some strategies in the meantime. It takes a long time to put together a comprehensive overall strategy.

 

It would be my hope, through open dialogue and discussions and recommendations even from yourself and others, to see if there are some immediate avenues where we could be able to reduce the barriers and the challenges that we're facing in terms of transportation, especially to those persons with disabilities.

 

MR. BAIN: Thank you for that, minister. I bring it up because the rural residents deserve as equal access as anybody who might live in metro. My main reason for bringing it up was I have been dealing with a case where the individual, who is confined to a wheelchair, was less than a kilometre outside the boundary that had been set - realizing full well that the municipalities have to set a boundary because of the costs and everything that occur, but the fact that this individual, that close to a boundary, will be denied access to Handi-Trans is not equal access, I don't think. I agree, it's something that we all, as government, regardless of political stripe, should work on together to improve.

 

My next question - and again, it's going to relate to Cape Breton - it's only for my own clarification. The Cape Breton Island Housing Authority looks after the housing needs of most of Cape Breton. Sometimes homes come up that are available that are listed with Cobequid Housing. My question is - it creates a little bit of confusion for those seeking housing, you have to find out the information and steer the people in the right direction - the homes that are listed through Cobequid Housing, are they the former rural and native housing homes? Why is there a discrepancy? If it's Cape Breton Island Housing Authority, why don't they have all the homes? Now we have a few scattered that belong to Cobequid. I'm just trying to get that for my own information.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: In this particular case, those are going to be moved over. We did identify that there is confusion and an issue there, so they are going to be moved over under the housing authority.

 

MR. BAIN: Thank you very much for that - and it certainly will make it a lot easier for everyone involved, because of the confusion that exists.

 

I guess my final question, before I turn it over to the member for Dartmouth North, would be the turnaround time from when a unit become vacant to when it is available. I realize there are - is there, can I say, a maximum time? Sometimes it requires work to be done, but so often you'll see a unit sit vacant for a long period of time, and I'm going to make reference again to units in the North of Smokey area, and one in particular that has been vacant for up to two years. With the demand for housing that is out there, I just want to know, what is the maximum turnaround time before a unit would become available?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: We don't have an actual time frame. We do it as quickly as possible because there's sometimes quite a bit of work that has to be done within any one unit. However, I feel that we can always improve on anything we're doing and that, once again, if you have particular sites that are an issue for you or you are seeing that don't seem to be moving at the pace that you feel is reasonable, I think it's important that you know you have full access to come to myself or to Dan Troke, who is in charge of housing, and question that.

 

It doesn't matter what you are dealing with in life, there are always improvements that can be made, and we have to remember that. So if we're not moving fast, maybe there are particular reasons for that unit, or maybe we are not moving as fast as we could. We can certainly discuss those particular issues with you and improve in the areas that we can improve.

 

MR. BAIN: Again, thank you for that, Madam Minister. It wasn't intended as a criticism. I feel the Sydney office staff is very obliging, and if a concern is brought to their attention they certainly move forward with it, from the director all the way down. I guess I was just trying to get some general idea, because the person who is looking for a unit becomes frustrated if they're told they have to wait, we're in the process of painting, and three weeks to a month later the unit is still not available. I think it's just that the frustration level there is something that should be addressed.

 

With that, Madam Chairman, I'd like to turn the floor over to my colleague from Dartmouth North.

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, member.

 

Yes, Madam Minister?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: What I'd like to respond is please do not feel that any of those would be taken as a criticism by myself or staff. We do know that there are so many things, as you can gather today, that we're responsible for. We strive to do the best we can, but there are times that, with anything, it's good for us to know if we don't have the knowledge.

 

I think what I'm also getting from you is that that's one area where we maybe have to be better in our communications, in our relationship with the individual who has that expectation. When you are waiting for something, you think time seems to go slower, so I think we could probably improve in terms of our communication with that individual, to be able to let them know that, okay, this is where we are at this point, or we may have run into a snag and that's why this unit is still not available.

 

I think that is something that - don't feel that you're criticizing, I think you are just bringing a point forward. We take it seriously, and we'll work to improve on any of those areas. Thank you.

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Dartmouth North.

 

MR. TREVOR ZINCK: Madam Chairman, can you tell me how much time is remaining?

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes. You are using, as I understand it, the remaining time, until 12:40 p.m, belonging to the Progressive Conservatives, and then we'll go directly into your own hour.

 

MR. ZINCK: I'm going to begin with a little preamble and then you can let me know when my time is cut off with the Progressive Conservative time. I want to thank the members of the Progressive Conservative caucus as well for giving me this time and opportunity.

Madam Minister, I first want to apologize for missing your opening. Unfortunately, I had a funeral to attend, and I knew that you had been briefed on that earlier yesterday by me. I know I probably missed some exciting things that you had to say, so I will review Hansard again in the coming days to go over your comments.

 

I want to first start by saying that I've had the opportunity and privilege to represent the community of Dartmouth North for the last five years. It's a community that has the largest concentration of low-income residents in all of HRM in any one area in particular, so the majority of what my office tends to focus on are issues around social justice and community services.

 

I've often been asked by a number of my colleagues in the House why I spend so much time on this, but I know in conversations I've had with you, I can safely say that 95 per cent of my time is spent dealing with the department and the various sections and makeup of the Department of Community Services. So you get well versed, and again, spending five years going over that, you learn a lot, you see a lot. Some of the questions I'll ask today, sadly, are some of the same questions I asked five years ago. However, I'm pleased to see that the department, and, in particular, you and the government, is taking some strides in moving forward with some initiatives. Some of the recent announcements that have been made around the 70/30 clawback were changes that were requested five or six years ago by some all-Party committees. It's nice to see some of those taking place.

 

When we're looking at a budget, we're looking for those little crumbs that we can grab onto that we think might be able to help our communities and individuals whom we represent. The 211 program - we've been discussing this program for the last three years and being pushed - all Parties - by the United Way and Catherine Woodman in particular. It's nice to see the funding in the budget for that. I think that system of navigation is going to be a great asset, not only for Nova Scotians but for departments as well. We're often asked, as MLAs, what we really do. I've often said to my residents, you know, we're like navigators and negotiators. Well, the 211 system is going to alleviate some of that pressure off some of our offices, hopefully. So it's good to see that.

 

Some of the recent announcements, the announcement that you and the Premier made up at Halifax Needham last week, the foster care funding - we know that for 10 to 15 years the per diem rates - and even though they were raised minutely a couple of years ago under the previous government, there was still always that angst and frustration by foster families who were caring for children in care, and particularly children who came to those families with high needs. So again, it's positive to see the government taking those steps.

 

I want to also compliment you. I think that in the short period of time that you've been minister you've made yourself very open, not only to organizations that represent marginalized individuals but to other members of the House of Assembly and also to the public. I've seen your photograph recently in Street Feat magazine and I know Kendall Worth, who is a constituent of mine, was quite pleased that the department - and I know it's frustrating and difficult at times because you're under the realm of Communications Nova Scotia and they're not sure whether or not to allow you to do that, but I think it was a good gesture on your part, and I think it bodes very well for the kind of message that you want to bring to your department.

 

So I want to congratulate you for that and also for coming into a new role a number of years ago. It's a big responsibility not only being a new MLA but becoming a minister and representing a department that is in the top three budgeted items for the province. It can be a daunting task to try to grasp what the real issues are, and I think that I can say today that you've learned well; you speak well to the issues, and I wish you continued success.

 

In keeping with that, I also want to take the opportunity to thank a number of staff members whom I deal with, whom my office would deal with on a continuous basis. I would like to say that probably I have a direct line to either Gottingen Street or the Portland Street offices and, of course, to Housing Services with Mr. Dan Troke as well. There is wonderful staff at Portland Street who don't hesitate to answer my phone calls. I know when they're having a tough week it means usually my office is having a tough week because of the concentration of individuals that we deal with and the complex issues that we deal with, but they do a tremendous job in assisting me and assisting those individuals who are coming to them for help.

 

It's people like supervisor Greg Cromwell - I cannot say enough. The man has spent over 30 years with the department in various areas. He's the head of the Association of Black Social Workers. He has spent time in the Sackville office. We're grateful to have him at Portland Street as head supervisor.

 

Barry Schmidl, the regional director over there, has been great in accommodating any requests or concerns that I have. Supervisors like Mike Caswell, and newly-minted Sheila Lenaghan, who came over from the Gottingen Street office, have made themselves readily available, not just to assist but sometimes to offer up advice. Oftentimes we make a call, we have a particular situation that's very complex, and it's a cry for, what's your advice, how can we work around this, what do we have to do? They've been very accommodating.

 

In particular, I want to name a few caseworkers who I continuously deal with - unfortunately, some I don't have the opportunity to speak with on a number of occasions; maybe that means their caseload is less or I don't have as many clients of theirs - caseworkers like Kim Crowe, fantastic - always willing to listen, always willing to call back, and very helpful to some of the individuals she represents. I hear it from the individuals.

 

I can say that five years ago, when I first came into politics, there was that angst between caseworker and individual, where they felt that they were maybe being taken to task or that things were being held against them - "I don't know why my caseworker doesn't like me." I'd like to think what's happened in five years is that we've bridged that gap now, and caseworkers like Terry Lewis, Gabriel Dewey, Carter Peters - and Nathan Anderson, who just recently came over in the last number of months from Gottingen Street, a really good young man who plays by the rules, who knows the i's have to be dotted and the t's crossed, but who is willing to look at the situation and sit with the individual client and build that relationship - Debbie Wilton, who has been there a long time, and Debbie Murray, Laurie Jacklyn, and Mike Wall, just to name a few.

 

A number of times the caseworkers in the Portland Street office become overwhelmed with the number of cases, and I believe their caseload is probably close to 150 individuals at any one time. That being said, I know they're under a number of stresses and the stories that they hear each day, the frustrations of not seeing government policies change that would allow them to help individuals move on. I would hope that some of these initiatives that have been announced recently in this budget with the government are going to make them feel a little bit more positive about their job.

 

Unfortunately there are a number of individuals whom I represent who don't have access to phones, so 211 might not help them; however, they can come to my office and use my phone to call 211, which is an alternative. However, the intake staff who some weeks are completely overworked and frustrated as well - because we want those applications in there, we want them processed in a timely fashion to assist that individual who approaches them - have made themselves very accommodating to my office for those individuals who don't have phones. We set up a meeting, we set up a specific time, the individual comes in, and the intake worker calls back to my office. So the intake staff do very well.

 

It's unfortunate that the other day I had to raise a question around the Metropolitan Regional Housing Authority. Hopefully we can see that situation rectified. It's not a lot of money - and I'll touch on that later. I just wanted to bring up the names of a few people whom I constantly talk with as well, and thank them at this point and make you aware, Madam Minister, these folks have definitely played a role in some of the successes I've been able to have with individuals.

 

People like Jack Lewis, Debra Way, and Pat Lawrence - always there to offer up advice, talk to me about wait lists, potential openings, and again, some real complex situations - what can we do with this individual? What potential timelines are we looking at? Those three individuals have been wonderful, and again, the folks who process the housing grant applications as well.

 

You have a staff member sitting in your back row there, Mr. Dan Troke, who has been fantastic - 424-8402. I think he has a direct connection to my office. (Interruption) And Mr. MacLellan, in the back row - I've told him about Mr. Troke. I've had a wonderful opportunity with the $128 million that came down through the federal funding and social transfer for housing to have the folks at Housing Services see fit to put a little over $1 million into one of my co-op situations that was in a lot of trouble, up in Highfield Park. I had the opportunity yesterday to make mention to Mr. Troke that I get a lot of credit, when I'm walking through my community or visiting the shops, from individuals who live there. It's been a long time, probably close to 20 years, since they've seen any new money.

 

When I've approached the department in the past about the struggles that they had, it was kind of like a hands-tied situation. We've been able to successfully go in there and renovate; a lot of the issues around energy have been answered; and the overall feel of that particular community now - I know down the road we would like to see some sort of ownership with the co-ops, but there is ownership there, the sense of pride is there now in the newly renovated units. I want to thank the department for that, and in particular Mr. Troke for answering any questions, returning my calls, and just being there for advice on whom I might have to call on a particular situation.

 

George, always good to see you - George Savoury, in the back row - you've been around a long time. I miss you on the front lines, but I know in the past you and I have dealt a lot and you've been able to answer a lot of questions around child welfare for me. Vicki Wood's name was mentioned today. The previous deputy, Judith Ferguson - I had an open line to Judith, which was quite beneficial. Your staff, your secretaries, when I call down, who do I have to talk to? Lynda Tabbiner - they're wonderful. I pick up the phone - "Trevor, what do you need now?" But it's done in a good way.

 

You mentioned Randy Acker to some earlier questions, and I know Randy has just come on recently, but I have tasked him with a number of issues. We've vetted him through, and fortunately we've been able to help some people along.

 

I want to end by saying that it's very pleasing to see the deputy minister here today. I know he's just the acting deputy minister, but Mr. David Ryan in the past has answered many questions around the ESIA or Housing Services. He was in on the original conversations I would have had with Mr. Troke with regard to the Highfield situation and other quite pressing situations. They were actually able to meet with constituents and rectify any questions that they might have. They always made themselves available.

 

Overall, I'm pleased to see the deputy minister here. I know in the past number of years I've usually opened my comments with saying how disappointed I was that the deputy wasn't here for these proceedings, considering all the deputies for the other departments always saw fit to sit in on the budget, so I'm very, very pleased to see the deputy here.

 

I'm going to get into some questions, so how much time do I have with the Progressive Conservatives?

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Six minutes.

 

MR. ZINCK: Okay, here I thought I was being long-winded. I'll end with my preamble and maybe I'll let you respond and then I'll go into some questions.

 

Overall, it's never enough. I can sit here and tell you that I think that people are still struggling, Madam Minister, there are a lot of things that we need to do. The issue of homelessness was brought up; it's a very complex issue. I've talked in the past about a holistic approach with individuals who come to the department the first time for help - letting them know what they're entitled to, getting them moved beyond the point where they come to our offices for help. The "office of last resort" is what we used to call ourselves, and I know you take great pride in the hopes we can move beyond that.

 

The member for Glace Bay brought up the Career Seek program. I know there was a lot of controversy around there, and I know the previous minister once mentioned to me that approximately 1 per cent of the individuals who rely on ESIA would qualify for that program. At that time I said to her, let's go get them. Let's move these people beyond the point of - if it's only 1 per cent, it's still making an impact in an individual's life.

 

We're not quite there. I've got a lot of questions. I think this is going to be a really good exercise this year. I'm quite pleased to see the government making some strides and, in particular, I think it is because you've had a voice in and around the Executive Council, and so have your caucus members.

 

With that, I'll let you respond and then I'll get into some questions in my second hour.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Madam Chairman, there are two very important words that I would like to express to the member, and the two words are "thank you." I certainly appreciate your very kind words toward me, toward the staff, my colleagues, and the government.

 

I am extremely honoured to be the Minister of Community Services. I can remember that when I was offered this opportunity - I'll be honest - I was scared to death and thinking, oh my. Then I thought, you know, if I have been blessed with the honour to be able to make a difference in people's lives, I should have no fear. I must say that I feel very strongly the same way toward you in your dedication over the years to people who have less. You wear your heart on your sleeve and you've worked so hard to make a difference, and people recognize that in your constituency and look up to you for that help.

 

As we know, change takes time. I'm extraordinarily pleased with where we are within a two-year period. My successes are successes for the Province of Nova Scotia and for every member of the House of Assembly, no matter their political stripe. My successes in part also go to - as you have recognized here today - my colleagues sitting around the caucus table who have a passion and are very emotional about the needs of people in Nova Scotia, and who keep that on the front lines each and every time we have a meeting. I want to say thank you to those members who are here today and to all my colleagues, because I would not be able to do it on my own and drive that agenda.

 

Also, as I've mentioned many times, I learned very quickly that the staff within the Department of Community Services is absolutely incredible - although they've had to deal with the difficulty that that perception is not there from the public, unfortunately. That is one area that I also am striving to change - how people view the staff in the Department of Community Services, because they've been caught up in that big old system too. It's amazing how that system has its own life and has a lot of push-back as we try to go forward with change. I think that the positive change that we are creating and that we want to do comes with the collaboration of all political Parties - I really truly believe that community services is one of those areas where you put the political swords down because we're working together for the common good of individuals.

 

Each and every one of us who have the wonderful opportunity to be placed on this Earth is placed on this Earth for a reason, and some individuals do not have the same fortune. Those who do and have the ability to help others need to come forward and work together, instead of fragmenting each other by fighting about it, because that, at the end of the day, doesn't help the people who we want to help. One of the things that I do every morning when I get up and when I go to bed at night is I thank the good Lord that I have been blessed to be put in this position. I look at the fact that we only live one life, and it is really not that long of a time period, if you look at the full spectrum of this planet and this Earth.

 

The poor staff - I'm sure I'm driving them crazy. They call me the Project Minister. Every day it's like, oh, we could do that, let's go to this, let's do this. It's like you could see, boy, the workload that I put on them. My goodness, I'm e-mailing last night at midnight and this guy is e-mailing me back. I said to him today, look, just because I'm e-mailing you at 12:00 or 1:00 in the morning, you don't have to answer me at that time. That just shows you the commitment of the staff. I am really pleased to date that I'm seeing such co-operation from the members in the Opposition. That really goes a long way. I think that people are tired of seeing the battles back and forth. It's really refreshing, and I think together we certainly will make a difference.

 

As I mentioned to the member for Victoria-The Lakes, the fact is that when you bring a point to us or an issue, it's not criticism. What it is is knowledge, and the department, the government, myself as a minister - I can't make a change or make a difference if I don't have the knowledge. I think that because I come from a very strong communication background, I understand that perception is one thing, and perception most of the time is not correct. The reality is what we have to work on and that means for us to have an open line of communication between our government, myself, and Opposition members in order to go forward to try to make these changes.

 

We've done an incredible amount in a two-year period, but it's not just from us. It's from you bringing those points up in the House and recognizing there is an issue. You live and breathe it every day with your constituents. You see it, and you've seen it a lot longer than I have, so you know. It's not always that we can provide the right answers. Sometimes it's simply listening to individuals and responding - that's what they want - not pretending you're listening, but responding to them. Sometimes you can take situations where people are totally irate with you, but you offer them your perspective and then say, what would you do in that situation, or can you help me?

 

That comes back to a conversation I had earlier about the restorative approaches. If the member has the opportunity to attend that conference in June, I would really encourage you to attend. If you need any more information, we do have that in the department. I think that we will make huge strides if not only my colleagues in our government have an understanding and a support of restorative approaches, if the members opposite have an understanding of that, we will be much stronger going forward as a team in trying to face the battle of poverty, face the issues with persons with disabilities. They're huge issues. You cannot change them overnight, but you can't have knee-jerk reactions either. That gets you in trouble if the pressures are on to resolve something immediately, but that doesn't work. You need to have a strategy. You need to be evaluating everything you do, and if you try something and it doesn't work, well, then you try something else until it does work. Your failure shouldn't be seen as a failure; it should be seen as the fact of, well, that just didn't work this time, but we're not going to give up. We're going to try another route to resolve this issue and work it out.

 

We won't always have the right answers, and that's why if you're going to be strong, you have to have strong people around you and you have to be open to listen to people's points. Even if you don't agree with them, you have to be open to listen. Sometimes people are able to make their point very validly to you and you should rethink it. So I just want to say that I'm so pleased that to date I've had the opportunity to meet you and work with you to see what your passion is and to thank you very much for that passion.

 

MR. ZINCK: Well, thank you, Madam Minister, for your kind words. It is a passion and it's an obligation on behalf of the residents I represent to deal with situations in that way. They really need to know that we are doing the work, that we are concerned, that we are actually listening. It is a collaborative effort, like you stated. I believe a mindset change is what we need. We cannot simply keep pushing people down and dangling a little bit of the carrot, because it costs us. It costs us in education, it costs us in justice, it costs us in health, and I think a lot of the health care organizations have talked about poverty and the effects on the health care budgets. So it's nice to hear you talk about the collaborative effort.

 

Thinking outside the box is difficult when you have individuals who have been in this system for so long, who haven't seen the strides taken by other governments or the willingness to think outside the box in particular situations, but times have changed. If we don't start addressing it, it will get worse, and like I said, we'll incur costs. Our health care budget is close to 60 per cent of our budgeted items, and a lot of it is from people who can't afford medications or who are affected by poverty. I will get that information on the conference in June. I really look forward to attacking that and its ending.

 

I'm going to get into some questions. I'm going to throw some things at you and see what we come up with. I'm going to start with the announcement that came in the Throne Speech. It was nice to see it in the Throne Speech. In particular, I know you were pleased by it, and as of July 1^st a number of individuals receiving income assistance will, at least in my last five years, receive the largest incremental increase in that time. The $4.2 million, which will equate to $15, approximately, for 31,000 recipients, is going to be a welcomed amount. I know in previous years we've indexed it accordingly anywhere from $4 to $6. Last year your government did some manoeuvring with some tax credits and whatnot and it worked out to be a little bit more than that. It was a different approach. Some folks still didn't understand it because they didn't see it right then and there on their monthly cheques, but every three months they've seen that tax credit come in. We'll get into that and some of the issues around those tax credits later, but it's nice to see the government take that step.

 

That being said, I have fought this battle for the last five years and I have to again this year. Hopefully you can add some clarification as to where your government stands on it. The second component of income assistance is shelter allowance, and I've expressed my frustrations with the lack of uptake by the past government, and obviously now, currently your department, in having that raised. The last increase came in 2006 under the Progressive Conservative Government. Madam Minister, I can tell you today that with the market values that are put on rental units - and again, it's something I deal with every day, because 60 or 70 per cent of my community is made up of multi-unit dwellings. It is in some cases a very transient community. However, when somebody is relying on income assistance and the shelter allowances, it just doesn't add up.

 

What I'm finding, I mean, I'm going to make a bold statement here - it's not a magic wand or approach, it's just my opinion based on what the values of rental units are right now - is that one individual on income assistance, if they were able to adequately afford shelter, would need $600 a month. A single parent with one child would probably need about $700. An individual with two children would need at least $800 to have adequate, safe housing in any one particular part of my community. I know that back in the Fall I asked you a question around the able-bodied individual who has to rely on assistance and the $300 allowance they are allotted not being enough, which puts them in a whole different situation. I'm just wondering.

 

I know in the past previous ministers have stated that if we put up the shelter allowance, landlords would take it. I know I then would attack it by saying, well, we are the legislators, couldn't we look at the possibility of adding something into the Residential Tenancies Act that would prohibit landlords from taking that money? Basically, if I break it down - and then I'll let you respond - I'm going to give you an example of an individual who, if they approached the department today, or let's say on July 1^st - they come in and they're in need of help from the department. They are an individual who may be suffering from mental health issues or an addiction issue. They would be entitled to $535 for their shelter. With the new increase of $15, they would be allotted the $229 for a personal allowance. We're going to throw in a bus pass because they have some medical appointments that they have to attend, so that's another $70. Let's say that they are at the age of 40 to 45 years, so they would qualify for a special diet - let's say a high-fibre, low sodium diet, which would equate to $27 each for those, so an extra $54 a month. That individual would be entitled to $888.

 

Then part of the responsibility for them is to have a home in order for Community Services to help them. So based on my numbers of $600 for an individual - and I'm going to break this down and I'll show you what my frustration is, but more importantly, their frustration. We have $888. If we take out $600 for rent it leaves $288. Out of that $288 they have to take the $70 out for the bus pass, so that leaves them $218. On average, a power bill in Dartmouth North is $50 a month. A lot of the buildings are older, they are not energy efficient, so we'll take $50 off that. That leaves them $168.

 

Let's say they have a basic phone. A basic phone nowadays is about $32, and that leaves them $136. Let's say they are on two medications, so they don't qualify for the co-pay exemption because they don't have three. They have two medications, so they're paying $5 for co-pay, so that's another $10. That's $126 they are left with.

 

Let's say that they want basic cable. I don't know the exact numbers, but let's say it is $30 a month for basic cable. Madam Minister, that leaves them $96 a month, or approximately $28 a week, to eat. What we ask individuals to do is to be happy and healthy, to move beyond the system that they are currently in, and participate in community on $96 a month. Usually the day they get their cheque they are automatically making plans for when they can go to the food bank. That really - what I see and what I've seen in the last five years - is all in part because they are paying so much of their income out to shelter.

 

Rents are going to rise again, and I know we're going to give the $15 on July 1^st, but in May and June rents are going to go up again in my community. On average, a somewhat safe, somewhat affordable one-bedroom unit in my community is generally around $615 to $625. So therein lies the frustration. Maybe you can enlighten me as to what your feelings are on it and what potential direction your government and your department might go in the next number of years?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you for the question. With respect to shelter allowance, we're very much aware of the issues that are there and the difficulties that we face. A few minutes ago you mentioned thinking out of the box, and that's exactly what we're doing as a department and as a government. When I say "thinking out of the box," we have a strategy of looking at the issue of poverty in a more holistic manner, and that means making a variety of different funding resources available to those who have low or modest incomes or who are on income assistance.

 

Rather than just focusing it on the shelter aspect, what this does is it gives the individual more freedom to make decisions of where they want to place those dollars. For example, if you take an individual - I did mention this a little bit earlier, and I don't know if you were here, so I'll repeat it. In the last two years, as a really good comparison, you have someone who is at the lower end of the spectrum in terms of the dollar amounts that they received. New dollars from this government would be in terms of $700 in addition on an annual basis. On the far end of the spectrum, a single mom with two children is receiving over $2,300 - almost $2,400 - more a year. That's an incredible amount of money, and that's when you take not just your $15 increase in income assistance but all the different areas that we have focused on and put new resources there, in terms of your 22 per cent increase in the Child Tax Benefit, your Affordable Living Tax Credit, your Poverty Reduction Credit, and so on and so on.

 

So when you take those and you look at the entire picture, you see an incredible number of increases in just a short period of time. Two years is not very much when you do a comparison to the many years, decades and decades, where some of these areas weren't even touched.

 

The other aspect that I think is important for you to know is that $5.3 million has been added into the budget this year for special needs alone. We recognized those needs, and what that does is that supports us in our strategy that we want to provide wrap-around services to individuals. The key word here is "individual." We don't want it to be a systemic puzzle piece, or cookie-cutter system, that it has been, and that if you don't fit into that puzzle piece, then I'm sorry, we really can't help you here. We want to be able to change the way we do business, that we look at everyone, and rightly so, as an individual, and therefore, if you have a particular need that is quite different from somebody else, we don't say, well, you just don't fit into that so we're not going to provide you with that need.

 

So this is our overall strategy. We're investing the dollars in a variety of areas because it gives us more flexibility in achieving our goals in the strategy. It also gives the individual more flexibility with their dollars than just saying, okay, this goes to the shelter rates alone. Over the last year and in the year coming, we have also invested in this entire area an extra $25 million. I think that those dollars really speak loud and clear of where our commitment is as a government.

 

Another aspect with the shelter, because it is very complicated, is that with all these other strategies we are developing and looking at a housing strategy. That housing strategy will look in many areas of affordable housing in the Province of Nova Scotia. That will be looking at opportunities for co-ops - are there different models in co-ops that we can do? Can we do things differently in the housing aspect? We also need a strategy in order to be able to go forward and put more pressure at the federal level and say, look, we're asking you for a strategy, we have a strategy, and I think we need to have one to come to the table if we're going to be heard more.

 

I encourage everyone in here - I encourage all Parties - we are in a federal election. This is the time to bring up a housing strategy. Every federal-provincial-territorial meeting I go to, whether it was when I represented the Advisory Council on the Status of Women - what was the issue? - housing and transportation. What are the issues when I sit at the table representing the Department of Seniors at a federal-provincial-territorial level? It's housing and transportation. When I go to the meetings with respect to social services, once again, it's housing and transportation. In what area do we have a huge gap in our nation? It's a federal strategy on housing and transportation.

 

Those are two very complicated, huge areas that we have to be addressing with community involvement, but at a government level - municipal, provincial, and federal level. My encouragement right now where we have an election is to ask those hard questions, because why do we not have those in a nation such as Canada? One of the best places to live in the world, and we don't have a transportation or housing strategy?

 

Every person deserves to have the comfort of having their own home. The difference that it means in a person's life, as you know - your home is a place of safety, your home is a place of security, and your home is a place for your family. It is your life. It is your core base of who you are and what you can do for your family and how much pride you take in owning a home or having a home that is affordable for you to live in.

 

I would really encourage - and I know that you understand it, you understand the complexity and the challenges that we face as a province. We can't do this one on our own, and if we are going to make a difference in the future we have to be very loud and clear to whoever is sitting in that federal seat in Ottawa that it is time to ante up on a transportation and housing strategy.

 

MR. ZINCK: Well, there was a whole a lot there. I'm going to get into the housing situation later on. I agree with you. Absolutely, we need a national housing strategy. Our current wait list for housing units is way too long.

 

I guess the real frustration for me is that in 2006 we saw an increase in shelter allowances and we haven't seen one since. For my constituents it's no longer - I understand because I heard this last year, Madam Minister, around different funding mechanisms that your government's trying to bring in, and again, this year we've seen some of those new initiatives. The reality is, though - and what I hear every day and every month is that, based on where I am financially, I can't afford to pay rent. What we've done as governments over the years, based on the amount of income we allot individuals who are in need of help from the department, is we've basically told them where they can live.

 

In Dartmouth you can live in Dartmouth North if you're low income. You can live in the Gaston Road area; you can live in the Lakefront area; you can live in the Lakecrest area or the Churchill or Kennedy Drive areas, and in those areas communities know who lives there. In Halifax we have the Greystone area and we have Bayers Westwood. For years, because of poor planning, we've lumped people in; we realize that now, over the years, as government and as planners. But even in those areas, Madam Minister, people cannot afford to live anymore, based on the rental units. Even some of the dilapidated buildings that people are living in, in my community - when I tell a caseworker that somebody is going to be paying $625 per month for a one bedroom on Pinecrest Drive, they're shocked. The basic allotment is $535, so that money has to come from somewhere, and it comes from some of those other things, like special diet or their bus pass. I can tell you, the number of folks that I deal with - their bus pass gets cut in half. They take $36 and they buy bus tickets and then they use the rest for food or pay their power bill. That's the frustration with that point.

 

We've really got to get a handle on it because right now - I know the coalition against homelessness just had their federal funding slashed, which was disappointing. This year we didn't have a homelessness report card because of that. The member from the Progressive Conservative caucus talked about homelessness. I can guarantee you the numbers have gone up. Yesterday with comments to the Department of Health and Wellness he talked about couch-surfers. We're seeing more and more of that because individuals cannot afford - despite the different mechanisms and funding models that your government is currently putting in place - basic rent.

 

Take the situation of mental health patients coming out of the hospital. One of the biggest complaints that you'll hear from Capital Health is that they cannot find safe, adequate housing. Even though they have a new program, it's still putting those individuals into communities where landlords will keep the rent affordable, but they're troubled communities. If you bring somebody into my community with a mental health issue and an addiction issue, it's unfair to that individual and it's unfair to the community, because there are so many other people preying on individuals who are oppressed. I'll leave it at that, and like I said, as far as the national stuff, I'll get into that around housing later.

 

The next question is something that's a little easier: Community Services overpayments. I'm getting a lot of individuals who are coming to my office now, and every month, for whatever reason - whether it be moving costs or paying someone's damage deposit or helping them out with a power bill at the end of the month - that money is gathered back. Or let's say a food voucher: if an individual approaches the department for a food voucher, that money is then taken off their cheque and their entitlement each month. What I'm finding now is that I have a number of individuals who are saying that overpayment has been there a long time, I thought that was paid off, that should have been paid off. First question, is there a way to have a detailed breakdown of what an individual's overpayment would be? Would that be available to the individual?

 

The second part of the question is, I've recently had a number of individuals turn 65, and when they turn 65, obviously they're no longer under the realm of the department. The day that they turn 65 they get a couple of notices, and one is around the Seniors' Pharmacare Program and the allotment that they have to now pay out for prescription drugs. The second notice that they get comes from the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, and that's one saying, you owe the government money from a previous department and now we are collecting. In particular, I had one recently - a lady turned 65 and we just got her into housing. She's elated. She's on a wide range of medications, but she also got a notice from the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations saying she now owes $27,000 to the government. She would like to know if there is a way to find out the actual breakdown of what that is. Of course, the second question - to her individual case - is, I'm 65 years old, I'll never be able to pay this back. Is there a way for her to exorcise that uncollectable debt?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: To answer your first question, yes, certainly we can provide a breakdown for any individual with regard to their overpayment and any payments that they've made and when they've made it. That's certainly available. All they have to do is speak with their caseworker and put that request in. We are proactive in that area. We always do provide that, so they have that knowledge base.

 

I know it's very difficult. This is one area where we are striving to work with our other departments, because the overpayments go through the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, and how that's communicated to individuals. At any time when an individual requests us to review their situation to see what their needs are, we do that.

 

We have to remember there is a balance. I know it's very difficult for people who are in those financial situations in terms of owing the government money. We do also have to have rules, though. It's the same as any one of us who lives in our society. There are many rules that we have to abide by each and every day. We have to make sure that people do understand there is accountability. We all have accountability in our lives, and it's impossible to write off every loan that is owing to us.

 

I mean, circumstances for some people certainly do improve, and then they have the capacity to pay back that loan. That's why, once again on an individual basis, we will sit down and look at the person's circumstances, to see what those circumstances are. I know even paying $10 back a month can be incredibly harsh for some people. On the other hand, sometimes people have that ability to do that, and there needs to be that balance between responsibility and accountability and the person's actual situation and whether it is truly feasible for them to be able to pay back.

 

MR. ZINCK: Just one comment, Madam Minister, in regard to that. When I was approached by this individual who just turned 65, she was elated because she got into housing, which was going to help her maintain some of her income. Again, she's on a wide range of prescription drugs, which saves her some with the Seniors' Pharmacare Program, but her comment to me was, she had just recently read in an article in the paper that the government currently eliminated $16.2 million worth of debt - debt that was considered bad or uncollectable. That was kind of her frustration: I am 65 years old, yes, I know that over the years I've owed this and when I owed it and when I was on community services they took it off my cheque. However, I've got $27,000 that even if I did offer up $10 or $20 or $25 a month, it's still never going to be collectable but it's still a burden.

 

I think that there we might have an opportunity to go back to some of those accounts, let's say in particular for seniors, who transition off the system, to go back and see exactly how much debt they are carrying and how much they owe the government. I agree, we need to get our money back, absolutely, but over what period of time are we actually going to collect that debt? That's going to be a burden to her. I think that's maybe something that we might be able to look at. You can probably go back and discuss that with the Finance Minister.

 

I want to touch on something. I raised a question in the House back in the Fall. It was a new program that was starting, and it has been a year since. I wonder if you can give me an update on how successful we've been with the Co-operative Council agreement and Target 100?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Yes, certainly, and I know you did miss my opening words. I had focused a bit on Target 100. We're very proud of the fact that this is one of those "think out of the box" strategies where we're working with an organization outside of government that has resources throughout the entire Province of Nova Scotia and has memberships throughout the province that can assist us and work in partnership. To date we have an uptake of 24 individuals who have been successful in finding employment. We're very pleased with the fact that - it takes time. Some of these 24 individuals finished the complete program and some are in the training aspect of it. There are 11 out of those 24 that are in the training aspect.

 

I believe that this is a success story where you're bringing collaborative partnerships outside of government and truly improving individuals' lives, because these are very good jobs. I know that one young lady got a managerial position, and that opportunity would have never been presented to her if it weren't for Target 100. We are very pleased.

 

It's something that does take time, of course, because you're taking an individual and you're looking at what their particular needs are, where their strengths and weaknesses are in being employable, and working to improve those and to do training in those areas where they need to have that individualized training. It's not something you can turn around overnight. I think in the very short period of time that Target 100 has been running, the success rate of having 24 is very incredible.

 

MR. ZINCK: I want to go back to ESIA again and talk about the actual process of coming to the department and applying for assistance. We have a real opportunity when somebody presents themselves. I know, in speaking to you over the last number of years, that you'd like to change that thought of the office as a last resort and that's good to hear. I look at it as an opportunity. When an individual approaches the department, we ask for the three major things: a blue form for occupancy, last year's tax assessment, and a bank account showing there's no funds or inheritances.

 

I see it as a real opportunity to engage and have that holistic approach put in place where the individual coming to us for help should know everything and anything that they are entitled to. Again, I'll go back to my opening spiel around Career Seek and what I said to the former minister: if it's 1 per cent, let's get that 1 per cent.

 

When somebody approaches us or approaches our caseworkers, we have a real opportunity to dig in and have that conversation and build that relationship with that individual. I think it goes a long way with a program like Target 100. We're not merely looking at you - and you made mention about individuals, and that's a great way to put it. You're not a number. You're an individual.

 

Sometimes clients - or individuals - come to me and they say, I didn't know I was entitled to this. How come they didn't tell me this? Are you having those kinds of conversations with the departments and the regional offices?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I think you'll be very pleased to hear that we're definitely on the same page with this one. The fact is that we have a huge undertaking that we have started to roll out, and it's called service delivery transformation. The entire concept of that is that we want a single-entry system - exactly what you're talking about. You look at an individual in a holistic manner, that the client coming in is a person and that person has a variety of needs, and that brings in what I have spoken about, the restorative approach.

 

It's the same approach, but it's on the scale of working with an individual and identifying where their needs are and what kind of resources or supports they need to be able to fulfill those needs. You would cross-reference in the terms - is it employability, do they need help in that area? Even as far as if they're going through a family crisis and maybe perhaps a divorce, do they need legal aid assistance? You look outside of Community Services, not even just the services - and we offer many - in terms of supporting individuals.

 

What do they need? Once again, using the concept that this is a continuum approach, it's not a short-term - here's what we've identified here and here's where the resources are, go find them. It is to have that caseworker wrap around the individual and be more as a partner, taking them through the process in their life to be able to face those challenges and barriers and to be able to obtain it. Basically what it is is life planning for that individual. It's not going to change overnight - what are your goals? What can we do in the next five years, the next 10 years? Where do we need to take you? What do we need to do along the way to get you to that point?

If it's a situation where it's a younger individual who needs more education to become more employable, who has a life goal to go to community college, what do we have to do to get you to that point? Then what you look at is, what are the predictable barriers and how can we go around those barriers? The significance of the wrap-around services is that we don't have a crystal ball. We might be able to identify some barriers now, but we don't know in our daily lives what's going to pop up in front of us that's a barrier or a challenge. So that's where the wrap-around service and the whole concept that it's on a continuum basis is vitally important.

 

This is a huge undertaking. I will tell you it's scary. You have approximately 2,000 individuals as employees; it's a change of way of thinking - a complete change of the thinking - and that's why the restorative approach is a model that I'm encouraging staff to become more knowledgeable about. What I'm doing is I'm encouraging - some of the staff will be going to the conference. You have particular people who are real go-getters and motivators. Those are the people who you want to go to a conference of that nature and become excited about what this can do. Then what we'll do is we will encapsulate that excitement and train them, and they'll be the trainers to train other staff. You're not going to be successful just telling individuals or staff members that this is the way we want you to do business and do it. People have to believe that it is a way of doing business that is very successful, not just for the client but for themselves as an employee, that it will reduce the stress in their life by utilizing this approach.

 

The other component, because it's very complex, is that we need to have an educational strategy for the public, because there's a certain perception of what Community Services is all about. We need to change that. We need the people to see that we are certainly there. We're not in an adversary role with them. We're not there to put roadblocks up. We're there to take those roadblocks down. So at the same time on a parallel level of educating and changing the culture of your employees, you must have a strategy on how you educate the public and get that message out.

 

Now, that's not easy in today's world with all the technology and the media base, because often it is the stories that are the sad stories, or the stories that are discouraging, that get out. That develops a perception and a negative buzz around the Department of Community Services. So one of the big challenges for us is for those good news stories to be out so that people see Community Services in a different light, and rather than begrudging to go to Community Services for assistance, they look at us as, they're the place that is going to be the stepping stone for my life; they're the place where I go for a stepping stone for my family's life, to a better life for us.

 

I'm glad we're on the same page. That's what we're working at rolling out. We have an initial strategy. We're working within government with that strategy. We're also working with staff. We have another staff person who's seconded to take that lead, because you always need somebody in that lead position.

 

MR. ZINCK: Okay, thank you for that, Madam Minister. I agree. I mean, I guess the question we have to answer to society is, what's the lifespan of an individual who approaches the department and is in receipt of income assistance? Again, what I suggested was that when somebody approaches the department, it's an opportunity to move that person beyond the system that they come to in time of need.

 

Society will judge us on that, but that's a good thing. It's an opportunity, and the more successes we have, like Target 100, and of course any time we were able to move somebody off the system, it's definitely a success story that we should be talking about, that you as a minister and as a government should be touting. So it's good to hear, and again, I look forward to getting some information on that conference.

 

Keeping with ESIA, in particular an issue we are going to see very, very soon in this region: I know we've traditionally been one of the lowest costs for individuals purchasing grocery items, but with the rising food costs we're going to see a real crunch coming here to the Maritimes. I'm wondering if you or any one of your staff can tell me, when was the last time we saw the special diet monies increased?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: We do understand that the areas of groceries and special needs are ones that are challenging for us. I have colleagues who are very passionate about this, in that we've looked at the whole aspect of grocery security or food security and the cost factor surrounding that. Once again, that's why we've been taking the strategy where we have a variety of funding initiatives that will support individuals to make choices on their own, of directing the dollars that we are providing them.

 

It's astounding when you think of how far behind we are and how we have many more steps. I mean, we can always do better in terms of the pressures that are put on individuals for groceries, and we've seriously looked at that, at the fact that you're looking at a price tag of over $50-some million to increase the amounts to bring people up to that level. It's something that we have certainly concentrated on. We know that is an issue. It's very difficult when you're so far behind, when you're running in the 30^th spot and you really want to be in first place. Every turn that you take when you can pass somebody along that marathon race, at least you're getting there; you're going forward and not backward.

 

Special needs are another area where there's an allotted amount each month, and it's an area that has not particularly had any increase in it. It is a difficult area because of the fact that as our society grows older it puts much more pressure on special needs and the complexity of the needs that we have with our clientele, and also in the area of persons with disabilities. It is an area of stress, but I think it's very important that we're not denying it, that we recognize that those two areas are our areas of challenge.

 

MR. ZINCK: I agree we can't do it all at once, and I know that you recognize that there are a number of particular lines and policies that - hopefully with the review of the ESIA we can see some of the changes. I bring the special diets monies up for a couple of reasons. An individual can have a maximum of $150 a month for extra food based on their health conditions. A lot of times what happens - my earlier comment around shelter - is that individuals unfortunately have to use some of the money to pay for their extra shelter, that they have to fork out. So that's one part of the frustration.

 

The second part of the question is centred around the requirement for an individual to have a doctor's note for these special needs dietary items. I know that in a number of our regional offices we have the Canada Food Guide, and many Canadians try to follow that. Somebody on income assistance with the allotments that they're allowed - it doesn't add up. In particular, with the doctors' notes, one of the situations we have - and I know I've brought this up in the past, over a number of years - was the fact that we've seen doctors' notes or we require individuals to have doctors' notes renewed each year.

 

What I'm finding - I've tried to deal with this internally before - is there some sort of system we can set up, such as Service Nova Scotia, that I know doesn't exist currently with Community Services? Is there some sort of system that we can set up that would notify an individual that, let's say, in three months your doctor's note is going to be up? What happens is when that comes to term of one year and the monthly calculations are keyed in by the caseworker, if that note is not updated, that individual could potentially lose their special diet monies or their bus pass money. Then we have a crisis where the MLAs would have to get involved and make a call on their behalf. Is there an opportunity for the caseworker to acknowledge the fact that they do need those notes updated?

 

Then the second part of that is that doctors right now are getting frustrated. I've had a lot of doctors get frustrated. We have a lot of medical clinics opening up where doctors are less likely to deal with somebody who is in receipt of narcotic medications. They get frustrated with trying to have these notes done, and a lot of them are charging $25 to have these notes done. Maybe it is something that, if we have an individual whose health condition we are aware of, who has been in receipt for a number of years with the same caseworker with the department - is there some way we can bypass that?

 

I think our doctors need to be doing more things with their time. I will recite one particular case, without naming the individual. I recently had an individual who had their file transferred from Dartmouth to Halifax, and when they did this they already had their medical documentation and they had their special diet approved by the supervisor in Dartmouth and by the caseworker, but when the file got transferred, the request went out to that individual to have an updated medical done again by the caseworker. Is that policy when it has already been approved?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thanks very much for the suggestions. There seem to be three different items you've brought forth. I think the tracking of the doctors' notes is a very good suggestion, and I think that as we do our service delivery transformation, those types of issues are ones that will be encompassed into that delivery system. We want to make the system much easier for people to be able to navigate, and I think that's a very good point.

 

I would hope also with modern technology that we may be able to resolve that through a computerized tracking system. I know the caseworkers have such a caseload and they have a lot of information that they have to track. The thing that we don't want to create is - and I think it's already there and we're trying to reduce it - a system where your caseworkers are spending more time doing the paperwork and tracking than they are with the clientele, which is not a good thing. We need to bring in other avenues to support the caseworkers, and that would certainly be looking at the availability of technology to be able to do that.

 

As for the other point, with respect to the doctors' notes themselves, we are analyzing that - once again, under that service delivery transformation. We know that there are several issues there, and we're working with the Department of Health and Wellness, through the Better Care Sooner strategy, and looking at the fact that there's a cost factor for doctors. There's a time factor, too, and if we can do these requests in a different manner - in terms of we are supporting more nurse practitioners, and as you are aware, we're supporting more of the pharmacists taking on more of a role in the community. I think as you see this roll out, we'll be consulting with the other departments, like how can we maybe have that as part of a consideration with the pharmacists, because it's more accessible for individuals to go to their pharmacy than it is to their doctor. So those are some areas that we are certainly focusing on - and I'm just trying to remember the third question.

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: And this concludes your hour with this clarification. Sorry, do you want him to clarify that?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Yes, if he could.

 

MR. ZINCK: The third question was in regard to an individual who had been in receipt of income assistance.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: That's right.

 

MR. ZINCK: In the Dartmouth area - had applied and went through the process, had the medical done, everything was approved, special diet and whatnot, and when the file was transferred to Halifax, upon the individual moving, the new caseworker had asked . . .

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Member, I'm afraid we are beginning to eat into the time of the Liberal caucus, so perhaps this discussion should continue in the next hour, okay?

 

MR. ZINCK: Yes, sure.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Glace Bay.

 

MR. GEOFF MACLELLAN: Thank you, Madam Chairman. I want to acknowledge my colleague, the member for Dartmouth North. He thanked everybody in the Department of Community Services, so I'm sure I'll get lots of favours now seeing I didn't mention anybody in my opening statement. So thanks, member.

 

I just want to go off the topic a little bit in terms of where we were when we left off. It's a topic that - and I know we're wrapping up the day here, and it's sort of connected to what's happening around us - it's related to housing and some of the ongoing labour issues, I guess. First of all, just to clarify, because I really haven't figured it out precisely - and Dan can probably help out here - how exactly does the relationship work between DCS and housing? Is it arm's length or is it sort of a sub-department within DCS, or what is the specific relationship?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: First, do you mind if I take a moment - you had asked a question before with regard to Career Seek and I would like to provide the answer for you.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: Okay.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: There are currently 43 participants in the Career Seek program. The majority are women and they're involved in a variety of academic programs. We had six new applications approved this Fall. So that should be similar to the written information that we gave you.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: Is there a cap? No. So there's no specific cap for that program?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: No.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: No. Okay, that's great.

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: So you were asking with respect to the relationship, well, we do not have a department of housing within Community Services, it's a division. So with respect to the Metro Housing Authority, that relationship is that they look after many things within those housing units, with the maintenance and so forth. So that's basically where - it's sort of like an arm's length, but there are connections between the division of housing and the housing authority.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: So the NSGEU group, they're not public servants, they're not part of - no, they're not?

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: They are not civil servants, the staff.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: So how is this current? So the issue they bring forward - and I know you've commented on it on a few occasions, so forgive me if I'm bringing it again - what is the process for the issue they bring forward?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: The process would be the collective bargaining process and that's what we've encouraged. This particular case is with the Metro Housing Authority, so we have to respect the process of collective bargaining between the Metro Housing Authority as their employer and the employees.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: So you don't have a meeting for them today. You're not speaking to them directly - do I understand that correctly? I must have received misinformation because my thought was that you were going to meet with that group today - and that's not the case?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: No, I'm not aware of a meeting that has been set up because the fact is, as I said, it is important to respect that relationship that they have with the Metro Housing Authority as their employer and the fact that they need to be negotiating through that collective bargaining process.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: I just want to finish off on this segment. Back to DIRECTIONS Nova Scotia - some of the issues we talked about and the persons with disabilities. The $825,000 that's considered to be new money, Independent Living Support is 21 hours per week - what specifically does that 21 hours go to? When you say support, is it a respite or what is it?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Yes, what that support would be is to work with the individual to find out what their needs are to enable them to live independently in the community, because that is our goal and their goal. So they would identify what those supports are and assist them and be part of that support system for 21 hours per week.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: You mentioned earlier the $500,000 that was announced for day programs, and $500,000 new dollars for day programs - or I'm assuming it's new. You mentioned, your final comments in the last segment were about - I asked you the question about the funding formula, and from what I understand, and I could be sort of misled here in looking at documentation, but there was $1 million committed last year and I think the terminology, or sort of how it was enveloped, was "deficit funding." So there's $1 million that was put towards programs - is this part of next year's $1 million or this is completely new?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: This is new money.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: Okay, so the $200,000 for the outreach team is not part of that either - that's completely separate from all that?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: The outreach dollars are new money also, and it's different. So that $500,000 for the day programs is $500,000 new money.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: I'm not sure if the question was asked about the outreach team by my colleagues. So that's for the western region - is there any specific sort of timeline to move that to other parts of the province or it's just year by year and this is a pilot project?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I'm actually very excited about the outreach teams and it is starting as a model in the western area and then we will roll it out throughout the province. I don't have a specific time frame, but of course we want to do it in a reasonable amount of time but we also want to make sure that when we roll it out, of course when something starts as a model you want to make sure that everything is running smoothly and actually there are other opportunities with that particular model to work with other partners within the province. And since the announcement was made, I've had other partners come forth who have skills and opportunities that we're going to pursue in terms of partnerships.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: How do you see the outreach team coming together in terms of the components? You mentioned psychologists, and do you have an idea or is it sort of in the broad planning stages, or do you know specifically how the team would sort of be assembled?

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Yes, I have my ideas with regard to that because there are similar teams that have been brought together under a mental health model and within Capital Health. So there are some similar models that are there and rather than create something that already exists sort of in similarities but are different, that's what I'm talking about with those partnerships - of having some discussions. That's what we're going to follow up with now with Capital Health and some others that have been doing similar outreach under mental health, and so we will be able to have those discussions and see if there are opportunities to partner or broaden what we're doing and what they're doing. That is just at the initial stages - we just recently talked to the individuals to set up a meeting, so we're looking at my schedule to be able to do that.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: I appreciate that so I'm looking forward - just keep me informed as it unfolds. I know you will.

 

One more topic that the time will permit, one more conversation. Early intervention programs, I contacted you a couple months ago regarding one of the EIPs in Glace Bay which is called Allkids intervention program. You sent a letter that sort of addressed some of the issues and the things that the Allkids deal with. They have a waiting list of about 70 kids, and staff turnover is huge because this is invaluable experience for someone in this field. They gain that experience and then they move up for higher salaries, and then there is, I guess, an issue of overall funding. DCS helps out for sure and United Way, they're a major contributor, but that is obviously becoming less in these tough times. Of course, fundraising is always difficult, but in the economic realities it's even worse.

 

For the children that experience this program, I know in Glace Bay, the whole EIP pocket itself has tremendous success with getting kids ready for school and daycare and those types of things and it really helps families chart a course for their boy or girl.

 

In the letter you made mention a reference to some additional positions that may be coming under the EIP - can you elaborate as best you can on those?

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I should let you know that we only have about four minutes remaining with today's time.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Okay, so I will, quickly. Number one, early intervention - I totally agree with you, and we all agree, it is vital. Because I have a short period of time I think it's important for you to know what we have done, and if it doesn't cover everything we can discuss that between yourself and myself. An additional $278.9 thousand will be invested in 2011-12 and that is to address those wait less needs. Our total investment for 2011-12 in this sector is $2.72 million and we invested an additional $111 thousand in 2010-11, and this was to address the increase in operational costs that the early intervention centres were experiencing in 2009-10.

 

Actually, we support the operation of 17 early intervention programs, so that would affect 700 children province-wide. The increase that the department has given to the early intervention is $617 thousand - that's since 2005-06. We do recognize that there are some financial challenges within that sector and we also know that there is some thought of cross referencing in the Department of Education, so the Minister of Education and I have met with some early intervention individuals to talk about some strategies going forward in the future.

 

MR. MACLELLAN: I guess I'll throw in one more quick one, since we have a couple of minutes.

 

According to the budget numbers there are 72 additional new positions under the department. We had some questions, back in December I believe, and the Premier fielded those questions about regional office staff reductions in Sydney. I think there were about seven positions in some that weren't being filled that were part-time positions, others were contract and the likes - can you sort of explain those numbers, why it shows an increase? Certainly the feeling is that there will be some level of reductions.

 

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: The increase in the number of employees is reflective of the fact that we have had Children's Aid Societies coming over under the auspices of the Department of Community Services, so then you will see the increased numbers of employees because of that.

 

In terms of your situation in Cape Breton is the fact those were actually not long-term employee positions that were cut, those were contracted positions that had specific time frames to them. What we do in the department is we constantly track what the caseloads are, and if we have a swing in caseloads - either the upswing, that there's more of a need, we will bring those individuals in, and when the caseloads have decreased somewhat then because they're on a contract basis we don't refill those contracts. So there's a logical reason for the fluctuation that you see in employees.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Madam Minister. I believe that brings us to the end of our time for today.

 

That leaves 44 minutes for questioning to the Liberal caucus on Monday when we return.

 

The motion is carried.

 

[The subcommittee adjourned at1:51 p.m.]