HALIFAX, FRIDAY, APRIL 16, 2010

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY

9:21 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. David Wilson

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I call the Subcommittee on Supply to order. It's my understanding that the questions have been asked from both Opposition Parties so we'll now recognize the minister with some closing remarks.

The honourable Minister of Community Services.

HON. DENISE PETERSON-RAFUSE: Mr. Chairman, I welcome everybody today on this glorious, sunny Friday. I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to make the closing remarks. As you know, appearing at Budget Estimates is often about numbers and so I went in today with some different types of numbers and these are the numbers that really matter to me.

For example, well over 50,000 Nova Scotians receive assistance and help through the Department of Community Services each year, and that involves people in every region of this province. The next time you are out in a crowd, look around and the chances are very good that the budget we discussed here is helping several individuals and families in that crowd, whether it is through our housing programs, programs to support families, or our income support and employment training programs.

Let me take the opportunity to break that down for you: 27,500, that is how many Nova Scotians we help each year with housing needs; 28,000, that is how many low-income families we help to feed and house around the province; 134, the number of child care centres able to make their space even better for the children they care for every day; 121, the number of children who were adopted in Nova Scotia last year, children who now have a safe and loving family to call their own; 800, the number of foster families in Nova Scotia, and these are families that are willing to provide temporary support to children who find themselves in need of a safe place to stay until their home life is stable.

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On this point I want to emphasize that 800 may seem like a large number but we need more and we will be launching a recruitment campaign to let families know we still need them, and I encourage everyone here today to work with us with regard to that campaign to get the message out.

The number of individuals we support through our Services for Persons with Disabilities Program is 5,000. These are people whose lives we are helping improve every day. It is much more than the dollar signs, to me this is what makes the work so rewarding and so important. For instance, as I mentioned in my introductory remarks, Community Services held an event at the Nova Scotia Community College daycare centre in Dartmouth on Monday. I was so pleased to announce $5 million in support for child care in Nova Scotia. We are using the money to create 400 new subsidies, a new grant for child care centres, and eliminating a parent fee.

I was delighted to be approached by a parent who will benefit from the new money. Hearing her words about how our support was helping her was amazing. She probably talked to me for at least 20 minutes and she kept repeating over and over: You don't know what this means to me. She has been working very hard for the last three years in the community college, gaining her education, and she'll be going shortly on a work term. I can't count how many times she said: You don't know what this means to me.

This brings the number of subsidized spaces established under the Early Learning and Child Care Plan to 1,100. Even more impressive is that the province now supports almost 4,000 families with subsidized child care. We certainly value our child care sector and as a province, even as a country, we need to acknowledge their monetary value. Anyone who has ever had a child enrolled in a daycare knows how important a good child care worker is to you and your child. We are talking about professional workers who are trained and educated - often well-educated, with one or more degrees.

It's amazing what a young child can learn at a daycare even before they enter school. This is a system I support and our government supports; however, as a society we need to pay child care workers more, it's just that simple. They are worth more than what they are making. Unfortunately, finding the money is not that simple. This is not government obligation alone. Society, including parents, must be willing to pay child care employees what they are worth, and we are going to work together to educate and encourage people to make them understand that value.

Mr. Chairman, we are keeping our commitments to Nova Scotians to make life better and more affordable. This government acknowledges the challenges we face yet we are determined to get back to balance. We will do that with reason and compassion. I am proud to be a part of a government that puts people first, a government that recognizes that we can, and indeed must, live within our means, yet still provide programs and services that will give Nova Scotians most in need the support that they require and deserve.

Mr. Chairman, we can do this because of our Premier's leadership. With his guidance we will carry out our plan of fiscal responsibility while making life better for families in every region. The Department of Community Services has submitted a budget request to this House for $971.562 million. This request is on behalf of the thousands of DCS clients, our hundreds of service providers, our stakeholders, and our staff. Our numbers are big.

As I mentioned at the start, we help a lot of people and we touch many more indirectly. We are tackling poverty this year. The affordability measures introduced in this Budget Speech speak directly to Nova Scotians with low incomes. The Affordable Living Tax Credit recognizes that Nova Scotia families earning $30,000 or less deserve a break at the cash register. The Poverty Reduction Credit addresses Nova Scotians who may be disabled and unable to work.

Unfortunately, Mr. Chairman, Nova Scotia has the highest proportion of disabled citizens of any province in Canada. About 20 per cent of our population has some type of disability. We may not be able to change that statistic but we will certainly work towards making life better for people with disabilities. I might also mention that today at Saint Mary's University and Mount Saint Vincent University they are celebrating the ratification of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

Also this year we will overhaul the Employment Support and Income Assistance Program. We are calling it a redesign and it is much more than tweaking around the edges. A project director and team are examining all parts of the ESIA Program. In collaboration with the broader income and social support strategy, the team with consultation intends to transform income support to encourage workforce attachment, enhance quality of life, broaden support for the working poor and those at risk for poverty, and break the cycle of poverty by focusing on children and allowing supports like subsidies and incentives for low-income Nova Scotians.

We're also looking at creating a new client-centred model focused on improved service delivery. We are transforming the Employment Support and Income Assistance Program to increase economic independence and enhance social inclusion. The program will be client-focused and we will give lasting support instead of being a last resort. This new philosophy will transform the program into one that achieves positive outcomes for clients and their children to benefit all.

[9:30 a.m.]

Over the past years the department has welcomed the integration of 10 Children's Aid Societies into our family of Community Services. The invitation is now out there to the remaining three and we are hopeful that they will join us. The transitions of the 10 former agencies have gone very well. Offices have and will remain open, services have and will remain available, and staff have and will remain employed. By integrating these offices into district offices we are better able to provide consistent service to families and children in every region. Staff will join the civil service and receive the benefits offered through the Public Service. Let me be clear, those services that are in place today for families will remain in place and will continue to be accessible to those who need them.

Mr. Chairman, consultation with Nova Scotians is very important to our government. I have consulted with many different sectors and I have indicated my availability to meet with groups and stakeholders. I have already met with more than 25 groups that are interested in or involved with the Department of Community Services. Just this week I met with the Private Licensed Administrators Association and a couple weeks ago with the Non-Profit Directors Association. Both meetings were very good and these were instructive and constructive meetings for all of us.

When groups or individuals rely solely on the media or hearsay for their information, things get very garbled as we know. By coming together for face-to-face chats, we can speak frankly and both sides get to hear first-hand about each other's issues or concerns. As a result, we were able to iron out some issues and become more productive, and that's exactly what I like. I firmly believe that consultation is key to advancing our mutual interests. Sometimes we disagree but I know that everyone's hearts are in the right place.

The expectations upon our new government are very high and we all know that. Everyone also knows that our financial situation does not allow us to do everything we want or wish we could do but, as I have said many times, that won't stop us, we will continue to make the right decisions for Nova Scotia families.

I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to present my closing remarks.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E2 stand?

Resolution E2 stands.

Resolution E23 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $10,226,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Government Offices, pursuant to the Estimate, for the Advisory Council on the Status of Women.

Resolution E35 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $1,902,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Seniors, pursuant to the Estimate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolutions E23 and E35 carry?

The resolutions are carried.

Thank you, I appreciate your time and the efforts of your staff in answering questions of the members.

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So we'll take about a two-minute break. I know the staff for the Department of Environment and the minister are here, so we'll take about a two-minute break.

[9:34 a.m. The subcommittee recessed.]

[9:39 a.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I will now call the subcommittee back to order. I would like to welcome the Minister of Environment and his staff, so we will now be debating Resolution E7.

Resolution E7 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $52,777,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Environment, pursuant to the Estimate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Environment.

HON. STERLING BELLIVEAU: Thank you very much. It is my honour to be presenting to you, my colleagues, and the people of Nova Scotia the details of this year's budget for the Department of Environment. Our department's budget for this year is $52.777 million and I am certainly proud to be the Minister of Environment.

Sitting at my table today: to my left is Laurie Bennett, she is the manager of Financial Services; and to my right, in a few minutes, Chris Daly will join us, our executive director of the Policy and Corporate Services Division. Our deputy, Nancy Vanstone, has some personal time she's enjoying this week, and I want to take the time to publicly recognize my deputy and the many staff I have. I really appreciate the hard work they do in this particular department.

We have certainly accomplished many things in the past 10 months. We will build on those accomplishments in this new fiscal year. My department's mandate is to support and promote the protection, enhancement, and careful use of our environment; create, manage, and protect wilderness areas; preserve, protect, and study ecological sites; and promote the understanding and appreciation among the people of Nova Scotia. It's also to conserve and allocate water resources to ensure long-term self-sufficiency and utilization, and also to promote the interconnections between a healthy economy and a healthy environment for our province's long-term prosperity.

Fortunately for me and the people of Nova Scotia, we have talented and dedicated staff members who help us deliver this mandate. We have 282 hard-working employees in 11 offices delivering many programs and services throughout our province. These employees help to implement the department's many initiatives, which I would like to outline for you.

First, I will give an overview of the Department of Environment. Nova Scotia Environment was established on April 1, 2008, as a department dedicated to the environment and climate change. It was a good time to re-evaluate our business and identify our goals and priorities. In 2009 a five-year plan for the department was developed. The plan highlights our vision: "Nova Scotia's environment is healthy, well-managed, and supports prosperous communities." That vision is in harmony with the province's Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act and with the province's economic growth strategy.

The department's mission statement spells out how we will achieve our vision. Our mission is to ensure that "Nova Scotia Environment leads the way to ensure that our environment is valued, protected, and enhanced in partnerships with all Nova Scotians." Our strategic plans include five specific goals. The goals are carefully selected to ensure progress towards achieving our mission and our vision.

The five goals of our strategic plan are: to achieve desired environmental outcomes; to cultivate partnerships and environmental stewardship; to enhance service delivery; to develop dynamic instruments to deliver programs; and to foster a winning workplace. So it is clear that the department has done some comprehensive work on our strategic plan. That work has helped us align the design and the organizations with our goals and priorities.

Our organization consists of five core business areas. I will take a few moments to take you through the structure of this organization. The Policy and Corporate Services Division is responsible for the coordination of policies and planning; conducts research, evaluations, and provides advice; provides consistency in the department's business practices; and oversees the provincial environmental impact assessment process.

Our Information and Business Services branch provides a focus within the department for the development, use, and access to our information, including operational records, published material, and Web site content; developed and implements the department's Occupational Health and Safety program; developed an expanded Web-based business system to enhance government's capacity to share information and knowledge about the state of the environment and emerging issues with Nova Scotians; and provides programs, processes, and services to support employee and organizational growth and development.

[9:45 a.m.]

Our Policy and Corporate Services Division also helps our department's involvement in the Round Table on Environment and Sustainable Prosperity. I had the pleasure of meeting with the round table in September. The round table has 21 members, Mr. Chairman. It has representatives from business, industry, environmental organizations, the legal community, the university community, and the Aboriginal community. It also includes the Deputy Ministers of Environment and Economic and Rural Development.

This round table is co-chaired by Ray Côté, the former head of the School for Resource and Environmental Studies at Dalhousie. He is well-known for his leadership in the establishment of the Eco-Efficiency Centre to help small- and medium-size enterprises improve their bottom line by reducing waste, such as energy and water.

The round table advises government on broad issues of environment and sustainable prosperity. It gives feedback and advises on the progress towards meeting the goals of the Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act. Over the last year the round table established three working groups. They gave advice and made recommendations on engaging Nova Scotians, the Environmental Trust Fund, and the established indicators of a sustainable prosperity. The round table has also given government recommendations on ways to develop an employment strategy that targets sustainable prosperity.

Mr. Chairman, our Policy and Corporate Services Division also helps coordinate our link with the Council of Atlantic Environment Ministers . I attended the most recent meeting of the Council of Atlantic Environment Ministers in St. John's last September. We discussed the use of non-essential pesticides and we agreed that it would be wise to work together on pesticide regulations in this region. This would reduce misuse or provide predictability to pesticide manufacturers, employ best practices and improve public awareness and education.

The federal greenhouse gas emissions and air pollutants objectives were also discussed at this meeting. The federal goal is to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 17 per cent over 2005 levels by the year 2020. It was also agreed that the federal government needs to ensure the equitable treatment of Atlantic Canada; recognize the value and impact of pre-2006 emission reductions; and recognize the roles of our provinces in implementing reductions by engaging them in the development of any cap-and-trade system. It was also agreed that the federal government needs to support development of modern transmission capacities, including smart grid technology; recognize regulatory equivalency agreements; avoid wealth transfers on the climate change technology fund offset mechanism; consider eligibility of offset critics from outside of Canada; and also provide full credit for hydro development, energy efficiency, and renewable energy.

Mr. Chairman, the 33^rd New England Governors and Eastern Canadian Premiers Conference was held just prior to our Council of Atlantic Environment Ministers meeting. Four resolutions were adopted concerning green economy, renewable energy, climate change and energy efficiency. We also discussed the proposal for the Atlantic Regional Adaptation Collaborative, and the memorandum of understanding for the principle of co-operation between the Atlantic Provinces and Environment Canada.

Lastly, we looked at the significant benefits to all Atlantic Provinces provided by our federal Clean Air and Climate Change Trust Fund. In our province we call the funding program ecoNova Scotia for Clean Air and Climate Change. It is a great example of how federal funding can be leveraged in measurable reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. I attended that meeting with the other provincial and federal Environment Ministers in Kingston, Ontario, in October 2009. These opportunities to meet with my colleagues are very helpful as we deal with many similar issues and can achieve more for Nova Scotians if we work with our federal and provincial colleagues. The next meeting of the Council of Atlantic Environment Ministers will take place this summer in New Brunswick.

To conclude this section of the Policy and Corporate Services Division - $4.373 million, with a complement of 34 staff.

The Environmental Monitoring and Compliance Division delivers field operations related to environmental promotion and protection, from regional offices throughout Nova Scotia. This includes outreach and education, processing applications, inspection, and compliance enforcements. Their budget for 2010-11 is $12.177 million. The Environmental Monitoring and Compliance Division is a service-delivery arm of Nova Scotia Environment. We have a team of 160 staff across our province, located in our district offices from Sydney to Yarmouth. It is the largest division in the department and is focused on serving the needs of Nova Scotians.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to describe some of their responsibilities, but before I do I would like to acknowledge the tremendous effort and commitment our Environmental Monitoring and Compliance staff show every day and I personally, again, would like to thank them publicly. They have served our province with professionalism and efficiency, to help ensure the health of our environment and our people.

Mr. Chairman, I am proud to be here representing such committed professionals as our staff. This busy division reviews and processes 5,400 applications per year that relate to more than 100 activities that interact with the environment. This division also monitors and inspects the largest reclamation projects in Canada, such as the Sydney tar ponds cleanup project in Cape Breton Regional Municipality. This division promotes environmental stewardship through education and compliance initiatives. The division inspects more than 3,600 facilities currently under approval from the department.

To be more efficient, the division brought in a new computerized activity tracking system in the summer of 2009. Inspectors have mobile tablets to record and track complaints, incidents, and claims requests that may trigger an inspection. This system helps ensure faster response to the problems and better service to Nova Scotians in all regions of our province.

Mr. Chairman, another division is the Environmental Science and Program Management Division. It develops and delivers environmental management programs directed at sustainable development. This division has a budget for the fiscal year of $33.023 million. Its programs are designed to protect, manage and enhance the environment by providing a strong environmental management framework for environmental issues in our province. It develops and maintains a comprehensive approach to the protection and sustainable use of Nova Scotia's air, water, and land resources.

This division is also responsible for the ecoNova Scotia for Clean Air and Climate Change program, and ecoNova Scotia is a funding program that supports the province's goal to reduce greenhouse gas and air pollutant emissions. This goal is spelled out in the Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act and the Climate Change Action Plan. I'm hoping - yes, I'm hoping, Mr. Chairman - that I'll get some questions on the ecoNova Scotia program because I think that's one of the most successful stories in our province. So I'll just simply plant that little seed here in my opening remarks.

Mr. Chairman, in 2010-11 this program was estimated to spend up to $25 million; ecoNova Scotia's municipal programs offer grants to the province's 55 municipalities. Its Environmental Technology Program offers grants to eligible businesses and researchers. This fund also supports projects; for example, it is helping to get our government's house in order. Investment has been made in energy efficiency upgrades for the government's own buildings. We are providing leadership by greening our operations and saving on our energy bills at the same time. This fund currently supports 152 projects. It is estimated that every $100 investment in municipal and environmental technology projects will reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 0.81 tons and air pollutants by 2.46 kilograms each year.

Now, to move to the Environment and Sustainable Prosperity Partnerships Division of our department. This is a relatively new division and has six full-time staff. Its budget for the year is $651,000. This division focuses on the benefits of partnership, the benefits of our economy and our environment, to the education of our youth, and to innovation. We are building a network of partnerships including non-government organizations, businesses, academics and the municipalities. In time we hope these partnerships will be an integral part of our province's progress toward sustainability.

The division has three sections: Environmental Trade and Innovation, the Nova Scotia Youth Conservation Corps, and the Outreach in Education. The Environmental Trade and Innovation sector works with other related departments to offer business assistance to support and promote environmental industries, innovations, and technologies. It also helps find sustainable solutions to environmental problems that have commercial and economic benefits. Our goal is to make Nova Scotia a one-stop shop for environmental solutions. To achieve this goal we provide a broad array of services to the sector such as exporting counselling, business advice, trade promotion, and the organization of incoming and outgoing trade missions.

The sludge dewatering truck is a prime example of this division's work to find an environmental and economic solution. This innovative technology represents the benefits of Nova Scotia's green economy. The dewatering truck is a vehicle that pumps out sludge from septic holding tanks. Earlier this year I took part in the launch of the technology in the Municipality of the County of Antigonish. The sludge dewatering truck can handle up to 10 times more than the current trucks. That means it will require fewer trips to and from the discharge locations that older trucks require. There is also a great savings on the environment as it will result in the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions and the savings of about 80 per cent on fuel annually. What's more, our economy will benefit through the production and assembly of the dewatering truck by ABCO Industries in Lunenburg. Operator training and technical support will also be based in Nova Scotia.

Mr. Chairman, our Environmental Trade and Innovation staff have led a business development mission focused on clean technology to the Bright Green conference at the United Nations Conference on Climate Change in Copenhagen, and we had a partnership to support regional offices in the Gulf and in the Caribbean. We have finalized the first phase of the Trinidad and Tobago implementation arrangement on solid waste management. It is expected that Phase II will present significant opportunities for Nova Scotia companies, both in terms of the services and the technology related to waste management. In fact, ABCO Industries is currently fabricating a mobile dewatering truck for export to this small island nation.

[10:00 a.m.]

The Nova Scotia Youth Conservation Corps crew provides local organizations with the capacity to carry out community-based environmental projects. The Youth Conservation Corps works to promote the mandate of Nova Scotia Environment by selecting projects which help reach the goals outlined in the Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act. Some of the Youth Conservation Corps 2009 accomplishments included collaboration with some of the 20 communities, partners and organizations to create 50 summer program crew positions throughout the province.

The Bluenose Coastal Action Foundation organized a Mushamush River restoration team; the Nova Scotia Youth Conservation Corps members installed rock sills, deflectors, planted trees, removed debris, and maintained past restoration projects. They conducted field surveys, collected water-quality data, and represented the Bluenose Coastal Action Foundation at local festivals and events.

The Town of Kentville, the Kings County Community Development Agency and the Kings Transit Authority sponsored a public engagement crew. These youth surveyed citizens about the idea of an environmentally sustainable community; surveyed public transit riders about the satisfaction with the service; compiled and analyzed survey results; and educated the public about ongoing sustainability initiatives. Our own department conducted an inventory on the details and information surrounding large dams, updated the dam database, and visited several observation well sites to assess water quality. Mr. Chairman, the Nova Scotia Youth Conservation Corps provides excellent opportunities for youth to develop critical skills on the job.

Our Environmental Education and Outreach branch aims to help the department build relationships with community partners, including municipalities and non-government organizations and others. On March 27^th the branch was a key partner for the Nova Scotia Environmental Network and the Department of Education when we organized a Green Roots Symposium. This event brought together community environmental groups to discuss education and sustainable development. I had the pleasure of attending the Green Roots Symposium and I can report that the spirit of innovation and co-operation was very strong. We also hope to build on this success and to form new partnerships outside and inside our government and facilitate new ones between third parties. We hope that one day Nova Scotians will work together to meet and exceed our goals for sustainable prosperity.

Next is the Climate Change Directorate. This section of our department has a staff of 10 and a budget of $1.522 million for the year. The Climate Change Directorate is responsible for developing policies that will help mitigate and adapt to climate change impacts. It leads the work to put the Climate Change Action Plan into effect. This year we have increased their budget by $250,000 to assist with the implementation of the Climate Change Action Plan. It assesses opportunities for greenhouse gas reductions; sets priorities; develops strategies, programs, and other actions to reduce emissions; and helps Nova Scotia prepare for climate change. This directorate assists many departments such as Energy, Natural Resources, Fisheries and Aquaculture, Economic and Rural Development, and many others in achieving their climate change actions.

In December 2009 at the United Nations Conference on Climate Change in Copenhagen, we saw that future economic growth in environment and improvement are one and the same. Investment in addressing climate change can also improve our energy security and make us less reliant on fossil fuels, which can be costly.

Our climate change initiatives have given us a leadership profile and won us awards at the United Nations Conference on Climate Change in Copenhagen in December. We were recognized for being the only - and I repeat, the only - province in Canada to place caps on the amount of greenhouse gas emissions that industry can emit. We received a second award for our commitment to greenhouse alternatives. A key part of our reductions is renewable energy. A new target requiring 20 per cent of electricity coming from renewable sources has been adopted and we continue to pursue opportunities for tidal energy.

Meeting our targets will require significant investment in energy efficiency and renewable energy, which generates economic opportunities and a growing green economy. We want to capture some of the growth of our companies in our economy. We are hoping our investment in a cleaner and greener Nova Scotia will position us to capture the growing global market for renewable-energy and energy-efficient products and services. This will lead to significant opportunities in the green economy. Over the next four years, about $300 million will be invested in Nova Scotia through programs of energy efficiency and energy conservation.

In a few minutes I will update you on the progress of the Climate Change Action Plan. First, I want to update you on some of the targets of the Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act, also known as EGSPA. This Act became law in Nova Scotia in the Spring of 2007 with unanimous support from the House. It contains 21 goals and two overarching objectives. It legislates greenhouse emissions and solid waste targets, plus others, for the province. These legislated targets help share much of the work our department does. The Round Table on Environment and Sustainable Prosperity advises the Minister of Environment on EGSPA - representatives from business, non-government associations, academics - and we are making progress in meeting the EGSPA goals in many areas, all divisions of our departments.

First, I would speak about protected areas. The province is committed to legally protecting 12 per cent of the total land mass of our province by the year 2015. At the end of 2009, about 8.6 per cent of the province was legally protected. We are on track to meet the 12 per cent goal. In 2009 the province designated three new wilderness areas. Designation is pending to protect lands purchased in 2007 from Bowater Mersey and public consultation is underway for another new wilderness area in the Halifax Regional Municipality area. We are also evaluating options for establishing a large wilderness area within Crown lands in and near Chignecto Game Sanctuary in Cumberland County. As well, this past year considerable progress has been made to conserve privately owned lands.

Last September the government provided a special allotment of more than $75 million for the 2009-10 fiscal year to enrich Nova Scotia's environment, boost the economy, and help the province reach its land-protection goal. Thanks to the strategic, impressive land purchases, future generations of Nova Scotians will have significantly more land to enjoy and our government will have future opportunities to grow the economy.

In the span of just a few months we've seized rare opportunities to put land, some of it high conservation quality, back in the hands of Nova Scotians at a great price. The large land purchase was very successful. It concluded at the end of March with more than 140,000 acres added to the Crown land base. Most of these lands will be considered for protection with the usual public consultation process.

We are also working on a comprehensive water resource management strategy for Nova Scotia. The strategy will help determine how much water we will use, and guide us on the best ways to conserve and protect it and manage its use. Our department consulted broadly with Nova Scotians and met directly with key stakeholders, organizations, municipalities and other interest groups. A draft set of policy options was prepared last year for a second round of stakeholder consultations this year. The result, I'm happy to say, is that we are planning for a comprehensive provincial water resource management strategy to be completed this year. That will be another EGSPA goal, which we will reach.

We are also working with the municipality's drinking water facilities that are required to meet Nova Scotia drinking water treatment standards as part of the Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act commitments. There are 84 of these facilities as of the end of March 2010 and 65 per cent of these facilities have met the province's standards. I would like to note that at this time 90 per cent of the population has drinking water that meets these standards. As the numbers show, some municipalities are struggling to meet the standards and are not yet in compliance. We are working with the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations to help municipalities overcome their challenges so they can achieve the compliance.

Under the Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act, septic treatment facilities, also known as septic lagoons, will be operated in accordance with the province's guidelines. Each septic treatment facility in the province is required to prepare and implement a plan to meet the new requirements outlined in the guidelines. All operating septic treatment facilities in the province currently have updated approval. Currently, 90 per cent of the province's wastewater facilities, also known as sewage treatment plants, meet the Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act target of at least primary treatment.

Nova Scotia has begun implementing the national Municipal Wastewater Effluent Strategy that goes beyond the goal in the Act. This strategy, developed through the Council of Canadian Ministers of Environment, sets out a framework to manage discharge from municipal wastewater facilities. This long-term target of over 30 years is to achieve secondary level treatment standards. A nationally coordinated committee oversees progress as the strategy is being implemented. Nova Scotia also has a provincial-municipal advisory committee overseeing that work.

All municipal wastewater facilities in Nova Scotia will be issued new approvals requiring them to meet the secondary treatment levels within 10, 20 and 30 years, based on the level of risk that the facility poses. This stricter national standard will require a significant investment of funding, resources and education. We will have to keep working closely with our federal government and Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations to help municipalities reach this challenging goal.

Nova Scotia will soon have a wetland conservation policy, a water resource management strategy, a national resources strategy, led by Natural Resources, and a coastal management strategy, led by Fisheries and Aquaculture. Together they will form an integral framework to foster good stewardship and sustainable prosperity.

In the case of a wetlands conservation policy, we continue to be committed to the Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act targets of preventing the net loss of wetlands. We've consulted broadly on this proposed policy. We even extended the consultation period to allow for the larger response we've received. Staff are currently working through these comments and discussing options to address concerns. The wetlands conservation policy will help our province conserve wetlands for the future while managing a sustainable economic development.

[10:15 a.m.]

Contaminated sites in the province are currently dealt with using the Environment Act and the Nova Scotia Environment policies and guidelines; a more formal process had been requested by the public, site owners, lenders, insurers and municipalities, among others. An amendment to the Environment Act in 2006 included the authority of a new regulatory tool requirement to deliver the commitment of EGSPA and will help to clarify and improve consistency in a formalized, decisive system. Significant technical, legal and financial complexities, as well as a consideration for implementation of specific groups affected by potential changes in the current system, have led to delays in the timeline for this target.

A stakeholder advisory committee was established, and extensive internal and external consultations are ongoing. We are taking the time required to ensure that we have a clear, concise system that meets the needs of Nova Scotians, that will ensure not just the protection of our health and the quality of our environment, but also stimulate redevelopment to ensure our economy continues to prosper.

The Law Reform Commission of Nova Scotia released a discussion paper in 2009 to gather public input on contaminated sites, processes and liabilities in Nova Scotia. Their final report released in December 2009 presented recommendations for improving the current legislative regime. Many of these recommendations have been incorporated in our proposed regulations and supporting policy framework.

The Nova Scotia Department of Environment will soon release a discussion paper aimed at the development of a new regulatory approach to cleaning up contaminated sites in our province. This consultation will lead to the draft regulations that will go out for public comment this Fall.

Our department is also renewing the internationally-known, Nova Scotia Solid Waste-Resource Management Strategy. The renewable strategy will focus on achieving a key goal of the Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act, a disposable target of no more than 300 kilograms of waste per person in Nova Scotia by 2015.

Mr. Chairman, the province currently disposes of 417 kilograms per person, per year, a disposal rate of 50 per cent lower than the Canadian average. To meet this aggressive target, we need to continue to support and foster innovation, partnership, stewardship and education as new waste diversion programs are implemented and existing ones are improved upon. These new and improved systems will help us in meeting the target and create greater resource efficiencies that benefit our environment and economy and enhance Nova Scotia's lifestyle.

Our government is committed to having cleaner air and a stronger, healthier environment for today's families. Our department continues to make good progress in meeting our air quality targets through the Air Quality branch. The nitrous oxide emission caps for Nova Scotia Power took effect January 2009. The cap set out at 21,365 tons per year for this pollutant and the target was achieved. We are also on the way to achieving a 50 per cent reduction in sulphur dioxide emissions from Nova Scotia Power.

The air quality reductions under the Environment Act were amended in 2007 to lower the Nova Scotia Power mercury emission caps to 65 kilograms by 2010. Nova Scotia Power is installing new mercury abatement equipment. That mercury target will be achieved by Nova Scotia Power meeting the 2010 emission caps. We are also monitoring pollutants known as particulate matter and ground-level ozone.

The Canada-wide standards for fine particulate matter in the ozone were established by the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment. As well, new instruments to measure fine particulate matter in ground-level ozone have been installed at various stations across the province. They will help us determine whether we meet the 2010 standards.

Also, Nova Scotia is working closely with other jurisdictions on new-vehicle emission standards. These include our federal, provincial and territorial counterparts, and the northeastern United States. In recent weeks you will have heard about a recent federal government announcement about fuel efficiency standards for motor vehicles, where Canada made a commitment to harmonize with the United States.

On April 1^st, the federal government released proposed passenger-automobile and light-truck greenhouse gas emission regulations. The proposed regulations are designed to align with the United States' national standards for improvement in fuel economy and reducing greenhouse gases for vehicles, 2012 to 2016 models. These standards would fall under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act and there's a plan to have the regulations finalized by the Fall of 2010. We are pleased to see the federal government move forward with greenhouse gas emission standards for new vehicles.

I will now move to the Nova Scotia Climate Change Action Plan. This plan is very much connected to the Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act. The Act states that in 2020, greenhouse gas emissions will be at least 10 per cent below 1990 levels. The Climate Change Action Plan includes the path for how we will reach this level and includes caps on greenhouse gas emissions for the electricity sector that came into effect on January 1^st of this year. The regulations for caps are only one element of the approach. This is why our government announced last year that we are expanding upon the Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act goal that relates to renewable energy.

We announced that by 2015, 25 per cent of our electricity will come from renewable energy sources that will reduce our dependency on foreign fossil fuel. This is five years earlier than the previous commitment.

Mr. Chairman, significant progress was made in 2009 towards many other actions in the Climate Change Action Plan. One year after releasing the action plan, the Province of Nova Scotia has completed many of the commitments and has started working on almost all of the actions. Amendments were made to the Building Code Act which established a requirement for all new residential units, as well as home additions or major renovations and commercial buildings under the current size, to achieve the EnerGuide rate of 80.

The Sustainable Procurement Policy was developed to guide government in making purchasing decisions that are influenced by environmental, economic and social considerations. A memorandum of understanding on climate change between the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities and the Province of Nova Scotia was signed in November. It provides a coordinated approach for dealing with common climate change issues. Nova Scotia signed an agreement in principle with the Government of Canada to work together to reduce greenhouse gas emissions that contribute to climate change as well as air pollution.

An adaptation fund was created by Nova Scotia Environment to encourage adaptation research and development. Our department is also leading by example on climate change. In 2009 we completed an inventory on our own greenhouse gas emissions. Our department emits about 1,100 tons of greenhouse gas each year. I am pleased to announce that as a result of this work, we initiated an energy efficiency upgrade of the lighting of our Halifax office that will reduce those emissions by over 10 per cent and will also save more than $20,000 a year in energy costs.

As I mentioned earlier, we have added an additional $250,000 to help implement the Climate Change Action Plan. This will help support the demand for public education and outreach projects, as well as our commitment to actions on climate change impact and adaptation. A good example is support that we provide to the Climate Change Centre. This will be hosted by Clean Nova Scotia. Among other things, they have delivered educational sessions to over 8,000 students at over 70 schools - the requests for these sessions continue to grow.

As well, we know that our climate will continue to change and we will have to adapt to warmer average temperatures, higher sea levels, and weather events that are more frequent and more extreme. In 2009 the government invested in the Atlantic Regional Adaptation Collaborative with Natural Resources Canada and other Atlantic Provinces. This major initiative will help to reduce the vulnerability of coastal Nova Scotia climate change by identifying high-risk areas and providing options for adapting to these risks. Nova Scotia's contribution to this initiative includes approximately $600,000 cash and $850,000 in-kind resources over three years. The federal government is matching Nova Scotia's contribution with an $850,000 cash contribution.

Other initiatives will also assist adaptation efforts. The interdepartmental steering committee and external advisory committee are coordinating adaptation efforts. A Web site will be launched in 2010 with information and tools to support adaptation to climate change in Nova Scotia. This will be a clearing house of information of climate change impacts and opportunities for professionals in this particular work. Additionally, a report will be finalized in 2010 that provides guidance on how to incorporate climate change impacts and adaptation issues in the province's environmental assessment process.

In addition to all the work going on, here are some of the accomplishments the department can point to from the past fiscal year. I mentioned earlier the discussions with the Atlantic Ministers of Environment regarding pesticides in Nova Scotia. In November 2009, the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities asked the province to institute a province-wide ban on the use and sale of non-essential pesticides. A public consultation was held to further inform Nova Scotians on the Government of Nova Scotia's take on the proposed ban on non-essential pesticides for lawn maintenance. We received about 1,700 responses during this consultation. We are currently reviewing the input and will be making a decision in the near future.

One of the best parts of my job as the Minister of Environment is speaking to the youth of this province. I was fortunate to meet Grade 3 students at the Green Roots Symposium. The Environmental Assessment Branch continues to interact with the industry, various interest groups, the First Nations, government departments and the general public, to ensure environmental assessments are open, transparent, accountable, and effective. The Environmental Assessment Branch also works to harmonize environmental assessments in Nova Scotia with other jurisdictions when necessary.

[10:30 a.m.]

In 2009-10, 11 projects went through environmental assessments, including the following: the Fundy Gypsum mine expansion at Miller Creek; Tufts Cove 6 waste treatment recovery project; two quarry projects; one wetland project; two wind projects; two dangerous goods projects; Highway No. 113, and a decision was announced April 9, 2010; and the Fundy Tidal Energy Demonstration Project, which involved a joint federal-provincial environmental assessment process.

Many people are interested in tidal power. On September 15^th, the Fundy Tidal Energy Demonstration Project was approved subject to strict conditions to protecting the environment. Among the conditions are that the Fundy Ocean Research Center for Energy be responsible for developing a comprehensive Environmental Effects Monitoring Program and establishing an Environmental Monitoring Advisory Committee. A device is in the water and we continue to monitor the project, through the Environmental Monitoring Advisory Committee, to ensure there is no adverse effect on the environment.

In October, government took another step towards protecting the environment and human health by introducing stricter guidelines for the land application and storage of municipal biosolids. These strict guidelines were developed from the recommendations by an independent committee of citizens, facility managers, wastewater researchers, regulators, and representatives from all levels of government. The guidelines are based on the latest bio-solid science and research.

Also, amendments were made to the Wilderness Areas Protection Act that clarify the way that wilderness areas may be accessed and used. So, Mr. Chairman, as you have seen - or as you have been hearing - a lot of work has been done and the work simply continues. During the upcoming year we are looking forward to continuing to work with our partners toward a healthy and prosperous Nova Scotia.

In conclusion, I believe that healthy-environment communities are the foundations of this province and are central to building a better life for Nova Scotians. This past year I became a grandfather for the first time. It is a turning point that brings to mind the importance of protecting our environment and working with sustainable prosperity for our province's future. It is a legacy that we all will leave for our children and for our children's children. I would like to thank you for allowing me to share with you the important role that my department plays in creating this better life for Nova Scotian families.

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to have the opportunity today to present to you this particular presentation and I am pleased at this time to take any questions. Thank you very much.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, minister. I would like to recognize questions from the Liberal caucus.

The honourable member for Dartmouth East.

MR. ANDREW YOUNGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, minister, I appreciate your opening remarks and being here today. Hopefully I'll get to the question that you want me to ask on ecoNova Scotia.

MR. BELLIVEAU: That was the kiss of death.

MR. YOUNGER: It's on the list, it's just a matter of whether we get through all the other stuff first though. The first question I want to ask you is, how long should it take for a FOIPOP request from your department, or an agency under your department, to be answered?

MR. BELLIVEAU: I would have to ask for some legal advice on that but I think you may be referring to a certain legal issue. I'm not clear on that, but I know there are certain standards and I can make the inquiry to our department.

MR. YOUNGER: Well, okay, here's the thing, I mean I don't want to be obtuse or try to be evasive on this but you probably know where I'm going with this - the RRFB - so let's be upfront about that. During Question Period the other day, you know, you suggested it was part of a legal case. I have a copy of the legal filing right here and the legal filing - I've confirmed this with a number of solicitors - has nothing to do with the FOIPOP request, it's an entirely separate matter. It does not form part of this legal case in any way, shape or form. So I'm not going to ask any questions about the legal case because I agree with you, as minister you can't and shouldn't speak to a legal case.

But there is a separate matter which is that the RRFB has refused to release the tender - the RRFB in this case - that has been awarded. A FOIPOP request has been made and Mary Kennedy, I think - yes, Mary Kennedy - of the FOIPOP Review Office has written back and said it could take over a year before they even make a ruling on it. Yet there have been a number of legal rulings in the past few months about provincial agencies and departments which have ordered the release of identical documents from other departments.

Generally speaking, I haven't found too many cases where the provincial government and its agencies have not released the successful bid document - after it has been awarded, not before. It would be inappropriate, I would suggest, to release it before but in this case construction is already underway. I don't want to get into the court case which is on a whole different issue not related to the release of this document. I'm just wondering, what can we do to get this tender document released? It's a lot of money coming from an agency under your department being spent on this.

MR. BELLIVEAU: Thank you very much for the question. Again, I think that usually ministers don't get involved in this. You've raised a question here and I'm going to make sure that our staff will get our legal counsel to look at it within our department and we'll do what we can but, to me, I think I've answered the question. That is a legal issue that's before the courts and I'm not trying to be rude, but I think I'm protecting all interests of all Nova Scotians and I think that's the right strategy. Your question has been raised here and it will be addressed internally within our department.

MR. YOUNGER: With respect to your lawyers, I think you're getting bad legal advice and the odds are we will still be on Environment estimates on Monday, so maybe they can review this before Monday evening and we can give you some time to tell us what your department found because, you know, I have the entire court filing right here, it doesn't refer to the FOIPOP request. The legal ruling doesn't request that. It's absolutely unheard of in provincial agencies and government not to make public an awarded tender.

I would point to a legal ruling recently with respect to almost the same thing. I just wish I could remember off the top of my head but it was another provincial agency recently that was ordered to - oh, do you know what it was on? It was on the broadband, there was a similar FOIPOP challenge from allnovascotia.com or The Herald, or one of the sites, looking for the release of an awarded tender. The FOIPOP review officer in the courts ruled that the government had no right to refuse the release of an awarded tender document. I will leave it there until you've talked to your department, out of respect for you, because I know we'll still be here Monday anyway. Do you think by Monday it would be possible for you to have talked with your department lawyers or staff and report back to us?

MR. BELLIVEAU: I can assure you that my message is going to be consistent. You raised the issue here and that matter is before the courts. We have documented your request and you raised that particular question and that has been identified. I'll continue to move forward.

MR. YOUNGER: You can take a second if you want to talk to them, go ahead. I don't mind giving you a minute to talk to them.

MR. BELLIVEAU: My message has not changed. We may be here again Monday but we'll leave it at that. As of now it's before the courts.

MR. YOUNGER: I'll tell you what, I hope that after discussion with staff that message might change by Monday, because certainly the most recent rulings on this issue would seem to suggest that not only should it be released - and you can have my copy of the court filing if you want and you'll see that it's not mentioned in any way, shape or form. It doesn't even form a part of the Statement of Claim of what they're seeking because they know they'll get it in disclosure so that's a moot point.

I will move on from that for now but I might be back on it on Monday, just understanding that I think that even when you look at the member for Timberlea-Prospect who is trying to - listen, I don't want to suggest that the RRFB made the wrong decision. I don't honestly know because I haven't seen it, I don't know which is the right site. But I can tell you the member for Timberlea-Prospect, who is in your Cabinet, has been at public meetings in Timberlea-Prospect trying to explain the situation and he was having a tough time, too, because the document is not out there and you can't say here's how they were evaluated. There were only two documents, two that made it to the final, so hopefully there will be a change of heart by the RRFB between now and Monday.

On the RRFB though, let's talk about something that I understand from the executive of the RRFB that you were involved in since our last go at estimates, which was the rebate paid to municipalities in terms of recycling. Now we know that - I'm not sure whether it was under your administration or the previous administration - the amount given to recycling depots was increased slightly to help them with their costs. My understanding is that municipalities had made a request to the RRFB to also have the amount rebated to them increased. I'm not sure if they thought that that would actually happen or not but they were surprised to learn that it was reduced. Now, the RRFB executive - when I say "executive" I mean executive members of the board - advised me that that was on your direction. I wonder, can you give me any advice on that?

MR. BELLIVEAU: I can tell you that in my previous life - not my working career but I guess my political career - I spent nine years on the local municipality of my hometown, so I'm familiar with that particular board. I'm also aware of the concerns that were raised. I met with a number of municipalities regarding that issue and I guess with that background, I'm very appreciative of what they're talking about. I think we're going through a stage where people's attitudes are focusing more on having a green economy and cleaner environment, and I appreciate that interest. I think we need to have an open mind and see how we can achieve some of those things.

I'm very aware of the municipality's concerns about that and the RRFB, how that functions, so I'm aware of that. But there is a lot of work that needs to be done, I guess.

MR. YOUNGER: Thank you, minister. I guess what I'm getting at, is it your view or your department's view that the amount municipalities had expected to be returned to them from the RRFB was reduced? To clarify that, that's their view, I'm just wondering whether you share their view.

MR. BELLIVEAU: My point is, I understand that they are concerned about some of the costs. I understand that, like I said, with my background. I think we have to be conscious of that when we're dealing with anything dealing with this particular issue. I guess I'm aware of that when you're making these decisions and hopefully we can move forward and address some of these over this mandate. I guess that's where I'm coming from. I don't know if I'm answering your question, but I know we have a lot of difficult decisions to make. We're going through a recession now, I guess, and to me there's - I'm very conscious of what they're requesting.

[10:45 a.m.]

MR. YOUNGER: I also, obviously, spent some time on municipal council as did the member for Halifax Chebucto - I don't know if any of the other members here did. On the one hand I would suggest that municipalities sometimes blame the province too often and that's probably a fair comment. But at the same time we have to be careful of downloading provincial costs to them. I think the impression has always been that the RRFB is intended to assist in the collection and management of refund monies from deposits on containers. Obviously, that money goes back into the system, which is municipalities and the collection depots. Are you suggesting then that you might be proposing changes to the governance model for the RRFB?

MR. BELLIVEAU: I wouldn't be going - I think I know where you're going with your question here but the funding is based on the revenue that's generated by the RRFB. It's not the decision of this minister. I guess what I'm trying to say is that with my background, I'm very aware of what some of these municipalities are going through so I think I'm sensitive to that need, I'm aware of that. So if there's anything we can incorporate in policies, I think I have kind of that understanding of where we want to go in certain directions. These are decisions that internally - the RRFB is arm's length removed from the ministers, it functions that way.

To me it's an opportunity - if we can see ways of incorporating policy that may help out municipalities, I think I'm aware and sensitive of that. I can give you a quick story here about when I was on municipal council. This was back 10 or 15 years ago. One of our councillors suggested that we needed a litter campaign and to take $30,000 out of a small municipality and put $30,000 of taxpayers' money into a litter cleanup, I questioned that. I said, why would we be spending taxpayers' money to have a litter campaign? I really struggled with that. But as I went out and did the research and talked with community groups and people, I quickly realized that people were very conscious of the environment and they wanted that program. It literally gave people a job in the early Spring when it was very clear to see what was in the ditches and on the roadsides. It was a success. It was a very successful story, and it goes on today. I never looked back.

To me, there's a very clear example of how you can take a small amount of money and you can do a lot of marvellous things with it. That litter campaign is going on as we speak, it has been improved upon. I think when you come from a municipal background and you know when you take a small amount of money and you can incorporate that into cleaning up the environment, it has a ripple effect. To me, knowing that you have an opportunity to be in this position as a minister now and knowing the question and the sensitivity that the municipalities have around some of our environmental issues, I think that has a big importance when it comes to setting policy or setting some directions. So I feel that I'm actually blessed to go through that practical living experience.

MR. YOUNGER: Yes, I would agree that happens. You said at the beginning of those comments that, you know, the RRFB is arm's length from the minister, and I agree that's sort of the intent. I guess what I'm getting at is I understand that their distributions are only - they would be based on revenue, of course, but they're set as percentages and, you know, rightly or wrongly, I am being told that when the municipalities approached the RRFB for an increase in their percentage - so let's talk percentages, I understand the revenue - that what happened is their percentage wasn't increased. I don't know how many of them actually expected it to be able to be increased but it was reduced. Two of the executive members on the RRFB tell me they were proposing to keep it flat - they also felt it couldn't be increased - but were told by the minister's office to, in fact, reduce it. I'm just trying to find out, was there communication from your office to the RRFB that that should be reduced?

MR. BELLIVEAU: Mr. Chairman, my understanding is that no such communication was directed to the office.

MR. YOUNGER: I appreciate that and I take your word for it. I would like to talk to you about the Trenton power plant, which actually was a big issue for the NDP when they were in Opposition, and I've been down to Trenton a number of times now and met with some rather upset people. You're probably familiar with this but if you're not, obviously they've had problems with outfall from the Trenton stack. They put the bag house on and the bag house isn't really working properly and Nova Scotia Power for the record does admit that they've had some challenges with that bag house operating properly and they're working on it. They also have heated water effluent going into the river there, into the bay, I guess it's sort of brackish.

Nova Scotia Power has indicated in the past week that they would be more than happy to release the monitoring results that they provide to the Department of Environment but they're not able to do that. Those would actually have to be released by the Department of Environment - that's the monitoring results for the stack but also the permit information for the heated water that is discharged into the environment. I'm just wondering - obviously you can file a FOIPOP request but, you know, why waste the FOIPOP officer's time if your department is willing to release that information - does your department have any issue with releasing that?

MR. BELLIVEAU: Mr. Chairman, my understanding is that your Party can make a formal request, there is an application that you can submit, and our staff after this particular session can assist you on that. There is an application that you can fill out and make that request.

MR. YOUNGER: Do you know how long it takes to get a response from that request by any chance - roughly? Am I going to be waiting 18 months?

MR. BELLIVEAU: Mr. Chairman, my understanding is that normally it's a few weeks, that's the normal routine.

MR. YOUNGER: That's fine, thank you. I might add that it's ironic how much paperwork there is in government, particularly the Department of Environment, which actually leads me to my next question. You know you talk about previous lives on council, but one of the things that I had pushed for on Halifax Council - and they only got partway there because I think people were scared of it going paperless as much as possible. It never happens truly paperless, but there are a lot of opportunities.

The provincial government is a huge organization, the Legislature alone goes through mountains of paper every day. What initiatives is your department working on to move to a more electronic world or more paperless?

MR. BELLIVEAU: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think I mentioned in my presentation that the technical advancement we're dealing with in our department is moving forward. I understand that paper trail that - I guess I'm dating myself here because I've grown up in that. The advancement of our technology in our department is moving into that new era. Again, we're not only doing that but we're doing things like making our buildings more efficient, and there's the automatic tracking system and how we manage our data, so there's an evolution as we speak that we're enjoying the benefits of this new technology of the era that we're living in. So I think we are adapting, as are a lot of jurisdictions across our province and across Canada.

MR. YOUNGER: Do you have any kind of working group established to work with other departments to reduce paper?

MR. BELLIVEAU: I know there is work that's going on, the actual detail in the question you're asking, but my understanding is that we're working with other departments to identify any way we can reduce our use or increase our efficiency. There is an internal committee dealing with these similar issues so yes, there is some work being done.

MR. YOUNGER: Thank you, minister. I'm glad to hear that because it strikes me that there's obvious environmental benefits but there's also, I would suggest, a cost saving, both in terms of the number of filing cabinets you need to - something as simple as the number of filing cabinets you need to store all this paper. If anybody wants any ideas they can come to my office, which is almost entirely electronic and has not a single filing cabinet because everything is stored in electronic format.

On that note, you have probably noticed - and I'm almost certain the member for Halifax Chebucto will have noticed - that if you go to a lot of government offices in metro and across the province, we don't have source separation, which is ironic because it's required by law to have that. I'm just wondering what - you always want the government to be a leader in this and certainly in HRM there's actually a bylaw, and I assume there are probably similar bylaws in other municipalities where there are provincial government offices. I believe in this very room there's a garbage bin at the back but we don't have source separation in the very offices we're in right now. I'm wondering, what's being done to address that because that's not only an environmental issue, it strikes me it's a violation of bylaws and possibly provincial laws as well?

MR. BELLIVEAU: I think you're raising some questions here about our environment, how people adapt and how they're changing attitudes. Again I reflect back on my municipal days. I can tell you, I spent nine years there and one of the top issues was how residents were going to recycle household waste. We went through that and that was a very awkward time to know that you were actually going to recommend to have three, four different containers in people's homes. People have adapted, people have changed their attitudes. I think some of these questions when you're talking about recycling, we talked about household waste for the last 10 years and people have adapted to that.

You look now as people move to the electronic waste recycling, I think that's a classic example of how society has adapted. We are very big consumers of electronic waste yet our society has adapted, and we have a program in place and there are numbers that I can make reference to. So I think it's a classic example where Nova Scotians - I think the issues you're bringing up here, we're very conscious of where we need to move and our society is adapting almost instantly to where we want to be.

I had the opportunity to go to Copenhagen, and as a small boy basically coming off the deck of a Cape Sable Island fishing boat to being Minister of Environment, it can be a little bit intimidating when you go there and you realize that you come from this small island that juts out of North America called Nova Scotia, it can be intimidating. When you see all the stuff that we just talked about here as being leaders, about recycling and our policies and stuff, we do not have to take backstage to anybody. Being there, that was very evident within 24 hours. To me that was a classic lesson that we are world leaders.

[11:00 a.m.]

We are world leaders when it comes to the environment and the things you're talking about today, we are at the front of the parade when it comes to talking about having a greener and cleaner Nova Scotia and we can be as aggressive, we can be just as proud as anyone on that world stage, and that was the message that I received when I went to Copenhagen. We were also recognized with two awards. The media have a lot of other things that they can spend their time on but again, a small province of roughly one million people, we went to Copenhagen and we were recognized with two awards. Again the lesson is there, we are world leaders and we are in front of the parade, not followers. Thank you.

MR. YOUNGER: Mr. Minister, I would agree that we're near the front of the parade, unfortunately the parade is probably about five blocks behind where it should be. Just because we're at the front doesn't mean that the world is where it should be on that. My concern is - and I would agree with you when you say the public has got on board, you can go around and you see the compost bins and it's just normal for most people. I have a three-year-old who runs around and puts paper in the recycling bin, and it won't be anything to him because that's what he has grown up with.

My concern is that government offices tend to lag behind the public on this sort of stuff. You can walk over to the Legislature, and we're supposed to be the leaders, yet there is very little in the way of source separation in this building. That's what concerns me because certainly for any building in HRM, it's a violation of municipal bylaws.

I'll give you an example. The municipally owned Fairbanks Centre last year was ticketed - which is a provincially owned building - by the municipality for failing to have source separation. Now that's just one building and it was used as an example. I think you'll agree with me that if you want - ironically the public is ahead of government offices on this and you can't expect - it's hard to walk over to the TD Bank building or the Bank of Montreal building and say to the owners of those buildings, listen, you guys should have source separation in your offices, when they can walk two floors down and go to the Department of Energy or any other department and find that they don't have source separation in the government offices, or very little of it.

What are we doing to address that issue? What are you doing to address that issue, to make sure that the government offices are compliant with what we're trying to achieve?

MR. BELLIVEAU: To your question, what are we doing, we have a green procurement committee working on this across our different government departments. Mr. Chairman, Nova Scotia is a leader in waste diversion. The province's disposal rate of 417 kilograms per person is 50 per cent lower than the Canadian average. Nova Scotia used to have hundreds of dumps, many of them were open burning pits. Today there are seven modern municipal solid-waste landfills and over 25 composting and recycling facilities. To add to this success the government has committed to reducing the disposal rate even further under the Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act, to 300 kilograms per person, by the year 2015.

The leadership has resulted in opportunities and challenges, opportunities such as local green jobs, business development, recycling cardboard, paint, electronics, composting facilities, and RRFB Nova Scotia, et cetera, and a decrease in the environmental impacts on our provincial lands, air, water, and other landfills. In the meantime, it has exported the knowledge gained from being a leader, increasing environmental awareness and individual stewardship, and have many benefits to Nova Scotia's environment and economy.

Alternatively, we have been faced with many challenges and these have broadly included increased costs for waste generators, and assistance to change our new programs was introduced to reach out to new disposable goals and address the existence of further challenges by department guidelines and to consult with stakeholders as part of the Solid Waste-Resource Management Strategy renewable process. The process is designed to maximize the opportunities and minimize the cause of destruction associated with change. Staff will bring the results of these consultations and recommendations to the senior management and Cabinet in the near future.

Mr. Chairman, I keep reflecting back to my time on municipal government but if you back up into the late 1990s, to me the story is a practical story because we live and breathe this. I can read this off the paper. In the Municipality of Barrington, we had a dump and that's what the common name was, a "dump". When you drove by it you had to pay attention because if it was foggy, the first thing you were going to do was pay attention that you didn't get a flock of seagulls in your windshield because it was just an open dump, the local collector dumped everything there.

To visualize that with the seagulls circling, I think everybody has that image. That was something like 15 years ago. To go through that exercise and when you convince society that we're going to take our money and we're going to change that regime, we're going to have recycling where we get 50 per cent of our landfill or waste that does not go directly into that landfill. To go there now, you go in and see a compound, it's very nice and clean. We have four or five people employed there. We have tractors, bulldozers, we have a scale system, we have a containment over here for wire traps.

I come from an industry where there are thousands of lobster traps and where were they going? They were going to any of the above: they could have been left at the local wharf, in illegal dump sites, literally thousands of them there now that were piled up. They have rope in another corridor, they have metals and all of this. This was on for 10 or 15 years and as you see that being very neatly piled and people going out and doing their work and saying, where are you going to get rid of 50,000 wire lobster traps? Do it, find a home for them, and they found a home for them.

China's hungry demand for steel, iron and all that stuff, all of a sudden something that was a waste became an asset. Our municipality actually got a profit from that, they got a profit from the iron, they got a profit from the wood. If you go there now, it's totally different from what it was 20 years ago. To me, I can read the scenario, but when you actually live it and you go there and you drive by it now, there are no seagulls flying into your windshield, you don't have to be concerned about that.

It's a very clean environment where the waste comes in, it is separated, there's wood, you can go there and get wood chips. If you want to have compost for your backyard garden or whatever, or the local golf courses want it, they can go there and likely buy tons of it, truckloads of it. They pay a fee and they have a heavy industrial wood chipper that comes in and all the wood is screened, the iron is cleaned out, the paper and all that stuff is sorted out; 50 per cent simply does not go into the landfill to begin with. All of the above is screened.

So it comes back to your initial question, that in the last 25 or 30 years, what you're seeing here is people's attitudes about a cleaner and greener environment are changing. Right now I think, again, Nova Scotia is leading the way and we are seeing this adapting to where we want to move.

If you fast-forward to the next five or six years you've seen where our electronic-waste recycling is a success story. You don't see that in the media or in Question Period, you're not going to see it - and I'll be brutally honest here - you're not going to see the Opposition stand up in the House and talk about a success story, you're not going to see it, or I haven't seen it in my life here. To me this is something that just flies - and I always say that we use this too much, this particular phrase, "it's on my radar", but this is not on the radar of the media or the critics talking about our success stories. One of them is our electronic-waste recovery, that is a successful program and you're not going to see that in Question Period. Again, this is why we go through this exercise and this is an opportunity to voice that. Thank you.

MR. YOUNGER: Thank you, minister. I don't disagree with you about the provincial success story and for the record, I have spoken about that, to let you know, and the media have covered that quite substantially and they cover it just about every time another country comes to visit Nova Scotia to look at our waste facilities. But that's not my question. You read a statement just now, or a document, that talked about the provincial stuff, and I don't disagree, that's my whole point. The provincial government buildings are not meeting the standards that the public is meeting.

The public is far exceeding any standards that are met within provincial government buildings, and that exactly is my point. I completely agree with you that as a province we are leaders in this. Obviously, there's still a long way we can go, but we are leaders in this and we should all be excited and thrilled for taking our part and doing that.

I've been to many of these landfill sites that you're referring to and I agree, you don't have the flocks of seagulls around. I'm sure the member for Halifax Chebucto remembers the big debates on Halifax Council when it was, how are you going to do this? Nobody believed there wouldn't be seagulls and now there are no seagulls there either, or very few. That's not my question. My question is, why are we sitting in this legislative committee room right now and I can walk out into the lobby, I can look here and see a garbage bin and there is no source separation? That's my question.

For the record, Mr. Minister, I'm not trying to blame you for this because I wouldn't suggest for a second that this is your fault personally that this hasn't happened. My question is - and arguably, my question is potentially a positive question - what are you going to do to make sure that when I walk into the Department of Energy, or for that matter when we walk into the Legislature, that there is source separation so that the public and visitors from around the world can say, look, these guys are living the legislation that they're passing? At the moment it strikes me that municipalities and the province pass all this great legislation requiring the public to meet certain requirements that, as government politicians and bureaucrats, we're not willing or able to live ourselves and that's what bothers me.

I can walk into the Transportation Department's building over in Burnside, just beside my riding, where the snowplow guys - and those are hard-working guys and women over there and I don't deny it for a second, but there's barely a recycling bin in there, there isn't a compost bin there and they barely have any separation of anything. It's not because they don't want to do it, it's because somebody, somewhere, has not ensured that all these facilities make this happen.

I'll give you one other example and then I'll let you answer: schools - provincial schools. Until just a few months ago, Prince Andrew High School in my riding had source separation in the classroom. Great, source separation, and then they went and dumped it all in one garbage bin in the back because they couldn't afford to pay for all the bins. They had the recycling bin, the compost bin, the whole gambit sitting in every classroom, and then every night the caretakers would come around and dump it into the only bin they had in the back. That's a problem. If any resident did that, they would get either a bright orange sticker on their garbage or on their compost bin, or they would get a visit from a compliance officer.

All I want to know is - I'm not asking why it hasn't happened, because you've only been the minister for 10 months - I'm asking you, what are you going to do to solve the problem?

MR. BELLIVEAU: To the member opposite, I guess first of all I want to assure you that the question you raise is being addressed. I need to invite you to come to the Department of Environment to see our collection system. We have a collection system there that has been developed or designed by the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design, and I invite you to come there. You're very observant in your approach to coming into this building because I don't usually go in and look to see what's actually there to collect our waste.

[11:15 a.m.]

I appreciate your question. I can assure you our department is working on this, to have these particular devices incorporated throughout our other departments across government. I encourage you to visit our office and you'll see the different collection systems.

I think your question goes back to what I talked about, that over the last 10 or 15 years, the attitude of how we are evolving. In some places it's not as fast-paced. You talk about the schools; to me, there's the place that we need to give these messages. My commercial background is as a fisherman, but as a municipal politician I went to the clean-beach sweep day with the local schools, the elementary schools. I observed that they literally picked up tons the first year they had this. To know that we actually changed the fishermen's attitudes, incorporating them having catchment containers at the wharf.

If you back up - I gave you the vision about the dumps 20 years ago, with the gulls circling the area - 25 years ago you wouldn't see very many containers for garbage or waste stream at the local wharf. You can go there now and you have commercial containers for used oil that's being recycled. You have containers for plastic and all the cardboard that the industry uses. Those containers that you observe today coming in here, I think is going to be changed. The attitudes and this kind of a gradual evolution is sweeping across our province.

Again, I point back to our minister who came off the deck of a lobster boat, from a small fishing community, going to Copenhagen and just the sense of how that can be intimidating. When you see and you know the stories we're discussing here today, we don't have to be intimidated. We can go on the stage with the world, the different countries that are there, and we can be proud of the accomplishments that we have done. The evidence is there. All these stories that we can go into great length about how we have changed our approach in protecting the environment, I can go into great lengths about these success stories. They are success stories.

Do we debate them every day in the House? No, we don't. But I think this is evidence that we are leaders and we'll continue to lead because I think the atmosphere is right and we are on the right course. Thank you.

MR. YOUNGER: Thank you, minister. Hopefully when we get to estimates next year we'll be seeing more of these - I will come see the ones in the Environment Department but maybe we could get some more made by the good folks down there at the college and get them distributed around.

Related to that, you talked about the Sustainable Procurement Policy, which I certainly applaud the government for moving forward on and I hope to see that improved on. One of the things that I wanted to ask about with respect to that is procurement as it relates to new buildings and particularly leased space. It strikes me that when we tender for new schools and so forth it seems that most of those are coming out with requirements to meet LEED Silver or better standards, or the equivalent. Frankly it doesn't much matter to me whether you actually have the stamp on it that says "LEED" or whether it just meets the standards.

I'm not yet seeing the same sort of thing for leased space in terms of those requirements. For example, the Alcohol and Gaming Authority recently had a tender out for a few hundred thousand square feet, I think it was. They've now moved to Windmill Road but there was no requirement in that tender to meet certain environmental standards. Maybe there's not enough space to make it a requirement but certainly if it's going by RRFB, which most of them seem to be, points can be awarded for that and I'm wondering what plans your department has.

I realize the procurement is done by the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, but I'm wondering what you were doing with them to try to encourage them to move ahead, to ensure that the leased space is efficient as possible. Obviously, the Minister of Finance talks a lot about saving money and there's not only an environmental savings but there's a significant cost savings as well.

MR. BELLIVEAU: The latter part of your question, the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal is responsible for that particular topic. You keep talking about the bins. The bins are on the government procurement lists and I think that all departments - I think you're going to have everybody here in the next 24 hours looking at the collection bins. I haven't been invited to your caucus office either.

MR. YOUNGER: Ours is just as bad so don't worry.

MR. BELLIVEAU: Seriously, you're raising a point here and I think that you can sense our department is a leader in that and we are aware of that, but it's a good opportunity to raise this. All departments are aware that our procurement office has those particular containers on their list.

MR. YOUNGER: I'll be totally upfront, we have semi-source collection, is what I would say, in our caucus office. We do actually have a compost bin, although it's one for a whole floor and that's my point. That's why I say, I certainly don't blame you for it. So I'm going to be watching that - it would be great that in 24 hours all of a sudden these things appear, that would be amazing, although I'm not expecting that to happen. At least for people to notice them, that would be good.

A lot of these things do cross departments but when I look at biodiesel, for example, you have relatively high emission - there's a huge problem, in my view, on biodiesel in North America because a lot of it is coming from canola crops and other ones, which tend to use more water and it gets into food stock. In Nova Scotia, you talk about success stories, and one of the success stories that seems to never make the National Geographic articles about biodiesel is the fact that the majority, if not all, of ours comes from waste product in Nova Scotia, fish waste primarily, which obviously would have special interest for you because it's a product that's not going into landfills. Obviously there has been some success with that with transit, for its use in transit.

I'm wondering whether you're looking at requiring that provincially owned vehicles, which obviously run on diesel, make use of that biodiesel as well. The reason that I ask is because there is an economy of scale on this issue and the municipalities that have been using biodiesel have found that if they tender for enough quantities they can get it at the same price as regular diesel. Wilson Fuel and Ocean Nutrition, two of the ones that are most involved - which is great because they're Nova Scotia companies - have indicated that they could probably sell biodiesel at the pump, which means that folks driving diesel vehicles could use it, as well, if there was enough demand.

The provincial government obviously runs enough vehicles on diesel, as do municipalities, that they could probably create that ongoing demand that would then allow the public to access that which then has the benefit, of course, of reducing greenhouse gas emissions. I'm just wondering, has that been looked at by your department or are you looking at moving in that direction at all?

MR. BELLIVEAU: Mr. Chairman, again, that is the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal and that's something that I guess is in a test mode. They're dealing with using that in some of their buildings and the results are not in yet, but you raise an interesting question. Again, I'm very conscious of the commercial use of fuels and actually the high cost for some of my closest friends who have trucking companies, who travel from Nova Scotia to Florida, and I can tell you that if you can come up with a mechanism that created a 30 per cent reduction in their fuel consumption, you would almost be looked at in a spiritual manner, and I think that's something that we all need to focus on.

There is work being done that's being led by our Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, but it's something that I'm very conscious of and I think we all need to be aware of how we can be more efficient, especially when it comes to fuel. I know first-hand the cost for our fishing industry and the struggle that they're dealing with in the last four or five years with the high cost of fuel. So, yes, I'm aware of that and I think we all would lean in that direction that if we could come up with a gadget that would have more effect, I think we all can appreciate that. I do think the technology is moving in that direction, and hopefully with our promotion of renewable energy there will be less demand on our fossil fuels.

MR. YOUNGER: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to move on to something else. In your opening remarks you talked about land and you talked about protected areas and that sort of thing. You said, if I heard you correctly, that you felt very confident we will make it to the 12 per cent number by the 2015 target. Yet the other day Minister MacDonell said that he wasn't sure we could make it there and that it would be a very tough uphill battle to get there. There seem to be two slightly different messages from two ministers and I'm just wondering, do you have any thoughts on that?

MR. BELLIVEAU: I know when you have two ministers, I guess it depends on who you ask the question, whether you're going up the hill or you're going down the hill but, seriously, I think to reach some of these goals is challenging but I do think that we've set a track that with the information we have now, the advice that we have, we are on track. The province has acquired over 142,000 acres of land this year and, you know, this is very high-valued conservation land and it will simply help us reach that 12 per cent land protection by 2015.

I think, in fairness, what you're talking about here is you may have a difference of opinion, you know, and I know that some of these challenges within EGSPA are going to be a struggle. At times you're going to achieve some at more of a - it's like running a race. There are going to be people who hopefully get to go quicker than others but we're all going to get to the goal line and, to me, I think that's the main objective here.

MR. YOUNGER: Mr. Chairman, I guess it depends on how optimistic the minister is and it's that glass-half-full/glass-half-empty thing. Here's something that has troubled me about this, and I'm interested in your thoughts. I read about the potential inclusion of Sable Island, for example, in that and, you know, in my view, just in Nova Scotia - and Sable Island is protected now, and I don't oppose the idea of further protection or designations but I read a statement by - I can't remember who now - somebody from the NDP caucus at the time saying this would help us achieve - it might have even been a communications person - the 12 per cent goal. To my mind that's not adding protected land because it's already protected land and to me, if we're going to increase the amount of protected land in Nova Scotia, it should be new land that the public doesn't already see as protected.

For example, when you buy land from the forestry company or J.D. Irving, that's obviously new land that comes into the portfolio owned by the people of Nova Scotia. Well, Sable Island is already owned by the people of Nova Scotia and the people of Canada so I have a little bit of difficulty in considering that as an increase in the land that is suddenly protected. Likewise if you take a parcel owned by the Province of Nova Scotia and just put a designation on it, I think the designation may very well be important. If you take a chunk of forest and say we're going to call this protected land, that's fine, I have no problem with changing the designation to protect it better but I don't see that as suddenly in the staple of publicly owned lands because it was always in the staple. I'm just wondering how that number is being massaged and calculated.

[11:30 a.m.]

MR. BELLIVEAU: Sable Island, I think it has kind of a special place in a lot of people's hearts across Nova Scotia, including myself. To me, my understanding is that the legal interpretation has to be identified. I know for the federal minister, one of his special priorities is to identify this particular area. I think there is a consultation process and, again, we're raising some questions here that the public wants to be involved in and have that opportunity. To me, it's a unique piece of land because you want to protect it, yet you only want the very limited amount of people to have access to it because of the vulnerability of that particular area.

Again, I think that we go through this exercise of finding the right legal title for that particular area and, again, we're going through protecting these lands that the overall land mass is going to be 12 per cent. Again, my finishing remarks in the presentation, protecting lands and the things that we're doing in the environment, all the things that we talked about earlier are actually not about us, they are about our children's children. I think that's going to be a very good legacy to leave for our next generations and to have the opportunity, like the questions you're raising here, to make sure that we get that right and to identify those particular valuable land areas.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The member's time has just about concluded - perhaps one very quick question and a quicker answer.

MR. YOUNGER: I don't know if that's possible for either one of us. (Laughter) I'll let the member from the Tory caucus go since I probably have 30 seconds anyway, because I'll pick it up again right after him anyway.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The time is 11:34 a.m. and we have one hour allocated to the Progressive Conservative caucus.

The honourable member for Hants West.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll start, minister, by saying thanks for giving us the opportunity to ask a few questions. Mine are going to be very brief, I'm not going to take a lot of your time this morning at all. As a matter of fact, I'll pass the time back to my Liberal colleague, if he so desires, when I'm finished, mostly because my throat may make it through what I have to say and it may not. So I apologize in advance for any trouble you may have hearing me.

One of the main things I do want to say is that I think the department is doing a good job, I think that goals have been set. People often look to the minister to take on that responsibility or credit for the things that are being done, but I think we know that there are many people who work within that department, who help bring that all together and have through previous governments over the years, as we continue to move forward with programs that are good for Nova Scotia.

We certainly are leaders and you need only travel a short distance within this country and around the United States to see just what's not being done, the simple things that we - actually, very simple things such as recycling programs and the like that are very, very good programs in this province that, surprisingly, others do not have, even this far along in 2010. I agree, I think that we are leaders in many, many areas and I know the department and the staff, and yourself as minister and those who will come after you, will continue to work on this particular portfolio. Environment is probably number one in people's minds these days, next to health care and education, it's right up there.

The other thing people are learning is regardless of what they're doing, whether they're building homes and digging ditches or whatever they're doing, they realize they have to contact Environment. They see you as probably the most powerful unit in government, more so than anyone else, at least in rural Nova Scotia that's the perception. The calls I get about environmental issues are generally along those types of things I just mentioned. They all require this permit or that permit and although it frustrates them, we try to deliver it - at least I do - in a positive way that it's probably a good thing that we're doing some of these things and not just allowing holes to be filled with garbage and then burying it over and so on and so forth.

We're very pleased to have what we have in this province. As someone who has children, I'm certainly looking forward to ongoing and continued improvements in the years ahead. I think that's important for all of us.

On that, I want to go to something that I raised earlier this week in the House which was the biosolids issue. Minister, I know you made a ministerial statement and there were responses and my response was mostly centred around - not that there was great disagreement, I think, with what's totally going on, but more so some of the consultation I raised in my statement as well. I raised a piece about the scientists or the experts, we have all kinds of experts in all of these areas and some days it seems like we're all experts - everybody has an opinion, I guess is what I'm getting to. Those who are specifically trained and credentialed certainly have great credit, and I'm not discrediting them in any way.

But someone equally trained may have a totally different opinion and that's what gets us in this whole biosolids mess, I guess, for lack of a better term, and that is the issue of the treatment of these solids. Not so much that it's going on the farm property - even a petition that I tabled with a few names on it clearly stated it wasn't the issue of just the human waste part being treated and going onto the soil for farm use, that wouldn't be the biggest issue. They're more concerned about the other things that end up in it with the everyday sewage and sludge, or whatever we're calling it, going for treatment and not confident that it's being separated - again, for lack of a better term - or treated appropriately before it is mixed and sent to the farms. The other issue with it is the metals and all those things that go in from the cement piece, the additives that go in to make this what it is before it's spread on the farmers' fields.

I guess I'm wondering a couple of things about that, minister. Do you plan on doing any future consultation at all with not only the farm community, but there are a number of environmental groups, as you and I are both aware, that have existed for years and are growing at a rapid pace and as more of these kinds of things come out, the more they seem to pop up. I guess, rightfully so, they're entitled to ask questions and are concerned about the future, as well, and in most ways tend to show support for the environmental issues and want to make sure we continue to improve on what it is we're doing.

This is a bit of a sticky one when you think about what we're doing. But the consultative process is what has been raised with me. Are we planning to go out and talk to folks? Farmers are scientists and the more I got into the agriculture piece of things, the more you learn there's a great science to growing anything. The soil, the conditions, the weather, whatever, all of it, it's a great science.

I look at those farmers, some of them certainly long-term, being the experts probably more than anybody. They do know what is best for the soil and the how-tos in all of these areas. For those of us who aren't farmers, for those who have the questions for - I think it was Mr. Morton, perhaps, who tabled a petition in the House with 2,800 names from Kings County or the local area. That's concerning, obviously, or at least I think that would be concerning to you as minister and to the folks in your department. Perhaps it isn't and you could enlighten me on that, as well, if you wish but, again, I'll start with that consultative piece.

MR. BELLIVEAU: Thank you very much to the member opposite, and I do really want to stop here first of all. I appreciate your opening comments about the good job and, again, public recognition of our staff in the department and all the work they do. I'll also take the opportunity to know that I actually was following in the footsteps of the previous minister and I recognized some of the work that he did on identifying the Ship Harbour Long Lake protected area. So this has been an ongoing kind of passing of the torch, from one particular Party to another actually, and I recognize that.

To me, your question about the biosolids and, again, the engagement that we had, we had an opportunity - and you presented a petition in the House a few days ago and, to me, I was actually encouraged by that engagement of having - and I recognize there were other petitions, too, but to me there was an opportunity to have those engagements with the public, to get media attention. To me, if I could just put one little image out there, if we have an image of biosolids and if you just snap a picture there of the public - and I think that is the issue - this misconception about what is being applied on our lands. If my instinct is correct, the general public may have this vision of basically sludge that is not treated being applied on our lands, and I think the presentation that we made was well crafted and we went into great details about how it is not that image.

The image is that we take a by-product of waste sludge, it goes through a very rigorous, extensive treatment and the bacteria, all those materials are removed, and the scientists - I was impressed when we had a soil scientist in that day who was basically saying that this meets the strictest standards across Canada. We have other jurisdictions throughout North America or across Canada that apply this so when you step up to the microphone in the media interviews, I'm very confident that this is the image I see and this is with the strict conditions that we have, that's the image I see.

Now, the problem with the public is that - if I can just back up and take you to that image that the local public has of perhaps this untreated waste sludge, there's the issue. The issue is of getting this educational, factual information out there and getting that to the residents and the people across Nova Scotia. By having an open discussion like this - and I appreciate you raising the question because, again, it gives another opportunity to get that factual information out there, and the science backs it up. I think this is what needs to be done so that people have a better understanding of what we are doing here. I thank you for the question.

MR. PORTER: Thank you, minister, for that and just a couple of things on some of your comments. One, you talked about picking up where the previous minister left off and mentioned Parties. In my opinion, running the province really is a non-partisan issue, I guess, if you will. Certainly the environment is a non-partisan issue, this has to continue to move forward, and there are other areas that I agree are the same.

The education piece is a huge piece, it always is. This is one that I don't think has reached its peak, from what I hear, and I see people aren't happy with what has been done on the education side. There hadn't been a whole lot of discussion about it and your statement in the House certainly raised it again. There has been some - I mean I know this just didn't start yesterday either, this has been going on for a couple of years or something.

So just on that, it is being done, you went into some detail in your statement about how it's treated, the scientific process. Is there a monitoring time frame? Are you monitoring through the scientific methods of both your experts and the farmers who are using it, minister, monthly? I don't know what the time frame might be but is there monitoring to see if it is making changes that people are concerned about in the soil, whether it's the metallic levels or - I'm not familiar with all the terms right off the top of my head today but there were a number of concerns that were raised. Are those concerns being measured in some way over a period of time?

MR. BELLIVEAU: Again, I just want to read a portion of my opening statement. Our government continues to co-lead a national biosolids committee on the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment, which is working to establish the consistent national approach to biosolid management. This management has been reviewed so closely here, Mr. Chairman, that I think the national committee would be wise to follow Nova Scotia's lead on biosolid management. We are leading the way in responsible, science-based management of this material. When stricter biosolid guidelines were developed through extensive consultation, they were developed from recommendations by an independent committee of citizens, facility managers, wastewater researchers, regulators and representatives from all levels of government.

[11:45 a.m.]

That was a couple of paragraphs from a ministerial statement several days ago. Again, I think that this engagement of getting that information out there, to me I think the public is aware of this issue now and I'm sure that the member, you have been contacted by some of your constituents across your constituency and again, to me, this is a good opportunity that we can have to bring out this information. Nova Scotia requires a higher standard of biosolid testing in Canada, and biosolid use in our province must be tested and must meet strict standards for nutrients, metals, and other components. In fact, our government has added several more components to the list of these things that must be tested.

So when you get all of that factual information out there, that scientific information, again the confidence in a product, you're very secure when you step up to that microphone. To me it comes back to, we need to get that image - and there's the question. The public may have this image of something of a sludge material that is actually being applied, which is the furthest from reality.

The reality is that we've taken a waste product and we have treated that and we have changed that. We have changed that whole complex material and changed it into a new, improved product that's friendlier to the environment, and we've actually improved it and created a healthier environment by doing it. To me that's the whole story captured within that image. If my instinct is correct, then we need to have more of this engagement, more of this discussion and the more we do, the more we'll convince people that we are on the right path. Thank you.

MR. PORTER: Thank you for that answer. You talked about the testing and you went through that, but I guess my question was, I asked you about the monitoring piece, minister, after it has been applied to the ground. Is there some kind of monitoring measurement that's going on over a period of time to say exactly what you're saying, defending what you're saying, minister, and what your experts and scientists are saying through the testing period that, in fact, none of this does happen?

There's an argument out there right now, there's a concern that the following will happen, as you are well aware, that different things will go into the land that shouldn't go in, that there's still stuff left in this by-product that's being applied. So my question is, over the long term or periods of time, is there testing being done to measure? Again, I know that this didn't just start yesterday, this has been going on a while. Are we measuring this once it's applied to the ground and goes through a season, and the tilling and the growing and so on, and the application of certain sprays and all of these things that go along with farming, is it being measured to see that there are no changes in this particular product versus what would normally be used by way of a fertilizer and/or the other types of manure fertilizers that we know are very much used, and have been for centuries, on our farmland?

MR. BELLIVEAU: Thank you very much. Again, it's my understanding that it's not up to our department to do the monitoring of the fields, but that's something that the farmers may want to get into with other regulatory departments. It's something that we are not doing at present.

MR. PORTER: Thank you, minister. Let's talk a bit about your perception and what your instinct is. I agree with you, I think you're right, this picture in people's minds when we talk about human waste going anywhere other than a sewage treatment plant and whatever, where it should go, that's what's being applied. I think you've clearly stated that's not, in fact, what's being applied. It's important that people have the correct vision - picture, if you will - in their minds of what is exactly going on but within that, those who do understand the process, that they address - again, there are these things, I would think, that a department as powerful and as important as the Department of Environment, and what that means and what it could mean to the future success of this province, that we would be monitoring such a controversial type of product now being used.

Again, we're leaders, we both agree here, and many will agree that this province does lead the way. Something that we've often heard in the world of technology is that you like to be on the leading edge, not the bleeding edge. People would think in this situation, perhaps, that this kind of product may be on the bleeding edge because we're not monitoring it, we're not measuring it.

I would think and I would hope, minister, that you would give some consideration - whether it's through yourself, your department, the Department of Agriculture, a regulatory body - to some future measuring and monitoring. I think that would probably help with the comfort levels of many who are concerned about this sort of thing.

I would think that the farmers are probably measuring. They know their pH levels and whatever it is they measure, and all these different scientific facts that they use for growing, I'm certain they're measuring it. The data is probably there in some way, or it wouldn't be difficult to get, to look at it over the course of time to see if it is, in fact, actually changing anything. Maybe it's improving it, maybe it's just doing the status quo. But the answer to the real final piece of this - how do you know if you're not measuring it? - you don't know the answer to anything, regardless of what it is, if you're not taking some sort of quantifiable measurement to say this is a good product, this does work.

We know there's a huge cost in it, a difference between that and the other products that they have to buy to fertilize the land. I think if we can save the agriculture industry and farmers money by using a product that is good and safe for the land, that's great, it's good for the farmers.

I'm not saying that I'm against the product, I'm saying that I don't think people know enough about it and that we need to be sure, again, even the measurement, to say you're doing the testing. Just to clarify, that testing is coming out of the plant prior to it going to the farmers' properties. Are these things being published anywhere, minister? Is there a thought that this now being in the public eye - your instinct, again, is correct, the educational piece is part of that. Is there a thought then, perhaps, that some of the processes, the testing, the results of such things, the amount being used and so on, could be put on-line or something, or published? People could click on the Department of Environment, click on biosolids, and see all there is to know about this process: this is what happens, this is the measurement, this is how much is going out in Nova Scotia annually by way of tonnage, or however it's measured. Has any thought been given to that in your department, sir?

MR. BELLIVEAU: To the member opposite, my understanding is that the environmental plant publishes that information, results are available. Basically our jurisdiction stops at the plant, which makes sure that the testing is done. I assure you that it meets the highest, strictest standards. I also understand that the nutrient management plan has to be incorporated into the farmer's business plan, which is overseen by Agriculture, so there are a lot of guidelines and the regulations are in place. Again, I think by having this engagement, having this discussion, that the public will have an opportunity to see that there are safeguards, there are strict guidelines being implemented, being followed.

The previous speaker talked about his observation and his curiosity about walking into a building and observing the collection waste cans. To me, when I go to get my local food supply for the next two or three days, I love going by the produce corner and picking up a few vegetables or fruits and we're always confronted with that little sticker. I know that we may not have the fruits and stuff available here in Nova Scotia so again my instinct says, well, that may come from another jurisdiction and the sticker identifies that from all over the world, literally.

I guess my story here is that when you understand that and my question is, in my mind, is that we have all these nice products in front of us and they come from all other jurisdictions and when you step up to that microphone and say that we have the strictest guidelines in the world, to me, there's the lightbulb moment. I'm confident that our products, our things that we apply, our biosolids that we apply to our land applications, meet the strictest requirements in the world. To me, there is the confidence, and we are importing a lot of our products in our stores and stuff that have standards and we don't challenge them. We've asked the questions so that our products are safe for our consumers and when it comes to biosolids, again, we have those strict guidelines, we're meeting them, and that information needs to be out to our consumers to win their confidence.

MR. PORTER: Thank you, minister. I want to go on to a little bit about the same type of material in co-gen plants. Are we using any of that in co-generation type facilities right now?

MR. BELLIVEAU: No, we're not.

MR. PORTER: I'm going to assume here - and you can correct me if I'm wrong - that yourself and department folks are aware that this is a potential down the road?

MR. BELLIVEAU: My understanding is that any organic material can be used, but there is a review that has to be in process and that review would be required to see what emissions would be subject to that approval.

MR. PORTER: Just clarifying, there's nothing presently being worked on by way of regulations or rules that would say that if Minas Basin, for example, which is working toward a co-gen plan for alternative energy sources, wanted to come to you and say, we want to take all the sludge off your hands that we can and process it, and we're going to do it safely so it's not going out anywhere else, has any of that discussion been had, thought of, put forward, any ideas?

MR. BELLIVEAU: The answer is no. If there are any changes, that's something that would have to be brought forward subject for a review.

MR. PORTER: Thank you, minister. I think probably, given that my throat has just about had all it can take, I'm going to say I appreciate your time today, and throughout the couple of days that you're going to be here, to have the opportunity to ask questions. Again, I do want to commend the staff that are working every day and helping put things together and moving forward with great programs that have been started over the course of a number of years and seeing them through and I look forward to many more. I'm sure I'll have more questions for you at a later date, but thanks again.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I'll pass my time back to Mr. Younger.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We have had about 26 minutes of that hour used, so you have the remaining portion of it.

The honourable member for Dartmouth East.

MR. YOUNGER: Mr. Chairman, just for administrative purposes, my understanding is I think I'm going to go until about 12:40 p.m. or so, and then the minister is going to wrap up so that we can start - and I'm going to go to the House at that time for the other things that are going on at the same time and the minister will be able to do his closing remarks today, which will allow him to begin Fisheries on Monday. That's my understanding of what we're going to try to accomplish.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think we are to use the time until 1:25 p.m., so there may be some questions from . . .

MR. YOUNGER: I think the minister's closing remarks are about 45 minutes, which is why I was going to try to wrap my questioning up at about 12:40 p.m., to allow . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. I didn't realize the minister was going to be that long-winded in closing, so I apologize. (Laughter)

MR. YOUNGER: The minister is not capable of short answers to questions, learned from long fishing trips off Shelburne.

Mr. Minister, maybe I will just follow up on the previous member's comments on biosolids and I don't want to repeat all the things he said. One of things that troubles me on the biosolids side is actually not the application of biosolids but it's the amount of misinformation that's out there.

[12:00 noon]

I read a letter to the editor in the paper the other day that actually entirely misrepresented - not from your department - the process that HRM uses, whether that process is good or bad is a whole debate, but one of the biggest challenges seems to be that people have inaccurate information about the process being used to treat those biosolids. For example, the letter in question suggested - and I'm going to do this by memory - in the last paragraph it talked about all they do is mix it half and half with heated kiln dust, and that's all there is to it. Of course, I think we all know that first it's treated in Halifax with ultraviolet radiation and then it goes through a heating process and then it's not even a half and half mix, it's - and that's not to take away the potential that there could be issues with it.

My point, and I guess the question I just wanted to raise with you is, in light of your ministerial statement the other day, what is your department doing to try to ensure that the debate - and the quite legitimate debate in my view - on the use of biosolids is based on as much accurate information about the process as possible?

MR. BELLIVEAU: I mentioned earlier - and I can go into great detail - there is some additional information that's going to be presented on our Web site. Again, without repeating myself - but I surely could do that - I think there has been a lot of extensive work. There has been a committee working on this, there have been extensive consultations, there has been a committee of citizens, facility managers, wastewater researchers and regulators, and representatives from all levels of government who have been working on this particular issue.

To me it's this perception that we talked about earlier with the member from the other Party, the perception of what the public has made out this and feels it's a waste product that's actually going on the application on the land, which is a far cry from actually this improved product that's being applied. I think that is the challenge of making sure we get this information out there. Again, I give you the example that Nova Scotia has one of the strictest guidelines and is actually improving the environment with the application of this product.

To me the evidence is very clear, the science is strong and I think that when all of the information is put forward to the public of Nova Scotia, they'll understand the decision that we made on this. Thank you.

MR. YOUNGER: Thank you, minister. I'm glad to hear that you're going to try to get some information on-line. I don't disagree with the science, it appears to be very good. I chaired for a number of years the municipal Harbour Solutions Advisory Committee. I have some knowledge of the process and have toured the plants.

There are a lot of people who still remember what happened in Truro with the land application of effectively raw biosolids and see this as the same thing. Last week we heard that Loblaw - I think Sobeys as well - is not going to purchase produce from farmers who use land-applied biosolids from municipal sources. The intriguing thing to me about that decision - they're a private company, they can kind of do what they want as far as I'm concerned, but what bothers me about it is in speaking with their executive in Ontario, we're still going to see produce here from Ontario and the States and from South America and they use land-applied biosolids. It seems they have singled out Nova Scotia produce, and I would argue the research would show that there's a far higher percentage of produce in the U.S. and Ontario that uses land-applied biosolids as part of the farming regime than there is in Nova Scotia at this point.

Yet now we're going to see potentially a greater percentage of out-of-province produce in Sobeys and Loblaw stores which will use the exact same biosolids, but instead of coming from Halifax or another Nova Scotian municipality, it will come from Toronto or Waterloo or somewhere else like that. I'm just wondering, is your department having any conversations with Sobeys and Loblaw and these companies that may be making announcements based on media reports, but that actually will have a negative effect on Nova Scotians and no practical effect on the produce and what it's grown in.

MR. BELLIVEAU: Again, I think the question that you're presenting here today is about a - I think you answered your own question. They are private companies. Our role here is to make sure this product is safe.

MR. YOUNGER: I just wanted to know if you were going to call them and just say, listen, could we have a discussion about it?

MR. BELLIVEAU: I think, to respond to the question, these are private companies that make business decisions to incorporate their policies and how they want to attract customers to their business. I think we need to respect that. Like I said, our role is making sure this product is safe and that it meets the strictest standards, and we achieved that. I think we have to separate them, that's where it's at. Thank you.

MR. YOUNGER: You heard me say, I agree, they're a private company and will make their own decisions, but don't you think it's your responsibility as a representative of the people of Nova Scotia to advocate for the people of Nova Scotia? They may still stay with the same policy, but don't you think it makes sense for you to call up Galen Weston and say, listen, I just want to make sure you have all the facts - and if you do, that's fine - to make sure he understands exactly the things you're telling us today?

MR. BELLIVEAU: Again, I think the indirect communication is we're working with the Federation of Agriculture here and I'm sure that the federation is dealing with those particular clients out there, the business people. I'm sure that message is coming through them indirectly. There are some communications going on, but it's not the lines that you're inquiring about.

MR. YOUNGER: Just for the record, I'd like to see you just pick up the phone or send them a letter. I think that would help.

I'd like to briefly talk about Georges Bank. I don't think it would be an understatement to say that you have expressed concerns in the past about the potential for drilling on Georges Bank. I think you may very well understand the issues that fishermen have better than anybody in the Legislature, except maybe the member for Digby-Annapolis. I think you probably both understand it from the fishermen's side equally as well. Yet it seems that the statements and comments that have been made in Opposition seem more nuanced now that you're the minister and I'm just wondering, what is your position on drilling on Georges Bank from an environmental point of view?

MR. BELLIVEAU: Well, you asked a question of the Minister of Environment and it's interesting, I guess I'll confront it head-on here because I've been asked this question - not the question about Georges Bank but about the possibility of a minister having two portfolios, one being Environment and one being Fisheries and Aquaculture. I actually feel that they are dovetailed, they actually go together; if you want to have a healthy environment you'll have a strong fishery, and if you have a healthy, strong fishery you'll have a good environment.

The question about Georges Bank, that has been a very - it goes back a long time, and I appreciate your comments regarding me, comparing me with the member for Digby-Annapolis, I appreciate that kind of a comparison. Georges Bank is a unique area and it's one of the special places, I think, in the world. In my previous critic world I recognized that and I continue to take that message, that same importance of that sensitive area, of that special breeding ground for the zooplankton right up to the large whales, that message has been conveyed through my role as a critic, as Fisheries Minister, and as Environment Minister.

I'm also aware that there is the moratorium in place for 2012. There has to be a decision made by the Minister of Energy by June 1^st of this year. There has been some consultation that's going out and needing to be done, and if the member for Digby-Annapolis were here, I think he would agree with me that over the last 20 years there has been an evolution of technology, that we can see advances in the wheelhouses of every fishing boat over the last 20 years. There has been advancement in technology when it comes to our energy technology when they're pursuing drilling and that technology.

I think our position is that we need that opportunity to go out and gather that information. We need to have the opportunity to make an informed decision and that opportunity is approaching. A decision has to be made by June 1^st of this year and I take the opportunity to reflect - and I'm privileged to be in a position where I can take my concerns and the concerns of coastal communities across Nova Scotia and also, in fairness, know that since the decision was made on Georges Bank, there has been an evolution of our technology. I think we need an opportunity to evaluate that and by June 1^st that decision will be made by the Minister of Energy. I look forward to being engaged and having an opportunity to express that interest at that time.

MR. YOUNGER: So that's about six weeks from now that the Minister of Energy has to make that decision. By this point I know - obviously, he has probably seen a lot more information than you because he's the one who ultimately has to make that decision, and I respect that. Do you feel that the advances in technology, both on the fishing side and the energy side, are sufficient that if the Minister of Energy decides that drilling on Georges Bank should be allowed, or initial exploration, that you're satisfied the chances of a spill or accident there is sufficiently lessened?

MR. BELLIVEAU: You're asking a question that I can assure you what I'm trying to frame here is the fairness to our government where the clock is ticking on the moratorium of 2012, there has to be a decision made by the provincial government by June 1, 2010. There has been consultation going on to look at the technology and advancement since the previous decision was made.

I think that our society will appreciate that we take the opportunity to evaluate that information and make the right, informed decision. To me, the appreciation of Georges Bank, the uniqueness of that, noting the tidal flows around there, in my opinion, is still as strong as ever about the importance of that area. I'm also well aware of the decision by the United States, by the president there, and I think they share and reflect that.

We live in a society where we have the opportunity to engage and gather all that information and that's the process that will be made. I'm confident that our government has dealt with difficult issues in the past and you're familiar with them. I'm confident that this is another example of gathering the information, evaluating and making the right decision on behalf of all Nova Scotians.

[12:15 p.m.]

MR. YOUNGER: Staying on the ocean side of things, you talked about tidal in your opening remarks. Of course, one of the disappointments is - and it's not your fault, this stuff happens - I guess they're not getting any data from the tidal turbine. Ironically, it sounds like there's a modem or a rotor down there that isn't working. In your view, what is the status on that project, given that we can't get the information that maybe we need to be monitoring this as appropriately as we would like?

MR. BELLIVEAU: You raise a question about collecting data that has basically been - my understanding is the preliminary data was severed after the first month of the application in the Bay of Fundy. To me, I think there's a lot of information that's being gathered, although it may not have the technical information that we would like to have, a computer printout, and I'm not too familiar with what data or information is coming from that. I also have a very practical understanding of the Bay of Fundy and I know that there is information that's going to be gathered.

I point you back to one of our earlier references to the Wright Brothers. When they took the airplane off the tarmac for the very first time they probably did not get all of the information in the initial few months. I think this is a prime example, there have been opportunities for tidal research over the last 200 years. I think we are on the eve of harnessing one of the most natural sources of renewable energy in the world and I'm very familiar with the energy that's in that Bay of Fundy. I'm confident that these glitches will be resolved and there will be a lot of valuable information that's going to be gathered from restoring some of that technical data that they need to retrieve.

I think the overall performance is that in the initial pilot project the announcement was that this is a three-year project. We're not going to solve all of these things within the first three months. I think this was installed in November of last year and as we see the other turbines installed there's going to be an opportunity to gather a lot of information. I really think we're on the eve of being a leader when it comes to natural resources here.

I also understand that the kind of challenge of making sure that this is done in an environmentally-friendly way and probably, as you spoke here, the member for Digby-Annapolis may share the same concern that we need to get it right. We're not playing with something lightly here as this is a very fragile environment. There's a lot at stake here when it comes to marine industries, different sectors. I know that tidal range - as you mentioned in your earlier question about the impact of Georges - right up to the Minas Basin, it all has an important role so we need to get it right. I'm confident that we can be the leaders when it comes to renewable energy, and tidal power is just one of them.

MR. YOUNGER: That dovetails nicely into my next question. I'm wondering, has the committee - obviously, I assume, in consultation with your department - determined what would constitute a negative environmental impact, where the bar exactly will be set?

MR. BELLIVEAU: Again, you're raising a question about - I think that committee was struck and we had representations from the academic world. To me, there was importance, and one of the things I made note of is there was a fishermen's representative from the local community. That was the one thing that I looked for because if we're going to see signals from a negative impact, we're going to hear it loud and clear and probably the first people who are going to speak are from the local representation. They're very familiar with the environment around that; they fish, they actually ply the waters there on a daily basis, they're very familiar with any migration patterns or any fish stocks that are going to be declining or whatever, so we're going to hear instantly.

I'm very confident that the committee is in place and they have the best interests of the environment and they also have the best interests of the economy in that area, so we're going to have an instant feedback. Your earlier comment was that the technical devices may not be sending the data that we kind of - we're in this kind of "lazy-boy" world that we want to have this digital readout in front of us. I think there's a lot of information being gathered.

That turbine is working, it's my understanding, and if there's a negative impact you're going to see that from the local people, talking about there's herring that has spawned in that area, there are different lobster species that migrate back and forth, so you'll hear from the locals instantly. That's the kind of monitoring that I'm paying attention to and I think that we're on the eve of harnessing and having the opportunity to harness this natural resource. I'm very optimistic and I think a lot of Nova Scotians, coastal communities, and municipalities can benefit from this natural resource.

MR. YOUNGER: Just as the last follow-up to that, at the Resources Committee - I think it was the last meeting, but one of the more recent meetings - Minas Basin Pulp and Power were in to talk about this and talk about the tidal turbine project in particular. One of the reasons I ask where the bar is going to be set is because they're talking about the next phase being an array - I can't remember how many but it was quite a few - of these turbines in the water, which on the one hand is very exciting, because there's potential for a renewable resource, but obviously it also sets the stage - the impact of one turbine may be very different from having an array, especially the way they showed it mapped out.

What you're talking about is very important: what is the community impact? When I worked for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, I wrote a number of papers on that very issue in terms of taking community information and looking at stock assessments and so forth. The concern I have - that is one element of it - I think there are also people who are going to be saying, what's the bar that we're watching for to say, what do we define as a negative environmental impact? I don't disagree with you, the community part is important, maybe the most important, but there is also whether it's - okay, well, we have a silt build-up of so many inches or we have a change in the current pattern of this, there are all different things.

The example I give you is the Annapolis Basin tidal plant, you know, we all thought that was going to be a great idea when that was put in and, lo and behold, what we found out - and I would argue the reason that we will probably never build another one of that design - is that there are major siltation issues behind it which then reduce the size of the basin, reduce the effectiveness and the amount of energy you can get out of it. So sometimes you have - and people didn't predict that, and that's fine, that's why you do the tests. That's what I'm just wondering, outside of the community side, is there a bar that we're going to say at that point it's a no go?

MR. BELLIVEAU: Mr. Chairman, the member raises, I think, a very important question and, again, that's my personal background. I think a lot of people in the coastal communities will share this view, and this is something that the advisory panel will be addressing, I'm confident of that, finding the right balance of what is the right number for this array to be in Minas Basin, I think that's one of the things that they will be addressing. I've read some presentations on that about the tidal flow and where is that balanced approach, and I think we're actually seeing that. If I can just steer you to the wind turbines, you can almost see where there's a comfort zone, if you look at a ridge that overlooks a community, you can almost see how something looks visually acceptable and the right number is there versus being overcrowded.

I think the committee will be very conscious of this and the fishing community will also be very aware of what the right balance is. To me, the emphasis here is that the potential in the Bay of Fundy - and I'll pause there because I think that a lot of the tidal projects are focusing on one particular tidal area, the Minas Basin area, which is kind of the peak area where they have the highest and the lowest drop in tidal flow. That is not all the Bay of Fundy. There is a lot of tidal range from Cape Sable Island and if you do the horseshoe effect, right around to our neighbours in New Brunswick, there are a number of opportunities that have certain locations identified that have tidal flows.

For instance, in the Digby area, in the Petit Passage and Tusket Islands area off of Yarmouth, there are a number of places that have a high tidal range that in comparison, if you look at other parts of the world, they have less and are not equivalent to the outer ridges of Cape Sable Island right up around to our New Brunswick border. There is a very high tidal range and their focus right now is on Minas Basin, where we have the highest tidal range of 50 metres or whatever. What I'm saying is there are a lot of opportunities, we could have these turbines put out there and the municipal governments can benefit from them. I think there are great opportunities. I want to emphasize that we're going through this demonstration project, which is three years, so all of these questions, I think, are going to be addressed.

One of the other interesting scenarios they're talking about is a tidal lagoon - and I'll just put that out there - that one scenario is building a six-kilometre tidal lagoon. I'll just drop that seed again. There are natural tidal lagoons that nature has developed, they're already there, so very little work. I think we can benefit from our natural resource that literally rises and falls every six hours. So the potential is there for Nova Scotia. I've said this a number of times in the last few months that I think we can be the leader when it comes to natural resources, just as the western part of Canada has benefited from their oil sands and all that. When it comes to natural resources, we can be the leader there.

MR. YOUNGER: Thank you, Mr. Minister. It's funny, actually, that you should mention wind turbines, and before I move on to something else, I'll just comment that personally I like the look of wind turbines on a ridge. But I will tell you, that's a perfect example of why I say there needs to be a bar. I can go to Digby Neck right now and find 50 people who will tell me they don't like the look of a single one and 50 people who like all kinds of them and you can see it, they're neighbours. That's why I think sometimes it is necessary to have the bar.

Moving on in my last 10 minutes or so to a couple of other things. You talked about potential pesticide legislation in your opening remarks. In estimates last year, both you and the Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations had indicated to me in questioning that you had expected legislation to come forward in this session of the House. It doesn't appear that will happen now and I understand these things can take time.

You had also talked about the goal to harmonize regulations between Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia at the time. The two questions I have are: what timeline are you looking at in terms of making a decision on the direction you will go; and, is it still your intention that you would like to see harmonization of regulations among those three provinces?

MR. BELLIVEAU: Again, you're raising some very important questions. First of all I want to point out you're very attentive today, you've picked up on my opening remarks. I want to say our department has received over 1,700 responses during the consultation process. Our department is evaluating them. To me, that shows the interest of the public and I think, with the large amount, we want and need to do a thorough evaluation of that and make sure we understand all those comments. Thank you.

[12:30 p.m.]

MR. YOUNGER: I agree. That's why I say I don't criticize you for not being able to bring something forward this session, but do you have a sense of when you expect to have a decision on the direction you want to take?

MR. BELLIVEAU: I don't actually have a date but I can tell you it's something we're very interested in doing, and we'll do it at the appropriate time. Again, I want to emphasize that I know we take the opportunity to consult with the public very seriously and we received a large number of applications, so we'll bring in the appropriate steps at the right time.

We've done a lot of consultation. Again, in my opening remarks, I've met with our neighbouring provinces and we understand the importance of that. We also have consulted with some of the stakeholders of the companies that apply these. We need to take all of that into consideration. We're also in the midst of our growing season, so all that information needs to be evaluated and we'll make the decision at the appropriate time.

MR. YOUNGER: Obviously, one of the concerns is from the industry side and I think it's probably a fair concern. Some people in the industry are never going to like whatever changes you bring in and there are some who will say, fine, we'll adapt to it. The challenge many of them would have is that they would order their supplies for the next season, I would guess, fairly early - probably February, maybe even earlier than that. In whatever legislation, if any, that you choose to bring forward, are you willing to commit that it would have a long enough lead time for implementation so that you don't catch the industry off guard, where they've ordered chemicals that could suddenly, potentially, become banned and they're stuck with all kinds of stock?

MR. BELLIVEAU: I think it's almost as if he was participating in some of the consultations because I'm very aware of the people in the industry who apply these pesticides and I'm very aware they order their inventory months ahead. In one of my previous comments I said I was aware that we're in a growing season now, so I'm aware of that particular time frame. All of that information will be considered when we move forward.

MR. YOUNGER: And is it your understanding that you still have to review all these comments? Some provinces have chosen to include golf courses in legislation and some have chosen to exempt them. Now, one could argue that exempting a golf course is maybe not all that appropriate since they can be the largest users of cosmetic pesticides, because of the types of grasses they grow, much heavier users, in fact, than residential users, so are you looking at that issue?

MR. BELLIVEAU: Again, Mr. Chairman, on the golf courses issue, I have wrestled with that or struggled with that and have done that evaluation in my mind. Some of the presentations or the documentation that I've read - and I've asked that question internally of myself, the difference between a residence that has a home, has small children who may go out and frequently be on the lawn, or play on that, and some of the doctors have identified that the excessive use on lawns where you frequently have small children, that's one of the reasons we wanted to look at the non-essential use of pesticides on lawns. I looked at that in my evaluation as we moved forward here and compared it to golf courses.

Golf courses, first of all, they usually have professional people who take training regarding this. They are also usually, if you look at the age limit on certain golf courses, that children have to be 10 or 12 years old before they are accompanied by their parents. So there is some difference, that younger children may not be on a golf course. You're raising a very good, important point and again, as we review all these 1,700 applications, our staff, including myself, will take all of these into consideration. I know a lot of golf courses are exempt under some of these present jurisdictions.

MR. YOUNGER: You're right, minister, in some cases they are exempt and in some they aren't. As you go to make your decision, I would encourage you to take a walk around Brightwood golf course in Dartmouth one day. I don't know if you golf - I don't - but it's a nice place to go for a walk. My point being that the homes, many with very small children, border the area that is being sprayed and you can stand on the back lawn of some of those homes and as they spray on a windy day, or if they're laying a powdered pesticide, you can get covered in it standing on somebody's back lawn, because the lawns are so close to the fairways.

I would argue that - in some cases those people don't put any pesticides or fertilizers on their back lawns because they get effectively fertilized by the golf course. Maybe that's not so much true for golf courses in rural areas where there are properties, but you can see the same thing around parts of Ashburn, or actually Glen Arbour where, again, you can buy a house that backs right on the golf course. So I would encourage you to consider that when you're looking at it, and I know you will.

The final issue that I did want to get to, and I know you also talked about this in your opening remarks, is these new CCME guidelines for sewage treatment in Nova Scotia. I know you pointed out that 90 per cent meet the provincial requirements in the sustainability Act but, of course, as you rightly pointed out, there is now a movement towards the requirement of secondary treatment, which will be extraordinarily expensive. I personally think it's a good move to go to secondary treatment; however, there is a cost implication and that cost implication is going to be borne by municipalities.

In order to implement the secondary treatment by the deadline imposed by the CCME, there is, without question, a requirement that some of this work get underway within the next 12 to 24 months, in terms of design and so forth. Otherwise, it's simply just not going to meet the requirements. Is your department, obviously in co-operation with Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, looking at a funding program or advocating for a funding program with the federal government, to ensure that the municipalities can afford to do these upgrades?

MR. BELLIVEAU: You asked several questions there. Well, first of all, you asked if I walked the Brightwood golf course. I walked it as a golfer a number of years ago in a provincial tournament there. I don't think I was really interested in noticing the environment, I was more interested in seeing where that ball was going. Anyway, I'm familiar with that golf course, yes.

Your sewage treatment question, regarding the municipal wastewater management for municipal wastewater effluent, we have identified that and we are working with the municipalities to identify funding options. We'll continue to lobby the federal government for dedicated funding for this wastewater strategy. So we're very aware of that and again, as I said in my opening remarks, we know that our water is safe but there are also things we can do to improve that. Like you say, the municipalities are always looking for funding and we'd like to raise that with the federal government and make sure that we can lobby, on their behalf, to get some of these facilities upgraded.

MR. YOUNGER: The final thing I want to ask you about is the hydrogeological testing which is something I've advocated for and, in fairness, it's something that members of your caucus have advocated for prior to developments, where they're on well water instead of municipal water services. Are you recommending any move to a requirement for hydrogeological testing?

MR. BELLIVEAU: The question you are posing, we need to have an opportunity to gather some research on that and we'll try to get that information to you.

MR. YOUNGER: That's fine and I look forward to receiving that. That, minister, is the last question. I understand you have a closing statement which I am, unfortunately, going to have to read in Hansard because I have to get to the other estimates across the way, so I do apologize for that.

I would just like to leave you with one thought, and I can certainly talk to one of your staff people later about that - oh, two things. One, I think we're going to talk to one of your staff people about the Trenton issue and file the appropriate paperwork with your department to get those testing results, or whatever information we can, after the Trenton power plant, and I'll share them with the chairman because I think you might be interested in seeing them as well.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Very much so.

MR. YOUNGER: No problem, anything I can do to help you out.

The second thing is I really would encourage your departmental staff to look at this freedom of information request issue that I mentioned over the top. I do think there is a requirement - I think it will get ruled that it has to be released and I would hate to see it last a year, so hopefully within the next few days we'll see that released.

With that, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the time and I understand the minister does have a closing statement.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, member. The Chair will recognize the minister for a closing statement, unless there are a couple of questions from my colleagues in the NDP caucus. Is everyone okay? Thank you very much.

The honourable Minister of Environment.

MR. BELLIVEAU: My understanding, Mr. Chairman, just to make sure I'm clear, is that we're going until 1:45 p.m.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, 1:25 p.m.

MR. BELLIVEAU: Mr. Chairman, I would like to wrap up my appearance here today by first saying thank you to you and to the committee members for your time, and thank you for your questions about the department's work. We have a committed group of professional public servants in our department and I am proud to represent their work here today.

Our department works on behalf of Nova Scotians to help protect the health of our citizens and our environment. The dedicated staff of our department and I are committed to continuing that work and we will strive to fulfill the core priorities of the Department of Environment for 2010-11.

The Nova Scotia Department of Environment will strive to meet its core priorities within the guidelines of its mandate, which reflect its five guiding principles of legislation: the Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act, the Environment Act, the Wilderness Areas Protection Act, the Special Places Protection Act, and the Water Resources Protection Act.

[12:45 p.m.]

The mandate of Nova Scotia Environment is to support and promote the protection, enhancement and prudent use of the environment; to provide for the establishment, management, protection and use of wilderness areas; and to provide for the preservation, protection, and study of ecological sites which are considered important parts of the natural heritage of the province, and promote understanding and appreciation of same among the people of the province. Part of the department's mandate is also to conserve and allocate water resources to ensure long-term self-sufficiency and utilization to the greatest benefit of the population and ecosystem.

We are also committed to promote the interconnections between the health of our economy, the environment, and the people of the province, and promote the province's environmental assets as essential to it's long-term prosperity. The department will keep working with other departments and governments, as well as a broad range of stakeholders, to deliver programs and services to Nova Scotia.

During the upcoming year we look forward to continuing the work with our partners towards a healthy and prosperous Nova Scotia. Our overall vision is to ensure that Nova Scotia's environment is healthy, well-managed, and supports prosperous communities. Our department's vision is to see that Nova Scotia Environment leads the way to ensure that our environment is valued, protected, and enhanced in partnerships with all Nova Scotians.

We have 282 hard-working employees in 11 offices delivering programs and services throughout our province. As previously mentioned, the department has five core business areas. The Policy and Corporate Services Division is responsible for the coordination of policy and planning; it conducts research, evaluations, and provides advice; it oversees the provincial environmental impact assessment process; it also helps coordinate access to the department's operational records and other information; and it supports employees and organization growth and development.

Our Policy and Corporate Services Division also helps our department's involvement in the Round Table on Environment and Sustainable Prosperity. The round table advises government on broad issues of environment and sustainable prosperity, and it gives feedback on the progress towards meeting the goals of the Environment Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act.

The Environmental Monitoring and Compliance Division in our department delivers field operations related to the environmental promotion and protection from regional offices throughout Nova Scotia. This includes outreach and education, processing applications, inspections, and compliance enforcement. This division is the service delivery arm of the Department of Environment. This division promotes environmental stewardship through education and compliance initiatives. It inspects more than 3,600 facilities currently under approval from the department.

Another division is the Environmental Science and Program Management Division. It develops and delivers environmental management programs directed at sustainable development. Programs are designed to protect, manage and enhance the environment. It follows a comprehensive approach to the protection and sustainable use of Nova Scotia's air, water and land resources.

The Environment and Sustainable Prosperity Partnerships Division focuses on partnerships that benefit our economy and environment, education, youth, and innovation. This division helps us build a network of partnerships including non-government organizations, business, academics and municipalities.

The Environmental Trade and Innovation section works with other related departments to offer business assistance to support and promote environmental industries, initiatives and technologies. It also helps find sustainable solutions to environmental problems that have commercial and economic benefit. The Nova Scotia Youth Conservation Corp, part of this division, provides young work crews to local organizations to help carry out community-based environment projects. The Environmental Education and Outreach branch helps the department build relationships with community partners such as municipalities, non-government organizations, and others.

The fifth business area of the department is the Climate Change Directorate. It develops policies that help mitigate and adapt the climate change impact; leads the work to put the Climate Change Action Plan into effect; assesses opportunities for greenhouse gas reductions; sets priorities; and develops strategies, programs, and other actions to reduce emissions and help Nova Scotia prepare for climate change. This directorate assists departments such as Energy, Natural Resources, Fisheries and Aquaculture, Economic and Rural Development, and many more in achieving their climate change actions.

The Climate Change Directorate's commitment to combat climate change has been greatly assisted by a very successful funding program called ecoNova Scotia for Clean Air and Climate Change, and before I conclude this final statement, I would like to describe some of the tremendous achievements reached through this program. It supports projects and programs that reduce air emissions, it funds interesting projects that help our environment, and it also helps our business and our communities and our public institutions. It currently funds 152 projects and programs, and announcements for several of the project grants will occur in the near future.

These initiatives support the provincial goals of reducing greenhouse gases and air pollutant emissions as spelled out in the Climate Change Action Plan and the Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act. These include: reducing greenhouse gas emissions to at least 10 per cent below 1990 levels by 2020; reducing sulphur dioxide emissions by 50 per cent, from sources existing in 2001, by 2010; and meeting the Canada-wide standards for airborne fine particulate matter and ground-level ozone by 2010.

The ecoNova Scotia fund began with a $42.5 million federal grant. Nova Scotia was given the flexibility of deciding how to use this fund so long as it served to reduce greenhouse gases and air pollution. The ecoNova Scotia fund is a made-in-Nova Scotia program to strengthen the economy and give strength to our research and development capabilities.

The province incorporated broad principles for using the fund. These include: encourage projects and programs that develop initiatives in environmental technologies; adapt and commercialize environmental technologies; create economic and social benefits in Canada; encourage investment by public- and private-sector organizations; and build a capacity within Nova Scotia to initiate further emission reductions.

It has been a reasonably wide focus supporting projects led by business, industry, researchers, municipalities, community groups, and renewable energy developers. These projects will produce significant reductions in greenhouse gas and air pollutant emissions, and demonstrate that Nova Scotia is working toward a cleaner, greener future.

The ecoNova Scotia program helps the province meet the Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act, or EGSPA. The programs and projects supported by ecoNova Scotia also play an important role in implementing action outlined in the Climate Change Action Plan. Many of ecoNova Scotia's projects support development, adaptation, and implementation of renewable energy and energy efficiency which are key components of the Climate Change Action Plan.

As I have stated, our province is committed to reducing greenhouse gas emissions to at least 10 per cent below 1990 levels by 2020. We are also committed to achieving significant drops in air pollutant levels, including nitrous oxide, sulphur dioxide, mercury, ground-level ozone, and particulate matter. The Climate Change Action Plan charts a path to meet or exceed these air emission targets, with 63 actions in key areas such as air quality, energy efficiency, renewable energy, and transportation.

Thanks to the ecoNova Scotia fund, we are moving closer to attaining these specific goals one project at a time. For instance, it ensures that Nova Scotia Community College's Centre for the Built Environment on the Dartmouth waterfront meets the EGSPA commitment to build a green, sustainable facility by 2015. This facility also expands the expertise of the province's technical professionals, and creates a workforce that is skilled in installing renewable energy and other energy-efficient technologies.

Another example that will fulfill a portion of the Climate Change Action Plan is the projects focused on reducing air emissions in transportation - from trucking, to school buses, to individual motorists. A portion of the ecoNova Scotia fund is dedicated to businesses on the leading edge of creating or adapting green technology.

The Environmental Technology Program, ETP, offers grants to businesses and researchers. This program has been invaluable in supporting and demonstrating the emerging technology ready for commercialization. Some of these technologies will assist the province in realizing the EGSPA goals and the CCAP targets. The development of these technologies in Nova Scotia will demonstrate our intent to become the cleanest and greenest province in the country, and a leader in energy efficiency and renewable energy technology. Mr. Chairman, 32 projects are being supported to develop and implement these exciting new technologies, with job creation expected to exceed 55 jobs.

Clearwater Fine Foods Ltd., for instance, is partnered with a refrigeration company and together they will develop a promising way of dramatically reducing the fuel needed to run the freezers on their large freeze-at-sea vessels. The ecoNova Scotia fund is helping them do that. Other companies are running projects to improve the design of their products to make them more efficient and more cost effective; for example, solar thermal collectors in small-scale wind turbines. The demand we have seen for these green funding projects shows that Nova Scotians have very creative ideas to help the environment by using technology. The homegrown smarts and creative engineering can benefit Nova Scotian consumers. They can also expand our economic base as each project competes very effectively on the world stage.

One product that was designed and is manufactured in our province with ecoNova Scotia assistance is the LED roadway lights. These lights are as much as 50 per cent more efficient than ordinary road lights and they last many years longer than their competition. Mr. Chairman, this means that they use a lot less energy and will send a lot less material to the landfill. The ecoNova Scotia fund has provided funding to install thousands of these lights around the province, benefiting municipalities as well as the manufacturers. A major focus on the ecoNova Scotia program has been municipalities.

[1:00 p.m.]

A number of community-based projects have been started, especially by municipalities and community groups, with the support of the municipal program. To date, these activities have improved several recreational facilities, volunteer fire departments, and other community facilities. These improvements will reduce operating costs and make these facilities more comfortable and sustainable meeting places. Steering committee members rigorously review projects that apply for funding under the municipal program and the Environmental Technology Program. This ensures that ecoNova Scotia funds are used to support this objective most effectively and making Nova Scotia a sustainable place to live, recognizing that environmental, social, and economic aspects are linked and that the committee reviews and considers the benefits to all these areas. They evaluate each project using a standardized storing process that takes into account the objectives of ecoNova Scotia.

Mr. Chairman, 46 of the 55 municipalities in Nova Scotia have been able to do an audit on how they use energy and how they can minimize the costs and related pollution. The municipal energy cost savings for the project underway last year was estimated to be $4 million. This number will grow for the additional projects begun more recently. In all, ecoNova Scotia is supporting 110 projects in our municipalities. The program is supporting several other initiatives in Nova Scotia.

We're undercovering the potential for tidal energy in the Bay of Fundy to the impressive new Seaport Farmers' Market now under construction; ecoNova Scotia is supporting retrofitting work to this facility, and particular aspects of the construction will make the Seaport Farmers' Market a leader in environment and energy design. These measures include the use of geothermal, wind, solar energy, a green roof, and technology that minimizes freshwater use. This will eliminate 80 per cent of the non-renewable energy that might otherwise have been needed.

The ecoNova Scotia fund supports several projects and programs in addition to the municipal programs and the Environmental Technology Program, and these include: the Minas Basin Pulp and Power project; a wind integration study; a transportation sector program; a residential affordable-energy program that was announced today by Conserve Nova Scotia; an ice-rink energy project; a Capital Health natural gas conversion project; and the government house-in-order project. The provincial government owns or controls the operation of about 2,000 buildings. The government can reduce air emissions by retrofitting these existing buildings to increase energy efficiency.

Mr. Chairman, 152 projects have been supported and they will reduce greenhouse gas emissions by well over 200,000 tons every year. The ecoNova Scotia funding is just a portion of the project's funding, with the rest coming from business or other investors. The total impact of the original grant of $42.5 million will be much higher - over $150 million in economic activity in the province through to 2011. Transparency and accountability have been central to this program; the project applications are subject to a rigorous review by a large group prior to approval, and the projects are then tracked carefully and reported.

The federal funding for this program expires in March 2011. We are exploring ways to continue these types of efforts. We continue to promote clean technology development in our province. In ecoNova Scotia, the Clean Air and Climate Change program is an effective, responsible use of funds. It helps achieve benefits to our environment and our economy - benefits we can measure. These projects support economic growth, they create jobs, they help improve our communities in many regions of our province, and they will make our business more competitive.

The ecoNova Scotia program has reported the following results: greenhouse gas reductions of 200,000 tons each year, air pollution reductions of over 520,000 kilograms a year; savings of more than $4 million to municipalities' operating budgets, as calculated in late 2009. In other words, every $100 of ecoNova Scotia's spending will result in 0.81 tons of greenhouse gas emission reductions each year; 2.46 kilograms of air pollutant reductions; and an additional $477 in funds leveraged from the public and private sectors for Nova Scotian projects.

Hundreds of people are employed during the development of project funding for ecoNova Scotia, many of which will create new jobs upon their completion. For example, the Minas Basin Pulp and Power project is expected to create 20 jobs and the projects under the Environmental Technology Program are expected to create 55 or more permanent jobs.

Mr. Chairman, I also want to talk about the benefits and the management of our protected areas. I know that earlier we had some questions and I wanted to make sure that we have an opportunity to get this recorded, so please bear with me.

The provincial protected areas program, administered by Nova Scotia Environment in co-operation with DNR, plays a vital role in protecting our natural resources while ensuring responsible use and enjoyment. Our protected areas program also helps support Nova Scotia's image as a clean, green place to live, work and do business. With today's increasingly mobile labour market, taking care of our special natural spaces, while ensuring they can be enjoyed responsibly, can help us attract and retain skilled people, entrepreneurs and business, and visitors. This understanding is to be built into the Environmental Goals and Sustainable Prosperity Act, or EGSPA, which our provincial Parties supported when enacted in 2007.

As you know, one of EGSPA's goals is to legally protect 12 per cent of Nova Scotia land mass by 2015. My department's Protected Areas branch is playing a key role in achieving this goal. We are responsible for planning and managing Nova Scotia's 37 wilderness areas, 21 natural reserves, two heritage rivers, and for encouraging and supporting private land conservation.

Built on a foundation of co-operation and public involvement, the protected areas program is carried out in partnership with DNR and through the agreement with community groups, trail groups, and other organizations. The system includes representation of typical examples of our natural provincial landscape and sites, and features of the outstanding natural value of things such as the old forest and rare plant sites.

Understanding the opportunities of enjoying a variety of the wilderness recreation activities, our protected areas program complements DNR's provincial parks programs and the federal government's natural parks and natural wildlife areas. Non-profit, private lands and conservation organizations also make a vital contribution.

The benefits of a comprehensive protected areas system includes protecting our native species; delivering virtual services such as protecting drinking water supply areas and soils and by storing carbon dioxide; providing long-term sites of ecological research and education; securing our finest opportunities for wilderness, recreation and natural-based tourism including hiking, camping, canoeing, cross-country skiing, snowshoeing, and sea-kayaking; and sustaining the cultural traditions of hunting, fishing, and other recreational activities in a wilderness setting.

Mr. Chairman, I just want to reflect back on some of the questions we had earlier from my colleagues. One of the things they talked about was how our society has evolved in dealing with household waste, and I think we saw a couple of examples of that. Over the last 20 years we've seen our C&D landfills evolve literally from what we call a "dump" and the scenario when we drove by them, we saw large flocks of seagulls, probably 20 years ago, and we knew that we were passing the local community dump. I know, for instance, dealing with that on a municipal level in my previous job, we have seen a great evolution of how things can change, how people's attitudes can change when they look at household waste and how they want to be involved in recycling. Now over 50 per cent of our household waste is being taken away and not put into landfills.

One of the examples I've seen many times in the Barrington area is where we've seen a community that has been involved in a transformation on how we deal with waste. We see today that we go to that same C&D landfill and see the collection of household waste, we see wood collection, we see iron and steel, and the municipalities are actually making a profit now. They have employed people, it creates jobs and there's a different atmosphere there, so a lot of work has taken place.

We've also seen the improvements in our fishing industry where we see collection services on our wharves. One of the things that I was really impressed with is knowing that usually every week or every two weeks there is literally all the thousands of licence holders that have large marine engines, who usually change their oil, to know that each and every wharf across Nova Scotia now - through their harbour authorities and their management plans - actually has a collection service for oil containers. You were going to ask the question, where was this going 20 years ago?

To know today that we have these oil collection services basically in every coastal community, every port in Nova Scotia, it has been a great evolution. To be part of that, to be part of changing people's mindset and knowing that not only are you doing that collection in our homes or in our industrial marine settings, in our C&D landfill, there has been a great change in people's attitudes in the last 10 or 15 years and it has been great to be part of that.

[1:15 p.m.]

It has also been great to be part of an opportunity to go to Copenhagen. I said earlier that to get the invite and know that your background basically is a fisherman and there has been quite a change from going from the deck of a Cape Sable Island lobster boat to the Minister of Environment, to be on the world stage with 70 or 90 or 100 countries around the world, and to know that you're taking a message from Canada that you are deserving of being on that world stage. Nova Scotians are taking leadership when it comes to the environment and doing the right thing, having a cleaner and greener environment. To me, it was a very strong message to have that confidence to know that when we're dealing with waste and dealing with our technical waste, all those things that Nova Scotians are doing and then to be recognized there and come back with two awards. I had the privilege of receiving one of those on behalf of our staff and our department, I was very honoured.

Our Premier was also surprised and honoured that he received the recognition for his government. It was a very touching moment that a small province - and as you look around the world, Nova Scotia basically has less than a million people but we are doing the right things when it comes to the environment, and I think people out there are recognizing us for that. It's a great incentive to know that you are moving forward and you see that you have the confidence of all the people employed in this department.

I want this to come across right. We're confronted in the House each day, the way our parliamentary system is put in place that we have an opportunity and we have to be responsible, there has to be an opportunity for our critics and for our Opposition Parties to engage, to confront or to question us. I can tell you, sitting here in the last session, or the session that we're in, there are very few questions that come towards the Department of Environment. To me, the message is that your staff, the department is doing something right because you're not being confronted, you're not being challenged.

It leads into another part of the ministerial statement on biosolids. I could actually feel the surprise from the media when they said that's unique, that's usually not the strategy that the minister goes out and makes that statement. I think that the staff in Environment need to be recognized for that proactive approach. There was a surprise in the media's response of you're doing this and you're being proactive. To me, that was all part of engaging the public, getting that information out there, and I feel very confident that we had an opportunity - that question was raised here today and, again, that factual information is an opportunity to get all that information out there to the media.

I guess my time here now, the few minutes I have remaining - I know that I've been involved with a number of organizations, groups throughout my life. I've been involved with municipal government, involved with the fishing industry, and I know that I have good staff around me. I know the confidence that I have over the last 10 months of taking on this role and seeing that when you enter into our parliamentary system and you have an opportunity, our critics have an opportunity to challenge us, to ask us questions and to bring us to be accountable to the public. I think just by that story of not being challenged on a daily basis is a very large endorsement of this department getting it right. To me, that is a very obvious and good feeling as I drive home knowing that we're doing the right things for Nova Scotians.

I only have a few more minutes but I know something that's very important to you is the Georges Bank issue and I know that the question was raised in the House recently. It was directed towards myself as the Minister of Environment. I also know that the Minister of Energy has to make a decision regarding the Georges moratorium. I want to emphasize that our government was elected because people wanted change and they also wanted to know that they're very comfortable with our government, knowing that we're going to be faced with difficult challenges and difficult decisions. We have basically made a number of examples over the last 10 months and, again, Georges Bank is probably one of them. But I'm confident that the Minister of Energy and our Cabinet will evaluate.

Again, I made reference to the technology that has changed in the cabins of our lobster fishing vessels over the last 20 years. We all use GPS, we all use our high-tech gadgetry that I referred to and I'm getting there, I'm actually getting there. To me, to look back when that decision was made on Georges Bank and to know that there is technology that has advanced, our government needs to go out and make an informed decision and to have an opportunity to evaluate that. I understand that the decision has to be made by June 1^st of this year.

Again, I feel very confident that I can take my practical experience of literally working four decades on the water and having that opportunity to present that understanding and that sensitivity around Georges Bank. Also, it plays into a part when you talk about the Minas Basin and the potential there for capturing that renewable energy and the Bay of Fundy. I don't feel that anybody could have that opportunity or be blessed with that privilege to be involved in that decision-making process, and we need to get it right.

To me, the most complimentary comment that I had as Minister of Environment was when this announcement came out about the tidal power project in the Minas Basin. There was a committee formed and the media interviewed one of the local fishermen in the area, and the fisherman responded by saying: I take the Minister of Environment at his word; if there's going to be an environmental impact in a negative sense, the minister has the authority and he will stop that project. To me, to recognize that that individual understood the importance of that decision and they were confident in our government, in what we were doing, we were making the right decisions and we also were aware of the sensitivity about the economic importance of that sector and getting the decision right. So I feel confident as we move forward.

I know I've only got a couple minutes left but I've got a few paragraphs to read. So I'm going to conclude here by saying that I think we're on the right path and we're going to make life better for all Nova Scotians.

Mr. Chairman, it has been a rewarding year of much hard work and progress in our department, and we look forward to continuing to serve Nova Scotians and to help our province's environment in the year ahead. I thank you for the opportunity to describe to the committee the ways our Department of Environment works, its various programs and partnerships, and the accomplishments we have achieved. I appreciate your time and your attention, and I hope I have been helpful in answering some of the questions. I thank you very much for your time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, minister, an excellent job.

Shall Resolution E7 stand?

Resolution E7 stands.

That concludes the estimates for today and it's my understanding that we'll be on to Fisheries on Monday.

We are now adjourned.

[The subcommittee adjourned at 1:26 p.m.]