HALIFAX, TUESDAY, APRIL 13, 2010

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY

2:00 P.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. David Wilson

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I welcome everybody here this afternoon. I would like to now call the Subcommittee of the Whole House on Supply back to order. We are debating Resolution E15, the Department of Natural Resources.

The honourable member for Kings West.

MR. LEO GLAVINE: Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to start back in an area actually where I've been and that was talking about the Wheeler report. One of the main premises of the report, of course, is the province is able to provide 15 per cent of its energy from biomass renewable. I'm just wondering so far, where we seem to have put a lot of emphasis on the big project at NewPage, and that 60 megawatts, I guess, would constitute what percentage of the 15 per cent of renewables? Has the department taken a look at how far that project would go to actually using 15 per cent of the available biomass?

HON. JOHN MACDONELL: Mr. Chairman, to the member, I'm thinking I had that number once upon a time, I think it's 3 per cent of NSP's production of power. And I did have, I'm thinking 50,000 homes but I don't know, I don't know if that 3 per cent actually means 3 per cent toward the 15 per cent but I can find that out for you.

MR. GLAVINE: Yes, if you could make a note of that, that would be appreciated, minister. Just so that we have a sense of what that project would demand of wood fibre.

MR. MACDONELL: Well, I can tell you that.

MR. GLAVINE: Yes, okay.

169

MR. MACDONELL: Presently within the mill they have I think about 400,000 tons of waste that's through the milling operations, you know, because they do have a co-gen or electrical production there at the mill anyway. So this project is actually ramping that up to a bigger scale. So I think there are 400,000 tons for regular mill operations yearly, 175,000 tons from this project off Crown, and I think they need about 160,000 tons from private to complete that. So you're in, you know, 750,000 tons, something like that, I think.

MR. GLAVINE: I know that some of the European and Scandinavian jurisdictions have gone to much smaller projects and when we look at, you know, again the geography of Nova Scotia, perhaps in best utilizing especially some of the waste product from logging operations, also cleaning up some of the dead and fallen in our forests, that would certainly make sense so that's why I was wondering what it was in relation to the 15 per cent.

In determining the 15 per cent, and I know and respect Dr. Wheeler's expertise around management, but was he working and consulting with DNR to determine the 15 per cent? We are hearing some challenges around that 15 per cent so I'm just wondering, what was the process to arrive there because I'm not so sure that his background gives us as much comfort on the ecology and the sustainability and so forth of forestry versus actual management decisions?

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, a very good point and I don't think Dr. Wheeler went there. The Department of Natural Resources participated in the Wheeler - I don't want to say commission - but his community involvement and government involvement in that process, and I don't think Dr. Wheeler ever tried to stake the ground that he was giving information around the sustainability of it. That would be left to people who were more well versed in that area to ensure that it was, you know, sustainable practices and whatever. I think he was just trying to make the case that biomass was a reasonable thing to consider but it would have to be done, and others would have to determine the context of it being appropriate.

MR. GLAVINE: Moving on to Chignecto Game Sanctuary, last Fall the Minister of Energy granted a drilling exploration licence to East Rock which includes the Chignecto Game Sanctuary. Now, in the past I know the NDP chastised the Progressive Conservative Government for permitting this very same company to perform seismic testing in the very same area. So while it was the Minister of Energy who did grant the licence, this certainly falls under your domain as well since it includes the game sanctuary. I'm wondering why this change in thinking that had been articulated by the NDP prior to coming to government?

MR. MACDONELL: I don't remember that we chastised anybody but I remember we questioned them. There is a community group there, an environmental organization, that's very prominent in that area and they actually worked with the company the last time when they went in there but I don't know, I'm assuming this time as well, because there were some concerns I think around the moose population there and the impacts of what that seismic work may do. So I think the response that came out of the environmental community there was that they were quite pleased with how the company did their seismic work. There was basically no footprint, you know, on the ground for the work and very coordinated locating. So, yes, I think that went over quite well with the environmental group that oversaw how the company did that and worked with them on that.

The other component of this, I don't think I have the power to tell the Minister of Energy that he can't do this because it's his department that gives out the permits for this and there was, I think, a fair bit of work being done on the private land around that area as well, but one point, the Chignecto Game Sanctuary I think is one that has been interesting, whether it would be designated as a wilderness area from the Colin Stewart Forest Forum process but, anyway, that's a long way off. It's not there yet and it may not turn out to be a wilderness area but we certainly would deem that having all the appropriate information we could around its possible resources would be helpful to determine whether there's something there that, if we could mitigate any damage to the wilderness area or maybe adjust it so that if it turned out that there was a Sable amount of natural gas or something I think that the taxpayers of Nova Scotia would like to know whether that was worth trying to extract and still maintain the values we want to see in the wilderness areas.

MR. GLAVINE: Just in a different area, I believe you addressed a few questions around Strathlorne with the member for Inverness. I wasn't here for that and I'm wondering in terms of the future, I know support has been given there, but is it currently part of their problem, in terms of looking at future viability and so on, is it more current in that it's related to the downturn that's going on in forestry? Do we have the same level of silviculture being practised? I'm wondering how that is being determined by DNR.

MR. MACDONELL: I think the fact that there is less harvest because our sustainability program really, the sustainability fund and the stewardship agreements with mills or contractors is how that's rolled out generally. It's tied to the level of harvest. The more you harvest, the more work that should be done on the ground. I think with the downturn in the industry there's less work being done so there's less trees being planted and I think Strathlorne has gone from about 6 million trees annually down to 4 million trees.

It was a number, because the department tries to hit cost recovery, it kind of funds itself. We've been able to, I think there was one full-time equivalent is really what we lost there and I think that was from four quarter-time people, if I can put it in those terms. I would say the downturn in the sector is by and large the biggest reason for concerns about Strathlorne. If the downturn persists into the next year, we're hopeful the 4 million trees will hold and we can keep the facility going based purely on that volume.

MR. GLAVINE: The last area that I wanted to raise today was the GPI Atlantic study of 2008, Forest Headline Indicators for Nova Scotia. Their determination around the percentage declines in certain age species. For example, 61 to 80 year age class dropped by 65 per cent between 1958 and 2003; 80 to 100 year, 93 per cent; and over 100, 97 per cent. It's a very enlightening study for all who take very seriously having some old growth forests and older species as part of the entire harvestable trees in the province.

Did DNR work to integrate some of their study into present practices and also give consideration for the Natural Resources Strategy that is currently being worked on?

MR. MACDONELL: I think the Natural Resources Strategy would certainly look at the GPI Atlantic report. I know there are some things we can do in terms of policy direction and in that I mean on public land and on private land. The present code of practices applies to private land as much as it does to Crown.

I think the issue around trying to hit a target, perhaps, on increasing the amount of old growth forests or a certain age class because one of the categories that we fund through the silviculture program, the seventh category is uneven-age stand management. Hopefully over time we'll start to hit some of those age classes, but it wouldn't necessarily be the same throughout the whole stand.

I think we tend to think of old growth as stands where the majority of the stand is old. So as much as it is possible to encourage landowners to harvest incrementally, once every five years or whatever, I think we're fairly limited in how we can pull that off but I think trying to encourage best practices or better practices for harvesting and what we leave on a stand would take us a long way there.

I think if you're harvesting on a regular basis you are going to get some of your stand, obviously, that is really never going to get to be particularly old. So yes, you probably could have within a range, like a stand that would have maybe 70 years and younger but whether you'd ever actually get 100-year-old trees or older, part of that will be a personal choice by property owners and what they deem as the characteristics that they want to see in their woodlots and how they intend to maintain them.

MR. GLAVINE: That leads to the question and I did hear from one contractor who works a couple of tree harvesters, who had a contract on Crown lands and was doing some selective cutting and was I guess we'd say perhaps a little bit more environmentally friendly, however, his costs, of course, went up versus the traditional clear-cutting.

I'm wondering if that's something that simply private industry determines what the price return is or when cutting on Crown lands is there any way for the Crown to provide margins? I'm just wondering if you had heard that kind of issue around when DNR says on Crown lands or particular area, this is the type of harvesting we want carried out?

[2:15 p.m.]

MR. MACDONELL: It's a bit complicated, I think, was this a contract or . . .

MR. GLAVINE: A contractor.

MR. MACDONELL: . . . working for a mill, I'm thinking, or another company - worked for a company. But he wasn't a silviculture contractor.

MR. GLAVINE: No.

MR. MACDONELL: And the complaint really was the inability to make enough money . . .

MR. GLAVINE: Yes, the cost return on that type of harvesting.

MR. MACDONELL: Well look, I have to say I'm not sure if I'm there yet. I have wondered around silviculture funding and how we should administer that and whether that is something that actually should come back into the department and we administer it or whether we leave it in the present situation where it goes out as stewardship agreements with contractors or mills. I think there is about a 10 per cent fee they can charge for that administration.

It would seem to me that one of the tenets of silviculture should be that you harvest a stand based on improving it. In other words, when you harvest a stand, you do it with the idea that you're doing silviculture work. So whether it is reasonable to think that - I would assume that if they're harvesting the stand that they should be paid enough, I mean that's between him and the mill or whoever hired him, if they're not really interested in paying him more. But whether or not silviculture funding should go to harvesting in a certain way, I don't think I'm quite there yet.

It would seem to me that - and I say if it turns out that we impose certain harvesting practices, I don't know that we're going to fund them. It also may mean that on those stands we wouldn't have to take a contribution, the private landowner may not have to contribute their dollar and the mill wouldn't have to contribute. So if we think that silviculture is being done by the way they harvest, well maybe we won't have to take dollars from them to pay for silviculture on those stands. So all that I think I'm going to leave to the strategy process in the hopes that we'll get some guidance around that from the strategy and from my department staff. We're kind of eager to get that process underway.

He's working for somebody and they're not paying him enough, is what you're saying, so I'm not sure how far down that road I can be helpful.

MR. GLAVINE: With that, Mr. Chairman, I've concluded my questions to the minister. I want to thank you and your staff for the helpful nature in dealing with those questions.

MR. MACDONELL: I want to tell the member, Mr. Chairman, on the note I gave him on Northern Pulp, on the bottom of the sheet, I think it's number six, there is a statement about replacing land that we buy. That is not for this agreement but I think on future agreements that if we purchase land that would be harvestable land, timberland, that we would try to replace that. I think our emphasis would probably be around those river corridors and places you can't harvest anyway in the province. I thought if the member was to read that, he might say oh, you've got to replace that 55,000 acres. That is not what that means, okay.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cape Breton West.

MR. ALFRED MACLEOD: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I want to say hello to the minister and his staff and say what a pleasure it is to be back here again to ask a few questions. Of course one of the questions that is on a lot of people's minds these days is coyotes. I know you've talked about that over the last several days but if you don't mind, we'll go down that road a little further today just to see.

I understand that the minister is considering doing something about some kind of a bounty or whatever, and I'm not sure if he has really decided yet as to what it is but I wonder if he would like to expand on that a little bit and as a result of that I think there will be a few questions.

MR. MACDONELL: I am considering it. I haven't entirely determined what that might look like but I think we're getting fairly close. So yes, I think the information I gave out to the media earlier was that by today I was hoping to make a decision. I did have discussion with my staff earlier. We discussed a number of options and costs and whatever, so there was nothing in any of that that has moved me away from the idea of a bounty, I'll tell you that.

MR. MACLEOD: Minister, how does your department feel about this idea of doing some kind of a bounty? Has there been some consultation with the department biologists and others within the department, to get a sense of whether or not this is the right road to go down, considering what was done in the early 1980s and where that led?

MR. MACDONELL: Some think it's not a practical thing. Our Web site actually says bounties don't work and I made that comment in the past, the recent past, that we weren't going to do a bounty because it didn't affect the population of coyotes, but affecting the population is not where I'm going with this.

I have to say that in one of the conversations I indicated earlier that I'm hoping to have a talk with an animal behaviourist. I'm wondering if additional pressure on coyote population would, hopefully, remove some of those more brazen ones that we would just get in the numbers but also might deter this behaviour that we see, this kind of more bold behaviour in coyotes. I don't regard that as kind of a traditional behaviour of any wild animals, really, but certainly not for coyotes.

It is my hope that along with catching some of the potential worst offenders, that maybe we'll change behaviour a bit and they'll be a little more leery of people and not so eager to approach them is one of the things that I'm hoping will come out of this.

MR. MACLEOD: There's no question the safety of the residents of Nova Scotia is at the foremost of everybody's thoughts when it comes to this. I was just wondering if you've had any chance and opportunity to speak with members of the Federation of Anglers and Hunters and some feedback from that group as to where they think we should be going as a community and as a province.

MR. MACDONELL: No, I haven't. I think my staff have been in touch with the Trappers Association regarding our direction.

MR. MACLEOD: The idea of trapping and going down that road, that's the route you intend to look at?

MR. MACDONELL: We've talked about it. I can't say we've nailed it down yet, but I'm thinking that might be the best way to go.

MR. MACLEOD: It is my understanding, and Lord knows we've all been wrong before, but it's my understanding that this very type of a bounty where there would be an upgrade on the quality and the amount paid for pelts was voted on at a recent meeting of the Anglers and Hunters - I'm not sure if the Trappers Association was there. It was voted down. I'm wondering again if you would consider talking to the Federation of Anglers and Hunters to get some input as to why it was voted down?

MR. MACDONELL: Sure. Do you have a copy of the resolution with you?

MR. MACLEOD: My discussions were over the phone, minister.

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, I'd be glad to chat with them or have my staff chat with them.

MR. MACLEOD: I think if you're going to make a decision that's going to have this kind of an impact, I think it's important that we understand from the people that are more in tune with nature than some of us are.

MR. MACDONELL: Some of us are in tune with nature.

MR. MACLEOD: Oh, yes, some of us are. Also, have you had any contact with anyone in the Nova Scotia Sheep Producers Association regarding their thoughts on what should be done with the coyote population?

MR. MACDONELL: We've had a number of conversations with the sheep producers. The last meeting I had with them, this wasn't something they came with. Actually, they were, although I do recognize one individual, one farmer, who has been in the media around thinking there should be a bounty. I don't know if they necessarily are thinking in the same way I am - I think they're thinking about shooting them is probably where they're going.

I think the conversation with the sheep producers was more around deterrents or you do your due diligence - fencing, dogs, whatever - to protect your sheep as much as you can.

MR. MACLEOD: Donkeys.

MR. MACDONELL: Donkeys, yes.

MR. MACLEOD: Thank you for that. I think the coyote question is one that has been on many people's minds for the last little while and it looks like you're taking a very proactive approach to that and I want to congratulate you for doing that. Hopefully you'll talk to enough people and the animal behaviour people as well so we can find a solution that's workable and feasible so people are not worried about travelling wilderness or going hiking or whatever as they are now.

There are a lot of concerns. We've had petitions, we've seen people worried about going out in their yards. I know in my own area there's a very large coyote that tracks through the yard on a fairly regular basis and you wonder what it is that attracts them there. Anything we can do to deter this I think is going to be a good thing.

I'd like to turn a little bit to parks in the Province of Nova Scotia and work that you're doing on the parks. Again, there are some very positive things happening there. One of the parks, it is within my own constituency, is the Mira River Park. There's a number of initiatives being taken there and I just wonder if you could give us an update on those initiatives and also a timeline as to when completion might be and finally, part three of the question, is it going to have any impact on the summer activities there on the Mira River?

MR. MACDONELL: I think I don't have anyone who can answer that question for me. I know in Laurie Park we're doing a fair bit but we're shutting the park down. I don't think we're going to be shutting down the Mira River Park. It's a two-year project and we're not closing the park while we do the work like we are with Laurie Park. If you need more particulars about exactly what is going to happen there, I can try to get those for you.

MR. MACLEOD: That would be very helpful. The word on the street, so to speak, is very positive and there is a challenge, and you and I have spoken about this challenge and one other point and that is regarding a cemetery that was within the boundaries of the park property. The concern that the parish has right now with the expansion and the new work taking place within the park, will there be continued accessibility and/or ability to get there and do some parking. I know you're familiar with it, minister, and I know you're trying to find an answer. I just would like to ask you to really try to find an answer because the community is getting quite concerned. As the work proceeds in the park their concern is that their concern won't be addressed before it's too late. So if we could find something about that, I think that would be a very helpful thing for the community and for the parish.

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have to say it seems to me that some time ago I think I signed correspondence on that. I'm not thinking that the answer was no. So nobody gave you a copy? Anyway, I'll try to find out about that for you as quickly as I can actually on that. I know it went in the system.

MR. MACLEOD: Yes, and you were very gracious in holding a meeting with us and we sat down with the local area councillors but as recently as last Thursday I had an e-mail from the community saying that they had not heard anything from the parish priest and he was, again, getting a little concerned and asked me if I would ask. I did mention it to you last week and I thought this was an opportunity to bring it up again just to see where we're at in that respect.

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, okay, The individual that I met, I'm thinking the correspondence would have gone to them.

[2:30 p.m.]

MR. MACLEOD: And, again, the original request had come from the parish priest and the parish council and the information that was transmitted to me was that neither one had heard anything and we're wondering where things are at. It could be as simple as it may have landed on somebody's desk and never got any further than that, I'm not sure, and before we start getting too excited, I would just like you to track it down and see if we can find a reasonable answer for the people before too much longer.

MR. MACDONELL: Okay.

MR. MACLEOD: Turning to another park, and that's the Two Rivers Wildlife Park, which is run by a foundation and a community group, I was wondering if the minister could give us any indication if they have any plans or thoughts this year as to supporting that park in a bigger way. Over the past number of years there has been some support there, I would just like to know if that support is going to continue or where we might be?

MR. MACDONELL: Is that the wildlife park?

MR. MACLEOD: It is.

MR. MACDONELL: It's not part of - there are four of the bigger projects - Mira, Laurie Park, Cape Chignecto and I can't think of the fourth.

MR. MACLEOD: Whycocomagh, I think.

MR. MACDONELL: Whycocomagh. So I know it's not part of those four. I can get more particulars about it.

MR. MACLEOD: If you keep giving me short answers, I'm going to run out of time.

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, there's nothing coming to me as to what the plan is, whether it's different than any other year. I'm thinking it won't be less but I don't know that and whether it's going to be more.

MR. MACLEOD: I thank the minister for that and it's very hard to have everything at your fingertips and I certainly appreciate that but I guess the request from the community would be from the people who are involved in that wildlife park, is that indeed the hope would be that we would maintain where we've been at the very least and there has been a good working relationship between Two Rivers Wildlife Park and Shubenacadie and their help and guidance is very important and crucial. The Two Rivers Wildlife Park is, well, I guess it is for sure the only wildlife park on Cape Breton Island. It is part of the tourism scene and it is an integral part of the infrastructure there for keeping people the extra day or so and it helps. So anything that the department can do to ensure that that remains a viable part of our community would be very much appreciated.

I would like to go now, if I could, Mr. Minister, to the NewPage/Emera megawatt power project using the biomass. Again, it certainly sounds like a good news project. With every project there are people that have questions on both sides of the equation. My attempt today will be to bring forward some of the questions that are on one side of the equation to see if it has been looked at and to hopefully address some of the concerns of the people at home.

My understanding is that NewPage itself uses 250,000 to 300,000 tons of wood a year. This proposed 60 megawatt cogenerator will need an additional 600,000 to 700,000 tons a year of materials. I'm wondering if in any of the correspondence or any of the discussions that have been held if you have been made aware of those types of numbers. That seems like a significant growth - no pun intended - over where things started out.

MR. MACDONELL: I can tell you what we gave them permission to harvest and I can also say I would be surprised that the tonnage of wood used by the mill is that little. If my memory is right and maybe one of my staff will correct me, but I think that project requires about 700,000 tons. They have about 400,000 tons in mill waste so I think the amount of wood they start with is going to be quite a bit bigger than 400,000 tons if that's the waste part, which they've been burning in a cogeneration facility to produce electricity for the mill for some time now.

The consent agreement that I signed with them limited them to 175,000 tons more on that Crown land. They need about 160,000 tons additional which they are to acquire on private land. I guess there's nothing to stop them from getting the 175,000 tons on private if they decide they want to do that. But if they're going to harvest for that project additional fibre, then we limit them to 175,000 tons. Also, limit them so they couldn't harvest biomass above that and sell it to another mill.

MR. MACLEOD: I'm to understand, Mr. Minister, that whatever they harvest, they have to use in their own operation? It's not transferable in any way, shape or form?

MR. MACDONELL: Right.

MR. MACLEOD: If they use it in their own operation then they could sell off the electricity that's over and above the needs of the NewPage plant.

MR. MACDONELL: Well, the plan now is to sell electricity, that's the plan. They are going above their own needs, that's the reason they needed the consent. If it were just for their own needs, they wouldn't have had to come to us.

MR. MACLEOD: It's my understanding, Mr. Minister, the president of the Nova Scotia Woodlot Owners and Operators Association has some concerns about the amount and the volumes of wood this project could be taking up and what it might do to the eastern counties of Cape Breton Island. Was there any discussion with those individuals and the private woodlot owners that are in the same area as the Crown lands and the effect it may have on their operations?

MR. MACDONELL: I don't think there was much discussion with the Woodlot Owners and Operators. I have two pieces of correspondence in my desk, I guess, in support of the project before we ever got the consent agreement signed. I'm trying to think of who those are from. Of those eastern counties, there's a woodlot organization, Kingsley Brown, I think, is mostly associated with it. I've had discussion with Kingsley, he's a big supporter of this project, I'm trying to think if one of those letters is from that organization and I'm thinking it's not, but I do have two.

My impression is that support among the woodlot owners is quite strong there. One of the components of this agreement was that the mill be FSC certified, which they are. That wasn't necessarily a condition for the private land - a fair bit of it in those counties is FSC. certified but that doesn't mean that wood couldn't come from other private landowners but as far as the Nova Scotia Woodlot Owners and Operators, I've talked to them, as a matter of fact, I went to their meeting on the weekend. I've had discussions with Wade Prest, I won't say once a month since last June but quite often because we were working on an MOU for a project that they want to do in the Eastern Shore on two pieces of Crown that they want to harvest in an alternative way. So they've been working pretty much all winter with my department staff on that project.

I think if Wade has a concern, it's probably similar to the one that I've heard expressed from the Ecology Action Centre that this project may be too big, that they would like to see, you know, perhaps smaller projects or projects that just use the waste from mill operations to produce electricity or heat and not be harvesting additional wood that this project would require.

MR. MACLEOD: I wonder, minister, if it would be possible for you to share the letters of endorsement that you got?

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, I can do that.

MR. MACLEOD: That would be great. Some of the people who have talked to me and again I am no expert, I can guarantee you that, but some of the people have said that the use of biomass for generating electricity is very inefficient. It's something like 89 per cent inefficient as to actually producing electricity.

So the question then becomes if it's 89 per cent inefficient and if there's going to be a toll on the province's woodlands of cleaning them up, which is part of what happens, but after a certain point with those kinds of demands that we're talking about, 700,000, we get to a point where we may not have anything left to harvest. If we're doing this on the premise that it's to get green credits and we're going to destroy a forest or clean a forest out using a very inefficient system - like you wouldn't heat your home with something that was 89 per cent inefficient, why is this project good for Nova Scotians and good for the area?

MR. MACDONELL: Well, I think if the number one question you're asking is, is it sustainable, in other words can we cut the 175,000 tons of biomass off this piece of Crown land and do it until the end of time, my answer is yes. We crunched the numbers. Actually the NewPage mill was harvesting at this level or higher some years ago supplying another operation and they've stopped doing that. So we know the wood fibre was there. The fact that they are FSC certified means that they should be reducing their amount of clear-cutting, you know, it's an audited system. It's the highest standard of harvesting practice that there is. So we feel quite confident in the supply that they need to take and that they can do that continually. We feel that they have the highest level of harvesting standards. I would like to see them do less clear-cutting and it's my understanding that FSC, they should be moving to less or doing about 60 per cent clear-cutting, 40 per cent selection.

I think you're right in the sense that there is a limit to the amount of biomass or how much we want to see go to this. I don't know about your number about efficiency but I think you're right in that direction. What I've heard is burning thermal is a better application of the wood, you know, a more efficient way to get the most energy out of the wood. I don't think, even though the arrangement between Emera and NewPage is a business agreement between them, we really only come into this because they needed our consent to use the wood for a different purpose. So we set the standard for what we wanted to see on harvesting practices, the volume, and so on.

So I think that discussion, actually I think it has probably gone over to Energy around what they're willing to set as a standard for others of these kind of large electrical projects, but they certainly have had discussion with DNR around if they are going to go with biomass, what might be deemed as a limit, you know, because we're not interested in seeing the forests cut and burned any more than you are, I've got to tell you.

MR. MACLEOD: I guess, again, as I've said earlier, I'm certainly not an expert on this but you did say earlier that it would be about 700,000 tons that would be burned roughly, give or take?

MR. MACDONELL: Yes.

MR. MACLEOD: So 175,000 tons of that comes from Crown land?

MR. MACDONELL: Yes.

MR. MACLEOD: The other 525,000 tons comes from the private woodlot producer as a result of harvesting for the mill or byproduct?

MR. MACDONELL: Or from Crown, I mean they're harvesting on Crown. NewPage harvested on Crown anyway because they have 1.5 million acres there. So they're harvesting for their mill operations on the Crown land now and probably some from private but the waste from that mill operation creates the 400,000 tons that they're burning in this, presently are burning. So 175,000 additional tons on the Crown and then about 160,000 tons more on private.

MR. MACLEOD: From the private?

MR. MACDONELL: Yes.

MR. MACLEOD: Well, thank you very much, I've been educated today I think. I'll move on to a different part of your . . .

MR. MACDONELL: Can I give you some information?

MR. MACLEOD: Sure, please.

MR. MACDONELL: The letters of support, and I can get you copies, Cape Breton Island Building & Construction Trades Council and the Nova Scotia Landowners and Forest Fibre Producers Association, but I'll get you copies.

[2:45 p.m.]

MR. MACLEOD: Thank you very much for that, minister, I appreciate that. Maybe we could move on to another subject that's always good for some conversation and that's, of course, the subject of open-pit mining or strip mining, or whatever we would like to call it this week, and I just want to know where indeed the province is as far as its commitments to the open-pit process? I know there's an active mine situation going on in several areas of the province - Stellarton and Point Aconi. Are there plans in the future of your department for any other sites for open-pit mining?

MR. MACDONELL: I think this would be what we would generally refer to as surface mining and if I'm right, I think there's a moratorium on surface mining in Cape Breton.

MR. MACLEOD: Yes, there is.

MR. MACDONELL: There is and presently that's still the standard but that doesn't mean that I'm not interested in having a look at that. As a matter of fact, I had kind of hoped to have kind of a broader discussion on that within my department through the winter and that hasn't happened. It is something that might continue but I would like to have a re-look at all the circumstances that got us there to see whether that's the place where we need to be or if we can do something there, but I'm not sure. It strikes me as being a particularly dicey area to enter but I don't want to abandon it, you know, just offhand, and say we're not going to look at that. I would like to take some closer look at that to see whether that should stay or could go, or what the circumstances might be.

MR. MACLEOD: Madam Chairman, last year during estimates we had a similar conversation and at that time you had said that there would be no more strip mining in the community of Port Morien.

MR. MACDONELL: Right.

MR. MACLEOD: I would like to ask the minister if that's still the statement that he'll stand by and his department will stand by?

MR. MACDONELL: At the present time that's the statement I would stand by.

MR. MACLEOD: At the present time, so there's where we've run into the little bit of an issue because you said there's a moratorium in place but I think if you had your staff refer back to the discussion, and your deputy, the word was there would be no strip mining in Port Morien, not at the present time, not in the future, and no point thereafter.

MR. MACDONELL: That may well be the case, but I want to have a look at it. I certainly have no intention of allowing strip mining without some engagement of the community. I've never actually been close to any of that discussion or engagement. If the community is as dedicated to the idea of no strip mining as I think they have been in the past, then I have no desire to go down that road. The moratorium is good with me. I just want to have a chat with some people because I'm kind of out of the loop on that so I need to re-educate myself and see if all the issues that brought them there are still the same.

MR. MACLEOD: Minister, I can save you a lot of trouble. I will tell you that the community of Port Morien and surrounding areas of Birch Grove and Broughton are not interested in the strip mining in any way, shape or form. I would ask that you review your commitment from last year and reiterate that commitment. I would even ask you to send me that commitment in writing so that we can share it with the community and I'll give you full credit for being the person that has said it won't happen there again.

That community is very, very adamant about the fact that it shouldn't be there. Mostly because the resource is right within the community, it's not out back, it's under their houses and it's right in the area. We, as politicians, will have no rest until we come to that realization. I did share your comments with the community after you made them last year and they were very happy with that. I guess I'd just like to make them happier for a longer period of time. At the same token, I don't think there's a desire by any government to go into a community and upset the community to a point where it affects people's homes and their way of life. I don't think that's the intention of any member of any Party in this province.

MR. MACDONELL: Look, I don't need to go out looking for controversy, it seems to find me easily enough. I guess that's part of the education thing I'm talking about, I'm not clear of the lay of the land. You know the communities and what they look like and what this would look like. For me, I need to go there and see it and feel it because I really don't have an issue with the moratorium there but I'm not sure if you think that applies to all of Cape Breton, so for me it's more of an educational thing.

From what you said it doesn't strike me that would be a place which would lend itself well to that activity at all. Anyway, I have no desire or plan right now to change that.

MR. MACLEOD: I thank you for that and would be glad to give you a personal tour of the area at any time and meet with some of the people that feel that way. I know that if you talk to members of your department, they've had some interaction with the community on many occasions as well and they understand where the people . . .

MR. MACDONELL: My two colleagues from Cape Breton have kind of indicated to me what their thoughts are.

MR. MACLEOD: The last question I'll ask because I have two colleagues who would like to share my time, I would like to talk to you briefly about the Xstrata mine and the Donkin coal seam which is an underground mine. It has been the subject of a lot of discussion and just before Christmas we heard some positive news that they're thinking about moving forward with a metallurgical, coking coal-type of operation versus a thermal coal operation which had been their initial thoughts. Just within the last seven or eight days the cost on the world market of both thermal and metallurgical coal has gone up by 20 or 30 per cent, depending on which one you're talking about.

My understanding is today that with the transformation from a thermal mine to a metallurgical mine that there are certain new permits that have to be put in place. I believe most of them are federal permits and my question to you is that if there are any provincial issues and/or permits that have to be looked at because of the change from where we were - and where we were, as I understand it, all the permits were in place - but if there were any new permits that would have to be looked at because of this change, I just wonder if your department is looking at that now or have they been approached, or maybe there's nothing there that you have to do but, of course, we would be looking for your continued support of the project.

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, well, I'm a supporter of this project and I think the proponents of this project are quite familiar with the process in the department, you know, the permitting, and we have that one-window access, one way in and it's to try to take care of everything. So, I don't think there's really an issue and my staff are really well aware of the project. They've been in touch with the proponents on lots of occasions. So, yes, as far as kind of the due diligence of getting this done in the appropriate time and way, I can assure you it is being taken care of.

MR. MACLEOD: Madam Chairman, I just want to say that this is indeed probably one of the largest privately funded projects that you're going to see in Cape Breton Island in some time and that, indeed, the excitement and anticipation around the community is quite high. Just in the Village of Donkin alone, we have anywhere from 35 to 50 people who are out West making their living and with the potential of a mine, we're thinking that at least 50 per cent or more of them will be able to come back home. So it is important that we as a group work towards making this happen and happen with private money rather than with government dollars. So your support on this project is appreciated and I want to extend a thank you on behalf of the community for that support. With that, I'm going to relinquish my time to the member for Cumberland South.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cumberland South.

HON. MURRAY SCOTT: Thank you, Madam Chairman, we have about 20 minutes?

MADAM CHAIRMAN: About 20 minutes, yes.

MR. SCOTT: Thank you. Good afternoon, to the minister and your staff. You probably don't recall but the last day we ended off, we had been talking about the land acquired in Cumberland County and dwelling owners who were facing the possibility of moving and, again, I appreciate your responses and your willingness to at least review that policy.

You'll remember as well that the Municipality of Cumberland had sent a letter to yourself in regard to their questioning the sanctuary process that appeared to be on the horizon versus land that the province acquired. I had asked you about some forestry practices and whatnot and I had gone through, there were six questions that the municipality had put in a document to yourself and I had gone through five of them. The last one was and, again, the question they're asking is around the harvesting of fibre in the Apple Head/Apple River area of the land that was acquired just recently by the province. In regard to that process I guess the municipality was wondering, the sixth question, they wanted confirmation that this particular forest operation meets federal and provincial environmental sustainability initiatives and objectives.

MR. MACDONELL: We have a code of practice so they would be required to maintain their stream buffers, retain a level of coarse wooded debris indicative of the stand, their wildlife clumps, and I think there's actually, I don't remember everything in the code of practice but it seems to me that there's a certain incline, on side hills or whatever, you can't harvest based on the angle or whatever. So, yes, they have to follow, I mean they're a company that operates in the province, I'm sure they're aware of the code of practice because we would be charging them if they don't comply.

Now, as far as federal, I'm not sure what federal regulations they might, unless it's in a stream. (Interruption) Yes, my deputy says he has never heard of the feds being involved in a forestry operation but we have regulations they have to follow and we intend to make sure that they do, that everybody does.

MR. SCOTT: Thank you, minister, and again, those are questions that I put forward on behalf of the municipality so I appreciate that.

I just want to switch to an e-mail that was sent to you and it came from a lady named Dianne Powell. There's some concern in the community - I'm sure you know where the Folly Mountain area is, Folly Lake . . .

MR. MACDONELL: They're harvesting the hardwood there, I think.

MR. SCOTT: Well, there's harvesting on both sides of the highway there. She had written to you and she had several concerns around the amount of harvesting that is taking place there. It seems to be happening quite rapidly. After she sent me the note I went by myself, just to have a look and it is quite an operation that is underway there right now, actually cleaning both sides of the highway.

Dianne had sent this e-mail to you and I see now there is a response that had gone back, I guess basically answering her questions around the harvesting practices. One thing I wondered, her last question, she ends off by saying, could you please tell me exactly who visits the site and assesses the criteria and reports any offences and what is the punishment for violation of these rules?

I guess she outlined some concerns she had and you responded in regard to what I believe were answers to those questions she had. She was concerned about who actually enforces the rules and what happens if the rules are broken. They are actually cutting right to the side of the highway. It is Trunk 4, it is the old Trans Canada Highway. They are cutting right to the side of the highway. As you know, the Canada Winter Games are coming up next winter, there will be a lot of folks visiting from across the country, we hope. Her fear is around, obviously for wildlife. For myself, travelling through there for a lot of years, the top of Folly Mountain is a very windy area. In fact the sign that says "Caution, Blowing Snow" is left there year-round and the flashing lights are obviously put on in the wintertime.

Now the whole top of the mountain is opened up, it is completely bare on the very peak. She has concerns around that as well, but her main question, I guess, was who enforces these rules and what happens if there's a violation found?

[3:00 p.m.]

MR. MACDONELL: I'm thinking the closest depot to where she lives, with DNR staff, would be Debert, those would be the people who I would think could go - if she had a complaint that they would go out.

Now as far as fines, I'll try to find what level that is for infractions that companies or people do who are harvesting. In the regulations the fines would be there and I can try to get the member a copy of that and he can it send to her, I don't think I did it probably in my correspondence.

MR. SCOTT: Thank you, minister. If you would have someone look at her e-mail and just - I know there was a response sent back but I think it just kind of - it highlights back to her what she asked.

MR. MACDONELL: Right.

MR. SCOTT: So if someone could take a look at that, she's a very community-spirited person for that area in the Wentworth Valley. In the Fall of the year, obviously with the colours, there's a lot of attraction to that area. The Canada Winter Games, as I said, are going to be in the area next winter and the community has raised some issues around what is left behind for the community to deal with and they're wondering. Again, my concern was for the blowing snow in the winter. That's going to be a wide open area now and I'm sure it's going to cause a lot of drifting and probably cause some hazard for the travelling motorist.

MR. MACDONELL: Is that private land, do you know? It is Crown or private?

MR. SCOTT: Minister, I'm not sure. I should know but I don't know.

MR. MACDONELL: Could you give me the name - would you have a phone number or a way to contact?

MR. SCOTT: Why don't I give you a copy of her e-mail. I'll leave a copy of her e-mail with you and you can see her e-mail address there and I think contact is there for her.

MR. MACDONELL: Okay, thank you.

MR. SCOTT: Thank you, minister. Just one last quick question, it's around off-highway vehicle enforcement. I want to say, first of all, that I think the enforcement officers do a tremendous job. I talk to a lot of the club members, whether it is snowmobile or off-highway vehicle groups, and I think they appreciate it very much. I know families do, the enforcement aspect of what is happening within Natural Resources.

I guess I just had a question for you. Are you looking at increasing those numbers? Is there any increase in the budget this year for off-highway vehicle enforcement?

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, I'm thinking we're down by three and I'll check to see whether that's three of the 12 specialists that we had trained for, I don't know if I said purely ATV work but there were 12 officers that the work was designed for that, or whether it is just three out of about 70 conservation officers. I'll just see if I can get that confirmed.

Yes, we have three of the 12 that we have to replace and the way that was told, I'm assuming that we have money in the budget to replace them, so yes.

MR. SCOTT: So the question is, are you looking at expanding that 12 beyond and is there any additional money in the budget this year, above the 12?

MR. MACDONELL: I think not. Actually if there's a place that I could expand them, I'd like to try to have more First Nations conservation officers. I think we only have - actually I'm worried to say that maybe the three we lost were them. We have only three First Nations conservation officers and I think we have 13 Bands and only three, so if it was possible to increase those numbers, I'd really like to be able to do that but I'm not seeing that in this year.

MR. SCOTT: Madam Chairman, and to the minister and your staff, I want to say thank you very much for your very helpful answers to questions over the last few days, actually. It is much appreciated. I am going to share the rest of my time with my honourable colleague, the member for Hants West.

MR. MACDONELL: You're welcome.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Hants West, with approximately 12 minutes remaining.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Thank you, Madam Chairman, and I'll do my best to wait for your response as we always seem to have troubles here. Minister, thanks again for the few minutes. I, too, want to talk a little bit about the harvesting practices of timber.

I remember a time back quite a few years ago, a gentleman by the name of Jack Hart used to do a lot of what they call select cut, I guess, at that time. They would go in with their machines and they would take out what we required. They certainly weren't doing any of this clear-cutting that we're seeing now. I guess we decided there's a need or clear-cutting works to some degree, and there's obviously arguments on both sides of that - I think more on the other side of not being happy about it.

More specifically, what we're seeing in my area - I'm kind of curious about it, you talked a few minutes ago about percentages, can you just refresh the percentage of each, select cut versus clear-cutting within this tonnage?

MR. MACDONELL: For NewPage?

MR. PORTER: Just that one example is fine. We'll start there, sure.

MR. MACDONELL: I think for NewPage just generally, I'm not necessarily stating around this agreement for biomass but I think for harvesting for the mill and all their harvesting practices, I think they clear-cut about 60 per cent and select cut about 40 per cent, with the caveat that because of their FSC certification they are to make that clear-cutting amount smaller over time.

MR. PORTER: Do you, as minister, have an opinion on whether or not those percentages are too high, for clear-cutting? I know that most, again, most that I talked to, minister, would say select cut is the way to go. They are just not happy and we'll get into that but do you, as minister, think that those numbers are reasonable?

MR. MACDONELL: I think that my experience - I used to work in the woods many years ago, I did it for about three years, cutting logs and pulp for a contractor for Scott Paper - that there are stands that you could clear-cut that would perhaps have a benefit. Do I think it is 60 per cent of the forest? I don't think that, I think it's less than that.

MR. PORTER: Thanks for that. What we're seeing and the member for Cumberland South had mentioned about up through Folly Mountain but if you drive Highway No. 101, it seems like every week that you drive it there's a new piece that I see - oh my God, what happened over there, it has just been cleaned, there are areas. Now I'm getting calls more locally in and around the Ellershouse area where they're right up to the residential areas. They hear the saws going and whatever, the machinery, and they're just worried that they are raping the forests back there for as far as the eye can see and they're wondering how can this happen and why does the government allow it to happen?

MR. MACDONELL: Well, I think we allow it to happen because it's within the law. The process that we've engaged within the department, which I would say would soon be coming to a close, at least the first two phases of that process on the Natural Resources Strategy, I'm hoping to get information out of that that will tell us where we should go around biomass clear-cutting. You would probably remember, it was your government that initiated it, that in 2008 there was a public consultation phase that Voluntary Planning conducted and then last Fall the department put together the four panels of expertise on parks, minerals, forestry and biodiversity. So there were three members on each of those panels of expertise and the Voluntary Planning component and the Phase 2 panels of expertise, that will come to me in the form of recommendations before the end of the month - at least hopefully. So then I think my staff will get the job of directing policy and I think the indication I gave to the panels of expertise was that the status quo wasn't an option.

Anyway, presently the only restriction to harvest really are what's in the regulations and that's around stream buffers, wildlife clumps, leaving coarse woody debris on the stands, and I think there may be something around the steepness of the slope that you can harvest but I can't remember that for sure, and maybe some other components that have left me. So that applies to everybody on private land and on Crown land. So, yes, it's one of the things I think, in Opposition, I've commented on. I was the Natural Resources Critic for seven years, I introduced a bill to ban clear-cutting twice, I think. So, for me, I really would like to see the industry move to harvesting that basically does the silviculture at the same time, you know, you leave a stand and leave it better than when you went to it.

Anyway, I've been deliberately holding fire based on what I get from the strategy process, I didn't want the people who - some of the people gave 18 days a month to this process and they were volunteers - so I didn't want them thinking that the minister was writing policy while they were doing this and pre-empt anything that they might do and basically say that I didn't deem it worthwhile to have them doing it, but if there are any templates you want to look at that might give you some notion of where I think the direction should go, it was around this NewPage agreement because we had no policy on biomass and I wanted this to kind of represent what the government was thinking. So FSC certification is the highest standard for harvesting practices and so that was one of the things, and no whole-tree harvesting.

Anyway, we'll see what comes out of the strategy process but we're certainly hoping that there will be information there that will guide policy fairly quickly and into the future in the long term.

MR. PORTER: I hope the strategy is rather quick because at the rate they're moving there won't be much left to worry about strategizing other than how we're going to replant because they are moving quickly through areas and leaving quite a path. A couple of things that you had brought up with regard to the steepness, there doesn't seem to be anything that I can see, I mean there are steep hills, there are areas where the deer and different animals had all run and hibernated for years, there are streams and waterways. There are all kinds of things. There doesn't seem to be anything stopping anyone from doing their clear-cutting, if that's what you were referring to.

Across the province - we used the NewPage example, minister - any idea across the province what kind of tonnage that we're taking from the woods annually by way of whatever?

MR. MACDONELL: I can't give you that although we have the Registry of Buyers which indicates their level of harvest. I used to have the numbers, there was an inventory done in 1996 and I used to have those numbers committed to memory. I can take a stab at it. I'm not sure of the worst, or the most intensive, harvesting time which was around 1999-2000, but I think the numbers that came out in the 1996 inventory, we were harvesting about 100,000 acres a year.

If you were to think about 30 cord to the acre, then multiply that by 100,000 and you're going to get 3 million cord and multiply that by two and you'll get tons. About 96 per cent of what we harvested was clear-cut.

MR. PORTER: I know we're running short on time, I only have a few minutes left. A couple of quick things I want to cover - one, obviously we don't believe there's enough scrap coming from the lumber yards to meet the need required for these plants like NewPage. Minas Basin's another one that, with the co-gen, want to use scraps. They're not interested in going out and doing clear-cutting, they'll step right up and say we don't want to clear-cut, we want the scraps that are left over that we're supposed to be talking about and whatever else goes along with that.

How far short are we with regard to what the lumber yards could potentially scrap out for us versus going in and just clear-cutting or select cutting for that matter?

MR. MACDONELL: I think the waste in mills would be a small amount. A number of mills actually are using their wood already, lumber mills, not necessarily big pulp operations. I think perhaps Bowater generates some electricity from their own waste.

[3:15 p.m.]

If we don't have the material, we're not going to have the projects. If it doesn't exist, the projects won't exist. We're not going to ramp up the projects and decimate the supply to fill them. There will be a limit and that will determine how many of these can exist.

MR. PORTER: Thank you. Just one last quick question. What's being done then to replace what's being taken? What kind of plan is in place now? You talked about a strategy so maybe there's an opportunity to speak to that as well. Obviously there's a huge need to replace. I think people would have less issues with what they are seeing if they were seeing immediately following that a replanting going in there. If that's the case and that's the plan, how soon?

MR. MACDONELL: I think under the Liberal Government, actually, prior to 1998, there was a real urgency - I might be wrong, but that was the administration that did it, but I'm pretty sure it was before the Progressive Conservative Government under Dr. Hamm - the sustainability fund was established where contractors or mills, or both, contributed to the sustainability fund and actually quite often was done through agreements. The landowner contributed one-third of the cost of the mill or the contractor, I think the mill, and the government contributed one-third.

Those dollars were dished out for silviculture projects and it was done based on the level of harvest because you had to pay on the amount of wood that was harvested. Then those dollars had to be spent in comparison to the amount of wood that was harvested. Basically, not entirely, but a lot of that was spent on replanting, but some of it was spent on pre-commercial thinning, some on spraying. At that time I think there were only six categories or maybe only five in the fund that you could get funding for different projects. Then we've gone to seven categories now, uneven-aged management is one.

When you're thinking you don't see anything happening right away, like an area gets clear-cut and I think the general rule of thumb is they wait two years to determine what the natural regeneration on the stand is and then go in and spot-plant what doesn't regenerate. There's an insect in Nova Scotia that if you plant right away, you run the risk of an insect killing those seedlings before two years, but it seems that if you wait two years, the impact by this insect is minimized, whether it leaves the stand or dies, or whatever. So they usually wait two years, see what the natural regeneration on the stand is, then plant according to how much seems to be missed. There would be some stands where the regeneration was fine and you had to go in and space those trees but other stands, you might not get much regeneration and you would have to plant maybe most of it or all of it. So on the planting side, it's generally wait two years to see what comes and make a decision then.

The one question you didn't ask but I can answer is around how do you get into the fund, like I'm thinking landowners should be able to call a mill and say I would like to have some work done on my land and that should be done. I don't think anybody should be turned away from that unless all the funding has been spent, you know, for that year but presently the landowners and the mills are not contributing to the silviculture fund. It's purely all 100 per cent cost by government and so there are dollars there and we really would like to make sure that silviculture work happens.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister, and at this point the time has elapsed for the Progressive Conservative Party. I understand there are no further questions, at this point I would ask that the minister offer closing remarks if he has an interest.

MR. MACDONELL: I do have an interest, I do have closing remarks, too. Madam Chairman, as I mentioned in my introductory remarks, I feel very proud of the work we've accomplished this year and I'm looking forward to the year ahead. As you know, in the coming months we will undertake some significant initiatives, foremost is the development of a new Natural Resources Strategy and we've spoken at length about that during the estimates debate. Over the coming weeks and months my department will provide Nova Scotians important tips and guidance on a number of issues. These are more typical DNR issues and ones that can have a direct effect on our lives.

Now that we are into the fire season, we want to remind Nova Scotians that they need to be mindful and take steps to prevent home and property damage. Although our officials are well equipped and prepared, we hope Nova Scotians will use extreme caution, especially during dry conditions. Those interested can check our department Web site to monitor the fire and weather index which is posted daily during fire season. The wildlife management group conducts education programs to increase public awareness of the prevention and hazards of wildfire. This education focuses on practical steps people can take to reduce the threat posed by forest fires. We often partner with local fire departments to help deliver this message and I want to say that when there are issues around grass fires, that's generally not us. Local fire departments take care of grass fires. If they accelerate into something bigger in the forest, that's us.

There are several things Nova Scotians can do to protect their homes. They can manage vegetation within 30 metres of their home, clear leaves and twigs from roof lines and gutters, keep firewood and other piles of wood more than 15 metres away from any structure, and store gasoline and other flammable liquids and gases in approved containers and away from any occupied buildings. As of April 1^st, burning permits were required in the Counties of Queens, Shelburne, Yarmouth, Digby, Annapolis, Kings and Lunenburg. Permits are required in all other counties beginning April 15^th. Fire season continues through to October 15^th. Keep in mind a burning permit is required before starting a fire within 1,000 feet of a forested area.

Today many people burning grass is a tradition - almost a right of Spring. Upon closer examination, however, the reasons for Spring grass burning are largely unfounded and rather than being beneficial, grass burning is destructive and dangerous. There are several myths about grass burning, some of which I would like to discuss so Nova Scotians can understand the facts.

Some think it's safe to burn grass as long as there is still some snow on the ground. In fact, within hours of snow melting, dead grass becomes flammable, especially if there have been drying winds. Grass fires burn hot and fast and spread quickly around and over patches of snow. Some also believe Spring grass burning controls weeds. Actually the weeds deposited their seeds in the surrounding soil last Fall and burning creates an ideal bare soil bed for the seeds to germinate.

Another myth is that Spring burning improves the new grass crop. However, burning actually reduces grass yield 50 per cent to 70 per cent. Some think burning makes the new grass come in greener when in actuality the new grass will be the same colour regardless of whether burning took place. It just appears greener due to the contrast against the bare blackened ground. Some believe that if they don't see much wildlife in a certain area, they can burn grass without threatening any animals. In fact, burning destroys the habitat of species you don't normally see, such as mice and moles as well as the nests and eggs of certain birds. If a fire gets out of control, larger animals can be caught by the flames and many species will lose habitat.

Another myth is that the lost habitat will grow back in a few months and the wildlife will return. Actually it may take several years to replace what was lost. Vegetation is often multi-layered with higher growth protecting undergrowth. Different species depend on different layers for food or shelter and a loss of lower layers and its residents will impact the species that prey upon those lost species. Some also think Spring burning is an easier way to get rid of last year's vegetation. However easy it may be, it's not always good for the soil. Burning results in most of the old plants' nutrients going up in smoke or remaining in ash that is washed away. Burning also releases carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Plowing old plants under or allowing them to decompose allows carbon and fertilizing elements to go back into the soil.

Some believe it's pretty safe to burn grass if there is a fire hall down the road. In fact, under the Forests Act, if you light a fire, you are responsible for it. If your fire gets out of control, you may be liable for the cost of fighting the fire, the destruction of other property, and face criminal penalties for violating burning regulations.

As you can see, there are quite a few myths on grass burning and it's important for Nova Scotians to understand the facts before they decide to start a fire. Our department takes a lead role in wildfire suppression on any forested lands, excluding those owned municipally and federally. This can be complicated and dangerous work that usually requires a combined effort of resources. When an incident occurs, there must be a safe, effective and unified effort that minimizes damage to property while maintaining the safety of the public and firefighters. For this reason wildlife training is an essential part of the management responsibility carried out by the Department of Natural Resources. Our fire crew members receive training in basic fire suppression, wildlife behaviour, wildfire behaviour, wildfire equipment, safety and fire line organization. As the level of responsibility increases, so does the level of training. As well, staff may receive training through national and international agencies.

Upon request, we also provide wildfire training to municipal fire departments, forest industry and community college students. Often referred as the fire duty room or fire control, the Wildfire Control Centre is staffed at least 12 hours a day during the fire season. The centre provides a coordinated suppression effort, province-wide support for suppression activities, and maintains a state of fire preparedness as warranted by fire conditions. Staff at the Wildfire Control Centre are continuously assessing fire weather conditions by: gathering the fire weather observations from across the province and applying forecast information; producing and distributing the provincial fire weather indices, both current and forecast, for suppression preparedness and public awareness; setting provincial alert levels for the aircraft fleet and associated air attack crews in response to the fire danger level; allocating resources provincially for fire suppression and crew support; and responding to reports of wildfires from DNR fire towers, the public through 911, the 1-800-565-2224 emergency line and other sources; and processing requests for firefighting support nationally and internationally.

The Department of Natural Resources uses several methods to locate wild land fires as accurately and quickly as possible. The members of the public report fires on a regular basis, usually via the department-maintained 1-800 number as well as 911. The information that is received is usually very accurate and in most cases reported during the early stages of a fire.

For more remote fires we maintain a system of 33 strategically placed fire towers that provide maximum coverage for each area. The towers are metal structures that range in height from 15 metres to 30 metres and are staffed during the fire season through the peak burning hours, which are usually 10:00 a.m. until 6:00 p.m. depending on daily conditions. When smoke is spotted, a compass bearing and an approximate location is determined and the nearby tower will attempt to determine the same information. The point where the bearings intersect should be the location of the fire. Tower operators can see 40 to 50 kilometres on a clear day and during high fire hazards, if haze exists, detection is supplemented with small fixed-wing aircraft.

When an aircraft is used, they fly a predetermined route and cover the gaps that the tower operators are not able to see. Thanks to the aircraft's mobility, it is possible to receive accurate information about the fires and to reduce response time. The average response time to a fire in Nova Scotia is 20 minutes due largely to early detection and mobile crews giving us a response time that is the envy of many other agencies across the country.

When a wild fire is detected, the situation must be thoroughly examined to determine where the fire is and where it could spread. It is dangerous to start suppression without further investigation. Once the fire has been evaluated, decisions can be made as to what ground suppression activities are required. Wild land fire suppression seeks to establish a control line around the fire as soon as possible, cool down open flames that are closest to the edge and separate burning fuels, trees, shrubs, moss, et cetera, from unburned fuels. The most commonly used method to achieve this is to apply water through a hose line that has been pumped from a fire truck or portable pump. In Nova Scotia we are fortunate to have an abundant supply of water. Some fires can require a coordinated effort between several agencies. A small fire may only require the services of two people and a back tank while a large fire - say 15 kilometres or more in length - can require hundreds of people and lots of equipment.

[3:30 p.m.]

Often the local fire departments will be on the scene before the Department of Natural Resources. If the situation escalates, the police, ambulance services, the forest industry, Emergency Measures Organization and other agencies may become involved. Ground suppression activities can be rather intense when the fire is at its worst. However, even after the fire is out, there can still be lots of work to do. It's possible for a fire to burn in fine combustible materials below ground without showing any signs on the surface. To prevent a flare-up hours can be spent looking for a small wisp of smoke. This could indicate a heat source below ground. If this is not done, the spark could surface and could once again become a running surface fire.

There are times when a wild land fire moves too fast or is too intense for there to be a safe ground suppression. In this case aircraft are used to slow or cool down the fire to allow the ground crews to resume their efforts. Our department has a fleet of five helicopters stationed in Shubenacadie. Any location in Nova Scotia can be reached within an hour and 45 minutes from Shubenacadie. They can perform many functions such as transporting people and equipment, dropping water, and also assist the reconnaissance efforts.

The Bell 212 carries a four-person crew and firefighting equipment. During a mission a 1,477-litre water bucket can be attached to drop water or foam. When all other firefighting measures fail, the services of large fixed-wing air tankers are requested from another province. Our membership in the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre facilitates the sharing of resources between agencies.

Another important caution for Nova Scotians at this time of year is around dealing with wildlife - a message that needs to be heard is "hands off". Every year Department of Natural Resources officers receive numerous calls about orphaned newborn wildlife that people have taken in as pets. Adopting wildlife as house pets is dangerous to the animal and rescuer and is prohibited in Nova Scotia. Expanding urban development means more housing is being built in traditional wildlife habitat. You must expect the presence of wildlife and learn to co-exist without interfering. What our wildlife biologists want Nova Scotians to know is if an animal seems to be hurt, lost or abandoned, call your local Department of Natural Resources.

There are a number of wildlife myths taken as fact. One is about the cute and helpless animals that seem to be abandoned. The fact is, in the Spring, wildlife is in abundance in Nova Scotia's woodland. Wild animals, like newborn deer, raccoons, skunk and birds, are often seen to be cute and cuddly, however, looks can be deceiving. People have been injured by wildlife they have treated as pets.

Another problem is that people want to leave some food out for animals this time of year. Everyone should know that animals are well adapted to finding food in the wild and do not need supplemental foods from people. Feeding wildlife to attract them for viewing is common, but is also the cause of the majority of nuisance wildlife problems. You may be feeding wildlife unintentionally by not storing garbage securely, leaving bird feeders out, neglecting to clean barbeques or littering.

There's also the myth where people think the poor little creature will never survive on its own in the forest. The fact is, wild animals, even newborns, have a great ability to survive on their own. Young wildlife should be left alone since they are usually not truly orphans. A parent is often nearby or will return soon. Your presence could cause the parent to abandon the young or to become aggressive and attack you. Any contact with wildlife can be risky or even harmful to you and the animal.

Yet another misconception is that it's a good deed to take a little creature in and give it a second chance. Our wildlife biologists will warn you that taking in a wild animal isn't like adopting a puppy or a kitten. Wild animals typically have special requirements for nutrition, shelter and space which non-trained people cannot provide. Most rescuers eventually realize the problems in trying to domesticate it and decide they don't want the animal any longer. Practically anyone who has decided to make a pet of a wild animal will tell you it's a serious mistake.

Young wildlife can grow up to be aggressive, especially when kept in captivity. Male fawns will eventually have antlers and may be easily agitated and attack during mating season. There is also the possibility of disease, including mange, distemper, rabies, Lyme disease and raccoon roundworm which has been transferred to people or domestic pets. Keeping a deer or a raccoon for even a short while is problematic. Creatures of the wild do not make good pets and captivity poses a constant stress to them. When raised without contact with their own species they fail to develop survival skills and fear of humans, virtually eliminating their chance of survival in the wild.

The law is clear and Nova Scotians need to know that raising or keeping wildlife is illegal under the Nova Scotia Wildlife Act. If an animal seems to be hurt, lost or abandoned, do not approach it. Observe its behaviour and then call one of our local Department of Natural Resources officers. Wildlife specialists will help determine how best to help the animal.

My department also provides some important advice on feeding wildlife in yards. In most cases this practice may cause more harm than good to the health and safety of both animals and humans. In most cases birds and other wildlife do not require food provided by humans. Maintaining a natural habitat throughout Nova Scotia is of greater benefit to wildlife populations. Most wildlife populations vary in abundance over time due to habitat conditions, disease, and weather severity. Feeding wildlife will increase local populations through higher survival rates which quite often interferes with the natural processes. As more animals survive, there are fewer resources for the group as a whole as well as for other species that depend on the same resources.

Eventually a shortage of food or disease will affect an unnaturally high population. Providing an abundant and consistent food source affects foraging patterns. Wildlife will continue to return to where they found an easy meal and in residential areas, the animal's natural fear or shyness of humans will decrease. This has a particularly negative impact on juveniles as they don't learn the necessary skills of recognizing and finding natural foods. Feeding frequently increases an animal's travel near or across roads and highways endangering not only the wildlife but the travelling public as well.

Feeding wildlife could bring ticks into your yard. Rats, mice, squirrels, raccoons, skunks and deer act as hosts for black-legged ticks, carriers of the bacteria that cause Lyme disease. In the areas where black-legged ticks are well established, it is stressed not to feed wildlife. Most raccoons in Nova Scotia carry an intestinal parasite called raccoon roundworm. When raccoons feed in residential areas there is an increased risk of pets and people being exposed to the parasite. While rarely transferred to people, if it is it can be very difficult to diagnose and treat effectively. Most confirmed cases have involved children who came in contact with raccoon feces.

Other activities can inadvertently attract wildlife. To reduce the chances of nuisance wildlife visits, Nova Scotians should always remove food residue from the barbeque and surrounding areas, practice proper household waste disposal and composting techniques, and feed pets indoors. While you may enjoy wildlife, consider the impact it may have on your neighbours. Animals, especially deer, seldom confine their visits to the property where they are being fed and can cause considerable damage to the shrubs, gardens and crops found on adjacent properties.

We are fortunate in Nova Scotia to share our environment with an abundance of wildlife. Attracting wildlife into populated and developed areas, however, has the potential to cause a host of problems for the animals and for ourselves, neighbours and pets. The best care we can provide wildlife to ensure their health and continued existence is to maintain quality habitat and healthy ecosystems where possible and keep wildlife wild.

We're also at that time of year when some Nova Scotians will see bears. Hibernation has ended and yearling bears are leaving their mothers and wandering into unfamiliar territory. Although there has never been a bear incident involving human injury reported in Nova Scotia, bears have the potential to be dangerous and destructive. When department staff investigate problem bear situations, they find food odours or a source of food that has attracted the bear to the area. Keeping garbage inside or storing it in a metal bear-proof container and keeping your barbeque grill clean and grease-free can prevent bear encounters at homes and cottages.

While there is an abundance of natural foods, bears will search far and wide following food odours into backyards. Bears are attracted to garbage, compost, green bins, pet food and bird feeders. There are specific precautions home and cottage owners, campers and hikers should take to reduce the likelihood of attracting bears. Bear sightings in residential communities and near homes should be reported to the Department of Natural Resources. Training staff will determine the appropriate action.

Finally, let me say thank you to the members here today and to all those who have asked questions about DNR since our estimates debate began on Friday. I have endeavoured to answer your questions clearly and accurately and also there are a few questions that have been left unanswered and I have already asked staff to acquire the information you've requested. I want to thank my department staff for their vigilance in being here and trying to help me with the questions around the budget.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Shall Resolution 15 stand?

Resolution E15 stands.

Resolution E47 - Resolved, that the business plan of the Nova Scotia Harness Racing Incorporated be approved.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E47 carry?

The resolution is carried.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: At this point we will take a short break so that we can proceed with the Department of Community Services. Thank you very much, minister, and thank you, staff, and thank you, committee members.

MR. MACDONELL: Thank you, everybody.

[3:42 p.m. The subcommittee recessed.]

[3:45 p.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: We are now ready to begin the Estimates for the Department of Community Services.

Resolution E2 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $971,562,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Community Services, pursuant to the Estimate, and the business plan of the Nova Scotia Housing Development Corporation be approved.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We will begin with an opening statement by the honourable Minister of Community Services.

HON. DENISE PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you very much Mr. Chairman. It is an honour to appear before this committee and to present the budget of the Department of Community Services for 2010-11 fiscal year. I would like to begin by thanking two key staff members for joining me today. Dave Ryan is our newly-appointed Associate Deputy Minister and George Hudson is Community Services' long-time Executive Director of Finance and Administration and, of course, of Community Services.

First off, I want to recognize all the front line workers at Community Services who serve our province so well. I am continually impressed with the dedication and professionalism of our staff and believe they deserve our thanks. There are many social workers in our department who face difficult situations every day and it didn't take me very long to see the dedication of the staff in Community Services. Many of us might not even be able to imagine how they manage these difficult situations, yet they consider it a part of their daily job. I truly consider them the heros and I want to publicly thank them for their service.

Overall, I am very pleased to report that Community Services' budget for 2010-11 will be actually increasing by $26 million. That brings our annual budget to $971,562,000.

Our government recognizes the vital work done by Community Services and the need to support people who access our main programs including Employment Supply and Income Assistance, housing and family and community supports.

I want to take this opportunity to talk with this committee about our housing stimulus plan. In the midst of a global economic crisis last year, governments recognized that they had a role to play in stimulating the economy. In partnership with the federal government, the Province of Nova Scotia developed a housing stimulus plan to create more affordable housing for Nova Scotians and to create jobs in the construction industry. I am pleased to report that there has been a lot of activity over the past year. Community Services is on track with its housing stimulus projects.

For your information, to date, $11 million has been committed for 552 units in co-operative and non-profit housing, $24.4 million has been committed for the development of 167 new units across the province for seniors and persons with disabilities, and $34.6 million has been committed for 950 public housing projects. Work to the province's social housing portfolio will complete needed repairs, reduce operating costs through energy efficiency and help seniors to live independently.

Of course, we wish - and we always wish - we had more money for housing. Having said that, we are right on track with delivering our housing stimulus money. We are beyond the halfway mark with about $70 million committed so far. We are making the most of every cent that we have. More than 150 affordable housing units are under development and in different stages of construction around the province. Hundreds of social housing units are under renovation. I'm looking forward to making some announcements about more communities that will be receiving housing investments in the coming weeks; it's very exciting to be able to make those announcements.

A wonderful example of our investment in action involved co-ops. I was thrilled in January to announce $3.1 million in federal and provincial funding to renovate and repair 131 units of the North End United Housing Co-operative Ltd. in North End Halifax. This investment will translate into more comfortable homes for hundreds of people who live in this co-op. The work will include new bathrooms, doors, windows and more.

This is not just an investment in housing, it's an investment in this community and the people who live there. I absolutely saw that the day that I was there at the announcement and the smiles on their faces, of having a new beginning within their homes. Our homes are our castles and everyone of us feels that way. So it's important that we have the security and the right to have our own home.

Co-operative housing plays a vital role in providing the affordable housing to people in need in Nova Scotia. Affordable housing isn't a one-size-fits-all scenario. Some people need a little more help to stay in their own home, some benefit from public, government-owned housing and others prefer the co-ops. I'm pleased to say that Community Services supports all of these options. We've taken some big steps recently to make affordable housing more accessible for those in need. Without the support of our partners, this couldn't have happened. It's about coming together to do what's best for the people.

In partnership with the federal government, Community Services is building and renovating affordable housing. We're upgrading social housing across Nova Scotia. Thanks to the $128 million in stimulus money, communities from Sydney to Yarmouth will benefit from this investment. We're also creating jobs.

History has shown that this type of partnership works. Our government is young, but we've hit the ground running to address the real problems facing families and individuals. With this funding, we are making it easier for Nova Scotians living on low and moderate incomes to access a safe, affordable place to live. Our housing investments are significantly advancing the province's housing and poverty reduction objectives, as well as providing a major stimulus to the economy.

With this new budget for 2010-11, I am so pleased to be a member of a government that wants to make life more affordable for its people. While we are tackling the economic challenges head on, we are also recognizing the needs of lower-income Nova Scotians. All political Parties believe and support the collective fight against poverty. The persistence of poverty in so many lives is something shared by countries all over the world.

However, Nova Scotia must do its part to alleviate the hardship that families and individuals face in their daily lives. We are investing $15 million more in income assisted programs this year - $15 million more - and this is for people whose employment insurance runs out before they find another job. They turn to income assistance and we know that because the downturn in the economy - I know we talk about the economy is taking a turn on an upward swing, which is very positive. However, if you look at the cycle, what happens is people initially applied for employment insurance and now they're at the point where they're running out of that. That's why we can predict there will be an increase uptake in income assistance.

This $15 million will go toward supporting our increasing caseload and the increasingly complex needs of our clients. That's due, in part, to the fact that our population is growing older and there are many more complex needs that are coming out of the aging population.

Our government is committed to helping Nova Scotians living in chronic poverty. I'm pleased the Department of Community Services, in conjunction with the Department of Finance, has established the Nova Scotia Poverty Reduction Credit. The credit is a significant step towards alleviating poverty. Our income assistance program shows there are about 15,000 Nova Scotians who are, usually because they have a disability or cope with barriers that prevent them from working. For these people, income assistance is their lifeline. These are the Nova Scotians we need to help first with a poverty credit.

[4:00 p.m.]

I am absolutely thrilled that we have done that and that our government has recognized that need at the same time we are facing the difficult financial situation. But we've heard people loud and clear and we've made that commitment and it's a wonderful step forward.

Nova Scotians who receive this credit will also be eligible for the Affordable Living Tax Credit. These two credits combined will mean, on an average, $313 more dollars in their pockets every year. This is significantly more than what has been given through income rate increases. That is another huge step forward. Those that are eligible for both of the programs, at the end of the day, will see approximately $26 more in their pocket on a monthly basis; that is substantially more than increasing the IA by $4 or $6 on a monthly basis. It's a huge step forward.

Last year, for example, the rate increase added up to $72 for the year. You can see the difference, the huge steps that we're taking forward with this budget. This is not just tweaking the income assistance program for those who are in need of help and that's the way it seemed to be in the past. This is a real change in direction. A new way of looking to provide support to people in need. That is a commitment that we have made, and I have made as Minister of Community Services, that we are going forward to change the attitude and the perception of Community Services. It's not the last resort - we need to make it into a stepping stone to a better life for those who are in need.

We heard from poverty reduction advocates and we listened. These new credits show our government's commitment to tackling poverty in a different way and we are doing this with our first budget in a tough economic climate. I am absolutely proud of the fact that my government has heard and has listened and are going forward. This credit will not be considered income at income tax time, which is certainly a benefit. That money is direct money in the pockets of those who need it most.

Mr. Chairman, I just mentioned the Nova Scotia Affordable Living Tax Credit which is another huge support to our Nova Scotians earning lower incomes. As part of our commitment to make life more affordable, government has introduced the Affordable Living Tax Credit. The credit is valued at $70 million and we'll put that money back into the hands of Nova Scotians living on low or modest incomes.

This important measure means that households earning less than $30,000 will receive quarterly payments similar to the existing GST Credit. It will return about $240 per household and $57 per dependent child every year. Those earning up to $34,800 will also receive a portion of the credit. This is the right decision for Nova Scotia families and as a new Minister of Community Services, it is one of the areas that truly concerned me - the gap that was growing between income assistance and those individuals that we sometimes term the "working poor". Therefore, this particular tax credit is a start in addressing those issues with people that can be considered the working poor. This is the first time this has ever been addressed in the Province of Nova Scotia.

Our government recognizes how difficult and expensive it is to raise a family these days. While we work as a government to live within our means, we want to help families and low income earners keep more of their hard-earned dollars. The Affordable Living Tax Credit does exactly that.

The tax credit will help Nova Scotians who may not be eligible for help through income assistance. The tax credit will help offset the increase in the HST and in the end make life more affordable for them by putting in about an average of $113 more in their pockets, which is over and beyond what the average amount they would be spending on the increase in the HST.

As I've said, we've heard from poverty reduction advocates and we have listened. Poverty is a complex issue that requires a number of different supports. This new tax credit shows our government's commitment to helping working Nova Scotians in need of a hand-up in a different way. We are doing this with our first budget in a tough economic climate. Also, Nova Scotians will not have to apply for this tax credit; it will be based on this year's tax return. Like the Poverty Reduction Credit, the Affordable Living Tax Credit will not be considered income.

I am delighted that the credit system that we've put in place is going to be so easy. People do not have to fill out application forms and go through that type of stressful process. This will automatically come to them. I think that's just a wonderful way for us to be able to support those in need.

Mr. Chairman, another program that I'm very proud of - that the Premier and I also launched - was an exciting new employment initiative in February called Target 100, and it is part of our poverty reduction strategy for people across Nova Scotia. Over the next five years, the Department of Community Services and the Nova Scotia Co-operative Council will recruit and train 100 people on income assistance for jobs with co-ops in their community. In many cases, these jobs will be in rural communities, which is very important also. At the announcement, everybody was so excited they were talking about Target 200 and Target 300, so there was the synergy in the room and the excitement on how this is just going to work in our communities.

The jobs may depend on their interests, skills and what co-op jobs are available in their community. Participants will earn wages that will start between $10.50 an hour to $15.50 an hour and come with medical and dental benefits, pensions, co-op shares, access to loans at reduced interest rates and more. As I said, the beauty of this program is that it offers jobs for Nova Scotians all over the province - jobs that meet today's labour market needs. Co-ops around the province know they will have a lot of jobs to fill over the next few years.

This program matches Nova Scotians looking for job opportunities with businesses in need of workers. Target 100 connects real people with real jobs in their community - good paying jobs with benefits, profit sharing and opportunities for advancement. It creates opportunities for Nova Scotians who need a helping hand to secure a job, raise their family and build a life.

This is the best kind of partnership, one where everybody wins. It is a win for the co-ops looking for employees, a win for Community Services in its efforts to provide people opportunities to become or remain independent and most importantly, a win for the Nova Scotians who find not just a job with one of the co-ops, but it's a true career step for them. It is such a solid foundation because it's not a lower paying job. As I said, it's not a job - it becomes a career and makes such a difference in the lives of those people that have the opportunity to be a part of Target 100.

It is a true investment in Nova Scotia. I love the fact that Target 100 not only provides that extra boost, that one opportunity an individual may need to get back on track, it also connects them with a whole new support network. Connecting the people we help with the Co-op Council will not only mean job opportunities it will mean access to profit sharing, training and reduced interest loans. This is a natural partnership because the Co-op Council and Department of Community Services have shared values and goals.

Both the Co-op Council and Community Services operates on values of self-help, self-responsibility, social responsibility and caring for others. Target 100 allows us to work together to support the healthy, productive people and communities that we believe in. Now, not everyone we serve will be able to walk right into a co-op job, but if someone is interested in one of these opportunities, we are prepared to work with the council to train them. The Co-op Council is so excited about this and I know that one of the first job placements was for a young mother who was able in the end to receive employment in a management position. Can you imagine her excitement to have that opportunity to be trained and have the first real good paying job, and it being a management position?

One of the other first training programs that we were offering through the Co-op Council was in teller training. This position was expected to be up and running in a very short period of time. This is what the government and community partnerships are all about - working together to help the province and the families that call it home. Target 100 recognizes the employment needs of the co-op community and helps to solve them by connecting Nova Scotians trying to improve their lives with fantastic job opportunities. Everybody truly wins. The results are stronger businesses, a stronger economy and stronger families. It's just one more step towards the change in Community Services to become a place of opportunity and a place of solutions, and not the last resort.

Also, I would like to let you know that I will be bringing forth legislation and amendments for the consideration of the House this session. Members and the public will recall the upsetting news that came out last year around abuse at residential care facilities. I can tell you I was personally distraught over this situation and over some of the cases that I heard about. I was determined to do everything in my power to make sure that abuse by a staff person to a resident will never happen again.

I had to take time to try to consider what was going wrong in the one particular facility and I realized because of the numbers of abuse cases that there had to be a systemic problem here. I had to sort of turn over every stone possible to see what that problem may be and I realized that part of the problem was in our legislation and how that was written and the lack of accountability and the issue of the province providing dollars but no accountability, along with those dollars coming from those who were receiving the dollars.

The experts do tell me that it is a very difficult situation, but there is a small percentage of abuse that happens across the province. But one case is too many for me and so it's my ultimate goal that I am involved in eliminating and working with my staff to eliminate those challenges or the possibilities - whatever we can do in our power. I will do whatever I can to prevent, and I hope that I can count on the support of my colleagues when it comes time to debate these changes as it appears on the agenda in the House.

What I plan to do is introduce amendments to the Homes for Special Care Act which will allow for more effective oversight of the boards of management of municipal housing corporations and operated adult residential programs, and to require that small option homes under the mandate of the Department of Community Services be licenced under the Homes for Special Care Act. That's one area - I know there has been controversy over large facilities versus small options. Many didn't realize the small options homes were not licenced. That was another area that we saw that there was a need to make changes and we're going forward to do that.

[4:15 p.m.]

I will also be making amendments to the Protection for Persons In Care Regulations to extend the protection from abuse to people residing in the small option homes under the mandate of the Department of Community Services.

Under this budget, we are actually hiring five new licencing officers to ensure that we adequately cover the related areas that require the licensing of the small option homes. As well, we are establishing an investigations unit to investigate allegations of abuse in the SPD residential facilities. We are taking a proactive approach, and these actions will provide greater security for residents in homes and facilities. It will ensure compliance with the new legislation and it will provide peace of mind for families.

Regarding our Services for Persons with Disabilities programs, I want to point out that in this budget, we have increased support to adult service centres. These are centres that provide day programs to individuals with physical and intellectual challenges. The Department of Community Services has increased funding to the adult service centres by $750,000 for this new fiscal year. Adult service centres were established in Nova Scotia to provide community-based vocational programs for adults with disabilities. Currently, adult service centres provide employment, skills, training and day program opportunities for adults with disabilities in communities across Nova Scotia.

I do want to recognize the work and efforts of DIRECTIONS Council for Vocational Services Society, which is a not-for-profit organization that represents 28 adult service centres throughout Nova Scotia. The centres have been lobbying government for quite some time, for many years, and I am so pleased that in my first year as Minister of Community Services that, with the staff and the support of this government, we have increased that funding to $750,000 extra this year. I think this is amazing. For years, they received nothing.

Adult service centres offer a whole variety of programming that I'd like to talk to you about so you have a little bit of awareness of what they offer. They brought in a day option program, and this is a program that is primarily recreational and leisure for life skills and of that nature. This is generally not intended as a vocational goal, it is most often an alternative to staying at home during the day for individuals with very high needs, or for those who are retiring.

Pre-vocational is an activity-based program where people with moderate to profound intellectual disabilities participate in a range of activities, generally within a centre-based location. Some vocational activity involving meaningful work typically takes place. Then there's vocational, and this is hands-on, in house, meaningful work experience for people with mild to moderate intellectual disabilities and who are able to work with minimal supervision. Vocational programming generally takes place within a centre location.

Another type of programming is community employment. This is a community-based employment either on a part-time or full-time basis for a wage or on a volunteer basis. No on-site job coaching is provided. Supported employment is a community-based employment, either on a part-time or full-time basis for a wage or a volunteer basis. On-site job coaching is provided, depending on individual needs, usually on a time limited basis.

Examples of services offered by adult service centres include such things as packaging of materials required by factories and corporations, envelope stuffing, bulk mail service, printing, catering, baking, recycling, used clothing sales, crafts, creation and retail, woodworking, furniture creation and refurnishing et cetera, paper shredding and sewing.

Our goal under all our Services for Persons with Disabilities programming is to provide a full continuum of services to meet the individual needs of Nova Scotians with disabilities. We will continue to work with our stakeholders to ensure these goals are achieved.

Another budget item I am very excited about, which received considerable attention and was contained in our government's platform of commitment, was the $500,000 investment in transition houses and women's shelters. I just met with representatives from the transition houses this week and we discussed the distribution of the funding which is to be allocated among the transition houses and the women's centres for the 2010-11 fiscal year.

Coming together and having those opportunities to sit and talk with me and staff has been an absolutely wonderful experience. We have received feedback from the transition homes and the women's centres on how they would like to see this funding increase being distributed. I've listened and we will be reviewing the option for the distribution of the funding in the next couple of weeks.

As I said, my April 7^th meeting with the Transition Homes Association of Nova Scotia was very positive. We agreed that we would remain in contact and continue to work together to provide support for women in need.

One thing that I discovered very quickly is there's a lot of water under the bridge from years gone by and unfortunately, a lot of promises that weren't able to be kept. I feel sometime I'm starting behind the eight-ball and what I expressed to those people around the table is to give me an opportunity, that we're turning a new page in the history of the province in accessibility with government and a minister and with staff. The way we're all going to succeed is to work together. No longer the 'they' and 'us' but working together as 'we', making those accomplishments and reaching the goals. It's not going to be easy and I explained that it's human nature that we have different opinions, but if we're not around the table together to work it out, we're not going to be able to do that. That's why I encourage all the advocacy groups and individuals to come and talk to me and let's work it out around the table.

Another area that is dear to my heart is foster families. Also announced in this year's budget is an increase to the rates provided to foster families and you do not know how happy I am about that. I worked very hard within the department to see that this took place. With all the different pressures we get from the many different areas of need in the province, this is one area that is so vitally important. What we were facing was a reduction in the number of foster families. You can imagine the financial pressures on the families and what we had to do is to resort to going to the families and ask them would they take another child under their wing because we were losing foster families. This is another step forward that we're able to offer an increase in the per diem for foster families.

As I said, foster families play a valuable role in our child welfare system. They provide children and youth in need with a safe and loving place to live. Many of these children are removed, through no fault of their own, from their family home for short periods of time until their home is once again stable and safe. Foster families are loving, caring people who want to give support and a safe home to a child in need. We know they do not do this to get rich.

However, we know that there is financial costs involved in caring for these children, even if only for a short period of time. We recognize this and as part of our commitment to make life better for families, I was pleased to raise our foster care rates by 10 per cent. This marks the first increase since 2006. Our government appreciates the dedication and compassion it takes to become a foster parent. We are proud to provide a 10 per cent increase in their per diem rates and will continue to find other ways to support the very important work they do. This brings our foster care rates up to an average of $605 a month. We know there is still work to be done, but it's a move in the right direction.

As well, we are making strides to promote foster care to more Nova Scotian families. Community Services will be launching a provincial recruitment campaign the week of May 9^th - 15^th. This campaign will include print, radio and online components. The foster care program has been re-branded to be more relevant and attractive to potential foster families. Potential foster parents are supported and our staff work diligently with foster families to educate them, train them and ensure they are ready for the responsibility of becoming a foster parent.

The department hosts information sessions on a regular basis across the province and these sessions are designed to inform potential foster parents on how the system works and answer any questions parents might have. I would appreciate the support of all members of the House of Assembly in helping to promote the value of becoming a foster parent to a deserving child. A lot of the areas that I'm responsible for through Community Services, the way that we are going to go ahead and make a difference in lives of the people of Nova Scotia, it's not to work against each other but to work with each other. I am hoping that my colleagues around the table will understand and realize that and take those steps towards that wish.

My department is committed to improving life for Nova Scotia families in a variety of ways so I would like to just touch on early learning and child care. That commitment starts with an investment in early learning which is so critical to a child's successful development as we all know. Child care providers and parents work together playing an important role in helping children develop the tools they need to become healthy adults.

In October I had a wonderful time with the children and staff at the Edward Jost Childrens Centre in Spryfield. I had the pleasure of delivering good news to the staff - $1.5 million to help them build and expand their facility. Eleven other child care facilities across Nova Scotia also received expansion funding to the tune of $6 million. In March, I announced $1.3 million in funding to help 45 child care centres repair or renovate their centres. Over the last three years, 129 daycares throughout the province have been the recipients of almost $3.2 million in repair and renovation funding. The shortest and the best route to making Nova Scotia a better place for all of us, of course, is to invest in our early years and invest wisely, which means investing in our children. Successful children build a successful province.

It was a wonderful day yesterday as I started my day at the Nova Scotia Community College Waterfront Campus in Dartmouth to make another child care announcement. It was absolutely fabulous to sit with the children and take a crayon and try to colour within the lines - it has been a while since I've done that so I wasn't as good as I used to be - and just see the innocence of their face and, you know, it makes my life - I wish I could start all my weeks like that. It would make them more enjoyable when I come in, especially on Opposition Day - it's just the innocence. When I was there speaking with the children at the end of my announcement, I told them that I liked to be known as the huggable minister and that's all I had to say and I had a swarm of wonderful little children running over to give me a hug, and that said it all to me.

So a little bit about the investment that we made yesterday. The department is investing $5 million to help make child care more affordable for families and provide more support for child care operators. As well, $2 million of this investment has created an additional 400 child care subsidies. This represents a huge break for Nova Scotia families who need affordable daycare for their child. For many it could make the difference between going to work or not. Under the Early Learning and Child Care plan, 1,100 subsidies have been created and each of them represents a promise - a promise to help make sure our children are nurtured and supported by caring families and communities.

[4:30 p.m.]

We're also eliminating our assessed daily parent fees for subsidies. Over the last several years, government has worked very hard and consistently to make sure that we can try to reduce this fee to make child care more affordable for our low income families and I'm very pleased to say now it's at zero. It was overwhelming yesterday, a young mom who has been in the college for three years and is ready to take a work term, came up and spoke to us for at least a half an hour and saying you do not know how this is going to affect my life and what a difference that this makes that I don't have to pay that subsidy.

Believe me, when you have that one-on-one conversation, lots of times we make decisions and we don't really understand how it trickles down to the grassroots level and really affects an individual, and when you're standing and looking at them in their eyes and they're looking at you and there are tears coming to their eyes saying you don't know what this means to me, it makes you so proud that you've had that ability and that you've worked towards that and this Department of Community Services has worked towards that for a number of years and we made it happen.

These changes certainly do show our commitment to making life more affordable. It will provide real benefits for families just like eliminating the provincial sales tax on children's clothes, shoes and diapers but we wouldn't be here without the expertise and the professionalism of the child care providers which is why we're introducing a new grant for child care providers which is called the Early Childhood Enhancement Grant. This new grant combines two existing grants into one and will provide an additional $2 million annually to child care operators for staff salaries and benefits, their professional growth for the child care educators and general operating expenses. A total of $15 million will now be made available on an annual basis.

We do all recognize just how important the role of child care workers is in our society but we have to work together as a society and as a culture to make people understand and see that, that these individuals with their passion and dedication to our children are professionals - no different than being a doctor, a dentist or a lawyer - and they need to be recognized for that, and we need to work towards that. I know that it's a long road but we're making strides towards making a difference.

While the Early Childhood Enhancement Grant will help to take some of the pressure off, as I've said, we know that the child care workforce is truly stretched. Nova Scotia is unique in many ways but not when it comes to child care staffing challenges. We do recognize that the issue not only exists here but across the country. Recruitment and retention of our child care workers is a key piece of the Early Learning and Child Care plan. We will continue to move forward to help attract and keep the talented and caring people who look after our children. These are wise investments - investments that are necessary to give our children the best start in life so they can develop into healthy contributing citizens. I'm happy to say that there is more to come.

In 2010-11, the department estimates that we will be spending $57.8 million in support of child care. Our government will continue to invest in child care in Nova Scotia in a meaningful way that benefits our province's children, families and child care professionals. We are working to strengthen the quality and accessibility of child care in Nova Scotia and to improve supports for low income families who need child care to go to work or school.

We are working to make child care more affordable and accessible for Nova Scotians. What works for a family in rural Nova Scotia may not work for a family living in urban Halifax and we do recognize that. That's why our Early Learning and Child Care staff and I have regularly worked with the stakeholders. We're involving stakeholders to ensure we are investing in the best way possible. The department will invest over $50 million in a meaningful way that benefits Nova Scotia's children, families and licenced child care professionals such as creating 250 new subsidized spaces in year two of our mandate.

The Early Learning and Child Care group has been very busy and to date here are some impressive numbers - 44 loans to increase the number of child care spaces, last release, Fall of 2009, 134 loans to repair and renovate centres; approximately $13 million annually in operating funding to licenced centres to support wages and benefits; approximately $1.3 million in funding for 278 energy upgrade grants; approximately $2.6 million in funding for 353 program enhancement grants; approximately $5.1 million in funding for 270 outdoor play-space grants; approximately $1 million annually to help recruit and retain staff; approximately $500,000 annually to support family home daycares; and approximately $8.3 million in funding to support children with special needs.

One area we would like to dedicate more funding and more attention is on the recruitment and retention of child care workers. We know that the child care workforce is stretched, as I said before, and Nova Scotia is unique in many ways but not when it comes to the child care staffing challenges. We do recognize that this is an issue throughout Canada, and recruitment and retention of child care workers is a key piece of the Early Learning and Child Care plan. What we will do is continue to move forward to attract and keep the talented and caring people who look after our children and the way we'll be doing that is through our accessibility and through our discussion with the stakeholders. They work at the grassroots level, they have the understanding and we have the appreciation for that and we have the staff and the ability to go forth with their recommendations and suggestions.

One of the areas that I have to say that I have been very proud that I've been able to turn a new page on is on the page of accessibility and to make my staff and myself available to speak to individuals and speak with advocacy groups. My schedule has been extremely busy. I have been involved in many different meetings and to just name a few, these also encompass the Status of Women and my responsibilities with seniors. We signed an MOU with the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities called the Age-Friendly Communities. I had the wonderful opportunity to present awards to youth at the Council for the Family Youth Achievement Awards Luncheon. I've met with the board of the Federation of Foster Families several times. I have met with community action groups on homelessness. I had a fabulous meeting this morning where we are coming together, not just the department but all those who are concerned with homelessness.

What happens is the people see a need so they develop a committee or a group to try to address those needs. We have a variety of groups throughout the province that are addressing similar and some different needs and what we need to do is bring those groups together. With respect to homelessness, what was wonderful today was to have the opportunity to sit around and speak with contractors and people who are in the industry of building affordable housing and get their insight, and so we are going to go forth with that.

I was very proud today because Claudia Jahn said to me as I left, do you know something, minister? I said, what? She said, you're the first minister who ever showed up to a meeting of this type. There is a connection that we have made and I'm not only proud of that, I'm just excited about the opportunities of working with people. I realize that there are going to be issues and challenges but as I said earlier, I don't think we can meet those head-on unless we're open, honest and let everybody have the opportunity to put those issues on the table.

I have attended meetings with the Community Child Welfare Boards, the AGM. We've all sat around the table with the wonderful meeting with the Mi'kmaq chiefs. I've toured Riverview, I've had meetings with the board of directors at Riverview and the CEO, the Pictou Women's Centre, the DCS regional offices in New Glasgow. I've visited the central region office with management staff. I've been involved in a tour with the Salvation Army and went to a Salvation Army event just this weekend, which was a celebration of 125 years, it was fabulous. I've attended housing meetings in Ottawa with the federal and provincial and territories. I've attended Phoenix House Nutcracker Luncheon. I've had several meetings with Easter Seals, who were formerly the Abilities Foundation.

I decided before Christmas that I wanted to take a tour of the homeless shelters and had a wonderful opportunity to do so. I met a gentleman who desperately wanted to get home to see his sister at Christmas and it meant the world to him and I'm pleased to say I was able to make that happen for him.

I also attended the Phoenix House Christmas Tree Trimming ceremony and their open house. I've been to Bonnie Lea Farm several times. I've had a round table meeting with the Early Childhood Development Committee, meetings with the Community Child Welfare Board chairs. We made announcements of the North End United funding. I attended the SOS fundraiser, meeting with reps from Adult Residential Centres and regional residential centres.

I had a very interesting and unique meeting with Keri-Leigh Cassidy from Dalhousie University with regard to seniors' mental health issues, and we were able to turn that meeting into a strategy to go forward with. I have met with the non-profit directors' associations. As I mentioned also, the Round Table on Early Childhood Development and the transition house association, just to name a few. I invite organizations and people to contact me. I just wish I had more time in the run of a day or a week, I can tell you that.

In closing, I would like to reiterate that it is an absolute for me to represent the Department of Community Services, Seniors and the Advisory Council on the Status of Women and hold the portfolio of Persons with Disabilities. Each day I do gain new knowledge and further appreciation for the work that we do with the people of Nova Scotia and for the people of Nova Scotia. I do want you to know that together - I mean together - we will continue to do our best to serve the House and all Nova Scotians.

I would like to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to provide you with my insight. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, minister, for your opening remarks. The time is 4:44 p.m. The minister's opening remarks were 54 minutes, thank you for so much detail. (Interruption) I am not sure, I know that now we will have one hour for the Liberal caucus, followed by an hour for the PC caucus and I understand an hour for the Independent member for Dartmouth North.

HON. MANNING MACDONALD: Obviously there's not going to be three more hours of discussion here today. I want to know what time we're finished.

AN HON. MEMBER: At 8:00 p.m.

[4:45 p.m.]

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: No, we're not finished at 8:00 p.m., we're finished long before that. I want to know what time the estimates are over. Estimates are only four hours a day.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, we'll get a calculation for you shortly. I am just filling in as chairman here and I do have to leave in a couple of moments, but we'll get that information for you.

We will begin with the hour for the Liberal caucus. The member for Bedford-Birch Cove will begin.

MS. KELLY REGAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I will be sharing my time today with the member for Cape Breton South. I just have a couple of issues I'd like to question the minister on today.

In the early part of this year, I was visited by a constituent who was very concerned about the issue of wages for home support workers. His mother has suffered some strokes and she lives with his family. They have home care workers come in during the day when he and his wife go off to work. They've been very pleased with the care they have received from the home care workers over the last number of years.

But they were quite shocked to discover that their home care workers were not receiving at least minimum wage. In fact, they were making less than minimum wage. Now my understanding is that this constituent was in touch with the NDP before the election and in fact, the Party was very interested in the issue. They wanted to bring it to the media.

After the election, my constituent again contacted the department and thus began his real frustration. From August until December, he could not get an answer out of the department. Finally, in December, he received word that, in fact, his mother's caregivers would get minimum wage. At this point he asked two things: first of all, these workers - primarily it's one, a 65 year old woman - that she receive back pay for all the time she had spent earning less than minimum wage and that the department guarantee they would not cut back the hours given to his mother, who was getting quite a bit of care each week, 58 hours per week.

In fact, I have to say that I was pretty shocked because in fact it was only when he threatened to go to the media they actually agreed they would pay minimum wage. My questions are: Is it standard practice not to pay minimum wage to home care workers? Number two, if so, why? Number three, when will it stop? And number four, why have these workers not received back pay?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before calling on the minister for a response, in replying to the member for Cape Breton South on timing for today, I have done the calculation and it would be 5:58 p.m. But, I guess there was a break between Natural Resources and the Department of Community Services and that break looks as if it was only for about eight minutes, so I think we're going to go until about 6:06 p.m. That's information only and now I will call on the minister to respond.

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you. What I would like to say to the honourable member is the fact that we did recognize that was an issue. The NDP saw it as an issue and as you can appreciate, we've been in government less than a year so things do take time to initiate and change so that's what we have done. We are working with the Department of Labour and Workforce Development. We recognized it as an issue and so going forward, the caregivers will be paid up to minimum wage.

The way the system works best is, we provide the funding to the individual or the family and they act as the employer and they negotiate that salary, but they will have the opportunity to pay up to minimum wage.

You had asked about back pay - the difficulty as you could understand is, how far do you go back? We saw it as an issue, we decided that it had to change so we did put action in place to make a change.

MS. REGAN: My concern is, what you're saying is they can pay up to minimum wage. I understand the department used the person who's being taken care of as the person who contracts. The problem is, in fact, she doesn't pay them. It gets paid by a bookkeeping service which you replaced in December. It used to be Trident Bookkeeping Services and now it's another one. She doesn't handle the money or anything like that, number one.

Number two, some people are getting retroactive pay so I don't understand why the caregivers for the woman in my riding are not receiving retroactive pay. Number three, why not just back date it to when you guys took over? You were out there making promises saying you were going to help these people and now, in this particular case, she hasn't got any back pay. To suggest that, in fact, an incapacitated woman is the employer is not accurate. You are the employer and you can pay people minimum wage. To say you can pay up to minimum wage is, quite frankly, shocking to me. What does that mean, up to minimum wage?

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: What up to minimum wage is, as I mentioned, it's an employer-employee relationship. They negotiate what the payment will be and we will provide the funding that they're able to pay, up to minimum wage. But it's the decision between the employer and the employee and what they negotiate.

MS. REGAN: See, this is what drove my constituent completely bonkers. I mean, I've got e-mails here that go on and on. To suggest that they have negotiated with this woman is simply not accurate at all. You folks decided to increase the amount. That tells you right off the bat, she doesn't have control over what she's negotiating because she had to actually get the money from you. So to say that she is negotiating is simply not accurate, number one. Number two, why are some people getting back pay and her caregivers are not?

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: It is not the fact that it's inaccurate; the money is available. As I said, going forward we recognized that there was in issue in the past so the decision through the Department of Labour and Workforce Development, we've worked with them, the money is available for them to pay minimum wage but they're considered the employer so that money will be available. I can't talk, as you know, on a particular individual's circumstances and I'm more than willing, when we're finished, to take that file and work with you on that. The money is available now for that individual to pay full minimum wage.

Those who received retro pay were people that filed a complaint with the Department of Labour and Workforce Development and they were honoured with the dollar amount for the minimum wage in retro because of filing that complaint with the department, so that is something that is available.

MS. REGAN: Thank you for that piece of information, but does it not seem wrong to you that someone should have to file a complaint to get the money from the department when it's really quite obvious in the other cases that the department was in error? Someone shouldn't have to go file a complaint to get the money owed to them. Once it comes to the department's attention, they should be doing the right thing and paying the back pay to these people without them having to go through all this rigamarole.

If we're talking about a number of times during your address, we talked about direct money in the pockets of those who need it most. I submit to you that a 65 year-old caregiver who has been making less than minimum wage is a person who needs direct money in her pocket.

I'm quite frankly appalled that these people who would not have the wherewithal or the knowledge to file a complaint are now expected to go file a complaint against their employer. I would certainly hope that any communications from the department would not have left either my constituent or her caregivers with the impression that their situation could be changed in terms of employment, if they were to make any noise.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there a question there? Did you want to respond, minister.

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: A couple of things to understand is that these are clients that the Department of Community Services inherited from the Department of Health. I do understand the member's concern with respect to retro pay but as I mentioned earlier, how far do we go back? We came in as a new government. We saw that it was a problem and we made a change to go forward and to recognize that there was a need to have the ability to pay minimum wage. The difficulty is in a situation like this, is exactly what I said - how far, where is the cutoff point of going back?

So what we want to do after recognizing that this was an issue in our province is to go forward but yet at the same time each and every individual in that circumstance has the right and the ability and the means to go forward. If they want to initiate a claim for retro pay, there is a system and a process in place for them to be able to do that.

MS. REGAN: And as minister, you're guaranteeing there will be no retribution or anything like that if they, in fact, file this complaint?

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Why should there be? There shouldn't be.

MS. REGAN: So you're guaranteeing there won't be any . . .

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Well, if a case arises, what I would hope is that it would be brought to my attention so I can deal with it. I mean, absolutely there should not be.

MS. REGAN: I would like to move on now to the transition houses and the additional monies that were provided for transition houses and women's centres for this year. When I met with the head of the transition houses, it was pointed out to me that, in fact, $500,000 sounds like a lot of money but when you divide it up among the number of transition houses and women's centres that we have, that's an average of $27,000 per centre which doesn't really work out to a whole lot of money.

I do understand that you are inheriting a situation where the budgets for these transition houses did not increase year over year and that has resulted in layoffs for the transition houses because, in fact, salaries were going up but they weren't actually getting more money at this time. So my question is, do you feel transition houses are adequately funded at this point?

[5:00 p.m.]

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Certainly I do not think that they're funded adequately. As you mentioned, we inherited a situation where they haven't received funding for years. I would like to make the point that the salaries actually have gone up over the years; they have received increases in salaries. It has been the operational funding and that's where the $500,000 is new monies for the transition houses and the women's centres.

I know that you can argue that it's not a whole lot of money but I think that it does show our commitment going forward with this tough financial situation in our province, that we have made that commitment, and we saw also the need that that money had to be pushed up in our budget. We were going to do it the following year for 2011-12 but we, once again, listened and heard people, so we did move that up.

You know, I sat around the table with the transition houses, I've sat and I've spoken to those who are responsible for the women's centres. One of the approaches that I take is absolute honesty - I'm not happy where this situation is, it's what it is. We need to go in a forward motion, can't keep talking about history because I can't change it, you can't change it, nobody can change history. So what is the best way to go forward? My personal feelings is that the best way to go forward is to develop partnerships and relationships. Also, one of the things that I expressed to any of the groups that I'm meeting with is that I know the first time that government officials ask you, well, what are your programs, what are you doing, there's this real fear that, oh, my gosh, I can't tell them because they're going to take money away. So what I have asked people is to say, put the money aside, I'm not even talking about money. What I'm talking about is, what are your strengths and what are your weaknesses? If we can identify your strengths and your weaknesses, there are others out there, other groups that offer similar programming - whether it's a woman's centre and a transition house, or another group in one of our communities - where actually one's strength is somebody else's weaknesses.

So what we have to do is, in a strategic manner, discover what those strengths and weaknesses are, who are all the groups, and to go forward and develop what you would call as a hub model to build on your strengths. So you take away your weaknesses and you give those weaknesses to somebody else because it's their strengths. So it does not have to mean a cut in money. Actually in some circumstances, it may mean that you have proven that you actually need more money but it gives us a clearer vision. It gives us a better ability to strategically plan and the only way that you're going to do it successfully though is that everybody has that opportunity to participate.

Now, one thing with the transition houses and the women's centres that we wanted to do - and they made the decision, the transition houses, to decline the offer - but we had initially said, well, why don't you, the groups of transition houses and the women's centres, get together and make a decision on how you divide up that $500,000. They were not interested in doing it that way. They came back and said you, as government, would you please make that decision. What I leaned is that there's even, you know, people are there for basically the same reasons but there's some competition even amongst themselves and different feelings of the services they offer. So we have a long road to repave, I guess I would have to say, in the sense of building relationships not just with us as a new government but also building relationships among these organizations and advocacy groups that are out there.

I think the reason that they're in the situation that they are is, once again, because of the lack of dollars that we have as a government, the former government and ourselves, to be able to provide them with all their needs. So what happens is that it ends up pitting each other, they're against each other for the mighty dollar. So I'm trying to develop a process that we take that off the table. We're not even discussing money. What we're discussing are your services, what you offer, where your strengths are in that, what your needs are, and that takes time but I think it is a positive direction that we go in.

Once again, I can say that at one of the meetings with all the shareholder groups that I brought together, said it was the first time ever that they were actually brought into a room together. So what we're doing going forward is having even workshops where there are each able to stand and take half an hour of time and describe to the other individuals what they do, what services they offer, where their strengths are, where their weaknesses are, so people can understand that it's not just their organization that has many needs and requires funding, that there are many people sitting around a table and it creates more empathy amongst the groups and understanding. Then what you see transpiring is suddenly this, oh, yes, we are working for a common cause, oh, did you know that, you know, we used to do this and we have resources in this area that we can offer you. So then it becomes a sharing of resources.

So I guess in closing of your question is the fact that we have started a process to open up the lines of communications with the transition houses and the women's centres and that we are going forward with what's the best way to allocate those dollars that we have in this year's budget.

MS. REGAN: My understanding is, in terms of the salaries, the staff were granted salary increases over the last number of years. However, because the operational budgets did not increase, those salaries took up a greater portion of the operational budget. So, in fact, what you saw was transition houses laying off staff because they had to give their staff an increase.

They also faced challenges around the fact that a lot of the time you can't have one staff member on duty alone in a transition house because of security reasons. To say that salaries have been going up, that's great, except they weren't get any extra money to meet those salaries. Salaries took up a greater and greater proportion of their operational budget. I just wanted to make that clear.

If we are committed to our transition houses, I am curious - the Domestic Violence Strategy report was submitted to both DCS and Justice in July 2009. Neither department has responded, there's been no press release. I'm wondering, are we going to do anything with this plan, is it now gathering dust? I think we both know that domestic violence has not gone away since July 2009 and I wonder what's happening with that?

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you. A couple of things first on the transition houses, just to give you some background information, and I do understand what you're talking about with respect to the challenges faced with the salaries and the operational funding.

As I said, not that it's a whole lot of money, but the $500,000 I do believe will make a difference. It gives an indication of a go forward direction with our government. Some information I think is important to understand the context of the transition houses in the province. If you actually compare it to the other Atlantic Provinces, Nova Scotia provides the most annual funding for transition houses and the highest amount of funding per individual transition house.

In 2009-10, Community Services provided $5.19 million in annual funding to the nine transition houses, the Transition House Association, the Naomi Society and the Colchester Sexual Assault Centre. The salaries of transition house staff were increased by 2.9 per cent in 2008-09 and another 1 per cent in 2009-10. This is with respect to women's centres, Nova Scotia is one of only four provinces in Canada that actually funds women's centres and we fund them at a higher rate. In 2009-10, Community Services provided $1.27 million in core funding to eight women's centres which equaled $159,700 per centre.

I think it's important to see that there is a direction there. There has been a commitment. There still is a commitment. We're working on what we can do in order to work together to find out if there are creative ways of funding and that's where the brainstorming comes in and the discussions.

With respect to your question on domestic violence, it's extremely important to us. It's not sitting on a file cabinet at all. I am a great believer in the fact that things happen for a reason and that timing is vitally important. As a new government and as a new minister, I think it's very important for us to be strategic in how we go about rolling out any of the programs and also in how we deal with the issues like domestic violence and the importance of having everybody around the table.

There's so much overlapping, as you know, with a lot of the different advocacy groups and their support towards working with the domestic violence issues. I am establishing those relationships with the women's centres and the transition houses and that's part of the discussion of how do we go forward that we build a strong foundation. What I don't want to do is to do things on a piecemeal basis just to say that we've done them. I want them to have a long-term affect on the province and for those people that we are helping. So we have to make sure that we are building a strong foundation and with respect to the domestic violence issue, that is part of what we need to go forward with and make sure that we're crossing all our t's and dotting all our i's with regard to that particular issue.

MS. REGAN: With respect to the minister, when you refer to timing being vitally important, I am sure there are women around this province who would like to see that rolled out sooner rather than later. I would urge you - while being strategic in rolling out your plan and I understand that you don't want to do it on a piecemeal basis, I would suggest to you that time is of the essence. I would hate to see more cases of domestic violence happen because we were waiting for the stars to line up in the perfect position. I think it's really important to move forward to this. Although the birth circumstances of that particular group getting together were, I would say, less than flattering for the previous government, I think the work that was done on it was good. I think we shouldn't let that report sit around any longer, we need to do something.

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I don't want you to have the impression that it just has been sitting waiting until we line up our stars. There have been many discussions going on within the department and also with the stakeholders. As recent as March 31^st, there was a meeting of our deputy ministers and key staff individuals with regard to the sexual assault and the domestic violence report. It is not just sitting there, action is taking place. The now action is to fit it into our strategic plan.

MS. REGAN: At this point, I'd like to turn over the rest of my time to the member for Cape Breton South.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cape Breton South.

HON. MANNING MACDONALD: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. How much time do I have?

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Almost half an hour.

[5:15 p.m.]

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: I'd like to welcome the minister and her staff here today. The opening remarks of the minister went on for near an hour and she painted such a wonderful picture that it's going to be difficult to ask any questions about the Department of Community Services because everything seems to be alright. I would like to find out who the fiction writer was for that opening remark because it qualifies for a Pulitzer Prize in misinformation, as far as I'm concerned.

Madam Minister, everything is not alright as you portray it and you used the word "wonderful" at least 10 times in your opening remarks, and probably more but that's the ones I counted. Too bad that there is little meat on the bones of all the statements you made about everything that's right in your particular department. Everything is not alright in the Department of Community Services and you know that.

I can say in starting off that the exercise that you went through about telling the few of us that are here about everything being alright in the Department of Community Services is not, in fact - if nobody else is listening to this except us, then I would suggest to you that that speech you made today, perhaps you should make that out in public somewhere, maybe in some community-based groups that are set up to listen to ministers who come around every once in a while and tell them how the social service system in this province is evolving.

I can tell you that the groups that I talk to would take a great deal of exception to your remarks, talking about all the wonderful things that you've done such as Christmas tree lightings and meeting with groups and that kind of thing. The people out there that are hurting in this community don't want to hear that you went to a Christmas tree lighting or that you met with some groups that you wanted to meet with. The groups that I questioned you in Question Period on, Madam Minister, were groups that you didn't meet with or that never even returned calls.

A good example of that is the foster care that you made mention of. The foster care parent in New Waterford wrote me after I asked you the question in the House, thanking me for asking it because he then got an apology from the deputy minister - not from you, he got an apology from Deputy Minister Judith Ferguson on the fact that you didn't get back to that person for six months. If that's the kind of communication you're employing as a minister in this department, then I think that the statements you made in your opening remarks should be perhaps revised.

As I said, there's very little meat on the bones of a lot of the things you've been talking about in your opening remarks and subsequent answers. Let me get into one contradiction in particular. The Target 100 that will train 100 individuals over the next five years - your words in your opening remarks. On your Web site, the Target 100 program is designed to recruit, train and employ 100 DSC clients over the next two to three years - not five - at co-op businesses around the province.

My first question to you, Madam Minister, would be, why the contradiction between your five year statement and the Web site which says two or three years and how many DSC clients have taken part in the program so far?

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: A couple of things I would like to address to the honourable member. Number one, I'm going to first focus on the foster care letter to address it, to provide people with the actual and the real facts.

It's nice that you can pull out of that, one Christmas tree lighting that I spent with youth at the Phoenix centre and I think that if you ask them about the minister being there and how pleased they were that the minister shows them support, I think you'll get a totally different answer, that it was just a Christmas tree trimming event. To them, it meant a lot to be recognized. You have to understand that a minister making herself available and meeting with these groups is quite unique and I'm hearing that around the table from a lot of these groups. Those types of meetings have never really taken place in the past or they were a quick meeting in the minister's office without any go-forward strategy and . . .

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Madam Chairman, if I could interrupt here. I didn't ask her a question about that, I asked her a specific question.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, member, I believe that

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I have an opportunity to answer in any manner I want.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: She's rambling, she spent an hour on her opening statement, she's rambling on every question that's being asked of her here, trying to run the clock . . .

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, excuse me.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: . . . and I'm telling you Madam Minister, I asked a specific question, I'd like an answer. Not a 10 minute . . .

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you, the minister has the same rights as the member has to . . .

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: The minister has to be responsible in answering the questions.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: And she has the floor. She has the same rights as the member (Interruption) Excuse me, folks. The member has the right to take his time in presenting a question, and the minister has the same right to take her time in presenting an answer. Thank you. Minister of Community Services.

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you. As I said, I'm speaking about taking a different approach in Community Services. That approach is to change the way that Community Services, the perception that has been in the public for some time and that is that it was an approach of a last resort and we're going forward to change that, that people see Community Services as a place that they can go to for the support to make a difference in their life and that it's a stepping stone towards a better life.

In order for me to do that, there is one thing that some people don't understand that's vitally important and that's called relationships. That's where, as a new minister that's only been here for nine months, that is vitally important for me and for anybody who wants to make a difference and make a change, it is to build a relationship and to be able to have the opportunity to sit with organizations and express to them my concern, my caring about the fact that changes do need to be made.

One vitally important, well, there are actually two important words, one is called respect and trust, and we are not going to be able to go forward in Community Services and make the necessary changes if the respect is not there and if the trust is not there, whether it's from an individual or whether it's from a group of individuals, or an advocacy group. So that's what I'm doing and it has been successful, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, and I used the word wonderful many times because I think this is the first government in a very long time that has gone forward to make such positive changes. You take the reality of a nine-month period and what we have been able to accomplish in Community Services in nine months compared to governments who have sat for 10 years and maybe even able to relate their opening speech for . . .

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: . . . I asked her specific questions on the department program. I didn't want her to go over her opening remarks all over again. I asked her a specific question and I would like to get an answer for that question that contradicts what she said in her opening remarks about the five-year program and what the Web site says about a three-year program and I asked her specifically how many clients have taken part in the program? I didn't want another half an hour of patting herself on the back about the department. I just want an answer to a specific question.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you, member. I do believe as well, as I stated earlier, you have the right in the amount of time that you require - you have an hour at this point, and your Party can come back to an hour. You took the time to preface your question with your comments, and the minister has the same right to preface her comments in response to your question. Thank you.

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: And as I had mentioned, it's vitally important for us to go forward as a province and as Community Services in order to change the perception that has been there for years, it's quite a task and the initial steps to change that task is exactly what I am talking about and that is to build trust, respect, and build these relationships. That's exactly what I have been doing in the Province of Nova Scotia and with these different organizations and groups.

So what that does is, it enables us to go forward in a more strategic manner than just a piecemeal manner which my understanding coming in as a new minister, I've seen a lot of the band-aid approach and I want to change that, that when we're making decisions, the decisions that we're making are on a long-term basis.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Madam Chairman, the minister is trying to run the clock on me and I resent that. I asked her a specific question 10 minutes ago and she's still not answering the question. I asked a specific question of this minister and I'm not getting an answer. Now, I'll either get it today, tomorrow or Friday, or next Monday, but I'm going to get it.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you, member, and that is certainly within . . .

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: I don't want to hear her opening remarks any more and I want an answer to the question I'm asking.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you, member.

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: As I mentioned, it's very important for us to build on those relationships because once we build on those relationships, then we develop that trust and we can do long-term planning together. So I believe, as the member brought forward and his issues were the words, wonderful so many times and I think that it's because there are many things that have happened in the last six, nine months, that is absolutely wonderful. I know that there are issues and there are many things that we have to do and work on and that's exactly what we plan on doing. We can't do it overnight. We have to be realistic about how we're going to go forward and it's like building a house, you have to build a strong foundation. So that's what we're doing with these . . .

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Madam Chairman, will the minister please answer my question that I asked her close to 15 minutes ago now. All I want is an answer to a question, the direct question I asked her. I don't want to hear her opening remarks again about how wonderful she is and her department is. I want an answer to the question.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Perhaps if we could allow for her to finish, she could respond to your question. We continue to be interrupted. I understand your passion about it, I appreciate that. (Interruption) I appreciate that and in time, minister, I'm sure you will answer the question.

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: I will answer.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Answer the question, Madam Minister.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: She has the right, again, to utilize the time that's allotted for the Subcommittee on Supply in this Chamber and, as you have noted, we have the ability to come back tomorrow and the next day, and the next. (Interruption) Excuse me, should we require that, the time will be allowed for it. Thank you.

The honourable Minister of Community Services.

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Thank you, Madam Chairman. As I've reiterated, the reason that I am explaining what I'm explaining is so that you have an understanding of the direction - and I know that it's difficult for some to understand that we actually do have a long-term plan and we do have a vision. That may be something new for some people in politics so it's hard for them to understand that. So that's why I'm relating what I'm talking about.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Madam Minister, there is a contradiction between your remarks and the remarks that are on the Web site. That's all I want, what is the contradiction? Would you please answer that?

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: As I mentioned, I wanted to address some of the other issues . . .

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: I didn't you ask you for a lot of information, Madam Minister. I asked you a specific question and you're avoiding answering.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Just wait it out.

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: What I would like to talk about, as I said, it's interesting how people like to make comments and you're not able or want to hear the comments back, but with regards to one of the issues that was brought forth and the attack on this . . .

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Just answer the question.

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: . . . whole question about the foster care letter and the reason, and I'm going to give an explanation because of the fact that it's very important to me as the Minister of Community Services and the representation of the Department of Community Services that we do have a timely return in terms of answering individuals who contact us. I read every single e-mail that comes through to my government address and this particular one that the member is referring to, it was very disturbing to me to discover that the department didn't (Interruption)

So what I want to explain so the knowledge and people understand what happened in that particular circumstance, the department receives hundreds of e-mails, as you can understand, and hundreds of letters. Once in awhile there will be one of those situations where it falls through the cracks. I saw the initial e-mail that came from this particular individual and I did respond to that e-mail and that was in the letter.

[5:30 p.m.]

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Madam Chairman, that has nothing to do with the question I asked the minister, nothing whatsoever. I asked her about the contradiction between her statement today, her opening statement, and the government's Web site. That's all I want and if she doesn't know the answer to that, she should tell me she doesn't know the answer.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: For clarification, member, did you or did you not reference e-mails in your preface and not in this one?

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: That was before.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Before when? This is your first time up.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: In my opening remarks.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Right.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: I asked her a specific question.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: So she's responding to . . .

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: I didn't ask her a question about that, I asked her a question about this.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: But she has the floor, she's utilizing the time that she feels is required to respond to the comments that were made.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: She doesn't know the answer, Madam Chairman, and I suggest she doesn't know a lot about what's going on in her department but she has a good ghost writer, or at least a fiction writer there, with those opening remarks.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Minister of Community Services, you can proceed.

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: What was referenced in the remarks, and that's why I'm responding to them, is the fact that particular - I will get to the answer to your question. With respect to the reference that was made to that situation, I did respond to the individual myself through an e-mail. My response to the individual was that, this would have been back in October, as a new minister, I had to review the foster care rates and the situation with the foster care program and become more knowledgeable with respect to the foster care program in the province.

What happened was, after it was brought to my attention I went back to the department in order to find out why. I understand that this individual back in February - it wasn't six months ago - that particular email that came through, I believe on February 6^th or 12^th unfortunately was not logged in our system at DSC so that's why I didn't see it and that's why the deputy minister said that she would call the individual. It was an apology but it was also an explanation to allow the individual to know that the minister was not aware of the fact that he did not get the second reply to (Interruption) I am speaking on the references that were made.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: All I want is an answer on the Target 100 program.

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: And you will get one. I just wanted to be clear that that was the situation. The deputy minister took it upon herself to call the individual because one of the things that are very important to me and to our department is the open communication. If there is a mistake made, then we will admit to the mistake and apologize.

The deputy minister wanted to make the individual aware that what happened in that circumstance was that the minister did not know that the second response did not get logged so it did not get sent out. In fact, the deputy minister said the gentleman understood that and there was no issue with it at all. He realized that those things can happen and he was extremely happy at the end of the conversation because the deputy minister was able to inform him, for his work in foster care, that finally the 10 per cent increase in per diem. So he was very pleased with the fact that this government went forward with that foster care increase in the per diem.

In conclusion to the question that was asked, coming to Target 100, and the reason why we're very pleased with it and - I will say the word again, a wonderful program because this is bringing together partnerships in our province that we haven't seen in the past. It's called Target 100 because the goal is to have 100 people employed within this program. It is a new program and to date - this answers your question - we have approximately three individuals that are in the program, keeping in mind it is a very new program and we're going through the process of matching individuals and their needs and their abilities with the appropriate co-op placement. It's very important in these circumstances to make sure that there is a perfect match or a good match or it's not going to be successful.

Once again, we're not going to rush into that situation so we can boast our numbers right away. This is an announcement that only took place about a month and a half ago and already we have three people who are placed. We know that definitely we're going to meet our (Interruption)

Well with all the issues we have in our province, I do not think the difference between five years and two to three is a big issue because of the fact it is good news. We anticipated that it would be five years, however, since the fact is that we're getting such an interest in the program and that the program is starting off with such a big bang, that we will be able to reach our target in two to three years is good news, not bad news. I think that to focus on the difference of five years in an opening comment to the two and three years is really ludicrous in my mind because it is a program that's working and that we're proud of.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: How much time do I have left?

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Six minutes for today, and we can return tomorrow.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Six minutes. I'm sure all disadvantaged groups in Nova Scotia that are out there - and believe me, all is not right in the world of Community Services in this province despite the wonderful piece of fiction that the minister gave us in her opening remarks here today - I'm sure that all these groups are very satisfied that all is right in the Department of Community Services. All is not right in the Department of Community Services. Those of us who are out in our communities doing work every day on behalf of the people in our constituency, know that all is not right in the Department of Community Services.

The minister may say "wonderful" 10 times in her speech, that everything is wonderful. It's not wonderful, Madam Chairman. It's not wonderful that there is still a problem in Rockcliffe in Sydney with the number of residents that are living in that particular building, that in a couple of months' time may not even know where they're going. It's not right that there are no new housing units being built in my area of Nova Scotia, yet there's a 360-person waiting list, family waiting list, in my area. People are being forced to take sub-standard housing at predator pricing in my area because the department for housing, that she is in control of, is not doing their job and making sure the people have affordable housing.

In her opening remarks, she talked about affordable housing throughout Nova Scotia. Well I can tell you, there are 360 families in my area who can't get affordable housing, yet they're subject to extremely high rents in substandard housing because of the fact that this department is not paying attention to those in my community and other communities that need affordable housing.

I can tell you that I listened to the minister here at length today about all that was wonderful in the Department of Community Services. I said in my opening remarks that I don't know why I could ask her anything because everything in her mind, there's no problems at all in Community Services. I'll go back to an answer that she gave me regarding that foster parent from New Waterford - that's not the story he told me. He told me - and I have no reason to dispute what he said - that the deputy minister, not the minister, the deputy minister called him up to apologize for the minister not getting back to him over many months.

The minister says she reads and responds to every e-mail - that simply is not true. I've had people call me and they've said they cannot get the minister to respond to their problems. She may illustrate the ones she has responded to, but I can assure you there are many groups and individuals out there that are hurting and want some response from the minister. I can tell you in the situation - and I'll wind up by asking you, Madam Minister, in regard to the Rockcliffe situation, they seemed to come away from the meeting saying there is a light at the end of the tunnel with their housing needs.

The simple thing to do there, Madam Minister, in my opinion - because they can't get housing and you know that, you made a statement in the Cape Breton Post that all they had to do if they were leaving there was call the Department of Community Services and we'll look after them. I don't know how you're going to look after them in public housing when there's already 360 families waiting to get in the units, 80 of which are not even functional because they have to be repaired.

You have a housing situation down there that's broken, you have a number of people that are looking to get into those houses and you're telling the ones at Rockcliffe that all they have to do - and you said it publicly, I'm not misquoting or anything like that. You made a statement in the Cape Breton Post to that effect. Madam Minister, I can tell you the people down there don't believe it. They're tired of rent increases of $150 a month, they're going to start in the next couple of months and they're going to have to either pay that rent - in some cases they can't pay it - or they're going to have to be evicted.

I don't know where they're going and you don't know where they're going. You don't have any place for them to go to, except you told them to call Department of Community Services and they would be accommodated. That is simply giving false hope to those people, that you can get them public housing. You can't and you know you can't.

The simple thing to do there at Rockcliffe, if the people who meet the qualifications for subsidized housing - and you're doing that in other areas in Sydney - would be leave them where they're at and pay the subsidized rents to those people who qualify. You're going to pay it somewhere else when they leave. If they qualify under the guidelines of Community Services, the simple thing to do here would be to accommodate them in the homes they're presently living in because they are living there, they need a place to live, and they're not going to get it from Community Services.

Where they might get some satisfaction, Madam Minister, is at Rockcliffe where they're living. I'm sure that if you can sit down with the new owner at Rockcliffe, you can come to an agreement to provide a subsidy for the rents that that landlord needs to upgrade that housing development he has and the people can be subsidized, the ones who need a subsidy because of their low incomes, and there are many of them in Rockcliffe. I'm sure that the NDP member for Cape Breton Nova agrees with me on everything I've just said about Rockcliffe.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Excuse me. At this point I will have to interrupt. The time has elapsed for the Liberal caucus and I will now be turning the floor over to the Progressive Conservative caucus. There are 18 minutes remaining. We will be wrapping up at 6:02 p.m. according to my watch anyway.

The honourable member for Argyle.

HON. CHRISTOPHER D'ENTREMONT: Madam Chairman, I'm just going to be two seconds here, you know, and ultimately there's a good reason why during the last estimates, when I was sitting in that chair, that I did not read the comments because as much as we want to believe all the wonderful things that are happening in the department, and I know there is some great stuff within the department, but there are too many other things that we do need to fix and too many things that need our attention and too many things that need more money.

The display we had here tonight is indicative of that. The member for Cape Breton South knows full well the ins and outs of the department and what's going on and can pick apart any good comment that you have because there are so many things within the Department of Community Services that need attention, that need money, that need new programming, that need the attention of the minister. But I'm not going to go on on that one tonight because I think I would rather share my time with the member for Dartmouth North. So I'm going to let the member for Dartmouth North take the remainder of this time.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Dartmouth North.

MR. TREVOR ZINCK: I would like to thank the member for Argyle for passing this on. Thank you, Madam Minister, welcome, staff - Dave and George, it's nice to see you again. Dave, congratulations on your new position; well deserved. I would like to begin my comments by expressing my thanks to the staff at the Department of Community Services and, in particular, those individuals, caseworkers and supervisors and front line staff who work out of the Portland Street office who work continuously hard, and tirelessly, to assist those in need in the community of Dartmouth North. We rely quite heavily on their efforts and are always supportive and appreciative of whatever they can do to help us help those in need.

Another individual whom I would like to thank personally at this time, who has been wonderful a wonderful asset and ally of mine over the last number of years, is Mr. Dan Troke, the regional director of housing. Dan has always been there, and both Dave and Dan had spearheaded some of the federal stimulus money when I had made inquiries back in June about having some help come into Dartmouth North in and around the Highfield Park Co-op. So I would like to personally thank him as well.

[5:45 p.m.]

In regard to the opening statements made by the minister, you know, I guess we kind of go through this every year. There are good things that are happening, there's no question, but I can honestly tell you - and I have had conversations with the minister - the folks whom I deal with on a regular basis, the amount of cases that come through my doors, it's quite stressing when you have individuals who are existing on $740 to $800 a month and rents are running about $600 for a somewhat decent one-bedroom, in a somewhat safe part of our community, it doesn't leave much money at the end of the day. In regards to the recent budget coming out, the 2 per cent increase is going to definitely hurt those families. I am concerned. There are some questions that I'll ask later about the affordable tax credit.

I know the minister has worked hard; I know her heart is in this. Over the last number of months, she has become very well versed at the knowledge that there has been a lack of funding and a lack of support, a lack of communication with many organizations around the province that have struggled to have their cases heard. We're talking lack of funding for 10 years to 15 years in a lot of cases and I know it's never about waving a magic wand and fixing everything. However, taking the necessary steps is a key part.

Madam Minister, I'm going to go through a series of questions, I'm going to jump around a bit . . .

MADAM CHAIRMAN: You have four minutes.

MR. ZINCK: I have four minutes? I thought I had 18 minutes.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, 14 minutes.

MR. ZINCK: Yes, 14 minutes, okay. Well, I'm going to continue in the coming hours to ask a number of questions but the first question I'll ask you is in reference to the Employment Support and Income Assistance Act and the actual dollar value that we will see. If there is any increase in the personal allowance and shelter allowance this year, what will that be?

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: What we have done is we've taken a different approach than having the piecemeal approach of every year just adding $4 or $6 on a monthly basis for the IA Program. As you're probably aware, there's two components in the IA Program when you're talking about the needs of individuals and families. You do have families that utilize income assistance and they're able to access other programs such as the childcare benefit and the Pharmacare. So that helps to boost their income.

Then we have another component and that part is persons with disabilities. That's the part also that I felt as a new minister was quite shameful, that most people with disabilities live $6,500 under the poverty level in the province. So you can see where the starting point was for us as a new government and myself as a new minister. At the same time, we face the financial crunch that we do in this province. So rather than, and as I mentioned before today, the approach we want to take now is we need to change direction. We need to have Community Services seen as a place of solutions, a place of support to go forward, whether you're an individual with a disability or whether you're a family that requires the support of income assistance.

I often mention this story about the hamster going around the wheel and the hamster is going around and around and is really tired out but doesn't know what else to do because the wheel keeps on spinning. So the little hamster keeps on spinning but at some point the hardest part is stopping that wheel and jumping off and making a difference in the course that you're going to take. That is the point that we are at and what we want to do as a government and that is why rather than looking at just the approach of increasing the IA rates on a monthly basis, we knew that because we had hard choices to make with respect to this budget and increasing the 2 per cent on the HST, we had to make decisions that would support those who were the lower and modest income earners in the province.

That's why we have the two different tax credits that I mentioned in the opening speech, the one of the Affordable Living Tax Credit, and what that Affordable Living Tax Credit does is, for any individuals or families under the $30,000 income range, it offers them enough money back, the credit will allow them to pay out what they would on average, an average family making $30,000, what they would on average spend on that 2 per cent increase, and plus it puts an extra $113 a month in their pocket. So if you do the math, it would increase their amount way more than having that $4 or $6 a month, with individuals on disability, and that's why it's for individuals on disability that most of those, there's about 15,000 in the province who would be eligible for the Poverty Reduction Credit, and what's so important about that is the fact that that is one area that has been neglected for just too many years in this province.

Because of the fact that right now that those who are on disabilities go in within the program of income assistance, there's not a separate program for persons with disabilities in the province and it may be one area that we want to look at and to put much more attention on in the future to have separate programming for persons with disabilities but at this point we don't.

What the Poverty Reduction Credit does, along with the Affordable Living Tax Credit, those who are eligible for the Poverty Reduction Credit would also be eligible for the Affordable Living Tax Credit. Together combined, what that would equate to is actually a $26 per month increase for those individuals, which far outweighs $4 or $6 per month that has been given in the past.

That's why I'm so pleased with that and I'm so pleased that the government recognized that there would be particular constraints on those individuals who are in that category in our province so that would affect about 15,000 people. I think that that's a great move and it's a better move than actually doing $4 per month one year and maybe $6 the next. That's really that piecemeal approach, a bandage approach of just trying to patch up and sort of trying to be everything to everybody rather than taking a strategic approach of changing the course of DCS that we know that what we have to do is increase the income level for individuals and especially persons with disabilities. (Interruption)

There is a high percentage of those individuals that we do know cannot enter the workforce because of their disability. Those are the complex cases that we will have from this day forward. Those numbers are actually increasing in the province too because of our population becoming more senior. It's two-fold because of the aging population and also because of the fact that we have a lot of aging parents that have an adult child who has a disability and upon their death suddenly there is no support there so it is our responsibility, of course, to support that individual. There needs to be a lot of planning around the fact of the income levels and how we can increase them. I think that it is quite a step in year one of a government to go from what's typically $4 per month or $6 per month to actually $26 per month.

The other thing that I am pleased with, with the Affordable Living Tax Credit, is the fact that it has broadened our spectrum to help individuals or families. It is not just individuals who are on income assistance. If you analyze that, it's the first time that this has ever happened in the province that there has been some type of support for people that we often call "the working poor". That is one issue or one area that has been a concern of mine because of the issue that as we go forward, are we going to find more individuals that are dropping off from being the working poor to actually needing income assistance and that's what we don't want so we do need to be able to support those individuals through difficult times. I have some other areas that I would like to develop with respect to the working poor but one big step in that within the first year of government is to allow them to be eligible for the Affordable Living Tax Credit. I think that's a very positive move.

Then we have our third category of individuals who are usually on the low income spectrum and that is the seniors. To be able to now provide seniors that are on the GIS, approximately 18,000 seniors will be eligible for this and that's the fact of being able to not have to pay income tax. So there are three target areas of individuals and families and people in the province within this first budget that we have considered and realized and have offered three different programs that are accessible.

The other very positive about that is the fact that we're not what typically is said as being a claw-back that those programs, the Affordable Living Tax Credit and the Poverty Reduction Credit, are actually not being recognized as income and how often have we heard that when there's a program within Community Services that you give on one hand, but you're taking on the other. I think that's another area that is a very big step is the fact that we are saying, we're not recognizing that as income.

That's why in my opening speech I talked about the wonderful things. I do realize, I know, there are many issues. Within nine months, I'm just very proud of what we've been able to do and I think we've moved forward more than any government in the history of this province. We're taking of 250 years of two different types of governing between two different Parties, we haven't moved very far. I'm telling you, within nine months to be able to sit here and talk about those new programs -I have every right to use the word 'wonderful' not 10 times, but 100 times.

MR. ZINCK: I wasn't arguing that, Minister.

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: Oh I know that, but I'm making that comment, that's why being able to use that word, I think I have the right to use it and our government has the right to use it.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Dartmouth North. You have two minutes (Interruption) Three, sorry.

MR. ZINCK: I'll ask a very simple question around the tax credits. A 45 year old male, a recovering addict, $535 currently for shelter, $214 for personal allowance. How much money will they have increased in their income based on what you've stated in the tax credits? How much will their monthly income go up? A single, 45 year old male, recovering addict, $535 currently for shelter, $214 for personal. How much income will he see in addition with regard to the tax credits?

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: What we need to do is add the figures. If it's a figure of under $12,000, then that individual would be eligible for those two programs which means an additional $26 a month, under the $12,000. If they're under the $12,000 as an annual income, we equate it usually with individuals with disabilities - not always individuals with disabilities - but most fit into that particular category.

If that's less than $12,000, so here's what we're looking at - total tax credit, if you have a single individual under $12,000 a year, their total tax credit will be $440 a year, is what they'll get additionally. You can do the math on a monthly basis. If they have one child, we're still reflecting under that $12,000 a year, you're looking at $297 extra a year. If it's two children, it's $354 extra a year. If we're talking about your particular case that you've requested here, you would be looking at under $12,000, it would be $440.

MR. ZINCK: So you're talking upwards of $35 a month more in their pocket.

MS. PETERSON-RAFUSE: It works out, the calculations that I've done before, it works out to actually $26. If they can access both of those programs, the Poverty Reduction Credit and the Affordable Living Credit, it should work out to about $26 a month. If they were just going to get the one credit, it would be $17. If you're under that $12,000, you'd be eligible for both and that's what's nice. It's not a program that because you get from one, you're not eligible to claim from the other. You can actually claim from both. My figures, on average, around $26 extra a month.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: At this point I have to interrupt. The time has elapsed for today's subcommittee on supply. We will revert back to committee in the morning. We stand adjourned until tomorrow.

[The subcommittee adjourned at 6:01 p.m.]