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MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I'd like to call Resolution E1.
Resolution E1 - Resolved that a sum not exceeding $61,686,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Agriculture, pursuant to the Estimate, and the business plans of the Nova Scotia Crop and Livestock Insurance Commission and the Nova Scotia Farm Loan Board be approved.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Agriculture to introduce his staff and to make some opening comments.
HON. JOHN MACDONELL: Mr. Chairman, I'd be pleased to introduce my staff. To my right is the Deputy for the Department of Agriculture, Paul LaFleche. I think members would recognize Paul. Also with me today are Diane Kenny, Executive Director for Policy and Planning; Weldon Myers, Director of Finance, is on my left; Celeste Sulliman, Director of Communications; and Bob Mosher, the Manager of Financial Services. I think, I'm not sure, I think that's probably enough people to keep me on the straight and narrow. I'm very pleased to have my staff here with me to help answer questions that any members of the Opposition have.
I want to say that I've made some effort to try to keep the speech within two hours. I want to let members know how pleased I am to sit here before you today and to talk about the Department of Agriculture. I'm very pleased to be able to be the Minister of Agriculture and the first Minister of Agriculture in the history of Nova Scotia with an NDP Government.
I guess that many of you would be aware I had been the critic for 11 years and so with all of that, I'm very pleased to be before you today.
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Premier Dexter has provided clear leadership that our government will live within its means, balancing the budget remains the guiding principle of our government. As we move forward, it's clear we have many challenges and we will ensure Nova Scotians are part of the process to address them. While spending on programs and services is largely unchanged from May 4th, the budget has been updated to reflect changes in revenue and expenses.
With departments halfway into the fiscal year, it's too late to make significant changes. We are continuing to follow through on our commitments to Nova Scotians. We recognize that agriculture is an important contributor to the economic and social fabric of Nova Scotia. Developing competitive agriculture and food industries are a priority of my department.
Let me give you a current snapshot of agriculture in our province. The agriculture and agri-food industry is worth close to $1 billion to the Province of Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia's supply-managed sectors - dairy, poultry and eggs - accounted for close to one-half of all production in the province. Dairy is the single biggest sector and roughly a quarter of the overall industry. Horticulture covering a wide range of products including apples, wild and high-bush blueberries, cranberries, greenhouse and nursery products, potatoes, vegetables and honey combine to make up a significant part of the industry as well.
Fur, mainly from mink farming, is one of the fastest growing agriculture sectors in Nova Scotia and currently represents approximately $64 million in farm-cash receipts. Agriculture is ideally positioned to make major contributions to the people of Nova Scotia.
It is worth noting that the Nova Scotia agriculture industry stretches well beyond our provincial boundaries with goods exported around the world. The department continues to work with federal and provincial government partners to maximize access to trade markets without disrupting Nova Scotia's supply-managed systems.
This year the department will implement year two of a three-year trade plan focusing on market development and diversification, product branding, strategic alliances, core markets and targeted market research and information. We will continue to encourage and recruit new entrants to the industry through outreach and education, business development supports and financial assistance. We will develop a committee this year to improve the delivery of programs and services to new entrants.
Agriculture has the potential to provide the economic basis for a bio-economy that can help reinvigorate rural communities and help reverse trends in rural population decline and create sustainable rural communities. To do this, the industry needs to attract qualified people from around the world to ensure the diversity of training, perspective, intellectual capacity and entrepreneurial confidence needed for vigorous economic growth.
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The Atlantic BioVenture Centre at the Nova Scotia Agricultural College has been highly successful in attracting research funding, securing nearly $9.5 million in industry-led initiatives since its inception in 2005.
The department will also continue to provide support and services to encourage an increase in the production of new, value-added and higher quality products. We will continue to work with industry and government partners to help Nova Scotia's farm communities to seize on new opportunities and move forward.
Work is underway on a 10-year strategy for long-term growth in the agriculture and agri-business sectors. The strategic framework will complement department efforts to help the agriculture industry transition so it can compete effectively in a consumer driven global marketplace.
The department recognizes the need for greater strategic partnerships and innovative thinking to deal with the increasingly complex challenges in the global economy. Recognizing the hard times currently impacting the beef sector, the government has agreed to set aside $2 million over the next two years to support the needs of the sector.
As well, improved business risk management options as a part of the new federal, provincial and territorial Growing Forward agreement will help farmers when market, trade and economic forces impact margins. The new federal, provincial and territorial Growing Forward agreement commits $14.74 million in federal funding and $9.83 million in provincial funding to Nova Scotia's agricultural industry over the next five years.
Improved industry competitiveness will stem from developing strategies and implementing plans that identify and address consumer needs and wants and attract and develop highly skilled people, better information, more efficient government processes, improved infrastructure and production methods, better suppliers, more advanced research institutions and more intensive competitive pressure.
We are committed to working with the Nova Scotia Federation of Agriculture to implement a competitive transition framework to transition the agriculture industry towards self-sufficiency, independence and sustainability. Competitive transition is addressing how the industry can move together to greater market competitiveness.
Select Nova Scotia and other buy local campaigns have helped expand markets and create new value chains for local food production. On September 4th more than 2,000 Nova Scotians joined me in taking the Co-op Atlantic Eat Atlantic Challenge pledge to eat only local foods for that day. That day was a huge success, but we will not stop there. We will continue to support local food producers throughout our province.
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To this end, we have earmarked additional funding in the amount of $985,000 under the Community Development Trust. That will be used for direct marketing initiatives and projects involving farms and farmers' markets. While it is important for Nova Scotians to have access to fresh local food, it is equally as important that the food we eat is safe. Food safety issues have received considerable attention in recent years, particularly with several reported cases of foodborne illness in the United States and the Listeria outbreak in Ontario during the summer of 2008.
A single foodborne illness can have serious impacts on producers whose products are recalled, causing disruptions and problems throughout the value chain. The department continues to expand food safety programming by working with federal, provincial, and municipal government partners. This includes working with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency to implement national programs that will provide traceability for farm products and expanded animal health surveillance services.
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The department will also work with the Departments of Health Promotion and Protection and Environment around education, recruitment, and regulatory reform to improve overall environmental public health in Nova Scotia.
The department will begin proclaiming portions of the new Animal Protection Act in 2009, giving government a greater role in responding to the allegations of mistreatment or abuse of farm animals and enhancing the ability of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals to respond to cruelty complaints related to companion animals.
The environment, energy, and resources we use and how we use them are significant priorities of this government. We will continue to work with industry and government partners to improve access to high-quality water resources.
The department will work with government partners to examine opportunities for Maritime-wide co-operation on a long-term dike and coastal flooding strategy. As minister, I tabled changes to the Agricultural Marshland Conservation Act last week. These changes will improve the management and maintenance of these important agricultural lands and barriers to coastal erosion.
The department continues to work with industry and government partners to encourage farmers to reduce greenhouse gases through on-farm energy conservation. We will continue to support the development of alternate and renewable energy technologies.
My department will continue to lead a review of land use planning and development initiatives, develop a tool to help planners evaluate the importance of agricultural land, and support the work of the Agricultural Land Review Committee.
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An Agricultural Land Review Committee will be established in the coming weeks to advise me and my colleague, the Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, on issues surrounding the use of prime agricultural land.
In closing, the Nova Scotia Department of Agriculture believes the future of agriculture in Nova Scotia is bright. Our goal is a future where our farming communities are thriving and producing food for consumers in Nova Scotia and elsewhere; a future where farm businesses are profitable and sustainable; a future where agriculture is the backbone of our rural communities, where Nova Scotians choose to live and raise their families. We will work hard for the people of Nova Scotia to make this future come to fruition. Thank you for the opportunity to address you and for your time.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Kings West.
MR. LEO GLAVINE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you minister for your introduction and overview comments. I must say I am disappointed with your introductions, that you forgot your able assistant, Laurence Nason. He has slogged his way through a few barns so he should have been mentioned.
Anyway, one of the things I need to say right off is that even though, in every census since the post-world war period, the number of registered farms have gone down in Nova Scotia, farming is still the cornerstone of a number of our rural communities and Nova Scotia has the highest sales of primary agriculture commodities in the four Atlantic Provinces. As you have outlined, industries such as dairy, horticulture, eggs, poultry and a very fast-growing mink industry are contributing to our work force and drive a number of our rural economies.
The status of industries, however, like the hog industry and cattle, cannot be ignored any more. The NDP Government must take action on these matters. I was pleased to hear that you are going to find a mechanism to deal with cattle producers. I think that's going to be absolutely essential in the coming months. I think we're seeing the sell-off of a few herds this Fall, which could potentially become significant over the next number of months if some kind of relief - prices rise or we're able to come up with a strategy that will support a significant number of the producers remaining.
The hog industry is another story. This time next year we'll be talking about two or three hog producers if the isowean farmers don't survive and that will be a decision that your government will have to make in the coming weeks and months as to whether or not the sow stock and keeping six or seven isowean producers going, because, as we know, the top price this summer was only around $1.15, $1.16 a kilogram and we know that even the isowean who sell the piglet after 21 days, it will be difficult to make it in that climate. So it will be a decision in the coming months for sure.
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We have excellent farming capabilities in Nova Scotia and some of the best products this country has to offer and to neglect these businesses and the people who rely on them will not be acceptable in the climate that's emerging, especially around the buy local movement. On numerous occasions my colleagues and I have pleaded with the government to listen to farmers, we must adhere to those if we are ever to succeed, they know their industry best. You did mention, and I do applaud, the development of a 10-year strategy. It was in the works with the previous government. I'm just wondering here at some stage if the minister could outline where that strategy is and to the degree that farmers were consulted.
I know that in my five years as Agriculture Critic, I have not been let down when I have consulted with farmers. I get the best information, I get the most direct information and that process needs to make sure that farmers, from all of our sectors, have been listened to along the way.
By investing in our agriculture industries we can ensure more jobs, better living and quality food for all of us. As I mentioned at the beginning, with the number of census farms that have gone down dramatically, especially over the last two decades, still, in Kings County, which is one of the leading counties for agriculture in the province, one in five jobs - about 20 per cent of our economy in Kings County - is either directly or indirectly the beneficiary of the agriculture industry.
Without question none of this would be possible if not for the hard work and dedication put in daily by farmers and their employees. I have farmer neighbours on either side of me so I can attest to that from what I see day to day. Their commitment to their work not only feeds Nova Scotia but in fact we send products around the world. It's a job that requires you to show up, in many of the sectors, 365 days a year.
Agriculture and its subsequent fields are integral to rural economies of Nova Scotia. Agriculture also affects our urban populations when meat and produce prices start to skyrocket because we have to import commodities, people will begin to realize just how vital farmers and their businesses are to Nova Scotia. We must invest in the industries that help to feed us daily and produce employment for thousands of Nova Scotians. Products grown in Nova Scotia should be manufactured for Nova Scotians, not just for export. It's important that we buy from our farmers to ensure the stability of this industry.
The agriculture industry desperately needs better marketing. It's one of the things that I do hear from farmers on a pretty regular basis that what has probably hurt some of our primary industries and agriculture and tourism, in particular, have in fact not always had the very best of marketing. We're on the cusp of really moving the Buy Local movement forward. When I have the occasion, I talk to more and more young couples about, are you going to the farm markets? Are you buying local? Are you asking the produce manager in Sobeys or Superstore if they don't have something? I think the potential of even having a local food economy is very, very realistic.
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That takes me to the Speech from the Throne, which obviously was disappointing to even some of the NDP members I've talked to in the last few days, in that there were only two sentences with regard to agriculture. Two sentences doesn't bring a lot of comfort that this primary sector is going to get the needed attention from this government. Every week I see news reports and hear from local producers that there simply isn't enough being done for rural communities and agriculture in particular. I've had many calls and e-mails to my office about the lack of marketing around the Select Nova Scotia program. People cannot find local products when they go to the grocery store.
Just on that line, we've made it a point to dovetail with the Kings County Council. On my MLA Web site, we keep trying to add to what is available in Kings County, not just in the Kings West riding, but what's available in Kings County. I still think the Select Nova Scotia is in its infancy, it has tremendous potential.
I'm going to start off with an area I brought up in the House, but I absolutely believe that if we put the kind of energy only from the department - I know the lady, Jennifer, is very, very capable but if we're going to make the Incredible Picnic a centrepiece of energies to promote Buy Local, I really feel we're going to come up short. I consider it a valuable event, not only on showcasing local produce, but it also brings our communities together. It could almost develop into a mini cultural, food and celebration on an annual basis and I think it could be turned over to communities and individuals who believe in this very, very strongly and I think it should grow.
I will start there and just ask a couple of other questions about the Incredible Picnic. I know, I heard directly from the producers who were disappointed, farmers had to try and unload a considerable quantity of product in a limited amount of time. Therefore, it was a little bit of a down experience for them this year. I'm just wondering what you will do to keep the farmers that have been involved and attract new farmers to this event?
MR. MACDONELL: I want to say thank you to the member for Kings West. I guess the first thing I should do is introduce my executive assistant, Laurence Nason, a man who I would say needs no introduction.
You've touched on a number of things but your specific question was around the Incredible Picnic. It certainly would be our intention to make an attempt at the Incredible Picnic again next year. Our role for our department really is around the promotion of the picnic. We don't like to go and twist people's arms to be involved. If any particular producer feels that this is something that fits well with what they want to do, gives them an opportunity to advertise their wares and their product and their produce, we certainly want them on board.
I have to say that we have not received a complaint to the Department of Agriculture or one call to me, personally, around anybody who was put out by the fact that we had to, eventually, cancel. That decision did not happen lightly, you can well imagine, to have the
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picnic booked for one Sunday and postpone it because of weather, in the hopes that you would do it again. I went to Windsor when Hurricane Bill was happening because Windsor was an inside venue. Actually, the member for Hants West was well on his way there, he had the apron on, he was cooking corn and serving the public who came in there and so we were glad that - I think, there and Antigonish were the only two that were actually open that day.
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So, we definitely were disappointed with facing the reality of Tropical Storm Danny, which actually turned out to be a worse event, really, than Bill. But, it's Nova Scotia, I think we would hope that whoever is planning to participate really only has that part of a day's worth of product there that they might have to think of how to remarket that if it turns out that this doesn't come together. But we can only do what we can. We're not backing away from the Incredible Picnic but I don't think we're going to buy all the produce. People have to recognize that there may be some risk if they want to get involved and try to measure how much they think can move on any particular day and perhaps keep it to a minimum. But we're looking for something that showcases what they have so that they can put their best foot forward. We're trying to be really helpful in that.
MR. GLAVINE: I'm just wondering, as a follow-up, and I did reference this in the House, and that is that at least in some communities there is a real possibility that an alternate venue could be made available. I'm not saying that it needed to be set down as something firm as criteria for a community that's going to put forth the organization for a picnic, but I'm wondering if your department is actually going to promote that another time?
Also, in reference to not hearing from anybody, I know, after I put out a press release, it was interesting that three or four department people showed up at one of the main producers for the Incredible Picnic, it could have been just accidental, but I know his name was mentioned in the press release and, as I say, at the time, he had to rely upon the local community to buy a considerable amount of product.
MR. MACDONELL: My thought is that to look at other venues is something that we could look at. The question then, I think, becomes whether they will all be inside or all be outside, a kind of mishmash of picnics in different areas and then the question arises, if there isn't one in a particular area where you might have had the picnic and there is no indoor facility, then are we going to rent those? Who's going to pay for that?
We can look at it, and then if it's inside, you assume you wouldn't be cancelling, but if you did have to, then I see other layers of complications. It's not out of the realm of possibilities, I'm just not sure about the workability of it, but we can see where it goes.
MR. GLAVINE: I'll stay with this theme for a little bit because I highly regard the possibilities that the development of a local food economy can have and I think the
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importance in the coming decades that it's actually going to play out. In fact, reverting back to a time when we produced a very significant percentage of our food, even though it was during a time of a very high degree of ruralization and people had their small acreages and did produce a considerable amount of their own food.
At this stage, is it too early to talk about how it may fit into a strategic plan and what is in place? Unless we establish some kind of a target that by 2020, 2025, we could be producing 20 per cent of our food. If it's never there, we'll never even move to reach that. Is there going to be a broad, bold target we can actually aim for, shoot for, inside of the strategy around local food production and consumption?
MR. MACDONELL: I'd like to set targets actually. I don't think my preference would be to say 20 per cent or 30 per cent overall consumption of local food. What I would like to do is set targets around commodities - I want 25,000 head of finished beef in Nova Scotia by a certain date. To know that whatever commodities we feel aren't getting enough attention, that we set targets for those to be in the marketplace, more of them, by volume or whatever. There would have to be a discussion, I think, in particular with the community, with those particular stakeholders, to find out what they would deem to be lacking.
We're bringing in the equivalent of 9,000 head of cattle a month to feed Nova Scotians and we have a fairly steady market for beef and we finish about 8,000 head a year. I think we should set some targets. The issue for any of these commodities - Nova Scotians aren't going to eat all the blueberries that are produced in Nova Scotia, that's not going to happen. There's just too great a volume. The issue around profitability has to be addressed across the industry. We probably can set targets for producing a lot of local food and if farmers are going to be in poverty doing it, I don't think it's very sustainable. You can't separate the two.
MR. GLAVINE: Related to that, I know it's something that, at least for the hog sector, you seemed - at least in Opposition - very akin to some of the direction that Kelco Consulting Ltd. was saying, more dollars could get into the pockets of farmers. Once again, this could move in a parallel way with the development of a local food economy. Are you prepared to at least put on trial one sector to see its adaptability in Nova Scotia and can it have real results with a trial period? That has proven very valuable, relatively seamless in terms of the big producers. We know that, as you outlined, beef is one of those areas where, if a whole lot of right decisions are made - it can't be a haphazard approach, that's why I believe in a strategy whereby the best selection of the beef that we can grow in Nova Scotia and whether we move very close to an organic product, whatever it may be - that there could be some premium available and more dollars can go back.
This is what's causing the beef farmer to go out of business. We happen to have an accumulative run of very significantly negative events starting with BSC. In the concept of Kelco, which happens with apples in New Brunswick, it's not about local beef, it's every kilogram of beef that is sold in the province gets the two cents, or whatever it may be.
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If we were to do that, I don't think it's just looking at it in a simple fashion, I think that other 80 per cent, whether it's Western beef or boxed beef from New Zealand, and God forbid some of the stuff we bring in from some of the Central American countries that we consume, we really should be looking at how that other 80 per cent, with a very small additional two cents a kilogram or whatever, can go back into redevelopment of the industry. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are Mr. Minister?
MR. MACDONELL: I didn't catch your last statement.
MR. GLAVINE: I'm just wondering, in terms of at least a kind of a general direction that you may be investigating or you've asked your department to take a second look at, because the record shows a certain affinity for this and the possibilities at least to investigate it.
MR. MACDONELL: Thank you. I have to tell you that I have asked my department to take a look at Kelco. I was aware there had been a committee, from a previous government, that with some department staff and federation staff had looked at the Kelco report. The thrust of the report was on transition. I remember three points - transition, ecological goods and services and strengthening the value chain. There was a fourth one around the apples in New Brunswick.
So I've asked to look at all those components and I think the thrust of the Kelco report, as it has been colloquially named, is that farmers pay for a lot of services, food safety, environmental considerations and so on that they can't get out of the value chain. I have definitely asked my department to look at that.
I like the beef strategy. I think going to a grass finished beef, kind of a standardized product, is the way we should be going. We have a grass advantage in Nova Scotia. The Shubenacadie, Stewiacke and Musquodoboit River valleys will grow more forage in a year than lots of places in the world will. This is for ruminants, we should be thinking about our ability to grow beef and lamb relatively easily compared to using Western grain to finish them.
I have asked my department to look at that as, not only part of a kind of support for a beef strategy, but also as part of our 10-year strategy to kick that off in place. If there's no way to derive what farmers need out of the value chain. You can't write a strategy for any of them and, as a matter of fact, there's not going to be enough dollars in the public purse to carry the agricultural industry in any province. We're still not there as to what the final analysis will bring but I'm hoping soon, before Christmas, we will be.
MR. GLAVINE: Before I leave this issue, I was wondering if over the past four or five years, since there has been a growing interest and development of local food, is there any discernible increased improvement over that period of time, so in the last number of years?
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I know Select Nova Scotia has only been around for a few years, but prior to that there were developments around some growth of farm markets and the ask at the larger grocery stores. Is there any significant notice at this stage in the growth of local food production or in consumption?
MR. MACDONELL: I don't have a definitive number that I could say, from 1996 it was this and in 2006 it was that, which would show a volume of X tons or dollars that would indicate such an increase.
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Even in my village of Enfield, we have a farmers' market. We've had one now for about three or four years. It didn't exist before that. I know there are a number of farmers' markets around the province. We have Withrow's in Belnan; Jim Lorraine, Jim Lamb - these are all entrepreneurs, farmers, who have kind of gone to the retail side as well to try to get more dollars out of the value chain; people buying very local beef, in particular, and I think pork in the case of Jim Lamb.
We know that there is more awareness through Select Nova Scotia and that's a voluntary program. I think the numbers are in, and I can't say I have them in front of me, but as far as institutionally in the province, them procuring local product, I do believe those numbers are up. I would say generally, yes, people are much more aware. I have to say, when I'm out and about, and people recognize me now as the minister, they do make a point of approaching me and discussing buying local and the fact that they're looking for it.
There's certainly a much greater awareness and if they're all approaching their local retailers and/or restaurants, I think there's a much greater awareness on the part of people.
MR. GLAVINE: Moving to a different topic, it perhaps embraces the local picture because there seems to be a greater need but yet enormous challenges even within the Atlantic Region to have a co-operation, to have some firm agreements. We all know that with beef and trying to save the beef plant on Prince Edward Island is becoming an enormous challenge. What are your thoughts as you start out as a new government around Atlantic co-operation and where that can be a positive in developing a stronger food economy?
MR. MACDONELL: I've had some discussions with the minister in P.E.I., Minister Webster, I believe, if I have the name right. He's very concerned about the hog industry there and the fact that for the most part the hogs produced there are coming either to Tony's Meats in Antigonish or Larsen's. I think, and rightly so, those two processing plants are concerned about the number of hogs they're getting because the number of hogs in Nova Scotia are down.
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There are those concerns around the ability of producers in one province to access processing or a market in another, which I would deem to be an important factor. There's a whole issue around whether we should be labelling and selling our products as an Atlantic product rather than a local product. I'm not so keen on that, I'm very keen on whatever works.
My biggest concern is around Nova Scotia producers and local Nova Scotia product. I think that's priority one, but whatever possibilities there are to work with the other provinces, to enhance the possibilities for Nova Scotia farmers, I'm very keen to be there. I'll see if I have additional information for you.
MR. GLAVINE: While you're taking a look, I was wondering if you have had any formal meetings or is there an opportunity for all four ministers, or at least the three from the Maritime Provinces, which are more significant with agriculture than Newfoundland. Have you had anything, or is there anything on the horizon, which would bring this whole issue of co-operation and some joint planning for agriculture coming up?
MR. MACDONELL: I have to say, even when you mention Newfoundland, I spent a little time in discussions with the minister in Newfoundland and Labrador who carries a fair load of portfolios. I was there for a mining conference and the Minister of Natural Resources is Agriculture Minister as well. I was surprised to find that, according to the minister, agriculture in Newfoundland is $500 million, which is the farm gate receipts basically in Nova Scotia.
We just recently signed an MOU for co-operation among the Atlantic Provinces. I think it shows some commitment to co-operation.
MR. GLAVINE: I'm going to move on to mink farms. I noted in my opening, as well as the minister, that this is an area that is seeing considerable growth in western Nova Scotia and as far as Kings County. In fact, a few of the hog farms have transitioned over to some mink production.
However, as the industry grows, the minister is becoming all too familiar with one of the challenges and I'm wondering at this stage, are you going to be working with the Department of Environment to make sure that this sector of agriculture is able to thrive, to continue to do well, while dealing with some of the environmental challenges?
MR. MACDONELL: Yes, certainly, we want agriculture to do well. You're quite often dealing with sectors that require livestock. Those animals quite often produce a product that you have to have some type of guideline around the management of it. We encourage environmental farm plans, a number of mink farmers have them. We are definitely interested in stopping any problems, environmentally, that occur, so more than happy to work with the Minister of Environment.
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As a matter of fact, I think realistically all members of the House would agree that along with the Department of Finance telling you what you can and cannot do budget-wise, the Department of Environment has oversight over all departments around what it is that anybody, government-wise or in the private sector, wherever - there are things you cannot do and polluting, certainly polluting a waterway, is one that you can't.
We have no problem in working with the Department of Environment to ensure that any farms are seen to be environmentally sound and well received in their communities because of it.
MR. GLAVINE: While mink farms are receiving the current hot-button attention here, do you have any idea what percentage of our registered farms have environmental plans at this stage? I know it's an ongoing effort and it does take some time for all of our farms to be able to have an entire plan for their operations, but we all know it's very significant. I know that through the Annapolis and Kings areas, the Cornwallis and Annapolis Rivers, they've been trying to make significant improvements, yet some farms remain without environmental plans that contribute each year to the rivers getting the annual notification, not to go in the waters and so forth.
MR. MACDONELL: I'm thinking we do have that number. Can I get back to you on that?
MR. GLAVINE: So, at this stage you wouldn't see a need for a moratorium on new mink farms until some of the environmental issues are dealt with? I don't mean just the one or two that have been in the news, but in a general fashion.
MR. MACDONELL: That's part of the issue, I guess. The new mink farms aren't the problem, they're not up and running, so therefore they're not the polluters. Since, to my knowledge, they haven't actually identified - I think you're talking about the algae in one of the rivers in the southern part of the province. We haven't identified whether it's a mink farm or if it's septic systems or if it's another type of farm. I think that if you wanted a permit to build a house but the municipality was saying that the Department of Environment has discovered some other home that had a faulty septic system that was polluting a stream, would they put a moratorium on building any new homes? I would think they probably wouldn't, they'd probably clean up the one that's the problem.
There's another issue that I've been advised about; in our present application process, if somebody meets the conditions of our application, there may be a legal question about whether I could actually say no to them. So, with the base of those two reasons, I think the legal one would be the one that trumps the first one, is kind of an issue that we're dealing with.
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Presently, I'm not pushing for a moratorium. I would like to push for changes to the application process that might give more discretion to the minister that is not presently there. The issues and the application are basically around animal health issues.
MR. GLAVINE: I was wanting to move on to an area that particularly has application to my riding, Kings County generally, Hants County to some degree and possibly we'll see more areas of the province that will be reviewing protection of farm land in the coming years. It is a very contentious issue. I see some days where Kings County would like to pass it back to the province. We've had some very controversial decisions that have been made and Kings County councillors feel that they are constantly under pressure on this issue to try to make best decisions, to remain consistent is sometimes very difficult.
I know the previous government had been doing some work in this area and I know your EA, I believe, was chairman of that committee. I thought I'd start by asking you if you were still the chairman of that committee.
MR. MACDONELL: Actually, I don't think the committee got constituted. He left the chair seat to sit at my right hand. But, with that said, we are planning to make an announcement soon regarding that committee, select another chairman. We're very keen to see that process get going. I'm expecting it will provide some really valuable information for the department, and for the government, but for the people of Nova Scotia for whom this is a really contentious issue.
[6:00 p.m.]
It does require some planning, some clarity and something that will minimize conflict and try for everybody to maximize the benefits they see in preserving and keeping farm land in production. For me, item No. 1 is, if farmers were making money, they'd probably want to farm their land, but we're definitely going forward with that committee.
MR. GLAVINE: I'm pleased to hear that it's an issue you're not going to duck, that you're going to set a process in place with a new chairman. In seeing the Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations opposite me, I'm sure she's about to have a few fun meetings when she gets invited to a few of the meetings that are likely to take place, especially when it's farmers who are promoting the possibility of being able to develop some of their land. We're seeing that emerging and an organized group of farmers now in Greenwich-Port Williams areas.
It's an issue that when a decision has been made in the past, it has been passed on to the provincial government to either deny or affirm. I'm pleased to see we now have the possibility of providing provincial guidance on this particular area or even moving towards legislation that will indeed provide protection, even if it were our class 2 soils, for example. I'm pleased with that.
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There's no time frame or anything at this stage is there, about making a first draft report and what kind of engagement citizens will have in that?
MR. MACDONELL: I think the intent is to have that committee up and running early in the new year. Probably by the end of March, they would have done their consultation and have something we could look at. I'm not sure whether it'll be legislation we'll do for sure, but I can't see it being available by the Spring sitting of the House, if the committee can have its work done by March. I guess depending on what their findings are, that will tell the tale about whether we need legislation or not.
MR. GLAVINE: Just a few areas mentioned in your opening address, I think I have about 15 minutes left, so I just wanted to touch upon a few of those in the first round.
There are probably many like yourself who have been involved with farming and been around a number of farm communities of Nova Scotia. We know the average age is probably about 55 if not a bit older. I was pleased to hear you talk about new entrants and there being some kind of program around education and, hopefully, some way of attracting young farmers to the business. At this stage, do you have anything along the lines of a program that helps them develop a five-year plan with some financial help to get started?
This is one of the real inhibitors to young farmers - the cost of equipment. If you can't inherit a farm these days the likelihood of entering is indeed very challenging. I'm wondering how you're moving toward some assistance for new entrants in the field.
MR. MACDONELL: I'll give you what I have here. It has been an annual budget of about $600,000 with grants being paid out over a two-year period. I would say that they probably need a more substantive program than that. We need some program of active recruitment to the industry and that, I think, will not - I'm not sure that I'm so interested in pursuing that without nailing down the profitability side.
There are things going on in some sectors that will attract young people. I talk to them because in my constituency we produce 30 per cent of the milk in the province so we have a fairly large dairy sector. There actually are young people going into the dairy industry, but that's the supply managed side. I've met with chicken producers and the thing that strikes you immediately in the room is the lack of grey hair there.
For those sectors that are profitable, you have the fact that they have potential to make money doing something that they really like to do and a lifestyle they like, those are the types of things that attract people. When you sit with beef producers, you see quite a different array of older farmers. So I would say that all of this has to be a single package which addresses a number of issues. For agriculture in this province, if we're going to attract new entrants to those areas that are non-supply managed that have been having problems over the past few
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years, we have to do something around farm gate receipts and the ability for them to make a profit.
If we can do that, that will be the number one new entrant program. Number two would be, at what level of increased funding we should do on interest forgiveness and so on, but a little more than what has been available through the department.
MR. GLAVINE: One of the other areas you'll sometimes hear from the view of young farmers, at least in my area who are in the business, is the whole area of technical support and people to come to the farm for on-site visit if you do need help. It brings me to the question of where we are, or how your government envisions the whole area of field workers and the traditional worker that we had assigned to the research station that would go out to farms to monitor what was going on, and in many ways were the canary in the mine. They were the people that, in fact, picked up many of the problems that farmers were facing. I know it has been talked about, you and I have talked about it and I'm just wondering where that program is and how you see it going forward.
MR. MACDONELL: I think you probably remember, as I do, I think two elections ago, I think it was 2003, where the government had made a commitment to hire 10 new extension people in the department. Actually, we just put out an ad for the last three of them, but I do have to say, it is an issue that my deputy and I have had discussions about. All the points I raised around innovation within the industry, and the need for that, we do require some people on the ground to work with farmers. I'm hoping that in the next budget we can look at the deficiencies that we see on the staffing of people on the ground and see to what level we can bring more people into the department to do that kind of work. I'm very keen to see that we have more people that can actually go out to farms and talk to farmers about programs and what's available to them - that they're quite often so busy they don't or they have a smaller operation and they don't have a full-time somebody who can do that, so I see that as vital.
MR. GLAVINE: That of course relates to the earlier question I had asked about new entrants, that if there is support through those challenging early years, I think success in the business becomes a little bit more viable. That's great to see that program is going to get the needed attention.
Do you envision it or as it is now developing, that it will be done, that it will be available on a regional basis or working out of Truro and Kentville? How in terms of logistics do you see it rolling out?
MR. MACDONELL: We do still have offices throughout the province that have a place for Agriculture reps to be. I think we will have to map out where deficiencies are, number one, and see that we have those people in place and what the location might be to get the best bang for the buck that they can get to as many people. Actually, that might mean that,
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I would think in Kings County in particular, that's not going to hang on one person. We'll just have to do an inventory of the need and then see where it's appropriate to have those people to get the most - not get the most work out of them, but to certainly see that those sectors of the industry that seem to be indicating to us about a lack, that we can fulfill that need as soon as possible.
MR. GLAVINE: Do you see that as dove-tailing and working with the existing private sector extension work that's done or do you see, perhaps, that there may not be a place for the private sector?
MR. MACDONELL: I'm always a bit impressed with the people in the private sector who go that way to create a business and offer service so we expect that they'll stick around. It would depend on, I think, the availability of the price, whatever the price is for the service they deliver and the ability of farmers to access that. I don't think we really want to see ourselves necessarily in conflict with the private sector but I don't think it's big enough to carry the agricultural sector. I think government does have a responsibility to ensure that those services are there and it was the elimination of those provincial services that made a window for people - actually some of them were government employees who then went private. So I think for us our concern is, number one, to deliver services to farmers and how the private sector can mesh into that and I think that will tend to be up to them. I don't think we're going to be so concerned about us dovetailing, I think we're going to be more concerned about delivery of service with taxpayers' dollars.
MR. GLAVINE: In that regard I know there has always been a very strong relationship with the Nova Scotia Agricultural College and especially any kind of research work that is going on, new developments that they can take to the farmer, and one little area I guess probably to finish off on a couple of questions around the Agricultural College. I know you and I were involved with the previous government, with seeing the transfer and the transition from government-run to more private engagement at the university, right from the president down. I'm wondering where that transition is now, and if in fact, it has taken place completely?
[6:15 p.m.]
MR. MACDONELL: I guess in trying to get an answer, I may have missed the last part of your question. The Agricultural College and the work it does is really quite significant actually. I did a bit of a tour a week or so ago and I was really impressed with the areas under research - very impressed. I think that for us you have to - although the Agricultural College is soon going to be an entity separate from government by and large, which will be very good, I think, for them - we want to be able to take anything that's happening on the research side, to get it to the innovation side, to get a practical application on the ground that allows you to develop a product that you can value add and sell in the marketplace. So we are pushing for
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an agri-innovation centre in the industrial park, AgriTECH Park Inc., and that's another thing we're hoping to soon be able to announce.
So, yes, we're actually really excited that could happen and there are a number of things, I have to say that I'm impressed, not just necessarily with researchers who are Ph.D.s, but things that farmers have worked on, on their own and then needed to be able to take it to the next level for development and that's really what we're hoping this centre will do and the thing that is so elusive for farmers is to get those dollars out of the value chain. So I see that as a key component of moving the industry forward in the 21st Century and actually bridging that distance between - we always used to say the gate and the plate but it's even more than that now, that there will be a level of research and a bit of marketing that will help develop these new products from agricultural crops.
MR. GLAVINE: With just a very short time remaining, Mr. Minister, I know that the Agricultural College has in fact been able to sign agreements with a number of foreign countries to bring students, especially for their third and fourth years - their Bachelor of Science in Agriculture. How are we doing in attracting Nova Scotians to the Agricultural College?
MR. MACDONELL: I was at the college a few days ago and enrolment is up this year and from whatever you might want to deem as local students. I've got to say, I think they're quite impressed. I mean, the numbers are quite good, almost I would say, to their point of capacity but certainly reaching. The numbers of young people who decided to do, I think in particular it was all sciences, I think that's maybe where the biggest upswing has been, but yes, very encouraging the numbers of students who have chosen the Agricultural College this year.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Hants West.
MR. CHUCK PORTER: Mr. Chairman, through you I would like to thank the minister. I'm pleased to have the opportunity this evening to ask a few questions and I want to thank you for your time here and your staff. I know it's a considerable amount of work and effort to go through this little phase in the budget we call Estimates.
It's interesting, just following up on the question you just answered for the honourable member for Kings West, that you see the numbers as quite good and you're encouraged. I had that down as a question as well. Any idea - and in going back, I don't know how many years, farming has seemed to be fading over the years in comparison - did the numbers take a drop, do we know, consistently? I've never gone back to look but have you, since becoming minister or over your 11 years as critic - I'm sure you paid close attention to the numbers of the AC, I'm just curious if you might know what "quite good" means by way of actual numbers?
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MR. MACDONELL: I don't think I actually have a number. That's something I could get for you because obviously that's a recorded history. I really have to take my cue from (Interruption) I can't give you a year but numbers, generally around 700 to 800 for a number of years was a kind of a low but this year it's up to 900 and I think if my memory is right from the discussions I had there, I think around 1,100 would be max, so anyway, they're very encouraged by the numbers.
MR. PORTER: That is encouraging given that you and I both have a number of farmers still in our areas, thankfully. I have attended federation meetings and just talked to farmers in general. Certainly campaigning we hear a lot from the farmers and knocking on their doors and such and they're almost of a lost hope, especially some of the senior farmers. Maybe not all the younger farmers are that way, but I know a lot of the guys and the gals who have been in it for a lifetime, who are well into their 60s, 70s, 80s, they're very concerned about where this is all going to go. They've worked this land, their fathers and grandfathers before them, for centuries these farms have been in these families. What we're certainly seeing is that the sons and daughters tend to be taking a different direction and when you talk to these older farmers they're going, and rightfully so, there's nothing left for them. They seem to be very discouraged by it all and so your numbers of those attending the Agricultural College are quite impressive actually, if a substantial number are from here at home in Nova Scotia.
I know, from talking to these farmers and the young farmers too, they're wondering what does tomorrow bring? They've made a commitment, they've gone to the AC and they've taken all the education they can to assist them through their farming years and they're wondering if they are the last generation. Certainly they're wondering, I think now, we've seen something historical by way of you've mentioned, the NDP, it's a change for them and people are curious. I think that's one where they're interested to see. We've heard from you for 11 years in Opposition as the critic, about how maybe agriculture could be done or should be done and you have some ideas to offer. I think that's great, we look forward to seeing what some of those are.
My question though would be - and I think the young people out there, the young farmer and probably the old farmer too would ask - you talk about a 10-year plan, what have you got to offer these young farmers today? Are there some tidbits you want to talk about here with regard to, where's my encouragement, why should I stay in this, why shouldn't I make sure that I move on to something else and start my children down another road of lawyers, doctors, whatever, car salesmen and women, et cetera, why should we keep the family farm going, what's in it for us?
MR. MACDONELL: I've got to tell you if I had a definitive answer for you right now, you may question it, but I don't and I am hoping in the next months I will. As I said to the member for Kings West, I see profitability as the reason that older farmers should worry about whether or not there's going to be younger farmers taking over their farms. Some of the
[Page 20]
people who have been in it for a number of years, they will see their equity disappearing and so I think, for them, in order for their children to be encouraged, I think they have to see that even though there have been some rough spots, the issue around income and so on, cash flow is there.
I mean if you look at what the apple industry was to the Province of Nova Scotia 50 years ago, it's a much smaller industry right now but actually it's a very strong component of the agricultural sector, the new varieties that have come on stream, and we're not necessarily always shipping barrels of apples, we're selling individual apples - like if you look at the Honeycrisp, and then the question of, at what point does that max out, everybody gets into it, and what's the next variety? You need a product and you need a processing side, if you think of Sarsfield pies, what they've done for consumption or use of apples in the Valley and a market for apples.
So I have to say that not everybody is going to go down that chain when I mentioned about Withrow's and Jim Lorraine and Jim Lamb, not everybody will do that, but there will be those areas I'm sure - I think one of the ones that stares us directly in the face is that if anybody had said 50 years ago there would be a wine industry in Nova Scotia and you look at the acres of grapes that are planted and actually the thing that I found most interesting about people I talk to in the wine industry is they're on to something that they deem to be a good thing but they don't discourage you from entering it, they don't worry that there will be too many people doing it, they encourage people to do it.
They need the grapes. The industry needs the grapes. They want to see the industry grow and this has been another one of those shining areas. I mean two years ago you and I would have been talking about the two greatest farm gate sales practically in the province, which would have been mink and blueberries. Well, we can see what the global economy has done to blueberry prices and so on. So, not everything is rosy all the time but I think those things, to get to the point of your question, is what would make farmers or young farmers think that there's a reason to have hope and be encouraged by a New Democratic Government is, I think, to actually take the time to examine what it is the stakeholders have already been trying to tell government.
I mean, we always say about studies, but the Nova Scotia Federation of Agriculture commissioned the transition study which we refer to as the Kelco report and I think that's why I feel it's incumbent on me to make sure that thing is examined to the nth degree to see what the potential is, to actually address the concerns the farmers raised when they asked to have that done.
So those are the types of initiatives I would like to see, that would actually answer the questions that I have, that would give me direction, hopefully, in a very short time to start to turn the industry in a particular direction.
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MR. PORTER: Thank you, minister, for that answer and it's interesting - profitability, I guess that's what it's always about. We have to make a living and one of the key things, what I remember in speaking with farmers, not only at campaign time but all the time we meet these folks is you have to include the people who know, the consultation with the farmers, not just the boards and the groups but the actual guy out there farming the fields who knows what it's all about. There's great knowledge in this province from these individuals - young and old. I couldn't believe what I was learning. I thought I knew a lot about farming. I knew nothing really. The science of growing, all the technology and the way things are changing is just phenomenal and the different things they use, tools and everything else, when it comes to growing things.
You mentioned apples, a very interesting industry, certainly in my area with Mason Apples shipping internationally and is very successful as is the wine industry. You're quite right, we probably wouldn't have been talking a couple years ago about how successful the wine industry is and there's room to grow so to speak in that industry for sure, but back to the profitability. Do you see, and is there another way, we talk about everything is a commodity. That seems to be more of an issue. It's a hindrance rather than a help. What other ways are there, other than commodities, for a farmer to make a living?
[6:30 p.m.]
MR. MACDONELL: Well, I think the three examples that I use are people who moved away from the commodity style and tried to create their own value chain and their own little market. So there will be people who will try to think outside the box and the question of what kind of volume they can generate, whether it's through farmers' markets or whatever. I have to say that probably - I know we're noted for very diversified farming operations in the province. That's why some of those federal-provincial programs quite often don't work for us. They're based on a western grain model, a monoculture, but when you mentioned the Agricultural College and the enrolment of students, we are known for having one of the best educated farming communities in North America.
We have very well educated farmers. We have diversification on our farms and well, I won't say 50 years ago but maybe 75 years ago there was a component on a farm that was an energy component because you did your work with horses. You grew your own hay. You grew your own oats. You supplied the fuel for your machinery, for your engine, that actually did the farm work and I think in the 21st Century this is a place we may want to think about going back to. I know there has been some talk about, I don't think the corn ethanol model is the one we want to go with, but I do believe, whether it's some component of wind for farm operations, whether it's, I think there is a place for grass pellets. I think that's a way farmers can diversify their income.
So I think if you're trying to move away from the single commodity model, which many operations are and maybe a number of places that are possibilities, maybe a small hog
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operation, organic mill, grass pellets, organic vegetables, maybe it will take three, four or five things on a farm to make a living, but I see potential in a number of those. So I think it's probably for the department to have that expertise and some flexibility and programs that allow young people and maybe even some older people to get there.
MR. PORTER: It's interesting you say that, I guess in your thoughts about diversification, it's not getting rid of, it's adding to, and do you see that as - we still have to have cattle and beef. We still have to have pork, et cetera. How far can you go with diversification - is it many farms in small pieces? Is that how you envision this, minister?
MR. MACDONELL: Well, obviously we're saying diversification, so we're not talking one size fits all. So it would depend I guess on availability of land, whether that's something that has been in the family for generations, or whether or not you actually are someone who is a very unique individual, who actually never had an agricultural background, didn't grow up on a farm but actually has started a farming operation, so access to capital, what your land base would need to be and probably starting out smaller rather than larger and allowing that to grow.
I definitely see a lot of flexibility in those supply-managed sectors, that if they were smaller rather than larger, would give that steady cash flow you could count on, that you're going to have, you know what you're going to get for your product every day. Then that gives you some flexibility for lending or for borrowing and to try to add other components to your farming operation.
A lot of that will depend on how much expertise you have, the availability of people around to help you, if there were six smaller operations and they wanted to share a piece of equipment, do custom among themselves. There are a number of things that are possibilities. It takes unique personalities to go down that road because one thing about farmers, they're usually quite independent and the fact that we have a supply-managed sector at all just goes to show that they were able to build bridges to hold that together.
MR. PORTER: There was a time - and you alluded to it a few minutes ago in some of your comments - that maybe it was 50 years ago, maybe it was 30, there was a turning point somewhere. Farming used to work or it used to be profitable because there were many in it obviously. Times have changed, technology has changed, our lifestyles have changed, it's the quick now versus maybe the more - how many of us are actually interested in the buy local piece? I think there are a lot. When you talk to people they talk the talk anyway and I think there are a lot of people that support that, but there has got to be somewhere, some way that it can come back. I believe that there is in all honesty, I think maybe we just haven't figured it all out yet but I think that it does exist somewhere and maybe it is in diversification.
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You mentioned in your opening comments what the numbers for - I'll just go to cattle - how much we consume versus how much we grow here. Can you just give me the numbers again, minister?
MR. MACDONELL: Mr. Chairman, the number I was told - and this was some time ago, I'm going back five years, we finish about 8,000 head of cattle a year and bring in the equivalent of 9,000 head a month. You have to understand the context of that was that by and large we've been cow/calf operations. We raised feeder cattle that generally got shipped somewhere else, predominantly Prince Edward Island and got finished there because, well, they have a, I think it's a legislated rotation from the potato industry to grow - the next year you grow grain so there's always an equivalent number of acres in grain from the previous year's potato crop.
Then there was a lot of waste by-product from the potato industry, there was relatively cheap grain. Then from the processing sector there was a lot of by-product that could fatten cattle. Some of that material is now being used for energy production, so that component for fattening cattle is not necessarily there the way it used to be so that the industry for Nova Scotia as far as cow/calf operations is not necessarily the one that we would promote like we used to a few years ago.
The number that you asked for - I'm making a long story long, we used to finish about 8,000 head a year and bring in about 9,000 head a month. About $200 million consumer dollars would be spent on beef that came from somewhere else.
MR. PORTER: Just on those numbers then, that's a lot of numbers. That's a lot of cattle coming in. We're purchasing a lot, yet we don't have the ability, the interest or what is it that the farmer, the cattle producer here - I mean, that's a lot of turnover, that's a lot of cattle, that's a lot of money. Is there potential that that cattle, maybe not all of it, but a higher number than 8,000 could be grown in Nova Scotia?
MR. MACDONELL: Oh yes, for sure. I mean, absolutely. I think the comment I made earlier was around our ability to grow grass. You can finish cattle on grass, you don't have to have as much imported grain to do that. I don't have the numbers, but I'm sure they probably exist somewhere, of what we finished 50 years ago. We didn't bring in a lot of Western beef, once upon a time Nova Scotians grew most of whatever they consumed.
Right now we know that there's a market for beef. We're just not eating a lot of Nova Scotia beef. So already it's a product that Nova Scotians are used to, they like it, they'll buy it and they're willing to pay significantly for it. So that side of marketing, that part of it, rather than trying to introduce emu or something that they're not used to and trying to develop a market for that - but they're quite comfortable with beef.
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One of the problems is that if you're bringing in 9,000 head a month and you only finish 8,000 head a year, you've only got about a month's supply and that's if it was all and ready in one month. So, at some point there is going to have to be a whole realignment of the industry, in discussion with the retail sector, that we can enter this circle somewhere, that we can't supply all that you want, but if you would buy the little bit we can supply at a certain price, over time we can supply it. So I don't think that discussion has ever taken place but those are things that really need to be done in order to find out whether or not there's any appetite to give this thing the kick-start it really needs and that product for the retail sector has to be something that's consistent, that they rely on, that they can ensure their customers will be there and the quality that they want time and time again.
MR. PORTER: It's interesting that you mentioned that part because I've had an awful lot of discussion with farmers around that part and just people in general with regard to the retail sector here. I know that you can't dictate, or you can't legislate even maybe, and I'm not sure if we would ever go down that road, but there has got to be a way for the big chains to be able to buy that supply locally. We're looking for new ways, we're looking to continue with the buy local, the Select Nova Scotia programs, et cetera, and the Atlantic area and all around, and Sobeys, and Loblaw's, et cetera, all buy from wherever they can get the most quantity, and probably best price. All of those things are a factor.
We continue to sink money into the industry over the years. We've done a fair bit of that in numerous ways whether it's hogs, cattle, whatever it might be. I wonder if there has been any thought given by yourself or the department on, instead of money going directly maybe to the farmer, does it go to the retail industry to help offset the cost of the - whatever, maybe there isn't even a difference, I don't know. You may know this but are they going to pay more for it locally, really at the end of the day, if they're buying all that we can supply?
MR. MACDONELL: Yes, I'm not entirely clear on your question. Are they going to pay more than they pay to get it from somewhere else, will they pay that to the local farmer, I think is what your question is. (Interruption) Yes, well, look, without having that conversation with the large retailers, I'm thinking that they see a value, it's my understanding they see a value in this buy local concept. They would see a value in selling a high quality, healthy product if they knew that they had some consistent supply for that. I'm not entirely sure that I want to enter taxpayers' dollars into that value chain to try to - I mean it has been suggested about buying shelf space and having a certain area. That's not my keenest notion, I have to say. I'm probably willing to try almost anything to see if it would work, as long as there was some agreement, that I could be sure, about the benefit for the local producer and it has got to be a benefit for consumers.
MR. PORTER: I guess that's what I was getting at. I wasn't really suggesting that we put taxpayers' money into the pockets of the retailer. It was along those lines exactly. That would have been my follow-up with that, there are other ways and have they been considered. As you said, you've been 11 years the critic and you've often spoken, I know, in this House
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about your ideas on things that might work and now that you have the opportunity in the months ahead and the years ahead, we will have an opportunity to see some of those suggestions come out of that.
I understand the issue, they need to buy in quantity as well and they have to have the supply on the shelf for the consumer to buy and the consumers want the best price, there's no question. It appears, along with everything else, whether it's beef or pork or vegetables, we're paying more money for locally grown supply. On the locally grown supply, you talked a few minutes ago about the labelling. Has any more gone into the labelling of Nova Scotia products? That's a question I've been asked numerous times by both hobby farmers and the bigger farmer. They obviously see it as important. I know Mason Apples doesn't necessarily - they may have a Mason Apples bag with their apples in it but they also have another bag with their apples in it with a different number on it, still they're apples. How do you see that working? I think it's a big part of what we do here and people are very interested in it.
MR. MACDONELL: I guess the only mechanism that we're using right now is Select Nova Scotia and a volunteer enterprise. There are those issues around traceability and so on that actually - country of origin labelling, which is one of the parts of the perfect storm for the bottom falling out of the hog industry nationally. It didn't actually impact us two years ago but certainly the rest of the country right now. That's only one of the things, it seems H1N1 has impacted how much consumers consume, but this country of origin labelling, where 4 million hogs a year would go from Manitoba to the United States to be processed, that has shut that off.
[6:45 p.m.]
Yes, the issue of what you can do locally, I'm keen on promoting Nova Scotia and as much as I see there is an appetite for Atlantic, within that Atlantic envelope I would like to have some assurance that we could still label Nova Scotia product as Nova Scotian. I feel some obligation, if we're going to use taxpayers' dollars to help promote Nova Scotia agriculture, you sure don't want to see it in the display case labelled as an Atlantic product. Although for the retailers, as far as distribution for them, that might be a very easy thing. Probably we'd be keen to have it as Atlantic if it's going out of the province but Nova Scotian if it's staying.
Anyway, I'm not sure what the parameters are as far as legislating, I think it's impossible actually. I think the interprovincial trade agreement has a limiting clause in Chapter 9 that says you can't interfere with the flow of agricultural goods. I think to do all the things you can, to help nudge in a particular direction, we should be trying to do what we can.
MR. PORTER: You're right, you can't interfere but you can certainly enhance and I would see that as nothing more than enhancing it. We care certainly about Atlantic, we care about all of Canada but we care, I personally, a lot about Nova Scotia too. I think everybody
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does and I know you do and all of us do and any way that we can move that product is very important but I see it as jobs, personally. We look at whether it's cattle, whether it's apples, regardless of what it is, there's a processing piece there. We've just lost jobs, as you're aware, in the Valley with regard to processing. Yes, that may have been chicken but what's next is basically the question and that's what everybody is asking. When will we be cut? What's next? All they see is the negative.
Again it keeps coming back to the 10-year plan and the people will be very anxious for the months ahead that you mentioned and the plan that you may have in your department. I see it as jobs because somebody has to do it and why shouldn't we be paying Nova Scotians to do it. If we're going to invest again, I say invest in our own people. There are ways to do that, that can be effective. I honestly think, in talking to people, and I talk to an awful lot of people about this issue, that they would buy local if they knew what was local because the first thing when they talk about Buy Nova Scotia, Select Nova Scotia, Buy Local, they don't know what tomato or what grape, et cetera is local. I mean, the seasons, you can do some of that but they really don't know. They certainly don't know where their meat is coming from. They're always curious and H1N1 is just one more thing to add to, oh, I don't know whether I should buy that or not. Well, they don't know what it is or where it's from. Yes, we may only be putting out one-twelfth, that we're moving along in this province and it's not even that much I guess, but it would be important, I think that they would sell. I think it would be a step closer to moving the local product if they knew for a fact that it was local product. I think that's questioned quite often and I hope there's a plan in place to do that labelling and again, coming back to the processing, that would be jobs either in the Valley, or as long as they're in the province as well.
I don't know if you have a plan with regard to the processing industry, if we're going to grow the farm industry then obviously the economy should grow along with it. Did we see job growth come back in the processing industry? Any plans for that instead of taking it out? I know we're shipping out now. We're shipping our chickens, wherever we're shipping them, Quebec or someplace. There would be many who would argue they should never be shipped out, it can be done here. We have the ability and maybe it does cost more, but I think, and I'm no accountant or finance person, but if you did the numbers and you looked at the value of the jobs and EI and you did the full circle, it may be surprising, and then the people ending up off EI, on Community Services benefits and all of that. In the long term, are we really looking at the long term when we think, broadly? What are your thoughts on that, minister?
MR. MACDONELL: Well, look, I have to say that I have met with chicken producers and turkey producers and when you think about supply-managed commodities, then you don't want to lose that quota from your province. You want those birds, number one, produced here, number two, you want them processed here, because that gives us those processing jobs which are those value-added jobs. So as far as processing goes, we want processing. If we have the raw product that we can produce relatively easily, we want the processing of that product here as much as possible.
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I think you probably remember the hue and cry around fish that make it to the dock here, get loaded on a truck, hauled to Newfoundland for processing, and caught off the coast of Nova Scotia. We see those extra tier jobs, those value-added jobs, as the ones that pay better and leave more money in the economy. As much as the government is not going to own the processing, that's not really where we want to be, but for those who - and I'm glad to see the initiative of the chicken producers in the province on this, but it looks as though they're coming up with a plan around a new plant.
I think they're hoping, they're giving themselves an 18-month window to have all that ready, but if things go the way they seem to indicate they possibly could, then we would expect them to go to Economic and Rural Development the same as any other interested business in the province and make their business case and establish a facility. I have to say, we would be interested in advising Economic and Rural Development to do what they can as much as possible to ensure that that stays. So, yes, those are the ones that we see as sustainable and, in particular, a supply-managed area.
When we talk about buying local, we don't consider that we are 100 per cent sustainable in this province in milk, chicken and eggs. All Nova Scotians can go to the supermarket - that pretty much it's going to be a local product in those three commodities. Then there's those other kind of bright spots that are happening and, you don't hear people talk much about maple syrup. We don't hear much talk about the cheese industry but that's another one that is doing well. There are entrepreneurs interested in venturing out there with a slightly different product and they seem to be quite popular. The one we mentioned already is the wine industry. So those are three. Now, while the potential for them to supply all of what we would consume is probably high, you probably wouldn't see one particular cheese producer doing all of that but there's a good market there and they seem to be able to get the dollars they need out of the value chain, so those kind of high-end products.
So, yes, we would encourage, whether it's on the farmer side which sometimes, there are those who are farmers who have engaged in the processing side and invested in it. You're starting to see more of that - trying to control more of the value chain - but if they're purely going to be, not marketers, they're going to be primary producers, then we would encourage co-operatives or whatever that we could get them together.
Northumberland is a co-operative of sheep producers and I'm a member. I wasn't around necessarily in the early stages of when that developed but their entire access to the retail market has been based purely on the idea that if someone buys a lamb, if it's a restaurant or Sobeys or whoever, that if they buy a lamb today, that in six months or a year the next lamb would be of the same quality. They grade them, they send the information back to the farmer about how your animal graded. They dock you if it's too fat. They dock you if it's too thin. You get a premium price for a premium carcass and that has forced producers to actually feed to that requirement so they can ensure their customers they will have a steady supply of high-quality lamb all the time.
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That was one of the issues for sheep producers. There wasn't really any regulated - or marketplace, you took your lambs to whatever sale or sold them wherever, no consistency in the quality, and they basically single-handedly have been the place to beat when it comes to the quality of lamb in this province, and that was a co-operative by sheep producers, or I should say it's two co-operatives. It's the Northumberland Lamb Marketing Co-Op Ltd. and then there's Brookside Abattoir Co-Op Ltd. So they kind of work hand in hand. That's an old idea but it has its place in 21st Century agriculture.
MR. PORTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, you hit on a couple of interesting points there. One, there are still some highlights in the agricultural industry, there are quite a few. Some of the more important ones seem to be the ones suffering, if you want to call them more important, obviously the cattle, the bigger ones and maybe not more or less important but the bigger ones, cattle and hogs, as we've known over the last few years have really suffered a lot. It's interesting the co-op movement has changed considerably over the years as well, an interesting idea, an old idea, coming back.
You commented earlier about stepping back, and the farming industry, I think we're going to have to step back and certainly review and have a look to see what did work and will maybe work again. A question I have for you with regard to all of the buy local, we hear an awful lot about buying local, buy local. In your opinion, what is your definition of local?
MR. MACDONELL: Mine is Nova Scotian and actually I contacted the federal government a few years ago to find out if they had a definition. They didn't have one. Well, I think they said whatever could be purchased in your local area. They used local in the definition of local. We used to hear that anything that you can haul within 24 hours, that you could deliver within 24 hours, that was local. That doesn't exist. I guess a store can put up whatever sign they want to say whatever local is and you, as a purchaser, could decide whether or not that's the definition you want to buy by, but really, to me, it's produced in Nova Scotia and actually probably processed in Nova Scotia, too, that would work for me.
MR. PORTER: I agree. There's a lot of rumour, if that's what it is, with regard to whatever you can bring in within 24 hours. I've heard that for a very long time and I'm thinking, no. People ask me my definition of local - it's how long does it take to drive across our province, if it's eight hours from tip to tip, fine and dandy, that's what local is. You can bring a lot in, even in eight hours, depending on how you move it these days, but I agree, local is our own grown locally, produced, and processed Nova Scotia product. I think that's very important.
You talked a little while ago as well about the environmental impact and how it overrules pretty much everything in this province. Regardless of what you're doing, it has significant impact and does overrule. How often is the farming industry surveyed or assessed? Do they come out annually to your farm, for example, have a look around and make sure things are status quo or meeting all. It's especially, of course, on our minds these days with
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some of the algae things and I know that they're blaming the mink farmers but we're finding it in other rivers in the province where there are no mink farmers for many, many miles around. So I'm just kind of curious as to what the rules are around that and if it's being done and how it's monitored and so on?
[7:00 p.m.]
MR. MACDONELL: I would say it's not being monitored and I don't think it's being monitored any more than, say, lots of other industries. We have the Farm Practices Act. If people in a particular area think there's an issue with what's happening on a farm, they can make a complaint under the Farm Practices Act but that's not what the Department of Environment is going to act on.
If somebody calls the Department of Environment and thinks there's a stream being contaminated or whatever, somebody is going to show up there and take a look. Basically it seems to be more complaint driven, and I don't know that we would have staff enough to make - if you're going to do what you just asked, you're not going to knock on the door and say how are things going? You're going to have to do a fairly intensive kind of walk around the operation and there is lots of regulation around the products that are used on farms to begin with, but that doesn't mean that we want them running into streams or whatever.
So, no, I would say you're probably not going to have a circumstance where you have a lot of bodies going around the province to ask or to check on things. If it turns out to be an issue, generally somebody will find it and call. Although, I would like to see some way, it would be an advantage I think, when farms have environmental farm plans and they have a program in place of things that they should achieve, that there be some way to help them with that to ensure that, if somebody calls up in a year or two to say, have you had a chance to implement this or that, and to see whether or not they're able to make the best use of their environmental farm plan.
MR. PORTER: Just on that, are you talking a checklist, I guess for lack of a better word at the present time, that would be something that would be - the environmental farm plan, would you see that as a benefit to the insurance of the farmers, how does that benefit the farmer overall?
MR. MACDONELL: I think it's a reassurance for the public, I think they would like to know that farmers in their neighbourhood have environmental farm plans. I think they would like to think of them as good environmental stewards. There are certain programs offered through the department that you can only access if you have an environmental farm plan. So if you're going to have programs that are offered, that are based on taxpayers' dollars helping to fund something, then probably it would be that extra step to reassure the public those plans are not just done to access programs, but there's actually some follow-up to ensure the plan is implemented. Right now, getting an environmental farm plan, the incentive is the
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programs but there are lots of farms in the province that don't have them yet. They can't access programs but it would be a nice thing to encourage more people to do it, but have some kind of oversight to help them along with their plan. If you're not making any money and you need to spend money implementing your plan, it's probably not going to happen very quickly and you probably don't have any money to contribute to a program just because you could access it with an environmental farm plan.
MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, yes, that's probably quite accurate, there would be a lack of funds there for it. How many, or do you know, I mean recently we're hearing a lot about the mink farmers, as I alluded to earlier, and some contamination, but I don't recall in recent years hearing where there have been a lot of issues with the environment and farmers.
I know in my area, I can't think of any right off the top of my head, who have been involved in an environmental issue that has been a complaint. That's why I was curious, I know enforcement would be very difficult. We could never hire enough people to continually go to every farm, even annually probably, to do a proper inspection and I'm not suggesting that we do, but I was curious as to, are we getting a lot of complaints with regard to farmers and environmental issues around the farms? Most of them have been there for centuries obviously and I'm curious about that and specifically, as I said, I've not heard any in my own area.
MR. MACDONELL: Actually, I have to say, in my time as minister the only issue that has come up recently was around mink farming and they haven't really identified if it was a mink farm that actually was the issue, but generally across the board I don't get a lot of complaints.
I tell you, as an Opposition member for 11 years, if I got a call about a complaint, and I got more than one of them, it was when the price of milk went up and they almost always blamed it on the farmer. Farmers across the country got the same price for milk, I think there might be a cent a litre difference from the Ontario/Manitoba border west, I think they might get one cent a litre less than they do east, but generally across the country the price to farmers is the same, but if the price of milk went up in Nova Scotia, I could pretty near count on at least one call if not more, but as far as any environmental concerns, I hardly remember a call.
MR. PORTER: Thank you, minister, for that and I just want to move on to a couple of different things. I have a few minutes left for this round. We talked a little bit about the farmers' markets earlier and I'm more interested in, well, in all the farmers' markets, but locally we have a farmer's market that exists through the summer months and into October in Windsor. They've struggled since they've been in operation to try to draw people out and to make a go of it and to sell their products, their fresh Valley wares and so on, regardless of what it is they're selling.
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Has the new government any ideas, or you, as minister, how are we going to help these, and most of them are farmers for the most part, I guess, at the market. Again, it's this Buy Local piece but they're very interested in how do we get off the ground? Is there anything available to them to help them market or things like that, so that they can survive and they can attract people? The folks locally have done many things. They've brought in music, they've done what everyone else is doing and it's very hard. Again, it's this whole farming community that have lost a bit of hope, and you try to get a drive on and try to incent them, is there something out there to, again it's about buying local and to help support the local, but it's another piece of driving the local, these local farmers' markets, the weeklies, what's out there for them? Is there anything at all in the future? I know dollars and cents are always the bottom line, it's an issue, not only for farmers but for all industry and most of us across the province. I'm curious if there is anything coming up, that you see, by way of helping out the local farm markets around the variety of different towns and villages.
MR. MACDONELL: Yes, I have to say that it is one of those new ventures that's out there. Not only does the public seem to be really keen to see farmers' markets but there are those people who are looking at that as an avenue for a venue to sell what they produce. Through the Community Development Trust Fund, we've made a total investment of $2.3 million over three years and this is one that I think probably deserves a real look.
There are a couple of complications I see in trying to promote farmers' markets, mainly because you're dealing with independent individuals. It seems that, although they usually form a development association or a core body of directors or whatever, but depending on where they're at and who might use other forms of marketing - if you're a fairly well-established farmer and you've developed your own marketing strategies and so on, that just may not be an option for you. You've already done all that legwork. The question for the purchasing public - when Mrs. Jones wakes up on Saturday morning, farmers' markets are just one of those other options that are available to her for what she's thinking of doing for that day. They have to be there in a way that they're really offering her something that she can't get everywhere else.
One of the key components to farmers' markets, that I see, is farmers. I mean, there are people who will sell jewellery and crafts and some of them will make bake bread, but I think when the public walk in and there isn't a farmer necessarily at one of the booths then they start to wonder, is this a farmers' market? In order to, I think, encourage them and expand them and develop them, it has to be a place that farmers feel that it's cost effective for them.
Quite often if it's some of those farmers who have already established all their marketing and are doing well enough, they probably don't see that. They probably see that as a day they don't have to market, they could be home and do other things, but it provides a great opportunity, I think, for young farmers or people who are new to farming. They start growing some extra and they say, gee, I think I could move this at the farmers' market and so
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it develops that chain reaction, that if they move it, they get the price they want and then next year they think about, well, maybe I'll do a little more. People seem to like this, but they weren't really keen on that and I'll do more of that.
Yes, I think that not all of them are exactly identical but they have to offer a wide variety of services or products that brings in the maximum number of people. It's always easier when you're in a major centre because you have so many more people to deal with. Yes, they're a marketing option and I think that as much as we can support them we should do that.
MR. PORTER: I agree, I think that there's a huge difference between a farm market and a flea market, I guess that's what they still call them these days and you do see some of those. You mentioned, I think it was $2.3 million that there is to be invested over so many years, how would one or a group per se - I think that maybe there have to be some guidelines around, you can't sell jewellery at the local farm market, if that's going to be something you're going to go after some program funding for. That's as much a question as I guess it is a statement. Is this something that you just spoke about, is that what you're talking about? It would have to be strictly farm related, selling farm product, because that does exist. You do see that oddity that you just talked about as well, something new that the farmers are trying or a farmer might try and it does sell very well at the farm market. It might not sell elsewhere and no call for it, but it does sell well on that Saturday morning market.
The bigger pieces in talking to these folks is the promotional piece. How do we get people here? How do we see people being reminded that Saturday mornings we have a farm market? Is there opportunity for funds in what you're talking about here for a location? That's always a key piece, and you're right. Here in town, in Halifax, it's fine, everybody knows where it is, it's a big part. Maybe in some of the bigger centres, certainly in Windsor it's struggling, there's no question, it's always struggling. Is it location? It's always about money and the farmers are sinking their own money in to try to figure it out. Where are the incentives in some of this money, and how do you get to it?
MR. MACDONELL: I'll get you details on that because I don't have them at the tip of my tongue and I don't have them on the tip of my paper. Yes, I'm assuming there's a process around getting that, so we'll see that you get it.
[7:15 p.m.]
MR. PORTER: Thank you, I'd appreciate that because I have an awful lot of people who are asking, and once they hear again that maybe there are some funding opportunities out there, it will be the first question - well, how do I go about getting that? Is there an application form? Is it a phone call? What is that? Like many programs, that's always the first question, how to access it. Maybe it's a little bit over a number of years and I know we have a lot of farm markets out there, they're everywhere. On Saturdays you can drive or whatever other
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days of the week, there are all kinds of different aspects of the farm market. Thank you for that, and I'll look forward to that information.
On the Incredible Picnic, I want to thank you and Lawrence for coming down on a rather hurricaney day, but it was actually the lighter of the two weekends. It turned out pretty good for us. I think we were one of two. I'm not sure if Antigonish went or not, but we ended up actually having not a bad crowd show up at the end of the day and gave away an awful lot of corn and had a lot of fun doing it. Promoting the agriculture piece is what we enjoy about it. This is why we've done it two years in a row, and I enjoy taking part in it. It's certainly not the same as having it down yonder in the park - very successful last year, I think because it had a lot of promotion last year.
Is there a thought about the promotion of this year being more in depth? It seemed like it was short notice for us this year, and I don't know if it was or not. I don't know if it was an election year that maybe was responsible for nobody really knowing whether we were having it or not having it, et cetera. It's a great idea and people look forward to it, and when they heard we were still having ours, they were confused because what they heard was they were cancelled. Perhaps there shouldn't have been any opportunity, it should have just been, the rule is one or the other - we're either on or we're not. That certainly created some confusion. I think we may have spoken about it the day you were there. It was kind of odd to have it, and of course the weather didn't help.
Next year and in the years ahead - and I hope it does continue for a good number of years - the same time of year or something you're looking at. What do you see for promoting this event, because again, it is a great community event?
MR. MACDONELL: Well, I see promoting it only on sunny days. I see that as a major component. Yes, look, I'm not clear on - I don't think it got less promotion than the year before, and I've got to tell you, you're right about the interest, really. This is one that I think hats off to my staff for sure on their efforts on this; this is something that the public seems to have latched on to. The Eat Atlantic Challenge, I have to say I couldn't get over the interest generated by that. Actually, hopefully in another year maybe we'll be able to have that interaction with the other ministers that we couldn't get to this year.
Certainly, definitely we'll be planning on in the Incredible Picnic. We'll think about what the member for Kings West had posed the question around alternate venues, and I'm just not sure how you coordinate that without confusing people about, if this happens then that will happen - and in Nova Scotia, I mean, it could be raining in the Valley and sunny in Enfield. So I can see that throwing another monkey wrench into the whole thing, but we're planning a winter event as well. I don't know if you want to scrape the snow off the picnic grounds, but anyway we're not done. So yes, it's a great initiative. People seem to be really keen on it and it's another way to promote local. As much as it does have that element of risk,
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that's not a reason to not do it. So as much as we can iron out the wrinkles or prevent them, we will, but definitely when you're dealing with the weather, it's an issue.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you, minister. I would like to just call order for a moment and indicate that the one hour has elapsed. Before we proceed, there has been a suggestion that we check with you and your staff to see if you would like a couple of minutes for a quick break before we proceed with the next hour. We will just suspend the time if you would require that.
MR. MACDONELL: I would like a little break.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are we in agreement of five minutes and then we'll proceed - two minutes, what would you like?
MR. MACDONELL: Sure, five minutes.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, great, thanks.
[7:19 p.m. The subcommittee recessed.]
[7:27 p.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, we would like to get this going again. I'm just going to note for the record that we will be starting at 7:27 p.m. and we will finish at 9:27 p.m.
The honourable member for Kings West.
MR. LEO GLAVINE: Thank you, Madam Chairman. When I finished off, Mr. Minister, I had asked a question around the number of Nova Scotia students attending the Agricultural College. I know enrolment is very strong; it has increased over the last two or three years in particular, some of it due to agreements with some foreign countries. I had to step out so I may not have heard your response, if you were able to find or determine actual numbers of what the pattern has been. If you could provide me with that, either now or later, it would be much appreciated.
MR. MACDONELL: Yes, I'll have to provide it later on, more on the breakdown. The enrolment this year is about 900 students, but how many of those are foreign students - I don't have that, but we can get that for you.
MR. GLAVINE: Madam Chairman, I asked that question as well because one of the items I noticed in the budget estimates is that scholarships to the Nova Scotia Agricultural College have been, I think, either cut out completely or dramatically reduced. I'm just wondering what scholarships and what area - is it new students that would be attending the
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Agricultural College? Is it students who would be doing research? I'm just wondering where this is going to impact.
[7:30 p.m.]
MR. MACDONELL: Yes, you're seeing a movement of dollars from administration to central services, so as far as monies that went to scholarships there really was no change.
MR. GLAVINE: One of the other areas when we talk about young farmers and the assistance and encouragement of young people to get into farming and those already there, that under the previous government we did have some trouble with getting support for young farmers to attend 4-H leadership conferences. I'm wondering if that's going to be strongly supported or at the same level or what the minister's views are. I remember both him and I being at one of the annual federation meetings in Truro and we were approached by some of the same young people. I know you have a pretty good memory there, former school teacher, but I'm wondering if you can remember those meetings when we had a few people say to us that they would love to attend the leadership forum but, in fact, there wasn't that much assistance available.
MR. MACDONELL: Yes, I do remember, and actually it's one that I'll have to investigate to see where we're at with that. As a kid I didn't participate in 4-H, but my children did, and I thought it was a great program so I'm keen to support it. I'll follow up on that with you and we'll find out. I'm just curious whether anybody has applied or anybody has asked about that from the community.
MR. GLAVINE: I'd have to check back as well because I noticed that the commitment from New Brunswick, P.E.I., and Newfoundland and Labrador was there, and it wasn't nearly as strong here in Nova Scotia. It's an Atlantic forum for young farmers in terms of developing leadership, and it had been brought to my attention again a couple of times, Kings County having still a pretty strong 4-H. These are generally in their 20s, young farmers who are still living and working with farm families and probably even some attending the Agricultural College. If you could provide a little bit more on that, that would be great.
I was going to move back to the beef industry for a few additional questions. The first thing, I meant to preface this by asking you a question around, and it doesn't have to be, I guess maybe sometimes it's hard to differentiate when a minister speaks representing the department and government, versus personal views, because I know that there wouldn't be a crystalized view around subsidies perhaps in the department, but I'm just wondering in general terms what your own personal bias or beliefs are towards subsidies?
MR. MACDONELL: Well, I think they're appropriate. I'm not keen to have a program where we're writing cheques to farmers, so much per animal, when you have a value chain market structure that's a bit out of whack. The fact that in 2004, if I'm correct, with BSC, the
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price to farmers was deplorable but the price in the grocery store didn't change one iota. There was a large difference between what farmers got in that whole value chain. We talked about soil amendments, limestone subsidy, in our campaign.
So that's one we would like to continue or fulfill, but a program to help with beef genetics, these are all ways that you can subsidize. Presently we help with the costs of provincial inspection in our abattoirs, so that's a form of subsidy as well and the cost for travel for veterinarians, large animal vets, so they don't charge you for travel. If your farm was right beside the vet clinic, you could hit it with a stone, but somebody else is 50 kilometres away, that call costs them the same because we subsidize the travel to the 50 kilometres.
If we're going to subsidize aspects of the industry, those are the places that we would like to see. We would like to have programs that promote innovation, use your money in the most creative and proactive way that helps move the industry forward, but as far as using taxpayers' dollars in income relief, we would really not like to see that. Those things do happen. I think the difficulty is trying to determine whether something is a blip in the market or whether it's a long-range decline in the market that's going to occur over a number of years. Blips you can probably fund, long-range declines, you can't.
MR. GLAVINE: Madam Chairman, I asked that question because, while there are considerable differences around the number of hog farmers versus the number of beef farmers - if we look back five years ago, and the figure that I had last quoted when there were about 100 hog producers in the province was about an $8 million direct influx for provincial revenues, and even if 50 per cent of that had gone back to farmers, we would still have an industry and we would have at least 200 to 300 people employed in that industry.
I'm not sure if we can look on, perhaps, the beef industry in quite the same way, because there are some distinct differences. However, survival of that industry may come down to, again, some ways of support. I look at this week and if this is going to be the pattern through the winter when over at the island beef plant, $1.26 this week and probably production costs are around $1.60 or $1.70, you know, how long can farmers sustain?
Now, I know for some of the upcoming cattle sales there is the start of what we'll see as a gradual depopulation. Some herds won't go entirely, because there are all kinds of different ages and so forth of the beef product, but I'm wondering if support to genetics, support to a particular breed and so forth, will be sufficient. So I'm just wondering, is there going to be anything looked at even around interest relief that may help farmers, again somewhat in the short term, to move into a full beef strategy that has both immediate needs, near needs, and perhaps longer term? So I'm just wondering if there's any direction emerging there at this time.
MR. MACDONELL: Well, you know, that's probably the best question of the night. Yes, if we're going to try to kick off an agricultural strategy, a 10-year strategy, it's not going
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to be worth much with no farmers around. I'm someone who always said that we need a short-term plan in order to get to a long-term plan. So the $1 million that we have in our budget for this year, which wasn't in the May 4th budget, and it's our intention to have another $1 million next year, but we're looking - and I haven't gotten consent as to what plan would be the way to do this, but my hope would be to do that around to make interest, to pay interest, you know, to do an interest buy-down, and either over two or three years that would leverage a fair bit of money to beef producers.
You're right about saying that the beef industry is not quite the same industry as the hog industry. They're not necessarily analogous. There's a fairly large sector of the beef industry that is, you know, somebody has an off-farm income and they keep 30 head of cattle or whatever, but there is a small component - but a significant component - of fairly large operations, and those are the ones that I'm quite concerned about losing. So I think the others will probably hang on. It's a question for them about how much of that other income they want to keep putting into their operation.
Now, if we were to do an interest buy-down, that would apply to all of them. So each person will have to kind of evaluate their own operation and decide what they want to do, but that's where I would like to go. I don't have a full commitment yet - I guess a document yet, to present to my colleagues.
MR. GLAVINE: Thank you, Madam Chairman. Yes, it's a document, it's a work in progress, then, in that respect. One of the questions I wanted to ask around that because, as you know, the burden of interest can be so real and painful when prices are low and you can't really attack it in a meaningful way.
MR. MACDONELL: Yes.
MR. GLAVINE: One of the restrictions, as we know, within the hog industry dealing with interest and the loans was that it was defined as the Farm Loan Board, and we also know that farm credit and other lending institutions come into play just because somebody has always dealt a lifetime - don't call it a business relationship - a commitment to the Royal Bank, for example. Are farmers going to be - and these are easy to investigate, what kind of loans they have and so on, but do you see it as being somewhat restrictive as the way the hog industry laid out some support for farmers?
MR. MACDONELL: Can you clarify your question a bit?
MR. GLAVINE: If a beef farmer - as we know, it really started with BSC, and especially anybody who was finishing their own beef and was purchasing grain, we know that that price was still fairly high through that period, so people took out loans and have loans from that period, really, because government did give some assistance at that time. We in Atlantic Canada had a very difficult time tapping into the federal programs. We just didn't fit
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the profile very well. If somebody has a loan from Farm Credit or a private institution, would their interest still be part of that program? Would it be an umbrella interest relief or would it just be the Farm Loan Board?
[7:45 p.m.]
MR. MACDONELL: One of the complaints I heard, as a member of the Opposition and a newly-minted minister, from a beef producer in my constituency - one of the things that really irked beef producers this Spring was that there was a loan program and then some of those loans got written off. What they complained about was, if I had known it was going to be written off I'd have taken the loan - common sense - so there was a lot of finger pointing and it really caused quite a rift in the industry.
For me, I'm not keen to have loans go through us. I'd rather see another lender do the loans, and we would think about the interest buy-down. Well, we wouldn't think about it, if that's the program we come out with, you know, that's it. Then that would kind of eliminate that assumption, oh well, at some point this will be written off, because my fear would be that if we did that through the Farm Loan Board, that's what people would expect is going to happen. I don't want them entering into that process with that in mind. That doesn't mean that they couldn't use the program to pay down principal and in effect pay down interest.
For whatever capacity, they're involved with us at the Farm Loan Board. We really would like to look at people individually, look at what they're doing. As I think I said in Question Period, we're kind of a compassionate and sympathetic lender, so we probably have a little more flexibility or would try to offer more flexibility than, say, other lenders might for their accounts.
Depending on what this program will look like - and I don't have it nailed down yet, I'm just thinking out loud - I'm trying to come up with something that gives us some options, gives them some options, and allows us to get the maximum benefit for relatively limited funds. If it turns out that we come up with something different or better that works and plus eliminates some of the problems that I saw that the programs of the previous government seemed to cause - so I don't want to go down that road. Anyway, we'd still like to be able to offer them something that will at least give them something to think about as a possible choice if money issues are the determining factor for staying in or getting out and to allow us this time for some investigation around the transition program under Kelco or whatever might be possible to allow us to move the industry forward and come up with - not just that industry, but a strategy for agriculture over 10 years. Anyway, that's about all I can say that might be hopefully helpful for them.
MR. GLAVINE: I'm asking this because at the end of the day here I'd like to see a lot more winners than losers, and we saw a heck of a lot more losers through the hog scenario than winners. I know that government has to be a catalyst here with helping the industry
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renew, and I'm certainly not as sympathetic to the person who has 10, 15, 20, 25 head of cattle and it's a bit of a hobby. I think distinguishing among those that are the bonafide farmers and that want to be in it for the long haul and go through this transition period here, hopefully then they will get the support from government and some of the direction that the industry needs to take itself.
A couple of related factors that are out there that we just can't deny is the fact that Nova Scotia farmers bought hooks at the beef plant in P.E.I. It's still open. I'm just wondering at this stage - and I know it's early for you, minister - but are you going to make an ongoing commitment? Nova Scotia has invested in the plant; it's sometimes hard to let go, and government just put a couple of million in not that long ago. What do you see of its future? That will also impact Nova Scotia producers. I was just wondering how you assess the current situation. It may not be the same in six months or a year from now. They were obviously negatively impacted by the fact that what everybody thought was a $6 million support from the federal government turns out to be a loan, so that's hurting. I'm just wondering how your current information is talking about the beef plant.
MR. MACDONELL: I've got to say, it's an item of which I haven't had any in-depth discussion, even with the minister from Prince Edward Island. When I met him at Niagara-on-the-Lake, and then he and I have talked since that meeting, I've got to say that his concerns were really more around the hog industry in P.E.I. I'm quite concerned, especially in these early days when I'm kind of finding my ground around what a beef strategy could look like and how to fund it and what its potential would be. I really see the value in a federally inspected plant, definitely, in order to make that retail link because I know for the retailers it's much easier for them to move product across borders with a retail plant.
With that, I think we all pretty well know the story about the plant in P.E.I., and so I would like to have a more fulsome discussion with the minister to find out what his thoughts are about the sustainability of the plant. I know that Nova Scotia producers seem to be quite keen that that plant continues to exist and is able to maintain some slaughter capacity for them. Yes, that probably is the more difficult part around having a facility in another jurisdiction where you don't have a lot of control. Anyway, we'd be keen to see the plant be successful, but I don't have enough background to know what the minister in P.E.I. knows - we would see a federal plan as a key component of any kind of successful beef strategy, I will tell you that.
MR. GLAVINE: Madam Chairman, that being said, you know I have struggled since becoming the Agriculture Critic with the whole business of provincial and federal inspections. I have yet to hear from anybody at the provincial or federal level really say to me substantively what the difference is other than a little bit of a difference in how the cement is formed on the floor in the abattoir. Why can't some of our smaller beef plants in fact have federal, you know become authorized, make the little changes to be federally inspected plants? If we take a look
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at the outbreak of listeriosis or go back further and do an historical profile, it's only in the big industrial plants that we're finding the major problems.
Two or three of our small abattoirs given federal inspection status - I know, for example, that a plant like Bowlby's - I've been at meetings where 14 Wing Greenwood would love to support local industry, but it's not federally inspected and now they're insisting on it. At one time they took a little in the back door, but now they can't do that and so I think it's an area that the province can, again, work to greater sustainability
This is the industry that I think has to receive the injection and the kind of thought that can move us forward to support our local industries in a much greater fashion than we do. I think we have to take a few risks, be a little bit bold here, if we're going to have the kind of beef industry that will be there in ten years time, as I know you and I would like it to be there.
Are you prepared, as the minister, to investigate that, to open it up? I have great faith in our provincial inspectors and the work that they do, and our history of small abattoirs is very good and I'm just wondering, what are your thoughts on that, Mr. Minister?
MR. MACDONELL: I'll get back to you on the particulars of the protocols, like what makes one different from another - it's a good question and I have kind of been there myself. I do want you to know that I raised this at Niagra-on-the-Lake - with, I won't say the top person at CFIA but what I believe to be the next person - around can you make us category B, like can you give us some designation that would allow us to market federally, under federal inspection, but give us some slightly different variation? They weren't entirely opposed to the idea, I have to say and, as I say, I haven't followed up to find out where that stands.
A couple of issues I see with where you're going - I mean it would have to be one of those things that we would pretty much have to allow every provincially inspected abattoir to be. If it turned out that we were thinking we'll only do two or three, well, who are those two or three going to be, and then they would have a competitive advantage over the others that we don't do it for. So I think anybody at least who's interested in doing it, we would probably have to look at that.
The other component of this is presently I think, and I might be wrong, but I think federal inspection right now is covered by the plant and I'm thinking of Tony's Meats in particular, and I'm not positive of the number but I'm thinking that's significant, that might be in the $100,000 range. So, right off the bat, if you're thinking we would fund the federal inspection the same way we fund provincial inspection, then we would have a competitive advantage for these new plants compared to an existing federal plant that was built to federal standards.
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So there would be some issues I would say, but I did ask about if that was possible; I saw some advantages for provincial abattoirs in that regard. It may open up a can of worms that might be difficult to close, but anyway we'll get back to you on what those protocols are around those federal plants. I'm not that familiar with them - I've heard of things like the ceiling could be 12-feet high in a federal plant and 10 feet in a provincial one, or the drain could be eight inches in a federal one and six inches in a provincial one, but as far as the quality of the product going out the door, it's perfectly fine. Anyway, we'll find that out for you and get back to you.
[8:00 p.m.]
MR. GLAVINE: I'm pleased that you've already raised the question around one potential level of support, because we're talking about a sector here that will fight for its survival over the next two to five years if we continue with what is currently happening, and so I think all areas will need to be investigated to support the beef industry, to develop a strategy, and to market our product, Madam Chairman.
That brings me again to some very different factors in the mix, but during the height of the mad cow disease, BSC, I think there was a great lesson to be learned from Alberta that decided to be proactive, to develop a campaign around Alberta beef, and in the midst of that there were successes as the borders closed, et cetera; in other words, to increase the consumption and keep the industry - and it is a massive industry out there - going as much as possible with that local support.
At what stage - or is it too early to talk about, as we develop a strategy in Nova Scotia about where marketing is or will be, because again I think as well the Progressive Conservative Party Agriculture Critic was talking about labelling and so on and when is marketing, labelling and those things going to be part of that strategy, because we're already seeing cases of where people are discovering that we can no longer buy very much Nova Scotia pork anywhere unless we go to the farm market, or product out of Tony's and so on, and they're starting to look around to see what is there. It's the same way with Nova Scotia beef - where can we get Nova Scotia beef?
So that whole marketing and labelling piece may in fact be needed very, very early. Before we have even the very consistent best quality of Nova Scotia beef, we may still need to be doing something around its promotion and its marketing and so forth. So I'm just wondering, is there anything there that's coming forward in that area?
MR. MACDONELL: Well, I think we're already trying, I mean with Select Nova Scotia and Taste of Nova Scotia and the Incredible Picnic, but I think our beef strategy - or I shouldn't say ours because it was the beef industry's strategy - one component of that I know was to set up some pilots around developing that quality beef, where we want to go, and part of that would have to include some dialogue, I think, with the retail sector. I know there's
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some interest there actually on the retail side and so I think it's a question of what kind of mechanisms can we negotiate with them to get more of that product on the shelf.
I don't necessarily believe that we have to be kind of the "price taker" on this, but it is a discussion that for me I have to have - I have to sit down with the retailers and find out what they want and convince them that we can produce it and try to nail down what we would need for a price for that and whether they're interested in paying it. If they're not, then I think all of this conversation will only benefit - it'll use up paper in Hansard.
I think that with the whole Buy Local program, Taste of Nova Scotia, Incredible Picnic, any emphasis we can put on those individuals that have gone to the next level around going from the farm gate to retail their own, all of these things are having some impact. The move we want to make has kind of helped the larger part of the industry to produce a product that retailers are interested in, so I think that's where we want to go. For me, I haven't closed the circle and part of what I need on that is some discussion with the retail sector to see exactly how much buy-in we have from them, or whether they're going to throw up their arms and say, look, we can get it from Alberta.
I had lunch at the Marriott today and on their menu was Angus beef and so I asked, where did your beef come from? They said, Alberta. They said that they had Alberta beef, Angus beef, in their chain of hotels. That is what they told me, and I was absolutely taken aback - that's a fair bit of marketing and organization, to make a commitment that you could produce quality animals or quality product for that clientele in all their venues. So somebody's doing their work there.
MR. GLAVINE: I'll depart from that for now but, perhaps over the next weeks, Question Period will provide an opportunity for another angle.
In speaking about the retail market, I just wanted to take my last 20 minutes and do a little bit of a range of questions here.
This year the back door to our major food retailers did open a little bit for direct purchasing. I'm just wondering to what extent, and do you have any kind of storyline about how that emerged this year? I know it's something that I had brought forward to the previous ministers in the Progressive Conservative Government and saw a real need for it and as a viable alternative to total central warehousing - I'm just wondering, what kind of progress was made, a few samplings that you could provide?
MR. MACDONELL: I don't think I can shed much light on that, to be honest; I don't have a lot of information about it. I think, probably like a lot of lay people who are not that close to it, the stores saw a real advantage to providing local product and found that their previous system was a little too cumbersome or not quite so flexible as they wanted. I think, in trying to reach out to the local sector and have that product available in their stores, they're
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willing to go to an old template of delivery. I think as much as that was possible to get that in their local area, they were willing to be flexible because they saw an advantage for that, but that would be only my assumption. I have no real insight as to what they were thinking about.
MR. GLAVINE: I'm wondering if, again, coming back the Buy Local movement, the department has taken a look at farm to school programs or even products for example, that are available throughout the entire school year. We know we can have some in season. This has gained enormous momentum in some other jurisdictions and I'm wondering if the department has had an official plan or any developments in this area. I know there was a time when we were promoting the apple industry in our schools, a product now that can be available 12 months of the year, our own product available 12 months. I'm just wondering if we've had any initiatives in this area and what are they, and again, what more could we be looking at doing?
MR. MACDONELL: My department has been working with the public sector buying groups and hope that we can ensure local products - and this is beef products in particular - for municipal academic school and health care institutions. The Nova Scotia Department of Economic and Rural Development is working with the Department of Health Promotion and Protection to help increase awareness for accessibility to provincially produced food items for school cafeterias and meal programs.
I have to say, we are looking at procurement policy and what can be done as far as getting local product into our schools. You'd think if there was one place that we want to ensure that, it would be there, and the milk program is still a program in schools to the tune of about $300,000 a year. That's a long-standing program that we certainly want to support.
MR. GLAVINE: Madam Chairman, one of the recent concerns that I heard around the wine industry, which I found a bit surprising, because we've made wonderful strides in Nova Scotia in that particular sector. I'm not sure if I'll be around for the day when the Annapolis Valley replaces Napa Valley, but it's talked about as the Napa Valley East or Napa Valley North perhaps. The industry is growing but I've heard recently from a couple of, I guess what I would call the early generation wine farmers. One gentleman in particular - I know they do provide some good information to the department, the Wuhrer family who have vineyards in North Kingston, and he senses a little bit of concern that perhaps the industry may be just jumping a little bit ahead of itself and move to a little bit of overproduction.
So he is voicing some concerns around that since it does take time to develop the markets. Once again, there's only so much that is going to be able to be marketed through the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation or through agri-tourism with the on-site wineries, and I'm just wondering, has the department a plan here to make sure what we're producing, the grapes, are all used? I know wine can keep for a good while, but if you get one of the early generation farmers voicing a concern, I'm just wondering again if that's not something that we should heed pretty strongly?
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[8:15 p.m.]
MR. MACDONELL: Well, look, that's kind of an interesting question, and only because I had never heard anybody go there. My impressions - and I always saw the wine industry as kind of that unique industry in the sense that when we talk about buying local, there was a policy component at least - I don't know whether it still exists, I can ask my staff, but over a period of time you had to increase the amount of local grape in your wine. It seemed to me it was strange that we could write that into wine production but we couldn't seem to write it into anything else local, but that was all to grow the industry. I had always heard the opposite, that people in the wine industry were encouraging other farmers to grow grapes. I think I maybe had mentioned that earlier, which was kind of unique because it was having some success and they wanted other people to kind of join in on that rather than say, stay away from it.
So it would definitely be a concern, but the department is looking at legislation around quality standards, and maybe that will help. If we kind of direct the standards around quality, that would certainly ensure that kind of very high-end product in the marketplace, and that's what we all want to see. So that may help to the point that the gentleman raised with you, or I hope it will. I'm sure this isn't being done in isolation. It will be done in conversation with the industry. Then I think of the idea that, you know, it takes three years or whatever for vines to get into even commercial production and whether they won't necessarily hit their stride at three years. So if you think about the number of acres that might be planted and then think down the road of what that volume might be, you know, maybe that's an issue for them but, no, I think we're still quite optimistic about the industry. It has done great things and so I think whatever issues the industry kind of sees coming over the horizon, we want to be there for them to help and to ensure that it stays strong.
MR. GLAVINE: Thank you, Madam Chairman. No, I was a bit taken aback when I had that kind of critical eye, you know, cast on the industry. He has been a real weather vane for the industry around grape varieties and the development of the industry. I know there's lots of unique capacity in agri-tourism to have small unique wineries because, as we all know, soils and micro climates and so on will determine the very nature of a wine, but I thought I would bring it to the minister's attention that when they have annual meetings and so on, it may be something to be a bit of a test question to see where the industry is going in that regard. So I just thought I would mention it.
An area that I would say, as long as you are a minister you're going to hear questions come your way on this particular topic, maybe not as pressing since the treatment plant isn't working in Halifax, but we will increase our production of biosolids. I know that as we shipped it to the Valley, again questions started to come my way because there was some used on the fields in very close proximity to where I live. I had the environmental questions from truck drivers who were trucking the product to people who knew it was being used on fields because fertilizer prices went so high, and the question in particular, obviously, was around
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the whole question of safety, where it's food that we directly consume and, secondly, around whether or not farmers should have to identify if they're using biosolids. So I'm just wondering where the discussion is going in the Department of Agriculture. I know it's two-pronged here with the Department of Environment as well being part of the whole equation.
MR. MACDONELL: Yes, I think it's a good question. I have to say I'm one of those people who support the use of it. I've heard a lot of comments around the use of it on food. I know that, because it's kind of distributed out of a single outlet, they know exactly where it's going and what it's used for. So I know - I can't speak to last summer, but I would be surprised if it's used on food at all, but it may be this summer. It's regulated by the Department of Environment and from what my perception is around the environmental regulations, I haven't seen anything that would indicate to me that there's a reason to have significant concerns around the use of biosolids.
Actually Dr. Gordon Price at the Agricultural College is doing some research on applications that were done, I think last Fall, or whatever, and is collecting data on water and soil to determine what the possibilities are to address. I think the issues raised quite often are either around heavy metals or pharmaceuticals. So, anyway, we're hoping very soon to have some really clear, accurate data on what are the possible contaminations for soil and water. I think that there is - at least the stuff that we're dealing with, which is the enviro-product, because you're not allowed to spread raw sewage on land in Nova Scotia. This product is fairly significantly tested for a wide variety of possible contaminants and passes those tests the Department of Environment has requested of it. Until a flag goes up, I'm relying on them, but I'm not particularly uncomfortable with the use of it.
MR. GLAVINE: I'll just go out here on a test run at the end of my two hours. As you drive home at night, I'm wondering if you've ever had that bold thought or idea about moving what there is of the Department of Agriculture in Halifax. I know that a good part is Kentville and especially Truro, but what a signal to Nova Scotia to move the Department of Agriculture to where it's really happening. Has it ever crossed your mind?
MR. MACDONELL: I'm not sure where I'd move it because so much of it is everywhere. I could give you a list of the communities, so I'd have to split it up and have it hither and yon. A big part of this department is out in rural Nova Scotia, so other than, having a few more people on the ground on the extension side and even - look, make no mistake, the people who I see the most in my office on Brunswick Street, they don't stay there. They're out on people's farms quite often and so I have no intention of making any move.
Actually, probably a smarter move would be - I think it would be great if I was in a building that the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure was down the hall from me and I could go and discuss particular issues with him, or the Minister of Community Services or the Minister of Health. We're all in individual buildings around the city and so I wouldn't want to see the people that I rely on day-to-day around me in that bureaucracy to be spread
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out. I don't necessarily see any big gain for the department or for the people of the province, but people should not assume that the Department of Agriculture is in Halifax. The building is there but the people are out seeing the agricultural industry.
MR. GLAVINE: Thank you, I just wanted your perspective as a new minister, how you looked at your department. I appreciate that and I want to thank you for your time over my two hours of questioning.
MR. MACDONELL: You're welcome.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, members. We'll move this floor now to the Progressive Conservative Party member for Hants West for approximately 45 minutes.
MR. CHUCK PORTER: Thank you, Madam Chairman and thank you again, minister for allowing us to continue on for awhile this evening, I have a few more questions. I'll start with a simple one. What commitments did you fall into after June and being named Minister of Agriculture? What were out there for commitments that were made by the previous government for you to start to deal with or have to deal with?
MR. MACDONELL: Well, the $2 million one from Minister Parent wasn't one of them, so let me set the record straight on that. I did a lot of tracing of that commitment to find out that it didn't exist. I'm not sure if it was a campaign promise by a minister who was a candidate, but that does not a government commitment make. I was getting called by the president of the Nova Scotia Cattle Producers before I even became minister after that election and I had to tell him, I'm not the minister yet and I don't know if I'm going to be the minister. When I did become minister I met with him within days and said, look, there's no evidence that was a commitment by the government but let's talk about what kind of a commitment I can make to you. Anyway, I think I have at least half the dollars in this year's budget and so I just have to finalize what that's going to look like.
I guess the member for Hants West wasn't at the Cattle Market or Atlantic Stockyards when there were three of us there - not the former minister but a former minister, the member who represented Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley was there on behalf of the minister - and one of the things that I said there was that we were going to need some kind of short-term plan to get to a long-term plan and I took that to be a commitment. Trying to come up with something that would work and avoid the pitfalls of previous funding arrangements that the department had done was where I was hoping to go for cattle producers. Actually I was hoping that I could have made a statement about that before we ever got to the House. This process has taken longer than I had envisaged but I'm certainly hoping that soon we'll have something in place that they'll deem to be helpful to them.
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[8:30 p.m.]
MR. PORTER: I wasn't actually referring to just that. I'm sure that the previous government had made numerous commitments in a variety of departments. I'm wondering, was that the only thing that was left on the books that we had committed to previously. What else is out there that you're involved in right now?
MR. MACDONELL: The one that I'm most familiar with, which is part of the reason when I was asked that question in Port Williams that I said, yes, we'll stand behind previous government commitments, because the government had made a commitment of $5.6 million in my own constituency to the Lantz Sportsplex, so it would be kind of crazy during an election campaign to say, no, I'm not going to stand behind government commitments. That was money that actually went through a process, it was from Health Promotion and Protection. The minister came out and made an announcement, it was ear-tagged, it had been through Cabinet, it was actually a commitment by the government. That was the one that has been uppermost in my mind.
As far as others - and if you're thinking of it regarding agriculture - I know the previous government had been working toward a 10-year strategy for agriculture, which I'm committed to doing something there, as well, but I'm not sure if there's something more specific you're thinking about.
MR. PORTER: No, there was nothing more specific other than that. I was just curious if there were other things that were yet to come that we may have announced and I wasn't sure what those were, but that's fine.
Just back to the cattle producers, you mentioned the word, soon. I'm curious, you've had some discussion, that's great, I'm sure they appreciate that, and I've talked to a few of those folks and they appear to be waiting, but the door is open, according to them, there has been some discussion. From the conversations I've had though, there's no real commitment as of yet. Can you speak to time frame for commitment? You talked a few minutes ago about having part of a commitment in this year's budget and the year following. What is that and what does that mean?
MR. MACDONELL: There is a million dollars in the budget. That wasn't part of the May 4th budget. I'm quite sure that this is something that I can do, because whatever I do has to go before Cabinet, or whatever I propose, it may not be what I do, it depends on what my colleagues think. Yes, I'd like to have that all done before we ever leave here so that's what I'm hoping.
MR. PORTER: Just on that, when there's a commitment made, whatever the figure is, how do you see that investment going, minister? How do you see it - you know, what is the real assistance part to the cattle industry?
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MR. MACDONELL: Well, I'll tell you what I told the member, the only reasonable hope I think I have - there were a number of problems with previous money spent to the cattle industry. The $2 million that one of the former ministers spent on a per-head basis didn't work really that well. I mean, some producers got very little, some got quite a bit, and then I think they tried to cap it to keep them from getting too much of it, and then they gave them a lump sum after. I think before the election there was money went out to cattle producers or to a small number.
So then there were issues around money that went out as loans and then got written off and, you know, I heard it from cattle producers in my area who said, look, if I had known it was going to be written off, I would have taken it. So these are all the pitfalls that whatever plan we come up with has to try to avoid, but right now the thing uppermost in my mind, that has been kind of suggested by two or three producers, would be an interest buy-down and allow them access to money that way. We haven't got that totally nailed down and I'm not sure if that's positively where we're going, but right now it's uppermost on the list, especially if it's one that producers have suggested. Anyway, we'll see in our final analysis, whether that will work or not.
MR. PORTER: A couple of things on that, the money, when and if that flows, we see that as a short-term investment for a long-term sustainability. Does this flow through the Cattle Producers Association, does it go to individual farmers, how does that flow?
MR. MACDONELL: No, I have no intention of letting it flow through the Cattle Producers Association. It would be - I'm not sure what the entire mechanism would be. It wouldn't be a loan through the Farm Loan Board if I could have my way. My worry is that if we do it that way, producers will think eventually it will be written off, and I don't want that to be a consideration, whether some would take it and some wouldn't based on that and then we would be back into kind of the same turmoil that left the industry this Spring. So anyway, I'm thinking that it would be something we would probably encourage them to do through another lender and we would do the buy-down on the interest, but I don't have all the parts of that worked out yet, so whether it goes that way - but if it would avoid the pitfalls of previous lending, that's what I'm interested in doing, plus giving them the help that they need and trying to make the best use of a limited number of dollars.
MR. PORTER: So just to be clear, this is a loan and not free money that we're talking about here?
MR. MACDONELL: Right.
MR. PORTER: This investment is strictly a loan, and $2 million in the grand scheme of things in the $8 billion budget for the province doesn't seem like a lot, but it's quite an amount to the general annual taxpayer - the regular taxpayer, rather. What's the time frame, what would you see getting paid back, for all intents and purposes?
[Page 49]
MR. MACDONELL: Well, for us, we don't have it entirely worked out, whether it would be for two years or three years or whatever, but at some point after that, whoever borrows the money is going to be paying interest. So I think for us, we're hoping that if the other issues around a beef strategy fall into place, we could have some notion of a price and growth for the industry. I mean, this is on the premise that we actually are able to kick off a strategy and that beef producers will make some money on this strategy, that paying this back is not going to be the issue. If that doesn't happen, then that will be an issue.
MR. PORTER: Yes, I guess the reason I'm asking those questions is it's a complicated deal. It seems to me, from the answers that you're giving, it's not a short-term solution over the next couple of weeks, we're talking about quite a bit yet to be worked out by the sounds of it, from every aspect, to the lending part, to the getting back part, to interest, to whatever, and how it's going to be done and, will there be an intermediary there, to loan whatever that might be, to manage that, a bank, et cetera. So it sounds like there's a bit of work to be done there and that's going to take some time.
MR. MACDONELL: I think it will take some time. I have good people around me to do that.
MR. PORTER: Thanks for your time, I appreciate that. I know we've had some discussion on it and the points of clarity are good and I agree staff will certainly be more than able to help. I know it takes a lot. You spoke of your Cabinet colleagues and there's a lot more to it than the average person perhaps thinks. It's not just as simple as writing the cheque and saying here you go. So I think that the farm industry appreciates and understands that as well. I think they're just hopeful there's something there at the end of the day to help them through what is a very difficult time right now. Until more of your 10-year strategy comes out with some detail in it, it may serve the long term.
MR. MACDONELL: Well, if between now and then, somebody suggests something better, then that's where we'll go.
MR. PORTER: Thank you and that's great. It's nice to have the open door thing and thinking outside the box is very important right now in this day and age as we've talked about earlier, how there are numerous changes and still occurring changes in this industry, and God only knows what it will bring in another 10 years, where we'll be with regard to farming and new technologies, new ways, and raising new things.
In your 10-year strategy you talked a little bit about - do you see any other new programs coming immediately? The numbers are there but there's not a lot of detail in the numbers. Any new programs coming out for other parts, we talked about the cattle producers, the hog industry, well, that's almost obsolete right now. Is there any other assistance by way of the hog industry or - we had a bit of a plan, as you're aware, of course, in the last few years of the diversion into other things and, we talked earlier about being diverse, a little bit of hog,
[Page 50]
a little bit of this, a little bit of that, but is there any other discussion going on right now with the hog industry or any others, where you'll be making investments and I'll talk more about that and get into the numbers in a few minutes.
MR. MACDONELL: I've had some discussion with the hog industry, I met with directors of Pork Nova Scotia. I think the issues for them are kind of a number. Not everybody is dealing with the same thing because we have a very limited number of people who actually are finishing hogs, a market hog for either Larsen's or Tony's Meats. Then we have the isowean, the people who are marketing a younger hog that's being raised and finished somewhere else. Then we have the people who actually just exited the industry but still have a fair bit of debt that they're carrying and wondering about.
So I have to say, that in light of all the other sectors of the agricultural industry, I have thought about and discussed what is possible. I really wouldn't like to see the few that are actually finishing market hogs to lose even that small number, but I can't come up with something for them that I wouldn't come up with for somebody else. So I think whatever we look at in that regard, it would have to be in some discussion with them. It would have to be whatever similar we might do for the beef industry. We are talking about a very small number of producers on the market side. They haven't really thrown out any particular mechanism that they would necessarily see as overly helpful, but it is a concern. Really, I think that the question is, nationally, with such a large sector of the industry going down, the federal program presently that Minister Ritz announced doesn't have as big an impact here as it might in other jurisdictions. We were kind of hoping that we might have been able to get that backdated a bit, a couple of years, that it would maybe help out some of our producers.
I think for some producers who may have shut down after January 1st or whatever, there was something in that federal program that might help them, but for our producers who exited the industry a year and a half or two years ago, there really isn't much there in that federal program. We were hoping we might get some support from them to try to tweak it that it would work more for eastern Canada operations, or at least for Nova Scotians, because Quebec is kind of in the same situation as the rest of the country. I don't have an answer on the hog industry and probably need further discussion with them to see if it's possible to have something that would work for them.
[8:45 p.m.]
MR. PORTER: Just sort of on that, I know that there have been problems for years and it continually has been dropping, but we're not the only country around the world that farms. I know you're a new minister. Folks in your department, though, have been around for a while. Is there any research being done in Europe or in other places around the world as to how there is success in some of these areas that we're struggling with in this province?
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MR. MACDONELL: Well, I think it's probably going to have to start with what exactly do we want for an industry to begin with. If we're going to produce 200,000 hogs again, then that's going to be a slightly different ramp-up. I mean, we do have those people who've tried. Well, we thought isowean was actually going to be one of those things that helped producers get through this and that hasn't turned out to be as good as we hoped.
I think there are a number of producers who are trying a variety of things and doing retailing from the farm is one of them. I would like to have seen us, I think, if we were going to spend money trying to keep the industry two years ago, then we probably should have been doing something like trying high-moisture grain to find out what other feed stuffs we could grow that could reduce our dependence on western grain. Since none of that was done, I think there might be an opportunity to look at what they do in other jurisdictions as far as feeding hogs, if there's anything significant that could help. Then the question could be, whatever we find, are we going to bring that back? There would have to be real assurance that the marketplace is going to pay them and that their cash flow is going to work.
I don't really know what the opportunities are. I think that it's going to take - number one, if there's a commitment to actually having a hog industry, then there's going to have to be some look at what we have to do to make us unique and not dependent on that same kind of western grain model. It's great while conditions are fine but you get the right alignment of negative impacts and you can't sustain it.
I don't have an answer for you. I'm not sure if they do, but the whole process around promoting buying local and to think that we're not going to be eating local hogs seems to go counter to where we think we should be.
MR. PORTER: Just on that - you talked about maybe some things that should have been done or could have been done a couple of years ago - do you think it's too late for part of the industry? Are you suggesting that, or am I just reading that the wrong way?
MR. MACDONELL: No, I don't know that. I haven't had that discussion with them, because someone had suggested to me around high-moisture corn or high-moisture grain, and then I was wondering, why hasn't somebody done that? Is that something that we either have to do a pilot or a little bit of research on to see what the capabilities are with that? So I think that's kind of the bigger question - what do we think the industry can look like and, then, are we going to be innovative and spend a little money doing research to find out, and whether anybody who's left in the industry can hang on until you find out, and whether they're interested in you doing it anyway? Right now their issues are so immediate around cash flow.
The other thing around research and so on is kind of interesting, for in two or three years to say, well look, we recognize now you can grow hogs with this or that and we can grow that cheaper, all that would be fine but for the people who are in it, they need something to kind of get them there - and we don't even know if there's a "there" to get to. So, no, I
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think if we were producing 65 per cent of the pork that we consume, you would think realistically you should have been able to grow it by 35 per cent, and so the question is now, what level of growth can it have and what can we put in place to get us there? But right now, trying to hang on to those few producers, I think, is our biggest concern.
MR. PORTER: You mentioned the research component. Would you see the Argicultural College, NSAC, doing that research or would you see somebody else, another group, being put together to pilot that - or what would you see?
MR. MACDONELL: Well, I'm not opposed to that idea - I think that's a great idea. There is the swine research facility in Prince Edward Island and so how you influence that to get a project to be worked on there, I don't have any background on that, but, yes, I think we've got expertise here that we could use, but whether that's the best fit - I would like to get a fit that would work.
MR. PORTER: I should ask this first - how many representatives do you have around the province and are they divided up in areas, agricultural representatives, because I understand - the reason I'm asking the question, Mr. Minister, there's one who serves Cape Breton, is that correct?
MR. MACDONELL: I should be able to get you an answer for that - we're looking. We have five regional offices and we have 12 people in those regional offices and we have a person servicing Cape Breton, but I don't have it nailed down as to whether that's out of an office in Cape Breton or in what capacity that person is doing that.
MR. PORTER: Madam Chairman, the follow-up to that actually I didn't ask - I should have all in one perhaps, Mr. Minister - was I believe there's one in Cape Breton, a rather big area. Is there any plan to add to that, either part time or full time, some help there to get around? That question is coming off Cape Breton Island.
MR. MACDONELL: I was talking when I should have been listening - could you just repeat your question again, please?
MR. PORTER: I believe there is one on Cape Breton Island - and the question coming from some folks in Cape Breton Island - is there any plan to hire any more part time or even full time to help assist? The Island is fairly big, and it does still have a reasonable amount of agriculture there and a variety of different parts of the industry.
MR. MACDONELL: There is an office in Sydney and we just, I think, put out the request to hire three more people. I'd have to get back to you to tell you what actually - if they're going to be agricultural coordinators, kind of the same as what I've indicated here, whether that be three more people doing that and whether one of those will be another person in Cape Breton. Anyway, I can find that information out for you and let you know.
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MR. PORTER: Just a couple of quick snappers here. On Page 9 of the Nova Scotia Government Business Plan - I've gone through it and I note that if you're looking for the actual business plan for 2009-10 you have to go on-line to find it. If someone wanted that, would the department be printing that off and sending it out to farmers and such who might ask for that? (Interruption) There were a couple of questions on that - I assumed so, but I wanted to ask the question to clarify.
Just a couple more things, and just for clarity mostly - and I'm trying to read this, I have progressive lenses so it changes as I move, so I apologize for the extra time to see the numbers in the small print.
On the Tangible Capital Asset Spending page, again for 2009-10, it's a pretty broad page there but it mentions Agriculture. The estimate and the actuals are quite different and when I look across I see the estimate for 2008-09 and then the actual, again, which is lower. Then I see the estimate for 2009-10 and it's a considerable jump there. I'm just curious about the numbers. I'm assuming that's money coming into the program again in 2009-10, an increase in the dollars?
MR. MACDONELL: Just to be sure, where are you? Tangible Capital Asset . . .
MR. PORTER: It is the Nova Scotia Budget Bulletin, Nova Scotia's Capital Budget, Capital Spending, and it's the Tangible Capital Asset Spending spread page there, and it talks about Capital Grants on the bottom of the page - is this all part of that grant? I'm assuming this together totals what's being spoken of down below.
MR. MACDONELL: I don't think we have the same sheet actually.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Can we share it with him?
MR. PORTER: Sure.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: I'll just take this moment, committee members, to inform you there's 15 minutes left.
MR. MACDONELL: Yes, the number from estimates to actual 2008-09, there's a little bit of a change there but that's mostly around vehicles, but you see on 2009-10 it goes up to 880, which is basically another $500,000. So that number for vehicles is still there, but there's a research project - $500,000 for a research project - and that's why that number has kind of ballooned up to that level, and that's being done at the Agricultural College.
MR. PORTER: It's hard when you're just looking at a number, it doesn't go into any detail so it's difficult to figure that out, and I'm just going to go through some of the budget pages, Mr. Minister, with some of those questions similar to that, again, just so you know
[Page 54]
where I am. On the Program Expenses Summary and Resolutions - I'm looking for a page number because I copied it and perhaps I don't have one, but it shows again the Estimates and Actuals for 2007-08, 2008-09 and projected Estimate for 2009-10.
MR. MACDONELL: You're in what booklet?
MR. PORTER: Actually I photocopied it and, again I'm holding it back so I can see it - it's just the Program Expenses Summary and Resolutions and it's with regard to staffing, I've laid it down here, Senior Management under Program Expenses on the page there. Are you with me? I think it's Page 3. 2 in the Nova Scotia Estimates. I can go there if you need me to.
[9:00 p.m.]
Anyway, my question is around staffing. I see staffing was actually 467, and next, in 2009-10 it's going up to 477. Is that the number of staff it's increasing and where are the salary benefits coming from, because if you look at the actual numbers in the budget the budget looks like it's going down - yes, I'll let you speak to that.
MR. MACDONELL: I just want to be sure I'm looking at the right number - but are you saying the number has gone down, is that what you're thinking?
MR. PORTER: I'm just looking at the number and I'm trying to reference it in the actual book, Mr. Minister, to make sure I'm on the right page as well. It does appear the number has gone down. Your budgeted number for 2008-09 was $59,000 and it goes up to $65,000 as an actual - what does it go to in this year's budget?
MR. MACDONELL: Okay, we're looking at the wrong line then, or wrong numbers. Yes, we're looking at a total, the full-time equivalents, and our number has gone up, so we're just trying to find where you are.
MR. PORTER: It's Page 3.2.
MR. MACDONELL: So you said $550,000-something or did you say $50,000-something to $60,000-something or . . .
MR. PORTER: It was $60,000 in 2008-09, estimate was $59,000 and then it went to $65,000, but in 2009-10 though it drops to $61,000 if you look across the page. In looking at that - and I'm just looking for the clarification - it appears as though the actual budget is going down in this area but the jobs are going up, and when you look at all the things that are there, one doesn't add up.
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MR. MACDONELL: It has nothing to do with FTs, full-time equivalents or hiring. If you look at the estimated value, $59,563, and compare it to the estimated value in 2009-10, it went up in the next estimate, so it's going up. If you're comparing the $65,984 in the actual, that's because of additional dollars for loan write-offs in the Farm Loan Board. That's why that number went up in the actual number, but your estimate from year to year has gone up as well.
MR. PORTER: Thank you for the clarification. I was looking at 65 going to 61, but again, it doesn't detail out a whole lot, so I'm just asking some of the numbers when I'm looking at them for clarity on that. Thank you for that. I'm just looking here, there was something under the Agricultural Services, and there's a $24,577 there, what all falls under - and you don't need to go into every detail, but what are some of the bigger pieces of that Agricultural Services?
MR. MACDONELL: On Page 3.3 in the supplement under Agricultural Services, Administration, Resource Stewardship, Programs and Risk Management, and Legislated Organizations, those are the four. If you look at the estimate under Programs and Risk Management for 2009-10, that's the biggest number, $14 million. That's where you get those cost-shared federal-provincial programs. There's the biggest expense out of Agricultural Services: Farm Investment Fund.
MR. PORTER: Thank you, so that's our provincial commitment then to match the funding that's coming in. Is that 50-50 when it comes out of there?
MR. MACDONELL: No, 60-40.
MR. PORTER: Okay, that pretty much wraps up. I just had those couple of points of clarity on the numbers as I was going through, not quite understanding, missing some of the detail. I suppose it's more paper, and I'm not one to create more paper and it's probably just as easy to ask the questions. I think that almost wraps up; I think our time is close as well. I want to take a minute just to thank you and your staff for providing us this evening with a few hours of your time and to go through it. It's interesting to be on this side and get to ask the questions for a change, as opposed to be on the other end and chairing or listening all the time and so on. Thank you very much, minister, for your time and for your staff this evening.
MR. MACDONELL: My pleasure. Thank you, actually.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: As well, thank you on behalf of the Chairs today and thank you, members, for taking the time to sit in with us today. We will consider the time to have expired and we will resume again tomorrow. I hope you all have a lovely evening, what's left of it. Do we have a motion? That's an assumption - I assume that there's no continuation of it tomorrow.
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Shall Resolution E1 stand?
Resolution E1 stands.
Resolution E43 - Resolved, that the business plan of Nova Scotia Harness Racing Incorporated be approved.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E43 carry?
Resolution E43 is carried.
We'll resume again tomorrow. Thank you all.
[The subcommittee adjourned at 9:08 p.m.]
