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MR. CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, everybody. I would like the committee to commence. The minister opened, of course, on Friday with comments relative to his budget and we'll turn the floor over to the honourable minister, the floor is yours.
The honourable Minister of African Nova Scotian Affairs.
HON. BARRY BARNET: I only have a couple of pages left in my opening remarks and I'll try to go through those quickly. Let me see if I can pick up where we left off.
Last going we were talking about Dr. Elliott's visit to Nova Scotia. During the 2007-08 business year, African Nova Scotian Affairs completed more than 20 community information sessions. In some sessions staff partnered with government and institutional partners to deliver the presentations. For example, we joined forces with the National Crime Prevention Centre in the creating safer communities initiative and with the Department of Seniors on a presentation entitled Giving Nova Scotia Seniors a Voice.
Mr. Chairman, in our effort to keep government and community informed, we continue to produce a regular newsletter with information about the office, its programs, our achievements, and future goals. Our Spring issue is now being distributed and available on our Web site, and in referring to our Web site, it continues to be a key source of information for and about African Nova Scotian communities. It is updated with events, notices, photos, program information, and our business plan and accountability reports.
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Mr. Chairman, we look forward to celebrating the 25th Anniversary of the Africville Homecoming weekend this July - July 18 to July 27, 2008. As you know, the province is strongly committed to playing a supportive role in completing the Africville project which is to see a memorial facility on the grounds of the former Africville community, now Seaview Park. Members of the Africville Genealogical Society have engaged all levels of government to move forward with an implementation plan to make that goal a reality. We will also support the activities of the Black Loyalist Heritage Society in Shelburne County as it celebrates the 235th Anniversary of Black Loyalists arriving here in Nova Scotia. For close to two decades the Black Loyalist Heritage Society has preserved the history of these early settlers and will host several events in August to commemorate their arrival and contribution to this province.
Mr. Chairman, we take pride in our achievements and our vision to build on government and community successes, to promote and facilitate positive change on behalf of Nova Scotians of African descent. Thank you for allowing me this opportunity to share another one of my responsibilities with you, and I guess I'll do that later. Now I'm more than pleased to take questions from members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Minister. We will begin with the Official Opposition.
The honourable member for Waverley-Fall River-Beaver Bank.
MR. PERCY PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I wish to advise the Chair that for the next hour this will be a shared hour. I guess my first question - no, before I even ask my question, I want to say this. I think it's important - at least it's important to me - to say that I'm well aware of the African Nova Scotian Affairs Department and I must say that the division may recall that when I was contemplating running for election, I, too, made use of the services that the African Nova Scotian Affairs Department provided. I want to say for the record that I much appreciated the conversations I had with the department. I've known the executive director, known him and known of him, for a large number of years now and I just want to provide that information for the record.
Mr. Minister, you mentioned during your preamble about the information sessions that you did around the Province of Nova Scotia. I'm just curious as to what your interpretation is around the success of those information sessions and is that strategy now in your mind a complete strategy?
MR. BARNET: Well, I'll say that when we first formed the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs, it consisted of me and my executive assistant. One of the things that I wanted to do as the minister at the time was to go out to the community and discuss the concerns and the issues that they had, and allow that to help me do at least the initial work to form our office. We literally criss-crossed this province. We had a variety of meetings with a variety of different interest groups and organizations and individuals. We tried to mix it up so that
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we got people with a variety of interests. We met with people who had an interest specifically in health, in community development, in recreation, young people, old people. Sometimes we met with just individuals and sometimes we met with larger groups and that, in my mind, formed the basis of how we move as an office.
Once that initial round of discussions with community members, individuals and organizations concluded, we were almost in the position where we were hiring our executive director and we were working towards developing the office from a staffing point of view. When we chose Wayn Hamilton as our executive director, and at the time Vangie Williams came to work with us as well, we had begun that process again. It enabled us to confirm what we had heard, to document it in the best form of written documentation that we could, and I believe it has been a solid basis on which we've built the foundation for this office.
In some cases when we've had these community meetings, we've been out in the community on topics. We've had great success, lots of people show up, and others, limited success, but in every case there has always been somebody there who has always had a concern, an issue, or a view, who has brought it to our attention. So I don't feel like any of these meetings that we've had - and literally there have been hundreds of them - have been a waste. Every single one of them has been valuable, all of them have helped us do our work, and all of them have led to some of the successes that we've had as an office.
MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I want to talk a little bit about the caseload. I would expect that within the department there are probably numerous individuals seeking advice, seeking counselling - individuals, as well as community groups and organizations that are looking for assistance and, again, counselling. So I guess my next question is, with respect to the individuals, let's say, for example, who come to the department with an issue around human rights and the direction would be maybe from the department to go to the - whether it be the federal or the provincial Human Rights Commission. I'm curious as to what follow-up procedures are in place once that individual comes with an issue or a concern, and is there follow-up and what does it look like?
MR. BARNET: Well, we do, we follow up where follow-up is warranted. In some cases, often what we find is that we are redirecting a large number of our contacts to other levels of government or other departments within government. When it's other levels of government, generally - I should say, when it's other departments of government, we try to follow up to the greatest extent that we can.
We do have a caseload number - do we have that? (Interruption) I guess the number I'm getting is there are 26 confidential, individual files where people have brought matters to our department directly as it relates to the question you asked. With respect to following up, yes, we do. One of the things this budget has enabled us to do is to better resource our Halifax office. We found some pressure around our communication and around our research
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side of the work we do, and with the passage of this budget there will be additional resources and full-time equivalencies to enable us to better serve our constituents and communities.
[4:15 p.m.]
MR. PARIS: With - do you want me to be less formal, Mr. Chairman, and just go ahead after I hear the response?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, honourable members, that's pretty much the tradition here. In the interests of time, as well, it works well. If everybody's fine with that, we'll . . .
MR. BARNET: Mr. Chairman, can I ask what time we started?
MR. CHAIRMAN: We started today at 4:05 p.m. and you spoke for five minutes, according to my timepiece here. We'll try to stick to that. Thank you, and we'll go with you, Mr. Paris.
MR. PARIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With respect - and I know you mentioned about opening the Cape Breton office, and I guess my question is, in your opinion, with the diversity of living arrangements in Nova Scotia that affect those individuals of African descent, is the department now adequately servicing, province-wide, from Cape Breton right on through to Yarmouth?
MR. BARNET: No. I'll say this, that our long-term vision is to have at least one, possibly two, additional satellite offices. We did want to ensure that we had a reach across the province. We have had a long-term plan that would see in some future years, as resources become available, we would see additional satellite offices so there isn't that great distance.
One of the things that we did hear as we went around in our consultations - and I heard clearly - is that it can't all be about Halifax. That's why I was so pleased that we were able to open our initial satellite office in Sydney. As I said, we do have a long-term plan and we're trying to base it on caseload and where the need exists.
One thing we have been able to do is, even though we only have two offices - our main office in Halifax and our satellite office in Cape Breton - we've been able to very successfully get out and around to the communities to ensure they had full access to the office. We've had community meetings held in nearly - well, I would say every region of this province. We also have direct access through a toll-free telephone line, and our Web site that we update and use has been very successful and it gets a tremendous amount of attention from the public. I believe we've been successful to date.
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I do believe, though, as the office continues to evolve, there may be an opportunity and a desire to look at an additional resource, either a satellite office or a person assigned to specific geographical areas.
MR. PARIS: What I'm hearing is that the minister is not adequately satisfied yet with the numbers of satellite offices they have out there now. You talked about a long-term vision and I wonder if you could provide for my benefit some sort of timeline. Usually with a long-term vision is - does that also include a short-term vision and does it have timelines as well?
MR. BARNET: Well, I don't think we specifically sat down and said that in year two we would have this or in year three we would have that. I will continue to work through my government colleagues to ask for additional resources as the workload increases. In the interim though, what we're committed to do is provide the opportunity for our staff to move around the province - and they have - to meet with individuals and community groups on specific matters as they arise, and it's been very successful to date.
My need, or at least my desire to have additional satellite offices is less as an opportunity to serve geographical areas, because I think we can do that - it's more out of an opportunity to do it in a way that provides for the most economical way to serve those areas. In other words, often what we find is that we have staff people who are travelling back and forth to Truro or to the Valley, and if we had a small satellite office in one of those areas it might be easier and more economical to serve those locations once we have the resources to do that. It's just that as it stands right now we're, I think, four years as a department, as an office - in our first two years we were really getting established, our third year we were able to expand to have a satellite office and, as we progress with our files, we'll see how it goes.
MR. PARIS: Okay. Did I hear you correctly, Mr. Minister, when you said that you do have a business plan?
MR. BARNET: Yes, we do, and it's available on the Internet. We have one for every year, I believe.
MR. PARIS: So that business plan that you have, is that just for the current fiscal year or is that for a period over the next two or three years? Is it a business plan that just goes from year to year?
MR. BARNET: We do an annual business plan.
MR. PARIS: Okay, so it's a yearly thing. So it's not projected any further than 12 months?
MR. BARNET: No.
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MR. PARIS: I have to say I've been up - I was invited to the UNIA Hall in good old Cape Breton, which I did manage to go to a very special event as a guest there, along with the Lieutenant Governor of Nova Scotia. I will say that when African Nova Scotian Affairs opened up their office in Cape Breton, I got an invite to that as well, which was very pleasing to receive.
However, I must say, as a person of African descent and also as a seventh generation Nova Scotian, and also as an MLA, what I find I guess somewhat, and I'll use the word "surprising" to me is I think that I've been politically active in the total political community regarding all matters, even matters related to African Nova Scotians, for as long as I can remember. I've received acknowledgment from Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission for my involvement in human rights; I was featured this past year on a national poster for African Heritage Month in Canada and, as a result of that, the poster was displayed in probably most, or in the majority of schools in all of Canada - and I say that not as a reason to boast, but it's leading up to my next question.
I would also say that back in, I think it was 1994, and if it wasn't 1994 it was certainly in proximity, I was on a provincial task force appointed by the then provincial government to go around the province in the African Nova Scotian communities and come up with recommendations on what could be done or what should be done with respect to the old Black United Front, or the defunct Black United Front.
So I'd like to think that there are many individuals in the Province of Nova Scotia who have had a hand, whether it be small, big, or whatever, in what we now have as the African Nova Scotian Affairs Department. I think that one of those little hands was mine, along with countless other individuals.
I also want to say that since I've been in the House, I've had three critic areas, those being Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, Education Critic, and also the consistent one that I've had has been African Nova Scotian Affairs. During that time, I've received invites to all sorts of things - and I certainly don't speak for my critic opposite and maybe he or she may speak to that later on when it's their turn to speak, but during my critic areas with all the other critic areas that I've been involved in and am still involved in, I receive invitations to significant events that are affecting that portfolio. Outside of the invite to the opening ceremonies for the Cape Breton office, I can't think of anything that I've received as far as an invite from African Nova Scotian Affairs, and I'm just wondering if you have any comment with respect to that.
MR. BARNET: Well I'd say this, that often the events that both you and I get invitations to aren't events of ours, they're events that we're asked to participate in. Sometimes we provide a small financial contribution, sometimes we help with organizations. We're not the ones who develop the invitation lists. The only events that we actually develop
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an invitation list for are our own events, and the only event that that would include would have been the opening of the office and, as well, the African Heritage Month.
We've now taken a greater responsibility for African Heritage Month and, with that, there was an open invitation to all members of the Legislative Assembly, yourself included.
Aside from that, groups like BBI, for example, they would have a variety of events throughout the year, they would invite myself and yourself and those who have an interest, and essentially that's how we formulate our schedule - we really aren't involved to the point where we develop invitation lists for these kinds of events.
MR. PARIS: I want to continue this just for another minute. I know that you mentioned BBI and I was an original board member for five years on the BBI, so yes I do get invited to their events and I do get invited to all those other events.
My comment is more - and you mentioned Jane Elliott, whom I met a number of years ago, and certainly my years at Dalhousie I had the great fortune of doing a presentation in partnership with Jane Elliott. You mentioned that she was here, that you hosted her. I've got to say this - that it was disappointing for me to wake up one morning to my alarm radio and hear by the news that was on the radio that day that Ms. Elliott was in town. I would have thought that somebody with that high a profile, at least the appropriate critics would have been made aware of her being in the province and would have been at least invited to shake her hand or to meet her.
Again I reiterate that it seems like the other critic areas that I have, it seems like that protocol does happen and does take place, and I think in this instance probably what is of great concern to me is that when I look around the House of Assembly and I see that I'm the only individual of African descent in the House of Assembly, that, combined with being the critic, it just seemed that in itself would merit at the very, very least some consideration, and taking that aside I think the fact that it is a critic area and, again I reiterate, I don't want to speak for the honourable member who is the Liberal critic, but I thought it might have been an oversight on the part of the department.
MR. BARNET: Well, as I said when I was discussing that in my opening remarks, we were but one partner in many on that particular event. It was focused at business, schools and civil servants; in fact the invitation list didn't even include my own name, I'm sure, but I did have an opportunity to meet Dr. Elliott.
I will say this, that often there are events like that where we notify Opposition members and other MLAs through media advisories. In the case of Dr. Elliott's visit, there was advance media and notice through Communications Nova Scotia to all members. So in terms of the actual invitation list, the invitation actually was specific to students at specific schools, to business and government leaders. It was really, you know, focused around that
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and we were but one of many partners - and I don't know how many. Wayne? (Interruption) Twelve specific partners.
[4:30 p.m.]
MR. PARIS: One more comment on that and then I'll let it rest, but I would just request that you, as minister, be more sensitive in that area and think about the critics and, more appropriately - and again I'm certainly not going to speak for the Liberal critic, but certainly myself as the NDP African Nova Scotian Affairs Critic, I would like to be given an invite to more of these events. That wasn't a question, that was more of a request than anything else. Do you have a problem with that?
MR. BARNET: No, no. I didn't answer because it wasn't a question.
MR. PARIS: No, and I said it wasn't a question.
You have a business plan. Your business plan is over the next 12 months - and I know my time is probably getting a little short here, and I know that that plan is available on your Web site, but could you in just a couple of minutes tell me what your immediate goals are, what your immediate targets are for the office? - I should say the department.
MR. BARNET: We have three specific strategic goals, and I'll read them for you, member:"To facilitate and support an integrated approach within government on matters related to African Nova Scotian issues, and provide corporate policy, strategic advice, and support to departments in order to build a sustainable framework for government relations". That's number one. Number two: "To build collaboratively with the African Nova Scotian Community to foster development and capacity building". Our number three strategic goal is: "To enhance awareness and understanding of African Nova Scotian experiences to government". So those are our broad strategic goals as they appear in our business plan for 2008-2009.
MR. PARIS: And does that business plan include additional person power - so are you hiring more resources?
MR. BARNET: That would be included in our actual Budget Estimates. There are two FTEs and specific to address areas where we have what I would describe as some stress on our office around communications and research, so that we're better able to do the work that we do.
MR. PARIS: Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't quite - so you say there are two FTEs. So is that currently or, in addition to, there will be two more?
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MR. BARNET: In addition to our current capacity there will be two additional FTEs - they may not be necessarily two specific people, but they might be apportioned at a time, if that makes any sense to you.
MR. PARIS: Yes. When you're doing the round of the community sessions, do you have data or have you provided some sort of analysis that - is there any analysis that's available of the data that you collected during those information sessions?
MR. BARNET: We do debrief after the sessions. We do keep track of the number of people who present. Part of the rationale for us being out there is to provide information to others. So as a department, we do keep track of individuals who present. We don't keep running minutes or that kind of stuff, we don't believe it's necessary, but we do keep notes and we do, to the greatest extent we can, keep track of those who present and the issues that they raise, that kind of thing.
MR. PARIS: Can you give me some examples of some of the strategies that maybe came out of the community sessions that were considered by the community as a high priority? I guess that's part A of the question, and then part B of the question is, of those strategies that were considered as a high priority, have any of them been implemented? If they have - I guess there's a part C, too - if any of them haven't been, do you have a timeline for those?
MR. BARNET: Well, we've had two very specific groups of meetings, what we call our ANSCAPs - one on youth and one on community development. One of the things that we're trying to do is to draw from the community their concerns, their issues, and provide back to them opportunities to address those concerns and issues. To specifically answer your question, in addition to all that stuff we've done in development of the office, we've gone out with these two very specific initiatives, two very specific discussion areas.
One of the things that we did learn early on was there was a desire and a need for more capacity building in the community development aspect of what it is that we do. So we've been working with groups and individuals to try to help them along with board development, capacity development.
We've brought a number of individuals and groups into our offices to meet with a variety of stakeholders across government and we found it to be helpful for them and for us. We've had a lot of face-to-face discussion with individuals and groups who have had concerns. I could probably give you some very specific ones; for example, a very specific one that I was involved in at the very beginning was the Africville file. We've worked very closely with the Africville Genealogical Society. We've provided some resources, some support to help them with capacity-building so they can develop as a board and move to that next level, to work towards the redevelopment of the Seaview African United Baptist Church.
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Oh, yes, the Black Loyalist Heritage Society, how could I forget, I've been there probably 15 times now. We've worked very closely with them, as they moved forward and, as you're well aware, they've had some progress and they've had some setbacks and we've helped them along the way. There are a variety of other groups and organizations that we've helped.
Just to give you an example of some of the things, or a thing that we've done, early on we met with the Black Cultural Centre and they were having some issues around the infrastructure, around funding, their ability to sustain themselves. We were able to facilitate a rental arrangement with another group that approached us, that needed some support. So we found two groups with needs that we were able to bring together. That's just one example where we were able to - we met two needs with one specific task.
The Health Association of African Canadians, we were able to bring them on as a tenant in the Black Cultural Centre, give them some needed revenue, we facilitated the whole thing. They were able to find space at an affordable price, the centre was able to raise revenue as a result of that lease accommodation. So it was a win-win and that's just one example of some of the things that we've been able to do in terms of facilitating, bringing things together.
These not necessarily came out of any of the meetings that we've had but they were earlier successes and we've been able to do those kinds of things. Often what happens is all people really need is to know specifically who to go to and what government department, to be able to get something done. It's just a matter of connecting people to people. I can tell you, we've done that with the ANSMA, with other groups and organizations and been able to make these tourism connections, specifically with the Da Costa Trail, as an example. We brought folks from Natural Resources and Tourism, Culture and Heritage, the Department of Health Promotion and Protection, all together, to help break down roadblocks that might have occurred. Providing opportunities for people to have that face-to-face dialogue to get stuff done, those are just some real examples of what we've been able to do.
MR. PARIS: You mentioned roadblocks and I heard you mention the 25 years with respect to the Africville Genealogical Society and that you're working with that particular organization to rebuild, and my interpretation was with respect to the Seaview church. That's been a topic of discussion for a long time. Could you tell me where you are with that because I would think that sort of - the realization of that project is going to take a co-operative effort by not only the federal government, but also I see an involvement by the provincial government and by the City of Halifax.
It seems like I've used the word "timelines" a lot here today. Do you have an expected timeline with respect to that project? When are we actually going to see some construction down there?
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MR. BARNET: Well, my desire would have been last year, or the year before, or the year before that, but I'll say this, that even in advance of being the MLA for Hammonds Plains-Upper Sackville, I've always had an interest in this particular area of discussion. As a former member of Halifax Regional Municipality, I had an interest then. I raised it with my colleagues at council at that time. I believe I've developed a good relationship and our office has developed a good relationship with the board there. We were the ones who initiated and facilitated the initial discussions between the federal government, the municipality, and ourselves.
In the early days it was a little rough, but I'll say for the first time that I now believe there is a desire by everyone involved, to see the reconstruction of that church. I don't know if I always believed that to be the case. It's now a matter of convincing other levels of government that it's never the wrong time to do the right thing. I certainly would have liked to have seen that church built and standing for the 25th Anniversary picnic, the celebration, I believe it would have been tremendous.
I've expressed to members of the society and to the chairman of their society that this is a great opportunity for them coming up. We've got municipal elections and I think it is one of those things that really could be a priority for a municipal government, particularly for candidates seeking office. As a province, we've been very supportive of seeing that facility constructed.
I've briefed all of my colleagues extensively on this particular file and we are awaiting a resolution from the municipality that will be successful, that will be acceptable and that will see the development of that church on that site and, as well, the support of our federal partners - I could talk about that for an hour, easily. I think we've turned a corner on this one. We're not there yet.
MR. PARIS: Thank you, and I could probably talk for another couple of hours but in the spirit of co-operation and teamwork, I also - before I turn the microphone over to my colleague, the member for Dartmouth East - would just like to say that we're going into the 25th year of African Heritage Month community celebrations here in metro and also this is D250. I think probably for me, as an MLA and as an MLA of African descent, it even emphasizes that much more some of those things that have been in abeyance, that have been up there far too long when it comes to doing the right thing. It's time that they were done. With that, I give up the microphone to my colleague.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, honourable member.
The honourable member for Dartmouth East.
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MS. JOAN MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm going to be asking some questions for the next half-hour, or a little bit less than a half-hour, on Health Promotion and Protection and mental health, so I'll try to separate - can I do it that way?
MR. BARNET: We can but we're going to have to have a complete staff change. I thought what we were going to try to do was do African Nova Scotian Affairs first and then - is there any way, Mr. Chairman, that we can do - I understand the Liberal caucus has questions for us on African Nova Scotian Affairs and then beyond that there are no further questions?
MS. MASSEY: On African Nova Scotian Affairs?
MR. BARNET: Right. Is there a way we can do that, to facilitate this, so we don't have to change?
[4:45 p.m.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: If it's agreed, I guess we could do anything we want, if we have unanimous consent at this committee, but I'd like to hear from members at the table, relative to the issue that's brought before us.
The honourable member for Glace Bay.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, I don't know what protocol would be here but the New Democratic Party has their time and we have our time, and how we use our time is up to us and how the NDP uses their time is up to them. I don't mean to be crude, but if the minister has to keep some more staff here, he has to keep some more staff here. It might be easier but, at the same time, I don't know what the NDP is going to do, most of us don't.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I'm going to recognize the honourable member for Preston and then we'll make a decision on this issue.
The honourable member for Preston.
MR. KEITH COLWELL: Thank you. I have other commitments today and I would like to continue on with African Nova Scotian Affairs, with the concurrence of the minister and the NDP. We can limit our time to the same amount of time that the members from the NDP caucus had, that should be satisfactory.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I understand, if I might, that technically we have to permit the switching back and forth, as the NDP have requested. With that, we'll go to the member for Dartmouth East.
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MR. BARNET: Okay, so we'll change our staff. I guess the difficulty, Mr. Chairman, is that I had some opening remarks with respect to Health Promotion and Protection that I wanted to read into the record and I understood that what we were going to do, initially, from earlier conversations, was we would do African Nova Scotian Affairs first and then Health Promotion and Protection second. I know in the case of other departments, where there are multiple responsibilities, that's what happened.
So maybe what we could do, if it's agreeable . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I'm going from recall now, but we did have a situation the other day along these same lines with the Minister of Environment and his other responsibility, Labour and Workforce Development, and at that particular time we took a brief recess and adjourned and went to the House Leaders for a ruling. At that time it was essentially that we have to go forward with the responsibilities that are under any given minister's responsibility.
Yes, I realize that it does create some inconvenience. In fact, the member is right, that's not what happened at that particular time but that was the decision that actually was rendered and there was an agreement to stick to the one portfolio, Environment, and move. In this case I've been advised by the Government House Leader, at least at this point, that you can't alternate back and forth. In that case, the floor is actually - and it's the NDP that has the time, Minister, so unless I hear otherwise I have to stick with that precedent.
I would like to hear what the MLA for Dartmouth East has to say on that.
MS. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, if the minister wants to make his opening remarks on Health Promotion and Protection and mental health, does that eat into my time now? I wasn't here on Friday when he made his remarks and I thought you had done all of them, all at the same time. I just thought that was a way you would have done all departments, your opening remarks all at the same time.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, it would be my understanding that it would tick away on the NDP time because we could have a minister, and we do have ministers who are responsible for five and six different departments and some offices of this and ministerial responsibilities of that, so I think what we had better do is go to the member for Dartmouth East at this particular time and I can confer with the Government House Leader as to what his understanding may be, but if you could just give me a minute and we will dock this minute.
Well, again, I'm appealing to members around this table. If, in fact, there was an agreement then we want to respect and honour the agreement, but if there's no agreement, then, in fact, we have to recognize the Party that has the time allocation, and in this case it's the NDP. So I guess what I'm saying is, is there an agreement as far as the NDP is concerned,
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to let the minister make his statement at this particular time? Was there a previous arrangement made?
MS. MASSEY: I really don't know what agreement was made. All I know was I was going to be here, we were going to ask our questions on African Nova Scotian Affairs. The first half-hour - we have an hour - was with Mr. Paris, then I would do the next half-hour on Health Promotion and Protection, then the Liberals would have their hour and I don't know what they were going to do with their hour.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, I think what we're going to do here is move along and the member for Dartmouth East has the floor. The NDP doesn't seem to recognize that there was a previous agreement - I'm not saying there was or there wasn't, I'm just asking. They're shaking their heads, they want to get on with this, I want to get on with this and I'll defer to the member for Dartmouth East - and so does the minister, obviously, yes.
MR. BARNET: You know what, it's been so long that I forget what the question was.
MS. MASSEY: I didn't ask one yet. I'll start now. I think the clock has been going since we started, I've got like 10 minutes.
I just want to ask some questions around what your department is doing with heart disease and stroke initiatives, you know, preventive things, because recently the information that has come out from the Canadian - on that topic, heart disease, specifically relating to women, is what I'm interested in. According to the 2007 Heart and Stroke Foundation's annual report, compared to men, women's risk of dying following a cardiovascular event, such as a heart attack or stroke, is higher and women are less likely to be treated by a specialist.
There are various reasons why women are falling behind in the issue of heart disease and stroke. I know on your Web site it says that the Office of Health Promotion and Protection will educate and inform Nova Scotians about our current health status, risks to our health and how we can lead healthier lifestyles. So I'm looking at what - you know, because your department is Health Promotion and Protection and I think protection and the promotion of good health really is probably going to be one of the few things that's going to drag us out of the dilemma we're in now with the Department of Health.
I believe you've invested an additional amount of money in your integrated stroke strategy, which is focused on prevention, that was in the budget.
MR. BARNET: That would be Health.
MS. MASSEY: Well, see, there you go. It's this whole grey area of, you know - it's prevention.
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MR. BARNET: Let me try to demystify it because really, if you think about it on the simplest of terms, at Health Promotion and Protection we try to prevent people from being unhealthy. At Health, they treat people who are unhealthy. The only area of exception to that is in the area of addictions treatment. We provide funding to the district health authorities, through our department, to support that element.
So everything related to the treatment of individuals would be at the Department of Health. Everything related to the aspects of preventing people from being unhealthy in the first place, would be us. To give you an example, or some examples of the things that we're doing with respect to that: we've partnered very closely with key stakeholders, including the Heath and Stroke Foundation, Nova Scotia Division, and we've launched with them, and through them, a number of initiatives - the most recent would be the walking initiative that the Heart and Stroke Foundation has embraced, fully I would say.
They've developed a very comprehensive strategy for the province, in terms of trying to get people active and healthy through a walking initiative. It's called Walkabout - I have a bright yellow t-shirt with Walkabout on it. We actually launched it back in the winter. They have developed a comprehensive Web site that enables individuals and groups to log the amount of steps they take, to look at the health benefits of it.
We launched it with a number of community groups that took advantage of it. I can tell you there's a group of walkers in the north end of Halifax who actually initiated a walking challenge where they're walking to Oprah Winfrey and they've actually kept track of the amount of steps they've taken. I don't know how far they are, I think they're there by now. They've developed these little strategies and challenges to help them monitor the amount of steps. They also have distributed pedometers, thousands of pedometers, to young people, to old people, to middle-age people, to help them keep track of their steps. I usually wear one - I haven't for the last couple of weeks, but we're going to encourage people to do that, to monitor where they're at.
We have a very dedicated group in our department that are dedicated to assisting government through social marketing. At some point in time we'll work with our partners to help with that, bring attention, awareness to the issue and try to move the public, inspire the public to be more active and healthy.
As part of what we've done, we also have a group that helps develop our healthy public policy and that has enabled us to move forward with initiatives like our tax credit for all families, all Nova Scotians who now can take advantage of a $500 tax credit, to help them reduce the financial cost around being involved in sport and recreation, so they can be more physically active.
These are also things we've tied into our research work, like the PACY study, where we've analyzed the activities of young people, their intake of food, and we've developed a
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baseline analysis of the health of our young people. We've gone one step further than that, we've advanced it where we've gone from the use of pedometers to now accelerometers, so we can actually get a better baseline of our population. In addition to that, as I've explained earlier, that healthy public policy has enabled me to convince my colleagues to invest in some of our social marketing, to invest in our tax credits, to invest in our infrastructure, and I believe that bringing awareness to the situation, having solid information around where we're at, working with our partners to inspire Nova Scotians, giving them an opportunity to participate by removing the financial burden and, the most important element is having facilities and infrastructure for people to be able to participate in physical activity.
With the passage of this budget, we will see provincial sources towards recreation and active lifestyle infrastructure, just in our budget area alone, $98 million provincial money over the next 10 years. Now, when you combine that with other partners, we expect to see over $300 million over the next 10 years. That is not including funding that we would be able to put towards trail development that we're now seeing as a result of our off-highway vehicle fund and that fund alone, I believe this year, will probably develop over $1 million for the trails - $1 million provincial contribution. They're the best trails to build because it's $1 million of our money and then countless millions of volunteer labour, other levels of government and fundraising that sees trails built all around this province. Those are the things that we're doing to get to exactly what you're talking about.
To speak to our successes, we have had successes. We've had early measures of success and I'll point to one - Statistics Canada has informed us that Nova Scotia is now the number one province in this country that has people enrolled in organized sport and recreation activities. We're ahead of every other province, and I think that's something - in a specific age group, that 15-and-over age group - that we all should be very proud of.
[5:00 p.m.]
That is the beginning, we have to keep going down this same path. There's lots more work to do and as I continue to tell my staff over and over again, my goal - it's our goal but we share this goal - is to help make Nova Scotia the healthiest and safest province in the country.
I believe we can do it, I believe we have to do it, for the very reasons that you've talked about. We have a high rate of heart disease and stroke. It's not good enough now to just simply treat people, we have to keep them healthy in the first place - and here's another important point - we're recognized now around the world for our successes.
I have to say that I was extremely proud, along with my deputy, to represent Nova Scotia and Canada at an international health summit on the inequalities of health care in the world. We had people there from the World Health Organization, we had people there from
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countries I've never even heard of, who were looking to Nova Scotia as being world leaders in population health.
We presented to the Scottish Government and to the summit, and I would say we were well received. People were interested in what we were doing so they can do the same thing we're doing and have the same kind of success we're beginning to see now.
It's not just here or internationally. I can tell you that when I was at the minister's meeting for sport and recreation and physical activity in Whitehorse, I was one of the few ministers - I think the only one - who was scrummed by the media after the initial press conference and it had nothing to do with the Canada Winter Games that were going on in Whitehorse, it had everything to do with our school food and nutrition policy. We were seen by the folks there as national leaders. They wanted to know how we were able to do it and they wanted to talk about our successes and how they, too, could achieve the same level of success that we've had.
MS. MASSEY: You mentioned the B-FIT program, and I know you know that our rink has gone in Dartmouth East, so I know that there have to be some kind of criteria around getting these new rinks and playgrounds into communities. I'm just wondering if maybe you can explain the criteria around that. How does that money flow through, that's attached to the budget for those initiatives and communities?
MR. BARNET: Well, generally what would happen is community groups and organizations, or municipalities - and it is primarily municipalities, it could be a university - would make a contact with our staff to lay out what it is they're thinking, where they're at. There's an application process and a development of a proposal.
We try to look for community support. We will fund up to one-third of the cost. One of the things that we require is that there be an entity with some track record, some ability to carry out the project, as well, there has to be a significant amount of community use within the project so that we don't end up building a project or funding a project that wouldn't have community use. Essentially it's like this - and there has to be a demonstrated need.
We've assisted groups and organizations with funding to help them do some of their research, their work to identify the need, and do some development work in advance of their proposals. In the case of the Dartmouth side of the Halifax Regional Municipality, my guess is that it would be best if the municipality led - and in the case of the Halifax Regional Municipality, they generally lead these kinds of projects - would bring it through their budget process where they would commit an amount of money toward the project and then we would look at it, as we had resources available, we would make a contribution, depending on money available and the actual validity of the desire to move forward with the project.
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MS. MASSEY: I guess I'm just wondering - I can imagine there are communities around the province that are lacking facilities from farther back from when, say, our rink was taken away from us and turned into something else. So the whole priority list issue - similar to roads in the province - I'm just hoping that this isn't something the government is going to take an opportunity to travel around the province with their bag of money, just handing it out without looking at who has asked for these facilities in the past and that there's a real priority list, that it's done in a very straightforward way that the public knows what is going on. So I'll just leave those comments with you.
MR. BARNET: Well, I can reply to that.
MS. MASSEY: Sure.
MR. BARNET: One of the things that we require - there are a number of things that we require. One is that there is a demonstrated need, that they can prove that this isn't just something they'd like to have, that there is actually a need, that the current infrastructure has deficiencies, or there is no infrastructure in place.
We've done a great deal of work at the department level of assessing the recreation infrastructure needs around the province. We've assisted municipalities with doing engineer studies of the structural integrity of arenas and pools and that kind of stuff. In fact, I believe we've done nearly every single arena and pool in the province.
There has to be confirmed funding available from other sources. It can't simply just be that they're hoping to get money; there has to be some level of confirmation that they've been able to raise some money, or will be able to raise money through the levying of municipal rates.
The important element that we've added to this is that there has to be municipal co-operation. One of the things that we know we can't do is build facilities side by side. Municipal co-operation is essential for us to be able to have these facilities so that they're strategically located to get maximum advantage for all Nova Scotians.
A perfect example of that is one of our most recent announcements. The Town of Bridgewater and the Municipality of the District of Lunenburg had been working in partnership, and I guess the best way to describe it is the way they did - they were married and divorced four times before they were able to come together and actually agree on a site and a location and develop a plan. Because we included in our criteria municipal co-operation, it made them work together. The councillors and the mayors in that area thanked us for that. Now we are able to see development of that facility that's badly needed.
It's very easy to go out there on the ground and see what facilities and infrastructure are in place in that district, that area. The element of demonstrating a need wasn't a big
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challenge for them and the element of confirming their funding wasn't a major challenge for them. But the municipal co-operation, in this case, was a big challenge and they were able to overcome that challenge because we included it in . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. That concludes the time frame for the NDP at this particular time, so we'll shift to the Liberal caucus.
The honourable member for Preston.
MR. KEITH COLWELL: Thank you very much. First of all I want to thank the honourable member of the NDP, the Critic for African Nova Scotian Affairs, for bringing up a very important topic about invitations to functions in the community. I echo his comments and I would assume that the minister is taking those suggestions to heart and will, indeed, endeavour to invite both of us to any of these functions. I think it is very, very important, especially in the communities we operate in.
The other issue which I've been pushing and pushing, as the minister will know, is the Black Cultural Centre and proper funding for it. You indicted the lease arrangement that was made with another organization. Unfortunately that was a great arrangement, but unless they had about 50 arrangements like that, it really wouldn't solve their funding problem.
I've requested, over and over again, long-term funding for the Black Cultural Centre. Status as a museum in Nova Scotia would give it some protection for funding for a long time and also provide the staff there with a Civil Service situation so they could have some long-term benefits that the province can provide in no other way. Also, this is a very special centre; it's the only one like it in the country. It's extremely important that it's preserved and promoted and expanded, indeed, to protect the culture, the history and the heritage of the Black community.
Has there been any movement at all to improve the funding from the province, to look at the Black Cultural Centre as a museum in the province and to ensure that the culture of the community is preserved long-term?
MR. BARNET: Well, I'll say this about it. We've worked very closely with the boards and executive director on a variety of fronts. I can tell you that a couple of years ago, two years ago, nearing the end of a budget year, as a result of a discussion I had with the board of directors and the executive director, they brought to my attention a number of concerns around their operation, including their ability to maintain the building in its current capacity.
I was able to convince my colleagues to provide them with a significant, one-time contribution to address their three - what they described at the time - key areas, including the roof, some interior work, and maybe some mechanical work. I can't remember exactly what
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the three key areas were. That funding was provided to them and I know that there's a new roof now because I've driven by and seen it. That's one of the areas where we were able to address some of the concerns.
I'll say that annually, as the centre is assessed like all centres, through the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage, we have made representation to the minister and to senior staff at the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage, to ensure that the facility has its fair share of funding and that it is treated somewhat differently than the other organizations and the other similar facilities, so they're able to maintain their operation.
I've had private conversations with their new chairman, Les Oliver. I have a great deal of respect for Les Oliver and I intend, at some point in time in the very near future, to meet with him again and their board, to see ways that we can work with them, through our office, to help facilitate a long-term solution so that they don't have to continually be worried about pinching dollars year in and year out and getting to a point where they've exhausted their budget.
Now, we haven't heard from them in a couple of years, in terms of that, like they have not actually raised this issue where they've either run out of or are running out of money in the last couple of years. I know there's been a great deal of work done, there is a board reorganization underway right now to help rejuvenate the facility. They've actually had - they've begun this quite some time ago. In fact, Gus Wedderburn, who had a very great interest in that facility, contacted me in advance of him passing away, looking for some support in how the board could get reinvigorated.
There was some work that was going to take place on annual fundraisers and they had secured the support of people like Charlie Keating and others, to help facilitate large fundraisers so that they could have this annual thing that would raise money. It didn't materialize to the extent that they wanted it to, but I'm confident that with the board restructuring, a new chairman and continued commitment by our government to support that facility, that they will be there for a long, long time.
[5:15 p.m.]
MR. COLWELL: I really appreciate the effort that the minister is putting into this. I know I have met with the minister and the board at one time as well. Maybe just before the next election you can get another $200,000 to fix the roof.
MR. BARNET: They asked for it and we gave it to them.
MR. COLWELL: Unfortunately, it took them near an election to get that $200,000 and that's a fact.
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The issue with this is the funding has been seriously cut to the Black Cultural Centre, and that's a fact, and it has not been reinstated by this government. Until that happens, the centre is on hold, there's a tremendous amount of things they cannot do. It's seriously affecting the ability for them to move forward and do new things in the centre, things that are very important to the history and culture of the community. Until that changes, the centre is really at a standstill.
That is not acceptable, that is simply not acceptable in today's society. We really have to push harder, to ensure that the culture is preserved in the community and in the Province of Nova Scotia. It's a very important part of our history in this province and a very important part of the structure of the province. The fact that the funding has been cut back is not acceptable.
Have you any intentions of bringing the funding back to where it was when this government took office?
MR. BARNET: I'm going to have to dispute the honourable member's facts because - and I'm not doing this with a great deal of reliability because I'm not the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Heritage, it would be his responsibility to defend those budgets - my understanding is that there has been no reduction in contribution to that facility. I would respectfully request that the member raise that with the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Heritage, when you have the opportunity to examine his budget at that point in time.
I can say this, that I believe we have a great relationship with the facility, with the centre, with the board. We have worked very closely and we have tried to accommodate every single request that they've made of me, as the minister.
With respect to your opening remarks about the timing of the contribution to that facility, I would say this, that the timing had everything to do with the fact that there were funds available at the end of the year, on March 31st. It had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that there was a pending election, maybe months later.
Often we found ourselves, and we continue to find ourselves in situations where we're able to meet one-time needs and desires of community groups and organizations. We fulfilled that requirement. That is something I'm extremely proud of and I don't think it's fair or reasonable or right to describe it as political. It was an opportunity to meet a need, the need was met. It was done exclusively because there were funds available at the end of the year, not because an election happened four months later, or three months later - I don't even know when the election happened. But you can describe it the way you want to and I'll describe it the way I do.
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MR. COLWELL: Well, the only reason I brought that up was because the Premier was there and touted his new candidate as working so hard to get this funding for the centre. That's the only reason I bring that up and it was a fact, it did happen and it was there.
My point with the whole thing is it is just wonderful that the centre got the $200,000 it did and got the roof fixed. Perhaps if there wasn't going to be an election that year, it might have been delayed another year and that's not the way to do business. This facility is too important to the people of this province to be playing with it on a political basis and, indeed, I do have the numbers and the funding has been cut. Now the centre has to put in a request to this board that isn't even in government - it's a board that has been appointed - for funding every year. If they happen to get on the list to get the funding, they have enough funding to operate with; if not, they don't.
The only reason they haven't been knocking on your door is probably because they've given up. It's very, very difficult to operate. They've reduced staff, they've done all kinds of other things and if it wasn't for the good management they have there and the dedicated board they have, they'd probably close today and that would be a crime for this province, it would absolutely be a crime.
So I think it's time that we looked at this centre very seriously and give them the credit they're needed and the funds to operate with. They're a first-class, world organization and they're not treated by this government, as far as I'm concerned and as far as the community is concerned, the way they should be.
MR. BARNET: Well, I would say this, the chairman of that organization I would describe as a personal friend, somebody I know well. As I've indicated, I've had private conversations with him and have a great relationship, I will continue to have a great relationship with him. He has good work to do and I have good work to do and together we'll make sure, as I said, that facility stays here in this province and is viable for a long, long time to come.
As he brings concerns to my attention, I assure the member that I will do everything in my power to address them.
MR. COLWELL: Well, I appreciate that and I know the minister is serious about this, I know you are and I know you'll do anything you can to help the centre. I don't know where the holdup is, maybe it is in Tourism, Culture and Heritage, where the funding comes from, but it's a very, very important issue, it's important to all Nova Scotians, not just in the Black community but all Nova Scotians, that this centre is provided. It's an excellent opportunity for tourism in the province and we've got to protect the heritage and history of our province and this is one facility that truly does that. Anyone who hasn't seen the facility and hasn't seen the extremely good work they're doing with a very limited budget, needs to go there and see the fantastic work they do.
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I am very pleased, as you are, that the new chairman - the other board did very well as well - brings new life to the board and a credibility that only his father could have brought when he originally came up with the idea of the Black Cultural Centre.
So with that, I'm going to turn the remainder of my time over to my colleague, the member for Glace Bay.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Glace Bay.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll continue on with African Nova Scotian Affairs, just to avoid the confusion. I'm sure staff have other things to do in their day than be here. If I may, I'll even eat into some of my own time to make a suggestion that in the future, how we approach this is the same way people appear before this committee and that's alphabetically, and that when your department appears here alphabetically, that we all finish with our estimates before we move on to another department.
The NDP has a very large caucus, we have a very small one but both of our critics are here. I'm not sure of the critic responsibilities of at least one of the NDP members here but I do know the African Nova Scotian Affairs Critic here, so it would seem to me that would make more sense and would be easier on the minister's staff. It's the same minister for both but the staff involved here would be able to come and complete their duties and then move on. It's just a suggestion that maybe we can use in the future.
Let me make a few statements. I know the member for Waverley-Fall River-Beaver Bank made reference at the first of his remarks to an appearance he made in Glace Bay at the UNIA cultural museum. The minister has also appeared at the UNIA Cultural Museum; the Lieutenant Governor of Nova Scotia has also made an appearance at the cultural museum. Both the minister and the member for Waverley-Fall River-Beaver Bank would know of the tremendous work that's being done at that cultural museum in Glace Bay. I'm not sure if the rest of Nova Scotia is aware of it, which perhaps is unfortunate because of the great work that is being done there.
The volunteers who are involved in rebuilding what was once known as the UNIA Hall, in rebuilding that facility and the cultural museum itself, they've done a number of tremendous events throughout the year, last year and this year, and they celebrated Marcus Garvey Days, they had celebrations there, they've done fundraising there at the hall. They've actually done fundraising not just for the hall but for other charitable events and charities within Glace Bay. So I want to take the opportunity on the record, and I'm sure that the minister would agree and so would the member from the NDP, that Theresa Brewster and her volunteers there at the UNIA Cultural Museum in Glace Bay are doing a tremendous job.
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I did want to ask the minister his office's involvement with the UNIA Cultural Museum in Glace Bay, if you could explain that involvement, what's being done by your office, not only just in moral help but also in financial help as well.
MR. BARNET: I may have told this story before, I think I have actually. I was approached back in 2003 on one of our initial visits to the Glace Bay area as a result of my being newly-appointed Minister of African Nova Scotian Affairs, I was approached by Theresa and others from the Black Employment Partnership to assist with an issue that they were facing and that was the potential of a tax sale of the facility.
The facility had gone into a state of disrepair, there was limited board involvement left to maintain that facility. I was asked if I could raise this with the mayor. I understood that there were discussions with the municipality but they hadn't been completely successful. During that trip I had the good fortune of having the mayor pick me up at the airport. Rather than turn left and head into Sydney, I asked him to turn right and head to Glace Bay. We drove over and we had a look at the facility. I raised the issue with the mayor, I provided him with a package that was provided to me around the concern and he brought it to council.
I understood that council may have subsequently voted to remove it from the tax sale list and staved off the pending tax sale. That was the smallest part. The biggest part was assisting with the redevelopment of the facility.
At the time I was also the Minister of Municipal Relations and I was able to work with programs we had at Municipal Relations - I think they were called the PCAP programs, or something like that, where we were able to provide capital assistance to projects and we provided some seed money, capital assistance - that's back in 2003, maybe 2004 - to assist with that hall. It wasn't a lot of money but it was enough to get them some money that they could go out and leverage other money.
In the end we had a facility that now is something that that community is extremely proud of. They've been able to preserve the history of that community. They worked with Cape Breton University and you were there - I said that wrong, didn't I? University of Cape Breton?
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Cape Breton University.
MR. BARNET: Okay. They worked very closely with some professors and there's been - you were there, you saw the launch of the book, it was great, and a lot of young people, some stories told that day and it proved to me that their desire to maintain that facility was valid and the investment we made was a very solid investment.
Since then we've invested in other facilities in the area but that was our limited help and I was proud to play a role in that.
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MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I'd like to know if there has been a request from the cultural museum for any kind of annual operating grant or assistance in funding and if anything is available through your office.
MR. BARNET: We support Marcus Garvey Days, which was 2008. We provided resources for Theresa to attend a community development conference in Wolfville - that was earlier. We've covered some costs of events, that kind of stuff, but we've not had an actual request. We don't have a program that would fund that.
What we'd do if we did receive a request for ongoing support, we'd have to refer it to Tourism, Culture and Heritage and they'd have to look at that within their program responsibilities.
We've funded specific programs, often seed money, often specifically around things like after-school programs for youth, essentially that's it.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I guess I'm trying to get to whether or not the minister would be open to being supportive of such a request. It seems to fit within your office and the museum may have to go through Tourism, Culture and Heritage, but if a request were there that, indeed, support from your office, I think, would go a long way in ensuring whether or not that request was granted.
MR. BARNET: Well, in fact, that is exactly what we do and have done. We get groups and organizations such as this who bring forward a proposal to us. We find the appropriate department, in this case it would likely be Tourism, Culture and Heritage, and we facilitate the face-to-face meetings with the senior staff people in these departments and the community groups and organizations. So if someone were to bring that to our attention at the hall, we would do that work that would facilitate that. It would be done out of our Cape Breton office, probably. We have, on many occasions, actually facilitated those kinds of discussions.
[5:30 p.m.]
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I will work, hopefully, to let those in charge know that perhaps you're open to a suggestion or perhaps a dialogue should be involved there about some permanent funding. You know, as I said, it's a tremendous facility. I think the member for Waverley-Fall River-Beaver Bank probably described it best on his visit that day, as a very diverse community. I couldn't agree with him more; it's probably the only thing we agree on, as a matter of fact. I couldn't agree with him more, in that case anyway.
Speaking of the Cape Breton office, I'd like to know a little about that Cape Breton office and I'd like to start out with, in particular, how many people are currently working at that office?
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MR. BARNET: We have three full-time employees working there.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Of those three full-time employees, could you explain their positions and exactly what they do?
MR. BARNET: We have an office manager, program administration officer and a community development officer. Just to give you an example of some of the work they do, they organized this year an African Heritage Month gala dinner, it sold out. They do the ongoing casework that would come before them - we've got a list here. I could provide you a list, there are 39 or 40 or 50 things: Melnick Hall Association, they work with them; the Hankard Street Community Hall in Whitney Pier, they work with them; Glace Bay UNIA Cultural Hall Partnership to assist the book launch; in New Waterford a partnership with St. Agnes Elementary School to participate in African Heritage Month event. Community presentations were held at Glace Bay UNIA Hall, Melnick Hall, New Waterford Fire Hall, Cumberland African Nova Scotian Association in Amherst. These are outside of Halifax groups, I guess they were closer to Amherst than we were, I don't know.
The Whitney Pier festival, Pierscape, they were involved in the Whitney Pier Youth Club summer day camp. The list goes on and on. I won't read it all, there's lots.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): All right, I would appreciate getting a copy of that list, as the minister has said. I'm interested in the position of office manager there, could you tell me who the office manager is and what the process was for selecting the office manager at that site?
MR. BARNET: Our office manager is a secretary, Brandie Shannon.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): You said you had an office manager and also . . .
MR. BARNET: Well, that's our clerical person, and then we have a program administration officer and a community development officer.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Who is the head of that office?
MR. BARNET: Wayn.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Could you name the other people in the office?
MR. BARNET: Sure. Lillian Marsman - is that the one you're trying to get to?
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Well, I didn't say I was trying to get at anyone, I just was asking you for the names of the people who work there.
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MR. BARNET: Chantel Reid-Demeter is the third staff.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): All right. The position of Ms. Marsman, what was that position again?
MR. BARNET: Program administration officer.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Could you tell me how the program administration officer was chosen and what was the process involved in that position?
MR. BARNET: I can't, it was done through the Public Service Commission. I'm not sure how they do that. (Interruption) It was a competition, I understand.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): It was an open competition that was posted and advertised, et cetera?
MR. BARNET: Yes.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): You now know that?
MR. BARNET: Yes.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): You didn't know it 30 seconds ago but now you know it.
MR. BARNET: No, you asked the first question - what was your first question?
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): My first question was how that position was chosen but you said you didn't know that because it was done through . . .
MR. BARNET: I know that it was done and my response to the first question was that it was done through the Public Service Commission. My response to the second question was that it was advertised and it was through our CareerBeacon, it was a posted competition, filled position.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): So there were interviews that were conducted for that position?
MR. BARNET: That's right.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Could you tell me how many interviews were done? How many people applied for that position? This is the position of program and administrative coordinator - is that what you called it?
[Page 502]
MR. BARNET: Program administration officer. There was an interview panel that was established in November 2006; a job description was approved by the Public Service Commission for the position of the program administration officer. The first request for applications was sent out in November 2006 and closed on November 29th. The first set of interviews was completed January 4-6, 2007 and there was an interview panel established. Eight candidates were interviewed and that's all I can tell you.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Does it say on that paper that you're reading from, Mr. Minister, how many people actually applied for the job? Is that eight applications that were made and eight people were interviewed?
MR. BARNET: I understand from the CEOs that we would only know the ones that the Public Service Commission would have provided us. There would be a screening process that would require that they provide those who met the minimum qualifications, I understand.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Are you aware of any connection between Ms. Marsman and the Progressive Conservative Party of Nova Scotia?
MR. BARNET: I am now.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): You are now? How did you become aware of that?
MR. BARNET: Someone told me.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): And what is the connection?
MR. BARNET: I understand that they're spouses.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Pardon me?
MR. BARNET: They're married to each other.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Who is married to each other? I said, are you aware of a connection between the Progressive Conservative Party of Nova Scotia and Ms. Marsman?
MR. BARNET: I thought you said the Progressive Conservative Party of Nova Scotia's candidate and Ms. Marsman.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): So it's obvious you are quite aware that a past candidate for the Progressive Conservative Party of Nova Scotia is the husband of Ms. Marsman.
[Page 503]
MR. BARNET: Right.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Were you aware of that in advance of Ms. Marsman getting that job?
MR. BARNET: I was not.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Did you at any time have any conversations with anyone involving the hiring or application of Ms. Marsman for that job?
MR. BARNET: I did not.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Did you or anyone in your department, to your knowledge, have any conversation with Todd Marsman, her husband, regarding her hiring to that position?
MR. BARNET: I did not.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Do you know of anybody else in your department who did?
MR. BARNET: I know of no one who did, no.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Can you tell me where the satellite office for Cape Breton is located?
MR. BARNET: King Street, we have an address here - 15 Dorchester Street, Sydney. It's on the corner of King Street and Dorchester Street.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): That's in an office complex on Dorchester Street in Sydney, is that correct?
MR. BARNET: There are current leased government offices there now.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Can you tell me who the owner of that building is?
MR. BARNET: No.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): You have no knowledge of who would own that building or who the government is renting that building from, in particular, for that particular space?
[Page 504]
MR. BARNET: I understand it is owned by 15 Dorchester Portfolio Inc.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): And you have no knowledge of who is the owner of that particular company?
MR. BARNET: I don't.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Have you ever heard of the name Martin Chernin?
MR. BARNET: Yes, I have.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): How do you know Mr. Chernin?
MR. BARNET: I saw him on the news about a month ago. He was redeveloping a theatre in the Sydney area.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Have you been aware in the past of Mr. Chernin? Have you ever heard of Mr. Chernin in connection with the Progressive Conservative Party of Nova Scotia?
MR. BARNET: No, I haven't.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): You've never heard the name Martin Chernin before?
MR. BARNET: Well, other than I saw him on the news.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chernin is a well-known supporter of the Progressive Conservative Party of Nova Scotia and has been known over the past several years to raise a lot of money for the Progressive Conservative Party of Nova Scotia. I find it strange that a Cabinet Minister in the Progressive Conservative Government of Nova Scotia would not be familiar with or would not have had mentioned to him in the past, the name Martin Chernin. In Cape Breton anyway, he is synonymous with the Progressive Conservative Party of Nova Scotia, in terms of his financial and moral support for that Party. I would find that very odd, but if you're saying you haven't, you haven't.
In this case, you have the wife of a past political candidate, provincially, who is employed at the satellite office of African Nova Scotian Affairs and you have that office located in a building that is owned by a person who has been well-connected with the Tory Party in Nova Scotia. Do you find that more than a coincidence, Mr. Minister?
[Page 505]
MR. BARNET: Well, first of all, let me say this, that I don't know Mr. Chernin, I don't believe I've ever met the man, I wouldn't know him if I tripped over him on the street. I saw the thing on the news around the redevelopment of a theatre. I wouldn't have known that he owned that building, nor would I have cared that he owned that building.
I can tell you this, that both the hiring of the individual who works in our office was done through a fair and open competition. I understand from my staff that she was a current employee of the Province of Nova Scotia with Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations - I didn't know that until now.
I know that when we went out to lease accommodations in that area, there was a tender process that was prepared by Transportation and Public Works, that sought proposals from landlords or developers for lease of space and had to meet a specific set of requirements that were established by the Department of Transportation and Public Works At the end of the day, the person who went through the bidding process or the job application process won, based on their merits, and I would say the same thing applies to the rental or leasing of this property.
I can tell this committee and that member that I had absolutely no involvement in any way, shape or form with the hiring of Ms. Marsman or the leasing of this space. It was done based on fair, open and transparent processes that I support and continue to support in this government.
I will readily admit that I don't know every Tory in Cape Breton. I think if you asked Mr. Chernin if he knew who I was, he probably wouldn't know me either. So, at the end of the day, this is a very transparent transaction that was done by the Department of Transportation and Public Works, with no political involvement whatsoever. I would say the same thing applies to the hiring of all of our staff at African Nova Scotian Affairs.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Well, Mr. Minister, you can say that. I can guarantee you that Mr. Chernin would know you, in terms of who is renting his building, I can guarantee you that.
MR. BARNET: Well, he may know this.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): He would know of the connection and as far as open and transparent, then unless you're willing to tell me who was on that interview panel, I'm not willing to exactly make up my mind on that yet. But sometimes, you know, if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
In this case you have, as I said, a defeated Tory candidate whose wife just happens to find her way through the pack of applicants and find a job, employment at a satellite office in Cape Breton and that office just happens to be located in an office building that is owned
[Page 506]
by one of the biggest bag men in Cape Breton for the Tory Party of Nova Scotia. If that's not more than a coincidence, I don't know what is. But anyway, that's something.
I am somewhat surprised that you don't know any of that, although you did know the connection with your Party, you did say you knew the connection with the Party and what you termed your program education officer, or whatever the term may be. Having said that, I brought it to your attention because it's very unusual.
The decision to go to that office in particular, to locate it where it was, you said that was based on office space that was available in the area. I'll tell you why I find that kind of peculiar as well, is because it's located in a downtown area but it's not located in an area that perhaps one would think would be closer to a lot of people who would use that office. The Whitney Pier area has a very long historic past of trying to get office space and trying to get offices located in their area. In this particular case that would have seemed to me to have been an ideal location for a satellite office of African Nova Scotian Affairs, but yet you find it located elsewhere. Can you tell me how that site was chosen, then?
[5:45 p.m.]
MR. BARNET: Well, first of all, let me go back and talk specifically about the interview panel. The interview panel consisted of three people, three people who I have a great deal of respect for and who I believe are hard-working civil servants. I will name them: Lynn Burgess, who works for the Public Service Commission, who was our HR consultant at the time and still is, I believe; Wayn Hamilton, who sits next to me; and Natasha Jackson who sits behind me. They did an excellent job, they chose that candidate and I support the decision they made.
You don't have to believe me if you don't want to. I told you what is the truth and that is the truth with respect to that.
With respect to the location of the site, the advice that I received from my staff was that it would be beneficial to have a location that was within the downtown core, close to other government offices. As I've expressed to you and to others before, a lot of our work that we do is referring people to and redirecting people to other government departments, so we believed that it was essential to be near those government departments.
Staff of the Department of Transportation and Public Works developed a matrix where they felt was the core area that would fit that criteria and it is described as this: location to be in close proximity to other government departments, beginning at the corner of Kings Road and Woodside Drive, north to Esplanade, Esplanade to Dorchester Street, Dorchester Street to Dodd Street, Dodd Street to Prince Street, Prince Street to Townsend Street, Townsend Street to Sheriff Avenue, Sheriff Avenue to Park Street, Park Street to Cottage Road, Cottage Road to George Street, George Street to Argyle Street, Agryle Street
[Page 507]
to Alexandra Street, Alexandra Street to Moxham Drive, Moxham Drive to Woodside Drive, and then Woodside Drive to Kings Road. That's how it is described by the Department of Transportation and Public Works.
My guess is - and I don't know this for certain because I don't know those streets - that would be that downtown core area. A full, open tender process occurred and the successful bidder was awarded the contract. Our department did not do that, it was done by the Department of Transportation and Public Works, on our behalf.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Let me clarify one thing, make it perfectly clear, that I am not calling into question the credibility of the people who are on that panel and made that decision, nor have any intention of doing that. What I am calling into question here is that there had to be someone, or several people, who knew that Ms. Marsman had a connection with the Tory Party of Nova Scotia through her husband, as a defeated Progressive Conservative candidate - had to know it. Indeed, the question I am asking is if that had any bearing whatsoever on her getting the job.
I find it - and I am not questioning the minister's word - very unusual that the minister wouldn't know about that until after that person got the job. You are the minister of that department and I'm sure that the people who are on that panel or who are employed in that department would know of the connection. Cape Breton is a very small community, there are very few people who run for the Progressive Conservative Party of Nova Scotia, or the Liberal Party or the New Democratic Party. One would know who the candidates are, one would know who lost and who won and one would certainly know their relatives in that community, it's a very small community.
I would find it unusual if no one had said to the minister, do you know, by the way, that one of the people considered for that position happens to be the wife of a defeated candidate for the Tory Party? But you're telling me that was never mentioned to you prior to Ms. Marsman getting that job.
MR. BARNET: Mr. Chairman, I believe that we are all honourable members, I believe I've answered that question. I'll answer it again, that I believe we have very capable and competent staff. They carried out the process that is set out by the Public Service Commission to hire our staff, all of our staff. I did not interfere in that process, nor have I ever interfered in the process of hiring staff.
I believe that to get the right person for the job is always in the best interests of all the public and at the end of the day the honourable member can believe me if he chooses to, or not, if he chooses not to. I think my track record speaks for itself and . . .
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I'm not questioning your track record, Mr. Minister. (Interruption) What I'm asking you is to answer the question I just asked, which
[Page 508]
you did not answer.(Interruption) You did not answer it. Mr. Chairman, the minister did not answer the question. I'm asking him if he knew of the connection between that particular person who is now employed in that office and a past Tory candidate, whether he knew of that before she was awarded that position. That's the direct question I'm asking.
MR. BARNET: Well, my answer is that I didn't know who was hired in that position until after they were hired and I wasn't aware that there was a connection until after that person was hired. So I answered the question, I think I've answered it three times.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I think in the interest of fairness here, there certainly is a disagreement here between two honourable members. The member has said that he doesn't know the individual, or didn't before they were hired. I wonder if the member for Glace Bay would consider going on to a new line of questioning . . .
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, that's not what he said. He didn't say he didn't know her. What I'm asking is if he knew of the connection. So what the minister is telling me is that he knew of the connection after the hiring was made, is that correct?
MR. BARNET: I didn't know Lillian Marsman before, I didn't know of the connection before. I only learned of it after the fact, after she was hired.
I had no involvement in the hiring of Lillian Marsman. As I understand from staff, she was a current employee of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, who competed for the job, went through the fair hiring process and was hired. I think I've answered that four different ways, exactly the same thing.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): After you became aware of that hiring, did it cause you any concern that this was the wife of a former Tory candidate for the Nova Scotia Progressive Conservative Party?
MR. BARNET: It caused me no concern whatsoever.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): You didn't see a concern in having someone who is politically connected with your Party now being hired and employed in a satellite office of African Nova Scotian Affairs in Cape Breton?
MR. BARNET: I believe that regardless of whether somebody is involved in politics or their family member is involved in politics, does not disqualify anyone from a job. At the end of the day, I've explained to the member that I did not know this person in advance of her applying for this job; I wasn't aware that she had applied for the job, I wasn't aware that she was related to this person. She was hired and then I became aware of it after the fact. I don't think it really makes one bit of difference. At the end of the day we had a fair hiring
[Page 509]
process that involved three very competent staff people who interviewed eight potential candidates and they chose one.
I accept their choice and I believe that after a year of operation as an office, the work and the good things that we're doing just gives me the confidence that the choice they made was the right choice.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Let me ask you, then, in particular, for that particular position, what were the qualifications that were required?
MR. BARNET: We do have a job description that was posted along with the advertisement that occurred during the competition for that job. Mr. Hamilton is looking for it now. We can get that for you but we just don't have it at our fingertips.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I'd be interested to hear what the qualifications were for that position.
MR. BARNET: We're going to have to get that to you because we don't have it at our fingertips right now. It included, as I understand, the ability to work within government, the ability to develop programs, Bachelor of Arts or equivalent. There were a number of criteria that were set out in the development of the job description, working through the Public Service Commission at the time.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): What qualifications in Ms. Marsman's resumé did she have for that job, in terms of working with government or anything along that line? What was her past experience?
MR. BARNET: I understood she worked at Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations at the time we hired her. She has a degree but I have not seen her resumé. That's not something that traditionally a minister would see and that's why there is that separation of how this occurs.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): But it is something a minister could find out.
MR. BARNET: Yes.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Obviously I'm looking for proof here that Ms. Marsman was qualified for the job. If, indeed, it was done, you're saying it was done in an open and transparent process, then if, indeed, she had the qualifications to fill the job that you had posted and that you were advertising for - I apologize, the program education officer - I keep forgetting the title of the job, but the exact job posting that was there, in Ms. Marsman's past what were her credentials? What were her qualifications for that job in particular?
[Page 510]
MR. BARNET: I mean you have to understand that in preparation for defence of estimates that I wouldn't have brought the resumés of all of the candidates who ever sought application or work in our office. What I can say to the member is that to the extent that it's available to the member, we will provide that information. We'll have to run it through the Public Service Commission and the privacy officers to ensure that we're not releasing information that legally we have no right to release.
I will ask our staff to provide that information to you, if it's something that you want to see.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): If it can be done, if it's at all possible, and certainly if it does not violate any privacy laws, then I would (Interruption) I thought I had the floor, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The honourable member does have the floor and he may carry on and go on.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If it doesn't violate any privacy laws, or whatever the case may be, I would appreciate the minister providing me with those details.
Obviously, and I'm not the first person - this is discussed back home - to suggest that there was politics at work here, that, indeed, the wife of a past Tory candidate was given a position (Interruption) You should try and temper the minister's little moods there, Mr. Chairman, before he slams doors.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I wouldn't mind, if I might just intervene as chairman, you've been on this line of questioning for some time and that's certainly your prerogative but you are certainly imputing motives here. The minister has been very clear that he was not aware that the allegation you are making, he didn't know the candidate, he wasn't involved in the fair hiring process, he did make that clear.
I would think that in the interest of recognizing that there are all honourable members in the House, that the member would step back a little bit from that type of allegation.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, in all due respect, I don't see how that would give the Minister of Energy the condolence of the chairman to slam the door in this Chamber on the way out because he's upset that I said he was talking and I deserved time on the floor. I think if you're going to chastise anyone, it should be the Minister of Energy for behaving like a child in this Chamber and slamming a door on the way out.
[Page 511]
[6:00 p.m.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think the honourable member should get back to the budget estimates . . .
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I'd be glad to.
MR. CHAIRMAN: . . . as we traditionally debate here in the Red Room and again, I ask the member to refrain . . .
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): That's where I was before the Minister of Energy slammed the door on his way out of the Chamber.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The member has been here a long time and he recognizes that we're all honourable members and the member went out and that door - I have myself on occasion, sometimes unintentionally closed the door and it does make a racket. Everybody knows that that door is a bit of a challenge here, I think even most of the Pages who are here all the time, and so do you, honourable member, you know that. Now why don't you get back to the budget estimates.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): The challenge, Mr. Chairman, may not be the door. Let me continue asking the . . .
MR. BARNET: I was concerned for a second that the member was referring to me as having an uneven temper.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Certainly not, Mr. Minister, I haven't seen you slam a door like the Minister of Energy did.
Let me just wrap this up, then, and we can move on to Health Promotion and Protection. Let me ask if the minister at any time since the hiring of Ms. Marsman, at any time have you thought, well, perhaps maybe we shouldn't have done that? Maybe we shouldn't have gone ahead and hired the wife of a defeated Tory candidate in this province to fill a position in Cape Breton. Maybe it does smack of politics and maybe there is something there that people are going to say perhaps it wasn't the right thing to do. Has that crossed your mind since all of this happened?
MR. BARNET: No, not at all. I think that the arm's-length approach to hiring individuals in this province is sufficient to guard against political interference. I don't believe there was political interference; I know there wasn't.
At the end of the day I have confidence in the staff that work for us at the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs. They do excellent work, all of them. I do have a copy or a list
[Page 512]
of the job description of the program administration officer. I'd be more than happy to read that into the record, it's not that long.
The Program Administration Officer reports to the CEO and is responsible for the administration and promotion of various government- and Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs-sponsored programs in the designated region of the province. The PAO provides research, planning and coordination of new and existing programs or initiatives, investigates and resolves complaints, oversees timely execution and resource allocation of programs/ projects throughout the designated region and advises or counsels members of the African Nova Scotian community regarding eligibility of existing programs.
The PAO determines appropriate resources for African Nova Scotian constituents, develops and maintains effective, positive and comprehensive communication linkage with members and organizers from and within the community, as well as government departments and agencies.
The PAO develops resources, implementation plans and accomplishes organizational goals by frequent contact with community stakeholders, government staff and, on occasion, administers and supervises the mediation of complaints between African Nova Scotian communities, organizations and government departments.
Mr. Chairman, I have every confidence that the person selected by my very competent staff to do that work is doing that work. I would be concerned if, after their considered advice, that someone chose to undo that advice simply because that person's husband happened to be involved with a political Party.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I have one last question on this matter, Mr. Chairman, and then I promise that I'll move on - well, I shouldn't promise but I will try to keep that promise anyway.
When you were provided with the recommendation from the interview panel . . .
MR. BARNET: I was not.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): You weren't provided with that?
MR. BARNET: No, staff do that. That wasn't the decision of the minister.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): No, you were provided with a name, were you? You were provided with the successful candidate?
[Page 513]
MR. BARNET: I believe the CEO makes that decision.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Was the CEO provided with one name or more than one name for the position?
MR. BARNET: He was on the interview panel and he makes that decision.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Okay, I understand that the CEO was on the interview panel and he was one of three panel members, but did the panel then provide you with one name of the successful candidate? Is that what you're saying?
MR. BARNET: Right.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): So the panel, as I understand it, interviewed eight people for that position . . .
MR. BARNET: Right.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): . . . and the panel chose . . .
MR. BARNET: One.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): . . . which included the CEO of your office, chose one successful candidate out of those eight candidates, is that correct?
MR. BARNET: That's correct.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would certainly allow for time for the Office of Health Promotion and Protection to set up because that's where I intend to use the remainder of my time.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister for Health Promotion and Protection has the floor, if he wants to make some opening comments. The MLA for Glace Bay is eager to hear those comments.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, I still have - how much time do I have remaining?
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have approximately three minutes.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): In the interest of fairness, I'll turn that time over to the minister.
[Page 514]
MR. BARNET: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to the member. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today about the Department of Health Promotion and Protection. We've done a great deal of work to help improve the health and safety of Nova Scotians. I am pleased to share some of those successes with you.
Mr. Chairman, I'd like to begin with our reduction in smoking rates. In the year 2001 Nova Scotia adopted a comprehensive tobacco strategy. This strategy included legislated protection against exposure to second-hand tobacco smoke in workplaces, bars, restaurants, patios, and now vehicles when children are present; community-based cessation and treatment programs; legislation to prevent tobacco companies from advertising and promoting their product at point of sale. As a result of this strategy, we have gone from worst to first, when it comes to tobacco reduction. In 2001 the overall smoking prevalence rate in Nova Scotia was 30 per cent. When measured in 2007, the rate dropped to 20 per cent.
Mr. Chairman, it is with great pride that I can sit before you and say that Nova Scotians now have the lowest youth smoking rates in Canada, at 12 per cent. It was not that long ago that we were ranked at the bottom of that list.
Mr. Chairman, another area of focus is in increased physical activity among Nova Scotians. The reality is that our children and youth are not as active as they should be. We have been tracking this trend through our PACY research. We are the only province in Canada to have conducted a population surveillance of objectively measured physical activity in children and youth. The PACY study covered approximately 2,300 students in Grades 3, 7 and 11. The first study was done in 2001 and then another was done in 2005.
Mr. Chairman, recently I was pleased to launch the renewed Active Kids, Healthy Kids strategy. This strategy aims to increase physical activity levels by 10 per cent by the year 2010. It's an ambitious goal and we have some work to do. When dealing with such a complex area, it is important to know what you are up against. We have done our research and know what the barriers to more physical activity are: costs for sport, which have been addressed through funding the KidSport program, which helps low-income children register for sport. With the passage of this budget, we will see our healthy living tax credit expand to include all Nova Scotians.
Equipment for sport. Mr. Chairman, we will continue to invest in our provincial sport organizations. Distance is another barrier. Our rural communities and citizens face long travel times to get to sport and recreation facilities. That is why we will invest a total of $98 million over the next 10 years to build or improve existing sport and recreation facilities across the province.
Mr. Chairman, some of the projects are already underway. We invested $5 million in the Region of Queens Municipality which will construct a new $20 million facility. We have also announced our commitment to the following areas: $1.2 million to the Town of
[Page 515]
Amherst for the renovation and expansion of the Amherst stadium; $600,000 to Highland District Soccer Association for a new multi-sport fieldhouse; $833,330 to the South Shore Fieldhouse Society for a new multi-sport field house; $300,000 to Bear River Sissiboo Trail Association for the construction of a multi-use trail in Digby County, I believe it is approximately 47 kilometres.
We have some others. Just today we announced for St. F.X. in Antigonish, track and field and lights and I think a surface, $700,000. As well, we announced last week $10 million towards a multi-sport facility in Bridgewater, Lunenburg County, towards a $30 million multi-sport facility. Mr. Chairman, we've also reached our initial commitment to build 500 kilometres of trail in Nova Scotia and have begun work on building another 500 kilometres of trail.
The PACY study has also helped us measure the dietary intake of children; physical activity and diet go hand in hand. We have found that eating habits of Canadian youth are poor. Mr. Chairman, we must ensure that our children have access to healthy foods and here's how we're helping: In partnership with the Department of Education we introduced the Nova Scotia school food and nutrition policy which bans all unhealthy snacks and deep-fried food and requires only 100 per cent fruit juice, water and milk be sold within our schools. We will continue to support our school breakfast programs to ensure all students get a nutritious start to their day.
Our pandemic planning continues with our partners at the Department of Health. We have released our updated pandemic plan and adopted an all-hazard approach to pandemic and other emergencies. We have built our capacity and expertise to handle all hazards, including pandemic, through two new responsibility centres at Health Promotion and Protection - Health Services Emergency Management and Population Health Assessment and Surveillance.
Mr. Chairman, we are also working to reduce gambling rates across Nova Scotia. The number of problem gamblers has remained relatively stable over the last five years. In 2003 our rate of severe gamblers was 0.8 per cent of the population and about 4.8 per cent at-risk gamblers. These numbers are consistent with provinces across the country. In response to these numbers we launched a toll-free, 24-hours-a-day, 7-days-a-week counselling line. We also launched two social marketing campaigns: yellowflag.ca and youarenotalone.ca, aimed at at-risk gamblers and problem gamblers, respectively.
Through both of these campaigns we are seeing a marked increase in people taking advantage of our counselling services or calling the problem gambling help line. Mr. Chairman, I thank you for the opportunity to share some of the great things we are doing to make Nova Scotia the healthiest and safest province in the country, and now I'm ready for more questions.
[Page 516]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. We'll move to the NDP caucus.
The honourable member for Dartmouth East.
MS. JOAN MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just to let you know that I will take the first half-hour and then my colleague, the honourable member for Dartmouth South-Portland Valley, will do the second half-hour.
Mr. Minister, you mentioned in your opening remarks, you were talking about the off-highway vehicle report and the regulations under that. I apologize, I didn't actually hear where you were putting some new trails but one of my questions was, how many new kilometres of trails have we built since we've been collecting the money through those regulations?
[6:15 p.m.]
MR. BARNET: Well, outside of the off-highway vehicle fund we committed to building 500 kilometres of new trail in the Province of Nova Scotia and we have done that. We've been collecting a fee from the registration of off-highway vehicles for the last year. We've made a number of funding announcements and will very shortly be making announcements valued at $750,000, as a result of advice that I'm receiving from the Minister's Advisory Committee.
To give you the total kilometres of those trails, I don't have that right now. Some of that money is development of new trails, some of it is redevelopment of existing trails, some of it is maintenance of existing trails, but it's all different. We've had community groups and organizations apply to that fund. Those applications were reviewed by the committee and all of the applications were brought forward to both myself and the Minister of Natural Resources. We signed off on those applications just last week and will be accepting the advice that we receive from that committee, but to give you a specific number of kilometres, I can't do that, but I know it's significant.
MS. MASSEY: So you said that you committed to 500 kilometres per year and that's been done - so far, that commitment has been made, fulfilled every year.
MR. BARNET: Has been made, yes, fulfilled. That's over and above, that's separate from the off-highway vehicle. There are two very specific, separate and different proposals. The off-highway vehicle fund is funded through registration of off-highway vehicles and that is not included in those 500 kilometres. That's a separate initiative.
MS. MASSEY: Leading into another question, Injury Free Nova Scotia. I'm not sure if that organization came out - I think they were around before the off-highway vehicle report
[Page 517]
came out because back then I was Critic for Environment and so I wasn't really sure on when they actually became an organization.
I have heard recently that the funding they receive, which I think is around $80,000 a year, may be pulled and actually sort of divided up into six separate departments within government, so that then they would have to sort of apply to each of these other six departments to receive their funding. Of course, then I would think you run the risk of - it's a smaller bit of money in each department which can easily be sort of lost in the shuffle, or what have you. Do you know anything about that?
MR. BARNET: No, I don't, I have not heard that.
MS. MASSEY: Do you work closely with that organization? I know they are into a lot of preventative issues.
MR. BARNET: We actually work with a number of stakeholders, they happen to be one of them. We have a person at Health Promotion and Protection - Julian Young - who has that responsibility, who takes it very seriously and tells me at least once a week that there's no such thing as an accident. I said to him, then what happens to the little kids in their pants, but anyway.
We do support a variety of groups and organizations. They often get me to do real fun things like put on helmets and race the chief of police on a tricycle and stuff like that, but it's all about bringing awareness to a very serious public health issue, and that is living in a safe environment and reducing injury.
MS. MASSEY: Well, I think they certainly serve a purpose in the province and I don't think anyone would probably want to see their funding disappear. I'm sure they would manage to work around whatever you ended up doing. For example, even the work with the off-highway vehicle regulations, you know, if you can stop three accidents on those; on a weekend, you know, if you had three ATV accidents come into the hospital, you're really using up a lot of resources and, like you say, it's a preventable accident, a lot of these things that happen. So I think that's what your department is all into is, you know, preventing these kinds of things. It all ties into those nice wait lists that we all hear about all the time.
MR. BARNET: Can I just respond to that.
MS. MASSEY: Yes, go ahead.
MR. BARNET: You are right. As I said, we do work with a variety of organizations around safety, as far as considering them as key stakeholders, Safety Nova Scotia, which used to be the Nova Scotia Safety Council - I think that's their new name - around issues like helmet safety, that kind of stuff, motorcycle safety and awareness. In fact, just last week there
[Page 518]
was the launch of Motorcycle Safety Awareness Month, May is traditionally the beginning of motorcycle season in Nova Scotia. They were here to bring awareness to motorcycle safety.
I had the great fortune of working with Canada's home and auto insurers and being named the honorary Chair of Operation Red Nose. Every Christmas I go over and work with that group and organization and have for the past couple of years, actually attend their events and participate in the work they do.
Child Safety Link, which is a safety organization hosted through the IWK, these are all good organizations with a lot of grassroots individuals who have a specific interest. We have worked with them and supported them and will continue to do so, because it is the right thing.
MS. MASSEY: Okay, thank you for that information. Your department is in charge of the vaccination program and you're putting - am I right or wrong?
MR. BARNET: You're right.
MS. MASSEY: I'm right on that one - Health Promotion, and health. I mean the odd thing about your department is if this department is doing everything right, in one way people never really know about it because you're preventing things from happening, which means that no one is going to hear that this thing did not happen, so it's kind of an oddity.
Anyway, I do have a question around the cost of those vaccines. I think it said in the budget that the federal government was going to allocate some money towards the school-based immunization program for girls in Grade 7. I guess my question is, I'm not sure what the time span is allotted for that amount of money, so if it's $2 million, what time span is that going to cover and what happens when the federal money runs out, because obviously there's going to be more and more . . .
MR. BARNET: You're referring to the human papilloma virus vaccine - Gardasil. We were, I believe, the first province in Canada to take advantage of the federal government's program to support funding for that initiative. What we did at the time was we actually rolled the program in with our existing school-based vaccination program. We consulted with the schools, we consulted with the professionals.
The Government of Canada provided us with multi-year funding, and in 2007-08 the funding was $1.4 million, in 2008-09 it was $2,024,000, and there will be additional resources for next year. It is a three-year program, much like other programs the Government of Canada has had in the past for vaccinations.
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MS. MASSEY: So if the money didn't flow, we would just cover it ourselves, is that what would happen in the end?
MR. BARNET: No, we'd yell and scream at the federal government and tell them to give us more money, and then we'd cover it ourselves.
MS. MASSEY: All right, I'm with you on that one. I just want to go back to . . .
MR. BARNET: Can I just add one more thing?
MS. MASSEY: Yes, go ahead.
MR. BARNET: It's easy for me to say this now because it's after the fact, but if the Government of Canada hadn't provided us with that money, my direction to our staff was to find it somewhere. We were going to do that, one way or the other. I think it's absolutely important, it's the right thing to do. I would have argued with my colleagues in Cabinet to fund that one way or the other because I think it is an incredible investment in the health of young women in our province.
MS. MASSEY: Good to hear that; I agree. The Canada Winter Games, you've got some funding available for that. I guess I'd just like to hear your comments on how we're going to go about bringing that event here, in a more open process. Can you assure people that that's going to be a very open process? I would hope there would be more up-front engagement with communities, I guess. I'm just looking for a little bit of feedback on what your department's thoughts are on that.
MR. BARNET: A couple of months ago, myself, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, the Honourable Peter MacKay, and the mayor, made a tripartite announcement where all levels of government committed substantial funding towards the hosting of the 2011 Canada Winter Games. We're the first province under a new funding formula that was agreed to by the Government of Canada and the provinces with respect to hosting these games. I would describe it as a more generous, fairer process that provides for greater opportunities for provinces and municipalities to host the kind of games that I believe are appropriate for Canada Games in the current climate.
In every jurisdiction where these games are held, I understand there is a host society that actually has the responsibility for establishing the operation of these games. In Nova Scotia we have a host society and they have begun meeting and have been meeting regularly and will continue to meet until the games finish their closing ceremony in the winter of 2011.
It will be their responsibility to act as the host and the proponent of the games on behalf of Nova Scotia, Halifax Regional Municipality and the Government of Canada. Their work has only just begun. The committee has recently been established and they have had
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seven or eight meetings and will continue to meet. They have a set of guidelines that they work through and they will work with the Canada Games Council, who will guide them along with our department, with the municipality and the Government of Canada.
MS. MASSEY: That sounds like more of a community-based way of doing things, which sounds like you're going down the right road.
MR. BARNET: It is the way it's done in all jurisdictions; I believe even P.E.I. has the same approach, yes.
MS. MASSEY: I guess I have some questions around some actual money questions in the budget. I'm just wondering if you can explain the - I believe there's a $1.5 million increase in administration costs, under Program Expenses in the budget for that department, in Section 15.4, I believe. That's what I've written down, but who knows?
MR. BARNET: That increase would cover additional leased costs, wage increases, annualizations. It would also increase our MHO vaccines in (Interruption) Vacancies, sorry, even the glasses don't help - our medical health officer vacancies in 2007 and 2008. It would also be offset by HR transfers from the Public Service Commission. So generally speaking, that's the line that would cover things like wages and leases and that kind of stuff increasing.
[6:30 p.m.]
MS. MASSEY: You mentioned medical health officer that wasn't filled last year, is that what happened, and now you're filling it so you need the money to fill that?
MR. BARNET: Right.
MS. MASSEY: I believe that it looks like there's approximately a $28 million increase in program spending since last year. Is that new spending or is it a transfer of public health funding from the Department of Health to your department?
MR. BARNET: It actually is a $21.1 million increase, which would see it as a transfer from the Department of Health to us, so that would balance out on a net basis as a transfer from the Department of Health.
MS. MASSEY: So what exactly are your plans for - I mean what would you be doing with that amount of money? The district health authorities will be spending that money? How are they required to spend that money, I guess, is what - it was spent in the Department of Health for certain programs and it's just really moved over to your department . . .
MR. BARNET: Exactly.
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MS. MASSEY: . . . and doing the same things, I guess.
MR. BARNET: They, essentially, would have the same responsibility to our department and would be doing the same thing.
MS. MASSEY: So basically the same things. Is there anything new that is going to be going on with any of that money?
MR. BARNET: Oh, yes, obviously we have our B-FIT program. We've increased that by $2 million. We were zero, then we went to $5 million, now we're at $7 million annually.
We have what we call the Rink Revitalization Program, which is $2 million, which provides a one-time grant to arenas. We have $140,000 for our Public Health Agency of Canada bilateral agreements; we have a municipal physical leadership increase of $227,000, again annualization for wages. We have an increase for Public Health, our district health authority-related costs, including annualizations of $298,000; we've increased the base funding by 7 per cent, to match the increase that occurred in the Department of Health; vaccine pressures that include $1.2 million; our provincial public health lab annualization of $184,000; our Panorama tangible capital asset project, which is $377,000. In Public Health, again, we have annualizations including wages of $882,000.
In our overall Health Promotion and Protection we see an increase in leases of $475,000; we have $12,000 that transferred in and transferred back out. We have $172,000 for our alcohol interlock initiative and, again, wages and incremental increases there, $248,000. So when you add all that stuff up . . .
MS. MASSEY: So those are sort of the new add-ons . . .
MR. BARNET: Right.
MS. MASSEY: . . . when that money came across.
MR. BARNET: Our additions to our budget, plus the grossing of the numbers that came over from the Department of Health . . .
MS. MASSEY: And those aren't actually listed in the big budget documents, are they, that list you're just reading to me? Can I get a copy of those? Instead, I was scribbling them down really fast.
MR. BARNET: Sure, yes.
MS. MASSEY: Okay, that would be great.
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How much is your department allotted for pandemic planning this year?
MR. BARNET: It would be very difficult to answer that because it is imbedded within our department. It would have people throughout our department who would have responsibility. It's not the kind of thing that you could actually extrapolate out of the department. It would be included in all of those increases and many of those increases are annualizations. It would be very difficult for us to do that because it really is imbedded in what we do as a department.
MS. MASSEY: At this time I want to go on to something that you mentioned in your opening remarks about the reduction in smoking rates. I know we've talked about this before, we might be into a debate here now, though. You mentioned that in 2001, 30 per cent of our population overall were smoking, and then it has dropped down in 2007 to 20 per cent overall smoking rates and that the youth smoking rate now is 12 per cent.
I know we've debated this because of a bill that I've tabled in regard to a youth smoking product which is called cigarillos. The loophole here is that cigarillos are actually considered a cigar and those numbers aren't added into the smoking statistics. So if you actually added in those numbers in Atlantic Canada for cigars on top of smoking cigarettes, that smoking rate would be somewhere up around almost 19 per cent. So I don't believe that the smoking rate is down at 12 per cent, I think that smoking cigarettes, yes, 12 per cent, but if you add in the amount of cigars, these small cigars that are being smoked by youth mostly between the ages of 15 and 19, I think those rates would be higher. So I just wanted to get your comments on that.
MR. BARNET: As I've indicated to the member in the past, we have measured from three different sources, in terms of how we determine our smoking rates in the Province of Nova Scotia. We use the information that comes from the Public Health Agency of Canada, their tobacco monitoring surveillance information. We also use our data that we receive from students in Nova Scotia who self-report to us - the first one is the public health tobacco surveillance survey, the second one is the Statistics Canada survey, and the third one is our own monitoring of the students. We believe the numbers we have are accurate and right.
The important thing is that regardless of what is in and what is out, we are able to measure it with a base that we've had significant improvement. Although I share the member's concerns with respect to flavoured cigarillos, or whatever they're called, as I've expressed to the member before and will continue to express, I believe credit to our success goes to the fact that we used a strategic approach to reducing our smoking rates.
We developed a strategy, we developed healthy public policy, we put in place programs that would help people who needed our help, that included both nicotine replacement therapy and counselling. We introduced some very significant and ground-breaking social marketing campaigns. We worked very closely with our stakeholders; in fact,
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some of our stakeholders have become our staff and work for us at the Department of Health Promotion and Protection and have helped guide me and the province as we further develop our healthy public policy.
The statistics that we use are the same ones that others use and have shown that a strategic approach to reducing the prevalence of tobacco in our society has worked. As I've expressed to the member before, we are in the process of redeveloping that strategy, of renewing that strategy. That work will be completed throughout the summer and maybe even earlier than that, and we will launch a renewed strategy as it relates to our tobacco control initiative.
With respect to the concern the member raises around flavoured cigarillos, I have written to the Minister of Health, the Honourable Tony Clement, as recently as a couple of weeks ago or a week ago. I asked him, and I'll read the letter into the record:
The Nova Scotia Department of Health Promotion and Protection has been receiving on a regular basis concerns from parents about the use of little cigars, or cigarillos, by their children. Parents often remark that the fact that they are sold individually and contain flavourings of various kinds has been a key part of their attraction to youth.
Despite our province's efforts to prevent the sale and promotion of these kinds of products to children, little-cigar use by youth appears to be high, according to data provided by the most recent sample of the Canadian Tobacco Use Monitoring Survey - and that's the survey I spoke to - in the first part of 2007, nearly 33 per cent of the youth from 15 to 19 years of age had tried the little cigars; furthermore, nearly 12 per cent of the youth had tried little cigars in the past 30 days.
In order to prevent further erosion of our collective efforts, national action on reducing the attraction of these products to youth is key. Given Health Canada's regulatory authority, we ask you to consider eliminating the flavours contained in these products, as well as ensure that little cigars are packaged in a manner consistent with other tobacco products, such as cigarettes. Combined federal-provincial-territorial municipal action on tobacco use has been a key factor in reducing tobacco use in Nova Scotia and across Canada. Health Canada's leadership on the little cigars will enhance our respective and collective efforts to prevent tobacco use. Thank you for your consideration.
Now, I have not received a reply to that yet, I expect to receive one shortly. As I've expressed to the member, we all have our respective jurisdictions. I'll wait to see what the
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minister replies back and, based on that reply, that may form part of our renewed tobacco strategy and we'll see where we go.
MS. MASSEY: So you're saying that perhaps in the future tobacco strategy you may be making the sale of, let's say candy-flavoured cigarillos illegal in Nova Scotia, but right now you're leaving that in the hands of the federal government, instead of doing something about it here in the province? That's the way I understand what you're saying.
The second part of my question is - and this is my last question before I turn it over - when you talk about smoking rates, the numbers that are put into those smoking rates, what you're adding up is cigarettes, not cigars, and I'll keep going back to the point that cigars are not included in those smoking rates.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, your half-hour, if you were going to allow your colleague to have a half-hour, that half-hour is up, the first half-hour - it's up to you.
MS. MASSEY: Well, if the minister has a reply, I can wait half a minute or so for the reply on those two questions and then I'm done. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
MR. BARNET: The standard methodology that has been used by all provinces in the country is what we used. You're correct that that's not included but, at the end of the day, the important point is that we were able to identify that we've seen a significant reduction in cigarette smoke as a result of that particular survey. As well, I would point out that the other processes we've used to monitor have also concluded the same thing.
You know, I don't for a second believe that we've solved this issue and, if I did, I wouldn't be asking my staff to do a renewed strategy but I can tell you one thing, we've gone further than anybody else has and we've done more than every other jurisdiction has. We've done more to protect Nova Scotians than every jurisdiction in this country and I am proud of that.
[6:45 p.m.]
When we moved forward with our Healthy Public Policy around our power walls, or advertising at the point-of-sale, we went out to the other jurisdictions and we asked them, if they had to do it all over again, what would they do? How would they make their laws stronger to provide the greatest level of protection they possibly could? Our laws, I believe, are the strongest laws in the country. I can tell you, we had a great deal of interest in what we're doing when we presented in Scotland a couple of weeks ago.
I think we've come a long way but we still have people who are trying cigarettes and, in my mind, we have more work to do and we will do that work.
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MS. MASSEY: Thank you for all of your answers and listening to my questions.
MR. BARNET: You're welcome.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Dartmouth South-Portland Valley.
MS. MARILYN MORE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Minister, as you probably realize, I'm here in my capacity as the NDP Critic for the Voluntary Sector, so my questions are going to revolve around those issues.
I wanted to start by asking for a breakdown of the budget figures. I couldn't find anything in the budget itself. Is there a budget line in the budget that perhaps I missed for the work you're doing as the Minister of Volunteerism?
MR. BARNET: No, there isn't. It is imbedded within what we do, other than to say that in addition to that imbedded funding, we did budget this year an amount of money - $775,000 - for our insurance program which is an initiative of our volunteer division.
MS. MORE: Is that the trails?
MR. BARNET: No, we're already doing that. This is a program to support insurance for volunteer groups and organizations. They've raised that as one of their key issues when we've been out doing our consultation. We've been developing this for some time. We've worked closely with other government departments, including Transportation and Public Works. We have set aside $775,000 to get this program up and running.
MS. MORE: I'm sorry, what was the figure again, sir?
MR. BARNET: It's $775,000, and I can give you a breakdown if you'd like.
MS. MORE: I wonder if it would be possible to get a copy of that page, rather than take down all the figures?
MR. BARNET: Yes, it shouldn't be a problem.
MS. MORE: So perhaps I could ask, how much is set aside for staffing? I believe there's a . . .
MR. BARNET: On the insurance issue or on the whole thing?
MS. MORE: No, for the voluntary sector, I believe there's approximately 1.5 positions.
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MR. BARNET: We do. Our Volunteerism Program is $173,900.
MS. MORE: Now, I understand there was a recommendation from your consultation with the voluntary sector in regard to the Volunteer Community Advisory Council?
MR. BARNET: Right.
MS. MORE: And they were suggesting that their first-year budget should be approximately $11,000. What actually was put in the budget to support the work of the advisory council?
MR. BARNET: Mr. Chairman . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: The minister's microphone is not working.
MR. BARNET: Sorry about that. I'd like you to repeat that for me so I know I'm answering the right question.
MS. MORE: Okay. I have a copy of a report, Recommendation . . .
MR. BARNET: The what?
MS. MORE: Recommendation to the Volunteerism Interdepartmental Coordinating Committee, about the implementation of the new advisory council. In that report there was a recommendation suggesting that for the first year of operation, which they have down as 2007-08, that $11,000 be assigned to support the activities of the advisory council. I guess I'm trying to find out, has any money been set aside for the operation of the advisory council, last year and in this current budget?
MR. BARNET: The council has just begun to meet. In fact, I think they've had only one meeting so far. Those funds would be imbedded within our funds. Within our funding envelope we have grants and contributions but it really would be difficult to extrapolate that. But we're committed to covering the cost to operate that particular advisory committee, on behalf of our departments.
MS. MORE: Okay, perhaps I could make a suggestion for another year. I'm not sure what you call the activities evolving from your role as Minister of Volunteerism - I don't know whether it's a division, it's not a department obviously because it doesn't have a deputy. I'm just wondering, though, in the future years if the costs of those activities could at least have its own budget line because it's very difficult to understand the level of operation of those programs and services and the level of support without having an independent, separate budget. So perhaps I'll leave that line of questioning but I'm just suggesting that it would be good to pull out those supports for another year in the budget.
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I'm a little concerned, and I believe I raised it this time last year as well, about the confusion between volunteerism and the voluntary sector. I understand that you are the Minister of Volunteerism and my critic area is for the voluntary sector. When the Volunteer 2000 report was done back in the early 1990s, they had a definition for volunteerism in that report that I'd like to just read to you. That task force defined volunteerism as: The spirit of community demonstrated by those who, without pay and of their own free will, actively contribute their time, talent and resources with resulting benefit and enrichment of the community.
So, for example, someone - that could cover what I call the informal volunteers. So if you're a good neighbour, if you go across the street and shovel a senior's driveway, you would certainly come under that definition of volunteerism. My concern is that the voluntary sector is a much broader sector in Nova Scotia; in fact, it makes up 5.7 per cent of the Nova Scotia labour force. We have 2,300 voluntary sector organizations in Nova Scotia with paid staff and that's over 24,000 individuals in this province who work in the voluntary sector. So that's similar to the number of people in the construction trade and it's more than the number of federal public servants in Nova Scotia. So it's a huge sector and it has amazing impact on the delivery of services, especially for government, in this province.
I'm just wondering what kind of direction is being given to both your interdepartmental coordinating committee and your advisory council to be looking at not just the supports for individual volunteers, but at the health of a broad sector of activity that is actually providing critical services in Nova Scotia.
MR. BARNET: I'm going to answer it this way. I don't think you can do one without the other. I think that in addition to the people you talked about on the street helping the neighbours, you also need an organized sector. We'll continue to work with all stakeholders to ensure that Nova Scotia is able to take full advantage of the opportunities that people provide us, by providing their time free of charge to Nova Scotians in a variety of manners.
Whether I call myself the Minister Responsible for Volunteers or Volunteerism, as far as I'm concerned it's all about helping Nova Scotians who help Nova Scotians. Through our advisory committee, I will continue to receive and accept advice and move forward with public policy, as is necessary, to support those people who want to support Nova Scotians.
MS. MORE: Well, Mr. Minister, over 15 years ago when the recommendations from that Volunteer 2000 Task Force came into government - and I mean it was set up by government at that time - there were some very serious issues identified in that report. As you know, and I remind you on a regular basis, I actually come from the voluntary sector so this is something that is very important to me. I would suggest that the voluntary sector in Nova Scotia is probably reaching a crisis stage. I'm just wondering if government has a clear sense that we have to fast-track some of the solutions to these problems, that we can't sit back and take a relaxed attitude about it.
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There are some serious issues affecting the human resources part of it, the insurance funding; these are serious issues and a lot of voluntary sector organizations are starting to go under or disband and I'm not sure that government has the resources to take up the slack. So do you feel there is some sense of urgency around finding solutions for these issues?
MR. BARNET: Look, I would not describe it as a crisis, I think that's hyperbolic. I would say that we have identified a number of areas where the volunteer groups and organizations have brought concerns to us and we have begun the process of putting in place solutions and resolutions.
I spoke specifically earlier about one such initiative. It's been brought to our attention that there is an issue around the availability and the affordability of insurance for volunteer groups and organizations. So that's why our government has increased our budget allotment by $775,000, to develop a program that will start in the later part of this year, that will provide an opportunity for groups and organizations to take advantage of a government-funded group insurance plan that will provide an opportunity for them to take advantage of that, that I think will resolve that particular issue. As issues and concerns are raised, we will address them.
I also believe that there is concern around volunteer burnout; there is concern around the number of people volunteering and we will work with groups and organizations to help address those things the best we can, as a government. I know, as somebody who is involved with probably maybe 10 or 12 volunteer groups myself - in a variety of capacities now, currently, and who has been involved with maybe 40 or 50 different volunteer groups over my lifetime, or maybe more - that it seems as if when you go to a meeting for this or a meeting for that, you see the same people. It's been an issue for a long time, and we will work with groups and organizations to help foster and develop additional volunteers for Nova Scotia so that we can continue to do the kind of work that is necessary to make our province a great province.
[7:00 p.m.]
I want to say this, that I'm extremely proud to live in a province where one in four people volunteers in one way, shape or form, where the economic value of volunteers has been measured at over $2 billion. I think we're the highest in the country in terms of percentage of volunteers. We affect and impact every element of life and being in this province. We do it in a great way, it's imbedded in our culture. It's not what we are or who we are, it is Nova Scotia and, as a government, I'm proud of the fact that we've been able to have a ministerial responsibility directed at that so that we can address these issues as they're brought forward and as we identify them. Our committee will help, this program will help, and the work that we do in the future will help.
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MS. MORE: Well, you raise two issues, both of which I'd like to pursue. One is the degree of volunteerism and I agree with you that we have one of the highest rates in Canada but unfortunately, GPI Atlantic and Statistics Canada have indicated that fewer volunteers are doing more hours and fewer donors are providing the bulk of the donations and contributions, outside the government funding and grants. So that adds a whole level of vulnerability to our volunteer sector because any impact on the remaining people who are doing the volunteering and providing the funding, for example, the aging trends in our province could have a significant impact on those numbers and the amount of work that they do. I'd like to get back to ask you if you have any more details about this insurance plan. It sounds as though it is somewhat developed and I'm wondering, have you had a chance to run the proposed insurance model by the new advisory council for their input and response?
MR. BARNET: No. I missed part of what you said there but I'll say this, our committee has only just begun. In response to your earlier question about the amount of funds that were set aside for the committee, I was able to ascertain through staff, while we were answering the other questions, how much money we've actually set aside, and I believe it's $15,000 for the operation of that committee. But I'll say this, that if we find ourselves in a position where the committee is not able to complete its work throughout the year, we'll make sure that there are resources there. I don't care if it's $11,000 as you request, or $15,000 as we've given, we need to do the work and the committee is going to be an important part. But to speak specifically to the insurance program, we still have to engage the insurance industry, which is an important and key stakeholder in this. We are in the process of doing that.
Initially, the program would see two full-time equivalent individuals at Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal; it would see three folks at Justice, one a claims officer and two FTEs at Justice, I believe. We would have office expenses, we would have communications, an outreach program, loss control, there'd be claims management implementation, we'd have to have a commercial insurance person front it on our behalf, similar to the program we have now with vehicles and other things. There would be annual actuarial costs, an annual claims budget.
We've done a great deal of work developing this at the staff level. In addition to that, one of those people would be somebody who would - and I've described it this way - try to demystify the insurance industry for groups and organizations. Often what we find is that people think they have a problem but don't, or think they need insurance but may not.
In addition to that, one of the things that has been brought to our attention and we took steps to resolve, is the issue of insurance certificates for schools. School boards have been asking groups and organizations to provide insurance certificates when they utilize our school program. With the passage of this budget, there will be a mechanism in place to eliminate that, make it not necessary, so that when people use our schools they won't have to have that insurance certificate. We intend to utilize an existing insurance program to cover
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the cost of that. So this is just one element - I mean it was the number-one thing that was brought to our attention but it's one way that we can resolve this.
This is a partial-year approach. We're not going to have this up and running on the day the budget passes. So some of the FTEs that I've talked about are portions of FTEs partway through the year. So as the program - as we finish our work consulting with the industry, developing the program, it will be ramped up over a period of time to a point where it will be fully operational. My guess is that $775,000 probably only represents about half a year, or maybe less than that, of actual program expenses.
MS. MORE: So what model are you using? Is that the self-insurance model?
MR. BARNET: It's difficult to describe but it'll be similar to our off-highway vehicle program or trails program, where there'll be a premium, there'll be an amount of money that we will use to be able to draw claims from and then an amount over and above that for those larger claims. So it will be a hybrid of self-insurance and insurance.
MS. MORE: Okay, because I think the trails program came with insurance providers, so is that the same model you're going to use with the voluntary sector?
MR. BARNET: Yes, and it is a hybrid of a self-insurance and an underwriter for those larger claims.
MS. MORE: Well, it's laudable. I think your goal is very important and I appreciate the fact that you want to consult with the insurance industry but I guess I'm suggesting that you certainly need to consult with the voluntary sector, to make sure that what you're proposing meets their needs. Obviously if you've brought together this new advisory council, that would be a good way to start. I believe their next meeting is in June and I'm hoping that that topic might be a priority discussion item on their agenda because I think any service provider, whether it's government or community-based organizations, one of the first lessons you learn is that you can't go out and assume you know what will meet the needs of people in the community, including organizations, without discussing it with them.
Certainly there is expertise in the voluntary sector. Dawn Stegen, for example, from Recreation Nova Scotia, served on the Atlantic task force and their organization, Recreation Nova Scotia, has an umbrella insurance program for recreation-based organizations. So I do agree that simplifying some of the terms and the myths around insurance is important, but I do think there are some resource people in the sector who should be involved at that level of planning and development.
I wanted to ask, Minister . . .
MR. BARNET: Just to . . .
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MS. MORE: Yes.
MR. BARNET: Dawn is on our advisory committee, as well, and we do provide funding to Recreation Nova Scotia to help fund their programs - I think it's $98,000 a year. It would be unfair to characterize us as not having consulted in the development of this because, in fact, that's how we were able to determine this is the number-one priority of the volunteer groups and organizations. We have consulted and we've done a great deal of work.
We had a symposium in Debert a year or so ago, or nine months ago, I'm not sure when. This isn't stuff that we just kind of waved a little magic wand and said, poof, we're going to have an insurance program because we think it's the right thing to do. We did it because it came out of consultations and out of an understanding from community groups and organizations. All members of the Legislature hear from their groups and organizations and bring those issues back to government, including government members. That's why we're here.
MS. MORE: I'm not suggesting that the priority and the need didn't come out of your consultations with the voluntary sector. I guess what I'm suggesting is that when you're looking at details like risk management and what activities are going to be covered, those kinds of decisions need to be done in consultation with the sector because if it doesn't meet their needs and they can't fulfill their mandates and they have to cancel programs in order to meet the criteria for the new insurance program, those trade-offs may not be acceptable to everybody.
MR. BARNET: There's no point in developing a program that doesn't resolve the issues that the volunteer sector has. I can tell you that we have a great deal of expertise in Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal. Bruce Langille, our resident expert, provides us with great advice and we have no intention of moving forward with a program that has no utility or use. At the end of the day, we're about resolving an issue. We have committed, through this budget, a significant amount of money to help us do that and with the passage of this budget and the support of all Parties, we'll be able to move forward.
I look forward to Thursday, when we vote on this, and we'll be able to move forward with a program that many, many Nova Scotians have brought to our attention through our consultation program and through discussions with their own MLAs. I'll be very proud of the fact that we'll have a program, the first of its kind in the country.
MS. MORE: All I'm suggesting is that before you finalize the framework in the process, I would encourage you to consult with the sector to make sure that you're meeting their full needs.
The last question I want to ask is around labour market agreements, the devolution from federal to provincial government. I understand that depending on the way it's done and
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the criteria used in the provinces, in some provinces this has had a tremendously negative impact on the voluntary sector. I understand, for example, that in New Brunswick it impacted on possibly up to one-third of their voluntary sector organizations. I'm just wondering, has there been any discussion with the voluntary sector in Nova Scotia as to how that devolution is happening and what the impact might be? Is this something that could be raised with both your interdepartmental coordinating committee and also the advisory council, to minimize any negative impacts?
MR. BARNET: Well, I'll say that this is being led by our Minister of Economic Development and I specifically have had conversations with him around that. I'm unaware of any concerns that have been brought to - no one has brought any concerns to my attention with respect to that. I have no idea what they're concerned about in New Brunswick, but I can tell you that those discussions are still underway.
MS. MORE: Well, for example, if . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The time allotted for the NDP has expired.
The honourable member for Glace Bay.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If the minister wishes to have what is affectionately known around here as a "Baker break" he can take it now. Certainly I don't mind, and he can use our time if the minister wishes.
MR. BARNET: Yes, good idea, great. Thank you.
[7:13 p.m. The subcommittee recessed.]
[7:18 p.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: I call the Subcommittee of the Whole House on Supply back to order.
The honourable member for Glace Bay, you have until 8:05 p.m.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me start by asking the minister some questions about Programs spending in Health Promotion and Protection. According to the estimates on Page 15.2, the Programs budget is being decreased by $3.19 million. I'd like to know what specific programs are being cut in this year's budget.
MR. BARNET: The question you're referring to is related to transfers. It's not a cut, it's actually a transfer of district health authorities funding, so there's no net reduction.
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MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): There's no decrease?
MR. BARNET: No. In fact, when you look at the bottom line, they've actually - there have been increases. So there is no net reduction.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Last year the department's Programs budget was over, was it not, by close to $11 million, is that correct?
MR. BARNET: Our overall budget?
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Yes, the Programs budget last year.
MR. BARNET: That would actually be our capital grants. I know what you're referring to now. It would just be related to our capital grants to other organizations, I think is what you're referring to.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Well, let me give you the opportunity for a breakdown there for the Programs budget. How much money is going into what program?
MR. BARNET: Let's do it this way. For administration, last year we had $5.961 million, this year we have $6.226 million; for addictions, problem gambling and problem drinking, last year we had $3.5 million, this year we have $3.8 million, approximately; for chronic disease and prevention, last year we had $3.1 million, this year we have $3.162 million; for communicable disease and prevention, last year we had $7.748 million and this year we have $11.597 million.
Our district health authorities funding last year was $12.779 million, this year that has been transferred to district health so it shows up as zero. Our emergency preparedness, last year was $196,000, this year is $221,000; environmental health last year was $486,000, this year is $632,000. Healthy development last year, $5.169 million, this year is $5.294 million. Our physical activity last year, $18.272 million, this year, $22.879 million. Our population health assessment surveillance last year, $1.257 million and this year, $1.723 million; volunteerism last year, $130,000, this year, $173,000. Transfers to district health authorities - remember earlier how I said district health authority funding? - there was nothing in last year's line item and this year we have $31.833 million so that might explain it. So in every case there's an increase.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): So you're telling me the overall budget has not decreased, it has actually increased?
MR. BARNET: Exactly.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): By how much?
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MR. BARNET: Well, $58.619 million to $87.526 million. So every line item has increased, except in those cases where it is transfers to district health authorities, the net change is - on that particular line last year we had $12.797 million, there's nothing that shows up this year. Down at the bottom we show a zero for last year and $33.833 million for this year. So the net difference is a $28.908 million increase.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): In particular in the B-FIT program, there was a press release from the Department of Health Promotion and Protection on May 6th of this year, where the department announced a $10 million investment in sport infrastructure in Bridgewater. In the last paragraph in that press release it stated that, "The province's B-FIT program will invest $50-million over 10 years in the construction of sport and recreation infrastructure. This is in addition to the $3-million invested annually in recreation facility development grants." But in this year's business plan it states that the 10-year total is going to be $68 million. So what number there is correct? Is it the $68 million or is it the $50 million?
MR. BARNET: Well, with the passage of this budget, it'll be the - it's an additional $2 million per year over the next 10 years. So with the passage of this budget, the larger number will be the number. When you combine our B-FIT with our recreation facility development grants, the two of them together, it's $98 million over 10 years, so this budget has a $2 million increase and envisions that increase to continue over the next decade.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): So the $68 million number is correct, with the passage of this budget.
MR. BARNET: That's right.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Has your department been receiving requests for support for new facilities and upgrades?
MR. BARNET: Oh, yes.(Laughter)
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I think that's probably an understatement.
MR. BARNET: It is.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): If so, how many and from where? Can you give us some examples?
MR. BARNET: Yes. We've announced a number of them but let me give you some examples of communities that are in a variety of states and stages: East Hants, for example, are looking at an expansion to their facility in Lantz; we have announced just today, St. F.X., a contribution towards their field at St. F.X.; Ski Ben Eoin in Cape Breton; Cape Breton
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University, multi-purpose sport facility. I'm trying to work my way around the province. There are lots of them and they're everywhere. The smaller ones, the RFD programs, there are over 100. So on the smaller ones there are over 100 and the larger ones, they're more regional in scope, but they include everything from support to the ski operation at Ben Eoin, some that are in a variety of stages.
I know in Antigonish County there's a group that is working on developing a proposal there at Keppoch Mountain to turn it into a regional outdoor adventure/exercise facility. They are at a stage where they presented to their municipal councils and are now starting to look at a business plan and that kind of stuff. They are literally from concept to reality at this stage with that program. The concept would be ones like - I know there's a variety of different groups that are talking about infrastructure in and around Halifax, to reality. We can talk about our contribution to Trenton, their regional indoor soccer facility, the field house in that Trenton-Stellarton area where they're actually in that facility now and it's up and running. So there's one that didn't exist a year ago but, with our B-FIT funding, now is operational.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): So is it fair of me to say that you've had requests for funding, support for new facilities, from right across the province?
MR. BARNET: Right across the province.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): How does your department select which communities are going to receive funding and which ones will not receive funding?
MR. BARNET: Well, we provide groups and organizations and municipalities with planning assistance grants that enable them to do the legwork in advance that would then provide the documentation to support or not support an application.
We've also provided funding to municipalities and groups and organizations to do an analysis of their existing infrastructure. We've done an analysis of all the arenas and we've met with stakeholders to understand where there are deficiencies in infrastructure. So it's through those things that help us determine what's the best use of taxpayers' dollars.
We recognize, as well, that this is a longer-term vision than just a simple budget year to budget year. That's why when we announced this program last year, we announced it as a multi-year, 10-year program and we've enhanced it from $5 million to $7 million over the life of those 10 years, now $68 million in provincial contribution, in recognition of the fact that there is a great deal of work to do and it's not all going to happen at once. Some projects will move faster than others and it's our hope that we will be able to provide for that infrastructure gap that exists in the Province of Nova Scotia, bearing in mind that $68 million is what we consider our third, there are two other thirds that go along with that, either from
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the community, municipalities or other levels of government, and that will help us as we fund these projects.
[7:30 p.m.]
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): You gave me a sampling of some of the areas but in the past week or so - I will give the minister credit, we have seen some significant contributions towards recreational infrastructure, we have. Last week the Premier and the minister were down in Bridgewater and you announced a $10 million investment for the Lunenburg County Lifestyle Centre down there. I don't know if you were making - when you made reference to Antigonish County, you said an announcement there, I don't know if you were referring to the $700,000 investment in Antigonish for a new field and track - I take it that was at St. F.X., is that correct?
MR. BARNET: Correct.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): For St. F.X. University in Antigonish, and you mentioned Ben Eoin and you mentioned Keppoch Mountain and so on. Now, I don't mean to start a rumble here or anything but does the minister find it more than a coincidence that all of those are in Tory ridings?
MR. BARNET: I wouldn't necessarily agree that the announcements that we've made are all in Tory ridings. In fact, what you've picked as the last three, only two of those have been announced. I've not announced anything for Ben Eoin or Keppoch. I described those as projects in a variety of states. The only two that were announced were the St. F.X. project . . .
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): The last time I checked, that was in a riding held by a Progressive Conservative MLA.
MR. BARNET: Absolutely, and St. F.X. serves the entire province. The other one is the Lunenburg riding and you are correct, that currently the sitting members there are Progressive Conservative members. But I would remind you that we've also made a number of other announcements, including a significant contribution to the Sissiboo Trail, $300,000-some, which is in the riding of your Leader, I believe.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): That would be Annapolis?
MR. BARNET: I believe it is. Yes, I think it actually transcends between Annapolis and Digby and it's a very significant piece of infrastructure and part of our trail network.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): It's not as significant as $10 million, Mr. Minister.
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MR. BARNET: Well, it's significant as far as 47 kilometres of trail over top of the Sissiboo River and it's a mixed-use trail and it's very important to the constituents of that particular area. But more importantly than that - I shouldn't say more importantly - in addition to that, we also announced a $5 million contribution towards a $20 million multi-purpose facility in Queens County, which was only announced a couple of months ago, the first significant announcement under B-FIT, but we've also announced - I mean I don't want to go down the list and say "government riding, non-government riding, government riding, non-government riding". I will say this, that we're anticipating a very significant announcement in the near future in the Halifax area that I think will be significant for constituents in the Halifax Fairview and Halifax Clayton Park areas.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I'm glad to hear that and I'm sure I did mean to inform the chairman that the member for Halifax Clayton Park would be here to ask some questions shortly. I want to get back to this. Let me ask you, those investments that you're talking about, are they solely based on the B-FIT program or is there money there that's being taken from the grants and contributions to pay for some or all of that cost?
MR. BARNET: Those ones that I spoke about were B-FIT announcements.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): They all came from the B-FIT program, is that correct?
MR. BARNET: Yes. We have two programs: our Recreation Facility Development Program for smaller announcements, smaller projects, and our Building Facilities and Infrastructure Together program is for those larger scale projects.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): So what you're telling me - and we had a discussion earlier about what I would term political involvement in some or, in your case, you denied it, but what I tried to say was some political involvement in hiring. In this case you're telling me that there's no political involvement whatsoever when your department and yourself make a decision regarding what infrastructure is going to go into what riding in this province - it's based on what? You're telling me there's no political involvement in that whatsoever.
MR. BARNET: What I'm telling you is that the announcements that we've made to date and the announcements that will come in the future are based on meeting Nova Scotia's greatest need. As well, we also consider the ability of the individuals' applications to move forward with those applications in a timely manner. Some of them have their money and they're ready to go.
I can point to a very specific announcement; we recently announced a contribution towards the curling club in the Town of Windsor. The curling club burned down, they were able to secure their two-thirds funding through an insurance claim. They were ready to roll,
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we're ready to roll. We provide them the funding, they're able to move forward with the development of that particular facility, and hopefully not see a lost curling season for members of that club and the town and the surrounding county of West Hants.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): The majority of the projects that have been funded to date, have you done an analysis as to where they were located and whether they were in non-Tory or Tory ridings?
MR. BARNET: No, I haven't, it doesn't concern me.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Would you have any indication of whether or not they were?
MR. BARNET: As I said, it doesn't concern me.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Would you be surprised to find out that the majority of them are in Tory ridings?
MR. BARNET: Again, it really doesn't concern me. My greatest concern is about meeting Nova Scotians' greatest needs. I can tell you that the applicants who brought forward the projects are very pleased we've been able to make these announcements. At the end of the day, it's about making Nova Scotia the healthiest and safest province in the country, providing opportunities for people to have places where they can be physically active. It's a commitment of our government and one that I'm very proud of.
I continue to encourage the other levels of government - the municipalities and the federal government - to support these kinds of investments so that we can reach that goal of becoming the healthiest and safest province in the country. It concerns me little about who currently holds which political district. The important thing is that we provide opportunities for people to live a healthy, active lifestyle.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): So, if you were to go through that list and the majority of those projects that are being funded just happen to be in a Tory riding, that would be nothing more than an absolute coincidence as far as you're concerned.
MR. BARNET: My guess is that those happened to be the ones who applied. Now, if you have information where people have applied and for some reason have been denied . . .
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): You're suggesting that people in non-Tory ridings don't apply?
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MR. BARNET: No, I'm just saying that happens to be the case in this case. It's incorrect and unfair to try to describe this program as being political. It's about meeting Nova Scotia's greatest needs. At our department we've done a great deal of work working with municipalities and other partners, to ensure that those needs are met.
I can tell the honourable member that I have announced projects either through B- FIT or the Recreation Facility Development Program, in every single riding in this province - every single riding in this province - including the honourable member's own riding.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): So all 52 ridings have benefited from that program?
MR. BARNET: From B-FIT or RFD, every single riding has benefited from B-FIT or RFD, absolutely. If the member would like, I can get him a list of the projects approved in his riding.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I'd be more than pleased to see the list for the entire province, as a matter of fact, to see exactly where the money has been allocated.
For instance, you gave me the figure that the total figure would be $68 million if this year's budget is approved for the program. Wouldn't a $10 million facility in Bridgewater take up a pretty good piece of that funding? You said $68 million - that's over 10 years, right? So one program, you've given $10 million to in one shot. That's a pretty big chunk of that budget, isn't it?
MR. BARNET: Well, we don't expect that there'll be projects of that scale and scope in every single community in the province. With many of these projects, including that one, we expect that there'll be multiple construction years, so they'll be funded over a period of maybe three or four years.
At the end of the day, it's about doing the best you can with the money that you have. In fact, before I became the minister, there was no money in any budget line item for this kind of infrastructure and now there is, and it's something I'm extremely proud of.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): What I'm saying, though, is that based on your budget over a 10-year period, then if four or five more projects come along and they're valued at $10 million, your budget is shot, your budget is gone. But you're saying if the project is worthwhile then, if it's feasible, that no matter the cost you would certainly entertain it. That $10 million in Bridgewater's case didn't seem to be a problem and you were there fairly soon to announce the project, along with the Premier.
MR. BARNET: Well, you have to consider the fact that we've had this program in place now for a year. This is year two of this program and we don't anticipate there will be
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many communities with projects of this scale. You have to remember that these projects require two-thirds funding from the other partners. They require that the municipality and/or the other partners, including the community, come up with the other two-thirds.
So to the member's question, I don't expect we'll see a lot more or many more projects of this scale. This is what I would call a major regional facility. It represents the largest contribution from the Province of Nova Scotia outside of the Halifax Metro Centre and Centre 200, towards a facility. It serves a large base of population, multiple municipal units, including Chester, Lunenburg district, Mahone Bay, Bridgewater and the Town of Lunenburg, all in that geographic area where there'll be a catchment for that particular facility.
There hasn't been a significant contribution to facilities like that in that area for some time. I'll say this, that if the member were to see the existing infrastructure, particularly the rink in the Town of Bridgewater, he'd understand why there's a need.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): In just a minute or two I'm going to turn the rest of the time over to my colleague, the member for Halifax Clayton Park. Have you received a request under this program from a group in the Northside area of Cape Breton that is looking to build a new recreational facility?
MR. BARNET: Yes, I believe we have received an application. I don't know where it is in terms of completeness, that kind of stuff.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): So you wouldn't be able to give me any details on how much that request was for, how long you've had it, whatever the case may be?
MR. BARNET: The complicating factor here is that we've had different requests for different things in that community and some have fallen to the point where they've not solidified. So there are different players in different weeks.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): But are they all connected to the same project?
MR. BARNET: I think they all want the same thing, but it might be different individuals and groups that are pushing for this.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): As I understand it, this would be a multi-million dollar facility that they're trying to build, which would fall certainly under this category and it certainly would fall within - I mean you've just funded a $10 million recreational facility, which I understand and know was quite needed in that area. I would suggest that the same need would exist in the Northside area of Cape Breton for such a facility.
MR. BARNET: I've been in that rink too.
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MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): You've probably tripped over the lumps on the ice that are dripping from the water leaking through the roof. I'm not trying to make any suggestions here, but I'm sure you've heard about it from the Minister of Justice, the MLA for the area, as well, I'm sure you've heard about the concerns of that area. But I would like to know the details of exactly what requests you have received and how large the amounts are for and who they come from. I would like to know the details of exactly where that stands and where it stands on your priority list. I take it that you would have a priority list or a list of need, whatever you want to . . .
[7:45 p.m.]
MR. BARNET: We'll endeavour to get you the information that we have.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I would appreciate that.
Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure how much time is left but I'll share the remaining time with my colleague, the member for Halifax Clayton Park.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park, you have about 17 minutes left in the time this evening.
MS. DIANA WHALEN: Thank you very much. I welcome the opportunity to have a few words with the Minister of Health Promotion and Protection. My interest in particular today is around sport and recreation as well. I'm sort of picking up from the point where my colleague has left off.
I'd like to ask - going back a full year to last year's Commonwealth Games bid, at the time there was $300 million that we were talking about for the province's contribution to those games. I wonder if the minister could tell us, through the Chair, whether or not the $300 million had actually been budgeted for, and was there a plan as to where the money would come from?
MR. BARNET: As the member would know, the Commonwealth Games, had we been successful, would have been hosted in the year 2014. We don't budget eight years out, we budget on an annual basis. To be specific, no, there were no funds that were budgeted in that manner. Our contribution to bidding on the Games had been fully funded to the Bid Society.
MS. WHALEN: Could I ask for a clarification? When you don't budget multi-year budgeting and yet you say it was all accounted for to the Commonwealth Games Bid Society, that seems a bit of a contradiction. Could you perhaps explain it for me?
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MR. BARNET: What I was referring to was two separate things. One was for our contribution towards hosting the Games, there was no long-term plan on which year we would fund what amount. In fact, I don't think it would be accurate to even describe our contribution as being $300 million. That had not been decided at that point. There were still negotiations that would have happened between ourselves and the other funding partners. Those conversations and negotiations never materialized because they were unnecessary. We ended up not moving forward with our bid.
What I was referring to in the latter part of the answer, the first answer, was that in our contribution to the actual bid proposal - that is, becoming successful - we provided the Bid Society with one-time funding to cover off our share of that contribution.
MS. WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, I was really more interested in the long-term plan and the $300-million figure was certainly used for HRM's contribution and I would have assumed - and certainly the newspaper reporting assumed - that the province would match the HRM funding, which was tied at $300 million.
In going down this line of questioning, as well, Mr. Chairman, I would . . .
MR. BARNET: Can I just respond to that? I think we did have rough numbers but the municipality - in my recollection their number wasn't $300 million, it was significantly less than that. Obviously we felt the province would be less than the Government of Canada and I think it would be safe to say that without any negotiations or discussion around funding contribution agreement - I mean, it didn't happen, we never got that far. The only numbers that we know for certain was the Government of Canada said they would contribute $400 million, up to one-third, up to a maximum of a prescribed amount.
There were early numbers that thought if we had three and the municipality had two and the whole thing could be done for nine, we'd be good to go. At the end of the day it was $1.9 billion and we're short $1 billion, so we're talking about pie in the sky.
MS. WHALEN: I was going to say, Mr. Chairman, through you to the minister, that, in fact, I supported the idea that we not go forward because the price had become so inflated, there was no question about that. We are a small province to take on that kind of a commitment.
I think that somewhere between $200 million and $300 million would have been about the right amount if we were, in fact, going to pull off a Games which even began at close to $900 million. So my concern is where we get the money now to look at the severe infrastructure deficits in sport which we heard at the Public Accounts Committee was really the rationale for moving forward in the first place, trying to leverage dollars, federally, that would help us meet some of the needs.
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If I could, Mr. Chairman, it seems to me I heard the minister say that he wouldn't expect another project of $10 million to be arising in the province in the next little while. I would beg to differ because . . .
MR. BARNET: I didn't say that.
MS. WHALEN: You said it was a project of significant scale and you didn't think there would be another significant scale like this, or many . . .
MR. BARNET: What I said was I didn't think there would be many more, right.
MS. WHALEN: Many more. You characterized Bridgewater as a place with a large base of population and many municipalities. I would like to suggest that the large base of population is not that large in the scheme of things and that the demand is great across the province with so many communities. We have already a lovely centre, the Mariners Centre in Yarmouth, which was built because of demand; a new rink facility in Springhill because of demand; Port Hawkesbury building an $18 million centre for 4,500 people living in Port Hawkesbury.
So, Mr. Chairman, there are a lot of communities that are small communities with big needs. I think the Canada Games bids that came from the Truro area and from Antigonish showed that they have significant needs and ideas, and the Valley as well, with their Apple Dome in Berwick in that area; the Apple Dome that they're talking about is another area with significant needs. So I think there's a lot of need across the province and I know the federal-provincial-territorial ministers are saying there should be a special infrastructure fund, again a federal-provincial-funded fund that will help with infrastructure needs.
So my question to the minister is whether or not he can update me on the progress of those ministers and his colleagues across the country.
MR. BARNET: We've met specifically to talk about this very issue on a couple of occasions. The most recent discussion that we had specifically on this was in Toronto about a year and a half ago, where we met as ministers. We discussed the issue of what we call the sport and recreation infrastructure deficit. We lobbied the Government of Canada to develop a specific federal program dedicated towards infrastructure of sport and recreation facilities.
We talked about it again in Whitehorse, briefly, and I understand it is on our agenda to discuss in Victoria next week. I will continue to support my colleagues and they will continue to support me, as we work towards ensuring a national program to support sport and recreation infrastructure, but we can't wait for the Government of Canada. The infrastructure need is there so therefore, recognizing that need, last year we began the process of a major recreation infrastructure program, we called it B-FIT. Last year we invested $5 million, committed to do that over the next 10 years.
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This year we've increased that by $2 million, that's a 40 per cent increase year over year on that one particular program, plus we have added an additional $2 million to support existing infrastructure around operating for rinks. At the end of the day, I believe we've begun to take steps to address that need in Nova Scotia.
The difficulty that we have, however, is that we find communities are having increased effort to try to lobby the Government of Canada for a share of these projects. As I said earlier to your question, one of the easier ones for us to do was the Windsor Curling Club because it didn't require any additional government money, they were able to utilize their insurance claim on their fire, to cover off their two-thirds.
I can tell you that I've raised this with the regional minister on many occasions. I've actually lobbied the regional minister directly, as it relates to a contribution to a major recreation facility in the member's own riding; I travelled to New Glasgow myself to talk directly with the minister, along with the mayor, to seek the Government of Canada's support to a major recreation facility serving that mainland commons and surrounding area. These are the kinds of projects that are necessary if we want to be successful in our endeavour to make Nova Scotia the healthiest and safest province in the county.
As I've said over and over again, one of the key elements of our plan will to be able to provide accessible infrastructure for our communities. The member correctly pointed out that there are lots of communities around this province that have needs and we've been able to meet many of these needs . . .
MS. WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could ask a few questions, with the minister's indulgence.
MR. BARNET: With all due respect, when I finish I'd be more than happy . . .
MS. WHALEN: Well, this isn't the opening statement, Mr. Chairman. I think it's going into the opening statement and I have all of 10 minutes left.
MR. BARNET: I've already . . .
MS. WHALEN: I'm sure I can get the record of what you said in the opening statement.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.
MR. BARNET: This isn't the opening statement, this is the answer to your question.
MS. WHALEN: I hope you covered it.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I've been around this House I guess for nine years and questions have been asked and they can be lengthy. Answers have been given that are lengthy as well, from all departments. So I think the minister should be allowed to give his response. Go ahead, Mr. Minister.
MR. BARNET: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I was about to say, I agree wholeheartedly with the member asking the question that there are unmet needs around this province. We've been able to address many of those unmet needs but we recognize that there are still more out there and they range everywhere from, as she referred to, the Apple Dome, very proud of our $2 million contribution to the Apple Dome. I know there's a group there that is actively involved in raising their funds; everything from Acadia University, Bear River Sissiboo Trail, you name it, we've been out there actively working to try to meet the unmet needs in Nova Scotia, but we're not going to sit back and wait for an announcement of a potential federal program and we recognize the fact that through Infrastructure Canada there are existing programs that might be able to be utilized to address some of these contributions.
I can't influence the Government of Canada any more than to go meet with the minister and ask him to meet what I believe are obligations as elected people, and other than the work I do with my colleagues at the minister's table at the national level. I was proud to stand with sport leaders in Toronto to talk about these very concerns. There.
MS. WHALEN: Thank you.
MR. BARNET: You're welcome.
MS. WHALEN: I wonder if you could tell me on the $2 million for rinks, is that a one-year contribution only, towards the arenas?
MR. BARNET: It is.
MS. WHALEN: That's good, thank you.
MR. BARNET: How's that for a quick answer.
MS. WHALEN: That was very good. I was going to comment on it but we have more time to go, I guess.
I think that's important, again, the contribution, and the minister has said that he has increased the contribution to recreation significantly, and I don't say that you have not. I believe it was pathetic before, when we had almost nothing to contribute to major projects around the province, it was nearly impossible to find any contributions.
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What I think is important, and I'm sure the minister knows, is it's important for everyone to recognize that the cost of construction has risen dramatically and communities can no longer - municipalities can no longer afford to shoulder the majority of the cost of those new facilities. They will not be built unless we have a plan to step up from the province and provide that assistance, along with the federal government, if possible.
Clearly we wanted to leverage money with the federal government because that's why we went very deeply into the Commonwealth Games bid. We wouldn't have done that if there hadn't been a pressing need to do so. We are getting help with the Canada Games coming in 2011, so we know that the federal dollars will help in that instance as well.
I appreciate that the minister has mentioned that he has already visited the regional federal minister in person, with the mayor of HRM, to ask for further funding. What I would like to know is if that request is now completely done, the request is in, it sits with the federal government, and I guess the involvement at the provincial level will be done when you hear back from the feds. Is the request in and done - complete?
MR. BARNET: I believe so. There may be some technical elements that still have to be relayed to the Government of Canada but I believe it's pretty much there.
MS. WHALEN: Can the minister tell me if there has been any indication of their willingness to contribute towards this project or at what level?
[8:00 p.m.]
MR. BARNET: I can say that they appeared very interested. They understood - at least my read of the discussions we had was that they understood the need and the desire, and we did talk a little bit about the Commonwealth Games. I would think that they're generally supportive but they'll have to speak for themselves. I guess their actions will . . .
MS. WHALEN: If our request is fully in, I wonder, through the Chair, could the minister tell me if there's any way that we could find out what the provincial contribution is for that, in terms of the request that has been made and the package that was presented?
MR. BARNET: At this point I'm not in a position to do that. I believe it's a project that is led by the municipality - the municipality, it's their project. I would like to make an announcement sooner than later and our contribution will be significant.
MS. WHALEN: Well, I hope "significant" is really significant. I hope it doesn't - my real question for the minister would be around the contribution, and is whether or not, when we take out the contribution that goes with the Canada Games, if it will be significant. There was a previous contribution of $1.4 million announced under the federal-provincial
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infrastructure program and we now have the Canada Games which will require probably $10 million from each level of government.
Will the minister be increasing the contribution from that original $1.4 million for the initial project components that were there before the Canada Games arrived?
MR. BARNET: The $1.4 million that you refer to, I think what you're talking about is the contribution that was made through Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations through the Canada-Nova Scotia Infrastructure Program. That is completely separate and not part of this discussion that we've had. That's money that we've already contributed and I understand that the municipality is currently doing work on that site. That work is actually funded from that contribution, so that's not at all what we're talking about.
MS. WHALEN: Can I ask the minister if he has seen a plan for the current work that's ongoing and the footprint of the building that would go there?
MR. BARNET: I have seen what I think has been described as a tentative plan. I don't know if it's what - I don't know if council has actually voted on that plan or not or what the actual approval of that plan is from council, but I have.
MS. WHALEN: I know we had a chance to ask this in the House the other day but around the public consultation for that centre, the municipality has failed to have any public meetings since 2005 and it is a sore point in the community that there is not more transparency. So can the minister comment on whether or not there is any requirement, or guideline, or framework that provincially supported projects should adhere to in terms of public consultation?
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have about 30 seconds left.
MR. BARNET: Well, I say it's always good to consult with the public. However, there are times when you need to move projects forward and it's appropriate to do what's necessary to provide the services to community groups and organizations. It's completely up to the municipality in this case. From my perspective, when we are in a position where we can make our announcement, I'll be very proud to announce it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The time allotted for the estimates debate today has expired.
Shall Resolution E12 stand?
Resolution E12 stands.
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Shall Resolution E18 carry?
Resolution E18 is carried.
That concludes the estimates for today. I would like to thank the members for taking part and for their questions, as well as the minister and his staff for their input.
So we stand adjourned.
[The subcommittee adjourned at 8:04 p.m.]
