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HALIFAX, MONDAY, MAY 5, 2008
MR. CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, everyone. The estimates for the Department of Justice are in recess and will reconvene a little later today. We're switching over to the resolutions on Estimates and Crown Corporation business plans for the fiscal year April 1, 2008 to March 31, 2009, the Honourable Carolyn Bolivar-Getson.
Resolution E17 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $6,141,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Emergency Management Office of Nova Scotia, pursuant to the Estimate.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll open up with the statement from the minister.
The honourable Minister responsible for the Public Service Commission.
HON. CAROLYN BOLIVAR-GETSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, it is my honour to be here today to address the Subcommittee of the Whole House on Supply. Today I will be providing opening remarks for the Public Service Commission, the Department of Seniors, the Advisory Council on the Status of Women and Emergency Management Office.
With me today is Rosalind Penfound, Commissioner for the Public Service Commission and Deputy Minister for the Department of Seniors and the Advisory Council on the Status of Women. Also with me is Craig MacLaughlan, CEO and Deputy Head of Emergency Management.
With the approval of the House, I will be presenting the estimate remarks. I thank the committee for their permission. As you are all aware, I am still recovering from a fall I had experienced a few months ago and I appreciate the indulgence of the committee to be able to do this.
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To begin, Mr. Chairman, it is my honour to talk about Human Resources and the Public Service Commission's programs, services and progress. On April 29th this government tabled its seventh consecutive balanced budget that invests in safer communities, healthy communities, our environment, better roads and infrastructure, education and many other programs that are important to Nova Scotians. Of course these programs and services could not be possible without the people who helped deliver them, our Public Service.
As we continue to establish Nova Scotia as a globally competitive marketplace, where individuals, families and communities thrive, we must ensure that the Public Service remains strong. The Nova Scotia Government continues to implement the corporate human resource plan that was implemented in 2005 and goes to 2010. With the plan's clear strategic direction and achievable goals and strategies, we have made significant progress. The Public Service Commission remains committed to making a difference in the lives of Nova Scotians through a skilled, dedicated and diverse Public Service.
It is the role of the PSC to establish human resource programs, policies and strategies, to ensure that people are treated fairly and respectfully and are encouraged to pursue successful and challenging careers within the Public Service. I am pleased to say that many new programs and initiatives, such as employment equity, respectful workplace and fair hiring policies have been successfully updated and revised.
As you can imagine, the Public Service Commission does its work within a dynamic human resource environment. We are addressing challenges and opportunities under the direction of a five-year corporate human resource plan launched in the Spring of 2005. To successfully manage the responsibilities, the Public Service Commission has laid out five key goals which make up the corporate HR plan. They are: to make a difference through a skilled, committed and accountable work force; to be a preferred employer; to be a safe and supportive workplace; to be a diverse workforce and to be a learning organization. This year the Public Service Commission's 2008-09 priorities are: the classification project for excluded positions; the corporate human resource management renewal initiative; and development and implementation of HR policies and programs.
The Public Service Commission has taken a dramatic step to improve delivery of human resource services, with the introduction of the corporate HR management renewal initiative. This is an exciting time for the PSC and the government. The comprehensive review of the government's HR function will result in a transition to more effective and efficient programming and service delivery. The new HR model will increase effectiveness and improve results from an HR business perspective and increase our ability and flexibility to plan and manage human resources.
We see the future where managers manage their human resources as a key part of their business function and HR professionals support them, where the Public Service Commission plays a strong, overarching role where we are all focused on achieving the same
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results and where we measure and report on our progress. Creating a 21st Century Public Service means having an integrated and highly functioning human resource system within government.
The Public Service Commission has advanced a number of priority items, including a corporate healthy workplace initiative, fair hiring and employment equity policies, diversity employment and training programs and is making progress in other key areas as well. This year's business plan builds on successes to date and takes us closer to government's vision, a prosperous, healthy and self-sufficient Nova Scotia, by delivering high-quality public services.
Each year the Public Service Commission's ambitious business plans are motivated by a passion to create a strong Public Service. This passion is obvious within the Public Service Commission and our HR community today and beyond. The Public Service Commission will also continue to fulfill its role with regard to collective bargaining through a number of agreements, arbitrations and other channels.
Mr. Chairman, the Public Service Commission's budget estimates for accomplishing its plans in 2008-09 is $19.2 million. This is an increase of $10 million over last year's estimate. This increase is primarily due to: transfer of funding for the human resource function as a result of the centralization of this service - this includes 132 FTEs and $9,466,000; increase in salaries and benefits of $379,000, as a result of the NSGEU wage settlement; $350,000 for additional staff giving support for compensation and classification services; and $600,000 for additional support for human resource service delivery.
Mr. Chairman, it is my pleasure to congratulate the public servants who often do not get the deserved recognition for their contributions and dedication to Nova Scotians.
I will now move into the Department of Seniors. Mr. Chairman, it is now my honour to present to you, my colleagues, and to the people of Nova Scotia some preliminary details of this year's budget for the Department of Seniors. As the members would know, Premier Rodney MacDonald announced the new Department of Seniors on September 10, 2007. The department is committed to ensuring the inclusion, well-being and independence of seniors in Nova Scotia by facilitating the development of policies on aging and programs for seniors across government and through the provision and coordination of strategic planning, support, services, programs and information.
The Secretariat committee of Cabinet Ministers remains an important part of the new Department of Seniors. It continues to ensure cross-departmental coordination of policies, programs and services affecting seniors. The committee is chaired by the Minister of Seniors. The department has a mandate to lead the implementation of the strategy for positive aging in Nova Scotia; to facilitate the planning, development and coordination of policies, programs and services for seniors in partnership with government departments, seniors and
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voluntary seniors groups; to consult with seniors and ensure their views are considered by the province in the development of policies, programs and services; and to serve as a single entry point to Government of Nova Scotia, providing information on programs and services for seniors and their families and responding to seniors' issues and concerns.
I am pleased to say that the Department of Seniors will undertake several new or expanded initiatives this year with the additional $800,000 in funding resources that government has allocated. These additional funds represent a 65 per cent increase in funding over 2007-08, prior to the creation of the department. The department's total budget for 2008-09 is $2,127,000.
Now I would like to provide some details of where these new funds will be invested. Approximately $220,000 will be applied to the Age-Friendly Communities Program, building on Nova Scotia's participation in the national and international age-friendly initiatives. The majority of these funds will go toward the community enhancement fund which will provide municipalities with grants up to $5,000 which must be matched by the municipality. The fund demonstrates government's commitment to building strong partnerships and strengthening working relationships with municipalities, as well as assisting them with creating a range of services, infrastructure and built environments that ensure seniors are able to lead healthy, active, injury-free lives in their communities.
The department will also endeavour to engage elected officials, staff, and planners in dialogue about how they can ensure that the needs of older residents are considered an important part of the community planning process. The Department of Seniors will allocate a further $220,000 to the Positive Aging Community Fund. The fund will provide up to $10,000 to non-profit community organizations to create projects that advance the implementation of the goals and actions outlined in the Strategy for Positive Aging, specifically, health, well-being and community participation of Nova Scotia seniors.
The expansion of both the positive aging and age-friendly community programs is great news for Nova Scotian seniors. It will mean more money invested in community-based solutions and will benefit seniors across this province.
Last year the province provided grants to 28 non-profit organization projects through the Positive Aging Fund and 14 projects were co-funded by municipalities through the Age-Friendly Communities Program. The new funding will nearly double those investments in 2008-09. In this fiscal year approximately $170,000 will be allocated to the safety for seniors initiatives. Through this initiative the department provides financial support to strengthen existing senior safety programs operated by RCMP and other police agencies and strengthens the link to government senior abuse prevention and crime prevention strategies. We are tripling our investment in this program over 2007-08 and we will expand the program into communities where they currently do not exist.
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The Department of Seniors will allocate $50,000 to co-sponsor a Silver Economy Conference in Nova Scotia. The Silver Economy Conference will emphasize global competitiveness by featuring international speakers. We are very hopeful that the province will be able to develop a formal relationship with the Silver Economy Network of European Regions, which will make Nova Scotia the first region outside of Europe to receive this distinction.
The department will invest $20,000 for the continued implementation of the Strategy for Positive Aging and an interdepartmental action plan. A strategy progress report will be created and distributed to highlight progress made by government since releasing the Strategy for Positive Aging over two years ago. Highlights will cover a wide range of initiatives implemented by government to address the needs of today's seniors and prepare the province for demographic change.
The department will also take action this year on other priorities, including $190,000 for its senior abuse awareness and prevention strategy. Calls to our 1-800 senior abuse line number have shot up dramatically in the early part of 2008, likely as a result of a well-received, multimedia campaign which was generously supported by the Department of Justice. This is a sign that this very serious issue is gaining attention in Nova Scotia and government must continue to ensure that seniors are protected from all kinds of abuse.
The department will also develop a program on time banking, a unique approach to growing volunteerism in the province. Time banking is based on a simple concept; for every hour you spend doing something for someone in your community, you earn one time dollar. You then have a time dollar to spend on having someone do something for you. Time banking provides help to people of different ages and abilities, while also empowering them to help others. In the coming months Nova Scotians can expect to hear more about the very innovative and exciting program.
I want to conclude my remarks on the Department of Seniors by thanking the very capable staff of the department which made a concerted effort in the preparation of this year's estimates. It has been a busy and exciting year moving from a government secretariat to a full-fledged department, so much of the department's success is attributable to these hard workers.
The Advisory Council on the Status of Women is the government's agency that promotes equality, fairness and dignity for all women in this province. The council works to ensure that women have an equal voice in society, fair pay and pensions, freedom from violence and good health and well-being. The council is committed to reaching out to women of all backgrounds and walks of life, in rural as well as urban areas, with special attention to women with multiple disadvantages.
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The council's key projects for the coming year reflect the issues faced by women in Nova Scotia and government's own priorities. This year council partners with the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities to deliver four campaign schools to enable women to run for municipal office on October 18th, which is both the day of the municipal election and Persons Day, which we mark to remember the day in 1929 when Canadian women were first recognized as persons under the law.
Council has done a great deal of work to identify and address the issues faced by caregivers in Nova Scotia. The need for respite is high among all those facing intensive caregiving, particularly the mothers of children with disabilities. Creating respite solutions is the first of a series of workshops to be held across the province, with 100 parents coming together at the end of May to learn from each other and communicate their proposed solutions. Council will continue to work with First Nations partners to develop culturally appropriate solutions to abuse in aboriginal communities.
Achieving economic equality for women remains a council goal. Advancing the inclusion of women in trades and technology occupations is pursued through partnerships with Techsploration, for girls, and with Women Unlimited, for women. Just recently we had 41 women attend the skills competition. We know that without these programs, like Women Unlimited, those women would not have been there.
The Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women meets the needs of women through its many and varied activities. Communities and community organizations in all parts of the province demonstrate support for the Advisory Council's work every year. The Advisory Council's members and staff are pleased to bring forward the aspirations and concerns of women to governments and to other partners.
I now would like to go into the EMO Estimates and I'd ask Craig to join me. I would like to turn now to the Emergency Management Office. The year 2007 was a very good year for EMO and also a milestone. Nova Scotia's 911 program, which was the first of its kind in Canada, celebrated its 10th Anniversary of service. Nowadays we almost take 911 for granted. It's hard to imagine emergency response without it but just 10 years ago we didn't have it. We can be grateful, however, that 911 service is now well established in Nova Scotia because it has been responsible for saving countless lives and, indeed, ours is a model to which other provinces aspire.
EMO's training unit had a banner year as well, providing instruction to more than 1,200 municipal, provincial, federal and private representatives in 2007. In fact, EMO's training output has tripled over the past three years. That's great news because the more people we have trained and ready to respond in the event of an emergency, the more quickly Nova Scotia will be able to react to and recover from a future disaster, whether natural or manmade. It will help us save lives and property.
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Another of the Emergency Management Office's key contributions to public safety is its role in helping to train and to coordinate Nova Scotia's 24 volunteer Ground Search and Rescue teams. It seems like almost a weekly occurrence that somewhere in the province at least one of these teams is called into service to search for someone who has gone missing. Sometimes these searches end happily and sometimes they don't, but the dedicated volunteers who conduct them never fail to put a forward a thorough, professional effort. I'm very proud that the 2008-09 budget recognizes the critical service Ground Search and Rescue volunteers provide by extending to them a tax credit previously available only to volunteer firefighters. The credit will be worth $375 in the 2008 taxation year and $500 next year. As well, EMO is tripling its direct funding of Ground Search and Rescue teams to $3,000 per team. It's not a fortune, but it will help the teams to purchase new equipment and maintain their vehicles and buildings.
We have also negotiated a 3-year, $348,000 federal funding package that will see all 24 Ground Search and Rescue teams linked by satellite and remote laptops, so they can more effectively plan and conduct multi-team searches, coordinate training and assist other jurisdictions in regional or national emergency responses.
A second leveraging of the federal funds will see $328,000 spent over the next two years to equip all search teams with GPS units and computerized mapping capabilities. Investing in the right technology is an important part of modern emergency preparedness. That's why last year EMO partnered with Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations to provide GPS units for municipality and district planning commissions, allowing for more accurate location information for municipal planning, mapping and emergency response.
I should also bring to your attention that EMO's new South Shore field office opened in Lunenburg in April. It will be the home base for emergency planning officer, Steve Mills, a 30-year veteran of the RCMP. EMO's other field officers are in Truro, Kentville and Sydney. As you can see, there's a lot going on in Emergency Management Office. They don't get the luxury of just sitting back and waiting for the next flood or hurricane to come. There's always planning and preparation to be done.
EMO tests its equipment and operational protocols by participating in exercises. Earlier this month EMO participated in Exercise Staunch Maple, at CFB Shearwater. They did their first field tests - successfully, I might add - of their satellite communications system which allows for the joint emergency operations centre in Woodside to receive live video feeds from the front line of the disaster scene.
Another important exercise will come next month when EMO hosts a Spring Conference of the International Emergency Response Group. This will bring together in Halifax the top emergency management officials from the Atlantic Provinces, Quebec, the New England States and New York. These conferences are also about building relationships and sharing best practices.
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Earlier this month Craig MacLaughlan, EMO's CEO had the pleasure of speaking here in Halifax at the Canadian Red Cross's second annual Conference on Disaster Management. I don't want to take up too much more of your time but I should also mention that later this year EMO will undergo a physical expansion, taking over space being vacated by the Halifax Regional Police, in the Eric Spicer building in Woodside, where EMO is headquartered.
EMO's business continuity and training units will be relocated to the Eric Spicer building from Queens Square in downtown Dartmouth. This will make an efficient operation even more efficient.
In closing, I'd like to say that although EMO is only a small agency of government, it is doing vitally important work and we can all be proud of that. Nova Scotia's Emergency Management Office truly has become a model the rest of Canada is looking to. Thank you for your time.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for your opening comments.
The honourable member for Dartmouth South-Portland Valley.
MS. MARILYN MORE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all I want to say welcome back to the minister and we're delighted to have you back in whatever capacity you are able to function at over the next few weeks and appreciate your remarks.
I'm going to focus my comments on the two areas that I am the NDP caucus critic for and that is the Department of Seniors and the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, although I must say I am very proud to have the EMO headquarters in my constituency, so I was following your comments on that carefully as well.
For the most part, I'm going to talk about the two areas separately but I do want to make a general opening comment and that is I do want to give recognition to the staff of the department and the Advisory Council in terms of the excellent quality of the research and consultation that both do. I have no problems with that at all and I commend all the researchers and those who have facilitated the various consultation processes. But I am going to mention, because it's a common concern I have with both the Department of Seniors and the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, that I would like to see this research and consultation actioned more.
I think, particularly with the new Department of Seniors, that expectations have been raised that it is going to provide a more effective voice at the Cabinet Table. It's interesting, I believe this is my fourth budget and I have been raising the same concerns year after year after year. That is, it's hard to see any progress in terms of comprehensive and coordinated policy development around seniors' issues and challenges facing women in this province. For
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the most part, even the new funding programs, while I'm very excited about them, that have been developed by the Department of Seniors, they are basically to facilitate other levels of action by municipal governments and by community organizations and seniors' initiatives to do the action and produce results in the communities.
I think what is missing here is the coordinated policy framework that I think is the basic responsibility of the department and the Advisory Council to recommend to Cabinet and to pressure Cabinet into adopting. I'm not sure that the situation, the economic and social and health status of women and seniors in this province has changed much over the last few years, I think because there is a missing component. So I am hoping with the additional resources added to the Department of Seniors that we might see more movement in that direction.
For example, my background happens to be doing community social development with seniors around the province. I did that for about 15 years before I was elected. I remember going to a number of excellent workshops and forums and consultations throughout the province on seniors' issues and many of the same issues that have been identified in the Strategy for Positive Aging were identified back then, which I think proves the point that they are serious issues. I think we have reached a point where we have talked a lot of these things to death and we really need to move forward on them.
So I would like to recommend, minister, that there be an annual report card on the progress of the recommendations and actions outlined in the Strategy on Positive Aging. It seems to me, when I was first elected, that departments and offices and whatnot were required to produce accountability reports on an annual basis and it was a way for critics and others to measure the progress on how the money was spent in these various departments. I think it would be a good idea to do that. I know you have your business plan and there is some accountability in that but it is really hard, in reading it, to see where we have been moving forward on many of these issues. So I would like to recommend that there be an annual progress report regarding particularly the Strategy for Positive Aging in Nova Scotia.
The business plan outlines a number of initiatives that have been long-standing ones with the Senior Citizens' Secretariat and are going to be continued under the Department of Seniors. I'm not sure that just outlining the operational activities of a department is sufficient. I really would like to see more attention and focus put on the policy development. For example, the Seniors' Abuse Line; this is an excellent initiative. I know there is an advisory committee and I am very impressed by the credibility of the people who are on that. I know that, as a first step, the department has initiated a Seniors' Abuse Line that is open during regular office hours, Monday to Friday, 8:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. but I am not sure it goes far enough. There really is a need for a 24-hour Seniors' Abuse Line in this province.
Because of the sensitivity of the issue, often seniors who are concerned about this have to choose their moment when they call in to get more information or to raise concerns.
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It is often when the caregiver, or the person perhaps that they are worried about, is out of the home. That doesn't always happen, Monday to Friday, 8:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. So I think there is need here to provide access for people to phone when the timing is good for them, when they are not putting themselves at further risk, when they can get additional information that they can act upon at a later time or immediately if the situation requires it.
I think I would like to see a position taken by the Department of Seniors and also the Advisory Council on the Status of Women in support of the 211 program. I know the funding for this comes under Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations but it is an initiative originally started by the United Way of Nova Scotia but supported by a huge network of government departments, emergency services, voluntary and community-based organizations who realize that having a coordinated information line would better match, particularly seniors and women, to current programs and services in the province and this would be very effective and actually would save money, time and resources from community and government organizations. If there aren't resources to expand the abuse line 24 hours, seven days a week, perhaps there needs to be more support for bringing in a 211 program in this province.
I again commend the department for their new funding programs, the seniors literacy and learning grants, the positive aging fund and the Age-Friendly Communities Program. It's important to enhance the efforts of others in moving forward on some of the gaps in services and needs in this province but that should not be used as an excuse for not developing a broad-based policy framework that would show the leadership of government.
Certainly the time banking is an intriguing idea but it, again, is putting the onus and the pressure on individuals to volunteer their time and doesn't provide necessarily support for that social infrastructure, the community-based organizations that provide a lot of grassroots and community programs and services that keep our communities running so smoothly.
Again, the Silver Economy Conference is a good idea but we have to move things faster into action. We have to make sure that it is not just going to be more discussion about some of the traditional gaps in services or issues, that it is a way to fast-track action by government, by communities, by business and corporations and the non-profit sector into meeting some of these needs.
It would be interesting to know if the Department of Seniors is going to be pressuring Cabinet on some of the issues that the seniors who come into my constituency office face and whose heart-rending stories really make it very difficult at times to know where to refer them.
The gaps in continuing care, particularly home care, the lack of financial supports and aids for senior family caregivers. I have women, in particular, in their 80s and early 90s who
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are still providing care to adult, disabled children or to partners. A little bit of support would go such a long way to making their life much easier. They want to keep their loved ones at home, but sometimes they don't have the lift that's necessary and there just doesn't seem to be any financial assistance for things like that.
Another growing group of women and seniors that are running into troubles are those who are mental health consumers. They don't seem to have the daily, weekly, monthly supports that they need from the mental health system. It would be good to see the Department of Seniors taking some action on this and the whole issue of assessible public transportation around the province. I would say for the last 25 years, if you ask seniors around Nova Scotia what their major difficulty is, it's transportation. I can't see much improvement in this, I know we have a number of community-based, alternative transportation systems that serve seniors and persons with disabilities and I commend the people in those communities who have initiated these programs and they're doing incredible work, but there's a patchwork of operation across the province. We need a system that seniors and rural women, in particular, can count on from one end of the province to the other. It shouldn't depend on what community or what county you live in.
I just want to finish up by focusing a little more on the Advisory Council on the Status of Women. Again, as I said earlier, I think they're doing incredible work in terms of research and consultation. The Advisory Council itself seems to be very inclusive, it covers a lot of special interest groups, and I mean that in the most positive way. It covers geographical areas and I've met some of the women on the Advisory Council as well as staff and I'm very impressed with their passion for their work and the time and effort that's put into their activities.
But, again, I'd like to see more action. I'd like to see more policy development, more pressure on Cabinet to look at our current policy and programs with a gender lens. I know I've spoken to you about this before, but we don't value what we don't measure. It's interesting that I have never seen an analysis of the impact of public policy, in any department, on women. I'm sure all of us have read in the media within the last couple of months the fact that, often, women in Canada do not receive timely, appropriate medical interventions and surgeries as quickly as men or as often as men.
You wonder why we have this gender gap. We know we have a gender gap in terms of wages and obviously we have one in terms of health care services. There's a silence, that cone of silence around it and we need to measure the impact of public policy in this province so we know who's being well served and who's not being as well served. Then we can make the accommodations.
But if we don't talk about it, if we don't measure it, then we can't act on it. I think this is a disservice to the equity-seeking groups in this province, particularly women. We are
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the majority of the population and you would think that alone would increase the attention given to the issues that particularly impact on women.
I would suggest starting with the policies and practices of the Departments of Community Services and Health. I think those are obviously the two largest departments in terms of government expenditures, but they're also the two that impact on women the most. I think if we measured that impact, we would see that some of those policies have to be changed immediately.
I think another area where the Advisory Council could be more active is increasing both the access to and funding of community groups that serve women. That would include women's centres and transition houses - their volunteer boards and dedicated staff do incredible work in our province. But, they definitely need more financial assistance to expand their programs and services to meet the needs of the women in their areas. Plus, we have to look at what parts of the province are not being served by the current network of women's centres and transition houses.
For example, we don't have a women's centre in metro Halifax, which is astounding because the need is certainly there. This is a way to coordinate the delivery of service to women who have what I believe the minister referred to as multiple disadvantages. This is a very cost effective way of providing services and it's done in a very caring, supportive atmosphere and very respectful of the women who seek help and I would certainly encourage an increase in support to those organizations. I realize funding for them doesn't directly come out of the Advisory Council on the Status of Women - I believe it comes from Community Services, but this is where the Advisory Council could better coordinate the delivery of services that impact on women. They could, I would suggest, around the Cabinet Table, support those groups during those discussions.
Another huge area that, again, the Advisory Council doesn't have responsibility for but we have to move forward on and that's early learning and child care in this province. It astounds me that both government and the general public accept the huge investment of money that we make when a child turns four or five in the public school system, yet all sorts of barriers and challenges and limited mindsets are put in place before the age of four. It's looked upon as just the responsibility of parents or there's a very patchwork approach taken to the delivery of child care and early learning.
International research has proven that the best investment of public money you could ever make is to make those early years as rich as possible in terms of learning experiences, providing health and community service programs. That is when you can intervene and support the healthy development of children in a way that will save countless amounts of money down the road. That's when we need to intervene and identify and treat learning disabilities and other developmental problems.
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Instead, we wait too late and then we've got to pour, after the fact, millions of dollars into support and treatment programs when we should have put less money in at the beginning and help these families in the early years.
Another area I think the Advisory Council needs to be quite involved in is providing more educational upgrading programs for women. It's again proven in international research that the better educated mothers are in a country, the more productive the children are and the fewer problems that they have, both throughout their early and later years.
It's interesting - I hear constantly that Community Services are sort of fast-tracking single moms and other disadvantaged women into the short, one-year programs at community college. Often it's the continuing care program and yet when they graduate, there aren't the supports like child care and public transportation in place to allow these women to actually go into continuing care as a career. So I think there has to be a better match between women's abilities and talents and interests and the training that they are encouraged to have. A lot of women would benefit from longer term post-secondary and university education and it would break that cycle of poverty and allow them to get on with their lives and be the best they can.
I mentioned earlier the wage gap. It's hard to see that the Advisory Council is helping to raise this as an issue with Cabinet and doing anything about it . The whole issue of affordable housing, again, I think there's a responsibility for the Advisory Council itself and the staff of the Advisory Council to research and show the impact of this on the women of Nova Scotia.
So I realize that this is a heavy agenda I have put out in front of you and I'm not suggesting it can be done with the current staff of the Department of Seniors and the Advisory Council on the Status of Women. I would certainly support and recommend that we need more resources in those two groups. I think we need to have, as I said, annual accountability reports and we need to be more proactive regarding comprehensive and coordinated policy affecting women and seniors in this province.
We have to facilitate and work with partners at other levels of government and in the community but that's not to lessen in any way the responsibility of the department and Advisory Council to make sure that the proactive and progressive policy framework is in place. So it's a huge task but it impacts on a majority of Nova Scotians and I think we have to see more progress next year. So I wish you well and thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cape Breton Nova.
MR. GORDON GOSSE: Thank you. I, too, wish the minister well. It's good to see her up and back in the Legislature. I also think that there is some work to be done and I know
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I'm going to have some questions that hopefully staff will get back to me with some of the answers.
The first thing I'll open up with this evening is my colleague had brought up the senior issue and maybe I'll point this out to the minister about the seniors; if you are a married couple in the Province of Nova Scotia and you are on Guaranteed Income Supplement, old age security and Canada Pension and you're living in your home and your home is getting older - you might have owned the home for 40 or 50 years or whatever - and you go to the housing department to get a grant for your home, effective as of April 1, 2008, they changed the limits of income for seniors across the Province of Nova Scotia. As of April 1, 2008, the income is $22,000. But if you are two seniors living in a home with your Guaranteed Income Supplement, your Canada Pension and your old age security, both of your incomes exceed the $22,000 limit.
So there's going to be a lot of seniors in the Province of Nova Scotia now who will be ineligible to apply for housing - it's called the Senior Citizens Assistance Program grants, and I think that was a big concern in my area in Cape Breton and in other areas I imagine across the province, that this is a very low income for two people living in a home of seniors.
I'm going to be bringing this up and I did bring it up last week in Question Period that again, here are seniors - we always hear about the tough times that they're going through but the Senior Citizens Assistance Program grants for home repair, they'll be ineligible because of that income. The income levels are set so low that nobody can qualify in that group. I don't know the number of seniors in the Province of Nova Scotia but there are so many of them who will be unable to apply. They can apply but they'll be turned down. I think that we have to look at that, as a society, and look at that as legislators, that we have to make it more accessible to seniors to get a grant for home repairs. If they do get a grant, you know they can only apply for it once every five years. At that income level, many, many seniors, couples who live in the Province of Nova Scotia will be ineligible to get a senior assistance home repair grant.
I know you are the Minister of Seniors and this falls under the Department of Community Services but maybe some day in the future, when you're feeling better, you can have this discussion with your colleague. I know that they're based on the Canada Mortgage and Housing rates but I think it's time that we, in the Province of Nova Scotia, looked at taking care of seniors in the proper way, to raise that income level so that a married couple, seniors living in their own home, would be eligible to apply for that program.
I think that's a good step in the right direction for the seniors in the province and I also think that many seniors would benefit by staying in their own home. They would benefit from not being in a long-term care facility and the longer they stay home, the more it benefits the province financially. It's a lot better if they're in their own home than in a facility
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somewhere, being taken care of by the province. So I think that's something I wanted to bring to your attention for the seniors.
The other thing that I'd like to bring to your attention, too, is the whistle-blower legislation. I think that my colleague, the member for Halifax Needham, introduced it on my behalf because I was unable to do that. I'll give you an example of that in my area about the asbestos in public housing. Now if there had been some legislation in place as whistle-blower legislation, or disclosure, I wonder if the employees of the public housing would have gone and used that legislation - would have protected themselves because when I looked at that and I realized that when the charges came out against the public housing, three against the employees and four charges against the Department of Community Services, I realized that those charges went back until March 2004.
So there had to be somebody in that Department of Housing because why would the Occupational Health and Safety Division of the Department of the Environment go back to 2004 with the charges? So there must be evidence and information out there that they knew about asbestos in public housing since March 2004. Otherwise, they never would have charged them back to that date. So I'm trying to say that if we had some kind of whistle-blower legislation, I know that we did disclosure of wrong-doing, yourself as the minister, back in December 2003 introduced that disclosure of wrong-doing, provincial employees would have access to a process. I'm just wondering myself, since that process has been instated, how many people have actually used that process?
I saw your press release back in December and it said that the disclosure report at the Department of Justice was filed and it went to the Ombudsman and again the Public Service Commission office - there was another one through the Public Service Commission for a Department of Health employee, I think, and that also ended up on the Ombudsman's desk. So I wonder with this disclosure of wrong-doing report, why we don't have whistle-blowing legislation in the Province of Nova Scotia.
The Government of Canada just introduced it and we all know about the Gomery Inquiry and what happened there, so I'm just saying the Government of Manitoba and the Government of Ontario now have whistle-blowing legislation in place so I wonder, we as the Province of Nova Scotia, maybe some day we should look at that and have that legislation in place that would benefit people working in the Public Service Commission who wouldn't be afraid to come forward if they saw something of wrong-doing and disclosed that, whether it was their superior, if they had to go to a certain body, but the disclosure of wrong-doing that was tabled back in December, I don't think enough people are coming forward. I think if we had this legislation in place then, that maybe this asbestos issue in public housing could have been dealt with in a better way than it is right now, going to court, going to a trial now where you have three employees who are charged, you have four charges against the Department of Community Services.
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I read the law and I mean there can be upwards of $250,000 fines for the department and upwards of $250,000 fines to $100,000 of the employees. But if we had had some whistle-blower legislation in place, could this have been prevented? I don't know if that could have happened but I'm just saying if it had been in place I wonder if we could have avoided what we are doing now in the court case. That disclosure of wrong-doing that was introduced back then is introduced in regulations.
I just think that we have to look in the future at some kind of whistle-blowing legislation like the Government of Canada and other provinces that have put them in place. Also, I appreciate your remarks earlier, but I'd like to congratulate the department for getting its 2008 and 2009 business plan on the Web site so quickly, well ahead of other departments in government. I'd like to congratulate the people in that department for doing that so quickly and getting that up. Other departments are behind but I was glad to see that business plan was on the Web site. It's rare that we get an opportunity to get the information on the operations of the Public Service Commission so I congratulate your staff, minister, for getting that up on your Web site. I thought it's rare that it happens and I appreciate the information.
Back in November I think that we as a government passed amendments to the Civil Service Act - I'm trying to look in my notes here, trying to think of the name - it was extending the bargaining rights to seasonal and casual workers in the Province of Nova Scotia. Since we've done that bill, back then we supported that legislation, our Party, as it was going through. We pushed for it for many years. It was finally introduced by the government and it went through. I'm just concerned about the process of counting up the number of casual and seasonal employees. How do we tally up how many are casual and how many seasonal employees that are working in various departments in government? How do we know they're casual?
I just recently had a discussion with somebody who was working in a part-time position. I think it was where they were implementing the new assessment for properties in the Province of Nova Scotia. He was saying that they worked there for almost two years but the contract was up and they were gone. In the sense that he had told me that he applied for a job but he figures he has not been able to get those jobs because if they had hired him within six months of that time that he would be eligible for those benefits that we changed the law for. He figured it's not benefiting him as a casual employee because if they hired him he would eventually have to become a permanent or full-time employee. So he figures that legislation is actually hurting him from getting a job. I'm just wondering maybe the department could get back to me with the number of casual and seasonal employees. Are we getting them all? Are we getting all of those people and what the numbers are?
I'd like to talk about workplace diversity. I saw that in the business plan and I know the government is committed and the department is committed to creating a diversified workplace - greater representation of the people that they serve in the population. There's different demographics all through the Province of Nova Scotia but I'm just wondering
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myself personally when I read the business plan there was a little paragraph that stuck out to me in the bottom of the business plan. It said, "While there has been a minor increase in the percentage of designated groups in the total public service, each of the designated groups is under-represented in the public service relative to the NS workforce population. . ." I looked at that in the business plan and you know from my past experience in this Chamber asking you the question on diversifying the workforce, I know the action plan I read was about hiring more minorities. It's still not good enough as time goes by.
This is my fourth year as a Public Service Commission Critic and each year I see a little tiny bit of the percentage of that population getting into the workforce, but I think that the Public Service Commission should be leading in diversifying its workforce with all minorities, Aboriginal, African Nova Scotians, of all minorities and immigrants that come into the province.
I just think that, you know, we should be leading, we should be creating diversified workplaces and trying to get people in there. It will only make our society much better if we can do that and accomplish that in the Public Service Commission along with everywhere else in the Province of Nova Scotia. I know the minister was quite proud a couple of years back in telling me that when the department made up, I think it was a Web site, I think at that time, where you could, if you were a person of minority, that you could register on that Web site, you know, you could have a list of a number of people who were on the Web site who would identify that they were a minority in the Province of Nova Scotia.
So I'm just wondering how successful that has been since the implementation of that program to where it is today, how forward we've moved ahead from two years ago into 2006-07, until now in 2008, you know, to see. So I'm just wondering, that's the thing that I read in the business plan and I actually marked, you know, we have to look at truly achieving a diversified workforce in the Province of Nova Scotia. I think we're making it but very small increments that we're moving forward in that part of it.
The other thought that I had when I looked at some of the business plan, about a safe supportive workplace. I had mentioned earlier about the asbestos in public housing, that would have been if there had been something in though, but I would like to know sometime if the department could get back to me at a later date about the number of employees who reported health and safety issues in the workforce over the last year, to the present year, if there has been an increase or it has been decreased into that.
I did listen to your presentation about the five goals in the business plan, you know what I mean. Some of the ones, I wondered, when I looked at that, about the percentage of employees that feel hiring is based on merit. I think when I looked at it in the business plan there, only 36 per cent of the employees surveyed believe that that was the case in 2006 and 2007 and similarly only 60 per cent of the employees in 2006 and 2007 agreed they would recommend the Government of Nova Scotia as a great place to work and to live. That was
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in the report and I read that. It caught my eye. So I just thought I would bring that to your attention and maybe we should look at bettering ourselves in that area as a government, Public Service Commission, looking at that aspect of it.
In the same survey, too, only 81 per cent of employees reported that their work environment is safe. Again, it's a good thing, you know, that the government wants to improve upon that but when one employee in five reports unsafe working conditions, you may be facing a serious problem in the future if it was only one in five. So I think we have to look at that again with maybe some whistle-blower legislation to protect that worker to come forward, but we do need some more information on those issues. We do need some more input from the people that work on that.
Just recently, too, talking about the working conditions in the correctional centre, when I was watching the news and I hear my colleague and the Minister of Justice speak about the working conditions in the correctional institutes, I wonder, you know, among the health and safety of those employees with the overcrowding and stuff like that, if there were issues, if they had some legislation, whistle-blowing legislation, would that protect those people who are working in that dangerous field? I mean I wonder if that would be worthwhile?
I think that the Public Service Commission - I went through the Catholic school system in my younger years, I think I was about (Interruption) So I think about, they didn't use a grade back then, I guess is what I'm trying to make the point, if it was an A, B, C, D or E, I guess, but I think the Public Service Commission would be about a C but, we can move to a B, we can be more proactive on these workplace safety issues. I think that we are, you know, the minister and staff are trying very hard to move forward on some of those issues that we're facing today anyway.
I just wonder, classification appeals, that was something that was brought to my attention and I notice your staff has a good pen and lots of ink. I'm just wondering about the length of time that some of the classification appeals are taking. I received an e-mail from somebody awhile back that said that they have had one in there for several years. I don't know the basis of it but I mean, it seems like there's - I would just like to have a little bit of clarification on how long they are taking, some of these classification appeals, because I have somebody who works in the Justice Department and I think I gave the file to the minister awhile back to have a look at because it was still waiting for an appeal. It has been like eight months just waiting for an appeal on his issue within the workforce.
So I'm just wondering the length of appeals because I could actually give you some e-mails talking about how long the appeals are taking. There's one here, someone says, you know, the classification is outstanding for seven years, one e-mail, and the other one is the classification for drafting and illustration text is about three years old. Those are some of the things that were brought to my attention about classification appeals.
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Another thing, too, I guess in a sense, the commission is taking, within the Civil Service, the initiative that you're taking comes into effect on October 1st to deal with some of these issues, I think, is it October 1st? No, okay, the respectful workplace, does that come in on October 1st, that's right, of this year. I would like to know how it is going to be implemented and the resources that are going to be made available for it. That was really one of the questions that I would like to have answered in the future. Also there was diversity in occupational health and safety. I was wondering what goals and resources are being committed for the diversity in occupational health and safety. I'm just wondering what resources are going to be available for that aspect of it.
I know those are a lot of questions I guess that I've put there to you today, but I'm just wondering, the fair hiring and diversity hiring aspect of it. So I know the minister and her staff have been working diligently and very hard to get more people of minorities into the Public Service Commission, which I think is a good thing, but what worried me is these casual and part-time. We passed legislation in the Fall. I'm just worried about how many of those people are falling through the cracks, who are not getting back after the six-month period because if they do, they'll have to have benefits and that. I worry about that aspect of it because are they being not hired back, are they hiring somebody new for six or eight months rather than having somebody there for a certain length of time because they would have to pay them benefits? I hope that's not the case that's happening in this province. I think we're better than that.
I'm just looking at some of my notes here and I'll have a drink of water. I think that I would like, post-secondary internships, I'm wondering just information on that, because I remember I brought that up last year. It was about post-secondary internships, how many young people are being recruited in the Public Service Commission? Are we recruiting more young people? I know the age in Nova Scotia seems to be an issue that we're all getting older and, you know, some of the Public Service Commission, I don't know if I thought the average age was like 48 years of age. So to recruit new vibrant young people into the department would be a good thing, you know.
There are some other things too, I guess, okay, there was another thing from last year, was about a debt assistance program as a recruitment initiative. I think I asked you that last year. I wonder, when these young people are getting out of university and they have such a high debt, is there any kind of, we could look at some time in the future about getting these young people coming out of university with such a high debt. They don't have very much of a disposable income when you spend four or five years in university and owe $50,000 or $60,000.
The Public Service Commission, are they looking at, in the future, having some kind of program that maybe we can offer them a job to work on paying off their debt to the university? Because some of the complaints and most of the things I hear from young people today after they finish university is that they have such a debt that they don't have any
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disposable income. They would love to be able to buy a car or something for back and forth to work or a washer and dryer but until they pay off that student loan. So maybe the Public Service Commission, some day, could look at helping financial debt assistance for student loans when they come out of university.
We do have some bright young people in the Province of Nova Scotia. As our population is aging, I think we should look at some programs that would benefit young people becoming Public Service Commission employees. It would be nice to entice young people not to leave Nova Scotia. Where I am from in Cape Breton, we have such an outward migration, it's a scary situation. We have people who are, in Alberta I guess is where it's at. I guess that is pretty well everywhere, it is not just in Cape Breton but the majority of people from Cape Breton I know of, there is only one jet that comes to Cape Breton now and it's on Friday and it's only bringing the guys home from Alberta. The only other planes that come in there are prop jobs so you know when you are sitting at your kitchen table and you hear a jet engine that it's the guys coming home from work in Alberta on a Friday. They dump a load off and pick a load up. So that is the kind of thing that is going on here now in Nova Scotia.
Then you have the small Credit Union, I guess at that time saying that, geez, Gordie, these guys are going out West and working for four or five years and paying their homes off so the little Credit Union in the community is saying, you know, we aren't making our interest on our mortgages because they are paying them off because they are making that kind of money.
What I am saying is that we have to entice our young people and maybe the Public Service Commission is a way of doing that. Maybe it's a way of bringing them to stay in Cape Breton, in Nova Scotia, not to leave, I guess.
I am just worried at times, I guess, about the aging population replacing the Public Service Commission. There is going to be work there but, again, also your other area of EMO. I must tell you, I recently just toured the 911 centre, the new one in Cape Breton and it was absolutely gorgeous, high-tech. I have never seen that many monitors and screens and machines and wires anywhere in my life. So I thought that was pretty good and it was a first-class operation. I really appreciated that. Mr. Neil Neville was the gentleman who gave me the tour. He was a supervisor, I think. They were pretty well ready. I do know, I guess, EMO in New Brunswick has been pretty busy within the last week or so with the Saint John River Valley stuff. So, hopefully we don't have another Hurricane Juan or anything like that to put our citizens in jeopardy but it's good to hear that EMO is ready and on top of things. It's always good to hear that.
I think that's pretty well it now. It was such a short period of time when I was notified but maybe I can come up with a list of questions. I will try not to have too many. I will give it to your staff and not overburden them but just a few questions. Those were some of the
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some things that I am glad I touched base on. I think that's pretty well it now for my line of questioning.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Kings West.
MR. LEO GLAVINE: Mr. Chairman, while I am sorry that I did miss the minister's opening address, but my colleague took some notes, and we will carry forward from here. With the Public Service Commission, one of the major challenges, I am sure that they are aware of, I know issues come up in our caucus quite often around, of course, the demographic challenge that the Public Service is facing. We know that the baby boomers are basically, the 46 to 64, and the leading age there now at 61, we know there is going to be a huge number retiring or the likelihood, at one time.
So we were wondering whether or not provisions are being made to have co-operative programs and especially co-op students, more and more university programs now are giving students an opportunity to engage, sometime during their course of studies in the workforce, and I think an initiative by the Public Service Commission, since there is such a wide range of professional careers within the Public Service that would be able to engage students with a wide variety of backgrounds, whether it is business, geomatics, health-related professionals, education. There is a whole range that if, in fact, a program designed around mentoring and on-the-job examination of potential careers can, in fact, be a time to open up for a young student, a possibility about what a career in the Public Service could actually mean.
Also, how are new grads being approached? We know that with 10 degree-granting institutions in Nova Scotia, is there a direct solicitation process of new grads to take a look at the Public Service as a future career. I think those are some of the areas that I think the minister used the phrase, preferred employer. If the Public Service is going to become a preferred employer, then I think a more aggressive statement about the job potential, number one, the nature of the jobs, the numbers that are available in a given year just on a replacement factor.
We all know that the workplace is changing quite dramatically and the Public Service, I believe, should be a leader in changing some of the culture of the workplace, especially around some of the things like technology, promoting and looking after the welfare and well-being of workers. I think the Public Service is a great place to produce wellness, a whole philosophy and a culture of wellness at work since we all know that the long-term benefits are immense for the employer as well as the employee, if you have a healthy workforce.
I mention that because in the community where I live, and it may be a national initiative, but the present Base Commander, Colonel Derek Joyce, at 14 Wing Greenwood, is trying to transform the workplace of 14 Wing Greenwood with a tremendous wellness
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initiative for the employees so that it is less use and demands on their hospital, their clinic and their physicians that are on base, as well as, again, perhaps maximizing the careers of these people.
So I think the Public Service, then, as preferred employer perhaps with creating some new images around the two areas that I have spoken to is, in fact, a piece that hopefully we will see some initiatives coming forward over the next number of months and years.
I was just going to really make a few comments about each of the areas that the minister is responsible for. This is a little different format but one which I am pleased to be able to engage in, in light of circumstances. In terms of EMO, I guess looking at the response of EMO and looking at their planning for the future, it was really brought to light this Spring in the Annapolis Valley when in February we had a major storm. A major rain storm produced a tremendous amount of melt and we had flooding of the Annapolis River and the lowlands surrounding.
It really caused the local population to take a look at the impact of 15 homes in a subdivision being submerged by water and what kind of long-range planning can be done to mitigate such disasters because it really clearly demonstrates that we are having a more unusual series of weather patterns, especially through our winter months, in Nova Scotia. When we take a look at other rivers and lowland areas where, in fact, we do have population, we have some low-lying coastal areas as well in Nova Scotia. I think it's an area where some planning now may be able to alleviate both human and physical consequences as we go forward.
I think what we experienced this year is perhaps going to become a little more common in the future and I think identification of such areas, we have great information available at the Centre of Geographic Sciences, for example, they have great mapping profiles of the province and I believe they, working in conjunction with EMO, can start to red flag and can, through map concepts, identify where some of the areas most prone are because there are some measures that can be taken in low-lying areas. To see homes this Spring, you know, $200,000-type homes, have three and four feet of water in a finished basement really leads to asking the question of people, first of all, built in areas that were prone to flooding? From meetings that we held in this particular community, it looks like a number of weather events, when they're combined and come together, create the kinds of effects that we did see and experience.
So I think it's a time for EMO, which is able to draw on a range of expertise with federal, I believe, as well as provincial, and having areas that can get involved with planning with municipal units so that areas that are even bordering on flood plains, not necessarily building on a flood plain, it's not too wise I guess in the first place even though sometimes the value of land in areas by water is in fact highly sought after, but the time has come in our
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province to definitely take a look at municipal planning. It can no longer be done in isolation of weather events. So that's a piece that I have been concerned about.
In moving on to looking at a few comments around the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, my colleague, who listened to the minister's statement, was surprised that there wasn't some reference, or perhaps more reference, to the poverty strategy which is developing in the province. Eventually some very, very fundamental steps hopefully will come out of the poverty strategy that will address immense issues for single women, older women on very minimal fixed incomes, and how their issues to promote a little bit better quality of life, indeed, can be addressed.
I guess in taking a look at that issue, it kind of highlights for us, when we proposed the idea that the secretariat, which in this province has been effective, there's no question, and I know there was even some thought last year of kind of trying to combine the secretariat and a department, or even keeping that title because it does evoke positive images which are developing of a positive aging strategy, I think really was a kingpin, if you wish, in doing some quality work.
However, that being said, I think we envisioned the department, and hopefully it may unfold this way, that it will integrate a number of the other departments so that seniors can have that single entry no matter what the issue may be, that they aren't all over the map in terms of dealing with Community Services. For example, when they have issues, the Department of Seniors is going to be that clearing house, I guess a repository of knowledge with all things relating to seniors and whether again it's nursing homes, whatever the issue may be, it can be that coordinating centre and it can be a place where seniors can very quickly get their issues and needs responded to.
As MLAs, I think we really do understand this issue very well because many of the calls that we get from seniors are relating to the frustration that they have in getting a response, in going through the different layers that for you and I dealing with bureaucracy, we can take our time and work through, but for seniors that is a huge issue that they have to deal with. So I'm hoping the Department of Seniors will put a real human face to the programs that are offered. We do have some quality programs. We do have some good programs for seniors but currently they exist in a number of other departments and I think they can be brought forward and the process can be facilitated. I think it will be good coordination that will go a long way for seniors to gain the dignity that they do deserve in their latter years.
Many of them also, you know, have hearing problems and, again, if more and more face-to-face caseworkers can be coordinated that do exist in the other departments, but again can have the seniors specialty associated with them. I think when we're looking at such a large demographic I really believe that's why we were calling upon a Department of Seniors for some years. When we're going to reach a point here when one in four Nova Scotians will
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be a senior, then giving them the range of services and the appropriate manners of treatment I believe will be incumbent upon this department. It may mean, I think, moving a bit beyond the current budget amount. I can get a snapshot of that at another time, but I don't think it's that considerable at this point.
I believe those were the areas that I did want to point out. The other area in relation to seniors that we are talking about and hoping will be again stronger is the in-home support. I think seeing that expanded is going to be, in light of the demographics that now we've been talking about for many years, but are here now - it's not tomorrow, they're here with us - and we need to be looking at keeping as many seniors in their home as humanly possible. It will be a cost saver and with the right supports can have the higher quality of life for our seniors.
The other area that my colleague had noted as the minister gave her report today was the development of a domestic violence elimination strategy. We all know that this has been an issue in our province highlighted by tragic events to ones that are perennial in some families. Again, giving the right supports to our women's centres and the transition homes and outreach services is an essential part of creating a more civil society mentality in our province. I know in my area of Nova Scotia having a place like Chrysalis House is an immense intermediary for women who are so affected. Very often they are somewhat, I guess for lack of a better word, at the mercy of society to be a part of fundraisers to often keep their facilities operating at the level that they need to be.
Getting at some of those fundamental and root causes through the Advisory Council on the Status of Women initiatives again can be a positive way of dealing with a problem that is on a scale that our province would like to see reduced. We've actually, I know at the committee level, talked about the number of statistics brought forth by women's centres and Women's Centres CONNECT! and the transition house people.
With that, Mr. Speaker, it's a bit of a commentary but I know as we go along we can reconnect with the minister and her department on any of the areas that we may have further questions about as we take a more detailed look at line items in the budget. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I will now put forth a motion on the Estimates that have been discussed to be accepted. Would you like to have any closing comments prior to the motion?
The honourable Minister responsible for the Public Service Commission.
HON. CAROLYN BOLIVAR-GETSON: I would like to thank my colleagues and yes, any information that we haven't answered here today my staff has written it down and we'll make sure that everyone gets those back to them.
MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: One question, did you get the hockey game results from Montreal on the weekend?
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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I don't have the earrings on.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Digby-Annapolis.
MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: I didn't know just what was going on, I was busy with something else and I missed your statements. Maybe if I could have a copy of them it would be appreciated and I can get back to you later with any comments. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I will now put forth a motion on the Estimates that have been discussed to be accepted.
Res. E18 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $42,543,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Executive Council, pursuant to the estimate.
Res. E23 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $1,003,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Nova scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women, pursuant to the Estimate.
Res. E31 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $2,127,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Seniors, pursuant to the Estimate.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E17 stand?
Resolution E17 stands.
Shall Resolution Nos. E18, E23, E31 carry?
The resolutions are carried.
We will now continue the Estimates of the Department of Justice.
The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.
MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't know if I have a microphone, I'm on the opposite side than I was yesterday. I look forward to a few comments, I welcome the Justice Minister after his harried travels today but I want it for the record, my first question to you, Mr. Chairman, did you catch the game from Montreal on the weekend?
MR. CHAIRMAN: No comment.
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MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you for not taking my time. Out of obligation to a couple of my caucus members, I'm going to be sharing the time with them and I want you to know that the member for Halifax Atlantic is going to be bringing forth an issue of concern to many of us, the topic of maintenance enforcement. She certainly will have some examples.
It's certainly a very frustrating process that we, as MLAs, deal with. When I hear of maintenance enforcement there's only one other call that I don't like to hear from, when it's an injured worker and I'm dealing with workers' compensation, but I'll leave that to other members during the evening ahead.
I'd like to turn to the topic of electronic monitoring, if I may, Mr. Minister. Some form of electronic monitoring involving GPS has been ongoing in Nova Scotia for at least two years. Is there any evaluation report of the success of the current program?
HON. CECIL CLARKE: Thank you very much and to my honourable colleague for Timberlea-Prospect, Mr. Chairman, we are looking at - of course this year with the budget there's an additional $125,000 to expand that and one of the areas of expansion will be to look at the youth supervision and monitoring aspect. However, it is my understanding there are 45 devices that are currently being utilized. At the same time, there was a change in the service-provider contract and to my colleague, as especially this being estimates, the contract was shifted over from Mammoth Communications to Gentech. Gentech is British Columbia-based but also a North American service provider with expertise on GPS technology and monitoring.
Every best effort was made to work within the region. There were ongoing and persistent issues with regard to the effective operation of the units that we had. It was such that it created issues specific to the batteries, and of course you need that power supply for reliable continuity. Again, there was a transfer over to Gentech. The contract with Gentech for service provision over 3 years is worth $1.2 million.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you for that information, Mr. Minister. I heard this number of 45 offenders that are currently involved with electronic monitoring but from the information that I've been told, the initial expectation was that was to involve in excess of 200 offenders. Now I could be wrong with that but 45 was not the number that was expected to be dealing with this particular device.
What is the goal, in terms of numbers, for adult and youth offenders? It's currently at 45, what is the goal to have for a number of offenders involved with electronic monitoring?
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MR CLARKE: Our goal is to bring that up to, in terms of this upcoming year -and with the additional budget allocation of $125,000 - is to bring that number up to 80 of combined monitoring.
In conjunction with that is another pilot that we've been working on in the department. I would say that Brian MacDougall, head of the Cape Breton office, has been
responsible for the implementation and the oversight of the electronic supervision, but another thing associated with that, because they need to be put concurrently with regard to some application of technology, is the piloting that we've been undertaking around voice verification technology. I know that would be a case also for the staff necessary to monitor the program, and to get to those extra numbers there is an increase of $200,000 and that would be two additional full-time equivalents that would be added on to that program initiative. So it's also a staffing pressure, as well as just the devices themselves and monitoring.
MR. ESTABROOKS: The question that has been brought to my attention is, who qualifies, if that's the appropriate terminology. Who is going to make the decision, the gatekeeper, in terms of who decides whether an individual is a candidate for electronic monitoring or not? I'm sure that we would all have strong opinions, in terms of certain incidents in our own community. I know the minister heard from the member for Halifax Fairview, in particular, or I believe your deputy minister in particular, Mr. Honsberger, when they appeared in front of Public Accounts Committee, the member for Halifax Fairview brought forth a particular incident that is of concern to him.
So who actually decides whether an individual is a candidate for electronic monitoring?
MR. CLARKE: That would ultimately be decided in terms of when a risk analysis is done by the judge; however, the Crown in each particular case would be dealing with people in terms of who would be suitable for the monitoring.
Again, this is to try and deal with the compliance aspect and we've heard that from policing when we've asked for police officers to be doing front-line policing and the challenges we have with regard to the enforcement piece.
Again, it is to ensure, wherever possible, that the appropriate selection is in place and that indeed, if there is a monitoring issue, and when I was last before the committee, the member for Richmond was asking me some questions around this and I indicated there was one incident, the time that we experienced where one person managed to free themselves of the bracelet itself, somehow managed to - whether it was foot bone structure - anyway, got out of the actual device, not breaking it but just out of the device.
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Now again, one would look at that, however, the lack of activity is what triggered the surveillance to go in to, indeed, follow-up, so in fact the technology did work and there was no threat by the individual and they didn't flee but I think probably was more intrigued by the fact that they were able to get past the device but the fact that it was dormant triggered a response and a follow-up investigation.
So I think what's most important is that voice verification, the electronic supervision, these are not a substitute, they are just another tool with regard to compliance and indeed adherence to conditions. For me to sit here and suggest to you that these are to replace the monitoring processes to help those people who are responsible for their probation and their conditions, to assist with that and if they're not complying, to indeed help law enforcement and officials to do the follow-up.
So again, one of the things that I indicated is we are just piloting the voice verification. Again, that is a very sophisticated model where, if they have to be at their place of residence, then there is no ability to go around the voice verification aspect. That itself may have a much broader application with regard to the ability of doing enforcement and at least monitoring because it can be system-driven amongst many offenders, versus GPS that again is meant to provide people with the fact that they are recognized to have mobility but there are conditions to be met.
You had indicated before about up to 200. Obviously I would like to see much more use of technology, wherever it is possible, to assist the women and men who are in charge of trying, and do an excellent job, but we all know that the pressures at hand are much greater than the resources that we have. So technology is something that, as I say, I think we can use as a tool.
It is something, further, to the honourable member, that I have raised with Ottawa, just as much as I have been literally campaigning with regard to tough on crime, I've also been advocating to Ottawa with regard to resources for justice service delivery. As my colleague knows, for every police officer we put on the street, that's a new additional officer and it's welcome; for every positive news story we're hearing about a drug bust or enforcement initiatives, it puts pressure on the rest of the system. We've experienced that and with our budget this time around, you will note that we will be adding, at least through the department, 72 positions; 41 of those would be in Corrections, at least 17 are in Court Services, there will be four with regard to the Public Safety Division, there's four in the Public Trustee about the personal directives.
So we are trying to put human resources to our efforts, but also dealing with Canada is saying to them, and I know all my colleagues from across the country have been very clear, any talking tough on crime has to be resourced in ability to deliver on those words. So this is one component of that, to my colleague, especially, and I would also welcome, Mr.
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Chairman, if there's any thoughts about improvement or areas of deficiency that people would like to see responded to.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, thank you to the minister. You know there are the naysayers and the doubters when it comes to electronic monitoring. I hope there's an ongoing assessment of the program because it is an effective tool, if it is used, and there is a follow-up, I think the doubting Thomases and the naysayers we have to prove them wrong because otherwise we are going to be spending money not well for the taxpayers of the province.
If I could, I would like to return to a problem that I was addressing earlier with correctional centres in the province. I would like to specifically address the issue of overcrowding. Not to misquote Mr. Honsburger but I was present that day when he appeared in front of Public Accounts Committee, that capacity issues are the result of an increase in remands. I would assume, Mr. Minister, Mr. Honsberger, of course, being an expert in correctional services, do you agree with that assessment?
MR. CLARKE: Yes, we've had a significant inmate population, I guess you could say a trend forward, that is quite large. In fact, especially at Central Nova Scotia, the statistics there could show that upwards of 60 per cent of the inmate population, and that's 228 male, 48 female capacity in that facility.
Now we have not hit - if you follow the trends, I guess, with all of our correctional facilities where we've hit what was the built-in capacity versus where we would have portable beds, in the male population that is where the largest remand factor is being affected. But there also is another component with regard to the women, the female inmate population is showing a trend forward, that we're actually showing those numbers are increasing.
Now we have not had issues where there have been pressures of built capacity being maximized and, at the same time as we talk about other initiatives, we have to look at the fact that we have to be mindful of it and look at where we've experienced, within the male population, those trends.
If you go back even to 1989-90 levels, you would see that probably 60 or 70 per cent of the population would have been sentenced and likely somewhere about 10 or 15 per cent would have been remand, where you almost see - on average I think it's safe to say probably a 50-50 split we're experiencing now with remands and that's manifesting itself with other challenges we're experiencing and we're trying to deal with.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Chairman, the problem with remands, of course, is the fact that there are a number of members of your population behind the walls - or the screens, the doors, the gates, whatever the appropriate expression is in our
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correctional centres - and there is a certain volatility there because, of course, these particular inmates, because of where they are sort of stuck in limbo, if that's an appropriate expression, they're in a situation where many of them are destined for other institutions and they're in there in a correctional institution where inmates are sentenced to two years less a day.
Do you have any - and thank you for that particular breakdown of women and men on remand, I appreciate that insight - any reason why there are increased remands?
MR. CLARKE: I would probably, first and foremost, one of the things we've experienced is just a trend towards meeting public expectation with the resourcing of policing initiatives, some target initiatives now where it isn't about one individual, there's much more effort going into organized crime, much more effort trying to be directed towards dealing with the wider impact.
You'll see with some of the initiatives now the police are undertaking, and as well as the joint initiatives between local police and RCMP, we're seeing that you're having numbers of people - for instance, recently in Cape Breton there were six - not one person out of their home, six people brought up on charges and all six of those put pressure immediately, when they are arrested, on the system.
The other aspect, which is probably a systemic matter versus a societal one, and that is some of the credit being given for remand and thus a desire potentially to have people on remand for the credit, where you would have two for one and, one and a half in terms of value of time served and remand against. As to your point about the other sentences, this is something we don't accept and are taking measures to bring that down. You've seen where people are given two for one credit for every day served, two days of time recognized. Well, that does put a factor on the remand aspect, in terms of the amount of time for processing, other procedural delays that could occur and the amount of remand time would go up.
Now, recognizing that is something we have to address and one of the best ways is to take away any incentive to want to see, from a defence point of view, someone remanded longer.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Is it possible, and I'm not saying you have it available today, but is there a geographic breakdown on the increase of remands between Halifax, Yarmouth, Cape Breton, the various correctional centres we have around the province? Do we have a breakdown on this?
MR. CLARKE: We do, actually, Mr. Chairman, to the honourable member's question, that statistical data is available. I don't have it readily available but it is something that can be provided to the honourable member.
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I would say this, we've seen the stats go up across the province, specifically the highest number being here in the Capital Region of the HRM. We recognize, because of a number of factors and some of them we've just talked about, that the remand issue is there. So if you follow that through, that is why with our adjustment for inmate population, the addition basically of going to two inmates per cell, in the Southwest Nova Scotia Correctional Facility in Yarmouth, that adding 38 additional beds there, that population will be people who primarily will be transferred down that are on a sentence of two years minus a day, that they're not in remand, other than people from the region who may have been remanded to their regional facility. So what we're looking at is a sentence population being transferred to Yarmouth, thus providing more capacity to deal with remand population pressures here at Burnside.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Minister, if a contributing factor to overcapacity is the current problem with increase in remands, has your department looked at setting up a remand centre as a solution to the problem because in considering the fact that if you have inmates in your population who are facing the volatility of being on remand, they're mixed in with your population on certain occasions when there really can be an added factor when it comes to violence or other incidents that are happening in the institution, is there not some credence to the fact that because of the number of inmates who are on remand that we should have a remand centre?
MR. CLARKE: Well, I want to thank, Mr. Chairman, the member. I mean he raises a very practical matter that on face value would definitely, you know, merit something that we should discuss. What I can say is that often times in smaller jurisdictions, smaller facilities kind of deal with, you know, how they would zone a facility. Now, one of the things that's done with an inmate population when they come in, is to assess compatibility and indeed where they should be held within a correctional facility. The matter of remand itself in terms of the pods, that is something, I guess and one of the things I can also provide is if you look at how the new facility, the new model that we're trying to go to, both in Cumberland and Antigonish Counties, and eventually after the life cycle of Cape Breton is done, is to go into these pods.
So that in the command centre, if you were looking forward, you would actually look from left to right at various pods that you can see but are all individually separated and confined. So from the command centre you can actually follow up and watch what's happening. So I do believe we have the capacity right now that if there was a large number of remands, and there is the issue of what I would say low risk offenders within that population as well, that you're able to now in the newer facilities very easily zone off within those facilities.
Now, you do raise as we go forward, and I will talk to our director about this, is that you do raise the thing that we're trying to deal with Burnside and should there not be something we can look at within the Burnside facility that deals specifically with the remand
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population within that pod management. I think that is something that is actually ongoing as we speak. So I guess within the facility there is the aspect of how to deal with the population.
The other thing - and having witnessed being in the three major facilities at this point, there's another aspect to this that you talk about and that is the disruption potentially to a population but, you know, you try to maintain a stable environment and so I would note while there hasn't been specific consideration of that, I do note the fact that the suggestion with regard to remands in a specific area, and that's what we're trying to free up in Burnside to be able to do, to take the pressure off sentence population to provide for more of that, I think that's something we would be looking at anyway. I guess in some ways that's where we're moving with the budget, with the $1.5 million that was added for the staffing capacity and operational support. (Interruption)
As I have been informed as well, prior there would have been, Mr. Chairman, to my colleague, a separation that would have been based upon remand versus sentence population and now as we've heard concerns, a lot of the separations that are made now are not so much on the remand aspect but on the risk and thresholds that they would fall within in terms of where the population would be, but I will say to the honourable member that is something that we can definitely look at even within the remand configuration as we go forward because even with remand population, you still have to make sure within an individual pod that you have the greatest degree of compatibility one can possibly provide. So I will undertake to follow up on that point because I think it merits the type of consideration, I would say that in general we have kind of moved, by operational response, to pressures of the day to move in that direction and wherever possible, it does make sense.
The other thing the member, Mr. Chairman, raised and that is something we are working at, as I said, how do we use technology as well? How do we use technology within the institutions to make sure that we have more effective monitoring? I can tell you, in this day and age, we have a greater ability with technology to provide for all public area taping, digital backup, ability to verify. When we have an incident now, there was discussion the last time I was here, part of the discussion around the Carvery incident in that situation was being able to go back and get access to all of the video, to follow the evidence chain back. So when the investigation report comes forward, as I have committed to acting on and making those findings known, that we can use that.
So in house, I guess probably the other thing, is where we are using technology there, we have had discussions to say how we use technology better in terms of tracking, in terms of court services. How do we follow and flow people so that procedural activities can be mitigated so that human error can be reduced because I don't think any employee ever wants to have a mistake, especially one if we can mitigate it, to occur that is attributed to them. Like we have had some mistakes that have happened with inadvertent releases that were procedural and not something that you would ascribe to being something that anyone would have undertaken.
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As we look at the Carvery incident, there will be findings and recommendations and it will require action. We need to work on those and employ some other best practices. I indicated before about technology and as I go forward again with Canada, they have provided a lot of initiatives in other areas about how to use technology to be, again, a much wider net that can be cast to be of benefit to us and I am trying to take them up on the fact that they are investing a lot of technological renewal, how we work with the judiciary court services and that whole process to use that as well.
So it isn't just the space, it's the tools we utilize. I know there is discussion that is before the public right now as well that will go into the wider aspect of security but I would say, Mr. Chairman, that I do recognize the remand centre idea and I think we can look at that and I would be happy to discuss that further. I actually will follow up with our officials as we look at our operation. The one thing I would note, to my honourable colleague, the member for Timberlea-Prospect is, the first tier that we do is going to be doing the population increase within southwestern Nova Scotia for sentence population. That is $1 million that is provided down there for that process, $0.5 million has been dealt specifically to operational aspects to deal with remand issues. So I think it is very timely and something I would be happy to provide more comment on and feedback in the coming days.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, before I turn over the remaining part of the NDP time to the member for Halifax Atlantic, I can tell you the experience of when a lifer arrives at Dorchester and the notoriety of that inmate when he arrives for the first time. I mean in certain situations, the whole population becomes even more volatile. When you have a cop killer, when I was working there, who arrived on scene. In some situations, I thought there were some of the young inmates going to actually come up and ask for this particular - I will use the term loosely - gentleman, for his autograph. I think it's not maybe much of a leap to look at the fact when the general population has an inmate on remand who is in there for some notoriety, that that particular inmate can be - as politely as I can put it - a big time disturber in the population, especially in the general population.
I look forward to following up with the minister on those discussions. I do appreciate the fact that you provided for us your statement and I did take the time on the weekend, while I was watching the hockey game, to look at Page 5 and that deals with this new attendance centre. I don't want to take too much more of my friend's time, the member for Halifax Atlantic, but the Halifax Youth Attendance Centre on Quinpool Road in the HRM I think is proving to be quite successful in my opinion. I noticed that in your comments you say that it has prompted us to plan, if I may quote, "It has prompted us to plan for new attendance centres in the Valley and in Cape Breton." Is there any time frame for those particular ventures in those other regions of the province?
MR. CLARKE: There is. There has been ongoing work for the Cape Breton County Youth Attendance Centre and you are correct, I mean the youth attendance centre is proving to be not just about enforcement but also being in a positive environment with regard to
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engaging young people as to some of the root causes of their situation and what caused them to be an offender, and also to highlight that it is very much the intention of the people who work there to help them get past that. In those facilities there is the opportunity not just reporting for, again, adherence to conditions, there's the opportunity for education, skills development, anger management, dealing with some of the social problems, thus social economic problems that they may find themselves in, within those youth attendance centres. So moving in first, in terms of next steps, will obviously be to continue to build on the model within the HRM for the youth attendance centre, to learn from the workers there but also from the feedback that the youth can provide.
I think one of the good opportunities we have is that we are not just looking at it from a staff point of view but we look at it from a young offender point of view. For those it's making a difference, how is it making a difference, why did it make a difference and what can we do for other people in that situation to be on conditions. I will very clearly say I'm very much a part of the wider agenda that feels very clearly to be tough on crime but I also recognize our crime prevention has to go beyond enforcement. I see youth attendance centres as very much a part of intervention initiatives, an alternative to the correctional facility and model we would have, an alternative for youth, whether it be the Waterville Centre or the extension off the Cape Breton one for youth, and I've been in both of those facilities as well and that is not a place where I would want to see any youth have to go needlessly and I would want to make sure our programs can help deter them and preclude them from using them.
So in Cape Breton the budget right now is $253,000 to go forward and part of that as well is working, I would just say our working partnership there is with the Salvation Army which, as you know, does a lot of direct grassroots work in the community, have a longstanding relationship. So it wasn't about creating something new, it was going in and expanding on the capacity of an existing organization that has credibility and, more importantly, I guess would take away some of the stereotype of what it would be, that it is very much to be an intervention and prevention and, hopefully, a solutions-based process and a group that can help cope with some of the other social issues they may have.
Again, I'm looking forward to seeing how that partnership, which is different than Halifax but a different type of partnership, and we are - you can call them pilots, you can talk about regional variety, key to the youth attendance centre. So that will be in October of this year and then subsequent to that we would be going to the Annapolis Valley. The Annapolis Valley would then flow into the 2009 year in terms of when to do that and, again, I think getting the Cape Breton facility up and running will very much then move on to the Annapolis Valley.
I believe as well one of the things we have to provide to the judicial system is alternatives because when you look at restorative justice, which has a very important role to play, and that's trying to catch people really, I always thought, at the front end, you know, to recognize people have made a mistake and there's an ability to provide restitution, to
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accept responsibility. The youth attendance centre is mid-tier and oft times we're seeing that once you have a peer group inside who also, you know, one, are dealing with issues but, two, start recognizing the opportunities, that peer group to your point conversely about the penitentiary, if you get positive influences and see people that are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, the peer group can work in the other way too.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Absolutely.
MR. CLARKE: That's exactly what we're hoping to achieve. Again, I hope the Salvation Army will help us be at the forefront of trying to see what we can learn from the Halifax experience. Conversely, what we can provide back to Halifax once the Cape Breton - because we get to take all the best outcomes of the Halifax experience and immediately put them into a Cape Breton model, but look at how the delivery model there maybe can be reciprocated here with other community partners.
Again, the next benefactor will be how we accelerate that in Annapolis Valley because we'll have those two experiences to draw upon and, hopefully, when we say 2009, I'd rather say, can this be the Spring of 2009 versus pushing it out to the Fall.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you for those details. I'd like to turn the microphone over to the member for Halifax Atlantic.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.
MS. MICHELE RAYMOND: Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you, Mr. Minister. As my colleague mentioned, there's a great deal of frustration out there with the Maintenance Envorcement Program. I was wondering if you could give me a little bit of clarification on the Maintenance Envorcement Program and some of its operations?
I should start with telling you the case of one particular constituent of mine who's the mother of two children and now the mother of three children, whose husband has left the province to work. Classic.
Although she knows the name and the address of her husband's employer and she has relayed this on several occasions to the Maintenance Envorcement Program, somehow, all that's happening is that his arrears are increasing, increasing, increasing and the payments just haven't caught up. This is a story that I hear over and over again. I guess what I'm wondering, the first question I would really have is, if you could tell me something about the current caseload of the Maintenance Envorcement Program and how many of those payers are, in fact, out of province - whether working or not?
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MR. CLARKE: I can respond to some of that. I would note, especially as we get into any cases, there may be some follow-up needed just because of the specifics of an individual circumstance raised.
MS. RAYMOND: Yes, sure thing.
MR. CLARKE: I guess, starting off, and to my colleague, on the upside, collection rates have continued to increase and compliance is increasing. Now, as for the 2006-07 year, we were just under 80 per cent collection rate. When you look at collection at just over $55 million, almost $55.5 million, $55,420,822 with regard to amounts received, however, the collection rate is high, but when you have a total of $69 million owing - $69,401,000 and change owing - then it is not very helpful if you're in that group of the discrepancy and we all would identify that.
However, there have been more tools. You do raise the fact that, as at the end of January, there would have been just over 19,129 files being managed. That's a very large number, by any standard, to have to manage. Of that, just over 2,000 that would be outside of Nova Scotia that would be active files, that are being monitored.
Now, in context with just over 19,000, the 2,000 may not sound like as large a number, but I also recognize that 2,000 to try and monitor out of province, is far more difficult and challenging for our maintenance enforcement personnel because it does require so much work. Again, even beyond reciprocal arrangements, there have been a number of things, I think, that are helping and that is where the hammers - as we say - what hammers do you use to try and enforce?
Everything now to the point where you can impact drivers' licences, credit ratings now can be affected with regard to reporting for non-compliance. The very things that some people before were oblivious to may not be so easy as we move down the road, if that person wants to go and buy a $60,000 pick-up truck, may find it not so convenient anymore when a credit report is reflecting something other than the request. Now, that is from a compliance point of view and I know you have several questions so maybe we can work through those tiers and I will do my best to assist with answering.
MS. RAYMOND: Well, that actually does lead into one of my questions because, as you say, people discover, in fact, that they don't necessarily have access to everything as a result of being out of compliance. What I am wondering is, what protocols does the department have for letting people know that on departure from the province their obligations will continue and how they should be meeting those obligations as well as what sanctions they are going to face even outside of the province. If you have reached the point where you are $6,000 or $7,000 in arrears and you are trying to buy a truck on tick, then it may be too late to say, ooh, I should have dealt with those arrears. So what do we have to ensure that people actually stay up with what is required?
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MR. CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, one of the things, to the honourable member's question, which is a difficult one, is most people don't ask permission before they leave. So again, oftentimes, we have to go back. What ends up happening is - you would know and I can say this - the single largest case file that I would manage and, as a minister with other MLAs, are Maintenance Enforcement Program requests that come in. That is the single largest request that I know my office politically deals with on an ongoing basis so it very much is to the core. Every one of those requests, as you know, comes with a level of emotion and concern related and oftentimes, it is trying to have the process catch up with the actions of an individual.
MS. RAYMOND: Or inaction.
MR. CLARKE: So it is difficult to give a clear answer because, again, people move. If a person takes a job and gets on a plane and moves, often the people expecting to have payments made, when does that person get paid? How do you go back? Do you have to go back to court, seek an enforcement order, those types of things? So I guess part of the thing we always have to deal with in those cases is the fact that you do have, unless someone is complying, if they are complying then they are not part of the statistic you are talking about, so they owned their responsibility.
I guess sometimes, just I would note, that you are seeing a greater understanding and there has been a public education piece and whether that is within that group, there has been, in what I have observed, at least, a greater understanding of the responsibilities people have and that they will be held to account. If you were to look at overall global arrears that would accumulate from previous, because I gave you the numbers for compliance now, I would be able to get, I guess, and I will try to get for you, to show you the trend in terms of where compliance would flow over the last several years, to show that it is moving in at least a positive direction.
When someone leaves the province, that is part of the challenge we have and part of where we are trying to work and, again, to the point, what are those hammers that allow for enforcement and for those who are refusing to own up to their obligations with the ability to pay. There is the other aspect, as well, dealing with, very harshly, the fact that there are those who have difficulty with relationships that oftentimes, in these scenarios, where interpersonal relationships are strained, but once it gets beyond an ability that you have people, as well, where they are trying to also struggle with a payment ability, then there the system would deal. Again, anyone who is willing to comply, the system tries to provide and be as flexible to meet the terms. Again, for out-of-province issues, we have to rely on other enforcements and other jurisdictions to help with that, just as much as we would help enforce conditions for people outside of this province that are here in a reciprocal basis.
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MS. RAYMOND: So I guess the answer, there is not really a prospective protocol for letting people know that in fact their obligations are going to continue on the other side of the Nova Scotia border. Is that right?
MR. CLARKE: Again, one of the things, as part of this, and I am into the reciprocity aspect of it, in the process now of developing that reciprocal unit that would be in place so that we can deal with not only our issues in other jurisdictions, but to do that you have to help other jurisdictions with their issues in yours.
I think this is, again, trying to establish as well a co-operation level, collaborative and some best practices to try and say, how do we get above that. The best means we have is getting timely access and notification to people. If somebody can try to basically allow the system here to catch up with them, and half a year goes by, for example, you and I know the impact to the people who contact our offices, what that means in their day-to-day life and how half a year of lost payments impacts them.
So, to be able to go, again, when people can disclose the information, to have a unit that can follow up and also identify that these are items that are expected. We can do that, it's very important for us to have a central unit that we can then use to your regional offices. This is one where you do need a centralized capacity to be able to collect these things and then work out, like they would elsewhere.
Work is underway. I would say to my colleague, there is more that is being done and more we need to do. I don't suggest there isn't.
MS. RAYMOND: Just very quickly on this - the reciprocal arrangements have to be negotiated on a province-by-province basis, is that right? Reciprocity, there's no global agreement between the 10 provinces to work on reciprocal arrangements?
MR. CLARKE: Well, I think this is one of those areas, I guess, maybe to look at it - I don't think there's a jurisdiction that does not have this as one of those areas that is not - it doesn't fall on the positive list of things you have to deal with. It isn't something that is pleasant. So, just as much as we're affected, I think part of it is, in other jurisdictions, the capacity to respond. What we've recognized is that all jurisdictions see the centralized unit to have a reciprocal unit in place beneficial, not only to us, but to them as well.
MS. RAYMOND: Thank you. I've just been reminded that I only have a few more minutes left. I did want to ask you about another question as well. A complex subject that you have probably been dealing with already and it's the issue of the interaction with mental health system with the incarceration system.
I dealt with a very distressing - I think you and I spoke last year - about what was for me a very distressing case of a young woman who had been diagnosed as a very young
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woman with bipolar disorder who had a history of addictions, was a client of the methadone clinic, living on the street, regularly taken in and out of custody. Her family had been attempting to get mental health assessment for her. According to the methadone clinic, it wasn't appropriate to do any kind of an assessment on her because she was using cocaine. According to the Mobile Crisis Intervention system, it was inappropriate to do any kind of an assessment because she was using cocaine. She was incarcerated for something like six days and the attempt was to get an assessment for her during that time.
I would have been working on the assumption that during six days incarcerated she was not still using cocaine. I would hope. Somehow or other, it was not possible to get any of these agencies in to do the necessary assessment, given that she was in need of her regular medications and so on. It wasn't possible to get any kind of a treatment order. Just watched that window closing down, closing down. How do we work with that?
MR. CLARKE: That is, you opened up, Mr. Chairman, the honourable member has touched upon a topic - I'll try and do some quick follow-up. As you know, we could talk about this for a long time, but let's look at where we know the positive is.
When we are dealing with, even the front-line policing, we've seen a recognition and response from policing agencies to look at mental health understanding. We saw with this roll-out this year - the four additional police officers that would be allocated, budget pending - to Cape Breton Regional Police. One of those is to deal with mental health policing.
In other words, being able to work and to have a resource in-house that can work in those areas, the same as what is in place already in terms of HRM, but then there's a crisis intervention. But, I'm very encouraged with, as well, the development of a mental health court for Nova Scotia. Our officials have been working with other jurisdictions - I know primarily New Brunswick has had experiences, aside from going to Ontario, you know, there are some very good models that are working and we're aggressively pursuing moving on that front because it is something that deals with those individuals who are, it's the wrong word, but they're in a chronic situation which you just can't break, that things are happening because of a condition, but also to go one step further, we're working and collaborating with Canada and we've put forward our interest with regard to a drug court system because, as you just referenced, that person in question, is where would they find themselves and what is the best means they would have to deal with very specialized or very unique circumstances and, again, that is something we're pursuing as well.
In Nova Scotia as a jurisdiction, the health related services are something that is provided by the Department of Health. So there is a plus there and as you may have the opportunity as well with the Minister of Health, or have had the opportunity with regard to a recognition, I know in talking with I guess, Mr. Chairman, quickly with the member, she'll be hopefully encouraged with the fact I have been speaking with the Minister of Health and the Minister of Community Services as we go forward, that we don't have a Justice model
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that's going to work. There isn't a Department of Health model that can work in isolation and we need Community Services very much working on that. So as we go forward with these models, a mental health court has to have the other two departments fully engaged and a drug court process has to have the other two departments fully engaged in that in that we all put our combined resources and ability into that process to help out.
MS. RAYMOND: But at this point it means there has to be a court appearance and in a court which doesn't yet exist but there will have to be a court appearance before, in fact, it's possible to engage the mental health system, is that right? I'm wondering if there's any system of flagging somebody as, you know, needing assessment during this time, you know, at such a time as this person shall not be unfit for assessment, then that person will be assessed.
MR. CLARKE: In terms of, I guess within this region, you know, within the Capital Region, there is, in terms of any assessment that is made with regard to either implied by the individual or provided that they have an ability to look at that in terms of, you know, the forensics hospital here co-located in terms of being able to provide another tier of expertise for those who are in the system.
Now, I will indicate we all recognize that there's more to be done and we've taken steps to do more. Some of it is in action right now with regard to providing, you know, a training of personnel but also putting the structures and systems in place that actually streamline people to your point are both there but also to your point, before her time runs out, Mr. Chairman, for the people who are in the system, where do they go? So if they're going to go to the right place that actually gets them to the next steps and we'll move them forward. So there are advances being made and I think we'll probably be talking about this one for a while because it is a growing understanding with regard to the impact of mental health issues. I think it's just a wider society. I mean we're becoming much further and more aware of the impact of mental health on many circumstances. So I would say this and other departmental areas that has an impact.
MS. RAYMOND: I'll go ask the Minister of Health. Thank you very much.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Citadel.
MR. LEONARD PREYRA: Mr. Chairman, my time is very limited here so I'll skip the pleasantries and I'll talk to the minister about those after. So I'll get right to my questions. I have a question related in part, it's a constituency question. A group called the Women's Innovative Justice Initiative which includes the Avalon Sexual Assault Centre, the Elizabeth Fry Society, the Transition House Association of Nova Scotia, the Women's Centres CONNECT! and Nova Scotia Association of Women and the Law, have been pushing for a specialized integrated domestic violence court in Nova Scotia as well as specialized prosecutors and courts for sexual assault. They've been told that they will be
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getting regular progress reports and, in fact, when the ministers have responded in the past, they've said this is something that the department is looking at very carefully and is, you know, generally supportive of I believe.
I just wanted to know where we are in that process and when we can expect something more specific in terms of dealing with domestic violence and the creation of the court.
MR. CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, I am just going to confer for a second for my honourable colleague.
MR. PREYRA: Maybe I can table the question and the minister can give me a follow-up response at some point later.
MR. CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, just to my honourable colleague, yes. I guess first I want to thank him for the opportunity to do some further follow-up. I will recognize that there has been a series, as you have indicated, of ongoing dialogue with regard to, I guess, domestic violence impact and the support services around that. Also, as we develop our specialty court model for Nova Scotia, part of that is providing us with infrastructure just to even accommodate that, working with all of the justice partners associated with that.
So, again, that is something going forward in terms of a specialty court. So the first tier is we're moving on a specialty court, we are renovating a facility at the Dartmouth Professional Centre to try to accommodate that and we are looking at later this year being able to have that readied for use. So it is something I would note to my colleague that I will be pleased to confer with my officials in greater detail and get back to you about that and we have noted that, to provide it, and if there are some specifics around that you would like to know, maybe you can put them on the record and I will be able to follow-up further.
MR. PREYRA: No, it is just that the group feels that there seems to be a commitment on the part of the department to follow up on that but there hasn't been any evidence of commitment and they don't exactly know when they can expect a response because it seems like a promising initiative and it seems like there is a consensus in the department that is something worth pursuing. I would like to know, at some point, where we are in that in terms of a specific timeline and what has been accomplished to date on that.
MR. CLARKE: I would note that you are very correct in terms of the recognition and the desire to move forward with an engaged dialogue and how best to deal with that. I guess in terms of dealing with the priorities as they have come in, the mental health court and the drug court, and this would be another adjunct but at least we will have the infrastructure in place and I guess both the physical but also the wider structure of approaching that.
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One of the things we are doing, to get back, and I guess I have learned in coming into the portfolio is that oftentimes we have to engage a much broader consult. When you deal with not just the justice partners but one of them is the judiciary and the ability to respond is something that I am always sensitive to as opposed to, not to direct, but to consult.
MR. PREYRA: I would like to see what the results of that consultation are.
MR. CLARKE: And I would be pleased to follow up with you.
MR. PREYRA: I have another question, again a constituency question. As you know, we have had a real problem with violence in the downtown, mostly around the bar scene and the police and the community in general seems to have reached a consensus that it revolves around bar closing times, which are too late, and the provision of cheap drinks. I am wondering whether or not the department has taken a position on it. There seems to be these endless reviews of the situation and task forces but no great progress to report. These things erupt and then the department responds and says we are looking into it but no real action.
MR. CLARKE: With that one, Mr. Chairman, and for the member for Halifax Citadel, as you know, the Minister for Health Promotion and Protection has been the lead on this file with regard to the downtown Halifax bar scene and the very case you have raised. I guess to your point, which has been a good one, is that people are responding and helping to self-manage the problem because they didn't have to have the obvious stated to them twice as to what has precipitated some of the incidents that have occurred that are not acceptable. At the same time, there is the ongoing panel on the consultation that the minister had undertaken to look at.
In the meantime, there have been positive responses both in the policing community but also the bar association around that and, as you say, there are two aspects with that, both the pricing and the hours of operation. I think there has been an understanding that the pricing aspect is having the greatest impact and I think the bar owners have recognized the need to self-manage that or it would be . . .
MR. PREYRA: Well, there has been a sense that self-management works but every now and then they get into this predatory price-cutting and then we say well, we have to get back. So I think it might be worth making a decision about how the government is going to respond about the closing hours and about the sale of cheap alcohol.
If I could get into another question before my time runs out, we are trying to establish a navigator program in downtown Halifax to help street-involved youth, homelessness and drug abuse, victims of sexual assault and all that. Just to connect it up with the McEvoy Inquiry, you really sense that the various departments are working in separate silos. I'm wondering if the department would use its good offices to provide an inventory of services
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that are available, not just in Justice but in the other partner departments, of resources available for outreach workers who are trying to help police . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. According to my timepiece here, the member's time has expired and I have to shift now, with apology, over to the Liberal caucus.
The honourable member for Richmond.
MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Minister, I just want to clarify something, when we last spoke on Friday, we talked about construction of new facilities, both Antigonish and Central Nova. What level facilities will these be? I know both right now are not maximum security - what's the term we use for not maximum? Is it just minimum?
MR. CLARKE: No, no, actually the new facilities, this very question, actually the new facilities, just because of the size, will actually be able to take both low to high risk offenders in them. Part of that will be in terms of how they are qualified, as in the individual pods that are managed, the population by risk is separated.
MR. SAMSON: Do you know right now what cell count you are looking at for both new facilities? Or is that still in the planning phase?
MR. CLARKE: The total bed count - well the cell would be 150 and the bed count would be 300, up. So the infrastructure will be built to accommodate 300 beds.
MR. SAMSON: So right now, between Antigonish and Central Nova, there's how many beds?
MR. CLARKE: There's 50.
MR. SAMSON: Between both of them?
MR. CLARKE: Correct.
MR. SAMSON: So you'd be moving from . . .
MR. CLARKE: Cumberland and Antigonish, sorry.
MR. SAMSON: Cumberland and Antigonish. So those are the two facilities you're looking to replace.
MR. CLARKE: Correct.
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MR. SAMSON: Okay, with two new facilities, one in each community, I'm assuming, or on or near.
MR. CLARKE: In the counties.
MR. SAMSON: Okay, so you're going from 50 beds up to 150, with the potential of up to 300 because they will be designed to be double-bunked.
MR. CLARKE: Correct.
MR. SAMSON: Will there be a double bunk in each one, or will you have a single, fixed, with the ability to put a portable?
MR. CLARKE: No, as I indicated, and that's a very important clarification as well, there will be two beds built into the rooms.
MR. SAMSON: Okay, so depending on your occupancy, that'll determine whether they're used as single cell or double cell.
MR. CLARKE: Right, and the best practice that was built into these is that it would be on a best practices basis, and that was where it started, one prisoner per cell but the capacity ability is two per cell.
MR. SAMSON: Right now the Cape Breton Correctional Facility, is that a maximum security facility?
MR. CLARKE: Well actually when I toured it I can say there is a capacity for maximum in there. That facility goes, it has a ward system as well, for low-offending population, but it has the ability to go up what we consider in a provincial system to a maximum or a high risk offender. So the answer is yes.
MR. SAMSON: It has been reported in the news that at some point inmates from the Cape Breton Correctional Facility were being housed at a local halfway house, because of the fact that the facility was at capacity and they were being put there. How many inmates have been put into halfway homes because of the fact - in that area, I guess - because of the fact that you were at capacity?
MR. CLARKE: That relationship that you're referencing has been in place now - I thought it was 25 years but I'm being told it's 30 years - that there had been a relationship with that facility and also, again, that is dealing with low-risk offenders, capable, and also an environment to meet conditions.
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So on average, it's my understanding that we would have, on a weekend basis, one or two people who would have been placed there. It's not necessarily even based upon the count at the facility but just the suitability with regard to the individuals and for the environment that the facility would offer them, again with regard to rehabilitation opportunity.
MR. SAMSON: Okay, so you're saying that even though you'd have beds available at the Cape Breton Correctional Facility, you may still be sending inmates to the halfway house?
MR. CLARKE: Again, the people who would be sent there - so I guess the answer is yes - but the people who are going there are people designated for rehabilitative activities and transitional programming.
MR. SAMSON: And are those not available at the correctional facility?
MR. CLARKE: Well again, the reason for a halfway house is to take them away from that environment and get them ready for general population and whether that's to go and work in the daytime . . .
MR. SAMSON: Okay, well that's where there's a bit of confusion here because I understand how a halfway house works, usually as part of the end of your sentence, prior to being sent back into the community, you're put at a halfway house for a period of time prior. The way it was reported is that it was not people who were designated to go to a halfway house but it was because of occupancy issues that people not slated to go to a halfway house were being put there because there was really no other place to put them.
What you're telling me is two separate things, so I'm just trying to get this clear here; are they people that it was just a normal part of their sentence who went to this halfway house, or they were put there because you really didn't have a place at the facility to put them?
MR. CLARKE: Most recently it has been an issue with regard to the inmate population. Traditionally it would be the intermittent people serving weekend sentences and again, on an intermittent or transitional basis out.
But yes, when it has come to the floor of late, in terms of an issue, it has been about the actual inmate population pressures at the Cape Breton facility.
MR. SAMSON: Do you currently have any inmates in the halfway house in Sydney because of the fact that you're at capacity at the Cape Breton Correctional Facility?
MR. CLARKE: No, not at this time.
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MR. SAMSON: So is it my understanding, with this new policy both at the Yarmouth correctional facility and at Burnside, that any time you're at capacity now at the Cape Breton Correctional Facility you'll be sending those inmates either to Burnside or to Yarmouth. Is that a fair statement - rather than sending them to the halfway house, you'll now have the option of sending them to Burnside or Yarmouth?
MR. CLARKE: Well again the answer is yes, they will go to, I guess the overflow for Burnside or Yarmouth, depending on the nature of their conditions that they're there, but it's also a "yes" to people who otherwise would have been in that normal track of programming would still have that facility available, like for intermittent and/or transitional.
But in terms of the population, I guess specific to population pressures where it's overcapacity, then that would not be the case, they would actually go to Burnside or Yarmouth.
MR. SAMSON: So from here forward, you do not intend to have to use - is it a halfway house, is that what it is called?
MR. CLARKE: It is a halfway house, I haven't referred to it by name.
MR. SAMSON: I have the name here somewhere. So it's not your intention to have any more - Howard House, that's what it's called, Howard House down in Cape Breton - it's not your intention to send any more inmates to that facility, outside of their normal sentencing, because of occupancy issues you'll now send them to either Burnside or Yarmouth?
MR. CLARKE: Correct, unless they normally would be eligible to go there for programming purposes, but it will not be, to your point, you are correct, for overflow of inmate population.
MR. SAMSON: So typically, under this new arrangement, an inmate from Sydney could technically be housed in Yarmouth?
MR. CLARKE: Yes, just as much when I toured Cape Breton, there was an inmate from metro Halifax in the Cape Breton facility as well.
MR. SAMSON: Is that a common occurrence, prior to what has taken place here, that Cape Breton inmates would be in Yarmouth or Yarmouth would be all the way over in Cape Breton?
MR. CLARKE: Unless it was directed with regard to a lawyer of the court for a specific reason, for the Cape Breton situation, when I was there, that was dealing with overflow from the metropolitan area, it wasn't about inmate population from Cape Breton
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flowing here. Now, to the new arrangements that are in place with regard to the situation of population, as was indicated, those who are serving a sentence. So you may have people from Cape Breton now who are on two years minus a day sentence who may be at the Southwest Nova Scotia Correctional Facility in Yarmouth for a sentenced situation and, again, part of that is to make sure that the flexibility is in place for the remand pressures that are within the Capital Region and, hopefully, will not create those pressures within the Cape Breton facility.
MR. SAMSON: In this budget have you accounted for any increase in the costs of prisoner transfer because of this new arrangement?
MR. CLARKE: The answer to that is yes with regard to transportation. Both in the current additional where the plan is in place for Southwest Nova as well as central Nova Scotia, in Southwest Nova it's $1 million that's there. There would be an additional staffing aspect there and that involves everything from the kitchen support to additional corrections workers is the predominant, the most number. (Interruption) So we've added additional resource within the sheriff's budget to deal with additional transportation there and that would be $100,000.
MR. SAMSON: An extra $100,000. There has been a lot reported about correctional staff refusing to do inmate transfers or inmate appointments, anything requiring them to take inmates outside of a facility. If the correctional officers are not doing this, who is taking responsibility for these transfers?
MR. CLARKE: At this time that would be primarily at this point the sheriff service and managers and there have been cases where police, off-duty police, have been called in a supervisory role in the hospital facility.
MR. SAMSON: To date, how many police officers have been used to do this work that you're aware of?
MR. CLARKE: I don't have that number but I'll endeavour to get it for the honourable member, Mr. Chairman.
MR. SAMSON: I guess the question is, you've got a problem. The correctional officers are refusing to do these transfers and you've asked for an audit that we know won't be ready until the Fall, best case scenario. The question is, where do we go from here? You are using managers right now, off-duty police officers, sheriff services. That seems to be a bit of an emergency type plan. Do you have a vision or a plan as to how you're going to move forward on this in light of the fact that it does not appear that the correctional officers are going to be accepting these transfers any time soon?
MR. CLARKE: There are two processes right now that are ongoing. Mr. Chairman. The honourable member for Richmond is aware of the Occupational Health and Safety, that
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process that gets engaged as a result of concerns that are raised within the workplace and those on an individual basis are reviewed and are being reviewed. That process, when it comes forward, as I've talked both publicly and also in meetings with the union, have dealt with and have said that an independent external audit will be used as the basis of identifying areas for improvement and to deal with the operational issues that we find before us.
I recognize that as we go forward and the member has brought up previously in discussion that all best efforts and intentions to have two new replacement facilities will require an ongoing arrangement. Again, when we look at the plans in place operationally, it is to make sure, first and foremost, that all of the in-custody situations and in-facility security is provided. I made that commitment, both publicly to the workers, to managers, that we will make sure we have the appropriate staffing levels necessary to meet the population that would be in place.
Subsequent to that, what is the best configuration in terms of providing that service in the best means possible. That is something that is going to be subject to a further audit process. Again, I've asked for that to be done as quickly as possible, but at the same time expecting them to be thorough and so we'll await the audit.
MR. SAMSON: As far as young offenders right now, am I correct in that we have one facility - that being the one in Waterville - where we house young offenders?
MR. CLARKE: Well, we have Waterville as the primary facility which I think can take about 100 youth population. There is also a transitional unit - there are eight - there's a separate attached, but stand-alone, secure facility at the Cape Breton Correctional Facility for young offenders as well. That could be dealing with probably remand or other issues and if there are court issues in Sydney and the like. But, there are eight additional cells that are within that unit.
MR. SAMSON: What is the occupancy at both facilities right now?
MR. CLARKE: The Cape Breton one is I guess more, it doesn't have a full-time population. There wouldn't be a sentenced population there. For instance, the day that I toured was during the week. Often, as you can appreciate, the weekend numbers come in prior to going to court and/or being required to be elsewhere. The Cape Breton facility wouldn't be that. The Waterville population is approximately around 80 at this time.
MR. SAMSON: Around 80.
MR. CLARKE: Yes. We'll check on that for you.
MR. SAMSON: What plan is in place should the Waterville facility come to capacity?
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MR. CLARKE: There are a couple of areas where we're putting our attention and one is to try and utilize as another tier of ability to respond to some issues and that's the youth attendance centres and to try to deal with other alternative forms of restorative activity.
That being the case, should the youth population increase, there is in some ways, with the Cape Breton facility, I suppose, an ability to utilize that further, but we have not had, that I'm aware, concerns about over population.
As I've been informed, there is the ability to do some expansion and capacity within the Waterville facility. Again, when I was at that facility, it is very much structured in a way that provides a number of various areas for different criteria. For instance, there is a unique facility there in the sense that they have a very high community participation rate and utilizing it. Also, even their pool facility that's on-site, has a secure access area for those people on program, but the local community use it for their aquatics program as well.
There are a number of initiatives that they reach out to the Waterville community, volunteers, but from a population base, I guess, to answer your question, we really haven't had - in other words, if we had to make the facility more secure and limit its use, we probably could. There hasn't been a need to do that so thus the facility actually provides some public function as well and it works quite well.
MR. SAMSON: It's sending a bit of a mixed message because, minister, you're the same person who's been touring the province going to speak to Chambers of Commerce and any group that will give you an audience to say we need a stronger Youth Criminal Justice Act, we need more incarceration of repeat offenders and we need stronger sentences. Yet, you know that you have a facility that right now can only handle 100 and you're up to 80. If you had your way, basically, we'd see more young people incarcerated. There doesn't appear to be a plan unless you're going to put them in a pool that you just referred to, I don't hear of any other plan where you would be able to house these additional offenders, should your federal colleagues bring in these much stronger changes to the Youth Criminal Justice Act.
MR. CLARKE: Part of the response that we've asked from the federal government as well in responding to the Nunn Commission and the ongoing dialogue of implementing that is the necessary support to meet up with or to match the programming we're asking for, in this case the legislation and the actions.
Again, and you are right, anywhere I can get an ear I am asking people to support us in our "tough on crime" agenda and to deal with the Youth Criminal Justice Act in those areas where it is not working. We are working provincially to provide alternative forms of programming, such as the youth attendance centres, where otherwise we have over 200 youths here in the Halifax Regional Municipality to have a place to go with supervision, with programming, with the ability to deal with things. When you look at rolling that out to Cape
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Breton and the Valley, we're not just dealing with one form only, but it's also meaning that in those areas where the need for space will be required, we'll have the ability to do it.
As I indicated, tough on crime also means crime prevention and in there we have the enforcement, intervention and prevention initiatives. Again, part of what we'll be doing in this is in our own capacity right now we're rolling out further programming. If Ottawa will support these initiatives, we'll be expecting reciprocal support with the capacity to deliver on that. Just as much as we've said to the Government of Canada, with other tough on crime initiatives for the adult population, we need to have the resources from Canada to comply with federal impact of the legislation, so that would be no different.
MR. SAMSON: How much money is included in this budget or how much increased funding is in this budget to deal with these youth initiatives that you're referring to?
MR. CLARKE: The Cape Breton facility in Sydney, that was $253,000 the youth initiatives, there are a couple of different areas that would apply to crime prevention and youth. While we're getting some numbers out here, I do know that under the youth strategy through the Department of Community Services, there's a component of that directed toward crime prevention initiatives for youth at risk. When the Minister of Labour and Workforce Development, part of the programming that those programs bring forward are for youth at risk and making opportunities for career options and to give them experience and part of the youth at risk is to get them in to get them their GED, give them some workplace exposure, so there's a program area there.
Also, within our crime prevention initiatives, the attendance centres, like I said, Sydney is $253,000 and then a number of initiatives will flow from that in a whole host of areas. For instance, right now with the initial community-based grants that were provided that go directly to try to help and intervene and people will look at where we are at a community level.
We are trying to respond to those who are reaching out and doing programs. I'll take an example, we had four boxing clubs that were all trying to do stuff to get children, youth who are at their doorstep potentially causing a problem, inside the facility. The number one thing they needed to do is get a kit for them, so where does $5,000 go? Well, if it provides 15 to 20 youth with additional opportunity to be part of a program that gives them leadership opportunities, that would be great. Just last year we had $403,000 of community initiatives to deal with that. We had Community Cares Youth Outreach dealing with youth at risk and what we've had is a number of grassroots initiatives, so this is to get out there. We saw with the federal government an initiative about trying to curb, in a metropolitan setting, the gangs, trying to get youth away from gang-related activities or the chance for that. We're working with HR Police, with the local municipality, with local community policing and a neighbourhood response. Being tough on crime also has to be program-focused and it's not
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just about counting the cells, but also asking for the support. So we're acting on that and putting real dollars into programming right now.
MR. SAMSON: All right, now we're not going to count cells, I'm glad you're talking about real dollars because my question was, what money is in the budget, so maybe you can tell me the real dollars that are going toward this in your department and in this specific budget, how much it is, for which programs?
MR. CLARKE: It's $830,000 within the Department of Justice . . .
MR. SAMSON: For what?
MR. CLARKE: For youth-related programming, which can be in a whole host of areas. For instance, the $403,000 . . .
MR. SAMSON: So that's not broken down into community grants or anything, it's just stuff for youth?
MR. CLARKE: The Department of Community Services is doing one at $1.2 million for youth and related associated with their component of the Youth Strategy, but also building on crime prevention initiatives. For the Department of Justice, for instance and I can try to get a breakdown, but just in terms of community supports for 63 groups, well with $403,000 we were able to help 63 community-based groups.
MR. SAMSON: So you're saying $403,000?
MR. CLARKE: Yes, was given out last year to 63 community groups.
MR. SAMSON: Is that part of this $830,000 this year or no?
MR. CLARKE: No, that was last year but going forward this year . . .
MR. SAMSON: How much money do you have for those groups this year?
MR. CLARKE: With specifics to that, there's an additional $100,000 this year that has been placed toward community youth-based initiatives in response to that.
MR. SAMSON: So that money hasn't been given out yet?
MR. CLARKE: No, it has not.
MR. SAMSON: Do you have the details around how communities can apply for that funding?
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MR. CLARKE: Yes, actually in the Crime Prevention Strategy there are grants that are eligible up to $15,000. With the grants it is different than other types of programs because these grants are to go directly into programming. You are eligible for up to $15,000 and the grants themselves don't go into the operating, i.e. the staff aspects, but the operating from a programming point of view, that actually the money flows directly into a program activity.
MR. SAMSON: And you have the details of that program that you can share with us, the application, because I wasn't aware of how that program worked, so I would be curious. Do you have the list of the 63 groups who received the $403,000 last year?
MR. CLARKE: I can get a copy of that for you.
MR. SAMSON: Great. Your campaign going around the province to speak about the changes to the Youth Criminal Justice Act, as of April 3, 2008, the press release indicated that the cost to taxpayers was $23,000. Could you indicate to us now what the total cost has been for this campaign?
MR. CLARKE: As of last month that was $33,000, as I'm aware.
MR. SAMSON: When you say last month, that means what, April 30th or April 15th?
MR. CLARKE: March 31st, yes.
MR. SAMSON: As of March 31st ?
MR. CLARKE: Yes.
MR. SAMSON: March 31st it was $33,000?
MR. CLARKE: Correct.
MR. SAMSON: So what has the cost been since March 31st to May 5th?
MR. CLARKE: From that period to this one?
MR. SAMSON: Yes.
MR. CLARKE: From that period there hasn't been much activity. I will be undertaking community town halls in various regions of the province as well, but that is in the process of being scheduled right now. There will be, I know, some further follow-up, I believe, with regard to newspapers, on-line version, with regard to being able to access a link to the "Fix Youth Crime". As well, I've undertaken to do an EastLink cable ad to talk about the Fix Youth Crime campaign and those will be undertaken this month or soon.
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MR. SAMSON: I'm curious, in your travels around the province on this issue, have you encountered anyone who has told you they don't agree with the approach the government is taking on trying to have changes to the Youth Criminal Justice Act?
MR. CLARKE: I had one person, ascribed to maybe your colour, in Truro, who indicated he didn't like a couple of things we were doing, but as we go forward what you see is that there are sometimes, by region, different issues that are affecting those regions. The other aspect that I've seen is it's not just trying to indicate what the issue is at hand because I know you're going to say, well everyone agrees with you, Mr. Minister, so why are you travelling around the province, everyone believes in this, all the Parties say we're in favour of it.
I know as I go to and I've dealt with the chambers of commerce and people said, why are you going to the chambers of commerce? I also know chambers of commerce members are in businesses that are impacted by the types of activities associated with crime. I know they're involved with the service clubs and organizations in their community, that they can impact some involvement. They are involved with their church communities and so there was a reason to target that, just as much as getting into town halls. It also provides an opportunity to talk about, for instance, where we are prepared to step up to the plate.
In the meetings not only do I talk about our community-based grants initiatives, so it's not just saying that we want to be tough on crime, we need to fix the Youth Criminal Justice Act, it's why and how do we need to fix it, what are the impediments to fixing it and also, what are we doing as a government associated with wider impacts of crime because it goes beyond youth. With the youth campaign it talks about other programming.
One of the things I offer up as I go around to these communities is where we're prepared to partner with Canada. I talk about the initiatives within the Department of Justice for Canada as well as public safety. I indicated if there are any crime prevention initiatives at the federal level that local communities want to respond to and they go on-line and they have an initiative and they'd like to do it, then we will look at, with our dollars, trying to make sure they don't get exempted from accessing federal programs because they don't have seed money to do that. It's a multi-faceted approach that I've taken as I've travelled the province and it also means making sure people are aware of exactly what we're trying to do.
When we talk about being tough on crime and we want to fix the Youth Criminal Justice Act, it's also dealing with the other facets of what we're trying to respond to in terms of doing positive initiatives beyond just enforcement itself.
MR. SAMSON: Is it then safe to say that your safer streets task force was a failure in the fact they did almost everything of what you just said, provided you with a report and feedback from all these communities, did the town halls, had an opportunity to raise all these
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issues, yet the fact that you're going out there looking for the same information, was that a waste of taxpayers' dollars and was that committee a failure?
MR. CLARKE: I think it was a great investment and I think it is proof positive that you deal with many different approaches to public education. I think it provided a heightened level of awareness for people that will come to the next round of community involvement. I believe anything that allows Nova Scotians to state their opinion, to become engaged and involved with looking at alternatives, building upon what the safer streets and communities initiative where the minister's task force was all about. I think it was time, money and effort well invested and it's proving itself out as we tour the province and being able to build on the Crime Prevention Strategy that I announced in December.
What I was able to announce was not my strategy but the work of that group and my ability to go out and show them that their time was well invested because we now have a program that is in the process of implementation.
MR. SAMSON: One of the things that you're asking Nova Scotians to do is to sign an on-line petition, is that correct?
MR. CLARKE: That is true.
MR. SAMSON: And that's to send to Ottawa, I assume?
MR. CLARKE: Correct.
MR. SAMSON: And that's to be tabled at some point in the House of Commons, I assume?
MR. CLARKE: To be presented to the minister, yes.
MR. SAMSON: To be presented to the minister. I find that ironic because you'll recall that my colleague, the member for Halifax Clayton Park has advocated for on-line petitions here in our House of Assembly and during your time as Speaker of the House you refused to allow on-line petitions and yet you're asking Nova Scotians to sign an on-line petition to send to Ottawa.
MR. CLARKE: That's correct.
MR. SAMSON: Are you now in a position to support my colleague, the member for Halifax Clayton Park, in her efforts to have on-line petitions recognized here in Nova Scotia?
MR. CLARKE: Actually I'm taking my petition to the federal minister and, again, it's a matter before the Parliament of Canada that I'm trying to address and, again, we've
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often talked about, here in the Province of Nova Scotia, just as much as we would want to build on initiatives, it's about our capacity to do that and we are, as you would well know, without a lot of the resources to be able to do that in a setting that we have here. So I have not been out advocating that. I've been providing a means for people to sign up to make a point with a colleague in the Government of Canada as opposed to something that I'm trying to advocate for the House of Assembly of Nova Scotia.
MR. SAMSON: Well, I can tell you most of the things that we bring in as petitions are not meant for the attention of the House of Assembly but they're meant for the attention of the government and the ministers responsible. I haven't seen a petition yet that seeks changes to the House of Assembly. They're all asking for ministers and government departments to pay attention. I'll be curious to see if anyone tries to table your petition up in Ottawa just to see how that works.
Minister, I hear what you're saying and it all sounds great, education, going out to communities and everything else, but I have to tell you, in my10 years, I don't get calls asking me about programs in your department, these grants and that. I get calls about maintenance enforcement enough but people aren't calling me about that and I'm curious when I hear you say and, you know, it sounds great when you say it, but I would like the Minister of Community Services to come to Richmond County and I would like the Minister of Health to come to Richmond County, and I would like the Minister of Education to come to Richmond County because, boy, let me tell you, those are the questions I get in my office and that's what people in my county want to hear about. They want to have their questions answered.
So I'm just curious, if this is the position the government is taking, if that's the approach from here forward about having to bring the information to the people - which sounds great - are you in a position as a Minister of the Crown to indicate whether your colleagues in their respective departments will be undertaking similar speaking tours of the province in education campaigns as to what you've undertaken in your department?
MR. CLARKE: What I can tell, Mr. Chairman, to my honourable colleague is, you know, I have not known of anyone that has not welcomed the Minister of Justice and Attorney General going into their community and wanting to have dialogue with them and, again, that's an initiative that I undertook. It's an initiative that I went to my colleagues and wanted to do. It's one that I'm going throughout the regions of this province to do. That's why I'm doing town hall meetings and at those town hall meetings it's an opportunity for people who have other issues reflecting the portfolio of Justice that they can raise as well with me and I know that my colleagues go to various regions of Nova Scotia to deal with the issues. So depending on what the priorities and the plans and the initiatives are, and the programs that are being developed, people have been travelling this province.
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I know, you mentioned the Minister of Community Services, but she has been on any number of initiatives around the province of late and that's specific to her portfolio. I can speak to what I do within mine and that's my direct response. Again, no one asked me to tour the province. That's something I felt I wanted to do if I was going to look to build and have credibility around the campaign and also to explain what we're doing within the Justice portfolio. So it's not for me to speak on behalf of other ministers but I know everyone is dealing with things.
I see the minister here today in Canso in terms of dealing with issues that affect that community and the response to that. There are initiatives that people have been there to respond to in every corner of this province. So I think the ministers are where they need to be, when they need to be there, appropriate to the circumstance and I'll do that wherever I can and, as you know, I'm very comfortable and very happy to be in Richmond County as well and would welcome the opportunity to talk about some of the programs and how we can help in that area, too.
MR. SAMSON: With all due respect, Minister, the people in Nova Scotia, when there was an escape of Mr. Carvery here, were looking for you to be prepared to respond and assure the people of Nova Scotia. As we all know, you were not in a position to be able to do that at the time and there have been a number of wrongful escapes and a number of Justice issues and one of the concerns that we've raised, and I've raised with you today, is that there are problems to be dealt with in your department and while it's all good to say you want to go around the province to speak to Nova Scotians, Nova Scotians need assurances that they have a Minister of Justice who takes his job seriously other than the Youth Criminal Justice Act and is prepared to deal with issues as they come up.
So I simply leave that with you as a concern that has been raised with me, that while you're speaking to chambers of commerce, inmates are running the streets of Halifax and that's something that no one wants to see. I think you need to, hopefully, keep that in mind that Nova Scotians needed assurances at that time and their minister wasn't to be found to give those assurances and so the fact that Mr. Carvery is still on the lose I guess causes concern for all of us. As part of this campaign, you spent $33,000. How much is in your budget this year to continue this campaign?
MR. CLARKE: There was $25,000 set aside for this year.
MR. SAMSON: For this year?
MR. CLARKE: Yes.
MR. SAMSON: That mostly will be taken up in travel I take it?
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MR. CLARKE: That and public education, so between that with regard to communicating to the public, any specific travel associated with that, and the community meetings that are held that will facilitate those.
MR. SAMSON: As far as maintenance enforcement, have you increased the budget at all in the area of maintenance enforcement, either to hire more caseworkers or provide better support to that division of your department?
MR. CLARKE: The answer is yes.
MR. SAMSON: Do you have a budget amount?
MR. CLARKE: Yes, I'm just getting that for you now. Bear with me for a moment, Mr. Chairman. So for the upcoming year we've increased three FTEs and the budget has gone up approximately $600,000 as well.
MR. SAMSON: What is that for, outside of the three full-time equivalents?
MR. CLARKE: It's primarily for the three staff and then the associated operating costs but that's applied not for three staff but across the division.
MR. SAMSON: So that would be salary increases, the Civil Service increase that everyone gets, that's all part of that? So that's your regular costs, regular yearly costs plus the cost of three extra full-time employees?
MR. CLARKE: Yes, that's correct.
MR. SAMSON: Where will those three employees be located?
MR. CLARKE: Those three, right now the three have been approved in terms of the budget but subject to that, it has not been predetermined where they're going to be.
MR. SAMSON: So you've got three new ones but you . . .
MR. CLARKE: Now, I would assume normally but predominantly there are 51 there. So they're normally positions that are around the province. (Interruptions) So there are a number of offices around the province and, again, it hasn't been finalized and whether that frees up more work or in terms of regional pressures. One of the things that I can look at and be able to follow up is where the pressures are and where they would be filled in.
MR. SAMSON: I can tell you the pressures are everywhere when it comes to maintenance enforcement . . .
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MR. CLARKE: Yes, they are.
MR. SAMSON: . . . because of the fact that the average worker is handling I believe around 800 cases per worker, is just a phenomenal amount, and it's unbelievable. I can tell you, minister, it's great to go around the province and talk about youth crime and hear about crime issues but it would be good if you took the time as well to listen to single parents and hear about having one, two, three or more children and not having maintenance payments being made for months at a time, if not years at a time, and what they're going through because I'm sure they would certainly be able to give you quite a bit of information about what life is like for them and their families because of the issues around maintenance enforcement.
You've spent a lot of time talking about the discussions you've had with Ottawa about the Youth Criminal Justice Act. I wonder if you could tell us what discussions you had with Ottawa or with your provincial colleagues about better harmonization of maintenance enforcement throughout Canada?
MR. CLARKE: One of the areas that, I guess with that, and as the honourable Chair and members of the committee would know, in dealing with any portfolio, one accepts the responsibility and accountability that goes with that. I would want to say I don't shirk that responsibility or try to wallpaper over any of the realities of some of the challenges we have to face. I think one of the things that comes with the leadership of that is trying to pinpoint those areas and address them, deal with them fully and if some of them require a full review, that is what is occurring, so we can have a very clear path forward.
I will say to the honourable member, about maintenance enforcement, one of the things we are looking at is specific to a unit to deal with reciprocal arrangements around maintenance enforcement so that we can deal with other jurisdictions. It has been at least in a positive go forward, the caseload average, as he has indicated, in 2006 was 798 and in 2007 was down to 692 and in 2008 to 574. So as we provide extra capacity we are also providing the ability to deal with some of the caseload issues that you have addressed and I think that is a positive trend. The other positive trend is the fact that the compliance levels are going up and in 2006 there was just under 80 per cent collection rate and, again, that is a positive direction forward.
As you indicated, of any area that I deal with, with regard to a political point of view, are inquiries around maintenance enforcement because for those that it's not working or those that they have a challenge or a frustration or a late payment, as you know, all of us experience that and deal with that on an ongoing basis. One of the frustrations some people have, of course, is somebody out of province where we have to have further involvement and, again, right now, of the 19,000 files last year - just over 19,000 - just over 2,000 of those were out of province. Again, we are looking at having and are in the process of establishing
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a unit to deal with reciprocal files and how to respond to other jurisdictions and have them respond to ours.
MR. SAMSON: Do we have any reciprocal agreements with any other Canadian jurisdictions?
MR. CLARKE: Right now, my understanding is that there is an overriding process and policy in place that we enforce other jurisdictional orders and vice versa. That is why a reciprocal unit is being put in place to try to deal with those and to centralize those items but I will have to inquire specific to a formalized agreement.
MR. SAMSON: If I am not mistaken, we passed legislation a few sessions ago, I believe, establishing a uniform code here in Canada dealing with maintenance enforcement. I was curious to see where that is at but I am troubled by the fact that it doesn't seem to go very far within the fact that there is not even a unit that has been set up yet to deal with these because you say there are over 2,000. My numbers tell me there are over 3,000 orders that are for other jurisdictions. That's not a surprising number because I am sure the minister would be aware from his riding in Cape Breton, just how many of our residents are not working here in Nova Scotia. Although they may reside here, they are in other jurisdictions, Alberta being a primary one and Ontario being another primary one. After we passed that legislation, I had assumed that this province would have signed agreements with both of those provinces for sure but you are saying that is not the case.
MR. CLARKE: What I am saying is that we have been responding and resourcing our staff more and are dealing with all of those so the caseload factor is coming down. The reciprocal unit is being established so they are following up on that. I will discuss with the director of the Maintenance Enforcement Program the specifics and provide them to you with regard to the current status.
MR. SAMSON: I appreciate that and let me just say, my experience in dealing with the workers of Maintenance Enforcement, for their caseloads, it's incredible the work they do. They have gotten back to me with lightning speed and I certainly commend them for what they do with the caseloads they find but when they can't find someone and they have no means of tracking down a payer, there is not much they can do so we need to do something as legislators to make their job easier in tracking down people and not having people play this cat and mouse game with maintenance enforcement and not honouring their obligations. I encourage the minister to continue to pursue that matter.
I know my colleague, the member for Halifax Clayton Park has some questions on the victims' services fund and I'm not sure if she'll have the opportunity to do that or not, so let me ask this, how much revenue is generated by victims' services each year? Or, let's say for last year, for example.
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MR. CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, I'm just going to try and get that number. In the past fiscal year, it was $1,364,756 and that is up over 2006-07, which was $1,098,216 and up over 2005-06 from $921,022.
MR. SAMSON: So it's going up every year. My understanding - I haven't been in a courtroom for a little bit, but pretty much almost every offence now, every fine that you're charged with, you're going to get the - I think it's called a victim impact fee, if I'm not mistaken - and you're getting a surcharge on almost every fine we have here in Nova Scotia. Is that not correct?
MR. CLARKE: It's a victim surcharge, yes.
MR. SAMSON: A victim surcharge, that's what it's called now, okay. Last year I think you said you generated $1,064,000 - did I get that right?
MR. CLARKE: No. $1,364,000.
MR. SAMSON: So, $1.3 million, let's say. Of that $1.3 million, how much was spent on the victims' services program?
MR. CLARKE: For the Child Victim/Witness Program, it was just over $48,000. For regional programs, it was $1.3 million, so we would have paid out more than we took in with regard to that. I mean, it was $1.36 million versus $1.37 million.
MR. SAMSON: Let's just go with that $1.3 million, how much of that would have been spent on staff costs?
MR. CLARKE: The total program budget basically for 2007-08 was $2.7 million. Roughly half comes from the fund and half from the department.
MR. SAMSON: As far as the collection is concerned, from last year to this year, are you increasing that fee that's charged once people are charged and fined?
MR. CLARKE: The victim surcharge?
MR. SAMSON: Is that victim surcharge going up?
MR. CLARKE: The answer to that is, yes, it will. The fee itself is 15 per cent, but it's related to fines, but the fines have been going up.
MR. SAMSON: That's right. The 15 per cent is what it was last year and the year before?
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MR. CLARKE: Correct.
MR. SAMSON: So, it's a percentage of the total fine that's given. Okay.
Are you aware there are serious issues that have been encountered by a number of families, especially in a couple of cases of very violent crimes, that have had great difficulty in accessing services through the victims' services branch?
MR. CLARKE: Yes, I am.
MR. SAMSON: Right now there are limits on how much money you can be given for counselling, there's a time limit on how long you have to access this type of funding - I think it's safe to say, and the minister can disagree with me if he doesn't agree, when Nova Scotians will be made aware that families of murder victims are being told, you've got two years to get counselling and then that's it, you have to be better after that because the province is no longer going to assist you. Are you prepared to take a look at victims' services to see what can be done, especially in the case of violent crimes and their impact on the family members involved?
MR. CLARKE: I know, in one instance, just to that, most recently, I just responded to a situation and I indicated in that letter that I would keep the matter open. As well, there has been concern about who is eligible for counselling. There are two other aspects of that, previously it was allowable up to $65 an hour, that has now gone to $85 an hour, although the total amount is $2,000. But, for the wider group of individuals beyond what would be considered immediate family, with the doctor's verification of the need for counselling, that can be expanded.
And, to your question of reviewing and looking at it, I guess the answer's yes because I've indicated by writing probably last week that I would allow for that extension beyond two years.
MR. SAMSON: You would allow for the extension beyond two years?
MR. CLARKE: Yes.
MR. SAMSON: Are you prepared to also lift the cap on how much money will be permitted?
MR. CLARKE: Not at this time. In fact, the letter I responded to, they had not accessed the program and I've allowed them to carry that forward - just to be clear about what it is I said, it wasn't just about time running out, they hadn't accessed the program at that time and I indicated that when they do, that they would be allowed to do so.
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MR. SAMSON: I know I don't have much time left, but, a lot of the programs - it's not an accusation towards you or anyone in your department, but a lot of the programs we've established in Nova Scotia, when we talk about family members, it has been based on your traditional blood lines. In 2008, that's not practical anymore. Families in Nova Scotia are a whole new creation than what we would have known many years ago and it's essential that your department and the staff at victims' services be prepared to recognize people that may not be directly related through blood lines, but for all intents and purposes, have been raised together or have spent their entire lives together. While we may not call them true blood lines, brother and sister, for all practical purposes, they have been.
One of the issues raised with us is that definition is creating a problem in who can access this counselling and the services under victims' services. I would strongly urge you, in fact, I am hoping to be able to meet with your victims' services branch to raise these concerns with them directly and hear from them exactly what's being done or what opportunities are there. I'm pleased to see that you're prepared to extend your limit, $85 an hour is an increase, but coming from a legal background, something tells me no counsellors are going for $85 an hour anymore. Especially if it's dealing with individuals who have been exposed to violent crime.
I think we need to be more realistic with the rates that are being provided for counsellors in light of what the going rate is today, which I don't have offhand, but my understanding is it's well above $85 an hour. And, again, the definition of who would be able to qualify for these programs.
When you say that there's a review that's being done, is that just an internal review? Or, is it a review by yourself? Who is conducting that review?
MR. CLARKE: Actually, it's internal to the department and the professionals within it. I think you've kind of highlighted the fact that everyone is aware there's a changing dynamic within society and how things are structured. We've also changed the regulations to allow for family counselling. It would allow for a family group that classifies themselves as family, to your point of definition, to allow for that group counselling in terms of the people that would be associated there.
Just one other thing that I think is also important is there has been an additional $175,000 added for youth counselling as well. That's another area where I know we all appreciate, there's a lot of vulnerability and a need to address issues at that front. To my honourable colleague, that is something that I know, I, as minister, am willing to look at and have them willing to take a look at and try to respond as best I can. But, also know, at the same time, the officials that are within the department and also beyond our department because they work collaboratively, as well, with Community Services on the components that go over the desire to have a further review.
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I also would encourage my honourable colleague, Mr. Chairman, to follow up on what he has mentioned to sit down with our officials and to have that discussion and that is something we can forward further on.
MR. SAMSON: The only last comment I would make, Mr. Minister, it would be very useful as well for us, as parliamentarians, if your department could provide us, as well, with a breakdown of what is being done in other provinces when it comes to victims' services, just to see where we are as a province and see if we are in line with other provinces or if there are other programs or other approaches that are being used that we could look to adopt here in our province.
I still have another minute? I think that is close enough there, Mr. Chairman. I have to go ask questions to the Minister of Health over there now. So thank you, Mr. Minister.
MR. CLARKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and honourable member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.
MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to clarify, the House Leader for the NDP is giving me instructions. Although I don't question them, I sometimes wonder if he can tell the time. Do we have 23 more minutes remaining?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.
MR. ESTABROOKS: And if I may ask my Liberal colleague, is Ms. Whalen interested in any of this time? (Interruption) When she comes in, we will share the time with her, if it is appropriate, for sure,if I may, Mr. Chairman?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you. My friend, the member for Halifax Citadel has a couple of questions but I would like to, first of all, make a couple of comments about maintenance enforcement and if I am out of line, well you are going to tell me anyway.
I have been so fortunate over the years as an MLA to tell you that I have worked on many occasions with an outstanding civil servant by the name of Cheryl Payne. She works in Maintenance Enforcement and I want to pass on to people in the department, she is a pro, she is efficient, she is extremely professional and she is someone who I hope other young people involved in maintenance enforcement look to for guidance because she has been exemplary in her working relationship with me, as an MLA, to the extent that, believe it or not, Mr. Minister, we even shared home telephone numbers, but that's another topic.
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I would like to, if I may, turn to a topic that I know my predecessor, who is currently in Vietnam, is probably monitoring whether I am going to bring this up and that is concerning thesituation with Crown Attorneys. How many vacancies do we have in the Crowns at this time, Mr. Minister?
MR. CLARKE: Just give me a moment, Mr. Chairman. I will get the information for my colleague. We have approximately 85 with four competitions outstanding at this time.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you. I find myself advocating on behalf of some of my friends from the legal profession. I thank you for that information, firstly. The other concern I have is my friend, the member for Halifax Fairview, is unable to be here this evening because of another commitment, has expressed concerns around our caucus table and publicly, in the February 7th edition of The ChronicleHerald, front page, an article written by Amy Smith, if I may quote, "New Democrat MLA Graham Steele said the Public Prosecution Service obviously isn't getting enough resources to do its job." Now I have asked Mr. Steele to expand on that. He has. If he was here he would be asking you to expand on it. What is the concern that Mr. Steele has addressed here on not enough resources? Would you share that concern?
MR. CLARKE: I think subsequent to the timing of that article, there would have been both from a human resource point of view, a wage settlement that was resolved, that resulted in just over, it nets to 16 per cent wage increase for the Crowns and part of that, as you indicated on behalf of your colleague, is the fact of looking at the retention issue of professionals within the Public Prosecution Service as Crowns to look at where they are in relation to their colleagues within the legal profession. Also, I spoke to a wider aspect of making sure that we all have the relevancies in terms of professional capacity in all the various components of the judicial system. Again, that is something that I think has been addressed in a substantial manner to where the concerns were at the time of that article to where we are today.
MR. ESTABROOKS: I thank the minister for addressing that because of the fact I've been in contact with some Crown Attorneys and it's a numbers game, it's a competitive game - if you can call it a game - it's a competitive business to making sure we get the most qualified people to handle this huge responsibility, we have to pay them as well as we can, for sure.
Before I turn the microphone over to my friend, the member for Halifax Citadel, I'd like to thank you for the prompt response that you've given to the Gallant-Blackburn family when it comes to victims' services. I look forward to continuing to work with you on that file because of the incident involved and I'm very sure that you're aware of the particulars, so I want to thank you personally. I know I'm not her MLA but I play hockey with her husband and he brings it up every night in the hockey room. Help me on and off the ice, if you would.
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Mr. Chairman, could I turn the microphone over to the member for Halifax Citadel, please?
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Citadel.
MR. LEONARD PREYRA: Thank you. I had not expected to have another opportunity to ask the minister some questions and I appreciate it - I'm not sure he will.
MR. CLARKE: Oh, I always appreciate it.
MR. PREYRA: I will give it another crack. When I left off previously, I had asked the minister about a navigator program that was being established in downtown Halifax that essentially tried to provide outreach services to street-involved youth. The minister kindly agreed, after the bell, to provide that information or to get some of the partner departments to provide that kind of information.
It is a really very important, innovative program. The department is involved to a certain extent, as being one of the partners that's funding the pilot project. But it does highlight, certainly my experience with this project, highlights what Justice Nunn was saying about the various silos that exist between the five and six departments that are responsible for youth justice issues.
A lot of youth and their families just fall between the cracks, the services are often out there, but they can't get access to them. In part, this exercise that we're engaged in and I hope the minister will help us with, is to try and identify these resources so that we can help the outreach workers who are going to help those youth. I thank the minister for his offer about that information.
I do have some questions relating to the Nunn inquiry recommendations. In particular, I'll just pick a couple of them to get a progress report. Recommendation 26, in particular, talks about the problem of coordination between the various departments. Justice Nunn said that part of the problem with the Archie Billard case was that many of these departments separately knew there were problems, but didn't coordinate with the others and so, essentially, he and his family fell between the cracks.
Recently, I was at a criminal justice lawyers' meeting and it seemed that not much has changed - there still is that lack of coordination and they identified in particular the breakdown in communication, or the lack of communication, between Community Services and Justice. I'm wondering if there's anything that has been put in place to deal with those types of issues?
MR. CLARKE: To my honourable colleague for Halifax Citadel, I think we've all experienced at one time or another, regardless of the issue, the example of silos and specific
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as well, to your reference to the navigator program. I would look at, when we consciously and knowingly start connecting the dots and for what reason and why people have to be engaged. It isn't about people operating in isolation because often people have specific program areas that they're responsible for. Part of that, I guess too, the most current question of the Nunn Commission, is working from a peer group point of view, like having peers from various units outside of different departments that are able to converse and speak to one another and to be aware of the various things that occur.
With the Nunn Commission, part of what we've attempted to do is to make sure that even through our strategies, we indicate where we have to engage with other departments and why, how we can deliver more effectively our programming so that we can do that. I know there are two specific portfolios I deal with the most - number one is the Department of Community Services and the second department would be Health in terms of a lot of issues that would overlap.
I know that both my other colleagues and myself share and do recognize the need, if this is going to be effective, to work across those areas as ministries, but also with our officials. With the Nunn Commission, in terms of when I say connect the dots as well, the Nunn Commission, from a positive point, is that it is a living, working document. It wasn't just recommendations, there's 34 and what do you do? I'm trying to work within the Justice side, in terms of the seven that deal with the Parliament of Canada, which is part of the campaign I'm going around the province right now.
When we talk to the Government of Canada, it is about bringing it back and connecting the dots to resourcing what we're asking for as well and how that can help out. We're also dealing with, when you take it over to another step in terms of where some of these individuals - whether that's setting up the specialty courts for mental health and for a drug court and looking at how we can best resource the system for people.
I don't know if there's a specific example the honourable member would have, but I can say that I do recognize we need to do that. I do have a much more comprehensive, sort of, template, I use with the Nunn Commission itself. It is something that, not on an annual basis, but also dealing with that silo issue that you've referenced, is something I'm very conscious of and I actually monitor, by recommendation, our progress. So, I'd be happy - even separate from this - to talk about where we are with the progress on that and if there are any specific things you'd like to see.
MR. PREYRA: I would like to see that and I appreciate the minister's . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Time has expired for the NDP caucus.
The honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park.
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MS. DIANA WHALEN: I'm glad to have just a few minutes to speak to the minister and ask a few questions and perhaps get some answers here. I guess it would be no surprise that I'd like to speak about victims' services. I'm glad I got back in time to do so.
I have a number of questions, one of which - I did understand that you've already explained to my colleague that the hourly rate's gone up from $65 to $85 per hour that's been approved.
MR. CLARKE: That's correct.
MS. WHALEN: We had made that case at Public Accounts. There's a huge gulf between what was allowed per hour and what it actually costs to get a qualified psychologist or therapist to work in this area. I would like to say, I still think that we should be looking at a figure closer to the reality of the hourly rate, particularly for some people - the cases that have come to my attention were families who were victims of homicide or related to homicides, where it's so severe and so traumatic that you need somebody with special skills. You cannot go to just anybody.
I'd like to ask the minister whether or not you've looked at the list of approved therapists or counsellors that are handed out to victims of crime because there's no way for a person to really weed through that and know which person they should call. Have you been having a look at that and can you tell me that you're going to review the kind of information that's given to the families of victims?
MR. CLARKE: To my honourable colleague, first, I know that this is something you're very passionate about, but also have been living it in terms of helping people and wanting to help them navigate and also get to better resources.
To go to the broader aspect of the desire to try and get relevant information, yes, that is something that - subsequent to our discussions and also the type of information, plain language to try and assist with people understanding what actually all of this would entail.
MS. WHALEN: So, will you be reviewing the letters, for example, that go out - the applications, the forms? They're very bureaucratic, Mr. Minister, very bureaucratic. They reference sections of the Act and for a person who's in trauma, suffering grief, I'm telling you, people cannot navigate it. They just can't.
MR. CLARKE: And I have recognized that while there are probably technical things people want to adhere to in terms of what is or isn't in regulation available to them, I do also recognize a plain language guide that can help people from a navigational point of view. So I think there needs to be probably a complementing document that people can sit down and look at. There is the requirement to make sure that people are fully aware of what is or isn't available by regulation.
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MS. WHALEN: So you will reconsider that?
MR. CLARKE: In terms of some language, yes.
MS. WHALEN: Yes. I have another direct question. I know my time is going to fly fast because this is half the time I get at the Public Accounts Committee. So I wanted to know whether or not you have looked directly at training for the people who are on the desk at victims' services? I had the privilege of talking to a few people, trying to get information, and again I wonder if they have training to deal with people in grief. I wasn't a grieving person and I was having a hard time making them understand the severity of what we were talking about. I believe they need it and I would like to know if they get it?
MR. CLARKE: The answer to the training is yes and your colleague, the member for Richmond, had talked about, you know, dealing with the sensitivities that are required and so one of the things that we are dealing with is trying to look at, and he had talked about the fact of what defines, in this modern day context, what is a family versus not a family, sometimes family are not necessarily blood relations, and that's why we've changed the regulations to allow for family counselling in terms of that group. That's why we need to make it clear to people, we are trying to do that, and will be doing that. So the answer to your question is yes and there are a couple of immediate things with regard to what will be made available to people in terms of explaining what can happen. I indicated a case you would be aware of, I won't go into the details but you'll know of what I speak, indicating that I would extend the time period beyond two years for them to be able to access any programming related to that.
MS. WHALEN: Will that be a case-by-case decision then, going beyond the two years?
MR. CLARKE: Well, in this particular case, as you know, it is very specific.
MS. WHALEN: It is.
MR. CLARKE: Again maybe, Mr. Chairman, what I'm trying to answer is all of those are part of what we're looking at and in dealing with those cases, dealing with the training associated with some of the issues, because I would say what we've also experienced, and this is regrettable, it's a reality that neither you nor I can change immediately but violent crimes are on the increase. The impact of violent crime is going to affect people in a social, you know, psychology point of view, to the point that it does change the need to look at how those things are delivered. So, again, as part of that I would say to the honourable member, those are things and I know, Mr. Chairman, in the light of time, there are items that she'll want to provide in writing to me and I'm more than willing to be open-minded to things we can do in a practical way to help out.
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MS. WHALEN: One of the questions I would have is on the timeliness of the response with Victim Services. When a crime has been committed, it takes several weeks at least to go through this process that's in place right now because you check with the police first and verify the crime. The family that is suffering has to fill in all the forms and I might mention multiple forms, one for each family member even when there are children who are minors, you have to fill in a separate form for each and every one of them, and often the family just can't even deal with that for the first number of weeks. So nobody is appearing at their door and giving them help. So is there any thought to taking some of your FTEs and ensuring that somebody on your staff can be a counsellor who could come in and troubleshoot at that moment, I mean arrive at the time of the crime and help them?
MR. CLARKE: Well, Mr. Chairman, the answer is yes. I mean there are two aspects - definitely in terms of the ability to respond to individuals, especially at a very vulnerable time to them, but at the same time we have to maintain our administrative requirements that are necessary. So we have to look at where the balance is there and recent incidents have presented us by virtue of the advocacy, the honourable member herself has been doing on behalf of individuals, and they have not gone on deaf ears. There have been responses wherever reasonable and, again, I will commit that we are continuing to look at how we best respond and at the same time adhering to the legal and other requirements we have.
I'm not trying to in any way, shape or form put up barriers to access services that are needed. So I will commit, and I know if time is of a factor. . .
MS. WHALEN: It is.
MR. CLARKE: . . . that you can be assured that we are committed to trying to provide improved access, at the same time, looking at how do we do that so we have our requirements that are met but at the same time, people feel and understand that it isn't the rigidity of a process that seems cold, rather than trying to make sure that people are all treated the same.
MS. WHALEN: I understand that but not all crimes are the same and sometimes the shock and the impact is much more difficult. So there needs to be a mechanism where, even though you are filling your administrative needs, I think somebody else should be fulfilling it on behalf of the family. Somebody should be coming to them and offering that sort of hand-holding and support.
MR. CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, one of the challenges we face is that I have another instance, again, I will talk in broad terms, where the family didn't want to have engagement, wanted to deal with that within their own unit and were using their faith community, in this case. So it is difficult.
MS. WHALEN: I understand.
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MR. CLARKE: It is difficult, you know, so you can't impose yourself on them.
MS. WHALEN: Well, you can't force it on them but at the same time, I don't think they should be denied because they are not able to fill in the forms. I can tell you, as the MLA trying to help, it is really difficult to even assist because for me to get the list of all of the counsellors, it was just as difficult to understand as it would have been for them and I wasn't in shock. It's very hard and your department won't give any assistance to guide, even an advocate, to the right kind of counsellor because you feel that is kind of some sort of procurement violation, that you are showing favouritism to one counsellor over another. That certainly wasn't what I was asking. I was asking who has the experience to deal with this kind of a situation. The response I got, concerning which one is, you know that you can't play favourites among your list of counsellors, really was inadequate.
MR. CLARKE: I would say to the honourable member, Mr. Chairman, one of the things in terms of streamlining and providing access, there are, you know, even trying to provide people with an ability to get a ready message, if they want to develop, there are Web-based opportunities we have to try to give people the opportunity to send out a message, they are looking, allow people to respond. There may be ways to streamline it and still, at the same time, adhering to the requirements we have because there are privacy matters you have to protect.
But I do understand the honourable member's desire, and, indeed, wanting the outcome for improving the process. I will continue to commit to trying to find out, wherever we can, to make those improvements because . . .
MS. WHALEN: Can you tell me how many FTEs you have who serve Victim Services? Just how many full-time equivalent bodies.
MR. CLARKE: Fifty-one but the budget is to incrementally increase by three and that would take us to a budget . . .
MS. WHALEN: And that is just in Victim Services? That's further, isn't it?
MR. CLARKE: Oh, sorry, I have to correct myself. That was my Maintenance Enforcement. We were talking a lot of Maintenance Enforcement earlier, sorry. Victim Services, my apologies.
MS. WHALEN: Yes, because I would think it is in the twenties somewhere.
MR. CLARKE: No, my apologies, it's 26.8 positions.
MS. WHALEN: I thought I was really effective, you were up to 51.
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MR. CLARKE: No, 26.8. My apologies on that, colleague.
MS. WHALEN: That's okay, 26.8?
MR. CLARKE: Yes, and the budget will increase by over $0.5 million this year to over $3 million.
MS. WHALEN: More than $3 million.
MR. CLARKE: Yes.
MS. WHALEN: And that is staffing and counselling. How much would your counselling budget be?
MR. CLARKE: That would be $268,000.
MS. WHALEN: That is pretty small in terms of the $3 million, isn't it? Percentage-wise, 10 per cent? Less than 10 per cent.
MR. CLARKE: The other aspect is with the youth, the children, the victims, $175,000 with regard to providing them with a program. That is in collaboration with the Department of Community Services.
MS. WHALEN: Okay. That is with Community Services.
MR. CLARKE: Yes.
MS. WHALEN: I just feel that it is fairly small. Can you tell me about the $2,000 limit? If it's not used in the first two years, is there any possibility that that could still be just carried on until people have at least exhausted their $2,000?
MR. CLARKE: In the most recent matter that I wrote back to individuals last week, I indicated that that could be carried forward on that case.
MS. WHALEN: Particularly where no charges have been laid or if the case hasn't come to court in that period of time, which must happen.
MR. CLARKE: I do believe . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, the time for estimates for Monday, May 5th, has expired. Thank you.
Closing comment, Mr. Minister.
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MR. CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank my honourable colleagues and there are issues that have been raised that will be ongoing topical matters specific to the programs and operations within the Department of Justice and I do appreciate that a lot of these questions that are raised are reflective of the ongoing work and, most appropriately so, of MLAs and how they do their job. What I would note is that we are trying to make advancements and to move forward with next steps. I won't have all the answers nor will I have probably full satisfaction on all matters but at least we are making strides to make improvements and there are areas where we are now starting to excel in the country, but we will always have more to do and I do welcome individual involvement by the members and look forward to ongoing dialogue whether it is in this Chamber or elsewhere. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
Shall Resolution E13 stand?
Resolution E13 stands.
Resolution E19 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $427,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the FOIPOP Review Office, pursuant to the Estimate.
Resolution E21 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $2,205,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Human Rights Commission, pursuant to the Estimate.
Resolution E25 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $359,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Nova Scotia Police Complaints Commissioner, pursuant to the Estimate.
Resolution E30 - Resolved that a sum not exceeding $18,221,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Public Prosecution Service, pursuant to the Estimate.
Shall the resolutions carry?
The resolutions are carried.
[The subcommittee adjourned at 8:20 p.m.]
