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HALIFAX, THURSDAY, MAY 1, 2008
SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY
4:00 P.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Patrick Dunn
MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Patrick Dunn): Welcome everyone. We'll begin the resolutions on estimates.
Resolution E1 - Resolved that a sum not exceeding $59,563,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Agriculture, pursuant to the Estimate, and the business plans of the Nova Scotia Crop and Livestock Insurance Commission and the Nova Scotia Farm Loan Board be approved.
I welcome the Minister of Agriculture here today and I will pass over the proceedings to you for your opening comments and introduction of any staff.
HON. BROOKE TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I want to say that it's a pleasure to be here today and good afternoon, colleagues. To my left is the director of financial services, Weldon Myers. Good afternoon, Weldon. To my right is the deputy Minister of Agriculture, Paul LaFleche. If it's okay, I would ask Paul to do the introductions of staff that are here today.
MR. PAUL LAFLECHE: Yes, we have Bob Mosher, manager of finance, based out of the Truro office; Weldon Myers, you've already introduced, the director at the Central Service Unit; Diane Kenney is the executive director of policy and planning for the department; Celeste Sulliman is the director of communications; Scott Lynch is planning and policy officer; and, Sherri Richard is the executive assistant to the minister. We did have Bonnie Rankin there, who will be back, whose is our legislative lawyer.
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MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Paul. I'm pleased to come before you today to talk about the Department of Agriculture. I do want to say thank you to the staff that Paul introduced and, of course, thank you to staff that isn't present with us today. I'm certainly well-served and this province is extremely well-served by the Department of Agriculture staff. I do want to extend my appreciation on that front.
Agriculture is an important contributor to the economic and social fabric of Nova Scotia, and developing competitive agriculture and food industries are a priority of the department. Agriculture is ideally positioned to make major contributions to a cleaner, greener environment and improved health and well-being of Nova Scotians.
Nova Scotia agriculture industry stretches well beyond our provincial boundaries with goods exported around the world. In order to achieve long-term success for the agriculture and food sector, we need to plan for the future. The potential success of the industry in the coming years depends heavily on the innovation of the agriculture sector and its ability to respond to emerging trends. These developments create economic growth and employment in rural communities.
The Department of Agriculture is committed to helping Nova Scotia's agriculture industry develop further with a view to a long-term, sustainable and profitable industry. This year, the department will pay particular attention to the beef and wine sectors. We want to position the industry to address environmental and regulatory challenges. As well, we will continue with the implementation of a revised governance structure at the Nova Scotia Agriculture College that will benefit the province's agriculture industry for years to come.
Agriculture contributes to the vision of a new Nova Scotia. The government, in its budget speech, recognizes that Nova Scotia has been built on our traditional industries. The path to 2020 recognizes the importance of these industries today and in the future. Our future looks bright. A healthy and prosperous agriculture sector translates into a healthy Nova Scotia and, of course, healthy Nova Scotians. We are working to assure the production of a safe and secure food supply. We are continuing to grow and develop a diverse agriculture and agri-food industry. The heritage and cultural value that the agriculture industry provides enhances the social and economic landscape of the province, especially in our rural communities.
Like many other industries, agriculture is moving briskly through a period of transition. We are feeling the impacts of globalization, which influences profitability in our ability to compete in commodity markets and as well a heightened regulatory environment dealing with the issues of food safety, animal health and welfare. Certainly there's been recently a lot of attention paid to the health and well-being of animals in the Province of Nova Scotia, be they farm animals or other animals. That element of the Department of Agriculture is handled under the Animal Cruelty Act.
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We are determined to address a number of environmental issues recognizing the need to balance industry development and protecting the environment. I do want to thank the Minister of Environment who is at our table here today, the member for Kings North, for not only taking an interest in his own portfolio - and doing an exceptional job, I might add - but as well he advocates strongly on behalf of the agriculture sector and offers lots of good counsel and advice to the minister and, from time to time, takes the opportunity to speak to staff members about issues that affect the whole Annapolis Valley. I do want to, again, repeat that I thank the minister and MLA for Kings North for his continued support and interest in the agriculture sector.
But, more and more consumers are driving the trends with the demand for diversity in the marketplace and new products that offer convenience and, of course, nutrition. Demographic shifts and an aging population place strains on the agriculture workforce, as do the expectation to adapt to technology and innovation and keep ahead of the competition curve.
The Department of Agriculture recognizes these challenges and at the same time acknowledges that Nova Scotia has established a business climate that supports winning conditions. This year's budget has a 4.5 per cent increase in monies for strategic investment over the 2007-08 budget. To me and I would trust, the agriculture community, that is a real demonstration of the government's commitment to the agriculture industry in this province.
Just to go back a little bit - I know we spoke at some length regarding the NSAC and the governance issue and some of the challenges they face under the current structure, but we like to refer to the NSAC as the apple of our eye. I'm very pleased with the support to date from the House members surrounding Bill No. 107 and the NSAC governance. This legislation will ensure the Nova Scotia Agriculture College and the agriculture industry continues to move progressively forward.
Currently, as a government owned and operated institution, the NSAC does not enjoy the same academic freedom or institutional autonomy experienced by similar post-secondary educations. This bill will solve that predicament. The model employed by almost all other post-secondary educational institutions is based on two primary principles - autonomy and academic freedom. Currently the NSAC has neither of those.
Limits on academic freedom and the inability to retain ownership of results are perceived as impediments to effective research, contracting and faculty retention and recruitment. The enhanced governance model will continue to reflect the mandate for agri-food and agriculture business education and services while ensuring the continued partnerships with industry and the NSAC continues. So, on that front, it's certainly a win-win situation.
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In 2006, Nova Scotia adopted some of the most stringent food regulations in Canada. The four pillars of food safety used in Nova Scotia are: unannounced inspections, education, complaint investigations and enforcement. Food inspectors conduct approximately 9,700 inspections each year in a variety of food facilities throughout the province. The department is currently working on an online data management system with the investment of $150,000 plus one FTE in this fiscal year.
This new data base will enable us to manage food safety information across the province in a more effective way. Over the last four years, consumer complaints have decreased by 28 per cent and reports of suspected food-borne illness have been reduced by 26 per cent. These efforts are part of government's broader environmental health protection program.
Nova Scotia's wine industry is a growing area for the agriculture industry. This is an exciting time for Nova Scotia's industry to build a reputation for niche and high end products. We are already seeing phenomenal success in our wine sector, as local wineries win national and international awards. Wine production has grown by about 300 per cent since 2000 and we anticipate the doubling of farm and cottage wineries by 2010. There are 26 growers in province with about 325 acres of grapes in production.
Nova Scotia is also one of the world's leading blueberry regions and some of us boast we are the leading blueberry region in the world, exporting 90 per cent of our annual crop. Just before I move to another commodity, I have had the opportunity to visit some of the blueberry producers' farms in Nova Scotia and, of course, Oxford Frozen Foods. While we are the world's leading blueberry exporter, I want to say and commend the blueberry producers for the incredible job opportunities that they provide Nova Scotians in the rural parts of our province.
Then there's apples. The province sells 35,000 metric tonnes of apples every year, worth about $50 million to the Nova Scotia economy. In March of this year, I signed an Orchards and Vineyard Transition program with the federal government, which is providing $3.8 million to the tree fruit and grape industry so they can adapt and grow to the changing markets. Based on the 60/40 federal-provincial split, the province's contribution is $1.5 million. Our provincial funds will be provided through programs such as the Honey Crisp Replant Program, Tech Development 2000, the popular Farm Investment Fund and the Agri-Food Industry Development Fund.
While the department encourages diversification within agriculture, we continue to support our more traditional sectors in the agriculture industry. We are providing short-term income support and a commitment to assist Nova Scotia's beef sector with the development and implementation of a strategic plan. We continue to deliver $1.9 million directly to the producer in the beef commodity through our programs and this Business Risk Management Division.
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I must say with respect that because of time constraints in Question Period, you know, you're actually many times unable to give perhaps the answer you would like and take the time that is required. So I would say to the NDP Agriculture Critic, I was very pleased that the Leader of the NDP brought forward a question today on agriculture and I hope through this presentation which isn't too much longer that some of the questions he raised will be answered.
Quite frankly, this government is, in fact, doing a lot for the agriculture sector in the Province of Nova Scotia. As well as the $1.9 million, and I know I have a couple of my colleagues at the table, I would want to thank them for their support when we brought forward the request for the $2 million to help the beef sector because, you know, it is a team effort - it isn't the Minister of Agriculture sitting there and saying, oh, give us the chequebook. We have a lot of pressures and I was very pleased that in spite of all the demands for health, education, energy, environment - you name it - that the government saw the necessity in helping the beef commodity.
Besides the farmer directly, we also are helping the farmer by supporting the Atlantic Stockyards which is a critical piece of infrastructure for both Nova Scotia and the Maritime cattle industry. Recently, the former Maritime cattle market out in Murrays Siding was purchased by Sean Firth. Sean is regarded by pretty near everybody in the beef industry to be one of the foremost knowledges and a lot of the farmers are extremely pleased that Mr. Firth has purchased the Atlantic Stockyards, changed the name to the Atlantic Stockyards, and the government is helping Sean to the tune of $100,000 to address some of the needs that are very apparent at the former Maritime Cattle Market. So that, again, will assist the agriculture sector in the Province of Nova Scotia.
As well, we are investing $750,000 in the agriculture industry vitalization strategy with $0.25 million slated for the beef industry and we will grow this investment to $1 million per year over the next three years. We continue to deliver the $1.9 million directly to the producers, as I had mentioned earlier, and it's important that we maintain our work with the Nova Scotia Cattle Producers in the development of their strategic plan which is being funded through our renewal initiative. Again, I want to mention relative to the beef sector that besides assisting the farmers who are certainly in need, including the farmer's name that was brought to the floor of the Legislature today by the Leader of the NDP, Mr. Sherman - as well as helping the farmer directly and indirectly through necessary changes at the cattle sale, we invested in the only federally inspected beef plant in Atlantic Canada in Borden.
We do, this government believes that there can be a long-term future and we will work with the beef sector to develop a long-term strategy and we believe that's vital to helping the industry transition to a model of self-sustainability. Generally the majority of the farmers, I think my deputy would concur and the Executive Assistant and others because we've met with many farmers over the course of the last two years - a goodly
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number, the majority seem to be willing to take that next step to change and we've very pleased. Unfortunately there are some who believe they can compete in the same model that they're in. It just won't work and it isn't reasonable to expect us to go to the taxpayers and ask that they continue to subsidize non-profitable operations. If there's a willingness to transition and move to profitability, we certainly will be there to help.
Can we do all things for all people? No, no, we have a number of pressures, certainly as a government, but we do want to help. I believe and I'm proud of the support we have been able to extend to the farming community, especially the beef commodity.
Shifting gears a little bit, we will continue to promote Buy Local, as it supports farm families as well. That is helping to develop our rural communities and, of course, our provincial economy. My department is investing $350,000 in the Select Nova Scotia campaign this year to continue to promote the benefits of local products and to increase opportunities for agriculture growth and development. We are focussing on the marketing of agri-food and seafood and value-added products to consumers, retailers, food service operators, institutions and government-operated facilities. Our investment in the last year's promotion delivered very good results. Consumer awareness of local products increased and more Nova Scotians indicate they view locally-produced products as better than imports and I certainly share that view. We will continue to build on the success of our initial investment.
I'd like to speak now, if I could, Mr. Chairman, for a few moments on an issue that is very, very important to me and, in fact, very important to this government and important to Nova Scotia and that is young entrants to the agriculture sector. I had mentioned earlier that our population is aging and the agriculture sector faces the challenge of attracting new participants into the industry. The department continues to fund a new entrance program with grants being paid out over a two-year period. It is vital that we attract young farmers to the industry to ensure its continued growth. We are doing that through a number of opportunities.
Not too long ago, Mr. Chairman, a dairy farmer in Antigonish County was kind enough to facilitate a meeting whereby we had the federal Minister of Agriculture in attendance, the Honourable Gerry Ritz; the MLA for Antigonish, the honourable Angus MacIsaac; federal minister and Member of Parliament for the area, Honourable Peter MacKay; and a goodly number of stakeholders from the agriculture industry in attendance. One of the main concerns that - yes, thank you, my Executive Assistant informs me that the dairy farmer who facilitated that meeting was Mary McCarron and Mary is primarily a dairy farmer but also runs a beef herd.
There were a number of farmers in attendance and they had an opportunity to bring forward some of the concerns that they have. There were young farmers, there were Nova Scotia Agriculture College students, there were dairy farmers, there were organic
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beef, there were young regular beef farmers and poultry - a really good cross-section. One of the major concerns that was brought to the table was the concern that there's really not enough thought given into succession planning in the agriculture industry. Out of all the woes and concerns and challenges that the farming community has, and there are a lot, that seemed to be - and I think most people would agree - one of the major concerns. We have to do more, we have to find ways to assist the - actually I would call them transitioning of ownership - so I'm very mindful of that. I did want to point that out and I want to thank Mary for organizing that meeting because it certainly was an opportunity for all levels of government to hear some of the concerns that the young farmers have. Of course that was supported by many of the "older" farmers around the table. They were nodding and saying yes, you have to do more, you have to help us. Anyway, it isn't lost on this government.
We do have a young entrants's program and the department continues to work with the Nova Scotia Federation of Agriculture, the NSAC, regional development authorities and rural communities to develop programs and options that encourage new entrants into the industry. The department recently awarded the first to a young farmer from the Annapolis Valley, Josh Herbin and I'm quite certain that the honourable member for Kings West did a resolution, may be just yesterday or this week at least, acknowledging and honouring the young farmer. He's a very pleasant young man. I had an opportunity to sit with him during the banquet where he accepted his award. Josh has identified a market for organic grown hops and he has what you call a farm-to-brewery relationship - I think he's working with six micro breweries. He's a great example of a young farmer being innovative and seizing upon a market opportunity. We certainly welcome more young farmers who are as visionary as Josh.
Nova Scotia's fur industry has enjoyed good years recently. The industry is internationally recognized as producing some of the best fur in the world and it's quite an accomplishment and quite a reputation. As of 2005, Nova Scotia accounted for 56 per cent of all fur production in Canada - yes, Nova Scotia. The vast majority of this fur comes from mink, which is one of our fastest growing agriculture sectors. Nova Scotia's mink are synonymous with quality and this region has evolved into a world-class player and a world-class producer.
As the largest producer of ranch mink and pelts in Canada, Nova Scotia is expected to produce in excess of 1.2 mink pelts this year. Depending on the market prices, that should generate over $70 million of export revenue for our province. Mink farming provides significant employment opportunities throughout the province and I would point out that over 80 per cent of the farms are located in southwestern Nova Scotia [Interruption] and yes, down in the banana belt. It is especially important to the area. With sustained growth many communities will continue to benefit from the ongoing work of the fur farmers in the province. I do believe that the largest mink producer actually resides in Kings West and he's very proud of that operation.
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I did have a chance to tour the facility and, Mr. Chairman, if I might, I think there's over 70 barns on that one site, and as well as being the biggest mink producers in the province, they are also the biggest poultry producer for ACA, I think it is shipping to ACA. (Interruption) Yes, Mr. Fillmore, a very interesting young man, and Mr. Blenkhorn as well, there is a partnership there. Mr. Blenkhorn's background comes in pretty handy when they are dealing with the management of such a large operation. You know, Mr. Chairman, I think he was for eight years a bank manager with RBC or something like that, so it is certainly a significant operation, one they're very proud of and one that we've very proud of, as a government.
Something else I must speak on, and I am slowly winding down here on the notes, Mr. Chairman - it's an issue that is being discussed on the world stage and, of course, locally and that's the supply management system. It's a major contributor to a stable supply of safely-produced Canadian food. The stability and profitability provided by supply management are important to our rural economy. Supply managed sectors account for well over $200 million of cash receipts in Nova Scotia. We continue to monitor the WTO agriculture negotiations to examine the impact on our supply-managed sectors.
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I had an opportunity to attend a number of AGMs recently, hosted by the supply managed commodities, and at each and every AGM, it was brought to my attention just how important the supply managed system is to these commodities. Whether it's turkey, chicken, milk, eggs, what have you, Mr. Chairman, it's extremely important for changes to tariffs and import quotas might allow excess imports which would challenge or eliminate our ability to operate the system here in the Province of Nova Scotia and, of course, in Canada.
I was very pleased that this week I put forward a resolution on supply management and it received the unanimous consent of the House, and I do thank colleagues for their support, but the department has been a strong supporter of Canadian producers using organized marketing systems, including supply management. To boost just a little bit - and I haven't thus far unless it's about the Province of Nova Scotia - I do from time to time on behalf of the Department of Agriculture of Nova Scotia, receive encouragement and congratulations for the stand that Nova Scotia takes at the federal-provincial-territorial meetings. Being the product of a dairy farm in the Musquodoboit Valley, I do recognize the significance of the system and it has evolved now to the point, the talks at least have evolved to the point where I think it's high time all levels of government and all political parties become very, very concerned about the talks that are taking place on the world stage.
I think we have to stand united and we have thus far, not just here in Nova Scotia but right across the country, and in fact I think it was the Bloc Québécois that put forward
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a motion supporting supply management in the Province of Quebec, maybe a couple of years ago, and in the House of Commons in Ottawa all Parties unanimously supported the resolution. So there certainly is a common front in Canada in support of supply management which is very important.
I would like to speak a little bit about the reference that was made today about a plan. The Leader of the Opposition brought forward a question regarding a plan that I had promised that this government would bring forward regarding agriculture - not specific commodities but regarding the whole sector. I would concur with the Official Opposition Leader that, in fact, during that forum over in Dartmouth, I did promise that this government, or should we at that time form the next government, we would bring forward a plan. Perhaps I could answer that question this way now that we have a little bit of time to articulate just what and where the Department of Agriculture is regarding the plan. I would acknowledge, too, that the NDP Agriculture Critic and, in fact, the Liberal Agriculture Critic is concerned about this issue as well.
A prosperous farming community contributes to the well-being of Nova Scotia. The Department of Agriculture is developing a strategic policy framework that will guide the department's operations and its work in the future. We have spoken directly with industry and other stakeholders on this work and we will continue to do so as we move forward. So that sounds like soon, very soon, but the Made In Nova Scotia strategic framework was initiated last year and the objective is to develop a framework internal to the department that describes a vision for agriculture. Our vision of agriculture embraces sustainable prosperity as set out in the government's New Nova Scotia, reorganizing the balance of economic development and environmental protection. Work is progressing nicely and I expect a draft framework document this Fall.
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, the Nova Scotia Department of Agriculture and the agriculture industry has a bright future. A future where our farming communities are profitable and producing foods demanded by consumers in Nova Scotia and elsewhere. A future where the agri-food industry continues to be the backbone of our rural communities, where Nova Scotians chose to live and raise their families. A future where farmers are key players in meeting our environmental goals for addressing climate change and long-term energy conservation.
If I could add - at the federal/provincial/territorial meetings, a number of farmers across the country have been telling their Agriculture Ministers and staff of the various Departments of Agriculture, that there is a need for governments, for all departments to recognize the incredible job that the farming community does for the provinces where they reside. A lot of the programs that are crafted and designed somehow leave the agriculture sector out in terms of eligibility.
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The federal Minister of Agriculture committed to have the federal government do a cross-departmental evaluation of what programs are actually in place in terms of new energy programs, in terms of ecological services and things of that nature. I think that's an acknowledgement that perhaps in the future, we will see the farming community given more opportunity to do some of the things and receive some support for some of the things that they have been doing all along, without getting any support for those types of energy initiatives, for example, or the good environmental practices that they employ.
A future where farmers are key players in meeting our environmental goals for addressing climate change and long-term energy conservation goals - we are laying the groundwork to achieve this future. We are strengthening innovation and commercialization of agriculture research through the NSAC. We are investing more in agriculture to help certain sectors deal with difficulty and transition, and continuing to invest in individual on-farm development. We are investing in growth sectors such as blueberries, wine and apples, we are investing in strategic and innovative projects that will benefit our agriculture industry overall.
Thank you for the opportunity to address you and thank you for your time.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for your opening comments, Minister Taylor. It is time for the department to entertain questions. I will pass it over to the NDP caucus.
The honourable member for Hants East.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could you give me the time right now, please?
MR. CHAIRMAN: I have 4:22.
MR. MACDONELL: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Minister, I appreciate your opening comments. I appreciate the help of your staff; nice to see them again. Last year when I questioned the minister, it wasn't you, it was the honourable Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture and actually, your deputy was new, freshly minted. I asked him at the time what his claim to fame was and I got a pretty good answer, actually, I was looking at it, I read the transcript.
I want to say that him and I have crossed paths on a few occasions in the past year. I find him kind of an interesting guy and I think maybe no slouch when it comes to some really innovative ideas. I think his grasp of the importance of the resource sector to the economy of the province is quite significant, as a matter of fact it was almost a breath of fresh air because it's the kind of things that I talk about that I figured, nobody listened to. One day he was showing me pie charts and trying to explain all of this to me and I really appreciated it. Something I had forgotten was his background in rural
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economic development that he mentioned last year. So I think it's good for your department to have the quality of people that you do.
I have to tell you, I'm really worried about the agricultural sector, very worried. As a matter of fact, I've been the Agricultural Critic for my caucus since 1998 and I like to think I've learned a lot, but I have watched an industry in demise since 1998. Your comments in your speech about moving through a period of transition - I think it's more like a period of devastation. I would like to know what your vision of the industry is?
Your government talks about 2020 and when it comes to eyesight we all look for that, so we would assume that means good vision. If the industry, I think, suffers the downward turn that it has suffered so far - even in the couple of years that you've been minister - if that was to continue till 2020, we probably wouldn't even have a department by then. I'd like to know if an 18-year-old walked up to you today and was interested in doing something in agriculture, where would you direct him? What would tell him, this is what's coming over the horizon, we're in the 21st Century?
MR. TAYLOR: It's a very good question. First of all, the honourable member reminded me that last year, unfortunately, I was unable to attend the Budget estimates and I want to thank all members of their patience and understanding during that time and no more so than thanking the Premier for his consideration and kindness. The Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, I do want to thank him, too. So thanks for bringing that up, John, they were certainly kind to me.
Getting back to your question, what would you tell an 18-year-old today. I think it would depend on what the question exactly was, if it was specific to dairy farming, for example. The reason I mention dairy farming is because from time to time we do hear that. Mom and Dad are getting a little older now and they've made an incredible investment in the farm. They would like to have some reward for their investment - for their sweat, for their blood, for all of the commitments they made to the farm. It's extremely difficult for me as a young person to take on the financial burden, plus do I really want to get into a 24-7, 365 days-a-year-type job and that's what it is on the farm, I can say that and it always has been a major commitment.
I guess if the decision was made that that is what they would like to do, that would be the first good signal because a lot of young people don't want to get into farming - there isn't an appropriate succession plan in place and there hasn't been for some time. We are working on that, as I mentioned earlier on. You would have to really understand the individual situation, you'd have to look at the return - obviously, young people aren't stupid. There are some opportunities.
I think that we do have a bright future where farming communities can be profitable - some are profitable and are producing foods that are in demand by consumers
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in Nova Scotia and elsewhere. But for a young person 18-years-of-age, they would have to take on an incredible debt load. I don't think any Party in Nova Scotia could promise that taking on farming wouldn't be financially challenging. You can't sugarcoat it, it's a fact and it doesn't matter what the commodity is, although the supply-managed sector seems to be more security as long as that system is in place, but it is frankly being threatened from time to time. It if was perhaps fur or wine or something along those lines, obviously, it would be a little easier. But where is the future? It is evolving.
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John, you mentioned yourself since 1998, you've watched it. It's not just Nova Scotia and I'm not content to say that but we're trying to work to bring forward a long-term strategy and we believe this Fall that framework will be in place. I think I said maybe two years ago, you just can't pull a plan out of the air; you really have to work with the commodities. Some commodities are doing quite well and they don't necessarily object to you supporting and helping them but there are times when they only want your moral support, if you will. They're not always asking for help and a handout.
If it is the pork sector, for example, I don't think anybody around this table would encourage a young person of 18 years of age to engage in the pork sector. I don't think anybody across this country would because it's going through, you might say, a crisis, to be quite frank.
There are opportunities in the agri-food industry and I believe in the traditional resource-based industries - agriculture, in our rural communities. It is a place where a lot of Nova Scotians do choose to live and raise their families. We see a future where farmers are key players in meeting our environmental goals for addressing climate change. We see a future where farmers are key players in meeting long-term conservation goals.
We believe that we're helping to lay the groundwork to achieve this vision. We are investing more in agriculture to help certain sectors. We're investing in strategic and innovative projects that will benefit the overall industry - I mentioned earlier, the beef sector, the growth sectors, wine and apples, fur. We're continuing to invest in individual on-farm development and we're strengthening innovation and commercialization of agriculture through research at the Nova Scotia Agricultural College.
MR. MACDONELL: I have to say that I recognize the problems in succession, in particular, the dairy farmers in my area. They want to get out and a young person can't get it - that's the dilemma that they face. I can think of one farm where if my memory is right, I think he told me he had $6 million in quota and that doesn't include the dairy herd, the land, the equipment, nothing else; that's just the quota. So sure, it's pretty difficult for a young person to even go to the Farm Loan Board because - I don't
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remember the number and maybe Mr. Lafleche or someone else will - I know the Farm Loan Board pretty well says, one cow will support x dollars of loan. We haven't genetically designed the animal that would support the kind of loans that we need, so it is a mountain to climb.
The issue around the pork industry - you said you wouldn't encourage someone to go into the pork industry. All aspects of the agricultural sector are related to the same things that every other industry are connected to and that is, people want to get a decent return on their investment. They want to make money.
I think people in the agriculture sector probably are willing to take a little bit of a hit for the lifestyle choices but not, I think, anymore, do they want to take a significant hit. So that means that in the hog sector, the industry has run into the problem that they can't get a price based on their cost of production which is what the supply management sector has been able to do.
If we look at agriculture in this province, 50 per cent of it is basically farm gate receipts, 50 per cent is supply-managed and 50 per cent is not supply-managed. We can definitely see which sector is not doing particularly well. Nova Scotians are going to eat pork, it's just not going to be Nova Scotian pork.
I'm a sheep producer, although I'm not necessarily trying to put lambs in the display case as much as I am trying to sell breeding stock. It's a registered pure-bred flock and so I really will be keener to sell breeding stock than to have my lambs go to Northumberlamb, say. With that said, it would really be something if the sheep producers, if there was as much lamb consumed in this province as there is pork or beef or chicken, you know, that would really skyrocket the amount of lamb that's consumed here, even though prices have been good the last two years or so.
The price in the display case, I think, wouldn't have to change much for the pork industry to get a decent return and I wondered why the department doesn't look at something similar to the old pork risk management program that was there in 1998 where it was one-third the processor, a third the government and a third the producer - but I think it should be the producer, the processor and the retailer. I think the retail stores should contribute to a fund that gives money back to the producer.
So why haven't you gone down that road and if government doesn't want to give money, which they seem not to want to do that, why haven't you looked at a program that would force the processor and the retailer to contribute to a fund that would aid the hog producer?
MR. TAYLOR: First of all, the government has invested in the pork industry and has put a lot of money. So it's not accurate to say the government doesn't want to put
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money into the pork industry. It is accurate to say that we can't expect - and I trust that the NDP wouldn't expect - the taxpayers to continue to pay the difference between the cost of production and actually what it costs to raise a pig. This province - in fact, the NDP Governments right across the country haven't been able to find a solution. I would say with all respect, and nobody at this table probably had a hand in it, but one of the biggest negative impacts to hit the pork industry - certainly on the East Coast - was when the federal government of the day decided to cut the federal fee assistance. I think you would acknowledge that.
It hit a number of industries but no industry any harder than the pork sector in the Province of Nova Scotia and, of course, in Atlantic Canada, but we have invested, I mean heavily. Loans have been retired and the interest has been paid. Since 2000 - and you could say, you could question where the money went, but we worked with Pork Nova Scotia, and it wasn't just the government saying, oh, we'll throw money at this, we'll throw money at that but, you know, over $17 million has been invested in the pork sector alone since the year 2000 - $17 million. In good conscience, I couldn't, as minister, and this government could not sustain that any longer.
So we have worked with the farmers, Pork Nova Scotia, individual farmers, to help them transition. I know, John, you have sent correspondence questioning whether there actually has been assistance for transition, but I say yes and you say no, or maybe not enough. The fact is, many farmers have complained to us that the debt load that they're carrying is so heavy that we'll never see daylight. So we retired, I think it was $6.2 million back, made the announcement back in 2006. The majority of that went to the pork producers. Some did go to cattle but the vast majority of that, I think it was like $3.8 million went to assist the pork producer loan and, like I said, $17 million since 2000.
So you can look at different programs but at the end of the day - and I think they would tell you, the ones who have moved on and the ones that have transitioned - that it's just not sustainable in its current form, you know, and I think what you're suggesting is that the retailer maybe should ante up and I don't know whether you would call that, like another tax. I'm just saying that, you know, it's very hard. You go to purchase pork or any commodity, you know, you certainly discern that it's not cheap. People are paying a lot for buying pork products but the farmer just isn't getting the return that's necessary.
Now, having said that, we do support Tony's in Antigonish. It's an inspected plant, of course. They are working with some of the retailers. They're moving to some Nova Scotia brands and while, I think it was through the Department of Economic Development, it wasn't $2 million but very close, about $1 million, you know, they did receive help and again I point out that we haven't walked away. I certainly haven't wrung my hands of the pork industry. John, I would like to see it sustained and no doubt, well, it is smaller than it was this time last year, but I would like to see the producers, you
[Page 15]
know, at least the ones who are left, be successful, be profitable, be sustainable, and we will work with them. Just within I think the last month we sent out another $100,000 - $10,000 each to the nine farmers who moved to the iso-ween, and I think there was another $10,000 went to another individual who actually has diversified his operation.
So, you know, the government, I couldn't and I trust that the NDP wouldn't want to just - and I know you're not saying that, I want to make it clear, but I'll tell you, you know, if you've got a solution to this, you're a magician because nobody in Canada, including the NDP Governments right across, have been able. I sit with some of the NDP Agriculture Ministers at these federal-provincial-territory and they're worried. They're extremely worried. In fact, I mentioned today to your leader - the federal government came in with that hog call, if you want to call it that, regarding the sows and I've actually written a letter to the federal minister. That program in its current perimeters is retro to November 1st of last year and we've asked at the request of the hog farmers if they would consider moving it back to September because we were ahead of, you know, it's something like - we had to make the difficult choices.
In fact, we were leaders in encouraging the farmers to transition and our programs would be conditional and to access money - yes, it meant some farmers exiting. But now the federal government and governments right across the country recognize that, you know, for a number of reasons - here it's high input costs - that in some aspects we find that there are models that just are not profitable. Consequently, the feds are in with this $50 million program that's on.
The old program, again, I would question that although you're right. At that particular time it did pay some dividends and not everybody was successful, but it would require a considerable amount of capital, you know, and I don't know where in the heck you would get it, that's all.
MR. MACDONELL: Yes, well, if the hog industry was contributing $8 million to the provincial coffers in tax, then I think it would be worth $8 million a year to support it. I wouldn't want to see that go on to the end of time, I would like to see it stabilized but in the short term I think that would work - in the long term it wouldn't work. To me, maybe people who are better experts and I kind of rely on the people I think know more than me, but with a previous pork risk management program, nobody ever looked at the contribution by the processor as a tax. I didn't even know there was a pork risk management program. So the consumer wouldn't have known and they sure weren't kicking up about it.
So that's why I say, why couldn't you have a similar program that had the retailer contribute and let basically the consumer, you know, basically fund instead of governments funding it? I think that would be a more appropriate way to go. Somebody must be funding the hogs we're eating because they're not Nova Scotia hogs. So if it's
[Page 16]
not NDP Governments that are supporting the hog industry in their provinces, there has got to be some other government somewhere supporting them. If they're coming from Quebec or where, somebody is ensuring that there's actually pork in the marketplace and, you know, maybe the beneficiaries of the demise of our pork industry is some other jurisdiction.
We can grow forages, we can grow grass like nobody else can. I mean the Stewiacke and the Musquodoboit River Valleys, the Shubenacadie River Valley - what they can do in producing forages, nowhere else - I would even question where else in the Atlantic region. There's an area - if you were going to try to encourage young people in the industry, we should be doing all we can do in the rumanence sector. We should be raising animals that can convert grasses into some other product and that's what farmers have done since they came - the first yak, or whatever - and I don't see any encouragement there.
When I think of what we're able to do with our haylages and silages, you know, 19 per cent protein, 20 per cent protein, a much better feed supply than grains are - I mean if you get 10 per cent protein on grains, not necessarily a balanced ration, but we can grow forages. So we finish about 8,000 head of cattle in Nova Scotia, we bring in the equivalent of 9,000 head a month. Somewhere in the range of $200 million - consumer dollars - leaves the province, a lot of which goes to Alberta and benefits the coffers of the Alberta Government.
So this is an area that I think would be an area we should be able to encourage people to invest but the same problems which were identified in your beef task force, which I didn't belong to, and the reason I didn't - (Interruption) Yes, thank you - the reason I didn't was because when the former minister, the Honourable Chris D'Entremont, asked me about joining that task force, I said, well, if you would agree that whatever recommendations the task force comes up with that would benefit the industry, that you'll enact them, I'll join, what do you say, and he said no. He wouldn't give me that guarantee. So if he wasn't going to give me that guarantee, I'm not sure why I would want to be window dressing on that committee.
I haven't seen that any great strides have come for the industry but that was one of the concerns that they have. There is a concern that the middle man is making money while the producer is dealing with low prices and consumers are still paying the price for pre-BSE. The producers in this province have not recovered from BSE. If there's anybody making money, it's not the producers. I think the other week in Truro at the Thursday sale, I think it was brood cows, but I might be wrong on that, going for a little over $100 and, you know, I mean we can't have much of a beef sector left, to be honest. So I'm not sure if they all have to disappear before the price goes up but certainly in the real world those kind of prices can't exist.
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So I mean even the question that I raised, or my leader raised - I thought I was going to raise in Question Period - was around the issues that Kurt Sherman had addressed around the $1.9 million that you've offered to the beef sector. So what's happening with that money because it's not helping him? So can you explain what's happening with that program? Can you explain the cap? Can you explain who's in and who's out and what the potential for benefit is for the beef industry?
MR. TAYLOR: Thank you for raising all those points but, first of all, let me say I wish you had come on that task force. I'm quite confident you would have assisted us. We would have appreciated your experience and your views. We don't always agree but I don't think anybody would disagree that you certainly would have brought a good perspective to the table.
If I could in defence of that task force say that, in fact, the recommendations we did bring back initially, no, we didn't get the $10 million, but we have exceeded the $10 million in time. In May of 2003, when that disaster hit our beef sector especially hard, there's no doubt about it that the farmers had never fully recovered because that was a major, major setback for many of them. But, yes, we did send the invitation out to the Agriculture Critic; I think the minister did. I was asked to chair the committee but we were disappointed that you didn't attend and I think if you were to talk to the now-Leader of the Liberal Party in Nova Scotia, he would tell you that, in fact, privately we had many conversations about the personal testimony that the farmers brought to the table.
In fact, John, I would tell you that at that particular time we were near an election in 2003, if you would remember, and the candidate for your Party said, oh, there's no crisis, it's a federal concern. Actually I have the quotes and I know you don't agree with that, but at that particular time I was thinking, well, you know, we asked the Agriculture Critic to come on and he declined. I understand, you know, your rationale. I don't agree with it but I understand why you declined, but I couldn't believe my ears. I said, you know - and I know she didn't mean to come across that way but she said clearly that this is a federal issue, it's not provincial. Well, we know today that it is certainly a very big provincial issue. That was more based on politics than science, quite frankly. I digress, but you led me into it.
Now, oh yes, I'm sorry, the $1.9 million. As I said, my colleagues were supportive of the request for $2 million for the agricultural industry. If I could, the parameters of the program were that we were speaking to the beef producers, keeping in mind that traditionally, and the history will tell you that farmers, where 51 per cent of their income is generated through supply management, have been historically ineligible for those ad hoc programs for the beef sector. So we considered that as one of the parameters and that, in fact, was what we were working with the Nova Scotia cattlemen on.
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Again, it wasn't the minister saying, I must go some day to Cabinet and ask for $2 million - it was a consequence of many, many meetings. Certainly the then President of the Nova Scotia Cattlemen, Greg Sheffer, along with his supporting cast, put forward a convincing argument that it's great to help the beef plant, the federal plant in Prince Edward Island but we, as well, need help at the current time for cash management issues.
So I had a chance to do a fairly extensive tour of Nova Scotia. We, as a caucus, had some out-of-town caucus meetings in Pictou County - facilitated by the chairman, for example. A huge crowd turned out, a goodly number of farmers. They brought a lot of concerns regarding the beef sector to us as well. We learned, at that particular time, it's no big secret, that the farmers themselves had done a freedom of information on different farmers within their sector - and this was brought to me by constituents in Pictou County - and they were saying, look, perhaps you might want to look at as to how you deliver these programs in the name of fairness and balance and make them more equitable. So we did look at that.
When you talk about the CAP, it was learned - without mentioning names - that some beef producers had, in fact, received hundreds of thousands of dollars and since the BSE crisis, some of them have received over $1 million. So, keeping in mind that the little farmer, the little guy, John, is ineligible for the Farm Investment Fund if they don't generate $10,000, if you will - that's a federation - and, I know they wrestle with that from time to time. So we felt, in the name of fairness, they want more balance, we will cap it. A lot of the things the government do are capped - whether it's our Pharmacare Program, whether it's senior citizen housing or any number of programs do have thresholds and caps.
So yes, we did cap it and I think the maximum payment was $38,000 and we capped it at 2 per cent of the $1.9 million and we still are wresting with the supply-managed issue, whether or not you would be eligible if you have an annual net sale, an ANS, and you are a supply-managed commodity and your income is over 51 per cent. As well, I would point out that, from attending federal-provincial-territorial meetings generally, the trend is to not issue direct payments to supply-managed commodities that are earning 51 per cent of their income. I am inclined to think that way and, again, we don't want to do something that may, even though it is Nova Scotia, it might compromise talks on the world stage as well because, you know, they have some advantages of running a beef herd with a dairy farm. I mean, I know from experience.
So, anyway, it has created some discussion among the ranks and yes, I did have a call from - and, if I can, we won't mention the gentleman's name. But if I could, that gentleman at the end of the day, just because of his annual net sales, wouldn't have, quite frankly, got a cent because of using the parameters of the annual net sales. We did look into that.
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That is where we are with that and I would be interested, I know it is not question and answer period in reverse, but I would be interested in what you think of, if you think it should have been managed in a different way. Speaking to Kurt Sherman - because we were very mindful of Kurt's situation, you know. We never said it would save the day.
MR. MACDONELL: I'm still not clear how it was managed, so I would find it difficult to come up with another way. I just wonder - you capped it at 2 per cent of the $1.9 million, so that means that nobody could get 2 per cent of the $1.9 million. Okay. So 2 per cent is what, $40,000?
AN HON. MEMBER: $38,000.
MR. MACDONELL: $38,000. So, now, if I was filling out my application form, I would put my annual income from all sources - from my beef sector, if I am only a beef farmer. How then would it be determined what my response would be from the program?
MR. TAYLOR: We get our information from the federal - well now, Agri-Stability Program. They look at the annual net sales. Like they take the average. I think they go back to what, 2002? (Interruption) From 2002-04, they look at the annual net sales. It's based on that, John, that is how it is derived for those who are in.
Now there is a number - to be honest, we are still working through the calculations. There are a number of workers that we advertised the program to that were beef farmers and they applied to the federal government. They may not have an ANS yet they have one recorded with the federal government. So we are waiting to get more information back from the federal government, as well, on that front and, as well, you have to be a beef farmer paying a levy, which is the law. It went through the Legislature, so that was another, I forgot to mention, a caveat.
Can I just say hello to our students? We have some students in here, Mr. Chairman, if I might.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, certainly.
MR. TAYLOR: I would like to say hello to everybody, as the Minister of Agriculture, the Chairman would like to welcome you, too, I am sure. These are students from Holland exchange and they are a group from Minister Baker's riding. Welcome to the Red Room. We are going through the Department of Agriculture's budget in here.
Mr. Chairman, could we just, if I could, would you ask the members just to introduce themselves around the table for our guests? Would that be okay with the leader?
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AN HON. MEMBER: Agreed.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Certainly. Starting with the member to my left.
HON. MURRAY SCOTT: I am Murray Scott, the MLA for Cumberland South. I'm the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal.
MR. CHARLES PARKER: Good afternoon. My name is Charlie Parker. I am the MLA for Pictou West. You are welcome to visit here anytime to our Legislature.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: Hi. I am John MacDonell. I am the MLA for Hants East. If you know Enfield, Elmsdale, Shubenacadie, that's my neck of the woods. I am the Agriculture Critic for the New Democratic Party.
AN HON. MEMBER: Shubenacadie west.
MR. MACDONELL: Wildlife Park, just outside. That's in his. (Laughter)
HON. BROOKE TAYLOR: I'm Brooke Taylor, the MLA for the beautiful Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley. Any of our students who would like to become young entrants into the agricultural community, we certainly would like to encourage you. We are discussing things like that now and I will turn it over to my colleague to the left.
MR. LEO GLAVINE: Leo Glavine. I represent Kings West in perhaps the even a little more beautiful Annapolis Valley.
HON. RICHARD HURLBURT: I am Richard Hurlburt, the MLA for Yarmouth, Minister of Energy for the Province of Nova Scotia and I live in the banana belt of Nova Scotia called Yarmouth.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Just before you leave, perhaps a couple more introductions. I am the MLA for Pictou Centre and a former career as a principal, and if I had you as students, you would all be making hundreds. I would ask the minister if you want to introduce the deputy minister.
[5:00 p.m.]
MR. TAYLOR: Oh, yes. This is the Deputy Minister, Paul LaFleche. Paul is the Deputy Minister of Agriculture and to my left is the Director of Financial Services, not only for this department but for a number of departments in the Government of Nova Scotia, Weldon Myers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (Applause)
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Hants East.
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MR. MACDONELL: Mr. Chairman, actually, I am waiting for the minister's response on the annual net sales for his $1.9 million - so you said from 2002 to 2004. Is that - put it in terms I can understand - if, in 2001, if you had, say, a gross income of $70,000 and in 2002, it went down to $40,000 but it stayed at $40,000 until 2004, would it be perceived that you didn't have a drop in income? If your income stayed the same from 2002 to 2004, even though it had dropped in the previous year?
MR. TAYLOR: John, in simple terms, my understanding is that they look at the inventory of animals that you had in the years of eligibility and they subtract the cost of the purchasing of the original animal, less the feed costs, and the sale of the animal - they are calculated together and that's how they generate the annual net sales.
MR. MACDONELL: Okay, so they take the purchase cost of the original animal, less the feed cost. Now are we talking about feed law, like a finishing operation, or are we talking about cow-calf operation - if you buy the original breeding animal? Exactly what kind of animal are we talking about?
MR. TAYLOR: My understanding is, as per the federal old case program, your animals were documented, as far as your inventory goals. I understand they look at all beef animals, in terms of those parameters, those conditions that I mentioned. So I am not sure but we can check into that further. I think it is cow-calf beef, my understanding is, and that is on your federal tax form as well, in terms of identifying your actual income. I will tell you, it's broadly used, that system - at least we are not hearing a lot of complaints about the ANS, the annual net sales.
MR. MACDONELL: So if I was to keep 10 per cent of my heifer calves over as replacements and I added those to my herd, the fact that I wouldn't sell them would mean I wouldn't have an income from them. Are they then deemed to be, even though they are adding to my inventory, how does that affect my annual net sales?
MR. TAYLOR: Do you mean if you were just adding to your herd?
MR. MACDONELL: Yes, keeping some heifers.
MR. TAYLOR: Actually, I had that same concern and I think I did bring it up. In fact, it wouldn't show as being an annual net sale but the thing people told me is that is unlikely to happen because obviously, if you are sustaining on beef, there would be some commerce going out and coming in.
MR. MACDONELL: Sure.
MR. TAYLOR: Are you saying you would just simply add to that herd?
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MR. MACDONELL: Say I had 50 cows and I'm thinking I wanted to keep 10 heifers to have 60 cows at some point, in two years or whatever, I would keep 10 of my heifer calves and use them. Of course there would be culls and you would want to replace some and so on, depending on any particular year. So I am just curious as to what that additional inventory would mean to your annual net sales because your only other option would be to sell them and you would get an income from them but you are not getting an income, actually you are increasing your costs, because you want to keep them.
MR. TAYLOR: Yes and that, as I said earlier, John, they average that out over three years.
MR. MACDONELL: Okay.
MR. TAYLOR: It's not for one year. I think it was 2002 and I should note - 2002, 2003, 2004, yes.
MR. MACDONELL: So, they take my original animals, less my feed costs, over three years? So that sounds like if I added to my original animals, they wouldn't be considered. I mean, if I'm adding inventory, that doesn't sound like they would be my original animals. So, less my feed costs, that gives me my annual net sales. I'm not sure that's clear to me.
MR. TAYLOR: It's widely used.
MR. MACDONELL: I'm just curious. I know from the e-mail I got from Kurt Sherman that it turned out for him to be - he has a 40 cow operation and it turned out to be $51 per productive cow. So I'm really trying to find out how that can happen. For him, it didn't - I'll just read what it says:
I use about three 1,200 litre tanks of fuel during hay system and feeding throughout the year and about one tank with blueberries. In 2003, farm fuel was 42 cents per litre; now two weeks ago, a producer friend paid $1.07. Three tanks at 42 cents is $1,512, three tanks at $1.07 is $3,852 or $2,340 more than I paid in 2003.
So, what he's going to get at $51 per cow isn't going to really cover his additional cost in fuel. That, I think, is the dilemma, not to mention low beef prices and so on. So I'm just trying to get a handle on how your program worked in order to help producers and it's not clear.
MR. TAYLOR: John, I don't like to speak specifically in this forum about a farmer. In this case, Mr. Sherman. I know it was brought to the floor in the Legislature, but I can tell you that if he would like further - through you, perhaps, you could advise
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him on that if he'd like further information on it. But, the average calculation was $75 per head.
Mr. Sherman - I'm just suggesting, again, I don't know. Everybody operates on a different scale and perhaps on a different scale of efficiency, but clearly, some of our farmers have very high expectations of government and other farmers are, frankly, more resourceful. Anyway, we certainly would, and we have - we've worked with Mr. Sherman in the past. If he has some concerns and issues - but again, as I said earlier, I don't think any government in Nova Scotia can be all things to all people.
My deputy reminds me accurately that Mr. Sherman was, in fact, a member of the executive - I think he still may be - with the Nova Scotia Cattlemen's Association. At any of the meetings the deputy and I attended, never once did he raise concerns about the calculation and the ANS - I want to point that out. We've been fair with Mr. Sherman, as we have any of the farmers.
He also was on the mad cow task force. He would know, while we're not talking about the amount he took home and the fact we'll give him more information, but he clearly, I think, understands the plight that many of his colleague beef producers are facing, but he certainly was a strong advocate on behalf of the beef commodity, understanding the pressures we have as a government to deliver and in that case, $2 million. I'm very proud of the fact my Cabinet colleagues - and now we're joined by the MLA for Cumberland South, who worked extremely hard with members from my own government and was extremely supportive. I want to thank Murray Scott for his help.
It certainly won't answer everybody's problem, but it will assist with some cash management issues until we get the beef strategy up and running like it should.
MR. MACDONELL: I appreciate that and the fact - Mr. Sherman certainly did say, ask questions on my behalf, use my information. I think the fact he was on the executive and was kind of there during the growth pains of developing this program, then obviously, it hasn't seemed to have worked out the way he was thinking it would. That's a bit of a concern.
I don't want to leave the beef sector too long, but I have a question I want to ask before I forget about it. One of the questions I raised last year with the acting minister was that in 2006 - I think actually the Premier had indicated during that 2006 campaign - that there were going to be 10 people hired by the department. The minister, last year, indicated that was going to take place - that was 2007, they still hadn't been hired - that was going to take place over the next few months. We may hire two or three this year, he said.
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Now we're two years from 2006 and my understanding is those 10 people have never been hired. Can you tell me what happened with those people?
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, John, thank you. I remember that commitment quite well. In the new fiscal year, we will establish seven new industry liaison officers and increase that number to 10, starting the next fiscal year. We have had discussions with every commodity across the province as to where they feel those liaison officers should go. But, that's the short answer.
There are more requests than we will have workers, to satisfy everybody. There's certainly going to be a balancing act there, if you're talking to the apple producers in the Valley, of course, they feel they have justification. If you're talking to the mink producers which isn't an agrifood, but just the same, they would like to have - and dairy and on and on it goes.
MR. MACDONELL: Yes, so have you hired them? That's my question.
MR. TAYLOR: The two new regional officers are going to be shortly working directly with farmers on issues related to transition. That, John, I'm not saying soon, very soon - that is going to happen shortly. One new veterinarian position is going to focus on animal welfare and emergency preparedness. I believe that person has been - Diane, has that been hired? (Interruption) Not yet, but again, I think that position has been advertised and we're going through an evaluation process at this time.
But to answer the question, it's a promise that has been made, it's a promise that will be kept. During the course of this fiscal year, if there's lots of support for the budget, we will be able to hire the seven officers this year and the remainder in the next fiscal year.
MR. MACDONELL: What we're really saying is, a promise made two years ago in an election still hasn't been kept - that's what we're saying.
MR. TAYLOR: That's what you're saying, yes.
MR. MACDONELL: Well, I think the evidence is pretty clear that I'm right. Okay, thank you, minster. I think the industry is kind of wondering what happened there.
I want to come back to the beef sector - I see great potential in the beef sector. The fact that we're consuming the equivalent of 9,000 head a month should indicate that's a market we don't have to create - it's there, Nova Scotians are consuming that amount of beef - and we have such an industry in such dismal condition. I want to impress upon the minister, I think there are some ways the minister - I think something similar to the risk management program I talked about for the hog industry. We definitely
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have to get more of the retail dollar to the producer. I don't care which way you cut it, slice it, dice it. If producers can't get their share of the dollar out of the value chain and that's the cheapest way for government to help them, then we're wasting each other's time.
[5:15 p.m.]
One issue is provincial inspections. That is the inability for that product to move across borders. It's my understanding that in Quebec, it's a slightly different animal that they have their inspection facility - they didn't really jump onto the federal inspection plan program when it was first initiated. So they kind of kept the equivalent of a provincial inspection strategy, but they use it like federal inspection. They can market outside the province, that's my understanding. I'm trying to think if I had this discussion with your deputy one day, so he may shed some light on it.
Anyway, I want to ask, have you ever approached CFIA or the federal government to ask about trying to tweak our system so that we actually - the product coming out the door on the other end is as good from the provincially inspected plants as it is from the federally inspected plants. Matter of fact, our inspectors will move from federal inspection to provincial inspection. I mean, they're qualified to do that so it would seem to me that if the quality of the food and the health issues are taken care of, moving that product across borders just because it was a provincially inspected plant and that means because its ceiling was 10 feet instead of 12 feet, or the drain was four inches instead of eight inches - these are unreasonable impediments to market access for our provincially inspected facilities.
I'm not sure if you're aware of Oulton's in Windsor - you probably are. Wayne Oulton has a business niche there, he does something that not a lot of people are particularly aware of, or would be thinking about. He has a real variety of interests on the agriculture and the exotic animal sector. He kills wild boars and sells to the restaurants, but he does something that I have a somewhat of an interest in. I have a little hobby of poultry and water fowl. Wayne Oulton is probably the only one, who slaughters a large number of ducks and geese in the province. There's no quota on ducks and geese in Nova Scotia so you can grow whatever amount - I've sold him geese for his market.
But, he can't sell them outside of Nova Scotia. He gets orders from P.E.I. and New Brunswick and he can't market those birds outside of Nova Scotia. It seems to me to be kind of blatantly unfair that he's unable to do that when the quality of the product coming out the door is as good as it is anywhere.
I guess I'm asking two things maybe in the same question. Have you ever had any discussion with the federal government or CFIA on this issue to try to get a slightly different designation - we could be tier two or section b of the Act that would allow for
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provincial inspection to move product across borders. I'd like to know what knowledge or background you might have in terms of what happens in other provinces and if I'm way off the mark on what my thoughts are around Quebec. But, it seems to me they don't necessarily have federal inspection, but they do have a provincial inspection system that allows them to market outside of the province. Can you help me with that?
MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, John. I know Quebec has a lot of different programs when compared to the rest. I wasn't aware and thank you for bringing that to the table - that's another one I wasn't aware of. Sometimes they could be an inspiration, if you will, to the rest of us.
But, yes, I haven't had that particular discussion with the CFIA. I have toured plants that are federally inspected and quite frankly, you're right. As a lay person walking through, you can't tell a big difference between a provincial-inspected plant, at least to the naked eye. I've asked the question, but only on an informal basis. They tell us that there's a lot of trade issues and trade development initiatives that are predicated on that requirement, that food has to be federally inspected.
We could, in fact, see if there is any latitude that could be extended to Nova Scotia in our provincially inspected places, abattoirs. That is what we come up against time and time again, and if you go to a federally-inspected plant like ACA, for example, there's CFIA people there 24 hours a day. Well obviously ACA feel that's a big benefit because a lot of times they develop a good relationship, probably from a distance, but they assist in ideas and thoughts and they see it as a benefit, having them there.
That's not getting to your question but yes, we would seek out some more information on that front. Yes, and my deputy points out that it could develop into a two-way if, in fact - you know we have interprovincial agreements . . .
MR. MACDONELL: Sure.
MR. TAYLOR: . . . of course, and obviously you'd have to see the guidance and counsel of the individual sector, too, to see if they were supportive of such a thing because I know as far as the fluid milk goes, there's a debate raging - not raging but going on today about some of the differences between just Nova Scotia and New Brunswick .
MR. MACDONELL: All right, let me get this straight. Are you saying that if we were to convert our facilities, in whatever form, to federal inspection so they could sell product across borders, then we would recognize that other provinces would want to sell a product and through our border - am I going down the right road on that?
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I don't understand, then, what your deputy was trying to tell you around interprovincial and whether there's a risk.
MR. TAYLOR: Well, okay, I'll confer with my deputy again but I think what he was saying was that, in fact, it is a two-way street. If we're going to access markets in New Brunswick via the provincial inspection station, then it's only logical to expect that they would want to access our markets and right now they can't do that. That's what I was trying to gently point out.
MR. MACDONELL: You mean with that supply-managed commodity they can't?
MR. TAYLOR: Yea, but you're not talking about - are you not talking about the beef sector?
MR. MACDONELL: Well I'd like to talk about the beef sector. I mean we got 9,000 head of cattle coming into Nova Scotia. I mean they're accessing our market, we're not supplying it so I'm not sure why that's an issue.
MR. TAYLOR: Well I don't think you perhaps fully understand from the point of view of, we do have some markets and many of those cattle right now are not finished. You were arguing earlier about 4-H and finishing the cattle, they would have to be a big shift in the overall . . .
MR. MACDONELL: Oh sure.
MR. TAYLOR: . . . and it may in time evolve to that but right now there's obviously commodities that would have to be consulted with, to see what shortcomings they would see from that. You see only positives to opening up the markets, you know to open up jurisdictions to our markets, too. Okay, we got 9,000 - who is to say everybody is going to buy Nova Scotia beef? They're not doing it now.
MR. MACDONELL: There's none to buy.
MR. TAYLOR: Well, there is some - it's easy to say there isn't some to buy but you know they're still running a goodly number of cattle through the Atlantic Beef plant in Borden.
MR. MACDONELL: Which is in trouble.
MR. TAYLOR: It was in trouble.
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MR. MACDONELL: I'll come back to that. Before I leave, just from my conversation with the Oultons - Mike Oulton raised an issue that the downloading of costs, like hassop costs, all falls on the farmer, basically. I'm trying to think which - if it's Avon Foods or Graves or what company he is associated with in the Valley, but he was talking with regard to packing apples and you wear a hairnet for packing apples - there might be a hair on an apple.
MR. TAYLOR: Or chicken.
MR. MACDONELL: But he said if you - he went into, I think it was SuperStore. He contacted one of the federal people around these hassop controls, and he said, would you come have a coffee with me, sat up above to have the coffee and looked at him, and watched people preparing salad and packaging it. Those people didn't have a hairnet, didn't have anything. So when he raised this, the next time he went in he said, you're handing these cost on if there was a problem with that salad, that would come back to the farmer, it wouldn't come back to the retailer. So the next time he went in, there was a glass screen, a non-transparent . . .
MR. TAYLOR: Net, sort of?
MR. MACDONELL: . . . glass up in the - so you couldn't see what they were doing, but they didn't have hairnets. So I'm just wondering anybody ever considers about the downloading cost to . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Time has expired for the NDP caucus. I'd like to pass questions over to the Liberal caucus, with the honourable member for Kings West.
MR. LEO GLAVINE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to have this opportunity to ask the minister and the deputy. It is nice to see the minister back this year and, like teaching, we had a substitute last year. I am pleased as well with the professional relationship that I've been developing with the deputy minister and his access is very strongly appreciated and taking the time to take a phone call, even when he's in a barn or out in a field - that's much appreciated.
So with that, the ones, the statement by my colleague opposite opened up with certainly applies to a few of the sectors in the province - they are going through an enormously difficult and enormously challenging time. I'd like to start off with, I guess, the lowest points that we're dealing with and also ask some questions about the Buy Local campaign, which has gotten off to, I believe, a good start but still a lot of work to do to some of the niche areas of agriculture which hold enormous promise and, again, lead up to the kinds of pieces that the minister and his department sees, at least in very broad terms, about an agriculture strategy for the next number of years.
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I'd like to start off in terms of the - we know that, you know the minister used the word "crisis" in relation to the hog industry, I would use the word "collapse" of the hog industry. Pork Nova Scotia sees 19 producers left by December 31st and I see less, based on perhaps the response that the minister is going to give here today because the minister - and there's no point, there's no need to bring his quote here about how strong and how fond he was of one of the proposals put forward to help save some of the hog producers. That was, of course, to move to the isowean and the weiner sales to the United States.
There is a real chance, and my neighbour is one of them and I monitor very closely what is happening to him - there was no transition money for him and he has added to his enormous debt burden with a huge loan. If they reach a point here shortly where it doesn't look like they're going to make it, the conditions in the United States - while still bringing a little profit - are not what they were when they even started out. Are you prepared to save at least the 19 producers who are projected to be around?
MR. TAYLOR: Leo, look, we'll be willing to work with the pork industry. We've said before that the Department of Agriculture has, on a case-by-case basis, worked with a number of individual farmers, including the producer that you're referring to. You're right, he hasn't - they have an incredible debt. I'm hearing too - unofficially mind you - that the isowean, that we had been told initially, and it was - mostly the producer, not so much Pork Nova Scotia - I want to be clear that they had never really fully endorsed that model, I think you would agree. But many of the producers in the Amherst area in particular spoke extremely positive on that front.
[5:30 p.m.]
I will say that the producer that you are saying hasn't received any assistance through transition perhaps looks at it a little differently than the Department of Agriculture does because there has been a large investment made in the pork industry over the last five or six years by the Government of Nova Scotia and there has been a number of direct payments that have been made to the producers. There has been loan forgiveness, there has been interest forgiveness, there has been loan writeoffs. In fact, that producer - and I have made this same argument, not with much success mind you, with the NDP Agriculture Critic as well.
We like to leave things in the hands of the farmer and not make them too conditional, although a lot of government programs are conditional. If a farmer has made choices that were of their own, as to how their monetary is managed and don't see it necessarily as transition, then, in fact, you know, you can stand there and say no, I had another cash management problem, a new piece of equipment or I had to bring more sows in or I had to do barn renovations. The question of transition, you know, is something that is not as closely and clearly defined as you might think and your neighbour may think.
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The Farm Loan Board has, I think, assisted that producer - I trust we are talking about the same individual. I have gone at least twice to my colleagues for support. We hope that things will turn out successful. If they don't, you know we will have to cross that bridge when we come to it but it is certainly a concern. It's a concern to me and the MLA and most all the MLAs in the Valley know who the producer is and are worried about that.
I think your question was if there are 19 hog producers left - and you think there will be less - and they are threatened, will we help them? I certainly, as minister, will continue to ensure that staff is as empathetic as they can be. I have told your colleague, the member for Clare, that under our watch, we don't have any interest in seeing anybody's home - and under my watch, I don't want to see any farms, irrespective of the commodity but especially pork, taken because I know they are challenging and trying times. Whether we can continue if they are not profitable, to invest in the pork industry, I would have to take that to my colleagues but I do know that we have a lot of pressures as a government. You bring questions and requests, your caucus and John's caucus every day, asking our government to make expenditures. It comes down to priorities but I will say that, under my watch, I will do everything that I can to ensure that the family home, the farm, is not taken. I made that commitment to your colleague, the member for Clare, about a year ago.
MR. GLAVINE: I will go back for a moment. My understanding when I went to some of the farmers in the Valley - and primarily Kings West in this case because there was a concentration in my area - I got a good sampling of those who left the industry completely, those who are taking some product to farm markets, some who are putting product into small abattoirs and a couple who are in the isoween business.
When the word transitioning was promoted by government knowing that, as you said, they had to get additional sows in order to meet the kind of numbers that need to go out to barn at one time, some had to change the physical format and structure of their barns. So most thought that, in fact, there was going to be a change for them not to have to go as deep in debt as they currently are. I know there was only a small amount - I think nine producers - ended up with about $9,000 or so dollars each.
Now we know that is pretty limited in terms of real transition so that is why I was wanting to make that point because for those at the side to transition, it was either, again, like the others, the 100-plus who got out of the industry over the last number of years.
So I go back to a belief that I still have and maybe I would like to hear from you perhaps and your department, as to why you see it and saw it differently - I believe it was Minister Fage, at the time, who made the decision. We all know that the change in the Crow Rate and the feed subsidy changed things forever in this province as far as all sectors go, managed or unmanaged. But up to that point, going back, when I talked to the
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farmers, they hadn't heard from government that there was a need to abandon the program. Larsens, the biggest intake processor, hadn't said we can't go on with our portion and the farmers, as well, in good times, were able to put a little in.
So that tripartite system - and I know my colleague offers now putting the retailer perhaps in there as well - why was that decision made? We had a good industry here. We had then by that point, seven or eight years ago, we had trimmed down a number of producers. So why was government making a decision that would eventually mean the demise of the industry? We had a good industry, we had a topnotch product and that is one of the reasons why the isoweans are so welcome in the U.S. They have already told farmers, when your product here is healthy and the finished product, because of the great job you have done with breeding stock, you have an exceptional product.
So here we basically made a decision to destroy an industry - and that's the only term, Mr. Minister - why, in your understanding, was that decision made? I can't gather from any of the partners - or maybe not so much directly from government, that's why I'm asking the question - but I can't get from Mike Larson, who was manager of the plant at the time and is no longer there, and from farmers - there was no kicking about that program. So why, in your understanding, you were in government, why was it let go?
MR. TAYLOR: John, you are referring to the Crow's Pass, the feed freight?
MR. GLAVINE: Well, the feed freight. No, I'm talking about when we had the tripartite agreement.
AN HON. MEMBER: The pork risk management.
MR. GLAVINE: Yes, the pork risk management program, basically.
MR. TAYLOR: Oh, the same program.
MR. GLAVINE: We had the three contributors.
MR. TAYLOR: During your question, your preamble, I do want to say that the industry's fundamental disadvantage continues to be transportation costs and producers will tell you that. Feed, of course, is a major cost for Nova Scotia hog producers. I think you indicated that the Minister of Agriculture of the day decided that it was, I guess, time to remove that program. I don't have here, today, the rationale for - I think it was 1998 or 1999 that the program was cut and yes, I was an elected MLA at that particular time.
We have made note of the program and will take a look at it but whether there is an opportunity - I'm not going to sit here and mislead anybody by saying that we would seriously look at resurrecting that program but we will take a look at it. John had
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mentioned earlier the partners who make the contribution. So, you know, it's something that we will go back and - of course, my deputy wasn't the deputy at that time either but just the same, you know, I wonder where your federal Party was and what they were thinking, quite honestly. I have to say I do, Leo, with all respect, wonder what they were thinking when they cut that federal feed assistance?
In that time I was a member of the trucking industry as well, and there were a number of commodities that benefited from that East Coast assistance. You know, honestly, I think, not to point fingers - and maybe I am - but what I'm saying is that was a benefit to Nova Scotia in more ways than one. I think some of those decisions that didn't receive the necessary deliberation are really hurting the industry today and the program you mentioned - you know, you brought forward a valid concern. John brought it forward earlier and we will take a look at that and hopefully can respond in a way that's more informative.
MR. GLAVINE: One of the other elements here - I'll wait for the minister to get his directions. (Interruptions) One of the other related questions here is the fact that you have a small number who are for all intents and purposes still in the commodity business but on a much smaller scale. Those who are going to produce for Tony's, those who are going to produce for Bowlby's, for Armstrong's, for Reid's in the Gaspereau area, and there are other smaller abattoirs across the province. They still have to pay that enormous feed bill and, as you know, you have at least one letter and one initiative taken that perhaps it was time to look then maybe at least at some feed subsidy at a time when feed prices have been escalating, you know, at an enormously fast rate.
All provinces across Canada now with an agricultural sector are subsidizing in some areas and that's why I think somewhere in this $59 million budget, I believe - and I'll move on to beef, I know my colleague there has talked about that area - but at the end of the day, we may even have to look at some of the managed sectors with the way feed is going. You know, we're potentially moving down the road of only a producer who is directly taking his hog from the barn right across the street to his market that may be the only ones that survive.
So what I'm asking, therefore, is there a chance that Kelco can have some life or that we can look at a feed subsidy initiative of some form? Nova Scotians would still like to be able to buy Nova Scotia pork. We are producing some of the best in the world and that's objectively stated when they look at the quality and the index ratings that they're able to achieve and yet we're quickly moving to, you know, zero hogs in our barns.
[5:45 p.m.]
MR. TAYLOR: First, Leo, I certainly concur with you that we have some of the best pork, if not the best pork anywhere. I don't think it's a question of actually
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producing the pork and selling Nova Scotia pork because they are selling it; they're just not getting the return that they need. We, obviously, did look at Kelco. Well, we approved the committee and they did an incredible amount of work but at the end of the day, it was decided that we didn't support as a government, in blunt terms, putting additional tax on the consumers of Nova Scotia for food products. We believe and I believe as Minister of Agriculture that in fact, consumers - in this case Nova Scotians - are paying plenty when you look at the price that you're paying at the retail level for the food product that you're buying.
You mentioned Larsen's earlier. The shippers that are producing and providing Larsen's with their hogs are competing in that North American market model. Somewhere along the way it has to be said - and, in fact, I would say - that while the government has invested unbelievable amounts of money in the pork industry, whether it is through pork industry loan initiatives, direct payments, pork loan support additions, Ad Hog Farm Investment Farm, agri-food - there are a number and I'm not going through them all - where has Larsen's been? It has to be said.
Larsen's bacon, for example, many people comment that its name is on it but if they could identify it as a distinct brand I believe people would buy it. Would that be passed on to the pork producer? Has it ever been? Talk to Pork Nova Scotia and I know both of you folks have. So I can't say here and I won't say here - and you know what Kelco leads to? The recommendation essentially was to add to the cost of food products; in this case, pork. We're not prepared to do that at this particular time and consequently, it may not have been the answer to the woes of the pork industry. It would have meant a return to the producer but how many cents would you add to the price? That was the decision. Whether it was philosophical, political, whatever, that was the decision that was made. I'll sit here and honestly tell you that was the decision that was made.
Again, it's not just Nova Scotia. P.E.I. shut down their hog plant over there, their processing plant. They have some models that I thought were going to work, myself, like the Omega-3 and the natural pork - and now we're seeing 1,800 pigs a week coming from P.E.I. to Larsen's, for example. How long is that going to last? How long are those producers going to be able to compete? I hope they can sustain but it's really a Canadian problem. The feds brought this program in, we've tried to help and we've looked at other jurisdictions. You might say we've been very generous to the pork producers - obviously, some of them won't agree with that but we have tried to help. Nobody has come up with a solution for them to sustain.
Shoppers' trends have changed to a degree as well. People are shopping and very mindful of health issues and things of that nature. It's a really difficult issue, it is. I can't sit here in good conscience and say that this government would continue to prop up a producer that is not profitable in the future. I've said that, I've been honest with the pork producers in the province. We have worked with them on a case-by-case basis, we can't
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get into names, but the government has been kind, has worked with them in terms of financing, in terms of actually moving to different models through the Farm Loan Board and frankly, that's where we are. It has been challenging particularly for the farmer, but it has been for the government.
MR. GLAVINE: I thank you for that and you are frank in the statement here that you have made. However, it leads to the question of, how much you have really asked or sat down with Loblaws and Sobeys and has there been any serious negotiations about the food chain here in terms of the distribution of the dollar? I'm wondering if there was ever any serious negotiations with asking them to be part of the solution because, once again, I think what my colleague has talked about is that either government or government and industry are going to be met at the same door with, will we save the cattle industry? Farmers were thankful for the $51 per cattle, no question, but that's not going to save the industry.
MR. TAYLOR: It was a $75 average.
MR. GLAVINE: Well, some I heard got $51 per animal. Anyway, that's not going to save the cattle industry. How serious a challenge and attempt? I know Dr. Hamm had no interest as he was too close to Sobeys, but are they being challenged to be partners here - a Nova Scotia company in particular - to show leadership in the food industry and its connection to the producer? As the farms disappear, and there's no question in talking to some of the cattle producers and knowing the number of hog farmers that are gone, 2006 to 2011 census year - we're on track now to have the worst five year period in the demise of farms in Nova Scotia. There's no question about that, we're moving in the direction so quick.
What I'm saying is, are we prepared to challenge the big players to also become part of the solution? I think those questions have to be echoed in this Chamber over here. I don't think we can play nice with them, as much as we may want to. I think we have to go on the public record as politicians in Nova Scotia that we would like for the big players to also be part of the solution. To date, they haven't been.
MR. TAYLOR: Leo, after Kelco, we didn't just drop the ball so to speak. We formed this competitive transition discussion with the stakeholders, the Federation and the various commodities that would hopefully lead the producers to become more self-sufficient. I do want you to know that while, in fact, we are very mindful of how the money flows - because we have to be very careful that any investment at this particular stage would hopefully lead to something that was profitable and sustainable. As well, we are trying to work with the big players.
There are discussions going on with Sobeys now. I know that Tony's Abattoir in Antigonish are working with them on a product line and they are meeting with some
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success on that front, I think it's safe to say, according to the owners at least,. Through Select Nova Scotia's Buy Local campaign, we had of course Jeannie Cruikshank and she's still is on our Ministerial Advisory Committee and there are a number of stakeholders, producers who are on the committee. I don't know if you're suggesting that maybe we're too - I've never been accused of this - polite in our discussions with the Superstores and Sobeys, but you're absolutely right. I feel that they could do more and, in fact, they're being told that by people who are much more diplomatic than I am that we do want to work with them.
A great example - and I will commend Sobeys on the Mason apple front and I'm sure you're aware - they ship apples through Sobeys all across Canada . . .
MR. GLAVINE: Right across Alberta, straight to Alberta.
MR. TAYLOR: . . . every day of the week, and it's a great partnership. I'm wondering, when you're speaking with other commodity producers, why they haven't been able to establish that type of relationship.
One of the things we learned through Mason Apples is that the forefathers, if you will, of Mason Apples started many years ago establishing a relationship and a bond with the Sobey family. That relationship has been fostered and has matured and evolved into the model that it is today.
I think to myself, wouldn't it be great if, in fact, the pork and beef sector had that type of opportunity? If they only had that type of opportunity I believe they'd all be successful.
MR. GLAVINE: Well that's why I bring that up because I know - take Rand's - a producer in the riding of the member for Kings North, for example - and their production of broccoli, the biggest producer of course east of Quebec and, in fact, providing for many months into Sobeys and there are other farmers who are gradually getting there.
I guess when you look at the fact that in Nova Scotia we can produce and finish a head of cattle in every single county and when you take a look at what we're producing and what we're importing in order to make up that amount that is weekly required in this province, I find it confounding, to say the least. I don't know right down to the micro details of what it is that is impeding. I know some of it is around the federal inspection versus the provincial inspection, but why we bring in beef from Australia, New Zealand, we go as far as Uruguay, into South America, and again we don't know all of the details about how it's produced. I know it must be inspected but why we can't get a greater development of the beef sector in Nova Scotia is, in fact, very confounding.
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I think it merits that kind of dialogue, where all of the players are brought together. We don't just deal with the cattlemen but I think we get the cattlemen and the big players, as well as those from the abattoirs. If everybody could come together, perhaps some of those challenges could actually be more directly worked on.
I've had some discussions this Spring with a couple of fourth and fifth generation beef farmers who now are at the point where they really can't see how they can go on. With that bill for a tractor at $15,000 and the price of diesel fuel, they know that working for somebody else at $10 or $12 an hour is going to replace their way of life. That's the kind of reality that is facing our farmers in this province.
So it's one of the things, you know I think, Mr. Minister, you've been meeting some of the challenges and there have been very many and tough and demanding - and at least before the cattle industry goes the way of the hog industry. The hog industry used to be a $100 million industry here. When we looked at all of the indirect and direct players in that industry, we know that this year will be the lowest amount produced for probably at least three decades, maybe a little bit longer, and we are definitely going to see the path of the cattle industry go the same way.
[6:00 p.m.]
Before that happens, I would like to see us and all the players there, really have a sounding and explore, are there some ways out for the producers? The retail sector will go on, the abattoirs can reduce their output and therefore their workers, but it's going to be that primary producer, the person who has maintained the land and for many generations, that will be closing the barn door.
It's the one thing that I perhaps wanted to end off in asking about or in talking about - questions about the beef sector in this province. So I'm just wondering what else is going on and can possibly go on to try to breathe some life here. Farmers were appreciative of the investment in P.E.I. and direct subsidy to the producers but again, I'm not sure if it's going to pull us out of the difficulties that are there now.
MR. TAYLOR: Leo, you certainly raise some very good points and questions. Again, we have - in terms of investment and capital, taxpayers' dollars - invested heavily in both those sectors. They still have a long, long way to go, I understand that, and in fact from discussions with my Atlantic Provinces agriculture ministers counterparts in the other Atlantic Provinces, they're going through - especially in New Brunswick and P.E.I. - the same type of discussions.
When Premier Ghiz of P.E.I. came to this government looking for support for the beef plant in Borden, obviously the New Brunswick government received the same
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request. In fact, again that was certainly a big undertaking for this province to invest the $2 million in that federally-inspected plant.
It's easy to say that we believe in a beef strategy but does it actually have the opportunities to sustain? As I said earlier, I believe that it does. We do have some of the best forage ability in all of Canada - there's no doubting that - the current system that's in place is generally a system where we raise a goodly number of feeders that are, in fact, sent over to P.E.I. and I am told, or at least I was told by the Nova Scotia Cattlemen, that about 60 per cent of those animals actually go through the beef plant. It depends on who you talk to as to whether or not they agree with that.
As a consequence of the BSE crisis, and farmers will tell you - beef farmers right in my backyard tell me - that because of the mad cow disease and hysteria, a lot of the herds became older, as a result, and there is, too, you know you talk about us being able to produce but do we actually have the necessary genetics, the necessary breeding in place today? Some may say we do, others will say that we don't.
If you talk to the new owner of the Atlantic Stockyards in Murrays Siding, who is highly regarded by the beef community, he says there certainly are some challenges, on many, many fronts with the beef sector. But he said, I wouldn't have bought that cattle market and auction if I didn't believe there was a future, and we believe there's a future, but it won't look the same as it does today. We've got somewhere around 800 to 900 beef producers. Now there are different - there's a variance in the size of the herds, obviously, but we're encouraging and investing in the beef sector and trying to work with the farmer and work with Sean, for example, to work towards bringing better genetics into the herds, work with the beef plant.
We've sat down and the other Maritime provinces who have staff appropriate have sat down and had discussions over the future of the beef sector in the Maritimes because I think there still is a wonderful opportunity there, you know. Some of the smaller farmers I believe - if you look at the beef farmer compared to the pork producer and the dairy farmer and other commodities, you know, many, many times you will find that's not their only source of income or, in fact, no income.
I think we will have a beef industry, Leo, and we want to be there to assist them. We've actually said yes to a number of the requests. They've asked us to work with them to develop a beef strategy. We have said yes to that. Like your money, we've put our money, so to speak, where our mouth is and we've given them a budget. They're going to make decisions that they feel are in their best interests. I think we've found in this budget $250,000 besides the $2 million; we have an artist amongst us here. All that being said - I thought he was a hockey player but now he turns out to be a poet, pardon me, an artist. (Interruption)
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But it's a very serious issue, it's a major concern. You know I had a chance a couple of short months ago to travel through North Queens. There's an incredible number of beef producers in North Queens County and a dairy producer in Queens County. They're concerned as well but one of the problems they have is the fact that a lot of these herds, they still have some animals that actually should be moved. There's a cull cow line now, and it has been in operation at the Atlantic Beef plant in Borden. Farmers have told me that almost overnight, the price of their animals went up. I don't know to what degree but it did go up, maybe nominally, to sort of point out the need for competition.
We're going to work with the Nova Scotia cattlemen in the name of developing a beef strategy. I think we're moving in the right direction but the beef herd is a lot smaller today than it was even back in 2003 but it will take in some cases a shift in the way the farmers are actually thinking today. Some are ready to move. Some are innovative and ready to take that risk, ready to take that challenge, and we're there to help them. You're afraid that it may collapse and it's a valid fear, I think, but I honestly believe in the beef sector, Leo.
MR. GLAVINE: Well, I do as well and that's why I'm asking and testing the thinking of the minister in terms of the direction that he's going to give, you know, well before last year because I live in a very rural area. In fact, as I said last week in late debate, I still live on a gravel road and probably one of the few MLAs, I guess, so all of a sudden I'm considered in our caucus as being an expert on gravel roads. That being said, I've made a personal commitment to buying as much local as possible and my wife in the same way.
Last year, you know, I took that time to consider this and when I bought a quarter of a beef, or a few hundred pounds, or whatever it was - a quarter of a beef I think, or maybe half, it was a half a beef, I think it was an animal of about 550 to 600 pounds. So it was a very young animal, totally forage fed and probably even without very little, you know, finished grains. But I knew exactly the pasture that it fed on and how the farmer handled that head of cattle.
I'm at the point where we really need to be as blunt as, you know, do you know that beef you're buying in the store doesn't have MGOs in it? I think we need to be that blunt. I think we now need to do some TV ads with, do you really know where your food is coming from? That's where my next area is to talk about - local food production, because it is a big issue. It is a growing one and it may be one where we can capitalize and bridge to local food production here. That is a really significant question that more and more people are making the connection with a healthier life, or giving themselves the potential for a healthier life - the food that they eat.
[Page 39]
It's the same way with many of the fruits and vegetables that come from the U.S. They can use a series of pesticides, herbicides, insecticides that we can't in Canada. We put great stress on longitudinal testing of what farmers are allowed to use but we know that in other countries, the same safeguards and safety around foods do not exist. I think this may be a tie-in as well with our beef industry here that we can possibly capitalize on and promote some of the safest beef grown in North America by advancing, again, that local product.
In terms of the local campaign last year, I thought, got a good start. It got an initial boost from your department and the Select Nova Scotia Program had indeed great interest. Absolutely pleased to see in the budget that $350,000 will go toward it this year. Once again, I am wondering how is that going to break down to move the Buy Local initiative to another level of education, of informing and of really engaging Nova Scotians to do a greater changeover and transition to buying local food? In some areas, and I am sure, Mr. Minister, you are aware, and I know some of us who are from the Annapolis Valley - some of the farm markets told us unequivocally that they saw a bigger take-up at their farm markets. So I am just wondering, what is in the plan for the next phase, the next level.
Once again, there are some good models out there, whether we look at Buy Ontario or we look at Get Real, Get Maine. We know that there have been some really strong initiatives that have been put forward. So I am just wondering, Mr. Minister, where we are going with this next level of investment.
MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Leo, for those questions. The budget for the program was originally $250,000 last year and we did spend, of course, more than that on the program. This year in the budget, of course, as you mentioned, it is $350,000 and there has been, honestly, overwhelming interest in the program. We have put an evaluation framework together and are doing an analysis of consumer awareness and acceptance and thus far the information flow is absolutely positive. There have been a lot of customer partnerships developed and some of the big players have assisted. Some of the smaller ones have been there right from the start, like the co-op. You know all that stuff. You pointed out a couple of other ways that we might consider even doing more and we have made note of that.
[6:15 p.m.]
The partnering with other Atlantic and Maritime Provinces will help create that regional focus and we are learning - although I guess we were first to the plate, we are very proud of that - that now P.E.I. and, in fact, New Brunswick, are in fact engaging in these campaigns and we want to work with them. We have industry partners. Government obviously hasn't done it by itself but we did the billboards and the advertisements in the store and Select Nova Scotia - the sandwich boards and all that
[Page 40]
stuff. We have, in fact, at the Department of Agriculture, hired a staff person dedicated solely - and we are very proud of this - to implementing the Select Nova Scotia Program.
I see Linda MacDonald has joined us and I think everybody in this room knows Linda has been very, very effective on the Buy Local and Select Nova Scotia front. I want to thank Linda for her great efforts and the team she has because it really is a team effort.
MR. GLAVINE: Could I jump in? Is Linda in charge of this program?
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, Linda is in charge of the program overall. Yes, that is right.
MR. GLAVINE: I was wondering because at some point, you know, our caucus - and perhaps, more importantly for Nova Scotians - having Linda and people from your department come before the standing committee and just give an update on what is happening, how it is developing and where we see it going. So I just wanted to check on that.
MR. TAYLOR: I am sure she would be delighted to do that. I can't speak for her but I am sure she would welcome the opportunity and that would be certainly another way, a good suggestion. The MLA is full of all kinds of good suggestions. (Laughter)
MR. GLAVINE: I don't know about that but, anyway, I was wondering where things are moving in terms of the Halifax farm market. We know that has absolutely been a gem and [microphone off] before the Buy Local was really starting to take off in this province. I am just wondering, where that is now in the scheme of development. Farmers from across, actually, mainland and Valley and South Shore, a tremendous number of farmers - that Saturday market is a critical cash flow for their [microphone off]
MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Leo. We invested $2.9 million, this government, in terms of the Halifax Farm Market relocating and the market consortium themselves raised capital and have continued to raise capital. Quite frankly, we are also pointing out, or hope to point out and we made it clear, I guess, is what I am trying to say, that the $2.9 million is there, subject to [microphone off]. So certainly, our money, the taxpayers' money is there to support the new market because they have an exciting plan, conceptually, put together. Right now, I guess, I can only speak for the provincial government - our money is there and we sincerely hope that the other players will step up to the plate. Through the media, at least [microphone off].
The microphone is on and off, so I don't know if that is a signal. You go ahead. He wants you to speak now.
MR. GLAVINE: One of the areas that I am concerned about is the commitment to the liaison officers. I know in our area we have Agri-Point, and Agri-Point has gone
[Page 41]
through some changes with their board and perhaps with their focus as well. I still consider the liaison people very important connections from the farmer to the Department of Agriculture, right through to the deputy minister. They can be wonderful vehicles of information and frontline developments that I think can often, perhaps, show what trends are developing and pick up on some of the issues and the problems that they are experiencing.
I want to know if that commitment is going to be following through, partially or totally covered in this year's budget? I'd just like to know where that commitment stands today?
MR. TAYLOR: Leo, through you to the Chairman, I wonder if we could take a five minute recess?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, if you want a five minute recess, you have to ask the Chair. Would you like a five minute recess to go to the bathroom?
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, to you, Mr. Chairman, could we take . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would you like a Brooke break?
MR. TAYLOR: Yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, a five minute recess, we'll be back in five minutes. Then we will be going over to the NDP caucus.
[6:21 p.m. The subcommittee recessed.]
[6:25 p.m. The subcommittee resumed.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: All rightie, it is now 6:25 p.m. and the member for Hants East has the floor.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate another opportunity. I'm wondering, do I actually have an hour or has that been whittled away by . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have an hour. Well, we'll give you one, anyway.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: Thank you. Well, if the Progressive Conservative Government was so generous in so many other ways, I would really appreciate it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That's what we're known for.
[Page 42]
MR. MACDONELL: Well, minister, I want to come back to the hog industry. I'm assuming that other commodities have spoken to you and I think that the industry - when you set up the committee, that was to kind of look at transitioning the industry, and I think for all intents and purposes we regard that as looking into the Kelco report. It seems that the industry was kind of led down the garden path. That committee met for how long? A year, or a year and a half? Then it basically said no, we're not going there. So it would seem to me that the government could have indicated it much earlier on if they - it wasn't rocket science to figure out where the Kelco report was going so if government didn't want to go there, I think they could have just admitted that sooner.
MR. TAYLOR: Well, we indicated earlier, John, that the competitiveness transition project is aimed at helping the industry. Certainly Kelco, that component of the transition project was that, a component and element of it. But industry and government are continuing to work together to develop and analyze a range of options and possible recommendations, I believe, will come to government. The fact is, John, I have to ask you a question: Are you saying that we should have put an additional tax on the price of food?
MR. MACDONELL: No, I'm not saying that, actually - I kind of thought I'd clarify that with my notions around pork risk management. What I'm actually saying is, it would appear to me that you led the industry kind of down a road that you weren't really going and tied up some months with their expectation that you were serious about looking at transition from that report. That's all I'm saying.
MR. TAYLOR: Well, you know what the report said and what the outcome was and I didn't feel it appropriate to intervene, as minister, and tell the committee and the stakeholders at the time because we had found that some of the information that came forward was very, very helpful and is still helpful today, as we try to find what we hope will be a winning solution that will be in the best interest to the agriculture industry. So while we didn't adopt, I guess, the primary recommendation that came out of it, we did feel that there was justification to let the team work and, as a consequence now, we have a competitive transition team that is still engaged and will be coming back to the government.
But again, some of the producers have transitioned not just in the pork industry but in other sectors as well, to different models that are more profitable. They have received government assistance and encouragement along the way and that will continue.
[6:30 p.m.]
MR. MACDONELL: Okay, thank you, minister. I'd like to come back to your correspondence to me from April 21, 2008, regarding my correspondence of April 10th where I posed this question. The government seemed to have discovered $300 million
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and it would seem to me that those things generally shouldn't come forward as a surprise, that over several months it should be abundantly clear to government that they're going to - these dollars are accumulating month to month and so with those dollars, with the Cabinet realization that those dollars do exist. Yet there was no movement to try to help the hog industry, even though you were encountering a windfall that you seemed to not expect.
In your correspondence to me, you state: In the past year, my department has written-off a significant portion of debt for individual producers, in addition to providing support to several strategic infrastructure initiatives as part of the industry's go-forward strategy.
So could you tell me what the several strategic infrastructure initiatives are?
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, thank you, John. As you know, in the fiscal year 2007-08, we did establish an infrastructure transition fund of $750,000. This year I think that fund is up to $1 million. There were a number of projects that were approved and just as soon as we find that information, which is in our document here, we will share that with you.
There were some parameters around that. We do a call for RFPs and we received, oh I don't know, a dozen or so applications and we had a committee in place - and I think it's important that you know this because the committee that was in place did an evaluation and had a criteria that was in place to do the assessment. Then they came back to me, as minister, with their recommendations to the letter - and I want to make it extremely clear, to the letter - knowing in fact that you have way more requests than you do have successful applicants. I adopted the recommendations of the infrastructure transition team right to the "T", and I just wanted to point that out.
There were 14, actually, applications and four were approved - two were in the apple industry, one was organic grain and there was one in organic apple - I'm going from my notes (Interruption) I think it was actually organic cheese, yes. I do apologize for not having, and, in fact, we will get you the actual names of those companies and their location. I think three were in the Valley and one in Antigonish County, if I remember correctly. Like I say, John, I'll pass that along - I know generally who they were and I know some of the ones that were unsuccessful.
As I said, this year - deputy, is it $1 million that's put into, and some of it is committed. (Interruption) Oh, I'm sorry, we paid out $1.5 million last year and this year it is $750,000, yes, okay, and we paid another $100,000 for pork. (Interruption) That went out and I think that was the tail end of the $500,000.
MR. MACDONELL: Okay, thank you, minister. Well unless the approval - one of the projects you mentioned was cheese, unless that was milk from hogs converted into
[Page 44]
cheese, I don't really understand what that's doing in this letter to support several strategic infrastructure initiatives. The letter is regarding the hog industry so I don't really see that any of those initiatives would actually pertain to the hog industry so that's the reason I asked the question.
MR. TAYLOR: Well, look, again, I could, well, as well as I indicated earlier, there has been a considerable complement investment in Tony's in Antigonish in the pork industry in terms of that particular piece of infrastructure. I can't speak to the individual provincial plants but I do know that the government has worked with him and continues to with him but, again, I do apologize because I don't have the specific dollars in the breakdown. We will, in fact, get you those details.
MR. MACDONELL: I would like to know, even if we're just talking about Tony's, if this was on the infrastructure side or the marketing side or, you know, a new product line, or whatever that might be. That would be interesting to know.
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, no, thank you, we'll try to get you that information.
MR. MACDONELL: I want to say, you talked about the $750,000. At the previous - let me see, 2007, so it was December 2006 - at the Federation of Agriculture, you announced $1.5 million but you guys didn't spend $1.5 million last year; you only spent $750,000. Actually you only budgeted for $750,000. So what happened? I mean you announced $1.5 million.
MR. TAYLOR: John, when I made that announcement on December 1, 2006, actually at the Federation's AGM, the announcement was $6 million over four years. We currently have $1.5 million committed and we have at least another $750,000 committed for this year. I'm confident over the four year period that the $6 million will, in fact, be invested and the promise kept.
MR. MACDONELL: Is that like the ten new employees, similar to that promise?
MR. TAYLOR: Well, yes, that will be another promise that will be kept. If you meant, are we keeping our promises - yes, we are. We plan on . . .
MR. MACDONELL: If we all live long enough.
MR. TAYLOR: Well, you know, that's a good point there. I can't guarantee that for anybody but we're praying in that front.
MR. MACDONELL: Can you tell me, I'm just looking at the Finance Minister's Address, the Nova Scotia Budget Address, Page 13.
[Page 45]
MR. TAYLOR: In what book, John?
MR. MACDONELL: It's the address by the minister.
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, I have it here.
MR. MACDONELL: You mention this: To assist industries and companies in transition, we will invest $34.9 million over three years from the new federal community development trust fund. So from this, $750,000 will go to the agricultural industry vitalization strategy with $250,000 slated for the beef industry. Okay, so this is federal money?
MR. TAYLOR: The community development trust is, you know, a federal program. Pardon me? (Interruption) Yes, in total, it's a $1 billion commitment that they made and $750,000 of that, I'm proud to say, is going to go into that vitalization strategy.
MR. MACDONELL: So - I'm trying to pick up on the whispering (Laughter) - is that for one year? Is that $750,000 for one year but we're talking only one year?
MR. TAYLOR: It's for but, you know, we plan on continuing that into the future. It is for this fiscal year but we do plan on carrying it through. We think that it's in a place where it's needed and hopefully - with the support of the members opposite - we will get the budget through and bring that plan to fruition.
MR. MACDONELL: So is that on the idea that it will be federal money continued through or is that the province is going to - it seems odd to say you are going to have an agricultural industry vitalization strategy in your budget but you are using federal money as part of your provincial budget. So I guess I want to know, if it is going to continue, is it coming out of provincial coffers after this year?
MR. TAYLOR: John, as I said, my hope is that it will continue. I am very proud that we were able to, as a province, collectively bring $34.9 million to the province from that federal program. The government saw fit to help us establish this vitalization program. Our plan is to run this program, vitalization strategy, for three years at least. So I will make that commitment here today that it will be for at least three years and maybe there will be justification to go longer but it is planned to be for three years.
MR. MACDONELL: So that is $750,000 a year for three years.
MR. TAYLOR: Yes.
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MR. MACDONELL: Okay, because I was just looking at the $250,000 slated for the beef industry, so I was just curious as to whether that was three times $250,000 to make $750,000.
What is the agriculture industry vitalization strategy? What is it?
MR. TAYLOR: As I told you earlier, John, your Leader brought up today about the long-term plan for agriculture. We have been working with the stakeholders who come back with an agriculture framework and I don't think even the NDP would say that there is any magic bullet or in fact, you know, a magic wand out there that you can automatically say, look, here is the long-term plan because, quite frankly, it varies from commodity to commodity to commodity. But we want to do - and we are working, for example, in the beef strategy. I know they have many, many challenges; I haven't said differently. The framework will be the overall design of a sustainable and profitable agriculture industry but we are not, you know, we know that there are areas that require more assistance than others.
I think even you would agree, this is a new program that the federal government has put in place and we were successful, you know, bringing money to the province. We are crafting up what we hope will be parameters that will be mindful of the challenges and hopefully lead us to that, that will be part of the solution for the long-term strategy for the industry as a whole. I can't specifically say because we haven't actually worked out the details at this stage as to how the program might come together.
MR. MACDONELL: Thank you. If you don't mind, I will just hold my skepticism into the future, considering an announcement of $1.5 million that really became $750,000. I wondered what are you actually planning on doing with the $250,000 slated for the beef industry?
MR. TAYLOR: Firstly, we are working with them and when we get the beef strategy, through the Nova Scotia Cattlemen's Association, then we would be more clearly able to articulate, actually where each and every dollar is going. As I said earlier, we do believe in the beef sector, and we believe in the leadership of the Nova Scotia cattlemen. They have some plans, some that I will be able to share a little later on this year as to where they want to go. They have made a request. Of course, they would like to see more money.
I could just throw out an example, if I would. The beef testing station, and I know you know it quite well and you know Mr. Ward, who advocates very strongly on behalf of it, a constituent of mine. It may be that the Nova Scotia cattlemen decide that is part of their strategy or it may be that they decide that it isn't. Well, for example, we want to see the strategy that the beef sector has developed in cooperation and in concert with this department. When we get that, we will be able to assist, but you have to understand that
[Page 47]
in order to effect the strategy, they need monetary to work with. I think you would admit that this government has the vision to try to get the money to help them with some of their needs, some of their priorities. That's where we're heading with that. That will be a decision that we will make together with them.
[6:45 p.m.]
MR. MACDONELL: Okay. I guess it just seems odd that you've come up with a figure of $250,000 for a strategy you haven't seen yet, so you don't know whether that comes within a country mile of what they might want to do.
MR. TAYLOR: You know, it's not safe to say that, I think you're implying that $250,000 - a quarter of a million dollars - is the investment this government would make in the beef strategy.
MR. MACDONELL: Well, from what you just said, that's what I'm thinking.
MR. TAYLOR: Not necessarily. That is to a system with the development, with some initiatives. As well, we have, at their request, found $2 million to help the farmers and some of that, I wouldn't sit here and say it's going to go to transition or to the beef strategy because of cash management issues that the farmer is dealing with.
But, this money here will assist with the strategy, and there are some areas. As you know, we have federal-provincial business risk management programs and we shouldn't forget those programs because there is a considerable investment made on those fronts as well like AgriInvest and AgriStability and a couple of other elements of the federal-provincial programs that are going to assist the beef strategy. The beef plant in P.E.I. will assist.
Again, it comes down to justification, needs and requests, but right now the request has been to assist them with a quarter million dollars. We have outlined some expectations that we have that they might consider as being part of their strategy, but it will be without a doubt, if you look at all the programming in the beef sector, it certainly is a considerable amount more than $250,000. This is part of the government's help to assist them.
MR. MACDONELL: Do you know if there is any part of that $1.9 million that's not going to producers, that's not going to be applied for? What's the uptake on your program? Is there going to be $250,000 left over from that? Do you have any notion?
MR. TAYLOR: The most recent update that I have is that we will be over budget on the $1.9 million, John, being very honest. We have, at this point, paid out - I think it's very close to $1.5 million or $1.6 million - and there is still more information coming in
[Page 48]
from the federal government on beef farmers that weren't in the years we identified for the annual net sales.
MR. MACDONELL: Okay.
MR. TAYLOR: We expect, the estimate is that we will go over the $1.9 million.
MR. MACDONELL: Is there a cut off time-wise on that money or, just when the money's gone, the money's gone? I mean, if there is still money in the fund that hasn't been accessed, but someone showed up in x months wanting to apply . . .
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, there was actually a deadline in the advertisement when you had to apply by and I would have to go back and look, I'm not 100 per cent sure what date it was. It might have been the end of February.
MR. MACDONELL: I'll come back to your correspondence to me regarding the hog producers: For those individual producers who do see a future for themselves in the hog industry, my department continues to provide support to them through a number of business development programs and services.
So I'm just wondering what those business development programs and services are?
MR. TAYLOR: As I indicated earlier, we are working with the producers on a case-by-case basis. A lot of that is through the Nova Scotia Farm Loan Board and Derrick Jamieson and his staff. There are some programs that are within the Department of Agriculture that are in place to assist. Generally that is more in the way of information flow than, in fact, it is through anything in terms of funding, and I would point that out.
We've responded to your letter but you've raised a couple of areas there that we could be and will be more specific on, if you would . . .
MR. MACDONELL: Yes, I would appreciate that, actually, because it does strike me as being kind of generic in the response. So I would really like to know, and I think as a critic for agriculture, I have to say for all my time of being the Critic, and you can understand getting tied up being an MLA just trying to do things for your constituents, there's a lot about the department that I don't know as far as programs. Anyway, it's still an education for me so I would appreciate that very much if you could kind of nail that down a little bit more.
When we started the supply here today, you mentioned about moving through a period of transition in the agriculture industry generally. I guess for me, when it comes to the hog industry, I didn't see much opportunity for transition. You talked about
[Page 49]
omega-3 and I think it was natural pork that had been discussed within the industry, these isowean hogs, but when I talked to people in the industry, omega-3 hogs were getting a $6.00 premium over, say, commodity pork. For producers who were losing $60 per hog, that meant they only lost $54. So I didn't really see moving - I didn't see transitioning to be a particularly helpful way to go, although it was something that you had indicated on many occasions.
To me, the notion of transitioning to these other model wouldn't be appropriate unless they actually got you a premium that got you a price closer to your costs of production, and it's sounding more and more like the isowean thing isn't really going to pay out either. You talked about a safe and secure food supply, so I'm wondering how you're planning to do that? How is your department going to be an intervenor to ensure that we have a safe and secure - and I'm not sure if you mean by secure as bio-sanitary reasons that it's secure health-wise, which I think we all appreciate that, but I'm thinking of secure in that we grow enough food to feed the people. That's how I look at secure.
So what is your strategy around safe and secure?
MR. TAYLOR: Well, first of all, we have, I think - even the NDP would acknowledge - a fairly successful Select Nova Scotia Program, a Buy Local campaign. Consumers are very, very concerned about not only the safety and security of their food, but they're very concerned about the origin of their food.
Having said that, John, you point out that the isowean model isn't working, the North American model isn't working. There are some niche markets, there are some farmers who have become more efficient than other, even in the pork sector. Not every farmer is losing $56 a pig - too many are, there's no doubt about that. But again, I have said and I've been very honest with the farmers, you don't get any praise or accolades for telling some that they have to consider an exit strategy. We're not afraid to say that because it actually is a fact. When your feed costs, when your input costs, transportation and everything else exceeds - your cost of production is so high that your return sees you raising pigs that are costing you $60 more than you are actually getting for them.
They've tried, I mean I don't know - you know if you're saying here well, okay, if we can't get Nova Scotia pork, I don't think we're ever going to get to that point. Do we have as many pork producers? No. Larsen's is still in business - in fact, they are advertising for hourly employees and for salaried employees right in the riding of the honourable member for Kings West, they are advertising for employees. You know, 1,800 pigs a week are coming from P.E.I., besides what we're producing. Tony's is doing some fantastic work on different brands, working with Sobeys - I think that's very fine pork.
[Page 50]
I will emphasize again and I have said to the industry, much to the chagrin of some, that some clearly have to transition to models that are more productive, more profitable, more sustainable. They can't continue to compete in the old North American model and they recognize that. The government has put over $17 million into the industry, some of that has gone to transition - you may dispute that but the fact of the matter is, it has. In fact, just the last budget year $500,000 was set aside for the pork industry. The last cheques went out to the isowean folks just a couple of weeks ago.
The government, the taxpayers of this province had been there but we can't prop up an industry that isn't sustainable and frankly, we're not going to. I can't be any more clear than that, John.
MR. MACDONELL: I think I heard you and I think I heard you the first time. I'm just wondering about the safe and secure food supply statement you made. I'd just like to know how you're going to do that? What's your plan on that?
MR. TAYLOR: I indicated in my comments that our food safety inspectors have done over 9,700 inspections on an average basis over the last few years and that's in a variety of facilities throughout the province. Consumer complaints have reduced by 28 per cent and reports of suspected food-borne illnesses have been reduced by 26 per cent of the last four years. In fact, we're acknowledged in some circles as leaders in food safety and security, so we'll continue on that front and, in fact, we hope to - I shouldn't pick a month because you'll hold me to it - this year be able to put up the food inspection reports online. I'm not sure so I won't say the month but we do expect to be able to do that, John, this fiscal year. I believe it will be done during the course, perhaps, of the summer - these people are nodding in acknowledgement - June, very soon in June, yes, okay.
MR. MACDONELL: Is that at restaurants? Did you say 9,700 food safety inspections? Is that at restaurants or where is that?
MR. TAYLOR: We do food inspections, of course, at restaurants but there are inspectors as well that do your abattoirs, fish plants. There are inspections that go on pretty well every day and a goodly number of them.
MR. MACDONELL: So what's your definition then of secure? It's not clear to me, your statement, safe and secure food supply, what's your definition of secure then?
MR. TAYLOR: Well, I guess it is just that, in those broad terms. I believe that if you have a system - and we're part of the global system when you look at it in that broad context - and we have those standards in place that ensure the security of our food, then I would take it that it is secure.
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MR. MACDONELL: I don't think you can use secure in the definition of secure, so it's not clear to me what you mean.
MR. TAYLOR: I guess from where I am speaking, we have a safe supply of food.
MR. MACDONELL: That makes sense, I know what's . . .
MR. TAYLOR: Are you saying we don't have a secure supply of food?
[7:00 p.m.]
MR. MACDONELL: No, I'm asking you what you mean - if you can define secure? I understand safe but I don't understand what you mean by secure in your statement. I'm just asking if you can explain it?
MR. TAYLOR: I guess where I come from, to me, food security means buying local, supporting locally-produced products. There are some arrangements in place that deal with the securing of our food through partners that have been established historically from one end of this country to the other.
I know that in some of the developing countries, quite frankly, there is a food crisis. Yesterday, the federal government found $50 million to help with food aid. We have environmental plans, we have market and trade support, we have extension workers through as far as safety and security - I tie the two together, I really do, I think it's important that we do. We have research and development in terms of security of food, it takes place at the NSAC. To me, that's security. I feel confident that the arrangements we have, that our retailers have, that our processors have, that our producers have will continue to sustain and we will continue to have secure food.
MR. MACDONELL: I'm thinking from what you're saying, you mean secure supply and you mentioned about buy local, so that would indicate that you're hoping to have more supply locally. But as far as the retailers and so on go, they say if the New Brunswick border was to shut down for a day, that the shelves in most of our grocery stores would be empty in 24 hours. I think it's a bit worrisome about just how much supply - I think we all know that we're in relatively good shape on the supply managed side. Because of the quota system, we meet our provincial demand and that's the margin.
We can't increase their market share without an increase in population, really, so we do meet our needs on the supply managed side, I think, except for the turkeys where we used to only produce 60 per cent. I think that number is probably down from that but I haven't looked at that for awhile.
You mentioned about Buy Local or Select Nova Scotia and how successful it was so I'm wondering what are you using as the metre stick to measure success? How do you
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determine that your Buy Local campaign is successful? Is there any way of knowing that there has actually been more Nova Scotia products sold in stores this year than last year? I'm really interested.
I went to my local co-op in Milford one day to just take a little walk around and determine what the Buy Local component was and how it was being advertised. I have to tell you, I only noticed it - and I was looking - at the horticulture, fruit and vegetable section. I think one of those carry out bags you had at your launch that day was stuck up on the wall and the produce below it was the local. That's what I understood it to mean, that was the Buy Local component. So I thought there was going to be some kind of labelling on that to say it was Nova Scotia. I don't think there was anything in the meat section that indicated local, so exactly how does this campaign work?
MR. TAYLOR: I'm glad actually that you did ask, John. As I told you, we had that broad stakeholder committee put together and I haven't heard anybody speak against that committee. They gave us lots of sage counsel as to how we could best promote the initiatives, the Select Nova Scotia initiative. For example, we placed flyers in daily and weekly newspapers that reached nearly 350,000 households . . .
MR. MACDONELL: And that went from when to when? Is that still going on?
MR. TAYLOR: No, that program isn't going on at this particular time but the department is still doing work on the next program for this fiscal year. There were radio advertisements that were broadcast on 27 radio stations across the province. There were 30 billboard and 12 bus shelter advertisements across the province. There is a website featuring producers, processors, local events and festivals, recipes with local products, profiles of agrifood producers and processors. There is a lot of material that were produced and distributed to over 100 companies in the retail and food service industry including stickers, table tent cards, door decals, outdoor banners, grocery list pads, t-shirts, bags and aprons.
I want to go on a little further regarding some of the information I have here. I can tell you, I think it was mentioned earlier by the Liberal Critic, that while some of this is the actual factual evidence as to what was taking place, we have heard - you can call it anecdotal or whatever you are - that it did raise public awareness and consumption. The Women's Institute for example, of course you know the work that they've done on this front and I do want to acknowledge the Women's Institute. I'm not sure that you're questioning the effectiveness of the program, you're just trying to discern how we measured it.
I did say earlier that in fact we did have an evaluation team put together, there were focus groups, there was data collected, there was customer feedback. There were different things in place from the consumer, the retailer, from everybody in that whole
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network. The feedback has been very positive. I didn't want you to think it just stopped. The advertising billboard, yes - we have to live within our means and we'd love to do it 365 days a year but the fact of the matter is, we can't afford to do that but it is ongoing. At certain times of the year, it's more promotional but we also hired a full-time staff member that's working on the program. If it would help, we would be pleased to give you the evaluation report. I don't think you would ever turn down information.
MR. MACDONELL: That would be interesting; I'd like to see that. When you talk about the focus groups and so on, I just want to know if that was after you started the program, or is that trying to establish a program, or to get some feedback from the public to know how to create your program, or if it was after the program started when after the program started? A month, two months, six months? I think most people if you ask them would say that was certainly the indication we were getting, that people would support a Buy Local program and that's why we had our initiative in February - actually government members said, oh we're already doing that. Then you created a program very similar to what we were advocating for.
It would seem to me that any focus group would be positive because it was positive to us before we launched an initiative in that regards. We could see that this was somewhere the public was actually ahead of us on. It would seem that your focus group would be positive afterward. The fact that the public likes it doesn't mean that we're really selling any more local produce or people are buying any more local produce or product. Did your focus group determine that? Are you actually able to know that there's x tons more of apples or x lettuce or anything that would indicate this program actually initiated a buying spree by Nova Scotians?
There was complaints that they couldn't find enough Nova Scotia beef. That information is gone back to the department so I'm just curious about what kind of information you have, when you got it and how you got it.
MR. TAYLOR: First of all you seem to imply that the NDP came out with a buy-local program and we copied it.
MR. MACDONELL: I am implying that.
MR. TAYLOR: I want to tell you clearly that your program, although I didn't see it in its entirety, I'd have to tell you that ours was a considerable bit different. The Ministerial Advisory Committee for Select Nova Scotia is comprised of industry and government representatives, including representatives from the Municipality of Kings, Atlantic Canadian Council of Grocery Distributors, Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers, the Women's Institute in Nova Scotia, Nova Scotia Restaurant Association, Chicken Producers of Nova Scotia, and the Nova Scotia Department of Agriculture. Nowhere did you or your leader ever say, if I might, that you would actually bring a
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committee together. You were telling Nova Scotians that, look, Buy Local is what you want so let's be honest, let's give credit where credit is due.
MR. MACDONELL: Well, you're the government . . .
MR. TAYLOR: We put our money where our mouth is . . .
MR. MACDONELL: Which is what we want you to do.
MR. TAYLOR: It has been promised for years and years. We delivered on the program, it's good and you're sitting there questioning the consumer feedback, the focus groups. Yes, we put a program together before and after. The feedback's been positive every where we go. We'd like to have more to put into it but, are you questioning the validity of it, that it didn't raise consumer awareness?
MR. MACDONELL: I don't know just where to start. When I came to the House in 1998, the minister was in Opposition. I'm thinking the minister was in Opposition for some years prior to 1999. If the minister's thinking that the New Democratic Party as the Opposition were going to bring in a program then you obviously have forgotten how the funding levels occur for the particular Parties. It seems to me that the government is the one that has the greater capability to bring in a program, not us. We're glad you did that.
The question I'm really asking is this: It's one thing to say it's successful because I know people would like it, that was an obvious fact - I just want to know what your parameters are for determining that it's successful. Are you going by an increased consumption of Nova Scotia product? If you're getting a lot of complaints that people are looking for a particular product that they can't get like Nova Scotia beef, then I would see that as successful. That actually means that people are tuned in to this, they're looking for it, they can't get it, and they're sending out that kind of information. I guess really what I'm asking and I think as an Opposition critic this is my role to ask these questions. I'm a little bit curious to know when you say it's been successful I think I have a right to ask how you are determining that. That's really what I'm doing.
MR. TAYLOR: I do appreciate that. I'm not questioning bringing it forward at all. What I'm saying is the objectives of Select Nova Scotia have been met. One of those objectives was to increase awareness through the mechanisms and tools that we have put in place plus the unofficial feedback and I consider that. I don't know if you do, but I do happen to listen to coffee shop chatter and into my co-ops and into my stores. You don't have to be part of a committee, part of a focus group to support the Buy Local initiative. So, I've received all positive feedback on awareness and some of it has been by way of these mechanisms that we put in place so yes, that's how we measure awareness.
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Knowledge surrounding locally produced foods was one of our objectives. We promoted the benefits of buying local and the positive impacts of buying local. The evaluation that we have through the Ministries Advisory Committee has been positive. I outline the composition of that. The Atlantic Canadian Council of Grocery Distributors, you know how big that network is, they're saying yes it did. Did they say the number of tons last year versus this year - no, I don't have that. I don't think you expect me to have that. You know it's a good program, you know that it's a good program and the awareness and the evaluation of that program. I think just by the very fact that you're speaking about Select Nova Scotia and the whole philosophy behind it, in a positive way, would lend me to believe that actually - I can't speak for your caucus - but I do believe that you support it.
[7:15 p.m.]
MR. MACDONELL: Well yes, I do. I guess what I'm trying to kind of - you know the shortest distance between two points is a straight line and I'm trying to somehow connect your comment that it's successful, to me it would be successful if people are consuming more Nova Scotia product because I would see that as one incentive for the program, the reason that you started down this road of a Select Nova Scotia was to select Nova Scotia.
If people are not selecting Nova Scotia, if they're not buying more Nova Scotia product, then that only means one of two things. Either there isn't any Nova Scotia product for them to buy - but you would think they would be complaining because you're already saying that you had an education program and so on - or that they're not interested. I think they are interested and it would seem to me that if the amount of Nova Scotia product consumed is not going up - and maybe you can well it has only been one year, but certainly over time I would think that the department would be interested, since it is supposed to be a promoter of Nova Scotia agriculture, that it would see that an increase in consumption of Nova Scotia product would be a significant marker to determine the success of their Select Nova Scotia program. That's really what I'm saying.
MR. TAYLOR: Well, John, all I can tell you is that we are going to share the evaluation report with you. We're telling you clearly, our indicators are that it has all been positive. Some information that retailers have, they are reticent to share - I mean, a lot of it is proprietary. I think you understand that. It's not like saying we burnt 50 gallons last week, this week we burned 60 gallons. I can tell you that awareness and consumption, based on our evaluation which is very professional, and my unofficial opinion, and I'd like to share it with you, is that it has been extremely positive. We're please with it. In fact, we have raised the budget from $250,000 to $350,000.
The producers who have shared their information with us have told us, have said, and you may say this is anecdotal but I certainly believe them and I think you do - the
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consumers told us that they bought more and the producers told us that they sold more. We're going to get the report to you, I hope you're satisfied with that because if you're not, I don't know what else to do but maybe you and I will have to go shopping.
MR. MACDONELL: Well that's a good first step, I think - just what you said. If your evaluation report indicates that, then certainly I would see that as something that indicates the program is working. The whole positive ambiance of Select Nova Scotia, you don't have to sell me on that. I think - well, I know you'll say it was your idea and not ours, so that's good enough. We're in the business with coming up with good ideas and if governments will adopt them, that's what we think our role is.
MR. TAYLOR: You're supporting the budget?
MR. MACDONELL: Well ask me in a few days.
You mention about door decals and stickers, so I mean the door decal thing seems pretty obvious but stickers, where would I expect to see them? On a bag of produce or just on the shelf, indicate that this section is local? How are they used?
MR. TAYLOR: Well I know like when we rolled that thing out, I think you were there at the Provincial Exhibition last August, there were some details that were handed out to individuals and retailers and things of that nature. I think we did have a pretty good uptake from the retailers but you know we didn't actually, as far as I understand it, we don't have an arrangement where you can actually put that on the specific product. You have to actually do the shelf. You can do the shelf or the - and there was a lot of that which did go on.
I wish we could do more on the branding but a lot of them have their own rights to the product and the labelling that takes place. To me it seems simple but it's not, quite honestly. Certainly keeping availability in mind, we work with any company that would request the decals.
MR. MACDONELL: I want to switch gears a little bit. I want to come back to the beef sector but in kind of a different way. I think, if I understand it correctly, the federal government has allocated $6 million, and I'm not sure if that's nationally. I think it's - I'm assuming it's nationally but it might be just for Nova Scotia - for the transport of specific risk material from BSE. So can you tell me what we're doing with our specific risk material in Nova Scotia? Are we trucking that to Quebec here?
MR. TAYLOR: Can I answer that in a very short answer? Yes.
MR. MACDONELL: Well, if you can give me an appropriate answer, sure.
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MR. TAYLOR: Yes, we are, John. I do have a note here and I'd like to share it with you, regarding the specific risk material. As you know, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency put forward the decree on SRMs and that they had to be out of . . .
MR. MACDONELL: They couldn't go to rendering . . .
MR. TAYLOR: That's right - and the federal government did - I'm wondering where, in fact - I think your figure is accurate but I'm not sure of . . .
MR. MACDONELL: $6 million.
MR. TAYLOR: I think it was more than that, for specific. The federal government, you know, they started the - they came in with the decree and then they offered the one-time funding to get you on the road to disposal, et cetera, and it was $6 million, over three years.
We are still in negotiations with them, on how to continue going forward because there are some challenges and all the other provinces are with us on that front, so we're hoping that some future agreement can be arranged, as we go forward on the SRM removal and disposal.
MR. MACDONELL: What about composting? I think we're one of the few provinces - I think our Department of Environment calls it hazardous waste or something like that? That's the BSE, the specific risk materials.
MR. TAYLOR: The minister is here.
MR. MACDONELL: Well yes, I'm glad the minister is here because I know he can't respond but I might try to get him during Environment, but at least he'll have a heads up and maybe he'll have an answer for me.
Anyway, am I right that our Department of Environment treats this material differently than, say, New Brunswick's Department of Environment?
MR. TAYLOR: Yes.
MR. MACDONELL: Do you have an explanation of why that is?
MR. TAYLOR: Well I can't speak for the Department of Environment but obviously we're bound as a department, as a Nova Scotian entity, to be in compliance. I know you understand that. Quite frankly, we can compost but it doesn't actually - you know you have the residual and you can't - in New Brunswick I believe you can, I can't - but I did have conversations with the Minister of Agriculture, who had conversations
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with their Minister of Environment and I find that on the specific risk material, there is a difference here. They do landfill, I think, in six different sites in New Brunswick and we don't have that in this case that . . .
MR MACDONELL: Capability.
MR. TAYLOR: That's right, yes, you're right on there.
MR. MACDONELL: Okay, one minute? Well I'll have to make it a good minute.
Look, here's something I want to throw out to you, and I know you can't - all you can say is thank you very much. You know this BSE specific risk material, I don't know, when you look at the dollars that are being spent for this material, why aren't we testing? I think you'll find that we have no BSE to speak of, and the little bit we would have, just haul that material away if you have to send it away.
Any discussion with the federal government CFIA? Testing is cheap.
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, John, that has been brought forward before and the CFIA feel the only way that this issue can be dealt with is through the total ban.
MR. MACDONELL: I know, . . . .
MR. TAYLOR: Different options, including ones put forward by this government, mindful of the incredible cost and probably a lot of it, I think, I would concur, I hope that it's unnecessary, quite honestly. I feel that it is but we're bound by those federal rules, as you would know.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Time has expired for the NDP. There's approximately 22 minutes left and I will now go to the member for Kings West.
MR. LEO GLAVINE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before the minister and his people took a little bit of a break, I had a repeat of the tough question, that is when my little orchard is in trouble and I need to call on a liaison officer to see where to take my problem, when am I going to be able to call the liaison officer and get a bit of help, Mr. Minister?
MR. TAYLOR: We do have - I'm sure you're familiar with the acronym ARC in the Valley and if it's orchards, with the Department of Agriculture's Peter Ridout. Mr. Ridout offers information to the fruit growers.
MR. GLAVINE: I think these people will not be named tomorrow but I think you also said that there would be a veterinarian that would be added as well.
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MR. TAYLOR: Yes, and again I think we're very, very close to - okay - but no, I can be a little more specific, Leo, they have been interviewed and we're extremely close to naming one. The interviews have been carried out and that will happen in the very near future.
MR. GLAVINE: I'll move on to more of the short snapper type of questions here, I guess. In terms of the infrastructure funding, have the recipients been identified for this coming year, or is that still a process?
MR. TAYLOR: That is still a process, yes, they haven't been identified. We've had a lot of interest expressed regarding that matter.
MR. GLAVINE: More than last year, in terms of the program?
MR. TAYLOR: I don't believe so. . .
MR. GLAVINE: I think there were around 13 or 14 application last year?
MR. TAYLOR: Yes. You know we won't know actually until we do the RFP call but there's certainly been a number of individual and organizations that have expressed interest in that program.
I'm sorry, Leo, the program actually did open the first of this month and it will go until the end of June - accept applications in that time frame.
MR. GLAVINE: Okay, thank you. One of the areas that during the BSE and continuing on, especially with the hog and perhaps now the beef challenges, CAIS did deliver some money to the province but we certainly found some deficiencies there, with mixed farming and smaller farm operations. I'm wondering if provincially, we have met on this issue with the federal minister and the federal Department of Agriculture, and said, you know, we need some fine tuning for our particular mixed farm operations in Nova Scotia, and really in Atlantic Canada - I guess we're really talking about.
[7:30 p.m.]
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, we have brought that forward, Leo. The industry is very diversified and we face here in the province some real unique challenges. We're committed to an agreement that meets Nova Scotia's needs. In fact, at the federal-provincial territorial meetings, Atlantic Canada was the leader in encouraging the federal government to amend the old case program and now - you've probably heard the term AgriInvest. That is in place and that's somewhat similar to the old NISA program where the upper 15 per cent of your loss would, in fact, be matched dollar for dollar by the government and there are no triggers.
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After much debate, it was decided right across the country that for one year - and maybe it was two years - that there wouldn't be any triggers as to how the producer actually made the expenditure regarding those monies. The other 85 per cent - if there's a disruption in the income flow, that would be sent out later on in the year, at the end of the fiscal year after the data is sent in. Again, if you received a cheque from AgriStability, that would be on that 60-40 formula.
We believe with the management, or at least with those adjustments alone, it could recognize that farmers in Nova Scotia have needs that are very, very much different than farmers in the west. The term I use, the old cookie cutter approach don't always work. There are some companion programs and things of that nature, especially going to transition from the old agriculture policy framework to the new agriculture policy framework where there's an assigned one year extension agreement with the government to continue some of the programs that have been ongoing so it's as least disruptive as possible.
MR. GLAVINE: I'll leave it at that because there was a number of areas I wanted to touch on and have a very short time, actually. In your opening comments, you talked about how the niche areas and some of the high end products do have great potential and therefore need to get those kinds of emphasis from the department. Two of those are wine and cranberries. They require considerable start-up investment and I know in the Valley, we've been fortunate to bring along or to have investors with pretty deep pockets come to those particular industries.
I'm wondering how the department is working to foster that investment and to continue to grow those industries. Last year, it was quite startling to find that no longer was it just Ocean Spray and a few of the big players in the cranberry industry, but pharmaceutical companies coming in and looking for a cranberry product because of the health benefits from cranberries.
Wine, I guess, we can talk about on another occasion about its benefits, but anyway, just wondering what the department is planning or preparing and if you're working on an agriculture strategy, how you can assist and foster and grow those particular industries.
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, Leo, you're absolutely right. We have a full-time officer in place that's working with the wine industry and we're working, of course, with the organization as well as individual wine producers in the province. We certainly plan on continuing on that front. Yes, the investment by the individual producer is quite substantive. Of course, there's quite a little lull there between the time you invest if you're starting from scratch until you actually receive a return.
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Again, the announcement that was made in the Valley - in fact, the honourable member for Kings South, I think, was able to stand with the federal minister and make an announcement regarding the federal-provincial investment that would take place to again assist with, you know, a replacement of vineyards. So there is some help on that front and, of course, like I say, we have the full-time employee on that file as well. So it, you know, can be a very lucrative industry for the producer.
MR. GLAVINE: One of the other areas I was wondering about is, how many employees would there be here in the Department of Agriculture? Just a ballpark - I don't need the actual number and a list of them at this time but I'm just wondering how many are here in the department?
MR. TAYLOR: You mean here in Halifax?
MR. GLAVINE: Yes, in the offices?
MR. TAYLOR: If you're looking for a ballpark, I'll have to give you that ballpark. In Halifax here, we have about 70 employees. In the Truro/Colchester area, we have somewhere around 400 employees. Then out in the different regions of the province there are probably another 70 employees. So, you know, we're talking 540 approximately.
MR. GLAVINE: Not that I was, you know, voicing a position of our Party or anything about decentralization because really the Agriculture Department is spread out pretty considerably across the province, but I was wanting to get, you know, actual numbers because having a strong presence in the agricultural predominant areas and geographic locations, I think, is indeed very important.
That leads me to the area that could prove to be somewhat troublesome and that is the review of the federal agricultural stations - Kentville being one of those. Have you made any submission or had any discussions at this stage in regards to the future of the Kentville Research Station?
MR. TAYLOR: I haven't made a formal submission in writing to the federal minister. I have had conversations with both the outgoing federal Minister of Agriculture, the former minister Chuck Strahl, and the current minister Gerry Ritz, but I have not made an official submission. I know they are under review and it is certainly of concern.
MR. GLAVINE: I'm moving over the map here a little bit because there are lots of other areas of agriculture. One of the areas that was recently brought to my attention by a farmer was the dumping of milk. I'm just wondering again what would be, I guess, an approximation of the kind of litres of milk that are dumped? In other words, farmers are exceeding their quotas and it's my understanding that farmers, you know, do dump
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milk. It poses and raises a number of questions and I'm just wondering if the department monitors this?
MR. TAYLOR: We're going to have to - and this is our first on this front in terms of a response - I would like to get you some information perhaps on that from the department. I have actually heard the same claim - I know it has happened in the past, in fact. I'm not so sure it's as prevalent today as it had been but in the supply managed and the quota system, we will get you the information on that front.
MR. GLAVINE: Thank you. In terms of exhibitions, I see exhibitions across Nova Scotia as a great way to promote agriculture generally - buy local some of our manufactured products relating to agriculture. I know last year the association made presentations, I think, perhaps to all of the caucuses, but they have some challenging times around renewing their infrastructure, keeping their buildings up to code and so forth.
There was a wonderful tie-in some years ago when Atlantic Lottery started and there was a percentage that went to the exhibitions. I think maybe you remember that, Mr. Minister, and I know that would be, again, a wonderfully acceptable piece to Atlantic Canadians if even there was a small tie-in to Atlantic Lottery and the promotion and growth of our exhibitions. I'm just wondering - I haven't drilled down on the budget directly to see whether or not government, through their budget, is actually going to expand a little more for exhibitions or if this idea is one that you're prepared to advance to Atlantic Lottery, in terms of assisting, promoting and seeing the growth of exhibitions in the province?
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, I thank the member for speaking on this issue. Just two weeks ago, we met with the Provincial Exhibition Committee. While we are not responsible for the Atlantic Lottery Corporation, we're very mindful that, in fact, there was a time they did receive their funding through those means. They have requested that the government come forward with more funding for the exhibitions. Keeping in mind that those exhibitions and fairs are extremely important to rural Nova Scotia, I've had an opportunity to attend a number of the exhibitions.
I was very fortunate, even before I became an MLA, to get around to some of our exhibitions and then as an MLA and now Minister of Agriculture. Keeping in mind that they have a number of needs and priorities, I committed to increase their budget, quite frankly, and we're going to do that. We can't answer all their requests, but, in fact, it has been sitting at the same level of funding - I think it's $176,000 - for a number of years. I am pleased to say that we are going to increase their budget and we did tell them that.
MR. GLAVINE: I think the kind of importance was really demonstrated in our community just a week ago and perhaps the members for Kings North and Kings South
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were approached to help in a fundraiser for the Annapolis County Exhibition, where they had some items stolen through the winter. The response was fantastic, a great turn-out to a dinner and auction and they raised about $13,000 to help replace that equipment. It shows on short notice how valuable they are regarded, so I just wanted to see if the minister and department were on track there.
One last area, I was wondering when I look at the amount of land in Annapolis County, it's almost like an agricultural land bank. There's such an extensive amount there that is not in production, which is unfortunate for our province. I'm wondering if there has ever been any request for international leasing of lands? We know that Nova Scotia Agri-Business - a couple of companies go to Cuba and to a South American country and lease land and grow a crop and bring the product back. I'm wondering if we've ever had any kind of request along those areas?
[7:45 p.m.]
MR. TAYLOR: You know, as a department, regarding the agriculture strategy and framework we spoke about a little earlier, that is something that we are looking at and, in fact, I received some correspondence from Kings County Council. I know certainly the MLA for Kings South has spoken on the issue and brought the matter up to me. It is an issue and we, as a department, hope that it can be part of the go-forward framework for the agriculture community. If you followed the meetings at Kings County Council, along those lines, you know that it can be a very controversial issue. We want to be there to support the agriculture community and, again, I trust it will be part of the framework as we go forward. I don't know if we can be the perfect solution but we want to be part of it.
MR. GLAVINE: One last question, Mr. Minister, and I do thank you for your time if I don't get a chance here at the end, and your deputy and department. One of the areas you talked about was trying to attract people to agriculture and to promote and help develop young farmers. One of the concerns that came my way that was raised was the assistance with the young farmers leadership seminar or forum and I am wondering if you have reconsidered being a considerable sponsor, as the other provinces are, toward that leadership initiative?
MR. TAYLOR: You know it is something that we certainly, like I say, would consider. Some of my friends are telling me that it is something that we did . . .
MR. GLAVINE: But not at the level of the other three provinces. I think they are gold sponsors for the event and I think our province gives a few crumbs, if I could be a little impolite here. We certainly don't support as the other provinces do.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. The time allotted for estimates for the day has expired. We will reconvene tomorrow and the Liberal caucus will have approximately 38 minutes left in their hour and then it will go back to the NDP. I thank you for your time.
MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. MLA from the banana belt.
[The subcommittee adjourned at 7:48 p.m.]
