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HALIFAX, TUESDAY, JULY 11, 2006
SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY
12:46 P.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Alfred MacLeod
MR. CHAIRMAN: Welcome again, and we're going to continue with the estimates of the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture.
The honourable member for Digby-Annapolis.
MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: First of all, I want to start off and talk about the owner/operator licence a bit, just for the record, for the people I represent. A lot of fishermen in my area, the Digby County area, who are owner/operators and probably 70 per cent of those people believe in keeping that owner/operator going for the sake of the coastal communities.
It was put into place by Romeo LeBlanc, back in 1979, and that's what that was put in place for, was to protect, and I'm talking about not the whole fishery, I'm talking about the 44'11" and under. The inshore fishery mainly. I think that's more the problem than the other sectors of the 45- to 65-foot range and from there on up. The smaller boats seem to be scattered around the coastlines more and they are more community related, and that's what this owner/operator is supposed to do, protect these small communities and keep them together.
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My family has been in the fishery for 15 generations, on the East Coast of Nova Scotia, since the early 1600s, when my forefather first came here. I'm French Acadian on my father's side and my mother is Irish. So a little mix there. I don't know whether it's good or bad. Anyway, for 15 generations, we've gone on in the fishing business. I'm 13th, myself and my grandchildren are the 15th, which, I hope, the fishery is still around when my grandchildren are prepared to go into the fishery.
I've stepped away from the fishery this past few years. One reason is because my whole family has been in the western area of this province for 13 generations to me, and everyone who is still alive in my family is still in that area, and to keep my children in that area, I have four boys and a daughter. My daughter works in Yarmouth in the veterans' hospital and my three boys are in the fishing business. I saw one way to help keep them here, was for me to walk away from what I worked for all my life. I built up quite a little enterprise through my lifetime of 35 years of fishing and whale watching, and in ground fishery, and the ground fishery went bad 15 years ago, it started. We stepped away from that and went into the tourism business of going to see the whales.
Anyway, I stepped away from that to let my children take over, so they wouldn't end up where a lot of our children are leaving for right now, and that's out West. So, I made the commitment that I would step away from it and do whatever I had to do to give my children a chance to be here, the same as 13 generations of us was, and they are the14th, and now they have the grandchildren of the 15th. I hope and pray that the 15th generation can stay here also.
So, this owner/operator concept means a lot to me, personally, but it means a lot to probably 60 or 70 per cent of the people who live in my area, of Digby-Annapolis, and further beyond that, but I represent the people of Digby-Annapolis, and if we keep seeing this being eroded the way it has been, I can see the 15th generation not being able to do what 14 generations of us have, and that's quite a serious thing to me, big time.
I've worked at this for many, many years, and pushed and shoved wherever I could, and tried to keep this and bring this to the forefront. Finally, two years ago, or a year and a half ago, it was decided that it would be done, that this would be worked on, and John Hanlon took this on. John Hanlon took this on and worked with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans of Ottawa, and John Hanlon has done a report. I don't know what's in it, I don't know if this department knows what's in it, the provincial department, but I'm hoping there's something in there that will say the 15th generation of my family, and probably a lot of other families, can continue on in the fishery.
My question on that is, will the provincial Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture contact, or work closely with John Hanlon right away to see if this will come to the forefront, this report, possibly before the end of this year, even before Fall if it's possible? Can this department work toward making that happen?
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HON. RONALD CHISHOLM: John Hanlon apparently was a consultant for the federal government to deal with this issue of owner/operator. I'm told that his work is about done. He was around the province, the different provinces, I guess, and did some consultation with the stakeholders. Our department had input into those meetings. I'm told now that the report has gone to the federal government, and when that's available we will have access to it and we will make it available to whomever. That's where it stands right now.
MR. THERIAULT: Could a letter go from the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture stating that the province would like to see this report sooner rather than later?
MR. CHISHOLM: Yes, we can make inquiries. We will write a letter and ask the status of that report and ask them as soon as it's available to make sure we get our hands on it. The whole concept of the owner/operator, as you know, as we said yesterday, we put forward different recommendations that the owner/operator policy be strengthened for the inshore fleets, and that's the position of the government and the position of our department, and every avenue that we have we will try to move that forward.
MR. THERIAULT: Thank you. I would like to touch on a bill that was passed, I believe last Fall, the Fisheries and Coastal Resources Act. The Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture put this bill forward, Bill No. 257, and amendments were made to this bill for independent fishermen to secure loans through the Nova Scotia Fisheries Loan Board for buying licences, not just the boat and gear, that's always been dealt with through the loan board.
So, anyway, this bill was amended and the amendment was accepted. As far as we're concerned, this province will accept the licence as collateral. Another bill was put through last night by the member for Shelburne, Bill No. 27, which is practically the same thing, but I believe it was brought up more for debate on this than anything, which is good. I'm glad he did bring it up again. We'll accept these licences; the province will accept these licences as collateral, but we believe until the federal government will hand these over to the province so the province could deal with them, if one was taken back when used as collateral, the federal government must somehow change its policy on how these licences are handed out and how they're dealt with once they are in the public hands. Like I say, I'm not sure what's in the Hanlon report - it's possible that there could be something in the Hanlon report regarding the licences and how they could be used as collateral. So I guess we'll just have to wait and see on that one.
I'm glad the province did accept this amendment on Bill No. 257, and I'm glad that Bill No. 27 was brought to the House again this summer for debate. Without the owner/operator - I guess it goes back to the owner/operator again - without this licence being used for collateral, I think it would certainly make the owner/operator hard to use, because that's the problem with the owner/operator, there was the problem that the fishermen never had a chance to borrow money to pay these big prices for the licence.
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I'm trying to get to a question here about that, has the department had any consultation with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans in Ottawa about the federal department letting the province use these licences as collateral?
[1:00 p.m.]
MR. CHISHOLM: That issue has been at the federal-provincial ministers' meetings, and it's an issue that has been brought up and discussed and worked on by different committees that are in place with the federal-provincial officials. It is ongoing. You're absolutely right, both those issues, the owner/operator and the loans for collateral, certainly go hand in hand. We are working with the federal government to make those changes. The bills that have gone through, basically they're not much good unless the federal government does what they have to do to change the policy on how they administer.
The bills are good in the sense that they sort of give us a hammer to work with the federal government and to try to get the changes that we're looking for - they do position us very well. We're ready to go if the changes are made federally. But until the federal government makes those changes, it's very difficult for us to really implement the changes that we have made with the bills that we have here. That's my understanding. But, hopefully, in a short period of time - and I know there are ongoing discussions with the federal government to make those changes - hopefully, very soon that will happen. All I can say is that we continue to work with the federal government and push those issues forward with them.
MR. THERIAULT: I may have missed this yesterday, I'm sorry if I did, but there has been talk of - and I believe it was in the provincial budget that we're going through right now - the downsizing of the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture to an office. I'm not sure whether this could be a good thing or a bad thing. I know that we seem to be doing a lot of downsizing of everything in this province, and we seem to be losing a lot of people to other parts of this country because of downsizing, but if we downsize the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture would that in some way or any way have an effect on the Nova Scotia Fisheries Loan Board?
MR. CHISHOLM: No, absolutely none. The Nova Scotia Fisheries Loan Board is legislated, that's enacted in legislation. So there's absolutely no change for the loan board. As far as what you're saying, the downsizing of the department, well I don't really see it that way. I see it as a major positive change for the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture because now we have one Minister responsible for Fisheries and Aquaculture in the Province of Nova Scotia. Prior to that, there was one minister for agriculture and fisheries and aquaculture. So that's a major change for the government. I think it speaks well to both the agricultural community and the fishing community. Our budgets have been split. So I think there are a lot of good things coming about because of the change in the departments. I think
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they're positive changes. I think it will be good for the fishing community, the industry, as well as the agricultural community by that split.
MR. THERIAULT: What would the changes be when you go from a department to an office? Do you have any idea what changes that makes and why?
MR. CHISHOLM: Basically just a name under the Public Service Act, that's all it is. We still have the sixth floor of the Bank of Montreal Building dedicated to our Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture. The seventh floor is dedicated to our Department of Agriculture, the same as it was before. The difference is now we have a minister responsible for each department, very little change - no change in staff. We still have the same amount of staff that we've had prior, in the Fisheries part - well, when it was both departments. We have an extra $500,000 in the budget for the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture.
So, as I also said yesterday, it's still a work in progress. There are still some things that maybe we're going to tweak here and there, but I can assure you it will be all for the benefit of the fishing industry in the Province of Nova Scotia.
MR. THERIAULT: So the financing for the department wouldn't go down, would it?
MR. CHISHOLM: No, there has been no change to the budget. We basically have the same budget in the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture that we had last year, only this year there is $500,000 more that we're going to use for the aquaculture part of it as well as the lobster science; $450,000 for the aquaculture, $50,000 for - staff tells me that we have committed to meet with the Critics for Agriculture to explain the budget there, and we're prepared to do the same thing for Fisheries. There are some shared marketing services in both departments that will continue. We will have service agreements associated with those initiatives.
MR. THERIAULT: So going from a department to an office, it's just a name?
MR. CHISHOLM: Basically it's just a name within the Public Service Act.
MR. THERIAULT: Why? Why change the name?
MR. CHISHOLM: It's just a decision that was made, that's just what it is. It's now, I like to call it - well, I do call it Nova Scotia Fisheries and Aquaculture. The same people work there in Fisheries, we have the same office space we had before - well, I guess we have a little more office space now that we have a full-time minister designated for the fishery.
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That is still a work in progress and, as I said, there will be a few things that will be making it better over the next short period of time.
MR. THERIAULT: So why don't we call all departments offices?
MR. CHISHOLM: That's an answer I don't have, Mr. Theriault.
MR. THERIAULT: So, who came up with the plan to change from department to office? There had to be a reason.
MR. CHISHOLM: It's my understanding that would have been determined by Treasury and Policy Board.
MR. THERIAULT: But we don't know the reason?
MR. CHISHOLM: I don't know, I think it may have something to do with the legislation that you have to have changes to some part of the Public Service Act in order to - I'm not sure, I shouldn't even be saying, but we can get that information and find out why it goes that way. But I believe it has something to do with the way it's legislated.
MR. THERIAULT: It just bothers me to know that it could be a step backward; it's maybe a way of stepping back out of the fishery in time. You know, I believe in my heart and in my soul that we can put a fishery back here in this province, bigger and better than it ever was before - I truly believe that and I'll probably go to my grave believing that. I don't know, but I'm not going to quit until I do find out.
I know we can, and I would hate to see this province do away with a department that has a fishery that is down and out and it's still one of the biggest fishing industries in all of Canada. I believe it has the capacity to be four or five times bigger than it is today, I truly believe that, and I think we're going to see the day that's going to happen before we're done.
MR. CHISHOLM: I don't think the fishery in the Province of Nova Scotia is down and out. We have one of the most vibrant fisheries - I think we're the largest exporter of seafood products in the country, worth well over $1 billion. I don't think we're down and out. I think you'll see the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture that we have in the Province of Nova Scotia will - I think right now we're better off than we were a couple of months ago where we had a Minister responsible for both Agriculture and Fisheries - I can tell you, I was there.
It wasn't for a very long time that I was there in both of those portfolios, but I can tell you it was probably the busiest, busiest time of my life. Probably in the four or five months I was there, I had maybe five days that I wasn't doing something for either Agriculture or Fisheries. Many nights I was over in the office until 10:00 or 11:00 o'clock
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at night, signing off on different things and dealing with different issues. It's very difficult for one person to dedicate their whole time to both of those. So I think it's a real positive move.
I know the Premier made the commitment during his leadership campaign that he was going to split the departments. He has done that, or we've done that as a government, and I think it's a very positive move. I think it's good for the fishing industry, I think it is good for the agriculture industry to have a minister responsible for both of those very important industries that we have in the province.
I know since we were sworn in as a new government, and when I was just responsible for fisheries alone, my whole time was dedicated to the fisheries, and it will continue to be dedicated to the fisheries. With the qualified, passionate staff we have over in Fisheries, I know it will only enhance what we're trying to do, trying to move the industry forward. We will continue to work hard to the best of our ability, and I'm sure you'll be quite pleased in the end.
MR. THERIAULT: I'm not saying the fisheries is down and out, I'm just saying it hasn't had the growth that it should have had. Our shell fishery is certainly keeping our billion dollars a year going, in our lobster, in our shrimp and our crab.
MR. CHISHOLM: Something over $400 million a year of that is the lobster fishery.
MR. THERIAULT: If it wasn't for the growth that we've had in the shell fishery and the stability there - like I said, I don't want to get into what I've said earlier but we've had 3 per cent growth in the past 15 years with a country not far away from us with 267 per cent growth. That's what I meant by down and out - we're not out, we're just down.
Anyway, we won't go back into that, where we were earlier. I believe we can make this fishery much, much better in this province. Like I said, it was the cornerstone of this province, it built this province, it built this country. We traded fish off to the world back in the 1940s and 1950s so they would buy wares from central Canada, we were giving our fish away then to other countries. When central Canada looks at us and says we're "have-nots", well, if we are, it's because we gave to them so they would buy their wares from central Canada many years ago. I don't know if they know that, but they should find out.
[1:15 p.m.]
I want to stay on the fishery, that's for sure. One of the things, we do have a $400 million lobster fishery in western and southwesten Nova Scotia, mostly down that way. Of course a lot of lobsters are trucked right from your area, Mr. Minister, and brought down in the Digby area and go across the boat. We used to take them across Yarmouth a lot more, before the Prince of Fundy left, but now we have one boat left down there.
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Has the Nova Scotia Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture been outspoken about this ferry boat? Is it concerned about what impact it could have on the fishing industry of this province?
MR. CHISHOLM: We certainly are aware of the impact that it will have on the fishing industry in the province if that ferry shuts down. I've had calls from some fishermen, some people in the industry regarding that issue. I've spoken to the Minister of Transportation and Public Works regarding that. I have also spoken to the Minister of Economic Development, who is the lead minister on that file.
So we're committed to working together to try to come up with whatever option we can to make sure that service from Saint John to Digby is maintained. Like I said, it is the file that is the responsibility of the Department of Economic Development, and we will work as closely as possible to make sure that service is maintained.
MR. THERIAULT: I would like to touch on fish processing for a few minutes. We know, especially since the downturn in the ground fishery many years ago, we've lost a lot of processing fish plants in the province - and I don't think it's done yet. I think a lot of the people who were in the processing lines earlier are now third and fourth crew mates aboard lobster boats, because lobster boats went from one and two people to three and four people to four and five people aboard lobster boats, so that took up a lot of the slack in the processing plants - especially down in the Digby and Yarmouth area where there are 960-odd licensed lobster boats, and taking a couple of people each aboard took up a lot of slack from the fish plants.
There are still fish plants having problems in this province and it's between the lack of fish and the lack of market, financially and whatnot. Has the department looked at anything to help these workers do anything different?
I know down in Digby a few years back - Joe Casey was the member down there then. Good 'ole Joe, he's still at it; Joe hasn't quit yet. Joe's 88 years old and he's still plugging away down there - I remember 10 or 15 years ago clamming went bad down there and the Department of Transportation and Public Works, probably, set up a program to put some of the clammers to work cutting alders in the ditches, and they worked all summer, most of them, or a lot of them did. We're having the same thing now; we're losing jobs in the processing sector. Down home, in the clam fishery, that's gone bad again. Does the department know of anything that could help these people out in the meantime? Whether they plan on staying in the province - the ones who want to stay in this province, is there some kind of program that this government could look at to help these people out? Is that possible?
MR. CHISHOLM: There is some economic development, I guess, and some HRDC programs that could be available to them in some of those cases - but you're absolutely right,
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you know, there are a lot of our fish plants throughout the whole province that are in very serious trouble. Throughout Cape Breton, I know in my own riding of Canso, the fish plant there is maybe operated - some people tell me they got 28 hours of work since last winter, which is not very much. They don't have enough for EI; they don't have enough for anything, so they are in dire straits. There are a lot of different things that are contributing to the problems in the processing sector: the global competition, particularly with China; lack of raw materials - a whole host of things that are contributing to the issues.
We will be conducting a detailed study as to the processing industry, which will describe the present state of the industry, the challenges it faces, and its potential opportunities, and there's another study that is taking place in Cape Breton which will focus on the groundfish. Nova Scotia Business Inc. is contributing to that study, and I believe ACOA is a part of that as well, federally.
There have been some ongoing discussions with the federal government, and there will be more discussions taking place on maybe some sort of worker adjustment programs to try to get us through the situation we're in now with fish plant workers. Those discussions are going on. Back in 1990, there was the TAGS program, I think they called it, that was implemented by the federal government and the province.
Right now we're in a major downturn in the processing sector - issues in Glace Bay, issues in Canso, issues in southwestern Nova with our fish plants there. They're there, and somehow we have to find ways to make things better, and how we do that is going to take a joint effort with the federal government, the provincial government, and possibly even the municipal governments. Anyway, we have to come up with some strategies to make it work.
MR. THERIAULT: I'd like to jump to another sector here, and that is aquaculture. Speaking of jobs, more jobs - we know aquaculture is a way to find fish, that's for sure, if we grow them. There are some people against aquaculture, against growing fish. In this province we've certainly seen - similar to the buffalo many years ago out West, I'm certain that fresh wild fish would probably be a lot tastier than a grown fish, and probably buffalo meat was better than growing steers or cows. We certainly learned that we couldn't all live on buffalo meat, so we had to start growing cattle and steer for protein. This province is starting to grow some fish, because we've watched our groundfish go down badly, just like we saw with the buffalo herds.
A lot of people are looking at aquaculture for a way of supplying protein to the world, and food to ourselves. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it. I love salmon, especially the maple smoked. That's my favourite.
MR.CHISHOLM: St. Mary's River Smokehouses are good at that.
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MR. THERIAULT: That's good stuff, and good for you. It's the healthiest food on this Earth and . . .
MR. CHISHOLM: I'll speak to my friends at St. Mary's River Smokehouses to see if I can get you some.
MR. THERIAULT: Okay. It's a good food; it's a really good food. Doctors are recommending it more and more every day. After a while, I don't see how we're going to supply the people, because people are turning away from processed food and are going to the more natural, especially fish.
Has aquaculture come ahead any - how far is it in its growth, and dollar-wise? Has it come ahead any the past three or four years, well, even since last year? Is there some growth there in the aquaculture business?
MR. CHISHOLM: We think there are some really good opportunities in aquaculture. That's the reason why we put $450,000 more, that's going to be expended this year in our budget, towards aquaculture. We would liked to have had more, and maybe next year we'll get more. We think that with this $450,000 there may be a possibility that we can access some federal funding, as well, to put into our aquaculture.
I'm told that in 2002 the aquaculture industry was worth about $50 million in the province. It dropped down to $24 million, and it has recovered now and is back up to $42 million, so there is room for improvement, and we have to find ways we can enhance aquaculture in the province and work with the industry to better develop it, and we will do that.
We will embark on that this year. We're in negotiation with the federal government on the aquaculture framework agreement which, hopefully, sometime soon, we'll have that in place, this Fall probably. Like we said, there are opportunities. We know there are opportunities in developing the aquaculture industry in the province. So we want to work with that industry, because it does create jobs, as well.
I know there is one mussel farm in my riding, well, there's more than one, but there's one that I'm most familiar with in the Country Harbour area, which is not very far from home. That started 10 years ago with maybe four or five employees, and there are probably 15 to 20 employees there right now, and down in Whitehead, up in Marie Joseph, and Ecum Secum on the Eastern Shore, and it is employing local people in those small coastal communities who otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity. So we see it as an industry that can grow, and we want to work with them to see that it does.
MR. THERIAULT: I don't know if you know this, but how many jobs does it create right now in the province?
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MR. CHISHOLM: We have the number. . .
MR. THERIAULT: A few thousand, or something?
MR. CHISHOLM: Yes, it would be in the thousands. We have that number, we'll get that number to you. We don't have it here right at hand. We indicated at our meeting this morning that we want to have a presentation to your caucus and the NDP caucus as to the aquaculture industry in the province, what it does, and our Aquaculture Environmental Monitoring Program. So staff will make sure that information is available to you when we do those presentations. I think we might have found it. (Interruption)
Okay, in 2005, the aquaculture production totalled $45 million, almost double the previous year's performance. The sector employs 1,000 full-time and seasonal workers. Nova Scotia is a Canadian leader in developing new species such as halibut, cod and abalone. We were committed to growing that sector in 2006-07 and, this year, as we've said, we've put $450,000 towards the aquaculture industry, or programs. Also, we are developing a new strategy and a new federal-provincial agreement that will hopefully move the sector forward.
[1:30 p.m.]
MR. THERIAULT: I would like to touch on something else here. It's really maybe not anything to do with the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture but it certainly has to do with fisheries, it's workers' compensation. Like I said earlier, I lobster fished all my life. I fished alone, and we fished two-handed, two people aboard the boat. We did that for a lot of years, and as the ground fishery went down, like I said earlier, we started taking more people aboard the boat. I know I did personally, I took an extra two people aboard. I wanted one more but I took two just to give him a job and paid him fairly well, as well as we could, but once we did that, once we went from the two people to the three people and four people, we got into workers' compensation, where it is mandatory when you have over three people, you have to pay into workers' compensation. To the small inshore fishery, that is a big bill. There are some boats paying as high as $8,000 or $9,000 a year to have that extra man or two aboard the boat. This year I know for a fact there are people being fired on board those boats because they cannot pay this bill anymore.
We figured it up - for the time you were on the water, workers' compensation costs you $20 an hour, $20 an hour for insurance while those people were on that boat. Once they stepped off that boat, that insurance wasn't any good at all. It was for just the time, the hours they were on that boat that they figured out it was pretty near to $20 an hour for insurance. That is pretty stiff insurance, I call it.
You can buy private insurance, and I have written letters to the Workers' Compensation Board about this, for fishermen, for fishing companies. It is high, and it is going higher, I think it is around $7 per $100 right now or whatever. I know this year it is
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going to cause some job losses in the fishing industry in western and southwestern Nova Scotia. I know that for a fact. It is happening right now, there are people who will not take a third man aboard, the lobstering is down a little bit, they are scared of it going further. They are saying you better start looking for a job now, before Fall. If we take you for a week or two and we see the lobstering is down again, we will fire you then, but we are saying to you now that you had better start looking for jobs right now because we are going back to the two people aboard the boats. With the gear they have now, you can go alone again and haul trawls out in 150 fathom water alone, you could do it with the equipment you have.
I am not saying anything against workers' compensation, I am saying that maybe there should be something different there for a fisherman other than having to pay $20 an hour for insurance versus when they can buy insurance from a private company for about $300 a year, covered 24 hours a day, seven days a week. It would not matter if they were in Bermuda on the beach, they are still covered; so $300 to $400 apiece versus $3,000 to $4,000 apiece for workers' compensation that covers you a few hours a day.
This has been quite a thorn in the side of inshore fishermen. I hear it every day. I have written letters steadily to the Workers' Compensation Board. They are fishing in the Bay of Fundy, especially, right beside New Brunswick boats. The New Brunswick boats can put up to 25 aboard their boat before they need workers' compensation in that province fishing the same species for the same market for the same price. That is quite a little issue with fishermen. Maybe it would be different if it was countrywide, I don't know, but we are seeing a problem that is going to create job loss in the lobster fishery this coming season. I know it is happening, I know that for a fact.
Is there something that the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture could look into there, maybe consult with the Workers' Compensation Board on behalf of the fishermen to see if there is some kind of compromise that could be worked out for the inshore fishermen from 44'11" and under, would that be possible?
MR. CHISHOLM: Well, we can certainly talk to the WCB, the Department of Environment and Labour, talk to the minister about it. I certainly know your concerns are legitimate. There are other sectors, other industries that have relayed those same concerns but you know, having said that, workers' protection is very important - we will talk to the minister and relay the concerns you've raised here today with that issue of insurance.
I'm told, too, that we regularly bring in people from WCB to the ministers' conference to speak to fishermen and the industry as to any concerns they may have. We can do that as well, we'll bring them in again.
MR. THERIAULT: That may be a good idea to bring that up at the ministers' meeting. With a bill like that to the fishermen trying to help some of the young fellows out down there, to give them a little job through the winter, they're looking at that bill on top of
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it also, and I think that's - with what looks like the downturn in the fishery too, a little - it's kind of scaring people off. People are spending as little as they can.
My brother is in the business of building lobster traps and he has seen his business dropping off. People are holding back on their dollars more in that business - if they have to lay someone off because of a big workers' compensation bill, that's what they're going to do. So I think it's something that needs to be addressed. It could profit this whole province by maybe something different - New Brunswick has this, they have a different set-up from workers' compensation.
Well, anyway, Mr. Minister, I think I'm pretty much out of questions. I could probably . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: The member's time has elapsed.
MR. THERIAULT: Has it elapsed?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, very much. I would ask the minister if he has a closing statement?
MR. CHISHOLM: I don't have much of a closing statement, Mr. Chairman, only to thank the members opposite, the members of the Official Opposition who asked questions, as well as the Liberal Party. I really appreciate the questions - it gives us all an opportunity to see what happens in the department and what direction we're taking, and working together.
I would also like to thank the staff I have here with me. They did a good job, as usual, and I thank them for their assistance.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E22 stand?
Resolution E22 stands.
We'll now call the estimates of the Department of Finance.
Resolution E7 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $18,517,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Finance, pursuant to the Estimate and the business plans of the Nova Scotia Government Fund Limited and the Nova Scotia Power Finance Corporation be approved.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to welcome the Minister of Finance, and I call on the minister to give his opening remarks.
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HON. MICHAEL BAKER: Mr. Chairman, first of all I'm pleased to be here today to speak to the estimates of the Department of Finance and, obviously, as well to other agencies and issues for which I am responsible. Today with me here I have, as far as the staff from the Department of Finance: Vicki Harnish, the deputy minister; Liz Coady, the assistant deputy minister; Byron Rafuse, the controller; Frank Dunn, an executive director; and Nancy McInnis-Leek, an executive director; and David Perry, Doug Murphy, Donna Boutilier, Steve MacDonald from the Gaming Corporation; Steve Snyder from the Halifax-Dartmouth Bridge Commission; Cathy Shaw, and Roy Spence.
The Department of Finance oversees the policy and administration of the government's finances. This leadership role is central in helping shape a better future for Nova Scotians. The work done by the Department of Finance helps us to continue to make strategic investments for tomorrow through sustainable fiscal planning, sound fiscal practices, a targeted debt management plan, and a solid economy, which have enabled us to be in a good financial position.
The Department of Finance has continually improved how we manage taxpayers' money, which has resulted in being able to produce five consecutive balanced budgets. The good work done by the department has also helped to bring us surpluses in the last few years, a fact that this government is very proud of - and that has been no easy feat, especially in light of the increasing costs of health and other social programs.
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Financial accountability is part and parcel of good fiscal management. The Finance Department continually makes improvements in processes and systems to better safeguard taxpayers' money and forecast and track government revenues and expenditures. Examples include improvement in control and risk management systems and enhanced financial reporting methods, and more is planned in this area.
Some of the other responsibilities of the department include borrowing money and managing the province's debt portfolio; preparing Nova Scotia's statistics and statistical reports; running the government payroll system; and government and operational accounting. Part of our job at the Department of Finance is to keep on top of all the factors that influence our economy and, ultimately, the quality of life for Nova Scotians. The Finance Department provides economic forecasts which will help us to understand happenings in our economy, as well as to understand the factors that can influence our economy in the future. The forecasts are one of the tools used to help us make the right choices and investments to benefit Nova Scotians.
Finance also sets tax policy. While this budget has introduced tax measures to benefit families and benefit businesses, we know we must continue to review our tax structure to ensure that it remains competitive and fair.
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Fiscal imbalance is a very important issue for Nova Scotia. The Department of Finance is responsible for communicating the province's position and strategy to ensure an equitable and adequate share of resources relative to federal-provincial funding arrangements. I am proud of the track record of the department - staff's wise management of the province's finances is helping to build a bright future, and I applaud their dedication to Nova Scotia and to Nova Scotians.
As you know, Mr. Chairman, I am also Minister of Aboriginal Affairs. Even though we have a short time, I would like to take a few minutes to talk about issues with respect to that responsibility. Aboriginal Affairs has been working with the Government of Canada and the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia to address outstanding issues of treaty rights and related matters. In that context, we have concluded initial discussions on the framework agreement, a road map for upcoming negotiations, and we anticipate a signing ceremony this Fall. We also are working on a process to consult with First Nations. Significant achievements are being made through the tripartite form, including collaborative efforts to address justice, health, economic, social, and cultural issues. This is a process that involves approximately 100 representatives from Mi'kmaq communities, the federal and provincial governments.
Last Fall our Office of Aboriginal Affairs undertook a film project to educate Nova Scotians about Mi'kmaq history and culture through the examination of a rich archeological find in the Mersey River. I am pleased to report that this film has met with widespread approval and will be used in our school system.
Mr. Chairman, I am also responsible for a number of other Acts. While these Acts are all important, my limited time today precludes me from addressing them in detail. However, I would be happy to respond to any questions regarding those Acts as well, and these Acts are: Part 1 of the Gaming Control Act - we continue to work hard in this area and the Gaming Strategy is proof of this; the next responsibility would be the Securities Act - securities is an area that is active on both the national and provincial fronts; the Insurance Act, where we continue to work towards improvements; the Elections Act; and not lastly, but nearly lastly, the Retail Business Uniform Closing Day Act, which I am sure you are well aware of and members will have heard of that responsibility; and the Utility and Review Board Act.
Mr. Chairman, I also would like to raise one issue which we heard about earlier today, and that is with respect to the Government of Canada's funding for education, part of last year's budget process federally. The federal government has set up a post-secondary education infrastructure trust designated to support investments to promote innovation and accessibility. Provisions in the FMA are there to make the legal arrangements for Nova Scotia to use that money from the federal trust fund - that is what amending the Provincial Finance Act will do.
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The money is for infrastructure and we have a moral obligation to use it for the purpose designated. Without the FMA measure we would not be able to spend the funds even in the way intended; however there is no way to amend the FMA to tie the trust fund money to tuition - of course we can appreciate that having funds to use, but having no way to spend them would be of no benefit to Nova Scotia. Infrastructure investments are certainly welcome and needed, too. We have been clear about our preference - to use the funds for tuition relief. That is why it was included in Bill No. 207, which was passed and later proclaimed last year. We would be glad to spend the funds in the way noted in the bill, however the federal government has targeted the funding - it must be used for specific purposes. These funds will help post-secondary institutions cut their infrastructure costs and we are hopeful that we will be able to have an effect on tuition through that method.
We still need to know more about the sorts of investments that are allowed and we intend to ask Ottawa to clarify the matters. For the benefit of members of the committee, I am pleased to table a copy of the trust agreement and the operating principles, together which constitute the binding provisions of the money that will be provided to Nova Scotia in October. We are providing them in sets, Mr. Chairman, I thought that was important because those principles I thought were very, very important and that members should have those to refer to.
I should also mention that from the Office of Aboriginal Affairs, the deputy minister will be over shortly - Judith Sullivan-Corney and other staff. And with that, I would be glad to entertain questions from members of the committee.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister, and we'll now turn it over to the NDP caucus.
The honourable member for Hants East.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Minister. My colleague, the member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage, I think it was his intention to be here, so I was asked to "rag the puck" and since I'm not a hockey player, I had to get a definition.
MR. BAKER: That's the first time I've ever heard the Opposition ask the minister to speak longer. I'm capable of doing that, by the way, as the honourable member would know.
MR. MACDONELL: Well, we're New Democrats and we live in hope that you'll actually say something that we'll agree with, so we're sure if we wait long enough that it will happen.
MR. BAKER: I'm sure anything is possible.
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MR. MACDONELL: I guess your last comments may be the place for me to start. When you talk about the federal agreement, my understanding is that this was part of an agreement that the New Democrats, federally, had gotten with the federal Liberals, for money to go to reduce tuition. So, you have kind of alluded, I guess, to the idea that by spending money on infrastructure, that that should help reduce tuition. I think that's a pretty long bow to draw - so, can you explain?
MR. BAKER: Well, what I'm indicating to the committee would be that, as we indicated before, our first preference would be that the money be directed to tuition. The trust agreement, which I filed, and the operating principles, together which constitute the terms on which Nova Scotia will receive the money - we haven't received the money yet, but we will receive the money - those two documents together, as I understand it, provide in simple terms that the money needs to go toward post-secondary capital kinds of expenditures. In fact I think the most important is in the operating principles section. It says: The Post-Secondary Education Infrastructure Trust is intended to support such short-term actions promoting innovation and accessibility, particularly investments that will enhance universities' and colleges' infrastructure and equipment used for academic purposes, therefore teaching, technology and training, as well as related institutional services.
It goes on to indicate, for example, the kind of things it can be used for, and possible areas of investment may include - and again you can see the nature of these - modernizing classrooms, laboratories, and research facilities; updating training equipment; developing and expanding interactive library technologies and facilities; enhancing distance-learning technologies - and here's the kicker, as they say - the Post-Secondary Educational Infrastructure Trust is not intended to support predominantly ancillary infrastructure or activities, or other ongoing expenditures, examples of which would include upgrades to parking lots and garages, maintenance of recreation, health or childcare facilities, or facilities that primarily accommodate administrative functions.
And this is what I call the ultimate kicker - the funding is also not intended to support rented or leased facilities or ongoing operation costs. And ongoing operation costs, as we all know, are really the great driver of tuition. This is a document prepared by the Government of Canada, as you can appreciate.
MR. MACDONELL: I guess I'm curious, in that agreement . . .
MR. BAKER: It's not an agreement. I want to make this quite clear. Nova Scotia was not asked to agree, nor did Nova Scotia agree. The federal government, with their own money, has created a trust agreement and operating principles with which we simply will be told, or are being told, to expend the money in terms of those conditions.
MR. MACDONELL: Thank you, I think you just answered three questions.
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MR. BAKER: There was no agreement, we were not asked to agree, nor did we agree.
MR. MACDONELL: Okay, great. Is there anything in that non-agreement that would tell you percentages that you would have to spend in any one of those particular areas you outlined? Could you spend 10 per cent on one and . . .
MR. BAKER: For example, as long as it's in a permitted area of infrastructure, we can, I think, target that money in particular ways provided it's not contrary to - and they indicated, as one example that we're not permitted to do, is university health facilities. That may very well be a very important need of universities. It may very well be an important need for students, but the agreement specifically alludes to that as being something we can't help. For example, they may need parking. We can also not expend it on parking. I just used those as examples to the member.
MR. MACDONELL: I was just wondering about the term accessibility. Did they give you a definition?
MR. BAKER: Promote access to post-secondary education for qualified Canadians. That is the principle. There's a series of principles: capacity and quality, enhance colleges' and universities' capacity and quality; mobility and portability, support the mobility and portability of learning credits and credentials; responsiveness, provide learners with the skills and knowledge needed to participate in the broader Canadian economy; and research and scholarship, enhance opportunities and supports for future and current researchers and innovators.
As I said before, there may be a problem, but the problem was in the original bill that was passed by Parliament, which provided significant discretion to the Government of Canada to further define the objectives of that money.
MR. MACDONELL: Have you had opportunity, or Finance Ministers across the country, have they raised any alarm bells on this, said they have a problem with it?
MR. BAKER: The federal government has not participated in any dialogue with Education or Finance Departments across the country, as far as we know. This is not a subject of which there's a dialogue. This is federal money which the federal government has directed to a particular purpose.
MR. MACDONELL: Well, that's the impression I'm getting.
MR. BAKER: That's the impression I was intending to leave.
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MR. MACDONELL: So, I guess my question would be, either you like it or you don't like it, and if you don't like it, have you pursued them to say that much?
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MR. BAKER: I think it's fair to say that one of the difficulties the Government of Canada, having done this, would have, is that they have created these trusts. They cannot alter the terms of their own trust, because one of the reasons that prevents this money from simply being flowed back on their deficit - because they have, somewhat, provisions to our own which requires the money, any surplus, to be expended on the deficit. This is an attempt by the Government of Canada to direct money that would otherwise go to the deficit to redirect that funding to other purposes.
Having created the trust, one of the conditions is that they can't have any more control over the money. So altering the terms of the trust would be, as I understand it, not possible, because otherwise, by virtue of doing that, they would take the money back into last year's and it would simply go on the debt. Having created the trust agreements, they have, in effect, limited their ability to alter those conditions, as I'm advised, at least.
MR. MACDONELL: I want to go to Aboriginal Affairs. You said a couple of things, I was trying to take notes, a framework agreement or a framework for agreement, I don't know if I . . .
MR. BAKER: A framework agreement.
MR. MACDONELL: What is it?
MR. BAKER: The framework agreement, in broad terms, is an agreement that sets out the parameters for future discussions and the kinds of ways and methods and the kinds of things that will be talked about, it's a road map in simple terms.
MR. MACDONELL: So are you developing that, or is it already created?
MR. BAKER: It is effectively created. The Province of Nova Scotia and the Government of Canada have both agreed to those principles in the framework agreement and, in point of fact, we are now awaiting ratification, for lack of a better word, by the Mi'kmaq. The Mi'kmaq governments are obviously involved in consultation with their own communities, and we're awaiting that.
MR. MACDONELL: The Tripartite Forum, what's that?
MR. BAKER: The Tripartite Forum is another consulted infrastructure that was established by an agreement between the Mi'kmaq, the Government of Nova Scotia and the
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Government of Canada. What it does is it allows certain issues, many social issues in particular, to be dealt with by the three different levels of government in a way that ensures that those issues get dealt with in an expeditious manner. Particularly after there were some modifications made by agreement with all the Parties it has been much more effective at actually moving forward with concrete decisions. There are seven subcommittees, for example, dealing with primarily social issues.
MR. MACDONELL: What's the speaking body or the name of it for the Mi'kmaq community? It's not the Confederation of Mainland Indians.
MR. BAKER: There are, in fact, two organizations that speak, but, really, there's almost a third developed, as well. They are technically the Confederation of Mainland Mi'kmaq, CMM, as it's referred to; the Union of Nova Scotia Indians, UNSI; and then the third one is the Nova Scotia chiefs organization. The Nova Scotia Chiefs organization, as its name implies, is composed of all the chiefs of all of the communities in Nova Scotia, and the two other organizations would be completely represented in that group, in that latter group. So it is a way to bridge the fact that they have two internal operating organizations, and different communities, for historical reasons, belong to one of those other two organizations. Primarily, the UNSI is composed of all of the Cape Breton bands and a number of the ones on the mainland.
MR. MACDONELL: I don't think it's all clear, I have the community of Indian Brook in my . . .
MR. BAKER: That would be a member of UNSI. Millbrook, not that far away from your community, would be a part of CMM.
MR. MACDONELL: Okay.
MR. BAKER: Indian Brook, just to use that example for the member, for historical reasons, is the member of the Union of Nova Scotia Indians, a very long established member of that community, and just down the road in Millbrook, they are a member of the CMM.
MR. MACDONELL: Both of those chiefs, Lawrence Paul and Alex MacDonald, would be part of . . .
MR. BAKER: Nova Scotia Chiefs organization, yes.
MR. MACDONELL: I think I know, in kind of broad strokes, where the federal government's responsibility stops, and I'm not entirely clear what the role - I always feel a bit that I can't easily represent the community because of the provincial and federal jurisdictions, so can you clearly define where we stop and they start?
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MR. BAKER: Well, there's been lots of constitutional cases based on that, but I think it's fair to say that the role of provincial governments proper has been expanding across the country with respect to First Nations. One of the historical contacts we know with the Indian Act in particular was very much an area where First Nations communities and people completely relied on services and programs that were of a federal nature. A number of things have happened, not just in Nova Scotia but in other parts of the country, which have changed that. I will give you some illustrations and probably one of them of course is education. Nova Scotia has an agreement with the Mi'kmaq which provides for what amounts to a Mi'kmaq School Board, education being a provincial responsibility, but we in fact have agreements that allow that educational system to meld with the provincial education system and make it work - that is an example.
It gets even more confusing because of course once First Nations people leave reserve, although the federal government still retains many responsibilities, we have an even broader range of responsibilities for those people off-reserve. But whether they are on- reserve or off, justice is another example. The Province of Nova Scotia, for example, provides I think it is 48 per cent of the funding for Aboriginal policing, whereas that is unique in fact to First Nations communities where otherwise they are paid for either municipally or federally, so that it is 52 per cent federal money for First Nations policing and 48 per cent provincial.
So, on the issue of policing, although delivered by the RCMP, not by constitutional necessity but in fact in Nova Scotia, the Province of Nova Scotia has a role to play in justice, as an example, and community economic development. Most of the discretionary money being spent by many of the communities in Nova Scotia is actually provincial money that is provided through gaming agreements and the like. We are providing, you know there is the gaming agreement, and of course the Sydney Casino money, both of which are significant sources of discretionary funding for economic development and community development that are flowing through to First Nations in Nova Scotia. I think that has been one of the most positive changes in the relationship between the provincial governments and the First Nations government.
I also should say that in the area of health care, part of the Kelowna agreements and leading up to the Kelowna agreements, we in Nova Scotia participated at length in fact in a very, very successful collaborative approach, so we worked with the provincial Department of Health, the Office of Aboriginal Affairs, other stakeholders, and the Mi'kmaq, in identifying what the Mi'kmaq's and Nova Scotia's priorities were, and they were the same. When we came to that meeting and we were talking to officials from the Government of Canada we had a united approach on what First Nations communities in Nova Scotia needed for health care, so that we could target those dollars in a way that everybody agreed was in the interest of Nova Scotia and of the First Nations people in Nova Scotia.
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MR. MACDONELL: My last point, I guess it will be - on- reserve, off-reserve, the role or responsibility, because you mentioned about when students leave reserve, but I am thinking in terms of community services - our provincial department has no role in those First Nations communities unless people leave the reserve, they can apply for benefits?
MR. BAKER: That is right, the band council would receive an appropriation from the Government of Canada which is designed to cover community services costs on- reserve; however, of course, the Government of Nova Scotia would provide assistance to people who live in other parts of Nova Scotia.
MR. MACDONELL: So a Native on a reserve would get funding through the band council?
MR. BAKER: The band council would provide that funding - so there is a demarcation based on where their source of funding is, yes.
MR. MACDONELL: I want to thank the minister and his staff. I will relinquish the rest of my time to my colleague, the member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage.
MR. KEVIN DEVEAUX: I want to go back to the tuition and the agreement, Bill No. 207 that was passed and the trust agreement.
I understand what the federal government is attempting to do, but I am looking at it here and there are a couple of issues. Obviously one is access, and the other is research and scholarships. So what prevents, for example, the Nova Scotia Government from taking the $28 million and putting it into reducing tuition for science and engineering students? That is access, that's research, that's scholarship money. You could give it as a grant if you wish. What prevents you from taking that money and putting it into those circumstances? I guess I'm asking why can't we be a little creative about this? Why can't we think outside the box?
If the federal government has given us parameters that include, as I see on the front page, research and scholarship, enhanced opportunities and supports for future and current researchers and innovators, to me that sounds like that money could go specifically to reducing, either through grant or direct, tuition for students who we can encourage to go into the sciences, the health sciences, possibly even the social sciences, if we want to be broad enough in it, and engineering?
MR. BAKER: The short answer is, if there is any avenue within which we can provide the money more consistently, consistent with our own legislation, the Provincial Finance Act, we will do so. Quite bluntly, this is a condition that we, up until recently, hadn't anticipated would be an issue, and once the trust agreement's final wording came out, and
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the operating principles as well, because the two things have to be right together, then the problem became obvious to us. That led it, of course, to be put into the Financial Measures Act that was tabled just after the budget, May 11th.
So the short version of that is, we intend to review this to obtain the maximum amount of flexibility within which we can expend the money in accordance with the Provincial Finance Act.
MR. DEVEAUX: So they have a trust fund that they have set up in order to avoid having to pay down the debt with the money and setting the money aside so it's basically out of reach.
MR. BAKER: It's out of reach.
MR. DEVEAUX: What is it they're asking you to sign, a memorandum of understanding or - is there anything they're asking you to agree to?
MR. BAKER: They're not asking us to sign anything.
MR. DEVEAUX: Other than the fact that the money has to be spent in accordance with the trust fund.
MR. BAKER: The trust agreement and the operating principles of the trust, yes.
MR. DEVEAUX: What type of review - and I know this is a new government, but traditionally - does the federal government do of how the money is spent once the money is given to the province?
MR. BAKER: My understanding is the federal Auditor General has reviewed the expenditure of money in the past to determine whether money given to anyone is expended for the purpose for which it's intended. We all know of a recent situation where issues arose about whether or not money was being expended for legitimate purposes, and this would be within the argument of - I assume the federal Auditor General will track this money, it's a fairly significant amount of money, to make sure that provincial governments are expending it within the terms they receive it.
MR. DEVEAUX: I'll give you an example. Probably about four or five years ago this government was audited. I believe it was the first time ever that a government was audited by the federal government. I'm not sure who did the auditing, whether it was the Canadian Heritage Department, but there was money allotted for French language services, and it wasn't spent where it was supposed to be spent. I don't know if it was the Department of Canadian Heritage, federally, or whether it was the Auditor General who did an audit and
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made some recommendations with regard to us not spending the money where we were supposed to spend it. Can you tell me what happened with that?
MR. BAKER: I'm sorry, I don't know what you're referring to.
MR. DEVEAUX: It was about four or five years ago, maybe six. I remember bringing it up in the House, that there was money, and part of the memorandum of understanding between, I don't know if it was Acadian Affairs or Education, it was money that was allotted for French language education in the province, it was not spent where it was supposed to be spent. There was an audit done, I believe by the Department of Canadian Heritage, at the time. I was wondering if your department was aware of the audit, or knew anything about what happened to the results?
MR. BAKER: Staff doesn't seem to be aware of it. We could certainly check into it and provide you with further information. I just can't provide you with any information now.
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MR. DEVEAUX: It leads to my point, which is, as much as we'd like to think that these are cast-in-stone rules, I think we all know that as one sovereign government to another sovereign government, that the federal government rarely, rarely comes in and starts doing significant auditing of where the money is actually spent. Would you agree with that?
MR. BAKER: Well, I'm not so sure I'll accept the principle that they don't audit to see what the provinces use the money for, because I think they do. I would accept that we're certainly a sovereign government. The question here, though, is if we receive the money, accept the money with specific conditions attached to the money, whether we like those conditions or not, to expend those monies contrary to the provisions of the agreement, I am not talking about if the provisions of the agreement provide for that, I'm all for it, as I've indicated before, but contrary to the provisions themselves, would be a breach of trust, not in the legal terms but in the moral sense of a breach of trust. I personally wouldn't be very comfortable with that kind of breach of trust, because I think it's fundamentally wrong to do so.
Having said that, if within the legal terms of the provisions, reading them fairly, and we can find a way to expend the money in accordance with the Provincial Finance Act, I've indicated quite clearly our preference to do so.
MR. DEVEAUX: As I, in a cursory manner, have just reviewed, but I will look into it in more detail. If this trust says that money can go to scholarships for purposes of research and innovation, would you agree that then is a possibility that some of this money, if not all of it, could go to provide support for students to reduce the amount of money they have to spend on tuition for purposes of sciences or engineering?
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MR. BAKER: I'm not going to give a yes or no to that other than to say that we're certainly prepared to look at all of those kinds of options to determine whether or not there are ways that we can legitimately provide the assistance that is consistent with the spirit of the Provincial Finance Act.
MR. DEVEAUX: It's a significant amount of money, $28 million. I was sort of working this out. If we took every science and engineering student, that would probably be approximately $2,000 or $3,000 a year that could go to them for purposes of reducing, either as a grant or some other form.
If you think outside the box you can start to think about medical students or nursing students who then would have an opportunity to receive certain amounts. Even with our agreement with regard to tuition, if we provided it as grants to Nova Scotian students, it would definitely provide a lot of opportunity for students who may not otherwise afford it to be able to receive that education in sciences.
MR. BAKER: Exactly. As I indicated earlier, we will be examining the trust to determine - because my understanding is, certainly the intention of the bill, the Financial Measures Act, is not to eliminate our duty to expend the money in accordance with the Provincial Finance Act, only if we have no other choice. Any suggestions will be reviewed seriously. If people make suggestions about how it might be consistent with the trust and the operating principles, we will review those suggestions to see if they conform with the two documents.
MR. DEVEAUX: Well, you can take my words as a suggestion, then.
MR. BAKER: Yes, frankly, I did already. If there are, upon review, by any member of the House, other suggestions, we will treat those very seriously, because, quite frankly, up until we saw the terms of the trust agreements, we had anticipated there would be a great deal more flexibility than there turned out to be.
MR. DEVEAUX: Let's talk about the Elections Act and campaign finance reform - to turn on a dime, and talk about another issue, but that's under your purview as well.
MR. BAKER: Yes, absolutely, it is.
MR. DEVEAUX: In the Budget Speech you mentioned campaign finance reform and electoral reform, I believe.
MR. BAKER: I think it was municipal electoral reform.
MR. DEVEAUX: Municipal electoral reform? What are you thinking about in terms of that?
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MR. BAKER: Well, talk about the two separately. Provincial election financing, there are many people who have concerns about the current way in which we in Nova Scotia finance political Parties. There are other models in Canada, both federal and provincial models in Canada are financing political Parties and the election process. We believe that the Election Commission should have a very serious, and I might add, relatively expeditious review of those options to determine whether or not there is a better model for financing elections.
We don't have a particular model. It would be unfair for the government to drive its own model because some might perceive that as being not as fair a level playing field, but we certainly do believe in the principles of modification to the present system, because there are concerns raised about the source of funds. I'm speaking particularly around large donations by an individual or corporation or unions, any organization, as being an issue. There are people who believe that creates a problem.
We also understand that in order to run democracy in Nova Scotia, as any other place in the world, in order to have a healthy democracy, political Parties, as the source of public ideas that people can vote on, need to be financed in a way that allows them not only to develop those ideas, but to communicate those ideas during an election campaign, because an idea that you can't communicate is, frankly, very little idea at all. So that is what we're thinking of, and . . .
MR. DEVEAUX: The Election Commission, I think, is made up of equal numbers of the three Parties?
MR. BAKER: There's a chairman selected by the government and equal members from Parties, so the composition on the committee today would be three government members, two New Democrats and two Liberals.
MR. DEVEAUX: It's a tangential point, but one that I guess came into my mind as you were speaking - the Green Party, as a recognized Party under the Elections Act, do they now have a right to have an appointed person?
MR. BAKER: I'd have to review that. They certainly haven't been, but they may be entitled . . .
MR. DEVEAUX: I'm just wondering because they are, under the Elections Act, a recognized Party. They aren't within the House obviously, but in the Elections Act . . .
MR. BAKER: There may be that there's certain minimum criteria they have to meet.
MR. DEVEAUX: So at this point the government is not ruling out the possibility of harmonizing our rules with the federal rules?
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MR. BAKER: No, or mirroring other provincial rules in this country, or a combination of the two.
MR. DEVEAUX: With regard to that, you were talking about the Election Commission, you said "relatively expeditiously", so you must have in your head a timeline - are you thinking about this time next year or what are you looking at as a possible time?
MR. BAKER: Certainly I think it would be inappropriate for me to make that comment without having a chance to speak to the Chief Electoral Officer about this, and the Election Commission, but suffice it to say that I would think it would be in the interest of Nova Scotians in a perfect world to have this in place before the next provincial election.
MR. DEVEAUX: Okay, which I say could be next year, so I mean we're all hopeful it . . .
MR. BAKER: Yes, you figure it out for yourself.
MR. DEVEAUX: Right. So within this mandate you would like to see some proposals . . .
MR. BAKER: Absolutely. I think it has been long overdue, I think that political Parties, federally and provincially, recognize that and, quite candidly, we have rules in Nova Scotia - I'm talking about how you finance candidates at the local level, of course we're all aware of those rules, but there is at least time to re-look at those rules to determine whether or not they are fair in light of today's situation, whether the funding levels are reasonable, all of those kinds of things.
MR. DEVEAUX: I actually think it's interesting, because obviously all of us as candidates deal with this - I've dealt with it on other levels as well - but it's interesting, because watching the federal system somewhat as afar, and I'm involved in the federal elections because of various reasons, but the system seems to be fairly reasonable and one in which seems to have addressed a lot of the issues that people have had. Now it also involves public funding which people are aware of and maybe it isn't shouted from the rooftops, but I forget what it is, $1.75 per vote, I can't remember, something like but - so would you be presenting to the Election Commission some alternatives, or would you say, look at the systems across Canada and recommend to us how you would like to see the system perform?
MR. BAKER: Certainly we can assist them, but I think it would be most appropriate for that group to, in an ideal world - because they have access to all three political Parties at least - for them to develop the ideas, at least to a large measure on their own. I'm not ruling out assisting them in some way, but I'm thinking that again, from the appearance of transparency, it might be problematic to do that. We have to be financially responsible in
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Nova Scotia, too. While democracy is arguably the most important cornerstone of our society in some ways, we have to be able to afford that in light of health care, education, community services, economic development, all of those other needs - you can always devise a system that is so expensive that it is maybe the ideal, but it's not something that Nova Scotians can afford - so we have to find a balance.
MR. DEVEAUX: My understanding is that the electoral commission works on a consensus basis where all the members have to agree before something can be brought forward. Is that something you would still adhere to depending on what comes out of this, or is it your desire to see this . . .
MR. BAKER: Well, I'll put it this way, consensus is ideal - I'm not sure if consensus is legally necessary.
MR. DEVEAUX: There is an understanding amongst the three Parties - you would agree that, as a custom, we accept consensus.
MR. BAKER: If, however, the process became gridlocked, then I'm not ruling out that, hopefully, everybody would be responsible.
MR. DEVEAUX: Sure, yes. You wouldn't have any complaints from me on it. I think it's long overdue. I'm speaking on my own behalf here, not on behalf of my caucus, but it is a long overdue process that really does require - it's funny, because talking to people, as I do from time to time, and from other countries, when you tell them that you can get elected here for as little an expenditure as $10,000 to $20,000, there's a tendency for them to be in shock about that, particularly the Americans, of course, because you can't get elected dogcatcher without spending $100,000; even in other parts of Europe, to some extent.
I guess one of things I think is good about this system, is that you don't have to be wealthy in order to run, or you don't have to, as I've heard from many people in the United States - you have congressmen and congresswomen who spend 70 per cent of every day fundraising. That's all they do is fundraise, and they don't have time to actually deal with the other work.
I'll say for the record, whatever we can do to ensure that the system remains viable but at the same time allows for individuals to seek office not based on how much they make but on their desire to make a difference, I think, is an important part of the process that I'd like to see maintained.
MR. BAKER: Well, just to agree with you, I've spoken to colleagues in the United States and have spoken to people who actually run for what - by the standards of our state level, if you want to use American terms - offices are, there are people who run for very local offices with limited responsibilities who spend tremendous amounts of money running for
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public office, at great frequency, I might add, in some States, and quite bluntly, I think our system has much to commend itself.
I think that as an ideal, democracy in Nova Scotia or anywhere else in Canada should permit people regardless of their economic circumstances or the stage of life they're in, whether they're beginning career, middle career or at the end of their career, not only the ability to run for public office but to be able to afford to hold public office, as well.
I think those are important principles of democracy in Nova Scotia that are well worth keeping. I think, frankly, one of the advantages of our 52-seat Assembly, not to wax too philosophical, but for a 52-seat Assembly, it's because your districts are not gigantic. If you halved the number, which I think would be a huge mistake, but if you halved the number of seats in the House, what would happen would be, of course, you would effectively double the size of the districts.
Well, the cost of doubling the size of the districts would mean that individual people, in order to run for public office, would need much larger amounts of money to be able to finance those election campaigns, because no longer is door-knocking and personal communications with electors as important as it is in our provincial system. It would become a system where, fundamentally, everything is mass communication, must be done through TV or the mass media and that, frankly, is a very expensive means of communicating with people.
[2:30 p.m.]
MR. DEVEAUX: I know we just went through an election, so one of the things I appreciate about our system, it's funny, because you hear it sometimes in the negative, people will actually say - because part of the way we work is that people call. I knock on doors, but someone calls on your behalf to follow up to see how they are voting, and they will say to you - often I get a message when I return at the end of the day, there will be three or four of them saying - why hasn't he called me himself, or why hasn't he been at my door? Of course, with 7,000 doors in 28 days, it's not always possible.
As I say, it comes out in the negative, basically they're telling my workers, go pound sand - if he wants my vote, he can come to my door himself, kind of attitude. The dilemma is that the ridings are getting larger, at least in the metro area. If you're in the ridings of Richmond or Argyle or Clare or Preston, you probably can accomplish the task of going to every door, as the chairman will probably know - not saying he did or did not go, that's between him and his campaign manager. But for the purposes of a riding like mine - and mine actually is technically fairly small. I believe the member for Halifax Clayton Park would probably have one of the larger ridings. I can only imagine, she must be 10,000 or 11,000 units in her riding. So it becomes a real challenge.
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It's a good thing they still expect us to show up. I think that's a good thing. It's the retail politics, as people say. It's that handshake, looking the person in the eye, listening to their problems. I think that's a good thing about Nova Scotia politics, how we wrestle with that at a time in which multimedia and mass media have begun to have so much - you know as well as I do, they have a lot more influence over how people run their campaigns. As much as we would like to think that coming to a door and talking to them is going to influence their vote, more than anything it's the advertising they hear that is part of it. So I guess one of the questions I have is do you see part of that as well - limitations on advertising, or limitations on some other things in the Elections Act, or changing our approach as part of the reform that you're talking about as well?
MR. BAKER: Well, I guess a number of comments, but first of all I think you're right, I think that the politics in Nova Scotia is still very much a retail sport, although I'm certainly not going to argue the effect of large media, whether it be print, radio or television - and I think we shouldn't minimize the Internet, because I spoke to people during the election campaign myself, although my campaigning was a bit foreshortened, but having said that, I spoke to people who said that they had looked at all the Party Web sites on the Internet and had formed their conclusions based on that.
There are a number of concepts that have been tried, maybe successfully, maybe unsuccessfully, such as blackout periods where certain kinds of media advertising are blacked out for a particular period of the campaign . . .
MR. DEVEAUX: I think the federal government uses that.
MR. BAKER: The federal government does that, yes, for television, for example, or radio. Those are options that you can look at, but I think there's something that the Election Commission has to look at - I'm always very careful to realize that restrictions on advertising need to be very thoughtfully pursued because otherwise, for example, you can get into a situation where the Parties can't advertise, but third parties can, and I think that would be an ironic twist if the people running for public office couldn't advertise, but others would. So that's why I think that they have to be very thoughtfully pursued.
I think that as long as our seats remain relatively constant in size, and I know the number of households, and I actually have about the same number of households in my riding as you would have in your riding, just under 7,000, and there are obviously seats in this province with far fewer numbers of households - I can't get to every door, but I certainly do my best to try to get to as many as possible. It's always interesting when you've been there, people will tell you if anyone else has been there or, quite frankly, if you're the only one who has been there, and I think it's good that at least they're making some judgment on candidates based upon other factors other than mass mail-outs.
MR. DEVEAUX: Their ability to knock on a door evidently, but . . .
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MR. BAKER: Well, ability to knock on a door and at least present themselves reasonably well at that door.
MR. DEVEAUX: Yes, exactly. Not disheveled, or reasonably not disheveled.
Fixed election dates, is that something that your Party is considering at all?
MR. BAKER: We would like one four years from now; we don't want any exceptions to that.
MR. DEVEAUX: Yes.
MR. BAKER: We're looking for unanimous support for that, and we can probably get that bill introduced shortly. I think that the irony of fixed election dates has been proven by the fact that minority government exists . . .
MR. DEVEAUX: Right.
MR. BAKER: . . . and, in point of fact, what may have been a parliamentary fiction at one point, but has become a real reality in Nova Scotia, and federally, is that there are factors that lead to election dates, meaning the composition of the House, that transcend fixed election dates.
The other problem is I'm not sure Nova Scotians want a year-long election campaign, and the experience in both, not only in Canada but the United States, has been that fixed election dates do not create better government. What they do is create longer election campaigns which I could argue would create worse government because during the election period it's unreasonable to expect political Parties to co-operate, because at that point they're selling their ideas, as they should, to Nova Scotians or Canadians.
I'm a person who remains to be convinced about the efficacy of fixed election dates. It sounds like a great idea, but how do you stop people from effectively campaigning when they know the election date up to a year before the election? I don't know, and anybody who watches the American political system will know that in many places, particularly incumbents start campaigning a year before an election, which means that in the House of Representatives, or in a State Legislature where they have two- year terms, you have members who serve one year, after which they're in election campaign running mode with campaign teams and campaign offices, and the duty of governing becomes secondary during that period of time.
MR. DEVEAUX: A different system in that way, because if you sit as an Assembly member and you aren't part of the Cabinet, so I mean it's slightly different, but I do agree that the system itself - I worry. My biggest worry as well is that you end up having extended
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campaigns, which then means you have more costs, which then means it's prohibitive to certain people so, ergo, fixed election dates will mean more costly campaigns, longer campaigns, and therefore certain people are excluded from being able to run.
A couple of other questions around this because they are ancillary points - one I think is an issue that really hasn't been given full due and discussion, which is how the federal government will be dealing with the Senate because, in theory, they've been talking about the fact that they would recognize elected - because we now have two Senate seats that are open, I believe Mr. Buchanan's and Mr. Forrestall's - if Nova Scotia was to consider electing them, I believe the Prime Minister has said that he would accept those recommendations, did he not?
MR. BAKER: I'm not sure. I know that to my knowledge he hasn't appointed anybody who has been "elected".
MR. DEVEAUX: Well, other than Mr. Fortier and . . .
MR. BAKER: He hasn't appointed anybody who has been elected.
MR. DEVEAUX: Oh, hasn't appointed anyone who has been elected - right, I see what you mean. But I don't think he has appointed anyone either, since Mr. Fortier was appointed. Have you gotten any indication from the federal government as to where they stand on this issue?
MR. BAKER: No, not to my knowledge; that wouldn't be directly my knowledge. But one of the big problems that poses for us is because we have 10 Senate seats, which is a good thing for Nova Scotia, the difficulty we have, and it's a significant difficulty, is conducting general elections for the Province of Nova Scotia at random, with the exception of the Province of Quebec, which does have senatorial districts, we in fact have every one of our senators effectively appointed at large.
MR. DEVEAUX: There used to be boundaries.
MR. BAKER: Well, there used to be areas that would be represented by certain senators, but they never had districts as such, and the past habit of some federal governments of appointing people who don't live in Nova Scotia even to the Senate meant that it was - and I can think of two examples of that . . .
MR. DEVEAUX: I only know of one offhand, but . . .
MR. BAKER: . . . illustration of that, so not only did they not reside in the province, they didn't even reside in . . .
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MR. DEVEAUX: I believe there was one appointed who lives in Dartmouth but represents what she calls "Sydney", I think. So there is some boundary concept. I agree, it is a bit wonky.
MR. BAKER: But anyway, to your point, just to finish this. It makes it very difficult to conduct an election at a random time, completely not even depending of course on terms, but based upon, for example, when someone may pass away, and the cost of running an election in Nova Scotia is very high. You're talking about a provincial-wide election . . .
MR. DEVEAUX: Yes, you are.
MR. BAKER: . . . and it becomes very difficult to see how such an election system could work very well - and that is saying I, personally speaking, not for the government but for myself, I have no problem with the idea, the concept of elected Senators. I'm just saying I see many problems in the actual process of election.
MR. DEVEAUX: The Prime Minister has mused from time to time since he was elected in January that he would like to see constitutional reform, which I don't believe is your jurisdiction at this point, right?
MR. BAKER: Pardon?
MR. DEVEAUX: Constitutional reform would be Intergovernmental Affairs, you're not . . .
MR. BAKER: That's right, it is Intergovernmental Affairs.
MR. DEVEAUX: You're not into Intergovernmental Affairs?
MR. BAKER: No, I'm not.
MR. DEVEAUX: Okay. But can you tell me, how has the federal government approached the provincial government with regard to constitutional reform that would involve electing Senators?
MR. BAKER: I have heard nothing about electing Senators, and I would have heard it at least from the point of view of elections had there been. Now there may be constitutional discussions ongoing about the concept, but they certainly haven't gotten down to the level of the mechanism of elections, which is what I would be responsible for.
MR. DEVEAUX: Okay. A couple of questions around Aboriginal Affairs that just came up, listening to my colleague, the member for Hants East. People probably don't know, but I actually have a reserve in my riding as well.
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MR. BAKER: I do know that actually.
MR. DEVEAUX: I have a satellite of Millbrook, which is functioning very well and actually a great example, because they signed a contract for the replacement of the Sea King, to service the computers, and it's going to be built in the area. So it's actually very good - but one of the things that comes up from time to time is accountability. I know most of it's federal money they receive, but where they do receive provincial money, what type of guarantees of accountability are there - what strings are attached with regard to accountability for the money that's given to the reserves?
MR. BAKER: The largest, the vast amount of that money is under the gaming agreements, of course, which provide for that.
MR. DEVEAUX: That's just a flow of funds, isn't it?
MR. BAKER: Well, no, it's more than that because one of the things that we did, we modernized our gaming agreements to provide that they have a duty to provide to the province - they're for community development and economic development purposes, so the purposes are limited and there are, in fact, audited financial statements that are prepared by chartered accountants that the Province of Nova Scotia receives pursuant to those agreements which indicate the purpose to which those funds were paid, and it provides accountability obviously to us, but also to the First Nations community themselves who can then judge whether or not the money was expended properly. We have found that that particular change, which was instituted quite a number of years ago now, has made for I think much improved transparency with respect to the money.
MR. DEVEAUX: So how much money is transferred to them through the gaming?
MR. BAKER: It's approximately $40 million worth of casino profit.
MR. DEVEAUX: And is that based on the number of VLTs that they have?
MR. BAKER: It's based upon the VLTs of course, and then the Sydney Casino money is based upon a formula.
MR. DEVEAUX: Okay, and does every reserve have some VLTs?
MR. BAKER: No.
MR. DEVEAUX: How many don't?
MR. BAKER: Two.
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MR. DEVEAUX: And which two are those?
MR. BAKER: Bear River, I believe is one, and I can't remember the other.
MR. DEVEAUX: You say Bear River?
MR. BAKER: Bear River.
MR. DEVEAUX: And you don't know the other one, okay. So some have more presumably - I assume Millbrook has a fair number compared to others, Membertou, the larger ones I guess?
MR. BAKER: Millbrook has a fair number, Membertou - Eskasoni would have, but they reduced the number.
MR. DEVEAUX: Concerning Millbrook - it has a lot of them in my riding, they have three buildings and there probably must be 60, 70, or 80 of them there. So have we ever audited to make sure the money is being spent according to what they said it would be spent on?
MR. BAKER: My understanding is the audited financial statements we get, we assume that they . . .
MR. DEVEAUX: So a chartered . . .
MR. BAKER: A chartered accountant, an independent chartered accountant provides those audited financial statements.
MR. DEVEAUX: Your department, they haven't had any problems with any of these?
MR. BAKER: No. There were some issues early on when we came to office about how those monies were being expended, and we introduced the change of requiring audited financial statements and it seems to have worked well.
[2:45 p.m.]
MR. DEVEAUX: And the funding of Aboriginal police, there was an issue in Eskasoni, I believe, a couple of years ago around - didn't it . . .
MR. BAKER: The private police force.
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MR. DEVEAUX: But wasn't there originally a police force there and didn't it somehow collapse or it fell apart?
MR. BAKER: Yes, the Unamaki Tribal Police Force which had five communities on Cape Breton Island participating, and based upon a decision of the communities themselves that force was dissolved and replaced by the RCMP. There were governance issues that made that a desirable thing.
MR. DEVEAUX: I'm going to go on to a separate issue, education. I see where British Columbia just signed an agreement with its - is it one reserve or is it one band council, or is it a number of band councils, with regard to education and allowing more autonomy?
MR. BAKER: I think 13 to 15 band councils.
MR. DEVEAUX: Is that all of them in British Columbia?
MR. BAKER: No.
MR. DEVEAUX: I wasn't sure how many there were.
MR. BAKER: There are many, many more.
MR. DEVEAUX: Is this something that's being considered here, a similar agreement?
MR. BAKER: We actually have an agreement now with band governments in Nova Scotia, which any band council is welcome to join. It's a model. In fact the Mi'kmaq Education Act provides for that, and our understanding is that their legislation is very similar to the legislation that already existed in Nova Scotia.
MR. DEVEAUX: Oh, because they made it sound like there was a lot more autonomy in the process.
MR. BAKER: Well, all I can indicate is at one point I was speaking to a former federal Minister of Indian Affairs, and he indicated to me that Nova Scotia had one of the best arrangements for Aboriginal education in the country.
MR. DEVEAUX: How long ago did we get that Act and those agreements?
MR. BAKER: It's quite a number of years.
MR. DEVEAUX: Are they up for renewal at any point soon?
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MR. BAKER: It was signed in 1997 and will be up for renewal in three years.
MR. DEVEAUX: So it's a 12-year agreement.
MR. BAKER: Yes.
MR. DEVEAUX: The agreement on gaming with the reserves, when is that up?
MR. BAKER: They are six-year agreements, I believe. There are six-year agreements with a number of communities, and there are options for renewal.
MR. DEVEAUX: Each community has a separate agreement?
MR. BAKER: Yes, each community has a separate agreement.
MR. DEVEAUX: Why did I think that at some point there was a 12-year agreement?
MR. BAKER: There's an ability of renewal for a couple of communities, an extra six years.
MR. DEVEAUX: By agreement of both parties?
MR. BAKER: Yes.
MR. DEVEAUX: Sunday shopping. Just a few questions before my time is up - I have four or five minutes left, I believe.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Three minutes.
MR. DEVEAUX: What did you understand came from that plebiscite? What was your understanding when the plebiscite was defeated, that people were voting for?
MR. BAKER: My understanding, and I believe what Nova Scotians understood, was that they were voting for a status quo option, meaning not the elimination because we have Sunday shopping in Nova Scotia now. It's not complete, unlimited Sunday shopping, but we have Sunday shopping in Nova Scotia now, and have had Sunday shopping in Nova Scotia, practically speaking, for generations now. What we don't have is unlimited Sunday shopping.
My understanding is Nova Scotians were being asked to vote for a choice between the existing system and a system whereby - and the terms of the legislation were quite explicit - the number of hours would be not completely unregulated but would be much less regulated than the existing system. So, for example, the hours - people who talk about unregulated Sunday shopping are many times talking about no limitation on hours at all, and
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that means 24-hour Sunday shopping being possible. The bill did not propose that kind of Sunday shopping.
MR. DEVEAUX: So you would agree, though, that at the time of the vote there was one retailer who was opening grocery stores under the current rules - let's call a spade a spade, it's Pete's Frootique - would you agree that at the time of the vote, when people voted for the status quo, that included Pete's Frootique and how they were able to fit within the law?
MR. BAKER: I think people were aware of Pete's Frootique, certainly people I spoke to were aware, in many cases, of Pete's Frootique, but they looked at Pete's Frootique as being a limited exception, an anomaly, call it what you will. They were not anticipating that every large grocer in Nova Scotia would be open if they voted no. I believe that Nova Scotians did not expect when they voted no - and they did vote no by a majority - that they would be in a situation where every large grocery retail in Nova Scotia would be open 24 hours a day which is even, to my point, beyond the hour of regulation, which was anticipated in the legislation, potentially - I'm saying legally at least - and they did not anticipate that a no vote would have that outcome.
MR. DEVEAUX: Would you agree that if, today, Pete's Frootique wanted to open for 24 hours on Sunday, there's nothing stopping that under the current rules?
MR. BAKER: I didn't understand the question.
MR. DEVEAUX: If Pete's Frootique wanted to open at 12:00 a.m. on a Sunday and close at 11:59 p.m. Sunday night - because they fall under the current rules, they're allowed to open - would you agree that there's nothing stopping them from doing that?
MR. BAKER: I would agree with that. I think that's the legal effect of that. No different than a convenience store can operate 24 hours, or a canteen can operate 24 hours.
MR. DEVEAUX: So would you agree then that if that happened, would you say that's something your government would want to fix, because that's not what people were voting for?
MR. BAKER: Well, I'm not going to get into the area of speculation. I know of no plans that would lead me to believe that they're going to do that.
MR. DEVEAUX: If a retailer who met the criteria of the current Act decided to open for 24 hours on Sundays, your government wouldn't have a problem with that?
MR. BAKER: Well, no, I didn't say that. I said there are retailers today that are open 24 hours. Small grocery stores, for example, and if they choose to be open for 24 hours, that
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is part of the status quo, if you want to call it that, in Nova Scotia, and there are many retailers, certainly small retailers, that are open extremely extended hours and there may be Green Gables that are open, for example, 24 hours, Needs . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The time for questioning for the NDP has expired. I will now recognize the Liberals.
The honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park.
MS. DIANA WHALEN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and welcome. I'm happy to have you here with your staff and I actually have questions that relate to Finance for you, just to change gears again. That's all. I was very interested in the other subjects.
MR. BAKER: That's one thing I know. I have a variety of interests, including Finance. So I have a fairly broad range of responsibilities.
MS. WHALEN: That's right. Like many members of the Legislature, you have to wear a lot of different hats.
MR. BAKER: Yes, that's right. Like I said before, I think in this room, only one head under all those hats.
MS. WHALEN: Yes, exactly. Well, I'm enjoying returning to the Finance area. I've just been returned as the Finance Critic, so I've had to brush up on this as well, but it's interesting to be back here and to be reviewing the department once more.
I wanted to actually go through the estimates and talk about certain line items just to begin with, so I have a few that I wanted to pick out, as we begin along. On the communications, right off the bat, which is on Page 9.2, the communications cost has gone up by about 43 per cent, this year, from the forecasted amount. Mind you, last year's estimate was higher as well, but the forecasted amount is $266,000 and you're looking at $373,000 for communications in the department?
MR. BAKER: We're looking. What page of the book is that, do you know?
MS. WHALEN: The Estimates Book, Page 9.2. So really my question is, what communications are you doing and does that cover the whole department and how many people? How much communications does Finance need? It's under Senior Management.
MR. BAKER: We have two communications officers. That would include both printing of budgets, for example, the budget highlights, budget communication. All of those things would fall under that rubric.
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MS. WHALEN: My question would be, why were you underspent last year then? From what you have forecast here for 2005-06, it's an increase of 43 per cent. So what would account for that?
MR. BAKER: It's very simple. The budget material last year wasn't tabled until after March 31st, so there was a period where there was - it was underspent last year.
MS. WHALEN: Would that additional be going into this year because you were late with the budget?
MR. BAKER: Yes, that's right, because you see if the budget were tabled before March 31st, then obviously the communication costs would be booked in the year they were expended. What happened, of course, is that you had the last fiscal year in which no budget was actually tabled.
MS. WHALEN: Yes, great, so some savings there. Now I just wondered what would make it go up and whether you had a sudden need for a lot more communication advice. So that's good. Thank you.
MR. BAKER: We probably do, but no, that wasn't the reason for it.
MS. WHALEN: Below that there are a few others that have changed remarkably in the year, under the Office of the Assistant Deputy Minister, the Policy and Planning Area, there's an increase there of double, really, the amount that was on for last year. You had estimated $302,000 last year, and this year you're budgeting $687,000. So it's more than twice the amount under Policy and Planning. So I'm wondering if you're tackling some new initiatives, hiring some new people, or what can we expect from that area?
MR. BAKER: That's fine. It's due to three newly created positions and three positions created by transfer of vacant positions from other divisions. So there may be internal savings that were obtained elsewhere. So that can also make the expenditure look higher.
MS. WHALEN: Can I ask, are there some special initiatives that are going on through Policy and Planning that would require the extra resources?
MR. BAKER: The six positions are: project manager, a Secretary III, a FOIPOP manager, a STAR/STOR administrator, a policy analyst and an HR adviser.
MS. WHALEN: Okay, that explains what the actual positions are, but is there an initiative they are associated with?
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MR. BAKER: There are a number of different - for example, two of them are dedicated to STAR/STOR. That is the records management system to keep adequate record management. I think that's one of the issues the Auditor General has spoken to in the past. We didn't have those positions then and we felt it was important to have those positions. One of the positions, of course, was also budget coordination, because that's very important, obviously; the policy analyst and HR adviser, that particular person is to develop succession planning.
We have a number of vacancies within the Department of Finance, making sure that we are able to recruit people and recruit the right people so that we can provide the quality of service that Nova Scotians expect. (Interruption) Yes, one position as well was with respect to coordination with third party entities because, for example, we have health boards, education boards, Crown Corporations, a whole host of external entities which are consolidated, and we need to make sure we have coordination so there are no surprises, for example.
MS. WHALEN: Exactly. No, I appreciate the explanation, because I'm certain that you wouldn't be hiring new people without having clearly identified their need.
MR. BAKER: There are, in fact - these were, I guess, deficiencies that were noted in the staffing structure of the department and there was an attempt made to enhance the departmental managing capacity by creating those positions.
MS. WHALEN: I appreciate that, and it's also a window for us into the initiatives of the department, if we see an increase in staffing?
MR. BAKER: Because you see where the staff is, that's where the initiatives . . .
MS. WHALEN: Exactly, and what is it signaling in terms of priorities?
On the same line, the next item there is the Administrative Services and they have gone up dramatically as well, and it looks as though you didn't have so many staff last year because your forecast came in under, but you had estimated last year $47,000. You're up to $106,000 this year, so are they supporting the same initiatives?
MR. BAKER: I'm sorry, I was getting an answer at the same time you were still talking.
[3:00 p.m.]
MS. WHALEN: It's the same question, one line down, Administrative Services. Again, it's doubled from your estimate last year.
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MR. BAKER: My understanding is that has to do with the Pension Agency. We have created a separate Pension Agency. We won't be getting a recoverable for rent and those kinds of costs around that and that will make a difference in that area. The Pension Agency was created to deal with not only the government pension plan, but also the teachers' pension plan. They will be moving to their own space because, quite frankly, we are under-spaced.
MS. WHALEN: If I understand you correctly then, because of the formation of the agency, you now have to absorb some of the costs that were previously cost shared.
MR. BAKER: That's it exactly, that would be picked up by that agency. The agency has to find their own space, so they took the budget money with them and so we were left picking up the cost.
MS. WHALEN: Okay, so that has an impact there. I did actually have some questions around the formation of that new agency. Maybe we'll just go to that for a change of pace. In that first page, under your departmental initiatives, you certainly mention as a major thing that you're changing the investments in Pension Services into a separate agency. I wondered if you could give me some background as to how that will be structured, what its relationship will be to the department, how much control you have.
MR. BAKER: First of all, it's a special operating agency created under the Public Service Act. The charter is being developed, but the reason it's not complete, quite frankly, is because we're consulting with the Nova Scotia Teachers' Union. As you would know, they're a joint management with the Nova Scotia Teachers' Union with the governance of that plan.
Obviously, we would hope that agency would continue to provide pension services to not only the government pension plan and other major pension plans, but as well, to the Nova Scotia Teachers' Union plan. That's why we're consulting over the charter for that organization to make sure everyone's comfortable with the structure.
MS. WHALEN: Is it uncertain whether the NSTU's pension will stay with this pension agency?
MR. BAKER: I guess it's not certain at this point. We're certainly supportive of that and we're hoping. Obviously we have a partner, and we have to make sure the partner's comfortable.
MS. WHALEN: So this will take a little bit of time. Do you have any idea of the time line?
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MR. BAKER: I know they're having lots of meetings. Staff were telling me about the fact that they're having lots of meetings on the subject, so presumably it's a very active matter.
MS. WHALEN: Do you have somebody designated yet to head up this new agency?
MR. BAKER: We have John Traves, a lawyer who's provided advice to the Department of Finance for many years. He's the acting CEO.
MS. WHALEN: Is it a full-time position?
MR. BAKER: It's a full-time position, yes.
MS. WHALEN: Did you have a competition for that position?
MR. BAKER: No, because it's internal to government. This Mr. Traves, being a government lawyer and employee, was simply a civil servant appointed to the position. There will be for the full-time position.
MS. WHALEN: That's what I want to know is whether you will have a competition for that position.
MR. BAKER: Yes, yes. Absolutely. The acting position is not being competed for, because it's by that definition, it's acting. We will be having a competition.
MS. WHALEN: What will be the size of the resources this agency will be responsible for, roughly?
MR. BAKER: There's $7 billion worth of assets and approximately 50,000 current and past members of the plans. So, it's a very significant number of amount of assets and a very significant amount of people and Nova Scotians, who are in receipt or potentially in receipt of pensions.
MS. WHALEN: Would you say the number of pension members again?
MR. BAKER: There's 50,000.
MS. WHALEN: Okay, thank you, I just missed that. At the moment, because it hasn't been fully constituted, are there any staff working in that now? You said you're still negotiating on the charter for it and so on, is there any structure to it yet? Does it exist?
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MR. BAKER: All of the former pension investment division of the Department of Finance have been transferred into that agency. That's staff who, historically, provided those kinds of services to the government have been transferred into that special operating agency.
MS. WHALEN: Okay. Can I clarify - when you call it a special operating agency, what's its relationship to the Department of Finance? Is it an arm's-length?
MR. BAKER: Yes, special operating agencies are no longer part of the department. The reason for that obviously has to do with the fact that they're potentially managing assets which are joint trusteeship with the Nova Scotia Teachers' Union.
MS. WHALEN: Because of that new arrangement with the Nova Scotia Teachers' Union, is that what precipitated this structural change?
MR. BAKER: That was certainly one of the major factors, yes.
MS. WHALEN: Would you have done it if the arrangement had not changed with the Teachers' Union?
MR. BAKER: Well, there's certainly an evolving relationship with the Nova Scotia Government Employees Union and CUPE as well with respect to other pension plans. There's a certain growing move towards co-management and as that co-management, co-governance model proceeds, it is increasingly important that people be comfortable, that the fund managers are not just the employees of one party to that co-management.
MS. WHALEN: I'm going back to the person who's going to be the CEO of this position. Have you determined what a salary range would be for that position?
MR. BAKER: No, they would develop an HR profile for that position and that would be then approved.
By the way, and I think it's important to realize, in this particular sector of expertise to get quality people, you earn very, very significant ranges for income. Particularly, we have a number of people who work in our investment division, which is still part of the department, and we need to pay those people very competitive wages because the private sector will otherwise ensure that you have nobody working for you because these people have a great deal of skills and those skills are in very large demand.
MS. WHALEN: I had determined already, I mean, the person is responsible for $7 billion in assets, so it's obviously a highly responsible position and again, even small mistakes or changes in rates and whatnot, can make a huge difference in terms of the bottom line. So, I don't disagree with you at all about the need for quality people and to pay them properly. I am actually comparing it a little bit to the other agency called Conserve Nova
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Scotia, which has yet to be constituted, does not yet have a charter, has no employees. We have probably a very small amount of assets compared to what we're talking about here, and I was looking for a parallel in terms of the CEO, of this agency.
As the Minister of Finance, of course, you're responsible for all spending throughout government and I would just question how we could have no competition and a person appointed to a position, which again, is a Civil Service position. I'm sure it's a similar, special operating agency of some sort, to have an arm's-length relationship with the Department of Environment and Labour. Is there a parallel that you could see there, or could you comment on it, please?
MR. BAKER: I'm not responsible for Conserve Nova Scotia, so it would be inappropriate for me to comment.
MS. WHALEN: Okay, I will leave it to you to discuss it at the Cabinet Table, then. I think that the agency you're talking about here for pensions is obviously very important. It's just the idea of having a fiduciary duty to the province, about making sure that we have the best qualified people in every position, and I think that you would share that concern with me as well.
There are so many questions in this department. I'd like to go actually, to your overall spending. If I could just go to the bottom line for the whole department, and that was estimated for the year at - I'm looking at 2006-07. It has gone up considerably. It's 16 per cent above the forecast amount and a 10 per cent increase over the estimate that was provided for last year. So I'm wondering if you could just speak about the overall increase in spending in the Department of Finance, and what might precipitate a 10 per cent increase?
MR. BAKER: Well, there's a number of things. First of all, the addition of various new positions across the department, including transfers from Agriculture and wage pressures, ACOA, step increments and reclassifications. That was part of it, and in rough terms would be just under $800,000 worth of the cost driver. The next cost driver would be initial funding in the CIS unit. That was really the extension of the contract with SAP. Increased maintenance and staff training costs. The SAP program is particularly relevant to the school boards, and taking over all of that payroll function, and all the support for SAP. So it's a very big project, and quite frankly, in order to do it correctly it required a significant staffing change. Transfer and funding from Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations regarding the ERM project. That's Enterprise Risk Management, and elimination of Community Services recovery in the internal audit, and that was $450,000, and then increased amortization costs of $232,000, which would be clearly just a matter of picking up SAP, computers, those kinds of things.
MS. WHALEN: If I could ask, under the SAP program, would that not be cost recovered from the agencies that you support, those third-party agencies?
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MR. BAKER: There's no recovery from Education, so it's effectively an assistance we provide to school boards, in delivering their program and we get some cost recovery from municipalities. There are municipalities that actually are part of our SAP system, but that is probably not even full cost recovery, and again, it's something we provide - in some cases, to smaller municipalities and some cases, not small municipalities - to assist them in making sure they have modern financials. We get recoveries from the following municipalities: Cape Breton Regional Municipality, Queens Regional Municipality, Halifax Regional Municipality, the Municipality of the County of Annapolis, the Municipality of East Hants, the Town of Berwick, the Halifax Regional Water Commission, the Town of Amherst and the Nova Scotia Pension Agency, for a very small - because it's an outside agency, so we're doing their SAP. It's an in and out for us.
MS. WHALEN: In your description of the overall increase in spending you mentioned the elimination of internal audit . . .
MR. BAKER: No, no.
MS. WHALEN: What did you say about internal audit? I obviously didn't hear you right - where's it going or, what are you doing with internal audit is my next question.
MR. BAKER: We're expanding internal audit, not eliminating it.
MS. WHALEN: Okay, so it's an extra cost.
MR. BAKER: We have a very large project going on with Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, with respect to what's called Enterprise Risk Management. They provide us with the funds, but we, in fact, expand them so this is an internal transfer from Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations to us where we provide the auditing capability. In fact, we provide the internal auditors to Service Nova Scotia.
MS. WHALEN: Are you increasing the number of internal auditors on your payroll?
MR. BAKER: We are trying. There is a huge federal demand for internal auditors at the moment - I think we can all understand why that might be.
MS. WHALEN: Well, they perform a very important service.
MR. BAKER: They do provide a very important service and, as I said, it's a sellers market at the moment if you're an internal auditor.
MS. WHALEN: There may be a link here as well but I noticed that there was a new corporate services unit at Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations - it talked about 10 staff being transferred to that unit, this is how I read it anyway.
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MR. BAKER: There was some corporate service people moved from us to them, there's a bit of a trade going on there.
MS. WHALEN: Are those internal auditors?
MR. BAKER: No.
MS. WHALEN: Is that the link?
MR. BAKER: No, there are other personnel involved in management, but not internal auditors.
MS. WHALEN: They were financial people that were coming from the Department of Finance?
MR. BAKER: CSU people.
MS. WHALEN: CSU, okay.
MR. BAKER: Just for the member's information, the corporate service units - and there are a number of them around government - can provide a range of services from HR, IT, the classic money managers, the bookkeepers if you want to call it that function, those kind of functions are typically in a corporate service unit.
MS. WHALEN: In a number of the committees I've sat on, I think we've heard it at Public Accounts and a number of other places, the need for more internal auditors, that there was only something like seven or eight in the entire service.
MR. BAKER: There is an inadequate number. I think we would all agree there is an inadequate number of internal auditors - we would like to have more. We have seven and we're hoping to go to 15 so that's doubling.
MS. WHALEN: So seven is the number, similar to what I had heard before and you're looking to hire eight more then if you could.
MR. BAKER: That's right.
MS. WHALEN: Of those seven can you tell me where they are located right now?
MR. BAKER: Three are Community Services, one in EMO and the remainder in the Department of Finance.
MS. WHALEN: Three Community Services?
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MR. BAKER: Yes.
MS. WHALEN: One at Emergency Measures and the last?
[3:15 p.m.]
MR. BAKER: By my count, three more at Finance.
MS. WHALEN: Finance. Okay, do they float - your three from Finance?
MR. BAKER: The Finance three would be responsible for others other than the Department of Finance, but it's one of our own limitations. As you can appreciate, there's a lot of government left and we simply need more people , particularly for cash transactions or when a large number of cheques are issued - those are two high risk areas.
MS. WHALEN: It's a little disconcerting to see more at the Community Services Department and none at the Department of Health, for example, the highest spending we have in the entire government.
MR. BAKER: Yes, that's true, but when you look at the risk of missing funds, there are certain kinds of profiles that put you at higher risk. Obviously the Department of Health writes very few cheques to individuals where they are making the most of the DHAs, and the DHAs would have internal audit. We will be of course looking at Health as an area of improvement.
MS. WHALEN: Again, that gives a window on priorities too, but I'm glad to see an increase in the numbers, I hope you're successful in recruiting them.
MR. BAKER: That's been one of the challenges really because, as you can appreciate, it really has been a year when governments of all levels have begun to beef up that capability.
MS. WHALEN: About a year ago, there was a consultant study done. It was the Deloitte Touche study, on government control and framework, and related to the management of your pension assets. In that study, the one thing I recall that was discussed was, the consultant said it was impossible for them to assure the client, government, that the assets were being properly managed. There seemed to be some limitations in terms of what they could do as accountants to assure us that everything was proper, and they made a number of recommendations about major changes. I did see a couple of things added in the estimates. I wonder if you could just respond to that study, and bring us up to date on what has been done?
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MR. BAKER: In response to those recommendations in the Deloitte Touche audit, we've made significant progress in proving the government's and internal controls over the investment and liability management areas. These include: improving asset safeguards, such as that no one person can complete a transaction; establishing clear and appropriate oversight functions away from operational processes, separating those two; and establishing a middle office that conducts a real-time audit. This is a recognized best-business practice standard. These measures will increase the accountability and the transparency of these transactions. The middle office is quite a new innovation.
MS. WHALEN: The middle office did appear somewhere directly in these estimates, I did see that as a newly established agency.
MR. BAKER: It gives you current auditing capability, as opposed to after the fact.
MS. WHALEN: So it was begun last year, I gather? It has funds expended last year as well.
MR. BAKER: Yes.
MS. WHALEN: Can you tell me, since it's in its second year, is it working properly?
MR. BAKER: Yes, the staff are very satisfied that it has made a significant improvement.
MS. WHALEN: It's another agency where the amount is doubling in terms of what's being spent this year, but it looks like you were underspent last year. Could you explain, was it difficult to just ramp it up?
MR. BAKER: I think it was a question of it started late and they weren't able to expend all the money, staffing up and those kinds of things.
MS. WHALEN: So it was just a question of ramping up to full speed.
MR. BAKER: Yes. I think it's fair to say that one of the advantages that comes to Nova Scotians and the government as a result of our improved fiscal capacity is the ability to take and restore some vital positions that had been reduced by governments of all stripes in dire fiscal times, and to look at some of those re-hirings or the re-creation of positions, in this case, in order to protect the public better. What happens, of course, is when those decisions were made, they needed to be made. I'm not criticizing the people who made those decisions at all, I'm simply making the point that when you see a shortfall and you have the ability to at least partially address that, it's a good thing to do so.
MS. WHALEN: I agree.
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MR. BAKER: I think there's a recognition that some savings were not necessarily long-term savings.
MS. WHALEN: And again, that's a very important function. You're dealing with a lot of assets, and it's important that it be done right. I appreciate that. I've moved on a couple of pages to Page 9.5, under Funded Staff, looking at the staffing. I had something I wanted an explanation for, if I could. It's under the offsets, really, on the funded staff, where we have staff funded through Tangible Capital Assets. In the coming year, it's looking like 43 people.
MR. BAKER: Some of our staff have been with us a long time. No, that's not the answer.
MS. WHALEN: I'd like to have that explained, if I could, what that means.
MR. BAKER: This is one of the wonderful parts of accounting. When people are working on a capital project, and these people are working on a school board project, we're actually required to expense, because they're actually part of the capital project itself, we're required to expense them as a capital investment. Therefore, you get the amortization schedule that applies to the project as a whole, applies to the individuals. So you don't treat them as 100 per cent operating cost, you actually capitalize their cost over the life of the project. It's just one of the wonders of accounting, which you become more and more aware of, once you do this job, and you are becoming aware of them, too.
MS. WHALEN: Is that a standard practice in industry?
MR. BAKER: That is a standard practice in industry and one that the Auditor General, among others, would force upon us, and good accounting management requires.
MS. WHALEN: Under Generally Accepted Accounting Principles.
MR. BAKER: I suppose at some level it makes sense, because when you look at a project, a project is composed of people and a project doesn't work, in fact, without people. When you look at costing them, you are required to cost them not over the short term but to cost them over the life of that entire project. No different than the masons who may build a building are capitalized - their labour is capitalized over the time of the project. It certainly is not what you would expect.
MS. WHALEN: No, it isn't what I . . .
MR. BAKER: It is not - when we all grew up with sort of cash accounting, right, you know, you spend the money this year, you account for the money this year.
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MS. WHALEN: And you would expect that government has a certain overhead that they carry, in terms of staffing and expertise - Generally Accepted Accounting Principles, okay.
Talking about the tangible capital assets, so in accounting there is always leeway within these rules. A lot of them are not hard and fast - you determine the amounts, you determine what is capitalized and what isn't, to a certain degree. When I was the Finance Critic a couple of years ago, there was a change in the levels of what would be considered capital and what is considered maintenance or general upkeep. The government considerably downgraded the amount that was now allowed to be capitalized, so a new roof might now become a capital project because it is over $200,000, or whatever the limit is. I think it had previously been around $250,000 and it was brought down. Perhaps you could just refresh the memory of the committee.
MR. BAKER: Well first of all, there have been no changes, I believe, in this last year. Yes, there were some changes made as a result of a re-examination of what appropriate standards for capital assets were, as opposed to non-capital assets and those policies were adjusted. My understanding from staff is that we canvassed other provinces and developed policies that were consistent with other provincial standards.
MS. WHALEN: That makes me feel better, if it is in line again with other provinces. I think it is important that does allow you the opportunity to start to treat some regular expenditures as something extraordinary or capital in nature. That means you are then financing it over a long period of time and, at the same time on the other hand, boasting about balanced budgets when some of those costs, perhaps, should be considered an annual cost of doing business. That would be the debate and I understand that within accounting there are ranges of what is acceptable, so I am not suggesting that you have broken any rules.
MR. BAKER: I think it is fair to say, though, and I remember when those items came through Cabinet, I wasn't minister at the time of course, when they came through Cabinet. There was a general, certainly a sense, as laymen, that these were the kind of expenditures that had many years of useful expenditure attached to them. So, for example, my house, I am looking at probably in the next year or two replacing the roof. Hopefully, that roof won't have to be replaced for 20 years and therefore, to treat that as an annual expenditure is quite artificial. I assure you, God forbid my roof would cost over $100,000.
MS. WHALEN: There is an argument for that and I do appreciate it. I am glad there has been no further change because I think we have already gone down . . .
MR. BAKER: I won't say there won't be adjustments but I think it will be - there was a major review and it may be a number of years before something happens again.
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MS. WHALEN: Okay, that does answer that. Still on the area of the controller, I am looking again at the funded staff. There was a big increase this year in the number of staff and I wonder if you could explain that again. Maybe it ties right in to the people you have told me about under the other increase in expenditures. That is on Page 9.5. It says 153.
MR. BAKER: The FTE change, I can give you an explanation. Ten positions were added for the project, the JEM project, which are ancillary staff who are not recoverable through TCA, and there are three positions added in Policy and Planning which I talked here about earlier. There were three positions approved in the 2005-06 budget for the core competency centre in support of the SAP HR system for the province and the school boards. There were two positions added in the payroll services to support the rollout of that JEM SAP Project.
There was a position added in CIS to support the Department of Community Services' Disabled Persons and Income Assistance Program. We assumed the program and we had to add a position. One position was transferred into CIS from the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries to support the Farm Loan Board and that's a SAP project. Then the rest is due to annualizations, which is regular increases. Then there were 10 positions out - just to get the math right - 10 positions were transferred to Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations to create a stand-alone finance CSU at Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations.
MS. WHALEN: That's good.
MR. BAKER: That's where the pluses and minuses and that's where it becomes hard, I know, for members to follow because some staff are coming in, some are going out, as they try to redefine the services they provide departments.
MS. WHALEN: I think it's important for us to understand when there is a bump or a change in how business is being conducted. If you need that many more people, why is it and how?
MR. BAKER: And generally, you know, in many cases it actually does mirror a change in policy or emphasis within the department.
MS. WHALEN: I wonder if I could ask how much time I have left?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. You have approximately 28 minutes.
MS. WHALEN: Well, 28 minutes, that's good, then we have time. I wanted to go just again, still staying with the estimates to the debt servicing costs under - it's at Page 10.2 - and under the debenture debt there is a big change in foreign exchange this year and I wondered if that could be explained? In fact, it looks like we have more money, I don't
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know. It's a big change over a number of years in that line. The amount is an amount in brackets, it comes off and it's $7.8 million?
[3:30 p.m.]
MR. BAKER: What has happened in simple terms is, of course, we still have some component of our debt that's foreign holdings and as that Canadian dollar's position has improved, the improvement, meaning that it's cheaper to pay that foreign debt back in terms of Canadian dollars which is, of course, what we have. We are required to recognize that improvement and amortize it over a period of time and that is the figure, that line. That $7,858,000 is the recognition for this fiscal year of that improvement. It's an amortization over that period of time, it's not the total change for the year. It's the amortizing amount.
MS. WHALEN: Is it an actual cost then, you're amortizing something here so it's not based on the actual cost of what we have to pay back this year?
MR. BAKER: No, it's averaged over a period of time. It's averaged over the life of the debt. So if you look at the debt, for example, if it's 12 years left to pay back, then you would look at a 12-year period and if it's three years to be paid back, then it goes over a shorter period of time.
MS. WHALEN: But it's definitely a more favourable situation and we like that.
MR. BAKER: And the purpose of amortizing it is to smooth it out because, as you can appreciate, currency fluctuates dramatically within a certain range and by amortizing it, you take out artificial highs and lows. The Canadian dollar, for example, two years from now, might drop back by six or seven cents and with amortization, you've smoothed out that, so you don't get the appearance of having vastly improved your situation, when you have to make your final payment on the debt, in making the payment in dollars worth the same amount as when you started.
MS. WHALEN: I'll put that one aside and we'll start on some other questions. I'd like to look again at a figure in there, it's on Page 1.6, but I don't have it front of me. It's called restructuring costs. It's under the consolidated fund, and I wanted you to explain to me what that is. It's actually grown by about 100 per cent in two years, which is why it came to my attention.
MR. BAKER: The major fluctuation in that is because this is largely composed of unsettled collective agreements, meaning collective agreements that have expired or will expire in the fiscal year. Needless to say, it is impossible to negotiate collective agreements if you indicate in advance how much money you have estimated that you will settle those collective agreements for. So this fund captures an amount of money, including other things,
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but largely an amount of money, which is the government's estimates of what they would be able to settle various contracts for.
MS. WHALEN: So, if two years ago it was $61.5 million and this year it's $114 million, it just reflects more contracts coming up?
MR. BAKER: It's a function of what contracts expire in this fiscal year, and those numbers can fluctuate dramatically, depending on which year of a cycle you're in. Collective agreements often times have a three to four-year cycle, and so depending on which year of the cycle you're in and which collective agreements because obviously there are some collective agreements with huge numbers of employees and others with much lower numbers.
For example, built into that would be not only collective agreements but technically speaking, agreements with doctors, different professional groups within the medical. The NSGEU contract would have been built into that, last year. It's designed to cover the value it would have to pay, yes. A contract is signed and then in the next year, they move it into the departments and so you'll see it annualized in a department in a particular year. So the Department of Health - say for example, health contracts were being negotiated this year, the money would be held centrally this year and once the contract is negotiated this year with their employees, then we would show that money in the following year, in the Department of Health estimates.
MS. WHALEN: That's a good explanation, thank you very much. I appreciate that. I'd like to look a little bit at the debt-servicing costs and the sinking fund, as well, or the earnings from the sinking fund. Ready? I'm just giving you a moment, so you can get settled. I'm looking specifically at the sinking fund earnings for this year and they are estimated to be significantly lower than the last two years. What I have is $87 million, estimated for 2006-07. Last year, it was $123 million. Before that $143 million and I guess I'd like an explanation please, about why you're estimating the earnings to be that much lower, or what is impacting that?
MR. BAKER: It's simply drawing down on that fund, so you draw it down so that you pay off some debt, which therefore reduces your interest costs.
MS. WHALEN: At the same time our debt, though, has been increasing, so it's a bit more complicated isn't it?
MR. BAKER: You've got an asset and liability, so you've got to look at the two. They're two movements in synchronicity, so as you take money out of the sinking fund, which is an asset, you no longer have the asset from an accounting point of view, but you have reduced your amount of interest payable. So that is what is going on.
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The debt increase - and we are talking about the debt increase - we would be talking about liability increase for the Province of Nova Scotia and that may be going up, but that doesn't actually mean the amount of actual debt is going up. It is important to understand, and I had some time to get used to this concept, that debt for accounting purposes may not be actual money owing from the point of view of a creditor. So you may not have a bond, for example, that represents that, or it may be an offsetting entry, for example, that the net debt that the province owes - net direct debt - is not necessarily composed of money owed.
P3 leases, for example, are a net direct debt, but they are not debt instruments that are outstanding.
MS. WHALEN: But they are an ongoing obligation.
MR. BAKER: Unfunded pension liabilities would be another thing that would fit in our net direct debt, but they are not owing, there is no instrument that creates an interest cost to that fund.
MS. WHALEN: But again, they are an obligation of the province, which is why they are seen as debt.
MR. BAKER: That's right, but net direct debt is a combination of obligations that the province owes and actual debt owed, in the classic sense of debt.
MS. WHALEN: What I am just seeing here is the net direct servicing costs last year were $872 million, and then this year they are going to be higher at $884 million. So the actual servicing cost appears to be higher, at least for the net debt servicing cost, but the gross debt servicing cost looks like it has gone down about $20 million. So it is a little bit confusing and I would like to have an understanding of why one goes up - one is going in the opposite direction and you have given me the explanation of the sinking fund which, presumably, was retiring some debt so that you save on the servicing costs.
MR. BAKER: This is as a result of increased interest costs in the market as a whole. It is important to remember that also, the Canadian dollar is, in may ways connected in some way to interest rates, so we have an advantage over time of a Canadian dollar that has risen, but it has also risen partly on the strength of higher interest rates. So this is the other side of the coin where you have a higher Canadian dollar, which has improved our situation as you saw on anther page, right? What happens, of course, is the interest costs of borrowing have gone up, which has driven the dollar higher. So you see the linkage between the two and that is why you see in finance - I found this to be an interesting learning experience myself - nothing is necessarily a one-way transaction because you will find movement up, for example, in one area and, at the same time, there will be movement down in another as a result of those kinds of big market changes.
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MS. WHALEN: I appreciate that and I do give the minister a lot of credit for having absorbed so much of this in a short period of time, although I know you have been in government a long time, but nevertheless . . .
MR. BAKER: Just for your information, short-term interest rates have gone up about 2 per cent and you can see, not that a lot of our debt is held short-term but there is some debt held short-term. Therefore, when those rates are dropping again, then you get a huge advantage from that short-term debt because your rates drop quickly. The counter to that is probably that your Canadian dollar, in many cases, may drop as a result of those short-term interest rates.
MS. WHALEN: What it does suggest as well though, to the minister, is that there is a lot of risk involved in the fluctuations of interest rates as well. We have been enjoying a period of really very low rates, almost historically low interest rates over a period of time.
MR. BAKER: And, quite frankly, we also have had up until recently - and enjoyed is not the right word because from the point of view of the provincial debt, low value of the Canadian dollar makes it more expensive - when we found a recent movement in the Canadian dollar has improved that situation but it is hard to tell when you are in these things whether you are in just a fluctuation or if you are in the long-term trend. If we knew that, we could make an awful lot of money on the market.
MS. WHALEN: I would like just one further explanation and that is the fact that the net debt servicing costs and the gross debt servicing costs are going in two different directions this year. The net debt is going higher and the gross debt servicing cost is actually lower than last year. I find that a little perplexing. I wonder if you could explain that to me, since we have the experts here today.
MR. BAKER: It has to do with the sinking fund interest, I'm told. When you're netting that out.
MS. WHALEN: And the sinking fund interest is applied to the gross debt - is that right? Every year it's applied to that to equal our net direct service costs. Okay.
It is a little complex and I appreciate your going through it with me. Again, I'm sort of getting back to speed again in this area, so I do appreciate that.
MR. BAKER: There's been so many changes in the last year over sort of historical trends - the higher Canadian dollar and the rising interest rates being two examples of that.
MS. WHALEN: I must say, I've always appreciated the opportunity to go to the Department of Finance and speak to staff directly when I've had questions in the past and I hope I will be doing that again. It is often the case, and it can eliminate a lot of
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misunderstanding before we ever get to the Legislature or come to a committee and have the wrong kind of questions. So, it's important.
MR. BAKER: That's right and the information is information which I think will assist everybody in doing their jobs better.
MS. WHALEN: That's right, so thank you very much. I wanted to go to the debt reduction plan of 2005. When I was reviewing it to see the update from the original plan which was two years earlier, one of the things it talks about, of course, really the basis of it is the offshore offset that we saw last year come to Nova Scotia. In this, I was interested to see where it says the government will be required to produce surpluses at least equal to that portion of the $830 million recognized under GAAP as revenue earned from the offshore offset in each of the next eight years.
I wondered if you could explain to me why that would be? I realized when we received the $8-plus million, it was determined that roughly $50 million a year, at least in the first year, would be available - perhaps that's every year.
MR. BAKER: It was an eight year agreement.
MS. WHALEN: Extra spending, I understood that you had the opportunity to either put more on the debt or spend $50 million more. Mr. Chairman, could you tell me the time again, please.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. You have approximately six and one-half minutes.
MS. WHALEN: I have so many more questions. Okay, I'll hurry this up.
[3:45 p.m.]
MR. BAKER: The first part of this is the interest reduction. The Province of Nova Scotia, when we received the $830 million, paid down our debt by that $830 million. That's our cash debt, if you want to call it that. It, therefore, reduced our interest costs by the amount of interest that would have been on that amount, and that's the $50 million figure you referred to. That's straightforward and you would see that number reflected in our interest borrowing cost column.
The second component of that is how much we recognize for accounting purposes. This is where government accounting and Generally Accepted Accounting Principles kind of diverge. In order to follow Generally Accepted Accounting Principles, what we did was, we then have to recognize the amount of clawback. It's the money that we earn each year that we would have lost in equalization. This is connected to the equalization formula, how much
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is recognized, and that's why that number fluctuates because it depends on the equalization formula and how it flows through.
It also depends on royalties, because that's connected. Remember the equalization is connected to royalties because at this present time - remember the Offshore Accord is not an equalization agreement but an agreement outside of equalization. There was no change to the equalization as a result of that, so it's in effect a put-back mechanism. What happens is that we lose it in equalization, so the money actually flows out in the equalization formula by the royalties we generate from the offshore, and flows back to us under the offshore agreement, so the amount we recognize for accounting purposes is that amount. That goes to our surplus, and that amount to the surplus is paid down in the debt because all surplus amounts are paid down in the debt.
MS. WHALEN: How much is that amount this year?
MR. BAKER: It is $57 million.
MS. WHALEN: It has to go to our surplus?
MR. BAKER: Exactly.
MS. WHALEN: So we really are obligated to carry at least something in the range of $50 or $60 million?
MR. BAKER: The $57 million surplus and that is to make sure - in fact, we get double benefit, if you want to call it that, from the offshore money. You get the interest saving, plus that money gets paid down in the debt and that's the way, from an accounting point of view, you make sure that money flows through to the bottom line.
MS. WHALEN: It seems a little surprising, but I get an idea.
MR. BAKER: It's very elaborate, but well thought-out calculations.
MS. WHALEN: We only have a couple of minutes left, so I want to just go very quickly through a few questions. Equalization - of course, you talked about the fiscal imbalance and the negotiations federally. My concern is around the population decrease in Nova Scotia and its impact on our revenues. Can you speak briefly to the impact this year of population figures? I understand we're down again. Two years ago, it meant in the range of $60 million difference because our population was less, and we get it on a per capita basis.
MR. BAKER: What the member would be referring to would be the effect of the 2001 census - actually it is a semi-census because the official census is every 10 years, but
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that 2001 census was a $60 million impact as a result of that. The 2006 census - the impact of whether it's positive or negative - won't be felt until the end of 2007-08 fiscal year.
MS. WHALEN: So another full fiscal year away?
MR. BAKER: Yes.
MS. WHALEN: Okay. I think the trend is there, so I'm concerned in your negotiations that we look at that. I have another question, it's in the budget overview. It refers to land acquisition in the Department of Natural Resources and the need to increase spending; it said it has risen by $3.16 million. I'm wondering if you can be specific about what land acquisition and what initiative might be associated with that?
MR. BAKER: I can't be specific about that other than to say that there's a recognition that there is an inadequate amount of Crown land in Nova Scotia. This was a recognition by government that we had a deficiency and we needed to acquire Crown land. I know that one of the purchases that they've talked about - I just heard about it - is the Bowater lands which will provide a lot of very environmentally sensitive land along water courses in southwestern Nova Scotia, that will become Crown land. Remember we talked about Aboriginal Affairs, the Mersey River project, and how the Mersey River lands are very archaeologically sensitive lands as well as environmentally sensitive, and that will allow us to acquire lands along the Mersey River, as an example.
MS. WHALEN: And you're moving to 12 per cent Crown land in the province because of national average.
MR. BAKER: That's right.
MS. WHALEN: I wanted to just mention that Bowater purchase of land a few months ago in early May, just after an agreement was struck with Stora, it was announced that $26 million would be used to purchase land by Bowater. What was interesting in the statements by the minister and so on at the time, was that it hadn't been determined what exactly would be purchased for that amount of money. It said we're looking somewhere from 20,000 to 40,000 acres of land and it's a significant piece of real estate.
MR. BAKER: I think I can actually explain that - I'm not the Minister of Natural Resources.
MS. WHALEN: It's concerning from a financially prudent and responsible point of view, that you would announce what money is on the table before you've associated the asset you're going to buy.
[Page 358]
MR. BAKER: My understanding is that the land has different values and that there is a pre-established value on this land. So what happens is the department is going to - they had put this land on the market, it was on the market for anybody to buy. You or I could have bought it if we had the money. So what happened was the government wants to go through the amount, the land that was put on the market, go through that land and that inventory of land, and pick land which is environmentally sensitive, which has got value for archaeological reasons or other. So while we weren't buying all the land that was on the market, we were buying - I guess the best I can think of is cherry-picking, right, and we were going to go through it and cherry-pick things that met the provincial needs whether environmental or otherwise.
MS. WHALEN: I think the minister would agree that it just looked a little bit not well thought out or well executed.
MR. BAKER: No. In fact, it was very well thought out but it just wasn't explained as well as it might have been.
MS. WHALEN: Thank you to the minister and staff.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I would call on the minister to make a closing statement.
MR. BAKER: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to thank the members who asked questions, for their questions, particularly either on the Aboriginal Affairs side or on the Department of Finance side, or other sides. If members have technical briefings, we can often arrange for those technical briefings for members because they are I think very important in allowing informed questions and informed answers. While we may not always agree on the philosophical side of it, at least it helps for everybody to have a good grounding in the facts, and that's what we're certainly going to endeavour to do whether it's with respect to Finance, Aboriginal Affairs, or any of my other responsibilities. With that, I would read my resolutions:
Resolution E8 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $963,998,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of Debt Servicing Costs, Department of Finance, pursuant to the Estimate.
Resolution E15 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $3,103,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Executive Council, pursuant to the Estimate, for Aboriginal Affairs.
Resolution E17 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $8,052,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of Government Contributions to Benefit Plans, pursuant to the Estimate.
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Resolution E24 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $1,928,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Nova Scotia Securities Commission, pursuant to the Estimate.
Resolution E25 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $3,264,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board, pursuant to the Estimate.
Resolution E34 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $113,937,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of Restructuring Costs, pursuant to the Estimate.
Resolution E35 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $33,213,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Pension Valuation Adjustment, pursuant to the Estimate.
Resolution E36 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $335,000,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of Capital Purchase Requirements, pursuant to the Estimate.
Resolution E37 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $97,004,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of Sinking Fund Instalments and Serial Retirements, pursuant to the Estimate.
Resolution E39 - Resolved, that the business plan of the Halifax-Dartmouth Bridge Commission be approved.
Resolution E40 - Resolved, that the business plan of the Nova Scotia Gaming Corporation be approved.
Resolution E43 - Resolved, that the business plan of Rockingham Terminal Incorporated be approved.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E7 stand?
Resolution E7 stands.
Shall Resolution Nos. 8, 15, 17, 24, 25, 34, 35, 36, 37, 39, 40 and 43 carry?
The resolutions are carried.
We'll be moving on to Human Resources.
[Page 360]
[4:00 p.m. ]
I would like to welcome the honourable Minister of Human Resources and call upon the minister to begin with an opening statement, please.
HON. ERNEST FAGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'll do a brief opening statement if it's agreeable with the NDP caucus and the Liberal caucus. I'd like to do a small opening statement on the Public Service as well as a separate one for EMO. We have both staff here so if we could do them both in the same time allotment that would be wonderful. Okay, thank you.
First of all it's my honour to be here today to address the Subcommittee of the Whole House on Supply as it considers Estimates for the 2006 and 2007 budget. As Minister of Human Resources, I will be speaking today about the Public Service Commission's budget, its programs, services and progress with the government's corporate human resources plan. First of all joining me for that segment is Rick Nurse to my left. Rick is the commissioner of the Public Service. To my right is Gordon Adams, Gordon is the PSC's Executive Director for planning coordination. I have Jackie Ross, manager of budget from the Department of Justice CSU here as well. Additional members, if needed to be called upon, are behind us.
I just wanted to make a couple of quick points and the first one is about the size of the Public Service in Nova Scotia. The core of Public Service here in Nova Scotia is 11,000. The department is responsible for advice, development and implementation of human resource programs, policies and strategies to ensure that people are treated fairly and respectfully and are encouraged to pursue successful and challenging careers in the Public Service. It also includes the purview of the way we recruit, recognize, compensate and train employees as well. I have a number of notes with me and I will be tabling those notes and other things as we go through the questioning that I hope people will ask questions on or recognize as the competency of the Public Service here in Nova Scotia and, more particularly as minister responsible, the competency and the respect that the staff at the PSC embodies here for Nova Scotia.
The other department staff here today are from the Department of Emergency Management and joining me later, he's at the back of the room now, is Mr. Craig MacLaughlan, CEO and Deputy Head of that department, as well, several support staff are with him. Given the forefront of emergency preparedness over the last several years and some of the events that we have encountered here as a jurisdiction in Nova Scotia, emergency preparedness is certainly a topic that Nova Scotians watch closely. We're extremely proud of having one of the top two or three organizations across this country in emergency preparedness. In my view we have the best model in the country, we have a JEOC command centre that has provincial EMO staff, federal staff as well as local city staff and
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they are all housed in the same area. It's a model for the country and we're proud of what they've accomplished and implemented over the last several years. I will table the full introductions for both of those and proceed to attempt to answer questions on behalf of the two budgets.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage.
MR. KEVIN DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I want to talk about female crown attorneys. I had the opportunity, during the election, to meet some of the women who are crown attorneys in this province and I'm not sure if the minister who is new to this portfolio is aware of it but I'm pretty sure the Commissioner of the Public Service Commission is. The issue is the benefits they receive or don't receive as a result of going on maternity leave.
Under the Association of International Prosecutors, there are certain standards that are supposed to be met for prosecutors and Crown Attorneys, those who are members and Nova Scotia is a member of that organization. As part of that, the issue comes up as to why the female Crown Attorneys in Nova Scotia who go on maternity leave have their benefits - you may correct me as to the specifics - suspended in some respects.
For example, seniority is not increased or enhanced while they're off. I believe if this were another person in the Civil Service they would not have the same retribution happening. I'm wondering if the minister can put on the record his understanding of the problem and why the problem hasn't been solved?
MR. FAGE: I guess, in general parameters, the PFC and the Nova Scotia Crown Attorneys' Association have negotiated two agreements - each one of these have been concluded through interest arbitration. The most recent agreement expired March 31st of this year.
As I'm sure the honourable member is aware, the agreement is silent on the issue of maternity and paternity leave. It was one of the issues in the last interest arbitration that was addressed by the arbitrator, Mr. Outhouse. I guess his rejection was based on the merit component, from my understanding of the pay plan, but certainly I would think as the new agreement is arbitrator negotiated that would be an issue that would continue to be part of the discussion.
MR. DEVEAUX: My understanding is the arbitration can only apply to pay. It doesn't apply to standing or other benefits. Can the minister confirm that? That the only matter that can be arbitrated - if negotiations fail that can go to arbitration or some sort of binding arbitration - is pay and not benefits and not other merit issues. Is that correct?
MR. FAGE: I certainly am not an expert myself, but Gordon has indicated that's correct.
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MR. DEVEAUX: Okay. So, this becomes the problem. If there's a dispute between the Crown Attorneys' Association and the members they represent and the Public Service Commission that is not related to pay, how do we resolve those issues if there isn't interest arbitration that's allowed?
MR. FAGE: I guess my understanding is it's one of the issues that is being examined since the agreement has expired, I think from both sides, looking at trying to address that particular issue.
MR. DEVEAUX: I guess the other question then becomes, there are lawyers in the government who are female lawyers who are not Crown Attorneys who we would say are civil-side, ones who represent divisions, they do solicitor work. Do they have the same problem as the Crown Attorneys?
MR. FAGE: I'm advised that the whole approach and part of reviewing this situation is to try to ensure that in the future if there are inconsistencies that we will be consistent in the future.
MR. DEVEAUX: So right now, is there an inconsistency in how we treat female Crown Attorneys versus other female lawyers who work for government?
MR. FAGE: I guess that's currently what's being reviewed, looking at ways to ensure there is consistency.
MR. DEVEAUX: There is what?
MR. FAGE: That there will be consistency.
MR. DEVEAUX: So you're saying there isn't? I'm just trying to understand, is there an inconsistency? Do we treat female civil-side lawyers differently than we treat female Crown Attorneys with regard to benefits that accrue during maternity leave?
MR. FAGE: That's what's currently under review, that particular item right there.
MR. DEVEAUX: So you're saying that at this point, as minister, you can't say whether there's an inconsistency between how we treat Crown Attorneys who are female and civil-side lawyers who are female? You don't know?
MR. FAGE: I am informed that the pay plans for those two groups are different, how you arrive at compensation and remuneration and that is the reason for the review, so that . . .
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MR. DEVEAUX: We are not talking about pay, we are talking about the other benefits, like seniority, like - I am not even absolutely sure in great detail as to the benefits they are losing or not accruing while they are on maternity leave. I am not so worried about the pay as much as I am about these other benefits that somehow the female Crown Attorneys are not getting because they go on maternity leave. Do we treat the female civil- side lawyers differently with regard to those benefits?
MR. FAGE: I guess the two plans obviously are two different agreements. The issue of review is primarily pay, but if you can outline maybe specifically what the issue is, we can . . .
MR. DEVEAUX: Okay, seniority. So seniority - correct me if I am wrong - I understand that a female Crown Attorney who goes on maternity leave does not accrue seniority for that year that she is off. Is that correct, that she actually is sort of put on hold, that is not considered a year for purposes of seniority calculation?
MR. FAGE: In the agreement with the Crowns it talks about the relevancy of years of experience and that is more the heart of the question, relevancy of years of experience or seniority and what is the correlation between the two.
MR. DEVEAUX: So in the agreement between the Crown Attorneys and the Public Service Commission, if a woman is pregnant and she goes on maternity leave and she is a Crown Attorney, that is not considered a year of experience and therefore it is not calculated towards her seniority, correct?
MR. FAGE: That is correct; that is my understanding.
MR. DEVEAUX: So a civil-side lawyer who is a female, who is pregnant and goes on maternity leave, for purposes of their calculation of seniority, does that year of maternity leave get calculated in as a year of seniority or is it removed?
MR. FAGE: Going back to the base issue of why it has to be reviewed, years of relevant services is how you accumulate. They accumulate in two different formats.
[4:15 p.m.]
MR. DEVEAUX: So now we are getting somewhere. So civil-side female lawyers who go on maternity leave do accrue a year of seniority for purposes of calculating seniority, is that correct?
MR. FAGE: I guess there are always stipulations around any agreement and those things will be determined on how long the maternity leave was, how much time was taken off, those types of things, whether it would affect seniority in one plan where the other plan
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is years of relevant service is how you accumulate. They accumulate - one apples, one oranges.
MR. DEVEAUX: So I understand that, but I need to clarify this for the record. If you are a female lawyer working for the government, civil- side, not as a Crown Attorney, and you take one year off, which you are entitled to for maternity leave, will that year not be calculated in as part of your seniority calculation, or will it be calculated in? A simple question.
MR. FAGE: I guess I'm being advised that it depends on the length of time chosen by the individual on their maternity leave. Given the length of time, it could have an adverse effect on the pay scale or number of years.
MR. DEVEAUX: Seniority, not pay scale, seniority calculation - is that year calculated towards their seniority or not, if they take a year which they're entitled to?
MR. FAGE: I guess, again, I'm advised it goes back to years of relevant experience, not seniority.
MR. DEVEAUX: For the civil-side female lawyers - I know the relevancy issue because that comes in under the collective agreement or the agreement between Crown and PSC - I'm asking for the civil-side female lawyers, is it relevancy or is it years of service and, therefore, is maternity leave considered a year of service for purpose of calculating seniority?
MR. FAGE: Depending on the amount of time they choose to take off, it could have an impact on their years of relevant service.
MR. DEVEAUX: Right, okay. Can you tell me, at what point does it have an impact? Is two months allowed, is six months allowed? At what point does it become a factor, how long they take off, or I guess - let me put that another way - how long can a female civil-side lawyer take off for maternity leave before it impacts her seniority calculation?
MR. FAGE: I guess one statement that I made earlier is why it's important, why it's all under review. It can be different lengths of time for different individuals, depending on their anniversary date of when they joined. So it's not the same amount . . .
MR. DEVEAUX: Based on what year they joined or based on what date it is in the calendar year?
MR. FAGE: What date it is in the calendar year.
[Page 365]
MR. DEVEAUX: So if I joined on January 1st and I'm a civil-side female lawyer, that makes a difference on whether or not my entire maternity leave will be counted towards seniority than rather I started on July 1st, or October 29th?
MR. FAGE: Honourable member, certainly it's a very complicated issue and I would recommend we'll get back to you with those type of details, but it can vary, like we said earlier, from anniversary date to when it was asked for during the calendar year, and it would be easier probably if we got those type of details to you in written form or returned with those answers.
MR. DEVEAUX: So, if you are a woman in the Civil Service who is not a lawyer, collective agreement or no collective agreement in place, do the same rules apply as apply to Crown Attorneys with regard to how you calculate their benefits for seniority while they're on maternity leave?
MR. FAGE: No.
MR. DEVEAUX: There's a policy within the government that says that if I am female civil servant and I go on maternity leave that my time on maternity leave will be calculated towards my seniority, correct?
MR. FAGE: There are a number of factors, as you can appreciate. Different groups, the Crowns or - collective agreements negotiate different deals which have different functions to them, and part of the reason for this review is to ensure that there is some consistency across those agreements.
MR. DEVEAUX: When do we see this review being completed?
MR. FAGE: I'm told by staff that they expect to complete the review within the next three months.
MR. DEVEAUX: So by the end of September, or early October, we should have a report?
MR. FAGE: That's what staff is indicating.
MR. DEVEAUX: And since there's an agreement with the Crown Attorneys that I take at this point is being renegotiated, it's the assumption then that the Public Service Commission's position will be whatever this report recommends will become the position they will take to the Crown Attorneys for purposes of negotiating a new agreement?
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MR. FAGE: I really can't comment or make that determination. We've have to conduct a review and then each negotiated agreement has its own group that would negotiate. I don't negotiate . . .
MR. DEVEAUX: So you're negotiating these agreements. My understanding is you're saying the purpose of this committee is to try to harmonize the rules, correct? But depending on what is negotiated on the number of different agreements you have with the Crown Attorneys, NSGEU - and it could be, I guess, also the highway workers - depending on what's negotiated in each one, even though the committee's job is to harmonize, it is still very plausible, depending on what's negotiated, it could still end up being different?
MR. FAGE: We're obviously looking for fairness and equity when you do those types of reviews. Each individual agreement has its labour negotiators and group, and what they would see is what they have in the current one, where they may or may not want to move, so I really couldn't prejudge those issues.
MR. DEVEAUX: But even after another round of negotiations, there still may not be harmonization on this issue?
MR. FAGE: There's no guarantee.
MR. DEVEAUX: Why can't we guarantee that? Why isn't it a policy of the Public Service Commission and the Human Resources Department - why isn't it a policy so that we do have some consistency in government?
MR. FAGE: The goal of collective agreements is to come to an agreement. Each side will have a position, each collective agreement will sometimes see things in a varying light or degree of importance to them. I really can't prejudge those individual agreements until they're negotiated. What we are looking to do is we're looking for fairness and equity across the group and, as we all know, sometimes total harmony is a difficult thing to find.
MR. DEVEAUX: I guess the problem I have is that we have specific rules for maternity leave that apply to everyone across the Civil Service, whether they're in a collective agreement, whether they have a quasi-collective agreement as the Crown Attorneys have, whether they are MCP and therefore not covered by a collective agreement, there are certain policies in place that we ensure are consistent for everyone and therefore, presumably, they're not negotiable, or they are ones that are a minimum standard that the government refuses to go below.
Why is it that the Government of Nova Scotia cannot say that for purposes of maternity leave all female employees will be treated equally and receive the benefits that should be accrued to them, including things like seniority? Why is it so hard to make that a minimum standard that every female employee has the right to?
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MR. FAGE: I think the answer lies in why the review is being conducted. Each one has different agreements. I don't presume, and I know staff doesn't, to negotiate on behalf of Crown Attorneys. They have to bring their own positions and . . .
MR. DEVEAUX: Why is it not a minimum standard, that the government says everyone, as a minimum, will meet this standard and will have this benefit? Why can't it be a minimum standard, like others?
MR. FAGE: Again, that's why we're doing the review, to see if there is that equity and fairness factor there.
MR. DEVEAUX: You have told me that if the review is done, there's no guarantee that there will be a consistent standard. I guess what I'm hoping is, as the minister, you're prepared to commit today that once the committee does its review and they do set a standard, that that's a standard that every female in the Civil Service will have the right to benefit from.
MR. FAGE: And again, prejudging those positions of the various collective agreements is something that is not within my purview.
MR. DEVEAUX: Certain conditions of employment are minimum and they do not involve negotiating part of a collective agreement. Why can't the government commit to making, as a minimum standard, as a policy of the Public Service Commission, that every female employee will have the same benefit accruing with regard to seniority and other things while they are on maternity leave? Why does that have to be negotiated? Why can't that be a minimum standard that every woman in the civil service has a right to?
MR. FAGE: Again, someone else may be able to speak on behalf of the Crown Attorneys, I'm not able to.
MR. DEVEAUX: It has nothing to do with the Crown Attorneys, Mr. Minister, it has to do with you as the minister in charge of the Public Service Commission. Why can't you and your Cabinet, even your department maybe, I'm not sure how the rules apply with regard to policies of the Public Service Commission, why can't you set that as a minimum standard? It has nothing to do with the Crown Attorneys or the highway workers or an employee of the Department of Environment and Labour who is a woman - why can't the same rule apply for every one of them? That's up to you.
MR. FAGE: And again, I go back to the purpose of the review, it's to see that there's fairness and equity across the agreements. The issue that you've raised, seniority, significant years, those are base things that have to be negotiated and equated with groups.
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MR. DEVEAUX: No, they don't have to be negotiated. They don't have to be negotiated. Fairness and equity, I agree, are great words. They're great words for us to all try to accomplish, but to accomplish it the easiest way possible is for you to make it a minimum standard that's a policy of your department and of the Public Service Commission. If you refuse to do that, then you are not meeting fairness and equity, and I don't understand why.
MR. FAGE: Well, we'll have to see what the review brings forward.
MR. DEVEAUX: Okay. I pass the rest of my time over to the member for Cape Breton Nova.
[4:30 p.m.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cape Breton Nova.
MR. GORDON GOSSE: To my knowledge, there are over 1,500 casual employees working in the Civil Service, side by side with members of the NSGEU. They do the same work and work the same hours as other civil servants, year in and year out, but they do not receive the same wages, benefits and protections that members receive under the terms of the master Civil Service Agreement. I'm just asking, are you willing to amend the Civil Service Collective Bargaining Act by eliminating Section 1, 1(c) and (d), in order to allow casual employees to be fully considered as employees? If so, by when; if not, please explain.
MR. FAGE: There are provisions where casuals or people who work seasonally can become members and receive benefits. Those avenues are open to those individual workers.
MR. GOSSE: Another area of concern to me is the eligibility of part-time and casual employees to be part of the Public Service Superannuation Plan. Under the current regulations, part-time employees who work at least 700 hours in a year or who are paid at least 35 per cent of the year's maximum pensionable earnings in a year are also members of the plan.
I understand that the Pension Services have asked for a legal opinion on the eligibility of part-time and casual employees for pension plan coverage. Could you tell me about the status of this issue, and why shouldn't casual employees working at least 700 hours a year be eligible for pension plan coverage?
MR. FAGE: I guess that question would be probably more appropriately put to the minister responsible for the Public Service Superannuation Act and here in Nova Scotia that is the Minister of Finance, who administers that Act.
MR. GOSSE: I just thought that you, as the Minister of Human Resources, might have an answer.
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Okay, I am just wondering, I remember last year when I was here, I think the average age was about 46 for Public Service sector employees. There is a possibility of elimination of about 1700 Civil Service jobs through retirement over the next five years. I think it was last year that I heard that comment. There will be thousands of vacancies in the Public Service sector over the next few years. I was just wondering, Mr. Minister, could you tell me what the expected retirements over the next few years are, at this juncture, and what is the average of our public servants as of now?
MR. FAGE: Currently, the categories on average age are close to what you have described there. Nearly 76 per cent of the Civil Service workforce are over the age of 40 and the average age is 46 years. The other category, senior management levels, the level is over 50 there, so I think we can certainly make a strong assumption that the largest number of these people retire around the age of 60, given the years that they already have now.
MR. GOSSE: What strategies are the department pursuing to deal with these upcoming retirements?
MR. FAGE: Well, I think there are a number of strategies which are key to the entire department. Those are things dealing with training, HR management training through the universities. There is a diversity agenda that we signed on to and support very strongly. There is the skills agenda that the department has signed on to very strongly. Certainly we think that a career in the Civil Service or Public Service of the Province of Nova Scotia is a good career. We hope people will be looking to be recruited by different government departments.
MR. GOSSE: Is there any strategy out there for students thinking about careers in the Public Service, like when students are making critical career decisions, is there any strategy out there recruiting students in that aspect?
MR. FAGE: I guess there are a number of examples but a couple are under a program we have called Career Starts, where university graduates - we would sponsor 16 of those to start with the Public Service here, as well as . . .
MR. GOSSE: It went from eight to 16.
MR. FAGE: Yes, it went from eight to 16 last year.
MR. GOSSE: So there is no increase in this year's, we're half of 16.
MR. FAGE: The other half of that is - under the Career Starts Program are quite a number of summer students employed each year by different government departments to introduce them to the Public Service of Nova Scotia and offer them - not only for that summer employment which allows them an opportunity to see what the Public Service is
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like, what it is like serving the public of Nova Scotia, but a good career initiative for them too, that they can pursue once they've finished university or their post-secondary education.
MR. GOSSE: Is there any chance of getting - I remember last year I asked this - an update on the levels of African-Nova Scotian and Aboriginal employment in the Public Service sector?
MR. FAGE: As of April 2006, the total of Aboriginal, African-Nova Scotian and other visible racial and other persons of disability in the Public Service, there are 839 out of a total Public Service of 10,967. On a percentage basis, that would be 7.7 per cent.
MR. GOSSE: Has that risen since last year?
MR. FAGE: The numbers being supplied to me is that this past year's hirings, 8.2 per cent of people hired into the Public Service have indicated they would have one of the aforementioned designations that I had given. That's an increase over last year of 7.6 per cent.
The other thing I might add would be a positive review for everybody is our diversity study. We will be in a position to publish that in several weeks as well. It will contain a lot of good facts and figures that would answer many of those questions. We will supply that to you shortly.
MR. GOSSE: I'm glad you asked me about diversity. Is it true the Office of African-Nova Scotian Affairs are the only ones who have implemented a strategy on diversity management? What other government departments have this?
MR. FAGE: I'm very pleased to report that last year all 29 government departments filed an action plan. Again, this year, those plans - all 29 - have been filed with action plans and progress reports to increase diversity.
MR. GOSSE: Also, while we're on that topic, what is the status of the satellite office of African-Nova Scotian affairs in Cape Breton?
MR. FAGE: I don't have that information. Maybe when the minister responsible does his estimates later today, that might be the appropriate place to ask that question.
MR. GOSSE: Okay. Thank you. I think that's it for myself and I thank the minister and his staff. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Kings West.
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MR. LEO GLAVINE: Mr. Chairman, I certainly appreciate the opportunity to ask a few questions of the minister. A couple of specific budget questions first. On Page 15.8 of the Supplementary Detail, Leadership and Coordination has increased by $230,900. What is contributing to this increase?
MR. FAGE: That would be the business transformation group, and specifically would be the implementation of the SAP program for the department and the issues related to that.
MR. GLAVINE: On Page 15.8, Strategic Unit Resource Management is increasing by $192,000. Could the minister please outline what additional projects will be undertaken in this line item to account for the increase?
MR. FAGE: That's a transfer. We've always had the authority for the Workplace Wellness Program. Health Promotion - we transferred the dollars there a year ago and they administered the program. The administration of the program is returning to where the authority is, and that's our department. That would be those dollars there.
MR. GLAVINE: I'm wondering, and I just have a few general questions here, how many collective agreements in the Public Service are up for negotiation this fiscal year? When do the agreements expire? And you'll see why I'm asking this in a moment, with the second and third questions there.
MR. FAGE: I'm informed that there are actually three that would be involved. The one I spoke about earlier with one of the previous interveners, the Crown Attorneys, and two of the Civil Service agreements.
[4:45 p.m.]
MR. GLAVINE: I note that when you visit the Web site for the Public Service Commission and you review job opportunities, the vast majority of the postings are limited first to those currently employed in the Public Service or are members of the NSGEU. I certainly recognize and adhere to the collective agreements and have the utmost respect for the professional Civil Service, but I often wonder how government is able to attract and retain highly qualified applicants when, oftentimes, it appears to those outside looking in that they don't have a chance to even be considered. From a purely statistical point of view, I'm wondering how many positions were posted in 2005, even a ballpark figure in that area?
MR. FAGE: I don't have that information available at my fingertips right now, but I certainly undertake to provide that information to you.
MR. GLAVINE: I was wondering how many of those postings were open to those currently employed in the Public Service or are members of the NSGEU? That's where I was going with that.
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MR. FAGE: As you would be aware, part of many collective agreements is that if a position becomes available, for whatever reason, that someone already involved as a member of the collective agreement would have the first opportunity if they chose to fill that position before we would go outside. Those are standard terms of virtually every collective agreement.
MR. GLAVINE: Are there, in fact, some of those positions filled by people from outside the Public Service? I mean, is there some maneuverability and some means of getting, you know, more new and highly qualified people into those positions?
MR. FAGE: Yes, there's no question many of those positions are filled from people outside the collective agreements. Certainly when you review the numbers of the average age for employees, the number of people who are eligible for retirement, and specifically that issue, there are going to be many opportunities in the Public Service here in the province. One of the Public Service's challenges, and I think collectively all the governments' challenges, is to continue to put forward training programs ensuring that the benefits are there that highly skilled and trained Nova Scotians will choose the Public Service as a worthwhile and fulfilling career. That's going to be I think a challenge for many of us as we go forward. The baby boomers are starting to get white hair.
MR. GLAVINE: That's sort of where I was going and I know the NDP colleague opposite brought up this whole question. It's one that has come up in the Human Resources Standing Committee as well, as I'm sure your staff is aware. I'm just wondering, you know, in addition to what you did outline to the member, is there any thought about possible mentoring programs and those areas. I mean, I think of how many qualified people will go out of the system in the next five to 10 years. Lots of times, it's institutional knowledge, it's details around operational procedures. I'm just wondering if, in fact, there is something along those lines to have, especially university graduates, you know, highly capable, highly qualified, young Nova Scotians who could stay in the province and be attracted to those jobs. So I'm wondering about the process of attracting them there, and then receiving some of that mentoring that I think can, in fact, get them to subscribe to a career in the Public Service?
MR. FAGE: There's certainly a number of programs, as I spoke of earlier. We're encouraging university graduates with training programs involved in the departments, certainly a large contingent of summer students who are offered the opportunity to see what the Civil Service or Public Service is about and the opportunities there. There's also the career development program which is on the Web site which would show some of the qualities and opportunities for somebody, if they chose to enter into a career of Public Service. As well on the Web site, there is a guide for employers, departments throughout government, to participate in contributing to both of those programs. I think certainly over the last several years, when you look at the number of initiatives launched and completed by the Public Service Commission, many of those lead to the quality of the job, the quality of the opportunity and the assurance of a good workplace, as well as that it's a fair and equal
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employer. Another program that is very exciting and certainly provides opportunity and enthusiasm is a new program that public servants have started themselves and the program is called, Government X and it's a group of young public servants, under the age of 35, who have formed their own organization within the Public Service, to promote the opportunities of a career in the Public Service, to their colleagues and other young graduates of universities and post-secondary learning and, certainly, that type of mentoring goes a long way too.
MR. GLAVINE: Thank you, Mr. Minister. I want to move on to the topic of senior bonuses and ask a few questions around this. Earlier this year the government announced bonuses for the deputy ministers and assistant deputy ministers, CEOs, among others, and the range that was provided was from $4,100 to $17,000. Now the Premier justified the bonuses at the time by telling Nova Scotians to take a look at their responsibilities coupled with what the private sector would pay the individuals with similar duties. Now, is it your department alone that has assigned the bonus amount provided to the deputy ministers and assistant deputy ministers or is it done at the discretion of the minister in the various departments?
MR. FAGE: The Public Service Commission would administratively be responsible for pay for performance for managers in the Public Service. Bonuses for deputies would be administered out of Treasury and Policy Board, with support from the Premier's Office.
MR. GLAVINE : Is there a strict set of guidelines for this and could you reference a couple of those guidelines?
MR. FAGE: Again, TPW are the ones to properly question for bonuses for deputies. The Public Service Commission is not responsible for the program. We would be responsible for the pay-per-performance program that would look at managers in government and assign percentage bonuses to those management MCP positions. Not deputies though.
MR. GLAVINE: At the time when these were announced this year and questions surrounding them, the Premier of the day said the bonuses recognize what an individual performing similar responsibilities in the private sector would be paid. If that's the case, why wouldn't you just provide a salary that is more reflective of their duties and responsibilities, and skip the bonus structure all together, which on many accounts, obviously, can be problematic to Nova Scotians?
MR. FAGE: Again, honourable member, I don't want to confuse you. I want to be perfectly clear, the issues that I would be discussing are the pay-for-performance for managers in the Civil Service. In no way is it linked to deputy ministers. That's the responsibility and purview of the Treasury and Policy Board, but for pay-for-performance for managers, that is linked to the department's business plan and the objectives of the department to move all government forward. If they're meeting objectives of that business plan and the direction then they would be eligible for pay-for-performance, the middle
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managers and those would be the people we would be responsible for at the Public Service Commission.
MR. GLAVINE: So, for those particular bonuses, can we see a set of guidelines, at least that there is something in place that says, you know, the job performance does warrant this bonus?
MR. FAGE: Probably the easiest way - I don't have a hard copy here with me - but if you check the Public Service Commission's Web site, the guidelines and terms of the pay-for-performance program and strategic management program, the details are all there, if you want to look at the Web site.
MR. GLAVINE: My last topic area is Conserve Nova Scotia, and I think all Nova Scotians would like to know more about it, from what I hear. On June 24th, the Premier appointed Heather Foley-Melvin to the CAO of Conserve Nova Scotia, an as-yet-to-be created Crown Corporation on energy conservation. Now many Nova Scotians are obviously in wonderment about this particular agency, so given that your department is responsible for the Public Service Commission, would you be able to table a job description for this position?
[5:00 p.m.]
MR. FAGE: Again, the Public Service Commission is responsible for people involved in the Public Service in general. The particulars, as I understand, of Ms. Melvin's job responsibility for Conserve Nova Scotia, are ones with her experience of setting up the agency and then once it's established, being a director of that this Fall.
MR. GLAVINE: So, to be very clear now, which minister would I contact to get a job description for the CAO position of Conserve Nova Scotia?
MR. FAGE: It's my understanding that Conserve Nova Scotia is under an agency under the auspices of the Department of Energy and that is where inquiries should be directed.
MR. GLAVINE: Okay, that's fine. I'll work through Energy, to get that kind of information because there are certainly many questions around that appointment, which Nova Scotians do want answers to, so I'll use Question Period to discern those questions. Thank you, Mr. Minister.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cape Breton Nova. The time is 5:01 p.m.
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MR. GORDON GOSSE: Just one short snapper, I guess, before we call it a day. Last year in Estimates, I asked questions about the casual workers in the sheriff's department. At that time, I think it was a 2 to 1 ratio, casuals to permanent employees. I think the government committed last year to create eight new permanent positions within the sheriff's department. I was just wondering if these positions were created or if there's any more permanent positions and how many, or when?
MR. FAGE: My understanding is that new appointments were made, but the jurisdiction is, the Department of Justice will certainly undertake to ascertain from them how many employees they did hire. They wouldn't appear on our books anywhere, but we could certainly inquire with Justice for you.
MR. GOSSE: I just thought it was before this committee last year that I asked this question and the casual workers were here - it wasn't the Justice Department and I asked the minister last year.
MR. FAGE: We'll undertake to get that information for you.
MR. GOSSE: I thank you very much. Also, I'm just wondering about Occupational Health and Safety in the Public Service Commission. Social workers and health care workers are more likely to be injured on the job than other workers in the province - to experience violence in the workplace. I'm just wondering does the government, the minister and his department have any new strategy towards workplace violence?
MR. FAGE: My understanding is there has been an interdepartmental committee forum that deals with those issues of safety and well-being, and would be responsible for that. I can get you an update on that.
MR. GOSSE: Is there a name of that committee. An update would be great, I would appreciate that.
MR. FAGE: My understanding is there's a number of departments involved in that committee and I can certainly get you an update for that.
MR. GOSSE: Well, thank you very much and that concludes my questions for the day. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I would call on the minister to give his closing statement and follow that by the reading of his resolution.
MR. FAGE: I have a short closing statement that I would like to read for purposes of the record. Mr. Chairman, I would like to remind you and all members of this committee, once again, that nearly 11,000 people are working to revive the Public Service to Nova
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Scotians. That represents 11,000 careers that we support and must consider when developing human resources strategies and workplace initiatives in this province. As well, we need to be mindful not only of the demographic realities that we have spoken of earlier in our remarks and our questions, but also of the global labour market, the differences in value and expectation of the various generations in our workforces and the ever growing expectation amongst those that we serve. That's why I'm proud to hold up the government's corporate human resources plan as a clear path to ensuring we have a skilled, responsive, diverse and accountable Public Service today, and we will have one in the future.
Mr. Chairman, I brought a couple of the corporate Human Resources plans with me along for the benefit of members of the committee. I would be pleased to hand one out to each of the caucuses.
I would also - although there were no direct questions on the Emergency Measures Organization - compliment Craig MacLaughlan, Andy Lathem, and all the staff of EMO as well. They're very dedicated individuals who put a huge amount of work, energy and time into working closely with the citizens of this province, with other government departments within this government, with federal officials, with municipal officials, and a huge amount of volunteers - whether it be Search and Rescue, fire departments across this province - to put a first rate system of emergency preparedness in place in this province.
It's one we can be proud of, because they're leaders in the country. Other jurisdictions are coming to Nova Scotia to model their programs off what these individuals have achieved. I want to commend them as well.
I also want to commend Rick Nurse, firstly, who will be retiring later this year and I want to thank Rick on behalf of myself, of my colleagues and colleagues on all sides of the House, for your dedication, work and efforts in moving forward a professional Public Service here in this province during your tenure of the last number of years. Your efforts have been greatly appreciated and will not go unnoticed.
I also wanted to acknowledge the staff people of the Public Service Commission who sit beside me at the table here, behind me, as well as everyone who works across government with the Public Service Commission. They are professional, dedicated individuals who work very hard to ensure the best opportunities, equity, diversity and fairness occur for our Public Service here in this province. Collectively, between them and their colleagues who work in other government departments, Nova Scotians are well served by the Public Service here.
I, for one, would certainly want to be on the record as stating, being a senior member of the Legislature - I'll be a member, this November, my ninth anniversary of being in this House. That's five elections later, and there's only four other people who have served longer in the House than I. It's not a big career opportunity in this province, folks, but I want to
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clearly state that I receive many compliments on a weekly basis about the superior service supplied by staff from all departments in this province.
Many times when our public servants get a phone call, it's because there is a problem or people are searching for information or there is a crisis on the go. They respond unbelievably well. So, on behalf of my colleagues on all sides of the House, I want to extend that thanks to you for your hard work and your efforts.
Mr. Chairman, with those few remarks, I'm going to move the resolutions.
Resolution E14 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $1, 406,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray the expenses in respect of the Emergency Management Office of Nova Scotia, pursuant to the Estimate.
Resolution E15 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $25,114,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Executive Council, pursuant to the Estimate.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E14 and Resolution E15 carry?
Resolution E14 and E15 are carried.
We will be now move on to the Estimates of the Office of Immigration.
I call on the Minister of Immigration to make her opening remarks.
[5:15 p.m.]
HON. CAROLYN BOLIVAR-GETSON: Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased and proud to be here to present the proposed budgets for the Nova Scotia Office of Immigration, the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation and the Nova Scotia Senior Citizens' Secretariat. I would like to introduce the staff I have with me tonight: Elizabeth Mills, executive director, Office of Immigration; Mary Anna Jollymore, communications director, Office of Immigration; Rick Nurse, deputy minister, Office of Immigration; Clarence Guest, executive director, Justice CSU; Valerie White, executive director, Senior Citizens' Secretariat; Tanga Roche, financial advisor, Health CSU; Maureen O'Connell, Advisory Council on the Status of Women; Nicole Watkins-Campbell, Advisory Council on the Status of Women; and Greg Beaulieu, Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation. I will take a few moments to address each of the four areas of my responsibility.
Mr. Chairman, it is with great pleasure that I note some of the highlights of the work of our Immigration Office and its staff. It has been an eventful year - a good year. A lot has been accomplished, a lot more remains to be done. As a government, we want Nova Scotians
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to benefit from the many advantages that immigration and diversity can provide. The future growth of our economy, particularly the growth of our rural communities, depends upon it. As outlined in the Immigration Strategy, our aim is to increase the number of newcomers to our province, from 1,476, in 2003, to 3,600 arrivals by the year 2010. Coupled with that, it is our aim to encourage new immigrants to stay and thrive in our communities. To that end, we aim to increase our retention rate, from 40 per cent to 70 per cent, for the 2006-11 census period.
Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to report that the number of immigrants coming to the province through federal and provincial programs has increased by 8.5 per cent, over the last two years. The popularity of the Nova Scotia Nominee Program has also increased. In 2003, when the program was introduced, 23 certificates were issued. Last year, 303 certificates were issued to individuals wanting to make Nova Scotia their home.
Mr. Chairman, this is great news and a trend that I am confident will continue in the years ahead. In 2005, we celebrated a number of firsts in the area of immigration. We introduced the province's first immigration strategy. Legislation and regulations were developed to appoint Nova Scotia's first-ever minister. A budget and a full dedicated office were also established to address Nova Scotia's immigration issues.
We now share office space with Citizen and Immigration Canada, a move that is proving to be a positive one for staff at both levels of government and for our clients. Nova Scotia is the only province where immigrants can deal with federal and provincial matters in the same building. The opportunities immigration presents for our communities are why, in our first year of operation, we almost doubled the funding available to settlement organizations.
Helping newcomers adjust to their new lives in our province is a priority for our government. The proposed budget for 2006-07 is nearly $3.3 million, and includes even more support for the vital work settlement organizations do to help immigrants feel at home with us. When the new budget is approved, there will be an additional $439,000 available, for language training, settlement and integration services. This brings our direct funding for settlement services to almost $2 million. This, in effect, matches what the federal government provides.
Mr. Chairman, we continue to work at making our Nominee Program even more attractive to potential newcomers. Our government announced in May that the provincial portion of the application fees paid by immigrants under the Nominee Program would be eliminated. On June 30th, we took an even bolder step forward by announcing that all application and processing fees paid by immigrants would be eliminated in the skilled-workers stream, effective July 1st.
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Our success in the economic category means that we already have sufficient applications to reach our federal limit for the year 2006. As a result, effective July 1st, we are not accepting any new applications under the economic category for the balance of this calender year. This gives us a timely opportunity to review the category in an effort to ensure that it maximizes benefits to newcomers, and that all administrative fees associated with the stream are eliminated.
Mr. Chairman, as I indicated moments ago, a lot is accomplished yet a lot remains to be done. In 2006-07, we have a number of priorities, not the least of which is to conduct a formal evaluation of our Nominee Program. We want to ensure that we can continue to attract more and more newcomers to our province, and that these individuals choose to stay here, grow their families here, and build their dreams here. Part of that evaluation will include a redesign of the economic category, as noted moments ago.
Another priority in 2006 is our work with employers and labour to promote the benefits of immigration and to increase the number of immigrants being hired by local farms. This is of paramount importance to new immigrants who want to stay in our province. We will also focus our energies on promoting and strengthening the other categories in the program. Our skilled workers and community-identified streams, which can best address the needs of our rural areas. We will also introduce a family business category under the Nominee Program. Under this new stream, an individual who has a permanent job offer from a family member, who in turn owns a Nova Scotia business for at least two years, can apply for consideration. The new stream will give immigrants more opportunities to make Nova Scotia their home.
We will continue to negotiate with our federal colleagues on a new funding formula for immigration settlement. While the new money in the federal budget is a step forward, the province will continue to work with CIC to ensure that Nova Scotia receives its fair share, and that the settlement allocation model is amended to better reflect provincial needs. As more immigrants come to our province and as we increase provincial funding, we aim to see these services grow.
Another area, the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, works with government departments and community and women's organizations to advance equality, fairness and dignity for all women in Nova Scotia. They have been doing that for nearly 30 years. Much has changed over those 30 years and women have made progress towards equality but again, there is still more to be done. Although women hold nine of the 52 seats in the provincial Legislature, we need more women and more diverse women to fully represent the concerns and aspirations of all women in Nova Scotia.
The gap between male and female earnings continues to be significant. In 2003, women who worked full-time in Nova Scotia earned 69 cents for every dollar men earned.
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Single mothers are in an especially difficult financial position, with about half living below the low income cutoffs and women with disabilities face very high rates of unemployment.
Violence against girls and women in all its forms is still prevalent here in Nova Scotia. One in 12 women faces violence from an intimate partner, and Aboriginal women face violence at rates 3 times higher than non-Aboriginal women. Further, the high rate of sexual assault in Nova Scotia, combined with the low reporting, leaves women more vulnerable. These are among the most pressing issues women face in this province, and the Advisory Council has acted in all these areas. We promoted participation and inclusion of women in politics through our second, non-partisan campaign school, in partnership with Mount Saint Vincent University.
We also joined with the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities and the YWCA, with support from Service Nova Scotia, to learn what Nova Scotia women need to get involved in municipal politics. Immigrant women provided their views on an experience of settling and living in Nova Scotia in a round table organized with the Office of Immigration, the Atlantic Metropolis Centre of Excellence - Gender/Immigrant Women Domain, and the YMCA Centre for Immigrant Programs. We published a Guide for Girls, which covers career and personal life concerns for high school-aged girls. Near the end of the year we supported three Mi'kmaq women to attend Aboriginal Women and Violence "Building Healthy and Safe Families and Communities", a federal-provincial-territorial policy forum in Ottawa. Three major initiatives promoted women's economic equality. First, our Women, Work and Care policy forum brought together women and policy makers to discuss issues and action to harmonize work and family responsibilities. Second, we remained involved in Techsploration, bringing ideas about work and science, trades and technology to 100 more Grade 9 girls and their schools across Nova Scotia. Third, we submitted a brief on the labour standards portion of the Canada Labour Code.
In the area of violence against women, we published new sexual assault statistics for Nova Scotia, illustrating the high rate of sexual assault experienced and the low rate reported. We continued distributing Making Changes, a handbook for women in abusive relationships, and continued a gender perspective to the elder abuse strategy. We also worked with many community partners across the province on family violence, particularly on the silent witness program.
Our work in promoting health and well-being among women and their families, focused on managing the healthy balance research program. This study of women's paid work and unpaid care giving led to a forum in May to share the results. We also provided a gender-based analysis of HIV/AIDS strategies, in Nova Scotia.
Those are the highlights of the Advisory Council's accomplishments in 2005-06. The coming year will see us dedicated to the same themes, with some variation in the project work.
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Workshops in Cape Breton and the western part of the province will advance our goal to increase the numbers and diversity of women in public and political life. We will also continue our women and local government partnership. A Round Table on Women with Disabilities, held in April in Cumberland County, is the first of three. Later in the year we will report recommendations based on our findings.
We've already updated Money Matters, a statistical report that shows the financial situation of women in Nova Scotia. We will continue our involvement in Techsploration and Women Unlimited, a relatively new project to increase women's exposure and participation in occupations where they remain under represented, particularly in trades and technology. Two community organizations, Women for Economic Equality and The Hypatia Project, are leading this initiative. Other government partners include the Departments of Education and Community Services, HRDC, Status of Women Canada and Agriculture Canada.
This Spring, 17 low-income women are enrolled at Bridgewater. The first intake of women at the Halifax Campus will take place this Fall. The Round Table on Women's Economic Security has formed a working group to follow up on planning steps identified by participants in last year's Women, Work and Care Conference. We have begun to disseminate highlights of the conference. Recommendations from the conference will come with further work.
The Advisory Council has and will continue to work with sector councils, industry and labour, and women's organizations, to encourage them and help them recruit women to their industries.
This year, the focus of our violence work will be the First Nations' women, African Nova Scotian women, immigrant women, women with disabilities and Acadian Women. As well, we're working with community, government and other partners, to assess the need for sexual assault services across this province. We're also adding to Making Changes, our handbook for women in abusive relationships, a chapter on friends and family can help. This year we are holding and evaluating two wellness clinics and will make recommendations to district health authorities and the Department of Health Promotion and Prevention, about the value of these services to women in rural areas.
Finally, we're winding up health balance research program this year, by meeting with policy decision makers to get the research results into the policy-making process. The information reported in the research results is rich with Nova Scotia data. It will be extremely useful for health-related decision making in the future. We're also developing a practical guide for care givers to help make their work a bit easier.
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[5:30 p.m.]
The Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation: In 2006-07, the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation will introduce a corporate marketing plan to help guide the organization in meeting its commitments under the five-year strategic plan. The marketing plan includes an analysis of the business, as it currently stands, and provides a blueprint of how the NSLC will reach the goals set out in this strategic plan.
Anticipating the variety of products consumers want and ensuring that these products are on NSLC shelves when customers need them is why we are investing considerable resources in the corporation's core business processes. In 2006-07, the NSLC will design and implement business processes and technologies to replace legacy systems. The corporation has chosen the SAP retail solution to move the organization forward in this regard.
This retail software was purchased from SAP, the largest world-wide provider of business software solutions. The system is used by many of the world's most successful retail businesses. Our point-of-sale system, which will also be replaced, will be tendered during the year and a new system chosen to work with the corporation's new business technologies. Ensuring the NSLC has access to good business intelligence will help to ensure the corporation makes good business decisions - decisions that reflect consumers' taste. By improving its decision-making capacity, the NSLC will offer an improved shopping experience for customers and increase financial return for shareholders.
The Senior Citizens' Secretariat: Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to speak today as Nova Scotia's new minister responsible for seniors. By creating this portfolio our government has reinforced the importance of addressing the diverse needs of this rapidly growing population, and our government has ensured that seniors now have a strong, dedicated voice around the Cabinet Table as well as a minister who can advance their priorities across government and across Nova Scotia. I am pleased to be that voice and I am honoured to be that minister.
I will take this opportunity to highlight new investments and speak to initiatives that through the hard work of the Public Service and ongoing support from our government continue to enhance the quality of life for Nova Scotia seniors. As a government we understand that seniors want to live as independently as possible for as long as possible in the comfort of their own homes. We further understand that there is a need for long-term care beds. To address both of these priorities, our government has developed a comprehensive continuing care framework to guide decision making for the next 10 years. Released in May, the continuing care strategy is the culmination of more than a year's work and reflects the input of more than 1,400 service providers, facility operators, health professionals and, more importantly, seniors themselves.
Guided by this strategy, our government is investing $16 million additional dollars this year to ensure seniors are getting the best possible care at the best possible time in the
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best possible place. Within the next four years, there will be another 800 long-term care beds with a total of 1,300 additional beds over the next 10 years. Changes to Health's long-term care placement policy will also benefit our Acadian and francophone communities. They do so by recognizing that French-speaking Nova Scotians have compelling circumstances that may otherwise lead to isolation due to language and cultural differences.
To provide the support seniors need to remain in their homes, our government has committed to expanding in-home services, like personal care and housekeeping, and continue support for the self-managed care program. We have committed to removing the HST from home energy costs beginning in January, and we are also providing significant new dollars to enhance seniors' housing through the Emergency Repair Program as well as millions more to provide affordable housing, much of which will benefit our seniors. Our government also continues to support the Property Tax Rebate Program and has committed to doubling the $400 rebate in future years.
As pharmaceutical costs continue to rise for all Nova Scotians and Canadians, our government continues to provide more dollars - an additional $12.9 million this fiscal year to keep Pharmacare affordable to seniors. Our government is also increasing the number of adult day centres to enable more seniors the opportunity to enjoy activities and to socialize with their friends. This will also provide more respite for their caregivers.
Mr. Chairman, it's also important to highlight initiatives that will improve treatment and prevention for diseases that are more prevalent among seniors. Our government is also providing significant support for cancer patients with a $10 million investment to expand cancer care services. As well, we are increasing dialysis services in the homes and expanding palliative care in communities.
Of vital importance to seniors who live independently is the comfort in knowing that they have emergency response whenever, wherever they need it. Recently announced upgrades to Nova Scotia's 911 system will ensure that these lifesaving services continue to operate efficiently using the most leading edge technology.
As the newly appointed chair of the Senior Citizens' Secretariat, I also want to take a few moments to highlight the important work that was undertaken by the secretariat last year. These initiatives are receiving continued support and additional funding in this year's budget. Last Fall, the secretariat released two important strategy documents that will have far-reaching implementations. These strategies need to be a continuing part of everyone's efforts to develop effective policies and programs that will allow Nova Scotia to adjust to an aging population. The Strategy for Positive Aging in Nova Scotia is the result of a lot of hard work by the Task Force on Aging. I want to give special thanks to Legion branches all across Nova Scotia which provided meeting space free of charge during an extensive consultation process that included 34 communities.
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In total, more than 1,000 Nova Scotians contributed to these discussions. As a result of their input, the Strategy for Positive Aging establishes a clear vision of Nova Scotia as an inclusive society of caring communities that supports the well-being of seniors and values their contributions. It sets out guiding principles that government staff and others can use to develop appropriate policies, programs and services for seniors and Nova Scotia's Strategy for Positive Aging, one of the first of its kind in Canada, identifies 190 actions aimed at achieving nine goals. It's a significant agenda but it's one that we must achieve within the next two decades in order to get ready for a near doubling of Nova Scotia's population of seniors.
This fiscal year our government will invest in the creation of a detailed action plan to support implementation of the strategy. Funding will also support efforts aimed at increasing awareness among our municipal counterparts - district health authorities, community health boards, regional development agencies and chambers of commerce. We want to encourage stakeholder use of the strategy as a guide for planning, so that together, we can maximize the opportunities to better meet the challenges of an aging population. The Strategy for Positive Aging notes that due to the dramatic increase in the number of baby boomers retiring and a declining birth rate with fewer young people entering the workforce, our employment growth is projected to drop to zero by 2010.
As the Minister of Immigration, I understand well the link between these two portfolios and how crucial it is for our economic growth that we continue to increase the number of immigrants we attract here and that newcomers stay here, but getting back to the work of the secretariat, we also have to ensure that Nova Scotia is a welcoming place for our aging population. This means we must deal with the frequently hidden problem of elder abuse. Last Fall, the secretariat released the Nova Scotia elder abuse prevention strategy. The strategy will be used to guide work with community organizations, seniors' groups and individual Nova Scotians to harness their collective strengths in order to create greater awareness of elder abuse. An important part of this is to ensure seniors themselves will be better equipped to recognize the problem and know where to get help.
The secretariat will be actively promoting the Elder Abuse Strategy through the fiscal year with additional support of $55,000. As well, the secretariat continues to lead the annual 50 Plus Expo, attracting more than 6,000 older Nova Scotians to an informative and entertaining weekend filled with activities, displays and performances. Of course, the secretariat undertakes with pride its ongoing work of ensuring Nova Scotia seniors have access to the information that they need. The annual Programs for Seniors directory continues to be a popular source of easy-to-read information. With 75,000 copies distributed each year, this comprehensive guide provides descriptions and contact information for all programs and services for seniors offered by all levels of government and not-for-profit organizations.
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Our government recognizes that meeting the needs of seniors today and tomorrow requires planning, creativity, decisiveness and, perhaps most importantly, leadership. With this in mind and aside from items listed in this year's budget, I also want to speak briefly about the important initiatives I hope to advance in the coming months. Filling the gap between independent living and long-term care requires a broader range of housing options than Nova Scotia currently offers. Our government will explore ways to work more closely with private sector and not-for-profit stakeholders to ensure they have the information and resources they need to pursue these opportunities. Considering that 14 towns have more than 20 per cent seniors, with two of them, Annapolis Royal and Mahone Bay, already around the 30 per cent mark, the need to focus on creating senior-friendly communities is vital. To this end, we will work closely with the World Health Organization to develop and expand exciting new initiatives that address the needs of aging populations at the grass roots level.
Mr. Chairman, meeting the needs of a diverse and rapidly growing seniors population brings its share of challenges but it also represents significant opportunities. Overcoming the challenges and maximizing the opportunities demands that we work better together across government departments and within Nova Scotia communities. As the minister responsible for seniors, I look forward to the months ahead. I look forward to implementing initiatives that will meet the needs and address the priorities of seniors in Nova Scotia. I look forward to planning for our future in a way that recognizes that the decisions we make today have a significant impact on whether or not we will be ready for tomorrow.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I will now address any questions.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Citadel.
MR. LEONARD PREYRA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Minister, for your very thorough and comprehensive report on the various portfolios you are responsible for. In just listening to the list of responsibilities you have, it surprises me that you are able to keep on top of all of them and do it so thoroughly and so carefully and I do appreciate your comments.
I am the Immigration Critic and I am going to confine my remarks to my responsibilities in that area. I did want to begin by telling you something about myself since this is my first appearance before this committee. My mother always used to say you should tell people where you are coming from and you will understand better why you are coming from there and where you are going. Particularly in this immigration field, I carry an awful lot of baggage so I may as well get it off my chest in my first committee meeting and then we can get on with the business of the committee itself.
My family emigrated to Canada in 1968. We were Catholic and we got caught up in the ethnic battles in Mumbaya, particularly between the Hindus and the Muslims, and we were essentially forced to leave. My mother wrote a letter to the Toronto Star, a reporter
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named Sidney Katz wrote it up, and said you know, here is this family that is desperate to get out, there are 10 of them living in one room and can anyone help them?
[5:45 p.m.]
A 14-year old Jewish boy in Toronto said you know, they are just like the Jews elsewhere and maybe we should try and get them out. So his mother decided to sponsor my father and he came and stayed here and worked for six months and eventually when he settled in, he was able to sponsor the eight children at the time and my mother. We came and settled in Toronto and essentially lived in Toronto under the care of Family and Children's Services in Toronto and the Basilian Fathers at the University of Toronto. Essentially we lived that way for a long time. At the time the Department of Immigration had hotel rooms in downtown Toronto and we lived at the Andorra Hotel. This was at the height of the hippie movement and there were drugs and free love and everything on the street, and here is my Catholic father who had just arrived fresh off the boat from India, living on Charles Street and Yonge, just when Rochdale was being turned into a commune. So that is the history I bring to this.
After that, two more children were born so I have nine brothers and sisters. My father had worked as a labour lawyer in India, on the Indian railways for about 20 years. When he came to Canada, he was not allowed to work here as a lawyer, even though he was a Commonwealth lawyer, and actually never did get his law degree because he started going to law school but, you know, with eight children it was very hard. He ended up working as a senior advisor to the Ontario Government on legal affairs. He worked in the field, but never did actually practice law or appear in court after that. My mother was a teacher, who also worked for about 20 years, and had to go back to school for four years even though she was really well qualified and we were all educated in the British system and we had attended Jesuit schools. So we had the kind of training that most ordinary Canadians would have had in that period.
Subsequent to that, you know, I have nine brothers and sisters, as I have said. My sister, Carmela, is a principal in the Metropolitan Toronto School Board and an advisor to the Ontario Government. My sister, Clare, is an advisor to the Bermudian Government and a psychologist there. My sister, Cecilia, is a professor at the University of Western Ontario and a goat farmer. I don't know how that got into the family, but there must be a farming gene somewhere. We did grow up in big cities all our life. My sister, Cathy, is a scientist in Ottawa. My brother, Jeff, is a senior television producer with a Women's Television Network. My brother, Ron, is a lawyer on Bay Street and works for a large insurance company. My brother, Al, this week was named as the best young lawyer in Ontario by the Ontario Bar Association. My brother, Colin, is a professor at the University of Toronto and a public health economist advising the Ontario Government. My brother, Ian, is a doctor at McMaster University.
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I mention this in part to give you some of my background, but also I think, on reflection and looking at my notes in preparing for this meeting, really it informs a lot of what I'm about to say today about our immigration policy and I think you'll see that as it comes along. I apologize for that and I think as we go along, I think we'll spend a lot of time together and you might find that much of what I have to say comes, you know, with the baggage I bring to this particular field, and maybe it was a mistake on the part of the Party to assign this to me since I have such a personal commitment to some of these issues.
I do want to get back to talking about your report which, as I said, is very thorough. It is a new agency, so it's a good time to be looking at the big picture and to ask, you know, what this agency is about and what immigration is about so that we can, at least in the early stages of this organization, set some broad principles and structures that will guide the making of immigration policy over the next few years. So what I've done then is organize my comments into three separate and distinct sections. One is the whole question of attracting and recruiting immigrants and how do we, you know, what do we bring? The other is the retention of immigrants. How do we keep them here once they get here? The third set of comments revolve around the administration of the policy itself, mostly just procedural things.
So let me start then with the attracting and recruitment side of it and I'll see how far I can go in terms of my time. I think we all agree that immigration is very important. We have a declining birth rate. We have a tremendous out-migration of native-born - if I can use that term - Nova Scotians who are leaving the province and retaining immigrants who are coming here. We know that immigration is vital to the economic, social and cultural well-being of Nova Scotia, both current and in the future.
So I wanted to start my questions around this recruitment and attraction theme by going back to some principles identified in the founding documents of this agency and start by talking about the idea of a responsible policy which is, I think, the first principle that's outlined there.
The approach essentially says that we have to focus on attracting individuals who are most likely to succeed here in Nova Scotia. I note that the Halifax Global report, which recently reported on parts of the immigration policy, says we have to recruit immigrants who are most likely to reside here. I'm surprised at the difference in the mandate, you know, here we have a first principle and I'm wondering, what is the first principle? Are we in this policy area trying to recruit individuals who are most likely to succeed which is what the strategy says or are we being directed, as the Halifax Global report says, which is what the provincial government told it, that we have to attract immigrants who are most likely to reside here and, to me, it seems to be an important distinction if this is going to be the first principle we have to identify what the goal is.
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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: As the strategy states, those individuals who are most likely to succeed here is the direction that we're heading in. Now having said that, making sure that they have strengths in the English language, so that they are able to adapt to our culture here and to make sure that the communities are in place to make them want to make Nova Scotia their home, is key in this.
MR. PREYRA: So in that vein then, if we assume that we are - and I agree that that should be a priority - how do we define success?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: How do we define success in our immigration strategy?
MR. PREYRA: No, you're saying that the focus is that we are going to attract and keep individuals who are most likely to succeed.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Those who are able to come to Nova Scotia, be able to enter into the labour force, be able to work and raise a family here and be able to adapt to our society, and want to make Nova Scotia their home, and those individuals will be the ones who will succeed.
MR. PREYRA: Okay, so the general policy then is to - there was a doctrine in the 1940s, I think, outlined by Mackenzie King, which talked about absorptive capacity and the ability of a state to absorb newcomers, whether they were for economics, social, cultural reasons and essentially a population policy that would re-enforce its existing policy. Is that generally the guide then?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Back to the absorptive capacity - when our immigration strategy was put in place, we definitely looked and realized that we had to have settlement services available to our new immigrants coming in. By doing that, we have definitely increased the budget in settlement services that we are providing and we will continue to do that, to make sure that the communities that they're coming into are representative of the communities that they will succeed in.
MR. PREYRA: Thank you, I will come back to settlement later on, but I think it is important at this stage to deal with these first principles because then it informs where we go looking for immigrants and what types of criteria we set out for attracting them and where our agents are located and all of that, and I would like to come back to that.
The second part of that responsible principle is that we should attract immigrants who are most likely to succeed but we are going to draft this policy in a way that doesn't forget Canada's humanitarian tradition, for helping those in need. Now I looked at the policy very carefully and commentaries on the policy, but I haven't seen any reference to that humanitarian side of it and I'm wondering if there is something. Now I know that most of this is handled through the federal government, so I'm not saying it's your responsibility, but
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since it was pointed out as a first principle, I'm wondering whether the agency has any desire to breathe some life into that humanitarian side of it? Certainly, all I've seen of immigration policy, so far, has been through the Nominee Program, which focuses on this notion of absorptive capacity and success, but nothing on the other side of it.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: CIC, which is Immigration Canada, they definitely do provide and look after the refugees who come in to Canada and, by doing that, they provide settlement funding for them, but we also provide settlement funding towards refugees also, out of those dollars.
MR. PREYRA: I know I should direct my remarks to you, Mr. Chairman, but on the attraction side, there is no policy in place for the province to target selected areas.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Our commitment is through the Nominee Program and that is not intended for refugees. It would be coming through the federal government and then we would assist in the settlement funding, if they were to set up in Nova Scotia.
MR. PREYRA: I know that during the Katrina sort of catastrophe and during the tsunami period, there was some talk of Nova Scotia taking the initiative for humanitarian reasons and I am wondering if there was any thought at that time to establish a humanitarian basis. I know later on, we talk about new streams, so the province is clearly able to introduce a new stream. I wonder if there is anything contemplated there, as introducing a new stream?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Nominee Program is not intended for refugees, unless they were able to prove that they did have a job offer here or that it met the family criteria that is set out in the Nominee Program, but it would be specific to the Nominee Program as the only eligibility that we have at this point in time.
MR. PREYRA: Apropos to that, let me move on to the second theme, then, Mr. Chairman. The second theme really talks about community-based policy. I was struck in reading the material that was given to me, that community is defined largely in terms of territory, in terms of physical space. I wonder if, in this field of immigration, we need to act on the other definitions of community that revolve around religion and ethnicity and the voluntary community and people from different social groups and different social mores? The kinds of people we are talking about - I understand the sense that there isn't a humanitarian track there but if we are to have that kind of track, it is most likely to come through the community-based route where we give these communities the opportunity to nominate and attract people, families, members of their groups in other parts of the world. Even though we might not have a humanitarian stream as such, it might provide these communities with an opportunity to bring people over.
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[6:00 p.m.]
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The nominations are done through the regional development authorities for that, but we have had partnerships with the francophone communities and with the multicultural community and also various religious organizations. So that community definitely is factored in, but as far as the regional development authorities are, the individuals that put forward . . .
MR. PREYRA: Well, they seem to be the primary source for these community-based nominations. Maybe it is more of a comment than a question, maybe the department ought to be thinking about broadening its definition of community and devoting a little bit more time to thinking about these other communities where you can get women who are in danger in other places or religious groups or ethnic groups.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The RDAs definitely could factor that into their community-based decisions when they were doing that. So the RDAs, when they are nominating, are looking to nominate based on community, they would factor all those things in that are representative of the communities they are serving.
MR. PREYRA: I would expect that they would, but their primary commitment seems to be to regional, the R says regional and sometimes those kinds of things channel advocacy and activity in a particular direction.
If I can move on to the third principle of fair and inclusive. This is always a challenge in immigration policy and, as I was suggesting earlier, how you define absorptive capacity really determines where you go looking for new immigrants and which immigrants can be accommodated in Nova Scotia. You know, we in Nova Scotia don't have a particularly good record in this area because we have only 5 per cent of Nova Scotians of our current population of foreign birth, unlike the rest of the country where I think about one-quarter of the population comes from elsewhere. So maybe we have a tremendously successful policy here because we haven't really gone beyond our traditional sources of immigration, perhaps, and maybe family reunification.
I was wondering in terms of fair and inclusive, whether or not we are - and I notice the policy in this category talks about gender-based analysis for example. I haven't seen any gender-based analysis coming out of the department but I know that it is mentioned several times. Has there been a gender-based - in fact I was surprised in the Halifax Global report where they talk about immigrants, their wives and their children. To me, it suggests a certain world view about who the head of the household is and the role of women. I wonder if there has been a gender-based analysis done of immigration and its particular impact on women? I am going to come back to this later when I talk about settlement and recruitment.
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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Over the past, there have been three immigrant round tables and sitting as Minister Responsible for the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, we have had a presence at that table, too, and those decisions and that information will definitely come back to the policy making tables when that happens, so that information definitely will be factored in, believe me.
MR. PREYRA: But there hasn't been a study yet as to the impact - the differential impact of immigration policy into the tracking policies, in terms of women. I am thinking here, probably the biggest issue on our international agenda at the moment is the war against terrorism, for example, and we know that war has had a tremendous impact on women and children on both sides - the group that is being displaced and the group that is in there to replace them. Many of those groups, those people who would want to leave, are women. I am wondering if there is an attempt to look at immigration policy and say, you know we need to think about these other groups and I would suspect they are more likely to settle here.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Well, regardless of what policy decisions we are making, gender-based analysis is always a part of that. Having said that, we definitely are looking at the immigration strategy and so on, that definitely needs to be factored in and the decisions that came back from the round table will. As I said, as Minister for the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, we will continue to advance to make sure that gender-based analysis is part of all policy making within government.
MR. PREYRA: I was going to ask this question later, but maybe I will ask it here. It relates to the removal of systemic barriers to immigration. We know that the Cornwallis contract has been cancelled and the agency is going to move more to an in-house process of managing the recruitment of immigrants. Do you have any sense at this point as to how you are going to go abroad to recruit people? Where will your agents be? What kinds of guidelines will there be? What reporting relations - those kinds of things. Clearly, you are going to have to replace that system in some way. I am wondering if, in respect to the fair and inclusive principles you set out, whether or not the organization of the new agency - I mean the agency that will be created over the next few months - is going to respond to that principle?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess three of the categories for the Nominee Program are not agent-driven. When we look at the skilled worker category, the community and the family categories are not agent-driven at all. We are looking at a redesign of the economic category, is what we are looking at. The contract expired on June 30th, it ran out on June 30th.
MR. PREYRA: The Cornwallis contract had a pretty significant marketing component to it that required it to be abroad in these places to let people know that these places are available. I'm surprised that with the skilled worker stream - if you can call it a stream - where it has been used to recruit doctors and nurses, for example, that there
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wouldn't be a foreign component and a foreign agent, or marketing strategy, and that it be done from Halifax.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess employers themselves and district health authorities have their own staff within to recruit outside and they use the skilled worker category to do this.
MR. PREYRA: But the principle, Mr. Chairman, calls for a fair and inclusive policy, and essentially the systemic barrier may be that we don't get a fair and inclusive policy because it would be left up to the regional development authorities and other employers to recruit whoever they wanted.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It also could be up to the individuals wanting to come into Canada to search out jobs on their own, also.
MR. PREYRA: But, again, that would require a place for them to make contact with the office.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Nominee Program when it was originally set up was set up to meet the labour market needs and the economic needs of the province and, in so doing, that is why the four streams were put in place. There will be a complete review of the economic and redesign to make sure that we are meeting those needs.
MR. PREYRA: Sorry, what are the four streams? I should know this, but . . .
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Skilled worker, community, family and economic.
MR. PREYRA: I'm sorry, family?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Family is a new stream . . .
MR. PREYRA: So that was one of the new streams?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: . . . that will be added.
MR. PREYRA: I thought under that stream there were two others, then there should be six, shouldn't there, international, post-secondary students and entrepreneur?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Those two other categories have not been introduced yet. We definitely will be looking at those other two categories.
MR. PREYRA: My general comment here, then, is that we're essentially leaving it to the immigration market to determine whether the policy is going to be fair and inclusive,
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and essentially will reinforce our current situation. Given the fact that our current situation is not good, I'm wondering how we go beyond? When I say not good, I mean, you know, we have 1 per cent of people being attracted here, we only keep 40 per cent of those, we have a problem with skilled workers, we have a declining birth rate, et cetera. The policy itself, if we leave it up to employers to drive it, essentially we'll end up reinforcing a bad situation. So in this case absorptive capacity doesn't help us.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess in order for the nominees to be successful, we have to guarantee that they have jobs. When you look at the skilled worker market in Nova Scotia, we're definitely searching for these individuals and will continue to do that. Part of the strategy, and part of my mandate, is to increase the rate from 40 per cent to 70 per cent, and we definitely will be doing what it takes to make sure that happens.
MR. PREYRA: If I can just move on to the last core principle, and that's accountability, again like success, there doesn't seem to be any sense of how this policy is going to be held accountable. For example, we just referred to moving from 40 per cent to 70 per cent of our target and retention. I'll come to this later, but how do we know that you have the resources to do that in the department? How do we measure the success of your recruitment or retention given that, you know, we haven't met past targets. It's always nice to say we're going to double the number we take in, we're going to move it from 40 per cent to 70 per cent of our retention, but nowhere in this policy does it say how you're going to do it and I'm wondering if there is a supplemental strategy that hasn't been introduced that identifies specific measures that will be taken to accomplish those goals?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess I'm not aware of the past targets that you're referring to that we haven't met. Our goal is to move from 40 per cent to 70 per cent.
MR. PREYRA: Are you saying that the goal previously was not to retain only 40 per cent of our immigrants?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We didn't have an immigration strategy at that point. We realize that the retention rate is 40 per cent, and we're saying that the goal is 70 per cent, and that's what we'll be working towards.
MR. PREYRA: My question is, what do you have in place for accomplishing that goal? What is it that you're going to do differently now? Clearly, the cancellation of the Cornwallis contract is part of the strategy, to say that didn't work and now we're going to do something else. You must redouble your efforts to double that retention rate.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Looking at the difference in budget for our settlement grants that we have in place to communities will definitely help us in retaining these immigrants to our communities. The settlement funding has increased this year - the budget is up $662,000, of which there's $439,000 going into settlement programs. This is money
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directly available to the RDAs and other community-based organizations to see to it that we are meeting the needs of our immigrant population and that retention is maintained.
MR. PREYRA: I would like to go to those figures, because I'm very confused about them. I look at the estimates for 2005-06, and I see your estimate here for 2005-06 is $2,628,000, and now the forecast has been reduced to $2,181,000. That's about $0.5 million in shortfall. How did that occur?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That was based on a full year of operation, and we weren't fully up and running last year. That's where the difference in dollars is coming from.
MR. PREYRA: I also looked at the Budget Address, and it says, we will increase funding for the Office of Immigration by $700,000 to $3.3 million. I can understand that part of it, but it also goes on to say, we will also do more to ensure immigrants feel welcome and supported, an additional $639,000 will be available for language training, settlement and integration services. I think those are the numbers you just referred to in your last response. I don't see that money in these estimates. That number should be higher, shouldn't it? That should be closer to $4 million in the 2006-07 estimate.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'm not sure of those figures you quoted. Could you quote those again? Could you just repeat what you said?
[6:15 p.m.]
The $639,000 that you're referring to is the $439,000 that I just referred to, which is made up of enhanced integration and settlement programming for $180,000, enhanced language training for adults of $120,000, and developmental grants for $139,000. Also part of that $639,000 there was English as a second language, which was provided to the Department of Education for P-12, $200,000 of that.
MR. PREYRA: My point is, though, if we add $2,628,000, plus $700,000, plus $639,000, we should get a figure that's larger than $3,290,000.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The $639,000 that you're quoting is the total amount that was going into settlement, but $200,000 of that is coming from the Department of Education's budget, not from this budget. You need to subtract. So it's only the $439,000 added to the amount of $2,628,000.
MR. PREYRA: So, effectively, there may be a bit of double-counting here. The Department of Education is saying somewhere else that it, too, is spending an additional $400,000 somewhere else. Is that what you're saying?
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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Department of Education is spending an additional $200,000 on English as a second language in the P-12 schools on top, and I can give you a better breakdown of that.
MR. PREYRA: No, that's all right, Madam Minister. I'm just saying that there might be some double accounting going on here in that the monies from other departments are being rolled in and being treated as their part of this agency here.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess that was a generic statement made that there was $639,000 more going into settlement funding this year and that is a correct statement; $200,000 is coming from the Department of Education; $439,000 is coming from the Office of Immigration. It's not double reporting. It's not showing up in my budget. It's showing up the $200,000 in Department of Education. You're referring to the Speech from the Throne where it was lumped together for that, but it definitely is all going to immigrants.
MR. PREYRA: I had some questions about the three new streams and I understand that only one of them is really flowing at the moment. A question about the international post-secondary students, now, I see here in terms of settlement that you have a connection between the Department of Education and the Office of Immigration. Is there a connection on post-secondary education on these issues, because it seems to me that in post-secondary education we're increasing tuition fees for foreign students. There's essentially no cap on it. We know that this year there has been quite a dramatic decline in the number of foreign students coming to Canada. I'm wondering if the two sides talk to each other, whether the Department of Immigration is saying we're going to create this new stream and attract international post-secondary students and this is going to be a new stream that will bring more into our province and the Department of Education is essentially saying we're going to increase tuition fees and set a pretty high barrier, that I'm wondering if maybe the two departments should talk to each other to come up with a policy that's a little more consistent?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: EduNova is an organization that works to recruit international students and we work with CIC to make sure that they're able to work here in the province so that after they complete their years of study, then they could enter into the Nominee Program as a skilled worker and be a lot more likely to have those retention rates that we referred to earlier.
MR. PREYRA: I should also say - and maybe this is again an instance of where my baggage comes in - I do find it disconcerting, to say the least, that we would be trying to recruit these international students as immigrants given that so many of them represent the best hope for the countries that they're coming from and we recruit them, you know, and they come with monies that are provided by development agencies and agencies in their home countries on the assumption that they will come back home and improve their societies there. I'm wondering if it's maybe somewhat immoral to target this group once they come here?
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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We do not accept any students that are here who are sponsored by their country's government for their tuition into the program.
MR. PREYRA: But that doesn't prevent them from applying, does it? I mean essentially the policy says that once they have arrived here, they've succeeded here, they've worked here, now they may have their children here, but essentially we're saying that they've proven their capacity to live here and, in fact, the strategy says we should. I didn't see an exemption in there that said, you know, that particular streams of students who get grants from particular agencies are not allowed.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'm told that it is part of the strategy that if they are sent here by their government to attend school here, they would not be accepted into the program.
MR. PREYRA: I'm glad to hear that because I do think that we need to think about our international obligations as well in these cases. You had earlier, Madam Minister, referred to the family business stream and essentially it's far more narrowly defined than I had originally thought. If I understand this correctly, the family that's sponsoring has to have a business and in that business they have to use that business to nominate some family member in a faraway country and then offer that family member a job in that business, in effect guaranteeing their financial security. I'm wondering if that is the right understanding of that family business stream?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, it is. That is correct.
MR. PREYRA: Essentially, the policy is very different from other provinces, I think all other provinces, where one can nominate a family member and guarantee that they will support them financially. So it's not really a family nomination stream, the focus is on business.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The focus is on the individual coming here, having a job when they arrive. The category that you're referring to in other provinces is a federal category, it's not a provincial category.
MR. PREYRA: Well, I may misunderstand this, but the other provinces have nominee streams where family members can nominate . . .
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That would be federal.
MR. PREYRA: What is the rationale for creating this particular stream, given that we have economic nominees, given that we have the entrepreneur stream that is not yet running, that's aimed at small business? What is it that this family stream is going to bring to the immigration portfolio that we don't already have in our programs?
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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: When we developed the immigration strategy, we went out for consultation. In doing so, we met with the immigrant population, and they told us that they would like to be able to bring family members here. In order to retain these individuals in our province, people would like to have their family with them. That's what makes it a lot easier to do and to accomplish.
MR. PREYRA: Maybe I misunderstand this, but I did grow up in the immigrant community and my sense is that people's first priority is to family reunification. Generally family reunification is understood, as I want to bring my brother or my sister or my parent down here, and they don't say, I want to hire my brother to sell pitas.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess the program that you're referring, the family reunification, is a federal system, again. This is a provincial program that we are talking about introducing, where under this stream, an individual who has a permanent job offer from a family member, and they own a business here for at least two years, can apply for consideration.
MR. PREYRA: I'm wondering if the office has done any study of what the pool of people available in that category would be, and what kind of success rate you've had in that area? I know from past experience most of these businesses that have been set up have been shells that have been designed to bring particular people in. I'm wondering if maybe it's a policy that's open to misuse?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We do have different communities here that have identified to us that they would like to have this option to be able to bring family members here. They are successful business owners in our communities, and this is one way. I know I've been approached on several occasions, as a member sitting in the House, as to how this would happen. I'm very pleased to see that we are moving forward with a family-driven component in our Nominee Program.
MR. PREYRA: If I can move to a category we haven't talked about, and really that's the most problematic one for us - always has been - and that's the Economic Nominee Program. We really welcome the minister's decision to eliminate fees in the other two categories, the traditional categories, and we appreciate the fact that you are reviewing this. Do you have any sense of when this decision will be made, and whether there are timelines, and a policy in place for that? Clearly the Halifax Global Report says it's not working. I'm wondering if there is something in the works in that area?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The fee review and the expiration of the Cornwallis contract gave us a timely opportunity to look at the system to see how it is working, and having met our targets for the 2006 year, again, gave us the opportunity to look at the economic category and redesign to see what we can do to eliminate as many fees as possible, and with hopes to eliminate all fees associated with the economic stream.
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MR. PREYRA: Now the Halifax Global Report and almost everyone on the outside government who has looked at this economic nominee stream has been pretty scathing in its criticism of it. Essentially, these potential immigrants pay $130,000 and they get essentially a fast track into Canada. The Halifax Global Report, for example, says that this was the price of admission, $130,000, into Canada and that the economic stream is the cheapest, fastest and best door into Canada, and the Halifax Global Report looks at it and says that there's absolutely no benefit or very little benefit to the potential immigrant themselves and those immigrants who come in under that stream are also the most likely ones to leave.
It's pretty clear from what we've seen from the Halifax Global review and other commentaries on it, that the Economic Nominee Program is a real failure if we define success in terms of attracting people who are more likely to stay here.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, we're looking at the Nominee Program. The Nominee Program has been a very successful program. We will continue to work on those strengths. We've eliminated all the provincial portion of the fees associated with the Nominee Program. We've recently eliminated the $5,000 fee that was associated with the skilled worker category and we've committed to doing a redesign of the economic category, to see to it that it is meeting our needs, here in the province.
[6:30 p.m.]
MR. PREYRA: Thank you. I'm surprised that the minister would describe this as a successful program, given that it's being eliminated and given that the marketing agency that handled the contract has had the contract cancelled. I admire and respect the agency for reviewing its policies and that's what happens in the first years of any policy, you look at something, you decide it didn't work. Everything else we've seen, including this own assessment of the policy, says it didn't work and it wasn't working and presumably that was the rationale used for eliminating it.
I did want to flag this idea of essentially selling an admission ticket to Canada for $130,000, which is clearly what it has become, if it has not already, and I would also question the type of immigrant we would get if we are defining success in terms of a likelihood to stay here and perhaps this is where my baggage comes into it again. We are essentially opening Canada up to the international market for entrepreneurs and these people, as we know, are wealthy, but they're not particularly loyal to any particular country. They're really looking for a passport of convenience and they will move from one place to the other, wherever the market takes them.
Again, this is my baggage and maybe I'm not being fair to these immigrants, but I would think that part of the reason why we have this problem with retention is because we're casting our net in a pool of migratory fish.
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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I would like to go back to a point that you made about being eliminated. The economic stream is not being eliminated, it's being redesigned. There will be an economic component to the Nominee Program. Right now we have met our targets. We will continue to evaluate and review. It's under further review and that is what the report did state. We definitely need more skilled workers, particularly in our rural areas, to meet the business needs and fuel economic growth here in the province. This is a category that is through the skilled workers and through the economic stream, we have been able to do that, and we will continue to do that. There are some very highly educated individuals coming to this province and I believe that, yes, we have to increase the retention rates that we have here in the province and we have said that we would do that in our immigration strategy with the target from 40 per cent to 70 per cent. That is the goal of this department and we'll continue to work on that.
MR. PREYRA: I'm fast running out of time, Mr. Chairman, and I'll move on to the third area and that's the administration of the policy itself. One of the key assumptions of the nominee stream itself, that it would have a zero cost of administration to be borne by the taxpayer. I'm wondering now that you have cancelled the Cornwallis contract and you've essentially eliminated the fees attached to that for those two categories, what are going to be the implications for the taxpayer, and I know that when we talked about the estimates, most of the new money that was coming in was supposedly dedicated to these other fields, where is the new money for administration going to come from?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, the economic category was not cancelled, it expired on June 30th. At this point in time, we have met our targets so that there is not any anticipated cost with doing that. We will redeploy some of our existing staff to make sure that we're meeting the needs of those in the system.
MR. PREYRA: Now, just as an aside, was there a cost-benefit analysis done of the Cornwallis contract before it was cancelled?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, there was no cost-benefit analysis done at that point in time. The contract was not renewed at that point in time, it expired, and there was no cost analysis done.
MR. PREYRA: So the decision then was based just on a hunch or something else?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The province and the company at that point in time could not come to a mutual agreement at that point in time. Again, it gave us the opportunity to review the economic component and to eliminate the fees and that is the direction that government is intending to take to eliminate the fees associated with the streams.
MR. PREYRA: If I can close on the Cornwallis contract, the general assumption that one can privatize the immigration function, as we seem to have in the Cornwallis contract,
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is that still something that the agency is contemplating, or is it something that the agency will go back to? It touches on that larger question we were talking about earlier about who defines the policy and how we go about defining it and whether or not something so fundamental to the economic and social well-being of Nova Scotia can be left to a private company?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, at this point in time we are looking at doing the work in-house.
MR. PREYRA: Just a follow-up on that. Is there any plan - given that we don't have Cornwallis hidden, not hidden, but embedded in that contract was the sense that immigration consultants would be hired through the Cornwallis contract, and in a way it was a cleaner process than the process we've seen in other provinces where immigrants are exploited by immigration consultants. I'm wondering if in this new vacuum that we have, while the department repositions itself, whether immigration consultants will come to play a more prominent role in bringing together potential skilled workers and family class immigrants, given that the department itself is not going to project abroad or establish a policy for attracting these new immigrants?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: At this point in time, I would think that it would be more community driven and skilled labour force driven based on that, so their need would be less prevalent in the upcoming months and years in the program.
MR. PREYRA: Some final administrative questions on settlement, particularly English as a second language. The minister talked earlier about the new money that was coming in and I had understood that that money, that $640,000 additional funding, was being allotted for immigration settlement, but in your itemization and breakdown of that cost, you suggested that a fraction of that would be used for settlement. In the original figures I have, that would be only $250 per new immigrant and I suspect that given your breakdown, it's probably $150 per new immigrant in the new budget. Given this figure, how is the minister going to move from a 40 per cent to a 70 per cent retention rate given that the figure is so low and that English as a second language support is already so weak in Nova Scotia? I mean, how are you going to do it on that budget?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess looking at the money that is allocated currently for English as a second language, currently or in the last fiscal year, the Department of Education put in $100,000 and the Office of Immigration put in $250,000 for a total of $350,000. This year the Department of Education is allocating an additional $200,000. So that increases from $350,000 to $550,000 for English as a second language which is a considerable amount of dollars put there. Now, as well, there is, as I mentioned earlier, the $439,000 which is being put in the budget for increases to settlement funding so that we can retain these individuals in our communities.
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MR. PREYRA: But you wouldn't be suggesting that that is what's going to drive our retention rate from 40 per cent to 70 per cent? It amounts to about $200 per new immigrant. I did want to move on, if you don't mind. We had talked about gender-based analysis. Now, I want to ask you a question about a recent study that talked about girls who immigrate to Nova Scotia and women, who find it much more difficult to settle in large part because women often work in the home, often they don't have as much of an opportunity to use education outside the home. I'm wondering if there has been a gender analysis or a gender stream that identifies the particular needs of immigrant women and children and what strategies you're developing to ensure that immigrant girls and women are helped to integrate properly?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: As I mentioned before, we have had several round tables with immigrant women. We will continue to have those round tables and take that information back. We've worked with the YMCA and MISA to make sure that we do have services in place and that we're working with our immigrant women to make sure that they are successful here in this province.
MR. PREYRA: I may come back, but I am running out of time. In general, my sense is - and again to go back to my own experience - it seems to me that our immigration policy is aimed at a particular stream and a particular group of people defined largely in terms of economic well-being, that there isn't really a humanitarian component to it, that there isn't a family reunification sense in the traditional sense of the term, there isn't an attempt to target specific communities and communities that are not in the mainstream here, and that the policy reinforces the situation that we already find unacceptable. In order to reach those targets, even to move from 40 per cent to 70 per cent, not to mention attracting more than one per cent of immigrants into Canada, we do need to look beyond these traditional definitions and we do need to look, in particular, at immigrants who will come here, who will succeed, and who will stay here.
I'm not convinced, really, that the attraction part of the strategy or the retention part of that strategy is really going to accomplish that goal and I'm wondering if the minister would revisit some of those key assumptions in terms of, you know, what constitutes a responsible policy, who constitutes the community and what's fair and inclusive? Given that this agency is just in its formative stages and we know that with a lot of agencies a kind of culture congeals within the agency and then 10 years down the road it becomes impossible to change it, I'm wondering if in these formative years the minister would reconsider some of these fundamental assumptions and, you know, direct our policy towards being more responsible, more community based, more inclusive and more accountable?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Mr. Chairman, there was a study carried out on the immigrant population who left this province and one of the key reasons they identified as leaving the province was they didn't have a job so they left to find employment. That's why the emphasis has been on the economic and the skilled categories to make sure we can retain
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these individuals here in the province by making sure they are successful and they do have a job here so they can work and raise a family here.
MR. PREYRA: I say it's ironic then, because most of our emphasis has been on recruiting these people. Presumably, they came here using economic criteria, including their ability to work here. So, it's disappointing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I will now turn it over to the Liberal caucus. The honourable member for Digby-Annapolis.
MR. STEPHEN MCNEIL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, minister, staff. I want to congratulate you on your election win and your appointment back into the Executive Council and congratulate you on being the first Minister of Seniors. I bet your children weren't pulling for that to be your portfolio. I bet they were probably looking at Health Promotion and Protection, wanting that to be Mom's role in this government. Maybe you could give me an indication of what you see as your vision for the Department of Seniors.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Thank you. In my opening remarks, I definitely highlighted a lot of the areas that I wanted to see this department moving in. Serving as a liaison for government departments to make sure that seniors' issues are brought to the forefront as they have been in the past with the secretariat, but more as a liaison so that the departments and the service providers are well informed on the needs of our senior population within the province before any decisions are made. That is key in moving this forward.
The long-term care strategy that was put in place in May definitely identified 1,300 long-term care beds in the province - 800 in the first four years. These are all issues that will definitely work on behalf of seniors and we'll continue to look at the francophone community and different communities to make sure they are well represented in the province.
MR. MCNEIL: I'd be remiss, since you mentioned long-term care beds. I don't know whether the Minister of Health has told you that 40 of those are earmarked for the constituency of Annapolis and in around Middleton. I'm just wondering if he had mentioned that to you yet or not. There's 40 of those 1,300 belong in the riding of Annapolis.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I know there are 800 long-term care beds that will be distributed out in the first four years and 1,300 beds in total.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Can I remind the member that it's not the estimates for the Department of Health.
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MR. MCNEIL: I know I have the minister in front of me who's going to be the liaison for seniors and the Minister of Health, just to remind him how important seniors are to the Province of Nova Scotia.
[6:45 p.m.]
Do you have any indication of how large a budget you're going to have?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The existing budget for the secretariat is approximately $1 million.
MR. MCNEIL: So, will your department be replacing the Senior Citizens' Secretariat and they will no longer exist?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We will be working with the secretariat to represent seniors and other providers across government.
MR. MCNEIL: But, if you're going to assume the $1 million budget the Senior Citizens' Secretariat has, where's the new vision, the new plan? What's new to this for seniors, other than a name?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Representation, definitely a voice around the Cabinet Table. I will bring those concerns back to government and act on seniors' behalf across this province to make sure their voice is heard at the decision-making table and that the statistics and all the information is there. I do not see the Minister of Seniors being that portfolio that will represent our service providers that are already currently doing that work and doing it quite well. But I will make sure the ministers responsible and the departments responsible, do understand the concerns that are out there from our aging population.
MR. MCNEIL: I guess, as the new minister of a department for seniors, which is coming on with lots of support and fanfare, how is your voice going to be any stronger at the Cabinet Table than the minister who was responsible for the Senior Citizens' Secretariat, who also sat at the Cabinet Table, if you are actually just assuming the budget that he had, or she had, you know, with the secretariat? What's new for seniors? What's the difference in service for them?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: A minister delegated strictly for seniors is definitely new. It was always a second portfolio for any minister in the past. It definitely will give them the voice at the table and I will be travelling around this province and listening to the concerns of individuals and making sure that those concerns are going back to the respective departments so that their concerns are heard.
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MR. MCNEIL: I notice, and I apologize for not being here at the beginning, but you're the minister responsible for a number of portfolios, just as the minister who is responsible for the Senior Citizens' Secretariat was. I'm not sure they would have viewed it as a second-tier responsibility. If that's how you viewed it, are you suggesting that the seniors will be the first tier, and the other things you're responsible for will be the second tier?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'll definitely take the opportunity to highlight the new investments and speak to initiatives that through the hard work of the Public Service and ongoing support from our government continue to enhance the life for Nova Scotia seniors. In doing so, I definitely am honoured to be that minister and will work towards bringing their concerns forward.
MR. MCNEIL: Not to belabour this point, but your budget is going to consist of the $1 million that presently the Senior Citizens' Secretariat has. A Cabinet Minister, and I will add this, a senior Cabinet Minister was responsible for the secretariat before, namely the Minister of Health. The former Minister of Health and the present Minister of Health were responsible for the Senior Citizens' Secretariat. I assume they had a pretty powerful voice at the Cabinet Table. I guess, and I'm asking this on behalf of seniors, what's different other than the department? Other than by naming it, what's different for them? How are they going to see a different division coming from this government dealing with their concerns?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It definitely will be an expanded role of the secretariat. The secretariat definitely has played a key role and will continue to play a key role in the Ministry for Seniors. Having said that, as a government, we understand there are a lot of concerns out there. We've gone through an election. I've knocked on a lot of doors, I know as you have and all my colleagues have, we've heard a lot of these concerns and we definitely need to make sure that we advance these concerns back to the decision-making table and that seniors do have representation and feel that they have representation that they can turn to, and I will be that minister and I will continue to work on their behalf to make sure that those decisions are brought back.
MR. MCNEIL: I appreciate that, and I'm not questioning the intent and the vigour that you will take to this new position, but I would probably submit to you that the Senior Citizens' Secretariat said they were doing that prior to the last election. Is this an admission that they weren't?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I didn't catch the first part of that. Can you repeat that?
MR. MCNEIL: I appreciate the fact that you will have a voice and you'll be fighting for seniors' issues and you will be making sure that all of your colleagues are aware of the issues that pertain to seniors, but there's no new money. The money is coming from the
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secretariat. I would say to you, prior to the last election, the Senior Citizens' Secretariat would tell you they were doing that. Is this an admission that they weren't?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Absolutely not. The Senior Citizens' Secretariat played a very significant role and this government continues to play a very significant role and will continue to play a significant role. Having said that, there are issues out there and related to that, as the new minister for seniors and proud to be the minister for seniors in this province, because we have an aging population out here. With our baby boomers coming through the system, we need to definitely make sure, now more than ever, that we have a dedicated minister responsible so that we do have that opportunity to advance issues of our seniors and to work on their behalf as an elected member.
MR. MCNEIL: Minister, I don't disagree with you. As a matter of fact, I think I campaigned on that for 30 days, suggesting that we needed a dedicated Department of Seniors, but I think what I also campaigned on is that it needed to be funded properly. What you're suggesting is that you are actually just allocating $1 million that you had previously been spending on the Senior Citizens' Secretariat and because we've given it a minister, we're going to provide better services to seniors. I don't think seniors see it that way and I guess from the seniors in my constituency and in yours, we can go to them and say today, you have a new Ministry of Seniors that is going to look after your needs. What is different that you are going to do that the secretariat wasn't doing because you only have the same the amount of money they had?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: By creating this portfolio, our government has reinforced the importance of addressing the diverse needs of the rapidly growing population here in the Province of Nova Scotia. By doing that, this is a new department. It's a department that, yes, we will be going through the setting up of the department and getting things in place, and that won't happen overnight. Will I be advocating for more funding for seniors in the upcoming years? Absolutely. Currently, we are dealing with a budget that is provided through the Seniors Citizens' Secretariat, but in the future, yes, I see this ministry growing and more funding being provided for it in the future.
MR. MCNEIL: Perfect. How many people will be working in your department? How many people are working in it now?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Currently, there are seven full-time employees and five on contract.
MR. MCNEIL: Explain to me the five on contract. What would they be doing? What's their role in this?
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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Through the different strategies that we have out there, we contract staff to work on the positive strategy on aging and the strategy for elder abuse and different strategies that are out there and we assign staff to them on a contract basis.
MR. MCNEIL So they would be, basically, contracts that have already been put out by the government prior to the development of the new ministry and they're just being shifted over into your department now? Would that be fair to say?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They are currently the staff at the Senior Citizens' Secretariat, is what they are, and we will be building on that role that they are playing currently.
MR. MCNEIL: The seven employees, are they currently at the Senior Citizens' Secretariat as well?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'm having a hard job hearing what you're saying.
MR. MCNEIL: The seven employees, are they currently employed by the Senior Citizens' Secretariat as well?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, they are.
MR. MCNEIL: When do you actually see the development of this department, because clearly there's not a department other than in name only? I appreciate we're in a budget and all of those things, but let's really just cut it down to what it is. It is a changing of the name from the Senior Citizens' Secretariat to the Department of Seniors and giving it to - we've already had that, other than it was called the Senior Citizens' Secretariat and it had the Minister of Health look after it. Now you're going to be the dedicated minister and you're going to bring the voice to the Cabinet Table which I assumed - well I know, knowing the previous Ministers of Health, they would have done the same thing. When do you see this additional money that you're talking about coming forward, so that we can go back to seniors in this province and say, we're moving forward, we're going to represent you in a different way than the province has done in the past, we recognize your specific needs?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I see this department moving forward, I definitely need to sit down, look at what mandate we will have. Look at setting up a department for seniors and the secretariat playing a role in that department, not being the only role there, but definitely looking at a department for seniors. Now having said that, it will take time to establish putting in $1 million or $2 million into a department. At this point in time, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me until we can actually look at what direction and where we're going. As the new Minister of Seniors, that's my mandate, to set up this department and see to it that it does have proper funding and that we're moving forward. Again, we will
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need to establish budgets and establish things in the future to make sure that this is happening.
Currently, as I have said, by creating this portfolio, our government does recognize the needs of our aging population and the diverse needs out there to make sure that we do have that voice and that we will continue to work to advocate for seniors in this province.
MR. MCNEIL: Do you envision a day that this department will begin to look after, for example, the issue of long-term care which is predominately a seniors issue? Do you envision them looking presently after Pharmacare, which is predominately a seniors issue? Do you envision that they will come under your purview within the department, or will they stay in the Department of Health?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There are several departments across government that are service providers for seniors. I see them continuing this service within government. However, I do see the Minister of Seniors playing a significant role in decision making that is provided for those services.
MR. MCNEIL: One of the reasons I ask that is in the last government, one of the issues which was discovered in my riding was the issue of seniors paying a Pharmacare premium when they didn't have to. It was low-income seniors who were paying this premium when they didn't have to. The government acknowledged that to a point in the beginning and said, we hear you. We hear what you're saying and we will refund 12 months, perhaps two years but, we are not going any further. To their credit, with a lot of push from MLAs, not just myself but MLAs from - I believe I know two Parties and I believe all three Parties were getting calls in their office of this growing concern.
The disappointing thing for me quite frankly was the Senior Citizens' Secretariat's silence. The Senior Citizens' Secretariat role, and I'm probably generalizing a bit, seems to be to represent Nova Scotians who are doing quite well, who are retiring from a profession that is well organized, pensionable - the group of seniors in my constituency who need a voice, but not the loudest voice. The people in my riding who needed the loudest voice didn't have anyone in government to turn to.
My concern is, you are adopting the Senior Citizens' Secretariat and changing the name. How are you going to be the voice for those seniors who need that loud voice to ensure that when - I'm not suggesting that any government intentionally took advantage of them - when a mistake is identified, stands up and admits that and fights for that? How are you going to be that voice if you're adopting the Senior Citizens' Secretariat as is?
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[7:00 p.m.]
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Adopting the Senior Citizens' Secretariat is not exactly how I would explain it. The Senior Citizens' Secretariat will fall under the Ministry for Seniors; it will be part of that portfolio. The concerns of seniors definitely - you referred to a specific issue and that would be an avenue that I would play a significant role and would feel that I should be playing a significant role when there are issues and specific issues out there and I would bring those back to the appropriate department. If that service provider happens to be the Department of Health, or whatever department, I would work with that minister to make sure that seniors' concerns are heard and represented. That's where I see this department moving, so that there is that voice back to the service providers within government.
There are several service providers to seniors when you look through community services to housing to different areas. There are a lot of these different service providers and they're doing a good job in providing the service, but seniors still have concerns, and that voice needs to get back to the departments so that they are.
I know the Senior Citizens' Secretariat is doing a very good job. They do a lot of work with the Elder Abuse Strategy, with the positive task force on aging, and I attended some of that meeting that was held in my own local constituency. It definitely did bring back a lot of positive results to the province, and some good information that all departments will be able to look at and use in their policy and their decision making.
MR. MCNEIL: During the campaign, the issue around creating a Department of Seniors was meeting opposition, really, from the people involved. I shouldn't say the Senior Citizens' Secretariat, but people who were involved with the secretariat suggesting, we're already doing that, we're already providing that bridge, if you will, between the seven or eight different departments, quite frankly, that represent seniors' issues. We're doing that. Quite frankly, you're not doing anything differently. My hope is that with the development of this department, we will begin to recognize, perhaps bringing those issues under one umbrella to be the responsibility of a minister dedicated to seniors would be the appropriate way to go, as opposed to changing the name of the Senior Citizens' Secretariat and the minister to be a communications person between the departments.
I'm just putting that out there. I'm just saying, as a piece for you as you move forward. I know this is all new and it's unfolding, and I know you'll want to develop this in the best interests of seniors. I think that needs to be explored. Instead of being a communications minister, do we pull it in and actually be a service provider for seniors, Madam Minister, to use the phrase you're using.
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You mentioned the issue of the Elder Abuse Strategy, it was released, I think it was in November. Where are we in implementing that? At what stage are at implementing that strategy?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: In this year's budget, you will see that there is $55,000 allocated for the promotion toward eliminating elder abuse in this province and making people aware of elder abuse. That is part of this year's budget, and we'll continue to work with that.
MR. MCNEIL: What will you be doing with the $55,000? Will it be a communications piece?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It definitely is a communications piece to promote the awareness of elder abuse in our province.
MR. MCNEIL: So those Nova Scotians who already know there's elder abuse - what are we doing to help eradicate it?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There are different networks throughout the province that we need to work with, so that seniors know where to turn to get the supports that they need to deal with elder abuse, making sure that they have the community supports, the family supports and the legal supports there, so that they know, again, which direction to turn to. So it is a communications piece.
I had the opportunity to take part in an elder abuse conference last year, as Minister responsible for the Advisory Council on the Status of Women. Across this country, it definitely is a growing concern that is out there, and one that I'm proud to say this province is really taking steps in a positive direction. We are well ahead of most of the other provinces in this country, where we are currently.
MR. MCNEIL: I hope we'll be well ahead of them in terms of implementation as opposed to the announcement. I think, from what you're saying, the communications piece around this will be allowing seniors or family members who may think there's a senior in their family in a situation of elder abuse, here are the places you can go, here's the mechanism you can begin to move forward to help protect that loved one.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That is exactly what I was talking about when I was saying we need the networks in place and the networks available to our seniors in this province so they know what direction to turn to get that assistance, or family members.
MR. MCNEIL: Is it your intent, as this issue becomes more widely communicated, that network begins to receive some funding or will it be a volunteer network that happens in our communities now?
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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Most of the individuals that I'm referring to in this network would be your RCMP, your police forces, your social workers - it would already be paid workers in a system. It would be $55,000 that was put in this year's budget to promote or communicate where to turn to for that information on elder abuse is the only dollars I see being put in this, besides the money that is being budgeted for the additional police in our communities across this province - the 250 police officers and so on that is budgeted in the Justice budget.
MR. MCNEIL: I would suggest to you - I know there was an announcement in Cumberland South about a person working for the municipal police force in Springhill and the liaison to deal with seniors' issues. It was trumpeted as a first. Unfortunately, it wasn't the first in Nova Scotia. There's actually one in the Valley which was the first. I'm wondering if you knew that.
I would suggest to you that one of the roles they could play - and they do play very well in my riding - is providing seniors with that very information you're talking about. Quite frankly, they're the liaison with - my bother who is a policeman probably wouldn't like me saying this - the frightening experience or expectation that they may experience by calling in some of these professionals you're talking about. It's unsettling, you're in a very difficult time in your life, and you've never had to deal with that and all of those situations.
This liaison person has been a wonderful resource for the seniors in my riding. I believe they're expanding it into Kings County as we speak, but funding is always an issue. I would say to you, as the minister of the new Department of Seniors, that is one place you may want to look to be able to provide funding that can leverage so much more money in our communities because of the district health authorities, the health foundations, the auxiliaries all help fund this support person now. With additional dollars from your department, I think it would expand that service and go a long way to ensuring seniors have the information we all want them to have to know the network is there, to be able to help them in a time of crisis.
I would ask you, as this starts to unfold, that you take a serious look at that program. If you'd like, I can provide you with a contact of the lady who's actually the foundation, who started that program. It has been that support worker since its inception. If at a later date, I can provide that to you, and it would be well worth your while to have that conversation with her prior to any implementation.
You also have a Strategy on Positive Aging. Part of the report states there should be a process undertaken within each department with respect to prioritizing and determining appropriate action. Has this been happening? Where are we at?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There has been some work done in this area already in continuing care where we have looked at this strategy and there will be an interdepartmental committee struck to see to it that these areas are addressed and looked at. I'd like to go back
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to the issue you spoke of earlier with the police force, and with the dedicated officer in your community.
MR. MCNEIL: It's actually not a police officer, it's a dedicated resource person.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Okay, dedicated resource. I know that in a lot of the police forces across this province in the communities, they have a community liaison person. I know in my own home community, this individual works with seniors on seniors' issues, works with our youth, with different categories out in the community. I had heard of the one in Cumberland, I was not aware of the one in the Valley, and I would definitely welcome the opportunity to sit down with that individual because yes, I definitely believe that is a step in the right direction to have those resources available.
MR. MCNEIL: I'll extend the invitation to you now to come to the riding of Annapolis and I will make sure that happens and I'll even buy you lunch if you arrive at lunch time. (Interruption) That's right. You can arrive the same time the Minister of Health is announcing 40 long-term care beds - we'll all be happy.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I want to remind the member that this will be in Hansard, so we can go back to this. (Laughter)
MR. MCNEIL: As the implementation of this, is the Senior Citizens' Secretariat planning to play any role in this around the issue we were just talking about with respect to the departments and prioritizing and determining?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The executive director for the Senior Citizens Secretariat actually is chairing that interdepartmental committee and they will travel around the province to meet with the municipalities on this issue.
MR. MCNEIL: Perfect. Thank you very much, you have an exciting time ahead of you. I think with the unfolding of this department, you're in a wonderful position to have an impact on this province for a long time to come as you start developing and moving forward. I look forward to next year's budget when we can see some additional funding put in place to ensure that seniors are getting the care and the representation that we all feel they deserve. Good luck and I want to share the rest of my time with my colleague, the member for Halifax Clayton Park.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park.
MS. DIANA WHALEN: I wanted to switch to Immigration if I could for the questioning and I'll just give you a moment to have your staff arrive.
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[7:15 p.m.]
I was looking in the estimates and there's only one line that's provided under the Office of Immigration, at least in the page I've got which was Page 15.7 and it tells us that you got a budget estimate this year for $3.29 million. I would like to know if you could give me more of a breakdown, I know there is a much more detailed one that you would use internally and I'd like to get a better sense of where the funds are being spent in that department. Perhaps you would like me to be a bit more detailed, but I'd like to know the cost on salaries for example: How much is administration, how much is administrative, do you have any consultants in that amount of money, any special initiatives, temporary staff - I don't know, that sort of thing, just a breakdown.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It actually includes the costing for 13 staff which is itemized out at $825,000; the operating costs of $667,000 which includes settlement funding, of which $429,000 is new funding this year.
MS. WHALEN: In your comments earlier to my colleague across the table for Halifax Citadel, you mentioned about $2 million in settlement services matching those of the federal government. Was that just rounding it up so, in fact, the amount is actually $1.79 million?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The actual amount is $1.798 million, for $1.8 million.
MS. WHALEN: Okay, and in that you've increased it this year by $439,000, for settlement services?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.
MS. WHALEN: Could you give me the matching figure for the federal government? I realize they come close.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The amount of the settlement funding is $2 million.
MS. WHALEN: An even $2 million?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes. A little bit over $2 million.
MS. WHALEN: That's good. And it's 13 staff. Any consultants at all in the department?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, there are no consultants in the department, they're all permanent staff.
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MS. WHALEN: Are there any plans this year to do any consulting projects that would be paid for by the department, or studies, that sort of thing?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We have committed to doing a review of the full Nominee Program and we could - it hasn't been determined yet, but we could use a contract for that, an RFP.
MS. WHALEN: Or it could possibly be done by departmental staff in turn?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It could be in-house, that decision has not been made at this point in time.
MS. WHALEN: Okay. Now this year alone, your costs have increased. The budgeted amount is up by $662,000, over the forecast amount. I'm wondering if you could explain there, is that an increase in staffing? I think last year, you had about 11 or so.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The current staffing is going from 10.8 to 13, and that's the addition of one new FTE in the department and annualizing the other staff, and the increase in salary and benefits is actually $108,200.
MS. WHALEN: That's because the department didn't have a completely full year then. Your first year at 10.8 FTEs.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Correct.This annualized those salaries plus, again, it does give us the addition of one full-time FTE.
MS. WHALEN: Right, okay. That's very helpful and certainly going back to your opening comments, there has been an awful lot accomplished in the first year of operation and I should have really begun with that, rather than digging right into your numbers right away. Certainly, there's been a lot of successes in the first year. The fact that you've identified an office, that a minister was named, that all of the systems and so on were put into place to actually staff and get up and running. I think it's a very positive thing to be the only one in Canada that's co-located with the federal immigration office. I think it leads to some really - I'm certain in a working relationship some very good sharing of information and progress in that regard so that you would feel more integrated. Definitely both offices, the federal and our provincial office have the same aim: to hopefully expedite and help newcomers come here and be successful, as the word was used, in terms of arriving here. So I definitely wanted to make note of that and to look to the fact that some more resources have been made available. That's positive as well.
Delving back into the resources. What is most important to me, as an MLA and as the Critic for Immigration is how we're helping people integrate into our society here. It's one thing to hand out the papers and allow them to come, but we have some serious problems
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in terms of integration and in terms of supporting people who come here. One of the issues that has come to light for me - probably more so because of the election and knocking on doors - are the number of families who are here with their mothers, and fathers are working in their home countries. That's happening an awful lot. A lot of them Arabic, coming from the Middle East, but I'm sure that it's Koreans and it's other people as well and what's happening is the family is relocating here and they've been unsuccessful in finding proper employment. They're having to go back to their home countries and send money home and visit when they can. It's really damaging to the family as you can appreciate. We talked about isolation for newcomers. It's even more isolating if you're here alone with your children, trying to raise your family and not have your husband here, or the breadwinner with you.
Anyway, it's a real problem and it's interesting that I had just been reading an article today which I'll probably refer to a few times in my questioning with you, but it's an article from today's Globe and Mail. It's called "Canada Not Welcoming to Immigrants, Studies Find". It's a new study that has just come out. The author, well, they have the author here. The title of it is, Unsettled: Legal and Policy Barriers for Newcomers in Canada, and what I found most interesting was one of the cases that she refers to is a family from Bulgaria whose husband is back in Bulgaria working. It said it's a waste of human resources, you know, and it's a crime really to have people be recruited here with high skills and then not be able to integrate them into the workforce.
So I think that is one of our major challenges, to make sure that they come here and that they can find a job. I mean, I'm delighted that they settle in Clayton Park and that they've purchased homes, but I know and you know - I'm sure the minister will know and those in the department will know, or the office will know - that this is quite a common occurrence. So I think that there's a real challenge there in terms of the integration, and the article refers specifically to the fact that this generation of immigrants are the best educated. They're much better educated than they were in previous waves of immigration because Canada has set the bar very high for skills and qualifications to enter and what's happening is they are arriving here and not finding their employment opportunities available.
So I think that that's something that both the federal and our provincial counterparts could be working on because I guess the specifics, and we'll get to that, would be your credential recognition and how we're going to integrate people. Again, during the election I spoke to somebody who was actually here from the United States whose career - we often talk about engineers or doctors, her career is as a counsellor and her credential as a counsellor officer - not a psychologist, but more of a family counsellor - is not recognized and that's going to hold her back in terms of what she can accomplish here and what she can do, and she asked me to look into that after the election had passed. So I have yet to bring it to you as a case, but it's just another category of skilled, trained people who have been recognized in one country and are not being recognized here.
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I think that those hurdles are major in terms of us retaining people because they will either return home or they'll go to another province that has better recognition of their credentials and better job opportunities. So it's a real challenge and, as I say, I'm particularly concerned about the families whose breadwinners had to leave them here and go somewhere else. I just think it's really damaging in terms of, that's not our intent when we try to encourage settlement here.
So the settlement services is where I want to go with the questioning and you're up to almost $2 million for our own money we're putting in, the federal government at $2 million. So, you know, we're starting to make some headway, but I would like you to go, if you would, and talk to me about some of the settlement services we're funding with that and what improvements you'll see as a result of this money, like what can we look for in the way of improvements in our communities?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I would just like to go back and state that when we did the study with the immigrants who left this province, one of the key reasons that they left the province was due to not being able to find employment here in ours. That's why the economic stream and skilled labour stream and so on are so important to us, to make sure that they can be integrated in and the family stream I also see as being a very important stream. Now, having said that, we will need to work with the professional associations to make sure that the credentials that immigrants are coming in with are recognized here, and we have a lot of work to do there and I do recognize that.
Looking at the increase of the $439,000 this year alone into settlement funding, enhanced integration and settlement programming in the amount of $180,000, enhanced language training for adults of $120,000, as well as developmental grants for $139,000, is where the additional funding is going this year. As well, I also mentioned to our colleague earlier that there's $200,000 coming from the Department of Education to enhance English as a second language in our P-12 grades in school, so that there is a total of $550,000 now for English as a second language in our P-12 system, and $250,000 of that comes from the Office of Immigration.
MS. WHALEN: Can I just go over those numbers once more? ESL was another subject I was going to come to, but you've raised it. Two hundred and fifty thousand dollars of the ESL and P-12 comes from your budget, is that correct?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, it does. In the past, the Department of Education provided $100,000 and they have an increased amount of $200,000 on top of that, so the total for English as a second language for immigrants - $250,000 from our office, $100,000 that the Department of Education had in the past and an additional $200,000 this year - is $550,000.
MS. WHALEN: For P-12?
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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: For P-12, correct.
MS. WHALEN: Now, just while we're on that particular subject, obviously English as a second language is a key to integration for the young people and their families. We owe that to them if they come here, we have to provide some help in their integration and language is the most basic building block for that. I'd mentioned to the Minister of Education in estimates just yesterday about the tremendous need, just in my area alone in Clayton Park, where there are an awful lot of newcomers. The school board has been paying for that through supplementary funding money, again, from the property tax base in Halifax, getting money for supplementary funding.
In previous years, I think just here in HRM, they've had roughly $300,000, I believe that's the figure, dedicated to ESL, and up until last year they had no help at all. They didn't have that $100,000 which came from Education until last year's budget. So it's quite new. Again, I'm very happy to see the direction that the department is going, perhaps a new initiative and emphasis on immigration is leading to this, and I think that's important. But ESL is still being funded by supplementary funding. They're still using that here in HRM. HRM, I believe, has 80 per cent of the immigrants to Nova Scotia, and 55 per cent of the immigrants to Atlantic Canada. So we have the lion's share of new Canadians right here in HRM.
I'm wondering, when do you see that the demand will be properly met, or have you even measured the full extent of the demand? I guess that's the better question, do we even know what the demand is, because the school board put $300,000 in and admitted that it was not enough. I know that at Halifax West there were 80 students receiving full-time ESL last year, and 80 that were in a separate area of the school doing nothing but ESL and not able to integrate yet into the other academic classes. I think the resources were stretched thin in order to provide that. They weren't getting a lot of one-on-one, let me put it that way. The school board recognized that even with their allocation of supplementary funding, it wasn't enough. So what's the shortfall? We're putting more money in - where are we headed?
[7:30 p.m.]
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Looking at where we were last year, and every board that participated in ESL received $5,000 and on top of that $5,000, then it was allocated based on the number of students in those areas. There were five boards across this province that actually used the program. Now, the additional $200,000 that is being put into that this year will be very significant in that funding, but, again, looking at the demand on the system and where we are, we do recognize that it does need more money and that's why the additional $200,000 was put there.
Through the Nominee Program, when we look at individuals who are coming into this province, one of the things that we do look at is that they do have strong English
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language skills to start with, as a base, so that they can integrate into the communities and feel that they are there. As well, there also is funding available for ESL for international students, and that money is funded directly through the tuition that these international students pay to come here. So there are several sources of ESL in the school system and how it's being provided.
MS. WHALEN: I guess what I would ask is that, maybe one of your goals in the next year would be to determine what is the gap, because I think we don't even know where we're headed. One of the things is, you want to increase your numbers of immigrants, you want to double those numbers so we want to get up to over 4,000 newcomers a year here. If we get to that point we know we're increasing the demand, we should know how we can provide the right level of services to support those people. Even if there's a shortfall, at least you have your target figured out because, in the last two years, there's been an evidence of good will and funds following the intention to increase that. I'm just saying let's set a target and maybe that's a question that could come back at another time - the school boards could probably do a lot of that.
While we're talking about ESL, the subject came up at the Economic Development Committee when Ms. Mills was there to speak to us about immigration and the subject came up about two things. One is that the moment a person becomes a Canadian citizen they're not eligible for the ESL training that the federal government provides - this is for adults. Once they're Canadian citizens, they're no longer eligible and that means you're having what tend to be generally women who have been at home with their families making a mistake perhaps of becoming Canadian citizens and losing the right to the ESL training that they desperately need. Sometimes they've missed the opportunity in the first few years here because they've been home. What came out of that discussion was primarily that they need child care. If we want to get them out of their homes and stop the isolation, we need to bring them into ESL programs, but we have to provide some dependable child care. I'm wondering as a result of that meeting if anything has been looked at or done?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Funding for child care is provided through CIC and we're actually looking at setting up a joint federal-provincial committee to work to see to it that this area for child care - look at where we need to be and what challenges are out there. Our goal again is to make sure the retention rate here in the province moves from 40 to 70 per cent and that we have those numbers back to where we would like to see them in 2010 as being 3,500, and we will continue to work toward those goals. We recognize that in order for this to happen, our settlement funding is a key area in retaining these individuals and English as a second language definitely plays a significant role here to make sure that our immigrant population are able to adapt to our way of life.
MS. WHALEN: Earlier on in your opening comments, you spoke about the settlement allocation model. Is that a funding formula?
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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That is a federal formula that is used.
MS. WHALEN: To provide funding to the provinces?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: To provide the funding to the provinces. It's based on the number of immigrants.
MS. WHALEN: Okay. From some of my reading I understood that other provinces had better access not just on a per immigrant basis, but better access to settlement monies. Is that true?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Ontario and B.C. have just renegotiated their agreement with the federal government and Atlantic Canada - we will be negotiating ours before the end of August. Now, per capita basis, Nova Scotia is probably one of the highest funded in the country.
MS. WHALEN: However, it's worth noting that if they cut those services lower you won't be able to support at all because we have such low numbers. I think we get less than 1 per cent of the immigrants to Canada, which we should at least get 3 per cent if we're roughly proportional to our provincial size so I'm sure you'll make a strong argument for that. I just wondered because there's so much that goes on federally and provincially in terms of negotiations and I was speaking earlier this afternoon to the Minister of Finance about fiscal imbalance and his aims there. This would be another area of importance. Could you tell me, you mentioned Atlantic Canada's open - would you go as a group and negotiate as a group?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.
MS. WHALEN: In terms of the attraction of immigrants - this kind of falls right in there if you're working collaboratively with the other Atlantic Canadian Provinces - will you go jointly to recruit new Canadians?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That's been the current practice for the last two years and we'll continue that.
MS. WHALEN: So, if there were a mission to go abroad to go to one of the immigration fairs, would you jointly share the cost and so on?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We have an Atlantic group, yes.
MS. WHALEN: Is there a name for that group? Does it have a formal structure?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Pan Atlantic.
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MS. WHALEN: We're talking about recruitment here, and a big part of the recruitment for Nova Scotia has to do with international students. I know you spoke a little earlier about that in your first hour. What I'm wondering, on the international recruitment, we have a new organization, EduNova, that was touched on by the member for Halifax Citadel. Are you on the board or is the Office of Immigration represented in any way on that board?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We are not directly on the committee, but we do meet staff-to-staff just about every two weeks, the staff gets together, so that we are consulted on the process that is being made.
MS. WHALEN: Going back to the settlement services, you referred to development grants - I didn't get the amount you had written down there, but there's money allocated this year for development grants. Again, could you be more specific? That's a little bit of bureaucratic talk in a way - development grants. What will people see that is really going to improve life in the communities where there's a lot of immigrants? What services are we going to see?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Working with the individuals to make sure language training could be one of the settlement funding areas that is provided by the communities. We work very closely with the RDAs in the province - the regional development authorities. Looking at employers to recognize skill sets they're looking for and how we can integrate our immigrant population into some of these skill sets. Just overall making sure that the services they need to integrate into our communities are made available to them.
MS. WHALEN: How much money is allocated for grants that you give to outside agencies? You've just referred to the RDAs, but I'm thinking of your settlement service providers or non-profits that are in our communities. I'm thinking of MISA - that would be the most famous, but the YMCA newcomers' service and I believe you have nine agencies that you've funded. I may be wrong, but nine is the number that's . . .
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The total amount of funding that is allocated in the 2006-07 budget is $304,000. That's an increase of $139,000 this year.
MS. WHALEN: Could you say that again?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It's $304,000. The 2005-06 allocation was $166,000, so there's $139,000 increase this year alone.
MS. WHALEN: Is that spread among nine agencies?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It would be more than the nine agencies. It would be all those involved in the developmental funding, as they apply for.
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MS. WHALEN: Can you tell me how many organizations got grants last year?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Somewhere in the vicinity of 20 last year applied for this funding. All of the funding - the $1.524 in 2005-06, there were approximately 20 different organizations that applied for that funding. That would include the regional development authorities throughout the province.
MS. WHALEN: Did all the RDAs receive funds? There are 13 RDAs.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Only those who applied received funding.
MS. WHALEN: In fact there's only 12. I remember the Western RDA is no longer there. But not all of them applied? Okay. I think from the point of view of the public, what they'd really like to know is what these grants are doing to make it easier for newcomers. We've defined the problem pretty well, and your immigration strategy defines some of the challenges very well. So I'm really looking for some practical things that have improved. I know the office is really new, but at the same time I know there's a lot of impatience in the community about, let's get some things in place that we can actually see. Whether it's programs that people can start accessing, places that the young people can start to get the services they need to integrate, sports programs, community integration, host programs, matching programs with Canadians - all kinds of other things that will start to integrate people. I'm wondering if those are happening? I want to hear some success stories.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll allow the minister to give a final answer, because your time has expired. We can come back tomorrow.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, there are many programs that are very successful in our enhanced language training, and the different programs that the community organizations and RDAs are offering to our communities have been very successful. Again, it is a new department, it's a department that we're definitely moving forward with. I'm very proud to be the minister of this department. When you look at where we're going and what strides have been made over the past few years, we definitely should all be proud of the direction that we're taking here. Again, moving forward, we have increased our statistics by 8.5 per cent. I know the chairperson is waiting for me to wrap up, so I'll leave it at that until tomorrow.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I have three minutes left for the NDP.
The honourable member for Halifax Citadel.
MR. LEONARD PREYRA: Mr. Chairman, I hadn't expected to have three additional minutes. I have four questions, four orphan questions from my previous presentation. Hopefully, they're short snappers. The member for Halifax Clayton Park asked, at the
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beginning of her time, for a breakdown of figures, and I'm wondering if the minister would make that available in a copy so that we can in fact look at it and use it? I know I would find it very informative if I could get a copy of that.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.
MR. PREYRA: I have another somewhat off-topic question, but in closing my time, the minister referred to a report from MISA, I believe, that talked about a study of why immigrants leave the province. I'm wondering if the minister would agree to make that report available to us, as well?
[7:45 p.m.]
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We will contact MISA to see if that report is available to be made public.
MR. PREYRA: We would like the minister to use her good office to encourage MISA to make it available to us, because it is an important question, particularly for internal migration as well within Nova Scotia to see why many of our local citizens leave.
Third question - a study I referred to earlier recommended that the Department of Education re-establish the position of ESL consultant. Can the minister tell us whether or not her office has approached the department on re-establishing that position of ESL consultant, because it makes a big difference to women and girls in particular?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: At this point in time, we haven't made any representation to have that position established. We see the money being more beneficial going directly into the school system to be used for ESL services.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Our time has elapsed for today. We'll be back at it tomorrow.
We are adjourned.
[The subcommittee rose at 7:46 p.m.]
