[Page 467]

HALIFAX, THURSDAY, MAY 6, 2004

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY

2:16 P.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. William Dooks

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Liberal caucus has 56 minutes left if they care to use it all and we will start with the member for Cape Breton East.

MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Sorry, Mr. Chairman, there is no constituency by the name of Cape Breton East.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let's get it right then - Cape Breton West. Sorry, Mr. MacKinnon, I said it right before and I appreciate your correction, Cape Breton West.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I guess I would like to start off by asking if the minister would be kind enough to table the documents for the pay for performance, the bonuses. We can use whatever acronyms we want. I mean I think the minister seems to have two different determinations there and that's fine. Does she have the documents that we can view to see what the criteria are for doing these performance evaluations?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Human Resources.

HON. CAROLYN BOLIVAR-GETSON: Are you asking me to table the amounts of the senior officials' pay for performance?

MR. MACKINNON: No, no. I'm just asking for the general forms, I'm not asking for names or whether they're filled in or not. There must be a . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The criteria.

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[Page 468]

MR. MACKINNON: . . . template, yes.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We do not have that with us, but we can provide it to you.

MR. MACKINNON: Perhaps just so to make things flow easily, if the minister doesn't have certain pieces of information or documentation, I could take an undertaking that you will provide it, but let's say within a 30-day period, would that be a reasonable period of time?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, and I do have the information, I believe, right here, that you asked for on Tuesday, and that's a copy of the Affirmative Action policy, someone asked for, and the Civil Service Regulations, and the Estimates Speech, and that information is here for those who did request that.

MR. MACKINNON: If we could go to Page 109 of the Public Service, the Supplement to the Public Accounts, I would like to start with the salaries. I notice the salary for Terri L. Aker is $41,921.89. Last year in the Supplement that was $32,535.58. Could the minister please explain why the $9,000 increase in pay?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That would be in Communications you're looking under?

MR. MACKINNON: Yes, Communications Nova Scotia on Page 109. Wait now, I will make sure I have the right book, yes, Page 109 of the Supplement.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That is not one that we would be familiar with under the Public Service Commission. That would be under Communications.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, that's true, but it says Public Service. She would have been hired through the Public Service Commission, correct, the hiring process for this individual?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, she had been hired through Communications Nova Scotia.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, it's under the title Public Service.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess if you look at the beginning of that book, the Public Service actually classifies the Office of Acadian Affairs, Aboriginal Affairs, it's quite a detailed list and each minister responsible for those departments is accountable for the individual accounts.

[Page 469]

MR. MACKINNON: I realize that, but you're in charge of Human Resources, correct?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MR. MACKINNON: So you would be responsible for determining, let's say, pay scales, classifications, that sort of thing?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That is correct.

MR. MACKINNON: Has there been a change of classification for this individual?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We would have to find that out from Communications Nova Scotia.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay, and then perhaps an explanation as to why there has been a $9,400-some increase in pay? That's about a 30 per cent pay increase. So you will give an undertaking you will provide that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We will provide that data.

MR. MACKINNON: Also on the same line item, down a little further, Daniel S. Davis. There's a pay there of $49,190.10. Last year it was $43,551.50. Would the minister give an undertaken that she will find out if this particular individual has been reclassified and what the reason is for this $6,000 pay increase?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, I will provide that.

MR. MACKINNON: And perhaps you will do the same for Kevin J. Doran which is the next item down, $46,441.90, up from $42,141.87?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes, and that's the same with Carla Grant. She now is being paid $37,531.73. Last year it was $32,125.68. The same for that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Any of the names on there, if you would like that clarification.

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MR. MACKINNON: There's one in particular that really sticks out and this is Linda M. Laffin. This year it's $64,093.13. Last year it was $38,672.54. Does that strike a bell with anybody in Human Resources? That's about a 100 per cent increase, 90 per cent for sure.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, we will provide all those details.

MR. MACKINNON: And there's another one here as well that sticks out. H. Patti MacAulay is now being paid $47,000.27. Last year she was paid $38,780.00. Would the minister give an undertaking for a similar analysis?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MR. MACKINNON: And this one, I'm sure there's a logical explanation for this, this year Norma J. MacIsaac, in the Supplement for 2003, was $28,097.97 whereas the previous year it was $58,559.22. That as well?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: She could have been on a job leave, but I will get that information for you.

MR. MACKINNON: That would appear to be the case, that would appear perhaps. Down again, Susan Jane MacLeod is now noted for $51,433.82. The previous year she was paid $39,660.26. Now, that's over a $10,000 pay increase. So perhaps if the minister could give me some detail as to whether there was a reclassification and the reason for that increase as well?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: And, again, this information will all be provided in a package to you.

MR. MACKINNON: Sure, okay. There is one here as well, Penny Lynn McCormick is now $37,427.09 whereas the previous year she was $30,075.10. It's a $7,400 increase. A similar undertaking, yes?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MR. MACKINNON: Daniel E.H. Mombourquette in the latest Supplement was paid $52,644.74. The previous year he was paid $42,181.71. That's a $10,000 increase. That's about a 25 per cent pay increase. Perhaps the minister could give an undertaking as to whether this gentleman received a reclassification and what the reason is for that significant jump?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: And, again, that information will be provided as we do an individual analysis on each one of these people.

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MR. MACKINNON: Sure. There's another one here, Miriam Murray being paid $82,093.90. The previous Supplement to the Public Accounts indicated that she was paid $56,161.91. That's a $26,000 pay increase in one year.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: These estimates are all part of Communications Nova Scotia and the minister who is responsible for these individuals would be Minister Fage and I will turn this over to him to provide.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes, well, since your department is the clearing house for job classifications and hirings and all that sort of stuff, I would presume that there is some accountability back and forth between these two departments. Then we have Tom Peck. He's at $57,743.53, up from $47,777.23, again a $10,000 increase in one year. We have Anne Perigo at $50,453.14, up from $39,856.22, again for both those.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: And, again, I believe if the member is going to continue on Communications Nova Scotia, the minister responsible should be present as part of this Public Service debate.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, it's up to yourself. All I know is it's in under Public Service. This is your department and this is what the estimates are about.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, Communications Nova Scotia is not my department.

MR. MACKINNON: No, no, I understand that, I understand that, but there's a linkage from one department to the other. The issue of human resources, job classifications and pay scales and so on comes under your department, correct?

[2:30 p.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacKinnon, do you intend to go through every name or is it possible - the minister has indicated that she will talk to her colleague and her colleague will get you this information for the names. Perhaps if you just provided a list of the names . . .

MR. MACKINNON: That's what I'm doing.

MR. CHAIRMAN: But if you could provide her the list in writing, then we could move onto . . .

MR. MACKINNON: No, we're not going to provide it in writing. I'm doing it as my . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: So you want to name out every name here with the same answer coming time and time again?

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MR. MACKINNON: No. I just want it on the record that I will receive that information.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think she has indicated that she will provide that information. It's been on the record, she's answered that question about six times.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: And I will seek to the appropriate minister to get that information for you.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay. What I'll do is I'll read off the ones of concern, under Communications that I have. There's perhaps another five or six, just to get them on the record.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, that would be good. But she has already responded so you just read them off and we'll get them on the record and we'll move on, if that's okay. Thank you.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, are you suggesting I shouldn't exercise my right here?

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, I'm suggesting that you should read them into the record, but that since the minister has already made the response, in the interest of time, if you'd just read them into the record then we could move on.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, I'll determine, since I'm the one that has to - like every other member in this House - be accountable for the decisions I make. I will make that determination, not the Chair. To be advised what I can and what I can't do or what I should or what I shouldn't do. I would suggest that Mr. Chairman should be cognizant of that fact.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacKinnon, if you'd like to read out the names, please do so. What I'm suggesting is, the minister answered your question six times the same answer. So if you'd like to read the names to get them into . . .

MR. MACKINNON: No, that is not correct, Mr. Chairman. You are misleading the committee. She has answered the question for each of the names that I've asked, but for the sake of being respectful of the minister's request, with the minister responsible for Communications Nova Scotia, what I'll do is I'll give you the names that I have and the amounts and then she can just answer in block. Is that fair enough?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That's fine. Continue.

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MR. JERRY PYE: . . . the member for Cape Breton West and not to imply on how the Chair should conduct a meeting, but just simply say that the hour or the amount of time that's left available, Mr. Chairman, is up to the discretion of the honourable member here and how the honourable member utilizes that hour. That's all I would add to the conversation.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, no one's disputing that. What we're disputing is simply that the minister has made the answer and in the interests of not having to make the same answer every time, it would be helpful if you'd make them in block, which you've agreed to do. Is that not accurate?

MR. MACKINNON: That's what I and the minister had just agreed to.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. The minister's agreed to that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, you've agreed to that, let's proceed.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The last name that I have is for Tom Peck.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes. Thank you. The next one would be Nancy Radcliffe. She's now at $45,280.12. In previous years she was $38,250. Cathy Shaw, we'll just skip that one - it seems within reason. Stephen Smith, according to the Supplement, is being paid $39,919.11, the previous year it was $29,582.36. The next one is Leanne Strathdee, paid $49,696.44, the previous year it was $43,983.60. Alexandrine M. Syliboy is now being paid $36,809.16, the previous year she was paid $26,407.34. That's the rest of the ones that are in Communications Nova Scotia that show significant pay increases so if the minister . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Okay. I will find out from the minister responsible for Communications Nova Scotia and get that information to you.

MR. MACKINNON: That's fine.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.

MR. MACKINNON: Now, if we could perhaps fast forward over to the Emergency Measures Organization. There's one line item there, A. Jane McNeil now being compensated $48,202.61 - the previous year it was $40,769.38. The next one on that is Darrell Marsh being paid $42,266.38 - the previous year he was paid $35,734.97. Perhaps if the minister, on those two as well?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, I'll pass those on to the minister responsible.

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MR. MACKINNON: Yes. This one, I think, must have a logical explanation, but I'll put it there in the mix as well. Under the Executive Council, Margaret MacInnis, this year was paid in this Supplement, $47,503.02 - the previous year it was $104,408.32. Obviously, I think it would be perhaps a leave from that position or something to that effect.

Out of the total Public Service, I believe the minister indicated approximately 7,000, correct?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: In the Civil Service?

MR. MACKINNON: Yes. How many people are employed by the province on a contract basis in the last year?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We don't have that information available today.

MR. MACKINNON: Will you provide it?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MR. MACKINNON: How many persons were hired on a casual basis? Like term positions?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We were asked that question on Tuesday and did agree to provide that breakdown by department.

MR. MACKINNON: I noticed there's considerable expenditure - all these different agencies that come in under Public Service, like EMO, Executive Council, Inter-Governmental Affairs and so on - a lot of expenditure back to Communications Nova Scotia. Would the minister have any indication or idea of why, despite the fact that for Communications Nova Scotia the total salary there is over $5.5 million. Then we have all these charges back to Communications Nova Scotia under all these sub-titles. Would the minister have any indication as to why? And what all these amounts are for?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Mr. Chairman, the question being asked does not fall under the category of myself whatsoever. I think the member should direct that question when he has the opportunity to the minister responsible for Communications. Likewise, with the other Public Service accounts, when we're talking different areas there, there are ministers responsible for that and those questions need to be directed that way.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, Mr. Chairman, there seems to be a bit of confusion as to the amount of communication that the minister is suggesting exists between herself and the departments to which she is kind of like the overseer of this transfer of human resources and the expenditure dollars attached to them. It's hard to measure what type of accountability we're even going to get because, number one, the minister is to date - I don't think we're

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going to be able to receive the bonus amounts of the 200 employees. Is that correct? Are we going to be able to have access to the bonus amounts they were paid?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Are we referring to the senior officials pay for performance?

MR. MACKINNON: No. Are there any other officials in the department, in government, that have been paid bonuses other than just senior officials? Performance bonuses? Employees? Or, is it just senior . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Based on performance . . .

MR. MACKINNON: Is it just senior officials in government that have been paid bonuses, pay for performance, whatever you want to call it? Have any other employees out of the 7,000 been paid other than senior officials?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The MCP level, which I did speak of in my ministerial statement in the House, are also paid pay for performance.

MR. MACKINNON: How many of those have been paid?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: How many? There's 1,100 MCPs and I believe it's approximately 800 individuals out of the 1,100 received pay for performance at the MCP. Actually, it's 834.

MR. MACKINNON: And, what's the total amount that was paid to those 834?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It's $1.58 million.

MR. MACKINNON: The $1.58 million was paid in bonuses or reward of some sort over and above their base salary. Correct?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That would also include the movement of individuals and the MCP level through their pay scale range, along their scale.

MR. MACKINNON: What we're doing here is mixing apples and oranges. I don't want the salary adjustment issue - that's a separate issue altogether, going from job classification. I want to know specifically how many employees - you said 834 - were paid under the designation of MCP, they were paid pay for performance bonuses of some sort. Correct?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Pay for performance - 834 individuals received that and the average payout was $1,635 per individual.

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MR. MACKINNON: Okay. Now we're getting somewhere.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I have to correct myself. I'm in the wrong fiscal year, I was in 2002-03; 2003-04, 731 employees or MCPs received the pay for performance. The average amount in 2003-04 was $1,963.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay, $1,963.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The figures that I previously gave was for the 2002-03 year.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay, there's fewer people as well in 2003-04, as there were in 2002-03, but they got more money.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, that would depend on where they fell on the scale.

MR. MACKINNON: So, in 2002-03, that's $1.36 million and in 2003-04 is $1.43 million. Correct?

[2:45 p.m.]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I do not have a calculator before me so I would not like to comment without having a calculator.

MR. MACKINNON: Oh, I see. You've got fragmented information in your budget detail, that's okay.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, I told you before that the amount that I had in the lump sum included as they progress along that scale too.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay, so the $1.85 million, that's for 2002-03?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The $1.85 million is 2003-04, $1.5 million was 2002-03.

MR. MACKINNON: The $1.58 million?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Is 2003-04, $1.5 million is 2002-03.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay. Now, I want to be clear. The amount, on average, the $1,963 for the 731 employees, did not include an adjustment in their job description - correct? This is just over and above their salary regardless whether there was a classification change or not - correct? These are their rewards for doing a great job.

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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That would include the movement within their salary range as well as the pay for performance if they were at the top of their salary range.

MR. MACKINNON: Can we say definitively what the amount of the pay for performance bonus is for each one of these individuals? I mean, it sounds to me as though you've got apples and oranges mixed up here - change of their job classification, moving their salary range and at the same time putting a pay for performance thing in there. Kind of a little convoluted. I'm getting a mixed signal here. Maybe I'm just not understanding.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess the system that was put in place in 2002 was a performance-based system.

MR. MACKINNON: I understand that.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: People progress along their scale based on performance. In the past, in the 1990s there was such a thing as merit pay. With the merit pay being stopped, or abolished in the 1990s, this is where this government moved into the performance-based pay where individuals who performed were moved up their scale and received the appropriate compensation as they moved, based on a formula.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, you're going to provide all the information regarding that formula - correct?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I am going to sit down with both critics and explain that information out to them and if anyone else would like to be involved in that meeting, they're welcome to be there.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, will you have some officials from the department to help explain that because I'll be honest, minister, I'm just not understanding what you're saying, I may be a slow learner, but I've asked you three or four times and I still don't understand. Generally I'm not too bad, I'm a stickler for numbers, that's my background. I'm analytical, but I just haven't been able to differentiate - you've got changing job classifications at the same time performance bonus enhancements in there. Everything is mixed in. Something is not clear in my mind. I would ask perhaps if somebody in the department could explain that. If the minister would give an undertaking, there must be somebody that can walk us through that.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: As far as the classification change within, this here is how one progresses along the pay scale. Within government you come in at between 80 and 104 per cent.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes, yes.

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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: As they progress up, is where you would see these numbers that you see before you - the average being this. It would also include individuals that were at the top of their pay scale.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay. They're in a salary range and if they do . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It's a salary range adjustment.

MR. MACKINNON: So, let's say for a particular job description they're expected to get to their 100 per cent performance level within two years, but if they do it within a year, then their pay would go up a lot quicker. Is that what I'm understanding here?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The level of performance and where they're at on the scale range dictates the amount of pay for performance they receive.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes, okay, I will let that go. So just for clarity one more time, out of the 7,000 public servants in the last year, 731 received those paid-for-performance bonuses, correct?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, that's the MCPs.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes, okay, and you have received an opinion that the names of these individuals are not to be made public, correct?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The names of the MCPs are not being made public at this time, no.

MR. MACKINNON: Why not?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Because, again, it goes back to it being based on their performance.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes, I see.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Performance appraisals within other segments of the Civil Service with unionized employees, they have performance appraisals that are carried out on them. Their pay is based on a step system.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Their performance appraisals are not public. By releasing this information to the general public, we're telling them exactly what people did on a performance appraisal and I don't know where you would go within government, or outside, that you would actually get someone's performance appraisal from their individual files.

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MR. MACKINNON: Well, I'm not talking so much performance appraisals, you see, you're talking about a different issue altogether. There's a fine line here. Performance appraisal is one thing and that's an internal matter, but if you're trying to say that people are going to be rewarded with taxpayers' dollars for doing their job and doing it well, over and above their pay scale, then the people of Nova Scotia have a right to know. You made reference, Madam Minister, through you, Mr. Chairman, in the House that it's much the same as in private corporations when people receive bonuses and so on.

Well, when senior directors receive performance bonuses and so on, that's all made public to the shareholders of that company and they have an opportunity at their annual meeting to either voice their approval or disapproval. What the government is engaging in, I would suggest, is suppression of public information. I understand the issue of confidentiality if you're going to start doing individual appraisals on one's performance in-house, but to take and mix apples and oranges, on one hand saying, well, we're going to be open and accountable and if you do really well for this government and for the people of Nova Scotia, we're going to give you extra money, but here's the catch - we can't tell the people of Nova Scotia who you are.

You're not only saying that you're rewarding competency, but what you're doing is, in effect, suppressing incompetency. You're trying to say, well, we have a weak government agency as well, then the people of Nova Scotia should know that or the members of the Legislature should know that. We don't even know what departments. Can you at least tell us what departments these individuals are in so we can determine whether it's the Department of Natural Resources, or the Department of Environment and Labour, or Justice, or Education, or Finance, or whatever, which department is doing a more efficient job than the other departments? Can you at least give us that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There would be a cross-section across government. There would be individuals from every department represented in this number.

MR. MACKINNON: I know that, I know that, but you must know what employees are employed in what department? I mean do you just throw the ball in a basket and say, oh, all that 731 all work for government and you don't know what departments they're in?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Oh, yes, we're aware of which departments that they work in.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, will you provide to members of the committee, like how many employees out of the 731 are from the Department of Education? How many are from Justice? How many are from Environment and Labour and so on?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: By departments that would not be a problem. The percentage breakdown we can provide to you.

[Page 480]

MR. MACKINNON: Okay, maybe by the end of June we will have this information. Recently the government, I'm going to switch the focus just slightly, if I could, the government just announced in the last few days, a week or so, that it was going to hire some additional staff for the Cabinet office in Sydney. It's under the Public Service here, they've got it budgeted for additional human resource coming out of the Cabinet office there.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Mr. Chairman, again, this is the Office of the Premier. I think that we need to clarify in the Public Service accounts what department we're dealing with at this time and that is the Public Service Commission. I'm the Minister of Human Resources responsible for the Public Service Commission and the Advisory Council on the Status of Women.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, Mr. Chairman, if I could finish.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: So if we could relate to that specific department.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, if the minister would be a little less impatient and allow me to finish, then maybe we would make some progress.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think the minister has been very, very kind to you, but finish up your question. I think she has answered that . . .

MR. MACKINNON: Well, how can she answer the question when I haven't even asked it yet?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Have you not answered the question about the Office of the Premier?

MR. MACKINNON: No, I haven't even asked it, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Finish your question.

MR. MACKINNON: And if you want to be partial on this committee, . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Finish your question, please.

MR. MACKINNON: If you want to be partial on this committee, say so, but allow me to do my job.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm asking you to finish your question.

MR. MACKINNON: Thank you. Has your department had any input into the individuals who have been hired in the Cabinet office, that's from Human Resources? Has there been any screening of individuals? I presume that comes under your department?

[Page 481]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No.

MR. MACKINNON: No, so the individuals hired in the Cabinet office would be outside of the Human Resources' domain and they're hired as political functionaries?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There has been no advertising and no hiring done at this point in time at all for those positions.

MR. MACKINNON: Is there anything contemplated? There has been an announcement made by government, I'm just curious. They've announced that they've hired a Mr. Keith Bain to work in the Cabinet office in Sydney.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again on the decision of another department and you'll have to direct that question there.

MR. MACKINNON: That's fine. That's what I'm trying to ascertain, as to whether your department had any input as to denoting, or approving, or questioning the competency, or the qualifications of the individual, or individuals, hired in that line department and you're saying no?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'm saying that those people, if it's not posted, they're not hired, and the answer would be no.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay, that's what I needed to know. So that decision was made outside of Human Resources. Just on that notice, you may have answered it, but I just want to be sure. Is the minister or anyone in her department aware of how many are being hired in that Cabinet office?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, that would be a question best directed to the Premier's office.

MR. MACKINNON: No, but that wasn't my question. My question is, are you aware of how many?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think she answered your question.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: And we do not have that information.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, Mr. Chairman, if you want to go down and sit beside the minister and coach her.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you challenging the Chair?

[Page 482]

MR. MACKINNON: Well, if you continually interject before I'm allowed to do my . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you challenging the Chair?

MR. MACKINNON: Well, yes, I am.

MR. CHAIRMAN: There are methods of challenging the Chair, but they're not at this particular level. You can use that option if you want later.

MR. MACKINNON: I will.

MR. CHAIRMAN: But could you continue with your questions, please.

[3:00 p.m.]

MR. MACKINNON: I will. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With regard to the different agencies, boards and commissions of government, for example, the housing authorities in this province, the criteria for performance-based bonuses, does that policy transcend to those particular agencies?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No.

MR. MACKINNON: No? Are you aware that there is such a policy within some of these agencies?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, we're not aware.

MR. MACKINNON: Are you aware that in the Halifax Regional Housing Authority there is a policy in place for that. It would pay employees a bonus of up to 4 per cent over and above their base salary.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, we're not aware.

MR. MACKINNON: Is anybody in your department aware of it?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Not that I'm aware of.

MR. MACKINNON: Would the minister or someone in that department please apprise members of the committee as to whether this particular policy, the MCP policy or any other bonus policy or whatever incentive you would like to refer to, whether it is just specifically designed for the departments, the Public Service and senior employees in the department and nothing else.

[Page 483]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That is correct.

MR. MACKINNON: That's correct and so no particular minister would be able to design a policy and extend that to, for example, the housing authorities in the province.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The housing authority is a separate employer and does not fall within the government policy.

MR. MACKINNON: I beg to differ and I think if the minister were to check she'll find that the housing authorities are an adjunct to the Nova Scotia Department of Community Services. I think she may want to check with her colleague on that and by extension she may want to review and find out if in fact these performance-enhanced bonuses exist not only within the Halifax Housing Authority - I spoke with a senior official last evening who informed me quite clearly that policy is there. Some employees do qualify. I'm just curious why the vacuum between one line of government to the other.

The issue of employees - I think the minister and I had this debate in the House with regard to increasing the number of public servants below the age of 30. She made reference to the apprenticeship program that they spoke about. How many public servants are now employed by the province on a contract basis, who were previously public servants in Public Service that retired from government and came back on contract?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, I would have to get those numbers for you. Those aren't available right here at my fingertips.

MR. MACKINNON: Would you have any idea of how many would fit into that category in the previous year? Would anybody in the department have any knowledge of that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No.

MR. MACKINNON: In the previous year of that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay. Would the minister give an undertaking to provide that information for the last three years?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay. How many new employees were hired in the last year?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That information we can provide to you once that's compiled. The full amount.

[Page 484]

MR. MACKINNON: Can you give me an approximate figure? There's quite a wealth of resources here for the Department of Human Resources, we're going to have to bring out other chairs pretty soon. There must be somebody in that department who can give me that answer.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That statistical information for across government we can get and provide to you.

MR. MACKINNON: Can the minister tell me how many below the age of 30 were commissioned to the Public Service?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Were hired last year?

MR. MACKINNON: Yes.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I can't tell you the exact amount that were hired last year, but I can tell you that approximately 3 per cent of the work force are age 30 and below.

MR. MACKINNON: Three per cent.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MR. MACKINNON: So, 97 per cent are above that. I believe we have those figures anyway. I've heard suggestions that the pay in the Public Service is the lowest of all comparables in the market place. I asked the staff from the Public Service Commission when they appeared before Human Resources Committee several weeks ago to provide those comparables. We have not received them yet. My understanding may not fit with the answer that I received, but can the minister confirm as to how the pay scale in the Public Service compares to the private sector or the federal level of government or the municipal level of government or other professions - whether it be teaching, nursing, what have you?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I can say that we definitely are below the federal government's public servant pay scale. I can also say that we are competitive with the private sector, or we aim to be competitive with the private sector. This is why we have some of the incentives such as the pay for performance to move up through that, to be competitive.

MR. MACKINNON: That's the issue - are we competitive?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I believe that we still have a way to go to be as competitive as we would like to be, but we're still in the ballpark.

MR. MACKINNON: What do you base that on? Do you have figures to show that you're below the private sector?

[Page 485]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The information that was requested by the Human Resources Committee will be provided, but it does show that we are behind the private sector at this point in time.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay, so you do have that information?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They're compiling that information now.

MR. MACKINNON: Can you give us an idea of approximately how far behind?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We are not behind in all job categories throughout government. I guess it would depend on which categories we're referring to and so on to say where we are exactly on that scale. Again, that information is being compiled for you.

MR. MACKINNON: How much time is left?

MR. CHAIRMAN: One minute.

MR. MACKINNON: When individuals are hired in some of these line departments that come in under your umbrella, for example, in the Premier's office, do staff in your Human Resources division participate in the screening process?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, that is a question that would be directed to the Premier's office. If it was requested that we have input into it to provide certain policies around specific hiring that would be provided to that office at that time.

MR. MACKINNON: So there's . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Premier's office, and again back to the Public Service accounts that are within here, each one is responsible for their own department.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, very much. The time for the Liberal caucus is finished. Does the government caucus have any questions? We'll move to the Official Opposition, your time is 3:12 p.m.

The honourable member for Dartmouth North.

MR. JERRY PYE: Thank you. First I want to thank our critic for this portfolio, the member for Cape Breton Nova, for allowing me to have the opportunity through you to speak to the minister responsible for the Public Service Commission.

[Page 486]

Madam Minister, first of all I want to say congratulations to you on your election campaign and I'm sure you have had the opportunity in the last several months to become familiar with your department. It's a pleasure to have the opportunity to speak to you with respect to a number of issues around the Public Service Commission.

I want to say to you that because this appears to be, in my opinion, a different approach with respect to the Public Service because a number of different entities fall under your purview, the questions that I present to you may very well fall to the minister responsible to that particular department. I'll try to keep it as generic to your portfolio as I possibly can.

I know that the minister is responsible for Human Resources, affirmative action through the Advisory Council on the Status of Women and so on because that is part of your portfolio. But I want to ask the minister questions around the employment of disabled persons. I know there's a disabled person in the Province of Nova Scotia and I do see that under your portfolio a number of ministerial departments are covered with respect to Human Rights, Aboriginal Affairs, African Nova Scotian Affairs and the Nova Scotia Advisory council on the Status on Women. Yet, there are no portfolios in there with respect to the Disabled Persons Commission. Can I ask if that is an error or if you don't see that as a part of your role or if there is something I should be made aware of?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The diversity consultant is the liaison between the Disabled Persons Commission and government.

MR. PYE: So there is someone in your office. Now, with respect to employment opportunities within the Civil Service Commission, I do know that I'm looking in this room, and disability is not always a visible thing. It can be in itself transparent. But when I look in this room I don't see many persons with disabilities. There are many persons with physical disabilities and many persons within the employ of government through the Civil Service Commission. If there are a number of individuals who are employed, who are they? Where are they? What are the numbers? Do they have an opportunity to move upward within the Civil Service Commission?

[3:15 p.m.]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: To date, there are 389 individuals with disabilities who are employed with the Civil Service that have self-identified. There may be more. That would be 5.43 per cent.

MR. PYE: A very small number. I guess I have a number of questions - the other is, where are they in the - can I use the term hierarchy - in the bureaucracy? Are they at the lower classification, technical skill or are they in the upper administrative pockets of the bureaucracy? I shouldn't use the term bureaucracy, but of the administration of government. It's too loose a term.

[Page 487]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We would have to do research within the departments and have the departments provide that information to us. But, again, it would depend on whether those individuals self-identified.

MR. PYE: Yes, but you have 5 per cent of self . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We have 389 that have self-identified.

MR. PYE: . . . 389 who have self-identified. Obviously you should be able to tell me where those self-identified 5 per cent are within the administrative structure of government.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That information we can and will provide to you.

MR. PYE: Minister, can I ask you if your department believes that's an appropriate number, 5 per cent of all the people employed? Would you like to see a larger number? Is there a specific number or is there a national statistical number that is covered by other levels of government that says we know that there's a real serious problem out there with the employability of persons with disabilities. We also know that it's government's obligation to make opportunities available to persons with disabilities. If, in fact, we do that for the Status of Women, if we do it for African Nova Scotians, we make sure that equality, fairness and dignity is an approach to this environment, then I think we need to know that this is something that covers the disabled persons' community as well.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We want to make sure that the groups are reflective of the community. I know there is a lot of work to be done in this area. We have percentages and we do know what the amount is across Nova Scotia and we do try to work towards reaching that objective. Again, we need individuals to self-identify. There's work to be done in this area, there definitely is.

MR. PYE: When the Civil Service Commission does hiring and carries out a hiring practice, I do know it states itself firmly as an affirmative action agency. In fact, it recognizes that there is - and I hope - preference given to persons with disability providing they meet the criteria of the employment ad that's placed forward. However, I do know - your department may not have - but I do know that the Premier has, and the Disabled Persons Commission has, and I do know that Community Services and probably the minister himself, have received letters from well-educated Nova Scotians who are disabled who do not get employment opportunities in government. Most often, rather than get an acceptance in government, they receive a letter saying that we've reviewed your application and you are not the successful or qualified applicant at this particular time.

I want to know, is there, within the department, an evaluation, an assessment sheet or some process when visible minorities or visible persons with disabilities as well make application to government, is there some kind of an evaluation status form re the response to the employment opportunities?

[Page 488]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: When individuals do contact the Web site, the site for hiring, they are encouraged to consult with a diversity consultant to see to it that they do receive the proper movement assistance up through the channels for hiring.

We're committed to creating a workplace that is free of discrimination and making sure there is equal opportunity to all who apply for jobs here. We're working towards these goals on many levels across government.

MR. PYE: Madam Minister, I would not expect any other response from you, because I think it's the response that I would get from government. My problem is, and I don't know if it's the problem of the Disabled Persons Commission but, based on the number of phone calls that I receive through my constituency office and the number of disabled people that I'm in contact with, my problem is I don't see that moving on a fast scale or being pushed forward as an objective of government. And this is the first time, I have to apologize to you, Madam Minister, that I've heard of a term and a titled person called a diversity consultant. As a matter of fact, I don't know how many people in the disabled community know that there's such a person as a diversity consultant, and that that diversity consultant can guide them through the process of employment opportunities. I think that's another thing that government needs to readily identify itself with and let people in the community know.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The information that comes out in the Opportunities Bulletin, on the very first page there's an opportunity for individuals to provide the information, and the affirmative action policy is something that we do stress on the cover page of this for individuals who do require additional assistance. If we do need to provide more information in this respect, then that should be the direction that this government is taking, because it definitely is a priority of this government, to bring these numbers up to the averages across the province.

MR. PYE: So you will take my advice to you and suggest that this ought to be more transparent, and somehow incorporate it within the ads that go out to individuals, go out from your government.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, I think that's very good advice.

MR. PYE: Also, is it through the Public Service Commission that ads for employment go out? Are you the minister responsible for all the ads, be it the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, be it Justice, be it whatever the department is? Is it the Public Service Commission's responsibility to see that those ads for employment opportunities go through?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Each department is responsible to post their own through the Career Beacon Web site.

[Page 489]

MR. PYE: So these go through the Web site, and obviously are monitored by the Public Service Commission, by you, the Minister responsible for the Public Service Commission.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, we do monitor that.

MR. PYE: Yes, and I would assume you monitor it because all the portfolios are legislated under your portfolio with respect to costs, and the department costs with respect to Public Service employees. I'm not making myself clear on this.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No.

MR. PYE: With respect to the employment opportunities through the Civil Service, they are monitored by you even though they may be employed, let's say, with Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, you're responsible for the collective agreement, the administration of that and so on. Is that not your department?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MR. PYE: That would be yours. When people have the opportunity to seek employment through your department or have the opportunity, at least, to apply to the ads and so on, is there any relationship between your office and the Disabled Persons Commission or any correspondence that takes place with respect to the Disabled Persons Commission assisting individuals in guiding through the opportunities of employment through your office, and your department, I should say?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There is a liaison between the diversity consultant and the Disabled Persons Commission, and there is also a liaison with the inventory and the disabled. We keep a list of disabled persons on record. We have an inventory. We do work with those individuals, with the diversity consultant, and the Disabled Persons Commission.

MR. PYE: Further - and I don't think this happens and there's probably a very good reason for it not happening - the Disabled Persons' Commission, as you know, is a branch of government that's funded by government to enhance the quality of life, employment opportunities and a whole host of issues which arise under the umbrella of disabled persons. I'm wondering, when you do the interview of applicants for employment opportunities, is there a representative from the Disabled Persons' Commission who sits in on those interviews?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The diversity consultant would be the individual who would normally sit in on those interviews, and they do have that connection with the Disabled Persons Commission and they work closely together.

[Page 490]

MR. PYE: Yes, that's refreshing to hear. You just tweaked my brain here, as a matter of fact. That's why you would have the diversity consultant, to make sure that that follows through. The link and communication between the Disabled Persons Commission and/or disabled agencies out there in the community would be there through the diversity consultant to make sure that there's this measure of competency within the interviewing of the applicants who follow through, so that they can be assured that the person was not denied the employment opportunity because they were disabled, that there were other factors involved.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That is the role of the diversity consultant, to see to it that these things are taken into consideration.

MR. PYE: Madam Minister, I had not intended to take a long time on this, and I won't take a long time, but I do want to say to you that the 5 per cent number of individuals employed within the Public Service Commission is a significantly low number of disabled persons. I would hope that you would certainly increase that number, and I would even go so far as to say that the number should be reflective of the population of the province. I do believe, depending on who you talk to, that that number is significantly high. It's somewhere between 21 per cent and 25 per cent of the Nova Scotia population that's considered to have a disability of varying degrees. That's why I said earlier that you can have a disability that's not transparent, that's not visible and it can still be physical. I think if we look at those numbers and we try to achieve a higher number than 5 per cent and that the liaison continues on with the disabled community and particularly the Disabled Persons Commission, which has the closest alliance with the government, that we can achieve a more reasonable number than the 5 per cent.

[3:30 p.m.]

Also, I would impress upon you, where your department or your ministry has the opportunity to be an equal opportunity employer, when you tender contracts and so on and so forth, that you do play a more aggressive role in those individuals who receive business from government to create opportunities for persons with disabilities as well.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, that's very good advice and advice that I am working with at this point in time. The population figure that we have across Nova Scotia, the community percentage number, we have it at 13.4 per cent for disabled persons. We are not representative of that figure. We know that we have a lot of work to do here, and we will continue to strive towards reaching those objectives.

MR. PYE: Mr. Chairman, through you to the minister I would say to the minister, look, if in fact the number is 13 per cent, then I'm receptive to at least achieving that level, and then talking to the disabled community with respect to their definition and numbers as well. But if that's a number from your department and that's a number that you're willing to work to achieve, then I can expect better results to come the next fiscal year, with respect to seeing more opportunities.

[Page 491]

Again, Mr. Chairman, I do think the minister said she would provide me with numbers within the department of those 389 who are employed, and their status within the Civil Service with respect to - I don't want to use the term ranking - classifications. I want to thank you, Madam Minister and Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I will provide that information to you in a timely manner.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park.

MS. DIANA WHALEN: I have a few questions. It has come to me a little quicker than I expected. I thought that the full hour was going to my colleagues beside me. However, I would like to get into a couple of things. There was one thing - I've just been reading your opening statement, and I wasn't able to be here when you made it, so I wanted to make sure I knew what had been presented. There's an interesting thing in there on training and the e-learning initiative. I wonder if you could tell me something about that e-learning initiative. It's $100,000 that's being allocated to that new way of training our staff.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It will give employees the opportunity to be able to do certain training requirements on-line.

MS. WHALEN: Can you give me some idea of what kind of programs will be offered?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Some of the programs that would be available on-line would be occupational health and safety, management orientation, employee orientation, and policy training.

MS. WHALEN: Is there any evidence that the employees will use this? Have we tested it any way first, to see what the pickup rate would be? Perhaps this is a pilot itself, I'm not sure if this is the full thing.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Transportation and Public Works, we did test it with them, and it was very well received there. Also with Communications Nova Scotia, we had positive feedback from them. It's also very good for the rural parts of Nova Scotia, to be able to access these programs on-line.

MS. WHALEN: That makes really good sense, especially the rural part of it. I was thinking, when I was a city councillor at HRM, they had some e-learning opportunities. I found it personally difficult to access them because of time constraints, and I thought maybe some employees do better when they actually have a chance to go out to a training centre and be away from their workplace. Sometimes that might work better. That's why I wondered if you had tested it.

[Page 492]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We would like to have a mix within that gives everyone the opportunity to choose which one best suits them for their time frame.

MS. WHALEN: I think the orientation idea is good, too, when you get new employees. That means everybody can get the same exposure to what your standards are and aspects of employment. Also, I'm very happy to hear you're looking at occupational health and safety because, clearly, workplace safety is so important. We've had a number of times lately that we've been talking to people from the Workers' Compensation Board and the need for enhanced occupational health and safety in all areas. Certainly the Public Service Commission is no exception.

I would like to go down in the training area and just talk a little bit. I had some of these questions that we did talk a little bit about when members of the Public Service Commission were at the Human Resources Committee not too long ago. In training, I noticed you say it comes under the Innovation and Growth Division, and what I wanted to pursue a little bit was the percentage - if I could get some facts and figures, I guess - of our total Public Service expenditure and how much we spend on training. What's our percentage relationship? It comes back to whether or not there should be a legislated percentage amount that we dedicate to training. Just to understand what we currently spend. If you don't have the percentage, even the dollar figure, I guess, vis-a-vis the total.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: At this point in time we do not have a legislated amount that is put forward, but across government as a whole it's in the vicinity of $900,000 that is spent on training, corporate training. Departments also do a certain amount of training on their own that would not be inclusive in that figure.

MS. WHALEN: Would that be more on-the-job training, where it would just be mentoring or people already in the department helping each other?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MS. WHALEN: So, no additional cost, I guess that's what I'm asking.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, and also some technical skills training would be in the department.

MS. WHALEN: So there could be a little bit of extra cost actually in the training area.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Departments would have their own training budget, also.

MS. WHALEN: Do you think we might be around the $1 million level then? It's a bit speculative, I know.

[Page 493]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I would think that overall we would be above that. Inclusive with the departments, we would be above the $1 million.

MS. WHALEN: I think that everybody would agree that training is a really important component of job satisfaction and the growth and improvement of the workforce. I would like to see us have a commitment. I know in our discussions at the Human Resources Committee it was said that it appears that the staff are happy, that across the board people are fairly happy with their opportunities for training, but I think it's really important that we look at how much we've committed and see that it's adequate. Again, I'm really looking forward to the response from the survey that you've done of all employees, because that probably will give us a firmer idea of whether there's any dissatisfaction or how much satisfaction with the amount of training opportunities. I really put a lot of emphasis on it, and I am just exploring whether or not it wouldn't be something good to set a target, as they do in some other jurisdictions for training. I don't know if we're there yet.

If other provinces have a target, I think they say something like 3 per cent of their Public Service, probably the salaries, 3 per cent of that salary amount, would go to training. I may be slightly off, I think it's in that range. So if we're spending roughly $1 million, what would our total spending on the Public Service salaries be? I'm sure it's in here, it's just not compiled, it's department by department. Do we have some idea of the total cost of the Civil Service that we have?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The 5,500 of the 7,000 within the bargaining unit make up approximately $230 million. The excluded number, I wouldn't have that number before me at this point in time. Out of 5,500, the $230 million worth of payroll.

MS. WHALEN: Okay. On the gender breakdown that I had asked for, the gender and age breakdown, I had a total Civil Service of about 7,130. It may not be right up-to-date. It's probably a year old or so.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Sounds right.

MS. WHALEN: So that gives us a relative sense. Well, that's good. We can work on that a little bit to see. Well, I appreciate that and I just think that commitment to training clearly is a priority for me and I'm just letting you know I think it's a good thing for us to do in terms of embellishing the Civil Service and making it a better place to work. I think that it's a key area of importance to young people entering the workforce as well, to continue that, plus we're talking about lifelong learning in all areas.

Could you tell me something about the Civil Service Master Agreement that's going to be one of the significant initiatives this year for the Public Service Commission?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: What specifically would you like to know about the collective agreement?

[Page 494]

MS. WHALEN: Is that all it is, is a collective agreement? That would tell me something right there. In your comments it just says, we'll be negotiating a Civil Service Master Agreement.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Covering eight of the nine Civil Service bargaining units, yes.

MS. WHALEN: Okay. I'm probably not as conversant with the bargaining units as some of my colleagues. I'll make it my business to know more about that. Thank you.

On the Career Starts and the Career Connects that we have, I gather which are ways to bring younger people or new people into government. I'm wondering what the numbers are. I was a little unclear about the number 16 given under Career Starts. Is that an annual figure or has that been a total?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That is an annual figure.

MS. WHALEN: That figure has been in place since 1999, is that right, as an annual target?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That number is 16 now but it was at eight in 1999 and we doubled that to 16, in 2002.

MS. WHALEN: Those people, those 16 a year, is there an age limit? Is there a criterion that they must be under a certain age to qualify?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They must be recent graduates in the last 12 to 18 months, or in the post-secondary education and be enrolled in the post-secondary education.

MS. WHALEN: So they may be Summer students who come in those four-month programs right?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Not this one, no. Not in the career.

MS. WHALEN: No? Under Career Starts, you have four programs; internship program, co-op employee program, Summer female mentorship and Summer diversities. Are the 16 included in all four of those? Are they divided between the four?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, that would only be the Career Starts.

MS. WHALEN: The Post-Secondary Internship Program?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

[Page 495]

MS. WHALEN: Can you give me some idea how many would come in on those four month ones which are clearly for university students in the Summer months?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Ten to 12, per year, for each program.

MS. WHALEN: For each program. So really 30 or 36 something like that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MS. WHALEN: Okay, that's good. It's still a pretty low number compared to a Civil Service of 7,000. I know that and I'm sure you do as well, Madam Minister. We'd love to see that expanded as well. On the executive recruitment I was pleased to see that you now have somebody within the Civil Service that can handle executive recruitment. That's a senior consultant that's been hired. Can you give me any idea if that person's remuneration would be commission based in any way, or maybe we would call it performance based? I don't really want to go down that road, just to let you know. Not in a big way.

[3:45 p.m.]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It is a salaried employee. That was part of the restructuring of the Public Service Commission.

MS. WHALEN: Okay. Now that we're doing that in-house, will that mean or signal that we are not going to be going outside for the executive searches for deputy ministers and so on, the senior ranking people, or most senior positions?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We do hope to see a reduction in that amount, but we also intend or speculate that we will be partnering with some of these firms so that we get the best possible candidates to fill the positions that are available.

MS. WHALEN: Is there any savings then really, for us in terms of engaging somebody who has the capability to do senior recruitment?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We certainly hope that will be the case that there will be a reduction in this figure, but this is a new position and we'll find out I guess as we proceed along this track. That is the intention, that we will see a reduction.

MS. WHALEN: Would there be an intent then when you look at a position, or maybe the job profile that you're about to fill, to kind of decide that's when we'll do entirely in-house, with this new person's capability, or share?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Each individual position will be looked at and then the criteria developed for that.

[Page 496]

MS. WHALEN: I think if you've hired somebody good in that position, it would be nice to be able to - I understand we want to get some confidence and maybe experience - rely solely on that person, because there is quite a huge cost as we've seen some various stories in the newspapers in the last while, not Civil Service jobs directly, but, hospitals and other places where there's a big cost to that kind of recruitment.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We hope that will be the case that it will be a cost savings to government and that we'll be able to do as much as possible in-house.

MS. WHALEN: Yes. I think it's the right direction to go. I would like to say that, definitely. Just on training I had a smaller question and that was with the training that's available, do you e-mail that out so that staff from across the Civil Service can choose to take some of the training options that come forward. Is it made available in every department and office and on e-mail?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, that is available to all employees.

MS. WHALEN: Okay, and then their departments are billed back as they take advantage of it.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MS. WHALEN: I was wondering if there's any training that's made available to elected officials? It's my opportunity to ask. (Laughter) I'd like to go.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There are leadership programs that are offered through the Public Service Commission, but to date, they have not been utilized by elected officials, no.

MS. WHALEN: Okay, but that might be a possibility?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There may be a possibility there, yes.

MS. WHALEN: Okay. We'll leave the door open on that. I just wondered because I hadn't been aware or we don't see the list of what's coming out, and it would be interesting even to see by e-mail, what kind of courses are offered, because there's so many different and new trends that come up and it would be interesting to see what our staff are actually being offered in terms of training opportunities to improve their performance.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That information is available on the Web site now.

MS. WHALEN: Okay. So we could look at that. Very good. Do we have any employees that we send back to university whose tuition we would pay so that they could perhaps get university training? I'm thinking of Master's in Public Administration as one idea.

[Page 497]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We've just completed the Master's in Public Administration with 75 of our employees over the last eight years. The final group just graduated last Fall.

MS. WHALEN: Do we have any idea about the retention after they do that degree?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Attrition within that has only been 1 per cent or 2 per cent. Most people enroll in the program to further themselves within the Civil Service.

MS. WHALEN: Would there be any agreement that they would have to stay a certain length of time or repay the cost of the training?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They are required to stay for two years after they complete their program or pay the full cost of the program.

MS. WHALEN: Of the very few who have left, have we chased them for that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, we have.

MS. WHALEN: My colleague used the word, deadbeat - deadbeat employees who have run out on us. (Laughter) No, no such thing. That's good, as long as we've been sort of on our toes, in terms of ensuring that that happens. There's another very good program at Mount Saint Vincent which is a Women in Management Program. I'm wondering if we've taken advantage of that, in terms of advancement or helping the skills development of women.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We do meet with the Mount regularly, and we promote the programs that they do have for women, regularly.

MS. WHALEN: Have we sponsored people to attend those programs?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That wouldn't be tracked corporately, it's done on a department-by-department basis.

MS. WHALEN: I understand they had some special arrangement recently for daycare managers, that they've taken in a large number in that program that are either private or publicly-operated daycares, so that those women - primarily women, I guess they're all women - can learn more of management. So they're attending that at very little cost to themselves. Would that be something the Public Service Commission would assist with, or do you think it's through another program entirely?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That's not something that's currently offered through the Public Service Commission.

[Page 498]

MS. WHALEN: It would be outside of your direct employees, I realize, so there may be another avenue. I do applaud it, I think it's an important thing to do. I just wondered if it somehow fell under your banner. You say you have sent people to this program, and can you give me numbers?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It would be department by department, and I do not have those numbers before me.

MS. WHALEN: Thank you for taking me back there. One of your comments in your opening remarks was that hiring freezes might create some instability in terms of job security, or people might not find the - I think you were saying it was bad for recruitment. Can you elaborate a little bit on that, what hiring freezes? I think perhaps we had one this past year when we were trying to save money during the year. Would you call that a hiring freeze?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I think that the hiring freezes - the hiring freezes I was referring to were the hiring freezes in the 1990s, where there were definite times in that period where we did not hire any individuals. I think the numbers, the stats that we have with our numbers 30 and under right now are definitely reflective of that.

MS. WHALEN: Possibly. In this past year, would you say that the directive was that there would be a hiring freeze following the need to save $32 million that came up in one of our quarterly reviews? The government saw that you weren't within target, in terms of coming up with a surplus for the year, so a number of measures were taken. One of them was to save $32 million. Was there a hiring freeze in effect for a short period of time even?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Each department was tasked with their own incentive to reduce their budget by a certain amount. How they did that was their own initiatives, what they put forward.

MS. WHALEN: So there wasn't consultation with the Public Service Commission, in terms of how they might manage that? We know that the largest share of our budgets are spent on salaries.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Each department was required to reduce their budget by a certain amount, and that was within the department, how they chose to do that.

MS. WHALEN: Do you have human resource specialists in each department who would have provided that kind of assistance?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Besides the Public Service Commission, each department has an HR CSU, or departments go together to have a CSU. They work within those groups to provide that information to the department, as required.

[Page 499]

MS. WHALEN: You could assume that they might have conferred with them, that would make sense, that there would have been some consultation . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Absolutely.

MS. WHALEN: . . . as they are there as a resource. That helps. I think that some of the information I saw, on how the response would be for saving the $32 million would be that they would leave some of the positions vacant. There was certainly nobody who was let go, but maybe positions that weren't filled would be left that way until a new fiscal year. I think you could probably confirm that was done in a fairly wide measure.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, that was up to the individual departments, whether they chose programs or staffing or how they actually did whatever. That was the individual department's decision.

MS. WHALEN: I can certainly understand why there are fewer younger people, if we did have very low intake of new people during that period of time, but I would suggest that nobody would be skeptical about job security because we've been very good about not having any massive layoffs. I do commend you for this particular year in this budget, which I know is very difficult for the government, that you were able to avoid and avert the need for any large-scale reduction in workforce, that kind of scenario, which has happened in other places. I know that's difficult, but I would think that over the years we've demonstrated there's a great commitment to the employees within the Public Service Commission. That's more of a comment - you don't have to answer that unless you want to.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That is the message that we're trying to deliver.

MS. WHALEN: And I think it should be. I think we have to give credit where it's due and acknowledge that it's been a difficult process. Perhaps you could tell me what percentage of our total spending is on employees? I think it's a huge percentage of our total budget. I think that would be a figure of interest to all of us.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It's somewhere around 63 per cent of programs.

MS. WHALEN: That's of program spending.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, program spending.

MS. WHALEN: I might even have thought it would be higher, but I know there are a lot of other things that we have to acquire as well to deliver the services that we have. I think that's very significant, and we need to have that commitment to our staff, that every time financial pressures arise the Public Service will not be threatened each time. Over a fairly long period of time I think there's been stability in the workforce, and I think you would agree with that.

[Page 500]

Perhaps we could talk some about attrition and retention, because that kind of follows this. Can you tell me, the number of people who would be leaving, what kind of percentage we would have leaving each year, and whether it is in balance? Maybe comment a little bit about our retention levels. That's often an indicator, obviously, of whether or not there's problems in the work place. You might talk about the number who retire vis-a-vis the number who leave. Perhaps the two figures.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I will have that here in a moment.

MS. WHALEN: I think that at the Human Resources Committee we were told that there was an almost equal number to the number who retire. If I'm correct on that, if you have the retirement numbers, that may be very close to the numbers who leave otherwise.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Over the course of the last two years, approximately 150 employees have retired. Within the next couple of years, we anticipate that number to go to 250 and 300 employees per year.

MS. WHALEN: Would you estimate that there's an almost equal number who leave for other factors, for other career opportunities or personal reasons?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: At least double.

MS. WHALEN: At least double - so it's two to one?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MS. WHALEN: Would that be pretty indicative of a corporate environment in the private sector?

[4:00 p.m.]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Within the retirement group, I guess the larger number definitely would be greater within government, within the Public Service.

MS. WHALEN: Is that because people stay longer with government? What would the reason be behind that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We have an average age within the Public Service of 45, and within the management level right now it's 47. That dictates the number of people who will retire over the next few years.

MS. WHALEN: So you're suggesting probably our average age would be higher.

[Page 501]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Our average age would definitely be higher than most would have.

MS. WHALEN: In the private sector. That's a good explanation. That makes sense. I wanted to ask a little bit about our secession planning and how we're looking - and that follows directly from the idea that we have an older workforce and certainly an older management level, if 47 is the average age of management. I'm wondering if you could sort of describe to me what you're doing in the way of secession planning, what kind of programs we have in place?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There's the Leadership Development Program, the Leadership Continuity Program, the Career Assignment Program, and also then the four through the Career Starts that we mentioned previously.

MS. WHALEN: With the Career Starts, I don't think that one's really applicable in this case because I'm talking about getting people in at a higher level or developing them at the highest level. So Career Starts would perhaps be middle management, wouldn't it, coming in at a middle level?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The 16 individuals who come in under that program could be fast-tracked to management positions, depending on their qualifications when they enter.

MS. WHALEN: So it's like a management trainee program, like you might have in a bank or another area?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MS. WHALEN: I'm really interested in how we're going to address the need at the very top, at the executive director and director and deputy minister levels, those kinds of levels. Perhaps you could tell me what number of our senior management, and I'm not sure if I've captured everybody who would be considered senior, but what percentage are due to retire very soon, let's say in the next five years?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: In the next five years, in the core number of 200 in the senior officials, approximately 34 per cent to 37 per cent are eligible to retire.

MS. WHALEN: Within five years?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Within five years.

MS. WHALEN: And do you feel you have an adequate pool from which to draw for the next generation, for those ones moving into that level, who are internal, who can move up?

[Page 502]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The feeder group that we refer to as the mid-manager base, we feel we have a solid mid-manager base in place now and that these individuals will be able to step into those positions in the years to come.

MS. WHALEN: Do you have a way to identify them early, so that they can be - I don't even know if it's informal, than an informal mechanism to identify people who should receive that extra training or mentorship that would really allow them to learn the kind of decision-making and control skills that they'll need?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Under the Leadership Continuity Program, we use the federal government assessment centre to assess the potential of these candidates.

MS. WHALEN: I'm interested in that. Can you explain a little bit about what the federal government assessment centre is, do they go away to be assessed? What is it? Maybe it's on-line.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It's done locally, and it's a one- to two-day assessment. they assess competencies, and it's done through a personal psychology centre.

MS. WHALEN: Would that help candidates who might be identified to take an MPA, for example? Your Master's of Public Admin?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No. Most likely the Leadership Training Program, it would lead them towards those.

MS. WHALEN: I'm just curious, you were able to tell me how many take an MPA that I would gather that the Public Service Commission pays for or directs, but the other programs, like the Women in Management, you don't have control over, you say that's department by department. Can you explain why there's the difference?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Through each department, through the human resource coordinator, they're able to take these training opportunities that you referred to. The MPA Program was part of the corporate business plan. That's offered across government, corporately.

MS. WHALEN: When was that first offered, the MPA opportunity?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It was over the course of eight years for these individuals. So eight years ago, I guess, is when we started.

MS. WHALEN: It sounds like it was sort of a deliberate initiative to upgrade the overall skills level of senior management.

[Page 503]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It was to develop public policy expertise within our departments and leadership skills.

MS. WHALEN: That's very good. I like that. I'm interested particularly in women and the percentage that we might have of women in that senior management core. I think you indicated you have about 200 senior - I'm gathering that's your top-level managers across the board. How many women would be representative in that group?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Across the Public Service, 57 per cent of the employees are women. The actual amount in the management classification, I would have to get that for you.

MS. WHALEN: Nobody knows?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Maybe not. In the MCP pay plan, there's 44 per cent female; the clerical, there's 93 per cent; the professional, 51 per cent; technical 27 per cent.

MS. WHALEN: Could you read that just once more for my benefit, please?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The professional group would be 51 per cent.

MS. WHALEN: It's 51 per cent, professionals.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The clerical group would be 93 per cent. The MCP group would be 44 per cent, and the technical would be 27 per cent.

MS. WHALEN: On that MCP group, is that the 200 we're talking about? Are there 200 members of that group?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The MCP group is the 1,100 that we spoke of earlier, and that includes the supervisory and support individuals.

MS. WHALEN: Support but not clerical.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, clerical would be separate.

MS. WHALEN: What would the difference be between clerical and support?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It could be administrative support, but they would be individuals who would be excluded from the bargaining unit.

MS. WHALEN: I think it's a pretty reasonable question to find out how many of the 200 you can identify of your senior management are women, and, really, from what we've seen at the Public Accounts Committee and a few other places there are women deputy

[Page 504]

ministers, I'm aware of that, and Finance, which is the area that I am critic for, has both a woman as an assistant deputy minister and a deputy minister so I know they're there, I just want to know whether they're equally represented and how we're looking at moving younger women into those positions over time. It would be great to find out if there isn't a huge disparity, if it's similar to 44 per cent or 50 per cent, something like that. So I think, if I could, I would like to ask that that be made available to members of the Legislature.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That's a very good question and I would be pleased to provide you with that information.

MS. WHALEN: That's good. I think sometimes with women there have to be some special programs in terms of identifying some senior levels that you believe they're capable of moving into and helping them to chart a career path towards that. I think that the number of women sitting in the Legislature is kind of an example of that - that sometimes you need to identify the opportunities and maybe have mentorship and ways to help women to aspire to those roles. Sometimes it does require some specific programs in place although things have improved and changed quite a lot in the last little while.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess one of the initiatives of the Advisory Council on the Status of Women that we've put forward is the initiative for a women's campaign school that will be upcoming in the next few months, that we're working on developing right now, with hopes to increase those numbers.

MS. WHALEN: In the Legislature?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Well, actually across government, the ABCs, the municipal, provincial and federal levels.

MS. WHALEN: And then you'll help us change the way we do ABCs as well, I hope, because a lot of women aren't getting appointed to agencies, boards and commissions and perhaps not enough are applying. I think the level of applications is lower as well.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I think that a lot of it is we need to educate the individuals into believing that, yes, they can apply.

MS. WHALEN: That's right and that the opportunities are there.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: And we have made some changes in that direction.

MS. WHALEN: That's good because I sit on that committee, the Human Resources Committee, and it's sometimes discouraging to see how few women are being appointed, especially to the more high profile boards if I might say so. Women are applying for the district health authorities and a lot of community boards, but they don't go on the World Trade Centre, they don't go on the Bridge Commission, they don't go on the ones that pay

[Page 505]

a per diem or have the high profile, I guess, attention that you would find. Those ones tend to be a lot of men. So I think that we need to look at having more women on more powerful boards as well. So that's another issue, but I know we've talked about diversity and we've talked about disabilities and it's important to include women.

I think it's a good time to move to the Status of Women if we could and talk a little bit about that. Just as a starter, and this is partly in terms of my education and perhaps the education of the other members of this committee who are here today, would be to find out more about your role as the Minister responsible for the Advisory Council on the Status of Women and really what resources you have available and what influence you're able to exert as the Minister responsible for the Status of Women - just so that we have a reasonable expectation of what it is you are able to do, what you feel is within your mandate and so on?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Well, part of that mandate is to make sure that the concerns of women are taken into account in government work, to listen to the concerns of women directly or through the council, to refer issues to the council for their advice and input, and to take part in the federal-provincial-territorial forum of the Status of Women Ministers, and to share approaches on a national basis also. One example for that would have been the Vote for Women Campaign School that we did attend and the different publications that were put forward this year. The common-law publication was one example of that and there have been other publications in the past and there will be other ones that will be coming forward.

MS. WHALEN: That sounds good. So really the resource that you would rely on as the minister would be the separate office, that Advisory Council on the Status of Women?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MS. WHALEN: And that's not a government department. Would you define that as arm's length or would you define yourself as a government department or office?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It was the Advisory Council on the Status of Women Act that enabled this body to be here and it advises us on all issues relating to women's issues across the province.

MS. WHALEN: Can you give some other agencies that it might be similar to, or offices that it might be similar to?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Human Rights Commission.

MS. WHALEN: The Human Rights Commission, so it's stand-alone, a separate office completely, it's not nestled in any other department and you have a certain amount of autonomy then within that, or I would say quite a significant autonomy?

[Page 506]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess one of the significant things that the council can do is to put out reports and publications on its own. So that is quite a substantial amount of information that they're able to do on their own.

MS. WHALEN: I should have this handy, but could you tell me the staffing level and the resources that we have for the department and, yes, maybe we'll start with this year's?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The complement is 7.8 FTEs.

MS. WHALEN: And the budget to operate the office?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It is $756,000 which is the same as last year's budget.

MS. WHALEN: Yes, I did want to ask historically how that has been. Can you tell me when the office was first established?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: 1977.

MS. WHALEN: Actually, as we're talking, I'm reminded that you have a separate board that actually the office would report to the board, the women from across the province. Now, maybe you could explain the governance structure then just for our own clarification? I am aware that you have representatives from across the province who do come together so what are they doing?

[4:15 p.m.]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The council is appointed and they elect their own chair and the staff are civil servants.

MS. WHALEN: Yes, because those women who come from across the province, then they're all part of the council, that is the board?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That is part of the council that is appointed through the ABCs.

MS. WHALEN: And Ms. Neumann who is with you today is the executive director?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: She is the executive director.

MS. WHALEN: Then she's the top employee who helps to further their mission, is that right? Okay. For those appointments for the board, is that one of the boards that would come before the agencies, boards and commissions where women can apply?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

[Page 507]

MS. WHALEN: I haven't seen any in the last eight months.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: You will shortly.

MS. WHALEN: Shortly, okay, thanks, I've been on the lookout to see if they do come up.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They will be coming.

MS. WHALEN: Can you tell me whether you get a good number of applicants when the ads go out for that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, we do get quite a cross-section, we get a large number, and we do get a diverse group that does apply which is very good.

MS. WHALEN: Yes, it is good because some of our agencies, boards and commissions, we've been discussing at the Human Resources Committee, is that the ads don't seem to be, people aren't aware of them. They usually go in as one big block ad for something, I don't know, there are over 100, I think, agencies that are shown on that and they haven't often reached the group we might want, particularly young people. We know that young people aren't aware of it, I'm thinking of young professionals, but they're not seeing these ads so I wasn't sure if you were getting a good response. So I'm glad to hear.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: As far as the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, we are getting a very good response.

MS. WHALEN: That's very good. Now, 7.8 FTEs, are they all focused here in metro? I know you have a main office here.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There are two half-time positions, one of them in Amherst and one in Digby, and the rest are focused here out of the Halifax office.

MS. WHALEN: Where would the two part-timers work, through which office would they go to do their work?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: In Amherst it's at the Cumberland Regional Economic Development Agency that they work out of and it's the Provincial Building in Digby.

MS. WHALEN: So the REDA which would be a good fit with community economic development as well. I'm actually quite excited to hear that you have representation in two of the regions of the province. Are there any plans to try to extend that to Cape Breton, for example, or somewhere else in the province as well, the South Shore perhaps?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Not at this time.

[Page 508]

MS. WHALEN: Is it a question of budget availability that would prohibit it?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, it is at this point in time.

MS. WHALEN: So there would be interest. It has been successful, I guess, is what I'm asking, to have these two positions in other locations. If you're satisfied with it, it would be a good model.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I think that the two positions that we have are working out very well and if we could spread those out across the province, it would definitely be an asset.

MS. WHALEN: That's good. That's certainly something that I would support, having visited a number of the other regions of the province and knowing how people feel, that they're far from some of the support services and informational services that are available. I think that's very good.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: But from a volunteer basis, our council members do a very good job and they are representative from across the province.

MS. WHALEN: But they could benefit by having some staff that might be able to put on programs or extend that.

One of the things that has struck me - and this is just in my role as the critic for the Status of Women - is the fact that you have that responsibility, but the Department of Community Services has control of the transition houses and the women's centres. I'm wondering if there's a different model that's in place anywhere else that we might know of where the Status of Women or the Advisory Council could have more of that control and that budget could rest with an office that really was promoting those services that are unique to women.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: This is an advisory group only. The service component is provided through Community Services, as you mentioned. Apparently, it has been tried and this is the model that seems to work best.

MS. WHALEN: So we're satisfied? That's what we're saying. It would seem to me that it's difficult - I'm trying to put myself a little bit in your shoes, being the minister responsible and wanting to promote women and the issues that are important to women - that you don't have direct control over that budget. You're not in a position, I would guess, other than trying to influence your colleagues to improve funding for women, for women's centres and for transition houses. Those services are just for women, they're so unique to our needs and women and their children, I should say.

[Page 509]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We do have a very good working relationship with the Department of Community Services. Information that I do take forward is definitely part of the decision-making process that they make before they move on. Consultation does happen.

MS. WHALEN: As an advisory group, would the advisory group be offering any assistance to the programming in a women's centre or the services that would be made available through that budget and through those - I won't call them offices, they're really places where people can drop in and receive help. I'm wondering if there's any connection is really what I'm exploring.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We do work jointly on some projects with the individual homes, but one thing that we need to be clear on is that the transition houses are local and the council is province-wide. We need to look at the broader picture, but there are different programs that we do partner across the province with these as the agency that we work closely with to provide different things.

MS. WHALEN: I wonder if you could provide just a couple of examples of the types of programs or projects you might be having an overlapping interest in.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Transition to employment would be one.

MS. WHALEN: Within metro there are no women's centres, as I've been told, a couple I think at the universities - Dalhousie has a women's centre, but none that are available for the women in the general public here in Halifax and the metro area. Can you let me know if you think that there is a need in our metro area or if it has been identified?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There had been one in Halifax in the past, but it closed. There are a variety of other agencies that do provide similar services here in metro - like the YWCA.

MS. WHALEN: Okay. I realize if you live in metro, it is the centre of government and there would be, perhaps, more resources available. I've been struck by the uniqueness of the women's centres themselves and I've visited the one in your area in Bridgewater and it does provide a really wide-ranging service in terms of parenting and living with stress or poverty issues, again, job related and housing issues. I don't think we have anything that's under one roof. With the women's centres, they're not intimidating places so I'm really referring to that. Can you tell me when the one closed in metro?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: In 1978.

MS. WHALEN: Oh, that's too long. I think we need one, I'll just go on record as saying I think we need one somewhere in metro to help with a lot of the issues that come up at a transition house, for example, where they know that the women need support and need training. Again, I think oftentimes the women who need it most are somewhat intimidated or

[Page 510]

are unable to access some of the other services that might be available. Although, I think the YWCA is a fine, fine example of a good approachable organization.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The phone line is run as an information and referral service here in metro.

MS. WHALEN: At the YWCA?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, at the Advisory Council on the Status of Women.

MS. WHALEN: So that helps to take up some of the slack as well. I don't think I have very many minutes left and I'd like to know a little bit about some of the main programs of the Advisory Council on the Status of Women here in metro that perhaps extend to the rural areas as well.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The main things that would be done here would be the research and policy perspective and also the information and education that is provided across.

MS. WHALEN: The kind of publications that you would have coming from the Advisory Council would go out perhaps through women's networks and the YWCA and all kinds of community networks in order to reach the . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes and it's partnerships with different organizations to release. I refer to the book on the common-law that was a three-way partnership. We also partner with libraries and so on.

MS. WHALEN: Would any of the research and policy actually come back and have an impact perhaps on government policy and on programs and initiatives that might have a positive or a negative impact on women and their families?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Absolutely.

MS. WHALEN: Do a lot of them focus on poverty and poverty issues?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Most of them do.

MS. WHALEN: Would it be fair to say that you, as the minister responsible for the Status of Women, might actually contact the Advisory Council when there were new initiatives being planned to just get some further advice on how something might be impacting women? Sometimes the connection's apparent and sometimes it's not so apparent.

[Page 511]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There are regular requests that would come to the Status of Women and if not directly from me, they would come from the departments themselves also.

MS. WHALEN: So there is a good exchange of information because I think it's very important where you don't have a department, you need some people with that expertise to help guide us. Again, public policy can make a huge difference, sometimes very much the negative on women, whether it's taxation policies, you name it. User fees, for example, might have a negative impact particularly on women. Insurance might have a bad impact on women - there has been a lot of talk about the gender issue about women and insurance but if we decide to have no gender in insurance across the board, that gender won't be a factor, it will be women of every age that suffer the most. All women will see an increase in their insurance. It's important that we look at that because up to now women have had an advantage, but it's been a verifiable advantage because it's actuarially based, the fact that we have fewer accidents and are at lower risk.

I think of that because it came up during our Fall session when insurance was being looked at. I say that as a parent of both a boy and a girl, so I'm caught both ways. But, I think that women of all ages, even older women, will pay dearly if we get rid of that completely. I just raise that because those are the kind of policy issues that you at least need to be aware of. We may choose, after everything is balanced, to say that's the fairest or the best way to go, but we should do it with full knowledge about what the impact is on women.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: All the policy briefs are available on the Web site for the Status of Women when that information comes across. So it is available on-line.

[4:30 p.m.]

MS. WHALEN: So it's not just direct to you?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, it is on-line.

MS. WHALEN: Okay, well, that's even better, I didn't know that. I think that it's important that, again, transparency is important, too, but I also think it's important that you have access to that on a case-by-case basis as things are coming up and I'm glad I got to mention the insurance one to you because now you might keep that in mind, as well, as you go. Do I have very many minutes left?

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have approximately a minute and a half.

MS. WHALEN: A minute and a half. I have one question back at the Civil Service again. I'm wondering, is per capita spending here in Nova Scotia, this relates a bit to my cap that I wear as the Finance Critic, but in Nova Scotia on a per capita basis we have the lowest spending per capita on programs and I'm wondering how we compare then in terms of the

[Page 512]

size of our Civil Service, if we can look at that, or if we can't get an answer today, it's just a big question that I think we need to look at.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Well, that's something that I can get you the information for, but nothing that we have available today.

MS. WHALEN: Was the question clear so that you know what I'm looking for?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, they're asking you to restate it.

MS. WHALEN: Restate it, okay, because I thought perhaps it might have been missed. I was saying the Centre for Policy Alternatives, they did an alternative budget. They've done that a number of years. In the one they did this year it shows the per capita spending per province, how much governments spend on program delivery, ours is the lowest in Canada. It's something like $7,000, I think, per person. It's in the $7,000 range, but we're much lower than other provinces. I'm wondering how our Civil Service is reflected within that? Do we have a proportionately lower Civil Service, I mean numbers and dollars devoted to our Civil Service? It would just let me know whether it's in balance.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, that information we can provide to you.

MS. WHALEN: Very good. One other question that I had asked at the committee level which I think is really important, I will ask that just before I close, and that was the age group between 30 and 40, it's also not highly represented in our breakdown. I think we've got 20 per cent of our employees, 20.7 per cent I had on my records, about 1,400 people employed in the 20 to 30-year-old age group, and I have in some of my reading and studies been made aware of the fact that that's an age group that very often gets their employment through contract and term positions because they have had the misfortune of following baby boomers into the workplace and, as a result, it follows a little bit on a question asked by Russell MacKinnon, but he was asking how many do we have on term and on contract. I would like to extend that and know what their ages are on those terms and contracts. Some of them may be interesting because they are retired people who have come back and it may also be interesting to see if we have a strong representation in that 30 to 40-year-old age group.

It sounds like you're doing well with succession planning and identifying people to take those senior roles, but it has been suggested that in many private and public sector the 30 to 40-year-old age group has not been properly groomed to take their rightful place in senior management because they've been under-represented and coming in as term and contract, they don't get training and other opportunities. So I wanted to know if you could take the information you're getting on term and contract and provide it as well by age group?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: And, again, that information will be made available to you.

[Page 513]

MS. WHALEN: And the last is by department if we could, too?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The time for the Liberal caucus has finished. Does the Progressive Conservative caucus have any questions? If not at this time, we will go to the NDP caucus.

The honourable member for Cape Breton Nova.

MR. GORDON GOSSE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to turn the floor over to my colleague, the member for Halifax Atlantic.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.

MS. MICHELE RAYMOND: Madame, vous parlez français? But you do know though there are a large number of people of French origin and people whose first language is French in the province?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MS. RAYMOND: And I'm simply wondering what portion of the Civil Service actually is able to speak French and to render service in French if necessary?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There is a French Language Coordinators Committee and that's led by the Office of Acadian Affairs. They are currently studying to see what those numbers are, but they're not available at this time. The survey is nearly complete, but not . . .

MS. RAYMOND: When was the survey commissioned and when will it be complete?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They hope to have the results by June.

MS. RAYMOND: And it was commissioned how long ago?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It started in January.

MS. RAYMOND: It started in January.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Each department is responsible to bring this forward.

MS. RAYMOND: Okay, if I could have a copy of that when it's ready, I would be very grateful, is that possible?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

[Page 514]

MS. RAYMOND: Working on the results from that, what exactly will you be doing to engage more members of the Civil Service either who are already able to speak French or who are interested in undertaking training?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Part of the French Language Coordinators' role will be to see where we proceed from here and also the Office of Acadian Affairs I know is working in this regard, too.

MS. RAYMOND: Well, I guess it will be just about ready by the time the Congres Mondial arrives here because there will be 0.5 million people returning to Nova Scotia, you know, who are French speakers and I think it would probably be a very good idea even if in the following six weeks you can scramble as many together as possible and in general terms as well, I mean I would certainly like to recommend that this be a significant effort. As you know, a number of other provinces with smaller French populations have made really great strides in ensuring that people are able to receive service in that language.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: And we are working co-operatively with the Office of Acadian Affairs.

MS. RAYMOND: There is one other question which is, do you have a budget identified for recruitment of French language speakers?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, we do not.

MS. RAYMOND: Will you be doing that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Once the study is complete and we see where the gap is, then we'll be taking different initiatives to move forward on where we need to be in relation to that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No further questions from the NDP caucus, we will move to the Liberal caucus.

The honourable member for Cape Breton West.

MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I want to go back to the last set of questions I was asking just before my time had run out with reference to the Premier's office. I'm not asking for the minister to dwell on issues that are normally dealt with within the Premier's office but, specifically, can the minister confirm as to whether her office has been asked at any point in the last year to review any applications for employment within the Premier's office?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, it's not a role that we would have taken.

[Page 515]

MR. MACKINNON: No. What about some of the other divisions that are outlined under the Public Service, such as EMO, are you undertaking to do any screening for employment in that division?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: In which division?

MR. MACKINNON: EMO, Emergency Measures Organization.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The departments are responsible for doing their own screening and recruitment process.

MR. MACKINNON: That's correct.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Through the HR CSU that they're responsible to.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes, but isn't there a representative from the Human Resources division who sits on the screening panel?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No.

MR. MACKINNON: No. Are you sure?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Policy is set by the Public Service Commission and that is then transferred to the HR CSU that would be responsible for that department in the hirings.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes, but isn't that individual from CSU actually an employee of the Human Resources division of the Public Service Commission.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, they are employees of the department.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay, but, the terms of reference for their employment, they essentially follow the guidelines of the rules of engagement for employment set out by the Public Service Commission - correct?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We do provide the general criteria. There's expertise available within the CSUs that is able to provide that for each individual department.

MR. MACKINNON: Is there a manual or a booklet or some type of a document that lays out the hiring policies of government?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The policy manual referred to as the Manual 500 is available on-line and this would be where most of these policies on recruitment would come from.

[Page 516]

MR. MACKINNON: What about the policies that are not within that manual? You've indicated what most of the policies are. What about the other policies?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Policies at the department level would still be consistent with Manual 500.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay. Would the minister be kind enough to provide for the committee those particular policies that are not outlined in Manual 500?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: You are asking for every policy for each department that they would have?

MR. MACKINNON: Yes. They would have to be, I would presume, if they're consistent with Human Resources, the Public Service . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That would be up to each individual department to provide to you.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, are they reviewed by the Human Resources division at all? How would you know if they're consistent? They would have to be, I would think, approved to be consistent with the Civil Service hiring practices unless there are two different hiring policies.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes. We do see to it that they are consistent in the approach taken by the Public Service Commission. The auditing practices in the field, one example of that is the merit audit. That will be done by the Public Service Commission this year to ensure that they are in compliance with . . .

MR. MACKINNON: Thank you. So, if you're reviewing them then you must have a copy of them on file - correct?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We would not have a copy of all these individual policies on file. The ones that we do, we would consult with the departments and get copies of them when we're doing these audits.

MR. MACKINNON: And provide them to members of the committee?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: At the stage when we're doing an audit on an individual policy?

MR. MACKINNON: No, no. Will you provide copies of those policies when you provide the . . .

[Page 517]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Each individual department would have to be responsible to do that for you.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes, okay.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Not me.

MR. MACKINNON: First of all, what percentage of management are women in the Public Service?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That's 44 per cent at the MCP level.

[4:45 p.m.]

MR. MACKINNON: Oh, sorry. I do apologize, my colleague asked that. Let's put it this way, if you could disseminate that information into layman's terms, what percentage of management of the Public Service are women?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: In senior management? That was the number that I said I would get your colleague out of the top 200 that she had asked me. She asked for that breakdown and that will be provided.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay, if you could, there are approximately 60 employees in your department, in Human Resources, where is that in the Supplement to the Public Accounts? Can anyone show me? I must be missing it here.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, it's there.

MR. MACKINNON: Can you tell me if any of your employees in this division received bonuses - performance based, of course? In the last year.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We don't have that information before us.

MR. MACKINNON: Will you provide it?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We can provide the number out of the 60, yes.

MR. MACKINNON: I'm just wondering, can you point out where in the Supplement the list of all these employees are?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Page 116.

[Page 518]

MR. MACKINNON: Would the minister, because the minister is responsible for the Status of Women, I would like to switch the focus just slightly if I could. If I could tag along on some of the questions my colleague raised, some of the key issues for the Board of the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, that reports to the department and the minister, two of the key issues are, one, violence against women and two, employment. Could the minister indicate what success her department has had in dealing with both of those issues in the last year?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We do not monitor that on an annual basis, but the statistics are available on-line and you're welcome to go on there and look and follow along to see how it is proceeding.

MR. MACKINNON: With all due respect, you're the minister responsible for this.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Fifty-seven per cent of the workforce are women, if that's the question that you're asking.

MR. MACKINNON: No. Well, let's just leave the employment side and the income level. Let's deal with the violence against women aspect. What success has the minister had in the last year in reducing violence against women based on the reports you've received from the Advisory Council?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, that information is not provided on an annual basis. There was a survey done in 1993 and another survey done in 2003 and it showed a decrease in the event of violence against women of approximately 20 per cent.

MR. MACKINNON: Really. Well, it seems to contradict the annual reports that are provided by the Advisory Council on the Status of Women. In the annual report extending from 1998 to 2000, the subject areas of concern, 13.7 per cent of all those questioned raised violence against women as a major concern and the latest annual report that was put out after that showed that it's nearly 18 per cent. So violence against women is increasing, it's not shrinking by your own department's reports. That contradicts what the minister is saying.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess what we need to be clear about is the information that you have there before you is the amount of calls that come into the Status of Women and the amount of calls that would have come in may have been up requesting information on violence against women, but not actual recorded cases. This is information on phone lines.

MR. MACKINNON: The information you're using is information you received from the Department of Justice?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The survey information that was provided to you.

MR. MACKINNON: Is from the Department of Justice?

[Page 519]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: By the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics.

MR. MACKINNON: Is that exclusive for Nova Scotia or is that a national statistic?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Both national and provincial.

MR. MACKINNON: Will you undertake to provide the breakdown? I mean, obviously, you must know the figure if you're able to say that it's decreasing. Do you have that at your fingertips?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We can send you the reports on that if you would like to see the reports from 1993 and 2003.

MR. MACKINNON: So you're just going by memory at this point, memory recall, you don't have anything documented?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I said approximately 20 per cent, is what I said.

MR. MACKINNON: So you're just going by memory recall?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MR. MACKINNON: The other area of concern by the Advisory Council on the Status of Women over the years has been the one of pay equity. What steps has your department taken to address that inequity?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Pay Equity Act, the mandate for that was completed and we continue to address the pay gap that is out there by encouraging women to enroll in professions other than traditional professions to women, be it in the legal profession, the technical end, so that they are eligible for more of the male dominated pay professions that have been out there.

MR. MACKINNON: What success have you had?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: At least half the enrolment now in law, medicine and biology are women.

MR. MACKINNON: Has the issue of pay equity been addressed in the Public Service - the disparity of women not being paid as much as men for a comparable job?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: From a government perspective in the Civil Service, pay equity was formally addressed in the 1990s and now classifications meet the pay equity requirements.

[Page 520]

MR. MACKINNON: So there's no inequity in pay scales between men and women of the same comparable job description in the Public Service in Nova Scotia today?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We are not aware of any identified inequities at this point in time.

MR. MACKINNON: What recommendations came out from the latest report of the Advisory Council on the Status of Women? What issues did they deal with and what recommendations were made?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Some of the areas where we've been working is looking at the representation of women in politics and that was addressed in the Votes for Women and from that we are proceeding to hold a campaign school for women in the near future. We're just putting the information together now for that and there was also input into the community development policy which is the Rural Communities Initiative that's underway.

MR. MACKINNON: Through you, Mr. Chairman, would you provide a little more detail on that particular initiative, I mean your development policy.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The community development policy was set up through the Office of Economic Development. It consults with communities across the province to see how they can sustain, what their sustainability and viability is in relationship to their individual areas.

MR. MACKINNON: I understand in that department there was a program to assist women who would like to start their own business and that program has been done away with. Is the minister aware of that and what are the implications of that?

[5:00 p.m.]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That was many years ago.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, it was under this particular administration, so it's not that many.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It was done before 1999.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, no, because I recall quite clearly that some of those women's initiatives were undertaken when we were in government. I remember it quite clearly.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There is now a Women in Business initiative through ACOA.

[Page 521]

MR. MACKINNON: Ah, so it's a federal responsibility now - the provincial government gave up that responsibility, is that what you're saying?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'm saying that the program that was provincially based ended long before 1999.

MR. MACKINNON: Well that's, as the Chair would say, a difference of opinion between two members. What I'm asking you now is can you confirm that that program, that initiative, is now funded by the federal government and not the provincial government?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I can tell you that, yes, there is an initiative funded through the federal government, through ACOA, for women in business.

MR. MACKINNON: But not the provincial government?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The provincial government ended its commitment prior to 1999.

MR. MACKINNON: What other initiatives or recommendations came forth from the Advisory Council on the Status of Women?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: What time period are you looking at?

MR. MACKINNON: Well, under the last year, we're dealing with the fiscal year just past aren't we? You can go back five or six years if you like.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There was a common law publication that was released back in the Fall - or Valentine's Day, sorry - there is also a statistical handbook that is being compiled now on paid and unpaid work and this will be released in June.

MR. MACKINNON: Was that prepared by the Advisory Council on the Status of Women?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, it was.

MR. MACKINNON: It was?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: And there was also an immigration brief on the needs of women to be considered in settlement programs.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay, well, let's go there. The government has the Nominee Program that was signed with the federal government in 2002, with a target of 200 immigrants per year. We're reaching the two-year period in the agreement and to date the

[Page 522]

province has only achieved 29 out of 400 in that program. What percentage of those were women or, you know, addressed the issue you just referred to?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That does not fall under this department at all. It's under, I believe, the Education Department, that program for immigration.

MR. MACKINNON: That is correct, well actually it's the Department of Economic Development - for the correction to the minister - but my question is, what efforts has your department done to address this issue on this program, what input have you had?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We have not worked on this subject.

MR. MACKINNON: Pardon?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We have not worked on this program at all.

MR. MACKINNON: After two years your department has not even considered it - no discussions with the minister responsible for the immigration program?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, they have been dealing with that program.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay, well, that's very disappointing. So it was a recommendation that was brought forward by the Advisory Council on the Status of Women and it was not acted on? Any other recommendations?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, I believe that that statement is inaccurate. For the Chair, that is not what was said here a moment ago at all.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, you didn't have to, I did, because you said you had nothing to do with it - it was the responsibility of another department and you didn't communicate any concern about it. So, I mean, I draw my own conclusion.

What other recommendations came from that Advisory Council?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We would be happy to give you the complete list of all the services that were provided and all the initiatives that the Advisory Council on the Status of Women worked on throughout the year.

MR. MACKINNON: Thank you. I will make sure I'm on the right page - Page 116, did you say, Public Service, Supplement to the Public Accounts.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the minister like a break to stretch?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, we will continue.

[Page 523]

MR. MACKINNON: Am I on the right page?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Page 116.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes. Okay, we have a number of expenditures here. There's one on Page 117 for Ledgehill - The Corporate Learning Centre. Now, I know where Ledgehill is and so on and so forth, in the Valley, but there's an expenditure or a line item here of $46,770.80. Could the minister please explain what that expenditure was for?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That was part of the leadership development courses to develop, to lead into the succession management. It was an executive development course and those fees would have paid for the facilitators and facilities and so on.

MR. MACKINNON: How many attended that particular session and how long was it for?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We don't have that statistical information before us.

MR. MACKINNON: Will you undertake to provide the details of that particular undertaking at Ledgehill, the full details?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, we can do that.

MR. MACKINNON: Who attended, and the breakdown, and the purpose of the session.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The purpose was for succession management, but we will provide that information to you.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes, we would like to find out if it was a success. We'll go back to the very first, Achieveglobal Canada Inc., $10,064.78 - what was that for?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, that was training material for the leadership development programs for government employees. It could have been workbooks, facilitators and so on.

MR. MACKINNON: Was that a tendered contract?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MR. MACKINNON: And was the successful bidder the lowest bidder?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

[Page 524]

MR. MACKINNON: Okay. AMS Mediation Assoc., $12,000?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, that is facilitation and training.

MR. MACKINNON: And who is AMS Mediation Assoc., where are they from?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Advanced Mediation Services and they're from Halifax.

MR. MACKINNON: Halifax. Was that tendered?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MR. MACKINNON: How many bid on that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We have over 100 on our standing . . .

MR. MACKINNON: So what you do, perhaps maybe do it by, like a call for proposals, call two or three, that sort of thing?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes. We call for whoever wants to bid on those training services that we're requiring at that time.

MR. MACKINNON: Sure, but you would call more than one?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Could you repeat that question?

MR. MACKINNON: Was there more than one company called for for this particular service - not necessarily tendered, I can appreciate the call for proposals because if you put out for tender, you would be forever on paperwork.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It was the best price on the standing offer.

MR. MACKINNON: So there was more than one offer, yes?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes, thank you. Business Improvements Architects, $12,481.56, what was that for?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, this was project management training for managers, executives.

MR. MACKINNON: Was that a call for proposal?

[Page 525]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: These are all called for proposal.

MR. MACKINNON: Every one of them?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The most part were calls for proposal.

MR. MACKINNON: Which ones were not?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We had an agreement with Dalhousie University for the Masters in Public Administration.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes, okay.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: And that one is outlined there.

MR. MACKINNON: Was that $196,389.51 the cost to the provincial government for the Master's Program, the total, because I believe you had - what did you say, 30 or 60, 75?

That was the cost for that particular . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That was the total for that calendar year.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay, that's great. The Council of Maritime Premiers "Trust Fund"?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I don't know where you are.

MR. MACKINNON: Just above Dalhousie University.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I will have to get back to you on that.

MR. MACKINNON: Eagle's Flight Creative Training Excellence Inc. - do we have members of the Public Service taking flying lessons? (Interruption) We do? We've reached new heights in this department.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It's a training session that we use for our leadership development.

MR. MACKINNON: But it's a flight school, is it?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, it is not a flight school.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, I don't know, it says flight creative training. So, I don't know, maybe you're teaching your employees to fly. I don't know, I'm just trying to ascertain the details. Nothing surprises me in government. Huestis Ritch, $20,466.76.

[Page 526]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It was for arbitration under the collective agreement.

MR. MACKINNON: Which particular agreement was that?

[5:15 p.m.]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Civil Service Master Agreement.

MR. MACKINNON: Master Agreement, okay. Now this name may be just a little bit misleading so you can put me right back on the centre line pretty quick if I'm off, Laserworks. Are you putting light shows on for your staff, or what's this $14,438.34?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It's printing services and supplies for the Public Service Commission.

MR. MACKINNON: What - sparklers?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Laserworks is the name of the company.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes, but what kind of goods and supplies?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Toner, cartridges.

MR. MACKINNON: What is it?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Toner and cartridges and so on, laser printers.

MR. MACKINNON: Okay, I just wanted to be sure. It can be very concerning. Well, there's just a few left. I notice that you spent a considerable amount of money on training and development, organization and so on - and that's good, I compliment the minister and her staff for that - does the minister feel at the end of the day we got value for dollar for all this money and work and so on and, you know, it's easy to say yes, but how do you measure whether you've really got value for dollar? I mean nothing is perfect and I understand that and I know there's an old saying . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: All courses are evaluated and, yes, we definitely believe that we got our value for our dollar. Every dollar spent on training and leadership programs is money well spent.

MR. MACKINNON: And these were all Nova Scotia firms - there are no non-Nova Scotian, no crystal from Switzerland or whatever?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They are not all from Nova Scotia, but the vast majority would be.

[Page 527]

MR. MACKINNON: Which ones are not?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Business Improvements Architects are out of Ontario.

MR. MACKINNON: Where are they?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Right up at the top of that . . .

MR. MACKINNON: On Page 117?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Business Improvements Architects, Page 116.

MR. MACKINNON: Where are they from?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Ontario.

MR. MACKINNON: Why do we have to go to Ontario to get them - what special talents did they have that Nova Scotia firms didn't have?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: He was the most qualified vendor and the lowest price in strategic projects management.

MR. MACKINNON: Pardon? I didn't hear with the echo in the room.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: He was the lowest bid on that and the most qualified for the strategic projects management course that was offered.

MR. MACKINNON: What type of strategic management course?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Leadership and project management.

MR. MACKINNON: What was the next lowest bid to that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That information would have to be provided.

MR. MACKINNON: And the minister will do that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MR. MACKINNON: And was that a Nova Scotia firm? You don't know?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, that information we can provide to you.

MR. MACKINNON: Any other non-Nova Scotia firms in this package?

[Page 528]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Performance Coaching Inc. on the next page, out of Toronto.

MR. MACKINNON: What do they coach?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Used for executive development, because of the expertise that they provided.

MR. MACKINNON: What special expertise did they have that Nova Scotia firms did not have?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Executive coaching.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, there are a lot of good executive coaching firms in Nova Scotia too. That is my knowledge.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Not as qualified as this individual firm.

MR. MACKINNON: Really? Wow. Okay, maybe the rest of my hour, I'll turn it over to my colleague, but I'll come back.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park.

MS. DIANA WHALEN: Thank you very much. I wanted to make sure I had a chance to have a few more questions because time is ticking by. What I wanted to ask about was a couple of questions that arose after I reviewed our other answers. In your opening remarks, again, you referred to a wellness initiative, $200,000 and it seems to be somehow jointly between the Office of Health Promotion and the Public Service Commission. Can you please just briefly give an outline on what that's doing and how you're doing it, who's the beneficiary?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The civil servants will be the beneficiaries to the project. It's a joint project; it's in co-operation with the Office of Health Promotion because they are the department most qualified to deliver this program.

MS. WHALEN: Would it be coming out of their budget?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, it is.

MS. WHALEN: I would sort of suggest that the money that's in the Office of Health Promotion should be for the general public for wellness initiatives across Nova Scotia rather than within our own Civil Service and that the Public Service Commission should have the budget for wellness initiatives internally. Could you just comment on that?

[Page 529]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The wellness initiative that we are working on in co-operation with the Office of Health Promotion is more or less a pilot project so that we can see where we go provincially with the others, but it's only part of a wellness initiative through the Public Service Commission.

MS. WHALEN: Does that mean that you had one already in place, there was a previous one in place and this is something new?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: This is something new that we're moving toward.

MS. WHALEN: Have you had anything in place previously for wellness, for fitness or weight loss, or . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Not corporate, no. This is a new initiative moving forward.

MS. WHALEN: I think you can appreciate what I'm saying, that just as corporate-wide training rests with the Public Service Commission, I think that the idea of wellness should rest there as well, just so that the budgets are very clear and announcements about the Office of Health Promotion have really been for initiatives for the whole province, for young people or old people having more access to fitness and advice on healthy lives, and I just kind of question the appropriateness of having those overlapping.

There's an issue - I'm moving into women's centres again, just so you'll know - there are a few questions that arise on that. I appreciated in the first hour that I asked questions that we had a better sense of what your role is as an advocate for women and for listening to women's issues and trying to promote them within your caucus and government and Cabinet. A couple of things that I'm looking at that really stand out as glaring, one of them is the change in Community Services which prevented women from staying or even entering into university programs, being limited to only a two-year upgrading program if they're on Community Services, and this was a change that was made.

Previously women could enter into a university program - and I believe there was a question even today in the House, it was recent anyway, we've talked about that and it goes to Community Services all the time, but knowing that poverty and the issues of education are so big for the improvement of the lives of women, I'm wondering if there's a role that you could play in those kind of debates, and know the education link to improving lives and not just their own life but the life of their entire family? If you could just comment and I'm not trying to - well I guess I just want to know what your powers are, that's what I want to know.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: What I can tell you is I have read the brief that did come out in relation to the education level and women with a university degree having higher paying jobs. I think it is very important that we encourage and do whatever possible to see

[Page 530]

to it that women are able to access this. Having said that, we still need to live within our fiscal restraints and whatever assistance that the Status of Women can be in that venture, we definitely would like to play a role.

MS. WHALEN: I do agree with you that annually we have to look at our fiscal constraints and that's really what I think is tying our hands right now, but I'm sure that the Status of Women would have statistics and information about the definite benefit. I know just for university students alone, each university student, the money that we subsidize universities we receive back many times over in their taxes when they graduate and earn higher incomes. If we can take women and give them a profession that gives them a decent standard of living and takes them off social assistance, the long-term impact is good fiscal management. I guess what we'd like to see might be figures that would show the direct correlation between education and getting off social assistance and improving your lives. I think that's how we need to look at these social policies, that in the long-run we save money, right? We create families who are much more sustainable; their children get better educated; their health levels improve; and there are a lot of other measures that go up as well.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There definitely are benefits to higher education, no question. It is a Department of Community Services initiative that would have to be going forward, but any input that I could have in that, I definitely would.

MS. WHALEN: That's something that I would like to ask you. If you could just give us an assurance that you will make those arguments, that those arguments are being made at the policy table, so that . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Those arguments are definitely being made at the policy table and again it comes down a lot to fiscal restraint and so on and only so many dollars to go so far, and where they need to be.

MS. WHALEN: That's right. Really you are the sole voice for some of these women's issues. You're the only voice that we can turn to that might be able to influence the outcome, ultimately. I don't want to put too much pressure on you, but . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Having said that, the whole caucus is very receptive to these issues that do come forward, whether they're male or female, they still do carry the weight of a lot of these issues and do respect the views that are put forward - and a lot of views come forward from the male members also.

MS. WHALEN: Yes. We had a brief discussion in the previous questions about what the recommendations were for the Status of Women from year to year, and I guess the most recent year, but I'd really like to know if you could name three initiatives that you would like to see that we introduce in Nova Scotia - let's put fiscal concerns a little bit to one side and ask what would three initiatives be that would make a real difference in the outcomes for women and their families in Nova Scotia. I think this is a good time to look at that.

[Page 531]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Well, better transition to employment for low-income women would definitely be one of those, and better access to maternity support - that was an article, I think that will be published tomorrow. The information that has come down through Employment Canada is that we definitely lack in that venture, that women are not able to access the EI or the unemployment system for maternity leave, and some 52 per cent, I believe it is, are unable to access the system. Those are startling numbers, and I know the revamping of that system over the last number of years has definitely put an adverse effect on this. They're definitely not catering to this segment of the population - and better measures to help women balance their paid work, and caregiving is also an issue that is a primary concern.

MS. WHALEN: Would that have to with just their balance in their life, or access to daycare?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Daycare and eldercare.

MS. WHALEN: And eldercare - so personal responsibilities.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Also adult children with disabilities would fall into that category.

MS. WHALEN: Yes, so caregiving responsibilities. I think those are all good programs.

I'd like to know a little bit more about the transition to employment because I know that's currently a program that's in place. So if that were to be a priority - I guess I'm surprised it's not a new program - what is it that we would do to strengthen or change it? Is it to make it more widely available or what?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There will be a paper that will be released in three weeks that will answer a lot of these questions that you have and, if after you receive that you have some individual questions, we'd be more than happy to sit down with you and go over the handout.

[5:30 p.m.]

MS. WHALEN: I appreciate that. Does transition to employment include literacy and educational training?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It can, yes.

MS. WHALEN: Have we identified literacy as a particular problem for women, or as a barrier to their entry to . . .

[Page 532]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It's part of a whole set of issues with education and so on, but it's definitely part of it.

MS. WHALEN: Going back to the women's centres, one of the things, as we said, is they're not here in metro. I believe there are 11 and they're in the rural areas of the province or Cape Breton - I don't like to call that rural, but outside of metro. It seems to me that a lot of their issues are related to basic skills that women are lacking or need assistance with. They have difficulty accessing housing and education and child care in order to get to those places. So the problems seem really enormous . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Transportation, you can add to that list.

MS. WHALEN: . . . in a rural area, exactly, just to reach the women's centres to find out something about help and what programs are available. When I look at some of the barriers and I see them with urban women who come to my office as well, it seems to me that - and I'm glad you've identified three things that we could do - I just feel like there are so many enormous problems that there must be some other programs that are working elsewhere that we should be looking at. I guess what I looked for there is some assurance that we're searching elsewhere for the best practice, for the best bang for our dollars - programs that sometimes don't cost a lot can have a huge impact on women.

Are there any of those out there, hidden gems that we would like to do if we didn't have fiscal barriers? We recognize Nova Scotia is often at the lowest end of the indicators because we don't have fiscal capacity. Are there any other really innovative, wonderful things that, for a small investment of money, would provide a big return on quality of life or prospects in the future?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess one of the key areas that we've been focusing on is enabling women to access higher-paying jobs, and whatever we can do in that venture to see them through to this is where we would like to go. I guess we've started at the high school level here, as one example where we're partnering with business, in Techsploration, to get female students familiar with programs that are non-traditional to women. Some of these are in the engineering field, it could be the oil rigs, it could be almost anything, but they have the opportunity to take part and to go out and work in these jobs to see if it is something that they would like to go on to, and this starts at the Grade 9 level and continues on through, so they get a good cross-section of what it would be like to work in that field before they have to make that decision. Those are really good initiatives that are going forward.

MS. WHALEN: And the Advisory Council is a partner in that, is that right, when you say, "we are"?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MS. WHALEN: That's good to see.

[Page 533]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: With business.

MS. WHALEN: Yes, and it's good to involve the private sector, too.

I would like to ask a few questions about immigration, if I could. I know that they touched on that. In the Clayton Park area there is a quite a large number of new Canadians and people who have just arrived here, and ESL is a big issue for those families. Very often the women are isolated because of the lack of ESL training. I'm not sure whether we would consider it a Department of Education initiative, but I'm wondering if the Advisory Council is aware of that immigrant community here in metro, and the need to try to provide more services that would support it?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: This has been an area where the Status of Women did some work and has identified the need to have more services available in this area.

MS. WHALEN: I think your model of partnering with other groups is really good, and I think there may be a role for the Advisory Council to play, along with some other agencies perhaps - maybe it's the YWCA, again, that has some newcomer programs. I would like to see the Advisory Council on the Status of Women be somewhat involved, and the reason is that women - again, as we said - provide the backbone or the foundation for the family, and their successful transition to a new home is very important for the children and for their integration into the community. So that's why I mention that, because it can be a source of frustration for newcomers.

Another thing is that immigration should be a priority for this province, with the declining population overall. The fact that we are losing population and our birth rate is low means we've really got to look at how to make this place much more accommodating and welcoming. I think you know there are some barriers - again, retention here in the province, and any initiatives you can think of, or partnering or whatever, I would like to see you pursue that. This is just my chance to have that dialogue with you, so I appreciate that.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We are at the table with multicultural strategies right now; those initiatives are happening.

MS. WHALEN: An initiative in particular, where women play a key role, is women are generally the member of the family who organizes health and health care and access to hospital or doctors, and I think there's a real need there to sort of cross cultural borders so that we can give people the skills they need to be able to look after their families better, and I think that's difficult for women here in metro, where a large number of the immigrants are, and I'm sure it's worse in other areas because there are so few.

I'm throwing these out more as challenges, and if you have some connection to it now, great; otherwise I'm just saying these are priorities for me.

[Page 534]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The time for the Liberal caucus has finished. The minister may respond.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We are part of the Saint Mary's University Gender and Immigration Program that they have.

MS. WHALEN: So you're sitting at the table there - that's good. Okay, my time is up unfortunately.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the government caucus have any questions?

The honourable member for Waverley-Fall River-Beaver Bank.

MR. GARY HINES: Madam Minister, I realize that in 1999 you were barely out of high school, however I would like to ask the question that was brought forward earlier regarding women in business or the Women in Business Program that had been abandoned in 1999.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It was definitely before that time.

MR. GARY HINES: So it was by the previous government. Okay, that's fine. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions by the Official Opposition?

The honourable member for Halifax Needham.

MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I'm pleased to have an opportunity to be here this afternoon to ask a few questions of the minister. I'm going to start with the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, but I will probably move into the public service before my time is up. As well, I will be sharing this time with other members of the caucus, if they have things they want to ask of you.

I want to come back to the question of the access that women have to university if they are in receipt of income assistance in Nova Scotia, and ask this question for a whole variety of reasons. I raised it with the Minister of Education, probably two days ago. I don't know if you were able to be there for that exchange, but this is an issue that has concerned me for some time, ever since your government introduced the changes that prohibit women who are on social assistance from going to university. I feel very strongly about this particular piece of public policy. I think that it is incumbent on us as legislators to look at ways to remove barriers to women seeking and achieving equality in our society as much as possible. In this case, without question, what the Hamm Government did was introduce a barrier to a certain group of women, from achieving their aspirations and for the potential to have a real

[Page 535]

change in equity and equality in our community. It's not only these women who bear the impact, it's also their kids.

I think Campaign 2000 has just released their latest report on child poverty across the country, and every year they've been doing this, their findings are pretty well consistent - and the minister will know this - child poverty isn't budging, child poverty is worse in a single female-headed household, child poverty is significantly worse for families where income assistance is the dominant source of income, although there are a lot of working poor families where there is an unacceptably high rate of child poverty.

The evidence is clear about what the implications are of being ghetto-ized in the income assistance area, and not being able to get out. The evidence is also really clear about women who are able to attain higher education, and what a difference that will make for their income and, therefore, their family income and what they can offer their children. The Advisory Council, in fact, in the last, I think, release of your publication on the economic and social indicators for women in the Province of Nova Scotia had information in that that demonstrated that women with a university education earned roughly equivalent to what men with a high school education earned, which suggests that if women are going to be able to advance in relation to men in our society, which is the whole purpose of having an Advisory Council on the Status of Women, to achieve equality, then we need to look at what the features are that create inequality and remove those barriers. Education is so clearly one of them.

So when the government introduced the Income Assistance Act and these new regulations that prohibit women on social assistance from going to university or taking education programs for more than two years in duration, it seemed to me a really regressive step. The questions have been put to the Minister of Community Services in the last day or two in the House, and, frankly, his response today, in my view, was disgraceful. His response today - and I'm not laying this at the minister's feet, I want to be really clear, this was his response not your response, but as a colleague at the table, I will tell him this myself but I'm hoping you will tell him as well, that he has never provided one iota of information to justify that change in policy. He has never presented a dollar figure that would demonstrate what the cost of the provision for allowing people on social assistance to attend university would be.

In fact, the numbers of people in this province who were on social assistance who attended a university program were quite small, very small. That's the reality. I taught in a university. I know how many people in university are there when they're on social assistance. It is a handful. It is minuscule. It's very small. So, the evidence for the cost factor has not been forthcoming, and I question what that evidence would be. I was here when those changes were made and, frankly, those changes weren't made for financial reasons, they were made for purely ideological and value reasons.

[Page 536]

What they suggest is that people on social assistance shouldn't have aspirations for a university education. That's a little too uppity, to look at that level. Those kinds of attitudes came out on the floor of the House when this was debated four years ago, or whatever. As the Minister responsible for the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, I would urge you - and I've said this to the Minister of Education, who I know values education because his entire professional career has been in this field - to really take this up rigorously at the Cabinet Table, look for the evidence, don't come to our committee here today and say it is a question of dollars, because that's what the Minister of Community Services is saying.

[5:45 p.m.]

You say to him, show me the proof, how many people were actually on social assistance, attending university and what did that cost? If he can justify that there is a prohibitive cost to doing it, then fine. Then everybody would be satisfied and say, okay, there is this big cost. But he has never done that. Nobody has ever done it. In fact, I'm very doubtful that that can be established in any way, shape or form.

The other thing I want to say is, in relation to the minister, what he said today in the House as he tried to justify this disgraceful barrier that's been erected to keep lower-income women from getting out of poverty, he talked about how much this government does to support these families already. He talked about the child care subsidies that people are getting, and he costed what he thought that, roughly, would be. He costed, roughly, what he thought the housing subsidy would be. He came up with a figure in the vicinity of $22,000 or so. Again, this is just total BS - I don't know if that's parliamentary or not.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, it's not really.

MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: So I take it back. It's a crock, really. There's no evidence to support - first of all, not every person who is on social assistance lives in subsidized housing. The minister saying, well, we provide subsidized housing to all of these people and that's equivalent to $8,000 or $12,000, so let's put that under the income-they're-getting line. That's baloney. All kinds of people on social assistance live in their own homes, they pay mortgages, they live in rental properties in the private sector, they're not in some subsidized world. I was waiting for him to say, well, they get public Medicare for their kids when they have an earache and that's worth this much, so let's add that onto their income.

There isn't anybody on Earth who says to an MLA, your income isn't really $50,000 a year, it's really $70,000 a year because, as an MLA, you get Medicare and that's worth this much money and we're going to add that onto your income. That's what the Minister of Community Services did today, with respect to low-income families. It's interesting, because what he did is what the Fraser Institute does when they write their baloney about poverty in this country, and the fact that poor people aren't really all that poor because they've got all of these subsidies, they've got public housing, they've got subsidized child care, they've got health care, they've got all of these things, and, therefore, they're not really living on $180

[Page 537]

a month as an adult for food, clothing and all their personal needs. They really have this huge amount of income at their disposal, because they have these other things. Well, it's just not so.

The minister needs to be challenged, he needs to be questioned, he needs that to happen, not only from members of the Opposition, because we will do that, believe me, but he needs that to happen from his own colleagues. I consider you in a unique position, as a full member of the Cabinet, as the only woman in the Cabinet, as a responsible and thoughtful person, to take this up with him and be a champion for those women who don't have a voice and who need somebody to say to the minister that it's not right when he perpetuates this perception that people on welfare are a drain on the taxpayer in the way he did today. Shame on him, that was poor-bashing in my view of the worst order and I can't wait to have a go at him over in the other room and I will be a lot harder on him there than I have been here.

Having said that, I want to move to another thing that's happening in Community Services and I want to know where the Advisory Council on the Status Women is with respect to the seeming shift in public policy in this province from fixed subsidized daycare spaces to portable daycare spaces. I perceive that there is a policy shift by stealth going on here where your government has made a decision to move into portable daycare spaces which, you know, first of all, I want to say that I have no difficulty with adding portable spaces into the daycare system, the child care system.

I think we need some portable child care spaces, but I don't think that you erode the existing system of good solid, fixed daycare. You need a combination. You need a mixed system. The only spaces that are being added are portable and the fixed spaces that are being lost are being converted into portable spaces and the result of that is going to be a deterioration in the quality of child care and it's going to tremendously destabilize the existing child care system.

So I want to know whether or not the Advisory Council on the Status of Women is looking at this and, if so, what advice do you have, what is your position on this and, if not, do you have the capacity to look at it and will you look at it?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Daycare is one of the priorities that we are putting forward this year and we are doing a study on this. We expect to have it back in the Fall. I can say that daycare, I know that when I campaigned, it was definitely an issue that I have brought back to the Status of Women and one that I will continue to work with because I realize what gaps are there and coming from a rural community, I know that it's a lot more obvious sometimes than it is in the big city environment, but it definitely is a stumbling block for women to enter the workplace and it comes back to a lot of the issues that were discussed around the table today. It's something that we definitely will be proceeding with and looking into to get that information back here.

[Page 538]

MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I want to thank you for that. I'm not surprised that it's an issue and it has a lot of different features in the rural communities, that's for sure, but it's an issue here as well. As a person who represents a community with a lot of inner-city population, it's a very big issue in my constituency in terms of having access to affordable child care that's of good quality and allows women to go to school and allows them to go to work.

It continues to be a concern and, you know, again, many of the child care centres, some of the older child care centres with fixed subsidy are in those areas and to lose child care spaces to portability out of those areas is going to disadvantage the very families that the Income Assistance Program was theoretically designed to support. It's inconceivable to me when I see this happen how the department doesn't seem to understand how they're undermining their own stated public policy in terms of helping people get back into the labour force. So sometimes I wonder how serious they are about that particular policy. I don't think I have a lot of time left before . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have until 6:16 p.m.

MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Well, I do have a lot of time left. So there are a number of other things I want to ask you about. I understand that the Advisory Council has a research program underway in partnership with some others in the health care area around caregiving. I'm wondering where that is, if you can provide us with a bit of an overview of at what point you are in the research, whether there have been any interim findings, where is that at at this stage?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The research program that you referred to is the Healthy Balance Research Program and that information will be available. There is some available now that we would be more than happy to send to you and, as it becomes available, we can forward that to you.

MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: As you know, as the Health Critic for the NDP caucus, this is an issue that I'm really quite interested in. There seems to be more and more pressure placed on caregivers and family caregivers than ever before. If I'm correct in my understanding, this does focus on informal caregiving rather than paid caregiving?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We're looking at it as unpaid caregiving.

MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Yes, there's a lot of that going around, isn't there? Well, this bring me then to a question about the Advisory Council's position on adequate funding for women's centres. The women's centres, as you will be aware, have some core funding, again through the provincial Department of Community Services, but these organizations tend to take a dollar from their core funding and are able to generate probably three times more by using their core staff to be constantly partnering with others and looking at both levels of government and other government departments for project funding, at both

[Page 539]

the federal level, perhaps a municipal level in some cases, and in the private sector, which is a very good thing, but it leaves them in precarious situations quite often.

Nobody has really, I think, done an independent assessment of the centres and their work, what they're actually doing, that would demonstrate their worth to government. So I'm wondering has the Advisory Council had contact with the women's centres? What is your feeling around the work that they do, their need for additional support and how would you see more advancing more stability in those organizations around the province?

[6:00 p.m.]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The funding that is provided to the women's resource centres is approximately $100,000 a year. It is always a challenge to come up with additional funding and so on. Although it is stable funding, it has been stable funding at $100,000 they still continue to operate. I guess it hasn't been a stress that some of the transition houses appear to be in different times. They are able to manage the funds to do and the Department of Community Services do work with negotiating these amounts of money with them and I feel that yes, there could be more services provided with more money, but I think that is likewise in any program that would be out there.

MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Can you tell me, you made reference to the transition house funding and that's an area that you think is - the way you characterized that just now makes me think that the Advisory Council thinks that transition house funding is under some stress and may require some additional resources. What is the advice of the Advisory Council with respect to the funding of transition houses in the province these days?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: In relation to that comment, some transition houses across the province regularly request additional funding, and they do negotiate with the Department of Community Services for this. There are several transition houses across the province, but again each one is individual in nature, some are able to operate on - but it would depend on the demand and the area and a lot of other things that would come into play.

MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Thank you for that. Can you be more specific with respect to - when you say several, what do you mean by several? Do you mean, Bridgewater, Yarmouth, Cape Breton? Who do you mean?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There are nine transition houses across the province, and it appears that the urban transition houses are more utilized than the rural ones.

MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I think that that's true, I once chaired the board of Bryony House here in metro for a while. Bryony House opened its doors in 1978 I think and it opened its doors in 1978 as a 24-bed shelter, and here we are in the year 2004, and we still have a 24-bed shelter, period. The occupancy rate at Bryony house is frequently more than 100 per cent. They keep waiting lists, and there have been times when women are sent

[Page 540]

to Adsum House if they have beds, have been put up in lodges around town and what have you.

It's always been a mystery to me why the - and this information goes to government. The occupancy rate at the shelter goes to government on a quarterly basis. And it has always been a mystery to me why the funding formula for the shelters around the province treats all of the houses the same. This has put, for example Bryony House, at a distinct disadvantage in that the capacity of that house, the demand for services in that house is much greater. On a regular basis we would get into a situation where we would actually be running a deficit. We would be trying to meet payroll out of our line of credit, those kinds of things. Not a very good situation to be in.

We had a big volunteer board doing lots of fundraising, typical scenario for a lot of women's organizations. I know that after the budget two years ago when the current government was looking at removing close to $900,000 from the transition house line there was a lot of protest and the government backed off. The transition houses under the auspices of THANS, the Transition House Association, have been meeting and they have put together their report, which they have submitted. I don't believe that they have received much by way of a response to that report, and my understanding is that they are looking at a greater commitment to the core services that they provide, and a recognition of services that they provide that haven't always been recognized in the funding formula. I'm wondering what the position of the Advisory Council is with respect to this, what are you advising government with respect to the THANS report?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Those are very good points that you raise. The discussion continues, across with individuals, it's going to be done I believe on an individual transition house to come up with some type of redesign structure, this is not something that will happen in the immediate future, but it's ongoing, like I said, the discussions will continue, but there's a lot of very good statistical information that you have put forward here and I will take all of that under advisement.

MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I'll send you my thesis which I did on transition houses as a mater of fact. I did a study on women in work, I spent time at all of the shelters, and I did a survey, and I did a lot of interviewing. I worked for a month for one of the shelters in the Valley, and I worked at Bryony House on the backshift which I had never done, which was a real eye-opener, I have to tell you. Working the night shift in a shelter, when you have one person on. You run a crisis line, you have women and children in the house, and you potentially have people coming to the door, like the police.

I remember very clearly one night that I worked in the shelter. The woman who was the crisis worker on the night shift was on the phone with a woman who had been in the house, who was suicidal. She called the crisis line at the shelter. Jennifer was on the phone with this woman who she knew, and she knew that when she said she was suicidal she was. The house was full, so all 24 beds were occupied with women and children. There was a

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woman in the house who was psychotic and the staff had spent all day trying to get her admitted to the Nova Scotia Hospital, without success. The other women in the house were terrified of her and it was sort of my job to occupy this woman as much as possible - at 3:00 a.m., on the 16^th cup of coffee. Then the police arrived at the door with a woman and two children who they had taken out of a very bad situation in the city and it was madness - with one worker, one crisis worker, that's what that shelter had funding for in terms of staffing complement for the night shift.

This isn't what happens every night, clearly, but this is what can frequently happen. I remember at 8:00 a.m. when the shift changed, as we were leaving, Jennifer saying, I really don't know what I would have done if you hadn't been in the house. The reality of doing that kind of work is so hard for people to understand, I think. We have a superficial sense of what that is like, but for me to actually have been there. When I did this work, I had actually sat on boards of transition houses and been involved in women's organizations and I am a trained social worker so I had been doing this for years, but never in a shelter. I had never worked in a shelter and I had never worked the backshift in a shelter. The only times I had ever spent in the shelters would have been during the daytime.

To be there on a night shift was an amazing, educational experience. An amazing eye-opener. I have so much respect for the women who do this work and what it is that they're up against, it's incredible. I think that it probably would be good if we could get more people, especially in this place, to understand what really goes on in those places and what the work is actually like. I think that the ongoing discussions around how we're going to deal with the funding in each house might not be so ongoing, i.e., years of ongoing discussions. We might find the resources that are needed if people truly understood what goes on in those places.

The Advisory Council has had a project on women in politics. I know that there were discussion groups around the province. I know that the Province of Nova Scotia has, I believe, the distinction of having the worst record of women being elected at the provincial level of any province in the country. I sometimes say to people that as far as I know in the entire history of this place, there have only been 22 women elected. In the entire history of the Nova Scotia Legislature - 22 women. So I want to say that the women in politics project is something that I think is a great initiative for the Advisory Council to have done. I'd like to ask you where that project is now? I know there were focus groups, I know there was a day and I heard the minister as part of the panel that day, which was really good for me to get some sense of your background, what brought you into politics. So where is that project going?

[6:15 p.m.]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: As you're well aware, we did meet throughout the province and had different workshops from Yarmouth to the other end of the province. We definitely are proceeding from that. There was a lot of feedback that we acquired. I was privileged to be able to attend a women's campaign school in Vancouver in February and

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from that I did acquire some very good information. At this point in time, we're looking at putting together a women's campaign school. It will be a non-partisan campaign school that will be comprised of a variety of different events from mock campaigns to media scrums to get females who are interested in entering the political forum so they can understand what is in store and what they should expect. This is from the ABCs - the municipal, provincial and federal levels, from all levels to get women involved in politics.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The four hours of debate have been reached today, we'll reconvene tomorrow. The NDP has 22 minutes left, if they care to use it at that time. We stand adjourned.

[6:16 p.m. The subcommittee rose.]