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HALIFAX, FRIDAY, APRIL 25, 2003

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY

9:10 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Mark Parent

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. We are resuming debate on the estimates for the Departments of Tourism and Culture, and Health Promotion. For the minister's opening remarks, you have up to eight minutes.

The honourable Minister of Tourism and Culture.

HON. RODNEY MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, at the table I have here with me today my deputy minister, Michele McKenzie, who I introduced yesterday, as well as Kevin Elliott, Financial Services. As well, a whole crowd is behind me, sitting in the chairs, who I introduced yesterday, for the most part, and given that I'm at the end of my opening remarks, I won't go into that once again. I probably won't use the whole eight minutes, so it will leave a few extra minutes for my colleagues to ask questions.

Mr. Chairman, I was at a point in my opening comments yesterday talking about our tobacco strategy, as well as our physical activity strategies, as well as the programs and initiatives of stakeholders such as the Canadian Cancer Society, who I mentioned that I had met with, the Heart and Stroke Foundation, the Canadian Diabetes Association and the Medical Society of Nova Scotia. I wanted to make a comment yesterday that I felt that the Medical Society of Nova Scotia was really being proactive in its approach to wellness. I think that was reflective in such initiatives as the Sport Futures programs.

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Mr. Chairman, that means coordinating existing programs, addressing gaps, looking for new opportunities and partnerships, and building on what's already being done. The chronic disease prevention strategy will be a cornerstone of our action plan for the Office of Health Promotion, as I mentioned yesterday. By the year 2020, we believe that more Nova Scotians will enjoy mental, physical, social and attitudinal fitness based on sound, healthy lifestyle choices. And as I mentioned, we have to look at this as a long-term approach not a short-term approach, and that is what the chronic disease prevention strategy will do. Instead of leading the nation in chronic disease, we will lead the nation in innovative ways to support wellness. We all have a role to play in achieving that vision.

Mr. Chairman, I am also a firm believer, as someone who was involved as a physical educator and as a coach in a variety of ways in my community, that it's not just about money. It's also about, as mentioned in my comments, lifestyle choices. I think everybody can agree with that, it's simply not about throwing money at a problem and feeling that that's going to fix the problem. Government has a role, from public education to support for sport, recreation activity in our communities to prevention and treatment of addictions.

We also know that being healthy is about more than just lifestyle choices. Our health is affected by a wide variety of factors: income, social status, healthy child development, employment and working conditions, education and more. That's why virtually every decision that we, the government, make must be made with the help of Nova Scotians in mind. With that, I wrap up my comments. I look forward to the questions by my colleagues from the Legislature.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The NDP caucus will start. (Interruptions) No further questions. Are there any questions by the members of the Liberal caucus?

DR. JAMES SMITH: Not at this time, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions then by members of the PC caucus?

The honourable member for Kings West.

MR. JON CAREY: Mr. Chairman, through you, the VICs throughout the province, they get a rating. I know in my area, Kingston, for example, gets a high rating, usually. I am just wondering, the different sizes and what are the variables and how does this work? Could you explain that to me?

[9:15 a.m.]

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: On the visitor information centre services, actually it's a good question. The question on visitor information centres is one which looks at two different systems. One of the systems we have for visitor information centres is that of the

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provincial visitor information system. The other one has to do with our community visitor information centres. Yesterday I had the opportunity of going over to Dartmouth in the morning to speak to those counsellors who will be working in our provincial visitor information centres. I believe there were 120, offhand, counsellors who will be working in a variety of capacities throughout the provincial system. Those counsellors will be at various provincial visitor information centres. I am going to talk a bit about the provincial ones first.

One such example would be at the entry point, coming into Nova Scotia, by land in Amherst. In Amherst, the new visitor information centre was built. Actually it was announced by the previous government, and built - I'm not sure if it was under the minister of the day, either the member for Cape Breton South or a previous minister. It's a beautiful visitor information centre. It's certainly one that we are proud of, although when it was built it was built in a location which actually decreased slightly the number of visitors being able to be counselled. This has presented a challenge to us. We have moved forward on initiatives with the local area, as well as within our department and with Transportation to look at ways we can upgrade, whether it's signage, whether it's landscape, whatever the case might be, to encourage more people to stop. That has been successful to a point, with that being the second-most-visited visitor information centre in the province.

Another such example of a visitor information centre in Nova Scotia, which is the busiest in the province - I believe it was 220,000 visitors - is that of Port Hastings, the entry point for the Island of Cape Breton. This, again, is through our provincial VIC program. That particular VIC is one that again is the busiest. It may not be up to the standards, as far as expected if you took at look at Amherst or Pictou, which have seen upgrades. There have been some upgrades at Port Hastings, but there is the potential to partner through the Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation as well as the Growth Fund, to see a new visitor information centre, to see a new gateway for the island, which would be a tremendous asset. There are concerns that I have as a minister. I do not want to see the number of visitors being counselled to drop from 220,000 to 150,000 to have a new centre. That will not do anyone any good.

Another such example of a provincial VIC is that of the Halifax Visitor Information Centre. The Halifax Visitor Information Centre at the airport is one that we're very proud of. In fact, I was speaking to a staff person there yesterday. She felt very positive about the new visitor information centre at the airport. To no one's surprise there has been a tremendous amount of work being done at the airport, and certainly I congratulate the airport group involved in doing that. That visitor information centre, I believe, will provide a greater opportunity to counsel our visitors.

We know from our research that visitors stay longer, they spend more money, and that's what we want to encourage. You don't see significant increases or significant decreases in your number of visitors generally, it's usually within a few percentage points. So what's more important and what we've tried to focus on is keeping people longer and

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keeping them spending more money and to educate them. Getting back to where we were yesterday at the Holiday Inn, that's what we're trying to do, counsel our own counsellors on what Nova Scotia has to offer around the province.

Quite frankly, I ran into someone just two days ago in Halifax and we were talking about the Cabot Trail. That person had never been to North Cheticamp, hadn't been around the Cabot Trail. In the same breath, I can run into someone in Mira who had never been along the Bay of Fundy. So we have to educate Nova Scotians, I believe, to a greater degree, and that includes places such as visitor information centres but also in schools, along with many other areas.

Other entry points we focus on that would affect your particular area, also here on the Halifax waterfront, but also in Digby, an entry point coming from New Brunswick. The Yarmouth Visitor Information Centre has also seen upgrades in the last number of years. I can tell you that certainly that visitor information centre has done an excellent job in working with various organizations, such as the Scotia Prince, such as The CAT, going to both Bar Harbor and Portland, Maine. Those are important, and they're important because we do a lot of day packages, overnight packages with both the Scotia Prince and the Bay Ferries. Those packages, we've seen the economic benefit of those packages. Our visitor information centres play a key role.

Also, one I missed, Mr. Chairman, is that of Pictou, although there are some challenges there with the rotary. There is a rotary in Pictou, I don't know if the member is familiar with that one. The visitor information centre in Pictou does have challenges, although it is a beautiful visitor information centre. We have done more and more to try to enhance the opportunity for people, when they're coming off P.E.I., to stop there, or before leaving Nova Scotia, to try to get them to stop as well. What I have seen in that is that we've seen significant increases, and perhaps while I am going through, talking about the visitor information centre, I can get staff to get me the actual numbers on the Pictou one, as well as the others, so I can provide them to you. If I don't have it this morning, I will get it for you at a later date.

With respect to that one, one of the things I noticed, certainly . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Could I interrupt the minister for a second to remind you that all information that you intend, should be made available for the whole committee.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Certainly. I will make sure that we show the differences in the numbers at each provincial VIC for each caucus. If I can have that before the committee rises this morning, I will certainly do that.

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One of the things that we have seen, and as an example I will use Pictou because I know there was a significant increase there, I don't always like to use percentages because if you have 1,000 people being counselled and the next year you have 2,000 people, well, percentage-wise it looks like a huge percentage increase, but in reality it's 1,000 more people. Whereas you may have another visitor information centre here in Halifax which sees significantly more numbers, the percentage may look less or basically the same but counsels significantly more. We have to put that into context.

One of the things I did notice, to enhance our opportunities as a province through our visitor information services, coming off P.E.I. last summer, as a matter of fact - Mr. Chairman, I must admit I went over to P.E.I. for an evening last summer, although I spent my vacation much around the province, I did go over to spend an evening in P.E.I., which has been a tradition in my family for a number of years. Being that I can see the island from my own riding, I'm probably closer to P.E.I. than in fact I am to Halifax. So there is some irony in that.

On the way back, something that really struck me when I was going across was a beautiful sign welcoming people to Prince Edward Island, and when I came back I realized, my God, we don't have the same sort of sign. We do have it in Amherst and in a number of the other entry points, but we didn't have one for those coming from P.E.I. It's something that we're certainly going to be moving forward on, as a department. We don't necessarily just move on that without speaking to the regional tourism association, along with many others.

The member referred in his question to - which particular visitor information centre, again?

MR. CAREY: Kingston, in the Valley.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Offhand there is the community visitor information centre program. When the rating is done, it's done through the regional tourism association. The regional tourism association looks after what visitor information centres get the funding in that particular region. I think it's 68 community VICs that we have. So our funding support goes from our department. It used to come through the PEP program, through Economic Development directly. It comes through our department now, it goes right into our department's baseline budget. It's furthered into the regional tourism associations.

That's based on a formula. It's an agreed-upon formula, a formula that I can tell you we have always had a great deal of discussion on with the RDAs, the regional tourism associations, a formula that we consistently review. There are a number of aspects for the rating that we use. It's based on quality that the regional tourism associations look at, it's based on visitor counselling, everything from their washroom facilities to their visitor feedback. I think it's important that we do put the community VICs through a process,

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because at the end of the day if we're going to be putting money into something, we need to get the biggest bang for our dollar.

This has been reiterated by the partnership council, by TIANS, in that as part of our vision for tourism, as part of our ongoing plan, visitor information counselling is vital in keeping our visitors here. In that formula, the regional tourism association, if they have 10 VICs, they make a decision as a regional association if they should focus on five museums or if they want to spread their resources and focus on 10. I know that many MLAs have had questions regarding why a certain visitor information centre gets this type of investment and another gets another.

It's a challenge. It's a challenge for me as minister, and for our department, because it's one of those issues where either we as a department and we as a government . . .

DR. JAMES SMITH: Could I call for a quorum count, please.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Quorum is established. We can continue.

DR. SMITH: I'm not staying to hear a minister filibuster his own estimates. That's what he's been doing.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Continue with your answer, please.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, on the visitor information centre - I lost track of where I was there - on the formula with respect to where the dollars go, again, we have had a great deal of discussion about this issue. We certainly feel that the formula that we have been using is one in which we have tried to be as fair as possible. I do not want to see the Government of Nova Scotia running community visitor information centres. At the same time, I know that it is the taxpayers' dollars being invested. I think it's important that we give the opportunity for regional tourism associations to make decisions at the local level. That's certainly the direction that I continue to go in.

MR. CAREY: Now I know local regions like my own are always interested in getting their share and that type of thing. The Evangeline Trail, I have had some comments, and they have requested me to try to find out how they can maybe get more input, if that's what's required or whatever. As you enter the province at Amherst and when you get down to Halifax, there is a signage - I guess this is probably just from our point of view, but we're looking to see what we can do to make sure that people, when they go to the Sunrise Trail or the Cabot Trail or whatever, also make a jaunt through the Valley, so that we can keep the tourism dollars in the Valley. I'm just wondering what process and what plan is in place so that this might happen? Tourism is certainly becoming more significant all the time in the Valley area.

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MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I appreciate the member's question. What we have in place, as I mentioned, is we have an arrangement with our regional tourism associations. The regional tourism associations get their funding, not only for visitor information centre services but they also have a fee-for-service arrangement with the department. I can give you an example, if ETTA receives $22,000 in operating support, plus as I mentioned the PEP funding for VICs which is $40,000, plus a destination marketing budget of $30,000, it is based on a formula that each regional tourism association has to sign off on. If they had a disagreement with the formula - we do a lot of consultation.

[9:30 a.m.]

On the other side of it, the destination marketing provides opportunity at the local level. Then you could look at, as an example, the Doers and Dreamers Guide, the travel guide. Each section is broken up into different regions of the province. Your particular section is given - we try to be as fair as possible. I have met with ETTA on a number of occasions, and I've tried to drop in on my travels, if I happen to be going by, just to drop into a regional tourism association and say hello and get some feedback on what's been happening. Add to that the fact that we have many marketing partnership opportunities provincially in a variety of capacities, in a variety of brochures and such that they can take advantage of.

To give you an example, the Doers and Dreamers Guide, there are 750,000 copies which go worldwide. That is a significant opportunity for every area of our province. It's another 75,000 French Doers and Dreamers Guides - well, they're not Doers and Dreamers, I guess they're called Du reve a l'aventure, pardon my French. So there is great opportunity. That's the whole Atlantic Canada showpiece, the new commercials you're seeing. We're doubling the amount of commercials, some of which might show a picture of a region. We would like to get every picture we want on a commercial, 30 seconds or a minute, but it's just not possible.

Included in that, I mentioned in my opening comments yesterday about the Bay of Fundy, which I am sure will be of interest to you. This year we are moving forward and working with the regional tourism association, working through our department, in working through the local communities on opportunities for the Bay of Fundy. We have marketing activities targeted for the northeastern United States on that particular issue. We're also going to partner with New Brunswick, which I think is important, as sharing the Bay of Fundy, Tourism Atlantic, and as I mentioned, the industry around it.

Overall we're going to be taking a look at trying to increase the standards of excellence and commitment to quality in all areas around your particular area. I want to also mention that there are a number of opportunities in various programs, in Heritage, in Culture, that your area does take advantage of and can take advantage of which can help promote things. Festivals - off-hand, I don't know if you have a festival in Kingston . . .

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MR. CAREY: Yes.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Under the Cultural Activities Program, your festival could apply through the Cultural Activities Program, which can be used to help, whether it's putting on workshops or for the cultural activity itself, which then, I believe, can be enhanced through tourism destination programs. There are opportunities, and we always look for partnerships.

MR. CAREY: I know that I've discussed with you in the past the Military Aviation Museum in Greenwood, which I realize is federal, somewhat. Does the province have any connection with it in any way, as far as financial or in other supportive roles, to that type of museum? If it doesn't, is there something we could do to try to promote that?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: That's actually a very good point. It is one that we've struggled with as far as the Community Museum Assistance Program goes. That particular program does not fall within the purview of the Military Aviation Museum, for applying, although what we have done is, we as a government made a conscious decision about two and a half years ago to put forward the Strategic Development Initiative. That's geared not only towards community museums, at first it was just geared towards those in the Community Museum Assistance Program, but in that particular program we've broadened the opportunities for that plus for community museums, and heritage organizations as well, to build on the community's assets and strengths, encouraging partnerships, that's partnerships with municipal-level RDAs and other bodies.

If they want to do something to increase their self-sufficiency as a museum, I would say there's a very good chance that they would be eligible under that particular program, but I certainly stand to be corrected by my staff. I think, especially if they were partnering, perhaps, with another organization within your community, that would actually be a very good opportunity for them to capitalize on. As far as the operational funding there, they don't fall within the program.

MR. CAREY: They do very well. They have a tremendous volunteer organization, particularly of the ex-military people who have retired in the area. It's a tremendous facility. I'm always interested in knowing, we're very proud of our zoo in Aylesford, I believe it's the largest one in Eastern Canada. (Interruptions) Oaklawn Farm Zoo. The Rogersons have done a tremendous job there and are known around the world actually. They send animals there to have breeding projects and health issues with animals. That family has done a tremendous job there. I'm just wondering - I know last year they had in excess of 100,000 tourists - has the Tourism Department had much input or much interaction with the Rogersons at Oaklawn?

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MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: With respect to the zoo, there are two particular initiatives that I can point to, one being the blue signage program, which we are involved with them on, as well as the destination marketing program through the RTA, the Evangeline Trail Tourism Association. Certainly there have been a couple of opportunities where we've been able to partner. As far as operational funding, there's nothing for zoos or anything like that. We focus on museums. With 100,000 visitors, they're obviously very important to your local area and really provincially. There aren't many organizations in the province that would see 100,000 visitors. I can perhaps think of a couple offhand, but that's really quite significant. I didn't realize it was that high.

MR. CAREY: There's an educational benefit too, a tremendous number of schools send busloads of children there, starting in April and it goes right through the summer.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I guess what I can tell the honourable member is that we certainly will take a look, perhaps to see what other things we can do to help promote or at least to make sure that those involved know what is available, as far as partnering with ourselves or the local RTA or whoever it might be. Certainly, given that there's that much of an impact, I'm sure they're in the Doers and Dreamers Guide as well. Offhand, I can't point to it, but certainly we will do whatever we can.

MR. CAREY: The Upper Clements Family Theme Park has, for years, been a point of discussion. What is happening? Has the privatization that was being worked on, is that working out?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: There was a deal signed under the previous administration. I believe it's a 10-year deal, which we are still involved in. I think there are a couple of years left in that commitment. We are honouring that commitment. At the end of the deal which was signed under the previous minister, under the previous government, there is the option for the committee, which is in place, to take over the facility for $1. We are honouring that commitment, we have since we started. I think it's important that we do honour such commitments.

I have had a great deal of discussion with those involved, and they have had their challenges and they have had their successes. Certainly there is a vast history about that particular park, as we all know. There's probably not enough time today to go into that history. They also play an important role. I believe it was 100,000 visitors, 110,000 last year, so very significant numbers.

MR. CAREY: Last year we had the railroad turned over from Trans Canada Trails to the province and so on. What part did Tourism have to play, and what part are they playing in the work that's being done to see what citizens and various groups are working out a plan so that more people can use it, going through all the factors, the difficulties that are involved

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in getting all the groups together to come up with a plan that's satisfactory to the majority of the people?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The trails reflect in both my portfolios. Tourism, the Office of Health Promotion, and Sport and Recreation have taken a real leadership role over the years and continue to on that particular issue. DNR is involved. As a government, it's really a corporate issue, more so than even just a Tourism issue. We do have opportunities through our Tourism development program for trails. We also have the opportunity through Sport and Recreation. If memory serves me correctly, there may be over 200 - I will have to ask a staff person - groups that we work with regarding trails in the province.

It's not something that the government itself is simply running all the trails. If you look at a trail, such as the Ceilidh Trail Association, they would have a management agreement with ourselves on managing a certain section of the trail. We provide funding through such possibilities as the recreation facilities program, that they can apply for and receive funding to enhance the trails. We have a trail coordinator position within our department as well.

If I was looking at some of the trail groups in your particular region, the Valley region, I can give you some examples, the Annapolis Valley Lake & Ridge Runners Club, the Black Rock Community Association, the Digby Trails Association, Friends of the Cornwallis River Society, the Hants County Trails Association, the Kings County Trails Society, the Mid-Valley ATV Club. I know that, if I recall, I'm not sure if it was in the member's riding or maybe it was the member representing Kentville, I'm trying to recall, it was perhaps yours, I saw the Minister of Natural Resources had the opportunity to be in last year, having an announcement about it, a section of the trail. (Interruptions) Yes, in Kingston.

I know there are issues. You're trying to encourage multi-use, at the same time you're trying to encourage the local community to have the input on what it should be used for. You're trying to make sure that local landowners' land is protected. It is a challenge. We work together on it, it's really a corporate issue, as I mentioned. From a tourism point of view, certainly, if you take a look at our planning for tourism, our product that we promote provincially, trails play a vital role in that. We want to see them play an even greater role, because we're constantly promoting a seacoast destination.

Many visitors are now looking for that opportunity, whether it's in Yarmouth or whether it's in your area or whether it's in HRM or whether it's in Cape Breton Island or northern Nova Scotia, to take advantage, when they do come - they want something to do with their family or perhaps as an individual, something which perhaps doesn't cost a lot of money or no money at all. The trails have provided that opportunity. As well, our snowmobile associations have also taken advantage. I can tell you that I have met on many occasions with SANS, the Snowmobilers Association of Nova Scotia. Certainly, the

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groomers have done an excellent job in much of the work they've done. We have had greater partnerships in putting forward a mapping system.

That's one of the challenges we do have, whether it's with any trails. You want to make sure that when you're marketing to a tourist that you have the product to market. We put in for it a mapping system with SANS, using GPS, the Global Positioning System, to do the mapping, and we need that. A snowmobiler needs to know what opportunities there might be to stop, to go to a restaurant, to eat, to stop at an inn on the way, perhaps there's a local organization. We consistently work on those opportunities for not only tourists but local people as well, because many users, as they're multi-faceted, want to know. If they're from Amherst, they want to know what is available in the Valley and what is available in places like Yarmouth.

[9:45 a.m.]

I think there is an opportunity. Although we still have a lot of work to do, there's an opportunity to really see the Snowmobilers Association continue to grow. They've had a tremendous amount of success, even in their permitting system. They have a voluntary permit system, which they have a high percentage of people being involved. People like Laurie Cranton, the president, have done a tremendous job in encouraging that. I think we can see greater success. We have some challenges with our weather that maybe northern New Brunswick doesn't have, but at some point it can be an excellent opportunity for people coming in.

To promote our winter tourism product - perhaps I will touch on that. The winter tourism product is always a challenge in Nova Scotia. Our commitment as a government and our commitment as a department is to build our tourism opportunities as a four-season, world-class destination. We have been very successful in the Spring season, the summer and the Fall, although we would like to continue broadening in those shoulder seasons. We have had success. I can point to examples, the Celtic Colours is an example in the Fall and other opportunities, whether it's in March break, opportunities at various Nova Scotia museums through the Museum of Natural History. In fact I recall talking to the Premier a couple of weeks ago, and he was commenting on how he had taken his grandson to the Museum of Industry, and how there were hundreds of kids there on March break.

Those are the types of things we need to do all across the province to build on the shoulder seasons. The winter season, as I mentioned, there are opportunities. We have been very successful this winter. We were very fortunate. I mentioned Celtic Colours. At Christmastime we had the World Junior Hockey Championships here in Halifax, which was a very important bump up for us. We had the Brier, which also provided a very important opportunity for ourselves. And we had the Season of Champions, through curling, on which we did promotion, which gave us an opportunity. You have to be very strategic in how you do your marketing, provincially. The Brier is one of those examples where we did.

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We went from there, and we had the East Coast Music Awards, where we got to showcase musicians from one end of this province to the other. Yesterday I talked, in my opening comments, about the partnerships that not only came forward outside of our department, but really how the deputy and the staff have worked extremely hard over the last couple of years to get the department working better together. From day one that was a challenge. We quickly saw that Heritage and Culture and Tourism, our staff started realizing that we have so much in common and we can work together. By working together on projects such as the East Coast Music Awards, we were far better off. They did a tremendous job.

The ECMAs had more outside industry people coming in this year than in the history of the ECMAs. So that provided an opportunity for musicians to grow their markets and their export, because we all know that whatever form of the arts you're involved in, music as one example, that it's not easy to make a living at it. Most people end up having two jobs, one being a musician and one being something else. For example, for me music is my main job and politics is my sideline.

The opportunities, I think, opened the doors, and I would like to see more. I really believe that. I would like to see the Junos here in Nova Scotia. We will be announcing some further music initiatives in the next number of weeks, which will benefit every area of this province, including the member's area.

MR. CAREY: I don't think anyone could dispute Nova Scotia's prominence in tourism and in your department, since you have been minister, there have been a lot of good things happening. Certainly we feel good about that. The trail, again, from the old railroad, I have citizens who will contact me. We have people who walk and we have people who want to ride horses and we have people who want to have snowmobiles and others who want to use the four-wheelers, there seems to be quite a variety of people interested. I know that your department and Natural Resources have had some meetings throughout Nova Scotia to meet with interested parties and so on. What is the best process for individuals or groups that want to have input and to make sure that something works out that is fair to everyone and that the government can support?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Again, as I mentioned, it's really a corporate issue, as you mentioned. We have a committee put in place within government, not only with staff but also with ministers. Actually on the committee we had Sport and Rec, Tourism, Natural Resources, Transportation and Public Works was also involved, and perhaps Environment was also involved - Minister Russell was also involved - in that committee, taking a look at those very issues you're talking about, trying to find that balanced approach. What might be seen as working in Sport and Recreation may not be seen as working in a particular trail, especially if it's not on the Trans Canada Trail, by Environment.

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It's to find that balanced approach, so we are meeting as ministers, we are coming up with a common approach to go further on some of the issues that you're referring to. I can assure you that we are working together on a strategy which will hopefully even enhance what is already in place for trail users. It is not easy. Unless you want to take over complete control of anything, as a government, the decisions are not easy because you are trying to keep the community involved, you are trying to find that balanced approach. It would be very simple for us to just take over every trail in Nova Scotia and dictate how it should be done, but I think it's better to give the opportunity for local users to have the input.

MR. CAREY: I understand that New Brunswick and maybe some other provinces have been working on legislation for snowmobiles, all-terrain vehicles and so on. Is there any interaction between the various provinces to try to get something that's uniform?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: What I can tell you is that committee is looking at those types of issues. We are taking a look at what New Brunswick is doing. P.E.I., not so much an issue. It's a much smaller province geographically, but New Brunswick would be more in line with what we would look at. I can tell you that we have been looking at what they are doing, whether it's through the Snowmobilers Association, ATVANS or the trail groups, on working together. The legislation could be a part of that, depending on exactly what you're going to legislate. Some people may feel that legislating rather than having the voluntary permit system where it's not voluntary, it's legislated. Those are issues which we have to find a balance for, and those are discussions that we're having.

Minister Russell has been taking a lead role in that. It's safe to say that he knows a fair bit of the history behind each organization, and we feel comfortable that in taking a look at what's working and what's not working in New Brunswick and in various areas of the country that we will come up with a Nova Scotia solution which is as fair as possible. I know I've had issues myself with a farmer along the Trans Canada Trail, an issue that we had to get the farmer involved in, an issue that we got the local group in my region, which was the Ceilidh Coastal Trails Association, involved, and somebody from the Federation of Agriculture. I met with them as the local MLA, and then had discussions with staff. We tried to come up with a solution, and it worked for that particular case. Sometimes it has to be case by case, other times it has to be something which is more province-wide.

MR. CAREY: The other side of your portfolio, with the Active Kids, Healthy Kids project, by dating myself, when I was young I didn't have to worry about being active because my parents had a planned agenda for me to do work after school and so on. I realize that if you're not from a rural area, maybe that's a little more difficult. I personally have a little bit of a problem, that young people seem to think that they need organized sport before they can be active. I'm just wondering what education is being put forward and what co-operation are you getting from teachers and parents that will help this, so that we have more activity that isn't necessarily an expense or something that has to be organized by adults and that type of thing? Is there some planning there and some co-operation?

[Page 668]

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Certainly. Perhaps I will give you a little bit of background on the Active Kids, Healthy Kids. The Active Kids, Healthy Kids is a strategy which the Sport and Recreation Commission is the leader on. The goal, really what we want to see in Nova Scotia and what we work on, now through the Office of Health Promotion and through Sport and Recreation, is to get more kids active. What we see is that trend of those being active as young people continue to be active as older adults. Really what it is is a change in the culture and a change in the attitude, a change in decisions for physical activity, diet, exercise. We know and the research shows that we can eliminate things such as type 2 diabetes. Certainly the chronic disease prevention strategy will be tied into that as well.

The Active Kids, Healthy Kids has various aspects to it. One is policy and program development, and another aspect is the Active School Communities component of that. In the Active School Communities portion of that, there is the coordination and implementation of six regional plans around the province on physical activity with participation with partners from Sport and Recreation, Health, Education, as well as other interested people and/or organizations. The Sport and Recreation regional representatives are taking the lead role on those action plans. In fact, I know that many of our regions have already been meeting and getting their strategies prepared.

[10:00 a.m.]

The Active School Communities is going along quite well. The goal through the Active School Communities is to increase physical and social environments that support active, healthy lifestyles among children and youth through the collaboration of teachers, students, parents, administrators and community leaders, and Sport and Recreation, Health and other interested sectors.

Examples of after-school community initiatives, after-school programs: transportation, active safety routes, physical environments, playgrounds, intermurals, supportive curriculum, physical education, youth leadership. In fact, this morning one of our colleagues, the member for Halifax Bedford Basin, is at a school in her riding, J.L. Ilsley, one of the schools, after-school communities, as we had to pick pilots. As with any strategy, you only have so many dollars. This being the case in this one, it's $2.4 million over three years.

We have eight schools which we are piloting on this: Evelyn Richardson in Barrington; Kingston Elementary School and Pine Ridge Middle Schools in the Municipality of the County of Kings, the Village of Kingston - which I'm not sure the member is aware of, but I can certainly get him more information on that one - J.L. Ilsley, as I mentioned; Hebbville Academy in Lunenburg; Hants North feeder schools in the Municipality of East Hants; Cusack-Cornwallis school in Cape Breton Regional Municipality; East Antigonish Academy in the Municipality of the County of Antigonish; École Stella-Maris in the Municipality of Clare; and Waycobah First Nation Secondary School near Whycocomah, a First Nations school. So we have nine in total.

[Page 669]

The Active School Communities, in my mind, one of the mistakes we make many times - and I guess I'm speaking not only as a politician, as a parent, but perhaps as a former physical education teacher - is that we look at, as you said, organized sport as the only way. Organized sport is an important way, and many people keep active in that respect. The goal which we should be focused on is not simply saying that everything has to be organized. It may be an intermural activity for a child before school starts, and making sure your gymnasium is open.

This is one of the challenges that's faced in many schools. I have been in schools where the opportunity is there, and I have been where they haven't been. It should be open at recess, lunch hour, there should be opportunities. I have seen examples of schools where - we have some tremendous examples in the province - the corporate community has been involved in getting people active, where teachers and very often the principal has to take a leadership role in that, and parents have to buy in.

It really is everything from making sure that the options are there for people. Right now we work with Education in the further development of such things as the policy with respect to making sure that our schools are open as much as possible for activities after school as well. The P to 9 physical education program, as well as the PAL program, Physically Active Lifestyle in the high school curriculum, has been raised actually in the Education estimates as well. I know there has been some concern by the member for Timberlea-Prospect with respect to that program. As someone who previously taught that program, it was a program which does have a lot of flexibility in it. Certainly I've seen some excellent programs provided in areas, you do not need every facility simply because you don't have every facility. That's just not the way life is sometimes in rural Nova Scotia. You don't have every facility at your fingertips, but you make do.

We work very closely with the Department of Education. One of the stumbling blocks is P3 schools, quite frankly. When the previous government signed many of those deals, fortunately in my area we do not have the problem because we have a certain number of hours where people do not have to pay and it's enough hours that we don't have to worry about it, but there have been significant challenges especially in the HRM where people have to pay ungodly amounts of money to get the usage of a school gymnasium, signed by the previous minister. We have tried to deal with that as best as possible. We are dealing with it in the best way possible. Certainly, as I mentioned, there are challenges with respect to that. We will continue to work with Education. We will continue to work with the various departments in government, it is a collaborative approach.

Another aspect of the Active Kids, Healthy Kids is Active Community Environments, and that's really building awareness among municipal planners, engineers, councillors, as well. A three-year plan has been completed in co-operation with the Ecology Action Centre to increase active modes of transportation, walking, cycling, wheeling, skating, scooting, skateboarding and running. In fact I was speaking to someone from the Ecology Action

[Page 670]

Centre outside the Legislature here the day before yesterday about our partnership. They felt very strongly about the partnership and they're going to be visiting 25 communities across the province to meet with our youth, to meet with decision makers, planners, engineers, recreational directors and traffic authorities to support active transportation.

They're going to assist schools with the implementation of active routes through school programs, and conduct a youth-led cycling tour of selected communities, 10 to 15, during July and August, in co-operation with the Youth Conservative Corps, with the Department of Environment and Labour obviously involved there. They will be providing workshops and special events for youth, such as bike rodeos, bike safety and maintenance workshops. We feel very strongly about that partnership. I know that the Ecology Action Centre does, as well. I think it will be a positive public education.

One of the keys is simply integrating the Physically Active Lifestyle, physical activity message into existing parent education initiatives. Another aspect is providing training for health care providers. Another aspect is to coordinate the distribution of Health Canada/Society for Exercise Physiology guidelines, educating our sport providers, developing a provincial recognition program, providing advice and assistance to a proposed Health Canada campaign on active living and nutrition, and coordinating the SummerActive program, in partnership with Health Canada. That will be coming up quite shortly, actually. I believe it's within a month, that we will be involved in the SummerActive program.

The progress to date on that aspect of it is that the Canadian Alliance for Healthy Eating and Physical Activity in co-operation with Cancer Care Nova Scotia and the Sport and Recreation Commission are seeking expressions of interest in a short-term project to complete the initial assessment and recommend initiatives to enable professionals in health care, recreation and education to advise parents, clients about physical activity. Cancer Care Nova Scotia is contributing about $20,000 to that, and Active Kids, Healthy Kids strategy is contributing $10,000.

Now, as a parent, it's certainly something that I'm cognizant of, perhaps more now than I used to be, seeing too many kids coming home and spending time on the computers. That's a challenge. It's a challenge for all parents. There is where it doesn't come into just money, because it doesn't cost any money to make a decision to go for a walk. All you need is a pair of sneakers on your feet. In my mind, that is what we need to encourage, and that's where the use of trails and such comes into play. As a government I think we need to focus more on the activities which don't cost money. Again, it's not just about money.

The evaluation monitoring is also an important aspect of Active Kids, Healthy Kids. We did a research project, and Mike Arthur from the Sport and Recreation Commission, who is with me, has taken the leadership role on the research aspect of it and on the monitoring aspect of it, in co-operation with a wide variety of groups, including Recreation Nova Scotia, among many others. Certainly, the research which was done was done using what's called

[Page 671]

an accelerometer. An accelerometer attaches to your belt clip and measures your hip movement. What we did was take a look at Grades 3, 7 and 11. By measuring that hip movement, we can measure how many steps, how much physical activity that individual student has achieved during the day.

Now the students who used the hip monitors were just randomly picked around the province. It was right across the province, in rural areas and in urban areas. It was interesting, taking a look at that research piece. It was interesting from my point of view, seeing at the Grade 3 level where a high percentage was achieved where they need to be with regard to seeing the benefits. As you move forward, in Grade 7, you saw that starting to drop, and in Grade 11, a further drop.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The member has one minute to finish his questions.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: One of my concerns in that is young females, seeing the dramatic decline in the amount of physical activity they're getting for the benefit of health. Certainly, I think it's something we need to continue working on, whether it's through programs, whatever programs we have, through the Outdoor Leadership Development Program, as an example, that we have to continue to promote opportunities for women to be more involved. As someone who grew up with three sisters who were very physically active, I see that as very important. On the aspect of that research . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: The time has finished for the member for Kings West. You may come back, if you so wish, later.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: He may want me to expand on that. I can continue, can't I, to answer my question?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, you can finish up your response to the question.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: One of the aspects - I'm scared I will forget what I was saying mid-sentence, Mr. Chairman, so I appreciate it - of the research piece, in my mind, and I think it's important that this is put on the record. I know that we often don't get the chance to talk enough about what's happening in Tourism and the Office of Health Promotion, and I think it's important that MLAs have the opportunity to ask questions. It's easy, sometimes, to sit back and to criticize what is happening in government. It's quite something else to want to hear what is happening, and I appreciate my colleagues asking the questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We will move on, if you don't mind. There are no questions, obviously, from the NDP or the Liberal Party, since they are not here. Is there anyone from the PC caucus who would like to ask a question?

[Page 672]

The honourable member for Chester-St. Margaret's.

MR. JOHN CHATAWAY: Mr. Chairman, I very much appreciate this opportunity to ask a few questions. Oh my goodness, it seems incredible, about the great Tourism and Culture Department we have in Nova Scotia, that there are no questions from the Opposition, they're not here to say anything, which just seems very unfortunate. The main thing is, of course, I very much appreciate, Mr. Minister, that you've given so many details so articulately, the details of the many responsibilities you and the people in the department have. I think everybody is very well aware that we are certainly going forward. It's not a perfect life, necessarily, but it's certainly going forward with the work of your department.

[10:15 a.m.]

I would like to really talk about the 27 museums that are run directly by the province, and I think there are 68 museums, community museums. I would certainly like to congratulate you. I used to think it was 25, but you mentioned in your opening remarks that Pubnico and Highland Village have joined the museums of Nova Scotia. When I first came to Nova Scotia for my first and only job, living in Lunenburg County, in 1967, it was at the same time Ross Farm - the people in the area had gone and said we should have an agricultural museum and that's indeed what did happen. It's certainly a valuable museum.

The other thing is there are 27 of them across this province. Way back there was a Lynton Martin who I think was very influential in this system that we have. He certainly had a system that the department has very much developed, and we're going in a very good direction. Of course, in Lunenburg there is a fisheries museum. Again, everybody who visits that is very knowledgeable about that area, either Nova Scotians or from out of the province, and become fully aware of what we're doing there.

I'm always amazed that next year, 2004, is the 400^th Anniversary of the Acadians establishing themselves. It's just so amazing. It was even shocking, one time I was out West at a federal meeting of municipal councillors. We were in Regina, and some of the tours were to walk around and see some nice buildings in Regina. I remember distinctly the guide was very good, and she said, here is one of our oldest buildings in Saskatchewan. This building was built in 1911. Well, basically, you realize that in Nova Scotia we have all sorts of good buildings far older than 1911. I would certainly compliment you and the department for maintaining this system.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Could I interrupt for a moment? Does the member have a question he would like to ask the minister?

MR. CHATAWAY: Yes, indeed. If you could just give me the details of the assistance for - these are not necessarily within the department - the 68 museums, and what is the help you have for these?

[Page 673]

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: We have the Community Museum Assistance Program, as I mentioned in my opening comments a bit earlier. It funds non-profit, permanent museums whose primary functions are to acquire, conserve, research, communicate and exhibit for the purpose of study, education and enjoyment of material evidence of human and natural history of Nova Scotia. The archival or fine arts activities integrated within an eligible museum are eligible for funding, however, stand-alone archives or art galleries are not.

As you mentioned, the community museums, there are roughly about 68. It's a program which under the previous administration, before our government, there was a moratorium on the number of museums. I know we ran into this issue up in the member for Cumberland's riding, because there were museums which weren't able to apply to the program. Philosophically I do not feel and I don't believe our government feels that that was fair, because they should have an opportunity to apply to that program. We opened that up, as a government, and it's something which I think was the right decision at the time.

Through the Community Museum Assistance Program, we have maintained our commitment to funding for those museums to our levels of last year. Also, as I mentioned earlier, we have the Strategic Development Initiative that I mentioned to the member for Kings West. That is another excellent opportunity for our museums and our heritage organizations to take advantage of. The CMAP, which is the Community Museum Assistance Program, has provided funding to an additional 11 museums since we came into government. That just shows, there were 11 museums that weren't able to get funding, when we came in, that now can, across our province.

One of the challenges which I have had the last couple of years is that I have had MLAs on the floor asking questions, suggesting that we were cutting our funding to the community museums. That simply isn't the fact. We made a decision on our funding for community museums to break it up into two blocks. The main block, obviously, being the Community Museum Assistance Program, and the other block being the Strategic Development Initiative. There are many excellent initiatives which have happened because of that Strategic Development Initiative. At first, when that program came into being, it was $100,000. That program is now at $200,000. Those opportunities were not there for museums before we came into government.

Just a couple of weeks ago I had the opportunity of meeting in Orangedale, meeting there at one of their museums under the Community Museum Assistance Program, in my particular area. I met there not just with the Orangedale Station Museum but with the Canada Railway Association in Nova Scotia. They put a plan together of working together, if someone came to the province and wanted to learn more about our rail communities across the province and where to stop and what museums - I know in Musquodoboit, I believe it is, or perhaps in the riding of the member for Eastern Shore, there is the Railway Museum there, as an example. They applied through the program, received funding and they put a brochure

[Page 674]

together. So now someone coming into the province can have that brochure and a map of where to go in Nova Scotia, if you have that particular interest in railway and museums.

Certainly the opportunity is there for funding for various projects. I know the member probably has lots of questions on the museums. If the member wants me to talk further about the research which was being done, I would have no problem with that, on the Active Kids, Healthy Kids. I can go back to museums as well, whatever the member would like.

MR. CHATAWAY: I very much appreciate this opportunity, because I do know of some of the assistance, more in my area. For years I was the Chairman of the Chester Municipal Heritage Society. We saved the station in Chester. Of course, then we went on and we had various projects in and around Chester. We saved the station when it was basically released. Then we saved a tower, and now we've started a museum. I would very much like to compliment the Department of Tourism and Culture, or the museum system of Nova Scotia, giving us support. It was very important.

I think one of the wisest things is to do that. We have so much history in Nova Scotia, and it's very important. You cannot have somebody far away in Halifax running the museums, you have to get the local people of the area who are interested. I think the system that we have, it may not be entirely, 100 per cent perfect, but it is 95 per cent perfect. We're very much dealing with encouraging people in the area to go ahead and save the museum. I know the Lordly House Museum is one of the 68 museums, possibly getting some assistance. It's basically put in by people of the area.

In fact, one of the things I would like to compliment is this card. I spent $27 for it, but it lets me into every museum in Nova Scotia. It's a very important card, because you're doing that and you're supporting local museums, et cetera, and at the same time giving everybody the picture that we have to save the museums by everybody going to them. It's a very informative and a very good system that we have. Another thing is that I very much appreciated it when you visited my riding, just a short visit, you could have spent days there. I remember that we did visit the Lordly House Museum.

Also, we talked about Oak Island and the various people who have an interest in Oak Island. In fact, just to bring you up to date, of course, Oak Island Tourism Society is a non-profit, non-partisan group that is trying to get an interpretation centre on Oak Island. Basically we have certainly had good assistance from the people in Tourism who have given us help with that. We have talked to the federal people, too. But the main thing is the people in the local area, we have to, of course, lead it ourselves, it's our responsibility. We're certainly going in that direction. We don't want any form of government to come and do it all for us, but at the same time if they have some assistance, it would be very good, as we've had for years in Nova Scotia with our museum system. I just wanted to sort of bring you up to date on the Oak Island Tourism Society.

[Page 675]

The other thing is, there are 27 museums in Nova Scotia that are run directly by the department, what do you have to do to become qualified to be part of the provincial museum system?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I appreciate the question, it's actually a very timely question. We recently welcomed a new museum into our Nova Scotia Museum family in West Pubnico, our Acadian representative in our museum system. I know the Minister of Finance is very proud of this, the Minister responsible for Acadian Affairs, and it also affects the member for Yarmouth. Certainly it's one of the key strategic initiatives which we're moving forward on for the Acadian celebrations, including our $750,000, an additional investment for marketing opportunities and such, our new Acadian liaison officer, our new opportunities in working through the Tourism Partnership Council on a specific Acadian tourism plan, as well as a number of other initiatives.

In order to become part of the Nova Scotia Museum, we have a board of governors for museums, provincially. That particular museum was involved in getting some program dollars through our Community Museum Assistance Program, and then made a presentation to the museum board. From there we moved forward on putting them as part of the Nova Scotia Museum. What we have taken a look at over the past couple of years is some of the gaps we have in our system. One of the gaps was an Acadian representative. Previous to that we saw a gap in that we did not have a Gaelic representation, and that's where we put the Highland Village in place.

I think there are further opportunities. It may not be in the next year or two, but it may be down the road. It has to be done at a certain - capacity is not the word I'm thinking of - level which is reflective of the Nova Scotia Museum. Whether it's Mi'kmaq, perhaps, or Black or whatever the case might be, I think there are additional opportunities. We are so diverse in Nova Scotia with respect to our cultures. It has to have historical significance and it has to reflect the Nova Scotia Museum. I think that museum in particular is a good example. The Highland Village, they waited for a great number of years to become part of the Nova Scotia Museum. I believe they must have spent about seven or eight years trying to get into it.

[10:30 a.m.]

The previous government made some commitments. I remember this came up during the election in 1999. It's not in my riding, it's in another local riding, Victoria. This was an issue that someone had forwarded me during the campaign which was really not one I raised at all during the campaign. People involved in that particular museum felt that they were given some commitments, not at the staff level but politically - which were not by the local member - that were not followed up on. I was very proud when our government made a decision to make them part of the Nova Scotia Museum family.

[Page 676]

In my mind we don't realize sometimes what it means to a local community organization to be given that recognition, as part of the Nova Scotia Museum family. It's not just about the dollars, it's about the recognition of the importance of that particular museum or the importance of the cultural aspect of it, the heritage. I think that's being reflected now in the Acadian community. We're very proud. Not to say that they don't have a lot of work to do, they have a tremendous amount of work to do. We have a great deal of work to do in our new member of the Nova Scotia Museum family. They realize that. Infrastructure will be a challenge. It's something that we're working closely with Acadian Affairs on, we're working closely with the organization. I know that the federal government has had some involvement. It's something that has to be addressed if we want to further enhance the product which is there.

Again, as I mentioned, the Nova Scotia Museum plays a vital role, not only in the heritage aspect of the province but also for tourism. That's reflective in our exit surveys that we do. That's reflective in our tourism plans for the year. That's reflective in what families want when they come to Nova Scotia. I mentioned yesterday in my comments as well about another Nova Scotia Museum member, the Maritime Museum, how plans are happening to take a look at what the possibilities might be there and what expansion or what that could mean to the waterfront here in Halifax. We can point to many museum examples in and around the province.

I'm going to give the member a few, just for the record. The Museum of Natural History - I will give you last year's estimates as an example - was almost $1.2 million; the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic, $850,000; the Museum of Industry, over $500,000; locally-managed museums, $2.7 million; directly-managed museums, $1.5 million; the Community Museum Assistance Program, $870,000; strategic and business development, $207,000; Heritage Resource Services, $717,000; locally-managed museums, $49,000; the Old Sydney Society, Cossit House, $36,000; Shelburne Historical Society, $34,000; Firefighters' Museum, $64,000; Lunenburg Marine Museum Society, the Fisheries Museum of the Atlantic, which I know the member would be quite interested in, we make a significant investment there, $372,000 last year.

To me that's a big investment to make when we have a lot of other challenges in health care and education, community services and our roads, and for the government to continue making this commitment I think speaks to the importance that we feel is there.

Cumberland Geological Society, that's the Fundy Geological Museum, they received $208,000; the Highland Village, $375,000; Pictou County Genealogy and Heritage Society, that's the McCulloch House, $14,000, and we have challenges there as well. They are challenges the previous government had and we continue to have, with respect to having the house open year-round. The Historic Restoration Society of Annapolis County, $34,000; Queens County Historical Society, Perkins House, $53,800. I'm not sure if the member for Queens is aware that much is being spent there. New Ross District Museum Society - I

[Page 677]

believe that's the member's - Ross Farm Museum, $487,000, a significant investment; and Shelburne Historical Society, $42,000.

Sherbrooke Village, as I mentioned yesterday, has over 100 buildings. One of our biggest investments is made in Sherbrooke Village, we're one of the biggest employers, if not the biggest employer along the Eastern Shore, along Guysborough, along with Liscombe Lodge, and that's through our private sector management contract - and should the member want me to expand on the private sector management contract, I could at least give some rough details - over $900,000, and the Desbrisay Museum and Wile Carding Mill, $28,000. The list goes on into community museums.

As I mentioned, we make significant investments at a time when we have some tough decisions. We went through the decisions not only in our department but really corporately, in getting to where we need to be as far as a balanced budget. I am quite proud of the fact that we have been able to maintain our budget and increase our budget this year to reflect our commitment as a government, to tourism, heritage and culture. That's in the face of some very tough decisions on providing Nova Scotians with a second balanced budget, on providing Nova Scotians with a 10 per cent income tax reduction, on providing additional dollars in many other aspects.

I certainly feel, when people talk about important investments, that perhaps no greater investment can be made than in people. I see an investment in tourism, culture and heritage as an investment in people. I wish we could - I'm sure every member wishes we could, all Parties - spend more on every department. Certainly when we made a decision to put in a separate Department of Tourism and Culture, I think we made the right decision. There are varying views on that. The reason why I think it's important is because often things can get lost in the shuffle.

My concern was that when decisions were to be made that tourism would be part of such a big piece that perhaps it would get lost in the shuffle. You need to spend a great deal of time on tourism, culture and heritage, and in the Office of Health Promotion, dealing with many organizations. If you do not have a minister, whoever the minister of the day might be, to at least give as much time as possible, because we all know that everybody is busy with their ridings and busy in different portfolios, but if they are not able to give the time to put into meeting with these organizations and getting around the province - and I wish I had more time to do that, I've tried to make that effort, this now being my fourth year as the Minister of Tourism and Culture. I've tried to make that commitment, tried to get around the province as much as possible. I've been in Yarmouth, I've been in the museums there, I've been to visit their regional tourism association, I've been in your area, I've met with museums.

[Page 678]

There aren't too many museums that you can point to around this province that I haven't been in. I think that's important, for someone to have enough time to do that, to meet with the RTAs, to meet with as many municipal politicians as we can, to meet with different groups involved, whether it's through theatre - we had the World Theatre Congress coming up this year. Over the last few years we've had the Tall Ships. We've had tremendous events, provincially. The last few months we've seen events which have put Nova Scotia on the map, the World Junior Hockey Championships, as I mentioned earlier.

We need to seize every opportunity we can, of putting Nova Scotia on the map. Mr. Chairman, I indicated earlier that I would table the percentage change in our visitors at Nova Scotia VICs. I would like to table that now with the chairman. Perhaps it can be made available . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Those will be made available for all members, for all caucuses.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes. On that point, I think that it's important that we do have a separate department. Again, it's to make sure that the linkages are there, when Tourism was with Economic Development, it's to make sure that the linkage is there. We are an important economic generator. In anything that we put forward to my colleagues in Cabinet, anything we put forward to the industry, we show it's based on a business plan, it's based on a plan showing what the number will be, what this investment will mean in dollars and cents. It's not just about a commercial out there, it's about this investment will mean this much return, ROI, return on investment, to the Province of Nova Scotia.

It's a significant economic contributor, $1.37 billion last year, over 2 million visitors, over 1 million counselled. As I mentioned earlier, the more we can counsel the more we can keep here in Nova Scotia longer to spend more money. In going around the province, there are people who think, well, tourism is not really that important as far as marketing. I, 100 per cent, disagree with that. The research shows it. You can take a look at an area that does not spend the money on advertising, does not spend the money they need to on marketing the province as a whole, they lose numbers. They may be satisfied with that, but I believe that the investment is important, and we must continue to make that investment, and we must continue to find partners.

It's not enough for us to just put money into it, we need buy-in from the industry, which we have, we need buy-in from different levels of government, and I think the federal government has a bigger responsibility to play. We are fortunate to work with the Canadian Tourism Commission, we are fortunate to work with our other Atlantic Canada Provinces, but in my mind the federal government has a much larger responsibility. I would like to see them make stronger investments. I would like to see them take a look at such things as providing greater opportunities for provinces through the reduction in the fees they put forward to our airports, for such things as the air security charge, which I think should be eliminated.

[Page 679]

We have strongly suggested that, not only provincially, myself and the Minister of Transportation and Public Works, but we have said that at federal-provincial meetings. In fact we met with the Minister of Industry, Allan Rock, before Christmas. We could not get a federal minister to meet with the Tourism Ministers of this country from 1999, when I became minister, until this past Christmas. We had not had the opportunity as an entire federal-provincial - I should put it into context, I will say that the former Minister of Industry, Brian Tobin met with a few, three or four, ministers during his last summer. We could not get a meeting with the federal minister.

I think that's a sad day when the Tourism Ministers across this country, who I believe have legitimate concerns, who have legitimate ideas, could not meet with the federal minister. I congratulate Minister Rock for taking the initiative in meeting with us. I will say that he did take the time and put the energy into meeting with us, and we had some very good discussions. Further to that, we told the minister then that we wanted to meet with Minister Collenette, the Minister of Transport, because much of our focus has been geared towards transportation.

We have been very fortunate, to a great degree, in Nova Scotia, working closely with Transportation and working closely with the industry, on doing what we can. We've had our challenges, Icelandair being one of them, and we would like to see that come back. I know the Minister of Economic Development has done a tremendous job, working on the cargo side. I think we need to continue pushing forward. We had over 20 per cent of our European traffic coming through Icelandair.

[10:45 a.m.]

Now that's been picked up. We've been fortunate that this year, from Frankfurt, Germany directly to Halifax, we will see a flight coming back in, which was announced at the TIANS conference last November, that particular company being Lufthansa. We're very fortunate to see that. I can tell you that the Premier played a direct role in helping us get that here, along with the deputy minister, along with another representative from Nova Scotia, spent a great deal of time in and around Germany on trying to make those linkages and trying to see what opportunities, along with Team Canada as well, during the Team Canada mission.

Having the competition, I believe, at the airport is vital to the strength of our industry, because you need greater opportunities for people to fly in from various regions across the country, also into the United States and Europe and so on. The more opportunities we have for flights coming in, the cheaper those flights, the greater opportunity we have of getting visitors here and keeping them here for longer. I think that the federal government needs to take a look at many of their policies, the air travel security charge being one of them, everything from competition to the information available to competing airlines, and on the list goes.

[Page 680]

Certainly, I know that the member for Yarmouth has always had concerns regarding our regional travel with regard to Air Canada. We have been fortunate, I know, to see a lot of work done with himself and the Minister of Economic Development and the Minister of Transportation and Public Works on seeing some positives there. It's always a concern, the regional opportunities being a challenge for us here in Nova Scotia, and a challenge across the country. This is not a Nova Scotia problem. This has been a challenge. The airline industry, you have to feel some sympathy - I don't know if that's really the word - you have to feel something for the industry given September 11^th, given that right now they're dealing with SARS, you have mergers happening, the many challenges which they have faced.

I have to say one of the most interesting meetings I've had was last year when we hosted the Tourism Ministers across the country, one of the meetings the federal minister wouldn't come to. We had the opportunity to sit down with Robert Milton. It was quite interesting. We had just the Tourism Ministers in the room at the time, and to have the opportunity to ask him questions was quite an experience. He is quite an interesting individual, he certainly has a big job on his hands. It's certainly an issue that's been on the agenda every year and will continue to be on the agenda, because transportation is vital to the tourism industry; transportation, not only by air but also by road.

Perhaps if the member might give me a few moments, I will touch on our work with the Transportation and Public Works Department here in Nova Scotia, and the strong commitment that I feel we've made in turning things around for transportation here in Nova Scotia, which is vital for tourism in Nova Scotia. You have to have good 100-Series Highways, you have to have quality roads throughout this province. The Eastern Shore is a perfect example as one which was raised by a number of motorcoach companies, one which was raised by a number of tourists, one which was raised by the local people, and one where we saw a commitment made, a five-year commitment I believe it is, over 60 kilometres of paving, which will make a significant difference along the Eastern Shore for travel.

That's important with respect to our resort in that particular area. It's also important to Sherbrooke, it's also important along the Eastern Shore. The capital budget when we came into government was over $30 million, it's now well beyond that, it's over $100 million, and it will continue growing. Is it where we need it to be? No, it's not, but it will continue to grow.

One of the main issues, when I talk to a tourism operator, ends up being about the roads, especially in rural Nova Scotia but actually all over Nova Scotia. Here in HRM, I guess in order to get to HRM you have to travel and a great deal of HRM roads are rural roads. It certainly speaks to the need for a strong transportation system in our province. Also, if we continue to market to get people here, I believe they deserve the opportunity to have a good quality of roads. The longer we can keep them here, the more dollars they will spend, the more money we will have for such things as health care and education.

[Page 681]

Now what's really been unfortunate, I've noticed something, is there haven't been many questions from the Opposition in the House about Tourism over the last four years. That's unfortunate. Perhaps they're not really worried about it, perhaps they're not committed to it. I don't know, they have to answer those questions on the doorsteps this summer. I certainly won't mind answering those questions when I go to the doorsteps this summer about our commitment as a government to Tourism or for that matter to any other department within government. I think it's important to put it on the record as such.

We always get criticized, at times, by various MLAs, especially from across the floor, for not speaking and not having the opportunity to talk about our portfolios. Well, I'm taking that opportunity today, Mr. Chairman. Why? Because I believe in Tourism and Culture and heritage, and the Office of Health Promotion. I know it's funny, they want questions answered but where are they today? I will simply leave it like that. I think it's unfortunate. I will pass it back over to the next MLA who wants to ask questions, and we will go from there.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The member for Chester-St. Margaret's has a few minutes left.

MR. CHATAWAY: I very much appreciate it. What you've just said is extremely articulate, it's very good. I think we have good ideas, but we have to let everyone know what we're trying to do. It's very important. Just two questions. Basically a comment on what you just said, on the museum system that we have, I think you made the point that we don't just have a collection to save old buildings but we also have to make that museum system attractive to everybody in Nova Scotia as well as around the world. It's very important to mesh it together, so it's going in the right direction.

I know the Oak Island Tourism Society, it was the advice of the department that we have a template, to get a template for a business plan. We're certainly thinking about a business plan for that. I am sure you will hear it in the future. The question, what is the cost of the Doers and Dreamers Guide, and what do you foresee as the goodness of the Doers and Dreamers Guide? I know it's a big book. I would very much appreciate your analysis of it.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: That's a very good question. As I mentioned earlier, we have the Doers and Dreamers Guide, as well as Du reve a l'aventure, in French, 75,000 copies I believe the number is. The cost is roughly, and I can get the exact figure should the member want that, $2 million to produce. We generally recoup about $1.7 million of that. So in large part it's paid through the advertising from local businesses across the province, local tourism businesses, local regional associations. Many of them use co-operative measures when they're going to get a page, some do not, but that lessens the cost.

What we see in the Doers and Dreamers Guide this year is a focusing once again on - you will see this is Nova Scotia, you will see connections to the Nova Scotia Web site, www.novascotia.com, you will see connections to get people onto that site and you will see

[Page 682]

that in everything we do, and you will see that in everything from the World Junior Hockey Championships, if you had the opportunity to watch them, you would have seen, around the clock, www.novascotia.com, you will see it in our television commercials, www.novascotia.com, it continues. The East Coast Music Awards being another example of that.

The Doers and Dreamers Guide, from all accounts, for visitors coming into the province, in fact I had one of our Opposition MLAs ask yesterday, there was a group coming in for a convention, gave me a list of names and asked if we could send it, and I suggested, no problem, we can send a Doers and Dreamers Guide to each individual. This guide is seen - I don't know if the chairman will agree with me - as perhaps one of the bibles for Nova Scotia. It's perhaps not used as much as a bible, but it's perhaps the Nova Scotia Tourism bible. People who use that guide see it as an opportunity to find out what services are offered across the province, what level of accommodations, what star rating through Canada Select they are going to see, is it a bed and breakfast, is it an inn, is it a major hotel chain, whatever the case might be, what's offered along that particular trail, it's broken up into different trails in Nova Scotia.

We have been very fortunate to have a strong marketing team within Tourism. Our agency of record is very strong. We have a lot of experience within our department, the deputy bringing much of that experience, along with people such as our executive director, and there are many within the Tourism Division who have a lot of experience, and they know the business. They don't do it just as a fly-by-night operation, they do it based on research. Perhaps, at times, we don't always see much of the marketing that is being done in Nova Scotia, the reason being, obviously, is because we're trying to get people to come here, so we are advertising, whether it's in partnership with The CAT or the Scotia Prince down in the United States, or perhaps it's with other Atlantic Canada provinces and Europe, we had over 100 tourism operators and such in Toronto a few weeks ago.

As I mentioned yesterday, that Travel and Leisure Show from all accounts ended up being not the Toronto Travel and Leisure Show but the Nova Scotia Travel and Leisure Show, because we had the strongest presence there. That's from that $1 million commitment, an additional commitment, previous to this budget that we made which will affect tourism this year. Again, as I mentioned, that's not done based on just a gut reaction or anything else, that's based on return on investment, it's based on the numbers. In calculating our numbers for Tourism each year, we use what's called the Tourism Economic Impact Model. That model was put in place in 1996. It was done with a variety of partners, including Finance, I believe Acadia University was involved, along with many others within the industry. We've been using that model.

We have seen a significant increase in tourism revenues over the last number of years. As I mentioned, $1.37 billion, a record year for tourism. I think we should be proud of what we have achieved, although we still have a long way to go. I believe we have a huge

[Page 683]

potential, but that potential can only be reached on working with our partners, on focusing on our vision, on keeping on our plan, of using the research and on making further investment. I think that the recognition is there this year, that we are making that further investment. As long as I am in this portfolio, I will continue to push my colleagues for even more investment because I feel strongly about it, as I know many of our members do.

Our local people, if you had the opportunity to go to the Pineapple Awards, they recognize people who have done significant things who are just average people across Nova Scotia, but who get recognized for going that extra mile for our visitors. That is what this province is all about. It's about going that extra mile for our visitors. Hospitality is the key to keeping them here. What we have seen in our research is once we get someone to visit Nova Scotia, we can get them to return, it's to get them here that first time. We are very much focused, in Atlantic Canada, with our Right Here, Right Now, and we have seen some people criticize that, but I certainly think using focus groups, if you take a look and listen to what many Nova Scotia musicians, high-profile songwriters and such have been saying, it's that they also believe in what we have done.

[11:00 a.m.]

MR. CHATAWAY: Mr. Minister, I very much appreciate this. This will be my last question. Your last comment was that tourism revenues last year were about (Interruptions) Anyway, long story short, in my riding, of course, is Peggys Cove, and it's a very important attraction, certainly to the area but also to Halifax, et cetera. I would just like to know if there are any improvements to Peggys Cove in the near future. I do know that the parking for The Whalesback was very much improved. In the future, if there is something that was going in that direction, I would like to be informed of that.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I will certainly get you the details on that. We have done a great amount of work, and perhaps I will have an opportunity to mention it in my further comments. Mr. Chairman, I am sure you have another member to recognize for the next hour.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Sackville-Beaver Bank.

MR. BARRY BARNET: Before I get into my questions, I have some observations. I want to ask the chairman a quick question, if I can. Do I have an hour now, or how does that work?

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have 10 minutes. You can come back.

MR. BARNET: Where there is no other speaker for the Opposition . . .

[Page 684]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, if there is no other speaker, we will come back to you, member, but right now you have 10 minutes.

MR. BARNET: I guess what I would like to do then is, before I get into questions, I will spend the 10 minutes, expecting that maybe there might be a speaker from one of the Opposition Parties coming in afterwards, and if not I will finish up my comments and observations and then ask questions. Let me start by saying, Mr. Minister, that it's my belief that the Office of Health Promotion and the Ministry of Tourism and Culture provide you with a unique opportunity that I think will prove to be extremely beneficial to Nova Scotians in both of those sectors, both to those people who are involved in the health promotion, sport and recreation sector, as well as the tourism and culture sector.

I am sure you have probably seen this before, but I just want to point it out to you, the unique opportunity that I think exists. You touched on it to some extent earlier, but I believe that there is a growing opportunity and a growing trend towards . . .

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I don't mean to interrupt the member, Mr. Chairman, but I want to ask a question. If a particular Party does not have any more questions and it's reverted around the table to whoever might ask a question, does that mean that the next MLA does not have a full hour, should there be no one else to recognize?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I understand that they can have their hour, if they so choose.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I'm just getting clarification on it.

MR. BARNET: The opportunity that I was speaking of was the opportunity to combine Tourism and Health Promotion through the Sport and Recreation aspect of it. You touched on it briefly when you spoke about the tourism impact of the Brier, as well as other events like the World Junior Hockey Championships. I want to point out to the minister that the area that I represent, I wouldn't describe as a hotbed of tourism activity. In fact, I think you would be hard-pressed to find somebody who actually comes to Sackville-Beaver Bank for what you would call the traditional tourism things, even cultural events as well. We are pretty much limited to a couple of small museums. The sights I've described in the past in the Legislature, of Sackville, there are 60 by 100 lots and bungalows, basically. We're a bedroom community that traditionally isn't one of those areas where people would come and want to go visit Sackville because of its sights and the scenery.

They do come to Sackville specifically for a number of sporting-related events, traditionally around the traditional sports, hockey, baseball, curling, these types of things. In our community, the area that I represent, we're uniquely blessed to probably be the one area with the greatest number of golf courses to population bases. In my constituency, I think we have seven golf courses: Ashburn Golf Club, which is located at the boundary of my constituency, is one of the oldest in Halifax County; Lost Creek, one of the newest; Sackville

[Page 685]

Golf Course, which opened in June 1961, the year and the month that I was born; Pin-Hi Golf Course is another one; and probably the crown jewel for tourism and golf-related tourism in Nova Scotia, Glen Arbour. Many people don't realize that Glen Arbour actually has two golf courses; it has a championship 18-hole golf course that has been described and written up nationally and internationally in magazines as being one of the best new golf courses in the world. I know the minister has had the opportunity to visit and actually play that golf course, and so have Ministers of Tourism from across this country. I know they were there to participate in some events, I think it was last year. So those types of tourism and tourist-related sectors are the kinds of things that happen in the community that I represent.

I want to point to an event that's happened in metro Halifax that seemed to escape recognition by the media, recognition by those people who follow these types of events, and it was an event that was put on by a gentleman named Alex LeBlanc. Alex is a softball umpire coordinator with a group called SPN, Slo-Pitch National. Alex lives in Beaver Bank, and he organizes slo-pitch events, slo-pitch ball tournaments for Canada.

Alex, on a regular basis, brings slo-pitch tournaments to Halifax, to the metro area, to Sackville, to Beaver Bank, and I can point out to you that one such event, and they rank these things the way some sports do, there's mixed, there's just male and there's just female, and they have an A category, B, C and D, but I know of one event that Alex hosted here in Halifax, the vast majority of the games were played on the Halifax Commons. It brought in, I think, 190 teams, over 2,000 athletes for a week-long period. The impact of that sporting event must have been tremendous on the tourism visits to Nova Scotia and to Halifax. That's just one event.

Alex will often host two or three of these types of events in a year, and often, Mr. Minister, the events are held in what I think the tourism industry would call the shoulder season, either in the early Spring as Spring openers or in the Fall to wind down the softball season. I think what we need to do as a government is to try to further explore these types of events and see if we can foster a relationship with people like Alex LeBlanc and Slo-Pitch National and these types of groups to make sure that we're getting our fair share and then some of these types of events.

I spoke of two sports, I spoke of slo-pitch softball and I spoke of golf, but we all know, Mr. Minister, of the impact that hockey has had on tourism and on visits to Nova Scotia recently. You've mentioned it, other members have mentioned it, and we've talked about the World Juniors. I know that Nova Scotia, along with Quebec, I believe, is putting forward a bid to host the World Hockey Championship for 2007. I can only imagine that if the World Juniors was the success it was, I suspect we will see that the World Hockey Championship will be an equal success.

[Page 686]

Those are headline events that get a lot of attention in the media and do a great deal to promote Nova Scotia internationally, but there are a lot of other events that for one reason or another seem to get omitted from the spectrum. I look at tournaments, hockey tournaments like the SEDMA tournament, I think there were 270 or 280 teams in the SEDMA tournament. It was the subject of several resolutions in the House this session.

We saw teams from all over the world show up. In fact, I was asked to participate in an exhibition game in advance of the SEDMA tournament for a team from the Czech Republic. Young 13- and 14-year-old players were in Sackville, being hosted by a Sackville team, and they were there for a couple of days. They participated in the SEDMA tournament after their event at the Sackville Arena. They were able to draw, I think, 1,500 or 2,000 people to the Sackville Arena, which is an amazing thing, because even our junior team has never been able to attract that kind of attention.

The good thing about it for Sackville was the spinoff side, which was that sport-tourism business was able to generate revenue not only for the canteen operator in the arena, but for the associated . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Sorry to interrupt, but the time is finished right now for the PC caucus. Can you just wrap up your response quickly, please.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Actually, just before I respond, Mr. Chairman, and it will be a very short response, unless the member would like me to have a full response, I want to introduce - given that I'm in budget estimates, I don't have the opportunity to introduce - a group of students here from the Cape Breton Highlands Academy. They are joined by their teacher, John MacKinnon. The Cape Breton Highlands is in the Belle Côte area, Terre Noire, in my riding. I just want to welcome them here. I know they just came in and they're getting a tour of Province House. This is for their information, this is a committee. There are two committees happening for budget right now, one in the Chamber and one here. MLAs have opportunities to ask questions to the various ministers and their departments. I just want to welcome them here. Hopefully the committee can offer their welcome to the class as well. (Applause)

With that, Mr. Chairman, rather than getting into a full, detailed answer on the member's point - it is a very good point - I will indicate that the Vince Ryan Tournament is one example, through the Destination Marketing Program we have partnered in. There are other examples, the World Juniors being another. We have the 2004 Women's World Hockey Championships coming up. We are certainly involved in respect to the senior men's, as you mentioned, in seeing what opportunity may exist for that. We have the potential to move forward to the next stage, seeing if we can get that opportunity, representing Canada.

[Page 687]

We also have a program through Sport and Recreation. Should an organization or community be hosting a national event, you can receive some assistance, I think it's about $2,500 that you can receive to host that national event. If the member wants some information, or any member, on what might be available, I can get that for the member or any member of the committee.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I too would like to echo the welcome to the visitors who are here. We are glad that you are joining us and hope your tour is enjoyable and informational. We will turn now to the NDP caucus. You have some questions.

The honourable member for Sackville-Cobequid.

MR. JOHN HOLM: Questions or comments, right, Mr. Chairman?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Questions or comments.

[11:15 a.m.]

MR. HOLM: Mr. Chairman, I will begin my remarks, which will probably be a little bit brief, by adding my welcome to our guests from Cape Breton. One of the things that does indeed go on when you're dealing with the estimates is that there's sometimes a bit of strategizing that also goes on. What we have been seeing today, and I mean no disrespect to the minister, the minister himself is a very nice chap, a very nice individual, a fine fellow and all that, but what the minister and his colleagues have been doing today has been involved in what is called strategy.

Mr. Chairman, the Premier of this province, as I begin my remarks, I have to say, is showing some contempt for this Legislature, because the Premier knows that his estimates were scheduled to appear in this committee today. Rather than being here, where he has a responsibility to be, to face the members of the Opposition, the media, to answer questions on his government's policies, but instead of being here, the Premier has chosen to go to Truro to make a political announcement in front of a pre-election backdrop, rather than coming here to answer hard questions.

The Government House Leader, the puppet master, is to be congratulated because he has done an excellent job in making sure that the Tory backbenchers were in here to fill the seats, to ensure that there was a quorum and to ask questions to drag out the time so that the Premier's estimates will not be called. It's very clear that this is exactly what is going on. The minister's estimates - the minister is responsible not only for Tourism, but Health Promotion - there isn't one red cent, not a nickel, not a dime identified in the budget under the Health Promotion lines.

[Page 688]

Mr. Chairman, I believe that the backbenchers of the Tory caucus are to be congratulated. You have been very good little Do Bees, you have been here to fill the seats, to fill in time, to ask questions. I watched from time to time and I have certainly seen the minister squirming, you had him on the ropes with the very hard questions you were asking - not! I just really felt I wanted to get this on the public record here this morning, and I am sure that my colleague, who will be the next who will have a chance to speak after I relinquish the floor, the member from the Liberal caucus, may have similar views.

Mr. Chairman, what we have witnessed today is a cover-the-Premier's-backside, nothing more than that. It is an attempt to fill up the time, to eat up the last four remaining hours of the estimates, so that the Premier would not take his place, where he should be, at the end of this table, to answer questions, whether that be questions about why he is giving this $155 vote-buying rebate at the time that they are, why he is forcing this strike, which is going on at this very moment, which is leaving some of the most vulnerable people in this province in the situation where they have been forced out of the homes where they had been into institutions or into the care of elderly family members, et cetera.

The Premier had a choice, he had a chance to be here to answer those questions up front, but this minister and the Tory backbenchers, under the direction of the Government House Leader and, I'm sure, under the instructions of the Premier have chosen not to allow that to happen. Mr. Chairman, that is a disgrace, it's a shame that all members of the Tory caucus must live with.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I will take an opportunity to respond, if I may.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, please do. (Interruptions) Order, please. You're welcome to make a comment, Mr. Minister. Keep it brief, please.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, well, I want to clarify a couple of things. I simply wanted to point out the member mentioned that there were no additional dollars in the Office of Health Promotion, the member is wrong. There are additional dollars in the Office of Health Promotion. If you take a look at what was there, the various aspects which make up the Office of Health Promotion, last year and compare that to this year's, you will see well over $1 million in additional dollars for the Office of Health Promotion. So that's one point of clarification.

Mr. Chairman, I think any question from any MLA, from any caucus, no questions are frivolous. I often hear this particular member talk about the importance of members having the opportunity to speak and ask questions. It's funny, I guess that only pertains to certain MLAs and not all MLAs. I certainly believe it goes to all MLAs. With that, that's all the comments I have to make in response to the member's comments.

[Page 689]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for that correction. It's time for the Liberal caucus, and you have up to one hour.

The honourable member for Cape Breton South.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, I too want to welcome the students who are here today. If they will permit us, we are trying to let Nova Scotians know, through this medium, this venue here today, exactly what's wrong with this process. As the parliamentary system is set up in Nova Scotia, we have an opportunity to question the Premier during Question Period on various issues of the day, particularly issues that affect all Nova Scotians, particularly fiscal issues of this province. We haven't had much opportunity to do that in Question Periods because of the fact that it's a very limited window of opportunity there.

We may get one question a day on that subject, so we depend on estimates, we depend on forums like the one we're going through today to question the Premier at length about his estimates, his own departmental estimates and his promises to the electorate of Nova Scotia prior to becoming Premier. I noticed the minister made a comment that MLAs from all Parties should have the opportunity. It's virtually unheard of that government MLAs on this committee would question their own minister on estimates.

There's only one reason why the members are doing that today, it's to filibuster this committee to the point where the time will have run out and we will not be able to question the Premier. That's the only reason why the MLAs are questioning the minister here today. They're running interference. The minister is aiding and abetting that process. There are a number of questions that I would have liked to ask the Premier today, concerning the fact that the Premier, this Premier, has said to Nova Scotians that he will not borrow any more money, yet $500 million more has been borrowed in this province since this government took over, including $128 million this year that's going to be borrowed, and borrowing is going to continue in this province for the next number of years under the watch of this government.

Those are the kinds of things we wanted to ask the Premier today, why he misled Nova Scotians as to whether or not any more money was going to be borrowed. The debt of this province is now approaching $12 billion, and the Premier doesn't seem to care about that. We don't have an opportunity to question him at length about why, for example, he said during the last election campaign that he would not increase taxes in this province, other than tobacco taxes. What do we see? We see an increase of 2 cents a litre at the pump for gasoline. Every single service and goods provided to Nova Scotians have been increased through increased user fees.

Those are the kinds of things we wanted to ask the Premier. Why did he go back on his word there? What went wrong with his promise that he wasn't going to increase taxes in this province? Where is the stand of this government? We would like to have the opportunity

[Page 690]

to ask the Premier, where does this government stand on the high insurance rates that are killing people in this province today? People can't afford to drive cars in this province any more because of high insurance rates. People can't afford to put home heating oil in their homes because of high rates for home heating oil. Is the Premier addressing those issues?

Where is the policy to address the issues that are literally crippling Nova Scotians' ability to live these days? We talk about the Health Promotion issue, and we wanted to get at the Premier about that. That is nothing more than an avenue to deflect criticism away from the current Health Minister of this province, by deflecting that over to the Department of Tourism and Culture, which has a limited budget on its own.

I would say to you, Mr. Chairman, that I'm very disappointed that we haven't had the opportunity, at least to this point - we still have an opportunity if we can get the Premier back in here before 1:10 p.m. I would hope that if the Premier is anywhere in the area that he would give us the courtesy of coming here and asking for permission to speak to this committee. He should be willing to do that because his part of the estimates process is probably the most important part of all. He is the First Minister of this province and the minister responsible for the operation of this government.

To sit here and have to witness a filibuster of the kind that we're witnessing here today, to do nothing else but to shield and protect the Premier from legitimate questions that will be asked by both the members of the NDP and the members of the Liberal Party, who I believe, both of us, want to get at the questions, want to get at the Premier about some of the legitimate questions concerning his budget, his so-called program budget surplus this year of some $14 million that he boasts about, yet he is borrowing $128 million. I want the Premier to say in the committee that yes, they're borrowing money. If that's the case, Mr. Premier, why have you gone back on your word that you weren't going to borrow any more money? What happened along the road to Damascus?

I also want to ask the Premier, what did he do about the high insurance rates in this province? Nothing. We wanted a committee to discuss that last year, and he said no. That's what I want to hear him say on the record in this committee, why he is not addressing the concerns that ordinary Nova Scotians have. I want him to tell the members of this committee why that program was put into place, the refund that's going out on the eve of an election. It's nothing more than a cynical way of trying to buy votes in this province, and hoping that Nova Scotians will buy into it.

Well, he should be able to tell this committee and all Nova Scotians that all Nova Scotians aren't going to get that $155. There are some 300,000 Nova Scotians who won't get that cheque for a number of reasons. Also, the 10 per cent decrease in provincial income tax next year does not affect all Nova Scotians. It affects Nova Scotians who are in the higher wage brackets. The more you earn, the more provincial income tax you pay, so you're going to get a 10 per cent break. However, there are many Nova Scotians who are living on

[Page 691]

minimum wage, who don't pay provincial income tax or are earning less than $30,000 a year and the impact on their wallets is going to be very minimal next year.

In other words, that's nothing more than an attempt to look after their friends in many cases, and it's also done at the expense of everybody in this province, because everybody in this province is going to have to pay the debt of this province. The money that's being borrowed to do what this government wants to do this year in order to get elected again, to buy people's votes in this province this year to get re-elected is going to be paid for in years to come by all Nova Scotians.

Do you realize, Mr. Chairman, that we're going to be paying $1 billion a year, this year, in interest payments alone to service the debt of this province? And the Premier and his Finance Minister think nothing of the fact of telling Nova Scotians, it's not over yet, we're going to continue to borrow well into the future in this province. We're going to continue to borrow on your future. We're playing chequebook politics here, and we don't have an opportunity to grill the Premier on these very important issues. We don't have an opportunity, save the opportunity we have during Question Period, which is very limited.

There are all kinds of issues here that we have to get the Premier to explain his position on. Why, for example, is he caving into the casino? There's a monetary item that we would like to get at, Mr. Chairman. This government has caved into the casino, showed their cards, if you will, even before they've had an opportunity to sit down and discuss this matter with the casino. I raised this matter in the House yesterday. Why should the casinos of this province have special status, and the people's lives be put at risk in a casino when municipal governments are light-years ahead of this particular provincial government in trying to effect a smoking ban in all public places in this province?

[11:30 a.m.]

I have yet to hear the Premier give a logical explanation for that. I have yet to hear the Premier state why he considers the casinos are a special case. Why should we put Nova Scotians at risk, working in a casino, in a smoking environment, when we say publicly that it's a health issue and no person working in this province should be subject to second-hand smoke? I want to hear the Premier say that to me in a forum where we can legitimately question him at length, not in a Question Period atmosphere where he can bob and weave and duck or pass the question off to somebody else.

I want to know why the Premier is now recanting on his Sunday shopping issue. He said that he reflected the opinion of Nova Scotians on Sunday shopping, and Minister Baker had said this matter will not be discussed again until the year 2005. Well, lo and behold, on the eve of an election, the matter is being discussed again. What they're trying to do now, Mr. Chairman, is hoodwink the people of Nova Scotia into thinking they're rethinking their

[Page 692]

position, but they're very careful not to say they're going wholeheartedly into a Sunday opening atmosphere. What they're saying is, we will try it on and see what happens.

Mr. Chairman, that's nothing more than another cynical attempt to buy votes, to give Nova Scotians the impression that this government is perhaps falling in line with the rest of the provinces in Canada and indeed is going to allow Sunday shopping. That is the kind of issue that I would have hoped we would have the opportunity to talk to the Premier about.

Why the change of heart? Well, I can tell you what the change of heart is, but I would like to hear it from the Premier. The change of heart is that they're offside with public opinion. Suddenly they realize they're offside with public opinion, and they're on the eve of an election. So suddenly Sunday shopping is not such a bad idea, although initially they weren't going to discuss it for another two or three years. It was on the shelf, it was forgotten about. But guess what? There's an election coming, and they're offside with public opinion.

Mr. Chairman, I'm suggesting that they're also offside with public opinion on tax issues. The Premier has consistently said he would not be increasing taxes in this province, which he did through many user fees and gasoline tax, and that he would not be increasing the debt of this province, which he has done to $0.5 billion since this government took over, $0.5 billion and growing, $1 billion next year, $1 billion - not million - out the window to service the debt. The Finance Minister will stand in his place in the House and state that this is a balanced budget, that this is a budget that's good for Nova Scotians - tongue in cheek - while they're borrowing money to get through this election.

How can you have a balanced budget when you're borrowing to meet your everyday expenses? That's what's going on with this government. Imagine the homeowner who is taking in $1,000 a month and spending $2,000 a month. How long before he or she is going to go bankrupt? Not too long. But do you know what, Mr. Chairman, this minister won't be around to answer to that because he will be gone. If this government is lucky enough to survive this election, they will worry about answering those problems then. If they don't survive the election, it's somebody else's problem. It's somebody else's problem, but Nova Scotia will be stuck with a $12 billion debt.

Mr. Chairman, I'm very disappointed that we have not had the opportunity to reflect on those issues with the Premier in a forum where the Premier would be required to at least engage in a dialogue, in a discussion with members of the NDP and the Liberal Party, regarding the fiscal policies of his government and the issues of the day that have been discussed in Question Period. He ducked. He ducked this today. He's being helped by the Government House Leader and the backbenchers who are doing their job and by a minister who is prepared to run interference.

[Page 693]

I believe that if this minister, Mr. Chairman, truly believes that the Premier should be accountable to this province, and through this medium here, through this venue, through this forum of discussion, then he should adjourn, he should allow his estimates to be adjourned, and he should go looking for the Premier to ask him to come in here and allow us to question him on his estimates. If the Minister of Tourism and Culture, and Health Promotion is truly interested in democracy here, he will know that we don't want to talk to him anymore, we want to talk to the Premier. We have a limited window of opportunity to do that, perhaps another hour and a half or perhaps even two hours.

Mr. Chairman, with those few remarks, I will just simply throw it to the minister. Mr. Minister, if you really believe in democracy in this province and you believe that we have the right as Opposition Parties to question the Premier on his estimates, knowing that we only have another couple of hours to do that, I would ask you to adjourn your estimates, and we will agree, and seek out the Premier to have him come before this committee, even if it means that we have to adjourn this committee until the Premier is available. I am putting that out as a challenge to you, Mr. Minister, that I would like to have the Premier come before this committee whenever he is available. I will end with that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Sackville-Cobequid said you don't have to answer a comment, previously, but I gave you that opportunity and I will give you that opportunity now.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I will take my opportunity to comment on a few of the comments made, Mr. Chairman. I will try not to keep it too long. Just reflecting on some of what the honourable member said, I recall in 1999 coming into government and really seeing the challenge before us. We put a plan forward in 1999, saying that we would balance the budget of this province by the third year, and we have done so, for the first time in 40 years. We have now delivered our second balanced budget and are delivering tax relief to Nova Scotians.

I think the challenge that any government has is doing what it said it would do, and we have done that, very clearly. It's something that previous governments have not done. (Interruptions) Well, I know that $3.6 billion was added to the debt under the previous administration, between 1993 and 1999. For me to hear an honourable member talking about the importance of debt, Mr. Chairman, is quite ironic.

With regard to tobacco, over 60,000 Nova Scotians have quit the habit of using tobacco since we formed government. And the fact of the matter is that previous governments had the opportunity to move forward on strategies, and they did not take the opportunity to do so. I don't know why, only they can answer that question. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

[Page 694]

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, I'm sure that gets under (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Order, please. The minister is responding. Please go ahead.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I'm sure that probably does bother previous Ministers of Health and previous members of government that didn't move forward on a tobacco strategy. Certainly, Mr. Chairman (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please, members. Can we listen to the minister finish his comments?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I feel very strongly about the strategy. It was put forward before I came into my portfolio, and it includes many aspects. I know that the Opposition, each Party has varying views on that strategy, and that's what democracy is all about. We can all have the opportunity to say what we think about it. The fact of the matter is that in such examples as the Student Drug Use Survey, a 13 per cent drop in the number of students using, from 36 per cent to 23 per cent, tobacco. As I mentioned, going from the worst province in the country, with regard to the use of tobacco, at 30 per cent, dropping to 22 per cent, is a significant drop. If we had seen movement like that previously, we would be even further ahead. We are now fourth-best in the country.

The member brings up the issue of the casino, and I know there are views from his Party, and we all know it's from a deal signed - many people refer to them as the Bernie clauses - under the previous Liberal Government. Certainly, there were concerns raised at that time by members of various Parties about that deal being signed. The fact of the matter is, there was a deal signed and we have to live with it, and do what is best for Nova Scotians.

Mr. Chairman, the member also mentioned Sunday shopping. I will touch on that a bit because it is an issue in the tourism industry. I don't mind responding to that one. I seem to recall in the Legislature just a couple of short years ago, listening to, I think it was the member for Lunenburg West just vehemently hollering across the floor at the government, from the Liberal caucus, wanting to make sure that we didn't do anything to move forward on allowing Sunday shopping. There is some irony in that as well. It's quite ironic. The Premier has said, time and time again, he's out listening to Nova Scotians, we as a government have been doing so, and the Premier has said we will be moving forward on issues with respect to that. The NDP are now talking about it as well, which is ironic. It's certainly an issue that is out there in the tourism industry.

Mr. Chairman, with respect to the tourism industry, perhaps I will take some time to talk about some of the initiatives we have done in the tourism industry to make an even stronger industry after a record year last year. The tourism industry in this province, as I

[Page 695]

mentioned earlier, is a $1.37 billion industry. We had a record year last year, over 2 million visitors, and we are going to continue working on initiatives that strengthen that industry. Now the members of each caucus may not think that questions are important for the tourism industry, and that's up to them because it is their prerogative, they have the option to ask whatever questions they want to ask, whether it's about Tourism or the Office of Health Promotion, I have to leave that up to them.

Whatever questions come forward to me in committee, regardless of which Member of the Legislative Assembly, I will respond to those questions. Certainly, we deal with deals which were signed previously, whether it's the casino deal, whether it's the deal that was signed with the Bluenose, whether it was the deal that was signed with Upper Clements Park, previous deals were signed. With respect to those deals, I suppose we could get into some of those deals here today, I wouldn't mind getting into those should any members want to get into them. I can certainly talk about the seven-year deal signed with the Senator on the Bluenose Preservation Trust, or I could get into other deals as well. I think they're probably better left for another day.

Mr. Chairman, whatever government is in place after the next election, and hopefully it's ours, of course - I think every Party hopes it's theirs - there are always going to be challenges, but I think we have taken the prudent steps as a government on balancing the budget. We did what we said we would do. We said a 10 per cent income tax reduction, and we are doing that. We're moving forward on exactly what we said we would do in 1999, and we will continue to do that. When we put our plan forward for Nova Scotians coming into the next election, when we go to the doorsteps, I feel very confident that we will be able to say that we have done the things we said we would do, and we will move on.

All the problems of Nova Scotia won't be fixed overnight, and I think all members of the Legislature realize that, Mr. Chairman. Again, I will relinquish the floor to whichever MLA has a question, from whatever Party. I believe, possibly, the member for Dartmouth East has a question or a comment. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Just to remind people, we're debating Resolutions E25 and E31.

MR. RICHARD HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I take exception to the two members opposite saying that we do not have rights in this great Chamber. I think we are all elected, and we all have the right to question any one of the ministers in the estimates, if we choose to do so. They're saying that we do not have the right to question or ask anything of the estimates of the Minister of Tourism and Culture. I take exception to that. I would like for you to make a ruling on that.

[Page 696]

[11:45 a.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: It gives me great pleasure (Interruptions)

MR. JOHN HOLM: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I want to say to the member for Yarmouth that I agree wholeheartedly with him in that you certainly do have a right and every member has a right to ask questions. That was never suggested in here, that you don't have that right. What we are pointing out is that for the very first time during the estimates - and it's just coincidental I'm sure, it wasn't something that was cooked up or planned - the members of the Tory backbenches are actually asking questions in here. It's just coincidental that those questions seem to be asked, I'm sure it's coincidence, nothing planned, to this minister with the net effect that that means that the Premier won't be able to come here.

In the previous estimates that were in here, I remember watching, here as on the other side, and seeing the government members sitting there very quietly, letting the ministers answer questions from the Opposition and not trying to fill up all the time. I think that by the end of today, the members of the Tory backbenches will have asked about four hours more questions, give or take a few minutes, during this four hours than they will have asked in the previous 36 hours.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, member. I have been dying to say this for three and a half years, that was not a point of order but it was a good point nonetheless.

MR. JOHN HOLM: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. It's not the chairman's position to comment on the point, whether they are good or bad. The chairman has the job of ruling whether something is or isn't out of order based on the reasons, on the rules, but not to, as an impartial chairman - because you put your political stripe behind you when you assume that Chair - comment on the validity of the point.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We will now move back to the Liberal caucus. (Interruptions)

The honourable member for Dartmouth East. Starting at 11:47 a.m., you have until 12:20 p.m., if you so choose.

DR. JAMES SMITH: Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to add my few comments, particularly as caucus chairman of the Liberal caucus and in support of our Liberal House Leader, the member for Cape Breton South, who spoke earlier to the committee. I have been very honoured and very pleased to have been a member of this Legislature since 1984. (Interruptions)

[Page 697]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, please. Could those in the audience please take your comments outside. (Interruptions) Whoever is in the audience who is making it difficult to hear, I would ask you to take your comments outside. We will go back to the member for Dartmouth East.

DR. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, in a slight repeat, I will just say I have enjoyed being a member of this Legislature since 1984 and have enjoyed the privileges of the House as a member. What we're talking about today is a couple of things, we're not happy with some of the answers we're getting, particularly on Health Promotion, from the minister who is defending his estimates here this morning. When I came in here yesterday and again this morning, he used his full hour on a general discussion of matters. Really, it seems like that process is just continuing, and we're not happy with that.

He can be personal if he wants to be and a bit nasty in his comments in the House, that's his prerogative. Everybody sets their standards, and there is a benchmark of behaviour in this House. That minister, like myself and all the others will be judged by where we measure up to that. But there is a style that you adopt, particularly when you're under fire and under question and sometimes maybe a little uncomfortable. We're not happy, and we're saying that here this morning, with this minister and the way this committee process is proceeding today. It's a filibuster of the minister's own estimates. That's a choice.

The British parliamentary system that we have adopted is a great system, it gives a lot of flexibility. All members have these rights. Your point of order, while it may not have been a good point, Mr. Chairman, I thought you said it very well. But there is a lot of precedent, there's a lot of protocol, there's a lot of tradition that's involved, like in the court process, within this House.

The second issue is that we would like to have the Premier, who is the First Minister of this Assembly, to come before this committee. Our past Premier, Russell MacLellan came before committee and defended his own budget and the actions of his own government. I think that's only proper. To be denied that - if a government is open and accountable and has nothing to hide, why would you hide the First Minister from the committee that is proper and legitimate? The whole process of representative and responsible government that this very building speaks of has to do with accountability.

Yes, the Legislature when it's opened is a bit uncomfortable for government sometimes, but that's what the basis of the process is all about, that you come here and you hold individual members - the front bench or whatever, particularly, but others as well - accountable for the actions of the government. When statements are being made publicly by spin doctors and public relations people, that we believe, as MLAs, are not proper, then we can hold the ministers accountable for that.

[Page 698]

That's the whole process, and that's the initiative here this morning. We're not playing games. We want to have the First Minister before us, so we can bring some of these matters that are maybe poorly understood, maybe they're a bit misrepresented and understood by the public, sometimes. Here is the place where everyone is accountable. It's recorded and becomes part of the permanent record of this Legislature.

I would particularly like to have some more information about Health Promotion, in speaking about budgets. I think I understand the process. I see there is a budget of about $15 million, $3.3 million of that is administration. So we have a Sport and Recreation budget that is melded in with the Health Promotion budget, so you have a diminishment of the Sport and Recreation. You have Health Promotion that really has promised a strategy of addressing issues such as 40 per cent of chronic illnesses in this province are preventable. It's a major task, we're interested in how the government would do that. We've been promised a list. The minister couldn't speak of this in the House the other day, there were so many, but he was going to provide a list. I am sure he has a list of some kind available, and we will see that.

We speak in terms of the athletics, I'm concerned that the Sport and Recreation budget will be diminished by being in with Health Promotion, when there's not a real commitment of government to address the particular issues there. This week we've spoken in terms of athletes who are leaving this province. Admittedly, everybody is not an elite athlete, but I have some familiarity with sports medicine and other initiatives. I have great admiration for the work that is done by the athletes in this province, and we need elite athletes funded because they are the heroes and they are the models that so many children, the youth, the boys and girls clubs and various non-profit agencies throughout the community look up to as a model.

They're not all going to be elite athletes, so we need a system, we need that spelled out, elite athletes to be trained. My son has participated in the Canada Games. He swam nationally this year at the university level. I know he can come first and second and third in this Atlantic Region, and when he goes nationally, in all fairness he does well, but he's not at that level, much like our own athletes here. I think it's nice to have a great commitment of administrative staff, and we saw them in the House here the other day. Mr. Minister, you commended them, and I think that was really well done and proper. They're hurting.

You can say, well, it's nice to have administrative staff and have them voted the best and all that, and we know they are and I hope they know they are, but the athletes are hurt by the lack of good competition in this province. If you look at Saskatchewan, the number of medals they take home, where the funding is five times, at that level, what our athletes receive, and that's just not good enough. Saskatchewan is a province with challenges like our own and the same type of population, yet we have at least twice the number of young athletes involved in athletic activities in a province like Saskatchewan that receives five times the funding we do here in Nova Scotia for sport development, and that speaks for itself. I think it's translated out.

[Page 699]

I think it's one thing to say do your best and that sort of thing. I've lived that in our own home, and I've tried to be involved in sports over the years, boxing when maybe it wasn't as popular for doctors to be involved in boxing. I still stuck with it because I believed in the program, and I really feel very strongly. I don't bring this in a political way. That's what we're here about this morning - that will end my comments - to represent our Liberal caucus as well as I can.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, first of all I would like to thank the member for his comments. I know that the member did ask me a question the other day in the House and sometimes the House gets a bit heated in the debate. I do know that the member, even in speaking to people within the Canada Games and such, and I heard about your son being involved in swimming, and I know that you are very involved in that respect. I want to commend you for that. Certainly, as a member in the House, I mean no disrespect to a member who has been here for many years and who I know was in a very challenging portfolio, in the Department of Health, a very large portfolio. I think it's important to put that on the record. Again, in the heat of debate sometimes a person will get their back up a little bit and put things on the record at times.

In thinking that the member would probably be asking me the question about athletes today, I started giving some thought to what the member was saying. I thought I would just touch upon three or four of the opportunities that are out there for athletes in a variety of ways. Just before I do, the medals that Saskatchewan received and Nova Scotia received, it's closer than one might think. In fact, I think in the last Summer Games we were actually ahead of Saskatchewan. So it's not only about money, and I know the member knows that. Certainly I do know that they make a significant investment. Through the Canada Games Management Group, we give $160,000 each year. In fact I met with the management committee on Tuesday morning to have some discussion about what their future business plans would be with respect to that.

There is an opportunity through the Olympic Trust program, and you're carded, whether you're carded as a level one or two. So there is opportunity there to receive some funding. In order to become part of the Olympic Trust, you are usually a national team athlete. So there is opportunity there. Through Sport Centre Atlantic, which the member may or may not be familiar with - perhaps he is - there is an opportunity for elite athletes. Ken Bagnell, who I'm sure the member has run across in his travels, is very involved there. There is some support and services through the Sport Centre Atlantic, technical assistance, massage, physio, and the list goes on.

[12:00 noon]

There is also an Elite Athlete Assistance program. It's designed toward an athlete who may not be carded yet. We can capture that level of athlete as well, but perhaps they're on a junior national team or moving forward to get on a national team as well. They can get

[Page 700]

assistance. I can get further information on this, should the member want. There is also the sport fund, which is through Sport Nova Scotia. It's more geared towards the amateur athlete. So there are possibilities. Then we also, of course, put money into a variety of other programs, such as the recreational facilities development program, which is there to assist athletes and their facilities, as well as a number of other initiatives.

I certainly respect the fact that the member has concerns in such areas as chronic disease. The chronic disease prevention strategy - and I agree with the member that in large part a large percentage of that 40 per cent, as the member mentioned, can be avoided, those types of problems in our society. I see the chronic disease prevention strategy - and I know the member would know Merv Ungurain, working through Dalhousie University. We're working very closely with Merv and working on the chronic disease prevention strategy.

I would dearly love to have that strategy in front of us now, today, so we could get moving on it. It won't be completed until the Fall, that strategy. It's really a comprehensive strategy with many partners involved, many subcommittees involved. I believe there are eight, I don't know if they're called subcommittees (Interruptions) There are 10 subcommittees. I have to apologize, I have staff sitting with me at the table and behind. Certainly, I see that can really be a major stepping stone for the Office of Health Promotion, to work on and also that we have to continue working with the other departments. It's not a problem that will be fixed overnight, it wasn't created overnight, but we have to continue providing opportunities to address the problem. That's the end of my comment with respect to that, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there further questions? We now move to the PC caucus, if there is anyone who wishes to ask questions.

The honourable member for Sackville-Beaver Bank.

MR. BARRY BARNET: Mr. Chairman, before I go back to my statements, I want to talk about the sideshow that we witnessed a few minutes ago. I find it reprehensible that members of this Chamber would have the audacity to come here and sit before this committee to explain to Nova Scotians and particularly the press, because they dragged them in to sit down and listen to this, that for some reason because I have a special interest in Sport and Recreation and Health Promotion and Tourism and Culture that I don't have the opportunity to ask the questions that I feel the people of Sackville, Hammonds Plains, Beaver Bank need to have answered. The member for Sackville-Cobequid doesn't feel that it's important to ask those questions, that's his right, but I do.

I don't care whether it's been the practice of this House, either this session or in previous sessions, the rules permit me the opportunity to ask the minister questions in this committee. I was elected the same way the member for Sackville-Cobequid was elected, the same way the member for Cape Breton Centre was elected, and the people I represent expect

[Page 701]

that I would represent them in the fashion that they think is in their best interests, and I will continue to do that.

I find it absolutely disgusting when we see the type of sideshow that we just witnessed, where members are parading the press and others in to listen to what's no more than government-bashing or Premier-bashing that is, in my mind, baseless simply to be a headline in the weekend news. I think that is actually anti-democratic, and frankly does nothing to help build confidence and restore the confidence the public has in their elected officials.

Frankly, I was extremely embarrassed about the sideshow that went on. I was particularly embarrassed, Mr. Minister, because it went on in front of a bunch of young people, who will now be going back to Cape Breton, back to your riding, with a sense that this is the way it works in Halifax. I want to say to you, that's not the way it ought to work even if it does.

If I can go to a couple of areas, Mr. Minister, I was talking about the whole idea of the unique opportunity of cross-connection between tourism and sport within your portfolio. I want to expand upon that if I might. There is and has been in my constituency and, I would submit, in constituencies around this province, the growing trend for Nova Scotians to get more actively involved in sport and to do it as part of their vacation, to do it as part of their visits to other areas, and as well their visit to Nova Scotia.

I can point to a number of examples where Nova Scotians, both here at home and abroad, while taking their vacation involve sport with their vacation. We see it in events like endurance races, endurance competitions. North of the community I represent, in Mount Uniacke, there is a young man who has set up an endurance competition. He brings people in from Atlantic Canada, maybe even from all across Canada and New England to compete in these endurance competitions. They often stay for a couple of weeks. The competition is only an element of what they do. A bigger portion of what they do is visit the rest of Nova Scotia. It's cycling, it's running, it's swimming, but it's also visiting and spending money in our restaurants, in our hotels and in our shops. That's one element.

Motorcycling, which is a tremendously-growing area of interest for people in my constituency, you see, almost on a daily basis, particularly on the weekends, where large groups of motorcyclists get together for rallies. These events take two to three days, often injecting, into small communities within Nova Scotia, tremendous amounts of revenue in the restaurants and the shops and the bars. I think these are the kinds of things that as a government, through your portfolios, we need to foster and support.

Mr. Chairman, soccer is another example. Soccer is the fastest-growing sport in Canada, probably even in the world. In my community, there are 2,000 people who play soccer, 2,000 young people. In the area that I represent, we're fortunate enough to have one

[Page 702]

of two soccer facilities that have synthetic surfaces. That soccer facility that we have brings to our community, on a daily basis, people from outside, hundreds and hundreds of people every single day. Those people stop and they buy items they need for that day at our local shops. It has been tremendous for our economy, tremendous for people understanding our community.

Mr. Chairman, you touched on something - and I'm going to lead to a question - that has been of interest to me, and people I know and associate with, for quite some time, and that is the collaboration or the cross-collaboration between your department and the Department of Transportation and Public Works with respect to the road network. As an avid camper, somebody who enjoys spending several weekends and a week or two in the summer at campgrounds around this province - and I will say that I have visited many of them - one of the complaints that I hear from fellow campers, more than any, is that the routes often going to and from campgrounds - and I point to Kejimkujik National Park as one example, I point to Caribou Provincial Park as another example - often need repair.

It would seem to me that it would be in the best interests of not only your department but the Department of Transportation and Public Works and the province as a whole that we identify those key routes, those ones that go to and from key tourism destinations, campgrounds, be it provincial, federal or even private, and we look at a way of structuring some sort of system of improvement so that when visitors come to Nova Scotia they don't have to worry about their mountain bike falling off the back of their motor home, and that we have in place something, some plan to alleviate that concern. Mr. Minister, my question is, what have you done, and have you spoken to the Minister of Transportation and Public Works on this matter?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister, before you answer that question, I didn't see the member for Timberlea-Prospect come in, and perhaps I went too quickly to the PC caucus. However, he has very graciously allowed us to continue, and so we will continue with the member for Sackville-Beaver Bank but I just wanted to mention that out of courtesy. Please answer.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, respecting the member's question, it's a very good question. Certainly myself and the current Minister of Transportation and Public Works, and the previous Minister of Transportation and Public Works, have had many discussions regarding the transportation system here in the province. I used an example earlier of the Eastern Shore, and what we were seeing is quite a number of complaints from motorcoach companies, quite a number of complaints from the local regional tourism associations, from tourist operators, from people within that particular area. I was very pleased when Transportation made that decision to put a five-year plan in place to address that problem.

[Page 703]

I have also had the opportunity to sit down with the previous Minister of Transportation and Public Works, as well as MPs in Cape Breton, as an example, to take a look to see what opportunities might exist for something such as the Cabot Trail. We're seeing an investment being made now in the Margaree Harbour Bridge, which is good news for that area. I know that in the area of Shelburne, as another example, there are investments being made, and throughout the province.

I think it's important, and I think the member made a very good point, deciding what roads need to be paved in our province, Transportation is - and they have been - taking our views into account, from a tourism perspective, what we see as priorities. I'm very pleased that the current minister and the previous minister were very open to listening to what we felt were priorities as well. Obviously they have other factors which come into play in determining what roads should be paved. We have to respect that as well. The fact is that they're listening and really breaking down the silo effect that you can often see in government and that you can often see outside of government. It's very important.

With respect to the opportunities for sport tourism, I also think, as someone who is very involved in sports myself, that there is an opportunity to further capture on those opportunities, whether it's with our work through the Canadian Tourism Commission, through the Product Club, we do some, and there is further work being done with Events Halifax. We see and we have seen, whether it's the World Juniors or the upcoming Women's Worlds, that we have the potential here to host major events and hosting that is world-class. We have further opportunities, whether it's the Vince Ryan Tournament in Glace Bay, there's another example of how we can capture opportunities.

Certainly, I think we have to expand upon that. Of course it boils down to sometimes how many dollars you have, because you can only stretch them so far. Motorcycles, you mentioned, a motorcycle guide has been proven to be very successful this past year, and we're going to be continuing that initiative. We specifically mentioned that in our Tourism planning for the upcoming year. It's something we're highlighting because we think there's a market there that we can really capture. The first thing we had to have, of course, was the guide, to complement our Doers and Dreamers Guide, to complement the other guides we have provincially. I thank the member for the question.

MR. BARNET: Just a couple more questions, if I can. I want to keep going down the Tourism line, and then I have a question with respect to Health Promotion. The minister will recall last summer he and I happened to meet by chance at the ferry in P.E.I. We were there for separate reasons. I noticed in the sheet that was passed around, visitors councils of the Nova Scotia Visitor Information Centres that was tabled earlier, that the Confederation and Holiday Island visits in Pictou are up 231 per cent. Is that what that is, 231 per cent?

[Page 704]

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes, there are two aspects to that. One is the Pictou numbers, the 41,000 to 43,000 and the other one is the ferry, onboard, 16,000 to 54,000. Hence the change. That's really what I was saying earlier, sometimes you can have a dramatic percentage increase although, depending on what your original number was, it can skew it a little bit.

[12:15 p.m.]

MR. BARNET: That's an amazing statistic, an amazing change, Mr. Minister. I know that you can probably account for one of those 54,567 and I can account for the other one. There's a big difference here.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: What it was was a move in location on the ferry, a simple move in location to get that percentage increase. We went from 16,000 to 54,000, which is significant. That's simply moving on the ferry. It's where I was pointing back to the change in Amherst they made a number of years ago, a beautiful visitor information centre and a beautiful location, but when it moved, we saw the opposite effect, to some degree, not as dramatic, of course, as that, but we did see a slight decrease in the number of visitors being counselled at that time. That's back a few years ago. Of course, we've changed the direction that was going in and we're seeing an increase, again, in the last couple of years. For the first couple of years, I guess it would be, there was a decrease in changing locations. Location is very strategic for visitor counselling.

MR. BARNET: With respect to the increase of visits from 2001-02, we all know that September 11^th had a major impact on tourism around the world, particularly more so in North America and more so in the United States of America. I guess my question is, considering the positive side of what happened here in Nova Scotia as a result of 9/11, the hospitality that was shown by individual homeowners and Nova Scotians who opened up their homes and their hearts to those people, do we know whether or not or have we tracked whether or not any of those people who came here by chance came back here by design?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Anecdotally we can tell you that many people did return. We don't have access to the passenger lists itself, with names, it proves difficult to track that particular statistic. To add to that, the research we have within the department is quite significant through such things as our exit survey. We are able to track extensively about visitors, about where they watched and learned about Nova Scotia, whether it's a particular ad they have watched, why they came to Nova Scotia, what events, even to the point to get a rough idea of how much they spent on their trip here in Nova Scotia. Unfortunately, in that particular case, I can't give you an accurate statistic because it's really anecdotal.

[Page 705]

MR. BARNET: It would be interesting to know, and I know that it wouldn't be wise for us to exploit that because, in fact, I think half the reason people felt so comfortable was the fact that we weren't out to try to take something from them. Frankly, I think it speaks well to Nova Scotians that they were able to make such an impact on so many people who were in such a dire situation. At the exact same time Nova Scotians were doing that to people from around the world, I was in another spot, almost halfway around the world, in the exact same situation, frankly, feeling a lot alone. Watching the newscasts of what was going on here in Nova Scotia, I was never prouder of the people in Nova Scotia than I was at that point in time in my life.

With respect to the promotional campaign that's ongoing right now, Right Here, Right Now, I know that this cross-proliferation of American media, and we see it when watching NBC, CBS, where ads kind of cross over from one area to another, I look at Virginia as being a state in the United States that seems to be spending a tremendous amount of money and putting in a tremendous effort, New Orleans as well, to promote their area as the destination place for this year. I wonder, do we analyze the campaigns of others? Have we looked at best practices that the State of Virginia and New Orleans and these places are doing to try to improve our own campaigns?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I know the member does spend a great deal of time travelling and keeping a very close eye on what is happening. We do that through the agency of record, through our best practices and also through the Tourism Partnership Council, in determining what markets we should be focused on, on where dollars should be spent. So we certainly do look at what other areas are doing. Specifically to New Orleans, as you mentioned . . .

MR. BARNET: Yes, Virginia and New Orleans are two that I noticed.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes, I would have to get some more information, exactly, about those particular areas. I can assure the member that we do watch what is happening in other areas. The agency of record plays a vital role in determining where our ads are being bought, where they're placed and such. They have a vital role to play in that as well. The Tourism Partnership Council brings a lot of experience to the table, people from across the province who have a lot of experience in marketing and different areas, including, I'm sure, the areas which the member is referring to.

MR. BARNET: My final question is to move toward your Health Promotion agenda or your Health Promotion portfolio. Yesterday at the Community Services Committee of the Legislature, we had, as a witness, Professor Sharon Batt. She is a breast cancer survivor. She currently holds the Elizabeth May Chair at Dalhousie University. She brought to the committee a number of concerns around health promotion, health prevention. A couple of things interested me, but one particular thing, and we're talking a little bit around it, is the idea of promotion in advertising.

[Page 706]

One of the issues that Professor Batt has is specifically around the issue of companies being able to advertise drugs and the negative consequences on that, on the health and the well-being of Nova Scotia. I know it's a double-edged sword. Your department is responsible for health promotion and you have to promote healthy living, and at the same time you have to be careful that the corporate entity, those people who are responsible for making a profit off of drugs, aren't out there selling these drugs and making Nova Scotians sicker in the process or providing unnecessary drugs.

My question to you, Mr. Minister, and I know it's relatively new in your mandate with respect to Health Promotion, but have we, as a province, looked at the whole issue of drugs and drug advertising, the issue of cross-border advertising? That is that advertising by osmosis that I spoke about earlier where it's coming across through American media sources, even though it's illegal in Canada to do that, we get it because it's piped through and that's part of the package. Have we looked at the issue of preventative health measures through limiting the ability for drug companies to sell their wares to Nova Scotians, either through some form or process by advertising or visits to the doctor or whatever have you?

One of the examples I said to Sharon Batt was that I had the opportunity at one time to go to the doctor, only to have a well-dressed man with a briefcase sit beside me. A few minutes later a well-dressed lady with a briefcase came down and sat on the other side. They didn't look ill, in fact they looked quite healthy. They had large briefcases. When I went in to have my appointment, in between the two of them, I discovered that both of them were drug salespeople. One of my concerns and one of her concerns is that the health of Nova Scotians may be compromised as a result of this ability for companies to get in there and push their particular prescription to whatever ails you.

My view is if we're looking at preventative health care, and that's what I think your department is supposed to do, we need to be proactive and try to prevent Nova Scotians from falling into an unnecessary trap. I want to know, Mr. Minister, have you had the opportunity in the short time you've been in this post to put your head around this and to think about this?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: That's a very good question, and I thank the member for it. You really alluded to the fact that it tends to be more of a Department of Health issue, which would be directly in line with the Pharmacare Division. What they would be working on is best practices, working with the Medical Society of Nova Scotia and making sure that best practices are followed. I guess the question could really get into other areas such as prescription drug use and the monitoring program, which is there, which is also through the Department of Health. I will certainly take the question under advisement. I think, perhaps, as we move forward through the office, and I had some brochures here as well, that we use through Public Health, as far as educational components, that education is a key to what we are doing.

[Page 707]

Certainly it's an area where we alone could not work on it, but we have to work on it with the Department of Health. What you're going to see in the Office of Health Promotion is more overlap with other departments. Everything is not in our budget, because we are working closely with Education, Community Services, and Health specifically, and of course with the district health authorities, where something might be under a district health authority budget or Public Health, that we are involved in. You may see administration which may be tied in with our office but is working with dollars that are through a DHA and involved in that respect. It's important that we're at the table when those discussions are happening. What I can assure you is that we are, and we will continue to be.

MR. BARNET: I understand that, Mr. Minister. I guess it was sort of an unfair question to you, and it probably should have been something that I asked of the Minister of Health. I guess the reason I did it is because I think it does tie in with health promotion to some extent, and I do think that there has to be some cross-collaboration between the two. I also believe that the government's focus or our focus off of simply just curing illness and on to preventing illness is the right direction. I think that for too long this idea of health care as simply providing pills, surgery and treatment, for too long that type of attitude and thought towards the health and well-being of Nova Scotians has been fostered.

I think that this shift towards healthy living, healthy and active lifestyle is the kind of shift that in the long term will prove to be extremely beneficial, not only to Nova Scotians in terms of how long they live but to Nova Scotians in terms of how much taxes they pay. At the end of the day, you can pay me now or you can pay me later, it's an old saying but it's absolutely true in my mind in this area of your portfolio. I think we really need to keep the focus on health promotion, we need to do it in a way that Nova Scotians will buy into this, that they will become more active, that they will participate more, and that they will take a greater role of responsibility for their own health. Too often, as an MLA we get calls with respect to people who have a variety of medical illness, many of which are as a result of things they did or didn't do in their own lives and could have prevented themselves.

Mr. Minister, I think it's the right direction. My hope and expectation is that it continues indefinitely, it grows and becomes contagious, not just here in Nova Scotia but right across this country. I think it's the kind of thing that will help see Canadians up there along with some of these European countries that have had for a long time the bragging rights of being some of the healthiest people in the world. I don't think there's any reason why we can't have that same thing here in Nova Scotia. I think what we've shown here is true leadership with respect to this.

I think, although you won't be able to measure it in the short term - and that short term is this year, next year or even the next couple of years - what you're going to find is the true measurement of the decision to have an Office of Health Promotion will be five, 10, 15 years down the road when you see people living longer, living a more active, healthier lifestyle. Frankly, although you may not have someone come up to you in 15 years' time

[Page 708]

saying that was a great idea, congratulations, I think you can rest assured that it will have an impact and that Nova Scotians will benefit by this in the long term. That's it for what I have to say.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate what the member is saying. I agree with the fact that it's a long term. You're not going to see the direct results of the Office of Health Promotion this year, next year, it's a long-term plan that we have to work on and continue to work on. Sure, there will be some short-term initiatives but, ultimately, it's the long-term goal to have a healthier province. I just want to put on the record that I certainly agree with the member.

[12:30 p.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: We will now move to the NDP caucus.

The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.

MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Mr. Minister, I look forward to having the opportunity to exchange a few ideas with you. I want to start with a complaint I have about Christmas. (Laughter) I love history books, you know that. I read them all the time through the boredom of the Legislature. So I go to the museum on the waterfront, and I want you to know, Thomas Raddall - I was very disappointed in the availability of books in a nautical theme, particularly when it comes to anything involving this famed author. I was looking for Christmas gifts. I said, hey, I know where to go, I will go there. Perhaps I should tell you I ended up at Chapters, but let's not get into that kind of endorsement.

Who is in charge of deciding what form of books we have available, because that museum, particularly there, is in a very attractive situation. The Nova Scotia store, I'm sure, has a lot of visitors, but the book selection is far from adequate. Maybe that's not the mandate. I just bring it up, my Christmas shopping list.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I appreciate that. Actually it's a good question. I hope next Christmas is better than this Christmas.

MR. ESTABROOKS: No, no. Mr. Minister, it's not as good as the question from Sackville-Beaver Bank's MLA, who asked the question about roads and tourism.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: That was a pretty good question, I have to agree. The DRL, right now, is going through an evaluation process with respect to the gift shop there. What there is is guidelines respecting the inventory in the gift shop. They have to fall within those guidelines of what they pick for an inventory, but we do not specifically say that that is the book you need to carry or such, but there are guidelines as far as the inventory goes.

[Page 709]

MR. ESTABROOKS: You see my point, I'm downtown, I'm thinking well, I need something, particularly of a Nova Scotia flavour, so I'm saying, that's where I'll go, patronizing that particular location that happens to be included as part of one of our most popular and highly-promoted museums. I would suggest, if I may, that I think it would be appropriate, particularly with well-known Nova Scotia authors, that we make an attempt to have them available there. That's just my own bias.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: If I might add, this year we will see more books, I can assure the member. It's certainly something that I know you as a member are concerned about, and others have brought it to our attention as well. It's certainly something that we're moving on. We have a great interest in the gift shops through all our museum system as well as our VICs.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I want to turn to a headline that you don't want to talk about. If I'm embarrassing a member of your staff, I guess I have to apologize in advance. It has nothing to do with the current problems in Toronto, but from The Daily News of April 9, 2003: The Toronto of Atlantic Canada. Now, aside from your preference of hockey teams, which we won't go into, I thoroughly have to question the fact that we are trying to promote the capital region of this province as the Toronto of Atlantic Canada. I say that - again, the reporter is Stephen Bornais, and you know how the headline is the one thing that sometimes misconceives the whole thing. I read the headline first of all: The Tourism Department uses urban image to woo others from the region here. Then of course there are the other things that are included.

I'm just concerned about the strategy. There are so many wonderful things in this province. There are so many wonderful things in this particular region, HRM being a region, I guess, as opposed to an amalgamated city. Where are we going with this one?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I thank the member for the question. I guess it's always difficult when you're referring to someone else's comments and not your own. I guess if you take a look at the overall marketing strategy - on hockey teams, first, I would have called it the Montreal of . . .

MR. ESTABROOKS: That's a rabbit track.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: But we won't get into that. We will stick with the question. Certainly in our advertising, the irony actually in that headline is our advertising really positions Nova Scotia as a seacoast destination and pushes hard on the many activities within the province, especially on nature, which I know the member has brought up on a number of occasions, whatever issue it is, especially being in the rural part of HRM, I guess that's safe to say that you're in the rural part. Halifax, we do position, within the Maritimes, as well as the nature aspects, the urban aspect of Halifax. I think that's important. You will

[Page 710]

never see, in our advertising, us calling ourselves the Toronto of Atlantic Canada or anything else of that nature. We're not the Toronto of Atlantic Canada.

We certainly have urban opportunities, which includes entertainment, nightlife and a number of other opportunities which, perhaps, we do not see in a place like Meat Cove or Mabou or Sheet Harbour. Halifax does have that opportunity of an urban-style life and opportunities for tourism. So we definitely push that, especially within the Maritimes.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I want to turn to a particular part that concerns me, because of recent events in Toronto. I know that the cruise ships are an integral part of attracting visitors to this province. I am also aware of the fact, and as members might know I have a rather personal bias in favour of how Prince Edward Island promotes itself. They do a fantastic job, especially that little girl who always said, Come Play on Our Island. I can sing Stompin' Tom to you. They have had some classics. I am married to a girl from Brackley Beach, so I have to give those endorsements.

There are just as great beaches and just as great destinations in our wonderful province. However, Pat Binns, Premier of Prince Edward Island, has been more than proactive by saying, in light of the recent SARS scare - and I guess it's more than a scare - that Prince Edward Island is a safe place to come, Prince Edward Island is a destination that continues to welcome people from across the country and across the world. He's out there in front of it again. The Premier of Prince Edward Island - at one time, I know the Premier at the time, Angus MacLean, of course, used to be the Tourism Minister and the Premier because it's such an important Cabinet position.

Surely we must have a concern. In particular, we're not in the business of rumours here, but are the cruise ship numbers going to plummet unless you and Dr. Hamm get out there and say some of the things that Binns is currently saying?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I would not go so far as to say that the cruise ship numbers are going to plummet. Would the cruise ship industry have some concerns? I would say yes. Off the top of my head - and I would have to get actual numbers - I do not know of any cancellations from the cruise ships which were planning on coming here, or any changes with respect to that have been as far as a cruise ship that was planning to come to Nova Scotia has changed its plans. As with anybody in the travel industry, there is concern about SARS.

I can give you an example, just two and a half, three weeks ago, we attended the Toronto Travel and Leisure Show and had the largest presence at that show. There were over 100 tourism operators and such from across the province. The message there, and what it ended up being when I mentioned this earlier today was that it ended up being the Nova Scotia Travel and Leisure Show because we had the largest presence there, I think it's safe

[Page 711]

to say. We were promoting Nova Scotia there as a safe place to visit, as a welcoming province, and all the rest of the messages that we continue to promote.

I can tell you that this weekend, on Sunday, I am going to be joining a conference call with the Minister of Industry, I do not know what the conversation will be about yet, as it hasn't happened, but I will be quite interested to hear the national perspective as well on SARS. I know that our Minister of Health is obviously working very diligently with not only our own department but across the country on that particular issue. We're very fortunate right now, and it's certainly something we're watching very closely. Right now, in the Toronto area, they're being hit pretty hard with what's happening there at present. Right now, we're very fortunate in Nova Scotia not to have that particular problem, but it's certainly something that we are aware of.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I heard your comments earlier about the Toronto trade show, and I'm glad we were as well received as we were. I think it's important that I get this clearly stated, as the minister of this important department, attracting visitors to this province, do you plan to contact or have a member of your staff contact the cruise line operators to say, look, we're open for business here? The perception is - and I always point to the fact, again, whether it's the packaging of golf, and we do that, I know - Prince Edward Island, Pat Binns is out there and he's promoting the fact - let's face it, Toronto is a destination, whether it's major league baseball teams or whether it's my junior high school trip that goes to Quebec City for three days and Toronto for three days, there are going to be some tough decisions made.

Do you plan or do you plan to have a member of your staff to be in contact with the cruise ship people to say to them, everything is great, we're doing fine with the situation, and reassure them that Nova Scotia is a safe destination?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I probably should have been more clear. We have had staff in contact, and we do deal with such organizations as the Atlantic Canada Cruise Association, among many others. I can assure the member that there is constant contact. As I mentioned before, in fact I was reading a headline today, perhaps it was in The Daily News, and I noticed comments by Judith Cabrita from TIANS, from Scott MacAulay from the Baddeck area, talking about how things looked fairly positive for the upcoming year and that we haven't seen any major shifts downward and, in fact, various areas of the province are feeling very positive. With any year, you always have certain areas of the province that seem to do better for one reason or another, and others which either see an increase or a decline the next year.

Things look fairly positive for this year, albeit, of course, we're watching what's happening in Toronto. I feel that Health is taking the necessary precautions that we need to take. I will be quite interested to see what the federal Minister of Industry has to say in our conversation on Sunday with all the Tourism Ministers.

[Page 712]

MR. ESTABROOKS: This is going to be a conference call?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes. It may be just an information point or the minister may feel - I haven't gotten any other details other than there's going to be a conference call. It may be just simply to touch base about what is happening in Toronto, and what the national position is on that. Again, I don't have the details because none have been forwarded.

[12:45 p.m.]

MR. ESTABROOKS: I've never really had the opportunity to meet Mel Lastman, but the time could come in the future, aside from calling snowplows in from the Army to take care of Toronto. I hope you make the case very clearly to the federal minister that there has been a lack of leadership on this issue, on the SARS issue. Let's get away from that.

I want to get back to cruise ships. It's not that I keep a file on headlines, but I have another one. March 19^th of this year, in an article by Peter McLaughlin of The Daily News: Cruise ships make bad guests, says a study. In terms of some of the other types of things, this is actually a picture of the Holland America Line cruise ship which was in the Halifax Harbour last summer. This sort of report, and I know the journalist, of course, as we know, is doing a credible job covering these particular types of stories, but in return I was expecting - and maybe I missed it - a response from the Tourism Department. Was there any response? It's a headline that jumps out at me. This is an important part of the promotion of tourism in this province, and of course more and more of our visitors, particularly those from other parts of the world, are coming to our shores by cruise ships. Have you seen this study? What do you think of it? Can I have a comment about it?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: On that particular issue, and I know the member understands that there are so many articles on tourism not only in our provincial papers but in every paper that, specifically, a written response to every article is not going to happen, obviously. In this particular case it was directed through our department to the Port Authority. Although, of course, it's a topic which would fit, I believe, more within the Port Authority's purview, and perhaps out of my ministerial responsibility through the department with respect to that particular report. Obviously we're focused on the marketing, we're focused on getting cruise ships here. Not saying that the report is not important, but I would say it does fall into the realm of another ministerial department.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I don't expect you to read every piece of paper that crosses your desk. You haven't seen the study?

[Page 713]

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I'm trying to recall if I had a briefing note on that study. No, I have not read the report so I can't comment on what the report says. I do recall the article that you're talking about. I remember reading the article. Again, when the question came forward to our department, it was referred to the Port Authority.

MR. ESTABROOKS: If I may, I want to turn to the topic of small museums. I have a piece of correspondence. You should know that small museums, in my opinion, are the gems of this province. I can say, aside from the bookstore that I mentioned earlier, that the only time I go to the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic is when I have a student tour, the only time I have been in the Museum of Natural History is when I have students with me, but put me into some of the small museums around this province, the small museums that have a real local flavour - and I could mention them at length.

The one that I would like to report on is the Hantsport and Area Historical Society. The secretary of the society has written to me. I just want to quote, if I may, and if it's necessary to table items in here, Mr. Chairman, I shall. She writes: We are especially concerned about there being less funding for hiring students for summer work in our museums. Our historical sights and museums cannot operate during the tourism season without these grants. Young people depend on these summer jobs to help keep them in university. We would strongly urge the government to reconsider this matter of funding.

I heard from a number of small museum operators on this topic. What do you suggest my response should be to someone such as the secretary from the Hantsport and Area Historical Society?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I believe the member is referring to the West Hants Historical Society - is it West Hants? (Interruptions) Hantsport and Area Historical Society. I'm sure the person is referring to the West Hants Historical Society.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Post Office Box 525 . . .

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: There's no museum under the Hants Historical, it must be West Hants Historical.

MR. ESTABROOKS: The specific example I am quoting from the letter points out that if small museums are going to continue to be promoted and to be important destinations in this province, their assurances of funding, particularly for summer employment for students, has to be maintained. I think it's a concern that we in this province should pay very close attention to.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Actually I totally agree with the member. I think that investment in community museums is extremely important. I'm just getting the number here on what we spent last year on the community museums. I'm just getting a couple of

[Page 714]

numbers there for the member. I will go back to the West Hants Historical, if that's the museum - it may not be the right one, but if it is - in 2001-02 the West Hants Historical received $10,584. Last year they received $10,600, virtually the same, a slight increase. Right now they're going through the process, which all those in the Community Museum Assistance Program go through to determine what they would get this year. This should be at the same level, it should be but they're still going through that process.

The total budget for community museums is the same as last year, through the Community Museum Assistance Program. Plus, we also have the SDI program. A couple of years ago we initiated that program, which is geared to increasing the opportunities for museums. So there's also that program which was only available in the last couple of years.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I know that we can bring up examples. The total budget is the same, that's good to hear, as in previous years. I can point to the Admiral Digby Museum that, according to my figures, received a grant of $12,800 this year, but previously, in the year prior, they received $8,500. They received additional funding. I'm talking from the Supplement to the Public Accounts, Province of Nova Scotia, fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, Page 147. I see that some museums go up from one year to the other, others go down. There's no use going through each and every one. There's the Jost House Museum that in the previous year had a $13,000 grant, and this year they have a $12,700 grant.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: If I can comment, what might be happening, for example with the Admiral Digby, the number I have in front of me - I will check the accurate number just for sure - last year through the Community Museum Assistance Program, the Admiral Digby received $8,300, and then the year before they received $8,300. The difference last year is that they also received funding under the other program, the Strategic Development Initiative program. We opened that program not only up to community museums but also heritage organizations. Simply, they got the same amount under the CMAP, but they also moved forward on a new initiative - I don't recall offhand what that one was - under the SDI program.

MR. ESTABROOKS: And I don't want to get into specific examples, that's not the issue here. The issue is, and I want to make it clear, that we continue to attract people to this province because of certain unique features that we have. One of the most unique in my view is that these local small museums in various areas are places of destination. I can tell you specifically of a family that is going to be visiting Nova Scotia this summer, and that's one of their destinations. They want to - if I can use the expression - poke around some of the areas in the province that they have a special affiliation for, whether it's the Firefighters Museum or one of the sports museums. The one I'm thinking most of as a great stop-off is the one in Tatamagouche. These are the ones that I'm going to say, go see this one, go see that one. This group of people is coming here for two weeks, and they are going to tour the local museums. That's what I consider the sort of repeat visitor that we will have in this province.

[Page 715]

While I'm in this book, if I may, Mr. Minister, I have to ask a couple of questions that I know the Education Minister always gets upset with, and maybe, for one reason or another, members opposite get upset with, but if I see a question, I'm going to ask it. Are there any taboos in this province? I'm not asking the MLA for Preston that. On Page 149 of this line item book, which makes a lot more sense to me - I don't operate in millions, I operate in thousands - Gogo Worldwide Vacations, $20,146. Live out my dreams, what is this?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The Gogo Worldwide Vacations, $20,146.16. This is a tour-operated partnership program, we deal directly with them from the United States, bringing visitors here to Nova Scotia. It just happens to be the name. I'm sure it's something like the name of our song, Jesus Jones, and the fact that raised some attention. Gogo Worldwide Vacations would probably raise a few more eyebrows. I'm sure that would be a good one for a resolution though.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I'm disappointed. (Laughter)

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: You were hoping for something much more interesting.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Then, if I may, I go - they're here, I hope the members opposite don't think, typically NDP, I'm filling time, they're on my question list, I have been given the opportunity to speak to the minister for one reason or another, finally, and I want to know - on that same page, any company that has inc. in it but also has an exclamation mark, I'm interested. If you go further up, Edufun! Inc., $18,586.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: You're still on Page 146.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I'm on Page 149.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Sorry to disappoint the member, it's not as exciting as he might think. It's inventory for gift shops.

MR. ESTABROOKS: That's it?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Edufun! Inc.

MR. ESTABROOKS: With the exclamation mark?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: You thought perhaps - I don't want to know what the member was thinking that expenditure was. (Laughter)

[Page 716]

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you for your answers, I understand the specifics of the questions. There is a major line item that is in the book, Page 148, the World Junior Hockey Championships, of $350,000. Now that's a fair chunk of change, so I'm interested. If you could - and it was a tremendously successful event, et cetera - is there any kind of accountability for what that money was used for? Do they report back to you, to your department? Are there any strings attached to a major grant such as that?

[1:00 p.m.]

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I can assure the member that there are strings attached. In order to see that level of investment from us, we had to see a number of different things, including, and I mentioned, actually, earlier, if you were watching the World Juniors and you happened to see the clock, you would have seen our Web site there, if you looked down at the ice, you would have seen the Nova Scotia logo on the ice, you would have seen various sponsor-type initiatives tied into that. I can give the member a list of examples, if he should so wish. I don't know offhand, but the level of activity on our Web site dramatically increased during that time.

MR. ESTABROOKS: The number of hits, you said?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes, for sure. That was a real opportunity for us, provincially, to showcase the province in Halifax. Well worth the investment, because the television coverage itself and I believe the experience that people from not only across our own country but worldwide will mean many more visitors here this year and in future years. It also showed that we can host an event of that calibre, which speaks to the opportunities to host additional events in the future.

MR. ESTABROOKS: On the topic of athletics, I want to turn to Page 150, where I see Team Canada received money from us. What Team Canada are we talking about this time?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: What page, sir?

MR. ESTABROOKS: Page 150. It's a minor amount - well, nothing is minor - $6,800. I'm just interested in what Team Canada this is.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The Team Canada that you're referring to is not the hockey team, unfortunately, maybe you were thinking it was the hockey team. (Interruptions) It has to do with the trade mission to Berlin, Munich. The deputy was there, and obviously the Premier with the Team Canada mission was there, February 2002. Part of it was a membership for the department.

MR. ESTABROOKS: As you check that, perhaps . . .

[Page 717]

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: These are costs associated to being involved in the Team Canada mission to Germany.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I'm interested in the destination in this case. I understand that we're promoting various places. I'm going to get there eventually, and I will talk about a certain, particular country that continues to buy up our coastline, but we are promoting, in Germany, Nova Scotia as a tourism destination. We're doing that directly. We do that by attending trade shows. I attended one of your press conferences on this topic. What other means are we in contact with the German public about promoting Nova Scotia?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Specifically through European tour operators. In fact I will give you an example. One of the individuals who was on that particular trip with the deputy was Anna Freiss, she's with CANADVAC. She has played a very important role for us in that particular market. We see real opportunities there. We're very fortunate. One of the discussions they were having there, as an example, one of the biggest challenges, actually, is not even specifically getting the advertising there, it's getting the flights we need in from those markets. This year Lufthansa will have a direct flight into Halifax, which was announced last year at the Tourism Ministry conference in the Fall.

That is what our biggest challenge is, getting the visitor here from Europe. We did make an additional commitment in the $1 million, if I remember the number offhand it was $250,000 specifically for the European market. Very often we don't just market Nova Scotia, we also focus on Atlantic Canada. We do that in partnership with the Atlantic Canada Tourism Partnership Council. As much as we would like to think that everybody in Europe would know Nova Scotia, they may have a much better idea where Canada is and perhaps Atlantic Canada.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I want to pursue this so it's clear. The targeted country is Germany, predominantly. You said about the European market, I'm interested in why, perhaps, the targeted market isn't Italy, for example, the targeted market isn't France, the targeted market isn't Great Britain. I am concerned at times about the promotion of the province and the resulting loss of coastal properties, another topic. I know it's a hobby horse that some people are tired of hearing about. Let me tell you, it's a problem that ain't going away. I am interested in how it was decided that Germany - please don't consider this, in any way, a condemnation of development and various other things that we can hear in coastal communities - would be targeted as the primary market in the European market for a tourist destination such as Nova Scotia.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Two of the reasons why the U.K. and Germany will be directly targeted is because of the direct flights. That's one reason. The second reason is that because that particular market is very attracted to what we have to offer in Nova Scotia with respect to the nature aspect of the province and the product that we have to offer. I guess there's two reasons. It boils down, as well, to the dollars that we have and where we can best

[Page 718]

spend them. The decision on that is not simply a ministerial one but one which comes through the Tourism Partnership Council in planning our marketing for the upcoming year. With the dollars that we have, the decision was made and has been traditionally made to go into the U.K. and Germany.

Should we have additional dollars, we would obviously go into other markets, but with the dollars that we have it's best felt to go into those markets because of those two specific reasons: the direct flights, as well as the nature aspect and that European travel being attracted here to the province for that particular product.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We only have three minutes left. I don't know if the honourable member has another question. I don't know how long you want to finish, Mr. Minister. Do you have anything more to ask?

MR. ESTABROOKS: Now that I was finally allowed to ask a few questions, I just want to make, if I can - Mr. Minister, personally, professionally, it's a very important department. It's a department we all sort of take for granted, Tourism. We all take if for granted. Build it and they will came, and all those other sorts of analogies, but there are so many small operators outside of the HRM, the B & Bs and all the wonderful destinations around this province, and your staff has a tremendous responsibility with limited numbers of people on your staff, a taken-for-granted sort of department, that this department will just continue to do their thing.

I think it's a major concern that your department has a very important role to fill in this province, particularly outside of Halifax, particularly in seasonal destinations and all those things. The staff that I've worked with in your department have been nothing more than professional, they have been extremely attentive to details, in getting back to me, and I want you to pass that on to them. I know that at times your staff is stretched, meeting a lot of different demands and going a lot of different ways, as you too are as a minister.

I am going to use up my time by not going any further but by saying that particularly - and I say this with a real nasty attitude - people don't come to Nova Scotia to go to casinos. In my opinion, the people that I know, they want to go to the Liverpools, they want to go to some of the other destinations. They want to go to Lower Prospect. They certainly want to go to Mabou. Those are the destinations that keep and make us different from other destinations. It's important that we continue (Interruptions)

I say that, and I hope your staff continues - aside from the capital region, let's not go back to that headline, that's unfair. It's really crucial that we continue to promote the things that make us unique as a province. The small museums, the out-of-the-way destinations, I know that could be taken the wrong way, I want it to be said the correct way, that's the direction that I want the department to continue to go in.

[Page 719]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. The time for debate has finished.

The honourable Minister of Tourism to close the debate.

HON. RODNEY MACDONALD: I would like to make a comment. I would like to thank the member for the questions, and all members from all Parties for the questions today. I certainly want to acknowledge my staff from the Department of Tourism and Culture, as well as the Office of Health Promotion and thank them for being with us through the budget estimates, and of course you, Mr. Chairman. I certainly want to agree with the member for Timberlea-Prospect that we're very fortunate to have the staff that we do in both the Office of Health Promotion and the Department of Tourism and Culture. I can assure the member that we will continue to market and promote the province, from one end of this province to the other, focusing on every region of this province.

Mr. Chairman, with that said, I move the resolutions for my departments.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E31 stand?

Resolution E31 is stood.

Resolution E25 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $14,910,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Office of Health Promotion, pursuant to the Estimate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E25 stand?

Resolution E25 is stood.

I just want to inform the committee that estimate information that was promised by Minister Peter Christie, Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, has been tabled, and the Opposition members have been given copies of it.

According to the Rules and Forms of Procedure, since we have come to the end of 40 hours of debate in the Red Room, under Section 62FD, I need to put the following question to you.

Shall all remaining resolutions stand?

The resolutions are stood.

We are now adjourned.

[1:13 p.m. The subcommittee rose.]