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HALIFAX, THURSDAY, APRIL 25, 2002
SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY
1:49 P.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. David Hendsbee
MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to call the Subcommittee on Supply to order. At the conclusion of last day, we had the Minister of the Department of Transportation and Public Works, and at the time of adjournment we had questions from the Liberal caucus. Your time continues now.
The honourable member for Cape Breton West.
MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Mr. Minister, perhaps you want to finish answering the question I had asked; you were commenting about the concrete asphalt.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Public Works.
HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Yes, I was. It is our intention, first of all, to do a section of Highway No. 101 with concrete. I can't tell you offhand how long that section is going to be, but it's going to be a section long enough to serve as a demonstration of how well concrete holds up.
Mr. Chairman, I think it's important that people remember what happened with the Cobequid Pass, where we did a section there under the previous government. We've had some experience with that pavement for about six or seven years, and it has stood up remarkably well. Although the costs associated with concrete are slightly more - in fact about 10 per cent more - on average than asphalt, the road has certainly stood up a lot better with regard to ongoing maintenance. In other words, it's fairly evident, I think, that the ongoing maintenance for concrete is much less than for asphalt. That is one of the reasons why we're going to do another section on Highway No. 101.
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The section that was done on the Cobequid Pass was done as a demonstration project by the cement industry in truth, so there was a tremendous amount of attention paid by the cement industry when that particular section was laid. Quite often, those who are engaged in asphalt paving will tell us, well, you won't always get a job like that simply because of the fact that the cement industry made absolutely sure that the concrete was placed perfectly, it was finished perfectly, et cetera. There could be some truth in that, however, by doing this other project on Highway No. 101, we will have two projects, and the second one will probably be done by a local contractor and it will be done as would be normal for the laying of concrete pavement.
In Ontario and Quebec, as I'm sure you're all aware, they have large stretches of concrete roads, and the concrete paving that has been done of recent date is far superior to that that was done when they first commenced with laying concrete. In fact, there's a section of Highway No. 401 that's entirely concrete, and it's just stood up. It goes back to - God, when I was living in Toronto - 1957, when they started laying concrete on Highway No. 401, and it gradually got wider and wider as the number of lanes increased. I think it's a good investment.
MR. MACKINNON: Just a couple of small housekeeping items before I turn it over to my colleague, the member for Lunenburg West. You made reference to the cost sharing between the municipalities and the province on some of these J-Class roads for paving, the 50/50 arrangement so to speak. There is one in my constituency, referred to as the Oakfield Drive. I do understand it's supposed to be a high priority with the municipality. I do realize dollars are very limited. I'm just flagging it so that if it comes there and all things remain equal, it's one that I think the citizenry, myself and the municipality have pretty well identified as something that has been on the books for 15 years, even under our administration we just didn't get to do it when we could have.
MR. RUSSELL: We will be putting a letter out to the municipalities very soon - in fact, I think the letter may be going out tomorrow - advising them of the fact that we are placing $1 million this year into a 50/50 cost-shared program for J-Class roads, and asking the municipalities to submit roads in their various counties that would qualify under the program and their order of priority for paving those roads. We will then make a decision as to how we divide that $1 million, in other words parcel it out, to the various counties for implementation of the program.
MR. MACKINNON: I think it's a point I raised the other day, if you broke it down percentagewise, CBRM would only get anywhere from $200,000 to $250,000 out of the $1 million, if you're going populationwise, statistically. They have about $800,000 in their allocation for that this year, the municipality, so obviously they have a lot more than the province is prepared to put in at this juncture.
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MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, I made that statement the other day, that's true, I'm not sure though whether or not the funding will be allocated based on the number of kilometres of J-Class roads in communities or based on population or what the basis will be. Certainly we will have to make that decision in the very near future.
MR. MACKINNON: I completely understand, it's just that I thought I would flag it because it's one that's been in the hopper for 15 years, and the residents have been quite patient. It's one that seems to be generating considerable support right across the spectrum. I know it's difficult when you're not familiar with every nook and cranny, every road in the province, but this is one that, certainly, I will flag with you and I will leave it at that. I would like to pass it over to my colleague.
MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, I know that this subject is of great importance to municipal units because, as we're all aware, new subdivisions are paved. When you buy a lot in a new subdivision, there's a paved road in front of your house. That is the way it should be. The difficulty is that people who built their homes in subdivisions before this particular piece of legislation came into place are sitting with a gravel road in front of their property, and in most municipalities the answer is well, if you want to pave it, then you will have to pay a frontage charge and everybody pays.
They say, well, that's unfair because new subdivisions are done by the developer. What they choose to forget, of course, is that when they buy a lot in a new subdivision, part of the cost that they're paying for their lot is what the developer has paid to purchase the property as well as to pave the road and to put in the services.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Lunenburg West.
MR. DONALD DOWNE: Mr. Minister, it is my pleasure to have an opportunity to ask some questions with regard to Lunenburg West. The first question is with regard to Highway No. 103. We talked about the twinning of Highway No. 103. Actually I had the pleasure to announce the twinning of part of Highway No. 103, from Halifax down to - the plan was - Timberlea-Prospect. At that time there was in excess of 13,000 vehicles per day. The accident rate per 100 vehicles was one of the highest in the province. We started the twinning process and the second phase was from where it was finished twinning - I think it's by Hubbards - and it was to go down to Timberlea-Prospect. Can you inform us, on the second phase of the twinning of Highway No. 103, is there any update on that?
[2:00 p.m.]
MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, that's a very good question, because there is no doubt that there is considerable interest in the communities along the South Shore in continuing with the Highway No. 103 project. The difficulty that we face, and it is a real difficulty, is the fact that Highway No. 103 is not part of the National Highway System - and
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I'm speaking to the converted because I know that honourable member is well aware of the situation - and if it's not part of the National Highway System, there's no federal funding. There hasn't been a heck of a lot of federal funding anyway. In truth, the federal injection of funding for the National Highway System has been very small over the past several years. If we do get to start any work on Highway No. 103, it's going to have to be on the understanding that the provincial government is going to pick up 100 per cent of the cost.
I see the member for Timberlea-Prospect is here, and there is no doubt that Highway No. 103 affects him as well because there is a lot of traffic coming up, particular from the ferry, the South Shore route rather than coming up through the Valley. I could say that it's understandable because it's very pleasant to come along the Atlantic Ocean rather than going through the Valley, but the Valley road is, let's face it, a little shorter, and as part of the National Highway System it is being twinned.
MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, I still don't know if you've answered the question. The answer, as I take it, is that work on Highway No. 103, even though there have been more deaths per capita than Highway No. 101, and we know the importance of Highway No. 101, politically as well as socially and safety-wise, there have been more deaths per capita on Highway No. 103 than on Highway No. 101. I believe you can prove those stats yourself, on a per capita basis. Even though without federal funding, I understand the dilemma there, my concern is that there needs to be a focus on Highway No. 103 because people are dying.
I'm not disputing Highway No. 101 and I'm not disputing that Transportation should have a lot more money, I'm not arguing that, but the reality is there has to be a balance of highway work throughout all of Nova Scotia and not just in one area. Statistically speaking, there are more deaths per capita on Highway No. 103 than on Highway No. 101. Safety has to be your key focus, as I believe it is. There's more than one road in Nova Scotia that has some problems. I want to ask a question in regard to paving, specifically in Lunenburg West. Can you tell me the amount of dollars for repaving for the year 1999-2000?
MR. RUSSELL: I think we can probably get you that number. I don't have it at my fingertips. May I introduce my deputy minister who has just returned from the wilds of Ottawa, trying to get federal funding as a matter of fact. We welcome him back, but he didn't bring back a sackful of money. On my left is Greg Penny, who was here before. The rest of the staff is back there.
MR. DOWNE: I understood the trip to Ottawa wasn't all that bad a trip to Ottawa.
MR. RUSSELL: Anyway, coming back to the question.
MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, I understand that the trip to Ottawa was a good trip to Ottawa, and that there is some federal funding in Ottawa. Is that accurate?
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MR. RUSSELL: You can't ask him questions, you can ask me questions.
MR. DOWNE: I wasn't asking him, I was just looking at him. (Laughter)
MR. RUSSELL: I don't know. I haven't spoken to him at any great length since he got back, and if he brought a bag of money back he hasn't told me as yet. Getting back to your problem with Highway No. 103 and the fact that there are more casualties on Highway No. 103, I've had that figure presented to me before, however I'm not too sure it's correct.
MR. DOWNE: Per capita, Mr. Minister.
MR. RUSSELL: Per capita, well, okay. When you talk about Highway No. 103, you're talking all the way from Yarmouth to Halifax; and on Highway No. 101, you're talking from Yarmouth to Halifax?
MR. DOWNE: We're comparing Highway No. 103 from one end of Highway No. 103 to the other. Highway No. 103 is Highway No. 103, and Highway No. 101 is Highway No. 101. I'm just saying that the statistics I've been given were based on per capita. I understand the answer to that question is that it's in the horizon, you're looking at it, but there are no guarantees when Highway No. 103 will be done. That's basically what you said.
MR. RUSSELL: That's what I'm saying. As I say, Highway No. 103 has a very high priority.
MR. DOWNE: Now I know why hockey was originated in Windsor, because that's where you learned to rag the puck. Mr. Minister, my second question here, if I can. The actual new paving, repaving from 1999 to 2002, has there been any in Lunenburg West?
MR. RUSSELL: I don't have the number with me, as to how many kilometres we have paved in Lunenburg West. Well, you're saying zero, I don't know. I have the figures for Hants West back in the 1990s. (Laughter)
MR. DOWNE: We're talking about Lunenburg West, Mr. Minister. I understand there has been no new paving, repaving but there has been some RIM work. Would you undertake to provide me with the breakout of the dollars spent on the RIM program from 1999-2000, 2000-01 and 2001-02 in the riding of Lunenburg, the riding of Lunenburg West, the riding of Chester-St. Margaret's . . .
MR. RUSSELL: Just a second . . .
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MR. DOWNE: The three Lunenburg County ridings and the Queens County riding, those four ridings. I would like to know the dollars spent for RIM in each one of those four respective ridings per year, as long as the RIM program has been in. Would you undertake to provide that?
MR. RUSSELL: Yes, we can and we will.
MR. DOWNE: Will that be this year or this month or . . .
MR. RUSSELL: I'm told as soon as we can make it available.
MR. DOWNE: That's fine; that's fair. I trust that. That's great. Mr. Minister, the truck registration has gone up 40 per cent for truckers.
MR. RUSSELL: Yes.
MR. DOWNE: It's a huge problem for many small family-run operations. I understand that that 40 per cent is causing some of them financial hardship to the extent where they're questioning whether or not they're going to be able to survive in the trucking business as we know it. There was a question posed to me about the possibility that the registration - when you register we used to be able to do the registration on a quarterly basis, has that been changed?
MR. RUSSELL: No. They can still register on a quarterly basis. If I may just expand on that a little, Mr. Chairman, the rates in Nova Scotia have been historically low, and I don't know if the member is aware of that. In fact, with the 40 per cent increase that we're placing on trucks, we're just almost coming up to what the New Brunswick rates are presently. In fact, as I say, compared to our neighbours to the west, our rates have been about 40 per cent less, and this simply puts us on a closer comparison. Our trucking rates that we pay in the Department of Transportation in Nova Scotia have been traditionally higher than they've been in New Brunswick. All in all, the trucking industry hasn't done too badly.
MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, you're telling me the trucking business has not been too bad, but a tremendous number of people might want to argue with you on that. The Truckers Association of Nova Scotia, the Lunenburg County-South Shore truckers association, the provincial truckers association, certainly the ones in the South Shore have indicated to me that that 40 per cent increase is a huge problem for them. Do you see the truckers association continuing with work as it was in the past, being contracted to the job site as they were in the past, for paving projects?
MR. RUSSELL: Are you referring to the 80/20 arrangement?
MR. DOWNE: Yes.
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MR. RUSSELL: If I may answer the first part of your remarks, I understand the angst that the trucking industry has. Certainly truckers in my area, the small trucking operators, are quite upset with the increase. Perhaps I can understand that too, however, in the interests of the economy I think it's necessary for us to increase the registration costs. They can pay on a three-month basis, as you said, that hasn't changed. I know that the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations is taking a look at that rate, and I don't say it's going to change but they are taking a look at the impact of that rate on the trucking industry. The 80/20 rule remains in effect but is not applicable to RIM. It's still applicable on the large capital contracts.
MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, can you tell me - by now you have your priority lists coming into the department for roadwork - is there any repaving or new paving scheduled in Lunenburg West for this year?
MR. RUSSELL: My deputy doesn't have that list with him, unfortunately. However, I will also get that information to the honourable member. I think it's important to realize that we're just now finishing the budget. In our capital budget this year we have about $34 million, $35 million additional to last year. As a result of that additional funding and because of the fact that we have lost a lot of our engineering staff in the department over the past couple of years or so, we are a little stretched at the moment to come up with the necessary estimations on various jobs and the actual completion of tender documents. We are running a little late this year compared, perhaps, to where we will be next year with the same type of money being available.
MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, I have tabled with you a number of roads as priorities and concerns in my riding - I only have a few seconds left - and I will again reinforce to you that there are some very serious road conditions in our riding. We have trucks that can't even drive on the roads unless they drive on the opposite side, which is illegal. It's causing a very serious concern in our area. I realize your problem, I understand the province, but I would ask, Mr. Minister, that you would not penalize the good people of Lunenburg West because they picked a former chicken farmer as their MLA, that in fact the roads are in need in that area, and I ask you to give fair consideration to that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. We have reached our 40 hours and I will call for the resolutions that are before us.
Shall Resolution E33 stand?
Resolution E33 is stood.
Resolution E29 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $1,400,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Sydney Tar Ponds Agency, pursuant to the Estimate.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall all remaining resolutions stand?
The resolutions are stood.
It is now time to report back to the House, we have concluded our business. Thank you very much.
The honourable Minister of Transportation and Public Works.
HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, committee, I would like to thank you for a very thorough examination of the estimates of the Department of Transportation and Public Works. Now that we have our appropriations approved, we can get on with the business of paving the roads of Nova Scotia.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We stand adjourned.
[2:15 p.m. The subcommittee rose.]
