[Due to technical difficulties, opening remarks were not recorded.]
HON. ERNEST FAGE: All those common practices of silviculture and protected areas need to come into the fore and focus quickly and certainly that is in the department's response and the government's response with the Buyer Registry, with sustainable practices, and the establishment of a sustainable fund. It is a bit like looking at Bob Cratchit and A Christmas Carol. It is the what if. The important thing is you take action to prevent it, that that could be a possible outcome, and that is what we are doing.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: Well, far be it for me to say bah-humbug, but the information that I am going on is information that is provided by your department - and someone could tell me - and the only number that I threw in here that is not yours is that I picked a number for harvesting level of 30 cord to the acre as an average. So, anybody in your department could say that I am out to lunch on that, but as far as the size of the forests that we are able to cut timber on right now, according to your document, is 2.6 million hectares which is about 5 million acres, and we are cutting in the range, at least from 1996 to 2000 - that is what this states and I think most of this was tabulated around 1998 - in the area of 6 million metres cubed which is about 3 million cords a year.
So if we consider 3 million cords a year and 30 cords to the acre, according to my calculations, it would take us 15 years to harvest the 5 million acres that we are talking about and the one assumption I made is that, other than the 30 cord to the acre, none of this 5 million acres has been harvested. If we assume that what we consider to be the operable forest with everything taken out for parks, federal lands, et cetera, the areas that you can't harvest, then you and I will both know that part of that operable forest has already been cut.
It was my understanding that this study was done so we could determine how much our wood supply was because it says the Wood Supply Forecast for Nova Scotia, 1996-2070, and if you are going to try to allocate dollars and develop a sustainability fund to ensure the longevity of the industry, then you must have some notion of how long the forest is going to last if you don't do that. So I guess that is what I am coming to; I am saying taking your numbers of that number of acres, that can only last 15 years if you don't put any money into silviculture programs.
MR. FAGE: I think the other thing one has to be careful of, in your assumption you are assuming no natural growth in those years you have calculated as your 15, no silviculture. If you look at the document, it will show you what the effect of silviculture and growth will have on those out years.
All I am saying is it is not as simple as taking a particular point in time, dividing what resource is calculated to be there, and then extend it out over out years. The forest is a living, growing, manageable industry and, again, that is why it is so important that when we see that harvesting on small private woodlots is occurring faster than growth is occurring, that is why silviculture, all those techniques that enhance the growth and supply of wood, has to be accomplished. That is why we, as a government, and certainly the previous government as well, have put into place sustainable forest practices - the sustainability fund, the new regulations - all surrounding that area to enhance the opportunity for that growth and the sustainability of the industry.
The numbers are not finite. They are an indication of what would happen on a given afternoon if growth did not occur in the forests for x number of years. Yes, it will be completely harvested, there is no question about that. What needs to be done and is being done is how we are going to get more sustainable growth out of the forests and, obviously, committing those funds to silviculture and the industry partners doing the same.
MR. MACDONELL: I think I agree. I am not sure if I am entirely sure of what you said about natural growth. I mean I assume that while we are sitting in here, trees are growing or they will be very shortly. So whether you do silviculture or not, there is going to be growth in trees. The question is how rapid that growth will be, depending on the things that impede their growth, and we try to use silviculture to remove as much of those hindrances to growth so we get the maximum production.
Yesterday I said from your numbers, I thought there were 15 years left and you said I don't disagree, I think you are right. So I just want to know, you know, after a good night's sleep, do you still agree with what I said?
MR. FAGE: Yes, what I am saying and what I said yesterday is your calculations and assumptions given those parameters, the math works, but those are not all the parameters is what I am saying. Natural growth does occur. Your assumptions - and I am paraphrasing a bit there - appear to me you are doing absolute math terms. There is x amount of area. There is x amount of volume. If you only consider those factors, that makes the math work, but there are a number of other factors which are natural growth, regeneration, the impact of why we are making sure silviculture is taking place, that will prevent that from happening and push that cycle of growth out there so it is sustainable.
MR. MACDONELL: Right, sure. What I am talking about is the wood supply if we don't do silviculture. You keep throwing silviculture into the argument if we do it, but what I am saying is how much is left if we don't do silviculture, and I came up with 15 years.
MR. FAGE: Yes.
MR. MACDONELL: It would seem to me that Nova Scotia is only so big and that means that there is a finite amount of space and there is a limited number of trees and the operable forest is an area in hectares that your department has identified as that area that we can harvest trees on.
Now, I am taking the harvest numbers from your department, which would be about 6 million metres cubed, which is about 3 million cords per year. Now at 3 million cords per year, and if you consider 30 cords to the acre, and divide that into your 5 million acres, what your operable forest is, then you can figure out, if we are cutting x amount every year, and there is only so much of that amount per acre, and we can figure out how many acres x amount works out to, then you can assume, well, it will take us this long to cut it all.
Now, since the basic way of harvesting in this province has been clear-cutting, then what we really have to assume is, can we clear-cut 3 million cords of wood every year to the end of time, in this province, considering that the area that we have to work on is about 5 million acres?
What I am saying is that at that level of harvest, it would take us 15 years to cut that 5 million acres. That is going on the idea that there would be no silviculture. The only thing I have heard, when we discuss silviculture, seems to be the planting of trees. There are other treatments, obviously, that are silviculture treatments, pre-commercial thinnings, et cetera. But if you are doing clear-cuts, if you don't have enough natural regeneration, then you are going to have to go in and plant. Nova Scotia quite often does have fairly good regeneration. So companies are even limited in the amount of planting they do.
MacTara came before the Resources Committee, and they stated that they had a private consultant come in, did a count on the Crown land that they had harvested, and found that the regeneration was quite good, and that they didn't have to do any planting. So as far as a major company coming in, harvesting Crown land, they were able to get away without planting any trees, as if planting trees is the only silviculture treatment that there is. That was the assumption they seemed to be making. If you are going to clear-cut, then that is all you can do. The first thing you can do after you clear-cut is either hope the trees come back or you have to plant them to make them come back.
What I am getting at here is these are your numbers, not mine. If we don't carry out silviculture, and I am not sure that even if we do carry out silviculture, that we can save Nova Scotia's forests, especially if we are clear-cutting them. Planting trees on clear-cuts doesn't mean that we are going to be able to harvest those trees in any significant period of time. If we have the operable forest in Nova Scotia cut in 15 years, how is silviculture going to provide a wood supply for this industry?
MR. FAGE: Mr. Chairman, as I outlined earlier, the study which occurred last year, that our department commissioned and I had commissioned to find out the state of woodlots in Nova Scotia, again I state clearly Crown land is in a sustainable position. Large holdings in Nova Scotia are in a sustainable position. Clearly, small private woodlots are not. The only way to ensure that there is a sustainable supply in the future is by ensuring that policy and regulation come into force, which this government has done, regarding sustainable supply, the sustainable forestry fund, and through silviculture. I would reiterate to the honourable member, as I did yesterday, that silviculture treatments go far beyond replanting in this province.
MR. MACDONELL: I know that.
MR. FAGE: As I said yesterday, we have pre-commercial thinnings, we have commercial thinnings, selection cutting, shelter wood harvest and in-fill planting after the initial phases have gone through on a cut. I also have to reiterate, clear-cutting is not the only cutting method in this province, and that regulation, as well as an Act and a regulation, dealing with zones around watercourses, wetlands, seed trees, all those things are coming into force to ensure that the forest has the opportunity to be sustainable.
A number of assumptions the honourable member has made on the figures supplied by the department, the math will work given the assumptions that the honourable member has made, but other experts make other assumptions. That is why I would agree with the member that his math works, but I certainly would not agree that there is a day out there that the trees are all harvested. We are ensuring, through our policies and working with our partners in the province on the private land, sustainability. They are, by and far, the majority, private woodlot owners in Nova Scotia, who do have rights and obligations in regard to how
they maintain their land and their forest land. We are there to work with them, to ensure that these new enacted regulations allow the opportunity for sustainable forest supply in the future.
We have done those studies. It has given us a benchmark at that particular point in time of what the supply looks like out there. Certainly, I think all Nova Scotians would agree that if actions are not taken or were not taken, that wood supply was going to be exhausted at some point. You could pick a year with any assumptions you want to come to that point, I am really not looking to debate that. What it indicates is that action has to be taken, and what has taken place out of that in the last two years, firm action has been taken to ensure that wood supply is sustainable in the future.
When one tours wood operations around the province, you look at commercial thinnings, you look at the techniques that many companies employ, it is not a clear-cut technique you are seeing, it is a technique where they do a lot of thinning, clear-cutting has taken, and the areas are not vast. In some areas, when a harvester is in there harvesting, after half a century of high-grading, the dominant species are not red or black spruce. For productivity, those original species need to be regenerated or replanted there. Sometimes that becomes the best option, not to have a forest of tamarack, white spruce, decaying fir, which would produce minimal volumes of lower-grade fibre. They move forward and establish stands of red spruce and black spruce.
Certainly, whether you go to the provincial nursery at Strathlorne or the large number of private nurseries in the province that do produce seedlings, the major amount of their efforts is spent on those higher-quality species. That, again, is the type of species that will allow sustainability out there in the future.
MR. MACDONELL: I am curious, because you mentioned different silviculture practices. I know that, I know they exist. I am familiar with a few. I would say that the major harvesting method in Nova Scotia is clear-cutting. You talk about trying to maintain good genetic stock and so on, yet you made cuts to the tree breeding centre last year didn't you? The tree breeding centre, you made cuts there last year?
MR. FAGE: What we did last year, we have our nurseries, our tree breeding centre in Debert has been put on hold. We maintain and store the stock there, but no new planting occurred there last year.
MR. MACDONELL: With you being the Minister of Natural Resources, it would seem to me that you would want to know that at the present level we are cutting, how long the forest will last. When you mentioned the small woodlot owners, they are part of this operable forest. They didn't set them aside. They didn't say we are dealing strictly with Crown land, we are dealing strictly with large industrial. They said the entire forest in Nova
Scotia for which we can cut trees involves the acreage. So small private woodlot owners are part of that acreage.
Now you can set up a scenario, which I think would be a major assumption if you said how long would the forest last if we took small private woodlots out of it if the other two are sustainable. I think that would give us a real reality check. In the real world, large mills or large industrial operations, as you say, that are sustainable, they are relying on that wood in those small private woodlots, for sure. The reason they are not sustainable is because large mills are going in and clear-cutting them. That is the reason they are not sustainable. Actually, we are overcutting in this province, there is no doubt about it. If the numbers here indicate that there is a 15 year supply only in terms of natural growth and natural regeneration and no silviculture, then that would indicate that we are definitely over cutting. We can't sustain that.
What you have done in this year already is make a reduction that the mills only have to pay into the sustainability fund to the level of 70 per cent of their wood allocation. So if supplying dollars to the sustainability fund is the important thing, I guess the first question is, why would you make that cut and not make them pay 100 per cent of their allocation and why is it in the Throne Speech that you only mention about $3 million funding for silviculture on Crown land?
MR. FAGE: Mr. Chairman, the member brings up a number of very good points. Again, I would have to reiterate, the department, in doing the inventory, took a snapshot in time because this province and the department is concerned about wood supply and we want it to be sustainable. Certainly, again, the member maybe doesn't read the facts the way they are set out. The category of Crown land, large companies hold as private, is based on ownership, not usage. So that is how you arrive at those classifications, whether they are sustainable or not. There is no question that mills in Nova Scotia would acquire some of their wood fibre from Crown landholdings, some from large holdings - and not all of those are lumber companies, they can be individuals - and acquire wood fibre from small woodlot holdings.
In the budget, the increase to $3.5 million on Crown is reflective of making sure we keep the public lands owned by all Nova Scotians in a sustainable, productive way. The $3 million committed to private land is the taxpayers' contribution to silviculture on those lands. Again, as we spoke yesterday, the move to sustainable forestry fund and the obligation of all roundwood buyers be registered and collect the $3.00 a cubic metre began a year ago with 65 per cent of the industry representing the largest buyers over approximately, I believe, 5 million board feet, which was 65 per cent of the volume in a negotiated agreement of how each side of the industry came on to pay the fund. They came on at 50 per cent. The agreement that we have struck with the industry, everyone comes on this year, as of January 1st past, and they come all on at 70 per cent and the large mill operators that were at 50 per
cent move to 70 per cent. Next year, they go to 100 per cent. That is a negotiated arrangement with the industry.
That is a major amount of dollars in shift and making sure your partners can handle their commitments and are onside in agreement with sustainability is an extremely major achievement for the Province of Nova Scotia. I guess when you have struck a deal with the industry at 70 per cent, this year it would be pretty irrational and prudent to then turn around and say, well, we have decided we will go to 100 per cent.
MR. MACDONELL: Oh, well, the original plan was to go to 100 per cent this year. It is only because the industry didn't like going that far that the department renegotiated with the industry down to 70 per cent.
MR. FAGE: If I may finish answering the question, the reality of a negotiation and the co-operation of a partnership is that you sit down with your partners and come to reasonable arrangements. That is the arrangement that was . . .
MR. MACDONELL: Not when there is only 15 years left in your wood supply.
MR. FAGE: . . . negotiated with those partners, that their funding would come on at those different time schedules. I certainly would remind the honourable member that two years ago, no funds were going into it other than a number of individual stewardship agreements, which were of great benefit to certain areas and were proper to get in place. This is the next step to bring the entire industry on. The forest industry has been harvesting and working in Nova Scotia for over two centuries.
This is a major accomplishment and achievement for the industry and a recognition that there has to be sustainable use out there in the future. Certainly, I, as minister responsible for those agreements and the negotiation, would not jeopardize the long-term good of the agreement by not sitting down with the partners and negotiating. When you come to resolve, making sure we honour our part of the commitment, as well as they honour their part, again, the arrangement was 50 per cent, 70 per cent this year and 100 per cent next year.
MR. MACDONELL: How much time do I have left, Mr. Chairman?
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have four minutes.
MR. MACDONELL: I don't know if there is any point in asking you a question, so I guess I am just going to say what I think will run off your back. The situation this province faces as far as its wood supply is serious. It is beyond serious. There are people in the industry who think that my number is being really conservative and that there is not 15 years left in the wood supply. I am going by your operable forest number. That is assuming that
there has been no cutting on that 5 million acres. You and I both know that that is not right and how much of the 5 million acres you can cut trees on in Nova Scotia has been cut. When I am done, if you can give me a number in two seconds, that would be great.
This information was designed to find out how much wood we are cutting per year and what the supply of wood is in the province. If you and your department can't make the same calculation that I am making and come to a reasonable number, even if you tell me, look, you are out by 10 years or you are out by whatever, you should be able to give me a ballpark figure as to how long you think this is going to last. If you said 25 years, I would say we are in serious trouble. So 15 years tells me we are up against the wall. You talk about an industry that has been around for 200 years, it should be a real debate right now to figure out whether it is going to be around another 50.
Something this province has backed away from is the annual allowable cut. I know everything seems to be, no, we are going to let the industry make those decisions. Well, the only decisions I see the industry making is if you can cut a stick and sell it, you sell it. There is nobody out there waving a flag and saying, this is serious, we have a lot of jobs here that are going to go down the drain in the very near future.
[10:00 a.m.]
What I want to reiterate is what I said yesterday, if we woke up tomorrow and all the trees in Nova Scotia were cut, it wouldn't matter if you put $50 million into silviculture programs, there would be no forest industry here for a long time. That is really what we are up against. Until you decide to take the bull by the horns and put in an annual allowable cut that limits how much we cut in this province, and make sure that the dollars do get into silviculture programs, and stop clear-cutting - if you are going to use clear-cutting use it as a management technique, those stands that clear-cutting would do something for, use it there, but as a general harvesting practice, it costs this province. It is not necessary and you are running out of wood.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The time allotted for the NDP caucus is now expired. We will now go to the Liberal caucus.
The honourable member for Victoria.
MR. KENNETH MACASKILL: Mr. Chairman, I have a number of questions. I am going to follow on with sustainability for just a moment, since we finished on that note. I would ask the minister his version or his views on where we are on sustainability. Are we on target, as we thought we would be when we put out the position paper toward sustainable forestry? Are we on target, as per our projections at that point in time?
MR. FAGE: The honourable member brings up an extremely valid and good point. In previous discussions here on the debate on Supply, we have talked about realizing there is a problem, and certainly the member, as the former minister, would have seen the facts, and all Nova Scotians realize that there is a problem on the sustainability of wood supply. Under the former member's time as minister, he started a lot of initiatives that involved getting sustainability as the number one issue, and getting that process on track.
I would say to the honourable member, with the Registry of Buyers, the wood cutting plan, with the sustainability fund, yes, we are on track. Other related issues regarding endangered species, we are out in front of the pack; we have legislation in place, no other province nor federal government does. In regard to regulations and dealing with watercourses, wetlands, what can happen on stream banks, the whole area associated with that protection, we are very close to tabling the regulations and finishing that up. I would say, in general, yes, we are very close to the target that the department was hoping to achieve.
MR. MACASKILL: I recall, during my tenure, that the small woodlot owners and the harvesting on small woodlots were where we would have liked to focus our attention at that time. Do you feel that the department has the staff, and that they are monitoring the activities on small woodlots?
MR. FAGE: I think the honourable member brings up a very good point. As the honourable member knows, when the federal government stepped back in the early 1990's from being involved in five year forestry agreements, it certainly put a dramatic amount of weight on the provincial department's shoulders, which was on the financing of silviculture and other programs through those years. I know in your tenure you had to deal with a lot of adjustments as well. The small woodlot owner, specifically, and group venture operations probably, or no question, had the most dramatic amount of shift to shoulder through the 1990's. Finding ways such as the sustainability fund to be able to direct funding back there, that particular area is critical.
I certainly believe the staff is in place. They understand the situation, and are willing to work with landowners and sawmill owners to ensure that the new rules are adhered to and there is flexibility, if some of them are not working properly, and we have said to the industry, both landowners and property owners, that this entire process is one where if there is a problem, we will make adjustments as we go. The important thing is that we are on that road to sustainability and those funds are out there.
As the member knows, certainly a number of organizations and committees have been formed, and the small woodlot owner would be the person added, in many cases, to those committees, so their voices are heard. I know a number of committees, in your tenure you would have appointed, and we continue that process.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Just for the information of the committee, we are being visited by the Grade 6 class of Shannon Park Elementary School in Dartmouth North. I would like to welcome you all here today. (Applause) Just to advise the students, we are here in the Subcommittee on Supply, doing debate on the estimates. We are now debating the estimates for the Department of Natural Resources. The honourable member for Victoria is asking the minister about the sustainability of wood resources for our province. You are more than welcome to listen for a little while and enjoy the conversation. Thank you for the interruption.
MR. MACASKILL: Welcome to the class. It is always great to see a school class be part of the debate in either the Red Room or the Chamber.
Mr. Minister, it is very difficult for me to tell a 50 hectare clear-cut maximum. But as I drive up through Brierly Brook in Antigonish County, I see the side of a mountain, it would appear to me that it is more than 50 hectares. The reason I ask the question is, do we monitor that particular clear-cut size? It is very obvious that the side of that mountain looks terrible, because every tree is cut. It is so obvious to the general public that that should be one area where it is so obvious that we certainly would pay more attention to the harvesting activities. Maybe the minister knows the area I am talking about. It is quite visible to the general public.
MR. FAGE: Yes, there is monitoring. You are correct, the maximum size is 50 hectares on any type of single cut or a clear-cut type operation. I would also want to point out, I know it deals with Crown land, but it is an extremely important first step in taking it to the interests of all users in Nova Scotia and especially on public lands, and that is the IRM process. The IRM process takes the view scape, it takes any significant natural feature of any piece of Crown land as one of the areas that must be preserved. Certainly, we would work with our partners who would be doing industrial leases in any of those areas. The view scape and the canopy, if that is a significant area, any harvesting would have to ensure that it protected that, and that the density would remain for the canopy in an area that would be judged of that significance.
MR. MACASKILL: Let's move to your department in general, just a few questions. I noticed your budget has been increased by 5 per cent this year. It has gone from $51.3 million to $53 million, almost $54 million. Can you tell me where and why the department would be so lucky? I am glad you are getting an increase, it is certainly a department that is very close to my heart. But I am wondering, in times of restraint, why did the Finance Minister see fit to increase your budget by almost $3 million, if my figures are correct? If they are not, I apologize.
MR. FAGE: The honourable member certainly is correct. I think there are maybe a couple of remarks that should preface the budget. Nova Scotia in the forest industry and natural resource industries of mining, energy - and a number of them are significant contributors to the Nova Scotia economy - we had an increase in revenues of over 7 per cent in this province this year. In that increase there were some federal transfers, but we achieved some major growth in the Nova Scotia economy of over 3 per cent this year.
On a deficit reduction program it is extremely important to stay on target and our target was $91 million for this year and it allows for planning not only for business, but for government and government departments. So we accomplished our deficit reduction this year and this year allowed the luxury in some cases that expenditures of that 7 per cent increase were slightly under 4 per cent. So it allowed for some of the critical priorities in different government departments to be addressed and, obviously, the major overall government priorities are health and education, but in the Department of Natural Resources we certainly had some areas that we felt were critical.
One of them was the climate change issue which we were involved in, the Kyoto protocol, CO2 gas emission. So we have budgeted an additional $150,000 for that particular exercise. The second one that we just launched several weeks ago is the energy strategy for the Province of Nova Scotia. That is key to the development of this province and it is an open public process that engages all Nova Scotians and interest groups on a variety of issues dealing with energy and how it should be dealt with in this province. We allocated an additional $75,000 to that project in the budget.
As well, we took a look at some other critical areas and Crown lands were increased from $1.3 million last year to a $3.5 million expenditure on silviculture on Crown land, which is our commitment to ensure that sustainability is continued and increased on Crown land. As well, another major increase in the department's budget was a realignment of how services are handled with Transportation and Public Works on leasing of premises and that policy change where the department became responsible for its own leasing caused the transfer of $1.533 million into the budget to look after the costs of leasing facilities. Those would be some of the major areas of increase.
MR. MACASKILL: But my figures tell me that the Minerals and Energy Branch has taken a cut of $100,000, is that not correct, and do you foresee any great activity in the Minerals and Energy Branch this year when we're taking a $100,000 cut?
MR. FAGE: Yes, the majority was part of our budget plan announced the year before of a two year plan of the phasing out of maintaining staff at the core library in Stellarton. That would be the major issue or concern there. Staff levels in Halifax dealing with industry certainly have been maintained and the core library is certainly going to be maintained, but at this point we are not anticipating keeping permanent staff there and that would be the
second half of that major realignment over two years and it was $138,000 that was achieved there.
MR. MACASKILL: Let me ask you about your role as minister of three departments, which I guess leaves a very heavy workload for you. Do you feel that you can do justice to all of the three departments? Were you able to visit your depots and your regional offices; how many of them were you able to visit? Were you able to go to each office? You have been minister now for two years. I am referring now just to Natural Resources. Were you able to get out to visit these offices?
MR. FAGE: First of all, thank you for your question and certainly I view it as a strong privilege to serve on the Executive Council and, as the member well knows, when one is asked that privilege, one doesn't dictate where one's duties would lie, but certainly from my perspective I feel I have been able to address the issues in any of the departments as they arise and certainly, as you well know, issues come and go and become critical in any department over a length of time and then move on to other issues as they're addressed. But the issue of being able to visit depots in the Department of Natural Resources across the province, if my memory serves me correctly, I believe I have been at six depots within the province in the last year.
MR. MACASKILL: I know, at least I felt it was a big responsibility and a full responsibility just to be minister of one department.
The Planning Secretariat budget has gone up by $1.7 million. I am wondering why there would be such a dramatic increase there and why you would not focus your attention on front line rather than planning. Would the minister explain the reason why they focus more on planning than on front-line workers?
MR. FAGE: Again, the increase in the Planning Secretariat budget is that those dollars that are flowing in from the lease of the premises reflect a realignment in government services from the Department of Transportation and Public Works and those dollars are allocated to pay for the leases of the various facilities that the Department of Natural Resources leases around the province, not an increase in staff appropriation or other activities. They reflect only lease payments that they are now responsible for that have been transferred from the Department of Transportation and Public Works.
MR. MACASKILL: The minister says they are attempting to grow the mineral industry in Nova Scotia, but yet we see a cut to their budget and in talking to some members of the mineral society, they're expecting a full and vigorous year. Can the minister explain why there would be a cut to their budget and still the mineral society is saying they expect a very full and busy year?
MR. FAGE: The mineral group is certainly running the full complement here in planning and development. The reduction, again, to the mineral budget involves the core library and the $138,000 associated with maintaining the staff at the core library. I should add the mineral industry here in Nova Scotia has certainly been providing many increases in growth and business opportunities in this province. We have a number of exciting opportunities that hopefully will come to fruition over the next year and, as well, the last year and a half we have seen the development, certainly in the Port Hawkesbury area, of a major investment. Gypsum Canada invested over $20 million in upgrades at their Falmouth facility and a number of other operations continued to grow.
This past winter has made it awfully hard on the Department of Transportation and Public Works budgets, but record years for salt production at the facilities here in Nova Scotia and certainly the aggregates and other minerals have had an exceptional year. As well, the petroleum industry, as the member is well aware, is doing extremely well.
MR. MACASKILL: Let me ask the minister, what is your department doing to help mineral companies? I want to remind the minister of a specific company, Georgia Pacific. It took them a number of years to put in place all the necessary permits to open the new Melford mine. I heard a statement by one of their CEOs that once they mine the holdings that they have, they would never explore any more opportunities in Nova Scotia because of the delay and the great amount of red tape to secure permits. I am wondering, can the minister tell the committee today if there is any move to ease that burden on the companies that move to Nova Scotia and find themselves running into stone walls at every turn they make on obtaining permits?
MR. FAGE: I want to thank the honourable member for his question. We see a high priority in the mineral division and that is why there was actually an extra appropriation of $51,000 to help conduct those type of businesses.
As the member is well aware, the siting of any operation dealing with minerals or excavation normally deal with the Department of Natural Resources, the Department of Environment and other related economic and municipal permitting that may be required. What we have adopted as a government to help facilitate that process is the one-window process whereby all those departments come together and work on those issues that may be of concern during the permitting process and to help the company meet the criteria to receive those permits.
MR. MACASKILL: But you would agree, I am sure, that the cost to these companies is astronomical and in many respects are fighting the people who are opposed to any type of activity, particularly mining?
MR. FAGE: The honourable member is absolutely right. In Nova Scotia's jurisdiction, in other Atlantic Provinces, or in any jurisdiction in Canada, in North America, environmental permitting on any type of operation is very stringent. Certainly it is prudent and proper that the environment is protected and that mining operations have a business plan that takes that into account with proper remediation and those types of things. I think everyone realizes that and the general public obviously is very aware of it and wants those criteria met.
In helping a company to develop and manage and move ahead, from the department's perspective, facilitating proper information allows those companies to make prudent, timely decisions and not having the process drag on is what a business person or a company wants. That is what we are attempting to do to the best of our ability by doing the one window and having all the different government departments whose regulations would impede at the desk and dealing with that specific issue to help speed that process up for that particular company or individual.
MR. MACASKILL: I know the minister in his other portfolio is quite well aware of a situation in aquaculture that I am very familiar with. It appears that there is all kinds of money available from some source for the opponents where they can hire expert lawyers in that field and I am sure the Melford site is not the only one where a company that wants to come to Nova Scotia finds that great hurdle.
The blue book has mentioned that the government was going to strongly promote gold mining and peat extraction in the province. Has your department made any movement towards fulfilling that promise?
MR. FAGE: The promotion of the coal mining, aggregate or minerals is a high priority of the Department of Natural Resources. We have the expertise and certainly assist companies with their explorations with analysis and in many other regards with coal, specifically, the issue of the Devco mines and the operation, we are in contact with our federal counterparts trying to keep abreast of their dealings with private companies and their desire to divest themselves of the coal mines in relationship to Devco.
We continue to work with a number of Nova Scotia private companies that are in the business of supplying coal to Nova Scotia Power and some other customers and have seen that number stable and some growth in some companies.
With regard to peat production, we are dealing with a number of companies who are looking at other areas where peat is prevalent in the province and I know there is a tender process out there right now on a couple of perspective sites dealing with companies of Nova Scotia origin.
MR. MACASKILL: I just have another question before I turn the floor over to my colleagues. Let me ask you about the Petroleum Directorate as it is now being scaled down to a great extent. Would you believe that the Petroleum Directorate would be better served at this point under Natural Resources?
MR. FAGE: From my perspective, I feel that the Petroleum Directorate with the amount of development and the success of finds here in Nova Scotia is placed appropriately where it is right now.
MR. MACASKILL: Mr. Chairman, I would like to turn the floor over to my colleague, the member for Lunenburg West. I want to thank the minister and his staff for their co-operation.
MR. FAGE: I want to thank the honourable member for his questions.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Lunenburg West, Mr. Downe. Your time is now 10:28 a.m. You have until 11:02 a.m. I added an extra minute for the interruption of the introduction of the class.
The honourable member for Lunenburg West.
MR. DONALD DOWNE: Thank you very much Mr. Chairman. I want to thank my colleague for allowing me a couple of questions. Mr. Minister, as one of two past ministers of one of the most exciting and dynamic departments in government, I think my colleague was referring to the fact that it is a very busy department and to have Fisheries, in which I know the previous minister was always busy and Agriculture is very time-consuming. As both Mr. MacAskill and I were Ministers of Natural Resources, we know how busy it is. It wasn't a matter of competency of the minister that he was referring to, I don't think. It was more just the sheer workload and time.
Thank goodness, I know one thing, you have extremely competent staff in the department that really believes and cares, in all your portfolios. They care a lot about the industries that you are privileged to represent as minister. I believe he meant the question as just the workload and can you keep up forever on that treadmill that you are running because it is a horrendous schedule that you have to be running. As previous ministers, we know what is required. So I think that is the context in which the question was asked and at some point, it has to show up and it is certainly no reflection to you personally because there is only so much an individual can do. I think that was the context.
[10:30 a.m.]
I come from the balsam fir Christmas tree capital of the world in Lunenburg County and we are very proud of our Christmas tree industry. I was happy to hear that we have two specialists now and I want to compliment you for that. It has been an issue that the industry has wanted and requested. The Christmas tree industry met with the Department of Natural Resources - I think they have a very good working relationship - a number of years ago, and I think there has been an effort. I compliment your deputy and your senior staff and staff for that. That is an important one for our county. I think my colleague across the way, the member for Chester-St. Margaret's would agree that in the working relationship there, it is important to have a good, positive relationship. I thank you for the specialists and for that relationship.
The forestry industry is very important to us. One of the really big concerns - we hear about the foot-and-mouth issue in Agriculture and the concern that has - is clearly the brown spruce long-horned beetle. I have to get Kenny to write that down because I always get it mixed up; is it a brown long-horned spruce beetle or a beetle with long horns and the spruce is brown? Whatever. Entomologists are important in this whole issue. The work that is going on at Point Pleasant Park is critical. We are not out of the woods - excuse my pun - at this point. The $1 billion-plus industry in forestry is still a major concern, and the work that has gone on federally and provincially is critical. We all hope and pray that we don't have a problem. My question to you, from the entomologist's point of view in your department, what is the budget currently for the entomologist for Nova Scotia?
MR. FAGE: I want to thank the honourable member for his observations and his question. I certainly concur with him. As minister, I certainly have an exceptional staff and they do a great job, and it is a pleasure to work with them. In regard to the entomologist position and the budget, it is identical to last year. I guess we don't have the exact dollar figure for you right here and now, but we can get that for you, honourable member. It is identical to last year.
MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, it appears to me that I thought the budget for the entomologist, as far as doing the work, was somewhere around $7,000, I am probably not accurate on that, but that is what I heard. The concern I have is that the budget for that work is tight, and I want to say that if you could look into that matter, it is a concern. They don't have enough money to put out publications, they don't have money to do the things they feel they should be doing. I know, for example, the Christmas tree industry is not subsidized, it creates literally $40-plus million directly in the economy, and it is generally American money, and it creates a tremendous amount of employment and wealth for our province and our counties, all over Nova Scotia. They are concerned about having the entomologist, not only for dealing with the brown spruce long-horned beetle but other aphids, other problems that they have within their industry.
They don't ask for subsidies, but they sure need to have technical support and technical staff. They need to have those individuals with the budget. Your Christmas tree specialist would probably agree with that, that they need that technical side to be able to know what to use on those trees and how to deal with it and, of course, the issue in Point Pleasant Park is still a huge area of concern. We are all hoping and praying that that doesn't turn out to be bigger than what it currently is, but, boy, it can be and it is going to be devastating.
I guess my question to you, Mr. Minister, would be, would you look into it? It is a concern that has been brought to my attention by the Christmas tree industry, that they need to have those specialists to do the work and to provide the technical information that they need, not only for Christmas trees but for forestry overall.
MR. FAGE: The member expresses a concern, and certainly when I have met on several occasions with the Christmas tree producers they have expressed that. Certainly, on examination, that is why we reinstated the technicians for that type of support. It is needed, and works out well. In regard to the long-horned infestation, I would like to point out to all members that that is a named pest with the CFIA, under federal Agriculture as the lead agency and is thus doing that. That is why as minister, as the news broke, I was careful to not step in front of a named disease and incur the costs for the Province of Nova Scotia, and end up in a situation where the budget was depleted like on other pests that we have had earlier.
We receive full cost recovery from the federal government. I hear what the honourable member is saying. I know it takes some of the time away from other species, but our entomologist and a number of staff and, certainly, the level is not as high as it was last spring, at times we had over 50 technicians in Point Pleasant Park. We recovered those costs from the federal government, which was certainly helpful to our budget, but in regard to the technicians involved with the Christmas tree growers, on re-examination of their needs and the industry, and certainly with the honourable member's intervention, that is why we felt it was proper to reinstate them and make sure they were there last year by year end and in this year's budget.
MR. DOWNE: It is just so technical. I have a hearing impairment in my ear, and I find it very hard to hear. It is so muffled in here, I can't discern what is being said, totally. I trust that you were saying that there has been some improvement in that for the Christmas tree industry, but also that the entomologists' budget itself, that there has been improvement. Did you say that?
MR. FAGE: The pest management budget salary is at $378,000 this year. With the reinstatement of the technicians to support the entomologists for the Christmas tree industry, those are all positive. It is one of those, as you well know, if there is a situation, we find the resources and rise to the occasion. With the reinstatement, as the industry requested, of the
technicians, it obviously, I think, adds a lot of technical support to the entomologists in the industry.
MR. DOWNE: And that they would have enough budget to be able to transmit the information back to the industry, because that was the other side of it. If they have the information and they don't have the budget to mail out the information, that was a concern.
MR. FAGE: Okay.
MR. DOWNE: I am going to ask just a couple of local questions. In Lunenburg West we are fortunate, we have a couple of beaches that are pretty pristine and important. We have a lot of them, actually. Two in particular are Crescent Beach, and the Friends of Crescent Beach, each year, do a cleanup and a beach sweep, they help look after it, every day people walk the beach to help clean it. Your staff has been very helpful over the years, with port-a-potties, portable toilets, and some garbage cans. The society has already established plastic bag holders to help pick up garbage every day. Mr. Minister, can we count on those supports again this year? They are important to the Friends of Crescent Beach and to the community.
MR. FAGE: We certainly would look forward to supplying those same services this year, again.
MR. DOWNE: In regard to the next beach down, it is called Rissers Beach. It is a campground that used to make money. Hopefully it still does make money for the department. In that particular area, are there any capital projects scheduled for this year?
MR. FAGE: I hesitate to say yes or no, we are in that process right now of evaluating the capital budget, and whether funds would be allocated to that particular beach or not I won't know for a short time.
MR. DOWNE: They moved the gate a year ago, but it is a very popular campground. Mr. Minister, are we going to have fee increases this year, to campgrounds?
MR. FAGE: Again, that particular situation of fees for campgrounds is currently under review. We haven't made a decision yet. It is being reviewed though.
MR. DOWNE: I remember, myself, the pressure from the private sector saying you don't want it so cheap that they can't get a price for their campground, and yet it should be affordable for people. I am sure that you will try to find that balance. That particular park by the way, as well as the ones in Chester and area, are very well received by the public and I think if you look back over the information you get back from the correspondence, it has been well received. It has been a great flagship for the province from a tourism point of view
and utilization point of view. The utilization issue, we talked about shoulder seasons in campgrounds. Can you tell me what your plan is for this year for shoulder seasons?
MR. FAGE: What we have done with that whole particular subject, last year we conducted a review with the Department of Tourism on whether they should be running campgrounds or the Department of Natural Resources. After that review we came to the conclusion that the campgrounds and parks should rightly remain in the jurisdiction of the Department of Natural Resources in which they've always been. So what we have done in that whole regard and certainly the fee structures involved there, we are currently reviewing and working with the Department of Tourism to better market our parks and that whole group of issues that would be related to it will come out of that particular study that's ongoing right now with the Department of Tourism.
As you have rightly pointed out, those are very popular beaches, campgrounds and parks. We have a number around the province and there's a lot of potential there for us to increase tourism and to do better with the province. So that's why we joined in partnership with the Department of Tourism to help market them and that will be our strategy into the future.
MR. DOWNE: That is very encouraging, I am happy to hear that. I am also happy to hear that it is not going over to Tourism, it is staying with DNR, because it is going to be impossible to police, it is going to be impossible to manage, and the department is professional. They have done a brilliant job and I am happy to see that that has been corrected.
The issue of policing, there has been talk about whether Justice is going to have conservation officers under the purview of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. I, personally, would oppose that and I don't feel that that is the right way to go. From what I know, from the information I have received to date, I believe our conservation officers are extremely well trained and professional. They understand what's going on. They understand the client whom they are dealing with.
I am not saying that the RCMP aren't, but the training has been very specific. If you go to some of the colleges, whether it is the college in Ontario, Sir Sandford Fleming College, or these other ones that are in Sackville, they are geared specifically for our industry and I would certainly encourage whatever you could do to, and maybe it has been resolved, but clearly I feel that we're going down the wrong track if we turn that over to the RCMP. I would rather see it stay within the department and under the ability of the minister and senior staff to work with our conservation officers because we have Aboriginal people involved with that program. There is a list of things that have gone on. There have been great accomplishments and I think they are doing a tremendous job.
MR. FAGE: I thank the honourable member for his inquiry. In late October last year we had discussions with the Department of Justice and had concluded as a government that the enforcement division indeed would remain with the Department of Natural Resources and so that situation is permanently resolved.
I would like to echo some of your comments. Certainly in looking at regional depots, the service that the Department of Natural Resources supplies and the regulation requirement in regard to parks' enforcement, those officers have specialized skills that other officers do not have from forestry training to wildlife management and a whole host of other issues. Not only is their expertise strongly needed and desired in DNR, but it gives DNR, with the park officials, with enforcement officials, enough central mass of people in each one of those regional depots that they can deal with a whole host of problems that aren't directly related to those individual issues.
As minister I would be extremely concerned on how you could offer to the general public the protection of the property of the people of Nova Scotia if you didn't have those numbers out there in the regional officers and to transfer them to other departments would make it, in my view, very difficult to manage and maintain the services that we are able to maintain out there because many of these individuals do some multi-tasking on the side and it just adds to the betterment of the community and the services that one division of the department can support another division and so, you know, certainly as the department's minister, I am a strong proponent in those discussions that the staff were in the proper place now.
MR. DOWNE: I am happy to hear that, Mr. Minister, and I support you on that. I am going to be turning over to my colleague in a moment, I just want to mention that air services budget is up by $100,000. I assume that's to do with the cost of the fuel, but I am happy to see that that's there.
That is a service, value for money, in my view, the studies that we have done previously. It shows value for money and if you contract it out, all you need is one year with a couple of fires and you've got your budget blown all to pieces, but not only that, is for the total utilization within the wildlife service.
Mr. Minister, I want to congratulate you for answering those questions and I am happy to see the direction it is going. Congratulations to your staff. I am not always rough, you know. The industry is thanking you for the work that you've done and your staff have done on softwood lumber. I compliment you for that, you know, there's been a good effort by all parties, but a good effort by the minister. So where there is a rose, a rose will be given. If there's a brick, I might lob the odd time but, you know, I would like to turn it over to my colleague, the member for Cape Breton The Lakes, and wish you and the department good luck.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The time has now been passed to the honourable member for Cape Breton The Lakes. I just wish to advise you that you have about 14 minutes remaining in your initial time. If you require more time, I don't believe the NDP caucus have any further questions. So at the conclusion of 14 minutes you can carry on with further questions if you do require any more time.
The honourable member for Cape Breton the Lakes.
MR. BRIAN BOUDREAU: Good morning, Mr. Minister. I have a local question actually and it is one in regard to what I spoke to you about a couple of times. It is in regard to the drinking water at the depot in Coxheath. Local residents used to be able to access the drinking water source traditionally, actually for years and years, and then a short month after you took over the department it was eliminated. So could you just explain if you have any intentions of allowing the residents to obtain drinking water in the Coxheath area?
I would like to bring to your attention, as I know I already discussed this with you, in that particular area of my constituency there was a study done on the water and there were cancer causing elements in that particular water supply. Local residents enjoyed this water supply to provide them with water for drinking and cooking primarily. So that is a very important resource that the community lost and I would like to ask if you have any intention to re-evaluate the situation and allow the residents once again to go in there and obtain clean drinking water?
MR. FAGE: Indeed the honourable member has brought this to my attention and we have had several discussions on it. The situation in not allowing the general public to be in the area where they had traditionally gotten water from time to time, because of water quality in the local area there, is a health and safety issue from the department's perspective in that fire, air and a number of just ordinary management situations regarding the depot made it very difficult when the general public was in the area where the workplace was occurring.
As I have indicated to the member, certainly, if the volume of water is sufficient to maintain it and the member can rally support from the local community to have a line dug to off-site that would be acceptable to the municipality and not a traffic restriction, we would certainly look at that.
The other issue that I think we have to keep in mind here, too, is the liability and, obviously, I think the department, in conjunction with Agriculture, could monitor the water quality, but more than 20 people, obviously, would be under the new regulations and would be consuming that water, so the quality would have to be monitored. The primary issue of why the practice was discontinued was the general public was coming into the work area next to the side of the depot building where the outlet faucet is, but if the local community can find some funds to get it off-site via pipe and the water volume is there, we would be willing to look at it.
MR. BOUDREAU: Mr. Minister, during the previous administration, there were a couple of attempts by local staff and there were one or two members of the local staff, in particular, who were continually complaining about this water supply and the turmoil, as you described. However, there was an investigation and, of course, I was put on it and had some viewing of the situation and there was absolutely no issue whatsoever to support what you just indicated. In fact, in 1999, the minister responsible for occupational health and safety issued a ministerial order to allow that water supply to be maintained. Do you have any material or any paper that would support what you just indicated to the committee?
MR. FAGE: Not right here, but I could certainly supply that to you.
MR. BOUDREAU: And are they signed documents, Mr. Minister?
MR. FAGE: I couldn't tell you that particular piece of information until I have seen them myself.
MR. BOUDREAU: So would you be kind enough to table those documents with this committee?
MR. FAGE: Yes, no problem. The recommendation, obviously, would have come from the department and we can find that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Just a reminder, a request for any documentation has to be filed with both caucuses or the chairman of the committee.
MR. BOUDREAU: Mr. Chairman, I would like to turn the remainder of my time over to my colleague, the member for Victoria.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Victoria, you have nine minutes remaining in your initial allotment. If you need more time than that, I understand the NDP have no further questions for this minister, so you can go beyond the nine minute limit, if you wish.
The honourable member for Victoria.
MR. KENNETH MACASKILL: Mr. Chairman, I have just a few questions that I would like to ask and they are only short snappers. I notice you are not exhausted from answering questions, so you could stand another minute or two. Relative to campground rates, are there any increases planned for this year or in the near future?
MR. FAGE: That particular issue is being reviewed right now and I really can't say yes or no, but we are reviewing the campground rates in a committee within our department now and, obviously, as the honourable member knows, it is always one of trying to balance between the privates who are always concerned that rates may be too low and hindering their business and, secondly, to make sure you provide people the opportunity to stay at provincial campgrounds in good, clean, safe areas. There is a cost to doing that, as the member is well aware. Those issues are being resolved over the next week or two, if there will or won't be an increase.
MR. MACASKILL: Are there any changes or any plans for the shoulder season program to be continued or to be in place for this year or extended or expanded or cut or whatever?
MR. FAGE: Those programs are also under review. What we have done, out of the off-shoot of our discussions last year, where it was proposed that the Parks Division would go to the Department of Tourism, we did an exhaustive review with that department and came to the conclusion that it would be best to leave the Parks Division with Natural Resources and under their direction. What we have done is come up with a good working relationship with the Department of Tourism and Culture and their expertise in marketing. Certainly, in that whole gamut of issues from price to shoulder season to amenities that can be provided, the promotion, those are all the issues that are under review at this present time and we will have a statement in the very near future, obviously.
MR. MACASKILL: I know these questions are sort of all over the map, but they are just ones I had. I had other ones more detailed, but due to the shortness of the time, I would like to get some information on just a few questions, and they may be spread all over the place. Are there any changes to your air service, any discussions relative to privatization or any changes relative to the air service you provide now?
MR. FAGE: We can certainly maintain the standard fleet of helicopters and, as you are aware, the airplane was outliving its usefulness due to age and was sold last year. We have had unsolicited proposals from time to time come in but, certainly, we are conducting no review to do that and no review to privatize or contract out, at this point.
MR. MACASKILL: No plans to replace that fixed wing?
MR. FAGE: Certainly no plans, at this point. In last year's budget, we looked at the age of the plane and it was decided that the operating costs would only increase to a tremendously more expensive level. So we decided it would be prudent to do away with the plane, but certainly no ongoing discussions, at this point, looking at replacing it or purchasing another one.
MR. MACASKILL: Can you describe or tell the committee where your department may stand at the present time relative to the conservation officers and RCMP changeover that may or may not take place?
MR. FAGE: I thank the honourable member for his question. As the member is aware, a review of where enforcement officers would best suit the province was initiated last year and a change was proposed to move them to the Department of Justice and an offshoot of that was a proposal that the RCMP may be involved, but after a review and consultation with the Department of Justice, the two departments made a joint decision and announcement in late October that the Enforcement Division would remain with the Department of Natural Resources. I would like to comment that, certainly, from my view as minister, that and the parks decision were both very prudent decisions to make and those services allow the department to carry out its regulatory and mandated services for the Province of Nova Scotia in regard to enforcement and parks.
I think you would also recognize and probably agree very readily that, when you move into regional offices and regional divisions, having that variety of services out there to interact with the public makes those offices viable. It gives an opportunity, at certain times, for those individuals to help other individuals in different divisions of the department. Those services that we offer to the public would be very difficult to maintain if there were less people in those regional offices and that overall support and cross support between different divisions in Natural Resources really works quite well in the regional areas and I think is critical to maintaining service there.
[11:00 a.m.]
MR. MACASKILL: Mr. Minister, I think the general perception would be just what you said. In general the public would feel that it would be a rather difficult and strange move to move the conservation duties to the RCMP. My final question, and I know the member for Lunenburg West touched on the entomologist and the brown spruce long-horned beetle, but can I ask the minister at what point, if that insect is found in other areas of the province, does the federal government move their support? Would they continue to support the Department of Natural Resources on containing this beetle if it spread throughout the province?
MR. FAGE: I guess the critical thing as we review the process is, first, that obviously this beetle is a large threat to our arboreal forests. Everyone acknowledges and is doing their best, first of all, to contain and hopefully eradicate, but in the economic cost of trying to eradicate it, the critical decision was to allow or make representation, or keep the feet to the fire, of Agriculture Canada, through the CFIA. Since it was an exotic pest, it was their responsibility to name it, which they eventually did. Our staff, in large numbers, are there to
support, but the critical part on the expenditure side and budgetary side, by having the CFIA name the disease, is that they are responsible for all costs.
So instead of those large amounts of resources that we support the CFIA with, coming as a cost to the taxpayers of Nova Scotia and out of the budget of Natural Resources, those costs are recovered from the federal government and that's the significance of making sure it is a named pest by the CFIA and then it is their obligation to pay all the costs associated with the eradication attempts. So we have received those cost recoveries and will continue to do so. We will do everything we can to ensure that it is contained and, hopefully, eradicated, but the lead agency, because it is an exotic named pest, will continue to be the Canadian Food and Inspection Agency.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Your initial hour has transpired. If you wish to have more time, you are more than welcome.
MR. MACASKILL: Just one short question. Does the federal government continue to support the elimination of that beetle for years and years and years? I guess that's the question that I'm looking for. At what point in time does the federal government withdraw their support from trying to eradicate that beetle? Is it one year, 10 years, 20 years? I guess that's the question.
MR. FAGE: It is my understanding, and we can check more fully, that that name process is an indefinite period. There is no specific time frame. A re-evaluation process occurs over time where if it becomes a local or indigenous species, then it would end up being moved off that name list and then costs associated with it, if the province is making expenditures, then they would come from the Department of Natural Resources instead of a cost recovery from the federal program, but I am not aware that there is any finite time period, but I can check that for you. My understanding is there would be a review at some point and if they wanted the designation to change from being a named insect to a local species, then their responsibility ends on providing the cost for it.
MR. MACASKILL: Thank you, Mr. Minister and Mr. Chairman. That completes my questions.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That concludes questions from the Liberal and NDP caucuses. Are there any questions from the PC caucus at this time for the minister? Hearing none, an opportunity then for the minister to make some closing remarks.
The honourable Minister of Natural Resources.
HON. ERNEST FAGE: Mr. Chairman, I think the questions and concerns raised by members of the House in relationship to the Department of Natural Resources are ones of deep concern and certainly ones that the Province of Nova Scotia and indeed all Nova Scotians share. When we're discussing a department that is the keeper of the true treasures of the province, that is the property and the natural resources of the province, it indeed requires proper scrutiny, suggestions and exploration of alternative plans and certainly the scrutiny that resources are in place to do a proper job of protecting, first of all, and, secondly, of maintaining those resources.
Some areas that we didn't explore that the department is keenly involved in, in that true treasure part of Nova Scotia which is the wilderness and the property owned by Nova Scotia, is indeed the acquisition of new areas in Nova Scotia. Through partnerships, whether it is the Nature Trust here in Nova Scotia, the Nature Conservancy of Canada, or organizations such as Ducks Unlimited, or private individuals, that's the method that we use to see those areas in Nova Scotia that deserve protection become part of the trust for all Nova Scotians. I would want to point out to honourable members that I really feel we've had some major accomplishments in that area in this past year and when you look at a number of projects, whether it is King's Head, or the Kingsburg area, or an area such as the Musquodoboit Estuary where significant property was turned over for the protection of all Nova Scotians and many of those areas involved waterfowl, and wildlife. It becomes an impressive option that we're able to bring under provincial control and protection with our partners for all Nova Scotians.
The federal government in the last year and a half have played roles in that. When we see McNab's Island and areas even here close to the heart of metro that become part of that provincial system of protected areas that the Province of Nova Scotia can help manage with local community groups, those are significant pieces of property.
We have a strong commitment to continue that, Mr. Chairman, because as many real estate agents would say, they're not making any more of it and there are significant areas around this province and there are very generous people, community groups and individuals who are willing to help in the effort to set aside significant properties for all Nova Scotians to enjoy in the future. So I think it is paramount upon all of us to continue that effort and acknowledge those efforts of those individual citizens.
Another area, in summation, that I would just like to talk about and there was a lot of discussion generated from the debate on the estimates, is the sustainability piece here with the Province of Nova Scotia and the department's and the government's efforts, and indeed all members' efforts, to look at sustainability on provincial Crown lands here in the province and what we're doing. I know when you start to look at all the factors that hinge upon sustainability in Nova Scotia, you start to understand the number of influences that take place. Ones like the national commitment on forest strategy and the Nova Scotia Action Plan
are key. The White Horse Mining Accord dealing with minerals is key. The Nova Scotia Forest Strategy on Private and Crown Lands that we have discussed with the buyer's list, with harvesting plans, with the Nova Scotia Sustainability Fund for Forestry which involves our partners, all the harvesters and roundwood buyers in the Province of Nova Scotia.
Also, the integrated resource management which is the identification and the blueprint of all Crown lands in this province where, for the first time, we have conducted an extensive audit with public sector involvement, with private citizens and communities involved in a major way to identify all significant areas or features of landscape on Crown lands across this province. It is an ongoing process when someone comes forward with a new feature identified then the future use of that particular piece of Crown land will take those features into account on any future development or change that may occur with that particular piece of property.
Also in dealing with sustainable forests in Nova Scotia is the wood supply analysis. Over the last several hours we have had debate over that particular issue of how sustainable is the supply, what do we have to do to maintain that supply and what are the real options out there to ensure that the 22,000 people that are currently - indirectly or directly - involved in the forest industry of this province, which is over a $1 billion generator for our economy, have a sustainable future. Those issues of ensuring that all land under any ownership are involved and that there are clear obligations and clear rules to help finance that and that there are clear rules and regulations on how water quality, wetlands and harvesting techniques will interplay with that is key to providing, again, that sustainable forest.
Also under sustainable forest, again we have the wildlife habitat protection issues. Those, whether it is quarter areas, dealing with the wetlands, can hinge upon and we have responsibilities to ensure that we protect our wildlife, wildlife habitat and we move forward with policies that are sound and sensible to allow that to occur.
Another piece of legislation or regulation that hinges upon this is the ecological land classification. Again, here we have another piece of classification that is another overlay on how we are going to treat properties and lands in Nova Scotia and how we are going to treat their use and protect them for the future.
The next piece of strategy and legislation that is layered over top of sustainable forestry is the endangered species strategy. I know the former government played a lead role on the endangered species strategy and we worked with our federal counterparts and certainly we take no second seat to anyone in this country on that particular species and strategy. We take particular pride that we have passed endangered species legislation and that we have proclaimed our first 10 and we will proclaim more endangered species as policy and guidelines are developed and as new species meet that criteria with investigation.
We have come forward with an old forest policy so that significant areas of old growth forests in the Province of Nova Scotia are protected and have some strategy to ensure that they are there for future generations and help with the diversity.
Another piece of strategy and legislation that overlays is the parks and protected areas strategy. With 31 protected sites in Nova Scotia, as a percentage we are a leader in Canada and that has been acknowledged by the Sierra Club, and as a department, working with the Department of Environment, we are responsible for those areas. We work with different community groups to ensure that infills are added, the continued upkeep of those particular areas, and the designation of rules and protocols that we work on with our partners.
The biodiversity strategy again is another area that we need to spend a little time on to make sure that that strategy is in place and workable, as well as the national criteria that comes now and then from the federal government. I think, obviously, we have to work with our partners, but we have to do not only what is good for the environment and the province, but what is good for Nova Scotians in relation to that policy.
Before I conclude, Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out and congratulate the gentleman on my left hand here. Frank Dunn is moving in his duties, taking on larger duties and a larger role. He is moving to the Treasury and Policy Board, very shortly. Frank has worked in the CSU unit and with the different departments that he has been responsible with under Natural Resources. I will give you a few facts here and it shows you how many duties and how things change quickly in time.
Frank assumed his duties with the department five years ago. He has been with different departments, 35 budget summaries in those five years, as well as 11 deputy ministers. So things have changed dramatically in the last five years, and Frank has been involved in a few of those changes and quite a few budget estimates. So, Frank, we want to wish you well in your new duties and have very much appreciated your counsel and guidance over my tenure with the Department of Natural Resources and the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. With that, I would like to conclude my remarks, Mr. Chairman, and thank everyone.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr. Minister. Now it is time to call for the resolutions. Just to correct Hansard earlier, I misquoted and said Resolutions E12 and E14. We are actually doing Resolutions E11 and E39.
Resolution E11 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $53,945,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect to the Department of Natural Resources, pursuant to the Estimate and the business plan of the Tidal Power Corporation be approved.
Resolution E39 - Resolved, that the business plan of Nova Scotia Harness Racing Incorporated be approved.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolutions stand?
The resolutions stand.
Thank you. I now call the estimates of the honourable Minister of Tourism and Culture.
Resolution E31 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $39,457,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Tourism and Culture, pursuant to the Estimate and the business plans of the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia and the Nova Scotia Arts Council be approved.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to welcome the minister to the Subcommittee on Supply and debate of the estimates. You have an opportunity now to make some opening remarks and introductions of your senior staff. I now pass the floor to you, sir.
The honourable Minister of Tourism and Culture.
HON. RODNEY MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, I want to first off introduce some of the staff that are with me. I have my Deputy Minister, Michele McKenzie; Frances Martin, Executive Director of Corporate Affairs; David Ross, as well, the Director of Policy; Kate Johnson, Acting Director of Finance; Barb Palmeter, Finance Coordinator; Donna Jones, Acting Budget Officer; Tony Martin and Blaise Landry from the Nova Scotia Sport and Recreation.
Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to take this opportunity to speak briefly about the Department of Tourism and Culture, along with my other portfolios. My department's mission is to champion the development, preservation and promotion of tourism, culture and heritage. Our aim is to stimulate economic growth, develop sustainable communities and provide for stewardship of our natural and cultural heritage for the benefit of all Nova Scotians.
I have said it often but let me say it again: tourism and culture are the perfect industries for our times. They promote our great province, the quality of life, thriving on both tradition and innovation. They promote a healthy lifestyle, the natural world and history. They encourage physical fitness, cultural appreciation and having fun and they help make Nova Scotia a better place where people want to live.
I can tell you that I thoroughly enjoyed my time thus far in my position since the summer of 1999. I can also tell you as well that the staff at the Department of Tourism and Culture, as well as Nova Scotia Sport and Recreation, the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission, the Youth Secretariat and so on have been more than encouraging and helpful during my time. We have and will continue to undertake many initiatives to grow these vibrant and significant sectors of our economy.
Our goals are straightforward. The first is to develop the economic and export potential of Nova Scotia's tourism and cultural industries.
The second is to support economic growth and quality of life in communities throughout Nova Scotia through the development of culture, heritage and tourism sectors.
Our third goal is to provide stewardship of Nova Scotia's heritage and cultural identity through the development, preservation and presentation of Nova Scotia's cultural and natural heritage resources and institutions.
Our fourth goal is to deliver effective and accountable corporate support to government through records management, archival programs, protocol, youth services, policy and communications.
In support of our goals, the proposed budget for the department in the fiscal year 2001-02 is $39.456 million. This is about a $1.2 million increase over the year before.
Before commenting briefly about the many programs and services we will be undertaking in partnership and on behalf of our sectors, I would like to speak briefly about the performance and the importance of our tourism and culture sectors.
First let's take a look at the tourism industry. Nova Scotia has been enjoying a string of excellent tourism years. In 2000, tourism revenues surpassed the $1 billion mark for the fourth consecutive year. It came in at $1.25 billion with 2.1 million non-resident visitors. Keep in mind that when we talk about tourist revenue that 60 per cent of it is new money for Nova Scotia's economy. It counts as an export, helping Nova Scotia keep up its balance of payments in the global economy.
Let's not forget the jobs that it creates. Many of these jobs are important throughout Nova Scotia and I can tell you that my riding in particular is very dependent as well as I know the ridings of many of my colleagues on our side and as well as many colleagues throughout the House. I think that the member for Timberlea-Prospect and the member for Victoria are excellent examples of that. These are things that the members have brought up on many occasions on the floor of the House.
Tourism employed 35,000 Nova Scotians last year with a payroll of close to $500 million. Make no mistake, there are plenty of good jobs in the industry today; jobs that require professionalism to meet the standards our visitors expect and on a continual basis, our visitors expect more and more. That means that we have to come up with new and innovative ways each and every year, along with the industry, to meet some of those expectations.
Tourism in Nova Scotia has come such a long way in such a short time. At one time, as you know, it used to be thought of as a summertime industry. It has now grown into a diverse, attractive, year-round industry driven by our natural surroundings and relentlessly inventive entrepreneurs.
For the 2001 outlook, we are looking at having cautiously optimistic growth - that is cautiously optimistic from an analytical point of view. The Tourism Partnership Council is aiming for a 5 per cent improvement in revenues for the upcoming year for 2001. As you know, the Tourism Partnership Council was put in place under the previous government - and I want to commend the previous Minister of Economic Development and Tourism for taking that initiative. I think it is an initiative that has proven well during the past years and it continues to improve as the years progress.
Our cultural sector is also a significant economic growth engine in Nova Scotia. The business of culture is emerging as one of the fastest growing sectors in this province with an estimated value of approximately $800 million. Moreover, it is estimated that culture creates more than 29,000 direct and indirect jobs. As someone, Mr. Chairman, who has been involved in the cultural sector myself, along with my job as a teacher, I was very much involved since a young age in the cultural music industry and I can tell you that it is more than just a job for many of these people. It is a passion and one that is based on the history of their past, their family history and one that reflects a way of expression and one that I feel is extremely important. I believe that is why we often hear people in the cultural sector talk about it not being just a job but more as a passion.
On the department's initiatives, clearly, the development of communities across this province has been bolstered by the growth of our tourism and culture sectors. Both these sectors thrive because of the strong partnerships that are in place.
On the tourism side, we work through the Tourism Partnership Council, as I have mentioned. This council is a model of public-private partnership. Our government has now formalized this joint approach to tourism, development and marketing. On the council there are 14 industry people from across this province as well as two from the Department of Tourism and Culture.
The following are just some of the significant activities the council has undertaken recently. The first is a new strategy for tourism that builds on the priorities identified in the province's economic growth strategy. This strategy succeeds the 1996 version and this time combines marketing, product development and partnerships to strive for several goals.
The first is to grow revenues from the touring market. Another is to improve the quality of our tourism product which, as I mentioned before, is extremely important. A third is to build a 12 month season. A fourth is to develop viable niche markets. Another strategic goal is to improve transportation access. Last, but not least, the sixth goal is to improve the business environment for tourism.
I am sure we can talk on any one of those points for much of the two hours left today and I am sure my colleagues from both Parties will have very good questions on many of these points.
Many people have helped shape this document with their observations and insights. Now it is up to all of us to see that these goals are realized over the next four years. The council has been developing a product development plan that will ensure the experiences we take to market are experiences that visitors seek when they come to Nova Scotia. Consultations with the industry have been underway throughout the province with a final report expected shortly.
Of course, we have our annual 2001 marketing plan which focuses on core markets and beyond with flourishing sectors like golf, nature, the outdoors and more. As well, this new marketing plan offers programs geared specifically to creating a year-round tourism season. This is something that our government identified before becoming government as a major point in our blue book and now continues to be a major point for us as a government and for myself as a minister, along with staff and people in the industry.
[11:30 a.m.]
As one example, the council has just recently launched a spring campaign, a campaign which targets the Atlantic Canadian market. It is comprised of television advertising, direct mail and I believe it is about 300,000 households, Mr. Chairman, that have been targeted throughout Atlantic Canada. I believe 300,000 is the same number as our winter campaign also targeted through direct mail and the spring components of the department's Tourism Web site, as well. Our department has also invested in significant new investments to the province's Check In information and reservation service. Potential visitors, Mr. Chairman, using this system can now book their accommodations over the Internet and this is a major stride forward, not only for us as a province, but I believe on the national scene throughout Canada, as well.
There is also a lot of activity on the cultural and heritage sides of our department. For instance, the department has teamed up with members of the cultural and heritage communities to try to devise ways to make this dynamic sector grow even faster. At the moment, this partnership is working to implement the goals of the culture sector strategy, goals that include educating Nova Scotians about their culture and heritage, attracting more investment in the sector and increasing the sales of our arts and crafts. One thing that comes to mind, Mr. Chairman, when I even see the increasing sales of our arts and crafts is the export development program, which we put in place last year. I had the opportunity to visit the Cape Breton Centre for Craft and Design that was part of a $250,000 program which we introduced last year and one I felt was extremely important for the arts and crafts, as well as the entire cultural community.
Mr. Chairman, I can say, without a doubt, that it has made a difference there. This is a program which will take over the next eight to nine months and gives an opportunity for people across Cape Breton Island, including areas like Cape Breton North and Port Hawkesbury and Inverness to have the opportunity to sell their crafts through e-commerce. We are very fortunate that our federal colleagues also got involved in the program, as well as HRDC and, I believe, ECBC. So these are the types of initiatives that I feel, as minister, are important. The department feels they are important and they are the direction we are moving forward towards.
In support of these sectors, we have also made several significant investments last year, including funding support for Celtic Colours. In fact, Mr. Chairman, we invested in Celtic Colours $150,000 in last fall's international festival and $125,000 will go forward into this year's festival. This is something which even the Airport Authority in the Sydney area has recognized is important so that they have a long-term knowledge of what they will be getting for the festival.
I can tell you that on my recent trip to Scotland, with regard to speaking to many people and organizations over there, that Celtic Colours is recognized not only in our province and this country, it is also recognized overseas. It is certainly in line with what is happening at other events, such as Celtic Connections. We have had the opportunity of seeing many musicians from this side of the pond visit there as well, this year. So this new investment in Celtic Colours that we made last year, Mr. Chairman, continues and directly links to our commitment to support a year-round tourism industry, as well. It has certainly made a difference in October in helping to build on the Island's cultural strengths.
Community museums throughout the province are also working on new initiatives, Mr. Chairman, that will help to ensure their long-term sustainability, thanks to a new investment fund established in 2000. A guide to genealogical resources, a heritage in the schools programs, tour packages on heritage attractions, a collaborative acquisition strategy for museums, archival activity and a promotional brochure linking museums are just a few
examples of the projects underway. We are pleased to lend our support to projects that are contributing to the viability of rural Nova Scotian communities through the preservation of our rich heritage. Our community museums add tremendous value to the quality of life in our communities. They also generate employment in rural regions and help ensure that both residents and visitors alike can experience our rich cultural roots.
In fact, Mr. Chairman, I had the opportunity to visit many of our museum sites, both in the Nova Scotia Museum family and through the Community Museum Assistance Program last summer, as I visited places throughout Lunenburg, places in Yarmouth, throughout Cape Breton, places like Parrsboro and throughout the province. I can tell you that the volunteers that we have in many of those museums have also made a huge impact in those rural communities, along with the employment opportunities. Being that this is the Year of the Volunteer, I think that is important to put on the record, as they deserve a great amount of credit.
On the subject of museums, we made Highland Village, as well, a provincial museum site and this has resulted in a stronger museum presence on Cape Breton Island with a theme not already covered. Again, it is an investment that supports our government's commitment to build on Cape Breton's strengths. It is one I felt quite strong about, as we had 25 museum sites last year before the beginning of the year, before Highland Village became part of the museum family and with only one from Cape Breton, being Cosset House in the Sydney area. With the addition of Highland Village, it has certainly strengthened our museum presence in Cape Breton. I believe it is important as a centerpiece to be geographically located in the central part of Cape Breton in that it focuses now on a segment of our culture and heritage, especially with the Scots and Gaelic. We are taking many positive initiatives there, ones which I believe that the member for Victoria is very supportive of and one that I know he was very supportive of when he was in government in seeing them as part of the Nova Scotia Museum family. In fact, Mr. Chairman, I know that the community group which is running the board down there is very proactive and have been looking for this for a great number of years. It is certainly making a difference.
The 2001-02 budget priorities for the upcoming fiscal year, Mr. Chairman, I am going to touch on a few of these priorities for the upcoming year. On the tourism side, we are allotting almost $18.9 million to grow this vital sector. Among the many initiatives underway, we are making new investments in our Visitor Information Centres. I can tell you, if I heard anything from my colleagues in the Opposition last year it was with regard to Visitor Information Centres. I know and I would like to especially mention my critic on the NDP side last year and she is from Halifax Fairview. I can tell you, in fact, I believe one time she was asking me to go play the fiddle outside the Visitor Information Centres across the province to gain some extra revenue and she was certainly a proponent of seeing our Visitor Information Centres thrive and seeing our cultural community grow. I believe that is also important to mention in this.
This will allow, Mr. Chairman, for community centres to extend their operations and will encourage year-round service at provincial centres at various strategic locations across the province. This will grow the industry generally, while benefiting communities across the province. In fact, I believe not only do the community museums, which our funding goes to the regional tourism associations such as Tourism Cape Breton, but goes through the PEP program through Economic Development. As well, we have set aside an additional $100,000 to see those community Visitor Information Centres being able to expand and to operate their Visitor Information Centres this year.
Mr. Chairman, we will continue our investment in a pilot program to develop rural tourism this year, a program which we started last year, which helps tourism operators improve the quality and competitiveness of their products. It focuses on better use of information technology and market readiness on achieving the best practices and the best customer service as possible.
We will also invest just over $11 million on strategic support for the Tourism Partnership Council's 2001 marketing plan, which I referenced earlier. This high impact marketing campaign is already underway to promote Nova Scotia and our core and touring markets. Atlantic Canada, as I mentioned earlier, we targeted 300,000 households in our winter campaign and now have begun our spring campaign and we are looking forward to seeing some positive results from those campaigns.
Quebec, Mr. Chairman, which has been tapped into recently, during the last number of years and, again, I would like to acknowledge the work of the previous Minister of Tourism before our government because they did acknowledge that there was a need to do greater marketing in that market and, in fact, we saw initiatives like the French Doers and Dreamer's Guide, and if my French is correct, Du reve a l'aventure. So we have seen an increase in the Quebec market and that has made a difference in places like Argyle and Clare. I know in my own area, in Cheticamp, we have seen an increase in the number of tourists coming from Quebec and that has made a difference. Ici, on parle Francais, as well as the acknowledgement of the Acadian flags on our maps, has also made a difference and they are important. We will continue to work on ways to work with our Acadian communities on such issues.
In addition, in Ontario, which represents about 19 per cent of the market for Nova Scotia, and I realize that many of those are people who don't have any connections to Nova Scotia, but many do have connections with regard to family members, as well. It is important that we continue to encourage returning home for those people. In the northeastern United States, which I believe, Mr. Chairman, is a market which represents about 15 per cent of our tourism visitors and a market that surely has a lot of growth. I can tell you that one initiative in particular, the Boston tree lighting - which I had the opportunity to attend both last year and the year before - is significant and the marketing partnerships which we have down there
with regard to that celebration, certainly, the dollar value that we get on return for this province is simply unbelievable. It all relates back to the tragedy when back in, I believe it was 1912 or 1914, I will have to choose my history. Maybe there is a history teacher who knows better than I.
AN HON. MEMBER: It was 1917.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Sorry, December 6, 1917, the Mont Blanc and Imo, yes. We will also target our developing markets, Europe, the South Atlantic States and Western Canada, a portion of that significant marketing movement forward is done in partnership, Mr. Chairman, with our federal counterparts, as well as our Atlantic Canada colleagues, and that is through the Atlantic Canada Tourism Partnership. That is a $19.5 million partnership. It is one that we renewed our three year commitment last year when we had an announcement here in Halifax. That is providing us with the opportunity to focus on visitors not only along the northeastern United States and central Canada, but especially in the niche markets like Europe, because many of these visitors who come to visit our province come for the Atlantic Canada experience.
Offhand, Mr. Chairman, I cannot recall without taking a look in my book, our portion for that, but we see quite a significant return on that and, hopefully, we can see continuing partnerships like that with our federal counterparts. As well, it will promote the promotions in the South Atlantic States and western Canada. It is going to build on the winter seasons and will promote strategic niche markets. If you take a look at our winter package this year, you will see things such as skiing, you will see things such as our wide sporting organizations across this province. In fact, I had the opportunity to visit the member for Cape Breton East's riding a couple of weeks ago for the Vince Ryan Memorial Tournament, a tournament which takes over 100 teams into it, which ties in directly to our destination marketing program, which is done through Tourism Cape Breton and one which I hear brings in about $3.5 million to the economy in that area. That is quite significant.
These are the types of things that we are including in our winter seasons promotions, not only skiing, whether it is downhill or cross-country, but other initiatives which include areas like the South Shore, which has been very proactive in their winter season promotions and, in fact, we included them this year in our promotional program where we targeted the 300,000 households.
The niche products include the outdoors and nature, golf and we have certainly seen the difference that our golfing promotions have made. We are fortunate to have golf courses like Highland Links, like the golf course in Baddeck, along with numerous others throughout this province. We have seen the difference that a golf market can make with marketing like the fabulous foursome and the difference that is making in those particular areas.
Meetings and conventions and incentive travel. A major feature of this marketing, Mr. Chairman, is in strategic partnerships with the private sector. In fact, I was taking a look at our document, which is Partnership Opportunities 2001, which was put out in the fall before estimates. I was looking at all the availability of partnerships for the private sector. I believe that there are many opportunities, whether you live in a small community in rural Nova Scotia or whether you live in downtown Halifax, for those partnerships, partnerships which can get you into markets, whether it is in Quebec or Ontario and you can strategically promote your own business to do so.
I believe that the Tourism Partnership Council has resulted in a lot of these opportunities. They recognize that these opportunities are important and my staff, as well, does. We believe that with these marketing opportunities, it allows us to not only make investments in strategic marketing opportunities, but as well to leverage dollars, not only public dollars from the public purse, provincially, as well, private dollars and federal dollars. We look at partnerships that we have with ECBC and many markets, including the Boston area.
Another priority on the tourism side is to finalize negotiations on a private sector management contract for operation of Nova Scotia's Signature Resorts. I know that that is of quite some significance. It is one that has drawn the interest of, I know, my colleague, the member for Guysborough-Port Hawkesbury, as we have the Liscombe Lodge in his area. We have one in Digby, Digby Pines, my colleague, the Minister of Economic Development's riding and, of course, we have one which is in the member for Victoria's riding and which also has an impact on my riding, being that it is in the northern part of Cape Breton. So this is not a process which I take lightly and it is certainly one that we want to ensure that we get the best possible deal for Nova Scotians.
Our goal is to secure an agreement that brings significant returns to the province, to the resort communities and to our tourism industry. I know that industry groups like TIANS, the Tourism Industry Association of Nova Scotia, along with the Partnership Council and the community groups and municipalities in those areas have certainly lent their voice. There was some question last year, Mr. Chairman, and I would like to put it on the record for clarity that we don't own Keltic Lodge. In fact, it is the federal government that owns Keltic Lodge, although we have been operating it for a great number of years. We do own Digby Pines and Liscombe Lodge and we do have permission from the federal government to go into the private sector management contract. I feel it is important to put it on the record. I am sure my colleague, the member for Victoria, will be asking that very question today, as it was raised at an earlier time and I would like to clarify that.
Mr. Chairman, I am sure you will agree that Nova Scotia enjoys a wealth and diversity of culture as a result of many years of hard work by people in their communities and in the industry. There is an old saying in my area, my uncle actually said it at one time to me
and he was speaking about music, but he said, we stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. I certainly agree with that statement, as a strong cultural industry for this province can lead to many other opportunities, not only for our children and the youth of this province, but also for attracting businesses to this province and for generally providing a better life for Nova Scotians. I feel that that is the most important aspect of my portfolio, seeing that the life of Nova Scotians is that much better with each new year.
One key priority on the cultural side of our department is to make sure that all Nova Scotia regions have a say in the cultural activities that matter most to them. We also aim to partner with the culture sector's leaders to further develop economic opportunities for cultural industries. As someone who is involved, again, Mr. Chairman, in the music industry, I see that as a prime example. My department's budget for the cultural sector is about $5.87 million. Additionally, the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia will receive almost $1.16 million.
Mr. Chairman, that is not only being used here, but also the Art Gallery has proceeded in the last number of years in looking at expanding their operations with regard to ensuring that Nova Scotians in other parts of the province have an opportunity. With regard to Cape Breton, there was a decision made that the University College of Cape Breton had the facility there. So they began looking at the western gallery as an opportunity in Yarmouth and it is one that I believe is important in that particular area. It is important that our students - and I know the member for Timberlea-Prospect would certainly agree - have an opportunity to see various aspects of culture and not only those maybe in their own community, but also providing an opportunity for interest that they may have, especially with regard to art.
In the coming year the department will invest strategically in community development. We will assist Nova Scotians in communities throughout the province in developing, preserving and promoting the arts and the cultural activities. Enhanced focus will be directed to strengthening regional delivery of cultural initiatives that support community priorities. We will provide support through regional arts councils and we will direct additional efforts and resources to support arts education at the regional and community level.
In fact, Mr. Chairman, we are taking a very close look at our arts councils throughout this province. They do receive some operational funding, a tradition in past years, but we also have some money set aside this year for strategic investments in our communities throughout this province with special emphasis on these regional arts councils in rural Nova Scotia to ensure that they have additional opportunities to take part. We have made that known to these arts councils and from what I have heard thus far, they are not only appreciative, but they see this as an opportunity to provide many programs which they have not been able to provide as these programs often cost dollars and you need expertise coming in to help you with those programs. We also renewed our commitment to better address traditional and to
serve cultural communities such as Black, Mi'kmaq and Gaelic as well as our Acadian. There is continued commitment from the Nova Scotia Arts Council to stimulate arts and cultural activity. Mr. Chairman, if I might ask, how much time do I have left?
MR. CHAIRMAN: In your allotment you have up to a total of one hour, but you began at 11:19 a.m., you have been 35 minutes so far.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I don't have much left. I would like to get some of these things on the record though, Mr. Chairman, as I do feel it is important to ensure that they are on the record. Are you taking notes? (Interruption) It wouldn't have the same effect though and, as well, the additional comments I have made, Mr. Chairman, I am sure my colleague, the member for Halifax Atlantic, would deeply regret it if I didn't at least touch on some of these items. (Interruption) Thank you very much, the member for Sackville-Cobequid, I have almost completed, I want to let you know.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: We have also renewed again our commitment and that is one of the reasons - there is an old saying, it is not in my notes here, but there is an old saying as well, Mr. Chairman, that a culture without a language is a culture without a soul and I am just going to take 30 seconds to put this on the record, 30 seconds, I will touch on that and I will use my own background culture as an example.
In the early 20th Century we had about 100,000 Gaelic speakers in this province. That is probably down to about between 1,000 and 2,000 now. That is why I feel the Gaelic art is extremely important. It is important to see where we stand and it is important to put a Gaelic policy in place. That is not only important for that particular culture, I think it is important for us to take a look at language development in all other cultures and given our resources, we can only do so much at one time, but I think it is important that we continue and we will continue to work with our Mi'kmaq communities as well as our Black communities. I know our chairman is very much aware of that, and in fact, I have had the opportunity to visit the Black Cultural Centre.
There are things which we have to work on with regard to all of those types of cultures as well as many others and we will continue to do so. As well, we will provide new investment in publishing, music, crafts and design. Nova Scotia's cultural community is already benefiting from an export development program, as I mentioned last year, that focuses resources to deliver a new investment program pilot. The program is designed to open new markets and increase sales for cultural producers and distributors. The Cape Breton Magazine, the Black Cultural Network, the Western Valley Development Authority, Mermaid Theatre and Festival Antigonish, are among those that receive support for exciting new initiatives that will create awareness and generate export sales. In fact, I believe it was
Festival Antigonish and the Ship's Company Theatre which went into partnership to focus on the export program and to advertise for their particular theatres.
We are also establishing a new cultural industry section focused on development of cultural businesses. This will involve establishing a task force with cultural businesses to develop and enhance partnerships and strategic directions for Nova Scotia's cultural industries. In partnership with Nova Scotia's cultural sector we will review and analyze cultural policy to enhance the business environment for industry growth and investment.
We have also identified, Mr. Chairman, in heritage a number of priorities. Nova Scotians are fortunate to have museums that do an excellent job of preserving and promoting our unique heritage. One that I think should be mentioned is Sherbrooke Village which I had the opportunity to visit last summer. I can tell you we do not realize what we have in this province. We have opportunities in our heritage society which bar none across this country. We can see that, in particular, in that museum in Sherbrooke. It offers an experience to a visitor which is not something taken in with buildings and made to present heritage. That is actual heritage that has been there for a great many years and will continue to be there as we preserve it.
The quality of our provincial and community museums is reflected in the growing numbers of visitors each and every year. As mentioned earlier, the coming year will mark the first full year of operation of the Highland Village in Iona. Our budget for museums and heritage services is $9.19 million. That allows us to operate 26 provincial museums; to support heritage properties and 63 community museums; to manage hundreds of thousands of artifacts and specimens; and to provide professional advice and research on our heritage. In our heritage planning this year we will renew our commitment to helping rural communities by assisting community museums and by making them more self-reliant through a strategic investment fund.
I know this is a question that my colleague in the House, the member for Halifax Atlantic, brought up and I was listening actually very carefully when he did bring it up. I believe he brought it up when I didn't have the opportunity to respond to his question one day, but I will certainly respond to it today. The intent of this new strategic investment program is to encourage community museums to partner with other organizations such as the private sector, not-for-profit groups, and municipal governments, to build relationships for sustainable economic development in rural Nova Scotia. As a result of partnerships formed, more than 40 museums and archives are participating in various projects funded through the program during the year 2000.
For the Mi'kmaq people we are committed to repatriating cultural artifacts and providing a high quality museum presence, both aspects which we are working on now as we speak closely with our Mi'kmaq communities throughout this province, and we know that
they are certainly interested in taking a look at what museum presence they have in the province and we are committed to working on that with them along with the federal government. We also partner with communities in the Joggins area to work towards the designation of the fossil cliffs as a world heritage site and demonstrate that heritage can be preserved and interpreted for economic and social benefit without the establishment of museum buildings and collections.
With respect to the Nova Scotia Archives and Records Management, we will continue to expand and enhance public access to archival holdings and services, to increase in content an application of technology and we will improve the delivery of on-site public services through consolidation of reference activities, streamline registration and the introduction of a storefront community access site.
Mr. Chairman, in closing, I hope my remarks have given you a sense of the scope of activities our department is undertaking to develop, preserve and promote tourism, culture and heritage. As noted in my introduction, our aim is to stimulate economic growth, develop sustainable communities and provide for stewardship of our natural and cultural heritage for the benefit of all Nova Scotians. I believe the social aspect of that should be highlighted as I feel that it is extremely important. I know that the previous critic from the NDP, if anything, felt that that was most important. We said we would work with our partners throughout tourism, heritage and culture in this province, recognizing these sectors are driving forces behind the province's economic growth. Our new investments support that commitment and our investments are creating opportunities here at home.
Finally, I am going to touch on the two other aspects of my portfolio, one being NSLC and the number of initiatives. I am just going to touch on the agency stores, Mr. Chairman, which we are now seeing in the process taking place throughout this province with regard to the eight communities, including places like Advocate, Bass River, Freeport, the French Shore and Iona area, providing those communities the opportunity to have a site in those areas, to attract visitors and so that they will be closer to an outlet. Our warehouse and distribution, our initiative, Mr. Chairman, is also to have a public call for proposals which will be happening this spring, very shortly in fact. Our licensee service, which we simply collect the 9.3 per cent, directly affects my colleague's portfolio in the House and not my own with regard to cutting that in half and a new governance model.
As well, I just want to touch on a new portion of my portfolio - which I seem to be missing my notes on at this very second - with regard to Sport and Recreation. I had some comments to make and now I seem to be at a loss as to where I put them, Mr. Chairman, but I am sure the member for Halifax Atlantic is very disappointed that I don't have them with me, but I will just touch on that for a moment. In fact, during the past eight weeks I have had the opportunity to take on the Sport and Recreation Commission, one which the member, my colleague, the honourable Minister of Education, was responsible for. We have seen an
increased commitment to that commission and an increased commitment to areas such as the RFP as well as a physical activity strategy.
The physical activity strategy, Mr. Chairman, is one that I am quite excited about. It is one that we are hoping to leverage additional federal dollars into that. In fact, I met with the federal minister, Minister Coderre, this week to discuss that very strategy and he also had the opportunity to talk to many of our sports organizations across this province the day before yesterday at a function. I believe that there is a need for this type of strategy. It will benefit students and the people in general across this province. That will be coming into effect probably in early fall and we will be going out to communities and municipalities as we develop that strategy.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I will close my remarks. I know we are awaiting questions now, I believe from members of the NDP, and I look forward to their comments and I will answer the questions to the best of my ability and should I not have an answer, I will ask my very capable staff here to assist me as there may be some very specific questions and I may not have the information at hand.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I just wish to advise members of the committee we have one hour and 25 minutes remaining in our time for the 40 hour allotment for debate on estimates. I was wondering if the two caucuses wish to share the time equally or do you wish to have your full one hour to the NDP caucus and the last 20-odd minutes for . . .
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Half and half.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Half and half.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Why don't you let me start.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, and I also wish to advise we need about two minutes in regard to the conclusion to do the wrap-up of resolutions. So opening questions for the NDP caucus would be the honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.
The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Mr. Chairman, let me make it clear to the minister and his staff that I don't think anybody around this table wants to diminish what he has to say about his portfolio at all. We think it is very important and I wish we had lots of time to deal with it but, unfortunately, as he understands, we deal with estimates alphabetically and his is at the end. We only have a certain amount of time to deal with it and so that is why some of us raised the issue that, you know, by making a statement that is basically contained in the budget books and in other government publications, it is just cutting into our opportunity to
ask some questions and to pull out, and give you an opportunity to explain some of the issues that people out there across the province, some things that people are concerned about. So I just wanted to make that clear.
I just want to ask, to start off here, a couple of questions under the heading of Culture. I did ask some questions in the House last week and, unfortunately, the minister wasn't able to be there. I asked them anyway. I mean I only get the opportunity to ask questions every once in awhile these days so I have to take the opportunity or I will get bumped completely off the table, but the acting minister and whoever else answered did make commitments to get answers back to me about, for example, McCullough House, its status, the Nova Scotia Film Development Corporation and some questions that I asked about the museums' grants. So I would ask the minister if he would please try to revisit that issue and maybe he has the information to give me and he could perhaps table that. That would be great.
I want to ask about the Arts Council, in particular. The minister referred in a number of cases in his opening statement to the previous NDP critic, the member for Halifax Fairview, Eileen O'Connell, and her passion for a number of these issues. I appreciate the minister mentioning her in such a positive way. One of the things that Eileen and others within the New Democratic Party, and certainly in the arts and culture community in Nova Scotia, worked long and hard for is getting the Arts Council established. The Arts Council was set up to be an arm's-length body from government to deal with the allocation of funds through a proper peer review procedure to distribute funds to different artists and organizations.
They presented a business plan to the government which included things like the artists in the community program. They again have had to put that program off because their funding has continued to be cut. It was cut by 15 per cent last year, again almost 2 per cent this year, and 2 per cent the year before that. It is making it very difficult for them to operate and I want to ask the minister, my concern is that there are two things going on. One is that their ability to operate is being hampered. Their ability to be effective and to deal with the province and to take arts and culture into the communities is being affected. At the same time, the government's discretionary grants seem to be increasing in this area and I am concerned that the integrity of the Arts Council is in jeopardy.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I would like to thank the member for Halifax Atlantic for that question. The Arts Council does play a very important role in this province. I want to clarify one thing. Last year, they did take a significant cut, 15 per cent. I realize that was not easy and we had some tough decisions to make and that was one of them. This year with the 2 per cent reduction, in fact, the $25,000 referred to in that 2 per cent is actually the Portia White prize. Really it is not affecting, in essence, their budget this year, that $25,000 which simply stayed at our department. So, in fact, they were spending that $25,000 anyway.
So it shouldn't have affected their programs, the 2 per cent reduction this year. So I want to clarify that and put that on the record.
With regard to the programming, I can tell you that as someone who has actually put an application in, at one point, to the Arts Council, I do believe that their peer assessment is valuable and I do believe that they play an important role. With regard to the programming dollars, again, as I said, I am sure there are certain programs they would like to move into and that is the decision they have to make within the dollars that they get this year, but we were able to keep it at par with what they had last year and I think that was extremely important.
With respect to having flexibility, and I guess that's the best word for it because the member mentioned it. I think that putting additional dollars - don't forget that some of the programs that we are putting dollars into this year still affect many of those communities throughout the province and still affect many of those, whether an artist or a musician. So if it is an export development program, that's important. If it's the money that we set aside for cultural industries and music and a number of other areas, I believe that is important. They can take part in those types of initiatives. As well, I believe that the money was set aside for the local Arts Councils and there is $150,000 there for across the province.
So with respect to these particular Arts Councils, they have maintained, but Arts Councils, in general, around this province will actually benefit to a greater degree this year because of additional funding redirected. I do understand that this was a comment raised, actually, by my critic last year from the NDP and she, quite passionately, made a very good case for the Arts Council. I do believe that they play a significant role. In fact, we met with the regional Arts Councils from the other Atlantic Provinces in P.E.I. during the East Coast Music Awards and had some very good discussions.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to go too far down the road here because we will get into a debate and we will eat up everybody's time and we can't do that - maybe some other forum. But the point is that the Arts Council was set up to be arm's length, to take the politics, or the perception of politics out of the granting of very scarce resources around the province and, you know, this flexibility the minister talks about, is in fact going backwards, going back to the way it used to be. That's a problem; that's a concern.
I think the minister, with respect to the ability of the Arts Council to operate and carry forward with its programs, will agree that a lot was done last year when the big cut, the 15 per cent, by the council to try to find money so that the cut wouldn't be passed on directly to organizations. But it gets increasingly difficult as their reserve fund has been eaten up and the ability to maintain their programs is getting increasingly difficult. That's not news to him. He has heard it from them and I just wish he would pay attention to that because the Arts Council was set up for a reason and I think we have to maintain the integrity of that.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: If I might just make one brief comment. In fact, I do realize and our acting executive director for Culture actually formerly worked for the Arts Council. I do agree that the peer assessment is extremely important and all that, and the fact that it does take out even the optics of whether it is a minister or staff or whatever or Party politics. I know that the various people involved in those sectors, whether it is for a touring grant, whether it is for a creative grant, feel that that process should be maintained and it is one that has worked well. I will certainly take into consideration the comments.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: I did raise the issue in the Legislature about the operating grants to the community museums being cut by 2 per cent and the impact that that would have and that that money, or a comparable amount, has been shifted over into a strategic investment fund, which, quite frankly, gives the department and the local MLAs more flexibility, but it reduces the capacity of those community museums to do what it is that they do already on a shoestring budget with a great deal of volunteer hours and so on. That causes me some considerable concerns. The minister talked about this as being a way to encourage partnerships, encouraging the museums to go into private-sector partnerships as a way of raising funds.
I might suggest that that objective could be achieved in a different way, that you maintain the operating budget - it is not a whole lot of money - at what it was and that you use the resources of the department to work with the community museums to develop the strategic partnerships. In other words, instead of affecting their ability to operate on a daily basis, instead of insisting that they go out and do basic fundraising or try to initiate these partnerships, let them do what they are doing and have the department staff dedicate some of its time and energy towards these strategic partnerships. How would the minister respond to that?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: During the budget process, in making some of the decisions that we made - and as I was looking at the community museums, I believe it is 63 community museums we have across the province. The Strategic Development Fund, which we set up, was set up to give the opportunity for some of these museums and the operational money is very important. We felt that the 2 per cent reduction on the museums, they would be able to handle that 2 per cent. In fact, what we ensured though is that many of these museums have gone up - you raise your level of operating assistance up to a certain point in this program. The eight museums that just entered last year, because they had not risen to that level to the same extent as our other 55, we ensured, actually, that their funding actually went up. I will give you a few examples. One is the Charles MacDonald Concrete House, Cape Breton Centre for Heritage Signs, the Age of Sail Museum. So, in fact, some of those went up.
The total budget for community museums went up and we did make the decision that we would have that fund. I think there is even one in my own area - the Inverness Miner's Museum - where there was a particular project they wanted to do, which would help to expand the museum, which would help to allow them to operate a specific program which they couldn't operate in the past in their current operating budget. Now the benefit - and this was a decision that I had to make, along with staff - of having this strategic fund allowed them not only to leverage additional dollars, but to do a program which they weren't able to do under their current operating budget. Even with that 2 per cent reduction, the benefit that they have experienced, and again we could have a great deal of discussion with regard to whether that 2 per cent made a difference or not. Certainly there would be additional decisions those community museums would have to make, but I believe the benefits outweighed.
If you look at where the strategic development fund was spent last year, you will see that it wasn't strategically spent in certain ridings or anything of that such. In fact, a portion of that program was done through the Federation of Nova Scotia Heritage, which benefited the entire province.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: I wish, like I said before, we had more time to discuss these issues and a number of other points in more detail, but we are limited by time. I want to ask one last question and that is about the whole issue of the development of new media in the Province of Nova Scotia. Other jurisdictions in the country have developed a tax credit regime the same as the film tax credit for developing and promoting new media. I am wondering where the Province of Nova Scotia is on that issue.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: As you know, the Film Development Corporation comes under my colleague, the Minister of Economic Development. With regard to new media, we have a committee set up, which includes members of my staff along with Economic Development, to take a look at that very thing and how we move forward. There are many ideas out there. I guess the trickiest thing to do is to ensure that you spend your money or you direct the resources in the appropriate manner. We are going to not only be having these discussions with Economic Development but talking to the sector. We are going to be doing that as well while we talk. We have a new fund this year for the cultural industries, and we will be taking a look at that very thing. It is something that has been brought up to me on many occasions, and it is something that we are going to have to look at and build upon, and we are going to do that.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Mr. Chairman, I will pass it on to my colleague, the member for Timberlea-Prospect. Thank you to the minister and his staff.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Timberlea Prospect.
MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, if you can tell me when 12:45 p.m. arrives, that will be the time, if the good member for Victoria has done the math correctly, I think we have divided the time at that time. (Interruptions)
Can we talk about a couple of promotions that are important, I know, to your department, and that, of course, is making Nova Scotia a golf destination. As you are aware, Mr. Minister, my wife has had some experience with regard to tourism on her native Prince Edward Island. P.E.I. has served as an example to attract target audiences, I believe that is the terminology these days. Of course, P.E.I. is a golf destination, and has been augmented because of some of the recent events they have had there, and the success of their own golfers who have gone on to the world stage and done extremely well. I notice that on Page 160 of the Supplement to the Public Accounts there is a line item there for Golf Nova Scotia for $62,325. Can you talk to these two items, if you wouldn't mind, the strategy for attracting golfers to this province; and secondly, that particular Golf Nova Scotia, and what that involved?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The $62,000 you referred to, first of all, refers to the Golf Guide that we have, which includes the golf courses from across the province and includes the golf courses like Bell Bay and Highland Links and a number of others. In addition to that, the trade shows which take place that Golf Nova Scotia takes part in, along with Golf Atlantic, there is some connection there as well with regard to those dollars. I can get you the specifics for those, that is no problem. I will send you over a copy of the guide as well for your nightly reading.
MR. ESTABROOKS: As long as it has lots of pictures. The strategy, Mr. Minister, and the Prince Edward Island example.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: We work very closely, in fact, with Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick on some of these initiatives. That is where Golf Atlantic comes into play. A member of my staff, Bob Book provides our expertise in that field. It is something we are focusing on more and more in our marketing. The guide is an excellent example of that. Should a visitor contact our Check In service, reservation, and during a discussion even mention that they are interested in golf, we will provide them with a guide to provide them with the opportunity. I think of things like the Wayne Gretzky Tournament last year which occurred. I believe this year it is in Bell Bay.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Yes, it is.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: We are constantly trying to include events such as that, with regard to promoting the golf product. I know that in my own area I am very interested in golf, in Cheticamp as well, and the Fabulous Foursome and the partnerships we have with the Fabulous Foursome. I am most willing to provide the additional background to the $62,000, for a better breakup of that. I will also provide a guide to the member.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Maritime Golf Car - these items always intrigue me and I always start out estimates with them. Thank God you just didn't order a lot of coffee, so we won't go to this one. Maritime Golf Car, Page 161. The Transportation and Public Works Minister assures me we are out of the golfing business. Can you explain that amount of money for me, please?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The member's question is quite right, I did hear the Minister of Transportation and Public Works indicate that. In fact, that is for equipment used at our resort, Keltic Lodge. In fact, our staff use it to go from cottage to cottage for house cleaning and those types of activities. Mainly those golf carts are used on properties for that very reason. The golf course there is operated by the federal government.
MR. ESTABROOKS: And they get good mileage, right?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: They get great mileage, and they are a great bang for your buck.
MR. ESTABROOKS: I make no apologies for these, they are the sorts of things that twinge my interest. Before I move on to a couple of more global issues, if I can put it that way, the National Park Service, Page 161. The National Park Service, Boston National Historic Park. Anything that has Boston in it, as you well know, attracts my attention. Could you explain that amount? I think the chairman is interested in this item, too.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: That particular expenditure had to deal with the CAT promotion, and with expenses incurred due to the fact that the CAT was docked at that
national waterfront apparently. The previous minister could probably better answer that question actually, since it was a promotion done by the previous government. Apparently, it is for the use of that particular area and the services available along that dock site, and I can get additional information on that for the member. (Interruption) It was docked in Boston.
[12:30 p.m.]
MR. ESTABROOKS: Boston Harbour.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Boston Harbour, yes. So it was for the services and for the site.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Because my first reaction was - I know the traditional Christmas tree gift and so on, and you know how this particular member loves a Friday afternoon headline - a $12,000 Christmas tree, but that is not the case?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: No. This had to do with a promotion in . . .
MR. ESTABROOKS: Darn. What will Paul Withers do without me today?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: . . . May 1999.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Perhaps the former Minister of Finance could better answer the question.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Okay. If I may, I would like to talk about a number of things in terms of the strategies of attracting visitors to our province. The tours that come to the province and the problem with tour buses, tearing the h-e-l-l - am I allowed to spell it out or can I use it? - out of our roads is a real problem. My question comes down to the fact that, as you are well aware, there are a number of prominent tourist destinations that are highly promoted across . . .
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Peggy's Cove.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Yes, Peggy's Cove, you know where I am going. I heard today during estimates - estimates can be productive - and I assume you had something to do with this, the Swissair memorial in The Whalesback. I don't know if the member for Chester-St. Margaret's is aware that the parking lot is going to be extended to 20 parking spaces as opposed to six. I thank the member for Chester-St. Margaret's and the minister involved. Those tour buses, however, and the promotion of them and the destination that they are headed for - and I ask this with somewhat a tongue in cheek - but when the Minister of Transportation looks to prioritize roadwork, whether we look at the fabulous Cabot Trail or whether we look at the Lighthouse Route, these are highly promoted tourist destinations.
As the minister, can you assure us and me as the member for Timberlea-Prospect, that you step up to the Minister of Transportation and Public Works and say, let's not forget those destinations, because they are important? You know where I am going with this, if you could respond I would appreciate it.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The Minister of Transportation, I can tell you, is very much aware. We have had many discussions on this very issue. We have talked about such roads as the one going to Peggy's Cove, the Cabot Trail - which I know the member for
Victoria is very interested in and he has brought up that question on many occasions. Indeed there is a recognition. I don't have examples here today to give you. I guess there was a recognition last year that the Cabot Trail needed some paving, for instance. The bad section started in the member for Victoria's riding and carried over into Inverness County. I believe there was some paving in your area last year on the way to Peggy's Cove and there hasn't been in Lunenburg West . . .
MR. ESTABROOKS: Don't worry about him, he will get his chance later.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: He will have his chance, but I can tell you there is a strong working relationship with regard to signage and there is a strong working relationship even - I have even gone so far, which I feel is important - with such things as line painting and making sure the key areas that are tourism destinations for our visitors are done as early as possible. It is not always a huge expenditure - it is an expenditure we are making anyway, but to take a look at those particular places like Peggy's Cove, the Cabot Trail and to try to get the work done earlier so that visitors will be treated to a better visit.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Okay. Thank you for that and I assure you that is something I know the member for Victoria or the member for Lunenburg West or anyone who is in these highly promoted tourist destination areas is going to continue to ask you to use your influence making those roads a priority.
If we could, I would like to turn to the cruise line business.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: What line?
MR. ESTABROOKS: Cruise line. Ships and the docking and how they come in here and then they have to get on the buses. Can you tell me, statistically, how many cruise ships arrive? I am looking particularly at Halifax. These aren't available, I know, in this sort of format. I don't mean to be overly specific, but I would assume that this is another one of the targeted audiences that we are looking at for business in our province. The cruise companies are interested in coming to Nova Scotia, again, to be able to visit certain highly promoted destinations. I am interested in the number of cruise ships that we are expecting this year, but not just the cruise ships that come to Halifax.
That again is another concern. I have heard from other areas that say it is all about Halifax, it is always all about Halifax, it is always about Peggy's Cove and cruise ships aren't in the Shelburne Harbour; maybe for docking reasons and whatever else. But, again, it is a targeted audience. I would like to know how many cruise ships we can expect this year and how many of them are not just stopping in Halifax.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I can tell the member that the Halifax number is around 171, which is about a 20 to 30 per cent increase over last year. In Sydney, I don't have the figure here. There is an increase and I will get the figure for you. The Atlantic Canada Cruise Association works with the entire province, so you are seeing places like Digby, Pictou, I believe Baddeck had a small cruise ship come into port last year, but there are some difficulties they face with regard to docking and the depth of the water, so there are only particular sized ships that can go to those ports.
We continue to work closely with the Atlantic Canada Cruise Association on such things as trade and promotions and there has been a significant growth in the cruise line business in the past number of years, and I think that in large part that has to do with the association. We are also seeing more smaller communities having the opportunity to host ships. The member for Victoria could probably correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it was one or two ships that went into Baddeck last year and I stand to be corrected on that. I believe it is a low range in the Pictou area, one or two this year, two or three, but I will get the numbers for the member and I will forward them to his office.
I can tell you it certainly made a difference in Sydney not only with respect to some of the local businesses, but a lot of crafts and tradespeople had the opportunity to sell their crafts along the wharf and have a presence there. I saw someone here today - Barbara Shaw - who is very much involved in that. We are seeing people getting involved to a greater extent and greater opportunities for the province.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you. The last targeted audience I would like to mention is rather sensitive with me personally. I am interested in your department's strategy, if it has one - if it doesn't, I will congratulate you for not having one - I don't see a factor of attracting tourists to this province of coming here for the casino. That is a personal choice on my behalf, I have strong opinions about it. However, many of the members present I think would agree, most cruise ships provide the opportunity for people on the ships anyway. I am also looking at the fact that it is one of the investments that, for right or wrong reasons, was made in the past and I am interested in whether your department promotes this province in destinations in this province with a casino gambling hook, if I can use that term.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: We do have partnerships with Halifax and in those promotions, the casino does have some play in there. It is listed as one of our opportunities in our promotions for our visitors. It is not something we focus on. Generally, any marketing of that type is directed at Atlantic Canadians. You are only going to be enticing visitors, generally, from Atlantic Canada.
What we try to focus on in our marketing is more the experience of the entire province, whether it is the nature trails or whether it is the outdoor activities and whatever it might be. That is one component but it is not something that we focus on. You may see it pop up during our promotions, but it is definitely not a focus. The promotion of such things as the casino and entertainment are things that I think we would be a bit remiss if we didn't include them. At the same time, I think there is a responsibility on our part to ensure that we don't have people coming here to Nova Scotia simply because we have a casino. I think that is important.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you. I would like, if possible - I would assume that there are follow-up statistics for why people visit this province. I am editorializing, but the huge majority of people who come to Canada's Ocean Playground are coming here for some of the things connected with our heritage, our scenery and various other things that are intrinsic to areas outside of the city - Halifax or Sydney, or whatever. I am quite confident the answer is yes, there are follow-up studies for why people do come to this province and I am wondering if that would be available.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes, in fact it is. In 2000, we just completed an exit survey. That information is available and we feel - the last survey, I believe, was done in 1996. It is very comprehensive and includes the reason people come here to the province and obviously the touring component of that is the thing with Canada's Ocean Playground. The exit survey will provide us with information. Not only us, but also the partnership council as we establish the marketing program for next year, that will be taken into account.
As far as the expenditure on that, the exit survey expenditure was roughly $60,000 to do, which is an additional $60,000 we will have this year for other promotions. I will forward that to your office.
MR. ESTABROOKS: I appreciate that. Before I turn the questions over to the Liberal caucus, I would like to, if I may, thank your staff and the minister personally for the co-operation that you showed when we had the opportunity to send young people to Switzerland, Southern France, the Riviera - I couldn't get to go. I couldn't swing it. These young people had the opportunity . . .
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I couldn't either.
MR. ESTABROOKS: We won't talk about trips, will we? I would like to thank the staff for the co-operation they showed and the appropriate recognition these young people received as they and their families were involved with Swissair, the gifts that were provided by the Department of Tourism were very well received. Many of those families came over again in September and I pass my thanks on to your staff and I thank you for your time. Thank you, Mr. Minister.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Thank you very much.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Time has now been passed over to the Liberal caucus. We have approximately 45 minutes remaining in our time here this afternoon.
The honourable member for Lunenburg West
MR. JOHN CHATAWAY: Mr. Chairman, on a point of privilege. I'm not sure of the proper form, but I just wanted to correct a statement made by Mr. Estabrooks. When he mentioned that the person who represents Lunenburg West and himself, of course, are worried about the road being paved there, what we are talking about - Peggy's Cove - is in my riding and I certainly support improving the roads. As we all know, I don't have to go into long cases about roads in Nova Scotia. In fact, the people along there, at least they told me in the Chester-St. Margaret's area that they consider that to be the busiest secondary road in Nova Scotia. They have told it many times to me and they have told it to many people, but basically, of course, when we talk about fixing up the roads, we talk about safety. An important thing, when we make road repairs, is making them safer and that is certainly a point.
The other thing is, that area that Mr. Estabrooks described is a very wonderful area; one of the most important things is its distinct grounds and things like that so you have to be very careful when making repairs to make sure that is maintained. In that case, we are certainly looking in that regard. I just thought if you maybe made a mistake that I wasn't interested, I certainly am and I think many people are interested to what he well described of that area. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you to the honourable member.
The honourable member for Lunenburg West.
MR. DONALD DOWNE: I just want to say, Mr. Minister, I realize the importance of the portfolios you have and realizing we only had 2 hours and 10 minutes to do your whole estimates, taking a whole hour of that yourself, . . .
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Forty-six minutes.
MR. DOWNE: . . . I thought it was a little unreasonable, considering there are two other caucuses that wanted to share question time. I will say that I was disappointed in that. Not that what you are saying isn't important, it is just that in light of why we are here, I felt that taking almost 50 per cent of the time we had was almost a little unfair. I thought you were a little above that, actually.
My questions to you deal with the cultural side. The cultural communities seem to be concerned with the budget itself. There have been some decreases in allocations in their areas. In fact, cultural expenditure is down about 0.9 per cent. My question is, why have you taken cuts two years in a row on the cultural side of the portfolio?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I am sorry, could you just repeat the very last . . .
MR. DOWNE: Why have you taken cuts in the cultural side two years in a row?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I think one important thing to mention, actually, if you look at Culture, my budget has actually increased by $61,000. Some of the figures which may be floating around would include the Film Development Corporation, which doesn't come under my portfolio. So the industry itself is including that component. I think that is important to keep in mind because, in fact, the number has gone up in my department. The minister responsible for the Film Development Corporation could better answer that component of it. I think they took a reduction in that of 15 per cent and that is where you would see a difference. In my portfolio, it has gone up from $5.808 million to $5,869,800.
MR. DOWNE: The Film Development Corporation is down 15 per cent as I understand it. Why has the budget been cut in that part of the . . .
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: It doesn't come under my portfolio and the minister responsible could better answer that particular question. I would be glad to pass the question on to him and get the information for you.
MR. DOWNE: One of the concerns when they had them going into the Film Development Corporation from different portfolios, it is awkward because it really does tie into the cultural side so much. Even the cultural community would agree that it is an economic driver, but at the same time it ties into the cultural group.
Let's move to the Arts Council. Do you have the Arts Council?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes, I do.
MR. DOWNE: I just wanted to make sure of that one. I thought I was right on the other. The Arts Council, last year, took a big cut, and this year again. Why are we continuing to cut the Arts Council's budget?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The Arts Council took a cut last year of 15 per cent, and this year, if you look at their budget, budget to budget, in fact it stayed the same, with the exception of, as the member for Halifax Atlantic raised before, the 2 per cent difference. That 2 per cent is $25,000, which was for the Portia White prize, which in the past had been
transferred to the Arts Council. The $25,000 was held back and will be going directly from the department. In essence, for programming their number hasn't changed. I recognize that was difficult for them last year, the 15 per cent, and they did a good job of maintaining their programs. This year they will have the same amount for their programs, although you will hear about the 2 per cent reduction but, in essence, they haven't had a 2 per cent reduction for programming.
MR. DOWNE: Well, the industry is pretty upset about it, actually, and they felt that when the department came out with the cultural strategy and the Minister of Finance said this is a waste of time, why are we fooling around with this, and wasn't very supportive. I paraphrase a little bit. The industry is asking if it is really the Minister of Finance or have you moved on that strategy with him, that it is a waste of time, or is there a commitment to actually bolster that side where it does create so many jobs and economic opportunity in the region?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Certainly. I guess we would agree to disagree on the Finance Minister's position on the cultural strategy. In fact, I have had many conversations with him and he has been very supportive. Being from an area of Nova Scotia, and with his Acadian background, I know he is very proud of his heritage and culture and feels that the strategy is an important component in the direction of my department. In fact, we have made new investments in things like the cultural industries, in cultural and rural development, and a number of other areas. It is like anything else, we always wish we had more money for a number of other programs; we always wish we had more money for different organizations.
At the end of the day we had to make some decisions, redirecting some dollars and putting it in things like the Export Development Program, which I think has been beneficial, and to see money redirected for cultural industries, for growing industries like the music industry. We are working with the industry now to put that in place, and that will be in place this year.
MR. DOWNE: One of the issues of the music industry, they have talked about and I suggested, is a trade mission specifically for the music industry in Nova Scotia. We have trade missions on forestry; we have trade missions on other economic initiatives - an actual trade mission for the music industry. They have a huge job breaking the barriers of the United States market. Has the minister considered a specific trade mission for the music sector in Nova Scotia, in dealing with the United States? Some of the bigger names can get there, but there is a lot that can't. I suggested that to a committee meeting we had, the Human Resources Committee I believe, and they seemed to be receptive to the concept. Have you thought about it at all?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: One of the trade missions which some of the music industry did partake in was the New York Trade Mission. This is actually something that came up during the Atlantic Ministers of Culture's time in P.E.I. We were looking at things like this, like trade missions. The music industry brought that up to us. At the time I said that this would be a good fit with the money we are going to be putting aside for cultural industries. I mentioned that we are working with the industry to look at, strategically, where that money can best be spent.
I definitely agree with the member that we should look at trade missions specifically for musicians, because I do realize that many of our musicians are not able to access particular markets because of the distance, for example, and the dollars that it would cost to go. It is certainly something we will include in our business planning process as we move forward, and it is certainly something I will take into consideration when we finalize how the $250,000 will be spent on cultural industries. I think it is an excellent idea that the member has brought forward, and we will endeavour to move forward on something like that.
MR. DOWNE: The Corporate Affairs Division. Of the little over $1 million increase in the budget, am I correct in saying about $897,000 goes to the new Corporate Affairs Division?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The new Corporate Affairs Division would be a variance of $897,000. It will include lease costs from TWP, an increase. As you know, that moved over from Transportation and Public Works, through the departments, and that would be $570,000. There is a new investment of $200,000 in various planning processes for policies, strategies, business planning, and includes the inclusion of protocol, through Corporate Affairs, under that umbrella; the new investment for the Order of Nova Scotia, $20,000; and the establishment of a full staff complement for policy and records management and administration.
MR. DOWNE: I think you have a good Islander looking after it.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Excuse me?
MR. DOWNE: Do you have a good Islander looking after that?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Of course we do. I would just mention, for clarity, it is staff that has moved in from different aspects of the department.
MR. DOWNE: What is the budget amount for the new cultural industries dollars? How much are you going to be spending in your department altogether?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: For cultural industries in general?
MR. DOWNE: Yes.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: It is $680,000.
MR. DOWNE: How are those dollars going to be spent?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The $680,000 breakdown would include the $250,000 for cultural industry development; the $250,000 for the export development program; as well as other monies targeted for such things as publishing and other smaller programs.
MR. DOWNE: You used to send around information, the Doers and Dreamers Guides, to the MLAs and their caucus offices.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: You didn't get one this year?
MR. DOWNE: I haven't seen it, if it has come. It has been sent out to all the offices, has it?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Actually, it is funny the member raises the question, I raised the very question with my communications officer the other day to ensure that all the caucus offices had it. I will check, it should be there. I don't know if they have arrived or not. Should there be other material that you want to get, such as the other guides, I can make that available. If it hasn't gone to your caucus, Doers and Dreamers, that is a mistake, it should be there, and it will be there next week.
MR. DOWNE: We used to receive the hard copies of the Tourism Insights at our offices as well.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: We can forward that, as well.
MR. DOWNE: So there is no real reason why they just stopped? I wouldn't mind also getting this golf one that you have, too.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Certainly. What I will ensure to you is that a copy of the Doers and Dreamers Guide goes, as well we can ensure that the Tourism Insights is regularly brought to the other caucus offices, and maybe a copy of each of the other guides, forwarded. Then, should a member want to get a copy, a call could be made and we would send more over, if they want them for their offices.
[1:00 p.m.]
MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, you do have other portfolios, as well. The Nova Scotia Sport and Recreation Commission is under your auspices as well. Sport and Recreation plays a vital role in many of the activities that happen throughout Nova Scotia. They have been able to make a few dollars - a few loaves of bread and a couple of fishes go a long way - and it has been very beneficial. Now we have issues like Skate Yarmouth and Skate Antigonish, and the budget is fairly tight. Can you tell me what new dollars of growth are going to be in Sport and Recreation, and how is that going to be deployed?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Sorry, the question with regard to Antigonish and Yarmouth, in regard to the facilities?
MR. DOWNE: Yes, is that going to have an impact on Sport and Recreation?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: How much in this year's budget?
MR. DOWNE: Yes.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: There is $525,000 set aside in this year's budget for the Millennium Centre in Antigonish, and $400,000 set aside for the facility in Yarmouth. It is important to note that those were specially set up by the previous government. They were very good initiatives, and there was a need for those facilities in those particular areas.
MR. DOWNE: We have some needs in our area, and down in Bridgewater, as well, for a facility. I know we have been working with Sport and Recreation on a multi-purpose facility. I know that we have had representatives from Sport and Recreation involved in the meetings, the public meetings, and we have had our federal Member of Parliament, we have had representation from Michael Baker, for example, and myself and the mayors and wardens. Across the line, it has been working on a strategy for that. One of the issues is that Sport and Recreation, obviously, would be asked to be a partner in this. Is there going to be enough money in the budget to be able to have Sport and Recreation after these other two projects are dealt with, to actually be able to play a vital role?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: We certainly are helping, as I understand, with the planning component of it. As you know, we do have an increase in this year's budget for the RFD program. Of course we could use a lot more money; 70 per cent of the facilities in the province are over 25 years old. One of the measures I am taking as minister, and it has only been eight or nine weeks, but I met with Denis Coderre this week to talk about a number of issues, one of them being infrastructure and one of them being a need for us to partner with municipalities, partner with community organizations and a number of other groups. I feel there is need for the federal government to take a leading role in that, as well. He was
receptive during the meetings. Next week we have our national summit, and that is one of the issues I will be taking forward with me.
We have made a commitment by increasing our dollars this year in the RFD program, but when you are talking $2.7 million, spreading that across the province, it is not easy. As you know, we have instances like Springhill, which lost total use of their facility. Our dollars are definitely spread thin and the staff does an excellent job. The commitment I can make at this point is that we will continue to work with all the organizations in regard to the planning process, and in regard to a financial commitment, we will have to see, as we move forward, but as of now I can't make a commitment. As I understand it, the plan hasn't come forward yet with regard to an exact dollar figure. You will have to excuse me for not knowing that.
We are also looking at - I brought up the federal government but we obviously have a large part to play in that - how we deal with some of these larger facilities and how we deal with the amount of money that it takes to build them, and the amount of money it takes to build the one in Yarmouth and in Antigonish. I know, for example, the member for Cape Breton North has a similar project, they are in the planning stages as well. There are communities across the province that have them. As you know, it is a constant struggle to try to see those come to be.
We are certainly committed to the planning process, we are certainly committed to looking at an infrastructure program at the larger facilities. As minister responsible I am certainly committed to encouraging other levels of government - not only federal, but municipal as well - to come on-board; even so much as matching the RFD program would, I think, go a long way.
MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, I have already had the pleasure of having the federal Minister of ACOA in my riding. We talked about the issue, and we brought it to his attention. It is very preliminary at this point; we have done some studies, ADI did a study and we have done some costing. Sport and Recreation has been a tremendous asset to the planning process, and I want to compliment the staff there. They are excellent and have been very co-operative.
I guess I am bringing it to your attention simply to note that I sense from the federal minister that there is a willingness to sit down and take a look at this, but I wanted to make sure that the province was going to be a partner in it as well. I sense from you that the province would - you obviously can't say yes without knowing the detail - be receptive to being a partner in trying to find solutions to whatever the community comes up with. Ultimately, in the end, the capital is one issue, but the operational side is what the community is prepared to support.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: And that is the situation we are facing in many, especially, smaller communities, where they want to build a large facility but it is the operational component that is extremely difficult.
MR. DOWNE: I notice that you have the chief executive officer of the Liquor Commission here as well, and I have just a quick question on one of the cash cows of the province, as somebody has referred to it. He has done a tremendous job, I might say, over the years, growing. I don't know how he gets everybody to drink so much, and the more expensive wines and beers and liquors. It was another fairly successful year, and you are pushing it to grow again this year, I noticed in the revenue numbers. What innovations are you going to be doing this year to promote the further consumption of alcohol in Nova Scotia, over last year, besides praying for a hot, dry summer?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The consumption of alcohol, which the member mentioned, is relatively flat. It is a combination of inflation and a slight, probably, price increase in certain products, where you would see a difference in growth, which I believe is an increase of $2.5 million, if memory serves me correctly - I don't have it right in front of me - to a $2.5 million increase this year.
There are other initiatives that should be commented on. We are moving forward on the agency stores which will allow us to go into communities like Iona, like Bass River, which we currently weren't able to move into, at least we didn't feel that we could. Along with a number of other initiatives and I think they will help to expand and to grow - not only opportunities for rural Nova Scotia, but opportunities from a tourism perspective as well.
MR. DOWNE: There was a trend - people were buying more expensive wines, for example, people were buying higher-end type of alcoholic beverages. It wasn't so much the consumption, except obviously beer consumption goes up if it is a hot, dry summer, according to the beer manufacturers. Are there any marketing initiatives that you are looking at doing to continue that?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I think what should be mentioned is programs like the Port of Wines program, Beers of the World program. Staff at the NSLC are constantly updating themselves with regard to encouraging and providing what is available in the stores. Whether it is through training modules or whatever it might be, they are able to educate the customer to a greater degree, which may end up seeing them buy more expensive wine, which may end up seeing that particular customer come back and to encourage them to try other products. I think that's important from a customer-service point of view and it's important from a business point of view that it be very service oriented. That is a focus that has certainly been a trend, I know, under the previous government and under our current government as well.
MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, I only have four minutes left in my time for a very important portfolio and it is frustrating. Before I turn it over to Kennie, I will say that I believe that you have agreed with the restaurant trade that they reduce the fee for their liquor and wines.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The 9.3 per cent surcharge?
MR. DOWNE: Yes, the surcharge. Are you going to monitor that to see whether or not consumers are actually going to get the benefit of that at the end of the day? If not, why not? If so, when are we going to see the benefit of that?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I think what is important, first of all, in the 9.3 per cent, we simply collect the 9.3 per cent. That 9.3 per cent doesn't affect our bottom line. It is actually to Alcohol and Gaming, so that minister could respond as far as their bottom line.
With respect to where the industry spends the additional portion, I think one thing that is important is that these members in the industry should, I believe, only pay what it costs to do the proper monitoring of the industry. By reducing that 9.3 per cent, it would better reflect the actual cost. It was also mentioned by the Auditor General, I believe in his report and he acknowledged that and suggested that that was the right direction to move forward into.
With regard to where the private sector will spend that money, specifically, we are always monitoring what prices are throughout the province. I actually mentioned this to the Lounge and Beverage Room Association, whom I had the opportunity to speak to in Truro a couple of months ago. I specifically mentioned that of course we would hope they would invest it back into their businesses. I would expect them to do that, which I believe would be better for their business, be better for employment opportunities throughout the province and be better for the consumer. It will be something we continually monitor each and every year, but specifically with regard to an actual type of monitoring program, we will continue to monitor it as we have in the past, but there is no specific program with this new 9.3 per cent down to 4.2 per cent or somewhat close to that.
MR. DOWNE: There is always a question whether it will be flowed through properly, so I guess if there can be any kind of analysis done it would be great. I am out of time, but I had one comment on community museums. I have to be parochial here because I can't get into the broader issues due to no time. We have a number of small museums in my riding. For example, the LaHave Islands Museum and the DesBrisay in Bridgewater and we have a number of smaller museums throughout my riding. It has always been a struggle to get adequate funding for that. Can I have a commitment by you, Mr. Minister, that you would be providing the same level of support directly and indirectly through student programs where you have to apply for students working there in the summertime? Those museums -
for example, LaHave Islands Museum and the other museums in that area - are having a hard time making a go of it. In a lot, the community's involvement makes it happen and we have been a supporter of that. I look to you for support for those through summer employment placement issues and some capital requirements that are required in those areas.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Just to quickly touch on a couple of points. The operational dollars which they received - LaHave - through the community museum systems was $3,900 last year. It is $3,822 this year. That is a variance of about $78, but they have the opportunity this year to partake in the Strategic Development Fund, which is a $100,000 fund, and should they want to do something to their existing museum or try different initiatives, that is the whole idea of this fund. There will be some opportunities for them to partake in that. I see that as a unique opportunity and other museums throughout - I mentioned earlier, I believe it is 40 in the province that took advantage of that last year. There were probably 100 more that we could have done, 40 more, but 40 out of the 68 in the program is quite significant. Hopefully, ones like LaHave will be able to take advantage of that this year. I can forward the information on that should you want to give that to them or another community museum. I can ensure that staff forwards that to you.
MR. DOWNE: My time is up and I would like to turn it over to my colleague, the member for Victoria. Mr. Minister, I would like to try to arrange a meeting with your staff some time to get into more detail on some of these issues and I would appreciate any support you give in that area.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Certainly.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Victoria. Just to remind you, I need about two minutes to do the wrap-up of final resolutions; you have about 10 minutes remaining.
MR. KENNETH MACASKILL: Mr. Minister, [Gaelic spoken here.]
The former speaker started off with Culture and I will do the same. I have welcomed you and your staff here in Gaelic today. I will begin by asking where are we with the Kennedy Task Force report on the Gaelic strategy?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: That should be out very shortly - the Dr. Mike Kennedy Report. As well, I will be forwarding that to various stakeholders in the Gaelic community in early May to present what has been called the Gaelic audit or the report being done by Mike Kennedy. So, within the next few weeks, it should be coming out. Should the member have a particular person or persons that he would like to see that presented to, I would be most willing to get them included when I show them. I am going to be talking about not only that, but also about the trip I had taken and some of the initiatives happening.
MR. MACASKILL: Thank you, Mr. Minister. I know the minister and I differ to some degree a little bit on the strategy of sustaining the Gaelic culture, but I do want to say to the minister that I appreciate the efforts he is making. I appreciate Tartan Day; I think it was a nice day. While it is a small group of people, I think they were very appreciative of that day and very pleased to be recognized in a special way.
[1:30 p.m.]
My questions, Mr. Minister, if you don't mind will be somewhat scattered across the sheet relative to the Liquor Commission, and Tourism and Culture. Can I ask the minister, where are we in relation to the privatization of the three provincial resorts?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: With regard to the private sector management contract, at the current time we have gone through a fairly lengthy process. We are now down to two specific companies that we are looking at. We are in a Phase III. The Phase III will include a detailed analysis of financial information; site tours of similar properties that they own; reference checks; detailed human resource plan including salary scales, hiring process, staffing levels - I will forward this to the member so that he doesn't have to write all this down - as well as a tour of corporate head offices; the contract terms; a standard copy of management contract we developed; community involvement, how they will become part of each rural community; credit check; identification of a transitional leader and accreditation schedule; and review of ongoing provincial contract. That should be coming forward within the next number of weeks to Cabinet for approval. I would expect that by the middle of May that should be - should be - in place for the new operating season.
MR. MACASKILL: Will the new operators be in place for this tourist season?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes.
MR. MACASKILL: You expect they will be in all three resorts?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Oh, yes, I would expect. Of course, it depends on Cabinet approval as well. But I would expect this would be in place by between May 15th and the end of May, somewhere in that range. Hopefully, by the middle of May, this will be in place. There will be a transition period as the member would understand, but I see this being in place definitely mid to late May.
MR. MACASKILL: Will that in any way delay the opening or the start-up of these facilities?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: No.
MR. MACASKILL: Can you tell me if the Bluenose is going to visit Cape Breton this coming season? And, if not, why not?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I will have to admit to the member, I don't have the schedule with me. I have seen the schedule, in fact I looked at it the other day and I must admit that I didn't look to see if it was coming to the Island. I know it is making a number of trips to Lunenburg and so on, but I will certainly check the schedule. I can't tell you for sure if it is or if it isn't, but I will certainly look.
MR. MACASKILL: The schedule I saw did not include Cape Breton and I think many Cape Bretoners will be disappointed having a Tourism Minister from Cape Breton and our pride, the schooner Bluenose, the pride of Nova Scotia, won't come to visit Cape Breton. I think the minister should try to fit a visit somewhere in the schedule.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I will go back and look at the schedule and it is something that I will certainly bring up in conversation with regard to the Preservation Trust. Perhaps maybe a place - I think maybe Baddeck might be a nice place, somewhere like that. I am sure the member would agree with that.
MR. MACASKILL: I wouldn't argue on that location. Thank you, Mr. Minister.
Earlier on, my colleague and the member for Timberlea-Prospect raised the issue with the road conditions. Of course, being familiar with the Cabot Trail, which I am sure you are, a constant complaint that we have is the condition of Nova Scotia's most scenic drive, probably Canada's most scenic drive, or one of them, and I am wondering what effort you are making with the Transportation Minister. I know you made the statement earlier on that you have been discussing it with the minister and he is familiar, but I am not quite so sure if the minister is getting good advice from his staff.
A week or so ago we raised the issue of a bridge in Middle River where he made a statement that only two homes were affected, when in fact there were 65. If that is the kind of information the Minister of Transportation is getting, I think the Minister of Tourism should have a talk with him and discuss the real issues and the various serious conditions of the Cabot Trail. I am wondering if the minister knows of any work to be done on the Cabot Trail this summer.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Obviously, the Cabot Trail is of great interest to me as well, due to the fact that we have adjoining ridings and part of the trail itself is in my riding. With respect to specific contracts, I don't know off-hand for this year. I do know that there are more contracts coming out for work this year. Specifically with the Cabot Trail, I don't know for sure.
There was a recognition, in fact, the Deputy Minister of Transportation - sorry, the acting deputy minister, for the first number of months for Tourism, for the year 1999, he is very much aware and we have had many conversations with regard to particular roads like the Cabot Trail, Peggy's Cove. I know the Speaker of the House's area is of particular interest to them as well and a number of different areas. I have asked that the minister and his staff take a particularly close look at these tourism destinations, with regard to whatever it might be, if it is paving or shoulder work, which is important as well and RIM money and pay close attention even to, as I mentioned earlier, taking a look at the scheduling of line painting. It is not a big issue, but in fact it is.
I know in my own particular area in Cheticamp, they brought the issue up on many occasions because they feel that we should be prepared as early as possible for the visitors. Being that you are spending the money anyway, I think it is important. It is really a non-financial item, it is just a matter of scheduling. I brought that to the minister and deputy minister's attention, as well as my staff, and they are taking a look at that.
MR. MACASKILL: How much time do we have, Mr. Chairman?
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have one minute.
MR. MACASKILL: One minute. I want to just touch on the liquor outlet stores. I understand from an earlier question that you expect an increase in profits from the liquor store. How do you reach that conclusion? If we are going to put in new agency stores, where is the new revenue going to come from? I have heard it said that the area is saturated with liquor stores - do you think we are going to get more dry people coming in? I am just wondering where the revenue is going to come from. I notice that there has been a lobby to cut the 10 per cent fee off the price to bars and restaurants, so I am wondering where the extra money is coming from.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: With regard to when the new agency stores come into play - and in this year with regard to our NSLC stores, there is a minor increase of volume of about 1 per cent or a little less than 1 per cent - when you take into account the 1.5 per cent in inflation, that is where you are seeing the difference in increased dollars.
With respect to agency stores in general, I see it as an opportunity. I know it affects your riding and it affects my riding along with a number of other ridings. From a community point of view, I see this as an opportunity . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Wrap it up please. You have 5 seconds.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Five seconds? I would like to thank the members for their questions. My closing won't be as long as my introductory.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I need to call for Resolutions E24, E31 and E40.
Shall Resolution E31 stand?
Resolution E31 stands.
Resolution E24 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $7,516,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Nova Scotia Sport and Recreation Commission, pursuant to the Estimate.
Resolution E40 - Resolved, that the business plan of the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission be approved.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolutions stand?
The resolutions stand.
Shall all remaining resolutions sent to the subcommittee stand?
The resolutions stand.
The time has now passed. We will now report progress and the completion of our debate to the Committee of the Whole.
We stand adjourned. Our 40 hours have been met.
[1:21 p.m. The subcommittee rose.]
