HALIFAX, THURSDAY, MARCH 21, 2024

 

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY

 

3:46 P.M.

 

CHAIR

Nolan Young

 

 

THE CHAIR: Order. The Committee of the Whole on Supply will come to order.

 

The honourable Government House Leader.

 

HON. KIM MASLAND: Chair, would you please call Resolution E4.

 

THE CHAIR: Debate will continue with approximately 57 minutes left for the Liberal Party.

 

The honourable member for Sydney-Membertou.

 

HON. DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Thank you, Chair. I’m looking forward to getting back into these Estimates for the Department of Community Services after a speech last night from the minister. I had a few minutes to take this opportunity to thank staff. I know they’re going to be answering a lot of my questions today, and others, as we go.

 

It’s funny, I was watching QP from the back, and I think it was one of the most expensive Question Periods I’ve ever seen. We saw big commitments from the Department of Community Services for new shelters. I believe 100 were committed to my colleague the member for Annapolis to support that area. I’m going to ask that question first. Of those 100 new shelters, is the money allocated in this year’s budget?

 

HON. BRENDAN MAGUIRE: The full amount has been allocated in this budget. We’re ready to go.

 

I would like to address a few things, if you don’t mind. I’m not going to take a full hour, but I will say that it was a fun and interesting Question Period. What I am trying to get across to individuals is that there has obviously been some pushback from some small portions of people within communities. In order to overcome that, we need everybody to collectively work together. What I mean by that is political sides, political leaders.

 

I think when it comes to homelessness, housing options and Pallet shelters - it almost feels like Pallet shelters have got this negative - it’s not. It’s a great thing. I encourage anyone to read the Canadian Press article where they interviewed Jim Gunn and they showed everything that’s going on there. They’re clean sites, they’re dignified sites, they’re safe sites.

 

What I’ll say to people is that we have homelessness here in Nova Scotia, and what I hope everyone would say and do - when people push back on them on shelters, homelessness and some of these wraparound services - is that we have to do something. We are obligated as leaders to do something, but we’re also obligated as human beings to do something. What I would say to people is that when you get pushback in your community, and you’re not going to get - not everyone. There are a lot of people who are very supportive of this. I believe that the majority of people are supportive.

 

I do believe there are questions. I do believe that people have some worries, and that’s where the consultation comes in. In Kentville last night, and in other areas, we’ve had some great consultation. The questions that are asked are reasonable questions. What I will say to Nova Scotians is that we are here to provide these options along with the services, and that’s what’s important. It’s important that we provide wraparound services for individuals so that they can decide what the next step is in their lives and where they go next.

 

One of the questions I got - not from the Opposition - was around potential alcohol and drug use. What I can tell you is that at the site we now have up in Sackville, there is no drug or alcohol use allowed on site. We have a no harassment or abuse policy on site - very strict on these things.

 

One of the things someone said to me was that when they leave the site, they’re doing it. We cannot control the actions of people. We’re not going to follow people around to make sure of what they’re doing when they’re off site. What I will say is that we are there to provide them the services. We are there to give them the help they need, to help them on the next stage of their journey. That’s what’s important here.

 

I got a little fired up during Question Period, and I get a little fired up sometimes in the media about this stuff, because I think we sometimes lose the human element of this. That’s what gets to me. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: These are people. They are somebody’s loved one. They are someone’s son or daughter or a sibling, a child. Somewhere along the way, some people forget that, and I’m here to remind them of that.

 

Yes, I get worked up and, yes, I get fired up about these things. I think everybody does. I will tell you this, if you’re okay - that the member stood up on his feet and asked me this question. We’ve had conversations on the outside where we’ve talked about this. Fully supportive, right? He’s looking for solutions for the people of his community. He’s fighting for the people of his community. He realizes that the people of his community also include those who are living rough and are homeless.

 

That’s the other thing. We talk about consultation, and part of the consultation is talking to those individuals. To say that we’re not doing consultation on these things is just simply not true. It’s really not true. I’ve spent more time talking to the CBRM in the last week than I have calling my partner in the last month. If you look at the minutes, we are constantly - not just me, but this department and the staff. It’s not just the Pallet homes, it’s all of it. Whether it’s in Housing or DCS, none of this is going to work if we don’t work together, and if we aren’t working with our municipalities, if we aren’t working with our stakeholders, and if we aren’t working with the individuals on the ground. This is very important to me that we are working together to get these things done.

 

Yes, there will be some pushback. Yes, there will be some confusion. Maybe there will be people who just flat-out won’t want these things to happen, but I believe in the bottom of my heart that more people want something to happen than don’t. I believe that Nova Scotians want a safe, dignified place for everybody - and that’s what drives me. I believe we are in the right here, and I believe that we will continue to be in the right as we fight and work for our most vulnerable Nova Scotians. I’ll remind everybody in this room that most people are one paycheque away from being in that position.

 

When we talk about consultation, and we talk about moving forward and moving slowly - maybe it was just me who was confused, because I do get confused. If we stop and read the Hansard - and I’m not saying it’s one specific member or one specific party - there has been some mixed messaging. There really has. Wasn’t it the other day when I heard a member stand up and say, “Build this now. Why isn’t it done now? Get it done now.” Then a member of the same party stood up and said, “We need to consult. We need to talk to the community.” We are doing both.

 

Just because members are not seeing the consultation doesn’t mean it’s not happening. Just because we are prepping sites for shelters and for housing options doesn’t mean that we’re not continuing consultation. Just because the minister is not standing in a room or the Premier is not standing in a room, doesn’t mean the staff - the hard-working staff - are not in those rooms. It doesn’t mean the stakeholders are not in that room.

 

Last night in Kenville, one of the deputy ministers went down, along with staff. They were there, and we heard in this Legislature today about the lack of consultation with the government. I would argue is that the deputy minister and executive directors are just as important as a minister, and they were in that consultation. They addressed the issues there and they spoke to the people. That’s pretty darn good consultation, to have a deputy minister and executive director down there in the evening when they could be home with their families and their loved ones. They’re so dedicated to the cause, and the staff is so dedicated to the cause, that they’re not home with their loved ones. Let’s be honest, we signed up for this, right?

 

I hope I get another 15 questions tomorrow in Question Period because I’m going to tell you, and I’m going to repeat it over and over, here’s the answer: We are consulting. We are moving forward. We are working through these issues. We are working with people you speak to every day.

 

I bet you - I’m sure they’ve told you - some of these things will take purchasing or leasing of property. I don’t think it’s fair to the taxpayers of Nova Scotia for me to stand in this House and say we’re looking at 123 Ketch Harbour Road - and then the individual finds out and potentially increases the price. Not to say that would happen, but you don’t know.

 

I want to make sure that when we’re spending the money and the resources of taxpayers, we’re doing it in the correct way. Every dollar that we have to overspend or extra-spend on these things is, I feel, money that could be going into the hands of the people we’re here to support - the most vulnerable - resources.

 

I’ve got to be honest with you: I don’t remember your question, (Laughter) Maybe you feel that I didn’t come across as respectful or that I don’t respect the Opposition. I absolutely respect the Opposition. I absolutely respect the members across the way. I understand this is all what it is, but the truth is - I said it last night, and I’ve said it for umpteen years - this isn’t about me. I’m here to do everything I can for those individuals and those people. There is consultation happening.

 

To the member for Annapolis, I will come down to his community. I’ve made that promise. I will stand there in his community. We can go down there, and we can look at options because homelessness and living rough isn’t just an HRM issue. It’s a CBRM issue too. It’s a Valley issue. It’s right across this province. I know my experience - my lived experience, I would say - is mostly in HRM, but I know that member has pressure.

 

I don’t care if he’s Liberal, Progressive Conservative, Green, or whatever party there is out there. I will go down, I will stand with you, we’ll work through solutions, and we’ll help. It’s no different than CBRM. It’s no different than Yarmouth, Digby, Truro, or anywhere, because homelessness and poverty have no boundaries. They don’t see jurisdictions, and they don’t see political affiliation.

 

[4:00 p.m.]

 

Are we consulting? I can tell you that we’re consulting a lot. We’re consulting a ton. Am I confident that we’re going to have these Pallets out? Absolutely confident. We’re working every day on these things. Am I confident that these are safe, dignified areas? Absolutely. Am I confident that we’re going to put them in a perfect spot? There’s no such thing as perfection, and if we’re chasing perfection, we’re never going to get these things on the ground.

 

If we’re chasing perfection, then I would argue a lot of things that have already been built would not be there, not just from DCS but governments before and governments going forward. Are there going to be people who are not completely 100 per cent happy? Absolutely. I will tell that member, like I’ve told every member of this House, that I will talk to him, I will consult with him. I am not the type of person who is just going to drop it on him.

 

He’s a leader in his community, just like the mayor, the councillors, New Dawn, and all these others - Erika Shea. They’re all leaders in the community, and I want to make sure all your voices are heard. We may not make the decision you agree with, but at least you feel like you’ve been part of it.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I wasn’t sure if I would get another question. I’m going to say a few words. I’m going to pivot off this, because there’s some stuff that’s important to me and conversations I’ve had with families around disability. I do want to say this: A commitment was made today for a hundred more shelters, which is about $4 million-plus. I’ll continue to ask where they’re going and what communities they’ll go to.

 

The minister is not wrong. This is an important conversation. Pallet shelters seem to be the one topic that most people have been talking about, but it’s a collective community conversation around all the supports we provide to people. We’ve always had situations where every community has folks who, in some way, shape or form, are struggling. In my experience as an MLA, I really saw it through the COVID journey, and now we’re into now. Every MLA would say the same thing - that we’ve seen a big uptick in it.

 

Communities and municipalities are now into jurisdictions that they weren’t traditionally involved in. For a long time, municipalities weren’t really into the housing game, and now they are. Now they’re trying to navigate that. You have other organizations stepping forward that have incredible volunteers, or they are organizations that are trying to look at ways that they can support housing and support people who are living rough in communities. When the minister says that we’re saying, “Go fast, go fast,” and then, “Consult, consult” - and he wasn’t there when the decision was made in Whitney Pier, but the decision was made.

 

Nobody knew that the decision was coming. That’s ultimately what happened. That’s the argument around consulting. There was no consulting. The minister of the day and the Premier came down. They heard from the community, and now the decision was apparently made that it’s not going there.

 

I do want to say this about the community of Whiney Pier: I had the privilege of representing Whitney Pier for seven years. I can tell you that they were amazing to me. Everybody in the community was amazing to my family. They were amazing to anyone who needed help. Families were very connected. The community was very connected.

 

It’s a melting pot. People came from all over the world to settle in Whitney Pier. I saw first-hand for seven years, having my office right on Victoria Road, how supportive and proud the community is of where they live, the multiculturalism of the community and the support that they provide to each other. You can go anywhere in the world, and you’ll meet somebody from Whitney Pier.

 

I do want to say that on the record because it was a very difficult conversation for the community because people never had enough information. Now some decisions are being made. I’m not going to ask that question of the minister because he and I are actually having that conversation. It’s an important one.

 

Again, I’ll say this. It’s not just about Pallet shelters. It’s really a new environment that every level of government is trying to address. It’s a fight because people are hurting. We’re all trying to find ways in which we can support. As I said, municipalities particularly are now into a jurisdiction that they haven’t been. The capacity in many cases is not there.

 

That’s what I’ll be advocating for as we go forward with the minister, but a commitment was made for those shelters. It’ll be interesting to see if they land in the budget. I know that the member who asked the question is from Annapolis, but I would suspect that he was probably referencing Digby, Windsor and all of that area. That’s a pretty big corridor. I’m sure the minister is probably looking at that too. I’m sure that the MLAs on the government side who represent those areas are probably looking at how they can support folks, and Pallet shelters may be part of that conversation for them. The minister says that he’s non-partisan and that he’s here to work for everyone. We’ll see what comes of those comments.

 

What I do want to talk about - and we’ve got some time today - is what’s important for everyone and important to me: the supports for the disability community. I’ve had conversations with a lot of families before I took this role as critic. I continue to have those conversations. I’m fortunate, too, because my wife is a learning centre teacher within the schools, so she brings a lot of perspective when I watch her work every day.

 

One of the things that is a big conversation, and some people would reference it as “a cliff”: A student goes through the school system and is receiving support. The family is receiving support. What happens is that they graduate, and what’s the next step for those kids? At that point, they’re not actually kids. They’re adults. There are great organizations around communities that I use at home. I use the Horizon Achievement Centre, Haley Street Adult Services Centre, and Breton Ability Centre. We’re moving away from that, as the minister mentioned last night. There’s going to be a push - the Remedy, how that’s going to look - inclusion within the communities. There’s a journey to get there.

 

For me, what I’m looking for from the department is what steps they’re going to take to support those families when that cliff comes, when the school system is done. We have wait-lists for a lot of programs. Nobody should have to wait. What’s the next step for these adults to participate in employment, to find a place to stay where they can live independently? What programs are available for them to seek new job opportunities and training?

 

I’ve heard a lot about this, and I’ve heard about this in the last couple of days from a parent who is going to leave work - has to leave work - to support her child because that cliff has come. School will end. I’m very passionate about what we all can be doing, regardless of what side of the floor we’re on, to support those families.

 

It’s a pretty broad question because the minister is giving pretty broad answers. It’s funny, because he had a 62-page speech last night, and I’ve got a binder, and I’m putting mine away too, I guess. We’ll have lots of time in QP and everything else. Question Period kind of gave me a sense today of what I should say in Estimates. I think it’s important. It’s about asking questions. It’s about having a conversation, right? Do you know what I mean? I’ve been on that side. I’m on this side now. It doesn’t change the way you advocate for your community.

 

For me, there is a huge gap. As I said, it is a journey to fill that gap. It’s a hard one. When I talk to my wife, kids will leave her programs. She teaches in the elementary system now, but she was in high school for four years. It was always hard because the kids would graduate, and then what was next? There are wait-lists for these wonderful programs. I hope the minister can answer. Part of the question I’m going to ask him is about what the plan is to increase the seats in those programs. Is that in the budget? That’s Step 1.

 

I really want to get a sense of what other supports are there for families when that time comes. What supports are there for a family that may have to leave the workforce to support their child? Again, this is about asking questions and about having a conversation. I know the minister is averaging about 20 minutes a response, so I wanted to take a few minutes and talk about this.

 

We’ve had a lot of conversation about cost of living, and we’ll get into that at some point. We can do some short snappers on that stuff, but this is important to me. This is important to a lot of families. The minister and I over the years have talked about this a lot. He’s been involved with as many projects that we got off the ground in Sydney as I have in Halifax. We’ve talked a lot about this stuff, and if he’s non-partisan, and he says what he says, this is something big.

 

This is something big for these kids who are graduating, to get them better opportunities beyond that age when they graduate. The hardest part of my wife’s job was not knowing where those kids were going to land after they graduated. We did our best to support them. There are great organizations within communities. I’m going to leave it there.

 

[4:15 p.m.]

 

My question is broad: What are the supports for those kids? What are the supports for their families? The seats, these wait-lists - is there anything in the budget to help increase the opportunities for these young adults who are coming through? What are the plans, and what’s in the budget to expand these opportunities?

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Before I give the answer, I do want to say that the member for Annapolis let me off the hook. Obviously, when I said I was going to give him a hundred Pallets - but he did come to me outside the House and say, “I don’t need a hundred.” So tomorrow, when you ask me that in Question Period, the response will be what we’re going to do is work. If you want me to come to Sydney, I will come to Sydney. We will work and try to create individualized plans and help for your communities. I can tell you that we do have 20 going into the Valley right now. Like I said to the member for Annapolis - and I extend this to any member in this House on any side - we’ll come in. We’ll come in with staff. We’ll sit down, we’ll have the conversations, and we’ll work through some of these issues with you.

 

Obviously, of the 200, 100 are not going into the Valley. They are going to be spread out from one end of the province to the other. We are working with the municipalities. If people want to take that literally, they can take it literally. They can ask that in Question Period, and they’re going to get that response.

 

Obviously, we realize there are issues in everyone’s community. We’re more than willing to go to Whitney Pier, Sydney, Bedford, Halifax Armdale, or the Cowie Hill area. In fact, we are looking for areas in HRM. We can have these conversations with the HRM members too.

 

I want to thank you for the question. I’m going to be quick, because I know there is something in the Remedy which is called the school leavers program. It will be implemented in 2025-26. Over the next couple months, we are going to go out into the community and work with our stakeholders and the experts on what is needed, how to implement it, and the process. I’m glad you brought it up. It is a huge need for individuals leaving school and getting on to the next stage in their lives. It’s also similar to what we’re doing with the PATH Program, which is for kids in foster care who are aging out of the system. I don’t want to call it basic income, but there will be some income there for them for the six years leading out of it, just to give them that support and that base.

 

We are, in fact, working on the school leavers program, and it’s going to be important. It’s going to be important, and I’m glad you brought it up. The member was right that in the past, it has been a cliff. What we’re looking at now, and what we heard loud and clear, is that this needs to be a gradual transition to the point where they are on their own, and the resources and the housing they need are around individuals. The cliff will be gone, and it will be a gradual transition.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: It’s a journey. That has been, and continues to be, what parents talk about - those opportunities that need to be there. Like I said earlier, you don’t plan your life to get on a wait-list. Parents are trying to provide every support they can to their child. It’s pretty emotional stuff to listen to listen to when you have parents who are saying, “I didn’t raise my child to be on a wait-list when they become an adult.” Again, I heard this in the last couple of days and it’s pretty moving to hear that.

 

One thing that I’m also looking for in the budget is - we talk about the support for the young adult or child going through this, but it’s also the supports for the family in cases where you have folks who can’t work or have to leave work to support their child. I’m sure that we all know families in that circumstance, depending on what they need to do to support their kids.

 

My question to the minister is: Is there anything in the budget to support families who have to make that transition to provide better support for their child?

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: That is all part of the $100 million investment that we saw in this budget. One of the things we’re doing is that we are going to be hiring over 100 staff. There’s going to be broad consultation with this stuff. What we’re looking to do, and what we will do, is bring the supports to the individuals.

 

We realize that there’s a lot to do. This is a historic investment for people living with disabilities. We are getting away from institutionalization and giving people choice. That is what is most important about this - giving people choice. When I say giving people choice, it’s not just the individual but it’s the families. We’re going to help the families. We realize that there’s pressure on the families.

 

Part of this is that the money is there, and now we need to do the consultation and really talk to the experts - not just the experts, but the individuals who are dealing with this on a daily basis: the parents and the family members. I’m really glad that the member brought up the family, because sometimes the parents and the family can be left out of these conversations. Sometimes we tend to forget about them.

 

We’ve all been MLAs, some of us for longer than others, but we’ve all dealt with issues similar to what the member was talking about. You see the strain. You see the love on the family member’s face, but you also see the strain. Whether it’s some respite, whether it’s help at home, whether it’s finding the resources within the community, that’s the big thing here. We all know of people who’ve had to drive for hours to potentially see their loved ones who have been in homes that are outside of the community. We want to bring them back into the community. We want to give them a sense of community and choice.

 

I would say that in some cases, for some individuals, having that control over their life, for maybe the first time ever - that’s important. That’s really important. That’s no reflection on previous governments or on previous leaders, but this is where we’re at in this moment in time. Where we are at is putting the person before the system, and that’s something that should have happened a long time ago.

 

Again, I’m not pointing fingers, but what I’m saying is that it can’t be about the system. It’s got to be about the person. We heard that loud and clear. This is, I will say again, a historic investment from this government. I heard a comment before. Someone said, Well, you were forced to make it; the court said you had to do it. Not from that member. What I will say is that, yes, there was some court-ordered stuff, absolutely. Do you know what wasn’t court-ordered? The extra $300 a month for disability payments. That was not court-ordered. We realized that we have to put more money into the hands of the people who need it the most - the most vulnerable Nova Scotians. That was the department recognizing and realizing that these things needed to be done.

 

What I would say to the member is that there are going to be intensive planning support coordinators who are going to help support families. This is one of the largest hirings in this department’s history. The budget for the DCS is increasing by 20 per cent. It’s a massive increase. That’s to help implement the Remedy, but also to listen. Consultation seems to be the theme of the day, but that’s what this is going to take. It’s going to take a lot of consultation and a lot of help.

 

Again, I do want to say that we are going to speak to the experts. I would dare say that having a Ph.D. and a Master’s is great, and it makes you an expert, but what also makes you an expert is being a parent. These are the people we are going to listen to - the whole spectrum of individuals we are going to listen to. We need to get this right, not just for now but for the future.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I appreciate the conversation. It’s important, too, because we are making a transition into more inclusivity within communities. You are making that transition at a time when housing is very hard to find, as we all know, in communities across the province.

 

As we make that transition, which is a decision that was made, it’s a decision that everybody is working toward. We want everyone to have the same opportunities to feel as part of the community. That transition is happening at a time when housing can be very difficult to find. There are going to have to be some decisions made around this stuff. It’s not going to be easy. A lot of staff are being hired, which the Opposition and others will be watching very closely as that rollout happens. It’s a large component of staff, as the minister has indicated - a $100 million budget. There’s going to be broad consultation.

 

I would argue, too, that there are a lot of great experts out there who have consulted a lot on this. I’m out on the road now, and I’m out talking to these stakeholders. The point I’m making is that as we transition, housing is going to be a problem, so many of these residents are going to move home with their families. The $300 disability credit - which I’d like some clarification on who can actually qualify for that - goes directly to the individual. But I think there needs to be more support for the family. How are we going to support the family when the transition happens, and housing is an issue?

 

[4:30 p.m.]

 

More supports are going to be needed for the family. My question to the department is: You talk about the $300 disability money, but what about the family? What supports are there? What is the department looking at? How are they going to build that up in an environment when you’re trying to transition when there’s no housing?

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Yes, we have an eye on housing, obviously, and we have an eye on resources. What I will say to the member is that Remedy isn’t just about Community Services. It is about working within all departments, and we are working with all departments. There is a round table that includes Health and Wellness, Housing, Mental Health and Addictions, and many others. We do know that there are some programs out there, and we are going to be working with them in the confines of those programs which are HomeShare Canada, Independent Living Nova Scotia, and the Flex independent places. Also, I will tell you that the facilities and the organizations are now starting to look within and figure out what the future looks like.

 

This is a future of possibilities, and what that means to me is that there is a huge investment. There are multiple departments and resources. We are going to have an increased influx of staff working on the ground in these programs. It gives them the ability to look at their own facilities and see what we can do. We’ll be there to help them every step of the way. If we need to expand programs, these are things that we will be looking at. If we need to expand programs that deal with housing and beds, we’ll be doing that. Again, this is a transition away from institutionalized - the old ways - to more choice and having those families have a voice, and allowing individuals to take control of their future.

 

We know that housing is a big part of this. Again, this is one of the largest investments - I think actually the largest investment - we’ve ever seen, and we are going to continue to make sure that that investment is spent wisely. That will include the services and the housing. It will include the voices of the individuals who, I feel, at points in their lives have not had a voice. We are here to say that we are going to give you control and, at the same time, we realize the pressures that are on your loved ones. We need to make sure that we help all of them.

 

Housing is a big part of this, no doubt, and we are looking at different timelines. What’s really going to be attached to those timelines is the consultation - talking to individuals, dealing with the issues at hand - and making sure that these individuals live with dignity in a safe environment and have a roof over their head.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We’ve got about nine minutes left. What I would ask, and he doesn’t have to list it today, but he talks about the $100 million budget. It would be nice to have a breakdown of that at some point for us to look at and then maybe ask some more questions in the future. I’ll take a few of these last nine minutes and I’ll give the minister a few.

 

The transition is a big one - talking to families about how their journey is going to look as that transition comes. As that transition happens, as I said, some will have independent living, but others will go home and they’ll be with their families.

 

I think a big part of that conversation - which I hope I get a chance to be part of as they have those conversations - is not to lose sight of the fact that we’re doing everything to support an inclusive community, we’re doing everything to support these adults as they transition. Again, I can see this happening. I’m starting to see it a little bit on the housing side. Folks are going to go home. People are going to leave work. People are going to transition.

 

That’s going to be very difficult. Incomes are going to diminish. Supports are going to be needed, and that has to be part of the conversation for those families. There are supports out there that people can access, but this is a big shift and families are going to need help. They are also going to need a voice. I think as the department consults, as the minister said, there are experts in the field and people who have been involved with this, and the department will be involved with it. But ultimately, you want to be talking to parents - lived experience, right?

 

I’ve had that lived experience where I’ve had mothers who said, I’m leaving work in a year because my child is finished school and is on a wait-list, and now I have to quit my job. Just don’t lose that as part of the conversation. That is bigger than we may realize, especially in a housing crunch. It’s going to be bigger than we may realize.

 

I’m glad the staff is hearing this because this is the stuff that I’ll be advocating for moving forward. I’ve got about six and a half minutes left. As part of that transition, as I said, there are some great organizations in communities, and we can list them all. Every MLA here has seen them in communities across the province. I always use the examples of home. Horizon Achievement Centre is a wonderful organization. I’m so happy to see them have a new facility. Haley Street Adult Services Centre - I give Stephen McNeil a ton of credit. They had a fire and the place was destroyed. Stephen McNeil went in, and he did the right thing for that organization.

 

Breton Ability Centre had some independent living on site, so they had some renovations we funded when we were in government. We did a number of great organizations across the province over those years, and also did a lot around accessible facilities. You look at the Dominion baseball field. The member for Glace Bay-Dominion - I don’t know if he’s in here or not. (Interruption) I’m not allowed to do that. I’m sorry, Chair. I was just going to say it’s important for . . .

 

THE CHAIR: Order. All the honourable members are busy with meetings and stuff. You can’t refer to if people are here or not.

 

The honourable member for Sydney-Membertou.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Thanks. It was meant as a compliment because he was involved with the project as well.

 

The department has been great in all of this. Hey, I asked for lots of money from the Department of Community Services over the years. They know it, right? They have been great, and they have supported a lot of this stuff. I think everybody wants as many opportunities for everyone to feel part of the community. Stephen McNeil used to say that all the time - everyone should see themselves in the community, in where they live.

 

Our government made policies to try to move in that direction. This government will make policies to try to move in this direction. I talked about it earlier - living your life to be on a list is tough. It’s tough for a parent.

 

I’ll give the minister the last four minutes in this round. I mentioned this earlier. All the organizations that I mentioned, and the other wonderful organizations that are around the province - is there a plan to increase funding for more spaces, for more people to access these wonderful programs across the province?

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: It’s probably going to take me three minutes to answer, so I want to thank the member for his passion on this and really asking the questions on it.

 

The truth is that this is all going to be in the spirit of Remedy. What that means is that the funding is going to be individualized and to the families. They’re going to have the choice of where to spend that money. We’re getting away from institutions. We’re making sure the resources are directly going to the family.

 

I can assure you that the families - there is going to be consultation. Twice a year, we’ll be doing a Remedy conference. It’s already happened this year. Hundreds of family members, individuals, and first voices attended. It was the one where the Premier apologized. We know their voices need to be heard. That is all part of this. It’s about giving individuals the freedom to make choices. The member has talked about the voices and how we’re moving forward on these things. We are going to be held to account by a panel of experts, who are going to be watching us and making sure we follow the Remedy. That’s big.

 

This is a lot of money. It’s a lot of resources, and obviously, it’s something that needs to happen. There is going to be a close eye on this every step of the way. In fact, in 2027-28, there will be a five-year review that will be completed. During that time, there are going to be the consultations at the conference, and the expert panel is going to be watching us on this.

 

We need to get this right. We do. We need to get this right. Not only do we have to, but we legally have to get this right. Let’s be honest. We have to get this right. The department is working - not just this department, but all departments are working together to make sure this is done correctly.

 

Again, I think I might have one year more than the member. It’s not often that you see a massive program start up like this where there’s so much oversight - and not just oversight, but outside oversight. We’re going to have the expert panel watching our every move. At the same time, we’re going to do what we feel is extremely important, which is constant communication. The conference was widely attended. It’s one thing to say we’re going to invest money, and it’s another thing to say we’re going to hire all these individuals.

 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think what the member is trying to say is that if the families’ voices aren’t heard, they’re not going to buy it. We need to make sure the first voices and the families are heard so that they believe in the system, that they help create the system, and the individualization of the system happens.

 

THE CHAIR: Order. That concludes the amount of time allotted for this round for the Liberal Party. We’ll move on to their NDP colleagues for the next round.

 

The honourable member for Cape Breton Centre-Whitney Pier.

 

KENDRA COOMBES: I’m going to stay on this topic. I’ve been in this critic role for a while now in the Department of Community Services. It’s a topic that I feel passionate about.

 

We are hearing from this department that they know it must be done, and they are finally moving people out of institutionalization and into more community-based housing.

However, I do want to make clear to the minister that if we don’t have enough of the qualified residential care workers in place in these settings, then those people who are living in those community homes are still going to be in institutions, just smaller institutions. They cannot be part of the community because they don’t have the residential care workers needed.

 

[4:45 p.m.]

 

My question is: How are we going to ensure that we have enough qualified staff to provide the care, as well as to ensure that the people who are living in these community homes are able to be fully involved in community?

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: You are correct. We will need to recruit, and we will need to find the dedicated staff. We do have some amazing staff right now in our institutions, and when those institutions start to close, obviously we’re going to give them an opportunity to apply for jobs.

 

Also, part of what Remedy actually talked about was having a workforce strategy that has to be done this year. It will be done this Summer. One of the things we’ll be emphasizing and looking for is people who understand individual choice. We want our staff - the current staff and staff we’re going to be bringing in, staff we’re going to be hiring and recruiting - to fully understand what Remedy means and how transformational it is, and that this isn’t about institutionalizing individuals. It’s about giving the freedom, the choice, and the ability to just embrace community and embrace choice.

 

We do have recruiters out right now. You may know some people in your community who you feel would be good for these roles. That’s what I would say to the member and any member here. I would say that you definitely know people who are going to be great for these roles. It is mandated, so we are going to be looking. The strategy will be out by sometime this Summer, and then we’ll know. We’ll have a clear idea on where we need to go and what we need to do.

 

As I said previously to the member for Sydney-Membertou, this is about emphasizing the individual and not the system. If you know somebody who is going to be interested in being part of the Remedy and part of this transformational process, that’s what we’re looking for.

 

KENDRA COOMBES: This could be a simple yes or no, if the minister wants. In that recruitment and potential retention of workers, would you be looking at increasing their pay scales? As of right now, they are paid, I believe, less than a CCA. I think they’re trying to look at getting their pay scales increased further. I’m just wondering if that’s going to be part of the retention and recruitment.

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: This is massive. We have a big workforce. We’re increasing staff by the hundreds. This recruitment will be one of, if not the largest, the department has ever done. Again, we are mandated to have a workforce strategy. I would actually say that, yes, it was part of the Remedy.

 

There are some really smart people within this department, and there are some really smart people within all of the departments in government. Even if we weren’t mandated to increase staff to the level that we need, we would always look at things like referral, pay, and retention. That is part of what we are going to do with this workforce strategy. It’s not just about finding the right people for these positions, it’s also about retaining them and making sure that things like work-life balance and pay, as the member said, are extremely important. Anyone who says pay is not important - it’s certainly not true. Pay and benefits, the working environment, and time off - we will be looking at all these things when it comes to the workforce strategy.

 

We want people to feel that this is where they belong, that this is the job they want to be in. To get there and to fulfill what they need to fulfill will include all those things. I’m looking forward to the workforce strategy. I think the staff are definitely looking forward to it - and the individuals. The member will have a clear look and clear vision of what it’s going to take to recruit, retain and keep our workforce happy, motivated, and inspired.

 

KENDRA COOMBES: That’s very helpful. Keeping on this track for a few more minutes, the Human Rights Review and Remedy for the Findings of Systemic Discrimination Against Nova Scotians with Disabilities technical report, released in February 2023, suggested that there should be a total of 190 home share spaces established by June 2024. I’m just wondering if the minister can comment on whether the government is on track to meet this amount.

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: We have the expert panel that we have to report to. The department is making progress on not just this but the entire Remedy. May is a big month for the department and for Remedy, because it will be a major update to the expert panel. It will be on the human rights website and it will be made available for all. We are moving forward. Great things are happening.

 

Again, there is accountability built into the Remedy. That accountability is outside the department. We are obligated, and we are more than willing and happy, to provide the updates and the progress to the panel of experts. That will be made available publicly. The department is working extremely hard on this. We have teams who are working extremely hard on this. Come May, that information will be made public, and not just the member but all Nova Scotians will be able to see the progress that has been made on this file.

 

KENDRA COOMBES: I’m moving to some income assistance questions, just to give you an idea of where we’re going. This budget announces some increases to income assistance. All individuals receiving income assistance, regardless of category, are still living below the official poverty lines. Does the minister believe that individuals receiving income assistance have enough to live on?

[5:00 p.m.]

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Maybe I didn’t hear the question correctly - and I apologize if I didn’t - but what I’m hearing is: Are we doing enough for poverty? There are a number of things in the budget that we are doing - and I say “we” collectively as a government - to help reduce the strains on people who are living at the lowest end of income, but also the working-class and middle-class folks right across Nova Scotia, who sometimes get left out of this conversation. I understand; there are pressing needs.

 

What I will say is that my job as the Minister of Community Services is to continue to advocate, work hard and find ways to put money in the hands of people on income assistance. I will say that I know that the $300 a month - we’ve referenced that numerous times - for people on a disability supplement is huge. It’s $3,600 a year that’s going to go directly into their pockets. I believe that’s what we need to do. We need to start putting resources into the hands of individuals.

 

I am proud to see the massive investment in the lunch program. I think that, especially when it comes to children, we need to do as much as we possibly can. I think the lunch program is going to make a heck of a difference in a lot of people’s lives, as we saw with the breakfast program. So now kids can go to school, and they can have breakfast and lunch. It takes a lot of weight off parents. It takes a lot of weight off those children. It’s hard to learn on an empty stomach. I’m proud of that investment.

 

I do think we would have all-party support on a lunch program. I would hope so, anyway. I think we should have all-party support on the disability supplement increase. We do realize that there is lots to do. I joke around when I say - and I heard people say - “Buckle up” and things like that. I’m not stopping. I know there’s more to do. I know there’s lots more to do.

 

One of the things that I’ve taken upon myself and work with staff to do is we’re going to strike up a ministerial round table. We’re going to hear from people. We’re going to hear from our stakeholders right across this province. It isn’t just going to be a one-off. We’re going to continue to listen to them and work with them to figure out what we can do and where we can do it to have the greatest positive impact on people’s lives. That’s one of the things that I’m hell-bent on doing.

 

We are working with other departments like the Department of Labour, Skills and Immigration. We realize that we need to work with the Department of Education and Early Childhood on poverty reduction strategies and things like that - and I will. I am working with them. We need to work with the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing. We need to work together with all of these departments to create the resources that are needed and create the programs that are needed.

 

We do have, in this budget, 500 new rent supps, which is going to have a huge impact on people’s lives. Something else that I’m really proud of, even though it’s not coming out of Community Services, is building new public housing. I’ve heard people in this House say, Well, it’s only X amount of units. Well, you know what? Forgive me for not knowing off the top of my head. I’ve got a lot of information rattling around in this big head of mine, but I’ll get the exact number from the Minster of Municipal Affairs and Housing on the number of public housing units he’s creating. You know what? For every unit of public housing we are creating, it’s one public housing unit that wasn’t there. That’s big.

 

Do I think we are doing enough? What I will say to the member is that I am not going to stop. I am going to continue to support any idea, no matter who it comes from and where it comes from, if it helps people who need it the most - if it helps Nova Scotians, if it helps working-class Nova Scotians, if it helps the middle class and those Nova Scotians who need it.

 

We’ve heard some negativity around indexing of tax brackets, and I just don’t get it. I don’t get the negativity because I know that at one point, every party in this House was advocating for it. Every party in this House was advocating for the indexing of tax brackets, yet when it gets done, it’s almost like it’s diminished. Individuals act like it’s not a big deal for people. If it isn’t a big deal, in other people’s opinions, and it’s not going to do much for Nova Scotians, then why didn’t they do it? Why wasn’t it done 10 years ago? Why wasn’t it done 15 years ago?

 

I hear some members talk about the GST. The GST is a progressive tax. I don’t know much about taxes, but I do know it’s a progressive tax. I had many people call me on that. They said, “Do you know, with the GST and the reduction of the GST, who is going to save a lot of money?” The people who run out and spend $100,000 and $50,000 are going to save more than those working-class and vulnerable Nova Scotians.

 

When it comes to poverty reduction, one of the ways is to not increase taxes. I have not heard a member of that party talk against their own party increasing taxes when they were in power. That had a big impact on Nova Scotians. One of the things we’ve heard is the potential creation of a new tax on people who own land but don’t develop it. I am a little confused about it. What I am confused about is this: If you are somebody who owns a piece of land, who has had that land their whole life, and maybe you want to pass that piece of land down to your children or somebody in a will, is the government going to step in and say to them, “Develop that land now or we’re going to tax you”?

 

What I would also say on that is that if you are adding an extra tax onto that land, do you know who is going to pay for it? I would be willing to bet just about anything that tax is going to be passed down to the people who either buy the homes or rent the places.

 

We talk a lot about other things, like power rates. Power rates are huge. The largest power increases in this province’s history happened over a five-year period, and it happened under an NDP government. That’s a fact. That’s the truth. One of the things I heard was to create a power rate for low-income Nova Scotians. We’ve heard that from that party.

 

I started doing a little bit of research, asking and finding out. One of the comments made was that for every other Nova Scotian who wouldn’t be eligible for it, it would just be a rounding-up error on their bill. When I started talking to the experts and individuals who knew about these power rates - no, no, no, this isn’t going to be a rounding-up error; this is going to be a huge increase in power rates for Nova Scotians. People who know about power rates, people who work for Nova Scotia Power - I wonder, when we throw these policies out there, if there’s research and actual communications. If there is, please table it. Please table what a rounding-up error looks like.

 

Poverty - there’s a whole host of things that lead to how much money people have and their ability. We’ve heard individuals in this House downplay the $150. That would be five months of indexing. At the current indexing rate, that would be five months in their pocket right now - $150. Is there more to do? Absolutely. Am I determined to do more? Absolutely.

 

When we put solutions forward and we help people, our most vulnerable - I wonder if it wasn’t a government of a different stripe that was doing it - let’s just say it was an organization that came in and said everyone on income assistance is getting an extra $150 - if individuals would be as negative. They would not. But because it’s a government and they’re trying to position themselves to be in government, they’re being oppositional. It’s the definition of what the Opposition party is, so I don’t take offense to it. I’m just saying that when we’re doing things, can we just take a non-partisan view of it and say, “Okay, that’s good. Yes, there’s more to do”? Not once have I stood here in my place and said, “That’s good, we’re done.” I’ve never said that, or said, “That’s good, let’s go home.” What I’ve said is, “That’s good, but let’s keep going. It’s good, but it’s a start.”

 

We do know that there are things happening. The other one is around diabetes. People are going to save a lot of money on that. I apologize to the member. I’m not trying to filibuster. I may be getting a little off track on this one, but it’s something that I’m passionate about and I care about. I think every Nova Scotian should care about it because poverty has an impact, not just on a budget line. It has an impact on the health care system. It has an impact on all different aspects of government and life.

 

Again, I will say that we’ve done some really good things, and it’s okay to be on the other side, as the member for Sydney-Membertou did. I don’t know if he said he was going to dance or celebrate or do a backflip - I would pay to see him do a backflip - if the government was going to implement a lunch program. I don’t know the exact words. When he heard that the lunch program was coming, he stood there and said, “That’s great.” He clapped, and he said, “This is a good thing.” I think he actually said he’d vote for a budget. I don’t know if people remember that, but I think he said he’d vote for a budget that had a lunch program in it. So on his second round, if he’s here, I’m going to ask him that question. One of the members is shaking his head yes, so I think he did say that. I think he did say that, so we’ll hold him to his word.

 

Do I think there’s more to do? Absolutely. Do I think people from all corners of this province believe there’s more to do? Absolutely. Again, I will say that I’m going to continue to work on ideas, and we’re going to continue to work with our stakeholders. We’re going to continue to work with people to make sure that our most vulnerable, our working-class and middle-class Nova Scotians - and all Nova Scotians - are given an opportunity to succeed in life.

 

[5:15 p.m.]

 

KENDRA COOMBES: I don’t want to put words in the minister’s mouth, but I think that means he might actually agree with me - that individuals receiving income assistance don’t have enough to live on. I think we can agree on that, I hope. So with that potential agreement that I think I heard from the minister, what I would like to know is: If it’s not enough for individuals living on income assistance to live on, then what was the rationale for keeping income assistance rates so low?

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Before I jump into this answer, I will say that the member did approach me outside of the House about a misunderstanding that I may have had about an email she sent to me last night. I do want to say that she felt that I’d misunderstood her email, and we had a nice long conversation, especially around the Pallet housing. What I will do is stand in my place - when I am wrong, I’m wrong. She felt that I was wrong. She had a convincing argument. I apologized if you felt that I’d misinterpreted you and misrepresented your words. I do apologize for that.

 

I think when we talk about whether I agree that there is more to do, what I would say to the member is that this budget agrees with you. This budget agrees with you that there’s more to do. I would hope that everybody could see that, and that this budget, for the first time in my life - maybe not my life. I’ll be honest with you: I wasn’t much of a political watcher before I got into politics and I’m still not a political watcher.

 

I would like to see this budget pass unanimously. I know that no budget is perfect, and guess what? When you’re in government there is no budget that’s perfect. Even when you are on this side of the House, there is always more that can be done, but we need to work within the confines of what we have and what we can do. What I would say is that this budget is putting people first. It’s putting our most vulnerable first. It’s putting our working class and middle class and all Nova Scotians first.

 

Do I agree there is more to do? Like I said, this budget agrees with you. I hope that - I’ll say it again - if we are chasing perfection, you will always vote no. You will always vote no if you’re chasing perfection. What I would say is that there are a lot of good things in this budget that are going to make massive differences in that member’s community, in my community, in all our communities. I think we need to look at that and we need to see that there are some really good things in this. I would say that I know it’s hard. I know it’s hard sometimes to vote yes for something that’s not coming from your side. I know that there are pressures, but I will say that, again, if you’re chasing perfection, you’re never going to get there.

 

This is a government, and these are MLAs and ministers who are working hard on behalf of all Nova Scotians, and a Premier who’s willing to invest massive investments, historic investments, be it in Remedy and housing and health care. Look at the investments in health care. It’s incredible - a 20 per cent increase in the budget for the Department of Community Services. I can quite honestly say I don’t know if I’ve ever seen that, and there are ideas constantly coming forward.

 

We have more than one session in a calendar year. We have the ability to work 365 days a year on ideas that come forward on things that will help Nova Scotians from one end of this province to the other. I feel like we are evolving, that we are listening. I’ve said this before - you can go back in Hansard - a good idea is a good idea, no matter who it comes from, and that’s what I’m seeing.

 

I will continue to advocate for the people in my community, the people of Nova Scotia, for this department, the people who work in this department, and the people whom this department supports. We will do whatever it takes. I will work 365 days a year. I’m already putting in probably 16 hours a day, and I’m not even the hardest-working person on this side. I’d like to think I am, but I see how some of these other ministers are going. I see how the Premier is going. I don’t know if he sleeps. I don’t know if the Minister of Health and Wellness sleeps, to be honest with you. I don’t think there’s a single question you could throw at the Minister of Health and Wellness that can’t be answered in very detailed answers.

 

These are ministers and these are MLAs who care about their communities. We have an outstanding group of people here who are bringing ideas forward all day long. I would say to the member, and I would say to all members - I’ve said this in the House and I’ve said it outside the House - I’m wide open. We are looking for ideas. We’re constantly evolving and working with our stakeholders. I really do think that the ministerial round table is going to produce incredible things. I think that we are going to hear from our stakeholders.

 

The other thing that we want to do, which hasn’t been done in I don’t know when, is we are going to have information sessions with our frontline workers. We are going to talk to our child care workers. We are going to talk to our IA workers. I’m going to talk to them, and this isn’t going to be a one-off. As much as we in this House feel like - and I include myself - we have all the answers, we have this wealth of information, knowledge and experience right there in the departments, from the ground up. We’re going to mine that experience. We are going to listen to our clients. We are going to listen to the workers and the people who have spent their days and their sweat and tears into this. I do think that we are going to do incredible things. So yes, is there more to do? Absolutely. There’s always more to do. I will continue to work on behalf of every single Nova Scotian.

 

KENDRA COOMBES: I didn’t hear a rationale for keeping income assistance low. I’m not chasing perfection. I’m chasing getting people above the poverty line. That’s what I’m looking for - just to get people above the poverty line because they’re still so below it on income assistance. The minister talked about the $150 top-up. Is $150 extra good for people on income assistance? Absolutely it is. Nobody’s denying that. What we were looking for, what I as the critic for the Department of Community Services was looking for, was to get people above the poverty line.

 

When I was home this weekend, we went for groceries. I think we spent $150 just there. I know people who came out of the grocery store with two bags, and they’d spent over $100. That $150 is not going a long way. That’s why we need to get people above the poverty line. I ask the minister: How far does he think that $150 one-time payment is expected to stretch? Again, what was the rationale for not significantly increasing income assistance?

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I agree. We need to do more. What I will say is that the price of groceries is going up. The price of gas is going up. That $150 after April 1^st, because of the Liberal-NDP carbon tax, won’t go as far. What I would say to the member is that this is all hands on deck. We need the feds and we need the province to work on this.

 

I know the member is passionate. I believe when she stands up and talks. She’s passionate, and she believes in what she says. A lot of things that she says I agree with, but will the member stand in her place today and say that her party, federally, which is supporting the carbon tax - should we have a carbon tax here in Nova Scotia that’s going to go up 17 cents?

 

We’ve heard from members on one side - I think a letter was just sent out, to stop that tax. Well, I haven’t heard anything. The only time we heard anything is when the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board stood in his place and put a resolution on the floor, and they didn’t vote for it. The resolution was to stop the carbon tax, and they did not vote for it. You can check Hansard.

 

I understand the passion. Listen, I am 100 per cent in favour of doing whatever we can for the environment. Climate change is real, folks. It’s real, but I wonder if the member will stand in her place today and say that we should not have that tax. The price of fuel is going to go up 17 cents. Yes, some people are getting that money back, or some of that money back.

 

I’ll tell you, I have a good friend who runs a small business, two vehicles. The amount of money he’s going to be spending comes nowhere near. I would argue that he’s not a big polluter. Yes, he has two trucks, but do you know what else he has? He owns a skilled trade company that we need. We need to build.

 

I will throw that back on the member. Will she stand in her place today and condemn the carbon tax and ask the federal NDP, which is 100 per cent in favour of it - which she’s campaigned with, stood side-by-side with, gone to Christmas parties with, taken pictures with - will she stand in her place today and say that Nova Scotia does not need a 17 cent carbon tax increase on April 1^st?

 

KENDRA COOMBES: I don’t think I really want to get into a debate on a federal issue. I don’t really want to get into a debate with the minister on a federal issue. I’m talking about income assistance rates, which is in the province’s control. I’m asking the minister questions on income assistance rates. That’s in the province’s control.

 

What the feds do, or how our party has spoken about the carbon tax - my leader is on record. I don’t need to discuss it any further. I’m discussing income assistance rates and the fact that they’re very low, and the fact that people on income assistance are living below the poverty line.

 

If the minister wants to go into conversations about carbon taxes and what have you, that’s his prerogative, but I want to talk about income assistance, something we’re in control of here provincially. The minister spoke of it last night, and he has been an advocate - a strong advocate - for indexing income assistance rates. Based on last year’s inflation, a single adult would have seen over $300 from indexation. Vince Calderhead - he was here today - did the math, and it would have been around $382, well over double that $150 top-up.

 

Can the minister explain why the $150 one-time payment was chosen instead of indexing the rates to inflation?

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I didn’t get into the carbon tax or a “federal issue.” It was brought up when the member talked about going to the grocery store and the cost of food. What I will say is that tax has a direct impact on the cost of food. If you want to have a discussion about food, about the cost of living, about all this, we’ve got to have a holistic discussion on what impacts these things. What impacts these things is transportation to and from the farm. What impacts these things is the cost at the farm. What impacts these things is the cost at the grocery store. All these things impact it.

[5:30 p.m.]

 

I know the member said her leader is on record, but they are on record as supporting it and being against it. What it feels like to me is that once they felt a turn, they were against it. They had an opportunity to stand in their place when it was first brought to Nova Scotia, and the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board stood in his place and read a resolution. Two parties in this House voted for that resolution, asking for the carbon tax to be stopped - one did not.

 

THE CHAIR: Order. We are on a fine line within a departmental - we’re really close, so I’d ask our honourable members to rein it back in. Let’s stay on the good side of the line.

 

The honourable Minister of Community Services.

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Chair, the reason why I’m talking about that is because we are talking about poverty rates, about spending, and about things that happen within the department. The truth is that taxes impact all of this. It impacts people and their ability to purchase food.

 

The other thing we heard from the party was that they wanted to take taxes off food in the grocery store, and I’m confused. I do most of the grocery shopping, but I think the only taxes on food in the grocery stores is on things like chocolate bars and pop. Healthy food, and most of the food in the grocery store - maybe they can give me a list - most of the food does not have taxes. Guess what? The price is going up because of the cost to deliver that food to the grocery store.

 

Again, I will say to the member that it is fair to put that question back. If we are going to talk about making people’s lives better and what we can do, we need to have a holistic discussion. I was once told that a non-answer is an answer. If the member doesn’t want to answer the question, I think it’s clear that they support it. All you have to say is no or yes - whether you support it or not.

 

I will ask again. I support doing everything I can, and we’re going to continue to do everything we can. That includes $150 in the hands of income assistance recipients now - not $32 or $38 - $150 now. That includes a lunch program. That includes resources for diabetes. That includes $300 extra per month for people with a disability supplement.

 

I ask the member: Does she support a tax that’s going to drive up the cost for people on income assistance, for middle class Nova Scotians, for working class Nova Scotians, and all Nova Scotians? It’s a yes or no answer.

 

KENDRA COOMBES: In respect to you, I want to keep on going with income assistance, and with respect to those who are living on income assistance, I want to keep talking about income assistance rates. The minister can choose to answer me or not answer me all evening - that’s his prerogative - but I’m going to keep on asking.

 

By not increasing the income assistance rates in this budget for people without disabilities, the minister is essentially decreasing the overall spending power of this population. The minister said this himself last year, when the former minister kept rates frozen. Has the minister changed his mind on this matter?

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I’m not going to use up all the time. I’ll make sure to leave the member some time to finish her line of questioning.

 

What I will say is that I’ve been pretty forthright in what I believe and what I think needs to happen. The member is asking me to answer the question, and at the same time saying I don’t think I should answer a question.

 

She said, “In respect to people living on income assistance.” People on income assistance are not excluded from the cost of the carbon tax. Let me repeat that. The 17 cent increase that’s happening on April 1^st does not exclude people on income assistance. If you were to be respectful, you would answer the question. It’s an easy question. It’s not hard. It’s not a difficult question to answer.

 

I think the question’s been answered. I really do think that the question’s been answered. If we disagreed with this and the increased cost that it’s going to have on clients on income assistance, then we would answer the question.

 

I do want to talk about the investments that are being made. That includes things that impact individuals right across this province, including people on income assistance and child care. We’re continuing to roll out the historic investment in child care. That’s going to put more money in the pockets of Nova Scotians. It started under the previous government, and it’ll continue under this one.

 

I really am looking forward to hearing from our stakeholders, the not-for-profits, and the individuals we deal with on a daily basis. Some of the things that we’re going to ask them and not a politician is: What can we do? What needs to be done? What more can we do?

 

We will look at income assistance rates. We will also look at other resources, whether it’s education - figure out what we need to do to help people break the poverty cycle. I hear it all the time from individuals about breaking the cyclical poverty cycle.

 

We are going to work with our organizations, our experts and individuals to figure out what we need to do to put them in a position where they feel that they can succeed or be at the point where they want to be. That looks different for everyone. That will look different for everyone. My commitment is to review it all and look at it all - look at all possibilities. That’s what we will do. That will take listening to the experts, listening to our not-for-profits, listening to the people whom we depend on every day, and making sure that we put the resources directly into the hands of individuals who need them the most.

 

I look at this budget, and I think it’s great for Nova Scotians. I think it is great for people who need more help, who need more resources. I think it’s one with vision. We see the Minister of Seniors and Long-term Care - I don’t think I have ever seen more. If you don’t believe me, pull it up in Estimates. Bring her up again. I just heard the Opposition say no. We’re seeing historic investments - every department. Then what we hear is: What are you doing? You’re spending too much. Where is this money coming from? What are you doing?

 

We see investments in health care that need to be made, and at the same time we stand in this Chamber and hear criticism of those investments.

 

Housing should have started 15 years ago. Let’s be honest. If 15 years ago there was vision on homelessness and housing, that minister wouldn’t be working 22 hours a day, right? Would we like to build the affordable housing? Would we like to build the public housing tomorrow? Absolutely.

 

I think if you talk to that minister, if you talk to this Premier and you say, Wouldn’t you love to go and cut a ribbon on 200 affordable housing units tomorrow? Absolutely. They would probably say, You know what? No, I wish it had been there for 15 years.

 

Is there more to be done? Yes. Will we do more? Yes. I don’t think I could be any clearer. But in the interim, while we are looking to do more, this is about now and the future. While we are concentrating on the now, we can’t take our eyes off the future, and while we are concentrating on the future, we can’t take our eyes off the now.

 

Do I want to do more? Yes. Will I do more? Yes. I hope that when we do more, the members who have been critical and criticize stand up for just a quick, fleeting moment of time and say, That was good. Congratulations.

 

I doubt we’ll see it. I think the member from Sydney-Membertou is one of the first times I have ever seen that happen. I think we are trying to clarify if the member was going to vote for this budget because there is a lunch program in it. We think he did say that. (Interruption) No, I did not. No, I did not. (Interruption)

 

THE CHAIR: Order. Less hollering, everybody. Let’s take ‘er back, okay. Order.

 

The honourable Minister of Community Services.

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Thanks for getting this bunch under control, Chair. I appreciate it. (Laughter) I do appreciate it.

What I will say to the member is that I know there is more to be done. I do appreciate her input. I’m glad I was able to clarify the misunderstanding.

 

THE CHAIR: Order. That would conclude the round of questioning for the New Democratic Party.

 

We will take a very, very brief recess. We are now in recess.

 

[5:44 p.m. The committee recessed.]

 

[5:47 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

 

THE CHAIR: Order. I call the Committee of the Whole House on Supply back to order. Debate continues.

 

The honourable member for Sydney-Membertou.

 

HON. DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I don’t know if I am going to use the whole hour or not. Some of my colleagues may have some questions. I do want to address one thing. I kind of caught a piece of the debate between the minister and the NDP. We live in a political world where we’ve seen a lot of debate about particular policies that may have been implemented by previous Progressive Conservative governments or Liberal governments. We have that back and forth all the time.

 

But I’ve got to say to the minister who has been a longtime friend for years: For him to use the messaging of the carbon tax - knowing what I know, knowing the narrative that he knows, talking about uniting Liberals, being on the stage a week before he crossed the floor. I get that the other members can use that. He can’t use that.

 

I know I am going to get back to the Department of Community Services - this is what we’re talking about - but it’s important. He knows the history. He knows exactly what happened. He was in the room for those conversations. My advice to him, as someone who has known him as long as I have - I expect that to come from some of the other members of the government side - I think that devalues him because he knows the difference. I’ll leave it at that. Thank you for that because it came up in the debate before.

 

There were other things that were talked about. He gave credit where credit was due on child care, which this government likes to celebrate when it’s convenient and doesn’t when it’s not convenient. I actually watched that in Estimates the other night. I was kind of watching staff - who work day and night to support those kids, in my opinion - listening to the leadership of the department say that it wasn’t a good deal, which is hard for me to believe. It doesn’t hurt me. It was the staff who were there who worked day and night on that deal. Anyway, I don’t want to go too far down that road.

 

The point for me is that when I hear that kind of messaging, he’s not in a position like the rest of his colleagues to say that. He’s not, because he supported all of it. He knows we never supported a carbon tax. He knows that. I’ll leave it there.

 

We’ll back to DCS. I do appreciate the conversation I had earlier because it was an important conversation. It was about supporting families that have a lot of questions and are going through a lot of transition. As the minister said, it’s a time of transition for the department. You’re into building supports for inclusion in our community. There are legal reasons behind it, too, as the minister talked about. Again, I think there’s a lot of conversation. I hope I can be part of it as we move forward.

 

One of the big aspects of this - the minister talked about it last night - was the child and youth office. That’s important. That’s something for which people have advocated for years. Mind you, I thought there would be a separate bill for that coming forward. This is kind of lumped in with a number of other bills. We learned that one is not going forward today in the FMA. That’s what happens when you have these bills like this, and you don’t hash them out. Things will end up being pulled out as a result.

 

Specifically on the child and youth office, as a caucus, we fully support the implementation. It’s largely, as we all know, coming out of the recommendations from the Nova Scotia Home for Colored Children. I give a lot of credit to the previous government, and this government is moving forward on those recommendations. As I said, the creation of the office was put in the back of the FMA, and there are really no details in the department budget. I’m going to ask a few questions on this. I could ask them all. I could ask a bunch of questions, and the minister can happily answer them all, if he wants.

 

Why is there no budget line in the department’s budget for the new office? That’s one. How many FTEs will be assigned to the new office? That’s the second question. We’re looking for the timeline of when the new office will be up and running. What is the office’s mandate, and what specific programs and services will it provide? I’ll leave it at that for now.

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I appreciate the preamble and the comments. In my head I’m saying, “Don’t bite, don’t bite, don’t bite.” I’m going to bite.

 

The former Minister of Energy and Mines did a great job and voted in this House against the carbon tax - I saw it - yet as someone who also voted against the carbon tax, I don’t have the right to stand on my feet and say that I’m against the carbon tax. That makes absolutely no sense. We stood on that side together and railed against the carbon tax, did we not? Nothing’s changed. This whole narrative, that things might have changed - nothing’s changed. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: I have not made it personal. I will never make it personal. The only time it has been personal is when there have been a few shots coming my way. I will never make it personal. I have a lot of love and respect for the people across there. I have a lot of love and respect for the people over here.

 

I think I have been very clear when it comes to cost of living. I think I have been very clear when it comes to inflation. I think I’ve been very clear when it comes to this department, what I believe in, what we believe in, and the impacts those things are going to have. In fact, I know the member got defensive, but I actually was complimentary toward him, very complimentary. You’re damned if you do, and you’re damned if you don’t.

 

I will say that the theme of the day is consultation. I was a youth in care. Yes, I have a lived experience, but I am by no means an expert. The department has a ton of people in here who work within the confines of this. What I will say to the member is that we are going to get this right. That’s what I said when the media questioned me about a budget line, and they questioned me about the FTEs, and they questioned me about all that. I said, “We are going to get this right.”

 

The member was correct when he said that people have been asking for this for years and years and years. Well, it’s here. And we are going to work with organizations like Phoenix. We are going to work with organizations like HomeBridge Youth Society. We are going to work with organizations right across this province that have the expertise, and we are going to talk to them. We are going to talk to our social workers. We are going to talk to child advocacy workers, because we need to get this right.

 

I know that there are offices across Canada. I think we are the last one in Canada to have this framework, to set up this office. The last one. Not anymore. We are here. We are done. It’s going. It’s moving forward. We did it.

 

He’s right, the devil is in the details, and we are going to get those details right. How much is the budget? The budget will be enough to support the office. How many full-time employees will it need? When we talk to the experts, when we do the consultation, when we talk within the department, we will have those details.

 

What I will say to the member and all members here is that we’re not going to hide this. This is going to be done in plain sight. As we find the information we need, and as we form the details of what this is going to look like, we will be open and transparent about it.

 

We had to get it off the ground. We had to get it out there. I know the member said, Well, it’s in the FMA. I would say to the member: Does it matter if it’s in an FMA or if it’s by itself? I can read. I read the FMA. I saw the details in it. I don’t think it matters. If they want to stand up and debate it, they can debate it. There’s lots of time in this House to debate. We know that. We are not preventing debate and discussion on that. In fact, we’re standing here today talking about it.

 

I would say that once we get the framework up and running, once we know what this department looks like - there are very few people in Nova Scotia who know more people collectively than the people in these rooms. If you know somebody, encourage them to apply. When we have the framework up, when we have the department ready to go, once we do the consultation and get this right, if you know someone, ask them to apply. If you think they’re the right person for this job, tell them to apply.

 

The other thing I will say is that we know this office will have a lot of interaction. They’ll have a lot of interaction with the Department of Community Services. More than likely, there will be reports and some criticism, of course - nobody is perfect. That’s why we’ve said that the Minister of Community Services should not be appointing the individual, right? That would put them in a position that we don’t want them in. Whoever the individual is, we want them to be free to do their job, which is to advocate for children and youth, and not have to worry about consequences and things like that from a department. Not that the department would do that, but the minister, right?

 

[6:00 p.m.]

 

We have collectively probably tens of thousands of years of experience of people on the ground. I would say to the member that it’s one thing for me to say, “Okay, this is what it’s going to look like and this is what it has to do,” but I don’t have an Indigenous lens. I don’t have an 2SLGBTQIA+ lens. I don’t have an African Nova Scotian lens. I have my own personal lens.

 

Children come in all different shapes, sizes, genders, beliefs, and races. I want to make sure that everything is encapsulated into that - that the Youth in Care office, as much as humanly possible, captures the diversity of this beautiful province, and that no child or organization would reach out to that office and feel like they are not properly represented. There’s a lot going into this.

 

I love to stand here today and say to the member, “We’re spending this much money and putting these many . . .” I would love to, but the bill hasn’t even passed. It actually doesn’t exist until the bill passes. That’s the other thing. If you want answers, pass the bill. Let’s get this through to the Law Amendments Committee tonight. Then what we could do is have those stakeholders come in and we could have a discussion in the Law Amendments Committee.

 

From an Opposition standpoint, that’s probably the best thing. I would be like, let’s get this through. Let’s get into the Law Amendments Committee. Let’s get Phoenix in here. Let’s get the College of Social Workers in here. Let’s get all those people in here and have that discussion.

 

The other thing I’ll tell you is that I gave a sneak peek to some of the stakeholders before we announced this - people who have advocated for this for a long time. Not a single person was upset. They were all over the moon, from the IWK to the College of Social Workers. What I said was that we’ve got this in the bill, and now we can move forward. Part of the struggle or the fight was to actually have something in legislation to create this. We were literally the last province in this country to have one.

 

What I would say is that this is a small moment to celebrate, with the idea that everybody can give themselves a quick round of applause - everybody can. The stakeholders, Nova Scotians can do that.

 

Now let’s pivot. Pass the bill. Get to work on creating this office. I don’t know how long we’re going to be in here. Respectfully, as long as it takes on their side, I’m here for it. But if you want the details on what this is going to look like, let’s pass the bill. Once we pass the bill, we can work through this. If the member has individuals he thinks should be consulted, my number hasn’t changed. Give me a call.

 

Let’s be honest, Sydney and Northside-Westmount have different issues than Herring Cove-Spryfield, Dartmouth, Kentville, and other places across this province. Some are the same, some are different. What I would say is that when we’re going through these consultations, when the process starts, it is advantageous for each and every one of you to get involved and be part of this. At the very least, send somebody to be part of this discussion so that your area and your community are represented.

 

Let’s commit tonight - we have some time after Estimates - to get the FMA through to the Law Amendments Committee. Then we’ll have a whole host of people come in, and we can talk to the experts. I’m sure some will be in support, and some will have questions. I think some of the things you want answered - we have to get it to the end. We have to get it passed so we can start this process and really have a conversation about what’s next.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: If you’re building a budget and you’re building a department, you’ve got to kind of know or at least have an estimate of what it’s going to cost. That’s really my question.

 

We all support this. The minister’s right. We all support this, and the FMA eventually will get to the Law Amendments Committee. I don’t know how long we’re going to be here. The Premier said we’re going to be here three months. He also told me he loved every Nova Scotian, so he must love me too. We’ll see what happens. I never thought I would be loved by the Premier.

 

I do want to talk on this theme of youth advocacy. The minister would be well aware of some really great organizations. I’ve used this example with the Department of Community Services before: Chester Borden and Whitney Pier.

 

Chester is a good friend of mine. DCS and the Department of Communities, Culture, Tourism and Heritage, over the years, have really seen the value of the important work Chester does for not only for kids in the Pier; he has that after-school program all over the CBRM. Most people know Chester. I saw the deputy minister smile when I said his name. He’s great. He’s one of our best advocates we have for youth, not only to support them with the programs but also for the message in the lessons Chester teaches.

 

The Chesters of the world - there are great organizations in Glace Bay and in Halifax, like the Police Boys and Girls Clubs, and these organizations are feeding our children every day. They’re providing after-school programs, they’re providing activities, and they’re giving kids a safe space.

 

Unfortunately for some kids, as we all know, school is one of their safest places to be. That is also great, because as the minister said, a lunch program is coming, so they’re going to get two square meals at school, which is fantastic. When they leave school, their mentors and their parent figures, a lot of times, are the Chester Bordens. They’ll go to the Boys and Girls Club, participate in activities, technology, art, music. You name it, Chester’s doing it. But Chester needs more money.

 

This was a question that I asked a couple years ago. The cost of living is tough on families, but when you’re trying to feed - Chester is feeding hundreds of kids. The minister would probably know Chester or at least heard of him. They’re buying the food, and they’re buying the supports, because they’re not going to let a kid go hungry.

 

My question to the minister and the department is: If you want to do something that has immediate impact without having to build an office, as the minister talked about - which is important, but you’ve got to build that office. These already exist. The Chesters already exist. All Chester is saying is that it’s costing more money. They can raise money. We all help to raise money for the activities for the kids, but it’s the day-to-day operations of these organizations that are tough.

 

A lot of the grants they can apply for through government - it was the same with us, and I’d make the same argument if we were on that side - are specific to activities or specific to infrastructure like heat pumps.

 

My colleague here from Dartmouth was the minister of the Department of Communities, Culture, Tourism and Heritage. I give him a lot of credit because he really helped Chester build the new building for the kids and the parents in the surrounding area. It’s the operational costs that these organizations are really struggling with. The time has come to take a look at some of that stuff.

 

My question is: Is the department looking at these organizations and saying, “They already exist. They’re supporting hundreds of kids. They’re feeding our kids, but stuff costs more money. The day-to-day stuff costs more money.”? Are they looking at increasing the budgets they provided at DCS for these wonderful organizations?

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Chester is an incredible person who does incredible work at the Boys and Girls Club. I will say that there is some extra funding coming to the Cape Breton Boys and Girls Club. That might be breaking news. I would tell him to check the mail, but I think they’re already aware of it. I wanted you to know we support those organizations, and we continue to respect the work they do. We know that without them - quite frankly, I don’t know where we’d be. I have a Boys and Girls Club in my community. They do incredible work.

 

The human resource in these organizations - some of it is being used up with writing grants, as every member in this House knows. The conversation we are starting to have with our organizations is around what we can do to ensure that those people who are writing grants - who should be doing the frontline work, who are there for the frontline work - get back to where they should be, or want to be, which we feel, and we all should feel, is a better use of their time and would have a more impactful experience on the lives of individuals in our communities.

 

We will be talking about funding formulas for these organizations. That’s something that I’m very passionate about. I want to make sure that those individuals are - let’s be honest. These organizations are paying people to do a lot of the frontline work and the work that really needs to be done, whether it’s a family resource centre or the Boys and Girls Club of Cape Breton. Some of their time - a lot of their time - is being consumed by writing grants. What ends up happening is that it has an impact on frontline services. They either have to hire someone new or sometimes struggle to figure out how to do the human resource side of these programs.

 

We are sending some extra funding out to organizations. I would dare to guess that most people in this room have organizations in their community that are going to receive some money in the near future. We realize the importance they have.

 

I have a lot of friends in the not-for-profit sector who work. They’ll tell you that for every dollar government gives them, they stretch it 10. They stretch it to 15. We want to take a little bit of that stress off them and get some extra money in the hands of Chester and the Boys and Girls Club so they can do what they do best, and that’s help the kids and take care of the kids.

 

The member can rest assured that we appreciate the Boys and Girls Clubs of Spryfield and Cape Breton. I would assume that, once we start reaching out to these groups around the ministerial round table, I would hope that the member would encourage - and I’m sure he will - the Boys and Girls Club of Cape Breton to be in communication with the department and the minister on these things, and have some direct and routine communication. You’re only as good as the information you’re getting.

 

I would love to be in Northside-Westmount every other day, but if I’m not hearing from the member and the non-profits on the ground, then I don’t know what’s happening. If the department is not hearing from them, then we can’t tell. What I would say to you and all members is when you talk to these organizations, let them know to call, to reach out, to talk, to be part of the round table. We are going to send out a little more, help out a little more, show our appreciation, but also make sure that they’re part of the solution - continually part of the solution.

 

[6:15 p.m.]

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: In that journey, when you do that, the dollar amount is one thing, but the flexibility around the grant is important. As we’re talking back and forth about this, this was a challenge when we were in government. I remember the minister and I talking about it when we’d go after every grant that existed.

 

There was always that issue around - foundationally, there were grants for a whole bunch of stuff, which the minister has talked about, but it’s that flexibility around the operational costs. That’s where organizations are really feeling the pinch, especially now with the cost of electricity and food, and the cost of a lot of the day-to-day stuff that they would need to do to support kids.

 

Keep those other grants coming. They’re great. You want a Ph.D. in getting grants, the two guys who are talking right now probably could give you one. We went after everything. That’s what you do. There are lots of grants out there to support, but there was always an issue around operational costs. It’s a tough one because once you go down that road, you’ve got to make sure - because it can be open-ended and there’s a whole lot that you need to think about with it.

 

That’s really where people are struggling right now. Power rates went up again. Food prices have gone up again. The cost of furnace oil is going up again. We all disagree with it, but the reality is that come April, these organizations are going to pay more for furnace oil, and they’re going to pay more for this and they’re going to pay more for that. That is money that’s taken away from kids. It’s frustrating for me too. We both agree. I don’t get it.

 

Anyway, I’ll leave it at that. Think about the operational costs. Put that in your conversations. I’m going to pass my time over to my friend and colleague, the member for Northside-Westmount.

 

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Northside-Westmount.

 

FRED TILLEY: Thank you, Minister, for taking a few questions. My colleague left me a bit of time here. Thanks to the staff as well.

 

I’m going to jump right in. I just want to piggyback a little bit on the member for Sydney-Membertou and talk about some of the organizations in my community. One organization that’s been around for a long time is Community Cares Youth Outreach. I’m sure you’re familiar with Dorothy Halliday and her crew at Community Cares. They’ve done a lot of work in the community around youth and young families. I’m glad to hear the minister say that he’d love to come to Northside-Westmount. I definitely want to get you a tour of Community Cares and a couple of other organizations I’ll talk about in a minute.

 

The problem that Community Cares has faced over the years - and when I was on the school board, I worked with them to get them a surplus school as their building. They’ve spent a lot of time and raised a lot of money to repair that building. They spend a lot of time going from grant to grant to grant, from program to program to try to sustain the operation that they have.

 

Most recently, there was a program based out of there - Northside Star Rising - that I believe has moved over to Glace Bay. I would love to see some sustainable funding for organizations like that. I’m just wondering if there’s any movement from the department, or thoughts about providing sustainable funding to some of these vital organizations.

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: If the member is okay, I just want to quickly address a comment - one of the questions that came from the member for Sydney-Membertou. The grant that the organization will be receiving will be for addressing social determinants. It’s very open-ended. It will allow the organizations that are receiving these grants, this money, to have a lot more flexibility so it’s not as rigid. As the member is keenly aware - he knows these organizations in his own community, and he knows what they do best, and they know what needs to be done in these communities.

 

What I’ll say to the member is: We, as a department, are going to accept your invitation. Hopefully, after the House rises, we’ll come up. We’d like to do a tour. We’ll figure out who’s best to come up, but I love Cape Breton, so I’ll come up and we’ll do a tour of these organizations.

 

We do know that we fund them about $200,000 annually. They did receive a one-time grant for $250,000. All that stuff, again, is fantastic work, great work. We’ll come up and meet this organization. I will personally meet with the organization, and we’ll meet with other organizations so that we can have that personal conversation and personal touch, and figure out what needs to be done - not just with that organization, but all of them.

 

I do fundamentally agree and firmly agree: We talk about resources, the human resources when it comes to non-profits and these organizations, and it’s very precious. If we are using the experts, the child care experts or the food bank experts and all of these different experts - instead of doing what they’re supposed to be doing, which they were trained to do and hired to do, if they’re writing grants all the time, then that really takes away.

 

One of the ways I think we can help alleviate some of the workforce pressures on these organizations is actually figuring out a way to give them the resources they need so that those individuals are doing what they were trained to do and what they were hired to do. I’ve heard this since before I was in this position. I talked to many organizations, and what they’ll say is, We had to hire a 0.5, or we had to hire a part-time person, or we had to hire this person, to make up for the gap of so-and-so who is supposed to be doing the frontline work but has to write grants.

 

What I will say is - and I’ll repeat - the grants that are coming through are for addressing social determinants, so it gives the flexibility of these organizations to allow them to spend it where they need to spend it and how they need to spend it. But we’re coming to Cape Breton.

 

FRED TILLEY: That’s great news, because Community CARES and other organizations - if we get in contact, we’ll line you up with lots of organizations to meet. They’ll be happy to plead their case and showcase some of the work they’re doing. In my community, there are two great programs that are run for youth. You may be aware of Clifford Street Youth Centre and J-Street Community Space in North Sydney and Sydney Mines. They’re doing all kinds of great programming for youth and providing that wonderful, safe environment for the kids. I’m sure they would be happy to see you, as well, and have a tour.

 

Just switching gears a bit, I want to talk about the Department of Community Services office in North Sydney. They have been a fantastic resource for a new MLA coming into the community. My community has a significant amount of poverty and a significant amount of childhood poverty. The statistic that gets tossed around in Cape Breton is around 36 per cent. I would argue that my riding is higher than that. All across the riding, we have issues with poverty. Things like the school lunch program are helpful from the budget.

 

On individual case work - working with the Department of Community Services out of North Sydney, they answer every time we call. If they don’t have the answer, they find it for us. Nine times out of 10 they’re able to come up with a reasonable solution for the constituent. I want you to pass on to them, for me, that we’re very happy with the staff.

 

That being said, we get a lot of issues around the process where they have to call the 1-800 intake, confusion around bank statements, and what it takes to qualify. Are there any plans to make some more localized work for people to streamline that admissions process in the Department of Community Services?

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: There’s a bit of both sides of news here. The organization we were just talking about - we do fund them. It’s actually around $205,000 a year - around $200,000. The $250,000 one-time grant - I read that wrong - was for a different organization. I apologize. When we go up there, maybe we’ll bring the cheque. I’m just joking.

 

Honestly - all fun aside - I do look forward to coming up, meeting with them, and seeing what we can do. We’re wondering if you’ve been in the office - if you’re hiding in the corner and hearing conversations - because what we are doing is moving the resources back into the local offices for intake. The 1-800 number will still be there, but we are going to start localizing these things to help speed up the process.

 

I would argue that that office is one of your greatest resources, but I would argue your CA is probably your best resource. I don’t know if most people are aware, but my CA and your CA were, and hopefully still are, quite close. As MLAs, even though we’re five hours or so apart, we do face a lot of the same issues. Obviously, I’m very empathetic and very understanding.

 

I do think that having the ability to intake locally like that is going to make a big difference in your office, and it’s going to make a big difference in the community. I do apologize for reading the grant wrong, but we’re still going to come up. We’re going to have discussions, and we’re going to see what we can do to help strengthen our partners and our not-for-profits. I would say the other piece is pretty good news for you and for your community.

 

[6:30 p.m.]

 

FRED TILLEY: I thank the minister for that. I was excited to go home and talk about the big grant that was there. We’ll figure all that out, but it’s great to have that communication between organizations.

 

My next question is around regions and streamlining of resources. We have a lot of homelessness in the area. Our housing list is super-long. The rent supplements are great, but many people are not eligible for them because there’s nothing to rent.

 

I guess my question is: How can the Department of Community Services work with the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing to better help communities like mine meet some of the issues that we’re facing right now with regard to homelessness? I think I heard the member for Annapolis talk about the way homelessness works in his area, and it’s very similar to mine. Generally, homelessness - when you look at the criteria for housing, they don’t fit that because they’re staying on someone’s couch, or they’re crashing in someone’s basement, but it’s not sustainable that way.

 

I’m wondering, from a Department of Community Services standpoint, if you’re seeing across the province - and in Cape Breton in particular - increased asks around housing from constituents, and if there are any plans on new programming or new ways to help people access a stable home?

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: One of the things we will do when we come up is that we’re going to bring someone who is working on homelessness within the department. Maybe we can get someone from the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing to tag along, and have an open, fulsome discussion with yourself and individuals you think should attend the meeting to talk about the challenges that are facing your community and throughout CBRM. There’s a lot that we need to digest. Obviously, homelessness and housing is a top priority, and the investments need to be there.

 

What I will say is that we are going to continue to work with the organizations in community. The solutions have to come from in community. Quite honestly, I look forward to working with you and your office. It’s no different than some of the issues we were dealing with here in the HRM. One of the local MLAs who was impacted - we talked non-stop. We had lots of communication. There were times where maybe it went a day or so and we weren’t able to communicate because we were trying to deal with some stuff. But I firmly believe that in order for these issues to find the best possible solutions for individuals, we deal directly with the leaders on the ground, whether it’s the organizations or the MLAs. They know their communities better than anyone.

 

What I will commit to today is that we’ll come up and bring a full team up there. We’ll have these discussions, and work with you and individuals in your community whom you feel should be there to find the solutions.

 

FRED TILLEY: Thank you, Minister, that’s great. Switching gears a little bit. In my former role at the NSCC, I was the principal at Marconi Campus. We had a large percentage of our population who were funded students either through the Department of Community Services or Employment Insurance or one of those particular programs. It was a great way, and there was good communication at the time between ourselves and all of the Community Services workers across the island. I’m trying to remember the statistic, but it was somewhere around 30 per cent or more of our students who were funded students. I think the idea behind Community Services and the strategy is to help people find their way to a sustainable life.

 

I guess my question is around that transitional period - funding for education. Has the budget increased from the Department of Community Services? Approximately - you may not have the information today - what would be the number of Cape Breton students who would be funded for post-secondary?

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Yes, the budget increases year over year with this stuff. What I will do is get you the specific numbers for - I’m assuming the CBRM and your region, and your community. We’ll make sure those land on your desk.

 

I will say that this is something that I’m committed to and I think this Premier and this government are committed to. What I think I’m hearing from you is: How do we break the cycle of poverty? How do we break the cycle?

 

We all know individuals whose family has been in that for generations. I have generational poverty in my own family. I think most people do to some extent. We know that one of those ways we can do that is giving education an opportunity.

 

One of the things that I really want to work on is - again, the theme is consulting, but giving people choices too, not saying, Here are the opportunities and you’re taking them. We want to be able to say to people: What is it that will inspire you? What is it that you want to do, and how can we get you to that? That isn’t just around the education part; it’s also a resource part, and making sure that we work with individuals. Poverty - I just don’t want to say that it impacts everyone the same way. I want to look at this as individuals.

 

What I mean by looking at it the same way is how we get people out of poverty, and how we transition them to the next part of their life and where they want to be. That looks different for everybody. It really does. So what we want to do is make sure that people have choice.

 

We will get you those numbers. We’ll get them before we come up, so you’ll have them in your hands. I agree wholeheartedly that this is about finding ways to help people with education, help people with experience, help people get to where they need to be in life - and I’m all on board with that.

 

FRED TILLEY: I am going to pass the rest of my time over to my colleague, but I just wanted to say that one of the most rewarding things as a post-secondary educator was to witness that student who was the first person in their family - I was the first person in my family to go to post-secondary - to get their adult high school diploma at our campus, then go on to take another program, and then go on to do something at university. It’s very powerful. I hope that we don’t lose sight of that. We should even look at funding people beyond community college and university.

 

I’m going to pass over my time to my colleague from Clayton Park West.

 

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Clayton Park West.

 

RAFAH DICOSTANZO: I just have a quick question for the department, if I may. I have an amazing constituency assistant, and she’s been working for almost a year and a half now with Saint Benedict Parish church. I’ve spoken about it and given a member statement on that for the amazing work that they do. They’ve actually spent over $100,000 on helping the poor people. We have people in their trucks at the library. We have people at the church and homes. They’ve done so much for them, but they’re not equipped.

 

I think we wrote to the department. We would like for the department to have some kind of program where they send a social worker to help them. My assistant meets with them once a week regularly to help them, but everything with the Department of Community Services will take three to six months to register them for whatever. Most of them need rent for that first month, they need a heat bill - they need this. So they will give them that cash just to get them through that three to six months until we can help them through the department, but it’s very hard for us and for them to do that work.

 

We would like the department to help us, or to have somebody from the department to help the churches that are helping the poor. Is there something? Are you thinking of that? What is available?

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I want to thank the honourable member for the question, and all constituency assistants across this province. It’s not an easy job. We know that. What I’ll do is, if you don’t mind, we can take this offline a bit. I’ll have my senior advisor reach out to you and we’ll have the department contact your CA and we’ll work around what’s needed.

 

Three and a half minutes isn’t a lot of time to get into this, so what we will do is have a conversation and figure out what exactly the community is looking for. Then we’ll have either you or your CA, whichever you want to do, connect directly with the department, and we’ll figure out what we can do on a resource side.

 

RAFAH DICOSTANZO: Thank you to the minister. Yes, this has already started. We have reached out to the assistant, and we’ve informed you. We are looking for help for the church, and for all other churches who are trying to help the poor. I think there should be some kind of program to help churches and learn from what has been happening with Saint Benedict Parish church. They’ve done an incredible job, but let’s help them with a contact person, a social worker who can teach them how to do things right and not to have any liability issues.

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Obviously, I know Saint Benedict Parish church, and I know a lot of people who are there and the great work they do. We will commit to - you obviously have the close connection, so we’ll make sure my SA will reach out to you directly, and you can connect them with the people you feel need to be connected to.

 

RAFAH DICOSTANZO: I think I’m done. I got the answers. He wasn’t as long as I thought he would be. It’s the first time - very unusual. (Laughter)

 

THE CHAIR: I believe that concludes questions from the Liberal Party. We’ll move on to our NDP colleagues.

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I mean, it’s two minutes, but I do want to say that I realize there are a lot of issues all of us face. To be frank, most of the issues we face deal directly with the Department of Community Services or the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing. From my standpoint - from the Department of Community Services - just a phone call away. I mean that - just a phone call away.

 

If you don’t want to deal directly with me, that’s fine. I think most people in this place know Kelly, my CA. Kelly’s incredible. If you want to deal directly with the department, we can get you Jordan’s number. If you have those issues, call us, and we’ll make sure that we do everything we can. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: When it comes to poverty, when it comes to housing, and when it comes to homelessness, it isn’t about politics. It’s about helping those individuals.

 

[6:45 p.m.]

 

We see places like Saint Benedict Parish church really go above and beyond. We know that. They do. They’re not doing it for recognition. They’re doing it to build a better community. When you see organizations like that, it really means a lot. When you first stood up - I’ve known you for a long time now - I could feel the frustration in your voice over this, so we will make sure Jordan touches base with you. He’s up there right now, and he’s probably taking notes as we speak, but we’ll make sure he touches base with you. If you don’t mind, is it okay if I give him your cell number?

 

RAFAH DICOSTANZO: Yes. I’d be happy. We’ll connect him with the members at the church who are working. There are other churches that are doing it, so I think you should take this as not just one church but all the churches and how we can help them to do your work - or to help you.

 

THE CHAIR: Order. That concludes the Liberal round of questioning. We’ll move on to our NDP colleagues.

 

The honourable member for Cape Breton Centre-Whitney Pier.

 

KENDRA COOMBES: I want to delve into some child welfare issues. I want to start with some staff issues within child welfare. I’m sure the minister is now aware, even though he’s new to the role, that a labour management committee has been struck in DCS, due to issues of bullying in the department. Staff issues - more staff are out on leave or taking some breaks and absences due to bullying in the workplace, surprisingly, and not the job itself.

 

I’m just wondering, what is the minister’s plan? Is there a plan in place from the minister to ensure that real positive results come out of these LMC meetings? They’ve been going on for quite some time now.

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Obviously, any type of workplace harassment or bullying is unacceptable. It’s just not acceptable, quite frankly. I did run into Sandra Mullen the other day on the street. We had a quick conversation. She was with Holly, and I’ve known Holly for a long time. We used to work together at the phone company back in the day. I gave Sandra my phone number, and I told her we can have these discussions, we can sit down - whether about this or something else. Again, I want to make sure the direct line of communication with Sandra is wide open.

 

Being on this side of the House and being where I’ve been throughout the years, one of the people whom I look to for advice a lot is Jason MacLean. Jason and I are really close. We’ve been close for a long, long time. He’s obviously moved on to other things, but just because you don’t always agree doesn’t mean that you have to avoid people.

 

Sandra has my number. I’ve offered to sit down and meet with her and have these conversations. She has a big responsibility. She is in charge of helping thousands and thousands of people. These are people who are very important to the department and they’re very important to me. These are the people who literally save lives, they shape lives, and I have a deep appreciation for every single one of them. If at any point they’re being harassed or bullied, then that needs to be dealt with immediately. That is one of the reasons why on Day 1, what I said was that once the House rises, we are going to have multiple direct meetings with our frontline workers. I want to hear directly from them.

 

When I say “frontline workers,” I do know - I’ve been in lots of environments in my life. I’ve been in unionized environments. You and I are two of the few people in this House who have actually been on strike. I think you’ve been on strike. I’ve been on strike. I know it’s not easy to do, right?

 

I do know that there are times when it’s very difficult to have an open discussion when you have management, or you have positions of authority there. What I’m going to try to do is just make it so it is an easy, direct line of communication so that they feel comfortable, and they know that as minister, as staff and as management, we have their backs. As long as I’m the Minister of Community Services, I will do everything in my power to make sure those people feel appreciated. One thing that is absolutely truthful about that is that when people feel appreciated, they come to work happy, they work harder, they work smarter, they enjoy their job, and we have an easier time of retention.

 

I want people to know that if they’re in this department, we will do everything we can to make sure that they feel appreciated. I really actually do thank you for bringing that forward, because it was just a quick conversation. Sandra and I had that five-minute conversation. It wasn’t long, we didn’t get a lot to get into it, and so the lines of communication will be opened up to her and everyone else.

 

KENDRA COOMBES: Thank you, and I’ll get you the cell phone number of the president of Local 1. I know them very well.

 

Staying inside child welfare, there has been a new approach created in child welfare: the Mockingbird Family Model approach. I had reassurances from not the previous minister, but the minister before that, because the previous minister did not get to Estimates. I had reassurances that foster parents, under this new approach, would not be doing the work of case aides or access workers. They’ve been changed, and it’s a very complicated process, but their areas of expertise have been changed. I was assured that foster parents would not be doing any transportation or monitoring of visits, but I have been hearing from across the province that that has not been the case - that foster parents are being asked to do visits or do transportation.

 

I just want to have this clarified by the minister. If he can’t do it today, then he can give it to me in an email, in writing, at some point in the next couple of days.

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I’m going to take a few moments on this. I am truly not filibustering you, but this is obviously something that’s near and dear to my heart.

 

Even before I was a minister, I spent a lot of time with the Federation of Foster Families of Nova Scotia. I used to attend all their AGMs. I’m going up to Sydney for the next AGM. I’ve spent a lot of time with leaders within the foster family community. Maureen Wickwire was one. I don’t know if the department is aware of who she is, but Maureen has since retired from being a foster parent and has had hundreds and hundreds of kids go through her house.

 

I look back on my own personal experience with one of the families in particular - Ruby Nieve. Ruby has long since passed away, but I would dare say that a thousand kids went through that home. I have to explain why I say this, but one of the things that they did, which I thought was really brave, was that they were a home for emergencies. They would take kids overnight, and they would take different situations where it was just 24 hours or 48 hours, and at times it was very disruptive to the family nucleus. They were doing it because they cared, and they did it because for them it was the right thing to do.

 

I do wish that there were more foster parents out there. That’s something I’m going to work on in making sure that they feel supported. This is the absolute truth: Every time I find out that someone’s a foster parent, whether I’m knocking on doors or it’s just randomly meeting someone, I hug them. I hug them because I have a deep appreciation for what they do, and that it saves lives.

 

In some cases, it puts children in homes for the first time where they see a safe environment, where they see a loving environment, and where they’re able to experience a family nucleus. It means a lot.

 

I’ll find out that answer for you. I will tell you that one of my closest friends - my wife Rena’s best friend’s ex-husband - works as a child protective worker. That’s what he does. Chris and I talk all the time, and we’re close. I see the struggles and the stress of that job. Again, part of what I want to do is have that communication with those individuals on the ground. He’s probably going to kill me for saying his name in Estimates, but there are lots of Chrises out there.

 

It’s difficult. I think it’s difficult because things are becoming more complex. When I was a kid and we went through what we went through - it’s hard for me to shut my brain off, almost as hard as it is for me to close my mouth. (Laughter) I will tell you that what kids aren’t getting right now is a breather. With social media and the constant engagement on cell phones and things like that, they’re just not getting that breather.

 

[7:00 p.m.]

 

There are times when as a child, it’s difficult. Unless you’ve experienced it, it is really difficult to go into a foster home. It really is. It’s not easy. It doesn’t feel natural. When you’re taught as a child to not trust strangers - stranger danger was the big thing when I was younger - and then the next thing you know, you’re dropped into a stranger’s home. It’s not the easiest thing.

 

On top of it, from a foster parent’s standpoint - these are angels on Earth. They really are. They are dealing with incredibly complex issues that they did not create. There are times when they’re dealing with mental abuse. They’re dealing with physical abuse. They’re dealing with destruction of property, but they continue forward, which is an incredible thing to think.

 

It’s hard dealing with your own children and the issues you may have created with them, right? If I didn’t want my son to go to bed at 9:30 p.m. - but then sometimes not being able to fully comprehend where the anger or the rage or the sadness or the depression or the hopelessness or the happiness or the joy - not realizing what the triggers are and where they come from.

 

A lot of times - most of the time - foster parents have their own children, their own natural children or whatever. They have their own biological children. Those situations are difficult because there are complex issues that come into your house. As a foster parent, you’re spending a lot of time - and rightfully so - helping that child, helping that youth, navigate the issues they’re dealing with. You’re taking time away from others.

 

It’s an incredibly complex and difficult thing to be dealing with. At the same time, it’s an incredibly loving thing to be doing. I don’t know what the percentage of parents or individual adults in this province who are foster parents is - even if we could get it to 20 per cent or something like that.

 

Yes, we want to make sure that the time our foster parents are spending is spent in the most productive manner. There will be times, I’m sure, when they have to drive children to different things, obviously. Some of those times, in my own personal experience, are some of the best times - when you’re spending alone time or one-on-one time or just family time in the vehicle.

 

I want to make sure - we want to make sure - that those kids are getting the best possible resources, and that those foster parents are able to use their time in the best possible way. Again, like I said, I’ve attended so many of the federation’s AGMs. I’m still in contact, actually - you know what, I’m not even going to say that. It’s not a bad thing. It’s a little bit personal - someone else’s personal information, so I’m not going to throw it out there.

 

I do want to say that no matter what people take from the next however many hours I’m here, and however many hours I was here beforehand, the one thing I want to get across is how much I personally and the department loves and appreciates foster families and people who foster children. It is one of the most selfless things you could ever do, and I want them to know that they’re appreciated. I want them to know that you have a minister, a deputy minister and an entire department who are behind you.

 

Again, this year, one of the first things I booked was up in Sydney for the federation’s AGM. I’ll be there, and I invite you to join. I invite everybody to come up and join. It is an amazing thing to see a group of hundreds and hundreds of selfless people who are there to celebrate, but to also talk about issues and find solutions.

 

I’ll leave it at this, because I don’t want to chew up too much time. One of the things that I have always taken from the federation - their meetings and the AGM - is that you very seldom hear the word “I.” I mean that. You very seldom hear the word “I” from them. It’s “they,” “we.” When they’re there advocating, they’re advocating for the children, and they’re advocating to create a safe space for those children.

 

Again, I will say that I would encourage every single person here, if you can - we’ll send you the date - come up to that AGM. If you can’t make the Sydney one, the next one that’s here in Halifax, I encourage you to go. The last one I went to was before COVID. It’s kind of nice just to sit back and be a fly on the wall. I think it might be a little more difficult this time, but it’s kind of nice to be a fly on the wall and just listen to the conversations that are going on and listen to the solutions that are being put forward.

 

I just want to assure the member, and more importantly, assure people who are fostering, that I want to make sure of the resources - and that’s not just a financial thing. Time is a resource. Time spent with those children and those youth, I feel, can be and are just as important, if not more important, than just about anything else. I want to make sure that, first of all, they know their time and effort are not going unnoticed and unloved. We will make sure, and I will make sure, that when we’re at the foster family federation event coming up, I will spend as much time as I need with any member and any family who wants to have a conversation on that floor - either in public or in private, it doesn’t matter. I will spend as much time as I need to up there to have those conversations and figure out what we can do that’s best for the children and best for them.

 

KENDRA COOMBES: Just to confirm to the minister, I’m not asking about travel just to travel. I’m talking about travels to visits: court-ordered, mandated visits. That’s what I was asking about. It was guaranteed by the now-Speaker that that would not be occurring. I wanted to confirm that’s still the case because I’ve been hearing that it has been.

 

I’m going to move on, because that was a lot of time spent on answering a question that didn’t get answered. On the Office of Child, Youth & Family with regard to the commission, I’m wondering: Where is the budget line for this office? I’m going to ask a few questions because there has been a lot of time eaten up here. Where is the budget line for this office? What is the timeline for the implementation? When will it be up and running?

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: One of the things that we touched on earlier was that we have to get this bill passed. We have to pass the bill so that we can start the process for this office. Members can shake their heads all they want. It’s a piece of legislation that we need to get passed so that we can start the process of budgets and timelines. That doesn’t mean we’re not doing any work in the interim. We are going to have conversations. We have had conversations. The department is keenly aware of some of the things that need to happen.

 

Again, on one hand we hear: Consult. On the other hand, we hear: Go fast, go fast. This is one of those things where we’re going to talk to the experts. I know in the past there have been conversations, but we want to make sure that everything that goes into this office is up to date and is best for the children and youth - not best for a headline, not best for a party, but best for children and youth, which is what it’s supposed to represent.

 

What I will say is that it’s important we get this past the finish line. When I had the conversations with individuals from the IWK on up - the people who are the experts on this - they’re ecstatic. What they said was: Let’s get this passed, then we’ll start talking, and then we’ll have these conversations. These are doctors. These were social workers. These were experts who said, It’s amazing that we finally, after 15 years of asking for this, have something to show that it’s going to happen.

 

It is going to happen. I’m going to tell the members that it is going to happen, and it’s going to happen in a transparent way. If you want to know what the budget and the timelines are, let’s pass it. Let’s get it through. I’ll have as many conversations as it takes with that member or any member of this House on timelines, a budget, FTEs, and all that when we’re able to start moving forward with this.

 

Right now, what we have is a bill before the House. Before this bill was before the House to create this office, the question was: When are you going to do something in the House to create the office? When are you going to do something, put something forward? Okay, we did that. We’re doing that. Now it’s like we need all the finite details. I would love to have them all. I absolutely would love to have them all, but I don’t have all the answers, and neither does any member of this House, no matter what they think.

 

We’re going to reach out and have conversations, like I said earlier, with Phoenix and HomeBridge, the 2SLGBTQIA+ community and the African Nova Scotian community, the Indigenous community, and with the IWK. We’re going to try to encapsulate and capture all of it so that any youth or child who goes to that and deals with the child and youth advocacy feels welcome, feels heard. It’s important that we get this right.

 

When I made the phone calls, what I was told was, Get it right. Let’s get this right. Again, I will say to the individuals that once we start to put the framework in place, if there are people they think we should consult with, tell me. Tell us. This isn’t a political decision here. If you think there’s somebody - I don’t care if it’s your partner, your sibling, your campaign manager - I don’t care who it is. If it’s somebody who can constructively be part of the consultation and the conversation, bring it on. Bring it on.

 

[7:15 p.m.]

 

Once we have the framework, the details, and everything in place, if you feel you know somebody who’s ideal and perfect for this, do you know what you do? Get them to apply. Whoever the individual is will probably spend a lot of time in the Department of Community Services and will have a close eye on the department. That’s why we felt it was prudent to not have the Minister of Community Services involved in the appointment of the commissioner. I would never want to put somebody in a position who would potentially have to be critical of me or any current or future Minister of Community Services and have that minister be responsible for them to be in that position.

 

This is very important to me. It was important to past ministers. I want to thank them for their work. This should have been done a long time ago - 15 years ago. Even though we were the last to do it, I’m glad it happened. I’m glad I was able to work with incredible individuals in this department who saw and knew the importance of this position, and a Premier and a government that also saw the importance of this.

 

Sometimes we like to paint certain parties a certain way, and that’s fine. You can do whatever you want, but it was something that has always been extremely important to me and a lot of people. This government did it. I think we should give them a round of applause for it. I think people should be happy that happened. Yes, it’s in the FMA, but if this gets done - and it’s going to get done - should it matter what the name of the bill is?

 

We have lots of time in this House to debate this. We have lots of time in this House if individuals want to make changes to the bill. There are lots of opportunities for that. Let’s get this to the Law Amendments Committee. I’m sure, if we’re in the Law Amendments Committee, not everyone’s going to be happy, but we’ll listen. We’ll listen to what they have to say, and we’ll take it under consideration, but right now, we need this to pass.

 

The general public, when you have these conversations in here about how bills are done, they hear the announcements. I had somebody reach out to me the other day and say, “Oh my god, I’m getting an extra $300 per month on my disability.” I said, “Yes, but we have to pass budgets. We must pass these things. We have to get them through.” They don’t understand that. They ask, “Why is anyone fighting you on that?” They don’t understand the complexity, the differences, and everything that goes into bills and passing things.

 

No budget is perfect. I have been part of a lot of budgets. There’s not a single person in this room who has been part of a budget process on the government side who completely agreed with a budget. I am sure if you went and asked any member who has ever been in government and said, “Are there things you would like to add to that budget?,” they would say, “Absolutely. Here’s what I would like to add.”

 

Right now - I will say it again and again - first, you’re being critical of something that hasn’t even passed yet, so pass it. Second of all, while I appreciate the opinions of everyone in this room, we need to get the views and the knowledge of a host of individuals across this province - not just people in the HRM, not just people in Cape Breton, but right across the province. We need to make sure that it represents the youth of this province.

 

I can just imagine the difference it would have made in people’s lives if this had happened 15 years ago, 20 years ago, 10 years ago. Instead of being critical of it, what I think should be said is: What can I do to help on this? Who can I get involved with this to help? I’ve reached out to people who I know are deeply partisan and associated with certain parties, who said, Let’s go, let’s get this done, let’s work together. I have, and that’s how it should be. We should be able to put all that aside and say: What is it that we need to do?

 

Will there be a budget? Absolutely. Will there be FTEs? Absolutely. Will there be an individual in that position? Absolutely. Will I and this department do everything in our power to get this right? Absolutely. Will we consult with Nova Scotians? Absolutely.

 

KENDRA COOMBES: When you ask a question about the budget, apparently you get yelled at for asking a question about the budget.

 

At the risk of looking for more clarity, I’m going to ask another question on the Child and Youth Commission. The recommendation for the Child and Youth Commission was that it be an independent body. The minister has already stated that he doesn’t want to appoint the commissioner, so that’s good, but does this office fall under the DCS or is it independent? If it’s not independent, why not, when that was the recommendation?

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: What I will say is that it’s not that I’m not trying to give clarity. I think I’ve been very clear on where we’re at in this process and what we need to do to get to the next step. In fact, not only did I say that, but I also said that I am more than willing - if those members want individuals to work on the consultation, appoint people, or help with that, we’re here.

 

Yes, the AG is going to appoint the individual. Yes, we want it, and it will be separate from the Department of Community Services. So yes, the answers are yes. We’ve been very clear about this. I said several times in this House that we need to make sure that they are able to work independently to do their job. I just don’t know how I could be any clearer on that.

 

The only thing that I cannot be clear on right now is the budget, the FTEs, and who’s going to be appointed. I will have no control over who is going to be appointed. We can work on the budget and the FTEs once this bill passes. Once it passes and we have details, I will gladly sit down with that member or any other member of the House to go through this.

 

Again, we have to get this right. As I said to the member for Sydney-Membertou when we discussed this, what that office looks like in Nova Scotia may not be what it looks like in New Brunswick or Newfoundland and Labrador or any other province in this country. We want it to be a Nova Scotia solution. We want it to be reflective of things in Nova Scotia, the issues we face in Nova Scotia, and the people it’s supposed to represent.

 

If you want details on the budget, the FTEs, where it’s going to be, and what location it’s going to be at, let’s pass the bill and get it through. Then things will start to become more and more clear.

 

KENDRA COOMBES: We’re happy to see that it’s going to be independent from the Department of Community Services. I know that I and the member for Halifax Citadel-Sable Island will be more than happy to meet with the minister on this because it’s a subject that we’re both very passionate about. All three of us can put our brains together.

 

The original ministerial mandate letter for Community Services was issued by the government in 2021. The member was not there at the time. He sat somewhere else. It stated that the minister was to “work across Departments to establish a five-year target for the reduction of childhood poverty in the Province.” That was 2021.

 

It’s now 2024 and the rate of child poverty in this province continues to increase, and there is still no provincial plan. I’m wondering if the minister is able to answer a few questions for me on that. What is the cause of the delay, considering that the mandate letter came out in 2021, on this action item? When can we expect a concrete plan to reduce child poverty in this province?

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I’ll be upfront - I didn’t read the mandate letter for the former ministers. I will tell you that I don’t need to read the mandate letter for the minister to know that this department and I - this government - are focused on poverty reduction and helping low-income Nova Scotians, and also helping working-class, middle-class Nova Scotians get ahead in life. A large part of that, I think, is very reflected in this budget.

 

I think the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board will probably stand up for hours on end and discuss all the great things that are happening in his department and across government to help reduce poverty and really help put more into peoples’ hands, but also more opportunities. That’s a big thing too: opportunities and working with individuals, and helping people transition to the next stage. That includes something we all discussed very openly today, which was the Pallet homes. That is all part of it - having a place and space where people can have a dignified, safe place over their head with wraparound services.

 

[7:30 p.m.]

 

Again, I know the member has been very helpful on that. There was a moment there, like I said earlier, where I misinterpreted her email. I did apologize publicly for it. I will say that the member for Halifax Citadel-Sable Island was incredibly helpful when we were dealing with homelessness issues in her own backyard, and not just in her own backyard. I hope she would agree that I was pretty open and relying on her area of expertise in her own community.

 

I do appreciate the collective knowledge when it comes to these things. I think that when we talk about poverty reduction, I don’t firmly believe that it’s just on Community Services. I believe it’s on everybody, departmental-wise, all government and all leaders. The easy one to do is to point to housing, but also to health and education, and to transportation, believe it or not. Having affordable transportation and access to affordable transportation is extremely important - being able to get around. If you don’t have transportation - and that’s something that a lot of communities face across Nova Scotia. We need that transportation to get people to and from - whether it’s a job or whether it’s access to education. These things are important.

 

We heard earlier from the member for Northside-Westmount - I swear, when I see people out the corner of my eye, it’s like whack-a-mole - don’t move. The member for Northside-Westmount talked about the importance of our partnerships and our not-for-profits. We will have a whole host of grants going out the door. What I will say is that these grants that are going out the door from the department were not based on anything political and were not based on anything partisan. They were based on the needs of community and the expertise from the department.

 

We understand this. We understand that when we restrict how some of these grants can be spent, it can really put people into a box - like you can put organizations into a box. So having these grants and some of these grants just to address social determinants really opens up the possibility of dealing with poverty and helping people. It allows these groups and these individuals to be creative and to really use their knowledge of what is happening on the ground.

 

It’s one thing for myself or a government to tell them, Here’s some money and you need to use it for this. I think it’s better to say to them: You know the issues. You know the issues in your community. You are the experts on the ground, and we know that you need funding to help with these issues, and here’s the money. We have a vague - I don’t want to call it vague, but addressing social determinants, and part of that is poverty. How do we deal with poverty? What can we do to deal with poverty? We - myself and other departments - are looking right across this country at other jurisdictions to see if there are things that are working there that we can either partially copy or fully copy. We are open to all ideas.

 

I will say, again, we are open to all ideas. I think, in my first couple of weeks I was dealing with some of the members, including the member for Halifax Citadel-Sable Island. The member brought forward some really good ideas and resources that I would argue was thinking outside the box and was saying that we need to talk to these individuals - and we did.

 

Because they brought those ideas forward, we were able to deal with some issues. I’m proud that we’re able to do these kinds of things. I have an immense amount of respect for people like the member, who brought these ideas forward and said, Hey, you really need to just work on this issue. Forget everything else and look at this issue, and here are some of the things we can do. I’ve said it a million times, I do appreciate that. I do appreciate that member’s help on that issue.

 

That line is open to everyone and anyone because I don’t believe that I or any one person has all the ideas when it comes to poverty. I would say to the member for Cape Breton Centre-Whitney Pier, again, we hear what the issues are in Whitney Pier, but she and the leaders on the ground know specifically where those investments need to go. They know what we need to do as a government to make sure that taxpayers’ money is being spent in the best possible way, giving the most resources possible to the individuals who need it the most.

 

I would say that when it comes to poverty reduction, when it comes to dealing with that issue specifically, we’re working on it. We’re going to continue to work on it. I know that they talk about a five-year plan. To me this is not just a five-year plan. It’s a five-, ten-, fifteen-, twenty-year plan. We’re going to continue to work on it, and anyone who comes after me, I am 100 per cent sure they will be focused on poverty reduction.

 

I do want to recognize some of my colleagues who brought some ideas forward. The member for - you see, I shouldn’t be doing the member thing now because I’m so tired - the member for Glace Bay-Dominion brought some ideas forward. We have members from all parts of this province, not just on this side but that side, who brought ideas forward.

 

We’re going to continue to work and implement those ideas. I will say that some of the strongest feedback that I’ve received is around the diabetic program, and how that’s going to change people’s lives and help people. The money that it’s going to put back in people’s pockets is huge. It really is huge. I don’t know how many members here received phone calls, text messages and emails on that, but I received a lot.

 

This may sound a little out of left field, but the JRTA - the Joint Regional Transportation Agency - and the important work that they’re doing over there around transportation right across this province, including affordable transportation - how to move people in this province from one end to the other, from one appointment to another, and to their jobs, and back and forth - it’s all part of it and it’s extremely important.

 

I still fundamentally believe that indexing the bracket creep is the largest tax credit in this province’s history. I believe that. I believe it’s an extremely positive thing. I think any money we can put in the hands of Nova Scotians is going to do great things. It’s going to do great things, putting that money back in their hands. That hard-earned money back in their pockets will help with poverty. It will help with the inflationary costs that Nova Scotians are facing. These are good things. These are great things.

 

I’m very proud to see the lunch program and have that roll out. It’s going to take some time. You wish you could do everything overnight, but the Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development decided that we’re not going to wait. We’re not going to wait for our federal partners on this stuff. We’ve got to get this done. We know there are children who are getting a healthy breakfast. It’s great to have a healthy breakfast, but guess what? Kids get hungry at lunch, and we just couldn’t wait any longer. Do you know what? We would love - I’m not going to speak for the Minister - but we’d love to see the feds chip in. We’d love to see that money. I’m assuming that, if they did, it probably could roll out a little faster - a lot faster.

 

We have that data now from the breakfast program. We’ve seen the impact that breakfast program has had from one corner of this province to the other. A lot of people here who have worked in the education system, who have children in the education system, or who just generally know the education system, also know that there are kids in those schools who are hungry. Unfortunately, and sadly, that breakfast may be the only meal for some of them in the run of a day - could be their only healthy meal. That’s why when we talk about poverty reduction, taking a very successful program like the breakfast program, not waiting to add that lunch program - that’s now two meals a day that some kids - it’s heartbreaking.

 

Nobody in this House has said there is not more to do. Nobody has said, “That’s it. We’re done.” Nobody has said that everything is hunky-dory and we’re good to go now. What we’ve heard over and over is, “We’ve got to go. We’ve got to get these things done.” In some cases, we’re playing catch-up. The youth and child advocacy is a perfect example. We had to play catch-up to the rest of the country who had this position. Would I like to snap my fingers and have it magically done tomorrow? Absolutely. If any of you have time to talk to staff at DCS, ask them. My texts are flying non-stop. My phone calls are going non-stop. We’re just trying to work, and the staff is trying to work. We know how important this work is. We know how it changes lives.

 

These are caring individuals in this department. I can’t speak for all of them - I can’t speak for any of them - but your heart feels heavy when you can’t do everything all at once and right away. I will pick on the Department of Public Works, because I don’t think I need any roads right now, but what I will say is . . .

 

AN HON. MEMBER: Careful.

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I know. If my road - the Ketch Harbour Road - doesn’t get paved this year, I’m annoyed. I want it done. Of course I do, but there’s always next year. We’ll get that bridge done next year. We’ll get that culvert done next year. Maybe now we’re probably never getting it done. I hope I don’t need a bridge or a culvert. It’s different when you’re in DCS, Health, and some of these other departments where, if these decisions - you wish you could do it all. I’ve met a lot of the staff, and we’re going to go and talk to people who work in this department. I guarantee you that they all will think the same way - that they want more, and they want to do it now, and they wish that they could do everything at once.

 

[7:45 p.m.]

 

I joke about the roads and stuff like that, but when you’re delivering lunch programs - what I would say to every member of this House is to reach out to your federal counterparts today. Right now. Ask for that funding. I know the minister is working non-stop on this stuff. Ask for that funding so we can roll this stuff out quicker, faster - tomorrow.

 

I have not read the mandate letters of the previous ministers, but I don’t need to read them to know what’s important and what we need to do. From the first day that I walked into that office - from the first day I walked into this Legislature: poverty reduction, income assistance, children in care.

 

You can go back and look at my original CBC interview that we did in 2012 where they interviewed a bunch of us - most of the folks in Halifax who were in a potentially contentious and difficult riding. Those are the words I said then. You can go back and look at them. Nothing has changed.

 

Do I wish that we were at the end, and the department could kick up their feet and say we’re good? Absolutely, but we know we can’t. We know that we’ve got to continue to work. We’ve got to continue to work hard. I know that a lot of members in this House represent communities that depend heavily on community services.

 

We will continue to support you, and this department will continue to support you, no matter your colour, because the department does not see red, orange or blue. They see people. They see individuals who need the assistance, and they’ll continue to do that. They take pride in their work. They take pride in the fact that they’re working day and night on poverty reduction; that they’re working day and night to help children in care; that they’re working day and night to help foster families and the adoption process; that they’re working day and night on income assistance; that they’re working day and night on homelessness . . . (interruption).

 

THE CHAIR: Order. That concludes the NDP’s round of questioning. I think both parties indicated that they’re finished with their questions.

 

I recognize the honourable Minister of Community Services with about a minute and a half for closing remarks and to read your resolution.

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I’m going to continue to speak. If I have a minute and twenty seconds, do I have the ability to talk about what I want? There’s no obligation for me to close? I’m going to continue down the path if we have a minute and twenty seconds, unless someone else has a question. I will gladly take a question from someone.

 

I do want to say that I take this job very seriously and so does everybody else. One of the things that I didn’t have a lot of time to touch on was the PATH Program. We kind of gave a little bit of an outline on that. What it’s doing is it’s giving children who are coming out of foster care - who we talked about earlier today when the member for Sydney-Membertou referenced a cliff for a lot of different programs, and a lot of different things where once it’s over, it’s over. The PATH Program will allow a smoother transition. It will give individuals who grew up in foster care and grew up with instability some financial aid for six years.

 

THE CHAIR: Order. The time allocated for consideration of Supply today has elapsed.

 

The honourable Government House Leader.

 

HON. KIM MASLAND: I move that the committee do now rise and report progress and beg leave to sit again on a future date.

 

THE CHAIR: The motion is carried. The committee will now rise and report its business to the House. We’ll take a short recess.

 

[The committee adjourned at 7:49 p.m.]