HALIFAX, FRIDAY, APRIL 29, 2011
COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY
9:26 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Ms. Becky Kent
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I now call the Committee of the Whole House on Supply to order.
The honourable Government House Leader.
HON. FRANK CORBETT: Madam Chairman, we will continue with the estimates of the Department of Economic and Rural Development and Tourism, Resolution E4.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: We have a remaining 33 minutes allotted for the day and we have 15 minutes remaining for the Official Opposition.
The honourable member for Preston.
HON. KEITH COLWELL: Madam Chairman, first of all, I want to thank the minister for committing to providing the information on funding to AESTA, the tourism association that represents Antigonish and the Eastern Shore area, and I look forward to receiving that information.
As I listened intently yesterday to the proceedings here in the House, it was quite interesting. The questions were asked and answered and, indeed, provided me with some information that was quite useful.
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We went through the process, the member for Cape Breton indicated there has been an increase in unemployment in Cape Breton by 4 per cent, and the minister responded that it was due to a recession at this time. The minister also indicated that tourism has flatlined; in other words, no growth in tourism at the present time in the province. That makes sense. Because of the high Canadian dollar, a lot of people have decided not to come here from the U.S. which would typically be a lot of our tourists that would be here over the years. Indeed, that market is gone - and they're still in the midst of a recession and a lot of unemployment and a lot of uncertainty in that country. It has given us a great deal of difficulty here with tourism, and I appreciate the efforts that the staff of the department have been doing to try to improve tourism in the province. Hopefully it will work and the initiatives are here.
We were quite disappointed that the president of Nova Scotia Business Inc. wasn't here at the proceedings. I think it's very important that he be here and answer to the people of Nova Scotia. I'm sure the trip he's away on is very important, but I would have very much liked to have heard, through the minister, what he would have had to say and how that would have affected the proceedings here as we move forward.
As we go through this process and we're nearing the end, we've seen a lot of information put forward. There were some questions yesterday about the credit union loans program, and the department will over time be able to provide us with a year-over-year analysis of exactly how well that program is working. As I said yesterday, it's a fantastic program. It's one that, if anything, should be expanded. I'm sure the department shares that view as well.
I've had several people in my area access that program and it's been very, very helpful. In one case it has ensured the business has been able not only to survive, but grow and hire more people. That's the idea of the program. I look forward to getting that information and I'm sure when the staff has time to really go through it, they're going to be quite surprised about the excellent outcome that program is having. It's something I'm sure the minister can talk about in great detail in the future, showing how well that is working and maybe even looking at a process of expanding that.
I want to talk about some other things here too - I'm probably the only one in this House, I think I am, who was ever involved in product development, marketing, and international marketing and manufacturing. That is a very difficult business, I can tell you. When you have competitors that are so big that their advertising budget is worth more than your whole business and you're competing against them, it's very, very difficult.
When they come from areas that have an advantageous tax structure, advantageous operations that help them proceed much easier in the marketplaces, it's very, very difficult to compete with them and keep up with them. Fortunately we were able to do that and one of my companies was awarded an export achievement award by the then-Progressive Conservative Government, a member of which later became the Premier of the province. So we were very proud of that accomplishment and many other accomplishments we did have.
When I talk about that, you have to understand how difficult it is to operate in Nova Scotia in the environment now. It was difficult then - that was in the 1980s and early 1990s - and now it's even more difficult. If you look at the things that are facing the province - I talked the other day about the MOU and how that's going to change property taxes for property owners, and that will cause a problem for business as well. It will. Every time you put a property tax up that means you're a little bit less competitive for someone in the U.S. and Europe or Mexico, someplace else. It just puts a little bit more of a strain on the financial situation of your company.
Then you tie that in with all the other red tape you have, and fees that you have to put in place, and the very high cost of workers' compensation in this province - and I understand why it's where it is, but the very high cost - it's very, very difficult to do business in Nova Scotia.
Now if you're running a retail operation and you're competing with your next door neighbour who is doing something, well you're on pretty well even ground, but you're not on even ground if you're competing with someone outside this country and, indeed, outside this province. It's very difficult even now to compete with someone in New Brunswick. Taxes are lower, gasoline prices are lower and when you add those things up with a business that typically burns a lot of gasoline or diesel fuel to have their staff travel and do business in the community or outside the province and it costs them more to have goods shipped in and shipped out - when you add all of these things together it's very difficult to do business in Nova Scotia.
It's a very difficult task the department has to encourage business to grow and prosper in Nova Scotia. Without businesses and without businesses exporting out of this province - whether it's technology, hardware of some type of produce from a farm or from a fishing operation - we don't really get more money into our province and if we don't get more money into our province, the economy will stagnate. What will happen is, you can only circulate the money so many times and after you've circulated it so many times, there is no more to fill it in. It's like pumping from a well and never putting anything back in it. If you do it long enough you're going to have a dry well and when the dry well becomes evident, then you're in big trouble.
If we don't change the direction this province is going with economic development and the tax structure in this province and even the training in this province to more address the issues with the industry - I know one large industry now in this province that needs people and can't find them because the community college cancelled the program a few years ago. They've been struggling with the community college to get it reinstated and they'll hire 10 or 20 people immediately; very high pay, very high-tech and, indeed, the training was here in the province before, but now it's gone. Those are the things you really have to look at. I give a lot of credit to the community college, I think they do a great job, and the universities, but they've got to be sensitive to what the industry needs because if you don't work for the industry, industry can't work here. It's that simple, and as time goes on it's going to become more and more obvious.
We see all the call centres closing. Those were good jobs while they were there. They were a filler while it gave us time to get more jobs in place, but you see other places closing. I remember a few years ago Moirs candy factory over here closed. That was a manufacturing facility where they paid very well and the jobs were filled by many people in the community. Those jobs are now gone to Mexico. I never got an opportunity at the time to talk to the executives of the company, but I'm sure we would have found out that property taxes killed them, the taxes in the province killed them and all the other expenses in this province killed them over what they could operate somewhere else. At the end of the day, if you have a product, the product is the same whether you make it here, the U.S., Mexico, China, wherever it is and whoever has the cheapest labour, the cheapest operating costs and everything else that goes with that will get the work, and that's what we're seeing.
We're seeing China really emerge as a superpower again. I would think it's a country we should keep an eye on because we're going to be a have-not country if we don't watch very carefully and get in a position that we can compete, at least on some products and some things in this world. If we don't, we're not going to be able to buy the products of China; we won't have the money to do it, and the provinces and the country will be in dire straits.
So as you go through this whole thing and you see the difficulty in this province of doing business, it's not much wonder the department is having a hard time attracting manufacturing and long-term businesses that will put a lot of money back into the communities in many ways, through the employees. If you get a business - and a lot of people argue about this and they say, well, we don't want this business, they shouldn't come here, they don't pay as much money as someone else or whatever the case may be; we'd rather have a school here. Well, a school is a great thing.
As I've said before - and this is true, as a politician here, elected, and paid by the province, and all the civil servants are paid by the province - we really add nothing to the net value of the province except the things that we can do and influence, hopefully the businesses will come and indeed put their expertise to work, employ people, and export goods out of this province to bring real value and real wealth to the province.
If we can bring real wealth here, then you can see the province and the area prosper, and that's not what's happening today. We're seeing businesses move out. We're seeing businesses that would normally be here that aren't here. I was talking to one company here awhile ago and it was an offshore deal. I asked the question here in the House and, unfortunately, there were two ministers involved, I asked both ministers and neither one of them knew about a $150 million deal that was struck by the previous government to have Nova Scotia content in this offshore program. It was $150 million of guaranteed Nova Scotia content.
Well, a company came in from the U.S., set up an office in Burnside with nobody in it, just a little cubicle with a phone and the phone is forwarded to Newfoundland and Labrador. So when you go through this and see this $150 million, I give credit to Newfoundland and Labrador, they're getting most of the $150 million. The disadvantage here, that company from the U.S. has actually hired people out of Nova Scotia from a company that needed those well-trained employees and moved them to Newfoundland and Labrador. So not only did we lose a contract and the contracts for this job but we've also lost the people. So we're losing top-quality people. These people are highly skilled. We're losing the people as well.
So I don't know whatever happened here but this is serious and this company is, to be polite, very, very upset with this process. So if the minister would sometime like to have a look at this, I can take you to talk to the company, I'm sure you're not aware of this situation, and actually see where this office is that this company has set up. I mean it's unbelievable, just unbelievable, but those are the things that are plaguing us here in the province and I could go on with this for hours and hours. I've got a lot of business friends, a lot of friends in the community who are very, very upset with what's happening in the province, not just with what the province is doing but overall. It's very difficult to get them to stay here, to work here, to hire people and train people, and put money back into our economy.
That's a grave concern for all of us sitting in this Legislature and if we don't pay attention to this and if we don't change the direction we're going in - and if somebody has never run a business, it's difficult to understand how it works. I can tell you after running a business for many years, it's a difficult thing to do. You learn very fast and if you don't learn, you pay, and you pay again if you don't learn again. So it's very difficult. It's very rewarding on the other end of that and it's wonderful to see some products that are sold to other people and other places that get to use them and enjoy them and, indeed, you come home and you have a nice amount of cash that you can spend in the local community. Whatever you spend it on, it doesn't matter but it's in the local community and reinvest in a company and the technology and the people.
So with those few words, I'm going to wrap up my discussion here today. There are so many other things. Again, I would like to thank the minister for answering the questions. I will look forward to that information particularly on those few things I asked for and I'm sure it will be coming forthwith. Thank you.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Hants West.
MR. CHUCK PORTER: Madam Chairman, I had a chance to start the debate off on behalf of our caucus and I'm pleased to have a chance to finish it off. It's a very important department and sitting here thinking about all the debate that we do here, all the different departments that we have a chance to speak with and debate and ask questions of, and probably right next to Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal - and I only say that because the good minister is here and I always enjoy the opportunity to sit with him as well.
But I do want to recognize that the Department of Economic and Rural Development and Tourism is probably one of the, if not the most important responsibilities because they deal with every other department that's going, and I'm not sure that people really sometimes give that the thought that it needs and it doesn't matter if it's finance or fisheries, you're involved in everything. It's all about the jobs in all these areas and I think it's important to recognize that this is extremely important to our province and the success of where we're going and where we may end up in the years ahead.
I know that it's a large task to prepare for budgeting and to come here with your staff and I want to thank you, minister, for that, and your staff as well, to come here and prepare and have questions and answers and the opportunity to allow a one-on-one a little more definitive maybe than some of the things that go on in Question Period. This is a better opportunity, in our opinion, at least in this caucus, and certainly in my opinion to really have what I would call a sincere dialogue about the issues in our areas and in our province.
Just on that, there are a few things I want to touch on, on behalf of our caucus, in stressing the importance of economic development. It's worrisome where we're going. We talk about a number of things, and we talk about jobs in our discussions here. It seems like we're always talking about jobs and it probably doesn't matter who is in government, we're always talking about jobs because it is important to our local economies in each of our regions and certainly province-wide - and in our country it's the top thing right now. We watch the news, I'm sure all of us in this House and others, with a federal election going on, what are the highlights? You talk to anybody out there, it's the economy, it's our jobs and our future, and where we're going to be. It doesn't get very more important, I don't think, than this very department.
With that, I want to talk about some of the issues, just sort of a bit of a recap and, again, expressing some of our concerns about where we are. I know that Signature Resorts was a topic in here, Madam Chairman, a little bit. There are a lot of things with those resorts - those huge economic development opportunities - in the media back a while ago about the potential to sell these resorts, but yet we hear they're not for sale, maybe they are for sale. There have certainly been expressions of interest that have been posted for potential opportunities. It may not necessarily be a bad thing. The biggest thing here, though, I think with all of it, we have some maintenance, we have some crossover with the federal government, I think with the Keltic property. The other ones are more private, maybe, or government-wise owned - Digby Pines is a beautiful place, what a great spot to go; Keltic as well; and there's Liscombe Lodge. They're all very nice.
Some of the - I don't want to call them problems, but some of the issues I think for people is you look at Liscomb, just as an example, a beautiful spot out there, but people don't seem to want to drive maybe three hours to get there or they're not familiar. Roads are a big issue here, so they have to bump through some roads to get there, depending on the direction they're coming from. All of these things are issues, but the other is, of course, financial times are a little tougher and it costs money to go to those nice places.
I don't know - we're seeing some obvious decrease in the funding that is coming in the door. I can understand that and appreciate why, and I think that it's probably somewhat reasonable to look at the opportunities with these resorts. Should these remain in the responsibility of the taxpayers?
The big thing with them, though, I think mostly and, of course, the concern of members in this caucus, and I think probably all members in this House, is the fact that those jobs are there. Those are important jobs to people in rural communities like Liscomb and surrounding communities, like Digby, down at the Pines and surrounding communities, and where they come from - and certainly in Cape Breton with Keltic, another wonderful spot. All of those things do matter.
People might think well, you know it's a job here or a job there - they all matter, every last one of these jobs matter right now, so it's important to talk about that and to stress the opinion of this caucus that these are important issues for us and we hope there's a future for them in this province.
We have the loss of the ferry. We've heard an awful lot about the loss of the ferry, so much discussion about what that means to this province - and there are discussions that say yes, maybe that ferry wasn't the right boat. You probably won't get a lot of argument, maybe even from the people down that way - I think it's important that there's a whole mixed variety of opinions on the boat. The biggest issue was why take the boat out without having a replacement - and I think that people would have been more positive if they had known there was something else that was going to come by, without just killing it, because it killed the tourism industry.
You know, you talk about your tourism industry, now John Bregante - I'm sure you know councillor John Bregante in Windsor, minister, he runs the Meander Inn. He was a councillor in Dartmouth here, I believe, in HRM years ago and then moved out home and (Interruption) Yes, you've probably been there. It's a great little spot.
I talked to John back a while ago and said look, John, how's it going? The first thing he says is that darn ferry, believe it or not, has had an impact on my business because a lot of people travel that way. And that's not that far away, I mean we are three hours from Yarmouth. People make their way down along either the shore, around Highway No. 103 and the beautiful drive out along there, or they come down the other way and they'll get those three or four hours in and they'll come to Windsor and they'll learn about the birthplace of hockey, which we certainly know is important, they'll stop, they'll tour, they'll eat and then they'll decide it's late in the day - where can we get a spot to stay relatively cheap? Not that John is - you know, it's $65 or $75 bucks I think the sign on his lawn says down there, which is very reasonable to stay - it's a great place. You get a breakfast and a cup of coffee in the morning before you're on your way and you get offered the very best of company there.
So, you know, you can't say enough about industries like that. There are a lot of them. John is one example and he's three hours this side of where people are getting off that boat - or I should say where they were getting off that boat. The impact that that has had throughout this province and specifically the southwest Nova Scotia area, down through the shore and down our way, it has had a large impact. We've seen a decline in tourists and it has been tough. Every business is noticing - it doesn't matter. You can even go to Moe's Place Music, you can talk to Willard and Edgar there in town, and they'll tell you that it has been a tough year, sales are down. People are holding on to their dollars and you can understand that too. People are worrying about their jobs, they're worrying about where the economy is going to go, worrying about whether they're going to have a job, and maybe I won't buy that guitar or I won't buy this or I won't buy that and I'll hold off.
Christmastime was especially tough on those businesses around a small community like Windsor, and I only mention Windsor because I know you're probably familiar with all those people and most of them along those business corridors down there, as well as a lot of others around the province. I'm sure in the area that you represent, as well, the business community has been severely affected by that and something - I haven't talked to one business owner yet who agrees, as much as you and your government and your Finance Minister and others say that 2 per cent was a good thing, it had to be done. You had to have revenues. There's not one business person today that will tell me that it has been good for their business. It has been very difficult.
Again, small business, big business, people buying cars, it's a big chunk of money - 2 per cent is a lot of money on a car purchase. It's a lot of money on a nice guitar that might cost you $1,000, if you go look in a store today, that you would like to have; it's a lot of money on that. It's a lot of money on everything but it's the extras, not just the one item, it's a lot of items over the course of the year.
People are sitting down and they're saying, what does this mean for my year end, what does this mean for my budget? You know, they're not going out for dinner. Some people used to go over to Walkers Restaurant and maybe have breakfast each morning, maybe they're doing it two mornings a week, maybe they're not doing it at all anymore. There are families that would go out weekly for dinner who may be now going once a month, you know, everybody from pizza shops to these sit-down restaurants, to big businesses and smaller businesses, every one of them have been affected by an increase in tax because it comes out of the pockets of everyday Nova Scotians and it's hard on them. They have to rethink and that's okay, it's good that they're rethinking, it's good that they're taking the time to do that, but increasing taxes does nothing to grow the economy.
What we've seen proven is that it's slowing the economy in the Province of Nova Scotia. We have to have another look at where we're going with that and it's hard for us to support that. We won't support it and I think it's clear that we cannot support tax increases to people in Nova Scotia. They're working hard to make a dollar. Trying to put more money back in their pockets is what we should be doing as politicians, as leaders, as people making decisions. I know you sit around that table, I know it's a tough job, and I know the people appreciate that very much and so they should. They've never been there and I know when you get to that side, it's a tough job for people sometimes to make these decisions, but it's about making the right decisions.
Madam Chairman, it's hard sometimes to make the right decisions and you can't be all things to all people. That's something that's not realized a lot of times, too, you'll never please everybody when it comes to making decisions. But decisions about taxes are decisions that affect every single one of us, every single family, every single working man and woman, every child, everyone is affected by taxes. It's a never-ending saga, it will always be here I think it's fair to say. There's no doubt that the tax system will always be in place and there are benefits to the tax system. It allows you, as the Minister of Economic and Rural Development and Tourism, the Minister of Finance, and everyone in your government, to put programs in place that should be meaningful to Nova Scotians, whether they're incentives to our kids who are graduating high school or going on to NSCC, or to university for that matter, it affects every one of those people.
We should have programs, I know that you have to make decisions but as I was talking about these programs, these kids getting out of school are saying, where am I going? I've got a bachelor in this or I've got a trade in that. I think there's an opportunity that we've not yet had a real serious look at, which is how to get our kids to stay here. Economic development is a huge piece of our population growing. It's how we are going to keep and employ the young in rural Nova Scotia especially.
You know, in the HRM you've got the bulk of the population; the CBRM has got another big chunk of the population. I don't know what the numbers are right off but that probably tallies up somewhere maybe around 550,000 or 600,000 of the province. So we have just under 1,000,000 people here, 950,000 so we got roughly what? The quick math - at best probably 300,000 people living and working in, not necessarily working, but living in rural Nova Scotia, where we see rural communities in Nova Scotia literally dying. They're falling away. Small businesses are closing; some large businesses are closing.
I know in my area we've seen Stephens & Yeaton that was there for I don't know how many years, a large car dealership, seemed to be pretty solid through many ups and downs over the years - this isn't the first down we've had by way of the economy and recession, they've survived that, but this time they couldn't survive it. You have to ask yourself - how come? What's changed?
There's a lot that has changed, obviously. Times are changing, but it's like that rural piece of Nova Scotia - I don't want to say it has been forgotten because we've done a lot over the years to focus on rural Nova Scotia, but it still seems like we're not doing as good as the HRM. Everybody wants to move to the HRM, or close to it. Everybody wants to work in the HRM, they think that's where the money is, and probably it is, I don't know what the stats are. The higher paying jobs, everything is here.
Young people today want to live where there's something to do, and there's something to be said for that as well. They want to work in new hospitals and they want to work where all the new toys are. You can understand that and appreciate it, but there has to be something that says to a little community like Windsor, that has been very fortunate, I might add, it's 45, 50 minutes out of downtown, depending on traffic - no more than an hour. You see communities like Falmouth and Windsor Forks and Three Mile Plains with growth, which is a wonderful thing, it relates to our discussion we've had previously in education, the schools, it all matters. Even in the schools, there are jobs that are relative to the growth of your population. Every single one of them is so important. We can't stress enough - what are we going to do in rural Nova Scotia?
I'm very fortunate to have a guy out there by the name of Roger Gerrard. I'm sure you know Mr. Gerrard, who works in the Economic and Rural Development and Tourism office and he's my local officer. That guy, he calls me up and he says, what have you got going on? And I'll tell him, or I'll call him and I'll say I've had a meeting with a business operator, they want to discuss some future opportunities - he goes right out; he meets them; he calls them. Those are the kind of people we need out there.
Roger has only been with us maybe a couple of years now - a year and a half, two years, something like that - he has certainly made inroads out there. I think he has done a good job for us out there. Very involved, he wants to get the job done - and I think he told me he's retiring somewhere in the near future, or at least he is thinking about it. To me, personally, as the MLA, Roger Gerrard will be a loss, because he has just been so interactive with what we do in my office. When I call him, he just opens the door and says, what can I do for you? He's out there.
We have NSBI there, Sean Cochrane. Sean's done good stuff over the years. I've had opportunities to meet with him and he seems to be eager to get things done through NSBI. Economic Development has been active in our area. We need to be more active in all of our small towns and rural communities in this province to allow survival, to allow us to keep growing. We need to go out and seek business, and we need to bring bigger industry to Nova Scotia.
We can be competitive here. We have issues with the dollar, there's no question. Some people might think the dollar at $1.04 versus the U.S. dollar is a wonderful thing. Maybe in some circumstances it is, but I don't need to tell you, minister, or anyone in this House, when you're in a business that exports to the United States, it's hurting them, there's no question about that. That dollar value is a huge issue for us and our business community here.
With that, I know the minister wanted an opportunity, and I've rambled on here, but I think about some very important things. The minister did want a couple of minutes to give a closing statement and I'm going to let him do that, but I want to say, on behalf of our caucus, we were pleased to have an opportunity to have this minister, and all ministers, before us in this House during the estimates. I want to thank him for the answers to the many questions that I had through my time, and others as well - we appreciate that very much. And to your staff, the work that goes into it, we appreciate very much that as well.
With that, Madam Chairman, thank you very much.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Economic and Rural Development and Tourism, with just under two minutes for closing and moving of estimates.
HON. PERCY PARIS: Thank you, Madam Chairman. First, I want to say thank you to all the members of the House who participated. I will say that we accomplish so much more when we're collegial to one another, and it goes so much further. I want to say thank you to all the members who asked questions, and trust that when the members say that it was productive, I think we on this end have done our job.
I'd also like to take the opportunity because time is short, I'd like to mention those agencies and boards - NSBI, InNOVAcorp, Trade Centre Limited, Film Nova Scotia, Waterfront Development Corporation - and personally pass on my thanks to those boards and agencies, and to those volunteers who sit on those boards and committees, for their commitment to the Province of Nova Scotia.
I also want to take an opportunity at this time to say a very sincere and a very fond thank you to staff, not only staff who are here beside me and staff who are in the gallery, but also staff who are at the various offices, not only here in Halifax but right around the province, because we certainly recognize, as the member mentioned about the importance - and I certainly recognize the importance and the position of Economic and Rural Development and Tourism in the big picture in the Province of Nova Scotia as we move forward. So without those good people staffing their positions and working for the good of the whole, then they make my job so much easier and they are making Nova Scotia a better place to raise your families and a better place to live and work. Thank you.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E4 stand?
Resolution E4 stands.
That concludes our 40 hours of estimates.
The honourable member for Pictou East.
MR. CLARRIE MACKINNON: Madam Chairman, I'm very pleased to report that the Subcommittee on Supply has met for the 40 hours allotted to it and has considered the various estimates assigned to it.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Shall the remaining resolutions carry?
The resolutions are carried.
The honourable Government House Leader.
HON. FRANK CORBETT: Madam Chairman, I move that the committee do now rise and recommend the estimates to the favourable consideration of the House.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: The motion is carried.
The Committee of the Whole House on Supply will now rise and report these estimates to the House.
[The committee adjourned at 10:00 a.m.]
