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HALIFAX, TUESDAY, MAY 3, 2005

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY

2:39 P.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. James DeWolfe

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, would you please call the estimates of the Department of Education.

Resolution E3 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $1,074,377,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Education, pursuant to the Estimate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Education.

HON. JAMES MUIR: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to open the estimates debate for the Department of Education. Just before I do that, I'd like to introduce the staff who are with me today: Deputy Minister Dennis Cochrane, I think, is known to most members of the House; Darrell Youden, Senior Executive Director of Corporate Services, and that means that among other things, he's in charge of the financial aspect; in the balcony today will be Bill Turpin, one of our communications officers and if there are some questions I can't provide immediate feedback on, we'll work at it; also, up there we have Ben McIntyre, another member from Corporate Services.

The department staff work hard each year as we gear up for the estimates debate. We want to make sure that we are ready with the information that Opposition members are looking for. I want to thank the staff who are with me today and, as well, all those back in the Trade Mart who helped me get ready for this session and the estimates. It's a lot of work and a lot of preparation.

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We are indeed very proud and excited about this year's Education budget. The 2005-06 budget for the Department of Education represents an increase of $71.7 million over last year's budget and it represents close to a 6 per cent funding increase. It is one of the largest increases that a government has made in education in the last 10 years, or even in the history of government funding for education in our province. I believe the significant increase that we received this year makes it quite evident that this government is making education a Nova Scotia priority.

For many months now, both the Premier and myself have said that education is a priority for this government. In fact, it's the very message we delivered in February to more than 500 parents, teachers, principals, school board members, and others who gathered at CEC in Truro for our Education Partners' Forum.

We value our partners and the significant contribution they make to education in this province. In fact, many of the investments we're making this year are in response to what our partners have told us. I want to make it clear, providing a quality education for Nova Scotians, both young and old, is a shared responsibility. It's a job that the Department of Education can't do on its own. It's a job that we share with our many, many partners across the province, regardless of the level.

For example, earlier this afternoon I was at a meeting in downtown Halifax with a gathering of Nova Scotia industry representatives and manufacturing enterprise representatives, to talk about the needs of the manufacturing and industrial sectors here in Nova Scotia for their future training and human resource needs. It was a well-attended forum of representatives from across our province and indeed beyond, including the Chairman of the Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters.

My deputy will be going around the province within the next month or two and meeting with representatives of manufacturing and other industry in small group sessions, to get further feedback on what we can do, in the Trade Mart, that is going to improve their ability to have the trained workforce that they need to be competitive and to continue providing jobs for Nova Scotians in the future.

I say education is a job that we recognize we can't do on our own, it's a job that we share with many partners across the province. It's also a job that we share with the members opposite. That's why these estimates debates are so important, because the estimates debate provides a chance for all members of this Legislature to be accountable. The government has to be accountable for the money it spends on education and to be accountable for the quality of education services that are provided to Nova Scotians. The members opposite must also be accountable. They must be accountable for the quality of the questions they ask on the floor of this House.

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[2:45 p.m.]

Thus, Mr. Chairman, I'm looking forward to the next few hours, to have a productive discussion about education in Nova Scotia, a discussion that will move beyond the favourite topic of some of us, and that is the department's expenses for catering and hotels. I want to say off the bat that most of those costs are incurred for the professional development of our educators and our extensive consultations with our education partners. Our department often brings in educators to help develop curriculum, to attend in-service sessions to learn about new methods of instruction, and new intended learning outcomes. We bring in our education partners to learn these new methodologies and policies such as the code of conduct and our policies involving racial equity. This is part of the cost of doing business for an Education Department and it's worth every penny.

I welcome the opportunity to spotlight all the good work we're doing, along with our education partners. I also welcome the chance to inform the members opposite of the exciting plans that we have for the new year.

Mr. Chairman, with your permission, there is one of our education partners in the gallery whom I'd like to introduce at this time. In the east gallery is Mr. Wade Marshall, Chairman of the Halifax Regional School Board, and I would ask members to give him a warm welcome. (Applause)

I also welcome the chance to address the work we have yet to do. We recognize that more work is needed to help more of our students succeed, to increase support for students with special needs, and to, in fact, help more of our students reach their full potential.

I believe that we have a very good education system, but we also have educators who want to make the system better. Our students work very hard and so do our teachers and the school boards. It's important to note that our schools are here to help our children advance to post-secondary education training, and also to go directly into the workplace, but there is more, it's about the development of the whole person. Schools also exist to prepare students for a rich and fulfilling life in the workforce and in the community. The goals and priorities of our department this year are intended to help students do just that.

The mission statement for the Department of Education is "to provide excellence in education and training for personal fulfilment for a productive, prosperous society." Staff at the department work hard each and every day to advance the goals and priorities outlined in the department's business plan.

Overall, we are working to improve the conditions for learning in the public school system: to strengthen educational programming and services in priority areas; to enable the provision of relevant and high-quality post-secondary education and training; to foster access equity and diversity through and within education and training; to promote healthy, active

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learning communities and families; to develop a skilled and adaptable workforce; and to strengthen accountability and governance, resource investment and utilization, and reporting of results.

Staff at the department have many responsibilities above and beyond what's reflected in our business plan. I want to take this opportunity, not only to set the stage for the new year, but to thank staff for all of their hard work and for the solid contribution they are making to help more Nova Scotians reach their full potential.

I'm confident that this will be an exciting year in education in Nova Scotia at every level. It's one that will see us work more with parents, teachers, students, school boards, business, universities, community college people, and the many other partners to better ensure that students graduate with the highest quality of knowledge and skills.

Education is this government's priority. Our budget increase of close to 6 per cent means new programs for students and help for the school boards to manage their cost pressures. Improving children's math and literacy skills remains a priority. We're putting more money in public education at a time when enrolment is declining. For example, the enrolment decline in the Strait Regional School Board is close to 15 per cent between 1998 and 2003. Enrolment in the Halifax Regional School Board has declined by 3.7 per cent during that same time period.

We're making a significant investment this year to build on the success of Learning for Life, with a new multi-year plan for the next wave of improvements. Additional funding also means our Skills and Learning Branch will be busy preparing new youth apprenticeship programs and career resources as part of the new education plan. This will continue its fundamental role as the voice within the education system of students, employers and those engaged in the workplace.

Initiatives to provide leading-edge programs for adult learners in the province through the Nova Scotia School for Adult Learning will continue. In addition, adult learning needs will continue to be evaluated on a community basis to determine funding priorities.

Youth are one of Nova Scotia's most important resources. In response we are introducing new programs to help prepare them to finish their education to enter the workforce here in the province. Through Learning for Life the department has supported many initiatives, including reduced class sizes in the early years, and put more than $1 million worth of books into the schools. We provided more support for students with special needs and we've targeted funds to priority areas like literacy, math, and whole school improvement.

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In the upcoming year, $5 million will be invested to meet Learning for Life commitments. That means more resource teachers, speech language pathologists, school psychologists and other professionals, which will increase support for students with special needs. Reading Recovery for Grade 1 students will continue and Grade 2 students will benefit from smaller class sizes. Now it's time to build on Learning for Life.

Learning for Life II: Brighter Futures Together will continue to provide support for students, teachers, and parents. There will be more details when we officially release our new plan in the next few weeks, but I can tell you today it will target resources to areas where students and teachers need them the most, including math and literacy. In addition, our successful school improvement planning initiative will extend to more schools. We will couple with supports to help principals and teachers to focus even more clearly on student achievement. We will introduce programs to help students who are not succeeding in school and to support healthy lifestyles. The current student assessment program will expand over time. The department will invest $21 million in new funding in 2005-06 as part of this plan.

Learning for Life II: Brighter Futures Together has six main themes.

1. Raising the Bar. This sets higher standards for learning and teaching and recognizes achievements both in and out of school that contribute to a student's education. Initiatives will focus on more advanced course options for students and more literacy and math mentors. The funding is $4.3 million.

2. Closing the Gap. This recognizes that some students need additional or different supports to succeed in public school. We will focus on helping students stay in school and will make more use of resources like co-operative work placements. Closing the Gap initiatives will include more resource teachers and specialists for students with special needs. There will also be more textbooks, more support workers for African-Nova Scotian students and new resources for Mi'kmaq students. Enhancing school libraries is also part of the plan, and I know there is at least one member on the opposite side of the House that is smiling when he hears that. The funding is $9 million.

3. Developing Healthy, Active Learners. This recognizes that schools have a role to play in promoting healthy, active living for students. We are partnering with the Office of Health Promotion and others to put into place initiatives which include support for breakfast programs, new physical education programs with more teachers, and healthier eating options. I would like to recognize my colleague, the honourable Minister of Health Promotion and his staff, for working so carefully and being so supportive with the Department of Education's staff in this area where we have a common interest. The funding is $1.8 million.

4. Time to Teach and Time to Learn. This recognizes that students need to get a good start in early years and instructional time has to be structured to ensure that students have more time to learn and teachers have more time to teach. Initiatives will include expanding

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the smaller class size initiative and piloting the pre-Primary program. The funding is $4.6 million.

5. Measuring and Reporting on Success. This supports the importance of making sound educational decisions based on solid information and focusing on continuous improvements for students, classes, schools, school boards, and as a province. Among the initiatives will be expanding student literacy and math assessments to Grade 3, and continuing to report to parents in more detail. The funding is $1.4 million

6. Strengthening Partnerships. This is the last of our principles and it recognizes, as I said earlier, that schools can't do it all, and it recognizes the role others have and the valuable contributions they can make in helping students succeed. Our partners include parents, school advisory councils, other community organizations, businesses, other departments and agencies of government, to name a few. Our goal is to have everyone working together with student success as the number one priority. The funding to enhance this partnership is $200,000.

[3:00 p.m.]

What this collectively represents is more than $21 million in new money for Primary to Grade 12 students and it's all provincial money, it doesn't include one dollar from the funds that will flow to school boards from property assessments. This funding is above and beyond an investment of $28.9 million we are making to maintain the current P to 12 system. This, of course, includes funding for wage increases, benefits, pensions, transportation and P3 lease operating agreements. It also includes funding to help our eight regional school boards to manage the cost pressures, including rising energy costs.

The increase also covers the $1.9 million in additional funding that goes to the Halifax, Cape Breton-Victoria, South Shore, and Tri-County Regional School Boards, and CSAP, in response to the proposed new funding allocation formula prepared by Mr. Bill Hogg. On that point, I want to remind the members opposite that we remain committed to developing and implementing a new funding allocation formula for school boards to ensure fair, transparent and equitable funding. Staff will begin to meet with school boards this month to get additional feedback and input.

The province also remains committed to ensure that students learn and our teachers teach in safe environments. More than $55 million will be invested this year on construction of 13 new schools. Four of these schools - Amherst Elementary, Cumberland Elementary, Barrington High and Hammonds Plains Elementary - will open in 2005-06. The remaining nine schools - St. Pat's/Queen Elizabeth High, Western Halifax Regional Municipality High, Harbourside/Robert Jamieson High, Truro West Elementary, Truro South Elementary, Northside Elementary, Musquodoboit High, Rankin High, and Glace Bay Junior High - will open over the subsequent two fiscal years.

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Remaining true to our commitment to the Nova Scotia Community College growth plan, we will invest $30 million in capital funding for the college. In accordance with the memorandum of understanding reached last Fall, our universities did receive an increase of $12.3 million in late March, 2004-05, that could be spent in this fiscal year. This is a memorandum of understanding, we are proud of it, and indeed it's a first for our province.

Staff within the Higher Education Branch worked very hard with university presidents to reach an agreement that will, by the last year of the three-year agreement, see universities receive $34.6 million per year more from the government, compared to 2004-05. On average, this new funding will avert about $1,300 in tuition fee increases in the final year of the agreement, and that is on a per-student basis. This is a substantial investment by the people of Nova Scotia in their students and in their universities. Higher education will continue to be an excellent value for students and our universities will continue to offer an education that is recognized across the country for its high quality. At lunchtime I was, once again, able to remind other Nova Scotians that the quality of our undergraduate university in this province is second to none in our country.

Under the memorandum of understanding, universities will have available funding of $224 million in 2005-06, which is an increase of about $12.3 million or 5.6 per cent over the previous year; $235.7 million in 2006-07, an increase of $11.7 million or 5.2 per cent over the previous year; and $246.3 million in 2007-08, an increase of $10.6 million or 4.5 per cent over the previous year. This is an increase of $71 million from a low of $175 million that we started with when we began, after the 1997-98 fiscal year.

The increased funding on the memorandum of understanding is the largest increase in provincial operating grants to universities in history. Of course, as everyone in the House now knows, the tuition fee increases will be limited to no more than 3.9 per cent annually for most programs during the agreement. The agreement also includes increases to other fees such as those for labs and residences. This, along with improvements to the student assistance program, such as increased assistance levels and changes to parental contributions, will significantly improve access to our universities.

Mr. Chairman, I'm also pleased to say that the Province of Nova Scotia, in partnership with the federal government, is amending the parental contribution formula for student loans. This change will increase the income threshold at which parents are expected to contribute to their children's post-secondary education and it will also reduce the rate at which they are expected to contribute. This initiative will result in government issuing a greater level of student assistance to a greater number of students. We anticipate that this will mean an additional $3 million annually in provincial student loans as a result of this change.

The 2005-06 budget is good news for education. It's good news for students, parents, teachers, school boards and for our many other education partners. This is a budget that will see per-pupil funding increased to $7,590 per student. It will see funding for public education

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increased by $53.6 million, a 6.1 per cent increase from last year. It's a budget that will see the province's eight regional school boards benefit from an increase of close to $40 million. This is, indeed, an Education budget that respects the priorities and commitments of this government and indeed, of all Nova Scotians. It's an Education budget that incorporates the government's commitment to bring the same discipline and determination for the academic success of students, as it has in improving the fiscal and economic health of this province. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.

MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, I look forward to the next number of hours on this important topic, but on the topic of coffee, I want the minister to know that there are many mornings in my home where, over coffee, we discuss numerous important educational issues that are brought to our attention by respected journalists in this province and then later on, over further coffee at one of the three Tim Hortons that I happen to have in my community - and I don't go to all three every morning because by noon I'd be so hyper you would have to weigh me down with an anchor - I take the cycle and drop in each morning and have a chat and over a coffee, the topic is usually education.

The topic can revolve around the comments of Marilla Stephenson, or Rick Conrad, Cathy Nicoll. The comments come back some days that, in fact, we don't even have a conversation, we just point to the picture and say, let's talk about this particular issue when it comes to education today.

I want to point out first of all to the minister that there are some steps in the public school system that this department and this government deserve some credit for. The CEC experience, in probably the best high school in Nova Scotia - although I'm sure that AIMS and Charles Cirtwell still probably have them ranked at about 40^th, but then again, AIMS has never been in the school gym, they've never heard or seen the musicals, they don't understand that about the school system. I'm proud to say I was the one, along with some other members of my caucus, who made that congratulatory note to AIMS because of their very positive work that was made here a number of days ago.

I want you to know that that experience at the Cobequid Educational Centre was an excellent step, and the consultation that's following up, and the involvement of the partners in education, is something that has been long in the making. The additional dollars are of some consequence, for sure, and it can't all be done at once. I've been in this House, and I know the minister has sat on this side for a session or two and we've dealt with previous governments. I know the members of the Third Party will be concerned about this, but I'd like to clarify something with the minister and the deputy because it was actually your deputy, Mr. Minister, who clarified something for us.

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We were attending - and the deputy minister kept saying, Bill, this is not a press conference - an announcement that there was finally an agreement with the P3 developer and there was some very positive news that day that arrived. In advance, we had the opportunity to sit down with the minister and his staff and look at some of the details. When we broke, your deputy said - and I wouldn't quote him directly but the message was a familiar one, and it was directed, I would assume, primarily to me, because the new Education Critic for the Liberals at that stage was there without staff, completely on her own on one of the most contentious topics that this previous administration ever had to put up with and I want to tell you, she earned her stripes that day, to her credit. But let me tell you, there was a moment when I said to a couple of people who were there from our caucus, what was this all about? The message was, Bill, be careful what you say because there have been times in the past when there has been the possibility of defamatory comments being made and possibly being sued.

Now, I'm not in the comfortable confines of the Legislature where we have some immunity, but let me tell you, I talked to the lady in charge of communications for us, Barbara Emodi and I said, what's that all about? I have to be careful now not to make sure that I point out that George Armoyan has benefited immensely with his developments and went into a community and destroyed it, walked away and in return gave us turkeys? I can't say those things outside this House. I can't say them in the Trade Mart Building of the Department of Education. That was basically the warning that I was given, but then, Mr. Minister, in came the media.

The media was there, there were cameras and microphones, and as you well know, the minister said it probably a number of times to me privately and once or twice publicly, there's not a microphone or camera that I don't like. Let me tell you, there was one camera there that I found offensive. When I began to realize that there was a person in that room with a hand-held camcorder, I began to say, which particular media outlet is this guy with? Then I began to realize that that person was there because he had been sent by the private developer to capture the comments, to capture the exchanges that took place. It would seem to me appropriate, Mr. Minister, that that particular gentleman either should have been identified to us, publicly, who he was, or he should have been asked to leave. I would like to have your comment on that suggestion.

MR. MUIR: I appreciate the kind comments that the member opposite made about the Education Partners' Forum and, by the way, I would not at all argue with your comments about CEC. There may be others, like my colleague from the Valley, the Kings area, who has some fine schools down there, but I must say I do think CEC is not a bad institution. I think AIMS greatly erred in their assessment of that institution, if the truth be known.

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[3:15 p.m.]

Anyway, you asked a little bit about the conference and we were talking about the agreement that had been reached with Scotia Learning, about the resolution which prevented the arbitration of P3 schools, and suggested there was a person there with a camera who was not a regular member of the media. I agree with the honourable member that probably it would have been better had that person identified themselves and the purpose for which they were there. However, it was an open press conference and I guess if somebody came in with a camera - and quite frankly, I wasn't particularly impressed with that, if the truth be known.

MR. ESTABROOKS: It was threatening to a degree, not that I haven't stood up to a bully or two before. When you come into your particular department - and I understand there are renovations going on there and that will be a question later on that I'll be interested in - when you come into the Trade Mart and you have the opportunity to go to the Department of Education, that wonderful receptionist who's there, if she could have maps available to show the way through that rabbit warren. Although I usually get escorted in, and on the way out there are many times when they just say, there's the door and they don't say it in a positive way.

Let's clarify the fact that should there not have been some sort of check-in system, so at least I could have asked, or a member of the NDP caucus staff could have asked, who was that person? In terms of a name tag, a security badge or whatever, I believe that considering where we are in education in this province and some of the issues we have to address, that it would be appropriate that that particular person should have been identified to all of us present, so that we would have been made aware of the fact that he perhaps could have had a microphone stuck in his face by a member of the media saying, so you're here representing the P3 people, what do you think of this sort of thing? The answer, of course, would have been no comment, that particular young man would have been there just doing a job.

Mr. Chairman, I'd like to move on from that topic, unless the minister wants to make a further comment. I saw that he began to stand in his place, I didn't mean to think that I was going to - it was uncomfortable, it was something I didn't feel very good about. The next day there was a conversation we had in a number of places in my community, when it comes to the fact that I want the P3 developers to know that I own nothing, my wife owns everything, which might be good, or it might be bad, but let's be clear on the fact - sue away, because as far as I'm concerned, it was a rotten deal, it was a deal that had to be improved, it was a deal that we were stuck with because politics was all over it, and because of that, we at least have some things settled and it's important that we just move on. I know that members from the Third Party would love it to move on but they're not going to soon forget what they stuck us with for years.

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I know I've heard the numbers - and I want to turn to this and I want this to be perhaps a jump-off spot - Marilla Stephenson had an article on April 28^th of this year, that money for education should be kept in perspective. I'm fully aware of the fact of how badly we were treated for years under the Liberal Administration and at that time, Mr. Minister, as you are well aware, I had the privilege of being in a school and they were tough times. John MacEachern was floating around the province with all the answers and then he never even had the courage to run in the election where we would have kicked his butt - I don't know if that's appropriate, Mr. Chairman - his behind. Then we went into a minority situation and again, they put it to us in education but this time we were here in the House, and I know you joined me as a newcomer at that time in the House.

There have been numerous dollars that have been brought forward. Now we can debate the amounts of dollars and where they are, and we'll take anything. I hear school board people say, this is wonderful, these are crumbs from the table, we still have a long way to go. I'm not saying these millions are crumbs, we'll take them. But Ms. Stephenson quite correctly puts it in place when she says - and you'll excuse me if I get in some good light here - that a little more than 10 per cent of all that new money into the public school system in this province goes to education.

So I can ask the minister, how can you still call it, or believe, that this is an Education budget when Ms. Stephenson says that only 10 per cent of the new money goes to public schools?

MR. MUIR: I guess I could perhaps make a bit of a comment that sometimes I wish I was a columnist, then I could be correct in everything that I said and wrote. I think in that particular column, if I'm not mistaken - no reflection on the author of it - there were a couple of things in there that we had to clarify, and we did actually clarify, and I believe she may have recognized that in a subsequent opinion piece.

If you take a look at the amount of additional dollars, and going back to the comments that I made in my opening, if you don't want to accept, perhaps, the word of the department - and I understand, having been on both side of the House what you might prefer - I would refer you to some of the comments from our partners, including the School Boards Association. I believe their comment was that it was tremendous news. The representatives from the community college and the university sectors, which are our other two partners, recognized the value and the need for the additional dollars and how they would address their needs.

Let's forget about what the Department of Education and the Minister of Finance said in his speech and what I said, and let's go to these outside agencies that are the recipients, and use the money which the public provides for them for our young people, and let's take them and say, okay, politicians spin things, but let's take the outside objective view which would say yes, this was indeed a very good Education budget.

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MR. ESTABROOKS: Although I must point out that there was an excellent - on the topic of journalism, and as a father of a young journalist, I want you to know - series of education articles in The Herald over the last week; in fact, even the last columns that were put forward where the minister was interviewed. A question-and-answer was interesting that morning, as my wife and I shared a coffee, and looked at the fact - now here's an in-depth chance to really understand what the minister was all about. Some of those topics I'm going to come to later.

I would credit the journalists involved for at least recognizing the importance of the public school issue and making sure that it's on our breakfast table every morning when we can have the chance to look at education as a think piece, whether we agree or disagree with them. But let me tell you, there was one particular day where I found The Daily News hard to digest. It had nothing to do with who was writing, it had nothing to do with what the topic was, it was that offensive picture of Ronald McDonald in a school as a phys. ed. teacher. (Interruptions) Excuse me, but make me gag. Here it was, the corporate icon that Big Mac land is all about, and there was Ronald McDonald doing his thing.

I have to ask, and I'm going to ask it tongue-in-cheek, because it does strike me a bit that when I see in the highlights from the budget that you and this department will hire physical activity animators - now I've heard of facilitators and I've heard all of the terminology, and for the members of the House who are not educators, you will never join a profession that can invent more names and call them whatever. We've been through more descriptions of what these people do, but we now have physical activity animators who are going to be hired in each board. I understand what they're supposed to do, but an animator? Are we looking at Bart Simpson here? Are we looking at (Interruptions) No, I'm not using your examples, I'm sorry. The member for Cape Breton Nova is encouraging me on rabbit tracks, Bugs Bunny aside.

We're looking at the fact that physical education is an important course. I understand - and I can compliment, publicly and privately, the Minister of Health Promotion - this is an important initiative. But explain to me and to a young phys. ed. teacher I had the opportunity to see the other morning, when I was in his school, he is dying to know, what is a physical activity animator?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, these animators, one for each board, are being placed as a result of a federal-provincial agreement. Their role will be to work with people in the board, primarily for after-school community use of school properties to encourage young people to partake in activities which will keep them physically active. The term animator, facilitator, organizer, it would be, in some places, in some communities, where you have a recreation director whose job is to organize activities for the community. This one would be a little bit more refined, putting an extra body in the school boards to help, perhaps, school people, other community people organize activities which are intended to keep young people healthy, and would also carry on to some of the older population.

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MR. ESTABROOKS: The member for Glace Bay has just informed me that Mr. MacEachern could run again, and if he'd like to he could come to Timberlea-Prospect and run against me any time. It would happen as I said before. (Interruptions)

Not that I need any sidetracks from any member from Cape Breton, I want to talk about the fact that we are seconding (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, members of the Chamber. The member for Timberlea-Prospect has the floor. Member, continue.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Those teachers who are soon to be - and I imagine, probably, knowing the time and having made a call to one of my schools, they could be watching some of this, I think it's of some importance that I continue to bring issues forward. Many of the teachers in my community have asked me to bring comments forward, comments that I occasionally use. I know that sometimes people say, where does he get off saying that? I want you to know those are comments that teachers pass on to me. Teachers have said to me before, when you have the opportunity, find out who gets seconded - wonderful word - to the department.

Now phys. ed. teachers are going to be seconded, six of them, apparently. We're going to take six qualified experts in physical education, and we're going to take them out of our schools and we're going to take them out of our gymnasiums, and we are going to put them in the Department of Education. I'm under the impression that these six teachers are going to be working with research, they're going to be working with the "animators". But I look at this, I look at the young member for Inverness, when he left his teaching job, I'm sure the principal said at the time, are you sure you're making the right decision here? You're going into politics? You're leaving an important, responsible job, an example, all the things and the activities that you could bring to our school in our community.

[3:30 p.m.]

I'm always concerned about the number of teachers who are seconded to the board, or seconded to the department, who they are and, more importantly, what exactly they are going to be doing. I would like you to clarify for me, Mr. Minister, if you could, the role of these - I believe I have this correct - six phys. ed. teachers who are going to be seconded to work with the physical activity animators? They are going to work with the initiative of a more physically active lifestyle.

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, in response to that, I'm going to have to get a little bit more detail on it, seek information. When we get into the estimates on Health Promotion, the minister responsible there may be able to answer right off the top of his head and give you a more precise answer. Suffice it to say that I know the animators who are going to be hired under that federal-provincial program will act to facilitate and to make sure, to encourage

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young people and others to pursue healthy activities. To be quite frank, I was not aware that there were going to be six phys. ed. teachers seconded - I guess it would be eight, because there would be one in each board.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I know, although they seldom admit it now, some of the people who work in the Department of Education. In fact I talk with some of them. What concerns me is that at times we take really good people who have wonderful skills out of the classrooms and out of our schools, and they end up as bureaucrats in the Department of Education, and we never hear from them again. We never see them again. They buy in on the system. They go as risk-takers with all kinds of ideas, yet once they're there they seem to lose that little edge that made them so successful as classroom teachers and as school administrators.

That's an opinion, and I know some of them will speak again when I get a nasty e-mail, or perhaps it will be on Halifax Live tonight, that that's a comment that's unfair, but I want to point out to the minister - maybe he will not share this, but it's something that I would like to ask the minister at this time - do you believe, Mr. Minister, that there is a disconnect between the Trade Mart Education Department officials and classroom teachers in this province?

MR. MUIR: I think I can honestly report, and having been at a variety of levels, the connection between the field and the department has never been closer than it is today. We obviously, when we wish to bring somebody in for a specific task, for a term period, want the very best people who would be willing to join us. We second quite a number of people, and these secondments are generally of a short-term nature. We do have a certain number of staff who are there sort of as core staff, but whenever we have a priority in a subject area for the public schools, normally we will bring in a person who is a recognized leader, because so much of what they will be asked to do will be working with their former public school colleagues, either in the development phase or the implementation phase.

I really mean it, Mr. Chairman, when I say that there's no question, in any organization there will be times when people in the field will say, well, you're really not in tune with what we're doing. I can think back over my considerable experience in education, I don't think there has ever been a closer relationship between department officials and those who work directly with the students in the public schools. Whenever I attend meetings with our partners, this is certainly the message that I'm receiving as minister.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to bring some examples forward, if I may. I have permission to use at least one teacher's name - a retired teacher - who believes there is a disconnect, that there is a real concern about what's happening, if I can use the expression, in the trenches, in the classrooms, as opposed to somebody - their words - in the ivory tower at the Trade Mart Building.

[Page 131]

I heard from people throughout the province, I heard from people in Amherst, a school teacher called me from Amherst one Sunday evening in fact. We had a long conversation. He's from Amherst and I'm originally from - I was going to say that neck of the woods, but that's not the appropriate expression - that region of Nova Scotia. He had no problem finding my home telephone number, as most Nova Scotians don't. He called me and he congratulated me, saying you're quite correct, junior high is a curriculum wasteland.

I said to that teacher from Amherst, that's not my terminology. I actually wanted him to know that there is a teacher I'm proud to say I taught with, that is her terminology. Junior high is a curriculum wasteland. There are all kinds of dollars invested, there are all kinds of wonderful projects, Primary to Grade 6, there are all kinds of dollars there. Then when you get to high school, those particular young men and women, they see the light at the end of the tunnel. I've always said, you get them as far as Grade 10 and get them over that Christmas burst when they are 15, 16 years of age, the rest is downhill. I'm saying that as a vice-principal, as a principal and as a schoolteacher.

But the last number of years that I was in the teaching profession, I went to junior high. Let me tell you, I had members of the Sackville High School staff I was working with who said to me, Bill, are you out of your mind? What are you doing going to junior high? I have talked to those teachers subsequent to that, and let me tell you, junior high is a wonderful age to deal with young people. They're candid, they're blunt, they have all kinds of issues, but I know that you have a major impact with them when you're a caring, considerate, involved staff member. I've worked with teachers at Brookside Junior High School in particular, I've worked with teachers who say that is the most challenging position in the school curriculum, but they will agree with me when I say that junior high is a curriculum wasteland.

It's sort of a leftover. It's not a priority, and has not been a priority for curriculum developers for years and years. I'm not just talking about math. For example, home economics, industrial arts - oh my God, we can't call them that, we have to call them tech ed, we have to fancy it up. We have to make sure they are going to have all kinds of other skills. When there are young people at risk, Mr. Minister - and you know this from your own experience - it's important to have the testing that the department is continuing to do. But I want you to know that most Grade 8 math teachers don't need one of these tests to say, this student here is in trouble, he is not going to do well on his math results.

Yet, it's at junior high where - and I'm speaking from personal experience here - the photocopying budget is through the roof, because you don't have the materials. You don't have all the packages of things which you're supposed to have for all the levels that you have in your classroom. You don't have, in some cases, enough textbooks, or if you have textbooks, they are so old and beaten up and chewed on that, basically, you can't even have them take them home in the evenings.

[Page 132]

So I am saying to you that when I made the comment, I know that there were members of the Department of Education who were not pleased with my analogy, but I would say to you that a great many junior high teachers would say, he's right, junior high is a curriculum wasteland. I'm wondering if you would agree with me on that?

MR. MUIR: You picked an interesting age group of young people. I can see your colleague, the member for Hants East, is familiar with that age group, from his background, and I guess we all are. There is no question that we talk about high schools, we talk about elementary schools, but people don't talk about junior high schools as much as they talk about others. However, that does not mean that it has not been a priority of the Department of Education.

For example, you mentioned the home economics and the industrial arts, the tech ed, the development of that program. I know when they developed the tech ed program, in some of the larger schools they have things such as printing, in addition to the hands-on activities. The honourable member knows as well as I do, in education history, the idea of the industrial arts and the home economics programs was twofold. One was for leisure time, a person could have a hobby, as well when it was developing back at the turn of the 20^th Century, we were not quite as technologically advanced. Comparatively maybe we were, it depends where we are at a spot in time when you're talking about technological advancement. We have more technology now, but a person was also required to do more things with their hands.

Similarly, with the home economics program, where there were a lot more clothes made at home, a lot more meals prepared at home, the roles of people in society were somewhat different than they are today. So these programs were very good programs. People would argue that the changes in those two programs basically reflect changes in society. In other words, they have changed to respond to the different situations we find today than we found 100 years ago, when those things were developed. Now whether that is good or bad is something that I guess you and I could sit down and debate or have a conversation with a good many other people about, whether we should be returning to those days when we did certain things, very defined tasks, hands-on tasks that we did in those programs.

Also, the honourable member, he knows as well as I do that in those days, when those programs were in their heyday, the idea of going on to higher education, there seemed to be more training in the workplace. It started off, once if you had Grade 8 you were educated as well as the average person in society; then it became Grade 10; then it became Grade 11; then it became Grade 12. Now we're in a society where we say, well, the public school is really not sufficient. We either have to go and do some trades or technical training or go on and do some more academic training at one type of an institution or another. In other words, whereas public school was at one time - I guess, indeed, sort of when I was in public school - the standard, and then some people went on from there, depending on what they wished. Everything changes.

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Getting back to the junior high schools, I just want to give you some examples, Mr. Chairman. I'm going to perhaps tie a couple of things together for the honourable member. With junior high, whether we're talking middle school or junior high - anyway, let's say somewhere in there - we have an Active Reader 9 meeting that was taking place, and that's one of those meeting expenses he was talking about; Science 9 and 10 implementation workshop, those are junior high. We have Active Young Readers, 4 to 6 assessment, if you're looking at Grade 6 being middle school, perhaps junior high - it is in my community now. We have the Science 7 and 8 leadership meetings, readers leadership meetings, workshops for the social studies program, teachers for the junior high. Junior high doesn't get the publicity that the elementary grades and the senior high grades do, but they do get their fair share.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, it is interesting to hear and to see that those are the sorts of initiatives that are taking place at the junior high level, but I never heard the term alternative education in there. Special ed, oh, we can't use that anymore, that's on the outs, that's one of the terminologies that somebody somewhere decided is no longer appropriate. I saw many young men and women at risk when they were in junior high. They were at risk, they needed some job training. It wasn't a matter of getting them into Grade 10, it was a matter of making sure that they weren't going to end up in jail. They were truly at risk.

[3:45 p.m.]

Alternative education - and this is a program I will come back to later at a different time - I want you to know that the session we had in Truro, that Mr. Jerry Springer did such a great job at. I don't know if you saw him in action that day, but he's worth the price of admission. I want you to know that the workshops were overflowing. If members present don't know of what I speak, stay tuned and I'll bring it up later during one of my hours with the minister. That's an initiative that we can get hold of, that's an initiative that is going to be successful, because everyone involved is looking at the fact of occupational opportunities for younger men and women in the school system.

The opportunity is still there for young men and young women who like to get their hands dirty and do some real work. I want you to know, go find a good mechanic, go find a bricklayer you can put a lot of faith in, go find a contractor who's going to be a fine cabinetmaker, and if he's under 30 years of age, I want you to know that would be an exception in the workplace.

I want to turn to another topic where there's a disconnect in my opinion. I'm pleased to say that at least, aside from the fact of using the terminology, I had the opportunity the other morning to go on the Rick Howe show, and I know that members opposite, whether they'll admit it or not, listen to Mr. Howe. That morning Mr. Howe had a guest on with me, and the guest was a retired math teacher who spent 33 years teaching junior high. My

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opening comment to Gary Carson was, you deserve a medal. He wasn't just a junior high teacher for 33 years, he was a junior high math teacher for 33 years.

Mr. Carson has said, and he is very concerned about it, he is so busy tutoring high school kids that he actually can't fit all the requests in. Gary Carson has a simple theory on this - and I am interested - and we could really take up too much time on this one topic, but it is the topic of semestering, semestered math students and how they do as opposed to those math students who take math all year long.

Now I can remember the bill of goods that we were sold as school administrators, all about the positives of semestering, timetabling, more intense learning, all kinds of better uses of your staff. Those arguments have put, really, the math results in this province in jeopardy in my opinion.

So I'd like to ask two questions. The first is, has the department looked at the difference between semestered math results - and I'm talking those notorious, unfortunately, Grade 12 results - and math students who take math year-round? That's the first part of the question when it comes to semestering. And secondly, is it not really a positive initiative, if we're going to listen to teachers who have huge concerns about semestering, that the department look into this whole issue and get back to the various boards around the province on the fact that maybe we better rethink what semestering is all about?

MR. MUIR: Semestering is an interesting topic. I'm going to perhaps give shorter answers to his questions. Let me say, the way semestering is set up in the province, and the way the high school program is set up in the great majority of schools now - I'm trying to think of the best order to make comments. Let's start off with the comparison results, and you mentioned mathematics, semestered and non-semestered schools. To be quite frank, there has been no official look at that. I've looked at it, personally, because I was interested in it. The best results that I saw, and somebody is probably going to stand and correct me on this, were from semestered schools, but there are more semestered schools than non-semestered schools.

Secondly, there is the provision, particularly in the Grade 10 math, where schools are encouraged, if they so wish, to make Grade 10 mathematics and Grade 10 English year-long courses. That would be easy enough, or it would be possible if it was even in a semestered school, because you could effectively do half in one semester, I guess, and do half in the next semester. It would be possible.

Thirdly, my comment on that was, I can tell the honourable member, this was a real question for me when I assumed the ministry in the Department of Education. I met with the high school representatives, a group of high school students, and we asked them. They were at the stage where they had gone through both semestered and non-semestered courses,

[Page 135]

simply because of the phasing in of semestering. Basically, to a person, they preferred the semestering.

I know I've heard some of the comments you've heard from some of the other teachers. In looking at the hard data and what students tell me, I don't think it's really cut and dried.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased, and I'm aware of the fact that it's important to consult young people when it comes to their education, and it's important to listen to their opinions on it. I didn't always listen when my kids were teenagers. In fact, sometimes I insisted they listen to me. I don't know whether they tuned out after a while, but let me tell you that when it comes to the topic of semestering, I think that it's time to truly revisit the issue. In fact, I think it's appropriate to look at the results of semestered high schools in math. I ask this out of interest. I don't know the answer, you're supposed to never ask questions unless you know the answer, but is CEC semestered?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, could he ask that question again, I didn't pick it up.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, well, it's a personal question, because I'm aware of the fact of where your children went to school. Is Cobequid Educational Centre in Truro, the home of the Cougars, ranked 43^rd in the province by AIMS, a semestered high school?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, no.

MR. ESTABROOKS: A wonderful answer, a wonderful bang-on answer. I had been under the impression that there had been some decisions, perhaps, of what schools were going to be semestered. Do you know what happens in those situations, Mr. Chairman? Let me tell you, the small "p" politics - and Mr. Marshall is perhaps still there - in school boards is the pressure is on the principal. Everybody has been semestered, why don't you guys get semestered, too? That's the way we're all going, that's the thing to do.

If you're the school principal involved, and you have the support of your school advisory council and the support of your staff, and you put up the stop sign and say no, we don't want it, it takes some nerve to do that, to cross your board and say, we don't want it. The literature and the materials and all the arguments for, but here is one of the biggest, most established high schools in this province. In my opinion - and the minister knows this is not a patronizing comment - this is one of the best high schools in this province, and it's not semestered.

[Page 136]

I think that would be a lesson for some of those other principals, who've been sold a bill of goods and now are stuck with semestering. It would be important for them to speak out and have their say on the fact that there are numerous arguments that are really beginning to hold a lot of water that semestering ain't all it's cracked up to be - excuse my grammar, Mr. Chairman - particularly in math, when math should be taught year-round. You get a kid, and here's the argument, and I know members opposite, whether their children or grandchildren are in a situation like this, he or she graduates from Grade 9 and moves on, if it's a middle school, it's a different grade, of course, to high school, and he or she doesn't take math until the second semester. He or she goes through a period of time there, of four months, five months, where they're taking no math. That's in Grade 10.

Now I hear the arguments, and I don't want to get overly involved in the argument of semestering, but let me tell you, if a school of the status and stature of the Cobequid Educational Centre doesn't have semestering, I think it would be a model case to look at. Here's an argument, perhaps, for an important case study, look at what CEC kids are doing, in math in particular, but let's look at some other courses to be fair, as opposed to another major high school, such as Auburn Drive High School, and of course we all know where Auburn Drive High School is on the ranking. I know people say, oh, we never look at that stuff. You're not a teacher if you don't look at what AIMS does to us once a year and the trauma they cause in our communities.

I want to move to another topic, if I may. I received an e-mail from a parent very concerned about a recent article that Mr. Conrad covered in The Herald. This is the article in connection with the porn on the elementary schools' computers, which sparks an Internet alarm. I don't have to get into the details, I know the minister is well aware of these issues, and this is an issue of real concern for parents, it's a concern for teachers. I know it was a concern for me, because there were so many times when I would be monitoring a class or assisting a teacher when he or she was so busy with various other things, and I always sort of lived in fear of going into that computer room, thinking, oh my God, they're going to ask me a question. I can turn it on, and I can do some e-mail and perhaps some other things, but don't ask me anything more. Young people are adventuresome when it comes to everything, but they're truly adventuresome when they get on that keyboard or they get behind the screen.

I've been asked by parents to ask the minister at this time whether the department is going to review this issue and, furthermore, would there be any kind of recommendations forthcoming to school boards across the province on the concern that was brought to our attention - this young man from Southdale school in Dartmouth? I was wondering if the minister could comment on this, because this is the first of many of these types of issues that, unfortunately, we might have to deal with.

[Page 137]

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, I guess I would say, in response to that, the Department of Education, like schools and teachers, always does their very best to keep inappropriate materials away from young people and, indeed, out of the classroom. I can remember back when I was in the classroom business discovering, much to (Interruptions)

I actually was going to talk about that, because that was, back in those days, one of the things that did occasionally make its way into schools. One of the things you really hoped as a teacher was that you wouldn't be the one who walked down the aisle and saw the kid either reading the filthy pocketbook during downtime or some sort of a magazine which displayed probably - I'm not so sure how I would describe it. I see the Leader of the Official Opposition looking and wondering how I'm going to describe this.

AN HON. MEMBER: We all are.

MR. MUIR: Anyway, I think everybody knows what I'm talking about, probably. (Interruptions) Pictures. No, I've never seen one of those myself. (Interruptions) Back on the Internet, this has been a problem right through. Indeed, the honourable member will know very well that there have been times where there have been materials that have gone into schools that people have objected to, and it turns out they were authorized and they were not suitable.

Now, I know you're talking about a different situation. This, in this case, was pornography on the Internet. That was a very unfortunate situation. I'm happy to say that the teacher responded, and I guess it was a substitute teacher in this case, in the most appropriate way possible. The incident was dealt with in the way it should have been. We all have to work to protect young people from information. I'm told that in this case the young person, where the - I'll use the word - complaint or the concern was brought forward, this was not a site that was found as a result of browsing the Internet at the school. The information I received was that a couple of young people had found this site someplace - probably from their home or wherever it may have happened to be, maybe somebody else's - and had come to school and using the computer, ran that site up and then invited this young person to come and look at it. Now that, as I understand it, is second-hand.

[4:00 p.m.]

I can tell the honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect that all schools try to teach students and teachers the most appropriate ways to use resource materials - in this case the Internet. The department and most schools access our EDnet server and through EDnet we also provide boards with software they can use to block inappropriate sites. The really practical challenge is if you're going to use it, there has to be a code of conduct and a standard for using that to try to block millions of sites. I can tell you, I don't think it's possible and secondly, the way the young people are so technologically literate, I think if you block them all at 3:00, by 3:30 they would have found a way around it.

[Page 138]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before I recognize the member for Timberlea-Prospect, I just want to remind you that you have less than seven minutes left. Thank you.

MR. ESTABROOKS: The term "firewalling" or whiting out or various other ways of dealing with this issue, the mother involved wants pre-approved Internet sites, making sure this sort of thing doesn't happen again. It's a challenge for this particular board at this time but it's something that we are going to meet time and time again.

In the few moments I have remaining, I would like to turn the attention to some other topics. They are topics that are of concern to teachers.

I'd like to ask the minister if he could comment on the fact that markers fees this year - actually, it would be last year, 2004 - as outlined in the Supplement to the Public Accounts for the year 2004, under the title of Markers Fees, have gone up from $105,000 in 2003 to $211,742 - markers fees. The question I'm asking, a question that has been brought to my attention by another teacher, is are the markers fees just the salaries to have the people come in to mark various standardized tests, correspondence courses - I don't even know if we still have correspondence courses - what does that money involve?

In 2004 under Markers Fees in the Supplement to the Public Accounts, it's $211,740 where in the previous year, 2003, it was $105,000. That's a fair increase.

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to have to get back to the honourable member with that information, I don't have it at my fingertips.

MR. ESTABROOKS: We've had a pretty civil exchange, if I can say, and I know we have had our difficulties at times when we look at value for dollar. I want the minister to know that when this book arrived on our desk last Friday, as I sat here thumbing through the book, looking at that topic, of course, which comes up every year for the past number of years, I received notes from the media if I could come out and comment. Not that I'm bashful on that particular comment but I look at what's spent on hotels and my concern is, is this for dollars? Is this for salaries included in what the markers are being paid, and that under no circumstances is this a separate item for other expenses they could incur while they are here in Halifax in some of these hotels? I bring it up because it concerns me to the fact that this is a fair chunk of change, it has gone up appreciatively from one year to the next, so I guess the answer that I've heard is that you, at this stage, are not aware of what this $211,000 includes, whether it's the salaries or stipends - if that's the appropriate term - for markers, or whether it includes other dollars in terms of the lunches or various other things.

I know my time is quickly going but I want this to be on the record. Teachers ask me what did the department spend on coffee and lunches this year? You can say all the talk about cheap media, playing to the crowd, grandstanding, but that strikes home with teachers. When I was at Brookside Junior High School on Monday morning, presenting an award to

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two young students who were both going to UBC to represent this province, the guidance counsellor, Bonnie Steeves, lifelong friend, Mount Allison University graduate said, that sends the wrong message.

I know the minister could say, well, to the union agreement and all the other things involved, but that very school last May and June had teachers reaching into their own pockets. So please be clear on the fact that when some of these issues are brought up - I've been asked to bring them up, I bring them up regularly, I'll continue to bring them up - they concern the fact that when we have a classroom teacher who is reaching into his or her own pocket to supply classroom materials, and then we can say it's $100,000 for hotel rooms, let me tell you, that sends the wrong message. I thank you for your time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Member, you did have a few seconds left, I cut you off a little early but maybe we'll add it on the next time, just a few seconds. At this time I would like to thank you for your comments today. I will now recognize a member from the Liberal caucus and your time starting is 4:08 p.m. You have one hour in turn.

The honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park.

MS. DIANA WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, I'm looking forward to the next hour. As the minister knows, it has come a day or so early from what I was expecting but I have lots of questions. I should say that I have come more recently to this portfolio as the critic in the last two months. I have always followed it closely as a parent and as an MLA for my area, and there may be some questions that you will have felt you answered in the past and I may ask you again because I'm still laying down that foundation.

The three areas I have for my critic areas actually overlap quite a bit I find, one being Immigration, the other Municipal Affairs where we have the mandatory education funding and supplementary funding issues, and then finally, the largest of the three, Education.

One of the things that I had been struck with since coming into this area is just how vast it is, the number of things that fall under the Department of Education are quite astounding at times. Everything really from preschool, all the way to university, post-secondary, training, preparing for work, labour force charting and so on, so it really covers an awful lot of ground and I think even 10 hours may not be enough for estimates, although we may all be tired of it by then.

I wanted to start by going directly to the budget. I know we had that discussion, this is an education budget according to the government. I noticed today in your preamble you said it's one of the largest investments in education ever. I thought that remained a little unclear after Budget Day, whether it was, in fact, the largest or one of the largest, whether it needed to be qualified a little bit.

[Page 140]

The other thing that struck me the second day after the budget came down, was how the news media had so many different figures that they quoted in terms of what was the amount. I don't know if that struck the minister, and the deputy minister as well, but in one article Cathy Nicoll said $42 million was pumped into education; Amy Smith says, $71.7 million in total, which I think is what was actually quoted in the Budget Speech; and there are a number of other amounts touched on. One of them here, Marilla Stephenson says $51 million; $67 million which I think is what was actually quoted in the Budget Speech; and there are a number of other amounts touched on. One of them says $51 million; $67 million Education boost. They're all somewhat different, anywhere between that $42 million and $71 million total. So I wonder if you could shed some light on that, and just give me a little bit of background on what is where. I know you had some of those figures in your preamble as well. I would like to have that clarified, because I did think that that was rather confusing.

MR. MUIR: I guess I could be rather lighthearted about that. If it's reported, obviously it's true, so all of those figures are true, obviously, but they aren't. The actual increase, the Department of Education, was $71.5 million and change. The assistance to universities, if you forget about the $23 million we gave them in March, was a total of $71.9 million.

If I could just go back, I remember the honourable member and I had a bit of an exchange the day of the thing, about whether we use the term "largest increase". You had gotten information to show that you felt it was not the largest increase. I think you were going back to 1998-99. The difference in that, the reason we were not talking about the same thing - indeed we weren't talking about the same thing - you were talking about the increase in budget with the residential property assessment included in it. We went back to the Estimates Book, because we had to find out if we were wrong. Our figures were simply the Department of Education contribution, exclusive of the residential property assessment. That was the reason our figures were not the same, or our interpretation was not the same.

MS. WHALEN: If we're talking just strictly about the Primary to Grade 12 expenditures, could you just give me the total figure that's going into that? You've split that up again, a number of different ways, the grants directly to school boards and then some of your special initiatives and perhaps money spent in head office at your Trade Mart Building. Could you split that up, how much is actually getting out to the school boards, and where the difference is; is it $53 million and change, I think that's what we said was for Primary to 12?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, the increase to the public school system, which is the P to12 system, was $53.694 million. That includes public school education funding for public schools the learning resources credit allocation, repairs and renovations to schools, the Acadian and French language services, also the contribution to the teachers' pensions and the school capital amortization.

[Page 141]

These are the things that are included in public education funding for public schools: the learning resources credit allocation - that would be, for example, the books over there in the book bureau - the facilities, the money for repair and renovation of schools; the Acadian and French language services; teachers' pensions; and the amortization for school buildings.

MS. WHALEN: Could you tell me how much is in there for the contribution to teachers' pensions, and maybe you could reference the page you're on? I may have it here, I think I have all the sections.

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, that's Page 5.3 of the Supplementary Detail.

MS. WHALEN: Again, could you tell me how much is in there for the teachers' pensions that you mentioned? Is that anything additional or is that just the regular annual allotment?

MR. MUIR: The addition to the teachers' pensions is 3.3 per cent or $1.6 million.

[4:15 p.m.]

MS. WHALEN: I'd like to go for a minute, if I could, to the immigration area. I understand that with the establishment of an Office of Immigration, some of the programs that were previously run through either Education or through Economic Development that related to immigration initiatives would have been transferred over. Can you identify anything from your budget that would have been in last year's budget that's now moved to the Office of Immigration?

MR. MUIR: I guess it's one of those nebulous answers. The Department of Education was really responsible for English Second Language, although primarily, as you would know, in the constituency which you represent, they offer a lot of English Second Language in the schools out there, but that was primarily funded by the Halifax Regional School Board. We have included money in our budget this year for English Second Language, some of which will flow to the school boards. Also, if you look at it that way, the Office of Immigration also has some money for English Second Language, and some of that will flow as well.

MS. WHALEN: I would like you to be a bit more specific, if it's possible. As I say, number one, we could go directly to the ESL funding, because I understood from our discussion the day we heard about the Hogg report and what was in that, that no longer would we be requiring the Halifax Regional School Board to pay for that through supplementary funding or with their supplementary dollars, but that the Department of Education will now take responsibility for ESL in the schools. So could you give us a figure that you have for that? My understanding is they currently have, I think it's 11.3 ESL teachers in the Halifax Regional School Board, I don't know if there are any in other boards.

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You had made the point on the Hogg report that it seemed to be - the lion's share at least - going to HRM, our school board here, and therefore it wasn't necessary to put it into the funding formula, because it didn't apply to all of the boards. So could you be specific in terms of what your plans are for ESL, please?

MR. MUIR: I would say that our plans as a department, probably more formally than in the past, does recognize that ESL is a bigger player in our public education system - I think maybe people realize it, but didn't recognize it, really, financially. Clearly, the English Second Language is not really seen as a subject that was included in the public school programs for Nova Scotia.

We have allocated $100,000 this year. Now you mentioned, with the Halifax Regional School Board, I think you said they had 11 ESL teachers. I don't know how many full-time teachers they have. That would really be the question, I suspect. The other thing is you may wish to ask my colleague, the Minister of Immigration, about the amount of dollars, the specifics of the amount of money that he has in his budget for ESL. My understanding is it's $0.25 million, but you would do better to address the questions about the specifics of that money to him.

MS. WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, I'm disappointed in the minister's answer, that there's only $100,000 set aside for ESL. Perhaps the Minister of Immigration would like to take a question. (Interruptions) Okay, I'll catch you then. My understanding would be the Office of Immigration would help with the training of adults who need ESL. They're a big issue in the whole immigration strategy and our aims to help people come to Nova Scotia. But in our school system, directly in our schools, there's a tremendous need.

I checked my notes, from having spoken to Carol Olsen, the Superintendent of Halifax Regional School Board, it's 11.5 teachers. I don't imagine that many of them could be part-time, because I know there are 80 students sitting in Halifax West High School who take ESL almost on a full-time basis. They're not able to integrate into the high school program, into the academic subjects there, because they don't have the basic language skills yet to do that. Actually, it is a problem.

I'm sure the minister and the deputy minister have considered this. When we're encouraging newcomers here - I just want to make sure you're listening, as well - as they arrive here a lot of them come with teenagers and older children. It's harder for them to get the language and then integrate into the system and still graduate.

We've got a problem if they arrive at the age of 16 or 17 without language. They're arriving in our high schools and they're getting some ESL, they're learning some language, but we have to be able to somehow get them the skills so that they can graduate and they can move on, and be productive in our society and get on to the universities or higher education through community college or whatever.

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So it is a real, I think, critical element of our planning for the immigration strategy and for looking after HRM schools, where we have the majority of our immigrants who are arriving and choosing to live in HRM, many of them in Mainland North, as I've said before in the House, often. I think it's unquestioned that Halifax West High School has the highest percentage of ESL students. We have support workers from the YMCA, and I think they're paid for federally, but they're in every one of the schools in Mainland North. All of the elementary, junior high and high schools have a support worker in there, helping and supporting the work of ESL teachers.

But $100,000 doesn't go very far when you consider a teacher's salary. That's not even two full-time teachers, is it? If they're Teachers Union teachers, their average salary, I believe, is about $55,000 a year. That won't go very far, that's really my point. That would be nice, to have some after-school programs and some extracurricular programs that could be paid for out of that, but it is a disappointment.

I'm sure others will share my concern, that enough money hasn't been placed in that. It would be very simple to find out from the HRSB how much they are currently allocating for ESL teachers in the board. At 11.5 teachers, I was told that is not sufficient. That was the comment from the Superintendent of the Halifax Regional School Board, still not adequate is the comment I had, where they put as much resources as they can there. So they will still be dipping in deeply with the supplementary funding dollars or we'll have students who will be doing absolutely nothing in our schools for the lack of an ESL teacher.

So I wonder if the minister could give me some background as to why they decided on this $100,000. Really, was it your intention that supplementary funding would continue to pay for ESL?

MR. MUIR: I thank the honourable member for that question. The honourable member may or may not know a bit of my background. I began my career in education, working with students, trying to help them acquire English language skills. Some would say I was not very successful. Anyway, the amount of money, and I think there are two ways to look at it, one is to say it's not enough, and I'm not going to go so far as to say it is enough, but the other way to look at it, more positively, is it's a huge advance over what was there before. The department has, this year, as I said, formally recognized the English Second Language issue, particularly in the Halifax Regional School Board and also in the school board in my area, the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board.

The money which is allocated is basically for eight-twelfths of a year, so you would multiply that by 12/8 and you get some more. Then the money which is in the Office of Immigration, the $250,000 there, that will be flowed through to the Department of Education for distribution. So if you take that $350,000 and you multiply it by 12/8, it's not that bad if you're looking at it on an annual basis. I could say it's sufficient, perhaps not, but it's a lot better than where we were.

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MS. WHALEN: I wonder if you could just describe to me again this 12/8, what exactly is this formula you're using? Again, you'll forgive me if it's something that should be apparent.

MR. MUIR: Just really the school year, there will be eight months in the school year, the teachers' contract year would begin in August, so you would have August through the end of March, and that would be eight months.

MS. WHALEN: Perhaps we'll return to that subject later on. I'm going to leave it for now. Again, I would like to express my concern that it isn't enough. I think that the Halifax Regional School Board might have expected, after your announcement from the Hogg report, that they could reallocate the money they've been spending from supplementary funding on ESL and spend it on some other very worthwhile extra programs that go beyond the core offerings that the Department of Education sets. As we know, in Halifax and Dartmouth, we've been very fortunate to be able to provide some extras beyond the very minimal standards we believe are set by the province, so extra French, extra phys. ed., more class time, smaller class sizes, 4+ Programs, a lot of other extra programs that are needed in the urban area and probably needed across the province in many cases.

So I think it's a bit of a disappointment to see that given that we were told it wouldn't be in the funding formula, that it isn't really going to be covered, ESL is not going to be recognized properly. I agree you've made one step, you've put a line item in your budget which says, yes, ESL probably has some impact, or some responsibility rests with the Department of Education, but frankly it is so little, it's not going to begin to touch the need. So I'm still very disappointed and I think that has to be mentioned.

I'd like to ask you about the ongoing discussion about having a student information system that would track students from the time they enter school, as they progress through, and actually find out where they're going, how many are succeeding and so on. This is something I think other jurisdictions have adopted. I understand at least two school boards are looking at going it alone, because there has been no evidence that the Department of Education is going to introduce that initiative. Could you give me some background, please, from your perspective on a student information system?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, this year there has been $415,000 allocated for a student information system which will track many of those things that the honourable member has mentioned. However, I guess one has to remember that a lot of schools try to track graduates, it's in their interest to do that. Universities try to track graduates. I guess they do it because they like to keep account of alumni for a couple of reasons. Some of the information that we would be tracking would be voluntary. We would be relying on others to provide that information. As long as the student is in the school system, then clearly their records - they always have been recorded.

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When I was in the business, we used to have things called CUME cards. Some of you may remember those yellow things that folded over. Indeed, you may have been there in the CUME card years, too. We always did that, and it was a travelling record. It did cease when the student finished school. There would be some schools that would then choose to try to track their graduates, and how long that tracking would last, I'm not sure.

MS. WHALEN: If I could, I would just like to give you an illustration of what can happen when there is no tracking, which is the current situation. I had a parent who was trying to get a tuition agreement for their child who has special needs, and wanted to go to one of the three approved schools. The rule is clear for this tuition agreement, you have to have spent a full year in a public school somewhere. You have to have had a year where you tried it in a public school.

So, in their case, they went back to the school their child had started at in Primary, and in fact the school had no record of their child ever being there, none. They knew that she had been there. In fact, she didn't spend a full year there. It was a horrendous year. She began as a Primary student. There was a lot of change in the school, and some of the teachers remembered it anecdotally, they remembered that was the year the principal changed, the vice-principal changed, the Primary teacher left, and there was all kinds of change and uproar during that year. The student had only stayed about seven or eight months before they took her out and put her in a private school.

However, there was no record, none at all, in the school system that she had even been there. They could, in fact, have said that she had been there a whole year, and that would have done them very well because they want her to go with a tuition agreement. The Department of Education policy says you have to have been a full year, at some point in time, in the regular public school to show that it didn't work, that the program didn't work for that student.

It's kind of shocking to think that you could go back to a school your child attended

and have no physical record at all that she'd been there. I'm just really surprised that that would exist. I don't know if you have an explanation as to why that would be for any of our public schools, not to have records of who has attended. Is there no central record kept of students? This is what I think is really missing, that you can't even tell who has been or where they've gone or when they've transferred to other schools. It's just very surprising. So I wonder if you could just relate to that example?

[4:30 p.m.]

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, I can understand how perplexed the parent may be, if they went to a school where their child had attended and there was no record. If it hadn't been forwarded, maybe it was forwarded to the private school where the child went or something like that. I can't explain that. All I can say is that there would have been a

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provision for a record to have been kept, and if they didn't keep the record, that's probably a reflection on the record keeping as opposed to the records system.

MS. WHALEN: I'd like to know the $415,000 that you have allocated this year - I'm assuming it's a new allocation for this student information system - is it just the tip of the iceberg, is it just going to begin as a pilot? I have no idea if that would be enough to get us there. I think it's probably far short of the amount of money you need to really institute this broadly. Could you explain to me how it's going to be used this year?

MR. MUIR: The honourable member is correct, Mr. Chairman. This, as she said, is the tip of the iceberg. Really, it's for us to find out what type of information we should be collecting, what would be the best form of that information. Obviously, we'll be doing some consultation on this. The intent is that, hopefully by the end of this year, we will be able to put an RFP out for a system.

MS. WHALEN: Well, that's good to know. So, really, this is a planning year, you're going to sort of line up the ducks and find out what you need, and go for an RFP. That's very good to hear. I'd like to talk a little bit about the tuition agreements themselves. I know there's a lot more I need to understand about them, but my understanding is it's a two-year agreement only, that if your child qualifies under the guidelines for a tuition agreement - and I do applaud you for bringing it in, that was in last year's budget, I believe, a new initiative. It was something that a lot of parents were extremely relieved and pleased to see brought into play.

I'm wondering about a couple of things. Number one is the appeal process, if you're not accepted. I indicated to you that I had spoken to one person. We don't need to go into specifics, but they were not accepted. There is a very, I don't know whether I'd call it an unusual appeal system. You have a committee of one, I understand, which struck me as odd. I don't know if it's a regular committee or if it's struck each time an appeal is made, a different committee is struck. I wonder if you could talk about what appeal process is in place?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, there are guidelines for the Tuition Support Program. As the honourable member knows, this was the first year for that program. I do want to say that, taking everything into consideration, I'm pleased with how well that has worked. The guidelines were developed in consultation with school people. On reflection of this point in time, which is roughly about seven months through the school year, it has worked quite well.

However, there have been situations which have arisen this year, where circumstances indicate that maybe there are some things that need to be rethought. This is the reason for the appeal provision. If somebody felt that the guidelines were being inappropriately applied or they had, for one reason or another, a child whom they felt, because of various extenuating circumstances, should be qualified for the Tuition Support Program, we have established a

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one-person board of appeal, and that person has a two-year appointment. The person who was selected, it went through a rigorous process, I can tell you. Although I have not spoken to the person since her appointment, or actually prior to it, I do know the person from her work as a special educator and as a resource person, a leader in education for people who are having some difficulties in the process.

I think the selection committee has come up with a very good selection for the person who will hear those appeals. The person is an experienced educator, who has had a whole lot of experience in the field of special education. She will understand education needs.

MS. WHALEN: In terms of the appeals that are done, would this special educator have flexibility when she listens to these cases, is there flexibility to go beyond the two years or perhaps waive this requirement for a full year in the public school system when she assesses the needs and the medical records and the condition and, let's say, the stage at which the children themselves are at? Is there room for flexibility, or is this just going to be one of those cut-and-dried kind of appeals?

MR. MUIR: I guess the answer is yes and no. Clearly there are criteria set for that program, and the number one thing would be, would the person be dealt with within the criteria of the program. Secondly, there would also be some flexibility, because, as I said, this is an emerging thing. When this program was designed, there may be some circumstances that people who designed the program did not reckon upon when the program was put in place. Quite frankly, two or three of those things, which I've talked to staff about, I've said, look, I think when we are going through this, there may be some things that we have to rethink. By and large, she is going to try to be as objective as she can.

MS. WHALEN: I think what you're suggesting is that the program - you say it's still unfolding, therefore it's a little bit of a work in progress. Is that true? And if that's the case, then, will she be able to make recommendations where she sees shortcomings, if there are appeals made and shortcomings identified? Will that person also be somebody you might turn to to improve the program?

MR. MUIR: Certainly we would. As she goes through this process with these appeals, which aren't going to be too many, she may draw things to our attention. If she can suggest any strengthening of the program, clearly we would welcome her input.

MS. WHALEN: I'd like to go so far, Mr. Minister, as to suggest that you should, in fact, ask her what occurs in this first year or two as she goes through these appeals. I think she was only recently appointed, and that if there were appeals, she may not have seen very many of them as yet. What I'd like to know is, will she be specially remunerated for that? I assume she's a teacher in the school system now. Is this a special appointment? It's surely not a full-time appointment. Could you give me some more idea about that, please?

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MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, she will receive a per diem plus the usual expenses.

MS. WHALEN: Are you able to tell us the per diem for that position?

MR. MUIR: I don't have that information with me, but I would be quite happy to table it when I get it.

MS. WHALEN: Again, I'd like to just raise the idea that I don't think a single person can be a board of appeals. I don't think a single person qualifies as a board. One of my concerns with a lot of the government programs we have is we do administrative appeals, that's very common in the Community Services areas, I think, and Health. A single person reviews the work they've already done, and we call it an administrative review. Sometimes there is no other appeal process. This is one person, she's not sort of assessing her own work, but it's still only one person. It doesn't have the same, I think, objectivity that you'd have if you had a committee or a board.

I'm sure there are people who would serve on that kind of a committee, who probably wouldn't need to be remunerated, who would be stakeholders in the community. I sit on the Human Resources Committee and I know people apply regularly for agencies, boards and commissions without any remuneration. I just wonder if that has been looked at and if we could expand that to be more than one person, because if I was a person who was denied the tuition agreement, and I had what I felt was a very valid case, I would want to feel that I had been heard by more than one person. Could you perhaps comment on why the decision was made to have only one, and comment on whether or not that could be changed?

MR. MUIR: With respect, and I suppose we may change our minds someday, but somebody once described a camel as a horse constructed by a committee. What we want is this process to flow as quickly and as smoothly as possible. If it turns out in the fullness of time that the one-person appeal board is not the most appropriate, then clearly it would be revisited. I would also remind the honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park that this is not unusual in the system of education, as a matter of fact, if a teacher is dismissed and they appeal their dismissal, it is a one-person board of appeal that they go to.

MS. WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, just a couple of direct questions on the tuition agreement. Can you tell me how many people actually applied and were given the tuition support this year, and the total budget that you had allocated for that, and if the whole budget was absorbed or used?

MR. MUIR: Like the honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park, we, too, are here a day and a half or two days in advance of when we expected to be here. I will have to provide that information for her tomorrow.

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MS. WHALEN: All right. I hope your staff have taken note of that and we'll get it in a couple of days, that's fine. I think it would be very interesting to see whether or not we have, in fact, had the demand or whether the demand has outstripped the available funds. I think that it's very important for us to know about that as we talk about special education as well during these estimates.

Let me just see now, I'd like to go to - there are so many different things, as I said, in this entire program. I think I'll go to one specific thing.

One of your aims this year is raising the bar you said, that's one of the six slogans we have. Raising the bar, I'm all for that, I think parents would all like to see that and so would the teachers, and certainly the students would like to see that. One of the things you mentioned was more advanced classes.

I have a recent, albeit local issue that I think may have across the province some implication and that is the funding for high school and how many credits the schools are actually funded for each student. The problem arose - and I'll give you the background and then you can comment on it; I see you're listening and that's very good. What has happened is that some of the students at Halifax West High School have asked for eight courses in Grade 11 and they have been told - which is the number of courses they are taking on the semester system in Grade 10, as they move into Grade 11 they've asked for the full number again, eight courses, please - no, you can have seven and you can have the eighth maybe, if there's room in the class we'll accommodate you, but no guarantee.

When I brought this up with the principal I was told that they are funded for eight, seven and six, so as you move to Grade 12 you would be encouraged to have two free classes. In Grade 11 they encourage you to have one and I can speak from personal experience, my own son's moving into Grade 11, he's quite happy to have one free. He's not among the group that is asking for the full eight, he has been told by his guidance counsellor that seven will be sufficient and he'd be well off to take one free. But other parents have written me and said they don't want their children - and neither do their children according to them - to spend a class a day, or however often it comes up, in the cafeteria doing nothing. I think often it's the most gifted students who want to have the full option to take electives, to take some advanced courses, to fill their entire timetable with classes.

I have written to the principal and I have actually copied to you, as well, Mr. Minister, and the school board, but he said that he's not funded for 24 courses for all the students in high school, he's funded for 21. That affects his staffing and the number he's able to hire. It is one of the biggest high schools - probably the biggest at 1,600 students - so he said given that they're big, they actually have more flexibility, they are probably able to accommodate students but they're not promising. These are students who are, and their parents are, rightfully annoyed that they're not being offered the opportunity to be scheduled in classes the full day. I wonder if you could comment because I think it goes up the chain to the school

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board and back to the Department of Education, according to what I'm hearing. Could you shed some light on that today, if 21 courses is what you are actually funding the high schools for?

[4:45 p.m.]

MR. MUIR: The way the department funds the school boards has no relation, really, to the number of courses that a student would take in high school. She would probably get a clearer explanation on that from perhaps the local school board member. That's not a policy or a directive or anything from the Department of Education. I expect it probably has something to do with the way the school board allocates staff to their high schools.

MS. WHALEN: I wonder if the minister could clarify then, you don't think this would be a problem in any other school board, is that what you're saying? It would be unique to this particular school board?

MR. MUIR: I don't know whether it is or not. It is certainly not something that has been drawn to my attention and I look forward to receiving a copy of the letter to which she referred, I haven't seen it yet. That would not be something that would normally be addressed by the Department of Education. To be quite frank, most school boards do have a formula of how they allocate staff to a school, they generally do it on a numbers basis. I expect the situation in the school to which the honourable member is referring, probably has something to do with the formula of the Halifax Regional School Board when it allocates teachers to schools.

MS. WHALEN: I would like to give just a bit more background on it and perhaps it's something the minister or the deputy could have somebody look into as well from our end, just to be absolutely sure. It may relate back to just a lack of funding to the school boards, that they feel this is one way they can save money, by allocating less for teachers.

I'm not suggesting, as I say, that all students in high school want to take eight credits every year and have 24 when they graduate but there are some, and those are often the best students, and these are the ones that you're talking about when you say raise the bar, make sure they have options and opportunity. As I say, many others may not take that full amount and may, in fact, need the extra time off to study and prepare. If my understanding is right, you need 18 credits to graduate from high school, or 18 are required courses.

If you are in French immersion, however, you need 21 credits and this was confirmed by the principal as well, that they have nine credits they have to take for French immersion and there are about 400 students or 300, I think, at Halifax West who are taking French immersion. They have nine required courses, they have no choices in the nine because of the way things have worked out in their school. They have nine that are provided and they all have to take those nine, then to take the other requirements for graduation, that takes them

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right up to the 21 credits, so they actually are left with no room, or no flexibility in their schedule, if 21 is all they are allowed. As I say, the staffing is definitely being done there on the basis of eight, seven, and six for Grades 10, 11 and 12.

So I think it is a real problem not to have that built in or maybe not to have the extra staffing component at the high school level. I wouldn't be surprised if we found that that was almost the basis of our funding to the school boards perhaps. Could you look into it? You're absolutely sure, I see that. I guess I'd just like an assurance that that isn't built into the expectation that students would take fewer credits.

MR. MUIR: I can assure the honourable member that that is not built into the staffing formula. What the individual school board uses as a staffing formula, that's not something used by the Department of Education. Really, her inquiry should go to the board.

MS. WHALEN: Well, I have sent it, as I say, and I have also spoken to the school board member for our area who told me that theoretically, all students should be able to take the eight courses, but in practice that may not happen. That wasn't really a very satisfactory answer that theoretically they are allowed but we're having students being encouraged by their guidance counsellors to accept seven and just go away and don't take that extra one and when you get to Grade 12, that will be two frees to sit in the cafeteria or just basically waste your time when you are, in fact, probably a gifted student. So I think that that is something that needs to be looked at and I'm sure you have many researchers in the Department of Education who look into things like that, so I'm going to ask you to turn some attention to it and just see why that is. I'll ask the school board myself, but I think it would help (Interruptions) I'd like you to look at it as well, definitely.

I'd like to quickly go to student loans, that happens to be the next point I had written down after that from your opening comments. You talked about the income threshold being increased for student loans so that the family income would be higher in order to qualify, I guess, or students can get them even if their family has a higher income. Could you give me the idea of the actual figure that you're looking at for that? You didn't tell us how much.

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, under the current guidelines, if the parental income was $50,000 they would be expected to contribute a little bit more than $4,000. Under the proposed guidelines, the recommended parental contribution, the amount that the parents would be required to contribute would be reduced by a little bit more than 50 per cent. It is going from $4,012 down to $1,976. If the net family income was $60,000, under the current scheme the parental contribution is $8,942, and it would then go down to $6,069, which is a difference of $2,873. If the net family income was $70,000 the current parental contribution is $13,800 and change, and it would go down to $10,973, which is a decrease of about $2,865. If the net parental income was about $80,000, currently, they are asked to contribute $18,734 and under the recommended scheme, the amount that the parents would be asked to contribute would be $15,877, which is a decrease of $2,857.

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MS. WHALEN: Thank you, that does help. I would like to know at what level parents begin to have to contribute. I guess we're looking at the threshold at which they have to start contributing to their children's post-secondary costs. Is that clear, the level at which it starts?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to inform the member that you have approximately 12 minutes left in turn.

MR. MUIR: I'm just taking one more peek before I attempt to answer that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the member like to make some comments while the minister is doing some research?

MS. WHALEN: Certainly, I'd be very happy to. I may be wrong but I thought it was previously around $35,000 at which the contributions began, so I'm interested to see at which family income level parents would be allowed not to contribute, because it is very hard at that level. Even a family income of $50,000 - you were mentioning the new amount - it's very hard to come up with thousands of dollars, even a couple of thousand which is the new level you said. Previously it was $4,000 and now we're looking at just under $2,000. I know it's very hard if the students find their families are earning too much and they're just not eligible for the student loans, because sometimes their families, given the circumstances, may not be able to contribute, so the students are left to fend for themselves, which is difficult.

I think we need to remember these are loans. The default rate on these loans is almost negligible nowadays, the rules have been changed over the years with that. You cannot in any way escape those loans and they are being repaid, students are very good about repaying those debts. Really, we're investing in the future by providing funds at the front end to help them get into university and seek an education. We know very well there's a good correlation between a higher education and higher income, and not only higher income but greater job satisfaction.

The studies I have read are showing that students who choose professions that are not highly paid like perhaps professions in the arts or non-profit sector, still have a much higher level of satisfaction after their education is complete in the jobs that they take, because they have had a choice and because, I think, they have been allowed to study and pursue things that are of particular interest. So it isn't always just for the money that they have done the higher education, but at the same time, it opens up to them avenues for very satisfying work.

As I said, anything we can do that helps to get the young people underway with their education, I think, is important and I'm sure that government agrees with me in that and I would like to hear, if you have the figure, the level at which a student becomes eligible for assistance.

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MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, we will have that number for the honourable member in short order. I just want to tell the honourable member that the Nova Scotia Student Loan Program uses the criteria that are laid down under the federal student loan program. What we're talking about, in response to the first question, improvements to the student loan program, I want the member to know, and I guess all members of the House, that my predecessor as Minister of Education, Honourable Angus MacIsaac, was very instrumental in raising that issue at CMEC, which is the Council of Ministers of Education in Canada. It probably was through his initiative, as much as anybody else, along with the other people in the Department of Education at that time. Obviously, it wasn't a spur of the moment thing that it started, but clearly, it was Nova Scotia's initiatives that had considerable influence with the federal government in improving the student loan program. I just wanted people to know that.

MS. WHALEN: I do have a question about the agreement we have in place for student loans. What I understand is that when you graduate you make two payments: you make one to the federal government to repay the federal portion of the loan and you make one provincially to repay the provincial portion of your student loan. At present, those are two totally separate bills and separate requirements. I heard of at least one - and this is just anecdotal - student who was making payments religiously on one of those, not aware that they were to make another one to the other body and found themselves delinquent on the other loan and received a threatening notice that they hadn't been making their payments, being unaware that these two were not linked.

I know that at least one other province has begun to harmonize the two so that a student who graduates can pay once and just pay back one cheque a month to whoever it be, whether it's provincial or federal and they work it out, it's harmonized. Can you tell me if there's anything in the works to do that, please?

MR. MUIR: I think it is a good idea and to be quite frank, we are pursuing that at the present time. Our service provider is the Royal Bank of Canada, the contract expires with them July 2006. We would like to integrate those two programs and perhaps you had written me a letter or I had heard from somebody I didn't know, I hope they didn't spend six years in university, I guess, if they didn't realize that the size of the payment they were making probably was a little small considering the loan that they had. (Interruptions) I agree with the principle of that, no question, that making one payment would make it a lot easier, but sometimes some of the cases that do come with some of these stories, despite the fact that you appreciate the general concept in which these problems lie, the specifics, you would have questions about.

[5:00 p.m.]

MS. WHALEN: In my earlier discussion about the Immigration budget and ESL, and some of those responsibilities, I think I was really touching on the edge of some of the silo

[Page 154]

thinking that sometimes goes on in government, that we're individual departments bearing the responsibility for a program that maybe you don't see it strictly as education and therefore it doesn't get done, it might be seen as an immigration issue or something different.

One of the concerns I have - and I raised them with you last year during estimates, and I only have a few minutes, I know - the idea that when we build new schools we don't look upon them as community facilities, we don't consider the use of those facilities by the wider community, and the benefit that they have to health and wellness, activity levels, sport, culture, and so on. I think you know where I'm going, I'm wondering, again, why the Department of Education doesn't recognize the need to provide facilities when they build new schools and doesn't even recognize the need to replace what is being torn down and lost in a community.

If we look at the example in downtown Halifax, both high schools have auditoriums, they have two gymnasiums between them and that wouldn't fall within your parameters for a new school. I'm wondering if you could speak to that for the last few minutes and maybe I'll get another question in still, thank you.

MR. MUIR: The Department of Education and this government have really gone to a template in trying to do new school construction. You've raised the issue of community use and as you know, last year the House passed legislation dealing with community uses of schools. We think that we're making very good progress on that and as the honourable member would know, one of the real problems that we had with the whole issue of community use of schools had to do with the initial P3 contracts that were drawn up.

Indeed, the honourable member was at the Trade Mart the day that we were able to announce that an agreement had been reached with Scotia Learning to resolve issues that probably should have been dealt with when the agreements were put in place initially, and they weren't, and unfortunately, it took some period of time and a major portion of that had to do with community use of schools and also the way some of the revenue that would come from school operations would be used for the benefit of the school community.

The issue of community use and I guess your question is, okay Department of Education, go build an auditorium in that school in downtown Halifax. I think that's probably the background. I guess the Department of Education would love to build an auditorium in every school that it builds in the province, but with respect, I've been on both sides of this argument.

In my home community a junior high school opened last year and the department had certain specifications for a gymnasium. People in the community felt that the specs weren't good enough, and so they went out and the town said, look, we want better community use of that facility and the town put in $500,000 so that that gym could be an improved site and accommodate the community. Millbrook First Nation put $100,000 into that school so that

[Page 155]

they could have an enhanced instructional cultural area for First Nation students. There was another group that put some enhancement money into the school as well.

Out in the South Colchester Academy I know that they wanted an improved gymnasium/auditorium situation there and again it was a matter of the community saying it's for community use. I know that the teachers out in the school committed $50,000 or $60,000 collectively as part of that enhancement. I know that over in Pictou County - and I'm referring to these, Mr. Chairman, simply because these are situations that have come to my attention and I attended the official openings since I have been Minister of Education - they wanted improved auditorium/gymnasium facilities in the two high schools that were recently built in Pictou County, and the community kicked in $1 million to do that.

As nice as it would be to provide that - and I would dearly love to write a cheque and say here, Citadel High, here's the money for your third gymnasium, here's the money for your auditorium, here's the money for the enhanced stage, here's the money for this. What the Department of Education is really charged with is the responsibility to provide core services for the students who attend school. Believe me, I believe in community use of schools and in enhancements.

I can remember - and the honourable member used to write me considerably - when I was a parent and I was involved in a school band auxiliary in that eminent institution that we have talked about on a couple of occasions today, Cobequid Educational Centre in Truro, the home of the Cougars. Mr. Chairman, when the school band - not the town band, not the band from Halifax West - used that auditorium it had to pay rent. I was one of those charged with raising money so that the school band could use that auditorium, and I believe that is still the practice.

I'm not supporting that, all I'm saying is that was a sore point for me. We used to sell oranges and grapefruit. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Thank you, Mr. Minister. I would like to thank the honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park today for her questions, we've enjoyed them very much. At this time, at 5:08 p.m., I would like to recognize the member for Cape Breton West, who has one hour in turn.

The honourable member for Cape Breton West.

MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I won't be using my full time during this juncture. I have a few short snappers for the minister. Perhaps I could indulge the deputy minister, I'm not sure if he's permitted to comment, but it's surrounding the issue of substitute teachers in the Province of Nova Scotia. Perhaps if the minister or deputy minister or somebody now available could give us some indication as to how many substitute teachers

[Page 156]

do we have listed in the province, and if it's possible, to give that on a school board by school board basis? That would be my first question.

Also, the waiting list with regard to substitute teachers, I understand, is quite lengthy. For example, I believe in the Halifax Regional School Board it may be somewhere in the vicinity of 600 substitute teachers; it could be somewhere in excess of 200 in the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board, I'm not sure. I'm hearing so many different numbers, I'm not sure which is correct. If I could receive the detail on a school board by school board basis.

What efforts are made by the province to work with the school boards to encourage them to hire some of the new teachers coming into the system as substitutes and hopefully, that would make them a long-term career teacher or teachers in the system, because there is increased concern that school boards are hiring teachers who have retired and are taken back sometimes on a contract basis, sometimes on a substitute basis, and they have the advantage of receiving considerable amount of benefit from their pension. It is good that the school boards are able to draw on the tremendous amount of experience that these school teachers have, but at some point there has to be a measure of fairness for the new teachers coming into the system. So the minister, I think, is being briefed on the essence of my question. Perhaps if he could respond.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the honourable Minister of Education completely aware of the question? Are you in a position to provide us some answer?

AN HON. MEMBER: It never stopped him before, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I know you were absent for part of the question. I just want to make sure you are fully briefed, so to speak.

MR. MUIR: Let me try, Mr. Chairman. I'm sure the honourable member will point it out if I'm missing part of it.

The first question was the number of substitute teachers by board in the province. We can provide that information and we will get it for you.

Secondly, you asked, the essence of your question was that boards are going back, perhaps in too many cases, using those people who have already left the system through retirement, is there any real policy which indicates that school boards should be giving these opportunities to newly-minted teachers who have not completed a career in teaching? The answer to that is there are no guidelines in place for that. Clearly I know your comment said, well, it is easy to go back to the tried and true and in some cases maybe that's so. You know we have many teachers now retiring at ages much younger than ever before. It used to be that teaching was a career that lasted until you were 65. Now we have a whole parcel of people,

[Page 157]

and you are seeing, actually, some of them in this Legislature, excluding my colleague, the member for Inverness, who didn't quite reach that distinguished plateau yet. It has to do with coming to the House in your mid-20s. Some of us didn't do that.

Quite seriously, in terms of replacement teachers and replacement staff, I think that school boards, in general, would be looking for - the teaching force is getting old. Therefore, it would pay dividends to look at the younger people who could provide longer service, I guess is what I'm saying.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, the minister indicated there are no guidelines surrounding this particular issue. Has there been any discussion or is there any consideration given to establishing some guidelines on this particular issue?

MR. MUIR: The department, as the honourable member would know, has been a sponsor of job fairs, I think for three years, in various places in the province where school boards have the opportunity to meet new graduates or people who have been in the system and don't have a permanent job. It's a difficult role. Certainly, I think the Nova Scotia Teachers Union's position would be that their preference would be that when you are looking for people to replace people in the system that you look at the newer people. But on the other hand, school boards are the ones that do the employing and in general, with the selection of substitutes, that task is designated usually to school administrators. I can also say that there are some subject areas for which it is difficult to get young substitute teachers. There just isn't the pool of people out there because if they have those skills, they are already working. So therefore, if you are looking for a substitute, you have to look at the established pool that might be available.

[5:15 p.m.]

One of the difficulties which we are all wrestling with in this province, and I know the honourable member for Cape Breton West would know this, that there are some areas where it is very difficult to get a qualified substitute, particularly in some of the more rural areas and some of the more specialized high school subjects.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, part of the concern is the fact that so many students go through university and then they go for their post-graduate study, receive their B.Ed. Sometimes they go to other institutions outside the province, whether it be UPEI, Fort Kent down in one of the New England States and other jurisdictions.

AN HON. MEMBER: Maine.

MR. MACKINNON: Maine, the northeastern part of Maine. They have these large student loans and they are just struggling. Even if they are able to acquire some substitute teaching time, it's for the most part at a set rate which is not very high. It's enough to perhaps

[Page 158]

put some bread and butter on the table but not meet all their obligations. I notice the minister made reference to the preferential thought by this Teachers Union, and that's good, but I think equally so the province has a bit of an obligation here. The fact that we are encouraging so many students to go into these programs, they incur a tremendous amount of debt. I'm not sure if we have a legal obligation but we certainly have a moral obligation to encourage all the stakeholders to have some type of a mechanism or a fairer hiring policy or guidelines or whatever to be able to create the best possible opportunity for these new teachers.

I think it would be advisable, I think it certainly wouldn't hurt to have the Department of Education sit down with the representatives from the Nova Scotia Teachers Union and representatives from the School Boards Association and perhaps any other stakeholders that would be deemed essential to the discussion, just to see if, in fact, if for no other reason, to develop a meeting of the minds and to encourage the respective stakeholders to give maximum opportunity to these young, bright, talented, well-educated individuals, because it's very discouraging. I find year after year a number of constituents who receive their B.Ed. have to leave the province to go teach in other provincial jurisdictions. It's very unfortunate.

If I could leave that with the minister and perhaps he and his department, I know they will certainly do their best to encourage all the stakeholders to come together and maybe at some point, given this evolutionary process and the abundant supply we have of substitute school teachers, I think it would be a win/win situation for all stakeholders.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm not sure if there was a question there.

MR. MUIR: I just will say that I will certainly take that under advisement. The issue of the young graduates is always difficult. I will also say that the Teachers Union has had a booth at the job fairs in making contact with them. It's kind of a - I don't know how to describe it - school substitute lists are like substitute lists for nursing or for other facilities where you have to keep a substitute list. You have to do it. I shouldn't be speaking personally but I have a child - not a child anymore - who works but in basically a full-time job that's not a full-time job. (Interruption) You know what I'm talking about.

The hospitals, I can remember the discussion where we were talking about the human resource issues around the health thing but if you take particularly these hospital situations, they have to have a call-in list. You can't get everybody a permanent job. If you give everybody a permanent job, you have a problem because when somebody is not there, I mean they say they deliberately keep the list because that's the way they have to function. So I understand but (Interruption) You don't understand, okay, but that's not new either. (Interruption) It's awkward but the point is well taken. I fully understand it and we will have those discussions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cape Breton Centre.

[Page 159]

MR. FRANK CORBETT: I will be sharing my time with a few of the other members in my caucus. The idea of how he comes around to supply teachers with substitutes, that's a pretty intriguing way to go about it. Keep them out there hungry and you will keep relief workers around.

Mr. Minister, there are a few things I would like to talk to you about. Some directly about the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board and some stuff on student loans. When I was looking at the Public Accounts, Volume 2, Agencies and Funds, I was looking where in the past it was listed - it wasn't this time, so I don't know if it was an oversight or whatever - and in the ancillary costs we would often see if they hired law firms and so on, that cost would be there. I didn't see it in this book this time so I'm just wondering if your department would know, when you give funding to school boards, like the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board, obviously they are responsible, ultimately, to the Department of Education for their spending. Do you know what that board spent in the 2004-05 year on labour relations costs outside of their own human resource department?

MR. MUIR: We don't have that information. We could find it out, I'm sure. One of the things - I'm sorry, you had mentioned 2004-05, we would be going back to 2003-04. I just want to clarify it. That would do it, okay. We will try to find that out.

MR. CORBETT: Mr. Minister, for the record, I misspoke and you are right.

Mr. Minister, if it's not obvious, the reason that I'm asking that question is because of just what had transpired at that board with a labour disruption and, indeed, there was a community perspective on that, that part of the problem was exacerbated by hiring people from outside of the board to do their human resource. So that's why I'm asking it. During that work stoppage, your department, had it ever inquired to the board about using outside human resource people and the cost of that?

MR. MUIR: In that particular situation, as it would be for any board in the province, negotiations were between the board and Local 1050 or the CUPE local, and the department was not a part of that negotiating team. They put their own team together and basically conducted their negotiations on their own. I can say that I guess it would vary around the provinces. There are some boards or some units or boards that would use their own personnel to do their negotiation. Others have a solicitor with them either to provide advice or actually, in some cases, I believe the solicitor is the lead negotiator.

MR. CORBETT: This is not just in the context of collective bargaining but also in other human resource matters, probably indicative of such things as processing grievances and dispatching of those grievances. I will wait, Mr. Chairman, for the minister to get back to me and I'm sure he will, if that's a separate cost that's attainable.

[Page 160]

Now just something else, a favourite hobby horse of mine, Mr. Chairman, and I'm sure this comes as no surprise to this minister, is the situation with the former Macdonald complex in Dominion. I know we've asked you questions in Question Period on it and at some point I realize that we are much more constrained by time in Question Period around some of these issues but I can't stress enough, and I probably will never pass up an opportunity to remind you, Mr. Minister, how important that facility would be to that town. We talked in an earlier set of questions from the Liberal caucus, you were asking about a gymnasium and so on. You quite rightfully put the position forward of the importance of not only the school but those types of facilities that go with schools to be seen as community property, if you will.

I just want to make sure, to get you on the record once again, the importance of having a facility in a community. I realize it wasn't your preference to close that building, it was a tragic accident with the building, but nonetheless, I would like for you to reiterate for the record what your perspective is, if Dominion should ever be able to get a new school, how would that be best accommodated?

MR. MUIR: I thank the honourable member and I know that subject is one which is - I am saying near and dear to his heart - an important one. He comes from that area. I think I will begin to answer it, Mr. Chairman, the way I have most times that question has been raised. One of the very good things that occurred, if you can say that something good occurred, is that in that geographical area, the students were able to be accommodated in very good schools. A number of the students went to BEC in New Waterford which, by the way, at one time was the largest high school in Nova Scotia. I believe it had a capacity of 2,000 students and currently it has less than 1,000, I think, so there was lots of room there. Also, the Glace Bay High School and the junior high schools there, they had lots of capacity. So the students, I think a few went to Bridgeport as well. There certainly was lots of capacity. In that area, as everybody knows, the school population is decreasing at a fairly rapid rate, a little bit more than it is - I mean every school board in the province is losing students. The Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board is not alone.

The issue was that the school board reacted and there was capacity in other schools so those students fortunately were able to continue their education without interruption and travelling outside your own community, I understand. They were used to going downtown Dominion to go to school and now they have the journey to New Waterford or to Glace Bay.

As the honourable member knows, the school board constructs a capital construction priority list and they have the opportunity to submit that every two or three years. If there was to be a new school to replace the one in Dominion which subsided, the recommendation would have to go on the school board's recommended list of capital projects and then once it left the school boards, if it made the school board's list of capital projects, of course the list would be prioritized and they would submit that. Then there is a broader committee

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which reviews all of the capital construction requests that come in. So it would get a double screen.

[5:30 p.m.]

Now that process has occurred this year, Mr. Chairman. I don't know whether that committee has finished its deliberations. I can tell you that whatever that committee has thought about hasn't landed on my desk yet. I can't tell you any more than that.

MR. CORBETT: Mr. Minister, I want to change focus a bit with questions around student loans. The importance of student loans, especially in the Cape Breton region, you can't understate it or overstate it, because the fact is when you're in an economy that could probably describe lightly as being soft but, in real terms, it's a very depressed economy, and therefore access to student loans, if you don't have access to a decent student loan system, you just are not going to get a post-secondary education, plain and simple.

More worrisome than the student loan process right off the top, is the many institutions there that have people graduating and coming out, and then we see defaults. Now I don't know the buzzword the department is using this year, whether it's designation or de-designation, but I want to tell you, Mr. Minister, that would be a disaster, to contemplate moving that forward for industrial Cape Breton and, indeed, for lots of other areas in this province.

Mr. Minister, what I want to ask you is, whatever you're calling it this year, whether it's designation or de-designation, what's the state of play of that word with your department this year?

MR. MUIR: The issue of designation, I guess we would say it's currently under review. We're not looking at Nova Scotia policy, we're looking at a national policy. We're working to try to get a national designation and policy. For those members who aren't familiar with that, what it comes down to is, if there is an educational institution whose graduates, whatever the number is, they have a very high percentage of default on student loans, i.e. that their graduates aren't able to get jobs - I guess is what it amounts to - then the institution would go under, I guess you would call it, a review status, and if things didn't improve, then probably its ability to accept students would either be restricted or perhaps rescinded.

The honourable member would know that we've had some history in our province not so much with public institutions - I don't like to use the word "private", because we have so many fine private trade schools in the province. We have many fine ones, but we did have a couple of fly-by-nighters, to be quite frank, that set up a shop and said, go get a student loan, and I don't think the students ever checked in. If they did, they never had a program, I'm told, of study that was of any quality.

[Page 162]

So it's really part of the accountability process. If the programs are quality programs, and I would think for an institution to be designated, it would be more than simply the number of students who were getting jobs, if it was a quality program. Clearly, the other thing that you would say, you could have a quality program for which there was absolutely no demand for graduates. If that happens to be the case, then, clearly, it's not in anybody's interest to allow that type of situation to continue. I can tell you that in any designation policy that may emerge from this federal-provincial framework, the factors, socio-economic conditions and a variety of other things would be taken into consideration before an institution was designated.

MR. CORBETT: Mr. Chairman, I hope the minister is accurate in what he's saying around the impact, as far as it goes, the socio-economic. When these things get out in the public they have a way of creating momentum that you can't stop, Mr. Minister. That's why, if you're even contemplating doing that, whether on a provincial perspective or a national perspective, I believe you have to get out in front and truly explain to people. What happens is that there's a ripple that goes through the various educational communities that people believe, oh, oh, they're going to shut us all down. We're not just talking about the private trade schools, if you will. We've talked to the student union at UCCB, which the fear, if it's the case, that you don't see that those (Interruptions) Cape Breton University, excuse me, I've been reminded by the member for Glace Bay, who I hear championed something around that, but I don't really recall it. Anyhow, it's important that if there are any myths out there about designation that they be nipped in the bud.

Now, something else around student loans that we should ask the minister about is the fact that so many of these - and this talks about default - are going into collection agencies. This is doing a real disservice to many of the students. I don't think these are people who are particularly trying to abdicate their responsibility of paying. In one instance, a young lady forgot, basically was a bit remiss in telling student loans that she would not be applying for a student loan in a certain year, had gotten money from her parents because of an education package that was provided to laid-off workers at Devco. Now when she went one year without a student loan, and couldn't pay it because she was still in university, the federal portion of that loan was put in a collection agency, and noway, nohow, would they retrieve it from there.

I think the only one you can speak on is the provincial portion of student loans, and how that goes through the system before it would arrive at a collection agency.

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, this is not one of the real great jobs of the Minister of Education. I deal with this every month. As the honourable member knows, in this case, it's the Royal Bank of Canada who is our student loan agent. A student, once they get out of the system, they're six months' interest free, and then they are expected to either make arrangements or to make payments. The bank would be dealing with the student, and if the

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student doesn't make payments for 180 days, then the bank would notify us. At that point, we pay the bank and, after that point in time, it would be put out for collection.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Chebucto.

MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon to the minister. Sir, I'd like to raise a few topics with you, if I may. I'd like to start with what is now our annual discussion about the new high school for the peninsula. There are a couple of points I want to raise about the new high school. I want to start by laying out what I understand to be the facts in the current state of play. I want to do this just to make sure that we have a common understanding of where things are at the moment. I would certainly ask that if your understanding is any different than mine that you let us know.

The current state of play with respect to the high school is that in terms of the overall planning, there is a Citadel High School steering committee that is really responsible for some of the planning. The current timetable that's contemplated, I understand, is that the projected opening has been delayed a year beyond what it was originally hoped to be, so it's now looking as if it's going to be September 2007 before the school is up and running. The site, of course, is the Bell Road site of the existing branch of the community college. I gather that building is to be completely demolished and a new building erected on the site.

There are to be two gymnasiums and an auditorium. One of the gymnasiums will be part of what is integral to the building and paid for, I gather, by the Department of Education. The second gymnasium is being paid for by HRM. The auditorium, however, is being paid for by residents of the peninsula, fundraising on their own, entirely independently. I gather that they still need about $2 million to continue to raise.

I have to tell you that they have at least some hopes that HRM might see fit to contribute additional monies beyond the monies they're allocating towards the second gymnasium, that is to say they hope they may want to contribute some funds to the auditorium. The situation being, of course, that the two high schools that now exist that are to be closed will revert to ownership by HRM. HRM will then be in a position to perhaps realize cash assets based on any sale from the land that they will gain control of, that is the site of St. Pat's High School and the site of QEH.

I gather that the QEH site has been tagged by the province as being of interest to it. I gather, of course, that the view there would be possible expansion of the hospital, which immediately adjoins the QEH site. That still leaves, of course, the question of the financial side of it between the province and HRM to be sorted out. I think, as well, of course, the question of what will happen with the St. Pat's High School site is entirely up in the air as well. I'm not aware of anyone who's coming forward and saying they have a commercial or any other proposal to make for that site, nor am I aware that HRM has any particular plans for it.

[Page 164]

I laid that out, because I just wanted to tell the minister what I understand to be the current state of play. I would certainly hope that if he has any different information about this that he would immediately let us know because, I assure the minister, this is a subject of keen interest amongst, shall I say, families, parents, voters on Halifax peninsula.

I'd like also to flag, for the minister, if I may, some associated questions that I don't think we've had occasion to discuss when we've had our annual talks about the high school; by annual I mean between myself and this minister and his predecessors. This has quite a history at this point. The point I want to flag for the minister now has to do with the actual design and the extent of the building that will actually go on the new site. With two gymnasiums and an auditorium, we're potentially looking at a fairly large building. It's not clear that the footprint of the existing building will actually be adequate. There is some discussion, I have to say, about the possibility of extending ownership of the site to include what is now the paddock area for the Junior Bengal Lancers.

[5:45 p.m.]

Now, I don't know whether this has yet reached the stage of moving forward but, again, I would invite the minister, if he does have any information, to help us understand the situation. As well as the size of the footprint of the building, there's, of course, the question of height. I want to put that in a context for the minister. The context, of course, is to remind him that this building is on land that is part of the historic Halifax Commons of the City of Halifax. It's also land that is immediately adjacent to Citadel Hill. Citadel Hill, of course, is the number-one most-visited national historic site in Canada.

I want to encourage the minister to think along with the planners for this building not to make it too tall. If the answer to the footprint is to go up rather than out, there has to be a bit of a limit on this. So I'm encouraging the minister to think carefully about height restrictions around Citadel Hill. This is something that I have to say, HRM Council, itself, has not handled, necessarily, with what I would regard as the most scrupulous or highest of standards over the years and, yet, at the same time, it's still something that is of concern and will continue to be something of concern.

Mr. Minister, before I move on to other topics, may I ask whether you have a similar understanding to mine of the current state of play, and whether there's anything you might help us out with in terms of our understanding of where things stand with the new high school?

MR. MUIR: I could say yes, no and maybe, but I'm not sure that's the answer the honourable member would be looking for. Certainly, the elements you talked about in terms of the situation with respect to the building, the date, and as the honourable member may or may not know, it actually would be possible, technically, to maybe get the students in that building in April or May 2007. To be quite frank, putting two schools together, and there has

[Page 165]

been discussion, and I think all parties agreed that the best thing to do, would be to start that school in September 2007, as opposed to trying to put two schools together in the middle of a year. All partners are onside with that. I believe the honourable member would agree with that, too.

In terms of the physical structure, talking about the gyms and the auditorium, your understanding, what you related, is my understanding. You talked about going onto Bengal Lancers' land, and I have never heard that. So if somebody is talking about that, it certainly didn't originate in the Department of Education. That I can tell you. To be quite frank, I don't think that would be a concern. I understand that the architects have finished the preliminary design, and the land there is perfectly adequate to house a school of that capacity.

You also mentioned height around Citadel Hill. It seems to me that I may have seen your name in the media, associating yourself with people who were down on the waterfront talking about that. Is that correct? Yes, okay. I don't think that is going to be a concern. To be quite frank, I think we are as well aware as the honourable member for Halifax Chebucto that there are certain people in this community who take that type of thing very seriously, and would probably offer an opinion.

MR. EPSTEIN: Well, I thank the minister for his information. It's a big help. I'm intrigued that although he says it might be technically feasible to occupy the projected new building as early as April 2007, that won't occur. I know, one of my neighbours, Mr. Chris Zimmer, has a daughter who's in Grade 11 and who will be in Grade 12 next year. This is at St. Pat's. He's looking forward to her being the last student to graduate from St. Pat's because of the initial of her last name. So I perhaps can assure him that I guess will happen in due course.

I'd like to move along to another topic and it has to do with the Hogg report. This, of course, is the issue of funding for the different school boards and the formulaic basis for it. I have to say that this is very problematic for parents in the HRM region. People are very concerned here about the quality of education available for their children. I know that when I've said this before, there has maybe been some suggestion on the other side of the floor that this was unusual. I don't think it's unusual. I think this is a concern in HRM, and it's a concern in school board districts all across the province. But of course the formula is a difficulty that's a strong difficulty for the school board in HRM, and the students here seem not to be receiving the per-student funding that seems to be justified.

I want to remind the minister that not only, of course, is this HRM, as a whole, the growth area for the province in terms of population, but that that should not be seen as excluding the peninsula. I know that the height, in terms of absolute numbers of population on the peninsula, was reached probably in the late 1960s and that there has been a decline ever since. But I have to tell you that when I talk with planners, and when I talk with developers, it's very clear that they are interested in seeing a repopulation of the urban core,

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and that certainly includes the peninsula. We can't turn around without finding ourselves dealing with new development proposals, primarily residential proposals, for somewhere on the peninsula, and I can only think that this is going to continue to be the case.

Given the new HRM draft regional plan, the bias is in favour of central densification. Now they've identified areas where they think there will be new residential growth, but that also includes the peninsula. I know from looking at the demographics of people in my constituency that the days of one or two older parents, empty nesters, are about to pass. They are passing. They are in the process of passing and families are moving back into those homes. So there's going to be an impact on the schooling, on the peninsula. It's not just intensification of residents living on the peninsula who are single persons or one or two people without children. There's a lot of that being built, but that's not the extent of it. All the houses that are residential houses in my constituency, which is virtually all residential, are going through a process in which families are moving into them again. This is going to happen, and those parents are very interested in the quality of the education that's available to their children.

Quality, in the end, means money, and they want to see small class sizes. They want to see libraries. They want to see guidance counsellors. They want to see arts and music programs. They want to see preschool programs. They want to see French immersion. They want to see ESL. They want to see their special-needs children taken care of. In the end, Mr. Minister, what they're looking for is results, and if results cost money, then they're prepared to see that money invested in the school system. Given that we were told that this is to be the education budget, given that we were told so loudly that this is to be the education budget, I know from talking to families in my area that they're worried. They look at the Hogg report and they wonder why it is that it was necessary to postpone implementation of that report to the extent that it would have meant a better result in terms of funding for the HRM school board area.

I can understand that there are problems for other school boards in wholesale implementation of that report. But at the same time, parents I've talked to have taken note of the fact that this government is running surpluses. They've taken note of the fact that apparently there was a surplus last year and the government is projecting a surplus again this coming fiscal year. They're saying, why is it that that money is not being invested in the school system? If this is an education budget, they're asking, why is it that your government is structuring things so that surpluses are being generated that will have to be used to pay down debt?

Now, in general, if you happened into a surplus, sure, pay down debt, but this is a time when we're all anticipating that $830 million is going to come that we're going to use to pay down debt and I'm not disagreeing with that choice. That's fine. But why add to that by having generated a surplus last year and generating a surplus this year? Parents are saying to me, why don't they just run a break-even budget and use that money to invest further in

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the education system? They want quality. They understand that their tax dollars will have to be used for it, but they're prepared to see that happen.

I have to say to you also, Mr. Minister, that it's not just in the school system that they're prepared to see money invested. I want to remind the minister that there is at least some good chance that the current federal budget as amended by the agreement between my Party and the Liberal Party, federally, will pass. If that passes, then what that means is that there will be a lot more money coming for education, specifically post-secondary education, to the Province of Nova Scotia. I would like the minister to also undertake today that if that money is made available to Nova Scotia, that he will put it into post-secondary education and put it into rolling back tuition fees.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Education with just over one minute before we reach the moment of interruption.

MR. MUIR: Before moving on to this topic, I'd like to go back to a response that I had given the honourable member about the land for the new high school. I've been informed just now by staff that the HRM, and the Department of Education are working with the Bengal Lancers to conceivably do a land swap which would allow the Bengal Lancers to move the Bell Road paddock across the street. So whatever you heard obviously there was something about it. Secondly, I can assure the honourable member it's not being pursued because the footprint of the school would go onto the Bengal Lancers property because the footprint would not.

Turning now to your comments about money for education. I want to just begin to say, Mr. Chairman, that what the honourable member would know from our comments is . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. We've reached the moment of interruption.

[6:00 p.m. The committee recessed.]

[6:30 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: At this time I would like to call the committee back to order. We will continue with the estimates for the Department of Education. Mr. Minister, your staff is coming in.

The honourable member for Halifax Fairview.

MR. GRAHAM STEELE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to continue, as long as the minister doesn't say that he can't answer until his staff arrive. I'm sure they're not far away.

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Mr. Chairman, this year's budget document contained the following paragraph, "As promised, we will soon pilot up to 20 free and full-day, activity-based preschool programs for four-year-olds in areas that meet the following criteria: where there is known demand, where there is a lack of readily available day-care spaces, and where existing schools have room to accommodate additional students."

Mr. Chairman, this pre-kindergarten program is a bit mysterious. We know very little about it. My first question for the minister is, is this program funded in the budget and, if so, where would we find it in the budget document?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, the preschool program is something that we've talked about for some time. Actually, we talked about it last year, and said that we would be setting it up. We have actually engaged a person, who is seconded from the Department of Community Services, to do the organization. He read the paragraph, and I just want to clarify it a little bit. (Interruptions) I apologize for that.

The issue of whether we're going to get 20 of those up and running this year - to be quite frank 20 is our intent. Will they all be running the first of September? The answer is likely no, because there's a fair bit of logistical arrangements that have to take place. For example, if you are providing these in a public school, then there's the issue of how the children get to school. If they aren't going to public school, if it's not part of the public school in Nova Scotia, then there are some other issues you have to work out.

Secondly, we have to be concerned that what we are doing is to go to places where the preschool program is most wanted and needed. In other words, there are some communities that are perfectly well served by existing preschool programs and, therefore, we would sooner put these pilot projects in areas where that opportunity for preschool education is not there. Having said that, we are allowing the school boards to propose sites to us. What we will do actually, is we'll be allocating these preschool programs, the number of pilots, to school boards, and they will make that determination.

The line item for that is $1.065 million, and it appears under Public Schools, Page 5.6. It would be English Program Services. If you look under that, you'll see community-based education, $728,000; pre-Primary programs, $750,000 and change.

MR. STEELE: Mr. Chairman, what I'm particularly interested in, of course, is where are those programs going to be located. Now, the minister has said that they're consulting with the school boards. Now, I understand, for example, that the Halifax Regional School Board has come back to the department with a list, or is on the verge of doing that. Now, I assume that's happening in the other school boards. What I'm looking for is as much information as the minister can provide about the geographic distribution of these 20 pilot projects around the province, and does the minister in fact know today where those 20 sites are and, if not, when will he know?

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MR. MUIR: We do know, Mr. Chairman, in which boards the sites will go. Where they will be located within the boards, we are not confirmed. The honourable member has said that Halifax has submitted potential sites, and I will have to look. I don't know what they are. I know there were four sites that had been allocated to Halifax.

MR. STEELE: The minister has indicated that the geographic distribution of the 20 sites is known. I wonder if the minister could list, by school board, where those 20 sites are going to be?

MR. MUIR: The information is not in my briefing book, Mr. Chairman. I'll have to table that for you tomorrow, if that is okay.

MR. STEELE: That's fine, Mr. Chairman. Of course that's all we can ask for if the minister doesn't have the answer, that he agrees to produce it. That's fine. If there are four sites allocated to the Halifax Regional School Board, does the department know where those are going to be and, if so, what are they?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member has indicated that Halifax has submitted some potential sites. I haven't seen those sites. So in terms of the decision being made about where they are, the answer is no.

MR. STEELE: To be precise, I just want to remind the minister I said they have either submitted a list or are on the verge of submitting a list. It may be that it's not in the department yet. What I would like to know is whether the department will accept the school board's list without modification, without politics, or will there be some further process within the department where the department decides whether they're going to accept the board's list or not?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, our intention was to accept the school board's suggestion. Now, when I say that, it is our intention and that's how we're going to proceed. For example, if they had four sites in one neighbourhood, then there might be some question about the selection criteria used.

MR. STEELE: Mr. Chairman, needless to say, there are many people who are very interested in knowing what the final decision is on these 20 pilot project sites for pre-kindergarten. When can we expect a public announcement about which 20 sites have been selected across the province? The question is, when will we know?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, once all the boards make their submissions, then we will put out a list of the sites that are selected.

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MR. STEELE: Mr. Chairman, the sum mentioned by the minister for this fiscal year is, I think he said, $1.056 million, which is a very substantial sum. Clearly the department expects to spend that money in this fiscal year or else they wouldn't have allocated it in the budget. Will these programs be up and running in September and, if not, how many does the department expect will be up and running in September of this fiscal year?

MR. MUIR: I don't think, to be quite frank, Mr. Chairman, there will be 20 up and running in September. We have said that consistently. That's not a change in our position. For example, as I said, it sounds like a very straightforward and easy thing to do, but you may find, we, indeed, may find that some boards may ask to delay. Actually, the advice that we received from school boards, a couple of times with school board officials, I've discussed the concept with them, they have advised us to make haste slowly. We are doing that to make sure that we do it correctly.

MR. STEELE: Mr. Chairman, of course that's the right way to go. I don't think for a second this is an easy thing to do. If it's going to be done at all, it needs to be done right. What I would encourage the department to do and the minister to do is share as much information as possible with the affected communities, because, to date, there has been, frankly, a great deal of interest and very little information.

Mr. Chairman, I'm going to share the rest of the time available with the member for Cape Breton Nova who would like to deal with another subject that's very dear to my heart, which is the school breakfast program. Before I do, I can't sit down without saying that the minister said that the sites will be selected based on where they're wanted and needed. Mr. Minister, they're wanted and needed in the constituency of Halifax Fairview. I have at least three elementary schools that have a population that could use this very much. I'll mention for the record Burton Ettinger, Fairview Heights and Chebucto Heights Elementary, the neighbourhoods around those schools very much want and need this opportunity. With that, I'll pass it over to the member for Cape Breton Nova.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to thank the member for Halifax Fairview for his comments and his lobbying attempt, it's always in order.

The honourable member for Cape Breton Nova. The time is 6:42 p.m., and the end in turn will be 7:09 p.m.

MR. GORDON GOSSE: Mr. Chairman, my question for the Minister of Education is in regard to the announcement the other day in the Education budget, $3.5 million for school-based initiatives. In that announcement was $750,000 to introduce a provincial-wide breakfast program, Breakfast for Learning Program. I would like to know the number of elementary schools within the Province of Nova Scotia, and how many breakfast programs that will mean in the Province of Nova Scotia.

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MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, there are 312 elementary schools in the province, and 312 elementary schools would be eligible for this breakfast program. (Interruptions) I just want to go back on that figure, I don't want to mislead the honourable member. If there are P to12 schools or P to 8 schools that are not classified as elementary or primary schools, then the P to 6 population would also be eligible.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before I recognize the honourable member for Cape Breton Nova, I would like to make a correction. Your time will be complete at 6:51 p.m. You have the floor.

MR. GOSSE: Mr. Chairman, I'm trying to figure out, the $750,000, how that money will be allocated. Will it go through the different school boards, or how will that money be earmarked, how much for each school board in the Province of Nova Scotia?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, as the honourable member knows, and certainly up in his area some schools have had an extremely fine breakfast program run by volunteers. They do have a person in that board who looks after it, whom I've met on a couple of occasions, and might add that she never ceases - every time I see her, she does raise that program. I might also add that the member for Cape Breton West did mention that from time to time, as well. He would know that.

The money will be given to school boards which will allocate it as they see fit to the P to 6 population. Is it going to entirely fund breakfast programs for every school student in the province? Probably not. Will it provide a good thing - you mentioned $750,000, but I want to remind the honourable member that we were able to reinvest some money, I think it was in March or February, and we gave $400,000 to school boards if they needed to buy a fridge or a stove or do a little physical upgrading to an existing breakfast program facility, then that money was available. The money will flow to the school boards, who will flow it out.

[6:45 p.m.]

MR. GOSSE: What I'm trying to find out is, is there a specific amount of money that will go to each school board? Is it designated that one school board will get $50,000 and another school board will get $75,000, based on the needs of elementary school kids? The minister did bring up a point there about breakfast programs in the schools. I'm quite familiar with the lady from the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board, because I actually met her a long time ago when she first took over. She's a nutritionist, and she has some great ideas. It's funny how time goes by. When I approached the school board 11 years ago, they wouldn't have anything to do with Breakfast for Learning Programs in the schools, the minister doesn't know that aspect of it. I've served over 36,000 breakfasts in 11 years.

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I'm just trying to figure it out cost-wise, because I do know what it costs in the Breakfast for Learning Program. What I'm trying to say is, this money that's earmarked for the school boards, and money that comes from the Canadian Living Foundation for Breakfast for Learning Programs, some of the money comes into the schools and other breakfast programs, like the one that I run at home, comes from the Canadian Living Foundation. So that money's already there. I must say some of the businesses in the Cape Breton region have been very good with donating money, and I keep a close eye on that. I frequent those businesses because of that reason. I know they do that.

I'm trying to figure out how the money is going to be allocated. If they have funding from the Canadian Living Foundation for Breakfast for Learning Programs, if they have x number of dollars from that program, and the school board has x number of dollars, who in the school board is going to be making that decision of where that funding is going?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, the money will be allocated according to the number of P to 6 students in each of the school boards. How they allocate it and work around great programs like the Breakfast for Learning Programs by the Canadian Living Foundation, that will be determined by the school boards.

MR. GOSSE: So, okay, it's actually going to be up to the school board to decide how that money is going to be spent. I'm just trying to figure it out. Do you have any idea how many children in the P to 6 school system received breakfast from the Breakfast for Learning Program last year? Would you have any idea how many children have been given breakfast in the school boards across Nova Scotia within the last year?

MR. MUIR: No, Mr. Chairman, we have never asked for or received that information, although it may be in the monthly meetings of school boards or something like that. We've not asked for that information.

MR. GOSSE: I think that would be interesting, Mr. Minister. I think this is a great initiative by the Province of Nova Scotia, and is long overdue, especially in certain areas where the unemployment is so high, and single parents and low-income families can benefit greatly from this. You can't train the brain unless you have the fuel for it. I just worry how this is going to be distributed by the school board. I'm wondering, a coordinator like we have in Cape Breton, will she have access to say that there's so much needed in this area, and so much needed in this area?

I'm just wondering about another thing. Also, there's a healthy eating strategy involved in that. Will the same people involved in the breakfast programs be involved in the healthy eating strategy for these elementary schools?

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MR. MUIR: I think there will probably be some overlap. The reason I say that, Mr. Chairman, is that, clearly, if we're talking healthy eating, then the breakfast menu would be part of that as well. The overall direction - my experience with most of the breakfast programs is that they are run by volunteers and staffed by volunteers. I know the one in the neighbourhood that I live in in the Town of Truro, my wife goes down there every Friday morning and serves breakfast at that one. We would not expect the volunteers to be the "healthy living people". They would take advice and, to be quite frank, I know that most of the volunteers are concerned about healthy living. There will probably be a fairly close connect, but the person who would be responsible for healthy living would, I expect, be paid staff, either through the school board or though the Department of Health Promotion or somebody.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to inform the member for Cape Breton Nova, you had approximately 10 seconds. (Interruptions) I'm sorry, we have to watch the clock very closely. I do thank you, sir, for your questions this afternoon. At this time I would like to recognize a member of the Liberal caucus, who has approximately nine minutes in turn. That will end the estimates for today.

The honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park.

MS. WHALEN: Are you sure we're not going to 7:09 p.m.?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm having some difficulty today with that time. I've taken over the Chair, but I always stand to be corrected. (Interruptions) Order, please. I've had some difficulty with the time this afternoon, I do agree, yes. But you do have the floor, member, please carry on.

MS. WHALEN: When I finished my questioning earlier, we were talking about the gymnasiums and auditoriums in schools. The minister finished up the time with a list of schools he's been to with openings and ribbon-cuttings, essentially, schools across the province where new gymnasiums and extra enhancements for the community were part of the school buildings. I think, really, what it does is reinforces the point I was trying to make, and that is that all communities see the schools as central, whether you're in the City of Halifax or in a small town, they see them as central facilities for the community, as well.

When I mentioned silo-thinking, it's that education and the provision of the school building shouldn't stand alone, and the money shouldn't all come from your department, but it is a government initiative or a government vision to improve communities and to improve culture, to improve physical fitness. Those are sort of overriding themes of government. I've heard this government speak of them as well, particularly the health and wellness initiative, which has come into play in the last couple of years with the establishment of the Office of Health Promotion.

[Page 174]

But if we don't provide funds to the communities, then we're leaving them behind the eight ball, as they try to get going on these initiatives. If we're taking out facilities, we should be ensuring that the new buildings have those enhancements in them. Again, I point to enhancements because, for example, Halifax West High School, we could go to that one which was only opened in 2002, I believe, maybe the beginning of 2003. When that school opened, it has a full-sized gymnasium for a high school, but with 1,600 students it has no extra time whatsoever for the community. It's fully booked, it's programmed all the time. That's great for the community.

In fact the school itself, I think, would like an extra gymnasium, and I think have made a request through the school board for that. I don't know if that has come through. You might answer that, if you've ever heard of the request for a second gymnasium at Halifax West High School, but that's for their own needs. Right now, certainly, there's no ability for the school to have their facilities available to the community.

I guess my challenge to the minister, more than a question, is to address the question of how your capital spending and program helps or could be the catalyst for other government initiatives, like the health and wellness, like culture in our communities, that, again, you could be the catalyst to provide those facilities with their help. So could you talk about that, about getting away from that individual department silo?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before I recognize the minister, it's getting quite loud here in the Chamber. We want to give the member an opportunity to ask the question and, equally, we would like to give the minister an opportunity to hear the question for an appropriate answer.

Mr. Minister, you have the floor.

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, just to continue on with that, clearly the provision of gymnasiums, large gymnasiums, ample gymnasiums is crucial. I don't doubt that. However, she quite correctly pointed out that many of these things are community-school partnerships. I think back, and I suppose the history of school construction - I'm not saying that it shouldn't be changed or it couldn't be changed - in the past number of years, and let's start back with all of the P3 schools, which was the previous one. To be quite frank, when they were building those things, they tinkered with classroom size and increased that, and did a variety of things and came up with nice facilities, but I don't see that any of those had an auditorium.

What I'm saying is that the auditoriums that were built at St. Pat's and QEH, historically, would have been built by the city, and that was a good thing. The city built the schools in those days. When the government got into the business of school construction, then it was probably faced with a dilemma: how do you serve the needs of the many in the most effective way? When we came into government, the direction of government to the Department of Education was to develop a footprint for schools, whether it's a junior high

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school or an elementary school or a high school, whatever it happens to be. Indeed, I can think of a couple of schools in the province that I have visited, where we actually used the footprint that had been developed under one of the public-private contractors, but obviously we had to go and get permission to do that type of thing.

So, as government, we're trying to provide quality facilities to meet the educational needs of the students. I think, Mr. Chairman, that the record of this government has been very good in that regard (Interruptions) I'm talking about meeting the needs for the education program. Now, I understand that it would be really nice to build a school that is going to take the needs of every community into consideration, or the wants of every community, but there is an issue of accountability and responsibility that government has when it comes to using precious - and I will say precious - education dollars in the most efficacious way.

That's exactly what we have done, and that's why we say to communities, we are perfectly happy and would like to work with you to provide a facility that exceeds the standard pattern, like they did in those schools I mentioned in Pictou County and the one in our area and the one in South Colchester, wherever it is, that they've opted and said, look, we're not happy with that size of gym, we want a bigger gym, or we don't like the size of the music room. Therefore, what we want to do is we want to change the cafeteria and the auditorium and turn it into a cafetorium, so you can do all of these things.

Those adjustments - we've made any adjustments that we can as long as it is sort of within the financial envelope that is allocated for this. The other thing I would suggest is that, as the honourable members know, there is a process through which these capital projects go, first at the local school, then the school board and then it goes to a provincial committee. I can tell you that if the decision is by somebody, including the government, to turn these into - turn them, that's a negative thing, I don't mean it negatively - to build them to a standard that would meet every community need, I'm going to tell you, there are going to be a lot fewer new schools in this province.

MS. WHALEN: Certainly, Mr. Chairman, I do hear the minister saying scarce resources mean that we have to identify our basic needs and just go with that when we're building schools. I think it bears repeating that the communities across this province all have that same need, and the need to foster the arts and culture within the school is helped immeasurably by having a stage and having a performance area. Again, the P3 schools do have that, I believe most of them were built - at least the ones here in Halifax - with this cafetorium idea, the cafeteria combined with a stage that can be used, and on the other side it's used with the music room. So they had recognized the need for some kind of performance area.

I think it is important. I see it in every school, in every community, struggling to raise the money to provide those embellishments to the school. Really, the fact that it's occurring in every community, and that many of them - I'd say most of them - have been able to

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somehow raise the money within their own communities, is great for the school board and the Department of Education, you've saved money, but it puts a huge onus on communities. It's very difficult to ask councils, municipal levels of government and individuals to provide those facilities.

[7:00 p.m.]

What I'm urging the minister to do is to talk with other members, other departments, other members of your Cabinet, and find creative ways where you work together on common goals. (Interruptions) That's what I'm saying, that it shouldn't all come out of the Department of Education budget, but there should be monies allocated for this health and wellness and for those kinds of facilities.

I'm going to move a little bit further, we don't have a lot of time. So talking about the building of new schools, I wanted to raise an issue that I think deserves some attention. I don't know if the minister is going to be able to provide me with any figures on this. I have been told that when your new schools are constructed, there's a 10 per cent holdback to cover deficiencies in your buildings. This is to say anything that goes wrong in the first year, you can turn to the contractors and say, well, this didn't work or that didn't work, and you've got a 10 per cent holdback that you can, hopefully, use as a lever to make sure that this work gets done.

Well, I'm told that often the companies walk from the 10 per cent holdback, and that the Department of Education or TPW, whoever builds the school, doesn't get back in time, doesn't force the issue and doesn't make the changes that are necessary. I'm wondering if the minister could speak from experience, with the many schools that you've dealt with now over your tenure as Minister of Education, and say if you are aware of a difficulty that comes because of that. Is this a trend, or did it happen once? Can you give me some idea of what's going on on that holdback?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, this is going to sound like Question Period, but the Department of Transportation and Public Works actually is the organization that looks after building schools. You may wish to address that question to the Minister of Transportation and Public Works. (Interruptions) The question, Mr. Minister, was that there is a 10 per cent holdback, the honourable member says she has heard of a situation where the contractor walked rather than honouring the commitments. It would be that department, they do manage the school construction.

MS. WHALEN: Nevertheless, I will take that up when we get an opportunity to speak to Transportation and Public Works, if I can get it in among the many road questions. (Interruptions) At the same time, if the deficiencies are not addressed, then it is the schools and the teachers and the learning that might be compromised. So that should be something that your department would be aware of, through your maintenance and your director who

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takes care of school buildings. I think that is something that needs to be on your radar screen, and be aware of it. I will ask the question when I get an opportunity. Last year's budget for the maintenance of schools was cut. Can you tell me how we've done this year on the maintenance budget for schools?

MR. MUIR: There's a rather complex explanation to that. Although it seemed like the absolute number was reduced, there was a shift in line items. If you add it all up, it's going to come out the same. It went from one category to another. I wanted to remind the honourable member, as well, when we were able to do some reinvesting at the end of the last fiscal year, we put an additional $2 million back into the budget last year, which obviously will not be reflected on paper until that budget year is closed off.

The increase this year, we put back in the base budget this year the $1 million which you say was not there last year. But don't forget, we added it up by the $2 million at the end of the year. Hopefully we would be in a position, Mr. Chairman, to perhaps do that this year.

MS. WHALEN: If I could then, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to just clarify that. What you're saying really is that this year's budget brings you back to the level it would have been last year. So last year's was cut, but $2 million went in in December. You were below what you'd been the last year, until you put the $2 million in in December. This year's $1 million brings you back to that base level.

MR. MUIR: That is correct, Mr. Chairman.

MS. WHALEN: I'd just like to point out that does kind of contradict what you said, that it was in different line items and that it was the same last year. (Interruptions) Okay, well, I am struggling to get the full gist of what it is there. On the construction of schools, can you tell me - I know there are only a few minutes left - are you working closely on the building of - what is the good word? - safe schools, in terms of air quality and the timing of the installation of different things, for example, when do they finish the flooring in the gymnasium, the off-gassing of the various components of the schools, that sort of thing? I know in the Halifax West school, when it was built, there was a lot of emphasis on that. I think they created a document which could be used as a model for future school building.

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to try to answer two questions. First of all, we're very conscious of that and I appreciate the honourable member drawing that to the attention of the House. Secondly, there is a person who has been pretty well known dealing with the issues of air quality. The person's name is Karen Robinson. I see the honourable member nodding her head. She knows her, and she's one of our advisers. She sits on the committee. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are reminded of that by somebody who has had a lot of experience in it.

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Secondly, Mr. Chairman, with your permission, just to go back to the last question, there were really two types of maintenance. There is the regular renovations and repairs, but then there are larger projects which fall under Tangible Capital Assets maintenance repairs, and that's where I was saying it's not quite a straightforward answer, because once the work is done under the TCA maintenance, it doesn't have to be repeated.

MS. WHALEN: I just wanted to rise for a second. I was pleased that the minister is aware of Karen Robinson. Her group is a non-profit group called Citizens for a Safe Learning Environment. I'm aware of that group, because they've been active in my community and really across the province. I'm glad that you are recognizing the value of the information they bring to the table. I think they have done a lot to improve the health of our schools, right from simple things like the cleaning products that are used in schools up to some of the more complex issues of construction and materials that are selected to go into those schools. I think that it's wonderful that you have begun to use that expertise that both Karen and others bring to the table. I'll just close off with that, no question for you, for my last comment.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The time for the estimates has elapsed.

The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, I move that your committee do now rise and report considerable progress.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is on the floor for the committee to rise.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

[7:09 p.m. The committee rose.]