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HALIFAX, THURSDAY, MAY 6, 2004

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY

2:48 P.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. James DeWolfe

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Deputy House Leader.

MR. WILLIAM DOOKS: Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to call the Estimates of the Department of Education.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Estimates of the Department of Education.

The time is 2:48 p.m., the honourable member for Halifax Needham, you have two minutes remaining.

MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Thank you, very much, Mr. Chairman. I have a very short period of time in which to explore a topic that is of great concern, certainly to me and to members of my constituency, and perhaps I'll get back to the minister before the day is out.

I want to start by telling the minister that my concern is around school suspensions. I want to ask the minister if the Department of Education monitors suspension data from the boards and if it reviews suspension policy from the boards. The reason for this is that increasingly in the constituency I represent, and I know in other constituencies, there's concern that young people are being suspended from school to the streets where they fall further and further behind in their ability to participate in the curriculum when they go back to school. The issues that have contributed to their suspension are often not dealt with and eventually those young people leave school and their education is lost.

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My first question: Does the department monitor the suspension policies of the board, and the practices, and look at the data and look at ways to intervene or improve the situation?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Education, and there's about five seconds left in NDP time.

HON. JAMES MUIR: Mr. Chairman, the board does not formally monitor the suspensions. I can tell you though that regional educators, REOs, they attend board meetings and they would receive any reports that the board receives. Now I can tell you that in my home constituency, a board member with whom I talk to perhaps on more occasions than some of the others had a particular concern about that and he did bring in data to me and I did review that.

As you know, the department implemented a school code of conduct for schools and the in-service scene is going on that but, do we formally monitor or require formal reporting of that to us? No, we do not.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. The time has expired.

The honourable member for Victoria-The Lakes.

MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Mr. Chairman, I will be sharing my time with my honourable colleague for Kings West, and also with the member for Cumberland South.

Mr. Chairman, the minister will find some of what I'm saying repetitive, but I find that the topic is of great importance and bears repetition on some of the points, and I would also like to expand and add some new points.

The last time I spoke to the honourable minister, I mentioned the combination of the new school that's proposed for the Northside, combining four schools into one. The new school is very welcome, Mr. Minister, in that area. Some of those schools are very outdated, long past their shelf life. I've inquired and some of them do not have gymnasiums - they're that old that they don't have a gymnasium. My concern at that time was combining four gymnasiums into one, and also the fact that you're taking junior high school students and combining them with elementary students, and I pointed out that sometimes by the time they reach junior high there are some very negative things that happen with the youth in today's society, and I was fearful of the fact that the elementary children would be exposed to that.

I look at the large schools, I don't know if there have been any studies done, Mr. Minister, or any follow-up to these new schools, but one of my fears is the fact that over and above losing community identity I've stated the economic impact of communities, because of the activity to and from the schools, not only from the students and the parents, but teachers, staff, administration, and general activities throughout the communities that people

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travel to and from schools for, and also the fact that schools are and have become the focal point of towns now - not only are they an education centre, but they're an activity centre. The honourable minister of recreation points to the fact that the government is concentrating on active living and with that the addition of new gymnasiums is very welcome, but at the same time there will be one large gymnasium rather than even two, one in Sydney Mines and one in North Sydney.

When I start to talk about the size of the school and were there any studies done or any follow-up, I'm wondering, are we getting to a point where we are creating education factories as compared to educational schools? A school to me, Mr. Minister, has not an overly large population of students, it creates for a better teacher-student ratio. You seem to have that personal feeling when you're involved in a school or a school complex but when it becomes too large, almost like the large university institutions, you almost become - this is my terminology, nobody else's - when I talk about an educational factory, where the kids come in one end and they go out the other and it becomes impersonal, not intentionally, not that the teachers don't care as much or that the administration is not as concerned, but the sheer size and numbers and the complexities that a large school would create, and we're talking 850 students with numerous junior high classrooms and numerous elementary classrooms and that's what I fear would be lost here.

I don't have any statistics to show that the large school is negative or positive. That's why I was wondering - maybe I could ask the honourable minister - to your knowledge has there been any follow-up done on these large schools to show a positive or negative effect?

MR. MUIR: I'll thank the honourable member for that question. It is an interesting one, and we, who have a background in education, know that there's really no concise answer. First of all you have to define what a small school was. A few years ago, 750 students was a small school. There was a move at one time toward larger schools. What you're talking about is your neighborhood schools.

I just want to talk about large schools. One of these schools of this province that I'm particularly proud of is the one that's in my community, the high school there which is the Cobequid Educational Centre, which I suppose there would be those who would disagree with me, but I figured it was the finest high school in the province. I am a bit biased, nevertheless, but it does have 1,700 students, and that's my point. On the other hand, the honourable member, when you look at rankings there was some information that came out a few years ago that said that - and I forget who did the ranking - the school at Advocate Harbour, which was a Primary to Grade 12 school (Interruption) somebody said it was AIMS, and they rated that as the top school in the province.

Last night I had the great pleasure of visiting Lunenburg Academy, which is a Primary to Grade 5 or Grade 6, and they had the work of the students on display there and clearly one of things that makes that Lunenburg Academy - and I guess both schools because they are

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interrelated there - such a good thing is because the community believes in those schools and participates in them and teachers care about the students and they do everything they can for them. If you have good folks working in school I don't think size is as important as you think it is.

I can remember some number of years ago, I guess probably about 1997 or 1996, attending a meeting on behalf of the then Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party over in the constituency of the member for Pictou West. As you know, one of the proud things that happened in Pictou County this year was the opening of two high schools. I went to a community meeting in Scotsburn one night at the fire hall there - and I was not a member then, but I think I must have been a candidate because I was a candidate for a long time - attending that meeting and the people were concerned about a really large school. The school at Alma has 1,100 students, and the community was talking about it being a very large school. When West Pictou High was going full bore, which is the school it was replacing, it had more students than that, yet it was not considered a large school.

I want to tell you that if up in your area if you go to the member for New Waterford, he represents New Waterford, Cape Breton East, West, North, whatever, Cape Breton Centre, that BEC one time had 2,000 students. I don't know, I don't think I ever heard it referred to as a large school, but I often heard it was a real good school and now BEC has roughly about half the population, of course, which is one of the factors up there. So the evidence on small schools, big schools, is not real conclusive. I think there are studies that would say that large schools are more efficient, a greater variety of courses, and for students more support, more resources when you have a critical mass. You also have the situation where small schools, the intimacy, the parents walking into the schools every day - particularly at the elementary level - with their children make for a very good product.

[3:00 p.m.]

One of the first - I won't say delights I had, I would say that it was pretty rough, when I began my career with the Department of Education, there was then an elementary school in Collingwood. Some of you may remember that and that was one of those schools where you could sort of eat off the floor and the whole thing but, you know, there were a whole bunch of schools if you know the geography of that county - well it's like your area, I guess it would be like the area for your colleagues and, anyway, they took a teacher out of that school. The school board made that decision and it was very, very difficult on that community, because one of the things at that school, and somebody asked me a question in here about core French the other day - I think it may have been the member for Halifax Atlantic, or for Halifax Chebucto, or maybe from Halifax Needham - you know that was a primary school, that Collingwood school, that began French in Primary because they had somebody to do it.

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So, you know, sometimes small is good and sometimes larger is good, but, today you want more support services, you want - I'm going to say bells and whistles for students. For example, when I was down in Lunenburg last night, we had the privilege of having the junior high band entertain us. If there wasn't a certain critical mass, then you're not going to have the band program and if you want to be able to organize certain activities in your school, you do need a critical mass to do that. So I would say that the research is mixed. If you get up to the high school level where I guess it really depends on the teachers, if the teachers and the community are involved in the school and like the school and participate in the school, and the teachers do more than simply come in and do their 9:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m., or 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m., whatever it is, and our contributors work with students after hours and do those things, in most of the good schools in the province that's what marks them, the school community, not the size of the school.

MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Mr. Minister, another point that I would like to concentrate on - and I don't know if the minister would be involved in this or not - the community consultation that has gone on, or hopefully will go on when the site selection of the school comes forward. I understand that there is a committee in place already that is searching out different sites. I understand that they have possibly as high as a dozen sites to choose from and they have to narrow that down to a number of probably three or four, or whatever, and then make a final selection. So that's ongoing now and I believe that the community should be involved and I would imagine that would be a part of the local school board and not for the department itself - or would the department get involved in the final selection? Where would your department become involved - when it's narrowed down to three or when it's narrowed to three and then one is suggested?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, before I answer that question, there was a comment that I was going to make in reference to your last question about the combination of schools up in your area and having to do with the gyms. You know that those schools I think will be going back to the community and if the community wishes to use them for community purposes, that would be a decision for the municipality. Now there may be one of those schools that belongs to the church, I don't know, but in general they will be reverting back to the municipality and if they so choose to keep those facilities open for community recreation, that would be their decision.

Now, you talked about school site selection. The department is involved in two ways. First of all, the department sets the criteria for school sites. In other words, they have to be so big, you know, the typical things, the standards that you would have for a building lot regardless of if it was a school, or a commercial building, or a home or something. I think if you're, for example, in Pictou County, I think you need an acre lot, or in Colchester County you've got to put a septic system in - all of these things. So those standards are established by the Department of Education.

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There is then a local group called a school steering team and they actually get into the site selection business. That is not a group of the Department of Education, that's a group of the school board, or representatives, or somewhere along the line the school board gets one of these things together. It usually involves representatives from the community, representatives from the school, and also board representatives. They go out and they do this site selection search. They are required - now I say this marginally because we had a report from one of these that did not adhere to that this year - they are to recommend three sites. It comes into the minister, the department staff then does a departmental assessment of those sites and the minister would select one.

MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Mr. Minister, I would like to now concentrate on, I don't know if it's curriculum or just the school, French immersion is what I'm pointing to, and French immersion is something that I think is critical, that it should be taught in the schools and what I would like to see is French immersion, a program or a policy, or a process, put in place. I know everything that you do is an additional expense, but French immersion should be, as a minimum, offered at least in all the junior high schools. After such time it could be slowly phased downward so that it could eventually, hopefully, get into the elementary because you know, yourself, the younger they are - they seem to be like little sponges. It's a lot easier to teach them at an early age to speak French and simply because it's something that will last any graduate the rest of their lives.

I've travelled reasonably extensively around and everywhere I have been fortunate enough to travel, those persons in the group who were bilingual always seemed to be having a leg up on any one of us single-language persons. If we were in Portugal, or Spain, or Mexico, Portugese, Spanish and Mexican, is so close to French, the French-speaking group could always find out what was going on and were a leg up, like I said, on everyone else. The French Immersion Program, like I said the other day, you should know where you want to be in five years and definitely where you intend to be in 10 years.

To address the cost of that, I point to write-offs in, well, let's just say government departments. Most businesses, all businesses, sooner or later have write-offs. We hear of people getting bonuses and things for superior performances and whatnot, which is fine, and people are rewarded, but when you have such large write-offs in some departments, that's money that's gone forever, if there was some way that that could be curtailed.

I see that there's over $2 million owing in student loans. The money is easy when it's gotten, but it's extremely hard to pay back. It seems to me that that has been an ongoing problem for quite some time to get it up to that amount of debt. I don't know if what I'm going to suggest is going to resonate good or bad with students, but when you are given a loan, a loan is a loan and you have to pay it back. There should be some mechanism put in place, that they agree to at the time of borrowing, to guarantee that it will be paid back. You could list your social insurance number, you could sign a document or something that you're willing to pay back a certain percentage after you graduate - not the first month after you

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graduate and then you've got this massive payment coming due, but after they graduate and they begin to earn an income, they should have to have a certain amount of net income which would allow them to live reasonably, and then, once they hit that level, maybe 5 per cent or something could come off their pay automatically, the same as we pay income tax, we pay health care, it could automatically come off.

What I'm searching for is some way that when the money goes out, there's a guaranteed way for it to come back in again, so that way that's not money that's out there laying dormant, it's money that could be put into the education system. It was given for college students. It could be put back into the college system.

The write-offs from the province, from those departments, could be put into the French Immersion Program. French immersion, as far as I'm concerned, travels right along with music. Those benefits sometime get trimmed off first - when the financial crunch comes, we'll trim French immersion or we'll cut out the music program, we'll forget about the band, what's the band anyway? When a kid learns an instrument, as I told my own family when they travelled off to college, never mind where you go, whether you know anybody there in the university you're travelling to or not, take your instrument with you. Look up the local players, take your instrument, you have an instant group of maybe not friends, but good people you can make a relationship with, you have something in common. So if you take your saxophone or whatever you play and you travel to Europe or you travel to Ontario, it's an in for you.

What I'm wondering is, if there's some kind of a futuristic plan for French immersion in these schools that we're building to lower it down from junior high - and I say junior high because I have a grandson who skipped going to the school that he normally would have gone to and travelled in to Sydney Mines because of the French Immersion Program, as the French Immersion Program wasn't offered in the school that was closest to him. I suppose there's additional busing expenses there for the school board where students are bypassing this junior high and going on to a further one, but it's the reality that if you want the extras you have to try and achieve them. Do you have some kind of a vision of creating a program to keep working down through the grades making them lower for French immersion and increasing the funding for the school bands, Mr. Minister?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member raises three or four very interesting items. Let me talk first for a few minutes about student loans. I believe I tabled some information the other day which was a $2 million and some dollars write-off in student loans, and somebody asked me if this the first time this had happened. Well it was the first time it was reported, because the way student loans used work in the province, when the system was first set up, the government had worked out a deal with the Royal Bank of Canada and I think one year there may have been other banks as well, because I know I've dealt with the Bank of Commerce, as a constituent person, where the banks literally took most of the risk and the province had a 10 per cent guarantee.

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So, if you were a student and you had a $20,000 loan which you chose to default on, the bill to province was $2,000. The banks I guess really didn't like that arrangement after they were into it - anyway they were going to indeed withdraw and effectively the province became the guarantor of the student loans. Our default rate right now - we're fairly early into it and we're going to need two or three more years before we can make a real decision - it's around 10 per cent. Now we wish it was zero per cent or that the collection rate was 100 per cent, but I'm led to believe by staff that it's probably comparable to other jurisdictions in Canada - I'm sorry we are at 20, I thought we were going to move to 20, and I started off with 10 because it's going to get up each year because we are only recently into this and of course the loans are just starting to come through.

[3:15 p.m.]

That is a lot. Student loan is a debt to the Crown, so you can't dismiss it. You can't say well, I'm bankrupt and I'm not going to pay my student loan because it becomes a debt you owe. It's a debt to the Crown and I guess you have it until you pay it off. I want to tell you that I know from many people that they get student loans, they end up with substantial debts and it is very difficult to pay off those loans. I want to tell you that once you leave school you basically have a six-month holiday, or at least an interest holiday, which is picked up by the province. You don't have to start paying it the day you get out of school. Unfortunately some people could start to pay the day they get out of school but they choose to delay it for six months, and the province picks that up. I can tell you as well, from personal experience with a family member of mine who had a student loan and actually had a job, but anyway he was hurt and couldn't do it for awhile so the student loan people, I'm told, they were fairly considerate that way.

So the student loan, I can tell you that people sometimes and probably without a great deal of knowledge base, they get mad at the student loan division because they are doing this and doing that, but I do know from working in the department, in the period of time that I've been there, that they look at every case individually and if there are extenuating circumstances they don't try to hound you to death and if you can't pay, you just can't get a job, you have up to three years of interest relief.

In addition, last year, this government introduced a student reduction program. It was another way that government chose to invest in universities, community colleges, some private trade colleges, and the students to try and build a stronger Nova Scotia. If a person has full advantage of that debt reduction program, which includes by the way making regular payments and doing things like that, then it's possible to get up to about 40 per cent of your loan, a debt reduction program of about 40 per cent. This new debt relief program has just been implemented. I think when I look at it objectively, I think my predecessors in the portfolio and of course the senior staff that worked that out, they did a good thing. It's not perfect and we hear a lot of people stand up on the floor of this Legislature and ask why higher education is not free. The implication is that if a student leaves the university or a trade

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school or a private career college, or whatever it is, with a debt it's the government's fault. We all know that you can't keep giving something away for nothing, everybody understands that.

The government really, in its commitment to education, has looked at those things and this debt reduction program, I think, is really going to help. In the Student Assistance Office in Nova Scotia we processed, this past year, about 10,000 student loan applications. You remember in the federal budget the federal government announced such things as parental contributions and some modifications in their criteria. We use their criteria, and I want to tell you those modifications were probably due to the actions of my predecessor. Nova Scotia was the one who raised that at the Council of Ministers and drew it to the attention of the federal government, so they stand to be congratulated for that. I really think that we had support of other jurisdictions, but when the federal government responded to that, then probably the people who were in our Department of Education deserve credit for it. I was not there then - but I'll take the credit if you want to give it to me, but I really wasn't there then.

The other thing that the federal government has done, which is in some ways a mixed blessing, and I'm talking about the cost of higher education, is that in their budget changes they have improved access. They make it easier for people to get into higher education. The student loans, they've changed those criteria, therefore it's easier to get a loan. You can get more money and this type of thing, but what was not done was that they didn't provide additional operating money for the institution. There was no more money, "for higher education."

So what's going to happen - the reason they made access easier and increased the loans is because when you put it in one end, you take it out the other. Well, if you put it in the lower end, it's we folks who get to pick up about 50 per cent of it, or something like that, in the first year. It wasn't a download, but I really think if it, in its budget deliberations, had been able to provide more money for higher education, you know, sort of a balance between the improvements in the student loan program, which obviously had a price tag with them - as government doesn't do anything virtually that doesn't have a price tag - maybe some of that price tag might have been used for operating and you could balance it off that way.

The honourable member also spoke of the French Immersion Program. That has been on the floor here in Halifax. Halifax was the jurisdiction that got in it first and continues in it. Whether we should have a French Immersion Program in every junior high - I don't think so. We're talking about critical mass again, and the other thing that you have to weigh is that if you put some of these programs where you have a very limited number of students, what does it do to the other programs for the bulk of the students?

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If you put in a French Immersion Program, then it means that if you have a critical mass of students then you can provide that program a lot more easily than if you don't have the critical mass. The other thing you have to remember about the French Immersion Program is that - we started in Truro and they put it on a quota system, but students drop out every year. I don't know exactly what the drop-out statistic is, but here in Halifax the numbers who entered Primary and the numbers who finished up at the upper end, it's going like that because the numbers aren't there so you really have to think about that. So, we're talking about critical mass.

The question of early immersion, late immersion, high school immersion remains unanswered. One of the things that most schools - or, more and more schools - have is this thing called the extended core French. It goes in usually at the junior high school and continues on through high school where students who have some facility in the French languages - not in an immersion program, but they have social studies and one or two other courses that are offered in the French language - I was going to say they're offering English in the French language and then I decided that probably wasn't such a good statement.

Would I like to see every student in Canada be able to speak both languages? Personally, yes. I can read a fair bit of French, but my oral and listening skills are substandard - well maybe they aren't substandard because a lot of people can't do it either - but they aren't really very good, despite the fact that when I look at my academic background I have a university minor in French. In the days when you did not have to speak French, you could do that.

AN HON. MEMBER: Parlez-vous français?

MR. MUIR: Oui, M. le Président.

Anyway, French immersion is good, however, the distribution of those resources - and there are support monies from the Department of Education where people wish to implement that and it is primarily a protocol between our province and the federal government which allows that money to flow.

MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Maybe I used the wrong terminology with French immersion, maybe the option could be there in elementary and junior for a French program over a period of time - maybe not the full French immersion. That's a thought that the minister maybe could have.

With that, Mr. Chairman, I would like to turn the remainder of my time over to my honourable colleague here.

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MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I recognize the member for Kings West.

MR. LEO GLAVINE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess we're all in a fairly congenial mood here on this very nice Nova Scotia day. I want to commend the minister for apologizing to teachers across Nova Scotia, in particular to the Grade 12 teachers who have been in the spotlight as a result of the provincial exam. I do pass that on to the minister today.

Speaking of teachers, I want to start off today with teacher education. We know that at the current time they're seemingly, at least a bit off the record, we may come up short in some of the areas like math and sciences in terms of teacher education, teacher preparation, from what I'm hearing from the schools of education. I'm wondering if the minister could comment on that and perhaps what direction his department may be giving the schools to improve the situation.

MR. MUIR: The honourable member brings to the floor once again a problem that we've had in the schools of Nova Scotia for quite some time, and that's to get sufficient numbers of people who have a strong background in mathematics or physics or chemistry, or other more specialized subjects, to enter teacher education. All I can tell you is that in my experience in teacher education, which was a few institutions, we would literally go out and - if we found math students and physics students and chemistry students - approach them to see if they would be interested in a career in education.

The honourable member knows from the business that we've always had that problem. It's not getting any easier. Every board knows where the shortages are and it goes out and recruits - and one of the things the province has done in the last couple of years is these early hiring fairs. They have them at every university, every teacher training institution in Nova Scotia. The intent of that is, and the union of course had to be a supporter of this, if there were math and physics and French, you pick some of these other subjects. If you come out of university you're looking for a job, and in some ways the first person to come along and offer you a job, if you're young and unencumbered, then you might go to the first offer. We find in Nova Scotia a lot of people have come back home. They go someplace else, but they find that they miss Nova Scotia and we get a number of teachers who have gone to other jurisdictions and then want to come back and live in Nova Scotia. The job fairs last year were a success. I think over 400 applications, and from those applicants the school boards in the early hiring process took about 100 people.

These job fairs help the school boards to hire teachers in the demand areas such as French, math and science before they are recruited by boards outside of Nova Scotia, or even outside of Canada. The teacher training institutions, I expect, are doing the same thing that we did, they go to university campuses and encourage students who are good academic students and particularly in those areas where there is a shortage of qualified teachers in the public schools - a skill shortage, I guess you would call it - to encourage those people, to talk to them about education, to try to encourage them to apply for it. Hopefully, they will apply,

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be accepted, like it, have a successful program and flow through to our schools. It's a tough situation, and it's even tougher right now these days for substitutes in some boards. They tell me that substitutes in some school subjects, in some areas the problems are very, very difficult - really very, very difficult to find but I know the boards work very hard at that and school administrators work very hard at building up a bank of names they can call should they need substitutes.

[3:30 p.m.]

One other factor in this is as the honourable member well knows, people are basically still hired as teachers - a teacher is a teacher. This is one of the areas where a larger school has an advantage. When you get up to high school and a person has a mathematics background, then they probably want to teach mathematics; if they've a physics background, they can do the physics; if they have the chemistry background, they want to do the chemistry; and the French, they want to do the French.

Again, critical mass of fellows in a department, but in the smaller schools you might end up teaching other subjects that you aren't quite as familiar with. Sometimes teaching assignments - we've all been through it - you've a teaching assignment and then there's an add-on because somebody has to do it. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't work as well. I guess in a larger school it usually works well because you have a greater pool to draw from.

MR. GLAVINE: I guess perhaps I got some information there. I firmly believe the time has come that there are now targeted needs in the province; perhaps some school boards with even greater needs. I'm wondering if the Department of Education and government are concerned to the point that, as we have this exit of 35 to 40 per cent of our teachers over the next five to eight years, in fact are we going to have to look at recruitment for our schools of education of a percentage for those disciplines that do require strong undergraduate preparation as well as their teaching certificate?

MR. MUIR: The honourable member is right. To my knowledge the schools of education are doing that now and have done it for some time. I know the last one at which I worked was St. Francis Xavier University and we did everything we could there to try and attract - as you talked about, the subject areas - teachers who had expertise and strong subject matter background. Some of those courses in high school are what you used to get in two or three years of university, and you really need a strong academic background to be able to cope with them.

MR. GLAVINE: There is a natural tie-in then to teacher preparation. I recently spoke with a teacher who has instructed at Acadia University and has been a mentor/teacher of elementary math in the province. He pointed out what I believe, in part, the math dilemma that we are currently facing and continues to come back to us through low provincial and

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national scores. He was talking about the reality that, in at least two of our three B.Ed. programs, all teachers are required to go into the classroom to teach math is a one-half credit in math methods; in other words a one-half education credit. I would certainly challenge the minister that perhaps that is an area that we do need some attention drawn to, and I would like his comments in that regard.

MR. MUIR: I would have to go back and review the requirements, but I think he may be right in terms of the methods course, but - I'm going from memory - I thought they needed one or two university math courses to get into the program. I think there is a prescription. I know there were some students who then had to take math during the summer or something like that to make up deficiencies. I'd have to check that for you.

MR. GLAVINE: Once again, in terms of preparation, I know that a teachable now can, I think, be as few as two university courses, perhaps three. I'm wondering if that, indeed, is sufficient when we start to take a look at our high school courses. We know that, in addition to good methods and good teaching ability, we also need a strong foundation. I'm wondering once again, especially in terms of our math programs, are the majority of our teachers well prepared for that challenge?

MR. MUIR: We do have some statistics on the most recent study with which we are familiar, it was done in New Brunswick. Clearly, the member is saying that, as I said, with some of the academic courses, the more advanced courses in high school, you need a pretty strong background - you really have to understand it, I guess, to do it well. There's probably room for some improvement in the province.

MR. GLAVINE: Mr. Minister, I'll move on to a document that was produced in the province this year by the Nova Scotia School Board Association, the Lead & Achieve document. Again, it was another opportunity, a window, to look into our schools and classrooms across the province. I believe, if my memory serves me correctly, 30 communities were visited by that initiative. I'm wondering, what is the department taking from that particular document that they consider to be priorities that will dovetail with the Department of Education? What kind of prominence is that document being given, or is it simply one that is not as relevant? I would like to hear the minister's comments, please.

MR. MUIR: That was an interesting study done by the School Boards Association, their action plan, they entitle it Lead &Achieve. They went around the province and had a number of focus groups and I guess from the department's perspective what they found in their focus groups and what was written in the report was a pretty strong endorsement of the direction that the department was going.

For example, they supported the renewed focus, the renewed emphasis on educational accountability for the delivery of educational programs in the province. In other words, they were supporting the provincial testing program, I assume that's what it was. They also talked

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about the need for smaller class sizes, particularly in the elementary grades. As members know, the Learning for Life plan of the government does address that. They were capped last year in Primary, this year in Grade 1, and next year in Grade 2 and so on.

I guess in general what the School Boards Association determined in their consultations was very similar to what the department determined in its consultations with the public when they were preparing the Learning for Life document. They wanted smaller class sizes, they also wanted a new standard report card for all students. I think the difficulties with report cards is that parents want to know what it means when they get a report card; they want to be able to understand the standard for that. They asked for job fairs for teachers. They wanted to strengthen school advisory councils and, of course, that has been done. The other thing which they were concerned about was students who were - we talked about in the House the other day - perhaps in other years would have gone to a vocational school program. Good students, able to do things, learn things, just really weren't interested as much in the academic high school as they were in getting more direct preparation for the school leaving years.

MR. GLAVINE: Another area that I've had a few calls on since becoming a member of the Legislature is with regard to special students between the ages of 18 and 21. We all know that the Education Act does spell out that a student's education is the responsibility of the province up to the age of 21. I know that there certainly seems to be a gap now, if a student does finish school at 18, and certainly through those next three years, in other words, in the educational domain, there may be other community opportunities and so on for them, but I'm wondering if the department again is looking at some way of meeting that need.

I point out in particular, students who have had perhaps a technology that they've been able to use to assist their education, and once they leave school that is then taken from them - in fact in the two cases that I reference here, and one may still come to the Legislature, she is still hounding to get something done - and appropriately too I must say - I'm just wondering, because in her case she sees her daughter now slipping back from what the public school gave her for 12 years and I'm just wondering, is there something that is being looked at by the department to fill that gap?

MR. MUIR: I have to see the specifics of the young person to whom the honourable member refers. The province has invested a fair bit in an adult high school in recent years, and of course there are literacy groups right around the province which are supported by the federal government and also have some support from the provincial government. If a person wishes to go on to post-secondary education and is accepted in it, then there is a fair bit of help available to students, and I'll talk about the learning centre at Saint Mary's, which is perhaps the best-known facility in the province at universities, and the community college. The community college also is very good if students go into those programs and need particular supports.

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You mentioned computers, I believe, and certainly under that program if they move on to secondary education, technology is available if it is needed for them. The other thing that has recently been established is a provincial transition committee and it was established under this CAYAC group, through the Children and Youth Action Committee, and recognized that there were students who were in that situation and they're exploring options and hopefully something will be forthcoming before too long.

However, I would encourage the honourable member, if a student completes school and then leaves school, then really the public school system I guess effectively has - if you've completed your public schooling then public schooling has done its job.

MR. GLAVINE: If you don't mind, Mr. Chairman, I was wondering how much time is remaining?

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have until 3:50 p.m., so you have another five minutes, member.

[3:45 p.m.]

MR. GLAVINE: Okay. I guess since I'll be handing off after this hour to the NDP first and then to the member for Halifax Citadel, perhaps I'll do the final question on education. I did want to make just a couple of comments on the provincial math exam, so that I did get on the record with these. I know the minister is looking at making perhaps a final statement to teachers and students in this regard. I guess my concerns are that I felt that the roll-out process here for this exam was not as strong as what we had seen with the other provincial exams, and I think that certainly was a factor in the low scores.

Certainly, in fact, just on the weekend talking with a math teacher from Central Kings, he was very quick to say that his top 5 per cent to 10 per cent of students did well and quickly gleamed the scope of the exam, the nature of the questions and did fine, but for a vast majority, one hour more on that exam for his students would have made all the difference, because one of the things that he starts off his year with to get them into the practice is to read the question, think about it, and when you finish make sure you review. Students on that provincial exam, did not have time to review.

Also, of course, there were boards who came out and said that, there were some limitations on the amount of in service that they were able to provide. We know that each board does a lot, a certain number of days. They didn't all get in, in some cases. I think that certainly needs to be considered. The fact, the reality, is that we had many different exams being written across the province in our schools. We had some schools where the students tackled every single question and we had other schools where they were not required to do certain questions.

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The other thing, and I don't think I'm telling the minister anything new here, he possibly has heard this, but during this time I did get a lot of e-mails, a lot of questions from across the province, being the Education Critic, so I don't think I'm telling him anything new here, but I certainly had Grade 12 math teachers and schools tell me that they pretty well took the situation into their own hands and would not see students who were applying for scholarships and entry be affected by the mark that they received, knowing, of course, that these would not even be reviewed by the province until Summer, therefore they felt that there were some deficiencies in the exam and therefore they went ahead and made a judgment call on their own. I just want to get that on the record.

And in one final question I would ask the minister: If he's in this position for some future months and years, we don't know, but if the next round of national testing scores are even lower than where we sit presently, would you be willing to take a look at having an educational summit to address some of the difficulties that we do have in our education system across the province?

MR. MUIR: I thank the honourable member for those comments and his observations. Some of them I have heard before. He mentioned the issue of an educational summit. Certainly it would be something that we'd be prepared to take under advisement, although in some ways, if you think of the schools boards' focus groups around the province as being a bit of a summit, the department's approach when they develop the document Learning for Life, again very broad consultation, as a bit of an educational summit, I think the department does have a gathering of educational leaders, a lot of times they're usually teachers and people who may be involved from the teacher training institutions, or the community colleges, or the liberal arts faculties and universities. We would certainly be prepared to look at something. I think it would have to be pretty carefully defined. When you talk about a summit, I'm not so sure of that - what I wouldn't mind participating in is a Canadian educational summit where we can promote a little bit more standardization among the provinces in terms of public education.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. The time has expired for the Liberal caucus. I recognize the honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.

MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, it's nice to see you in the Chair. I'm going to be sharing my time with the member for Cumberland South at an opportune time over the next few minutes. The member for Cumberland South has some issues to bring to the floor and I think it's appropriate that in the spirit of sharing that we hear from that member.

I have a couple of points I'd like to bring to the minister's attention. I received a hand-written copy of who's on this math team. I'd just like to bring this to the minister's attention. It was told in this hand-written note that a university professor from Acadia was included, that Martha Craig was involved in putting together the math test. The math

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consultant - although I don't know if we have those things anymore - Rick MacKinnon was involved and 11 other math teachers. I would like to have the minister, if it's possible, provide to me the names of those 11 other math teachers that put together the Grade 12 math test, at your convenience, with no rush.

I'd like to talk about the code of conduct. I'm firmly of the belief that the number one thing that is missing in many schools today, particularly at the junior high, middle school, high school level of education is discipline. I'm concerned about the fact that school principals feel powerless, if I can use that term. They certainly at times feel that they are not in charge. I've heard and I've seen previous ministers speak about the code of conduct. I've heard and read some of the expectations, but taking those words off paper and putting them into effect, are two very different things.

For example, I believe that there should be a dress code in schools, a dress code that is firmly and fairly applied. That dress code would be a reflection on parents, stakeholders' groups, input from various members of the community. But, I can tell you that having had the opportunity to visit many schools - not just the schools in my constituency, but other schools - I'm concerned about the fact that teachers and principals feel powerless in what's happening in our schools. I know there are members opposite who can reminisce as I do on occasion about the good, old days in education. I'm not saying that we have to bring back straps and we have to have them in school uniforms, but I can tell you that we have a problem in schools across this province when it comes to discipline. There are schools across this province that are in chaos because the teachers are not in charge.

I'd like you, if you could please, comment on those few topics. I've heard you mention before the code of conduct and how important it is, but where are we with taking those words off the paper and putting them into action?

MR. MUIR: It is a very interesting issue raised by the member for Timberlea-Prospect, I think I agree with a good deal of what he had to say. I don't think, as he had indicated, we can go back to the days of school uniforms in public schools, although we have some very successful schools in this province that do have very rigorous requirements. The issue of uniforms, other jurisdictions I expect it varies and of course, in some other countries, uniforms are required.

The issue of dress codes and what is appropriate apparel is a very difficult one. I think individual school administrators probably set different standards around the province. I know one of the things that my wife and I often talk about when we see some of the costumes that you see young people wearing on the street. (Interruption) Anyway, the standards have changed, I guess, and they are different from what I was used to and to be candid, I don't know if I have difficulty, how you describe it, but despite how young people dress today, most of them are very decent and respectful young people. That's the good thing.

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The issue of discipline in an individual school and it's kind of that aura when you get into a school. I referred to thinking it now at the high school level and some schools have a very rigorous standard and they adhere to it and it's very, very difficult. But, you have to remember as well when you're building a school culture, it does take some time to do that. Unfortunately, at the beginning of the standard setting - or whatever you wish to call it - you get a lot more transgressions and thus it seems more severe until it becomes an established part of the school culture.

Sometimes I think we have to be patient. On the other hand, I agree with the honourable member. When you go into enough schools you kind of get that feel. I've been in schools where you just get that real warm feeling when you walk in and there are some other schools where you go in and didn't get that real warm feeling. There are enough people who have done that who would understand the difference. I don't know exactly how to define it, but I guess the running of the school is the job of the administration.

The other thing that is now in place which may help the administration do their job a little bit easier, are these school advisory councils. For example, school advisory councils are in a position to dictate dress codes if they so felt. There are certain things like wearing your hat in a classroom and in some schools you can wear your hat, some you can't. I happen to think you shouldn't be in a classroom with your hat on. I know that is occasionally, maybe, deemed to be in the past.

MR. ESTABROOKS: That lack of consistency concerns me because I can tell you in the years that I was there, and my young friend for Sackville-Cobequid could tell you, when I first went to Sackville High School I know why I was sent there and I know the job that was put in front of me. I used to deal with students in a rather direct manner and they used to tell me, my father has a lawyer. Or, if you do that to me, I'll call the Bedford-Sackville Daily News. There was a contest in Sackville at the time - who was going to be on the front page of the BS - excuse the terminology, but we used to call it the BS News - who was going to be on the front page of the Bedford-Sackville Daily News more this week, the vice-principal at the high school or the cat that was caught on the roof or the dog that had run away and was run over by a fire truck, whatever.

I want to tell you, that lack of consistency, I have friends who are in the business of running schools. They don't feel they're in charge. They're being second-guessed all the time and of course, you have that feeling everybody's an expert in the school system because they happen just to have gone to school. As you well know, that doesn't make you an expert in running schools. The expectations are out there of dealing with young men and women with what they're wearing - that's a very small element - when you're looking at all the other things that are happening to these young men and women today, at whatever grade they're in, in junior high school or high school, but it all comes down to a matter of respect. It's a community effort. Who's raising the children? Is it the school teacher, or is it the entire community - that African proverb of the village and the child and who's responsible.

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[4:00 p.m.]

But I would like to talk about a couple of items now, if I could, Mr. Chairman, items of specific interest to me whenever I see P3 schools. I would like to direct you and your staff to the Supplement to the Public Accounts, March 31, 2003, and I compare it to the previous year, which I also have here. I'm going to turn to Page 48. I see this, Trust Funds-P3 Schools. Now in March 2002, the previous year, that you don't have there in front of you - I can make that available to you - the figure was $845,513.49. This year or the previous year for the Supplement to the Public Accounts, March 2003, the amount is $708,982. Now, the alarm bells always go off because I've said - and I know the members of the Third Party get upset with this comment - my children are going to be paying, my grandchildren could be paying, if they live in the community that I currently live in, for this P3 fiasco, but could you explain to me what this trust fund stuff is all about?

MR. MUIR: That particular line item, Mr. Chairman, under the P3 lease agreements, a portion of the lease payment was put into a trust fund for technology refreshment. So that money should be available - it's paid into a trust fund and it is available to refresh technology in the P3 schools.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I want the member to know, you never ask a question without knowing the answer. But here, the follow-up is, the amount has gone down. The amount has gone down, and I point out to you - I have the number here, I could provide you with a copy of the previous year's Supplement to the Public Accounts, which I, from year to year keep, this is the previous year - the March 2002 amount was $845,000 and now it's $708,983. Who keeps track of those numbers? Where are we with the fact that these dollars are being spent? Where are they being spent? To what schools and for what reasons?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, that money is basically paid on a square foot basis. It goes into a central fund, and then the money flows back to the schools. The decision is made between the developer, who would be the P3 group, and the Department of Education, if the applications for that money are ones that would be supported in a particular year.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, the specifics are what I'm after, because if I look at where the elementary children in my own community go to school, they go to a P3 school, St. Margaret's Bay Elementary, I'm not sure of the square footage of the school. There are other children who go to a P3 school up on the Hammonds Plains Road, and, of course, there's Ridgecliff Middle School, which is the junior high school for the growing communities of Beechville, Lakeside and Timberlea.

Now, I've been in all those schools, and I guess what I would like to have is assurance of the fact that - and when I look at the amount of money involved, who's involved in deciding, requesting, asking for, and I hope that the answer is that teachers are being consulted. Here we go again on this particular topic, when it comes to P3 schools. They build

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them, they have developments surrounding them, and, surely, there are benefits for the developer that had the opportunity to build the schools, but we do not have the opportunity, in the ongoing operation of the school, as a community to have our say.

So, could you clarify for me the process of who decides at these P3 schools what amount of money is being used? I understand that's per square foot, but for what reasons?

MR. MUIR: Each school, when it was built, had a technology plan, and the money was, as I said, paid into the fund as part of the lease payments. Each year the school would identify their technology needs, their needs for technology refreshment, and would submit their request to the developer. The developer, in turn, would submit that plan to the Department of Education. Once it's approved, then the money would flow to the schools.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, I have a number of other questions, and I know it will eventually come back at my opportunity that follows, but I would like to share my time at this stage with the member for Cumberland South.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cumberland South, who is occupying the seat of the member for Guysborough-Sheet Harbour.

HON. MURRAY SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect for agreeing to share his time with me today on this very important topic. I would also like to thank the minister and his staff for being here today. We're setting a little bit of history here today, with me taking the place of the honourable member for Guysborough-Sheet Harbour, but I do appreciate the member's indulgence.

I would like to ask the honourable Minister of Education, if he could, to explain the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board's budget, last year over this year, the increase, if there has been one, and exactly what those increases, he would think, would be useful within the board's budgetary process?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the honourable member for Cumberland South to indulge me for a minute. The change between last year and this year, in the budget for the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board was pretty close to $3.8 million, which was an increase of about 2.7 per cent. A portion of that money was to be used, obviously, for teachers' salaries and, in addition, there was money put in under the Learning for Life initiatives and operational increases, too.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, could the minister explain if it was his understanding or the department's understanding whether, in fact, the request from the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board was made that it was determined they would need additional funds or else there could be a possible layoff within the board's jurisdiction?

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MR. MUIR: I don't think, in that regard, that Chignecto-Central was any different than any other board in the province. The population is decreasing in the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board and, of course, some of the funding flows on a student ratio. Because the number of students went down, then it is expected that the number of teachers would be reduced.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, the minister would recall a meeting that MLAs for the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board area had with the school board. I think it would be fair to say that at that meeting, it was quite unclear between members, one member expressed - in fact, the Chairman - right off the bat that they would require an additional $0.5 million, and within two minutes of that statement being made, someone else on the board suggested they would need an additional $1 million to be able to maintain their present formula for the staffing of teachers.

Could the minister explain, within the Province of Nova Scotia, if there's a minimum standard requirement of programming, either for educational needs in general or at least in the P-12 schools, where there would have to be a minimum standard of programming available for a community to sustain a P to 12 school?

MR. MUIR: The public school program does prescribe graduation requirements, and it also prescribes subjects for elementary school, the mandatory subjects, and most schools do offer optional subjects. So yes, there is a prescribed program. Really, the bottom line is you have to meet the graduation requirements.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, the other thing I would like the minister to explain to me, if he could, when a board allocates specific staff for a school and when they hold certain positions in abeyance. Could he explain for the House what abeyance positions are, and how it's determined, possibly, that certain schools may get abeyance positions where other ones may not?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, what happens for most school boards in the province is that they staff on a formula. They hold a number of positions in reserve for special situations, for example, maybe an increase in enrolment or a rapid decrease or a rural school or something like that. What you'll probably find is that administrators, early in a year, would be given - you have x number of students, under the formula this would be the number of teachers that you would be entitled to, but then the board does hold back a number of positions to allow for some fairness and consistency across the district. Not every situation is the same and, of course, when you fund on a straight per-pupil formula, then it doesn't work.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I know the minister is well aware of the school in Advocate, which is a P to 12 school. This school is well known across this province for its academic standards, what the teachers and staff in the community have been able to provide

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to the community over the last number of years. In fact, for a small school, they're well known across Nova Scotia for their successes in athletics. (Interruptions) Thank you, Mr. Minister, that's right, exactly. But I can tell you a bombshell was dropped on the school in Advocate on Monday.

Last year, that school was notified that they would lose a teaching position. Now they only have seven positions left at that school in Advocate. Monday they were told they're going to lose another position. Some of those grades, at this point, are triple-rated, Primary, Grades 1 and 2 are together; Grades 3, 4 and 5 are together. I provided a copy of the schedule to the minister, so he can see what those teachers are facing today. I think the minister would agree that to take another position from that school, I believe, is - in the mind of the community - leading to the death of that community's school.

[4:15 p.m.]

I think that myself, as MLA for the area - I've told the community this, I've told the teachers this, I've told the board member there and the county councillor that I wouldn't stand by and allow the board to close that school, in fact I won't stand by and allow them to decrease the staff any further. I think it brings into jeopardy the opportunities for the students in that area to receive the proper education that they deserve and they need. I think a previous administration recognized that Advocate District School is an isolated school and gave it a specific designation at that time.

I'm wondering if the minister has had an opportunity to review the information I gave him, and if he's had an opportunity to consider what impact it would have on that school if, in fact, that school board is allowed to take another teaching position from that community?

MR. MUIR: As the honourable knows, I'm right behind him. I may be as familiar with the school at Advocate as anybody else in the House and, indeed, with the beautiful community of Advocate. For those of you who have not been down to visit Advocate Harbour or to see Cape d'Or, I would recommend it as a trip this Summer. It's not only beautiful down there, it's a great drive, but do it in the sunshine. I think the last time I was there, the honourable member and I were there announcing a Nurse Practitioner Program for the community health centre in Advocate, and I know that's been a great success.

The issue of the Advocate District School, it's a rural school. Clearly, it would not be our intention to let that school go, I can tell you that. There are a couple of reasons, I guess, for that. The primary one is that - you and I both know where Advocate is, and in the Winter what it's like sometimes to get in and out of Advocate. Not only that, if you were to close that school and move up to Parrsboro or even go back the other way, up to River Hebert or someplace, the travel times, well, they just wouldn't work. The future of the school in Advocate is certainly, I think, assured. It's a small rural school.

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On the other hand, talking about the number of teachers who are there, as I understand, I have staff looking at the documentation that you did give me the other day on the potential teaching schedules if a teacher is removed from that school. To be quite frank, they did raise some questions. The projected enrolment for that school is 61 students over 13 grades. That is not an easy situation, either, for the school board to deal with. I do know that the Advocate District School has been a good school and, indeed, we know it was right at the top of the province two or three years ago, I think in the AIMS group. I also know, particularly, the girls basketball program used to win the provincial championships regularly. (Interruptions) I think Mr. Taylor was on one of the other teams it played against. (Laughter)

It's a good school, it's a challenge. I can say that in regard to the situation that the honourable member has brought to my attention and to the attention of my staff, I had the regional education officer review that. I have some data on it. I can tell you that the recommendation that did come is, at this point, not final. The board is going to review the situation. It will go to the Education Committee, and then back to the board for a decision. I understand, as well, I'm told, that there is a public meeting tonight in support of that school, down in Advocate. I'm sure that the residents in that community - as they usually do - will make a very articulate and forceful presentation to the people who represent them on the school board.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, in my closing comments, I just want to mention to the minister that you're right, Advocate is about an hour away from the nearest community of Parrsboro, and that's on a good day like today. On terrible roads in terrible weather, it could mean that some students would have to face two hours on a school bus, in fact that was the school board's intention. I'm really pleased to hear what the minister has said here today.

But I'm really concerned that if the board is allowed to decrease the teachers at that facility any further that the stress, both on the system and on the programming and on the teachers themselves will probably be too much to bear. In fact, I've had some discussions with some of the staff the last couple of days. If that's allowed to happen, I think we'll probably see some teachers who will want to leave that community, and I think that will be disastrous to the community of Advocate.

Again, one last question to the minister, if I could. I would ask the minister if he could have his department do a review of the Advocate District School to ensure that the board is providing the proper numbers of teaching staff to provide the level of education programming that's afforded to the other students throughout this province. As well, I would ask the minister, again, to make a commitment here today, to the House, that the Department of Education will not allow the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board to either decrease the level of staff and educational opportunities at that school, or, in fact, allow that school to close.

[Page 364]

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, as the honourable member knows, and as I said earlier, the department staff is now looking at some of the data that was presented, and we would be very concerned if the school was not adequately staffed and able to deliver the program. However, the Department of Education does not make the ultimate staffing decision, that would be a decision of the board. We will be looking into the situation, and from a department perspective we are concerned about Advocate.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I think the minister would agree that Advocate is an isolated school. I think it's an isolated situation when we look at schools around the province, and I believe it's in the power of the minister and the department to actually designate that school as an isolated school, and ensure that the proper level of funding is available and staffing is available for that facility.

Even though I know the board is ultimately responsible for the allocation of staff and it will be throughout the district, I would like to ask the minister to have his department look at Advocate in an isolated situation, because it is an isolated community. I would ask the minister to have his staff at least look at that and consider whether or not the Department of Education and the minister can consider Advocate as a special situation and look at the complement of staff that would probably provide the programming that the students so much need and deserve there.

MR. MUIR: As the honourable member knows, the department is committed, next year, to developing a province-wide isolated school strategy. Clearly, the Advocate District School, in my mind, would be one of those schools that would be included.

MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Colchester North.

MR. WILLIAM LANGILLE: Mr. Chairman, it's certainly not a pleasure for me to be standing here today, but I believe I have to do this because of the people in my constituency, and the people in Pictou County, the people in Colchester County, and the people in Cumberland County. Today, in Truro, while listening to the radio station, I heard that there are going to be 24 teaching positions eliminated from the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board - the only good news was that these were not going to be permanent positions.

Now the reason quoted for the elimination of the teachers was simple - it was a lack of funding by the Department of Education to the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board. Very seldom do you hear word that there's a declining enrolment in these schools. I just want to get our facts straight, Mr. Minister. I believe last year there was a $500,000 infusion to the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board, is that correct?

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MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, I didn't hear the Truro radio station this morning. Last year, the member is absolutely right, there was a special grant - I guess you would call it a special grant or a supplemental grant - as a transitional thing to the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board of $500,000 to help them adjust to some of the declining student population. I think the honourable member points out a good thing. They said they are cutting - I believe he used the number - 24 or 23 teachers. It is probably more accurate to say that they are announcing that they intend to eliminate that many teaching positions, which is an entirely different thing.

The population is going down, I think it's gone about 500 in the population count from the last two years. If you divide that by the pupil/teacher ratio of 25, you would probably come out pretty close to what they're doing, simply on the basis of a formula. The number of retiring teachers, if we take right across the province, next year the number of retiring teachers is over 500. The number of teaching positions that, because of enrolment decline, would be taken out of the system would be 93. So it still means that there would be 400-plus new teachers hired.

MR. LANGILLE: That 400 or 500 new teachers to be hired, I am certainly not at this point going to get into certification of teachers, knowing what I already went through. Mr. Chairman, I have to say that I'm concerned about what the school board is saying, but I'm more concerned about what they're not saying. So, what I've been hearing, and the figures and the research that I've done - and I brought this up last year at a meeting, an in-camera meeting, but I'm going to bring it up again - I don't believe there's a need for a teaching position to be lost in Advocate, or practically anywhere else. There's more money for school supplies, more money for books, and so on.

I want to show you where I'm going with this. Is there an agreement between the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board and, I'm going to zero in on two Mi'kmaq Bands, Millbrook and Indian Brook?

MR. MUIR: Yes. Both the Millbrook First Nation and the Indian Brook First Nation have tuition agreements with the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board. Also, the Pictou Landing Band does as well.

MR. LANGILLE: I'm not going to zero in on Pictou Landing, because that's in another riding, although I know Indian Brook is and so is Millbrook; however, they are close and I'm aware of their situation. I must say at this time that I commend Chief Lawrence Paul for his Band and the way he is running his Reserve. Also, I understand that he gave $100,000 to the new Truro Junior High Enhancement Program. Is that correct?

MR. MUIR: Actually, Mr. Chairman, the Millbrook First Nation, their contribution in enhancements to the new junior high, where their students go, was $195,000.

[Page 366]

MR. LANGILLE: Well, that's certainly more than the $100,000 that I thought it was. I congratulate Chief Lawrence Paul for that. That brings me to the question of Indian Brook. Now last year, I knew they were a considerable sum of money in arrears, through this agreement. Could the minister please tell me how much money is owed to the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board by the Indian Brook Band?

MR. MUIR: The estimated amount at the end of March this year, March 31, 2004, was $1.8 million.

MR. LANGILLE: I just want to know if I heard you correctly - was that $1.8 million that's owed?

[4:30 p.m.]

MR. MUIR: The figure which I was given at the end of March this year, it was at the end of the last fiscal year I guess, was $1.8 million. Now whether there have been adjustments to that amount in the ensuing month, I don't know, but that is what it was the end of March.

MR. LANGILLE: Mr. Minister, we know that the federal government gives money to the Bands all across Canada for education. What these Bands are actually doing is outsourcing their pupils to our schools at the expense - I shouldn't say these Bands, I will retract that - what this Band is doing is outsourcing their pupils to our public schools and collecting the money. Where is that money going that the Band is collecting from the federal government for education, do you know?

MR. MUIR: The agreements are between the school boards and the individual First Nation community. My experience with that, when I was back in the system, at that time the only ones we dealt with were Millbrook and Indian Brook. I can't really give an accurate answer to the honourable member's question, I was on the other side of the equation.

MR. LANGILLE: Well with that statement it appears to me we know why the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board is having a hard time managing its finances, with monies like that owing. I'm not aware if there is another Band that owes money or not, but I was aware of this last year and I certainly brought it up to the members of that board last year. Is there any way that, you know, there is a process in place to collect this money, whether it be through Chignecto through to the Department of Education, assuming those moniest? Could you please elaborate on that.

MR. MUIR: The money flows directly from the federal government Department of Indian and Northern Affairs to the individual Bands. The Department of Education has offered - in working with the federal government and also with the Bands, and the school boards - if the federal government would be prepared to put the board's name on the cheque, as well as the Band's name or the department, then we would be pleased to act as a conduit

[Page 367]

for that, but really the issue of how money is distributed to the First Nation' community is through the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs and is something outside provincial jurisdiction.

MR. LANGILLE: As an MLA with a constituency in the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board boundaries, I'm not really concerned who collects it as long as it gets collected. I do not think that the taxpayers of Cumberland, Colchester, and Pictou Counties should be burdened with paying this debt. Also, I find it hard to believe that a teacher would be cut in Advocate, where we have been previously committed as an isolated school to keep those positions there - or any other position in our area. What I'm going to ask the minister to do is to not sit on this, but to act forthwith to come up with a solution to rectify this problem. Is the minister willing to do that?

MR. MUIR: Certainly, I'm quite prepared to ask our department officials to continue conversations with the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs, as well as our own Department of Aboriginal Affairs to see if there is some way to prevent this type of situation from occurring in the future.

MR. LANGILLE: I want to go into what happened previously to the staff of Chignecto-Central Regional School Board. I'm not going to dwell too heavily on this with the former superintendent, the former Finance Minister and so on, but we know the problems - and that has been taken care of, they are no longer with the board. Last year Truro had a by-election for a member of the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board. What percentage in Truro turned out for that election for the school board position?

MR. MUIR: The arithmetic I did on the situation came up with a number I was not very pleased with. There were two good candidates running for that seat in Truro, but the turnout for the by-election was 2 per cent.

MR. LANGILLE: A 2 per cent turnout would indicate to me that people do not want that school board that is now in place; in fact I don't believe the majority of people want that school board at all, or a school board there. Which brings me to this question: What monies do the people receive by being on the school board, can you give me that?

MR. MUIR: The stipend for a member of a school board is currently $7,200. That is under review and there will be an announcement made before the next set of school board elections what it will be the next time, if there is any change. I believe the vice-chairman gets $9,000 and the chairman gets $11,000.

[Page 368]

MR. LANGILLE: On top of that would they get travelling expenses, out-of-country trips and things along those lines?

MR. MUIR: The way the school board members are remunerated is there is a basic salary they get, and I'm going to have to check with staff to make sure that - I'm sorry, I told you the chairman was $11,000 but the chairman is $12,000, I have been advised by staff. In addition to that, each board member gets $1,600 for professional development, meal allowances and things like that. The travel allowance is in that as well, so they basically have $1,600 and it could be used for professional development, and I assume that when they travel - as you know in our constituency people come from three counties and four municipalities, so there is a fair bit of travelling. For example, if there was a board member travelling from Advocate, I'm not so sure that $1,600, if you met two or three times a month, would go very far if you were being paid mileage.

MR. LANGILLE: I'm not going to ask a question for a minute. I want to go on record as stating that in our system we have advisory boards set up for schools, which consist of teachers and parents who do their local schools and through those people we also have the family of schools which looks after another small segment of schools, and through that we would have a reporting system to the Superintendent of Schools. My personal view, Mr. Minister, would be that the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board be disbanded for not collecting their monies owed, putting that on the backs of the teachers and the pupils. Also, would you do a forensic audit of the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, as the honourable member knows, there was an external audit of that board, as well as the Strait board, three years ago, which led to the pilot structure. I'm advised that the books are audited each year. The department staff, I do believe, get monthly reports or quarterly reports, from school boards. If you were to have a forensic audit, I'm told that you would need some reason to have a forensic audit. The fact that they are owed some money through a contract - I guess I don't know enough about forensic audits is what I'm saying.

MR. LANGILLE: I want to bring this up to the minister - when the audit was completed last time, I must say that the Auditor General missed the meat of what was going on in the school board; in fact he gave a glowing report of the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board, only to find out what was happening afterwards. I'm sure the MLAs knew, which was passed along but never acted on.

But I'm not going to go there. I'm talking about when they did the nuts and bolts, not the audit, but when it came out about using unused vacation credits towards their pensions, excessive expensive accounts, whatever - which doesn't seem to bother anybody - and giving monies to certain school areas and not to others, for example, approximately $2 million to Celtic schools in Pictou County and nothing, hardly, towards Cumberland County. These are things that came out in that audit, but prior to that - well, that didn't even come out in the

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audit, that came out after the audit - the audit that was conducted never showed anything but a glowing report for that school board. In fact, then-Superintendent MacDonald sat in that gallery gloating at the Public Accounts Committee. I was a member across there.

The bottom line is it's not fair, Mr. Minister, for the taxpayers, and for the pupils to go without books, without school supplies, while Indian Brook owes these taxpayers $1.8 million. They should not have to shoulder that. That, in itself, shows a discrepancy in what's going on in the board - or is it our system?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, I missed the first part of his question. I wonder if he could repeat it for me?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Colchester North, perhaps you could repeat the first part of the question, as we continue with some of the toughest questioning the minister has undertaken since April 30^th.

MR. LANGILLE: And he didn't know the answer - I'm used to stalling tactics like that. (Laughter) Anyway, I'll let you look at Hansard . . .

AN HON. MEMBER: We've got a seat for you over here, Bill. We have a seat for you.

MR. LANGILLE: I'll let you look at Hansard . . .

AN HON. MEMBER: He's probably coming.

MR. LANGILLE: I'm not going to go there. Mr. Minister, what I'll say is I've concluded my questions for today and I thank you very much.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley. You have about five minutes left.

MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: I would like to thank the honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect for giving me an opportunity just to place one question. Following along the same line of questioning that my colleague, the member for Colchester North, raised, I'm greatly troubled, because last year we were told that because of financial pressures the elementary school in Middle Stewiacke closed, Brookfield Memorial School closed. In Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley and in Colchester County, we feel we did our part, as far as working with the school and working with the Department of Education and the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board.

[Page 370]

[4:45 p.m.]

In support of my colleague's request for a forensic audit - I'm not so sure, Mr. Minister, if you've had much to do with the CCRA, however, being from a business background I want to tell you that I have had some relationship and involvement with a forensic audit - when there are questions about dollars and how dollars are expended, a forensic audit will take it line by line, every little, minute expenditure is brought out into the open.

Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to point out that I am supporting my colleague's call for a forensic audit. The fact of the matter is that I believe that not all stakeholders are contributing equally to the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board. I would ask the honourable minister and his staff, his colleagues to his right and left, to give the honourable member for Colchester North every consideration regarding his request for a forensic audit, because when schools are closing, whether it's in Colchester, Cumberland, or Pictou, under the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board, and some of the stakeholders aren't stepping up to the plate and paying equally, then, in fact, I believe there certainly is reason for a forensic audit.

I will do the honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect a favour and just leave it at that. I thank you for your indulgence.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister, did you find a question in that? Perhaps you would like to finish up, there's approximately two minutes left in the time.

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, the observations by the member for the beautiful Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley, I've heard them. Again, I don't know much about forensic audits. I'm advised that at least a few years ago there was clearly some management practices that were open to question at that board, and they were drawn not only to the attention of the department, but the attention of the public and, I'm told, they were fixed. If any honourable member would have some specific issue - a forensic audit implies wrongdoing, I suppose, and I'm looking at my lawyer friend across the way to see whether he's going to nod or say no, or something like that. He doesn't know either.

Anyway, Mr. Chairman, clearly, if there are management practices, we are prepared to work with he board to see that they're straightened out.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect, you have one minute.

MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: I really don't have a question. I have a request that members of the Legislative staff who have been watching this, Mr. Theriault and Mr. Laffin, perhaps they could make some seat arrangements for tomorrow morning's session. We would

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point out that we could fit a couple more desks on this side, if it's acceptable. Thank you for your time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Annapolis.

MR. STEPHEN MCNEIL: Mr. Chairman, when I was first elected, I was given some advice: When you're on the floor of the Legislature be careful, because the enemy is all around you - and I didn't know what they meant until just now. (Laughter)

I want to thank the minister and his staff for giving me an opportunity to ask a few questions. I want to go back to an issue which he knows quite a bit about, and that is the Middleton Regional High School and the project that is being asked about, on the gymnasium. I'm sure he knows the situation that precipitated all of this, the music room that was being closed due to health and safety issues. That project has been put forward, and I'm wondering where it stands within his department.

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, I used to be fairly familiar with that fine institution of long standing in that great community of Middleton, which also produced some very fine basketball teams if I remember correctly. Indeed, I can say that - I guess the member for Timberlea-Prospect is gone - I think in my mind one of the finest high school athletic coaches ever to grace this province had his start down in Middleton, and that was Bob Pierce from Truro. Anyway, he was just an outstanding person.

What I can tell you, Mr. Chairman, as I told the honourable member the other day, the particular capital project which he talks about, and I recognize that it's needed, is not on the capital priority list this time. We have suggested that he and the other community members who are raising this issue, they make their concerns known to the school board. We are in the process of setting up another capital construction/major renovation committee and we'd be quite pleased if the board presents that and wishes to make alterations to the list they've already submitted at that time, and as a department we'd be quite prepared to look at suggestions from the board. The list, as he knows, is not constructed by the department, it comes in from the boards.

MR. MCNEIL: If the board makes that their priority, will your department act on it?

MR. MUIR: Everything has its time, Mr. Chairman, and in the proper time certainly we'd be prepared to go ahead with it, yes.

MR. MCNEIL: The reason I'm asking that is in 1999 the Bridgetown Elementary School was the number-one priority of the Valley District School Board, and having a gymnasium and the lunch room built on the end of it. It was their number-one priority at that point and as we've gone through, over the last five years, every other one of their priorities has been dealt with - some of them have been promised in 2008-09 - except for that school.

[Page 372]

I'm wondering, what happens with that list when it reaches the department? It was a priority of the department in 1999, and yet it seems to be falling off the radar screen.

MR. MUIR: What happens, Madam Chairman - and welcome to the Chair - is that each board submits its own list. The fact that something is or it may be number one on the priority list of the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board may not end up to be number one on the list of the province. All boards come in and submit their number-one and number -two priorities, and sometimes priorities have to be changed where unforeseen things happen. In general, once the list comes in, then the group and the department tries to determine where the need is the greatest.

MR. MCNEIL: Madam Chairman, I'll go back to that again. The board is telling me that priority was leapfrogged to other priorities in their district. When they gave you the list that was not on the bottom of their list, but projects that were behind that are being promised 2008-09 and Bridgetown Regional Elementary School has been left out of the equation. I'm just wondering, if the board is sending you a list, why are they sending you a list if that project is being leapfrogged to other projects below it?

MR. MUIR: I think I'm going to have to get some more detail on that. I can tell you that when the submissions come in they are assessed. I think what he was telling me is that Bridgetown was a number-one priority?

MR. MCNEIL: In 1999, Bridgetown Elementary School was the number-one priority of the government. We changed governments, and it has not been dealt with since. Schools that were below them on the list were promised 2008-09, and Bridgetown still has not been dealt with five years later. That's the issue. Why all of a sudden has a priority of 1999 been let go, even though it's still on the list of the Annapolis Valley Regional School Board? They'll tell you every one of the other priorities they put forward last year was dealt with. The one in my riding was not, and that was the Bridgetown Regional Elementary School.

MR. MUIR: Madam Chairman, the only thing I can tell him is we'll do an analysis of the list submitted. What happened back in 1999 or whenever it was, I'm going to have to receive a briefing on.

MR. MCNEIL: I would appreciate him doing that and letting me know where it stands. I was interested in listening to the member for Cumberland South talk about the school in advocate. As you are well aware, two schools in my riding are closing, Margaretville Consolidated School is closing at the end of the year, as well as the Springfield Elementary School. Both of them are small role schools. Springfield has been an isolated school which has been kept open based on that reason. It is being closed and those students are going to be bused out of the school board district to the adjacent one in Bridgewater. I was listening for the answer that he was giving in terms of the priority that his department will look into seeing what they can do for Advocate, and I'm wondering what your department has done

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for the community of Springfield in trying to keep their school opened based on the fact that it's an isolated school.

MR. MUIR: Madam Chairman, I think to compare the situation in Springfield and the situation in Advocate is maybe sort of drawing - anyway, they're a little different. I've been to that Springfield school, by the way. I've been there and visited it on more than one occasion, also the Margaretville school. We have not been asked for any input or any advice in that matter.

MR. MCNEIL: Is your department going to develop a plan to deal with a number of these rural schools? As you know, with the depopulation that's taking place in many rural areas, the declining enrolment in many rural schools is going to be causing issues. Is your department putting together any kind of task force to look at how we deal with the rural schools and declining population around them?

MR. MUIR: In September 2005, there will be a plan in place to deal with small isolated rural schools. The criteria have not yet really been determined. What is an isolated school? We know what rural schools are, but the determination of "isolated" is probably a more difficult concept to define.

MR. MCNEIL: Just one further question, then I'll share my time with my college for Halifax Citadel. Just to go back to the rural schools and depopulation. Based on the funding formula that happens now, so much per student, with the declining population in many rural schools, is there any move afoot to go toward funding instead of per student, per classroom? What I mean by that, funding a certain amount per class, X number of dollars for the teacher. Whether you have 25 students or 20 students in that class, it costs you X number of dollars to provide that Grade 10 math course, and I'm wondering if you're going to look at doing a classroom funding as opposed to per pupil funding?

MR. MUIR: The current formula, money is allocated 75 per cent, allocated on the number of students that districts had in 1996. Only 25 per cent of the money is distributed according to last year's enrolment, not this year's, obviously, but last year's enrolment. As the honourable member knows, we have engaged a person to review how the money is allocated to look at the funding formula. We look forward to receiving his initial report in November, maybe even before that. That report will be sent back to the partners for their input and then a final one will be drafted and dealt with by the department. I'm going to tell you, as you know, the individual who has agreed to do that is a very excellent individual. We were indeed fortunate to get him and he will be consulting with school boards and other educational partners as he comes to conclusions about how public monies to public schools should be distributed.

[Page 374]

MR. MCNEIL: I just want to thank the minister and his staff for answering the questions, and I look forward to hearing your response in regard to the questions I had.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Citadel.

MR. DANIEL GRAHAM: Thank you, very much, Madam Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Minister, and your officials for appearing to answer questions concerning estimates.

[5:00 p.m.]

Madam Chairman, I'd like to put some of my questions into some context at the outset. In my constituency, as I knocked on the doors of the homes of Halifax Citadel last year, there was one issue that stood above all the rest as a concern to the people who are in my community. It was education. First, public education.

The people in my constituency have said - and frankly, Mr. Minister, I agree with them - that the public education system in Nova Scotia is in desperate shape. They've also indicated great concerns about post-secondary education, specifically around funding. Many students reside in my constituency; they too have expressed real concerns.

I will not be the immediate perpetrator of friendly fire so I would like to share with you a balanced perspective at the outset, Mr. Minister, and that is that I know that you've been a career educator. Undoubtedly this is an issue about which you care a great deal. I can also, in fairness, say that the desperate situation of the Nova Scotia education system - particularly the public education system - was not of your creation. But, you and your department have the responsibility to fix it. I question, when your budget has only been increased by 2 per cent, whether or not you, your Cabinet, your department recognize the significance of the issues and the challenges that are being faced by Nova Scotians.

A good education has helped form this province. It has created the fibre of this province - not just socially, but economically. It's clear that public education has raised the standard of living and indeed has allowed people to pull themselves up out of poverty. The expression that I use from time to time when speaking about the importance of education was that excellence costs, but over the long term, mediocrity costs even more.

In the last couple of days I've had the opportunity to review some of the comments by Joseph Howe about the importance of education more than 150 years ago. Mr. Howe appeared here, as you would know, first as a reporter and eventually as a legislator and ultimately as the Premier of this province. On the issue of education, Mr. Howe said, "The subject of education . . . is one of the most important which the Legislature can be called upon to consider. Compared with it, questions of roads and fisheries and of politics, sink into insignificance."

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I couldn't agree more with that sentiment as it relates to today. Mr. Minister, we have a desperate situation in Nova Scotia with respect to the public education system and it is the responsibility of you and your department to lead the way to finding improvements. I'm going to start my comments with a reference to an article that's contained, as a result of a study, in Today's Parent magazine - undoubtedly you'd be familiar with it - from September of 2002. It was a notoriously reported article which ranked Nova Scotia at the bottom with Prince Edward Island with respect to the quality of public education in this province. In particular, it says that when it comes to test scores and scholastic environment, we were tenth with respect to test scores, we were tenth with respect to the scholastic environment in this province.

In light of that, Mr. Minister, I would ask you, given that it appears that when it comes to the scores of our students, we are at the bottom of the heap. Why were you only able to secure a 2 per cent increase in the global budget for public education?

MR. MUIR: I heard with interest his reference to Joseph Howe and what Joseph Howe thought was important. I believe one of the things that Joseph Howe mentioned, education ranked right up there with fishery and with roads and with politics. I just want to tell you, with most Nova Scotians, roads and fisheries are very, very important, but there was one other thing that Joseph Howe did not mention in the passage that you read and that was the importance of health to Nova Scotians.

Clearly, while education is important - it's extremely important to me and I'm in relatively good health so it's probably more important to me right now than health is, but in your constituency, a tremendous number of people there, I would think, would, in one way or another, be involved in the education sector. You have three major universities in your constituency which are huge. I know the building in which I live is filled with students, or most of them are, so to be quite frank, in your constituency which actually - and I should be calling on you as an MLA now that I think of it and making some demands of you.

But, education is extremely important, it really is, but the fact is that when we were making our very difficult decisions on budget this year, health got the lion's share. That's what most people said was most important. The second lion's share went to education. Public school education got a 2 per cent increase as the honourable member mentioned, however, what the other part of that question is, is it enough? Would I have liked to have more? Yes, absolutely. Did I fight for more? Yes. Did I get more? Yes. Did I get enough? No. The population has gone down 1.5 per cent so to look at simply the 2 per cent without looking at the influencing factors probably doesn't tell the whole picture.

MR. GRAHAM: Madam Chairman, I would be happy to be called upon as the MLA to assist in any way possible in the Minister of Education's pursuit of better education in Nova Scotia at the post-secondary level or at the public level. I'd be concerned about whether or not as an MLA I'd be able to get the proper attention of he and his Cabinet, however, as

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I turned it around and asked them whether or not they would do something to address the desperate state of our situation. To describe the second biggest lion's share goes to education is to state the obvious because it's the second largest line item on the budget and 2 per cent is really the figure that requires the greatest attention. Especially when one considers it in light of the huge increases in problems that exist in our education system.

I hope I didn't hear the Minister of Education in any way diminish the importance of education. What Howe said, just to repeat, "The subject of education is one of the most important which the Legislature can be called upon to consider. Compared with it, questions of roads and of fisheries and of politics sink into insignificance.". I'm not sure if - I see the minister nodding right now - he didn't hear the last part . . .

MR. MUIR: . . . I thought he was saying that the roads and fisheries were right up there with education.

MR. GRAHAM: Okay.

MR. MUIR: Because they are to most Nova Scotians . . . Joseph Howe . . .

MR. GRAHAM: For the record, Madam Chairman, I'm not sure if that recorded, but the Minister of Education misheard what was spoken in the first instance and did, in fact, now endorse the question of education being, frankly, a superior issue to the ones of fisheries, roads and politics in these circumstances. I would daresay that he is absolutely right about that. The quality of a government, the measurement of a government, is based on the gifts that it leaves its children and there's nothing more important than the gift of a good education and in Nova Scotia we are absolutely failing.

I would like to draw the minister's attention to the School Achievement Indicators Program. He and his officials would know that the SAIP indicators are the standard across Canada with which there is a measurement of whether or not a system is doing well or whether it's doing badly scholastically. It is the only - as I understand it - national indicator. As the minister would know, or his officials would know, each year there is a measurement for different subject areas. For example, I'll just lay the foundation for this, so far the SAIP assessments have been done in math, writing and science. The last time that I have a record of when they tested math was in 2001; writing, 2002; science, 1999 - although I'd like to think that there's something more up to date with respect to that and if your officials have something more up to date with respect to science, I'd be pleased to take it.

I'd like to speak about the measurements that are taken from each of those categories. With respect to math, in the year 2001, the SAIP test examined math content for 13-year-olds and problem solving for 13-year-olds, in English and French. Both are of concern to us. English is obviously the predominant population in Nova Scotia. They also did the same thing for 16-year-olds. I'd like to indicate to the minister what the results were in Nova Scotia

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compared to the other provinces in Canada when most recently, we had tests done on the math scores of our students. Math content, tenth out of 10. Math problem solving, tenth out of 10. This is for 13-year-olds on the standard tests across this country. For 16-year-olds, seventh out of nine for math content. For 16-year-olds for problem solving, we were seventh out of 10.

If you flip the page over, Mr. Minister - I see the quizzical look on your face and I'm troubled by that to some extent, because these are the facts of the SAIP reports - if you knew these in advance, one wonders whether or not there might have been a more vigorous competition for the funding for education in this province, because when we turn to writing, the last time SAIP examined writing, was in 2002, and our 13-year-olds, in English, were tenth out of 10. The 16-year-olds, were tenth out of 10. If we turn the page to science, which was done last according to my records in 1999, for 13-year-olds, we ranked ninth out of 10. For 16-year-olds, we ranked seventh out of 10. That's a crisis. That is desperate. That requires more than a 2 per cent increase, and I'm asking you why you only got 2 per cent and whether or not you would agree with me that the system is in crisis and it needs a serious improvement on where we're headed?

MR. MUIR: The honourable member presents some interesting numbers. I take it he went through those line by line, which is fair enough, and I would have to take a look at the overall numbers to really talk about the test scores. He's asked the question, was 2 per cent enough? The answer is probably, no. I have never said that 2 per cent is enough, nor would any of the other departments that we have here indicate that their budget is enough, but that's the nature and I think you can ask any department of any government in this country and ask them if their budget is big enough and they will tell you, no, I don't think we're any different there.

Do I think the system is in crisis? The answer is no, I certainly do not. Can it be improved and are we working to improve it? The answer is yes.

MR. GRAHAM: Madam Chairman, a simple question to the Minister of Education about whether or not he was familiar with our standing, with respect to the SAIP scores?

MR. MUIR: I think I saw them three or four years ago. I have not looked at them since I entered this portfolio. However, I will tell you that this government did find $1 million last year to test every Grade 6 student in literacy.

MR. GRAHAM: Madam Chairman, perhaps if the minister had indeed been more up to date, more familiar than with what had happened three or four years ago, we would have had a different situation now. Mr. Minister, I'm going to summarize those results that I've just described to you. Tenth out of 10, seventh out of nine, tenth out of 10, seventh out of 10, tenth out of 10, tenth out of 10, ninth out of 10, seventh out of 10, and your saying we're not in a crisis?

[Page 378]

MR. MUIR: We are a system in transition. We certainly have areas for improvement, and if you take a look at the efforts and the targets of the department in the last four years, then you will see that there has been significant investment in the public system. I know that the honourable member is getting a little high and mighty right now, but it's been drawn to my attention that it was his colleagues who dropped the money for universities by about 12.5 per cent, during their governance. I guess, if there is some room for improvement, we probably would all would have to say that we have some responsibility.

[5:15 p.m.]

MR. GRAHAM: Madam Chairman, I could appreciate the minister's interest in trying to get off the issue of SAIP scores and on to other issues. There will be a time for post-secondary education to be discussed, but since he raised the issue of funding with respect to post-secondary education, I would just respond that he will recall that at the latter years of the MacLellan Government, there was a $24 million commitment to be phased in at $8 million per year over three years. What happened under this government when they took power was, they halved that $8 million commitment to $4 million, then dropped if off to nothing thereafter. That's an indication of the commitment that this government showed in relation to its predecessor, the MacLellan Government. That's borne out by the President of CONSUP right now. The President at St. F. X., Sean Riley, has repeated the statistics that I've just said on a number of occasions.

These aren't just things that I'm creating out of the blue. That's a demonstration of the commitment, but I said at the outset, that this minister shouldn't bear all the responsibility for all of the problems that we face and I will acknowledge that once again, but it is his responsibility and it's the responsibility of the people in his department to ensure that we move in a positive direction and it's quite obvious that his and his department's sense of whether or not we are in a crisis, is at the heart of whether or not we're going to be able to take an action plan forward, which satisfies the needs of young Nova Scotians and their parents.

If, Mr. Minister, the scholastic scores of young Nova Scotians are tenth out of 10 in relation to the rest of the country, can you please comment on whether you feel that represents the cause for immediate, urgent action represented by a greater increase than the 2 per cent that you've received at budget time?

MR. MUIR: Madam Chairman, I want to tell you that I would prefer that our students, if what the honourable member has reported is accurate - I have no reason to believe that it wasn't - we're not tenth over 10 in the country. I will tell you that this department has, over the past number of years, tried to remove a number of deficits and has put a considerable amount of money into program development, teacher development, a million new text books and, new testing programs, which I think, over the course of time, will see these results change upward. I do want to also remind the honourable member that the education system

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nationally in Canada, probably has about the highest standard in the world. It is no consolation, I guess, to be tenth out of 10, as you have said, but when our students write international exams, we finish very well.

MR. GRAHAM: I'd appreciate it if the Minister of Education was able to table for the Legislature, supporting documentation regarding his last assertion that in Canada, we have perhaps the highest standard of education in a public education system. I would ask for that undertaking. I do recall when some of these exams were done that the Province of Alberta, in fact, rated quite highly, which brought up the national average. I don't know in relation to what other countries that was measured, but that was one exam. If you were in Alberta, I think you could be comforted about the state of the education system there and if you could be in a number of other provinces, other than Nova Scotia, I think that you could be similarly comforted.

If I could refer back to the previous article that I had referenced. We know and of course the minister knows that a good public education isn't just about the scholastic scores that somebody receives. It's not just about the scholastic environment, where we ranked tenth out of 10, according to the research that was done by this group. It also measures other types of things, the things that happen outside the traditional three Rs: music, drama, physical education, and in those areas, unfortunately, Mr. Minister, according to this research, our province ranked ninth out of 10.

MR. MUIR: I want to tell you that we have, he's talking about school bands and music programs in this country, and I'll tell you our school music programs are probably the best in this country. Forget about what that thing says, but I just want to tell you, I know that.

MR. GRAHAM: I appreciate the bluster, Madam Chairman, that comes in response to this and I'm familiar with the bands in Truro. My sister-in-law actually plays in one. They're very good bands. The school bands undoubtedly are good bands as well, but there are good bands elsewhere and there is good drama elsewhere, and there is good phys-ed elsewhere and I can anecdotally tell you that since my children moved back from Ontario, instead of having physical education five times a week, they have it two times a week.

There are other concerns that Nova Scotians have, but just to stay on this point and point the minister to specific research in this area, the report that I just tabled and the minister is welcome to read, contains the specific indication of what this means. Page 64 of the article that I was referring to, they refer to a Canadian Fitness and Lifestyle Research Institute report on physical activity and various other things and at the heading of this they say education is more than formal knowledge, it involves development of personal talents from sports to music and drama. It may well be drama club or art class, not math or history that captures and keeps a child's interest in school.

[Page 380]

Mr. Minister, our students ranked ninth out of 10, despite your bluster. Do you have a response to that?

MR. MUIR: What I can tell the honourable member before I get into his question was he talks about school drama and school musicals. Some of our high schools put on just exceptionally fine school musicals and school dramas. Indeed I had the great privilege about three weeks ago going to see Copacabana at the Colchester Educational Centre and I would again stack our school productions up against the best in the country, I would think.

You were talking about phys-ed and lifestyle and things like that. The honourable member does touch on a topic where I think it's well documented. This government has taken numerous actions, including physically active lifestyle. We've started the Office of Health Promotion. The lifestyle of young Nova Scotian students, a lot of them, is not really very good. When we measure ourselves against the rest of the country, we haven't fared very well, except when it comes to things like juvenile diabetes and things like that where we have done very well. The government has recognized that and again has turned some of its energies to trying to deal with this, not only through the schools, but through the Department of Health Promotion.

To just give you an example, Madam Chairman, of some of the programs that we have done, I think my colleague, the Minister of Health Promotion responded to it in a question perhaps from the member for Kings West the other day, talking about we had the highest rate of teen smoking in the country. Because of the initiatives that have been taken, at least I think in good part by the initiatives of this government since we came to office, we no longer have the dubious distinction of leading the county in teen smoking. We found that the number of young people smoking has decreased and that's a good thing. Now I say that, I guess, when you're at the top you have no place to go but down. The government has looked at education from a broad perspective, and we've not only been concerned with the academic things, we have been concerned really with health and wellness.

MR. GRAHAM: This is a crossover for both the minister and for me, Madam Chairman, because he was the former Minister of Health and heard me speak often about the issues and concerns of smoking and some of things that he raises. He can't make those comments without getting my dander up about health promotion in this province. I know that the honourable minister knows of my great concern about that. He seemed at one point to have the pom-poms in his hand and singing a tune something like, we're no longer last, or we're second last, or something like that when it comes to smoking amongst teenagers. If they were serious about making sure that smoking stopped amongst teenagers in this province, they would make sure that the smoke-free for life program, that only is made available to about 20 per cent of the young people in this province, is in fact available to about 100 per cent of them.

[Page 381]

I see the quizzical look on the minister's face once again. The smoke-free for life is a program that's recognized by Health Canada as one of the best teen anti-smoking programs in Canada, but unfortunately, even though it is modeled in Nova Scotia, it's not one that's available or it's not one that's provided to all of our students. For him to indicate that there's greater efforts being made with respect to physical activity, I think it could be easily argued that in Nova Scotia, our young people are the least active of any young people in all of Canada. That's a serious problem.

We have half as many young people involved in sport as the Province of Saskatchewan that has about the same population. We take more money out of sport in taxes than we actually put in. This government parades around about the $3.8 million that was just injected. When you look at the $3.8 million that was just injected in health promotion as a percentage of the increase in the total health budget, the total health budget increased by about $233 million. Health promotion increased by $3.8 million if you wrap them all together. So once again, just as Statistics Canada has said for a long period of time, we in Nova Scotia spend less than 2 per cent of our health care budget on illness prevention in health promotion. We're not doing anything grand. We' re way behind the other provinces.

The problem is that if we timidly move toward - and I'm getting an increasing sense that the government hasn't fully come to terms with the significance of some of these problems - if we even partially come to terms with them, and we timidly move in a positive direction, we're never going to get to where we need to be. That's my rant about health promotion. (Interruption) Sorry, I missed that. I wish I did catch it, Mr. Minister.

The point that should be made here, is that in our education system if we ranked ninth out of 10 when it comes to drama, physical education and music, surely we should be doing something about it. Hopefully members, people in your department are familiar with the research that suggests that if you find, some of it is borne out and I think you may have referred to it, that if you want somebody to achieve in life, if you want success in their life, find something that they're good at, and it may be drama, music or a sport or it may be chess - the tremendous research that has been done in this area. I won't go on about it, but it seems clear again, that the significance of the problem in our education system, isn't realized by the Minister of Education, which is one of the most troubling things of all.

We'll move to the issue of having some rigour in the education system. I know that this government has shown again, some interest in this area with its move toward report cards, which I would applaud, more standardized report cards. On the question of class sizes, which I expect we will hear the minister comment on, there have been steps that were announced to ensure that on a graduated basis, students who started school, I believe it was last year, will continue to be, at least for the first three or four years of their elementary time, in a class that doesn't exceed 25. At least as long as it doesn't exceed 25 until September 30^th or so of that year. It's interesting to note that in other provinces, like Ontario for those same

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years, they're looking to limit class sizes to 20. It's not that we are particularly avant-garde with respect to those types of initiatives.

[5:30 p.m.]

At page 29 of the Learning for Life document that the minister should have in front of him, there is a reference to the issue of accreditation, which the minster might recall was an issue that our Party showed some real interest in, although we were prepared to go beyond just eight schools as a pilot across the province for an accreditation program. My question for the minister is whether or not that program is going to be accelerated to ensure that all the public schools in Nova Scotia will go through a proper accreditation program, so that the young people and their parents realize that the schools are being tested properly and that they're meeting the high standards that Nova Scotians reasonably should expect?

MR. MUIR: I thank the honourable member for the question. In light of his comments leading into this question, and from the question before, I expect he may wish to spend a little time with my colleague, the Minister of Health Promotion.

I guess in terms of the accreditation - and I support school accreditation, I've supported school accreditation for a long, long time - there are eight pilot schools going through an accreditation process now and there will be eight more added. I guess more importantly than the accreditation to get the whole thing going is that all schools are required to develop a school improvement plan in conjunction with the school advisory council. The fact that this is now required means that there are going to be positive steps taken. When we review the pilots, we'll determine the template for the accreditation process and move it out across the whole province.

MR. GRAHAM: The minister has indicated that he is a supporter of the accreditation program, but acknowledges that it's only available in Nova Scotia for eight pilot locations. He speaks about all schools having to put together a plan - that's a very modest indication of whether or not each school is able to set a plan for the year and actually achieve something. It seems to be basic. One would hope that schools would have had plans going back decades, and surely this government and this minister isn't taking any credit for the fact that schools are actually having to plan a year in advance.

This is a square question about the issue of accreditation, where you measure whether or not the schools are meeting expectations that are set in advance. The minister has indicated that he is supportive of this idea, and to say that we will study it further and then perhaps go forward is inconsistent with what the minister has already said. I'm asking the minister whether or not he's prepared to move forward with accreditation with greater urgency than what has been indicated up to this point.

[Page 383]

MR. MUIR: As I indicated, accreditation was important to the government and it was important to the minister, and if you looked at the accountability statements in the document from the school board and their meetings around the province, and also our Learning for Life meetings around the province, clearly the issue of accountability and part of that accountability is accreditation.

We have begun the process with pilot schools, and we're going to develop a template for all schools in the province. It is one thing to say go ahead and drop the hammer on the schools. The reason you do accreditation is for improvement and to maintain standards, as the honourable member knows. If you wish to have the improvement move along as quickly as you would like to have it move, you have to have buy-in from those who are going to be involved. My experience is that it's probably more advantageous to go slower and do it right than to go quickly and not do it right.

MR. GRAHAM: Madam Chairman, that seems to be the mantra of this whole government - slow is the order of the day for practically every initiative that they talk about. The minister responsible for the Office of Health Promotion has heard me frequently speak about the slowness of speed with respect to it. But when this government took the reins of government back five years ago, it had a mandate to ensure that we were going to move forward.

What's most troubling is that when one compares the scores on the SAIPs - and I will allow the minister to do this in his own time and respond if he wishes on the record with respect to whether or not our SAIP scores have gone up or gone down in the time this government has been in place - it would indicate that our SAIPs, certainly with respect to the information that I've provided already today, have been going down. We're going in the wrong direction with a government that doesn't seem to have a particularly strong sense of urgency about whether or not we are in a crisis. It's obvious that we're going to stay tenth out of 10. We're obviously not going to be able to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps if the response is a "let's study it, let's be prudent, let's recognize that these things take time".

Well, in other provinces and in other places, there's a greater sense of urgency. When Nova Scotia's young students are applying to schools and universities and looking for jobs in other parts of Canada, the last thing we would ever want is for somebody to be saying they received an education in Nova Scotia and we'll apply a discount as a result.

I'm not suggesting that we're there, Mr. Minister, but as the scores continue to come out increasingly and as our government lacks any sense of urgency about whether or not we're going to move forward, it is the young people of Nova Scotia who are going to suffer, and it's going to be the economy of Nova Scotia that's going to suffer. Without that sense of urgency, with only receiving a 2 per cent increase in your budget, it's clear that we are not at all supporting the young people who need to move forward.

[Page 384]

I'd like to turn to the subject of special education, which the minister knows is a very pressing issue for thousands and thousands of families across this province. I would argue that it's a pressing issue for approximately 150,000 students in our public education system. A strong special education system is a win-win for all students; a system that is underfunded and under-resourced is one that is going to fail everyone. The comments that I make, Mr. Minister, are not just in relation to those families, those children who have special needs, but for all parents who are saying that the integration that was promised has not at all been a success. It has failed in some respects and we need to draw attention to that and we need to fix it.

I'm a supporter of the principle of integration. Back in 1995, as you and your officials would know, a special education policy was released for Nova Scotians - 1995 - as I thought about that, as I was thinking about my comments here today . . .

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Order. I'm having a hard time hearing the honourable member for Halifax Citadel speak. Thank you.

MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Madam Chairman. As I thought about that it occurred to me that a student who would have been in Primary at the time we came forward with a very progressive special education policy manual would be finishing Grade 8 right now, going into their last year of junior high school, in Grade 9, and soon they'll be in high school, and it's absolutely clear that the special education system in Nova Scotia is also failing miserably many students and families. Could you comment on that?

MR. MUIR: What I know about 1995, and I'm going from memory, is that at that time the government closed a number of the facilities that did real good work with special needs people in the province. That group, including the Nova Scotia Youth Training Centre in Truro, and I believe there was one up in Sydney, and others that filled a real role for certain young people - not the really young people, but I do know that was done at that time.

I think the provisions for special needs children in the public schools of Nova Scotia are better than they have been at any time in the history that I can remember. Yes, I support what the honourable member says, there are some children and some parents for whom the school may not be providing the optimum type of support but, however, I can tell you that the department is acting on all 34 recommendations of that special education committee.

The school boards get $48 million in targeted special education funding that they have to use to support students with special needs. I'm told, when we talk to the school boards and look at how other monies are expended, the boards tell us that they put that much more again into special education, which is a good thing.

In this past year, the government has invested $2.5 million through Learning for Life to increase professional support services for students who are in schools. That means that

[Page 385]

students are having more special support, as opposed to special education - more personnel, more speech language pathologists and school psychologists, and more assistive technology. We also have the Reading Recovery Program throughout the system now, there is currently provision for a tuition agreement for school boards, and of course we've announced the Tuition Support Program that will be implemented this Fall.

I think every child in the schools is special and they all have different needs. We talk about special education, of course we're talking about children probably who need a little help to learn, or sometimes they need a lot of help to learn. It is a challenge for every teacher. I think you will find that teachers are probably better prepared to work with those children than they ever have been before. Do we have a way to go? Yes. Is this government committed to it? Yes. Have we put tangible and measurable commitments into place or initiatives into place in special education? The answer is yes.

MR. GRAHAM: Yes, of course, Madam Chairman, some small steps have been taken, but the real question is whether or not measurable change has happened, whether or not we have actually moved the yardstick in the way that Nova Scotians can appreciate that the special education system is actually making a difference.

I note with some interest the minister's comments about whether or not there should be facilities outside the existing school structures in, perhaps not unlike the segregated systems that existed before that provided more of a modified environment where there is learning, where there is an opportunity for integration that is more of a hybrid . . .

AN HON. MEMBER: And success.

MR. GRAHAM: Pardon me? And success, I agree with him with respect to that. If done poorly, the integration becomes dumping. You dump people out of a segregated system into an integrated process, you don't provide them with the resources they need and it becomes a worse situation for young people. Frankly, Mr. Minister, that's the situation that many families - not all families - find themselves in in Nova Scotia. They are trying to function with education assistants who are underpaid, under-appreciated, as we found out recently with respect to the Halifax Regional School Board and the negotiations that went on there where they reduced the work hours for many of the workers there, forcing highly dedicated and qualified workers out of the system in the first place. That's a result of funding.

There's a trickle-down effect that is related to the 2 per cent we were talking about earlier. If the school boards have the money, then they're able to provide the educational assistants with the kind of support that they need and they won't be left flapping around trying to desperately string things together and telling parents that your child may have extreme learning problems, but unless they represent a physical danger to themselves or to somebody else in the school, or unless they have trouble with their bodily functions, they're not going to receive an educational assistant. That is the reality of many parents across Nova

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Scotia - they are being told this isn't about integrating young people who have learning difficulties, it's only if you become a behaviour issue as a result of your learning difficulty that you receive an EA.

That's ridiculous and that's inconsistent with the spirit that the 1995 policy was put in place to address. It's something that I would be interested in following up on with the minister to explore whether or not there are ways - and with his officials - to find those transitions and to provide the level of resources that are truly needed to make sure that special education works in this province.

[5:45 p.m.]

Now, I was taken aback by the minister's comments that he is acting on the 34 recommendations that were put forward by the Special Education Implementation Review Committee. I'd just like to trace some of the history with respect to that committee. It was a committee, mainly of experts, that was called upon by this government to examine the issues of special education, report back on what are the needs, essentially, and where do we need to go. Their report was completed in June of 2001. All of that time they had been calling for a response from the government, one way or another. They were frustrated that they weren't receiving any kind of a response to the report that they put forward.

Almost two years later, on April 8^th of last year, a response came. The minister may recall the discussions. I know the former Minister of Education might recall the report having been tabled in the House. There wasn't much fanfare at all and there really wasn't much knowledge amongst many people that there was, in fact, a government response. As far as the committee being satisfied that their recommendations were being acted on, the minister might recall - certainly the former Minister of Education will recall - a press conference that was held on May 14^th down in the foyer of this building, where that committee and its representatives appeared and spoke about the response of the government, and they were anything but supportive - they were completely critical of the response that was provided.

A Ms. Carmel French, as I recall, was the main spokesperson for that organization, and it said that the government had completely ignored many of the recommendations that were put forward. In fact, as I recall it, they said that out of the $17.5 million - occasionally the government at that time was trying to claim that $35 million was going into special education, but that eventually was debunked because half of that was the result of reducing class sizes, which was a separate thing that they often took credit for.

With respect to the $17.5 million that really went into special education - and the minister referred to some of it - this committee was asking for a $20 million injection back in 2001. I'm not aware of whether or not there was an injection put in in 2001 or in 2002, but it does seem clear that in 2003, eventually $2.5 million of additional money was put in. This group said that of the $17.5 million that was spread over three years that was being put before

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Nova Scotians as the injection of this department and this government towards special education, $10 million of it did not address the recommendations they put forward in the first place.

So, Mr. Minister, I'm going to suggest to you that the people who put together the report that you referred to, that you suggested you're acting on, are a particularly unhappy group who feel that you've completely swung and missed the ball. There's no $20 million initial injection and most of the priorities that you're putting forward are inconsistent with the ones that they've already recommended.

MR. MUIR: I'll go back and simply state the government is acting on all 34 of those recommendations. There is no question that the committee, when they did the report - and I've been through this with other reports - they were looking for an immediate $20 million infusion, and that money was not available. However, the province has put into place its Learning for Life initiatives which are beginning to pay off.

He mentioned the $2.5 million that went in last year, which is topped-up by an additional $3 million this year, so there is now $5 million in that base funding and our intention is to keep increasing the base, to add more money to it next year. Madam Chairman, I guess probably I've yet to see a committee that, when they report, they wouldn't like to see everything implemented immediately. Most of us would too, and if you want to know the truth, I've been on those committees, on various types of committees and in various numbers of roles. People, you sit down and you talk with them and they understand that it's not possible to do everything immediately.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.

MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Well, Mr. Minister, you're a lot calmer man than I am, because I remember John MacEachern, I remember Robbie Harrison. I was a classroom teacher, and I remember what those guys did to the system. And to hear this member stand and piously go on at great length, it sticks in my throat. If you want a little bit of passion, I'll give you some passion. You want to talk about feeling about education? When did the Liberals finally discover education? Give me a break. They didn't do anything for the years they were in government. They gutted the system - they gutted it. You want negativity, I'll give you negativity. You want to remember John MacEachern and what he did and what we thought of the school system. Why did the Liberals get defeated? Because of what they did to the school system in this province. That should be on the record. Mr. Minister, I compliment you for your patience, and the lectures, and the reading from the materials - like, give me a break.

I remember Robbie Harrison - we would ask him, will you answer the question? Will you show the leadership? That's why we're here isn't it? We had to put up with that, we had to put up with the quality of those Ministers of Education and I know there are certain

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members of that caucus who are always making the comments about Ms. Purves and how much I miss her. Well, I'll tell you, she stood in this place on certain occasions and had her say, made some mistakes, but she had her say. Let's make the record clear. The Liberals have discovered education. Well, aren't I happy.

AN HON. MEMBERS: P3, P3, P3 . . .

MR. ESTABROOKS: No, don't get me started on that P3 nonsense. I can't believe that I even have to consider that. I remember so well how the member for Clare tried to, if you remember it, get an election opportunity when he took the person who was running there, Karen Willis-Duerden, for a photo op to a school at the Head of St. Margaret's Bay and they threw him off the school grounds - incidently, she did very poorly in that election. I mean if we're going to have photo ops when it comes to education . . .

AN HON. MEMBER: Who beat her?

MR. ESTABROOKS: I know who beat her. Let me tell you, I want you to know, Mr. Minister, I can congratulate you for your patience when I look at what happens, I hear all this stuff about phys. ed. teachers and I see some of the inadequacies that we had to put up with in this school system when the dollars weren't available, when the tough decisions weren't being made and I look at who was making those decisions. John MacEachern was a school teacher and I told him to his face one time, shame on you, You're the Minister of Education, you have the top job in this province, and you are showing absolutely no leadership - and to his credit he got out of Dodge before I ever was elected. What an opportunity it would have been to be able to be in this House with John MacEachern and have a comment or two from him on education.

Then he was succeeded, if you remember, by Robbie Harrison, Horton High's creator. He had all the answers. Harrison had all the answers, but you know he wasn't smart enough, like MacEachern, to get out of Dodge. He decided he could keep running. Well, we see what happened today - Mr. Harrison is no longer with us. I mean I want you to know that when it comes to Liberal Ministers of Education, their record is deplorable, and let that be on the record. Let that be on the record as a school teacher, as an Education Critic, and as somebody who is extremely frustrated as a parent through those years.

I can give you the example - I'm going to talk about a subject near and dear to my heart, Sir John A. Macdonald High School. I want to thank the member for Chester-St. Margaret's, finally the co-operation that we needed and the work that was done by this government, because the Liberals never did a thing to Sir John A. Macdonald High School. Never did a thing. Environmental concerns, problems with air quality. How do I know this? My daughter - God bless her, she has her mother's brains and her good looks - was the President of the Student Council. She would come home to the school administrator at the time at Brookside Junior High School, which I was, and say Dad, we have problems here. I

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would say to her well, you should write to the Minister of Education, you're the Student Council President. Invite them to come out to Sir John A. Macdonald. Invite them to see the problems first-hand. And guess what? Jane Purves was the first Minister of Education to come to Sir John A. Macdonald. So I have to put that on the record before I get into any of these more important questions.

You know, no matter where you are in this House you can't leave the sound effects, and I hear the member for Halifax Citadel waxing eloquent, as he is. Revisionism of history is not why we're in this House. We're in this House to address issues. We're in this House to address what we're doing now. I don't agree with everything the Minister of Education has done but, let me tell you, there has been more leadership from that administration, as weak as it might be on certain occasions, than anything from the Third Party as long as I followed politics in this province.

AN HON. MEMBER: I take exception to that.

MR. ESTABROOKS: You take all the exception you want, because if you want to have your time here and talk about Harrison and MacEachern, you fill your boots.

Let's have a look here at some of things that we have from history. Mr. Minister, you're aware that we are getting a new high school in this growing community. We have this new high school in this growing community, and in fact I want you to know that one of the parts of the community has no longer been attending that high school, they've gone off to Prospect Road. They come up the Prospect Road, and they go to Halifax West. A tough decision for a community, but it's a decision that has happened.

Sir John. A. Macdonald High School is a decision I privately and publically congratulated you on. Can you give us the time frame when you expect to see the first sod turned at that school?

MR. MUIR: Madam Chairman, the school should open in September 2006 - we're trying to go back from that, so I expect you'll see a sod turned before the end of this year.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Considering that good news announcement and how it was done in that particular day, I thank you for allowing me as an Opposition member to be part of this.

Would you like me to wind down debate? You're giving me hand signals - am I adjourning it? You want me to go deeper? She wants two more minutes.

I've been encouraged to not go back to the past. I had the new members say to me not to bring that stuff up, let's forget all that. Well guess who doesn't forget it - not just the school teachers, but the voters. The voters don't forget it. Would they trust this crowd with

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the education system in this province again? Would they? Never. I know it for a fact. I asked the people on the doorsteps. I saw the results come in. People said to me on so many occasions, why did so many people in Timberlea-Prospect vote for the member, the NDP? The answer is very simple. They didn't want that Liberal guy back. He was part of their government and they had to run a retread guy again against us. Shame on them, Mr. Holland is not who they wanted.

I believe it's 6:00 p.m., so I will move to adjourn the debate.

[6:00 p.m. The committee recessed.]

[6:30 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, would you please call the estimates of the Minister of Education.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The estimates for the Minister of Education, and I recognize the honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.

MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Mr. Minister, it's been a pleasure speaking to you for the past number of hours, and I would like to thank you for your time.

MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, how much time is left in the estimates this evening?

MR. CHAIRMAN: There's approximately 40 minutes.

MR. MUIR: Do you want to go to David tonight or, I have some things I would like to say, but I will defer to what you folks want to do.

AN HON. MEMBER: Wrap it up.

MR. MUIR: Okay, thank you. I will run the time out, then.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister, it's over at 7:18 p.m.

MR. MUIR: There are a number of things, Mr. Chairman, that I would like to say in winding down this debate. What I would like to do, first of all, is to thank the members from across the House who've made this 16 hours such an interesting experience. This reminded me, a little bit of when I was occupying another portfolio. I would like to thank my staff, not only the Executive Director of the Corporate Section and the Deputy Minister for being here, but also I have staff in the balcony: Mr. Ben McIntyre, one of the financial experts who has

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helped me considerably - trying to compose himself ; and I see up there I have Ann Power, who visited with us today, the person who does most of the work or at least is the head of the Special Education section; Susan Crandall is up there today because I'm going to say some things in governance and she's very much a part of that process; of course my own Sue McKeage, who is the Director of Communications, and is not only putting up with me in my role as Minister of Education, but has endured me for three years when I was in the Health Department.

AN HON. MEMBER: A saint, a saint.

MR. MUIR: A saint. Mr. Chairman, what I would like is really to say thank you to staff in the Department of Education. They do a tremendous amount of work to get ready for the estimates process. I don't know how many hours go into it, but the books that we get to help us - in the case of the estimates, my book is like that. They have even more detailed knowledge than I have. Of course, for Question Period, Sue and her staff, along with others, prepare us for that, too.

Mr. Chairman, I want to say, again, thank you to staff for all of their assistance in helping me prepare for this process, and also for their ongoing assistance as we go through it. Every once in a while you see me look up in the balcony or look from side to side, and it is for two reasons: one, so I don't have to look at the people across the floor; and secondly, I do get some useful interventions from that.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to rise on a matter that arose in this House on April 29^th, during a second reading debate on Bill No. 62, the Financial Measures Act. The matter in question refers to Clause 16 of that bill, which is to provide for the transition of the present pilot district school boards in the Strait, South Shore, and Tri-County Regional School Boards status this Summer. The honourable member for Halifax Fairview noted that the information about the experience with the pilot project has not been widely publicized, and without such information it's more difficult to determine whether what is proposed in Bill No. 62 is in fact the right thing to do. He suggested that it might be useful for the responsible minister to stand up and address these concerns that the member raised. As Minister of Education, I'm pleased to provide the information that I think will be useful on this point.

Mr. Chairman, the members of this House will recall that the pilot project was put in place in Spring 2000 to address concerns that existed about the former Southwest Regional School Board. Two pilot district educational school boards were established in the area, which is now called the South Shore and Tri-County. Matters of non-educational service provision, including financing, human resources, facilities and transportation, were assigned to one service provider, headed by a chief executive officer who reports to the government. The pilot expires upon the next regular school board elections, in October 2004.

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The 2000 legislation provided that at least eight months before the pilot expired there would be an evaluation of the pilot structure, the report of which would be made public. In the Fall of 2001, Dr. Colin Dodds was appointed to chair a three-person independent panel to conduct the evaluation, and that report was made public in January 2002. It remains on the department's Web site to this day. I can tell you, Mr. Chairman, that was the report I tabled earlier today, and it's available to all members.

It recommended changes to improve the operation of the pilots, many of which were accepted by the department and implemented. These were documented in the department's response to the Dodds' report, which was also made public. So government has fulfilled its statutory obligation in the Act, and that information is public information. In the meantime, Mr. Chairman, the pilot model was extended to the Strait in April 2002. Later that year it was decided to assess all three pilots to determine whether the structure had achieved its intended purpose, and those were to enable the district school board to focus more closely on education and whether regional service provision enabled greater efficiency and accountability for dollars spent.

This was done to help identify what did and did not work well as a basis for decisions on what should replace the pilot structure when it expires later this year. This assessment, conducted by senior staff of the Department of Education, in consultation with the boards, occurred over the calendar year 2003. Two full consultation meetings were held with each pilot district school board and with their senior staff. There were ample opportunities for elected board members to have input to the drafts of the report.

The final report went to the affected school boards and the Nova Scotia School Boards Association in March 2004, after all the input had been received. It was not the subject of a formal press release, as it was considered to be primarily of internal interest. However, Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased to table the report here today, with copies for the Education Critics - and that is the one I did table. The report includes a number of recommendations that came from the elected board members about what they wanted to see, regardless of the structure after 2004. They wanted greater control and input to the services being provided the boards, more direct control over HR functions and financial expenditures made on their behalf, and they also wanted better support for any transition, including communications, professional development and advisory supports.

The relevant portions of Bill No. 62 take into consideration those stated needs. The report found that the structure itself was workable, although somewhat cumbersome. All pilot district boards stated they spend more time on educational matters. Problems remained in regional service delivery, and these were found to really depend on the degree of determination and willingness of the participants to make whatever structure there work most effectively.

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For those reasons it was decided that the existing regional pilot district school boards should become regional boards, the same as other boards in Nova Scotia, based on a carefully planned transition to be supported by my department. We have been and will continue to work with the pilot district boards to this end. In summary, this approach respects the recommendations of the affected board members and will fulfill the pilot board's long-standing wish to have the same powers and responsibilities as other regional school boards in Nova Scotia.

Mr. Chairman, I realize this has been somewhat lengthy; however, I trust it's been a little bit helpful for my honourable colleagues on both sides of the House to understand what is being proposed in Clause 16 of Bill No. 62, and to understand clearly that what is being proposed will be well-supported to ensure that it is in the best interests of education and of students in the Strait and Southwest portions of this province.

Mr. Chairman, as I said earlier, I would like to thank the honourable members opposite for their questions and for their interventions and for their interest in the quality of education that is being provided in the public school system, in the university system, in the community college system and, the other partner, the private trade schools of our province. This year's estimates debate on Education did give me the opportunity to highlight some of the positive steps we are taking in education in this province, along with our partners, the teachers, the parents, the school boards and others, to help all children succeed.

There is also a great deal of good work that wasn't raised for discussion. I want to reiterate that education is a priority of this government. There is more money being invested in education this year compared to last and when we take a look at the comparison to when we came to government, there is significantly more money being invested in education - which is good. Our primary focus in the public schools continues to be on helping students improve their skills and abilities in reading, writing and math and there will be more programs for children and more resources for teachers in 2004-05. We have put $1 million additional books into the classrooms of this province and next year there will even be more books for students and professional development for teachers.

What I would like to recite at this particular time, Mr. Chairman, is that I have mentioned a couple of times in response to questions and answers and other thoughts that I've had the opportunity to put on the floor of this House, that I was at Redcliff Middle School, which is in the riding of my good friend, the member for Colchester North, and it's a middle school that has students in there I guess from probably Grade 4 to Grade 8, or Grade 4 to Grade 7. It's a newer school, I suppose less than 10 years old, but it has a tremendous focus on literacy and I happened to have the opportunity to participate in a minor way in their literacy awards presentations. It was very, very interesting to do that.

What I particularly wanted to tell you was not about the students who won prizes and the great work that the teachers and the parents are doing there in terms of literacy, but a

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representative of the Scholastic book company was there. Scholastic donated to that school 650 novels or pieces of reading material for the students of that school. Now, the interesting thing was, I was there when the Scholastic rep made the presentation to the school and all the students thought it was books for the school but, you know, on Friday every student in that school got a book to take home for their own. This is the type of thing that goes on in Redcliff and I just want to acknowledge with thanks. We talk about commercialism of education and the companies that support education, but I wanted to recognize the Scholastic book company for doing that for the students at Redcliff and I expect if they did it at Redcliff, they have done it in other schools, too, a very good thing. So thank you to the Scholastic book company.

Mr. Chairman, as I said, there will be more programs for children and more resources for teachers in 2004-05. There will be more books for students and professional development for teachers and we have secured $1 million to help students who didn't meet expectations in their literacy assessments.

Mr. Chairman, smaller class sizes, more support for children with special needs, including a tuition support program, are other examples of the work we're doing with our partners in education to be sure students learn and learn well. We're also looking forward to working on a new funding formula for school boards which I've mentioned in here two or three times and we will also continue to work with our partners in the post-secondary sector. Our commitment to the Nova Scotia Community College growth plan continues and our skills agenda remains a priority.

Anyway, Mr. Chairman, there are many exciting opportunities underway in education and, at the same time, we appreciate that there will be some challenges. We have worked hard to increase education funding as much as possible this year, but understand that school boards will still face some pressures. We will all continue to face increasing costs in a fiscal environment with limited resources. In response, the department will continue to work with our partners to carefully manage all of our resources to ensure that we get our work done and done well. I'm confident that by working with teachers, parents, school boards, the post-secondary sector, our industry partners and others, we will continue to provide and expand quality education programs and services. I'm very much looking forward to the year ahead as we continue to work with our partners to implement our Learning for Life plan and many other initiatives to help children, youth and adults grow towards their full potential right here in Nova Scotia.

[6:45 p.m.]

Mr. Chairman, these are my closing comments, but just before sitting down, I would like to table these documents which are in response to questions that have come in and, therefore, I move the estimates for the Department of Education.

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Resolution E4 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $206,531,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of Assistance to Universities, Department of Education, pursuant to the Estimate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolutions stand?

The resolutions stand.

The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, would you please call the estimates of the Minister of Community Services.

Resolution E2 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $694,145,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Community Services, pursuant to the Estimate and the business plan of the Nova Scotia Housing Development Corporation be approved.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I will recognize the honourable Minister of Community Services for opening comments.

HON. DAVID MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I very much enjoyed hearing the debate thus far on the Department of Education, but I would also say that I'm very pleased to be up here speaking this evening so that when I'm done, the critics from the opposite Parties will have a chance to make full use of the four hours tomorrow.

I am here to present the information and a few opening comments on the department and some of the initiatives that have gone on in the last year and which we look forward to pursuing in the 2004-05 fiscal year in our efforts to support the work of some of the more vulnerable in our society here in Nova Scotia.

There are approximately 1,000 staff in 50 sites across this province working in partnership, and I want to stress that, with community agencies and other service providers because the thing that is unique about Community Services is that, perhaps unlike some of the other line departments, a lot of the services that are provided under the name of Community Services, in fact, are services that are actually delivered by non-profit organizations and other organizations in the community, but funded by the Department of Community Services and, as such, it gives us a unique relationship with them, one that I very much enjoy as minister and I certainly always look forward to the opportunity to meeting with our community partners. Often they're made up of non-profit boards and, quite often, some of the most marvellous people in the community end up on those boards.

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Community Services provides a broad range of programs that contribute to better futures for our children and families, persons with disabilities, seniors and, indeed, communities throughout all of Nova Scotia. These programs play a significant role in furthering basically the overall health and well-being of Nova Scotians and especially vulnerable Nova Scotians or Nova Scotians who may be, for circumstances beyond their control, just at a difficult time in their life.

Programs are grouped into four areas to meet the needs of Nova Scotians. Our Community Supports for Adults is there to assist adults with intellectual disabilities. They may be mental health consumers who are past the acute care part of their treatment and some, but in a lesser part, with physical disabilities or some combination of those three.

Employment Support and Income Assistance. This is the new program that has replaced the former municipal social assistance programs which were uploaded to the province some years ago and the old Family Benefits Program. This was integrated on August 1, 2001 into the Employment Support and Income Assistance Program and a very positive initiative as it first of all standardized the rates right across the province but also brought a balance to the program: where the employment support to try to empower our clients to make the most of their abilities and to pursue careers where possible; and income assistance to support them until they are able to get on their feet and make it on their own.

Family and Children's Services - again, a lot of these services are provided by childrens' aid societies. There are 14 spread throughout the province, plus there are six branch offices which provide that service. Together in Nova Scotia, we have something that's unique - it's a mixed delivery model and we are one of the last in the country to have such a model.

Housing Services - which provides affordable housing to lower income Nova Scotians, also delivers a number of other housing grants.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Honourable minister, would you allow some time for an introduction?

MR. MORSE: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.

MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Mr. Minister, I thank you for giving me a quick moment. In the west gallery we have some distinguished visitors - 22 cubs and scouts from the 2^nd Hatchet Lake Cubs and Scouts. I have the privilege of representing the Prospect Road. They are here with their leaders: Richard Dyke, Eleanor Turner, Anne Flemming, Steve Casely and Sandy Fawson and parents. I would ask the cubs and scouts to stand and receive the recognition of the House. (Applause)

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MR. CHAIRMAN: Indeed, welcome from all the members here. I recognize the honourable Minister of Community Services.

MR. MORSE: Yes and I too extend that greeting to the honourable member's cubs and scouts from his constituency. I can tell you that of all my five boys, at least for some point in time, each and every one of them was involved in it. Although one of them was only for a few sessions because when he was in beavers they told him that the motto was, share, share, share and he went to school and one of the other children at the school knew this was the model and he had a Joe Louis or something and the other child was interested in having the Joe Louis. He pointed out that he was a beaver and it was up to him to share, so he gave him the Joe Louis and unfortunately that ended his time in beavers. But, the others stuck it out for a much longer period of time and it was of great benefit to them.

Housing Services - again, Housing Services provides public housing in some cases for a low-income Nova Scotians. A lot of the delivery is on a rent-to-income model where basically between 25 and 30 per cent of the tenants' gross income is charged as rent. It brings their shelter component within reason. It is deemed that 30 per cent is the cut-off for affordable housing. When a family is paying more than 30 per cent for affordable housing, it is deemed that they have a problem. So, Housing Services rights that, regardless of the residents' income, we know that the numbers will work if they're in public housing.

We also have rent supplements which is not unlike the portable child care subsidies in that what we do here with about 800 Nova Scotians is that they go out, they pick the apartment and we make up the difference to bring their rent in line with the means that they have to pay. That is also a very effective method of doing this.

While I'm speaking of rent supplements, and because I know it's going to come up in the estimates, I think it's very important to point out that this has been judged by the C.D. Howe Institute as being 85 per cent efficient in terms of addressing the provision of affordable housing whereas the public housing model comes in at about 37 per cent. I personally am pleased to have both, but I think it's important to recognize that by giving people choice, it quite often allows for a better long-term outcome.

In addition to that, I want to say that there is additional money in this year's budget to address the province's commitment to the Affordable Housing Program. It's another $1.65 million - a portion of that is going to go for rent supplement. I'm very pleased to enhance that part of the program, but there is also a very important reason to do it in this year because the federal government has recognized that the rent supplement, the discount at present value of the rent supplement, can be used to draw down a comparable amount of capital from the Affordable Housing Program.

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As an example, $500,000 in rent supplement would almost equal the equivalent of $5 million in capital. So that certainly means that we'll have the means to move ahead quickly this year as the request for proposals come in to the department as a result of our recent announcement for more affordable housing units, rental units. There are other programs that are delivered under housing services.

Together, staff in these programs work with service providers and community partners to ensure high quality child care, residential support for adults with disabilities, employment and income support for people in transition and other services to help ensure all Nova Scotians have a chance to reach their full potential - something that I know that all Parties can agree on.

I would like to take this opportunity to review some highlights from the last year, if I may, and to speak about some of the initiatives for the coming year. In a time of many competing priorities, I'm pleased the province has made a significant investment in the social service system by increasing the department's budget by close to $30 million. We look forward to an exciting and challenging year, one that holds opportunities to improve social service programs for families and Nova Scotians in need. Our focus in the year ahead will be protecting what Nova Scotians value - a secure, predictable and sustainable social service system that is responsible and available to Nova Scotians when and where they need it.

The Department of Community Services provides a wide range of housing supports to Nova Scotians. These services are designed to help low-income Nova Scotians become homeowners, repair their homes so that they can stay in them longer and make adaptations that make their homes more accessible. Services provided include loan and mortgage programs - in this case it could be that a family has no down payment and if their income is of a modest nature, the department can, in some instance, make a 100 per cent mortgage advance to them. Grants for repairs, which is primarily under the rural residential assistance program and tax rebates for senior homeowners - something I would suggest I found to be very important in my own constituency and for any members that have not made their constituents aware of this, this is for seniors that are on the Guaranteed Income Supplement. We do have a list of those who are on the Guaranteed Income Supplement, but at the department we have no way of knowing whether they're a homeowner and paying taxes.

I can tell you that, in a recent constituency newsletter that I put out in Kings South, I've never had such an uptake on an article. For those of you who are thinking about your next constituency newsletter, it's very important assist for those seniors that might qualify. It's a very simple process once we know that they own their own homes - it's just a question of verifying with the department whether they're on Guaranteed Income Supplement, the application process is quite simple.

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[7:00 p.m.]

Social housing services are also provided in coordination with housing authorities around the province. Over 12,000 seniors and family units are available across the province. In 2004-05, we are affirming our spending commitments on these existing housing and repair programs. The province is also partnering with the federal government on an affordable housing program for low-income Nova Scotians which I mentioned before. I would suggest the rent subsidy approach which we are taking for our share allows us to better target low-income Nova Scotians, but we certainly welcome the federal government's participation in providing capital which will likely end up in more public housing stock.

It is expected that between 850 and 1,500 affordable housing units will be created or renovated under this $37.26 million affordable housing agreement by 2007. The government of Canada through Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation is contributing half, which is $18.63 million, and these funds are being matched by the province and other housing partners as part of a larger strategy to provide a whole range of housing options for Nova Scotians and I hope the members opposite, the critics will have a chance to inquire and to further embellish those statements. I know that they know more about it, and perhaps it would be a good topic as they use their time.

Several announcements have already been made under this agreement. The first project of course was the 15-unit townhouse complex in the Annapolis Valley completed last Fall, and it was also good to see that the Town of Middleton participated in this in a financial manner of approximately $62,500. It was followed by the construction of six semi-detached homes in Halifax, under the New Home Ownership Program, and that's on Creighton- Gerrish. I can tell you from my apartment in the morning while I'm waiting for the elevator to come that it does my heart good to see the construction going on there and I know that there are going to be six families that are going to be very pleased to own their own homes, and my hope is that perhaps they will have come from public housing stock, and that will free up another six units for Nova Scotians in need of affordable housing.

Other homes across the province will receive repairs under the home preservation program, in addition, funding will be available for new rental housing based on a multi-year formula that ensures long-term affordability and as I mentioned before, that will be an enhanced provincial rent supplement program. This translates into a guaranteed rent supplement for 10 years, ensuring that housing support is reaching those who need it most, low-income Nova Scotians.

In early childhood development, we'll be investing in programs to enhance the lives of young children, and that continues to be a priority. I'm very pleased to see the federal government's initiatives in this area, I want to acknowledge Minister Jane Stewart, who I found to a commendable minister during my time in working with her. I think that she did a lot for enhancing programs for children and I wish her well in her new pursuits, which I think

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take her overseas. We are committed to enhancing and expanding programs under the Early Childhood Development Initiative. Strengthening services for families with children and providing supports for young children will help create healthy and strong children tomorrow and future prosperity for this province.

In 2004-05 support will continue for programs that encourage a healthy childhood development and quality child care. Over the next year we will once again increase the number of subsidized child care spaces; enhance parent education programs provided through our family resource centres; work with the Department of Health in expanding the Home Visiting Program for parents with children under three years of age; further develop inclusion initiatives for children with special needs, a very important part of our service delivery; and expand the Early Language and Learning Program.

In 2004-05, low-income families will benefit from a $1.3 million increase to the child care subsidy budget. That budget has already been partially implemented. $400,000 of that is in with the 50 cents per day increase in the subsidy for subsidized child care. There is another $900,000 which has been committed to this, and that will follow a subsidy review which was in fact asked by the sector, and we very much look forward to getting that in the next couple of months, resource have been invested in that to expedite the process. These subsidies enable families to access quality child care while pursuing their education, maintaining employment, or trying to pursue a job to enter the workforce. The department is reviewing how subsidies are allocated and to determine the best way to support quality child care across the province. To date close to $40 million has been invested in the Early Childhood Development Initiative, and again I want to acknowledge Minister Stewart's efforts in that area.

Community Supports for Adults. In this program - the budget will receive a $10.3 million boost in 2004-05. This is a very important program as it helps about 4,500 Nova Scotians with intellectual disabilities, or long-term mental illness live in the community. As I mentioned before, a very small fraction also have physical disabilities or may have any combination of those three challenges. Since 2000, there has been an almost $50 million increase in this program to support the clients and the families served by this program. $1million of this years additional funding will help to launch a revamped Community Supports for Adult's Program.

This is good news, because when we started the Community Supports for Adults renewal initiative, the caveat was that it had to be done withing this existing fiscal envelope. I'm very pleased that the government has seen fit to add $1million in this area and shorten the waiting list for Nova Scotians with disabilities and their families to speed up their acquisition of the appropriate supports. A wide-ranging review of this program began in December of 2002. The review was addressing the evolving needs of the people served by the program as well as a growing demand for these services.

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In March 2004, the department released its discussion paper reflecting the ideas and research gathered during the review period. The discussion paper includes a review of best practices and research in a number of key areas, such as funding, assessment tools, policy, licensing, and consumer supports. Having released this discussion paper I want to make it very clear that while a tremendous amount of collaboration went into this and work and research outside of the province, public feedback is ultimately the most important part of this review process.

We're very pleased by the interest that's shown by our clients, their families, the service providers, and the other organizations and advocacy groups that care so much about the people that we try to serve with the Community Supports for Adults Programs. Program representatives have met with more than 50 community organizations, advocacy groups and service providers across the province to produce the discussion paper. Client focus groups were also held to make sure Nova Scotians with disabilities had meaningful opportunities to share their thoughts in the program. Public feedback on the CSA discussion paper will be reviewed to determine the scope and type of services that Nova Scotians want to see in this renewed program.

Other supports to children and families include, over the next year, we will also examine our adoption program. This is something that I know is near and dear to the parents that aspire to adopt children, or for any children out there that are waiting for that family to step forward. We want to make sure that Nova Scotian children who cannot live with their birth families have every opportunity to become part of a loving adoptive family. There are some matters there that are, I would say, obstacles to adoption. We hope that this dialogue will be constructive and will bring forward a new adoption program that will start to shrink the list of adoptable children in this province providing them what every child deserves, which is their own family.

In the area of Employment Support and Income Assistance, since 1999-2000, client caseloads have declined 16 per cent, from 38,000 to 32,000. At the same time, total program expenditures have remained relatively the same during this period, resulting in an increased investment to our clients something that I'm very pleased that we've been able to deliver as a government, and I would suggest that in many cases clients are much better off than they were under the split municipal Social Assistance Program and the Family Benefits Program.

It's also important to note that the number of caseworkers, that being 235, in the Income Assistance component of the system has remained the same, resulting in improved service for clients. That will have improved the ratio between the caseworkers and the clients. Anything that you can do to provide more support for the clients is going to help empower them, and it's very important for them to have that feeling of connectivity with their caseworker.

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More than 10,000 clients were assisted by our employment supports during the last fiscal year. Again, in my opening comments, I made reference to the importance of the employment support and income assistance dual approach to assisting our clients who are on this program: 43 per cent of these people participated in educational or training programs; and 31 per cent began employment as a result of these supports.

Mr. Chairman, people in Nova Scotia want to work, and we are providing the support they need to become self-sufficient, such as they are able. As I have travelled about and met people who are either on assistance and working their way off, or perhaps those who have been on assistance and are so proud that they've worked their way off, and spoken with caseworkers who used to be frustrated by the obstacles that prevented clients from working their way off the system and into employment, I can tell you that I am very pleased with the comments coming from them. We have not solved all the problems, but I think, by and large, this was a landmark piece of legislation, and that the province is a much better place for it, because these people who wanted to make a contribution are now able to make that contribution. That is part of the reason why we're setting record employment numbers in the province, an important first step to what ultimately, we hope, will develop into meaningful careers.

It's also important to note that 75 per cent of clients need only a portion of the income assistance that is available to them to supplement their main source of income, such as employment, or they may be on pension. Over $20 million in additional wages is now being earned by clients in the Employment Support and Income Assistance Program, since it started on August 1, 2001. That's a good development - it's good for the clients, it's good for the community, and it's good for the province.

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to have provided these highlights from the Department of Community Services. I was going to speak on a little longer, but I have been joined by Clem Hennebury, who is the proverbial right-hand person, but today he is going to be my left-hand person. Since Clem has come here, if the member opposite is prepared to stand up and wants to maybe make some opening statements, I would just say that over the coming year we will continue to work with other levels of government, our community partners and our clients, and I very much look forward to the questions and comments from the Opposition Critics and look forward to the next few hours.

[7:15 p.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Dartmouth South-Portland Valley.

MS. MARILYN MORE: Mr. Chairman, I just want to ask the minister, in the 2001-02 accountability report you stated that 90 per cent of the department's social services to Nova Scotians in need were legislated, which means that if an individual qualifies for a service, it must be provided. Is that figure still accurate?

[Page 403]

MR. MORSE: We would estimate that that would still be a fair assessment, yes.

MS. MORE: I'm just wondering, have you been able to submit your 2004-05 business plan yet?

MR. MORSE: Yes.

MS. MORE: Was it the brief reference in the combined business report?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Honourable minister, did you hear the question? Perhaps the honourable member could repeat the question.

MS. MORE: Certainly, there was a business plan submitted by the government that included excerpts that appeared to be excerpts from the various department business plans, is that what you're referring to?

MR. MORSE: Honourable member, I have seen the business plan and passed it on for distribution. If it has not been made public, I apologize for the former answer. The plan has been done and we will just double-check to make sure that, in fact, the entire plan has been made public. I know of what you speak - you're talking about the government business plan with the excerpts.

MS. MORE: It would be very useful to have that. I haven't seen it in any of the publications that came to me, so certainly if you could make a copy available, I would really appreciate it.

I think my last question this evening is going to be on what impact will the new Canada Social Transfer have on funding available to your department. I understand that it came into effect April 1^st, and the previous social transfer did have some conditions with it, things like the right to claim welfare, the right to adequate income, the right to assistance, and I'm just wondering if the new social transfer funding has similar principles or criteria around it.

MR. MORSE: I believe the honourable member is referring to the Canada Health and Social Transfer and I wonder if that's a question that would be better answered by the Minister of Finance, because they are the ones who receive the transfer and it flows through Finance to the various destination departments.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Perhaps the honourable member could deal with that question tomorrow.

[Page 404]

The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, I move the committee do now rise, report considerable progress and beg leave to sit on a future day.

[7:20 p.m. The committee rose.]