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HALIFAX, THURSDAY, APRIL 17, 2003

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY

9:07 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. William Dooks

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, would you please call the estimates of the Minister of Education.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We will continue with the estimates for the Department of Education. We're just going to pause for a second while the minister takes his seat and staff are seated. In saying that, we'll be recognizing the NDP caucus with 17 minutes in turn. I believe that will be the member for Timberlea-Prospect.

The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.

MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, I welcome these few moments that I have again this morning with the Minister of Education. I welcome the Education Minister and his staff who are with him this morning.

I'd like to continue the conversation which we were having when we adjourned last. I want to draw the minister's attention - I actually believe it's a topic that the minister and I agree on. As two teachers from a previous career, I'd like to turn to the topic of what makes an effective school. In fact, I do know that the Nova Scotia Teachers Union has issued an invitation, I hope to all members, but to me as the critic for the NDP, to an event on May 8^th at the Holiday Inn on Wyse Road at which time we'll be looking at what makes an effective school.

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Mr. Minister, we're all wanting, in all of our communities, to have effective schools, to have schools that have a positive PR, to have schools that the kids look forward to going to, to have schools that the parents are saying that the community they are fortunate enough to live in has a good school; it's environmentally safe, it's got accountable teachers, it is a good school.

Recently there was the much-ballyhooed publication of the AIMS group about ranking of schools. Mr. Minister, do you see any productive use of ranking schools in this province?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Education.

HON. ANGUS MACISAAC: I thank the honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect for his question and his obvious concern about effective schools. The concept of ranking schools is one that we need as a society, I believe, to weigh very, very carefully where we're going when we speak about doing that. There are a number of factors that need to be taken into consideration and one of them is the fact that in our province for the most part we don't have a choice with respect to where our students attend school. We have a publicly-funded school system and there is only the one public school in most of our communities, which is available to the students.

When you get into the concept of ranking, you're saying that somebody is number one and you're saying that somebody is last when you're doing that. That's not a very effective indicator at best because of all of the components, some of which the honourable member referenced, that go into making an effective school. The greatest concern is the fact that there isn't an alternative. We believe that the emphasis should be placed on schools being able to do an effective evaluation of their own performance relative to agreed-upon objectives that reflect first of all the interests of the curriculum of the Department of Education, but also the interests of the community in which the school is located.

We believe that we should be working towards creating an effective evaluation of schools so that they can measure their own performance with respect to achieving stated objectives that they have for themselves. I believe that approach would be far more constructive than doing a ranking. The ranking has become a recent phenomenon within this country, I believe, because of the high-profile ranking that Maclean's gets now as a result of the ranking of the universities.

There's a fundamental difference (Interruption) Well, that's not my purpose today to get into that, but temporarily (Interruption) Yes and you were first for some period of time and no doubt you'll work very hard at trying to replace St. F.X. as number one. We will work very hard at making sure that you don't succeed for some time. But that's not my point today.

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My point is, as you have indicated, there are choices for students when it comes to universities. Students can look right across the country and decide upon a university that has strengths with respect to a particular discipline that a student may be interested in, a university that has unique characteristics relative to the student population, whether they want to be involved with a large university with a large student population or whether they want to be in a smaller area. They have the choice of a major metro centre within the country or something rural. They, obviously, have the opportunity of evaluating which school would give them the best opportunity for post-graduate work.

Those are not issues when it comes to the public schools. So we believe that we need to give to the public schools the capacity to be able to focus on their own performance relative to their objectives within the community as well as the objectives set out by the Department of Education for those schools.

[9:15 a.m.]

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you, Mr. Minister, for that reply. I share the same concerns when it comes to ranking public schools, particularly when we look at the factor that size was not involved and I think it's truly unfair to rank some of the big high schools, in particular, against some of the smaller ones. In addition, there are other concerns and I want this for the record. I do hope that the Nova Scotia Teachers Union makes the opportunity available to the AIMS group to go to this session on what makes an effective school on May 8^th over at the Holiday Inn in Dartmouth. I think they would have much to learn from it.

I'll say to the member for Truro-Bible Hill, I'm on record and I'm proud to say that when I took kids around this province to schools, when we walked into Cobequid Educational Centre in Truro, we knew we were in one of the top-ranked schools in our opinion. But when the AIMS group says what difference does it make if you've never been in the gymnasium of the school, I think anybody who's ever visited the home of the Cougars knows what we're talking about. If they've ever been to one of their football games, if they've ever seen their drama productions - that's what we aim for in this province. That's why it would be very important for this group in future to look at other factors when it comes to making rankings of schools and high schools across this province.

I want to turn to a topic that concerns me and that's pilot projects, pilot projects and how many of them you have, but there is one pilot project I've got to get out of the way. I know I've just made eye contact with the Deputy Minister of Education and I don't mean to be - well, yes, I do mean to be a little sarcastic. I'm going to talk about a line item that I do not find there. This is a pilot project when we have to take Cougar helicopters or we have to take DNR helicopters - where are the monies allocated for the department's use of helicopters, in particular the deputy minister's trips around the province? I don't see that in any of the education items.

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MR. MACISAAC: I guess it was only a matter of time when I would expect the honourable member to get to this topic. You will not find a specific line item in the budget relative to types of travel. Rather, you will find it under expenses of the deputy minister's office or of the facilities branch office. There are times when time efficiency is significant relative to being able to address a number of issues.

For instance, on one occasion when a Department of Natural Resources helicopter was used, the deputy minister was able to visit four schools and deal with four separate capital issues concerning those schools in the province, he was able to do that in a portion of a single day. On that day he was in his office in the morning and he was in his office at the end of the day but, in addition, he was also able to visit those four facilities at various places in the province. That, we believe, is an efficient use of time, rather than having mileage be paid, having additional meals be paid, overnight accommodation, time away from the office.

So there is a balance, and when it is appropriate to be efficient with respect to travel, we choose to be efficient, and when it is appropriate to use a ground mode of transport, we use a ground mode of transport. Time has value and we measure carefully the value of that time in making decisions relative to transportation.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I'm trying to make some sense out of travel when it comes to deputy ministers. It's a concern, it's a comparative comment. I think it's one that's worthwhile. I know that this deputy minister conscientiously makes his way from one issue to another around this province, but I want to make it clear that the deputy minister has $18,348.25, according to Page 43 of the Supplement to the Public Accounts, and I would assume that the travel that's included there is strictly by motor vehicle. If that's not the case, could you clarify that for me? I would like to know, what portion of that $18,000 can be attributed to the use of the helicopter way of travelling around the province? That's Page 43 of the Supplement to the Public Accounts.

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, these are all items for which the deputy minister has been reimbursed for travel to various associations or groups which we belong to by virtue of our participation in national associations throughout the country. I can illustrate a number of these. For instance, on April 27 to May 2, 2002, there is the Canadian Association for the Practical Study of Law in Education Conference. (Interruptions) Not to that one, because it was held in Vancouver. It would have required several refuellings along the way.

That, I presume, was by one of our national carriers, which at that time was probably only one. To travel to Vancouver, you can appreciate, with the prices that we're forced to pay to Air Canada, that was a significant amount of money, $1,416. That was considerably more efficient than driving to Vancouver than, indeed, taking the train to Vancouver - well, perhaps we could have strapped the helicopter on the flatbed of a train and made the trip, if that were the preferred method of transport, but it was not deemed appropriate at that time.

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There is Halifax-Ottawa-Toronto for a meeting with Canadian Heritage in Ottawa and participating in meetings in Toronto to discuss student assistance, a topic which we hear considerably about from the members of the committee. That conference and the travel there was in the amount of $1,100. There is a trip to the Atlantic Veterinary College in P.E.I., relative to its operations. A financial system analysis meeting that was held in Fredericton, that was an amount of $600. There is the provincial-territorial meeting to discuss on-line learning issues and initiatives, and that is an important topic when it comes to alternatives relative to declining student population. We need to be in the forefront of that. The travel cost for that was $1,725.

There is a meeting with the New Brunswick Deputy Minister of Education in Fredericton, and that was $525. There was a meeting in Moncton. There is the Atlantic Provinces Education Foundation meeting, $400, that was in August. They are trips of that nature, Mr. Chairman. They are expenses for which the deputy minister was reimbursed.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Time has expired for the NDP caucus, and I would like to recognize the Liberal caucus.

The honourable member for Glace Bay has the floor. The time is 9:26 a.m., one hour in turn.

MR. DAVID WILSON: Mr. Chairman, I read with great interest, in the Halifax Herald recently that there was, at the Legislature's Public Accounts Committee meeting the other day, a rather serious accusation that was made during that meeting. One, indeed, that the whole process of a priority list for schools to be replaced or renovated, as was quoted in the article, the process of compiling that list is prone to politics, which is not a shocking allegation but an accusation or an allegation nonetheless. So I would like to take this opportunity this morning to give the minister a chance before this House to clear the air, so to speak, and to convince us, once and for all, that, indeed, perhaps politics doesn't play a part in compiling such a list. I intend to ask him, over the next little while, a series of questions that will hopefully be answered in detail and in full, concerning the priority list of schools to replace or to renovate.

It's a secret list, Mr. Chairman, right now. Only a few people, I guess, have access to it. I'm rather worried, as the critics involved the other day in the Legislature's Public Accounts Committee meeting were worried as well, that perhaps this list will be used for political purposes because of the fact that we seem to be coming very close to the date for an election in this province. As you know, this government and in particular the Education Department, the minister, the minister before him have had close to four years now to deal with school construction, school maintenance. That's been quite awhile to take care of things and to compile a list. They've had the list supplied to them by the various school boards from across the province.

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They've had a chance to look at it but, lo and behold, we find ourselves, perhaps, just weeks away from the call of an election, and still no news from this list. I don't know any more than anybody else would know about the call of an election, but I've been following it quite closely, Mr. Chairman, and I think that perhaps we could all aim in the same direction, that one is coming, probably sooner than later.

In all seriousness, I would like to know from the minister, and we can go into the estimates themselves, but I think the minister will explain that he has said there are going to be schools built. There are going to be new schools built in this province. I would like to hear from the minister exactly how that list was compiled, where that list stands right now. I would dearly love for the minister to tell me who is on that list and why they're on that list. Even, if he would table it before this committee, I would be pleased as punch. I am not naive enough to think that's actually going to happen, but I would be very pleased to have it happen.

I would like to hear from the minister as to that list, the province's seven regional school boards have asked - I know they've asked, Mr. Minister - for a number of schools which are probably impossible for you to find all of the money to build all of those schools. I know that you have, I'm speculating that you have, a priority list. I would like to know about it, and I would like to know what went into the compilation of that list.

[9:30 a.m.]

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, the list of schools which are considered for either replacement or additions and alterations, is a list which reflects the priorities of school boards. The priorities of the school boards have been brought forward and presented to the School Capital Construction Committee. That committee is represented by school boards, and represented by officials from the Department of Education and the Department of Transportation and Public Works. They do a detailed analysis of the priorities of all of the school boards, and they compiled a list. That list was brought forward in 2002.

Cabinet wanted further analysis of that list to be done. Further analysis did take place. As a result of that analysis, the whole program is currently before Cabinet and is receiving the consideration of Cabinet. Cabinet's decision relative to the construction program for new schools and additions and alterations will be made known following Cabinet's decision, which will take place in the near future.

MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, I will get back to a question concerning, specifically, when you expect the announcements to be made. First, I would like to know, you've announced over the past couple of months that you're going to announce 10 new schools for the province. Is that correct, the number 10?

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MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, the number 10 was prefaced, I believe, with the word, about, because I was asked that by a member of the press following an announcement in Hammonds Plains. When I say about, there are in the vicinity of 10 schools under consideration. Hammonds Plains, obviously, was a school which originally had been under consideration. It was announced on that particular day. It was announced because the Halifax Regional School Board requested us to indicate our intentions with respect to that school, because they had to make decisions relative to zoning. Those decisions had to take place in order for them to plan for the coming school year. So we did our best to accommodate them and brought forward that school on that occasion.

As I indicated, when asked the question as to how many other schools are being considered, I believe I used the word about or a word that would give that meaning, an approximation of 10. The precise number, of course, will be made known when Cabinet has made its final decision with respect to the program.

MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, what the minister is telling us is that it's not necessarily 10, it could be eight, it could be nine, it could be seven, it could be seven and a half, it could be eight and a half. So you have no idea right now of the exact number of new schools that are going to be built in this province, is that correct?

MR. MACISAAC: When Cabinet has made its decision, Mr. Chairman, we will know precisely how many schools there will be, and I don't anticipate there being any half-schools.

MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, as I said, right now the minister has no idea how many new schools are going to be built in this province, although he has been quoted as saying you were going to announce 10 new schools. Now you're saying you don't know how many are going to be built. So, what I would like to ask the minister then is, if he's saying he's not sure how many new schools are going to be built, then what is being done with that list right now? In particular, why now?

Why are you announcing new schools now that the construction won't actually start on those new schools until three years down the road? Why, all of a sudden, do you make this batch of announcements, Mr. Minister, and speculate on whether it's going to be eight new schools or 10 new schools? You announce them and the question remains, where are they going to be built, but you make the announcements leading up to schools, the construction of which will not start, in most cases, I would suggest, until some three years down the road. What's your reasoning behind that, Mr. Minister, please?

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, it's an interesting question that's asked by the honourable member. He wasn't here prior to 1999, but the honourable member is no doubt aware that in 1999, prior to the election, the then-government of the day announced 17 school projects, one of which was not intended to be finished until 2005. That list of 17

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schools did not have attached to it a single dollar of financing to suggest that the financing would be in place, relative to how those schools were going to be built.

What I can assure the honourable member of is this, when we announce the schools, we will announce because that is the time that we are ready, we will announce them so that school boards will be able to plan their future. We're in a position now to announce them because we are reaching the conclusion of a schedule of school buildings that's been underway since 1999. I believe we have completed nine schools, we have five under construction, and all of them are financed under the Tangible Capital Assets Program. When we announce, and it is now appropriate because we're reaching the next phase of school capital construction, we will do so with the numbers identified, and all people of the province will understand how those schools will be financed and paid for.

MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, I'm not quite sure - no, I am sure where the minister was headed with that answer, but it didn't answer what I was asking. What I asked the minister was, indeed, why now? Why wait until now? The fact of the matter is, because for almost four years this government has done absolutely nothing in terms of school construction and maintenance. Now, all of sudden, we find ourselves about a month or so away from an election and, lo and behold, you're pulling out the announcements.

I wanted to know, Mr. Minister, if, indeed, that list contains, perhaps, a new school for Barrington and a new school for Dominion. Are they included in the consideration for that list, Mr. Minister?

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I will repeat, for the honourable member, the answer that, perhaps, he didn't . . .

MR. WILSON: I heard.

MR. MACISAAC: Well, I will repeat it anyway, because you don't seem to understand the significance of it. We received and inherited a list of 17 schools that were committed by the previous government, prior to the 1999 election. They were schools that had no dollars attached to them, no way of knowing how they were going to be financed. What we have done, Mr. Chairman, is we have taken the bulk of that list and we built those schools or took action relative to the schools that were on that list. We are now nearing the completion of that list, therefore, it is appropriate for us to move to another phase.

The phase that we're now moving to is where when we announce the schools - and if the honourable member is patient, he will hear that announcement when it is made - the important thing is that unlike the list that was identified by the previous government in 1999 that had no dollars attached to it, the list that we will bring forward will have dollars attached and the method of financing will be clear to all Nova Scotians. I might say, Mr. Chairman, that if the program that is being suggested by the Leader of his Party were ever implemented,

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there would not be the capacity to get the money to build those schools, because he has clearly stated that that would not be part of their program if they were to be elected, unless, of course, his stated tax increase was going to be sufficiently large to pay for those schools. (Interruptions)

MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, if the member for Yarmouth would like to add something more than oops, I would be welcome to give him my time. (Interruptions) It's probably as intelligent a comment as I can expect from him.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, order. Order, please.

MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, what the minister is saying and what the minister has stated before this committee is that there is no plan. There is no plan whatsoever, haven't had a plan since they've been here, for school construction. (Interruptions) If the minister wants to deal with pure numbers, then I guess we can go back and say, how many schools have you built? How many schools has your government built, Mr. Minister? Would it be in the 30s? (Interruptions) Would the member for Yarmouth like the floor? Would you like the floor, because it would be one of the few times he has ever spoken in this Chamber, if he would like it right now? (Interruptions) I didn't think so.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, order. Order, please. (Interruptions) Order, please. Order, please. As chairman, I will ask for order in the House. Order, please. Order, please. I would remind the House that this is the committee on estimates, and the member for Glace Bay has the floor.

MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, what I would like to know from the minister now, I asked if perhaps Barrington Municipal High School, which is a high school which is a sick school, a sick school right now that is making kids sick and was identified as a priority, and Dominion school, which is a school which suffered from subsidence and sunk into the ground, it's no longer used, and that has been identified to the minister from the school board, the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board, they've identified to the minister that they would like to have a new school for the Dominion area. So either/or, can he assure the people of Barrington and area or the people of Dominion and area if, indeed, one or both of those schools is going to be included on a priority list?

I've asked the minister if that priority list comes from the school boards and they've identified the schools that should be put on there as a priority, I've asked the minister, how do they determine what the priority is, or indeed is it determined whether or not you're in a Tory riding? Is that how you determine priorities, as to where the schools are going to be built? Those couple of questions should be fairly easy for the minister to answer.

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[3:45 a.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before I recognize the Minister of Education, I would like to tell the House that it's very noisy in here and it's hard to hear the questions and answers. I would ask everyone to keep order while we are doing the estimates.

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, what I can assure the honourable member is that the students served by the schools to which he refers will be provided with a good, safe surrounding in which they will receive their education. That is, of course, our first priority. With respect to the two locations, the honourable member knows that the students who were originally housed in the Macdonald school are now being served very well in the Breton Education Centre. The honourable member knows that there are plans in place for those students to be looked after in the coming year.

The honourable member knows what it is that I said when I met with the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board, that we would not be, because of the overcapacity that exists in and around the area of Dominion, building a new school. We did, however, indicate that we are prepared to discuss, not just discuss but we indicated that we are prepared to upgrade the facilities for the elementary school in that area and, of course, we would engage discussion with the school board with respect to other improvements that we may be able to make, relative to that particular situation.

In the other location, Barrington, I can let the honourable member know that the decision with respect to that facility will very much depend upon the analysis that comes forward as a result of the work of doctors who are currently evaluating the situation. Next week, I believe, we are meeting with representatives from that community, and we will be providing them with an update with respect to where we are at that time. I can tell the honourable member that our first priority, of course, will be to ensure that the students of that area have a safe, secure environment in which to receive their education.

Now, the honourable member also made reference to schools that we are going to build. I can tell the honourable member that these are the programs that have been followed by this particular government. There were 16 schools of the list of 17 that came forward, plus an additional three that were built by this government. They are schools that are owned by the people of this province, they are schools where the issue of access and after-school use of the buildings is open to the community, under the control of the school board, and there are no restrictions with respect to people wanting to gain access to those schools, as long as they meet the criteria of the school board not a private operator.

Mr. Chairman, the schools are Elmsdale, Chignecto-Central Regional School Board, at a cost of $16 million, which is financed through the Tangible Capital Assets Program; there is the Clare P-12, Southwest Regional School Board, $11 million - and I believe the honourable member knows who represents Clare - there is the Argyle P-12, Southwest

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Regional School Board, $19 million; Ste. Anne du Ruisseau, CSAP school, $11 million; Chedabucto Place, Strait Regional School Board, $3.9 million; Whycocomagh, Strait Regional School Board, $18 million; Pomquet, CSAP, at $8 million. Those are all up and operating.

There is the Shipyard Elementary, the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board, an amount of $7.8 million, that is now operating. There is, in January 2003, the Halifax North Mainland High School, the Halifax Regional School Board, an amount of $26 million. Under construction is the South Colchester High School, the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board, that is $20 million. Due to open in September 2003 is the West Pictou High School, the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board, an amount of $22 million. There is the East Pictou High, the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board, an amount of $22 million. Those two schools will be opened in September 2003.

There is, in September 2004, the Truro Junior High, the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board, that's $10.6 million, the Windsor Regional High School in the Annapolis Valley Regional School Board in the amount of $15.4 million, and I indicated those will be open in September 2004. Under construction there is the Amherst Elementary, there's the Cumberland Elementary, and, respectively, I believe they are $10 million and $8 million projects. The Rankin, Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board, an amount of $6.2 million; the Shelburne Regional, the Southwest Regional School Board, $18.9 million; the Sydney Elementary in Cape Breton and that is an amount of $11.4 million. (Interruption) Yes, construction is about to begin on those last five projects that I identified. That is the total, Mr. Chairman, of 19 projects completed, started, or about to start, all financed under the Tangible Capital Assets Program of this government for an amount of $191 million. (Applause)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, the minister mentioned and he has just outlined the Tangible Capital Assets Program for building schools. So I would like to find out from the minister exactly how that method of financing works and when a school is finally, under that program, paid in full?

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, the Tangible Capital Assets Program is a program where the province is able to go to the market to obtain the funds that are required for the building of the schools and those funds are amortized at a rate of 5 per cent per annum for the particular projects in question.

MR. WILSON: Again, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister when that would be paid? How many years are we talking about here?

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MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, as I indicated to the honourable member, if you take an amount of money and you amortize it at the rate of 5 per cent per annum, then you can see how long it takes to go ahead and complete the payment, but it's not a manner of financing that is different than the honourable member would use, or other honourable members would use, to finance their homes.

You take out a mortgage on the value of the home. You retire the debt as you progress and you treat your home as an asset and, as you pay it down, the value of the asset increases and the value of your home increases as well and, of course, you would hope that it would appreciate in value throughout the course of owning the home. That, of course, is an acceptable method of financing capital assets that are owned either by individuals or by people within the province, because as you pay down the amount that was obtained from the market for that particular asset, then of course the asset increases in value and it is something that belongs to all Nova Scotians at the end of the day.

MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, you know when you're borrowing you're adding to the debt, number one. For instance, I have a mortgage, but I know when that mortgage is going to be paid in full; I know the term of that mortgage. So you've listed to us 19 projects that are completed, started, or about to be started at a total of $191 million. So take one of those schools, Mr. Minister, give me an example. Take one of those schools and tell me when it's paid in full under your plan.

MR. MACISAAC: Perhaps the honourable member would just repeat the question and I can try to be more precise.

MR. WILSON: I will repeat it 100 times if I could get an answer, Mr. Chairman. What I said was if you would take one of your 19 schools or projects that you announced as an example and tell us exactly how long it's going to take to pay off that school in full.

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Finance I believe will be doing his estimates in the Chamber and you can ask of him how the province actually acquires the funds that are given to the Department of Education relative to this, because we do not go to the market for a particular school. For instance, we would not go to the market for the Whycocomagh School and obtain the funds for that particular school, we would go to the market based on the total capital needs of the province within a fiscal year, and the province goes to the market and because they do it in a lump sum, taking all of the capital that is required, then we are able of course to be much more competitive with respect to rates when it is done in that manner. I'm sure that the Minister of Finance would be quite pleased to go through the details of how the Department of Finance goes to the market and when they float their bonds with respect to obtaining funds for the capital needs of the province in any given fiscal year.

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Now there is a fundamental difference of course in our method of financing the construction of schools relative to that which was pursued by the previous government in the P3 program because, when we finish paying for the schools, we own the schools in their entirety. Under the P3 program, when the contract is concluded you still don't own the school and must pay a sum in order to acquire that particular school. So while we have financial obligations with respect to our schools, the schools are assets that we have, and those schools have significant value to the province once they are paid for.

MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, the minister hasn't answered the question, and I would dare say it's because the minister doesn't know the answer to the question and he refers me to the Minister of Finance. This is the Minister of Education who says he has a plan to build a whole bunch of new schools and he can't tell this committee how they're paid for and how long it takes to pay off a school. Now, Mr. Minister, you should know that. You have your officials with you and I'm sure they know and they can whisper that answer in your ear. Otherwise, you're just hiding behind the Finance Minister right now.

[10:00 a.m.]

I asked you to take one of those schools and you proudly stood up and listed 19 schools and all of your colleagues stood up and cheered, but I don't hear them cheering now when you can't tell us how that's going to be paid for, Mr. Minister. Take one school as an example - I don't care what school it is - you tell me how long it's going to take to pay for that school. I will ask the minister again, Mr. Chairman, give me an example, give me a concrete example of how much it's going to cost, over what term, to pay that school off in full?

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, what is lacking here is an appreciation by the honourable member as to how the province conducts its finances and I will attempt to explain that to him.

AN HON. MEMBER: How can you explain that when you can't explain this.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr. Minister, you have the floor.

MR. MACISAAC: No, I fear that the degree of complication and the problem of complication does not reside on this side of the House, it resides on that side of the House and perhaps because they didn't understand that concept, Mr. Chairman, is the reason that they resorted to P3, because they could not figure out how to go to the market to borrow the funds required to look after the capital needs of the province, and that is what we do.

Mr. Chairman, we build roads - they are not going to build roads because they're not going to go to the market to get money. We build schools - they're not going to build schools because they're not going to go to the market to get money. We build other capital needs to

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serve the needs of education, to serve the needs of the Department of Justice, and to serve the needs of Transportation and Public Works. So all of those capital needs that the province has within a fiscal year need to be found in the market, and let me give you an example of why it's not appropriate to take a single school and break it down in terms of the financing of that school.

We build schools, Mr. Chairman, over a period of three to four years, depending upon the amount of planning that is required, depending upon the amount of residual work that is done once the essence of the building is completed. So if a school were a $20-million project, it may be that in the first year of that project you would only spend $1 million, so you would not go out to the market and borrow the full $20 million in the first year - and the same with a highway project that would take three years to build. You would not go to the market and borrow $20 million for a highway project that you were going to finance over three years. You would go to the market and you would find the $1 million for the first year of construction of that school. If in the next phase you were going to spend $10 million, then of course you would go to the market in the next year and you would borrow $10 million - that's now a total of $11 million that you have invested in that school, so in the third year you would go to the market again and if you needed an additional $8 million, you would go to the market and get the $8 million and in the last year you would, from the market, get the remaining money that you needed for the building of that school.

So, Mr. Chairman, the funds that are needed for the construction of the school are funds which are obtained as they are required in order to finance and pay for the building of the school. Now that explains, I hope, to the honourable member why it is not appropriate to say why you can't identify with the single school because it is lumped in with Transportation, it is lumped in with the capital needs of Health, it is lumped in with the capital needs of Justice and other departments within government - and that is why I suggest to the honourable member that, if he wants the details with respect to how this is done, he should get involved in the examination of the Minister of Finance's estimates because I'm sure the Minister of Finance would provide even more detail than I have been able to this morning, but I hope that the honourable member now understands that you don't go out to the market and obtain the whole $20 million at the start of a project, but you do it in a phased manner, you do it responsibly as you need the funds. I hope the honourable member understands my explanation.

MR. WILSON: There are quite a few things I understand, Mr. Chairman. I understand the word "borrow" and I know that the minister has said they're "borrowing" and that they will "continue to borrow" to pay for schools and that they have "borrowed in the past" and they "will borrow again in the future" and they will "borrow and borrow and borrow" the money.

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Despite the minister's arrogance, Mr. Chairman, despite that, I've asked a very simple question, a very simple question. I know, and anybody in this Chamber knows that if they had taken out a mortgage they know when it's going to be paid in full and how much it costs to pay that mortgage in full. Well, Mr. Minister, you're saying that you're taking out mortgages on 19 schools, pick one and tell me how much it's going to cost over what period of time. That's a very simple couple of questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The member for Glace Bay has 20 minutes left in turn while we're waiting for the minister. Mr. Minister, you have the floor.

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member believes that we do our own financing within Education in order to build our schools. Now the fact of the matter is that is done by Finance, and it is done by Finance within the context of the total capital requirements of the province from year to year. As I indicated to the honourable member, that is accomplished by going to the market as the funds are required. The honourable member must understand that if, as is suggested by the Leader of his Party, they are not prepared to go to the market, then they should explain if in fact they're going to build schools; they should explain if in fact they're going to build roads; and they should explain if in fact they're going to look after the capital needs of Justice, of other government departments, because if they are not going to the market - as their Leader suggests they are not going to do - then either they are not going to build schools, they are not going to build roads, or their tax increase will be sufficient to pay for the $106 million that we're going to spend on roads and the $200 million that is going to be spent on schools - it's one thing or the other.

MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, I've repeatedly asked the minister a question, a very simple question. The minister has done everything except give me an answer to the questions which I've asked time and time again to give me an example - and I didn't ask him to explain the process of the Finance Department, I asked him, as the Minister of Education, and he is the Minister of Education, therefore he should know without a doubt how a school is financed and he should know how long it takes to pay for that school. That's all I've asked him. He has not given me an answer to that question. He's ducking it, that's what that minister is doing. So I will move on to something that maybe he can give me an answer to. I will give him a simple question. The maintenance of our schools, Mr. Minister, how much is deferred?

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, in 2000 there was an amount of about $500 million of deferred maintenance required; that of course would be an accumulative number

that came to us as a result of the lack of maintenance that was done over the period of the 1990s. We, since that time, have invested $291 million toward that deferred maintenance cost. It continues to be a challenge, but we have plans to address it. We are working with our colleagues and partners in the school boards to address that. We are also very actively involved in seeking approaches that may not have been followed in the past in order to

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ensure that we continue to address that in an ongoing manner so that we do not develop deficiencies in the future.

MR. WILSON: I feel we're on a roll here, so I'll continue with questions that perhaps can be answered. Mr. Minister, tell me please if there have been any schools sold lately?

MR. MACISAAC: In the event that a school was built prior to 1983 and that school is no longer required, then the school is turned back to the municipal unit that would have been instrumental in the building of that school in the first place. How the municipal unit decides to deal with that asset, of course, is their decision. Prior to 1983, those buildings were built by the municipal unit in which they were located.

MR. WILSON: I said I felt we were on a roll, so I'll ask it again, have there been any schools sold lately?

MR. MACISAAC: The answer to the question is yes. The details of the question however would have to be obtained from the municipal units that would have sold the schools because prior to 1983 they built and owned the school, and following that we wound up taking over the assets, but there was a recognition that it was an asset that was owned by the municipality. So when the school that was built prior to 1983 is no longer required by a school board, it reverts back to the municipal unit and they have the option of disposing of that asset in a manner which they deem appropriate.

MR. WILSON: I want to make perfectly sure that I'm understanding it, I wouldn't want to not understand what you're saying. So you haven't sold any schools - you give schools away, do you, to municipalities?

MR. MACISAAC: The schools we are referencing are schools that were built by the municipal units. They are schools that were owned by the municipal units. They are schools that were used by the school boards while they were under the ownership of the municipal units. They are schools which were deemed no longer necessary by the school boards so those schools were vacated by the school boards and they continued to be owned by the municipal units.

MR. WILSON: I was just looking for a clarification, that's all. The minister was kind enough to say that I could get a clarification. Perhaps I didn't understand that point, he's explained it to me perfectly. I appreciate that kind of clarity which we haven't seen until now on the other questions that I asked.

Mr. Chairman, how much time do I have remaining, please?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Honourable member, you have until 10:26 a.m.

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MR. WILSON: Thank you very much. I wanted to revert back to a question that (Interruptions)

[10:15 a.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The honourable member for Glace Bay does have the floor.

MR. WILSON: Thank you. I wanted to revert back to a matter that I had brought up during the first of my time. I wanted to, as well, end with that here again.

Before I do, maybe it's just me, but I want to ask the minister, he referred to how many schools were sold - was it after 1983? Was that the date that was used? How many were sold prior to that? So maybe I should have asked the question: How many were sold after 1983? Would that be a fair question to ask? Would it be okay with the other Opposition members?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Honourable members are required to direct their questions and answers through the Chair.

MR. MACISAAC: The only school that I'm aware of - and we will check on this to make sure that I am accurate - built since 1983 that is not now in use is the Macdonald Complex in Dominion. That facility, we have not taken action with respect to its future but that's the only one and obviously that's not a facility that would be of any resale value in its current state.

MR. WILSON: I thank the minister for the answer. I would like to get back to a matter that we were discussing at the first of our conversation, that being the priority list that is either compiled or is being compiled by the Cabinet. Again, I'd like to ask the minster perhaps if he could explain to us exactly what input he has into compiling that list as the Minister of Education in this province?

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I'll try to explain the process to the honourable member. The school boards compile their priority list, that list was considered by the capital committee that's reviewing the list, I made reference to that before - they have come forward with a list within the department, we have put that list together and bring it forward. I'm involved in the discussions with members of the department, I seek their advice and give great value to the advice that I get from them. It is then considered - based on my recommendation - by Cabinet. Of course, since there are significant dollars associated with it, it then requires some detailed consideration by the government and consideration by the Department of Finance and that is where the projects are at this particular time.

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MR. WILSON: The minster has explained that. I'd like to know then, he has the final say? Is that what he is telling us, that, as Minister of Education, you have the final say as to what schools remain on that list?

MR. MACISAAC: The list that would be announced by myself as the minister will be a list that would have been approved by the Cabinet.

MR. WILSON: So if a school has been added to that list by a school board as a priority and then it has been determined by the Department of Education as a priority and then has your check mark by it as a priority, that decision can still be overturned by the Cabinet - is that correct?

MR. MACISAAC: The check mark is the easy part, putting the check mark by the items on the list. The challenge, of course, is to find the funds that match the dollars associated with the check mark, and that is the responsibility of all of the Cabinet to be able to find that.

MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, I have to apologize in this instance because my earpiece went dead and I just didn't hear the answer. I apologize - could I hear it again please?

MR. MACISAAC: Certainly. The honourable member was kind enough to repeat his questions to me on occasion and I'll do my best to provide him with a repeat of the answer. What I said was that the check mark is the easy part of the process, because that's where you say yes, this is what we would like to do, we'd like to do this, this and this. The challenge in the process, of course, is to find the dollars that go with the check marks as you start to add them up. Therein lies the challenge of Cabinet, and that is what is being addressed at the current time.

MR. WILSON: I must say, as was stated in Public Accounts yesterday, it's a pretty worrisome process when school boards in this province can identify priorities for their schools in their own districts and say this is the school that we need based on whether there's a problem with it, it's a sick school as is the case with Barrington, or whatever the case may be, and then have that list go to the Department of Education, move on to the Minister of Education and then move on to the Cabinet in this province and because perhaps a political decision will interfere, the decision to put that school on the list could disappear into thin air. It's a pretty sad process if that has the potential of happening.

Let me tell you, the potential for that happening at this time right now in Nova Scotia is very great indeed. As we know, it's just around the corner and we know that this group over here - as they've done many, many times before - will play politics with a lot of things, and schools are going to be one of them. Schools will be one of them - you can bet your bottom dollar that within the next few weeks, the school construction announcements will

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be coming out of nowhere. The minister will be criss-crossing, I hope, the province to make these announcements - here's a new school. Here's a new school that actually won't start being built until three years down the road, but we're announcing it now because this is election time.

I'd also like to explain to the minister who was very kind to explain to me about the process of how you finance a school - I still feel that the Minister of Education should have been able to explain and be able to tell us when each school will be paid off, that Minister of Education should know that - there is an amortization schedule for each project, and the minister should be able to get it. The money for a school is borrowed up front and spent in full during construction, that's another fact. The amortization is what shows up on the bottom line and amortization is how you account for it. You think about it for a minute. It's like saying that you had a mortgage, but you don't borrow a portion of the mortgage each year, you borrow the full amount. You borrow the full amount.

Having said that, I know I don't have much time remaining Mr. Chairman - I think you told me my time expired at approximately 10:26 a.m. - so in closing, I know that there are going to be other members of my caucus who are going to be asking questions of the Minister of Education and I know how serious a problem it is in terms of school construction and school maintenance in this province. I know that it indeed is a question of the need, I think, that should be placed first before anything else. I hope that politics will not play a part in any decision that is being made on behalf of our children in this province. What could be any more important than the education of our children?

In closing Mr. Chairman, I'd like to thank you for the time to ask the minister the questions; I'd like to thank the minister for his participation as well. Having said that, I will now take my seat. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.

MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: In spite of that last hour, let's turn to something of specifics. I know we had the topic of pilots, I want the deputy minister to know that information, I appreciate the travel. But I'm going to talk about the real pilots in education because that is a concern I want you to address. Particularly, I want the minister to know that I've heard from teachers on numerous occasions that they consider pilot projects to be stall tactics in many ways.

Pilot projects, when it comes to looking at a particular issue in education, it's well let's have a pilot project on that at a cost of whatever. So I'd like the minister, if he could, to clarify for me, perhaps with some detail if available, the number of current pilot projects underway in the department and in what specialty areas.

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MR. MACISAAC: I thank the honourable member for the question. I will take that as notice and I will respond to the honourable member. The reason for going through my papers is because I have responses from questions that he asked on a previous day that I will lay on the table, which I forgot to do when he was up previously. We'll take that question as notice and provide you with as much detail as we can.

MR. ESTABROOKS: There are a couple of pilot projects that I would like to discuss. I would like to look specifically at the Special Education Implementation Review Committee and the recommendation that there be pilot projects. On the information that was sent out to boards for applications, it was said that these pilot projects will address the gaps in current delivery services. That's a quote, Mr. Chairman. On the applications the "pilot projects will address gaps in current delivery services". The concern that I have and one I have heard from parents involved in this process is why do we need a pilot project when it comes to this particular review committee when the gaps are caused by a very obvious problem - a shortage of qualified professionals?

MR. MACISAAC: The very last part of your question - I wonder if the honourable member would mind repeating that? I got the first part of it, just the last part.

MR. ESTABROOKS: The concern has been brought to my attention by parents with regard to the need to actually have a pilot project when looking at this review committee when the obvious gap that is caused in the special education delivery to students is because there's a shortage of qualified professionals and qualified people actually in the classrooms, in the learning centres, in the areas where we have one-on-one with students. Why do we have to have pilot projects when it comes to this issue when we know what the problem already is?

MR. MACISAAC: I can indicate to the honourable member that indeed we do have to find additional qualified personnel to address special needs within our schools and we are providing funding in the current budget in order to begin addressing that. But in my view, it does not preclude us from taking measures to try to find some innovative ways to address the problems that we have while we go out and seek the additional personnel that are required to deal with these problems. So, I don't see it as a process that would take place in isolation, but it is part of the whole strategy that we need to employ in order to move forward in addressing these concerns.

[10:30 a.m.]

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, the special education committee has said that they consulted parents about these pilot projects, that parents and teachers were consulted, yet from the information that has been given to me, Ann Power of your department could not provide the names of the parents who had been consulted on the need for these pilot projects. So I would say that we have a problem of communication here, not to get into Paul

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Newman's classic movie, but I am dealing with parents who are saying a pilot project, when it comes to the Special Education Implementation Review Committee, is nothing more than one of these other stall tactics, and that's the reputation that pilot projects have in the Department of Education.

Many parents know the issue. Many teachers know the issue. School administrators know the issue, but when it comes to a pilot project on this very important topic, it is a stall tactic by the department when we already know the problem. Parents say they were not consulted on the need for pilot projects, and I wonder if the minister could comment so I can return that comment to the parents who have made that comment to me, in return of what you are going to say now.

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, pilot projects are only a piece of the strategy that's required to address this very important problem and challenge that faces us. We certainly do not present the pilot projects as the be-all and the end-all. They are only a piece of the strategy that we require. As I indicated previously, a major element of that is to obtain the additional resources within our schools that are needed in order to address these problems. So I do not see a conflict with respect to finding best practices through pilot projects and learning new initiatives or new approaches as being contrary to the long-term objective. I see it as playing an integral part of that long-term objective, and I don't disagree with the honourable member that we can in fact identify a lot of the problems, but we do need the resources to be able to diagnose a lot of problems, and that's where we need the additional resources. But in terms of addressing the problems relative to the diagnoses that are performed, it is appropriate for us to find best practices that work with respect to addressing these problems.

With respect to the issue of consultation, I don't have with me the details that the honourable member is seeking, except to say that consultation is a very difficult term to sort of recognize, if I could phrase it that way. Certainly if you come to me with a problem and I am able to respond completely to the suggestion that you have made to me with respect to the problem, then you would probably go away and say that you were consulted. If you come to me with a problem and others also present the problem and I respond in a way that doesn't address it precisely as you suggested it should be addressed, then you would perhaps characterize it as not being a good consultation, but you might agree to the fact that there was consultation. If I'm not able to respond in a manner that you deem appropriate, then you would probably characterize the process as a process that lacked consultation. So it's one that's very difficult to agree upon and it depends very much on your perspective as to whether or not you feel there has been an adequate level of consultation occur.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, your comments about consultation are well put and I concur. I'm on the topic of pilot projects because of a particular item that I brought to members' attention on a day previous. I know I'm not allowed props, and I can't lose this copy of this particular textbook so I will keep it down here. It's called Drawing the Line: A

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Resource for the Prevention of Problem Gambling - I know the minister is aware of this and he has sent me a note over to follow up - here's a pilot project that was used, and for the record I want to again highlight the schools that it was used in, if I may?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I would just advise the member and caution him that using a text in budget debate is permitted. If the member reads extensively from any transcript, he may be required - most likely will be - to table it, but if the honourable member has a document there, he can use it. I don't think it would necessarily be considered a prop unless he illustrates in such a way.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Well the concern I have, Mr. Chairman, and I appreciate, I think you know where I'm coming from, unless I get this a lot closer to the one good eye that I have, I will never be able to read it. I'm not going to wave it around like The New York Times, I promise the minister. So let's have a look here. This is from Drawing the Line: - which was a pilot for Grades 4 to 6 for curriculum supplement - A Resource for the Prevention of Problem Gambling, and it was used in these schools: Brookfield Memorial School, Inglis Street School, Coxheath Elementary, the Upper Stewiacke Elementary School, the Somerset and District Elementary School down in the Annapolis Valley, it was used in Mulgrave Memorial Education Centre for the Strait board, and Hebbville Academy.

This pilot project obviously involved teacher training. It obviously involved, from my perspective as a school administrator, a rather delicate topic to be using - in my view again, Mr. Chairman - for students from Grades 4, 5 and 6. Now based upon the experience of the pilot and the fact that these teachers were trained, could the minister inform the House what are the plans of the department to use this book extensively, to have it become part of the curriculum, because that's what happens when pilots are involved, you know, they're announced with a splash and sometimes in certain situations for other reasons, but here we are, we have had a pilot project on the topic of gambling and now we have teachers trained. So I would like the minister to inform me exactly where we are going with this particular workbook and this particular piece of curriculum because, and if I may, if I give the minister a moment to consider his answer - previously the minister said something very, very applicable, and as a school teacher I know we agree on this, that school teachers are often called upon to do many things outside of what we are trained for.

I can use an example for you, Mr. Chairman. I graduated with a history degree - and a minor in football, but we won't go there - yet during one of the years that I taught school I was called upon to be involved in a project in sex education. Now, let's be clear . . .

MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: . . . know nothing about it.

MR. ESTABROOKS: And I am not making the comment, the member for Halifax Chebucto just said that's a topic I know nothing about. However, . . .

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MR. CHAIRMAN: The member shouldn't be swayed by rabbit tracks.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Although that was more of a bear track. Mr. Chairman, let's be clear on this, okay? Why are we, as educators, in the midst of all of the demands that are made on us, dealing with such issues? Why are we taking the time out of the preparation during the day, when there's emphasis upon mathematics, when there's emphasis upon reading skills, to be dealing with such things as a pilot project or teaching this particular topic of gambling, or the other topic which I mentioned earlier. I know the minister has said this prior, that sometimes there's so many other things that teachers are called upon to do when it comes to curriculum development, so I would like to know, where are we going with this gambling pilot project? Is this going to become part of the curriculum for Grades 4 to 6 or, Heaven forbid, if I may editorialize, I hope it's not part of the curriculum of the schools in my community because, in my view, this has no place in the school system; however, Mr. Minister, if you would comment, please.

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for raising the issue and indeed I believe we do share a concern with respect to how much we are expecting of our schools, and how much we're expecting of the teachers in our schools relative to their training and their capacity to be able to deal with certain topics and subjects. That is why with respect to this particular resource that there was a training program put in place for the teachers who were using the program in the project. While I share the honourable member's concern with respect to what our teachers are being asked to do, I do believe that we, as part of our education, must not put our heads in the sand with respect to those items to which our students are exposed within our society, and that we do indeed have to be able to have some capacity to respond to that exposure that students have.

I want to make sure that everyone understands that I'm distinguishing between exposing our students to elements that are a reality of our society and asking our teachers to take remedial action relative to people who have problems or who develop problems relative to things that exist within our society. So I believe that there's a fundamental difference between exposure of students to realities of our society and of expecting teachers to take remedial action relative to problems that individual students might develop with respect to issues that are out there.

I want to say to the honourable member that this particular resource was made available to teachers. It was, and is, part of attempting to have students understand the reality of a phenomenon within our society and to do it in a way, hopefully, that the students will be able to make some good judgments with respect to the subject matter at hand, and that is the intent of this particular pilot - and I want to say that in no way is it an attempt to get involved with the actual treatment of any problems or difficulties that students may have. However, I do suspect that where the honourable member is going with this, that his concern is that by talking about it we're somehow leading students in that particular direction and we

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may have, while I haven't heard him completely articulate his position with respect to that, some fundamental difference of opinion relative to that.

[10:45 a.m.]

MR. ESTABROOKS: If I may continue with the topic of pilots, I attended a news conference at Hants West High School, dear old Hants West, and at that time there was a pilot announced, part of it was in the Valley, involving at-risk students and the difficulties particularly in areas such as the Windsor area, and there are at-risk students everywhere of course, and that particular pilot project was one that I was interested to see if the minister could report to the House - the previous minister announced it at that time, there were some support people there; in fact Mr. Gunn was there from the board and was supportive of the project, and since I am a classmate of Mr. Gunn and it is an issue that of course we have to be dealing with constantly in the school system, I was wondering if the minister could report to me on the progress of that particular pilot, not necessarily just at the Windsor school situation, but that particular pilot of dealing with at-risk students?

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, with the indulgence of the honourable member, I would prefer to take the option of perhaps obtaining a detailed response to the honourable member rather than just going on a few scattered concepts or ideas that I have with respect to what has been accomplished, and we will be very happy to do that and we will do it as quickly as we can.

MR. ESTABROOKS: On that topic, I want the record to show very clearly that in spite of the fact that the comments that I make about the role of pilot projects in the education system, when somebody on the ground or in the trenches - or whatever the appropriate expression is - such as Jimmy Gunn says, that's a pilot project which I think could have some merit, I perhaps would look at that with a different attitude than other pilot projects that I would consider in the stall mode. However, again, although I know I can get other copies of this, in this Learning For Life document there is a mention on Page 8 of eight active school community pilots and this is an issue which is, of course, a real concern for the community that I represent.

It says, and I'm not going to read from it extensively, Mr. Chairman, "The pilots will test a comprehensive program to promote daily physical activity, including after-school programs, community events, co- and extra-curricular activities." Okay, end of quoting from the source, I assure you, so I don't lose my book here and this is of course from Learning For Life. I was wondering if the minister could report to me the eight active school community pilots, where they are, what is the status of those pilots and, I guess more importantly, if one of those pilots is still available for a bidding order, if the member for Timberlea-Prospect could have a community involved in one of those pilot projects?

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So here's a pilot project which looks at issues of real relevance in the growing community, particularly when it comes to the fact - and I know the Chair has heard me say this on many occasions - our schools sit closed so often and they're so difficult to get into and they're so costly to get into, particularly when it comes to a certain type of school - but I don't want to go there, okay. I'm more concerned about the fact here is another pilot project which was announced by the previous minister, and is this a pilot project that the current minister can report to me about?

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for the question. The pilot involves the seven school boards in the first year - the Southwest Regional School Board will have two schools, one in each of the district boards and a ninth school has been added to include the Mi'kmaq community. Each school has gathered an action team to develop a plan and most are beginning implementation. For most boards the plan will expand about halfway through the project to include the family of schools in which the original pilot project resides. So it's something that will expand and in a sense it becomes much more than a pilot at that particular juncture.

In many cases, the family of schools will include one high school, a couple of junior highs and several elementary schools. In Kingston it will include Kingston Elementary School and its family, Pine Ridge Middle School. Some of the pilot schools are quite advanced in the activities and the partnerships already underway, while others are starting from ground zero. The Kingston schools are fairly advanced and will therefore begin with the family of schools, not just one school. That pilot, of course, is in conjunction with the Department of Culture and Recreation and I can, through the kindness of the Minister of Tourism and Culture, provide you with a complete list of the schools.

One is Evelyn Richardson School - that is in the Municipality of the District of Barrington; there is the Kingston Elementary, Pine Ridge Middle School, in the Municipality of the County of Kings, in the village of Kingston; the J.L. Ilsley High School in the Halifax Regional Municipality; the Hebbville Academy in the Municipality of the County of Lunenburg; the Hants North feeder schools in the Municipality of the East Hants; the Cusack-Cornwallis School in the Cape Breton Regional Municipality; East Antigonish Academy in the Municipality of the County of Antigonish; École Stella Maris in the Municipality of Clare; and the Waycobah First Nation Secondary School.

These are the schools that are involved and if the honourable member would like a copy of that, I'd be quite happy to provide it to him.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I thank the minister for the thorough answer - and I will take you up on the offer of that note if I could at your convenience, please - I'm also looking forward to the results of those pilot projects in terms of making sure that we have feedback to members of the Legislature and members in those areas mentioned in particular.

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There's a concern that we could talk about in terms of pilot projects again. This is an important issue when I look at the growth in the community that I represent. At Ridgecliff Middle School, there is a Teen Health Centre that is playing a more and more prominent role in the growth of the community and the awareness of young people who attend that school. This Teen Health Centre is a model for many other schools to follow. I'm aware of the fact that the guidance counsellor at Ridgecliff is on one of the provincial committees which is reviewing the trend - if that's the way we could look at it - the necessity to have teen health centres in middle and junior high schools in particular.

What I would like the minister to comment upon is whether he's supportive of this trend - if that's an appropriate term - because teen health centres cannot just be in high schools. Teen health centres in high schools are serving a different need than teen health centres in junior high and in the middle schools. That is where they are crucial. I can tell you that the Teen Health Centre at Ridgecliff Middle School, in the community of Beechville which services the communities of Beechville-Lakeside-Timberlea, is one of the focal points of that school.

I'm wondering if the minister could report on whether this is the example that could be followed in other areas and whether this is the sort of trend - maybe that's the inappropriate word - but this is the sort of trend that you are supportive of?

MR. MACISAAC: Indeed, I'm glad the honourable member brought this topic forward. It is something that we do support. I can recall many times when being in a school where the capacity to be able to deal with health-related issues in the school, you were not always in the best circumstance relative to that. We do indeed support the concept. They play an important role in health promotion and in the overall well-being of teens. There are 23 youth Teen Health Centres operating throughout Nova Scotia and they provide a range of health supports and services to youth, such as health education, health promotion, information, and referral and follow-up and support.

The Department of Health through the Office of Health Promotion, is conducting a three-part evaluation of the youth health centres. The phase I and II report, which is completed, focuses on the structure and the operation of the centres, including start-up, location, age, activities, human resources, financial characteristics, and governance. I can also indicate that we're probably dealing with a situation of a program that is a very good program which we want to continue to expand through the Office of Health Promotion in our schools. If I might point out to the honourable member, that is likely something that got started as a pilot project.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I particularly would like to draw attention to Ms. Graham-Nigel who's a part of that. I understand the role of pilot projects for sure. The concern I want to make evident again - and I'm glad to see there are 23 of them around the province, more particularly, how many of them are in junior high or middle school? That's where I'm

[Page 357]

coming from with this particular issue. I'm not looking at the high school and the fact that we should be reducing having teen health centres in high schools, but I'm very concerned about the fact of the availability for teen health centres in middle schools, junior high schools. I want the minister to know that I spent many years as a high school teacher, vice-principal, and principal, and when I took the career move and went to junior high, many of my colleagues looked at me and asked, are you crazy Bill, what are you going to junior high for?

There's no more challenging area than to deal with Grade 8 students - and let me tell you, junior high teachers earn their stripes. The concern that I have for the issue is that teen health centres in junior highs are crucial. They are needed in junior high schools or middle schools. The junior high which I had the privilege of working in, before I was fortunate enough to get elected as the member for Timberlea-Prospect, did not have a Teen Health Centre. Ridgecliff has a Teen Health Centre. So I want to come back to this issue - the concern I have is how many of those 23 - if you can't tell me right here, I understand that - are in junior high or middle schools? That's where the emphasis must be.

MR. MACISAAC: I can indicate to the honourable member that, first of all, we will provide you with a complete list of where these centres are located. I can say that some of them are in Grades 7 to 12 schools. We are doing, as part of the ongoing process, an evaluation of these centres, and that evaluation I believe will assist us in concluding where we need to proceed next with respect to this program. It is an evaluation that will be done of course in consultation with my colleagues' department and Health Promotion.

Mr. Chairman, if I might, I would point out for visitors that we have today just where we are in the proceedings. It's been pointed out to me that a number of them are looking at seating plans and they might come to the conclusion that the Deputy Minister of Education has undergone a transformation and that I'm the Minister of Finance. We are in a stage of debate where we're considering the estimates of each of the departments and, as the Minister of Education, it is my responsibility - as they can see the process go this morning - to defend the expenditures of the taxpayers' money as presented in the budget and, of course, it is an opportunity for members of the committee to question me on how the Department of Education conducts its expenditures both for the proposed year and for previous fiscal years.

[11:00 a.m.]

So the members of the committee have before them the details of the budget as presented by the Minister of Finance and, by examining those figures, they are able to ask me questions about the operations of my department. It's appropriate for me to have officials from the department with me this morning. That's where we are with respect to this stage of the debate.I thank the honourable member for his time to make that explanation.

[Page 358]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I thank the Minister of Education for that explanation. We would like to also welcome our visitors and guests who are with us today in the gallery. I maybe could just quickly mention that, as well, over in the Red Room we have a similar debate going on relative to another department's budget.

The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect. We will add a few seconds on for taking away from your time.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Well, that's very thoughtful of you, Mr. Chairman. I welcome our guests who are here today. This is an issue of some concern, of course, when it comes to education. I have been dealing with the issue of pilot projects and, at times, what teachers in my community say about them in terms of when it comes to developing curriculum and whether they are a worthy way of developing curriculum. For the guests here, when I had a real job as a school administrator, or as a school teacher, I can tell you that it was a career that I valued and one I was fortunate enough to be involved in.

Mr. Minister, we've had an exchange this morning. Before I turn the remainder of my time over to the member for Halifax Chebucto, I know we're going to have a difference now, it involves the Physically Active Lifestyle course. I see the previous minister and I know the Minister of Tourism in his previous career, if there's no more smoke and mirrors course in the buffet table that students go to in high school, there is Physically Active Lifestyle, a half credit course that's compulsory, that all students in high schools in Nova Scotia must take. If there are any young people up in the gallery, or anyone watching at home - I don't know why young people are at home today, but let's not go there - I want to know whether the minister can honestly say that Physically Active Lifestyle, as a course, meets the expectations that this government has outlined, that that Minister of Health Promotion has outlined, that the Minister of Education, the previous Minister of Education has endorsed. Unless you have the access to proper curriculum, unless you're looking at the fact that Physically Active Lifestyle - I will use the example of the high school that I am fortunate enough to be the member for, Sir John A. Macdonald.

We certainly don't have the facilities to offer Physically Active Lifestyle. PAL, at Sir John A. Macdonald on a number of days, is a walk in the woods, a walk in the woods. That's what they do, because the school is so overcrowded, they cannot get the gym time, of course, because they have really, let's put it like it is, a junior high gym. Nothing wrong with junior high gyms, but this is a school that doesn't have the facilities to offer the Physically Active Lifestyles course. Now, I am telling you that as far as I am concerned, that if this government and that Minister of Health Promotions is interested in getting young people into shape and having them aware, and I'm not just saying they're all out learning the rules of volleyball, I'm not saying that they all have to be out there shooting pucks in the top corner like Al MacInnis.

[Page 359]

I want you to know, Mr. Minister, that I firmly believe in the need for having, among the compulsory courses that the students get to choose from in this province - and I say it's like a buffet table, there's the meat and potatoes of math, English and, of course, the compulsory courses, but then there are the other courses that I think, at times, can be perceived by certain students as almost desserts. I won't get into what they are at the buffet table - but I honestly believe that one of the staples of a good high school education among the credit courses that these young people receive is a compulsory physical education course; one course that they can take in Grade 10 or Grade 11, or Grade 12; one course in which they can be made aware of circuit training; that they can be made aware of the life-long expectations that they have to have in a physically active lifestyle, but not the way PAL is currently being offered in this province, currently being offered in schools that do not have the facilities. I'm wondering if the minister could justify for me the PAL course in comparison to my Party's recommendation for a compulsory physical education course in high school?

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, first of all, I want to point out to the honourable member that the students at Sir John A. Macdonald will, in fact, have a high school gymnasium in the near future. Having said that . . .

AN HON. MEMBER: Soon.

MR. MACISAAC: Yes, yes, that's what the near future translates to in my language - soon. (Interruption) We've qualified that sufficiently for the time being.

Mr. Chairman, I recall that at one juncture in my high school education that French was compulsory for me to study, and I did what I could with it, I studied it. It was also compulsory for me in the university program of studies that I pursued, and so I studied it there. However, that course, not a single course, but several years of French at junior and senior, French at the university level, has not resulted in me being a person with great capacity in the French language. On occasion, I can get by, especially if I'm hungry enough, then I will manage to order something that will fill the need for the moment. However, I haven't reached the stage where I'm able to constructively engage in a conversation with somebody in that language.

I draw that illustration because, if I had, and unfortunately I didn't in my own home, if my parents had spoken the second language in my home to me on a regular basis then I would have been bilingual in the Gaelic language. That did not happen. I make that point and I make the point of the compulsory subject because I believe what we need to do with respect to healthy lifestyles is to make it a cultural objective of our society, incorporate it into the culture of our society.

[Page 360]

The course to which the honourable member refers is only a part of that whole process, and the challenge of both the Minister responsible for Health Promotion and the challenge of my department is only part of the challenge that faces Nova Scotians, and that is to come to a realization that by becoming more physically active we can, in fact, live a healthier life, we could live a more fulfilling life, but it is not something that will be achieved by forcing somebody into a particular course that may or may not have a lasting impact on that particular individual.

Now, the honourable member may be able to present a reasonable argument that exposure to the course wouldn't hurt. I'm not going to debate that with him, but I believe where all of us need to be, we need to be coming to a recognition that we all have to become more active physically if we are to improve our health. I must say that that has become a challenge for me in terms of trying to spend some time in every day dedicated to the simple act of walking so that my body can do what it was designed to do which is to be active and in the course of being active, hopefully, it will improve my health to some degree, or at least prolong the onset of debilitating diseases that may ultimately encroach upon the physique that we all possess, and that is what we are attempting to do.

So I didn't mean to ramble to this extent, Mr. Chairman, but I do want to draw the analogy to the honourable member that . . .

AN HON. MEMBER: So you're out of shape and you speak Gaelic.

MR. MACISAAC: No, I can't do either actually. (Laughter) What I'm trying to say is that the existence of a compulsory course in and of itself is not going to achieve the objective, but there is much more to be done in encouraging all of our citizens, but really the long-term investment will be to get people in the formative years to incorporate active, healthy lifestyles as part of their life. One of the things that has come to my attention, even within my own community, what I believe has been relative to the subject of physical activity, has been a mistake and that is the location of the new schools that were built in my community because those schools were built at a location in the community which requires everybody to be bused to the school.

The schools that they replaced were centrally located within the town and as a result of that most of the students within the town walked to school. So you had students who were walking every day as much as a mile, some of them two miles to school. That was part of their daily activity and yet the decisions that we made with respect to the location of the school, and I recognize there are many other factors that were incorporated into those decisions, but the location of the schools themselves has resulted in students being driven to school rather than walking to school which they had previously been doing and they did very willingly.

[Page 361]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Chebucto has approximately 12 minutes.

MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Mr. Minister, I wonder if we could have a bit of a conversation about some issues that are of great concern to parents in the central Halifax peninsula. I have in mind dealing first with the issue of the new high school for the central Halifax area and then we might also have some discussion a bit later about French immersion. So I would like to start off, if I may, with the issue of the high school.

You will know, Mr. Minister, that the two existing high schools on the Halifax peninsula, that is Queen Elizabeth High School and St. Pat's High School, have both been long identified as in need either of very serious, very expensive remediation or replacement by one new combined high school. As I understand it, the thought is that one new combined high school is probably going to be the way to go. I've had discussions with your predecessor about this and the last time we discussed it in estimates, she was of the view that not only would this occur, but that it would occur with provincial funding perhaps in the year 2005. So I'm wondering if you could give us some details now, both to me and to my colleague, the member for Halifax Needham; both of us are very concerned about this, but I wonder if you could give us your understanding of what the current state of play is with respect to plans for a new high school on the Halifax peninsula?

[11:15 a.m.]

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for the question and, first of all, I'm sure the honourable member knows this, a new school to replace the existing schools is a priority of the school board. As a result of it being a priority of the school board, it has been brought forward to us as an item of high priority and if the honourable member were here for previous discussion with the honourable member for Glace Bay and we talked about the schools that are currently under consideration by Cabinet, that based on this school's priority within the Halifax Regional School Board as it goes through the process, it is in a situation where my feelings toward it are not significantly different, or they're basically the same as my predecessor's feelings toward it. I don't know if that gives the honourable member any level of comfort or not.

MR. EPSTEIN: Thank you, Mr. Minister, it wasn't actually comfort so much as I was looking for information and I think perhaps I will just have to be very specific if I may. Unfortunately, I wasn't here for all of your discussion with the member for Glace Bay. I did understand you to be having some talk with him about priority construction lists and I'm wondering though if you can just tell me where it is that the new proposed single high school for the Halifax peninsula stands on that list, what's its rank, and what year are we looking at in terms of construction?

[Page 362]

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I'm unfortunately not in a position to share specifics with the honourable member because the entire matter is currently before Cabinet. I anticipate that Cabinet will complete its consideration of the entire capital program in the very near future and at that time, of course, I will be able to provide a very specific answer to the honourable member. What I can say to the honourable member is that in the lists that have come forward from the school board, that I do not have to look very far down the list to find that project. We try to do our best to reflect the priority of the school boards in the lists that we bring forward for consideration.

MR. EPSTEIN: Thank you, Mr. Minister, for that interesting answer. We seem to be making a very small advance in our discussion. Can I try to just clarify one point with you then, is it the case though that your understanding is that the proposal that Cabinet will be considering is indeed for just one high school for the Halifax peninsula?

MR. MACISAAC: I can say to the honourable member that that does appear to be the preferred option.

MR. EPSTEIN: I'm not surprised at that answer. Of course, I didn't think this was problematic but it was getting to be a little difficult trying to extract some specific information, so I thought we would try to clear away the underbrush and get to as many of the exact details as we possibly can. Mr. Minister, I'm wondering if you can tell us anything about the process of choosing a location for the new school that we're talking about here.

You will know, of course, that because there are two pre-existing schools in two different, although quite close, locations, in public discussion that has taken place before there has been contemplation of the possibility of using one or the other of those two sites, and yet this question of siting seems to be an open matter. It doesn't seem as if any particular site has absolutely been chosen, either with input from your department or from the school board, and other sites are mentioned from time to time. Other sites that have been mentioned are what are known as the Gladstone lands, that is former DND property adjacent to Gladstone Street; another property that has been mentioned is the community college site on Bell Road.

Everyone is aware of your government's recent announcement with respect to a new proposed community college campus for the metro area. Presumably that will have some impact on the Bell Road site, and may indeed free it up. Probably you're aware that if use is to be made of any of the lands of which the Bell Road community campus is an example that are part of the Halifax Commons, those lands cannot be moved to the private sector for their purposes. So, of course, the Bell Road site might be a candidate for a public purpose like a new high school.

[Page 363]

I'm really asking, in sum, two things of you, Mr. Minister. I'm asking if you can give us any definite information about what site, if any, the province prefers, and I'm wondering if you can give us any information about what process of site selection might involve the families of students?

MR. MACISAAC: The process that will be followed with respect to any new schools that would be built by the Halifax Regional School Board will not be different than the process that is followed in other locations throughout the province. That is that there is a site selection group put together by the school board in consultation with the department and the Department of Transportation and Public Works. That group attempts to do an evaluation of various sites. One of the factors they try to take into consideration is the suitability of the site with respect to its capacity to serve the needs of the students, i.e. hopefully being in a location where students have access to the site. That will be part and parcel of the process that will be used to locate this school. The preferences of the province will not necessarily be a dominant factor in that. There is a process and the process will be followed.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The time has elapsed for the questioning from the NDP caucus. Now I would like to recognize the member for Cape Breton West, from the Liberal caucus.

MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased to ask just a few questions on Education. I, too, am a little bit interested in the selection process and determining priorities at the school board level and, indeed, at the provincial level. As I was listening to the various deliberations earlier this morning, it reminded me of, I believe it was a little more than a year ago, when the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board had indicated that its priority list was submitted to the Province of Nova Scotia for capital school construction. Then, about two weeks after that, the member for Cape Breton North, along with two school board representatives from the Northside indicated what the number one priority was for the province in getting a school built over in his constituency. I found that a little odd, because that school wasn't even the priority that was submitted by the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board.

That having been said, what is the process? Does the province advise the school boards as to what their priorities should be when they come to the Department of Education, or do they do that based on the information that they have within their own school board, in terms of demographics, the condition of the schools or what? Could the minister give us some indication, a thumbnail sketch without a long dissertation, of how that process works with the Department of Education?

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for the question. The process works as follows, the school boards, of course, have their own list of priorities that they present to (Interruption) Yes, and it's formulated by the school boards. The boards then present their list to a School Capital Construction Committee. The School Capital Construction Committee is composed of representatives from the school boards,

[Page 364]

representatives from the Department of Education, representatives from Transportation and Public Works. I'm sorry. The boards bring forward their list, then the School Capital Construction Committee is made up of representatives from Education, Finance, Transportation and Public Works, and Treasury and Policy Board. But there is a process of consultation that takes place between the School Capital Construction Committee and the school boards. That's why I referenced the involvement of the school boards. So the School Capital Construction Committee does not do their work in isolation, but it does it in consultation with the school boards.

So they do their evaluation of the projects that are brought forward by the school boards. They then provide a prioritized list, and they also make recommendations with respect to whether there appears to be a need for a new facility or whether there is sufficient residual value in the existing facilities that they, in fact, can be, through additions and alterations, made suitable for future use. That was brought forward to us, it has been worked on over the period of the past year and a half or so, and now the complete list of both new additions and alterations is being considered by Cabinet.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, the minister certainly answered my question that his colleague, the member for Cape Breton North, would be offside by making such a public pronouncement of a new school being the number one priority in the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board if he was outside that process.

[11:30 a.m.]

That having been said, I was pleased to hear the minister say that there is a well-defined process. I would like to look at the Halifax Regional School Board. It would appear to me that it has taken a considerable amount of time to be able to develop that priority list from the school board to be able to get it into this capital construction review process and onto Cabinet. I was reviewing some of the history of the deliberations from the school board level, going back I suppose a year and a half when they started to develop their priority list that I believe is now before Cabinet, at least I would suspect it's before Cabinet based on these documents. I was a little taken by some of the comments. I will table these, Mr. Chairman, because I'm sure the minister already has them, if not, the deputy or someone in the department should have them.

I will just read a few of the notes with regard to establishing the capital projects priority list, this is February 2002, and here are some of the interesting notes: The staff recommendation is based entirely on the task outlined from the department. However, there are three issues which could impact on the board's priority in the future. One is Hammonds Plains; two, Sir John A. Macdonald High School; and three, school closures.

[Page 365]

Now, I found that a little interesting because, throughout this document, there are a number of references - this is on April 8, 2002 - this school board document, on the background decision with regards to the capital construction submission, addendum, so it seems like they made a change in what their priority was: The capital projects submission approved by the board on February 26, 2002, noted the matter of overcrowding in Hammonds Plains corridor was not addressed. It was being studied by the Research and Planning Department of the Halifax Regional School Board. The report indicated that if the study concluded that a new building was warranted that the Executive Council would score the project according to the provincial criteria and advance it in rank position to the board in the Department of Education. Now, we will go on a little further, in this same document it says that this project be advanced to the province with a score of 95 and a rank of three.

Mr. Chairman, what this appears to indicate to me is that there's considerable influence from the province in determining what the Halifax Regional School Board's priority listing should be. There's considerable other information in here that I believe will support that. As I said, when I'm finished with it I will table it for the committee. It's broken down three different ways: in terms of new construction, alterations and additions, and repairs and renovations. Then, each of the schools in question are categorized on a point score of one to 25 in each of the following categories: condition, crowding, programs and efficiency. The number one priority for the Halifax Regional School Board is to replace St. Pat's/QEH High Schools with a new school, and the total point score is 100. I would imagine the minister would have that document with him before Cabinet, or at least before the department. Then it goes through a series of other scenarios: replace Harbourside/Robert Jamieson Elementary with a P to 9 school. That is ranked on a total point score of 100. Then it goes down, replace Musquodoboit Rural High, point score, 95; replace elementary for Southend Halifax, 90; replace Prince Arthur Junior High School, 90; replace John W. MacLeod-Fleming Tower, 90; replace elementary for north end Dartmouth, 90.

Now, let's go into the alterations and additions category. Sir John A. Macdonald, point score, 100, now that's the maximum that would be considered; Lakeview-West Chezzetcook, 93; Waverley Memorial-L.C. Skerry, point score, 90; Sycamore Lane, a point score of 90; Sunnydale Elementary, a point score of 88; Atlantic Memorial-Terence Bay, 85; Southdale-North Woodside Elementary, 80.

Mr. Chairman, on the repairs and renovations we have: to renovate Bedford Junior High School, point score, 100; renovate Prince Andrew High School, point score, 95; renovate Caledonia Junior High School, point score, 93; renovate Clayton Park Junior High School, 90; renovate Ellenvale Junior High School, 90; and renovate Duncan MacMillan High School, 90.

Mr. Chairman, what I find interesting about the other pieces of information attached here is that there has been considerable movement about the priority list within the Halifax Regional School Board based on activities and interactions with the Department of

[Page 366]

Education. So my question, point blank, is, did the Department of Education at any time make any direct intervention through its staff member who represents the Department of Education at school board meetings and at the school board level - I believe Mr. Cochrane, the Deputy Minister, would be familiar, it's an issue I raised with Mr. Reid on a previous day when he was CEO of the board - to influence the priority listing to satisfy the provincial priority listing to ensure seamless continuity between the province and the school board, to ensure that there would be very little disruption or questions asked on a future day, whether it be for political considerations, whether it be in terms of changing demographics, or whatever.

We, on this side, may have our opinion and think it's political, we have the right and duty to raise the spectre of that, but the minister also has the right and the duty to rebuff that and provide some data to support the priority listing. Given the fact - and I will leave that question - and I premise that in part because of the deputy minister's comments yesterday that he couldn't even tell us what the priority listings were from the school boards. Now, I can appreciate what the deputy minister said, that he can't discuss any document that's before Cabinet. Well, these listings submitted by the individual school boards are not Cabinet documents. They are public documents submitted on behalf of the stakeholders in the respective jurisdictions. I would ask the minister, number one, if he could answer the first question and, number two, if he would be willing to table the list, not the ones that are before Cabinet, and I appreciate Cabinet confidentiality, but simply the list of all those that have been submitted?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Honourable member, before I recognize the minister, would you permit time for an introduction?

MR. MACKINNON: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Natural Resources.

HON. TIMOTHY OLIVE: I thank the honourable member for Cape Breton West and the Minister of Education. It gives me great pleasure to introduce to you and all members of the House Mr. Tom Rissesco from Dartmouth. It may be quite appropriate that Mr. Rissesco is here in the House during the Education debates since his career spanned over 30 years in the education system as a principal and an educator in Nova Scotia and a fine outstanding citizen that he is, still involved in community work in Dartmouth in many organizations. I would ask the House to welcome Tom Rissesco to the House and give him a warm round of applause. (Applause)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon. The Chair also welcomes you here this morning.

The honourable Minister of Education.

[Page 367]

MR. MACISAAC: I'll answer the second question first, if I might. I believe that the deputy minister undertook to provide that material to you and I will be pleased to table it in the course of the estimates.

The second question, and I need to refer back to the process that I referenced earlier with respect to how schools are dealt with through the School Capital Construction Committee, the board does present a list to that committee, and that committee, in consultation with the board, does review the list. The school board's list, of course, is a list that needs to be integrated with the list of all the school boards within the province. The role of the School Capital Construction Committee is to carry out that integration and to provide another priority list which incorporates the needs of all of the school boards within the province. In the course of that activity, there is an ongoing evaluation as to whether - I believe we had 30 requests for 33 new schools in the province and there is not the fiscal capacity of the province to be able to meet 33 new schools in a timely fashion.

Part of the consultation that takes place and part of the work of the School Capital Construction Committee is to determine whether or not a request for a new school could, in fact, if the needs of that school board could be met through the additions and alterations program, in other words, is there sufficient residual value in a school to enable it to be used through a program of alterations and additions and provide a long life to that school and allow that school to continue to serve the needs of the community in which it is located.

That process, of course, requires ongoing discussion, and the deputy minister does play a role in carrying that discussion between the Department of Education on behalf of the School Capital Construction Committee and school boards. He does not, however, do all of that consultation. A great deal of it takes place in the process of the School Capital Construction Committee formulating their own listings. But, indeed, there are opportunities, appropriate opportunities for the deputy minister to communicate with school boards relative to decisions on the School Capital Construction Committee's list with respect to decisions related to new school versus additions and alterations. That process is ongoing.

I might join the members of the House in welcoming Mr. Rissesco. I've known him for quite a number of years and he and I share a mutual friend in St. John's, Newfoundland, Mr. Gerry Duggan. I'm looking forward to seeing Mr. Duggan this Fall.

[11:45 a.m.]

MR. MACKINNON: Essentially, if I interpret in part what the minister has said, is the Department of Education is playing a more active role in deciding what the school board's priority is, particularly for the Halifax Regional School Board, than he lets on. I referred to a letter dated January 9, 2002, from Charles Clattenburg - again, this will be the package, I will table it when I'm finished - to Mike Flemming, Halifax Regional School Board, where was asked to either confirm the priority list developed by the province from

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the school board's September 2000 submission, or prepare a revised priority list and submit it to the Department of Education by February 15^th.

So, it appeared to me that what happened here is the province set out what the priority was and sent it back to the school board and said, this is what we would like, so you tell us if you're going to be happy with that, otherwise, you give us your priority list. That seems to be a reversal in process, where the school boards determine their priorities and then sends them up to the provincial level. Now we have the province determining the priority for the Halifax Regional School Board and asking the school board to approve it and send it back up so they can bring it before Cabinet and decide how they were going to appropriate the dollars.

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, if one were to take a snapshot of a process then, indeed, you may get an entirely different perspective of what is happening as a result of that particular snapshot. You could, for instance, take a snapshot of a person, and if you looked at the snapshot it might appear as if the person were falling but, indeed, the person may have been in the act of getting up. There's no way of telling as a result of that particular snapshot because you're not able to put it in the context of the entire process. A letter, the piece of communication which the honourable member referenced, is part of an ongoing communication.

The member must understand that the school boards do establish their priority list but it is the responsibility of the province to take all of those lists and establish a priority list throughout all of the province. For example, is the number one priority of the Annapolis Valley Regional School Board more important than the number one priority of the Strait Regional School Board? That's the decision that the province has to make; similarly, with all of the other projects that are brought forward.

The other factor that the honourable member must appreciate is that the needs of school boards relative to schools and facilities is not a static situation. It is a situation that in fact changes over time. The first list that was formulated by the School Capital Construction Committee was a list formulated in the year 2000. The list that is currently being considered by Cabinet is a more recent list. So, obviously, there was a need between the year 2000 and the year 2003 to have communication between the boards and the Department of Education to confirm that certain priorities remain priorities of the board, or to confirm that the board has had good reason to alter some of their priorities and their needs have changed somewhat. So there is a need for communication to occur in that process. I would suggest to the honourable member that you will find instances of communication that take place among the boards and that is something that is an ongoing process.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, Mr. Chairman, with all due respect to the minister, that's the biggest piece of political bafflegab I ever heard. This is what the Halifax Regional School Board committee concluded, that it was in the best interest of the board to modify the

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September 2000 approach to conform to the provincial process. In other words, they were essentially saying that if they wanted to get their list approved, you do what the province wants or else. Just to go in line with the minister's logic about a moving target, let's go a little further down the road and look at what's happening with other schools in the Halifax Regional School Board, such as Hammonds Plains Consolidated School which now has five portables and will require more in the near future and I'm not sure if part of that issue had been addressed yet or not so, you know, I subject myself to that correction.

Then there is also the Madeline Symonds Middle School which will require portables to accommodate the bulge that is currently housed in portables at the Primary to Grade 4 level. The Grade 10 level, which is Primary to Grade 9, are split between the two buildings, each of which has 21 regular classrooms. So if he wants to talk about a moving target, both of these should be top priorities before the Department of Education coming from the Halifax Regional School Board and the numbers, which I will table, support that. The demographics and the expected population growth I suspect would not only support that, but would pretty well guarantee that they be top priorities at the Cabinet level. Can the minister confirm if either of those two schools are being considered by Cabinet given the rather concerning information that's been supplied by the Halifax Regional School Board to the Department of Education?

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I believe I can do better than that. I believe I can indicate to the honourable member the information that is known by most people in the Halifax area, that we in consultation with the school board, in order to accommodate the school board's planning, found it appropriate to commit to the building of the Hammonds Plains school and that commitment which is a Primary to Grade 9 school would in fact look after the other schools which the honourable member referenced. I want to point out to the honourable member that we did that early because the school had to make some boundary changes for future reference and they needed to know what the status of that school would be in order to carry out those boundary changes. So not only is it a priority, it has been announced and the planning is underway for the construction of the school.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I think I made that notation when I stood, that perhaps that first issue was addressed, but as the minister has indicated equally so, it's only an announcement and it's a futuristic thing. I think if he were to look very carefully at the comments that were made by his deputy yesterday at the Public Accounts Committee, lots of announcements, but all those announcements won't be reflected in this year's budget in terms of capital commitments.

They're futuristic, you know, we're talking into 2005 and beyond and I think it's a good thing the deputy is here because he can correct me if I misinterpreted his comments, of all the schools that have been built so far under this government, only two new schools were effectively built under the tenure of this government and the rest were commitments from the previous administration. So given the fact that if we're able to build 39 schools, or at

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least commit to, and I do appreciate the deputy minister's comments yesterday saying that not all of them are completed, I think it was 10 or 11 that still had to be completed under this administration. (Interruption) Ten. So 29 in four years, 29 in five years is a lot better than the number that was built under this particular administration which would be 12. So you're building, you know, less than half.

Given the fact that the number one priority for new construction from the Halifax Regional School Board is in fact the replacement of St. Pat's and Queen Elizabeth High, can the minister confirm if what they've submitted is the number one priority from the board, that is the new school on the peninsula that the minister is talking about?

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, that school in fact is the number one priority of the Halifax Regional School Board and the priority list that we will develop will be developed with the understanding that that is Halifax's number one priority and, as I indicated, there are other school board priorities that have to be taken into account. I would also suggest to the honourable member that commitments are of significant value. When we assumed office, there were commitments of 17 schools made by the previous government, commitments that while they did not have dollar values assigned to them, or a method of financing identified, were in fact for the most part met entirely by this government and they were built.

We, of course, will have additional schools to come forward in the very near future and we will make commitments to them. Our commitments will have a method of financing associated with them, with appropriate dollars identified into the future, and so I would respectfully suggest that a commitment that we make is as good as any commitment that they might have made and we in fact went good on their commitments and built the schools that they brought forward and we intend to go good on our commitments and build the schools that we commit to as we move forward from this particular juncture. At any rate, I believe I have confirmed to the honourable member the information that he needed.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, he certainly has. He has confirmed that the schools that we identified for construction, even though they weren't completed and all the financing wasn't in order, it was good value for dollar because the people needed those schools and the government agreed with what we did in the previous administration and they fulfilled that obligation and I congratulate the minister for that. (Interruptions)

Well, Mr. Chairman, you know, the socialists, and I don't want to get off with rabbit tracks, but the fact of the matter is, and the Auditor General has identified that point about the risk management and that was the biggest problem with the P3 process, the fact that it came down as capital rather than operating in some of the cases. The member for Halifax Fairview is still stinging from the fact that he's not allowed to ask any questions in Question Period any more. So he has resorted to just chattering across to harangue other members. (Interruption)

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Mr. Chairman, I agreed with the deputy minister yesterday when he indicated that on balance we were getting pretty good value for dollar with those schools that were constructed under the P3 process, but the concern being that there should have been more risk put over on the shoulder of the developer. I believe that was the issue and that was the issue of the Auditor General, not in all cases, but there were some cases, and rightfully so, that should have been addressed.

[12:00 noon]

Mr. Chairman, I would like to go back to the issue of the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board. They have a number of issues before them. One of the biggest problems, well, I suppose not just in the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board but across rural Nova Scotia, is the changing demographics. The population in rural Nova Scotia is declining in favour of growth in the Halifax Regional Municipality and that's been the trend, I think the first time I've seen statistics on that was coming into the early 1980s, 1984 or thereabouts, when the then Department of - I forget what, before it was named the Department of Economic Development - whatever name.

The Department of Economic Development used to keep statistics on demographics, for various reasons, but it was back, I believe it was around 1983-84 when they first started with statistics and from that day on pretty well the population in rural Nova Scotia has been declining. There are a few little bubbles here and there, like in Kings County, or Hants County. I know you go down to the front lines where the school boards are. What is the Department of Education doing to ensure that the quality of education is maintained at the same level in rural Nova Scotia as it is in urban Nova Scotia? The minister will, I'm sure, remember the two schools of thought through the Graham Commission report and the Walker Commission report and that's an ever-growing concern in rural Nova Scotia, and I would ask if the minister could outline what his department's plans are to ensure that disparity doesn't get any worse than it is today?

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for the question and I will indeed provide him with an update as to what the department is involved in relative to this concern. I do, however, want to point out to the honourable member that it is not a concern that is isolated to Nova Scotia. It's a concern that has a very significant impact on a lot of our provinces and in various parts of our province. Indeed within our own province, the declining enrolment issue is something which is really affecting all parts of the province. Even in the metro area where we experience significant growth, the projections will show that there will be a declining school population in the metro area. So, you know, it's a province-wide phenomenon that we're dealing with.

Now, within the periphery and within areas of low population concentrations, the challenges are much greater and I can tell you that I attended with my colleagues from across the country, a meeting of Ministers of Education for the provinces and the territories, in

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Quebec City where the sole focus of that meeting was to deal with the issues of declining enrolment, declining population, and it was an extremely interesting meeting because we were exposed to quite a number of ideas and approaches being taken to this particular problem right across the country.

If you look at the Province of British Columbia, which we consider to be a province of considerable growth, the fact is that within the demographics of British Columbia you have declining enrolments occurring in areas of central and northern British Columbia and that is providing real challenges for them and part of their challenge, of course, and part of their approach is to use the technology related to distance education in order to address this, but their challenge is the challenge of having the required infrastructure in order to deliver distance education programming in their areas. We, to a lesser extent, have that problem in this province because we have a very significant distribution of wide-band communication within this province that will enable us to use technology relative to delivery of distance education. We still have challenges to overcome with respect to that and certainly in dealing with these problems, as articulated, in the jurisdictions of the Yukon, Nunavut and the Northwest Territories, you have situations where they have very, very real challenges in terms of dealing with delivery of education in areas of declining populations, school-aged population, and the solutions that are being approached there are very challenging.

In particular, we have been working closely with the Province of Ontario and we think of the area of the golden horseshoe of Ontario as being an area of considerable growth and a concentration of population but, of course, Ontario is a vast piece of real estate within this country and there are parts of Ontario where they have very, very significant challenges with respect to the delivery of education in certain portions of that province and similarly with the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and Newfoundland, perhaps more acutely than any, is experiencing the depopulation of that area.

So my point is that there are a lot of people out there who are attempting to find solutions to this particular problem and I can say that we're spear-heading an analysis of the impact of declining student enrolment and program delivery as to, you know, how we can ensure that our students are getting the programs that are available despite the fact that the schools' populations are declining and the capacity to be able to deliver a variety of programs within schools whose population is declining is a challenge.

It's an area of concern across the province and we're working together with our partners to find strategies in order to deal with that and it's an area of concern for all the stakeholders - teachers, parents, communities, school boards and government. We have asked all of our partners to work together to address this particular issue and some of the approaches that we have to consider are things like alternate forms of funding, including program funding, that may be part of a recommended solution to the problem, the need for a forum of program funding that has been voiced by some of the committee members. I can say that this committee that we have put in place is chaired by Mr. Jim Burton who is based

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in Sydney and works with the two school boards, both the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board and the Strait Regional School Board. Both boards, of course, are experiencing the problem of declining enrolment more acutely than anyone else in the province. As I indicated, the committee's work has included reviewing initiatives that have taken place within the Province of Ontario and the Province of Newfoundland.

So, Mr. Chairman, I believe it's appropriate for the honourable member to ask questions in this area because it is an area of huge concern to all of us and to all jurisdictions responsible for the delivery of education right across the country.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, what the minister has just said is that they haven't been able to fulfill one of the commitments from the blue book, you know, this infamous blue book from the last election that said it would be reviewing funding formulae to protect schools and areas of declining enrolments from detrimental and, ultimately, reductions in teaching staff. That strategy would be developed during the term of this government.

The minister has just indicated a few moments ago that they're developing a strategy. I will leave that, given the fact that the minister has essentially indicated that they don't have a strategy to deal with it at this point, and they're at the end of the mandate. I guess that pretty well says that's at least one commitment that the government has not made, one of many. (Interruptions) Well, the minister is making prognostications that maybe they might be here this time next year, before the election, but that doesn't seem to be the sense of what we're getting from some of his colleagues.

An interesting point that's been raised on a number of occasions, one I raised it with the deputy minister at the Public Accounts Committee yesterday; another issue I raised with Mr. David Reid, the former CEO of the Halifax Regional School Board, is the province's desire to take over control of transportation and facilities from the school boards in a way to achieve greater efficiency. Would the minister be kind enough to tell us at what stage of discussion is this issue between the minister and the chairmen of the respective school boards?

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, we are in consultation with the school boards relative to this particular topic. We are required, of course, to have something in place by the Spring of 2004, and it is our intention to be ready to do that. There are a number of options that are being considered. I just want to back up to the previous question and indicate to the honourable member that we indeed plan to have the report of that committee ready for presentation in the very near future. You can check that off as one being done.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to rush right to the book, Page 19 or wherever, and check that off, because I think that's very important. They haven't done it the entire mandate and the election is perhaps a month or so away. He's going to get something

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together to say that he's doing something, but the fact of the matter is they haven't addressed the issue at all. Aside from the politics of it, I think that's very concerning for rural Nova Scotia. I would think it would be of considerable concern to some of the Tory backbenchers who live in rural Nova Scotia where their communities are affected in favour of the growth areas.

Mr. Chairman, the minister didn't answer my question on the issue of transportation and facilities. My question was, what discussions did he have with the chairmen of these boards or what correspondence? Is there any paper trail or any official representation between the minister and the chairmen of these various school boards? I know there have been discussions within the department, but what deliberations have taken place between the minister and the chairmen of these boards?

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I am attempting to visit with the school boards as my time in the department progresses. In the process of meeting with the boards, we are obviously meeting with the chairmen. I'm meeting with the chairmen and superintendent of a board on Tuesday morning as a matter of fact. The paper trail perhaps is not as good as the road trail in terms of doing it, but we are involved in consultations with them, and the subject you reference is the subject matter that is discussed with the boards. I hope, in the very near future, to have closed the loop with respect to those meetings.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, the minister says he's hoping to close the loop. What he is saying is that he has not, as Minister of Education, had any official dialogue with the chairmen of these boards on the issue of transferring responsibility of transportation and facilities to the province away from these school boards. Am I correct in that?

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I must confess, I thought the honourable member was referencing the issue of governance with respect to boards. I apologize. That was the question that I was answering. The broader question of how we care for our facilities in the future is a matter which we will be considering, and we will be looking for the input of school boards with respect to that, but I can't say that I would describe the process at this juncture as being a formalized process.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, at least the minister is conceding that the province is contemplating that issue of taking over transportation and facilities. That's what he's just indicated, that they're considering that. I will let Hansard reflect exactly what the minister said, not myself, but that's my interpretation of it. Given that seems fairly consistent with what the deputy minister indicated at the Public Accounts Committee yesterday, is consistent with the testimony that was given by the former CEO of the Halifax Regional School Board nearly two years ago where he indicated he was having discussions with the deputy minister, the present deputy minister, on this very issue.

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I would think that the chairmen and the elected school board members from all the school boards across the province would be quite concerned about the responsibility that they now have will be taken over by the province. The deputy minister indicated at Public Accounts Committee yesterday that the government has to think "outside the box", innovative ways to be able to get control of the financial situation, this ever-growing problem with the $500 million deferred maintenance. He alluded to the fact that he saw the school boards as a problem to this issue. The only way to resolve that problem is to either get rid of school boards, he didn't say that, or to take that responsibility over themselves.

What the minister has just indicated is very consistent with those deliberations that have taken place between the deputy minister and CEOs of the various school boards across the province. Unfortunately, the minister has never made an official communiqué to the chairmen of the school boards advising them of what the province's intention is. It's going to be all unveiled in the Spring of 2004; in other words, in the next budget. That's what the minister is alluding to, otherwise, how else will the government be able to "think outside the box".

I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the school boards are in for one heck of a shock. They're in for one heck of a shock as to what this government is contemplating on doing. They're going to strip the school boards down to a shell. This has been going on - not just from a few general conversations, people musing back and forth about different scenarios - this is something that has been going on for the best part of this government's mandate. The deputy minister has confirmed that he has had deliberations with the CEOs of these boards.

Would the minister please apprise members of the committee as to what official correspondence the deputy minister has on hand in terms of a measure of the results of his deliberations with these CEOs that he referenced yesterday at the Public Accounts Committee?

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, the subject to which the honourable member refers, as I understand, there is a letter from my predecessor to the board chairmen indicating that we would be informing them as to how we're going to deal with the changes that have to take place with respect to governance in the Spring of 2004, and that we will be in discussion with them as we contemplate that course of action. A part of that course of action, of course, is to evaluate what has gone on in the pilots, and also to take into account the message from the Auditor General with respect to the issue of maintenance. As the honourable member indicated, we inherited a $500 million shortfall with respect to deferred maintenance. We have put an infusion of $290 million toward addressing that shortfall in our term as government, and we will continue to address that shortfall and we will close the gap.

How we deal with it, in a matter of governance into the future, there are a number of options - dedicated funding is one option that's being considered. Whether we have achieved the level of success, or to phrase it another way, we would want to do a complete evaluation

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of the level of success that has been experienced in the pilots relative to how the matter of properties was dealt with under that form of governance. So the honourable member is correct, there is a lot to deal with here, and we will, in consultation with all education stakeholders, deal with that as we move forward.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, would the minister be kind enough to table that letter that he sent to the school boards, for the committee here?

MR. MACISAAC: The letter is one which was written by my predecessor, and I will be pleased to find a copy of it and make it available to the honourable member and to the committee.

MR. MACKINNON: Would the minister endeavour to make that available, let's say by Tuesday of next week?

MR. MACISAAC: That seems to be a reasonable objective, Mr. Chairman.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I will essentially conclude by saying, I must say that this is going to be a significant and somewhat dramatic change in the way school boards will be operating in the future. I'm not sure if school boards are fully apprised and fully understand the magnitude of what the minister and the government is proposing, taking over ownership of all the schools, management of all the schools and the transportation systems and the financing of all this here, and just leaving the curriculum with the school boards. The school boards will be a shell of what they are now. This is one step further to centralizing control of education in an office tower in downtown Halifax.

I'm not so sure how the minister is going to be able to come to terms with this proposed strategy for schools in rural Nova Scotia and maintaining a high quality of education in rural Nova Scotia. They're talking about going back to the people on one hand, and, on the other hand, they're stripping everything from the boards. I'm not so sure if this issue has really caught on with the boards at this juncture, but I find this very concerning.

Mr. Chairman, I realize my time has expired, and I do thank the minister for answering my questions. I look forward to coming back on a future day.

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I want to indicate to the honourable member that we have an obligation to respond to the recommendations of the Auditor General, and we are responding to those recommendations. We have not made any definite decisions with respect to what form that response will take. To say that ideas are under consideration is not to say that any conclusions have been reached. Indeed, we would be remiss if we were not to explore a variety of options with respect to addressing the concerns raised by the Auditor General, concerns that are recognized by school boards, by the government, by all stakeholders in the education community.

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So the honourable member can allow his imagination to run where it will. We have not reached the stage where we're prepared to focus on one particular course of action or another, other than to say that we are indeed exploring a number of options with respect to this. I will say, Mr. Chairman, that enabling school boards to focus on the delivery of education, without any other distractions, is a model that I believe is worthy of considerable consideration. I would not describe it as being a shell of an operation. When asked how I enjoy this portfolio, indeed, I have often said that I would love to have more time to spend on Education rather than the work of the Department of Transportation and Public Works, but that's a reality that I face and it's a responsibility I have.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We will now shift to the New Democratic Party.

The honourable member for Halifax Chebucto.

MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Mr. Minister, despite your hopes to avoid the work of the Department of Transportation and Public Works, I think that's, in fact, where you and I left off about an hour ago, and I would like to redirect your attention. When we did last have an exchange here, it had to do with the subject of the possibility of a new high school for the Halifax peninsula. We were discussing both process and location. I wonder if we could focus on this question of the possible availability of the community college site on Bell Road.

I'm wondering, with respect to the newly announced central metro community college for Dartmouth, whether you can tell me what timetable is contemplated for the occupancy of that site by the community college? Just to clarify for you, Mr. Minister, of course what I'm talking about is the proposal to use some or all of the site of the Nova Scotia Hospital, I'm sure you're familiar with that. What I'm wondering is what timetable is contemplated for that?

[12:30 p.m.]

MR. MACISAAC: The honourable member is correct when he suggests that once that new site is completed we will have increased our capacity there and it will allow us to make certain decisions and moves with respect to other existing facilities. I can tell the honourable member that it is anticipated that facility will be occupied in September 2006.

MR. EPSTEIN: Just to try to be clear about this, Mr. Minister, because I didn't follow all the details of the announcement with respect to the community college, and I'm wondering if you could help me. Is it contemplated that the facilities that are part of the community college system that now exists in the building on Bell Road will be vacated as part of the process of new construction?

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MR. MACISAAC: I want to thank the honourable member. I guess it's important to distinguish the role of the Department of Education with respect to the operation of the Nova Scotia Community College, which operates with its own board of directors and president and staff. The relationship between ourselves and the Nova Scotia Community College is one where we are a funding agent and we attempt to meet their budgetary commitments with respect to their operations. We have committed funding with respect to the expansion program that they have; however the details of how they are going to articulate those expansions are answers which will be forthcoming from the community college in the course of time.

Whether the community college has in fact taken a definitive decision with respect to this is something I could attempt to inquire about, but it is their decision.

MR. EPSTEIN: I don't know that I actually can thank the minister for that answer. I have to say it struck me as perhaps not as fulsome as it might have been, and I have to explain this to the minister because I find it hard to imagine that the province would have committed itself to a sum of money and a site and the size of that site without a serious understanding of what it is that the board of directors of the community college system had in mind. I would have thought it impossible for his department, his government to have made the commitment and the announcement that it made without understanding which of the metro facilities that were pre-existing as part of the community college system were going to be moved to the new site. There aren't all that many of them - there's the Dartmouth Akerley site, there are the two Halifax sites, and there may be more - I'm not familiar with all of them, but I would have thought that it would have been fairly basic to the structuring of what the government had committed itself to in terms of the old Nova Scotia Hospital site, that there be some understanding of that.

I'm at a little bit of a loss to completely integrate the minister's answer. I wouldn't have characterized this question of the future of the Bell Road facility as being a detail. I think the minister did characterize it as being a detail - that's hardly how it would strike me or, I think, most other observers. I'd like to ask the minister again if he can't help us out just a little bit in understanding what the state of play is with respect to the possible availability of the Bell Road facility for other uses. I want to suggest to the minister that there might be a variety of answers that he could deal with if he doesn't feel that he can state absolutely that the Bell Road facility will be available.

He might, for example, let us know when he expects a final decision to be made by the board of directors of the community college system about that; he might let us know, for example, that if moving the facilities at the Bell Road community college campus to Dartmouth is not on the agenda, then whether moving them to some other community college facility is on the agenda; or he might in fact confirm that the possibility of moving the Bell Road facilities out of that building is one of the items that's on the agenda of the board of directors of the community college system.

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I would remind the minister that, as I understand it, the board of directors of the community college system is an entity which is ultimately within his government's control. So I do repeat my question, can the minister help us with any more details in our knowledge or understanding of what it is that is likely to be the future of the Bell Road facility?

MR. MACISAAC: It was certainly not my intention to be unhelpful to the honourable member in my response. I guess I was wanting to make it clear that I do not have the capacity to speak on behalf of the community college. Having said that, if that's understood by all members of the committee then I can in fact suggest to you what I think might happen. I noted with interest on the day of the announcement, when I attended at the facility on Bell Road, that it was constructed in 1948. It is the oldest facility I believe in the community college system. It is anticipated that the new facility at Dartmouth would be a facility that would have the capacity to look after the needs of students at the Bell Road site. If that were to happen, then that site would be a site that would be available.

As the honourable member indicated in his previous hour, that facility would remain under the jurisdiction of the province for purposes of an educational facility and that of course creates certain opportunities that need to be pursued and examined relative to any decisions that would be taken with respect to a new facility, if one were to be determined to replace the existing Queen Elizabeth-St. Pat's facilities. So definitely there is a link with respect to all of that, but I'm not in a position to say what is going to happen because there are processes in place which need to be followed in order for events that we might anticipate to in fact occur.

So what I need to underline again is that the decisions with respect to the future of those students currently housed on the Bell Road site is a decision that the community college will make. We can anticipate what that decision is likely to be, and I believe that we will be reasonably accurate in the assumptions made by the honourable member that it would in all likelihood be housed at the new facility in Dartmouth. We can then assume that a new site for educational purposes within the peninsula of Halifax would be a potential site for any new high school, but that is not to say that it would be the only site.

MR. EPSTEIN: Mr. Minister, I think we're much closer to a happier exchange on this subject now. There are a few points I would like to emphasize to the minister about the process of establishing a new high school for the Halifax peninsula. This question of site, of course, is something that all the families are concerned about, but of course that's not the only point that they are concerned about, but I just do want to say a couple of things about this. The idea of a central location is important; the idea of a site that is sufficiently ample in size is important; and access to some recreation grounds, of course, is important. Earlier I mentioned the Gladstone lands, and one of the big drawbacks about that land is that I think it's not large enough to really accommodate sports or recreation lands, but one of the advantages, of course, of sites that are adjacent to the Halifax Commons is that there is the possibility of sports and recreation.

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So this is an important factor and I'm hoping that whatever process is entered into for the selection of a site will be one where the parents are involved and have an opportunity to be actively involved in discussion. My experience of talking with them is that they have a lot of good ideas about what it is that needs to occur and what they would like to see. So this is on the site side, and I think the minister can well understand that the siting of facilities is something that's always an actively debated, and participated in, process - so he can certainly anticipate that the parents on the Halifax peninsula will take an active interest in that. What in the end though concerns the parents the most is the quality of the education that is offered to their children, and this is their paramount concern. To the extent that the question of both selection and design of a new high school is connected with quality, that is really their underlying motivation. That is what it is that the parents are looking for.

Now the minister will know that part of what it is that is at work with respect to the design of a new high school for the central Halifax peninsula is the fact that there is going to be a new Halifax West High School and this is having some impact on the total number of students who will be available for the new central Halifax high school. The plan that has been worked out by the school board at this point is one that will see the French Immersion Program at the high school level that has been located at St. Patrick's High School re-figured so that there will be three high schools that will offer French immersion - Halifax West, St. Pat's, and J.L. Ilsley. It's far from clear that this is a satisfactory solution and I will get to this question perhaps in a little more detail a little later on, but the main impact is that under even a two high school configuration for French immersion, there would be a reduction in numbers of students attending St. Pat's High School and, consequently, a reduction in total numbers of students in a combined high school on the Halifax peninsula.

[12:45 p.m.]

What parents are concerned about is that there continues to be a high quality of high school education offered in the high school that results on the peninsula, so I just want to emphasize to the minister how deep the concern is among families on the peninsula that there not be erosion of quality of the high school offerings as a result of new building of schools elsewhere. This is an interactive process no doubt, but at the same time the high schools on the peninsula have traditionally been very good schools and there's concern that in the overall competition for resources there might be erosion of quality. I ask the minister to pay attention to that part.

I want to turn to another aspect of this question, which is the actual process of transition because, as I understand it, the school board has already decided that this Fall - in the Fall of 2003 - there will be dispersal of the French immersion high school students and in their plan that will be to three high schools, that is some of the students will remain at St. Pat's, some will be at the new Halifax West, and some will be at J.L. Ilsley. For the minister's information, many parents who have thought about this, parents of French immersion students at all three of those families of schools, have come to the conclusion that

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the resultant size of the French Immersion Programs at all three high schools tends to erode the quality of that French Immersion Program and they have now put in front of the school board the proposal that the school board rethink this. The proposal is that they think about going to a two high school model, that is that there not be an establishment of a French Immersion Program at the high school level at J.L. Ilsley until their feeder schools have developed a large enough enrolment to justify having the program at that level. I have no idea what the school board is going to do with that, but they may feel that they've already made their decision and they're not prepared to revisit it, but they may feel that the proposal has some sense.

In any event, as a result of the decision of the school board, whether it's to stick with the three high school model for French immersion or to modify it and go to a two high school model, there will be an immediate reduction in the number of students enrolled at St. Pat's this Fall, the Fall of 2003. So there's going to be a fairly significant reduction and St. Pat's is already not an enormously large high school. With the reduction in students it is feasible to consider the possibility of merging the two high schools in advance of the building of a new building.

What I'm asking the minister is whether this possibility has been considered. This, of course, would mean that some of the land would be freed-up in the sense that we have two buildings at the moment, neither of them fully utilized, and I'm wondering whether, since we're looking now at a large reduction in the number of students at St. Pat's High School starting two months from now, and yet we're not looking at the possibility of a brand new facility for at least two and, as I understand the timetable, possibly three years in terms of construction and availability for housing students, whether this possibility has come up for discussion between his department and the Halifax Regional School Board?

MR. MACISAAC: I want to thank the honourable member for his question and the significant, detailed preamble. I want to seek some clarity from the honourable member with respect to the question and the clarity I seek is this, is he asking the question of whether or not consideration has been given to combining the populations of the new schools in the Fall of 2003, regardless of future location of the new facility, or whether he's talking about combining the populations at a time that would permit, as a result of the site selection process, one of those two sites might be identified as the site for a new facility and therefore there would be a combining of the populations in order to accommodate that? I'm just not certain as to which context he placed the question - I think I understand the context, but if he could make it clearer, I would appreciate it.

MR. EPSTEIN: To the minister I can say that the possibility of combining the populations this Fall seemed to me a little quick, but I suppose it is possible if the site selection process had moved along to the point where one or the other of the two existing high school locations had perhaps been ruled out as the future site of a high school. If that's the case then it might well be possible to move the populations into the other high school at

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that stage. I don't know that it's absolutely necessary to tie the process of site selection and the process of merging of the two populations together, but if it's felt that's necessary, then it might be possible that as the site selection process goes forward there might be sites eliminated as the process goes along.

In terms of contemplated timetable, this Fall is possible, but it also seems to me quick. If we're still looking at two and possibly three years down the road before there's a new high school ready for occupancy, it may well be that it could happen in the Fall of 2004 or Fall of 2005, or, depending on timetables, Fall of 2006, if we're still looking at those years before there is a new building.

MR. MACISAAC: I want to thank the honourable member again for the clarity of his question. I can say to him that if neither of the sites of the QE or St. Pat's, if neither of those two are a site for a new facility, then we would not contemplate a merger of the student population.

MR. EPSTEIN: I take it the minister means not contemplate a merger in advance of the building of a new high school, is that right?

MR. MACISAAC: Obviously, if a single facility is built to replace those two facilities, there would have to be a merger of the populations.

MR. EPSTEIN: That was certainly my assumption, Mr. Minister, I just wanted a trifle more clarity in case there was some other possibility on the table I hadn't been aware of - apparently not.

I'd like now to move, if I may, to another aspect of education on the peninsula that is of concern to the parents and this is a further elaboration of the French immersion question, but it has to do with the closure of École Beaufort and the consequences that have flown from that.

The minister was not the minister at the time that most of these things took place but is probably aware of the issue, but I would like to give him a little bit of the background and a little bit of my understanding of how this issue has now played itself out. The question of closure of schools is always a very vexed one. The decisions that were made by the Halifax Regional School Board that ultimately led to the closure of École Beaufort was a hard-fought process and one that I think satisfied virtually no one who was engaged in the process. Certainly the families that valued the program that existed at École Beaufort and who hoped to see their children stay together in one facility have remained very upset about the situation.

The minister may recall that when the school board finally did decide to close École Beaufort it was at a time when his predecessor became involved in the process, exercising certain powers that she had, both legal powers and persuasion to try to work out some details

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with the school board. The crucial issue for the parents after the decision to close the school was the question of keeping their children together in the same grouping that had pre-existed - meaning they didn't want their school closed, but if it was going to be closed they wanted the children who were enrolled in French immersion at that level of their schooling to stay together.

Unfortunately what occurred was a redefinition of the catchment areas by the school board, and with the agreement of the minister's department. This was highly problematic because the redefinition of the catchment area meant that not all of the children were able to stay in the school across the street, that is, LeMarchant-St. Thomas; that meant they were no longer together with their former schoolmates. This has been an ongoing difficulty and it's one that is an issue that remains an irritant for all of the families involved.

What I'd like the minister to understand about this is that many of the parents who choose to send their children to French immersion have seen the actions of the Halifax Regional School Board and, on occasion, the actions of his department, as being what they would regard as hostile to the program, and the difficulty here is that the parents see the program as being partially funded by federal dollars, they see the program as adding value to the quality of education that children are offered, and yet they see a series of decisions that move their children around from school to school in what seems to be a fairly haphazard and arbitrary fashion.

One of the parents very memorably at one of the public meetings described the school board as treating their children as stocking stuffers; that is, they could just take them and move them around in order to top-up the numbers in different schools. So this is -I have to say - the very strained state of relations between parents of French immersion children and the school board and, to an extent, the minister's department. I think this is not peculiar to the Halifax peninsula, I've spoken with French immersion parents in the whole of the metro area and there is the same series of hesitations, problems, distrust, and bad feeling for many of the same reasons.

I'm hoping that the minister is going to be able to take the lead in trying to encourage better relations between the school boards and the parents. I think I have to underline something as well for the minister, which is this - I have occasionally heard comments that suggest that French immersion is a program that has appeal purely, purely to parents who could afford to send their children to private school, but who choose not to do so.

[1:00 p.m.]

It's occasionally characterized as a substitute for private schooling in the public school system and I want the minister to know that this is simply not the case. I want the minister to know that in my constituency and in the constituency of my colleague, the honourable member for Halifax Needham, there are a great many parents, often single

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parents, of very modest means who choose to send their children to French immersion because they see it as an opportunity for their children to get something of a more challenging education because they see education as the way forward. They see education as a value, they want high quality, but they expect that the school board will foster this high quality.

What in the end I wonder is if the minister can tell me whether he is prepared to engage with the Halifax Regional School Board on the issue of French immersion in a way that will foster those programs, that will justify the acceptance of federal dollars, that will act effectively upon the agreements that have been entered into between his department and the federal government, and I want particularly to know whether he has been engaged in the issue of the fallout from the decision to close École Beaufort. So, Mr. Minister, can you give us your thoughts about the current state of play about French immersion in the school system in the Halifax Regional School Board? I look forward to your answer.

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for his question. The challenge at times for a Minister of Education, in particular, is to respect the authorities that reside with school boards vis-à-vis the authority that the Department of Education has and the school boards do, of course, have the authority to establish school boundaries and to make decisions with respect to how the curriculum is delivered within their jurisdiction and that, of course, involves the use of facilities and the students who are placed in various facilities. Decisions were taken by the previous board with respect to École Beaufort. My predecessor, the honourable member for Halifax Citadel, of course, had a very keen interest in that and through her activities the board did not disperse the students throughout the system to the extent that might have occurred without her involvement.

However, the real challenge with respect to a minister and school boards is to recognize when it is appropriate for you to be able to interact with the board in such a manner that you can offer suggestions in a way that it is not interpreted by the board as you interfering with their legitimate decision-making process. That is something that is more easily achieved in one environment than it might be in another or more easily achieved in one time frame than it might be in another and that, of course, is always a challenge.

We, as a department, do share the concerns as articulated by the honourable member that this indeed is not an elitist program, it is a program that is available to all students of whatever background they come from and it is one which we want to be very diligent to ensure that whatever services students want with respect to immersion are available to the greatest extent possible. To that extent we, of course, are very anxious to interact with school boards in order to achieve those objectives.

Again, I want to underline the challenge that exists for a minister. The minister - and I know the honourable member understands this - does not have the capacity to intervene and to overrule school boards with respect to certain decisions that they have that are legitimately

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theirs to have. So that is the challenge that is before us and, again, I do appreciate the points made by the honourable member that, you know, it is a program that's available to all students and we all have to be diligent to ensure that it is perceived in that light.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Chebucto has two minutes left in turn.

MR. EPSTEIN: Mr. Chairman, challenged, the word used by the minister, is indeed an appropriate word to use when thinking about French immersion programs. I want the minister to understand that parents don't regard his powers as being particularly limited when it comes to dealing with the school board over these questions. Parents see the minister as having a huge amount of moral suasion, a huge amount of financial ability to influence the school board and indeed a large array of legal powers. What the parents are hoping for is that the minister will be moved to use them in an appropriate way.

Mr. Minister, given that we have so little time left in this portion of estimates, I just want to make one final, but I think quite important, point to you about French immersion. The fallout from the closure of École Beaufort is going to have negative impacts on French immersion at all levels of the schooling system, all the way through to high school; this is certainly part of what it is that we're looking at. Mr. Minister, as a parent of two French immersion students who are both at the high school level right now, I can tell you that I'm involved in this in a lot of detail and I have watched severe erosion of the quality of the programs that have become available, particularly at the high school level.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I'm sorry, honourable member, the time has expired for today's estimates, but the minister wanted to table a couple of documents and that's why I cut you off and, of course, Tuesday will allow you the allotted time. So I apologize for that, but I wanted to make sure that the minister had his items tabled.

MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I want to table, as I undertook to do, the active school community, the list of the schools, and the letter requested by the honourable member for Cape Breton The Lakes, signed by my predecessor, to the chairs of school boards.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The time has expired for estimates today.

The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee do now rise, report considerable progress and beg leave to sit again on a future day.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is carried.

[1:09 p.m. The committee rose.]