MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Government House Leader.
HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, would you please call the estimates for the Minister of Education.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will continue the estimates for the Minister of Education. If I may just take a moment here, the person speaking is on the NDP time. There are approximately 48 minutes of that NDP time left. The member for Timberlea-Prospect will be posing the questions to the Minister of Education.
The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.
MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, I look forward to the next few moments. Unfortunately, they're going to be short, perhaps, when I look at the issues that are presented to me as the MLA for the growing constituency of Timberlea-Prospect. I want the minister to know from the outset that although various lists in the last number of days have attracted my attention, I'm concerned again about the fact that there are issues and not necessarily personalities that we're going to get involved with here. So the Minister of Education should know that, as a past educator - and perhaps if the people of Timberlea-Prospect see it in the future, I could be an educator again - there are some major issues that I have concerns about.
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I have concerns about the relationship between the Teachers Union and the department. I've got concerns about the minister and her department, and I want to talk about curriculum and the development of curriculum. Madam Minister, I'm sure you will, hopefully, agree with me that there's no more trendy business than education. We reinvent the wheel, it seems to me, every decade, and in the years that I was in education, I have heard back to the basics, whole language, and all this reinvented gibberish. Meanwhile, the teachers who are on the front lines and in the classrooms often feel forgotten, but I've been given some advice from an important woman at home not to yell today. I'm going to point out - and I notice a certain member turning to me and saying that would be appropriate, and I will, but there are some issues I've got to get out of the way.
You very quickly explained to me last year, and I thank your department for it, on an issue called coffee. I'm not going to coffee this year. I would like, however - and these are important issues; I mean, this is a nuts and bolts issue. This is a meat and potato department you deal with. We're talking about things that are important to children. So if I can advise the minister in my wisdom as a school administrator, not necessarily as a member of the Opposition, for example, to look carefully at her budget and explain certain figures to me, I would like to check this figure out.
I would like the minister to explain to me why your department spent $29,720 on cab fees, because that's the sort of item, to me, Madam Minister, that's of some consequence. Now, I know that you or your staff will eventually provide me with an explanation for why your department spent $29,000 on cab fees, and I want you to know there are other departments and the taxi bills that they have - and they're all through Yellow Cab. I understand that, but that's $29,000 that jumps out at me and I'm going to ask that question. It's like how this debate began last week when I asked about lights in a certain ping-pong room. I certainly don't want to go back to that, but I would like you to explain, in the middle of educational priorities, why $29,720 in your department was spent on moving, obviously, yourself or staff around in cabs?
[3:30 p.m.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Education.
HON. JANE PURVES: Mr. Chairman, every government department spends some money on cabs. I venture to say that if we were located right next to the Legislature, we might spend less, but yes, we have almost 400 people working in that building and to get around the city, they sometimes require cabs.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Well, that does disappoint me. You know, that's the sort of question that a school teacher asks, and I can use his example because he said make sure you bring my name up. That's the sort of thing that Jamie Stewart of Brookside Junior High School gets in a snit about because when June comes and he hasn't got any paper, he wants
to know why the department doesn't, the department official doesn't necessarily go for a walk to another department. But let's not get overly picky here. Let's talk about another topic before I begin to talk about the ones of real consequence.
Minister, I did some adding this weekend. I was a history teacher. My figures could perhaps be wrong, but I will stick with what the calculator told me. I would like to table, and it's in my own handwriting, Mr. Chairman. I would like to table this. I would like to table the fact that the Justice Department spent $27,527 on hotel bills. The Department of Environment and Labour spent $44,912 on hotel bills. The Department of Transportation and Public Works spent $21,995. They went to three different hotels, and I hope members opposite are paying attention to this because these are the sorts of items that Nova Scotians want to hear about. The Department of Transportation and Public Works used the Seal Island Motel; they used the Prince George Hotel; they used the Maritime Inn in Port Hawkesbury. I know those figures because I'm also the Transportation Critic, but the Education Department, the very department that we are so concerned about, when we look at expenses, spends $355,597.74 on hotels.
Now, I will get an explanation, I know, from the minister on a major item like this. There are 12 different hotel bills here. There is a $97,000 bill for the Holiday Inn-Harbourview. There's a $42,000 bill for the Cambridge Suites. The Old Orchard Inn is $18,000. Well, you have them there as I tabled them. So let's look at this. I know my math is going to be questioned with regard to whether the calculator is working or not, but Madam Minister, $355,597.74 - I will assure you there's a certain high school out there in Five Island Lake that could use some of that money.
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, yes, I agree with the member opposite; that is a lot of money, but I'm not quite sure what he is suggesting we should do. These bills are mainly for teachers. They are mainly for marking, curriculum development, and professional development. We tender out for meeting places to get the lowest price. It also includes some accommodations for the Conference of Commonwealth Education Ministers that was held here the fall before last. Yes, it's very expensive, but the money is going to provide for professional development, curriculum development and marking, all of it done by Nova Scotia teachers.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Queen Elizabeth High School sits just up the hill from us. St. Patrick's High School is across the street. Auburn Drive High School is over in Cole Harbour. It seems to me that if we are going to get the best use of our facilities, and there's a conference or a marking schedule, why do we continually have to use facilities that cost this amount of money? It concerns me that if we are getting the best bang for our limited buck in Education, and this is no reflection on some of these hotels that are downtown or in other parts of the province, but I want people and members out there to notice that there's Keddy's Halifax, there's the Citadel Halifax Hotel, the Delta Barrington, the Delta Halifax,
and there's the Lord Nelson Hotel and Suites. Ah, the Old Orchard Inn. We will take that one back. There is the Sheraton in Halifax and the Westin Nova Scotian.
I see another line item in there called markers fees. But you are telling me that when marking or curriculum development is going on we can't use the classrooms at QEH? Excuse me, I have to say this. We certainly can't use the classrooms at Sir John A. Macdonald High School. Is this one of the things that the union and the department should not work closely with? Is this not an issue where we can say these are the sort of things that make parents angry? This is the sort of thing where people will begin to say why do we have to go to the Westin for this conference? Why do we have to go to the Holiday Inn for this conference? Again, I won't go there. I was going to say Sir John A. Macdonald High School. What's wrong with the cafeteria food at C.P. Allen High School?
Madam Minister, this is a nuts and bolts issue. It's one that concerns me. I want some answer toward the fact that, in my opinion, this is a waste of money from your department.
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the member opposite's point of view that if nobody took any cabs, our education system would be in better shape. Hotels also have sleeping accommodations, which schools do not have. Schools are usually full of kids, with the exception of Sir John A. Macdonald High School at the present time. As I say, we tender for the lowest cost. In the cases of these hotels, they have the meeting rooms. They have sleeping facilities, and yes, I agree, the cafeteria food at the schools may be good and there may be space in the schools, if the schools were empty. But the schools do not have the sleeping accommodation, and that's the largest part of the cost.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Is this part of the union's demand for facilities? When these meetings are held in Halifax, and they seem to be, except for just a few, always held in Halifax, these teachers' conferences or whatever. I am in the business, or was in the business, because people are constantly concerned about the fact within services and professional development days and those sorts of things. And on those days, Madam Minister, let's be clear; those schools are empty. Those schools are empty on those professional development days. I understand your comment about the fact that if teachers are brought here for professional development and curriculum development and it all takes place in the capital city, yes, they need a place to sleep.
But is that part of the union package, and is the union the one that perhaps I should be writing and asking this question to? Maybe Mr. Forbes would be the one, if Mr. Forbes is a regular watcher of Legislative TV. Let's work together here. What's best for the kids? - $355,000 when it comes to hotel fees or curriculum development? Is that how it should be driven? Can you explain to me the role of the union when it comes to where major conferences and major curriculum development initiatives take place if on a curriculum development day, which they traditionally hold - and the date escapes me, but it's in October
- schools are empty? Why are we meeting in the Westin Nova Scotian when we could be meeting at QEH?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, I certainly don't think that union demands have anything to do with this. We bring teachers in from all over Nova Scotia to stay in Halifax. If we were so concerned about hotel costs that we didn't want to do that, we would only have these sessions with Halifax teachers who, of course, live here. That's not what we want. I agree with the member opposite that that is a lot of money, but it is part of the cost of doing business. It is part of testing. It's part of marking. It's part of meeting. All these things are things that teachers from around Nova Scotia have to be involved in. I do take the member's point that perhaps more could be held outside the city, but that would not necessarily be cost-effective because, of course, there would be the mileage for all the teachers having to leave Halifax, as well as the ones going to the other place. No, it is expensive, but it's part of the cost of doing business.
MR. ESTABROOKS: I don't want to continue with the wrong tone because I know we're going to work together about some situations here. In the previous budget, there was $250,000 in hotel bills. I hope members opposite are paying attention to this, too. You look at the Supplement to the Public Accounts. Last year, there was $250,000 or thereabouts, I understand, but this year, it's up to $355,000. That concerns me. It is not a small item.
I would like to move on, if I may. I've heard the minister speak at length, and I want members opposite to know that some of the things she is saying make a lot of good, common sense. But I want the minister and staff to know that there's not a teacher out there who doesn't say we should have more math time. There's not a teacher out there who wouldn't say, wow, we wish we could really get more work when it comes to basic, can we use the word - of all things - grammar? There are lots of teachers in classrooms across this province who are genuinely concerned about standards. The concern, however, Madam Minister, is this. There is always the top-down approach from the experts at the Trade Mart who are, after all, top-down. This is where we should go with such courses as career life management.
Now members opposite excuse me for pointing. Those members opposite who have children in high school preparing to go to university or to go out and get a certain career trade, they have to have so much math. They have to have sciences. Then, of course, and rightfully so, it's important to have that history course in there. In the midst of this, there is this - and it comes from the department - brainwave out there that we are going to make a course in high school called career life management compulsory. Madam Minister, your staff should know that in many schools, one in particular, the course is looked upon as a joke. Teachers are saying, what are we doing this for? We could use that time more effectively in math. We could use that time more effectively - and I know the Minister of Tourism and Culture agrees with me - by having physically active lifestyles, called phys. ed. However, that top-down approach, when it comes to curriculum development, remains a concern from teachers.
I heard you say that you're consulting with many teachers by bringing them here. You can't have this copy, Madam Minister. I was given this book by David Pratt. If I use it, I have to table it and I'll never get it back, will I? It's called Curriculum Design and Development okay? I am in no way a curriculum expert. Under no circumstances can I develop curriculum, but I want you to know that teachers on the ground, in the classroom, know what works. They have to feel that they are being listened to. When you're given textbook after textbook and you've been a practicing teacher for 20 years and suddenly they come in and say - and they said this, Madam Minister, let's be clear. People from curriculum said that you must not correct the spelling of children in elementary school. There were teachers - and I know your deputy was not in the province at the time - who were absolutely shocked. What are you talking about? There's a difference between their and there, the possessive their and there, yet they were told, let children express themselves. Let them express themselves. For heavens' sake, don't correct their spelling.
[3:45 p.m.]
I can use the examples of two exceptional young women who graduated from Sir John A. Macdonald High School, who had wonderful elementary school teachers - one in particular, a Mrs. Boutilier from Boutilier's Point. Where else would she be from, with a name like Mrs. Boutilier? We requested - and I guess I must admit to members opposite I used a little bit of influence to make sure that my kids were taught by old-fashioned teachers - with no emphasis on old - who would correct the spelling of the kids.
We have to be concerned about their self-esteem; we have to be concerned about them expressing themselves. You are teaching the whole child. Let's be clear. That holistic movement, obviously, is recycled from B.C. to Ontario to Nova Scotia, which was brought forward by somebody in the curriculum development department at the Trade Mart Building. That's something that must cease.
Madam Minister, you're bang on with insisting on some of the things that you have said publicly, but there are members, if they are still over there in that building - I've said this before; the trends in education at times - I'm sure that with my grandchildren, there will be some kind of reinventing of the wheel. Madam Minister, you do believe in teaching grammar and you do believe in correcting spelling. That's important in your department. Is that correct?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, certainly I believe very strongly in good reading and writing skills. We have talked about grammar. I don't recall talking about spelling; I thought that might be going a bit too far, actually, although I was in a school the other day where one of the teachers said, why don't you bring back spelling books? Well, I don't know about that; I'm not a professional educator. Obviously, the pendulum has swung a bit too far the other way, and we have to go back to more time with math and more time with reading and writing. A lot of people do agree.
I would like to make a couple of comments about the people in the Trade Mart Building, and PAL and CALM. You didn't bring up the acronyms - Career and Life Management and Physically Active Lifestyles. Those courses were developed partially in response to public demand and, yes, by people in the Trade Mart Building, but a lot of those people are seconded from the school boards in the province. The secondments work back and forth. I wouldn't like to leave the impression that every person working in that building is isolated from the real world all the time.
I personally agree with the member opposite. I don't think these necessarily need to be compulsory courses, but there are other teachers and educators who feel very strongly that they should be. I think that argument will continue.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you for the answer. I appreciate that particular comment. There's nothing better than a good spelling book; let's be clear on that. There's nothing wrong with a good multiplication table; let's be clear on that. But don't ask me what nine times seven is without me thinking about it. Sixty-three, right? Thank you.
Madam Minister, I will table this. I have an interesting comment from the Kentville paper. It's a comment: Standardized Tests Too Costly for the Return? It comes from a young man by the name of Sean Bennett, who has a B.A., an M.A., and a B.Ed. He's a high school English teacher who resides in Falmouth, Hants County. I read these things with some interest, of course, because the concerns about standards are well received, but one of the key parts of any school is the school library. In the school library in many high schools across this province, the librarian has been replaced by what they call, in some circles, a library tech. That is, after all, I think, a real contradiction, asking for standards and all these important results, but your school librarian no longer exists as a position.
Mr. Bennett obviously had an opportunity to speak or was present at a public meeting of a Halifax-based parent group. One concerned parent - and I will table this, Mr. Chairman, because I'm going to read from it - and librarian asked Miss Purves about the current government's position on inadequate library staffing and services. Miss Purves replied, according to Mr. Bennett's article here, "there is little hope for school libraries in this province, no plan for designated funding, it is up to each board to make choices - libraries are not always a priority."
I understand that each board has to make those decisions, but my question to the minister is, with your continued emphasis on standards, shouldn't libraries be a priority and, therefore, shouldn't library funding be a priority? I can tell you that one of the key people for every teacher at Sir John A. Macdonald High School is Grace Rogers; she's our school librarian.
MISS PURVES: Yes, I agree with the member opposite that school libraries are important, and I agree that in many cases they are underfunded. But we do have to make choices, and individual boards do have to have some powers. We could designate library funding; we could designate the funding for maintenance; we could designate the funding for just about everything. That is something that the boards do not want. They like to have the ability to make decisions within their board; not every board has exactly the same requirements, as I'm sure everyone in this Chamber knows. Yes, it's definitely an issue. I've heard very impassioned arguments in favour of more money for libraries, and I agree with that, but I hear equally impassioned arguments in favour of more money to clean up schools and whatever. As it is, the boards do have to make their choices.
I would like to comment on the first part of what the member said when he talked about library technicians. I actually have two librarians in my family, and although they don't work in school libraries, they are in fact technicians. You take library science now at any university and you will learn how to organize information and how to organize it electronically. A great many library science graduates actually end up in the computer field. The way it is, you do have to have technicians in the library to help the kids search the Internet for information and find the right information. Yes, you need them to know about books and they have to be able to teach kids how to research, but at this stage in our electronic evolution in schools, the technical capacity is very important.
Mr. Chairman, may I take a moment to make an introduction?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect cede the floor for an introduction?
MR. ESTABROOKS: Of course, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Education on an introduction.
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, in the east gallery we have the president of the Halifax Citadel Constituency Association, Chris Musial. I wonder if members would welcome Chris to the Chamber. (Applause)
MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, I know my time is limited here. One of the very first things, when you hear from a teacher or a principal, is that you always ask, well, can I use your example? Can I bring your name up in the House? So here we go. Jim MacFarlane is the principal of Fairview Junior High School. He will even admit publicly, probably, that he's a friend of mine. Mr. MacFarlane has a concern about continued funding.
We get all the bells and whistles, up-to-date computers, and various other things that arrive shiny and new, and two years later they need an update. Two years later we need better programs because the kids are coming in and they're saying that their program at home,
whatever the particular - I know that the minister said spelling books and multiplication tables. I want to be clear with the minister. I can turn a computer on, I can send e-mail, and I can also probably do some basic functions on it, but most of the students I had in high school were a lot more computer literate than I was. But where's the funding for the updates? Where's the funding? Suddenly, the department helps out a particular school making sure their computer room is top of the line, but two years later, it's not. Mr. MacFarlane, the principal of Fairview Junior High School is in that position, he's in that position now where he's saying where am I going to get the bucks to do this - to upgrade his computer facilities at that junior high? So I'm interested in what the minister sees for the Department of Education - not just in the initial computers that arrive in these schools, but two years later, heaven forbid a year later, when the programs have to be updated.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Just before I go to the honourable Minister of Education, could I ask the Members of the Legislative Assembly to tone down their discussions? I know the member for Timberlea-Prospect certainly has said that we don't need much toning down on, but nonetheless, having said that, I do believe that the House ought to provide some decorum and tone down their voices if they can. The honourable Minister of Education.
MISS PURVES: I must say the member opposite has brought up some very good points. He's absolutely right, that is a huge cost pressure. Once you have the technology you have to be able to operate it and fix it and replace it. As he probably knows in the P3 schools the cost of the technology refresh is built into the budget and we do pay for it through the leases on the P3 schools. On our own schools, we've been very lucky with shared programs with the federal government, with the information economy initiative and we do take those costs into consideration when we're drawing up funding for school boards.
That being said, it is an ongoing issue every year, not just the replacement of the technology actually, which doesn't usually need to be done every year, but also computer maintenance staff. That was a requirement for employees and boards that didn't exist before the schools were wired. Now, of course, there have to be people employed by the board who go around and fix the computers and keep them going the same way they do in a business or in a government. So, yes, it is a continual cost pressure and it's not going to be going away.
MR. ESTABROOKS: I think the members opposite are just discussing the very relevant points that I'm bringing up because, of course, as backbenchers - although they're allowed time in here to ask these questions - these are the sorts of questions which if they have a constituency that's growing such as mine, that they want to stand. I encourage the members opposite, particularly those teachers over there, to get on their feet and ask a question or two to the minister. But enough of that, I'm wasting my own time here.
I read a resolution today as I looked forward to bringing it forward onto the floor of the House and I will read it into the record if I may.
"Therefore be it resolved that the Minister of Education explain to students, staff and parents how older schools can be effectively maintained after years of neglect with a $6 million cut in the budget."
Mr. Chairman, you know where I'm going with this and I can table that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, honourable member, it's not necessary to table that, but did you state that you had put that resolution forward today?
MR. ESTABROOKS: Yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
[4:00 p.m.]
MR. ESTABROOKS: Madam Minister, I understand that we're waiting in the community of Timberlea-Prospect. We are waiting with bated breath and it's a pretty tense situation because at 6:45 p.m. when I'm fortunate enough - and it won't happen tonight on Monday evening - the bus arrives home from C.P. Allen High School. I can wax poetic long and loud on Sir John A. and parents who are watching this or will get a copy of these comments but can you explain to me so I can explain to them this scenario. Sir John A. Macdonald's environmental assessment comes in and the place needs an immediate infusion of funds. Sir John A. Macdonald will not be able to be used in the future. The worst case scenario - Sir John A. Macdonald will have "closed" on it. Can you help me to explain or how can you help me to explain what is then going to happen? The regional school board, the Department of Education, give us, if you wouldn't mind, the Reader's Digest synopsis of the decision on the worst-case scenario that happens when Sir John A. and the environmental assessment comes forward and it has to be closed like Halifax West.
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, I've made some of my worst blunders in this political life by answering hypothetical questions and so first I would like to (Interruption) Oh, yes, everybody likes them.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable minister is aware that she does not have to respond to a hypothetical question.
MISS PURVES: At least the interim report on Sir John A. - there's nothing in that that would indicate the school could not be salvaged.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Let's go away from the environment. Let's talk about - and I see the Minister of Transportation there from Hants West and I won't go there either, okay? This is a growing community, minister. Westgate development is being built as I speak, Westgate roads are going in, pavement's hitting the gravel because of the development's
agreement with the municipality, incidentally, not because of that Minister of Transportation. The street lights are being put up, we are looking at 3,000 homes at Exit 3 of Highway No. 103. We have an old high school, we have a growing community, we have to have a plan.
So I would like to, if I may, table a letter that comes from Kevin Estabrooks - and let's be clear, Mr. Estabrooks is no relation. In fact, he's the one who always insists that he's not related to me, but I want you to know that Mr. Estabrooks and I are in the same family tree, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Saint John, New Brunswick, but we won't go there. He's on the good side. He's on the side that didn't play sports, incidentally, but Mr. Estabrooks writes this letter in a public forum, I believe, to the Halifax Herald. The letter is about the fact, of course, that education only has so much money but he says, let's set a few priorities, develop an action plan which includes accountability and go from there.
Mr. Estabrooks, as you know, was the chairman of the Halifax Regional School Board and that's the very concern we always have in growth areas. You know, Madam Minister, you are not listening to Einstein over here, but I can tell you that when you have newly paved streets, new houses going up and young couples moving into them, we are going to continue to have more and more children. BLT Elementary is one of the largest elementary schools - I could be wrong - in the province. They have 800 kids in two buildings. It's huge.
The concern comes down, of course, to traffic congestion and all the other support services. Let's face it, one of the concerns when you have a development of that size is one of these golfing communities, you're on green number nine and you've got, hopefully with me playing golf, reinforced windows, but that's one of the selling factors and the development company did it this way - the community wants to know, in the middle of that development of 3,000 homes in the community of Timberlea is there a plan for a school? Now, all you have got to tell young parents is, oh, well, the developer is so well organized that he, she, or whoever the company is, has a plan right in there for the school. That's a selling factor when it comes to building schools, but I do know that your staff and the department from the regional school board, when I called them and said tell me about the plan for a school in Timberlea, they begin to say what are you talking about?
Now, the concern comes down to this. This is a growing community. This is a community that has a number of young families moving into it. What kind of assurances do we have, do I have as the MLA for this growing constituency, that there is a plan in place to address the growing school population in the communities served in Timberlea-Prospect?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member knows that planning for schools within a school board-designated area is actually the job of the school board. Now, obviously, when it comes to new schools, the government provides the money - and for a great deal of the renovations the government provides the money, but it is not the job of the department, although we will assist whenever asked, to plan for new schools. That's the job
of the school board. However, in regard to the new development with the space for a school, to the best of my knowledge no one in the school board or the department was consulted about supplying a new school for this area.
I would like to talk a bit about our awareness of this problem. One of the problems at Sir John A. Macdonald, for example, aside from some of the remediation that needs to be done and those problems, is overcrowding. When we made the decision to build the new school in mainland north to replace Halifax West, one of the factors that weighed in that decision was to build a school large enough to accommodate several hundred of the students from Sir John A. Macdonald High School, to take some of the pressure off Sir John A. Macdonald High School, because overcrowding is part of what leads sometimes to environmental problems, air problems and so on and so forth.
So it's not that no planning is going into this process, it's just that the decision right now is can Sir John A. Macdonald High School be remediated and renovated at a reasonable cost and that's what the environmental study is going to help us with making a decision on.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Madam Minister, you know, I do appreciate your comments and it's not a hypothetical question and I appreciate the answer.
The Minister of Health is often asked about recruiting nurses and numbers are popping up everywhere. What plan does the Department of Education have for teacher recruitment?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, I presume the member opposite is asking about the relatively recent report on teachers supply and demand?
MR. ESTABROOKS: Yes, I am.
MISS PURVES: We do have $200,000 set aside this year for a program to work with the universities on training teachers in certain subject areas because I think, as he knows, there are certain subject areas that we're facing a shortage in and that includes math, science and French. So we're working on a number of initiatives to try to get students in college to pursue these specialty areas and in terms of an overall shortage, or an overall recruitment strategy, to the best of our knowledge, we do not have an overall shortage of teachers. What we have is a growing shortage of specialists in certain areas.
MR. ESTABROOKS: I had a purpose for asking that question. I hope the minister doesn't think I'm trying to lead her down a garden path, or whatever expression I'm allowed to use in the world of 2002. One of the great shortages is French immersion math teachers and I do know that there are schools in this province that when a French immersion teacher is absent, they have a major problem getting math teachers, particularly at the high school level, to come in and take over the course.
Obviously, when it comes to teacher recruitment in that situation, we're going to look at Université Sainte-Anne. We might be looking at the Université de Moncton. I mean we can be looking at other teacher training institutions, but there is a shortage when it comes to French immersion teachers. In particular, I'm aware of a case at a high school where a French immersion teacher was quite ill and actually considered coming to school because the children, I shouldn't call them children, they're 16 and 17 year olds, these young people had no math instruction for four days in French because the vice-principal, or the principal could not get a French immersion teacher. So, I mean, you recognize that as a problem? That is one of the specialty areas I assume, Madam Minister.
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, we are aware of these issues. Right now we fund way more seats at the Université Sainte-Anne than are occupied and actually there are two things going on that will help to address that situation. One is, the current merger of the Université Sainte-Anne and the Collège de l'Acadie would enable the Université Sainte-Anne to have a physical metro presence and that might actually help some of the teachers interested in French immersion.
The other thing is that we're taking a good look at, and it will probably end up restoring the five-year integrated program at the Université Sainte-Anne which was ended after the Shapiro Report and the enrolment subsequently went down. We don't know for sure if they're directly related, but the university certainly feels that it is directly related and I think that their point of view makes a great deal of sense. So we are working at it and we'll continue to work at it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect has approximately 40 seconds. Would you like a quick question?
MR. ESTABROOKS: And I've got one. When it says Boston, I immediately begin to become interested. On Page 54 of the estimates there's $11,987.94 expended to the Boston Globe and I'm wondering if you could perhaps explain to me what that is all about?
MISS PURVES: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is a program we have with the universities and the school boards to recruit teachers from the Boston States, guidance counsellors, they come up here every year on trips. We try to recruit them to the universities, to take courses at the universities. (Interruptions) It's something that's quite important to the universities.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member's time has expired.
The honourable Leader in the House of the Liberal Party.
MR. WAYNE GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I'm sure I'm not the only one who was pleased that this government added an extra $23 million to the Education budget this year, but I'm sure the obvious question that not just myself but probably everyone is asking or has
on their minds is, will there be cuts in Education this year? What we heard when the budget was tabled, $19 million more for public education, $4 million more for community colleges but, unfortunately, we haven't heard yet from many of the stakeholders in education. I'm sure we will be hearing soon from school boards, universities, teachers, parents, students, support staff and others what impact this Education budget will have on all of them.
[4:15 p.m.]
Mr. Chairman, maybe the reason we haven't heard from these groups is they haven't really analyzed exactly what these numbers represent for them. But even with this budget increase, I'm sure there will be some tough decisions made that will have some impact on the classroom, that will have some impact on the public education system, and also on the post-education system in the Province of Nova Scotia. I hope that in going through these estimates of the Department of Education we will be in a better position at the end of this exercise to better understand what kind of impact this budget will have on the public education system and the post-education system.
Mr. Chairman, I have a number of questions for the minister. I want to go directly to the Supplementary Detail, Page 8.13, under Funded Staff. I look at last year's forecast under 2001-02, the department funded 3.8 positions. Maybe the minister could explain - on Page 8.13, under 2001-02, the forecast was for 3.8 positions - and identify who this 0.8 of a position was, please.
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, that would be a person pro rated, for example someone who was only there for perhaps 7 months instead of 12 months - I'm not sure exactly, but in that vicinity.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, Page 8.13, under the 2002-03 estimates, there's four people identified under the budget item, Senior Management. Could the minister indicate who these four people are, please?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, the staff are: the deputy; his secretary, Karen; my secretary, Suzanne; and my executive assistant, Shawn Cleary.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, could the minister indicate if her former EA, Mr. Chad Rogers is being paid by the Department of Education?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, yes, he is in the next line item, called Education Renewal. His salary is in that line.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I want to move on to Page 8.4, under Education Renewal. Could the minister explain why this new section has been created in her department this year?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, I can explain that. We were actually working on that the previous year, and broke it out as a separate section this year in order to be more clear. That is, in terms of people, not a large department, but the people are focused on new initiatives that we are taking and plan to take in terms of education programming and initiatives.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, it seems this department is creating some duplication. I'm looking at Page 8.6, under Corporate Policy. This section, and I'm going down to the third line, "This function is performed by compiling and developing, through research and analysis, such information as needed by the department to address emerging issues and proposed policy or program changes." Maybe the minister could indicate to the members of the committee - to me it appears that this is a direct duplication - what part of the responsibility is? Maybe the minister could, first of all, explain to us if there is going to be duplication, and then we will take it from there.
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, we specifically broke out the education renewal initiatives because they are separate from corporate policy. The largest part of corporate policy deals with statistics, and it also deals with preparing all the information and strategies for some of the meetings. The former minister may recall going to the federal Labour Market Ministers, the Atlantic Provinces Education Foundation, the Canadian Ministers of Education conferences and so on. We call it renewal because reform is such an overused word, trying to separate those initiatives from corporate policy.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I will go back to Page 8.4, Education Renewal. This new section will provide research, coordination and support for initiatives regarding standards. I'm wondering, as far as standards, are we looking at identifying particular standards for the English side of the department, the French side of the department? I'm not sure I understand exactly what kind of standards the department is looking at establishing.
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, it has to do with the whole question of accountability and quality. It has to do with doing research on the best kind of testing we can do. It's a way of focusing the things that we're trying to do in terms of quality and quantity time for reading, writing and mathematics, grammar; some of the recent things that we've announced, the back-up is provided in this area.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I'm not trying to give the minister a hard time, I'm trying to understand. It seems to me the corporate policy side of the department, that's exactly what they do. They analyze the statistics. Certainly, they're responsible in recommending to the minister in which direction the department should be looking or going towards as far as reading skills and math skills, to name a few. I still do not clearly understand why this new section in the department is being created. So maybe the minister could try to clarify that, please?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, really, the answer is quite simple. It's to put a focus on that area so that it doesn't get lost among many, many other areas. We were partially funding this before. It wasn't shown in the estimates. It's an attempt to be more transparent to say we have this there, that is your job, and you don't want the person to get sidetracked by other issues that come up in the corporate policy area.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, is the minister looking at transferring some positions that were under the corporate policy section to this new Education Renewal section, or is the minister looking at identifying three new positions that have yet to be fulfilled, except one of them?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, no, the transfers were not direct, but we did have far more people in corporate policy at one time than we do now. The numbers have gone down from 45 to 36. So even though we've broken out the staff, we are not into duplicating effort and we're not into adding jobs where we don't need to.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, could the minister please inform the committee who these three new people are going to be who are going to head this new section, Education Renewal, in the department?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, we have Donna MacDonald. She's the Executive Director of Education Renewal and, as I said earlier, Chad Rogers, and there is an administrative support clerk.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I think earlier when this minister was appointed minister of the department, Chad Rogers was appointed as her executive assistant, then last year he was helping the Premier work on his political agenda. I am just wondering if this is just another place to try to hide this personal assistant of the Premier, within the Department of Education, or has Mr. Rogers completely been basically reassigned a new task? Maybe if the minister could clarify Mr. Rogers' new position, please?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, yes, Mr. Rogers does support the corporate education, policy and objectives. He does do the majority of his work at the Treasury and Policy Board, for the time being, but he has done a lot of work with Education Renewal and with Ms. MacDonald and will continue to do so. So really his time is somewhat split.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I'm not clear. Mr. Rogers is currently working at the Treasury and Policy Board. Is it the understanding of the minister that Mr. Rogers will be moving back to the Department of Education or if he will continue to work for the Premier's Office and supporting the Premier's Office and the Treasury and Policy Board? I guess that's what I'm trying to find out.
[4:30 p.m.]
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, as I said, Mr. Rogers spends the bulk of his time, at this point, at the Treasury and Policy Board. I have to say that we had hoped to be able to do more by now on Education Renewal. Obviously, we have funding constraints and, for the time being, Mr. Rogers spends most of his time and effort at TPB. But, yes, the salary does come out of Education and it has not been a secret. I believe it was mentioned in a government press release and certainly it's been in Frank magazine.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I think it's quite obvious that Mr. Rogers probably will not have the time to spend, technically, what he's been hired for - to provide research, to do some coordination, to support the minister in her new initiatives regarding standards, quality and accountability. So maybe the minister should certainly be looking at this very closely to make sure that if it's the intention of the department to create a new section in order to support the minister's office with focus on education initiatives, then it appears to me that the fact that Mr. Rogers is spending a lot of his time in supporting the Premier's Office that he will certainly not be able to fulfill his mandate within the Department of Education.
Mr. Chairman, again, I want to go to the minister on Education Renewal. Part of the description for Education Renewal talks about accountability. I'm not too sure what kind of accountability we're looking for, accountability for school boards or accountability for new programs. Could the minister maybe provide us with some clarification in terms of what kind of accountability this new group of three people will be looking at?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, the kind of ability we are talking about here is not to do with school boards, per se, it has to do with taking a really good look at everything we do in the system. Instead of, as the deputy minister likes to say, just measuring inputs, look at what we're getting out of the system. So it's about all kinds of accountability, even about our own accountability in terms of what kind of programs we're doing, how much time we spend, time on task - that's a buzzword used a lot across the country, but it's very important - and again, it is providing a focus and a drive and research into what we can do to improve our accountability to parents, our accountability to society for the kind of education the kids end up getting. It's that broad.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, again, I don't want to give the minister a hard time but to me, accountability means the school boards are accountable or are supposed to be, and ultimately, the department is accountable to the education dollars that are being spent in this province, but I still have a hard time to try to make the connection where Mr. Chad Rogers
will try to provide the Premier with some help, I guess, in order to try to do his job, and at the same time he's being paid by the Department of Education, and he's supposed to be doing all kinds of wonderful things to help the Minister of Education. Again, I think this is clear political interference at it's best. It's obvious we're not going to have the Minister of
Education, this afternoon, indicate that Chad Rogers is nothing but a political advisor for the Premier, who is being paid by public education dollars. I'm going to move from there.
Mr. Chairman, I want to now turn my attention to Page 8.5, Communications Estimates. Under this section in the department, this budget line has $37,000 for Salaries and Benefits for this current year, 2002-03. My question to the minister is, is this individual your public relations officer?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, the salary here is the salary of the secretary in the Communications office. Communications Nova Scotia has restructured how it puts people in departments, so the cost of the secretary remains ours but the cost of the Communications people is borne by Communications Nova Scotia.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, the Communications people responsible for helping the Minister of Education are now covered under Communications Nova Scotia. Could the minister indicate to us how many people are basically working with her, as far as PR staff?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, there are three people working as Communications staff in that department.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, could the minister indicate who these three staff people are who are responsible for helping her with her communications and public relations?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, this past year the three people were Robyn McIsaac, Leanne Strathdee, and Adele Poirier. There's recently been a change and Leanne has moved to another department, and Dan Davis has come back to the Department of Education.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I want to now turn to Estimates, Page 8.6, under Corporate Policy. I'm looking at last year, under Forecast, for that section in the department. There has been an increase of roughly - from the 2001-02 Forecast to this year's Estimate, 2002-03 - close to $420,000, $422,000. Could the minister indicate why there has been an increase in this section, please?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, in the estimate for next year, we have included that $200,000 for teacher supply and demand that we're investigating with the universities that came up in a previous question. There's also a little more than $50,000 that is a result of Civil Service wage increases, regular increases. Our forecast was lower, our forecast for this year was lower because there was an under-expenditure of nearly $200,000 through delayed hiring and recoveries for curriculum resources published in other divisions. So we had a combination of putting more money in for some initiatives, and we had some savings this year. That makes the difference between the Forecast and the Estimate.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I want to go back to the Supplementary Detail, Page 8.13, under Funded Staff. For the section, under 2001-02, we had 33.7 positions last year, and this year we're looking at increasing the number of staff being funded under that section, 2.6 positions. This section increase does not just include salary adjustments, it also includes hiring 2.6 additional staff people. Could the minister indicate why there is a need to hire additional staff in that section, please?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, there were a number of vacant positions that we did not fill. Next year we will be filling a couple of those positions, but we will not be filling them all. The estimate is going up to 36.3, and the previous estimate was 39.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I want to move to, under Estimates, Page 8.7, Corporate Services. This section provides financial management, including public education funding, grants and audit. My first question to the minister is, is this section responsible to audit the school boards throughout the province?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, this section reviews the funding provided, but it is not an auditor by any means; it does not do audits of school boards.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, they don't do audits of school boards but yet there's money under this section labelled to do some audit work for the school boards. Could the minister indicate in terms of what kind of watchdog this section does with school boards?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, this section does review reports that come in from the school boards. Grants and audit means it reviews the grants that we give, which are huge, obviously, to make sure we're giving the right amount of money to the school boards in the detailed budgets that they get, but it doesn't actually provide a function like the school board's own auditors.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I want to go to the same section, Supplementary Detail, Page 8.5, under Corporate Services. I'm looking at the line item, Grants and Audit. Could the minister indicate what this funding is for?
[4:45 p.m.]
MISS PURVES: Yes, it's the cost of the Grants and Audit Division; they do work with the funding to school boards, they provide the profile sheets, they go over and check what we're doing in terms of providing the funding, but that is largely salaries.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the minister for her answer. I want to return to Page 8.13 under Funded Staff in the Supplementary Detail. Under that section last year, 65.5 positions were funded and this year we're looking at funding 72.7 positions. Could the minister explain to us why such an increase in that section?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, we had a number of vacancies in that department and we are filling them.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, could the minister indicate what kind of vacancies these were? Were they people who had retired from the department?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, these are just normal hiring, but they were held open as a cost saving. If we don't need to fill them right away, they're held open as a cost saving in the previous year.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I want to again go under Corporate Services, Page 8.5 in the Supplementary Detail. There's a line item here entitled Facilities. Last year, looking at 2001-02, we had $1,096,000 budgeted for and in the end the department spent a little over $5 million under this budget item. This year the department is looking at spending just slightly over $4 million. Could the minister indicate what this budget line item is for?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, one of the things that happened last year in our renovations is we discovered, as we worked through the tangible capital asset policy, that certain renovations in schools didn't hit a big enough threshold to qualify for a certain kind of accounting treatment so we had to - in other words, let's just say a school had some windows that needed repair but the cost didn't reach a certain amount, those are not eligible for TCA treatment, but we had to do them anyway. So they had to go into the operational budget, and there's about $3 million in there of repairs and renovations. We went over budget last year because we had to do them, but they couldn't be accounted for in capital so we've accounted for them this year. We know there's going to be at least another $3 million in small projects that will help schools survive, but yet we can't account for them under capital policies so they're under Operations and they're put under Facilities. So that is the largest amount of the money.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I want to move on to Public Schools. Under this section, technically this is a section in the department that looks after curriculum development among many other responsibilities. Looking again at the Supplementary Detail, Page 8.13, number of funded staff, in this section last year we funded 94.6 positions and this year we're looking at funding 78.6 positions. So, technically, we're looking at reducing this section by 16 positions. Could the minister indicate if 16 positions have been cut in this section in the department?
MISS PURVES: Those numbers are largely from an area of the department called the Centre for Entrepreneurship Education and Development, the acronym CEED, and CEED is in the process of becoming a not-for-profit agency. So staff people are taken out of there, they haven't disappeared or anything like that, but they were federally funded staff. So they're moving to their own agency and not being accounted for under Public Schools.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I want to go back to Page 8.8 of the Estimates under Public Schools. We're looking at reducing the staff in this section by 16 positions, 16 positions that were technically federally funded positions - if all 16 were, I'm not absolutely sure. I'm looking at the Salaries and Benefits. For 2001-02 we had $4,514,000. So after reducing this section by 16 positions, we're still looking at an increase for salaries and benefits under this section to somewhere around $4,660,000-odd.
So on one hand, Mr. Chairman, we're reducing 16 positions under this section. So technically, ultimately it should mean less money in salaries and benefits by reducing 16 positions or transferring 16 positions, federally funded positions, into an agency. So why would there be an increase in salaries and benefits if we're looking at reducing the number of people in this section by 16 individuals? At the same time, the minister indicated that these positions were federally funded. So maybe the 16 individuals were not funded to begin with under last year's budget item. Maybe the minister could indicate, please?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, further down the same page, if you go to Gross Expenses, from the estimate from last year and the estimate to this year, the forecast, and then look at the federal recoveries, you can see that we correspondingly lose the federal recoveries, but under Salaries and Benefits they were being paid so we had to account for them, but we're not increasing the budget while getting rid of federally funded people.
MR. GAUDET: So looking further down on that budget sheet, Mr. Chairman, we see under Less: Recoveries, that budget item, the department had received a little over $6 million. We're now looking at recovering somewhere around $395,000. Could the minister indicate where the funding for these 16 individuals will now be recorded?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, they are moving to a stand-alone status, CEED, so they won't be accounted for in the Department of Education's estimates. They will get federal money to do their job and they will be accounting for that on their own.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I was asking the minister, will this new budget item stand alone, will that appear under the Department of Education's budget?
MISS PURVES: No, Mr. Chairman, they will not be part of our budget. I believe they will be reporting to us, provide a statement of some kind, but they are not being funded out of Department of Education money and so they will be on their own.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, again under the Public Schools - I'm back on Page 8.8 in the Estimates - I'm looking at the estimate for Grants and Contributions. Last year we had a little over $5.6 million budgeted, we actually spent $12 million, practically double that amount. Could the minister indicate what actually is included under Grants and Contributions?
MISS PURVES: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there are two things going on here. One is our forfeiture of federal recoveries because of the Knowledge House bankruptcy - or the Knowledge House failure shall we say - and that was offset by some operational savings that we were able to achieve, so that we end up with about a $500,000 over expenditure, but we ended up forfeiting about $729,000. We were able to recover receipted items that had been developed by Knowledge House so that - if you'll recall it was about a $1.2 million venture, and we were able to recover some of that money, but that is a loss because of the Knowledge House failure.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, could the minister, you know we have Knowledge House under Grants and Contributions, or falls under that budget item, could the minister - I don't know if she has that information here today - maybe when she gets a chance, could she provide us with a list of exactly who received funding for Grants and Contributions, out of that budget item, would she agree to give her undertaking?
[5:00 p.m.]
MISS PURVES: Yes, we can certainly do that, Mr. Chairman, and I would point out the largest contribution is to the IEI, Information Economy Initiative, but we can certainly provide that list.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, again under that section of that department, the minister earlier indicated under Gross Expenses, the Recoveries, some funding was received by the federal government. I want to more or less go through that area within that section. There's a budget item - Chargeable to Other Departments. We're looking at last year roughly $1.3 million was charged; this year we only anticipate to charge roughly $0.5 million. Could the minister indicate to the committee what exactly is being charged to other departments, you know, why is this being charged to other departments, what's being charged I guess?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, a large part of that was some of the work that CEED was doing for other departments, mainly for Community Services, but also for Economic Development, and the reason the number has gone down from, well both the estimate and the forecast is that they will no longer be doing that work for us. They may still do some work for Community Services, but it won't be coming through our books.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, the next budget line, Less: Fees and Other Charges, I'm just wondering if we're talking about something different or if this is more or less still some charges recovered from Community Services, Economic Development? Again here we see that roughly $1.8 million was collected in Fees and Other Charges and then this year we're only anticipating to collect somewhere around $450,000. Could the minister indicate where these fees - or who actually ends up paying these fees and other charges that are being collected by the department?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, there may be some charges from CEED in there, but they probably aren't the bulk of it, and I promise I will provide that information tomorrow to the honourable member.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the minister for her undertaking. I want to move to the Supplementary Detail, Page 8.7, Higher Education and Adult Learning. My first question is, under the budget item for Administration, last year the department had $578,000 budgeted and this year they have a little over $1 million budgeted, could the minister indicate why this increase in funding?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, the two biggest reasons for that increase are that the Youth Secretariat came from Tourism and Culture over to the Department of Education, and that's where that administrative cost is accounted for and also the Labour Market Secretariat at about $400,000 came over from Economic Development. We did have some efficiency savings, but that's why the number is much higher - because we got those two secretariats.
MR. GAUDET: I heard the minister talk about the Youth Secretariat being transferred over to the Department of Education, but I did not catch the second secretariat.
MISS PURVES: It was the Labour Market Secretariat, it's actually moved around a lot, but now it's back in Education.
MR. GAUDET: Under the section for Higher Education Adult Learning, we see that the Department of Education provided private career colleges with $390,000, this year they're planning to provide them with $400,000. Could the minister either indicate where this money is going or, if she does not have the information, would she undertake to provide this committee with that information at a later date?
MISS PURVES: That represents the salaries for staff in administration, for the people who look after the private career colleges. I think, as the member opposite knows, there are quite a number of them across Nova Scotia, and each year they have to file statements of their curriculum and so on and so forth and that is staff, and the reason of a slight increase, again is Civil Service wage increases.
MR. GAUDET: I want to switch back to the Estimates at Page 8.9 under the same heading - Higher Education and Adult Learning. I'm looking under Gross Expenses Less Chargeable to Other Departments. Last year we had $1.9 million spent, this year we're only anticipating collecting roughly $0.5 million. What exactly was charged to other departments, what type of expenses?
MISS PURVES: That could be work that we may have done on behalf of Community Services, but I would prefer to check and get back tomorrow with what exactly comprises those figures.
MR. GAUDET: The next budget item, Less: Fees and Other Charges. Last year we collected roughly $607,000, this year we anticipate to collect roughly $760,000. Again, could the minister indicate what fees or other charges will be collected, and from whom?
MISS PURVES: Most of this money has to do with fees for certification and re-certification of the teachers in this division and they will be going up slightly next year.
MR. GAUDET: Could the minister indicate what the next budget item, Less: Recoveries - we're looking at a pretty good, $15 million or close to $16 million was recovered under the Higher Education and Adult Learning budget, and this year we're proposing in recovering pretty well the same amount. Could the minister indicate to us where this money will be recovered from?
MISS PURVES: Some of this, I would venture to say a great deal of it, is flow-through from HRDC. Some of this money would go to the community college, some of it will go towards skill development, some of it is actually being provided by HRDC to help with the Nova Scotia School for Adult Learning, but most of those are federal monies of some kind.
MR. GAUDET: I want to, under the same heading, Higher Education and Adult Learning, move over to the Supplementary Detail, Higher Education and Adult Learning on Page 18. Under Forecast for last year, we funded 149.7 positions, this year we're looking at funding 169.3 positions. So could the minister indicate to us why an increase of 20 additional new positions will be created under this section?
MISS PURVES: Going from estimate to estimate, the increase is only two. We had a number of vacant positions in the adult learning area particularly, and most of them we have either filled or plan to fill this year. We were using, I believe, quite a few part-timers there and we are filling a number of those positions.
MR. GAUDET: It seems to me that 20 positions that have needed to be replaced certainly should have caused some challenges in that section. When you have 20 people out, I'm sure that someone - either the work wasn't being carried out or someone had additional responsibilities. The minister indicates that some of these positions are being filled, and others are only filled part-time.
Mr. Chairman, could you indicate how much time I have left?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, the Liberal Leader in the House should know that he has approximately less than two minutes.
MR. GAUDET: Again, I will remain on that page, Funded Staff. I want to move to the Acadian and French Language Services section within the department. Last year - I'm on Page 8.13 of the Supplementary Detail - 13.7 positions were paid for. We're looking at having 16 positions in that section. Could the minister indicate in terms of new positions, are new positions being created in the section of the Acadian and French Language Services in her department?
MISS PURVES: Essentially what's going on there is solidifying positions that may have been secondments or whatever. From estimate to estimate we're the same, but we didn't have all those positions filled by the end of this year.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. That pretty well concludes the time this time around, so to speak, for the Liberal caucus. Do we have further interventions with the Minister of Education?
The honourable member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage.
MR. KEVIN DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I'm glad to have an opportunity to get back up and ask some questions of the minister with regard to the Education estimates. I guess I'm just trying to figure out where to start on this session. I'm going to start with the Teachers Union and negotiations - and I'm not going to get into questions about negotiating on the floor of the House, but there is one thing that I find interesting, which was (Interruptions) Exactly.
[5:15 p.m.]
It's almost like déjà vu, because last year we had the Minister of Health come in here with a budget that identified 2 per cent each year for three years, for the nurses. Then we ended up having Bill No. 68 because someone in the Cabinet felt they had to be hard-nosed in order to enforce that 2/2/2, and we ended up getting the fiasco which was Bill No. 68, the government backing off and I think the nurses ended up getting 17 per cent over three years. I see the exact same thing happening with regard to teachers. The government comes in with its budget, announcing 2 per cent, 2 per cent, 2 per cent for three years, and it's locked into the budget. I guess my question is, can the minister explain, was it her department that put forward in their own budget that it would be 2 per cent per year for three years for the teachers?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, to the best of my knowledge, it's a decision to put wages in government-wide, it wasn't a decision by the Education Department to go it alone on something like this. A number of non-negotiated wage increases are included in various budgets in many departments this year, not just the Education budget. We took the 2/2/2 because that's been our public position. The bargaining continues.
MR. DEVEAUX: That leads to two very interesting questions. I will start with the first one. The Nova Scotia Teachers Union advocates that they actually hadn't been provided, within negotiations, with any figure estimate from the government, until they heard on the floor of the House, by the Minister of Finance, that it would be 2/2/2 over the next three years. Can I ask the minister if she's actually provided these same numbers, 2/2/2, in negotiations with the Teachers Union?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, no, obviously, heaven forbid that I would be the lead negotiator with the Teachers Union. I can't say what has been provided to them. It's been a fairly well-known, public position that that was the position the government was taking overall.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I didn't expect that the Minister of Education would be the lead negotiator, but I would hope that as the Minister of Education she would be getting regular updates and briefings on what's going on in the negotiations. For her to stand here and say that she has no idea what's going on, I find actually quite shocking. Again, if you recall on Friday I was talking about that vision thing and whether this minister actually has a vision for education in Nova Scotia, I guess not when she doesn't even have regular updates as to how negotiations are going with the teachers.
The other question it asks is, what contingency plan does your department have or your government have if and when it becomes known that you're going to have to pay more than 2 per cent per year for three years?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, again, that will be dealt with when it happens, either by the department or by the government or both. By the way, I do get updates on the status of negotiations.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I will go back to my question, which is, what will she do if either through a binding arbitration process or through the normal routine of negotiations it becomes 3/3/3 or 10/10/10 or 14/14/14? What is she going to do?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, that will be the subject of a great debate . . .
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, well, this is the problem, though, your government has only budgeted, with a very razor-thin surplus of $1.3 million, for 2/2/2 over three years. Given the 10,000 teachers we have in this province, a simple 1 per cent increase could actually put you back into the red, amongst several other things that have been identified in this House over the last two weeks - that could do the same. My question to you is, I will go back at it again, what contingency does your department have to fund any salary increases beyond the 2 per cent per year for three years?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, we make our best estimate of costs and, for the most part, we're right. (Interruptions) If, - there are a lot of ifs out there - if some airplanes fly into the centre of downtown Halifax, then we're going to have to deal with it as well. We do make our best efforts to estimate costs. Certainly we know it won't be less than the 2 per cent.
MR. DEVEAUX: One more time, Mr. Chairman. Again, thank you, I know that you make your best estimates. I would suggest to you that given the fiasco with Bill No. 68 and the Health Department last year, a good estimate would be 2/2/2 is not what you're going to be settling for, particularly if that's your starting gambit with regard to negotiations. I go back to my question, how is your department going to find the money to fund a salary increase if it is more than 2 per cent per year for three years?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, we will find it either within the department or within the government or in a shared way, if that should occur.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I want to talk a bit about the shortages of teachers. You put out a report earlier this year, and maybe the minister can explain to us, basically your report came out with the conclusion that there's no shortage, there won't be a shortage. Now French immersion, sciences, maybe there might be now, but overall there is no shortage of teachers and there won't be one for five years. Is that correct? Is that a good summation of the report?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, I think that would be a little overly optimistic assessment of the situation unless we take action, of our teacher shortage in some areas and overall by 2005, which is less than five years. Some of the shortages, I know that the member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage knows, are showing up in the system already. But they are mainly French immersion, math and science. Those are the ones we're trying to work at first.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I guess my question is - when I read that report the first thing that I noted was, I thought, a very faulty assumption. That was the assumption - and I don't have the exact numbers - it's something like 320 B. Ed students in Nova Scotia and another 230 who are learning outside Nova Scotia, and on that assumption your department has said that's 550 Nova Scotians. Assuming they all come home to teach, we will be okay until 2005. I guess my point to you is, do you think it's a legitimate assumption that all 550 Nova Scotians who are currently obtaining a B. Ed. on an annual basis will continue to work or will return to Nova Scotia to work in Nova Scotia?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, the 220, I'm told, is based on the normal number that usually come into our province. It wasn't just pulled out of the air, it's normal that we would get that many in. Obviously, again, I didn't write this report. There were a lot of professionals and a lot of groups involved in compiling this report. We think it's quite valid, in the major numbers that it has.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I guess my question is, one of the other assumptions is that all 320 Nova Scotians currently getting a B.Ed. in Nova Scotia on an annual basis will remain in Nova Scotia. Is the minister going to tell us today that that's a valid assumption, that all 320 Nova Scotians currently obtaining a B.Ed. in Nova Scotia on an annual basis will stay in Nova Scotia?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, we all know that not all students taking B.Eds. stay in Nova Scotia, but the majority of them do stay in Nova Scotia and one of the things that we are beginning to make a bit of headway with this year, and hope to more so next year, is some early hiring by school boards that requires the co-operation of the Teachers Union and the boards, but we've been able to do a bit of it this year because one of the key factors in keeping Nova Scotia teachers in Nova Scotia is being able to give them a job soon enough.
MR. DEVEAUX: I wouldn't disagree with you on hiring early and I will get to that in a minute, but my understanding of that report is it assumes that all 320 B.Ed. students in Nova Scotia will stay in Nova Scotia and if you're standing in this House today and saying that that is not a legitimate assumption, then basically you're challenging the report. My point is that the assumptions that that report was based on were faulty, you're admitting that here today, and I would suggest to you that that in itself is going to be a problem in that regard. The shortage is here now. It's going to be here before 2005 and I don't know if your department has clearly looked at this. I understand that this is, as you would call it, a report of specialists and professionals, but I would suggest to you that there are a lot of faults with the assumptions in that report.
The other thing that I was waiting to see in that report, and to me it seems like a no-brainer, is identifying in your budget a core funding for three years, maybe two, better three, that would then allow the school boards to be able - it doesn't cost anything for you to be able to say we will guarantee this amount of funding over the next three years and, in return, the school boards then are able to recruit earlier. They're able to go out and actually, because they have their budgets for three years set, instead of waiting for this budget to be passed and then having to have the school board implement their budget based on this budget and then the schools, as it trickles down, it's July before they're able to hire anyone and I guess my point is if we move to a three-year core funding of our school boards, we would be able to ensure that the school boards could recruit in the fall like they do from North Carolina, or Ontario, or Alberta, and I guess I would like to see if you have any comments about that as an option, which I think is a fairly cost-effective option, to ensuring our school boards can recruit early enough to be able to keep Nova Scotians here?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, obviously that would be a good idea if we could do it, I mean multi-year funding is something that school boards would like. It is something the hospital boards would like. We have talked to the school boards about being able to guarantee a certain number of positions but, again, we need a lot of co-operation from all the players here in order to get the teachers hired early. We are not in a position at this point
anyway to be able to provide multi-year funding in any overall sense, but working on that for teacher positions is something we can work on and a lot more work has to be done.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, is the minister saying that this is something that her government wants to implement and is hoping to implement, but it's taking more time than they thought it would, or is it something that's not even on the radar screen as an option?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, it's something that we would like to implement. One of the sticking points here is, of course, the Teachers Union wants to make sure that none of its members are laid off or let go as a result of early hires previous to that and there has to be, you know, a certain guarantee in place that that wouldn't happen and so that is the essential conflict here of trying to be able to do these early hires without seeming punitive or being punitive to teachers who are already in the system.
[5:30 p.m.]
MR. DEVEAUX: The minister mentioned earlier that she's trying other options with regard to trying to recruit early. Can she explain what those options are?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, one of the things that has happened in the last two years, or this year and last year, is that the boards actually have a good idea of their numbers quite early in the year so that the boards are aware of some of the funding arrangements that are there. So they actually have a fairly good idea of how many teachers and other staff that they will be able to hire in a year. They may not know the exact details of all their overall funding, but they have a pretty good idea in some areas.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I want to move on to the funding of universities. Your government this year hasn't even kept up with inflation with regard to the funding of universities, I think it's a status quo, not even a cost of living increase. Obviously, this is going to impact on tuition because they're going to have to find the money from somewhere in order to deal with the inflationary pressures, let alone any other pressures they may face. Does your department have some estimation or have they done an analysis, based on the funding that you have provided this year for university funding, what percentage increase in tuition university students should expect?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, as I said on a previous occasion, we don't officially know what the universities are going to be doing in the way of tuition. We've had some indications that tuition may rise anywhere between 5 per cent and 8 per cent, but that is not official, but at this point that is what we think tuition increases will be in the range of.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, funding of our universities has been fairly erratic over the last 10 years and you could go back further, but in the last 10 years particularly, and I guess my question to you is, given the serious cuts that have been made and let's face it,
they have been, given the tuition increases that have had to been made in order to cover the loss of funding from the province and potentially the federal government, does the minister's government have a plan for the long-term stable funding of our universities and is it something that her department has developed?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, obviously each year we look at the funding pressures and we know they are there. Now, the long-term plan for funding of the universities is to continue provincial support of our universities. Given the number that we have, that's quite a pressure on the government, but we have no plans to get into the amalgamation game, if that's perhaps what the member was getting at, for what would essentially be illusory somewhat cost savings. At least from our experience in amalgamation in Nova Scotia so far, I would say that's the case. However, I would like to add that we would have liked to have given them more this year and the pressure is there, but this is also a national issue, it's not just a Nova Scotia issue, the cutbacks in provincial funding to universities across the country. In that way, to some extent, the federal government has been helping out in terms of its research grants and now in its willingness to fund the operating costs of research grants. So part of our vision is to keep up the pressure on the federal government to help out in the post-secondary sector.
MR. DEVEAUX: I guess one of the problems with the minister's answer, Mr. Chairman, is that she's talking about, and the question was how do we have long-term stable funding, and she's saying we will continue to fund. Well, that's great, but the fact is that this year, for example, you didn't even keep up with the cost of living and maybe last year as well, I can't remember. So I guess my point is, does your department even have a commitment to ensure that from here on in education at the university level will be funded at the current level and maintained at that by giving it regular cost-of-living increases as well?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, at this stage in what we've been able to do with the province's finances, I say so far so good, this is a good achievement and, obviously, we would like to make that kind of a commitment to the universities. We would like to make that kind of a commitment all over the place. We are unable to give that kind of a commitment right now, today.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, my other question on this, some may call this a lob ball, but around the federal government and the Canadian Health and Social Transfer funding and the fact that Nova Scotia has a larger proportion of out-of-province students than other provinces, what is actually happening in a way to try to encourage the federal government to give us proper funding, not based on per capita, but based on the number of students we have. What is your government doing to try to address that?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, that issue is part of the Premier's Campaign for Fairness. There has been quite a bit of work done at the bureaucratic level with Education and the Intergovernmental Affairs Department, but at this point we have not gotten anywhere with it on the political level. I have a copy of a letter from Paul Martin from last year that he wrote to the Minister of Finance and they were not interested in a one-off case for Nova Scotia because there is no support for this from other provinces. We don't let it go, but it does not look promising.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, a couple of other questions to the minister on the tuition issue, and I will just start by saying she talks about the pressures on provinces, I was going to note B.C., but now with the new government - that's out of the books - and I think they're deregulating their tuition rates as well, but Quebec as well I think has a fairly reasonable tuition rate, particularly for its province. They didn't sign on to the social agreement that said that they had to charge the same tuition rate for other provinces as they do, but I think the tuition in Quebec is under $2,000 or it's around $2,000 for students. So it's clear that it can be done. Quebec is not a have province. Quebec is not a wealthy province, it's not Alberta, it's not Ontario, yet they are able to keep their tuition rates down to an affordable amount, much below the national average which I think is like $3,500 or something like that.
So I guess my point is, it's more of a commentary than a question, the fact is that there are provinces out there that have made the commitment to the universities to ensure they can keep their tuition rates down and we don't hear horror stories coming out of Quebec about the university system being in tatters and I guess my point is if it can be done there, it should be able to be done here and I would encourage the minister to think about that. There are solutions. I go back to what I said on Friday, it's about a vision for education and this minister, again, seems to be trying to put out the fires and not really talking in the long term about how long-term funding, a long-term approach to education, particularly at the post-secondary level, to ensure that we have the funding to ensure education is accessible, that all Nova Scotians have a chance to get it.
My other question around the universities, and you hear this a lot from the universities themselves, is their infrastructure and their infrastructure is in bad shape, not unlike the schools that we have that are falling down around us; they have a lot of buildings as well that have trouble being maintained or need to be replaced. My question to the minister is, what type of plan does her government have for addressing the infrastructure problems that are facing universities in Nova Scotia?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, if I can address the first issue, the member is right, provinces can find ways. Quebec has found a way to keep its tuition down for its students, but what it does is it charges out-of-province students much higher tuition, differential tuition fees. It's the only province in Canada that does that and that could easily be a Catch-22 for our universities here. We could have the tuition lower, you know, for our students if we made
that decision, but we would have to raise it considerably for students coming out-of-province and since we have so many out-of-province students coming in to our universities, not only would we be breaking the gentle person's agreement with the other provinces shall we say, we would probably be, you know, it would not work to the universities' favour. They would lose an awful lot of students. So we would be forced into a situation that I don't think any of us would like too much.
On the infrastructure question, yes, they have a huge infrastructure bill. Again, that's a national problem as well as a provincial problem. We have had some discussions, but we have gotten nowhere on a program and that is simply money. This year the money that Education has is largely going to salary settlements and that's it. There's little or no money for anything else.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I find it hard to believe, and if the minister has proof of it, I will be glad to see it, that a province that is 80 per cent francophone is able to fund affordable tuition at $2,000 per student to all of its students by cranking up the differential rates for the other provinces. I can't imagine, and I don't think it's $10,000 that they're charging, maybe it is, I don't know, but I find it hard to believe that that would be enough to cover the costs of all those other students in Quebec and I suspect there may be other ways in which they're making their choices. They have a vision for education. They've had a vision in some ways for a long time with regard to providing education for their students to be able to become the managers, the engineers and the people who will be operating the industry and the economy in Quebec which 40 years ago they didn't have. They've had a long-term plan and they're implementing it and I suggest that if this government tried the same thing, they might be surprised in 40 years where we are.
One last question on infrastructure then, does your government have a long-term plan to stabilize the infrastructure in this province for universities?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, we have talked to the universities about trying to get together a plan that can involve the private sector and the federal government. We cannot do it alone, that we know.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I want to talk about student aid. Your government got rid of the loan remission program, I think back in 2000, so we're on to our third fiscal year now that you haven't had the loan remission program and you have hinted in this House that in the next 12 months, not surprisingly coincidentally maybe with another election, your government will be producing another loan remission, or another format. Can you give us any idea as to exactly what you're thinking about with regard to addressing the student aid crisis?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, what we're looking at would involve some combination of need and success and we have not, obviously, fully costed this plan. There are still a number of scenarios that the department and the Department of Finance are looking at to see what would best achieve our objectives; there has been a lot of work done on this plan, a fair bit of it has been rejected, but we're keeping at it.
MR. DEVEAUX: Does your government have any plans to deregulate tuition rates, much like they've done in Ontario, that would allow them to set whatever rate they want for tuition?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, we don't regulate tuition now. I mean, obviously, incrementally, you know, the graduate schools start charging more, but I haven't heard of or been informed of any plan to look at some of the kinds of increases that we've seen in some of the universities in Canada.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, so if tomorrow, the like U of T Law School, the Dal Law School announced it was going to raise its rates to $22,000 a year, your government wouldn't say anything about that?
[5:45 p.m.]
MISS PURVES: Again, another hypothetical question. I think it's likely the government would say something about it. But, again, it hasn't happened. We will see what happens when it does.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, your government - I don't have the exact number in front of me - but in estimates, spent about $16 million on student aid. Can the minister explain to me what that money is spent on? Exactly what are we getting for $16 million?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, that $16 million is actually what we spend on interest relief, interest payments and staff in the department. That's not the size of the student loan portfolio. That's what we actually spend, roughly, per year on servicing that portfolio and that includes the people in the financial assistance part of the department. So the actual size of the portfolio is about $38 million and then you have to subtract the millennium payments from that. So we are lending roughly about $29 million a year to students in terms of the loans they get. But what it costs us to service those loans is $16 million. (Interruption)
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, it reminds me of my days in the Chair, actually, with some of the intonations. So this province has $39 million in loans that it gives out. I'm sorry, $38 million was it? I'm not clear. How does the Millennium Scholarship reduce the amount? If we put out $38 million in loans, how does the Millennium Scholarship bring that number down to $29 million?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, we lend the money, but the Millennium Scholarship fund was a three year deal. For three years, it's about $8.9 million a year that they give back to the students so we don't have to carry that $8.9 million that the Millennium Scholarship provides.
MR. DEVEAUX: Is the minister saying that her department claws back the Millennium Scholarship from the students?
MISS PURVES: No, Mr. Chairman, I'm not saying that at all. The scholarship fund pays back the bank on behalf of the student so we're not clawing it back. We're giving it out. They are giving some to the student and we end up lending around $29-something million directly through our student loan. We don't turn any student loan down. If more students were applying next year, that amount would go up.
MR. DEVEAUX: So let us be clear then. Hypothetically, student A goes out and gets a student loan for $10,000. That's done through the bank. The bank, I believe, is the one they negotiate with. Then they get a Millennium Scholarship. Is there some agreement as part of the loan that that Millennium Scholarship will be given to the bank in order to pay down the loan that they originally had obtained?
MISS PURVES: The Millennium Scholarship goes to the bank to relieve the student's debt, if the student meets certain criteria set out by the Millennium Scholarship fund.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, does the student have a choice as to whether, if they receive the scholarship, it will go to pay down the loan, or is that part of the loan agreement that it would automatically go to pay down the loan?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, that money goes directly against the loan.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, the other issue is, and this is one that I find quite important in my riding, particularly in the Cole Harbour area, but I think in any middle class community. I hear quite often from families that their first child is now about to start university and their son or daughter is going to be eligible for a loan - and we find out, I call it the asset-rich, cash-poor people, they're middle class, they're both working, they've got a house - but they're not eligible for loans because they have so much of an asset base. My question to you is, has your government looked at anything to allow these, what I would consider middle class families who are not eligible for loans, given the $5,000 a year for tuition, it's very high, what can be done to ensure that these families have access to education as well?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, this income threshold for parents is definitely too low. It is the same across the country. We base ours on what the federal government does. I do know that people, well, the students groups themselves, obviously, but also provincial officials from the rest of the country have been talking for several years with the federal government about raising this threshold. That is one of the major issues because it is a problem when you're talking about regular middle class people. Even if you got some kind of a big disability payment or something like that, it would be counted against you. It would be counted as your parent's income. It would make you ineligible for a student loan. That's a very real issue.
MR. DEVEAUX: It is a big issue and I'm not sure if you're saying it's a national agreement and therefore the province isn't able to do anything on their own, or is it something that the province has the ability but not the funding to be able to address?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, well, I think all the loans that we give mirror the federal criteria. Theoretically, we could change our criteria to allow some flexibility there, but I'm not sure how much effect it would have because the federal criteria would stay the same and depending on how much of a loan the student is getting, I'm not sure it would really make that much difference because the federal component is usually fairly substantial in the student loan.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I want to talk a bit about school maintenance and construction. Can you tell me how much your department has set aside for capital projects in the next year?
MISS PURVES: Capital projects for the Department of Education is actually contained within the Estimates of the Department of Transportation and Public Works, but it is $76 million for new school construction, another $10 million for other capital and we have $3 million in the operating budget of the Department of Education to cover small projects that don't qualify for the tangible capital asset threshold.
MR. DEVEAUX: I think you said $76 million for new school construction. Can you tell me which projects that will be spent on?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, this is for the already approved list of schools. I don't think you want me to recite them, but the projects under construction in the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board, St. Anthony Daniel Elementary, South Colchester High in Chignecto, Halifax mainland north and Halifax school board and we have Clare District High School in the Tri-County, and the St. Mary's Academy in Clare-Weymouth. Then we also have approved school capital construction projects: Windsor High School, Rankin Memorial School, Sydney Elementary, Cumberland Elementary, East Pictou High, West Pictou High, and Shelburne Regional High - there are also renovation projects planned as well.
MR. DEVEAUX: We will get to the renovations in a minute, but just with regard to these - and I missed one, I'm sorry - after Windsor High it sounded like you said Brandon Memorial High? Oh, Rankin. Rankin Memorial - I take it that's in Inverness County? Victoria? Sorry, Victoria County? Thank you.
Okay. So one of these projects is in metro Halifax I believe - Halifax West or the mainland north project. I guess what strikes me - and I know the member for Timberlea-Prospect or the member for Sackville-Beaver Bank or the member for Bedford-Fall River might have very similar concerns - is that we have, in the suburban area of Halifax, schools that are busting at the seams. I know you have a statement you use on a regular basis that our population is decreasing in our schools, but the fact is that in the suburban parts of Halifax they are not decreasing, they are increasing. I guess my question is, what plan does your department have to address the overcrowding issues, whether it's Hammonds Plains, Tantallon, Timberlea, Eastern Passage, Porters Lake, Fall River, or the Kingswood area of Hammonds Plains, what is it that your government has as a plan to address the overcrowding issue in these areas?
MISS PURVES: This is an area where what we do, we respond to school board requests and we try to respond as quickly as we can. There is overcrowding, we know that. There are old schools in Halifax too that need to be renovated or replaced. One of the problems the board faces here in Halifax is the unpredictability really of some of the demographics. There was no reason to think that anyone knew that Madeline Symonds School would become overcrowded so quickly, for example; that was not foreseen and it is an issue. It's not a matter of the overall population in the Halifax district increasing - it's actually decreasing in the Halifax board too. It's where the pockets are, so again there is a high demand for new schools and additions to schools and renovations to schools.
MR. DEVEAUX: I guess the point is that Halifax makes up 36 to 37 per cent of the population in Nova Scotia. I would suggest that the student population, is even higher. It's 57,000 out of I don't know how many students, but . . .
AN HON. MEMBER: A third.
MR. DEVEAUX: A third? Okay. So my particular point is though, other than one school, because it was so sick you had to do something with it - Halifax West - you have no projects planned with regard to the metro area, and I go back to what I said on Friday which is that vision thing, what's the vision for your department with regard to education in this province? I would hope in areas where we have overcrowding there would be some addressing of that issue as part of that vision, yet we see nothing that addresses it.
[6:00 p.m.]
Now, let me ask a specific question. The school board in Halifax was provided a list of four schools - I think I asked this on Friday, and you were going to provide me with what those four schools were in response from the school board, but my other question is when will the Halifax Regional School Board see those schools built, those four new schools?
MISS PURVES: As I said in reply to a question from the member for Halifax Chebucto last week, even if there were four schools or three schools or whatever approved for Halifax, the soonest one of them - the one at the top of the list - would open would be September 2005. We have to manage the money, the amortization costs of all the buildings that are going up, and so whatever is at the top one or two of Halifax's list, that's what we would be looking at, providing they were the first ones to start.
MR. DEVEAUX: So does your department already have a sense for the 2003-04 year, where its capital dollars will be spent? Is there another list of 10-odd schools? Why would it be two years before we'd be looking at the Halifax schools being built?
MISS PURVES: That's because the schools have already been announced out to that year. For example, it will take that long to finish some of the schools that we're building now. Shelburne, for example, has got its site selected and it's looking to open in the Fall of 2004. Again, it does take time to get the schools built and that's the way it is.
MR. DEVEAUX: My question to the minister is, we have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten schools on that list I believe, unless I've missed one. The $76 million isn't covering the full cost of construction of all of those schools, that in some cases like Truro Junior High or Windsor, because they're going to be opened in 2003, part of the cost is put over to the next fiscal year, is that right?
MISS PURVES: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is just the current costs of the schools that we're building now.
MR. DEVEAUX: Let's talk about renovations for a few minutes then. This has to be something your department is very conscious of and in all fairness the minister in a response to a question I asked in the House last week pointed out that deferred maintenance is not something that started with her government or with her, but it's been going on for a very long time. Has your department considered at any point in time providing a specific budget for maintenance that the school boards would have to use only for maintenance?
MISS PURVES: Yes, I think the member knows we do have a capital renovations list and we have looked at it a few times and are still looking at dedicating part of the funding to school boards to go to deferred maintenance, but we have not done that for this year.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I didn't mean to confuse the question. My question is, when you provide global funding to school boards in the form of grants, $600 million or $700 million a year, is there a specific amount in that money that's dedicated for them that they can only spend on maintenance?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, we use a formula that provides them with a certain amount of money that theoretically should be used on maintenance, but we haven't forced them to use it on maintenance, we haven't made it dedicated. There is a formula for how much you get per square foot of every school.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, my question then to the minister is, you're right, if we start preventative maintenance today it's not going to prevent some of these older schools, after years of neglect, from falling apart, but we need to do something in order to stop this. Has your department considered forcing dedicated funds to maintenance, that the school boards are forced to spend on maintenance?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, this is something that the Auditor General has said we should do, and we are seriously thinking about doing it. Again, we hesitate to make the school boards spend X amount on every single line item that they get, because they do need some flexibility, but I think we're probably going to have to listen to the Auditor General and do just that.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, you talked about the capital renovation budget, I think it was around $10 million, maybe you can confirm - how much money has your department committed this year to capital renovations?
MISS PURVES: It's $10 million this year in capital renovations, and we have another $3 million in the department budget for operating renovations that are too small to meet the TCA threshold. Obviously we have dozens of millions of dollars worth of work to do, but we do have $10 million dedicated. Mr. Chairman, I would point out that though it's slightly less than last year, last year's budget did include repairing Robb joists, which we did do and we had to do. That particular pressure is not there this year, not that there aren't lots of other pressures.
MR. DEVEAUX: Which goes back to the point that I would hate to be the one who had to try to determine what the budget for capital renovations is in this province, considering the disasters - and I don't use that term lightly - that we've seen from Barrington Passage to Windsor to Halifax West to Sir John A. Macdonald to Graham Creighton, a few years ago. We have schools that are literally falling apart and making the students and staff sick. My question is, is there some basis upon which you've determined that $10 million is enough this year, or are we throwing darts at a dartboard to try to figure the answers to this one?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, well no, we're not throwing darts in the dark, because I have a list here of where that $10 million can go. It's quite a number of worthy projects. No, we asked for more, and $10 million was what we got and that's what we will work with.
MR. DEVEAUX: That's a very candid answer from the minister, and I appreciate her giving it. I would also ask if she could table a copy of the projects, just so that you don't have to read them into the record. Is it possible to table those today so that we can have a look at which projects are part of the renovation projects?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, I will be able to table that eventually, but the school boards themselves do not exactly know which ones have been approved yet, so I would prefer to wait until the school boards know.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage, you have less than five minutes.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I guess I shouldn't ask you to read it into the record today then.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Tabling it would be fine, then.
MR. DEVEAUX: Yes. You talked about another $3 million for operational renovations, this would be what, environmental testing? What exactly is that $3 million going to?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, the $3 million was one of the things, the issue that forced us to go over budget this year, because a project that's under the cost of $250,000, we can't use under the tangible capital assets policy, so that means that small renovations - it could be an environmental assessment, could be a paint job, could be a set of windows - can't be counted as capital, it has to be counted as operating. That's why we've included $3 million for that in this year's budget, so that the small jobs will still get done, or some of the small jobs.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I will hand over my last 3 minutes and 14 seconds to my colleague, the member for Halifax Fairview.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The member for Halifax Fairview.
MR. GRAHAM STEELE: Mr. Chairman, it's been said that all politics are local, which is something I don't disagree with. I would like to take these couple of minutes to ask the minister about local school affairs in my district, and of course an issue that she knows
is near and dear to my heart, Halifax West High School. The question I would like to ask the minister is whether the construction of the new high school is on schedule.
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, yes, I'm told that it is on schedule. So far, so good.
MR. STEELE: Mr. Chairman, is the minister aware of any factors, any risk factors, that might put the opening past the scheduled opening date of January 2003?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, at this time I'm not aware of any factors that might put that opening date in jeopardy.
MR. STEELE: Mr. Chairman - by the way, that wasn't a trick question, I'm just glad to hear that. One of the other issues around Halifax West High School is the question of boundaries, about whether everybody who was in the catchment area of the former school on Dutch Village Road will be included in the catchment area of the new school. I understand the school board is reviewing the boundaries, which may have the very unfortunate effect of taking people who had to send their kids to the old sick school, and they've waited patiently all these years for the new school, and they may find themselves outside the new school's boundaries. Has the minister, or anybody in the department, had any discussions of any kind with the Halifax Regional School Board on this particular issue of school boundaries for the Halifax Regional School Board?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, I know the member knows and we all know that that's a school board issue, but we do have interest in that and we will have to have discussions, or the department staff will have to have discussions, with the school board staff about that issue, because what the boundaries are for any high school is going to affect not just the parents who have kids now at Halifax West High School or the new Halifax West High School, but part of the deal to go ahead and build that school was to help accommodate some of the overcrowding at Sir John A. Macdonald High School. As well, there are several hundred students taking French immersion at St. Patrick's High School who are from that area, and the idea was that they would go back once the school was built.
[6:15 p.m.]
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader in the House of the Liberal Party. The time is 6:15 p.m. You have one hour, to 7:15 p.m.
MR. WAYNE GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I want to return to where I left off. We were talking about Acadian and French Language Services in the department. I want to return to the Supplementary Detail, on Page 8.8 - there's a budget line entitled Recoveries. Last year the forecast received was $1.5 million; this year under the estimates for 2002-03 there's roughly a $5 million cutback. My first question is, could the minister indicate if this is the recovery from the federal government to fund the staff that are currently working in the
French section within the department? My second question is why has there been roughly $0.5 million cutback?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, this has to do with the way in which a lot of the federal grants have been given in the last year. Some of the money that was used in the department for operational projects is still being given to us, but it's going to capital. They've changed the ways in which they give some of the federal money, so we're adjusting the recoveries in the department to reflect the fact that not as much federal money is going into the department. It's not that we're getting less federal money overall, but we're not using as much federal money to staff the actual department and we're putting provincial money in.
MR. GAUDET: So the minister, just before I sat down said yes the province is putting money into supporting French Language Services. I'm just wondering if the minister could clarify if the portion of provincial dollars going into supporting French education was $106,000 last year and this year we anticipate the province will put in $352,000. Could the minister clarify that for me please?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, we did put in $106,000 in the last year, and we're putting more in next year as a recognizable provincial contribution to the department. A great deal of that will be used to fund the initiatives on the Acadian side that we're doing in the English Program Services. For example, literacy and grammar and all the attention we're paying to that, that's also being done on the Acadian side.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I want to go Page 8.10, Net Program Expenses, Other Grants, French Language Grants, and then Recoveries - French Language Grants. Could the minister indicate if this funding is all federal funding received to support French core and French second language?
MISS PURVES: Yes, Mr. Chairman, because that's what they give us money for, as well as for capital.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, could the minister indicate if the total federal funding received this year to help support French education in Nova Scotia is - I'm looking at the estimate on Page 8.8, we're looking at $1.096 million plus Recoveries - French Language Grants on Page 8.10, $4.090 million. So I guess my question to the minister is, is this the total funding received by the federal government to help support French education in the province?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, that adds up to about $5.2 million, which is what we are getting under the OLEP agreement this year.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, last year there were questions raised to see if all the federal funding received was actually being spent to support French education in Nova Scotia. Could the minister indicate, from this study that was conducted, if all the federal funding was spent to support French education in the province?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, yes, all the money received was spent to support French education in Nova Scotia. There was, as the honourable member knows, an audit done by Heritage Canada. We've also, in the last year, instituted a series of meetings with all the partners in not just the school system, but at the Acadian level and we've managed to straighten out quite a few of the issues that seem to have arisen. It's still a work in progress, but these meetings have been very good. I should point out that any capital money for this year from Heritage Canada has not been allocated yet.
MR. GAUDET: Could the minister indicate if she did receive a copy of this audit that was done by Heritage Canada and, if so, is she prepared to table a copy of that audit here in the House?
MISS PURVES: What has happened is that Heritage Canada made some comments that the department was given the opportunity to respond to. So the final audit or the final report is not yet available, but certainly I commit to making that available to the House as soon as we have it.
MR. GAUDET: I want to thank the minister for undertaking to table that report once it becomes available. Mr. Chairman, I want to turn to Public Education Funding. Supplementary Detail, Page 8.9, Public Education Funding, the first budget line, Formula Grants to School Boards. I'm just wondering if the minister could explain to us what exactly is the formula used by her department in order to provide school boards with funding?
MISS PURVES: Well, Mr. Chairman, it's quite a complex formula, but it attempts to count for everything they need: salaries, not only for teachers but for their other employees; square footage; maintenance; heat; energy costs; public service awards. Every expense that all the school boards have is accounted for as part of that formula.
MR. GAUDET: The minister is absolutely right. When trying to sort out the formula used in order to decide how much funding each student or each school board is going to use, it certainly gets to be quite complicated. It's not just a certain amount given out for each student within the respective school board. I know there have been some questions raised, especially with the health funding that's been provided around the province. I'm just curious if the minister could indicate, under this formula that's being used to provide funding to school boards, if this formula differs from school board to school board or region to region?
MISS PURVES: Overall, the formula is based on 1996 enrolment figures for all the boards; 75 per cent of the funding is based on those figures and the other 25 per cent of the funding is beginning to be follow-the-student funding so that we can attempt to get some funding to the school boards that are seeing increases without overly trying to penalize the boards that are seeing the biggest decreases. I would say overall that like circumstances get the same treatment. There are differences. For example, the Halifax Regional School Board contracts out its busing. We pay for the school buses in boards that do their own busing so we give some compensation to the Halifax school board to pay for their busing. But obviously, we're not buying them buses because they don't do their own busing. That's a good example where it isn't exactly the same but is meant to be fair.
MR. GAUDET: I'm just curious; maybe the minister could try to provide us with some clarification. In terms of this so-called magic formula, technically, who decides in terms of what formula will be used next year? Is this formula strictly analyzed or drafted or created by staff within the department? Are school boards allowed some input into trying to come up with the formula that will be used for any given year? At the same time, is this formula pretty well the same formula that will be used for next year?
MISS PURVES: Well, the formula has been in place for a few years now and the formula itself isn't changed every year, but we start negotiating with the superintendents and their financial officers fairly early in the year about next year's budget, next year's funding, and trying to accommodate pressures. There are things that all school boards face, like electrical rates or energy costs, and we try to compensate for those. We did last year when oil prices were so high relatively equally depending upon their size. There's a lot of negotiating that goes on, but because all of the boards are present at the meetings, it's not a matter - we don't negotiate separately with the boards. All of the superintendents and the financial officers are all together in the same room, putting their pressures together and seeing what they can live with. I wouldn't say jump up and down over, but can live with.
[6:30 p.m.]
MR. GAUDET: I think the minister said it very well, trying to accommodate all the requests that she receives from all the school boards from around the province. I'm sure those are extensive lists. I'm looking at Page 8.9 again under the Supplementary Detail. We see under the budget item Formula Grants to School Boards, that school boards are receiving an additional $16 million this year. Could the minister - I don't know if it's available - undertake to provide us with a breakdown of how this additional funding will be handed out?
MISS PURVES: We can certainly table board by board funding if that's what the member would like. That would be relatively easy for us to do. The increase in Formula Grants to School Boards reflects a number of things, including the public service awards, for example. The step increases for the teachers, increases for some of the bus drivers and
janitorial services and so on, that is all in there. We can certainly provide the board by board list.
MR. GAUDET: I want to thank the minister for her undertaking to provide us with a copy of the funding that school boards will be receiving in this current year. I'm sure the minister will probably indicate that this $16 million increase is still not enough to meet all the needs from the school boards. I'm just wondering from the minister if she anticipates any cutbacks, any layoffs coming out of this year's budget?
MISS PURVES: We don't anticipate layoffs. I would venture to say that there will be retirements leaving vacancies that will not necessarily be filled. There will be a lot of programs school boards would like to do that they may not be able to do. I don't think it will be a really easy budget; I think it's a hold your own, barely, kind of a budget. On the other hand, there are about 2,500 fewer students, so our best estimate is that the boards can live with this budget.
MR. GAUDET: School boards in this province this year will be receiving $16 million of new funding. I want to just go back to the Budget Address of the Minister of Finance, Page 16. He indicated when the budget was tabled that the "Education budget also includes $21 million to meet government's existing contractual obligations with the Nova Scotia Teachers Union . . ." So, on one hand, we're providing school boards with an additional $16 million; at the same time, the Minister of Finance is indicating that school boards will probably need $21 million in order to meet some negotiations. It doesn't really add up. On one hand, we're giving them $16 million. We know for a fact that they will be needing $21 million. There's a shortfall here.
Again, to the minister, I know the Department of Health, when they provided their budgets to the different district health authorities, the different district health authorities had to submit their business plan to the minister before any changes were announced. I'm just curious, with the $4 million shortfall - technically $5 million shortfall - will the minister be requesting from the school boards a copy of their business plans before any proposed changes are announced?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, the school boards do submit their business plans. We have those. I have to point out that this alleged shortfall, if you go from estimate to estimate and you go on the same page, Page 8.9, of the Supplementary Detail, if you go after the total, not just the Formula Grants to School Boards but the total of what we're doing, you get from, - in 2001-02, it's $673.2 million, then 2002-03 is $694.05 million, and that's where the $21 million comes from. It includes not just Formula Grants to School Boards, but other things like the student transport subsidy - that's for Halifax - and dental, Atlantic Provinces' Education Foundation, the Black Educators Association, School Lease Costs, the Special Education Authority, and all these things are part of public education funding. That is where the $21 million comes from.
MR. GAUDET: I want to thank the minister for that clarification. Again, going back to the Budget Speech that was delivered by the Minister of Finance. On Page 15, "Let me point out that the bulk of the increase in school board funding includes a 2 per cent wage increase for teachers this year, with an additional 2 per cent in each of the following two years." My first question to the minister is, are negotiations completed with the NSTU for a new collective agreement?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, no, they have not been completed.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, could the minister tell us why the Minister of Finance has basically stated or made this comment in his Budget Address even though the negotiations are not completed?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, it has been a decision that, across government this year, we would include wages in departmental budgets as opposed to stashing them away somewhere else. It is not peculiar or particular to teachers; there are other budgets that include wages based on our public statements of wanting to keep settlements at 2/2/2.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, could the minister indicate if this is a common practice of government, to indicate to any group currently at the bargaining table or in the future - if government has now made a policy to tell whatever group is in negotiations how much there is in the envelope before final negotiations are done? The minister pointed out that this is basically something they have decided to bring forward. I'm just wondering if this is something that we can expect more of in the future?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, I can't speak for the whole government in years to come, but certainly we've decided that a minimum wage increase is the wage increase that we can know for sure should be included in the department's budget. As I said, other things happen and you deal with them as they come along. We certainly know for sure that we're not going to be spending less than 2 per cent on negotiated wage settlements.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, teachers in New Brunswick signed a new contract over three and a half years - it was roughly for three years - at somewhere around 13.5 per cent. This government is now proposing to offer teachers, before their contract is finalized, 6 per cent over three years. I'm just curious, does the minister have some additional money stashed somewhere, or does her colleague, the Minister of Finance, have some extra money in order to arrive at some type of satisfactory negotiation between our government and the NSTU?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, certainly I'm not aware of our department having any money stashed anywhere. Obviously, should a settlement be something else, then we have to look at everything we do across government. Again, what we're doing here is accounting for what we know for sure, and that is that it's not going to be less than 2 per cent.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, that's really good news. At least we know it will not be less. What we don't know is how much more. If it's more, where is that money going to come from? From the existing budget of the Department of Education, or from her colleague, the Minister of Finance? I know the Minister of Finance has indicated that his surplus has grown in the last little while, so I'm just curious if the Minister of Education could give us some indication. If in the end the negotiations turn out to be a little more expensive than what's been budgeted for, where is this funding going to come from?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, should that happen, we will have to look at everything across government.
MR. GAUDET: The minister indicates that if that happens, we're going to have to look across government. What I'm afraid of, Mr. Chairman, is that we could actually further look at reducing the funding that actually finds its way into classrooms. Unfortunately, we're not going to find out today from this minister if in the end, the teachers' contract that's yet to be completed, if it requires additional money than what the Minister of Finance indicated several weeks ago, we don't know where that additional money will be coming from, except from somewhere within government.
[6:45 p.m.]
Mr. Chairman, I'm sure all members of this House have been talking to teachers since this budget was tabled. Many teachers have probably been asking the very same question: is this the final offer that this government is ready to make to teachers in this province? Again, not knowing how these negotiations are going or how close this government is to reaching a final agreement with teachers, I guess the only thing we can do is hope for the best for the sake of students in this province.
Mr. Chairman, under the same section of that department, Public Education Funding, I want to look at the budget item Non-Formula Program Grants. This year, for 2002-03, the department has budgeted $1.9 million. Could the minister indicate what this funding is for?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, there are a number of organizations that receive grants, and they are - if the member does not mind my listing some of them - Acadian bursaries, the Attention Deficit Association of Nova Scotia, the Canadian Education Association. We do have a very large - well, it seems large to me because it's so big compared to what it used to be. This is the fund from which we pay the copyright tariff to CanCom, which is now at $510,000 a year. We provide nearly $300,000 for services in correctional centres, a small grant to the Council of Ministers of Education, Nova Scotia Women in Engineering Scholarships, Learning Disabilities Association of Nova Scotia, Metropolitan Immigration Settlement Association, the Native Council of Nova Scotia, the Nova Scotia School Athletic Federation, some funding for education in secure treatment centres and so on. And the IWK, sorry; that's in there, too, for teaching at the IWK for
children who are sick. So we do have quite a number of items listed under non-formula grants to school boards.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, further down on that same list there is $820,000 budgeted for School Board Standard Administration System. Is that funding for the Nova Scotia School Boards Association?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, that is for the SAP system, standard administration system, so that all the school boards and the department are on this same electronic system. That's what that item is for.
MR. GAUDET: On the next page, Page 8.10, under Other Grants, a budget line item, - French Language Grants. Last year the government spent roughly $2.8 million. This year they anticipate spending $4 million. Could the minister indicate why an increase of $1.2 million and where is this money being spent?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, some of that money is for the Université Sainte-Anne, some special measures for the Université Sainte-Anne, and some of it - a much lesser part of it, about $69,000 - is for infrastructure.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, the minister indicated there was $69,000 for infrastructure and some funding for Université Sainte-Anne. So there is $69,000 for infrastructure. Is the remaining amount from that $4 million earmarked for Université Sainte-Anne?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry, the answer I gave previously was estimate to forecast, but from estimate to estimate this reflects our new OLEP agreement, Official Languages and Education Program agreement, with the federal government.
MR. GAUDET: Moving down on the same page, Learning Resources Credit Allocation. We're basically looking at $8 million that the Department of Education spends on this budget item. Could the minister indicate if this is the funding that's provided to school boards to provide books and resources from the Nova Scotia School Book Bureau?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, yes, it is. That is mainly books.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, could the minister indicate if there's a formula that's being used to determine how much funding is given out to boards or per student? I'm sure you've probably heard parents and teachers talk about not enough funding available to purchase books or not enough funding available to provide a copy of a textbook to every student. Sometimes they have to share a class set of books for different courses. So I'm just wondering if the department has some type of formula that they use in order to divide this money to boards?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, we do have that. I do have a number here of how much of that money goes to each school board. If the member is interested, I can table that document. It roughly follows population because, obviously, one kid, one book, that kind of a formula. It has stayed the same, well, it has gone up a bit, but essentially it has stayed the same for a number of years. But obviously the number of students has gone down, and we have also introduced a bulk buying initiative through the department whereby we can buy more for the same amount of money and distribute them to the schools as opposed to leaving it up to the school boards to buy them on their own. So that has increased the number of books available. For example, the Annapolis Valley Regional School Board gets $853,000; Chignecto-Central School Board, $1,260,000; Halifax Regional School Board, $2,820; the CSAP, $1,098 and $700 and so on and so forth, but I can certainly table that document so all members are aware of where that goes.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, as the minister indicated with the declining student enrolment this year, the department has certainly continued with the same level of funding they were providing school boards last year. So that's certainly encouraging. I want to go back to Page 8.5 of the Supplementary Detail. There is an entry here under Corporate Services, Nova Scotia School Book Bureau, for this current year, $311,000. Could the minister indicate what this budget line item is for?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, that is a credit line, Nova Scotia School Book Bureau, because of over-the-counter sales of some of the books. So we list that as a credit.
MR. GAUDET: I want to thank the minister for her answers. Mr. Chairman, I want to move to the next page, Page 8.11, of the Supplementary Detail. I'm looking at the Teachers' Pensions Matching Contribution. Roughly we're looking at a $45 million, $46 million, $47 million matching contribution. Is that a matching contribution made with the NSTU or is that divided up with municipalities? Who do we match the contribution with?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, that is matching the teachers' contributions.
MR. GAUDET: The next line item says 1928 Pensions. It's a budget item of $25,000. Could the minister indicate what this budget line is for?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, it's simply a different pension agreement for those teachers who were teaching at that time. I'm not quite old enough yet to remember - I may be any day - but it is just a different pension agreement.
MR. GAUDET: So, Mr. Chairman, we can't have too many of those people. (Interruption) The minister indicated that she would undertake to find out. I'm sure there are probably not too many of those retired teachers left under that plan. Under the Estimate Book, Mr. Chairman, Page 8.14, Teachers' Pensions, there's a budget line right underneath the Gross Expenses, under Teachers' Pensions, Less: Chargeable to Other Departments.
We're anticipating we will be refunded $2.4 million by other departments this year. Could the minister indicate why other departments would be contributing to the Teachers' Pension Fund?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, this would be for teachers seconded to other departments. We would still make their pension contributions, but we would be reimbursed for that. I will find out for the honourable member if it's just departments within government that teachers might be seconded to, or people from our department, for example, like maybe teachers seconded - or if it is other Public Service agencies; for example, school boards. We may have teachers seconded to school boards or other administrative bodies, and also the Nova Scotia Community College; there may be some charge-back accounted for in there, but I will get the detail on that.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for her co-operation in providing us with that information. The next budget line on the same page, Less: Recoveries, has a $16,000 amount attached. Could the minister indicate where that recovery is coming from?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, again I would have to check on that $16,000. We don't have it at our fingertips here, but there would be no problem providing that information.
[7:00 p.m.]
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I want to return to the Supplementary Detail. On Page 8.11, the next section, Schools Capital-Amortization. The budget line for buses, could the minister indicate if this is the funding that's given to each school board to help them replace or buy new school buses every year? (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Honourable members, there are far too many conversations taking place in the Chamber. Would you please try to tone them down just a little bit.
MR. GAUDET: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, could the minister indicate - under Schools Capital-Amortization, there's a budget line here for buses. Is that the amount that's provided to the different school boards to buy new buses or replace old buses?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, those are the amortization costs of the buses that we provide and buy for the school boards. That number, that $3.9 million, represents the amortization costs of about 65 buses.
MR. GAUDET: The next budget line, for Schools - I know, Mr. Chairman, you recognize how sensitive this budget line is, especially with all the requests coming in for new schools and especially replacing some old schools that are still being used by our staff and
students across this province. The department has budgeted $34 million in the current year. Could the minister provide us with a list of the new schools that the government anticipates funding in this current year? Is that list available?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering if the member would like a list of the amortization costs per school or a list of the schools? This represents the amortization costs of our new schools as opposed to the total amount for the new schools.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Would the honourable member permit an introduction? Thank you.
The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect on an introduction.
MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Actually, Mr. Chairman, I'm going to share my time with a member of the Liberal Party with some introductions, so this can be a first in this House as we share this time.
Mr. Chairman, we have in the east gallery tonight some compliance officers who had the opportunity to meet with the minister for a few moments down in an important part of our House, which I guess we would look at as a role model, called the Uniacke Room. It's ironic what happened there, but I won't go into that at this time.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I wonder if I could ask honourable members to please tone down the conversations. We do have an introduction. The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect on his introduction.
MR. ESTABROOKS: And I'm going to share my time with the member for Cape Breton The Lakes. I would like to introduce these members - and I guess we will ask you to all stand at once - these compliance officers and their concerns about rumours that they've heard of. After the member for Cape Breton The Lakes finishes his introduction, we would ask you to stand and be recognized here in the people's House. I have only one eye, so if I make a mistake here, I'm sorry. We have Jack MacIsaac, Aubrey Smith, Ken MacDonald, Gary Bullerwell and Paul Aucoin.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cape Breton The Lakes.
MR. BRIAN BOUDREAU: Mr. Speaker, I would also like to introduce Jim Feltman, Hugh MacNeil, John Oickle, Doug Legere, Raymond Beaton. Mr. Beaton and Mr. MacNeil are both proud residents of Cape Breton The Lakes. I would ask all members, of course, to give a warm welcome to all compliance officers here in the House this evening. (Applause)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Certainly, welcome to the compliance officers in the gallery this evening. I've had the pleasure and privilege of having some of my motor vehicles weighed a few times by some of the honourable guests in the gallery. (Interruptions) I didn't say anything about overloaded.
I think it's time we got back to the debate at hand. We are in the Education Estimates tonight.
The honourable Leader in the House of the Liberal Party.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I too want to welcome our special guests in the gallery who are here with us. The minister indicated that this was the amortization that was being paid out on the different constructions that have taken place. Is that correct? (Interruption) That's correct. I'm just wondering if the minister could point where in the budget is the new money set aside for new school construction that will take place in this current year?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, the new money for capital construction is in the budget of the Department of Transportation and Public Works. This is the portion of what we pay, the amortization costs. It may be helpful, I do have a list here of the costs of the schools, the buses and so on, adding up to the $42 million. I could table that for the members.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I'm sure all of us are aware there are certainly growing needs and the list keeps expanding for replacing old schools by all the school boards across this province. I'm just wondering if the minister could provide us with some information in terms of who decides which new school is going to be built. Does the minister have a special committee involving all the school boards, involving staff from her department, or is it staff from the Minister of Transportation and Public Works' department? I guess my question is, who decides what school actually makes that new construction list?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, the school board supplies a list - we ask for a prioritized list, it doesn't always come in that way - of the capital construction that they would like to have and actually the renovations and repairs, especially those of a serious nature, but let's stick with the capital construction for the time being. They all submit lists to the School Capital Construction Committee, and on that committee are representatives of all the school boards, plus Frank Barteaux from the Nova Scotia School Boards Association, plus a representative or representatives from the Department of Transportation and Public Works, the Department of Education, and the Department of Finance.
They take all the lists from all the school boards and go over them with their expertise. Now I know last year there were people who visited just about every school on the list, just about every school in the province, and they try to prioritize the list, not just from what a school board might have at the top, but balance it against, not the wish list, but the
real needs in other school boards. We're revisiting last year's list this year to make sure that it's still relatively accurate. In other words, the situation at, for example, Sir John A. Macdonald was always listed for repairs and renovations but that seems to have become a more urgent matter for the Halifax Regional School Board, and we wouldn't want to ignore any new situation that had arisen in each board. Again, they revised their list and it goes back to the School Capital Construction Committee, which is fairly objective.
There are, obviously, from time to time, objections. I know right now we have a situation down on the South Shore where no one seems to understand where this school came to be at the top of the list. Generally speaking, we haven't had problems, we've had people being disappointed that they don't get schools, but we haven't had problems with either the list we've come up with or, frankly, the list that the former government provided when we came into office, that list, we stuck to that list pretty well.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I think the minister certainly made reference to what concerns people may have. If this priority list that's basically decided upon by this School Capital Construction Committee, if every different department and school board representative - on that list or on that committee decides on a given priority list what new schools should be built next, I think part of the difficulty people have in trying to understand is what happens when someone moves up on that list or someone not on that list basically makes the list.
I guess what I'm trying to find out is how firm that priority list is that the Department of Education basically tries, as much as possible, because I know there are special cases and I don't want to go into specifics, we've been hearing from them all around the province - I'm just trying to get some direction from the minister. From this priority list, do we try to follow that list as much as possible? Of course there are exceptions that may pop up for whatever reasons, at times. I'm just trying to get a firm commitment from the minister, if this list technically is the true list that the government uses before any new schools are announced.
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, yes, obviously, there will be exceptions, but there aren't that many exceptions. A good example, for instance, in school construction and renovations, even though we were proceeding that way anyway, was the court decision to do with the Acadian schools. There was no way we were going to ignore that. A few years previous to that court decision perhaps one of those schools would have been postponed longer, who knows, but in compliance that way.
There have been two schools that we announced relatively recently, one in Windsor and one in Truro. They were actually on the next list. So even though they came forward sooner than we had anticipated, they weren't pulled out of a hat out of the blue. They obviously would be taken off the next list, and we don't know yet if we will have the money to actually add two more. They certainly weren't pulled out of a hat. The School Capital Construction Committee had already decided that they deserved to be on a replacement list.
MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I don't disagree that Windsor and Truro were on one of the lists. Sometimes people wonder who is making these final decisions. Is the School Capital Construction Committee involved in making those decisions? I guess I'm going to run out of time here, maybe I can return on another day and I will pursue my questions.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cape Breton Centre said he would permit you to place the question and the minister answer it, but seeing as how you have taken your seat we will go to the member for Cape Breton Centre.
The honourable member for Cape Breton Centre.
MR. FRANK CORBETT: Madam Minister, since we have limited time tonight, I'm going to ask you some questions particularly about post-secondary education and around student loans and funding. Do you know, in particular, the last couple of years because of the closure of the coal and steel industries, a lot of those workers involved in that industry were given severance packages which would inflate their actual yearly earnings somewhat greatly. Some would probably get within the span of a year the equivalent to two to three years of salary. I'm just wondering if Nova Scotia student aid took that into consideration when compiling the assets of a parent when their student was applying for student aid?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, to the best of my knowledge, I can't speak to a specific case, but I know there are quite a few cases where the parents' income is judged by their income that year regardless of whether or not it's a one-time thing, or two-time thing as opposed to a regular thing, and that is because we follow the federal regulations in terms of assessing need and, as I said earlier, this can end up being unfair to some people, but we do follow the federal regulations and the federal lead. If the student leaders and some of the rest of the departments in the country are successful in persuading the federal government to up that number, then obviously we would follow as well.
MR. CORBETT: Mr. Chairman, it reminds me much of what my mother would say when I did things that maybe I shouldn't. She would always say, well, if so and so jumped off a cliff, would you jump off a cliff, too, but only it was usually something a bit more serious than jumping off a cliff. This is a subject I bring up because it has caused great concern in industrial Cape Breton because what we've been having - and some students have been lucky enough to have it changed on appeal because it was reality, but that's not good enough. It's fine when those who take the opportunity to appeal, but we all know the appeal process. I had one, I think it ended up being satisfied, coming into Easter weekend. That's how late in the year this process was and I appreciate that there are all kinds of complexities there, not the least of which is when people apply.
Madam Minister, I think I would say to you that these are special circumstances. We're not talking about an employer who employed five people and went out of business and was generous enough to their employees and decided to give them a decent severance
package. I think when you have layoffs and severance packages being handed out in the span of about 18 months to approximately 3,500 to 4,000 people, I think your department should run a bit more cognizant about that and be willing to look and help. I have always been a proponent of the fact that student aid should have an office in Cape Breton for the amount of servicing it does, because it would make eminent sense for the amount of people and I know that's not always popular.
With that said, when a student becomes less a ward of their parents, if you will, Madam Minister, and they've gone past their four years and now they've become an independent student, what's the criteria used for them to access the maximum amount of the $10,000 loan?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, I believe it's 21 years of age and three years out of school, or three years out of school, but certainly I can get that information. We have all that information and I can table that information.
MR. CORBETT: Maybe the minister, Mr. Chairman, might have misunderstood part of the question. Once you reach that threshold, how is the maximum designed? Is it an arbitrary figure that they say, well, you know, this is the maximum and we believe you should have made $2,000 and therefore we give you the maximum less $2,000? Is there a finite equation for that?
MISS PURVES: It's a maximum allowable for the time they're in study and you subtract income from that and, obviously, if there's no income, I mean you - there are a lot of regulations and certainly we will get that information and table that information.
MR. CORBETT: I will try to just clarify it a bit more, too, so you understand where I'm going with it. I'm talking about in areas like Cape Breton where there's high unemployment and it's obviously harder to get summer employment and just any other kind. So I'm worried that the department may be saying a blanket statement of, you're a fifth-year student and therefore we assume that you should be able to gain employment that will allow you to keep $2,000 to put towards your education, that's what I'm trying to find out. I think that a blanket statement such as that wouldn't work because of the large pockets of high unemployment in the province.
Moving on to some other topics around secondary education, particularly in Cape Breton. As the minister is no doubt aware, we've seen a problem within the University College of Cape Breton about their budget and proposed funding and possible layoffs of instructors in the trades program. Has that facility talked to your department, Madam Minister, about any kind of extra funding that would help them absorb and not have to lay off those instructors?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, yes, there are issues there and people from my department were talking with officials from UCCB this year about a number of things, including that. We were able to give the university $0.5 million towards that last year, recognizing they had some issues, but certainly that's not going to solve all their issues. They had to rationalize some programs and, now, I'm not aware of all the details myself, but I have heard of some steps the university has taken and I can only trust that it's in the best interests of the university that they have done so.
MR. CORBETT: Madam Minister, I'm going to ask you a question here and I suppose you can answer me, and in the short answer could be, I don't micro-manage these places. I won't like it, but I will understand it somewhat. Around this whole issue of possible layoffs and the ying and the yang of it, clearly the student representatives and many of the representatives who represent the instructor and other faculty have real concerns about the size of the administration of that institution. Those are their words, not mine, and I have no real way of discerning the truth between truth and fiction, but clearly, I sat down again with the administration and they say that they can certainly explain that away. I think a lot of us have seen publicly what happened when they tried to present the budget. In your involvement, that institution, is it the department's concern about the size and the direction of that administration Madam Minister?
MISS PURVES: The member was right on his first statement, I'm not micro-managing and I can't, actually, they have their own board of governors. I'm well aware of the students bringing up that issue, that's for sure. They've made their thoughts quite plain on that issue, that they think they know where the savings can be found.
MR. CORBETT: The problem is when you talk to people I represent, some of those instructors, Madam Minister, they say that administration is up by 100 per cent and the faculty is down, tuition is up, and that's what we're trying to get to the bottom of. Some of those courses that are talking about being cut, there are outside sources that are willing to pay recruitment bonuses that add up to the tune of $20,000. So I guess in trying to rationalize those numbers and, with those types of figures, is your department looking at the administrative level at UCCB?
MISS PURVES: Mr. Chairman, no, we aren't doing that there or at any other university; again, they govern themselves.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Time has expired for the estimates this evening.
The honourable Government House Leader.
HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee do now rise and report considerable progress and beg leave to sit again on a future day.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Hearing that, the committee stands adjourned.
[7:27 p.m. The committee adjourned.]
