HANSARD
Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services
Mr. John MacDonell (Chairman)
Hon. Leonard Goucher
Hon. Patrick Dunn
Mr. James Muir
Mr. Sterling Belliveau
Mr. Charles Parker
Mr. Wayne Gaudet
Mr. Leo Glavine
Mr. Harold Theriault
In Attendance:
Ms. Jana Hodgson
Legislative Committee Clerk
Select Nova Scotia
Mr. Scott Hosking,
Director of Marketing Services, Department of Agriculture
Ms. Jennifer Reynolds
Planning & Development Officer
Ms. Linda MacDonald
Executive Director, Industry Development and Business Services
Department of Agriculture
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HALIFAX, TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 17, 2009
STANDING COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES
9:00 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. John MacDonell
MR. CHAIRMAN: Good morning, everyone. I think there's still one member coming but I'd like to get started. In particular, there are a couple of agenda items for the end of the meeting. I know Mr. Goucher has to leave. That's okay, it will be one less arm to twist on these agenda items.
The format here usually is you would introduce yourselves and then start. You have - well, we have roughly two hours, but generally we like time for some questions. So before I let you do that, I'm going to start with Mr. Belliveau and the members will introduce themselves. Once we've completed that, then the floor is yours.
[The committee members and witnesses introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thanks very much for coming, we're glad that you could. Go ahead, the floor is yours.
MR. SCOTT HOSKING: Good morning, everyone. We're very pleased to have the opportunity today to come in and chat about Select Nova Scotia. It's certainly an important priority within our department and one we're very proud of as far as results and accomplishments over the last couple of years.
It has been our vehicle to take advantage of the strong buy local movement that's going on everywhere, whether it's the Province of Nova Scotia, across the country, the United States or Europe. It's a very strong component of rural development and agricultural strategies everywhere.
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Today what I hope to cover - I know that we've got about five to 10 minutes for the presentation - we'll take a look at what our objectives are within Select Nova Scotia, some of the highlights, the outcomes and measurables, and some of the plan activities for the year to come.
Our objectives. Number one is to increase consumer awareness and consumption of local foods - who is producing what, or processing, when is it available, where is it available - and to really create that knowledge and awareness within consumers so they can go and identify what Nova Scotia products are out there to purchase; to promote the benefits of buying local to the farm family, the rural community and provincial economy, how it's a really important part of sustainable rural development within the province and, of course, ultimately to increase opportunities for industry growth and development, to work with members of our industry so they understand what opportunities are out there and sort of facilitate the process from a business development perspective so they can increase the volume of their sales, the margins that can be had.
Just a bit of a quick background. Select Nova Scotia was launched in August 2007. Minister Taylor launched it at the Provincial Exhibition. There was a lot of media/press attention surrounding it, of course, because of the importance of local. A very important component of the whole process in the evolution of Select Nova Scotia has been the Minister's Advisory Committee on Buy Local. It's comprised of various associations within the province: the Restaurant Association, the Federation of Agriculture, members from the direct marketing side of things, the Women's Institutes of Nova Scotia and the Canadian Council of Grocery Distributors. They've been a rudder as far as the evolution goes.
It was very important that we had a lot of industry feedback and understanding of what we were trying to do so that the concept, the way it evolved, really involved a lot of contribution from industry. And as the next bullet indicates, industry partnerships are critical to this whole thing. Without industry strongly believing in what we're trying to do, participating, using the logo, I mean that was critical and crucial to the success and we've been very pleased with that to date.
An annual budget of $350,000, and it has been a fun process, we've actually been quite successful in leveraging that up and through various forms and fashions.
Some of the highlights. I guess the most prominent one has been the promotional campaign, an umbrella promotional campaign that's sort of the platform from which our messaging has been launched. You may have seen in the past year that we had two television waves of promotion, one that originally focused on the Incredible Picnic and promoting the fact that we're holding this. The second one was trying to make a connection between the producer and the farmer's field. I mean that's a very important message to be had. What we found in our research is that to have the farmer or the producer as a face of the promotion is
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very key, because producers have a lot of faith in the credibility of what they're all about and what they have to say.
A radio campaign all across the province, billboards, transit terminals, and print - we've had inserts describing what Select Nova Scotia is all about, the importance of purchasing local, distributed to over 350,000 households within the province. We've had various ads and print articles in newspapers, magazines, all across the province and elsewhere. We have a very large suite of collateral materials that have been developed from bags, t-shirts, banners, point-of-sale material. We've got grocery shopping lists and a lot of material that will be helpful to promote the message of Select Nova Scotia - it may be banners that you have seen at direct markets. We've distributed those to over 300 people within our industries and businesses within the province.
We've had a retail component as well. There was in-store sampling where we had producers there to talk about their product within some of the bigger retailers and a series of point-of-sale material that has been used by retailers. We have a whole other component that we're presently evolving that will be for the larger retailer, and I'll talk about that in a little bit.
Direct markets. They have been one of the prime participants in Select Nova Scotia, working with the farm markets, the farmer's markets, the cottage wineries, the agri-tourism cottage processing facilities. They've actually developed a lot of their own events around Select Nova Scotia - we've assisted them financially - but also in the distribution of materials that have been helpful in their promoting the local message.
Restaurants and food service. Restaurants are really key to this as well. Restaurants purchase a huge volume of local product. For example, the biggest purchaser of lamb within Nova Scotia is one restaurant, they purchase more than any other retailer - actually, another one's open - and that's all about relationship and awareness creation. So we've really tried to focus on that a lot because I don't think there's a real understanding of the potential that exists to increase the whole local purchases through the food-service sector. So we've promoted that to industry, again, trying to work with them to create that awareness as to what our producers are supplying, what's available from the process side of things.
Also, at the restaurant level, we've tried to promote it to consumers, as well - what products are available. There's point-of-sale material sometimes indicated on menus, what is local product - it may be a little Select Nova Scotia sticker. We've worked very closely with the Restaurant Association of Nova Scotia and Taste of Nova Scotia. RANS has been incredibly supportive in promoting Select Nova Scotia and encouraging their chefs and members to purchase local wherever possible, so they've been a really excellent partner in this whole thing.
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Business development support. Our business development group is trying to work in a way that producers can understand the process of what's necessary to work within and take advantage of the food-service opportunities that exist, how they can work effectively through co-operating on logistics, what volumes are necessary, the price parameters they might have to work within. That's something that we consider to be very important and we actually want to do more of over the next couple of years.
Our signature event for the past year was the Incredible Picnic and we want to build on this. It was held at 11 locations around the province, 6,000 consumer participants and over 100 companies participated. As far as the companies that participated, they were very happy with the success of the event. Several of them here in the city went back to their place of business three times because they couldn't believe the sales they got that day. So number one, there was just a revenue generation for participants that day but more importantly, I think, was the opportunity to talk one-on-one with consumers.
Anytime you can have a one-on-one with the consumer and talk about the message of the importance of buying local, the dollar value that you can place on that is - I forget what advertisers say you need to get a message to one consumer, but you can place the value of $1,000 on that message. If we talked to 6,000 consumers, that was a really beneficial day to have that one-on-one contact. I know myself, personally, I couldn't talk by the end of the day, because promoting local the entire day was an excellent opportunity for one-on-one communication.
The amount of free press we got was absolutely phenomenal, far beyond our expectations. We had I don't know how many TV interviews, radio interviews, the press we got was just beyond our expectations. I'd like to attach a dollar value to that - I think it was more than the value of what it cost us to deliver the event in the first place, and it was community-driven. We sort of provided the materials, the communication and promotion, but each community that was involved, they sort of took the ball and ran with it. We assisted them in maybe hiring a local person to help deliver it and I know this year the interest is very substantial. I expect that we had 11 locations and that's going to increase dramatically this year, so it's a real community-oriented event, community-driven and, as I say, we provide the promotional aspect.
Our buy local Web site is also a very important cog in the whole thing. It's an information resource for consumers where they can go and search out local products and understand, again, who's producing what, when it's available, where it's available. It's also the node where producers can sign on to Select Nova Scotia and download materials and graphics and things of that nature so we have a record, as well, of who is participating for communication of information. Again, it's a node of everything local - it includes recipes, food events, seasonal availability of products and it links to a lot of other local Web sites.
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Some of the outcomes. Three hundred and fifty businesses are listed on the Where to Buy Local site on the database and 35,000 visits to the site, as well - actually, I think that might be slightly dated, I think it's getting closer to 40,000 now. There are 125 companies registered, that's a 50 per cent increase from when we launched the program in 2007.
A very important part is to get those measurables and that feedback from those who are participating. We surveyed everyone who was registered and asked them to rate their satisfaction with the program from 1 to 5. The average rating was 3.5 out of 5, but 48 per cent rated it 4 out of 5. Those who maybe rated it a little lower, we asked them why and they said, this is a great program, but I ship my product across provincial borders, so if it would have been something that would reflect movement of products and still promote local, if we had that I would be rating it higher. It wasn't that what you were doing was not helpful, it's just that my products are shipped across provincial borders.
We also did some direct consumer research as well. One was an unaided piece of research where we surveyed 400 persons by a random-sample telephone survey across the province and asked them an unaided question about, are you aware of any local programs? Six per cent indicated they were aware of Select Nova Scotia. That dramatically increases when you change your form of questioning, and I'll get to that with the Women's Institutes report there. Another important thing there was the 27 per cent stating it was critically important in the purchasing of local product. Before we launched Select Nova Scotia it was 14 per cent, so it increased 13 per cent before we started and I think it was six months later. We're actually in the process now of updating all of that information on the consumer awareness.
[9:15 a.m.]
Again, that bottom figure there, the Women's Institutes of Nova Scotia completed a survey - and this wasn't a biased survey in any way, it was sort of a random sample, it wasn't done at any kind of farm markets or farmer's markets - and 38.9 per cent of respondents were aware of Select Nova Scotia, so that's very positive. That was an aided question where we asked them, are you aware of Select Nova Scotia? So that's why there was a big difference between unaided awareness when we just asked them if they were aware of a local initiative. The one at the bottom is quite reflective because that's what we wanted to do, we want people to recognize Select Nova Scotia and that's what this is all about, consumer awareness based on recognition.
Some of the planned activities for the upcoming year. We want to build upon our present campaign. We'd basically like to do more of what we've been doing and try to develop more partnerships that allow us to do that. Another newer component is seasonal eating promotions, there are three different components to that. One is working with retailers, we've developed a water-colour stylized suite of materials called Art of cooking local, and it profiles 24 different Nova Scotia products. There's some information, I believe, in a bag
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they'll be handing you, but I have a couple of photos here of what it's all about. It's just to have more point-of-sale material with the bigger retailer and it also includes some flags and a suite of materials that we'll be using.
We have 10,000 calendars that we're producing for consumers and what it is, it's a monthly recipe where each month gives a recipe of local products that you can use and it's based on, for example, in the winter around here there's a lot of storage crops, so we have a lot of interesting recipes during the winter months that consumers can purchase local and prepare these items.
Also, working with restaurants and encouraging them to use local products seasonally, again, we're providing some of the information and materials as to how they can do that - not that you need to tell chefs anything because there's a really strong movement, particularly within metro here, as far as local and slow foods and all of that, a lot of them are very familiar with what we have available. It's just another way to encourage them to work with us on promoting Nova Scotia products in the winter months when we don't have our full range of products available but there are still a lot of things that are available. Related to that, we have a series of strategic advertising through various forms of media.
We are also planning our second annual Incredible Picnic. I don't need to go into that, I mentioned that quite a bit previously.
Promotion of local foods and producers to the restaurant industry. Again, we feel this is a really important one. We have a series of items that we're developing and pursuing. One is Local & Direct, a little handbook that we're giving to all the chefs and it shows who the producers are, what products, when it's available and how they can get it. It's all about that relationship and awareness building.
We were very successful in actually getting a lot more of the restaurants within the province to list Nova Scotia wines and that was based on doing a wine tour with them. You'd think a lot of chefs would be very familiar, but they weren't as familiar as we expected. As a result of that tour they came back - and I forget the exact number, but there was a dramatic increase in the number of restaurants that listed Nova Scotia wines, just because of that awareness and relationship that was built.
We have a producer showcase at ApEx, that's one of the biggest food-service shows in Atlantic Canada. We're trying to do it a little bit differently this year where we have 24 producers that are going to meet specifically with buyers - it's kind of like a little bit of an offshoot event - so they can better understand what purchasers are looking for as far as product specifics, volumes and the distribution. We want to really profile this so that again, it's all about that knowledge, awareness and creation of relationship building.
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Again, the chef tour and workshops, much like we did with the wine, we also want to do that, maybe we're going to focus on protein products or produce, getting the chefs and restauranteurs actually on site to meet with members of our producing and processing sector.
We have a partnership going on with Health Promotion and Protection where we have a binder of recipes focusing on Nova Scotia product that will be distributed to the schools around the province and then, again, it encourages them to purchase Nova Scotia product in preparation of recipes for students.
Jennifer, did you have anything else on that one there, the recipes and the binders for the schools, and Health Promotion and Protection?
MS. JENNIFER REYNOLDS: Hopefully it will be rolled out in the Spring and we're discussing a number of initiatives. Health Promotion and Protection does a lot around training for the cafeteria staff and the production of the recipes, but there's also a take-home component to communicate that to the family, and then also looking at how to tie in with curriculum and also letting students know what options they have in the cafeteria.
MR. HOSKING: Finally, again, we're working with direct marketers, we provide some promotional assistance to allow them to develop some of their own promotional materials or deliver certain events focused on local.
Just a couple of photos here. That was a campaign launch back in 2007 and some of the in-store materials that were evident at a retail location. That is Minister Taylor there, of course, the former Minister of Agriculture. One of the billboards that was around, we had several different streams to our promotion: one was focused on the consumer, one was focused on the restaurants and chefs, and the other was on the producer. Again, to keep that producer face prominent is really important because of the credibility with consumers.
Here are some photos from our signature events last year from various sites around the province. This is what I'm referring to as some of the new retail materials that we've developed, Art of cooking local, there's a series of water colours that will focus on 24 different Nova Scotia items, again, to be focused on the retail side of things, the bigger retailers. We're very happy with how that has turned out and we're just kind of rolling it out with some of the retailers as we speak. That's just to ensure there's that year-round promotional aspect to Select Nova Scotia. And that's it as far as the information goes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you very much. I have a list of speakers to start here. I have Mr. Parker and then Mr. Glavine, so if there's anybody chafing at the bit, let me know and I'll add you. Anyway, Mr. Parker, go ahead.
MR. CHARLES PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for your presentation - interesting. It seems like you're off to a good start and I know it takes time to
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build up any new type of program and to really get the word out there and get people in the right frame of mind to try to always be thinking of local when they have choices.
I guess if there's a concern - I guess we just haven't reached that level yet, but what I hear from people is most people shop at the big supermarkets - at Sobeys or Co-op or Superstore, or whatever - those three are really the main choices that we have. I guess the point-of-sale material or identification that it is local is maybe what's missing, to some extent. If there's a lettuce or a squash on the shelf, is it from Nova Scotia or is it from California? Lots of times it doesn't identify. It might say Canada No. 1, but I'm not sure if that's the grade or if that's the country of origin. But especially on meat or fish, is it identified as local, as Nova Scotian or Maritime, or is it from somewhere else?
I know you touched on it but what more is in the hopper to identify local, just identify that it is from the local area?
MR. HOSKING: Well, actually that's one of the examples right there, that there's another suite of materials that we hope retailers will utilize in their promotion of local products. That can be a bit of a challenge with some of the bigger retailers because it's just the nature of their distribution, but they are willing to work with us and they're very interested in local. I mean some of our biggest shippers in the province said that it was the best August they've ever had because of demand by the bigger retailers of what's local. I guess maybe where it's falling down a little bit is, again, on the signage.
Another aspect relates, as I mentioned, to the distribution of product across borders. We do have another initiative underway through the Council of Atlantic Premiers, the agri-food action team, and it's to work with the bigger retailers on maybe an Atlantic initiative - I mean the Sobeys and Atlantic Superstores of the world - and they're very interested in evolving this. They've been involved from the beginning and that's what that will be, to have that point-of-sale material in place that will allow them to identify what's maybe Atlantic or Maritime - I'm not sure where we'll go at this point. Yes, that's a recognized point of discussion, to have an enhanced or increased amount of materials at the point of purchase.
Now, the direct markets, it's a different story there, and they've been very effective. I think because of the nature of the beast, with the bigger retailers, it's more of a difficult chore, but they are willing to work with us. We've developed a whole new suite of materials that hopefully they'll participate in, as far as identifying what is local. We're very encouraged by the whole Atlantic promotional or branding campaign that is evolving and hopefully that will address some of the issues as well.
MR. PARKER: So you're very much hoping, then, that the big retailers will identify that lettuce or that squash, or whatever, as grown in Nova Scotia or grown in Atlantic Canada?
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MR. HOSKING: Atlantic Canada, for sure. All we can do is promote and encourage and develop the materials but they are very, very receptive to working with us. I mean we'll continue to encourage.
MR. PARKER: Okay. Maybe a bigger question, especially around the meat industry - beef in particular. It seems as it's known, I think 92 per cent of our beef is imported from outside of our province, mostly from Alberta. You can only promote what's there but in the bigger picture, from the Department of Agriculture's point of view, how can we get more Nova Scotia beef produced here and, therefore, on the shelves so consumers can buy a local product?
MR. HOSKING: We've been working quite extensively with the beef industry in addressing some of those initiatives and through the Atlantic Beef Products movement there, to maybe have it slaughtered and back to - there have been initiatives to bring it back to Tony's, to have items prepared that retailers can use but we continue to work with them from a strategic perspective, to I guess get them in a situation where they're better prepared to supply some of the bigger retailers. I think to have those consistent volumes and products that are specifically required by the bigger retailers is all part of it. I mean I think we just need that enhanced coordination.
Linda, do you have some additional comments?
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: Well, yes, I guess the industry itself in Nova Scotia is in near completion to a plan for their future, if you will, and I guess three directions so far. One is integrated production and marketing, which is kind of having producers in the Maritime Region work with one or two processors, to enable really the production to flow through a plant which has business linkages at retail, like Co-op, Sobeys and Loblaws.
Right now it's happening, but more on an almost ad hoc basis, so that the strategy will really work at pulling producers together to supply cattle that meet certain specifications so that one or two plants, particularly the federal plants - Tony's Meats and the Borden plant on P.E.I. - have the product on hand that retailers actually want. So there's a lot of work going on now between those plants and the end-users, the larger distributors, food service and, as well, the larger retailers. So we're hopeful that we'll see a change over the next couple of years. These kinds of things, I mean as you can imagine, like transforming your farm with different genetics and different feeding protocols, those kinds of things, it doesn't happen overnight. So that's one area of work.
The other area of work that cattlemen want to work on a Maritime basis with is strategic infrastructure, so pieces like education and training, extension support, all of those things, I think, need to be - and I'll use the pun - beefed up, to enable new entrants to get the training they need to produce products that the marketplace actually wants.
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So as I say, a lot of the issues, why you don't see it now, is that the beef is just not available in the quantity and quality that the marketplace may demand. I think producers have done a really great job on the direct marketing issue, so consumers now are asking for local beef. I think that will pull a larger quantity of products into retail where Select Nova Scotia, as I say, can help move them out of the meat case. But part of it is - we say we can't really find a marketing solution to what is essentially a production problem and until we fix some of the challenges and gaps at the farm level and on a Maritime basis, it's going to be really difficult to kind of get the volume and quality we need that consumers expect.
[9:30 a.m.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Parker, you're cut off.
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: Oh, I talked too long, did I?
MR. CHAIRMAN: No, it's not your fault, it's my fault. Mr. Glavine, I wasn't watching the clock.
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: But we can talk, I'll give you my card.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll probably have another round so you may not escape without more questions. Mr. Glavine, go ahead.
MR. LEO GLAVINE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the department members - Scott, Jennifer and Linda - for coming in today. There's a lot of possibility around the buy local, there's no question. While I was disappointed last summer, it's still early, I think, to judge where the campaign and so on is going to go.
When I say disappointed last summer, I'm really registering the viewpoint of many of the local markets because as the department rolled out the great provincial picnic, that was all fine, but at the local markets, up until that kind of point, they didn't see anything happening. There was a great kickoff the year before but last year they really felt in the lurch, that there wasn't enough coming. I know the TV ad again, around the picnic was there and then there was a second TV ad towards the Fall.
The local markets up and down the Valley absolutely feel, like they've done in Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, and I think maybe Jennifer is familiar with Ontario - are you Jennifer - they have moved from a single-digit percentage of their food supply being local to now into a double-digit. It has come because of a sustained, year-round campaign.
There can't be these momentary blitzes, if you wish, to change the mindset of people. As an educator I know it takes continuous, month in, month out, changing the culture of buying food because it is only going to be changing the culture of buying food that will then
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lead to further production at the farm gate. That's one of the issues that I heard, and that was through the Valley community, it wasn't just personal observation, I called a number of the markets.
Yesterday I made a point - coming here today - of going to one Sobeys and one Superstore - not a single Select Nova Scotia sticker, not a single one. So you know last summer had to be the most discouraging point. We had some tremendous strawberries in the Valley and right at the point when they were reaching peak production, what are the two major retailers promoting? California strawberries. You know look, NAFTA be darned, little Nova Scotia is not going to be impacted - if we bring in some legislation, if legislation is required to move our buy local and the future of our farmers forward, I think that has to be done. That's a little bit of my own area. The identification part of it is just in its infancy.
I had an e-mail yesterday - so unbelievably timely - I think Deputy Chief of the Berwick Fire Department, and he would like to go into a store and buy local meat. Unless he goes to Jim Lamb's Meadowbrook Market, there's nothing in any of the Superstores that would ever show, you know, buy meat. I'm glad to hear Linda speaking positively about the future of some beef. We all know that the hog industry has been decimated, we don't know exactly where perhaps our chicken industry is going to go, there are still a lot of unknowns there.
I feel buy local can be a means of a sustainable industry. I just want to know, then, a few things. Where do you see this going, like for the next five-year period? Unless we have a plan, and Linda knows very well that we've done some stopgap things, some one or two-year projects in agriculture, but we never seem to have this umbrella and comprehensive strategy around agriculture. I think the buy local movement can be a wave of possibility, there's no question about it. I hear some great things happening with farm markets, with local farmers through Nova Scotia but unless we have some kind of a plan for five years, where we'd like to be - can we reach 10 per cent?
The GPI report of last summer showed that we have tremendous possibilities for greater sustainability of producing our own food, yet we put on the store shelves product from Guatemala, Mexico, where chemicals are being used that we banned 20 years ago.
I think Nova Scotians will buy in at a greater level if we do a great job and have a five-year plan. I'm just wondering about the plan. I'll stop there.
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: Well, I agree. I mean you know I mentioned my middle name is Plan these days, right? Certainly in areas where they do have a strategic plan, like in tree fruit, the wine industry, Atlantic organic products, beef now are coming together to complete theirs. They've done very well in reorienting their industry on the production side of things, to meet market needs, and in a profitable and competitive way. More needs to be done.
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In terms of where the department is going, you probably do know about our competitive transition piece that we work with the Federation of Agriculture on. There's three pillars there - one is public goods and services, supports for strategic infrastructure and then another pillar on competitive transition. I think, particularly in that first pillar, I agree with you totally - we need to really look at strategic inputs in the form of a plan so that producers are marching down one road together.
Part of the issue we have in getting into the bigger stores is production capacity. Where we've done well, like in horticulture, producers have worked together to sell through central marketing groups, like Nova Agri or Daigle's or Kings Produce. Those packers pack for 30 farms - 40 sometimes - and they have that critical mass, to kind of feed the Sobeys stores.
However, the irony is although we might have 30 per cent of the produce case in season, those packers really are hesitant to put the Select Nova Scotia sticker on their products - Scott talked to that earlier - primarily because they ship interprovincially, with the way the system works. They're afraid if Select Nova Scotia appeared in New Brunswick, that - we might worry that their sales could go down. So that's why Scott is working really hard with his action team, to look at a brand Atlantic or Maritime brand, so consumers can see that it is local, although maybe not Nova Scotia but at least it will be Maritime.
MR. GLAVINE: In fact, as my colleague Charlie mentioned, in fact the Atlantic promotion, I think in fact, may even have a stronger ring than just in Nova Scotia. But what is wrong with like the Atlantic Plus and some of that signage? You remember years ago, when we had the Atlantic Plus movement, which was right across many products, of course, manufactured products and so on, and it would be "Atlantic Plus - NS.", or PEI, and we do know that then it is from the province. So I think that is a big area, using the Atlantic approach.
In terms of, because you know we all know that we've struggled with local but what is the definition and from Select Nova Scotia, it must be right now a Nova Scotia product, I would think. Is that how you envision or picture local?
MR. HOSKING: Select Nova Scotia is a Nova Scotia product. There are situations where a certain percentage of value-added as well may kind of fit under the banner. We haven't come across that too much. I mean there has been interest, for example, in not just food products but other agriculture products, like goat soap is one - an agricultural-derived product. There's interest from the Christmas tree sector to go under the Select Nova Scotia banner. Those are some things that we - and we bring that to the administrative advisory committee to get everybody's thoughts on it, does it make sense?
I mean there's other ones that we said well, no, I guess that doesn't fit. There was this company that is producing this incredible product, it's a baby butt paste and they were
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wondering if they could be under the Select Nova Scotia banner. I said I'm sure it's a great product but that's not what we're about at this point because that brings the point, I mean an issue that would be for all products but we try to - anything that has an agricultural impact.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Glavine. Mr. Dunn.
HON. PATRICK DUNN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, thank you for your presentation and again, what Select Nova Scotia is doing is certainly helping the producers and the consumers and the economy. I'm sure there's lots of work to be done but so far it is very encouraging.
I have a question with regard to the dairy industry in Nova Scotia. The dairy industry is probably worth at least $100 million a year or more. Does this milk stay in Nova Scotia? Is there a certain percentage leaving, or is it all consumed within our province? That's my first question.
MR. HOSKING: The bulk of fluid milk is consumed here. I think there are certain processed products that are definitely shipped elsewhere. Certain cheese products and maybe some novelties and things of that nature, they're certainly moved across the country, in fact. That's my understanding, Linda?
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: Yes, the milk in the case is all Nova Scotia brands. The interesting thing, I think we're the only province that still has more than one brand of milk in the dairy case. They mostly tender for it in the larger supermarkets in the rest of Canada and one dairy or another wins the contract, but consumers can get all brands in Nova Scotia.
MR. DUNN: My second and perhaps last question - back in early Fall 2007, there was a request to the Department of Justice to come on board and purchase local food for the correctional institutions. I'm just wondering what has been happening with that? Has it been working? Is there a lot of local food going in to do it?
MR. HOSKING: Justice is one of the areas where there is a pretty solid volume of product moving in, I think that has certain independent purchasing. I know that's an area where a lot of Nova Scotia beef products or protein product is actually moving into the Justice system. We're quite pleased with what has been able to move there and I guess it always has. Even before we started on the buy local, our initiative, Justice is one area where it was quite solid, the amount of product moving in.
MR. DUNN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Muir.
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MR. JAMES MUIR: Thanks very much. A couple of questions about beef. The Borden plant - how is it doing these days?
[9:45 a.m.]
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: It's not quite where it needs to be in terms of breaking even, but we're within six figures now and it was close to $1 million a month they were losing here a year ago. A new management team has been put in and they reoriented the floor of the plant to make it more streamlined. They're getting better volumes of cattle now than they were and they just hired a new CEO, John Thompson, a guy with a lot of experience comes out of MNS Distribution in Moncton, with a lot of food experience. Carl Larson and a few others are kind of there in an advisory capacity, so the plant is moving in the right direction. They have a plan to hire a marketing director over the next two weeks who will be working with the larger retailers and food service, and building markets for Maritime beef.
MR. MUIR: Is it operating at capacity?
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: No, it's under capacity.
MR. MUIR: What percentage?
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: I can get that figure for you, I wouldn't know off the top of my head.
MR. MUIR: I know a couple of the local stores in Truro carry Maritime beef, one is Co-op and the other is Cavanagh's and Cavanagh's, of course, is known for really sporting local people in terms of, you would know having lived in Truro, that if you want local produce from a grocery store you'd go to Cavanagh's and they have been very good that way. They get their meat from that place. Actually, I was talking to the manager of Cavanagh's yesterday and this came up in the conversation.
The local beef - and it's Atlantic beef not Nova Scotia beef, I guess, and you have to look at it in that context - the quality of that is very good. You buy your beef at Co-op or you buy it at Cavanagh's, it comes out of that plant - it's every bit as good as the stuff that's coming in from Alberta. I think that is something - the quality of that produce has increased, it really improved I would say over the past number of years. What is the reason for that? People are quite happy to go and buy that now.
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: I think it is more producers working together and growing their beef to specification. The plant is working hard to reach out to producers in terms of asking for certain spec of cattle that would be moving into the plant. I think, too - it's what Scott refers to as the buy local phenomenon. I think producers are heartened that
[Page 15]
more people are asking for local and I think they're working hard to produce the volumes and quality that consumers expect.
MR. MUIR: I think it's the two largest chains, Sobeys and Loblaws are both controlled now, at least in terms of the buying, probably from Ontario, so they are really buying nationally, I suppose, as opposed to purchasing for Nova Scotia or for whatever it is.
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: Although we had a session at the Old Orchard two weeks ago and the meat buyers were there, it was part of the strategy session for the beef industry. Retailers were there and they were very interested in buying local, to the point where the plant now is looking at putting in a grind line - apparently 40 per cent of the beef sold at retail is hamburger. It's amazing. I was shocked at that and that is year-round volume. That plant doesn't have a grind line, so they're missing a large part of the cow that can only be used for hamburger and the largest . . .
MR. MUIR: And you're talking cow as opposed to steer.
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: Exactly, yes, the largest market really in the Maritime Region. With that small change, I think Maritime market share would go up.
MR. MUIR: Notwithstanding my last comment, I noticed that - I think it was Loblaws that was advertising quite extensively the proportion of their products that are local. I can't remember whether Sobeys is doing that or not. Sobeys, of course, is a local name therefore it's a - is that something new? Is that a result of what you have done or is it just the result of what?
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: I think it is just the buy local phenomenon. I think we've got something here and I think their market research is showing the same thing as our market research is that consumers are getting increasingly concerned - you know, the food scares in China and some of those issues are making consumers start to read labels now where they didn't even two years. I think we just need to keep pushing. As I say, a lot of Nova Scotia's problem is capacity, we just don't have the volumes and maybe quite the quality or packaging or quite what we need to have to meet market needs and that's where we want to work hard on.
MR. MUIR: Can I get one more question?
MR. CHAIRMAN: It will have to be a squeaker.
MR. MUIR: I'm going to remember what it was, I'm going to have to pass because it just went out of my head. (Laughter) It was a good question, though.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gaudet.
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MR. WAYNE GAUDET: I want to start off by thanking our presenters this morning. I think everyone recognized the value of buying local. The Department of Agriculture has been promoting buying local for years - 15, 20, 25 years and probably even longer than that. I'm sure with all the successes we've had over the years, we need to build upon those.
Scott, you talked about Taste of Nova Scotia, the farm markets, the wineries and many others, but Charlie raised a concern that I want to raise, the big food retailers; Leo did as well. When I go into Sobeys and Superstore, I look around, are Nova Scotia products identified and there's no doubt, we need to do some more work with these people. The majority of our shoppers - that's where they're going, they're not going to the farm markets, so we need to spend more time developing and working with these big retailers. We all recognize the value of buying local, from the farm gate right to the consumers and keeping those dollars here at home.
I guess my first question would be - looking at your budget, Scott, you talked about having $350,000. Is there enough money in your budget in order to advance to build upon the successes that we've had over the years, to make Select Nova Scotia, to make buy local, to promote that and bring it to the next level, to increase that 10, 15, 20 per cent and build upon those numbers? I guess my first question is, are we investing enough in order to make it even more successful?
MR. HOSKING: There was a comment earlier about Ontario. Ontario has two different programs but for one of their programs to promote local, they have a $10 million budget. Promotion is a pretty expensive game to play in, whether it is TV ads, material development, all the creative aspects, trying to satisfy all the individuals and companies and things that are out there - it's a very expensive process.
Any program is better with additional funds, but we try to stretch our $350,000 as far as we can, through leveraging dollars, partnering, but certainly more money would allow us to - and that's, I guess, some of the reasons why we have certain waves of promotion. We try to maximize our promotional activities during the times when most Nova Scotia product is available, where we have the biggest impact. We're trying to be as effective as we can, but again, with more money you can do a lot of great things and you have a greater penetration and build a larger consumer awareness.
MR. GAUDET: Obviously, we need to do more reaching out with the general public. Are we working with Nova Scotia institutions - community colleges, universities, schools, jails, long-term care facilities?
MR. HOSKING: We have in the past worked a fair amount - again, that's not part of Select Nova Scotia, it's sort of a different pillar of activity. But through the Office of Economic Development in our Supplier Development Program, we have worked with them in the past. A lot of it seems to be creating that knowledge and awareness of what's available
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from Nova Scotia and not only that, but to work with our suppliers for them to understand the process necessary, for example, to take a tender and bid on it.
Some of the things that we've done - we all heard the news a few years back about New Zealand beef being a specific requirement and I think a lot of the time, it's just a matter of communicating the fact that, hey, why do you have that in a tender document, that sort of eliminates Nova Scotia companies, so they took that out. They used to take tenders and they would bundle them, 12 to 15 products you would need to bid on. As a result of communication and awareness building, they have now unbundled tenders so that our companies are able to bid with the two to three products that they have.
Jennifer mentioned in the school system, the Strive for Five, so that schools will use Nova Scotia products in recipe preparation. We actually have a study that the terms of reference are just being drawn up as we speak. What that will do is allow us to really understand the whole procurement system - who the buyers are, what they're purchasing, the volumes and things of that nature. We're going to try to understand the situation as best as possible and with that information, we can go forth to our producing and processing industry and say, this is what you need to do, these are the opportunities. I think a lot of it is just creating that knowledge, awareness and understanding of what it takes to work within the system and what opportunities are available.
Again, more than ever, even the Ciscos of the world, they seem very receptive to the concept of local more than ever before, so we feel very positive what the road ahead will lead to as far as being able to accomplish those things. We have to provide the volumes necessary, we have to work within the price points necessary and the product specifics, but there are some solid opportunities to be pursued in that whole institutional thing. We don't have a direct impact, of course, they're their own buying entities, I mean health care, two big buying groups account for 90 per cent of all health care purchasing, so what we can do is work with them and our processors and producers as well, so they understand what is necessary to be part of that system. Do you have any other comments on the procurement side of things?
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: I was going to say part of the strategy in Select is about just as you said, reaching out and providing the tools, so that industry itself kind of takes that and does part of their marketing. I think in partnership, as government and industry, we can leverage up our budget dollars and our internal resources so that Jennifer has sort of almost an army behind her of producers and marketers in those businesses, kind of all using the same collateral and using the same messaging.
So sometimes it's not about money, it's about leveraging - you know the excitement and some of the other things - to get what we need to get done. People like yourselves, just talking to your constituency about how important it is, I think it makes a big difference. As Scott said at the picnic, that was the thing that I couldn't get over, people asking questions and the opportunity to kind of talk to them one on one really does change their view.
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MR. GAUDET: Hearing about the picnics, how successful they were, I was glad to hear, Scott, you're looking at increasing the number of locations. Back in August, the South Shore and western Nova Scotia were completely forgotten so I hope when you're increasing those numbers, you'll give some attention to the other end of the province.
I want to finish off by thanking all of you for coming in this morning. Keep up the good work, it's not an easy fight. People have been working at this for many, many years. There have been lots of success stories written and there's certainly a lot more to be written. So again, keep up the good work, it's greatly appreciated.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Gaudet. Mr. Goucher.
HON. LEONARD GOUCHER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Two of my three questions have been answered and my last is more of a statement than a question. I'm just a city boy and when it comes to agriculture, I'm not on a farm very much. When I go to Sobeys, where we shop - and it's going back to a question from Charlie and Wayne, really, because it was a point that I wanted to raise as well - I go in and I look at apples, I look at different fruits and vegetables that are grown here normally. Every one of those pieces has a sticker on it, every one of them - produced in the United States, produced in Florida or wherever. I look for a Nova Scotia product, I really do - I go into the stores and I really try to buy Nova Scotia, where I can.
In fairness to the retailers, at times they do - I'll see the Select Nova Scotia and the signs are there but not very often and when they are, they are more generalized. Maybe if you had that particular produce there, some of them may be Nova Scotia but probably some of them aren't.
[10:00 a.m.]
From the perspective of the fact that probably of the million people in this province - I'm just thinking of HRM, the urban people like myself who really don't have the benefit of some of the experiences that many people in the province don't have or do have - where are we going? How are we going to try to increase the visibility of local product?
You know what - it's a damn difficult job, I understand that. You do a great job right now and I agree with everybody here, but for people like me and there are probably 300,000 people like me in the urban-suburban area here, how are we going to work with - and I guess it's got to be the retailers, too, but also the producers. I mean, you know, if I go into the store and I'm looking for apples - even during production time, even in the Fall - I'll see a lot of the time product of the United States, as opposed to local produce, when we have the most wonderful product here. How do we identify those? How do we get the identification, maybe raise the identification level when the apples are out?
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You take a look on your picture right there - if that was a U.S. or a Chilean or another product from another country, every one of those pieces would have a sticker on it, or just about every one of them. How do we do that, or is there a way of doing that? I'm not even sure how they do it but it does, you know without question, it raises the awareness. Sometimes when you're in the retailers, it's very disturbing to not see our products there when I know we're in the season. You can talk about strawberries, you can talk about whatever you want. You may be in Costco, too, that's another place where sometimes you'll see it and you see a product from New Zealand or a product of Mexico or somewhere else, how do we work with them? I know that you're doing it now but how do we increase the awareness level for the consumers like me?
MR. HOSKING: On the producer side, certainly we consider their partnership with us as critical to success of the initiative. On our Web site they are able to download all the files necessary to incorporate into their own packaging and planning and we try to encourage that as much as possible. But for them, I think it has to make sense with respect to their branding and their initiative as well. Ours doesn't always trump theirs, so I mean where it makes sense, I think they try to do that.
I mean we want it, that's important for us because it makes us - the more producers, processors that participate increases the visibility, it really enhances our overall message, so we just try to encourage and work with them as much as possible.
Now for a lot of the individual companies I think an Atlantic initiative will make more sense, just because they ship across borders and through centralized distribution systems, so once - as this evolves, and there is a strong movement on, and we have a meeting hopefully before the end of this week or early next week with this Council of Atlantic Premiers, and a good action team to really put the plan together to apply for funding, so that movement is very strong. I think once you see that, you'll see that sticker a little bit more prevalent. This is all the same, it's all about local, I mean it all benefits our producers in the same way. Again, we try to encourage producers to do that.
As far as the retailers, I just want to mention something that earlier - one of the biggest shippers in the province said this was a record August for him in shipping product. His company has been around for, I don't know, 50 or 60 years and it was based on the local demand by the big retailers for produce. I'm going to assume there are some stories out in the media that we would think contrary but he said that was my best August ever and it was the retailers, the big retailers demanding local product.
Again, I think for them it makes sense if it's Atlantic and they have at times been quite active in using Select Nova Scotia but it's always a seasonal thing. It seems to be more seasonal when our supply is most available is when they participate in the most significant way with Select Nova Scotia and identification. It's not always year-round but I think it's based on product availability. I mean obviously there are apples in the stores right now that
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are Nova Scotian but I've yet - I mean it's not always prevalent but again a lot of times it's difficult to find them.
MS. JENNIFER REYNOLDS: It's almost like a band-aid approach but I think the design of these materials is to sort of address that gap that you're talking about, so whether you know an apple producer is comfortable using Select Nova Scotia, they're exporting a significant portion of their crop but we have an opportunity to provide a tool that a produce manager or even a producer worker can use because they know that that product is local. So we're trying to do something that's intermediary between the big banner and the label on a product.
MR. GOUCHER: It's not a criticism of the department at all, I know it's a difficult thing.
MR. HOSKING: It's the most challenging aspect.
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: Oh, it is.
MR. GOUCHER: I mean I can think, Mr. Chairman, right now of the wine industry in this province and the wine industry, which has always been pretty near and dear to my heart, believe it or not, especially the ice wine, we make some of the best ice wine in the world. When you think about that, sure, there are many areas that probably can't produce it because of the temperatures but we make some of the finest ice wine in the world and we're receiving gold and silver awards.
I think generally we're doing a pretty good job marketing it and it's pretty well displayed and we try to ensure that the Nova Scotia product is there and people know what it is.
Just one other quick question, if I may; I think - was it December or November there was an injection of approximately $800,000 or $700,000 a year for the support for the development of local food products? Can you maybe elaborate a little bit more on that? Do you know about that?
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: The direct markets?
MR. GOUCHER: I remember it was around $2.3 million or $2.4 million over a three-year period?
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: Yes, we were really fortunate as a department to be able to access some community development trust money for a proposal that spoke to direct marketing. So those folks out there who are small-, medium-size businesses and can't access the large retailers but want to enhance their presence in farmers' markets or add value on
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farm or sell - anyway, any venue in terms of selling direct to the consumer, that money is available for strategic initiatives with more emphasis on - like a larger proportion or percentage of funding would go to those producers who want to work together, so collaboratively five producers could put in a proposal. So yes, $2.3 million over three years.
MR. GOUCHER: Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Theriault.
MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for the presentation. I want to apologize to the Chair - after I sat in this spot this morning, I figured out I was in legal counsel's spot. I don't feel like a lawyer but . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: We don't think of you as one, either. (Laughter)
MR. THERIAULT: Thank you. I would like to speak on a promotion, dollar-wise. Last week in Digby they had a promotion on at one of the huge stores there, they were selling these beautiful hams for 99 cents a pound and they sold out - just at the snap of a finger, that product was gone. The next day they took rain checks and they ended up bringing more of those hams in than they originally did in the first place, at 99 cents a pound. I'm not sure where they came from - it doesn't matter, they never came from Nova Scotia, I know that.
When you pay 99 cents a pound for that meat, it's completely gone out of this province, every cent. The way the big stores work, there's not much left in this province to keep. Has it ever been promoted to the people of this province that spending a little more money and keeping that money in the province - even if they had to pay double the 99 cents - would show more value to themselves in the long run than it does by getting those sales at 99 cents a pound? Has any of that ever been promoted?
You know, the good that it will do by keeping the money in this province, is there any promotion like that at all?
MR. HOSKING: I guess one of our key objectives is to underline to consumers the importance of supporting local, as I mentioned, to the farm family, rural community and provincial economy. We try to do that in making producers a strong component, a face of the program, we try to do it that way. We haven't used any kind of specific numeric descriptions of the situation, other than saying, look, this is really important for our economy, it's the sustainability of rural communities, and things of that nature. We haven't used any kind of economic analysis, at least our group, in promoting the fact, other than it's a very, very important aspect of what we're trying to do, but no numeric analysis aspect.
MR. THERIAULT: Could that be done? Could you do that and show the people of this province what it costs this province and what it costs themselves to pay 99 cents for this
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pork and the harm it's doing, not only to our farmers but the farmers where that was grown? I don't know how they did that, I don't know how they do that. Some way you've got to be able to show the people how we're hurting ourselves by doing this. Do you think that's something that Select Nova Scotia can do?
MR. HOSKING: I'm not sure if Select Nova Scotia but . . .
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: Well, we do have a business development division. We could take a look at that, do some economic modelling in terms of dollars invested and what the return would be to the economy.
It is disheartening, I agree, and that pork probably came from Quebec somewhere and probably that producer, too, has lost money. That's the unfortunate part of it. But part of the consumer research says when you ask consumers, when we say local, what does it mean to you? I forget the percentage - you probably know off the top of your head - but it's a high proportion, like 20 per cent of people say it means it's cheaper.
You know, you see it when Nova Scotia strawberries come on. They'll pay x dollars a pint and that's a reasonable expectation when they're from California or Mexico, or wherever they're being imported from. When ours come in season the expectation is that our strawberries are less expensive, and that's part of what Scott and Jennifer are trying to do with Select, is position our local products differently so that there is an expectation that there's benefit there that consumers will actually pay for, so that's where we're going.
Will we do it next year? Well, we're making inroads, but I expect if we keep at it, in three or four years I hope to be here saying this is one of the outcomes, that consumers no longer have an expectation that our food should be really, really inexpensive, that there needs to be profit built into the entire system.
MR. THERIAULT: It's called survival.
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: Well, it's business, exactly.
MR. THERIAULT: I'd like to touch on fish for a moment, fish hasn't been brought up yet. As you know, I'm the Fisheries Critic for Nova Scotia, so I have to touch on fish, and I am a fisherman and know quite a little of what's going on in the fishery.
Last weekend, down home in Cornwallis, the local tourism group put on a local - local businesses came in, showed their wares and different things. My son, they've been into this lobster fishery this Fall trying to promote lobster - you've seen them around the city this year promoting lobsters, trying to get the lobster market up. Anyway, my son put on a little promotion down there on how to shell a lobster. Quite a crowd gathered - there were 600 on Saturday at Cornwallis Park - who watched him shelling lobsters. I was amazed, I was
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surprised that there were so many people there who never knew how to shell a lobster. We know how to crack an egg, we know how to peel potatoes, you see it all the time. We even see a lot of scallop shucking, but you don't need to shuck your scallops, they're shucked for you. The lobster is not shucked for you, you buy it as a delicacy, a live creature, and you cook it yourself and you take it home and you shuck it.
[10:15 a.m.]
I was amazed down in that community how many people never knew now to shuck a lobster, or not even cook one, I couldn't get over it - people living in a fishing community all of their life. How many people in this province, in this country, don't know how to shuck a lobster? Do you ever see any promotion about it? None. The only promotion I've ever seen about lobster was from Fisheries and Aquaculture, there was a lady one night on ATV showing us how to boil a lobster. She had a full pot of boiling water and dropped that lobster into it. Well, it made me sick, I shut the television off. You don't cook lobster in boiling water, you steam them, but that's the only thing I've ever seen. Here were all these people in this local fishing community watching my son, I couldn't get over it, they didn't know how to shuck a lobster. Is there any promotion that way from Select Nova Scotia to one of our greatest seafood industries in Canada?
MR. HOSKING: Certainly we're trying to encourage seafood participation as much as possible. But on another note, on that lobster promotion, I don't know if you're aware that we were out West doing the exact same thing and we made sure we had a chef with us. We were in Calgary, Edmonton, Fort McMurray and Lloydminster. People were so . . .
MR. THERIAULT: Locally.
MR. HOSKING: My point is we were out there with the chefs and people didn't have a clue and the biggest, most important aspect of that whole promotion was the educational component. But there were a lot of ex-pats from Nova Scotia there who didn't even know how to properly prepare a lobster. With the chef on board going specifically through the process, it was very successful and I think seafood sales in some places tripled. People were out there saying, hey, are you going to the lobster festival tonight, and it was just a chef in a Sobeys store talking about how to cook lobster, so it was really successful.
We'd like to do the same thing around here, as well, the whole educational aspect around lobster promotion - probably on an Atlantic basis, as a matter of fact. I find it absolutely amazing how many people don't know how to properly prepare a lobster.
MR. THERIAULT: Thank you.
MR. HOSKING: As well, I was just going to mention CATCH. It's a big Nova Scotia seafood festival, it's underway, it's being planned, and it's going to be June 27th and 28th
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down on the waterfront at the Cunard Centre. Planning is well underway, it's going to be a big, exciting festival where we will have chefs there showing the preparation of seafood - lobster will be one of them - chef competitions, and they're bringing some speakers in on health and Omega 3s and how that relates to seafood consumption. We'll have restaurants there preparing seafood in various forms and fashions. We'll also have industry participation - they can take a booth and be there to communicate all about their products and what they do. Hopefully we'll have a couple of boats on the waterfront there.
It's all about creating excitement and interest around our seafood industry, but also the whole culinary aspect. We want that to be a really important part of it, as well, how versatile, interesting and the many things you can do with seafood in Nova Scotia. But lobster will be a big part of it all, too, that's the local aspect.
MR. THERIAULT: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Belliveau.
MR. STERLING BELLIVEAU: I want to thank the member for Digby-Annapolis for that lead-in on the fisheries. I think we touched on it earlier - we said we are on to something here when we buy local - the phenomenon that went around the fishing industry this December, and we all know about the low prices with the lobster.
This is a story that I want to share with you. As the fishermen were on their way to Halifax, they wanted to quickly find out where to go, where to be located and if there were any regulations on doing this process, and this just spontaneously happened. A number of them came to the city and one story in particular, the individual called me and wanted to be located somewhere in the Dartmouth area. He called ahead and literally just stopped in on one of the car salesmen - I'm not going to give a name here, there were a number of them - and they were very kind to these individuals. This particular business, the person stopped and said, I'd like to know where I can locate in the city to give the consumers a deal. He said, you can locate right here in my front area here. They removed two of their brand-new cars, put the individual out there with his truck and lobster, and he was front and centre.
As the story goes he was sold out within two or three hours, the consumers were very satisfied and the business owner went on to say, whenever you need to come back to the city, this place is yours. It's a very good story because that story went the whole way through our industry. And as you're familiar with the VHF, you couldn't ask for a better advertisement for that auto salesman.
Unfortunately, the price was not where everybody wanted it and it didn't satisfy all of the industry. This was just a small percentage of fishermen who actually went to the city and got a higher price for their product.
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The point I'm trying to make here is I think we are on to something about the consumer wanting to be involved in buying this local product - that's evident when you see this actually taking place, and the lobsters were basically sold out within hours. Just in my observation, when I'm home, one of my favourite meals with my family is a local surf and turf, whether it's fish, lobster - I know where the product comes from, I know where the meat comes from, I know where the homemade bread comes from . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Belliveau, is there a question? (Laughter)
MR. BELLIVEAU: There's a question here, but what I'm trying to make you feel is that the same feeling we have there around that summer event, or my home event, is the same fuzzy feeling people had about buying that lobster in December. What you're saying about these 11 regional Incredible Picnics, I'd like to see some more spread across the - I think we're on to something and I think we need to take that one step further and promote that to the local family picnic, or whatever, but that's what the promotion needs.
Do you see that? That's my question - what's the next step in that direction, around the promotion of all these products, whether it's wine, bread, meat or fish? People feel great about buying local and being involved in that and, to me, we need to take it to the next step and just push it and promote it more - even if it's the family picnic, a barbeque, or whatever. Is there a promotion? What is the plan to push that in the future, or is there a plan?
MS. REYNOLDS: I get a lot of calls from people who are interested in doing something in their community, so part of it is trying to position Select Nova Scotia, brand and messages, as an overarching umbrella in offering support, logistics, connections with producers, helping with event planning. I think there's a local meal that's happening in Pictou County - maybe it just occurred - there's another one happening in Musquodoboit Harbour and there's an April Flavours event happening in Wolfville. So we're staying connected and in some ways helping to network those individuals because they're key community organizers, and encouraging producers to know about these events and get in touch if they want to be part of it, because I think that direct contact is not something that most producers have unless they sell through a farmers' market, so it's something really key.
I would say that community suppers are something I've been eyeing in terms of a possibility of featuring the local products and trying to have that message because those are, again, cornerstones or real social events throughout the province and if they start to incorporate local into that, then that's sort of like you said, warm and fuzzy, but it really reinforces, I think, a lot of values that Nova Scotians hold and local brings forward.
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: I think, too, in terms of tourism, we can probably do a lot better job with our partners in tourism and making it easy for them to add food into local festivals and events and extend our reach there. So I agree with you, I think if you make it real to people, when they see it on their plate it's very motivating.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Belliveau. I'm going to jump into the fray here before I start my second list - I do have three speakers already.
I'm really glad you came, I appreciate everything that you've said. I want to say that I see the possibility of writing legislation on buying local to be particularly difficult because of our interprovincial trade agreement. I think Chapter 9 has a limiting clause that says you can't interfere with the flow of agricultural goods. Writing to try to set some conditions around buying local in legislation I see as a problem, without having the other provinces buying into that.
The 40 per cent ground beef that you mentioned, when that plant in P.E.I. was built it was the idea of 30 months and younger, wasn't it, the cattle going through that? The real issue after BSE was cull cows, or cull cattle - the older cattle - and we really could have used a plan to get rid of those animals that we were trying to cull. I think the dairy industry in Nova Scotia will produce all of the ground beef that Nova Scotia consumes, let alone creating a beef industry. You may not be able to answer this, and I'll just put it out there only to note that I'm assuming they're not going to want to take cull cows into that plant, or over 30 months, because that's going to cause a wrinkle as far as specific risk material, et cetera. Am I right in that regard?
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: I don't know the answer to your question. I know there has been some discussion on that 30-month rule and I must say, I do not know where that is.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm going to rain on the "promote Atlantic" parade. I am not keen on that and the reason I'm not keen on that is this works very well for the retailers, it doesn't work that well for producers. To me the retailers are holding all the cards in this deal. The fact that we have no hog industry, in part, is because they needed a bigger price, so from processing through to retailing wasn't willing to pay that price. That comes to what Mr. Theriault was saying about the 99 cent hams. If there had been 10 cents a kilo more, or whatever, for those hogs, that money and the $100 million that's generated in the economy by the hog producers, and whatever other jobs - processing - would have stayed here and I think Nova Scotians would have been glad to do that.
So to say that we're going to promote Atlantic, we bring in the equivalent of 9,000 head of cattle a month to feed Nova Scotians and we used to finish about 8,000 a year. That's somewhere in the range of $200 million. If we were to put in a program to try to, depending on what the beef strategy is, enhance the beef industry - or let's say, better still, if New Brunswick was going to do it and we weren't going to do it and they get a thriving beef industry, as far as the stores are concerned, they're labelled Atlantic and that's good for them, but that's not good for Nova Scotia producers. To put $350,000 or $1 million or $10,000 into Select Nova Scotia or select Atlantic, I don't know why Nova Scotia taxpayers would want to pay to promote products from some other province. I wouldn't be all that keen on it.
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I think it's time to draw a line in the sand for retailers. I mean I know they want a good product and they want it available when they need it, and that's the obstacle I think we should do, that we should help the industry with, but they're not mandated to buy anything local, they can get it from wherever. But governments are mandated to try to look after producers or the economy, not the retailers.
So I think they'd say yes, it's a great idea, and probably all of their - maybe lots of their research shows that people are keen on buying local and they'd like to have it, within limitations. I see buying Atlantic as one of the limitations they're willing to live with because it makes it easier for them, but I don't necessarily see it making it better for producers and that's where I think we should be starting.
As a matter of fact, instead of saying necessarily a percentage of local that's being consumed or that's in the stores, we should have a goal of a percentage increase in farms or farmers, because let's say we increased it by 50 per cent but we didn't have any more farmers in Nova Scotia - there was 50 per cent more local in the stores, or Atlantic let's say, but we don't have any more farmers in Nova Scotia - as a matter of fact, we might have less - what advantage has that been for our economy?
[10:30 a.m.]
So I have a big problem with promoting buying Atlantic because I see it kind of catering to, you know, the same notion that for the people who now hold all the cards, we might have taken one card away a little bit, or half a card, but still basically they're going to hold all the cards. I don't think that's in the best interests of Nova Scotia farmers.
So I'm curious, I guess, around my charge about the interprovincial trade agreement, Chapter 9, the limiting clause, whether I'm right there, and my impression from you is that you're kind of more keen on the Atlantic promotion. So if you are, what's the role of Select Nova Scotia if we're going to promote "buy Atlantic"?
MR. HOSKING: I think Select Nova Scotia is always going to be a really important aspect of our buy local. I mean it has a lot within the whole food-service side of things, and as I mentioned earlier, they consume a huge volume of product and most of it higher - they're willing to pay those necessary margins because they developed those relationships and allow those producers to produce specifically what even an individual chef will require. So within the whole food-service side of things, all the direct markets, Select will always be there. It will always, I think, have a presence within aspects of retail and we want to push it even further.
Actually, the whole drive for "brand Atlantic" came from the Federation of Agriculture and producers, that wasn't us. I mean we can see the merits and the logic behind it, but as Select Nova Scotia evolved, a lot of the conversation that sort of surrounded it was
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from some of the bigger producers, and the federation itself is largely behind this, they were kind of the drivers of the whole movement - again, it didn't come internally from us.
I don't think Select Nova Scotia's budget will be cannibalized at all. I mean we're looking to seek external additional funding to do this to just encourage the whole local aspect on a regional basis. So I don't look to our budget, any percentage of it or tens of thousands, anything at all being removed. Anything there will be incremental and additional to places like possibly ACOA. That plan is sort of being talked about, how we can secure the funding. There is interest from various pools but I don't think any of us were looking to take our own provincial because we all have our own provincial programs. We didn't want to tap into that at all. This is all sort of additional messaging and promotion around supporting local on a regional basis. That's my understanding to date. Again, it's still evolving.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, maybe I'll take it up with the federation. Those things that we're exporting - blueberries, apples, you know, whatever - I mean they're going beyond Atlantic. You know they're going global but the things we're not, beef and hogs, for example, I can't see where - well, to the federation it must be obvious that we're not even doing it locally, so why would we talk Atlantic? You know 9,000 head of cattle a month that we're consuming and we're not - if we could fill that market, we'd have $200 million going into the rural economy. So it seems to be kind of at cross purposes to me, but anyway.
The second list: Mr. Muir, then I have Mr. Glavine, then I have Mr. Dunn and Mr. Parker.
MR. MUIR: Thank you. Mr. Theriault mentioned fish. We have a whole lot of fish farmers here in Nova Scotia because they put on a little do for MLAs every year. One of the things I don't see designated in fish displays in supermarkets is that it is Nova Scotian. What is the reason for that?
MR. HOSKING: I guess it would be the same as the rest of the products.
MR. MUIR: I mean like Co-op advertises, you know, 70 per cent of our beef comes from Atlantic Canada, or whatever it is, so you've got a 70 per cent chance. I'm just curious about the fish.
MR. HOSKING: I don't know the answer to that one.
MR. MUIR: Anyway, I had an interest at one time - Millbrook Reserve is in my constituency and they have an Arctic char fishery there, and trying to figure out where they sold their Arctic char. Now, they've joined in with somebody else, a marketer now - they were pretty good at production, not so good at the marketing and they got a marketer who was really good at marketing, not so good at production. So hopefully it's going better now.
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The other thing with scallops, now, Mr. Theriault talks about - what did you call them? - the love food of Nova Scotia or something like it, whatever it was. What was it?
MR. THERIAULT: From the "love capital".
MR. MUIR: Oh, from the "love capital", that's what it was - the "romantic capital", whatever it was. In particular with scallops, they don't label them as Digby scallops anymore, they label them as deep-sea scallops, I think - is that correct? What's the reason for that?
Now, I toured a fish plant down in Yarmouth a few years ago and I know one of the places that big scallops come from is Russia. They say that you can tell the difference between a local scallop and a Russian scallop by the colour, that the local scallops are whiter, is that right? I'm looking at the fishermen in the crowd here.
MR. BELLIVEAU: I go by the taste.
MR. MUIR: By the taste. Now, I get some scallops from the North Shore, too, so anyway. Just in terms of marketing, that seems to me to be kind of a no-brainer, to tell where those scallops came from.
The other two things, Mr. MacDonell mentioned the interprovincial trade barriers. We sit here and we talk about buying Nova Scotian and I think we do have to realize that - you know, the Americans are talking about buying only American steel now and you saw that we have people down in Washington now telling them that's not a good thing. So we have to be careful about how far we take this and I think we all recognize that.
The other thing I wanted to mention is this issue of food security, which comes up from time to time. One of the things about buying locally produced food is that we can be pretty sure we're buying good, safe food. Is that something you deal with in your marketing at all, or is it something that you've considered and tossed out?
MR. HOSKING: No, I mean that's certainly one of the attributes of the brand we're trying to build is the food security, food safety related to Nova Scotia product. I mean we have to be careful what we say but, when appropriate, we make that part of our promotions. But it's certainly a positive, it's to our benefit.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Muir, I'm going to have to cut you off there.
MR. MUIR: That's fine, thank you. I have a couple more but . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Glavine.
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MR. GLAVINE: Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. There's no question there's a great appetite now for the buy local, and Select Nova Scotia is only one part of the equation, I think, in promoting it. I think all Nova Scotians need to take some of the responsibility of moving the buy local forward, because I think sustainable food production is the wave of the future, growing as much as you can within your own province - you know how it's grown, easy traceability and high nutritional content.
I saw a little farm market on the outskirts of Kingston, a farmer started off on the back of a truck. He now has a building that he operates out of year-round, with only Nova Scotia-grown products. That has come about, I think, because of this whole wave and the talk, and the area that I still feel so strongly about is promotion in every month of the year.
Now, Nova Scotia Power needs a little positive boost; 450,000 Nova Scotians get a bill every month, or every other month. I think a little promotional chart inside that bill someday would be a great way to reach 450,000 households on the value of buying local because you listed them, Scott - provincial economy, enhancing the farmer and the farm community, and the other values that we do have, lowering our carbon footprint, all these things are so important.
My colleague, John, who is very much in touch with the farm community, did hit on an important area and that is that as much as we will endorse and move towards the buy local, the farmer still has to get an adequate dollar for his product. We do have some farmers who are putting product into the bins of the two big chains - RANS, for example, grow over 400 acres of broccoli; Vermeulen, over 200 acres of market garden crops; and Kidston's with their blueberries and potatoes and other products.
I still believe that the Department of Agriculture has missed an important opportunity to help farmers. It could have saved the hog industry, I believe, because we did consume about 60 per cent of all the pork - all of the pork in Nova Scotia was locally produced. If the Kelco report had to get the endorsement and will of the Department of Agriculture, it was not without some difficulties of logistical implementation. But if every kilogram of food produced in Nova Scotia, if 1 or 2 cents were to directly go back to the farmer, I think it was an avenue for farmer success and I think we've missed a golden opportunity.
A great example is in New Brunswick. New Brunswick does not have the same capability for apple production as we have but every kilogram of apples sold in New Brunswick, no matter where it comes from, has 1 cent added on that goes back to the farmer. They are starting, through the Saint John River Valley, to revitalize the apple industry there. I think the Department of Agriculture needs to revisit the Kelco report, start a pilot project that will help and add onto this buy local movement. So those are just my thoughts, thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Parker.
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MR. PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, just a couple of short snappers, I guess. The $350,000 budget you have, does that include salaries or is that entirely promotional money?
MR. HOSKING: Promotional.
MR. PARKER: So your own salaries are within the Department of Agriculture budget then, okay.
We talked about institutions, correctional centres, and we also have schools and long-term care homes and so on. Do you know what percentage right now is buy local, or what percentage are they getting from the local market of food products?
MR. HOSKING: We don't have those specific numbers. I know that the majority of the dairy is obviously from Nova Scotia; produce, when in season, substantial volumes; and poultry and eggs. But as far as the actual numbers, we don't have those. To some extent we may get a little bit of that when we do the study I referred to earlier, that procurement study, but we don't have that data, no. We don't really have any control over the data because they're individual entities that are not under the umbrella of any kind of government purchasing. Health care purchasing entities are sort of their own . . .
MR. PARKER: It just seems like we've got government departments, we've got long-term care institutions, we've got schools, and jails were mentioned. In order to add value to those, we need to know where we're at, what percentage now are we supplying, or are the institutions buying from Nova Scotia farmers or fishermen, whatever. So you need a baseline in order to figure where and how to increase it.
MR. HOSKING: And that's our goal with this piece of research, to try to understand that as best as possible, so we can know the actual percentages of headway that we're making.
MR. PARKER: A lot of Nova Scotians in all those institutions I've just mentioned, that could add up to a lot of value for Nova Scotia farmers.
I guess the final question I wanted to ask; I grew up in a farming family and we used to supply a lot of produce to our local Sobeys stores - and Dominion at that time - and Superstore and so on. It was just an easy matter of calling up the produce manager - we have fresh corn today or fresh beans, or whatever, how much can you handle? But now it's pretty near impossible to do that and you can't supply just one store, you have to be able to supply like 100 stores almost. Are there any plans to help small producers break into that big market? They're shut out now, really.
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MS. REYNOLDS: I don't know a lot of the details but I believe that Horticulture Nova Scotia has had some conversations with Sobeys and they are looking at - I think they were piloting at one of the stores in New Minas, a backdoor policy. I'm not sure where it's led and if it's being implemented province-wide, but there is a little bit of interest from the retailers. I think they've seen that maybe they've swung too far and there are some opportunities - there's consumer demand and opportunities . . .
[10:45 a.m.]
MR. PARKER: There's certainly an opportunity for the small producer, if they can find a market and most of the market is in the big, big stores so somehow they've got to get that market share back.
MS. LINDA MACDONALD: Yes, certain producers do have certain dispensations to allow them in through the back door. And some commodities, too, like lamb - there's direct delivery of Nova Scotia lamb into individual retail locations.
I think the more producers get out of sort of the commodity business and into more differentiated kinds of products or an ability to service the retailer, add value that way, they'll have more luck with direct store delivery. The more their products are like commodity products - corn from Quebec and Ontario - the less likely they are going to be able to deliver backdoor.
So where we've had luck, I think, and where retailers have been more amenable to being flexible, as I say, if they're able to provide better service or differentiate a product in some way, and value-added products, they'll be able to get in.
MR. PARKER: Okay, thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Dunn.
MR. DUNN: Just a quick comment, because Mr. Parker's second question was actually one I was going to hit on, dealing with the awareness, the educational part of it, the cafeterias in our schools and so on. In fact, you're probably working through the Department of Education with regard to what's happening in the schools. As Mr. Parker mentioned about all the other institutions - and we have a lot of cafeterias across the province and if you're targeting the owners of these cafeterias and places where we consume food, just from the educational point of it and it will, of course, increase the demand for local stuff but the spinoffs will be very good for us.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Any other members have a question? I'm going to give you the last word, Mr. Hosking, if you want to have some summary comments before we let you go.
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MR. HOSKING: Sure. I'm very pleased to have the opportunity again to chat with you, I think it's very important to hear what you have to say. I know from your constituents you have a lot of direct feedback and it's always important for us to hear that. That always enhances what we're trying to do to have that information and to assist us in guiding Select Nova Scotia. We continue to be very excited about it, to be part of something where there's such a strong momentum at all levels, to sit with chefs who are so excited about knowing this producer who is producing a specific vegetable that he can use and tell people about, or to talk with guys at the direct market level or the cottage wineries. It is really exciting, the people who are interested in local and how local relates to the whole slow food movement.
I think we're really a part of something that is very positive and important and we look forward to continuing and enhancing what we're doing and really to help the producers and the processors of the province to ensure the sustainable rural communities. It's an exciting vehicle to be on right now.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thanks very much. We appreciate all the information that you've given us. I think it is good food for thought for the members. (Laughter) We'd be interested to see how Select Nova Scotia moves on in the future.
One thing I noticed in your presentation - in so many places you used buy local, so I'm wondering why you didn't call it buy local?
MR. HOSKING: There are issues pertaining to when it's described as local. We wanted this to be a Nova Scotia program and through the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, local can in certain situations mean that it's produced within a certain geographic range, I believe it's 50 kilometres. We didn't want to get into that, we wanted something that would benefit everybody and promote agriculture from one end of the province to the other. We wanted somebody who produces strawberries in the Valley to be able to sell them wherever. That was one of the main reasons.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thanks very much. Members, please, if you can stick around for a few minutes, we have some business items to take care of for the future, so we'll try to get at that.
MR. HOSKING: We have bags here for everybody with a few t-shirts and other items and some of our collateral material. So on your way out if you want to just grab one of those, we'll leave them there for everybody.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, members, for sticking around, I guess you were kind of obligated for the next 12 minutes or so. A couple of items - number one, I think from what I've been told we're trying to, or hopefully staff are trying to cut down on the paper that goes out as far as briefing materials. I think all the other committees have signed on to go electronic, so what we really need to know from this committee is if they'd be amenable to
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the idea of the caucus researcher getting one paper copy and then all members would get an electronic copy. Am I right on that, Jana?
MS. JANA HODGSON (Legislative Committee Clerk): Yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the committee agreed on that?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Our March meeting - and we don't have anybody actually on the agenda for that so I'm hoping to take care of that - is March 17th which is March break. I want to know from the committee if you have a date that you prefer, March 10th, 12th, or 26th, does it make any difference? The 26th would be from 9:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. the same as this, the other two are in the afternoon.
MR. MUIR: March 26th sounds funny to me, or I shouldn't say it sounds funny - it sounds like a day that . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the Premier making an announcement that day? (Laughter)
MR. MUIR: Oh, I know what it is, I'm going down to Junior's company on March 26th.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, March 10th or 12th?
MR. PARKER: When does Human Resources meet, do you have any idea? I hope it's not the same time.
MS. HODGSON: March 31st.
MR. PARKER: Okay, no problem.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Jana, maybe we'll just let you, it sounds like March 10th or 12th is fine.
MR. MUIR: March 12th.
MS. HODGSON: Okay.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Just to let members know, the egg producers are tentatively booked for April but we don't have a March presenter. Everybody should have a copy of who offered what. The Progressive Conservative caucus had mentioned the egg producers, so we got them on the list in the hopes that they'll be here in April, we don't have that confirmed.
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I am wondering about a couple of options - one is the Nova Scotia Environmental Network, who wanted to respond to the Mining Association around uranium mining. Actually, they were approved June 17th and we've never had them here, so that's one that I'm going to put forward and if anybody else has whatever. The other one is the possibility, in response to today's presentation - the Canadian Council of Grocery Distributors. I'm just wondering what members' thoughts are?
MR. PARKER: I think that would be a good idea. We've heard from their side, but we haven't heard from the big retailers and it would be an excellent idea.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Glavine, I think you wanted to say something?
MR. GLAVINE: Wayne and I had been chatting and, of course, the news in the last two or three weeks in the Valley has been all about ACA. The chicken producers are an integral part of the Co-op there and if this restructuring and so on and there is still huge dollars to creditors, boy, I'll tell you our chicken producers could really be taking a hit here. There is some CFIA information coming out that continuing to ship to northern New Brunswick may be an issue. I think hearing from our producers as to where their future lies and how they're going to deal with the pressures that are there right now - it may be a very timely group.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, I just want to be clear. When you say producers are you talking Chicken Farmers of Nova Scotia?
MR. GLAVINE: Yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We have three things out there, so . . .
MR. GAUDET: Let's leave it with staff, whatever witnesses are available to come in March?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, want to try those?
MR. MUIR: The only thing is if the egg people - if they haven't been approached, they might be able to come in March too.
MR. CHAIRMAN: No, I don't think they can, actually. I think that is why we have them down as far back as April.
MR. MUIR: Oh, okay.
MR. THERIAULT: Which came first, the chicken or the egg? (Laughter)
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MR. MUIR: The chicken thing would be very timely, no question about that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, Jana, whatever you find out from those three as far as time lines and I think just e-mail, we'll leave the decision with you, I guess, because we're not going to have a chance to . . .
MR. THERIAULT: I'll just get that put on the list.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, sorry. Go ahead.
MR. THERIAULT: All I want to do is mention that I've had a request from a group down home about wind energy and windmills and they would like to come into Resources to do a presentation some time. I think the gist of it is they would like to see the province take more control about bylaws, rather than the 52 municipalities around the province.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Just add it to the Liberal list.
MR. MUIR: You should talk to the Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations when they were talking about putting that wind farm out there on the Gulf shore.
MR. PARKER: Is that an issue for this committee as much as the Economic Development Committee?
MR. THERIAULT: It's resources.
MR. GAUDET: It's a resource.
MR. PARKER: It fits both, really.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't see any reason why we couldn't or shouldn't hear it, so. Did I miss anything, Jana?
MS. HODGSON: No, that's fine.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Do the members have anything they want to raise? Okay, I want to say thanks, nice to see as many of you that were able to make it. Until next time.
We are adjourned.
[The committee adjourned at 11:01 a.m.]
