MR. CHAIRMAN: Welcome to our meeting. We are glad you are here. We want to welcome our special guests: Mr. John Alphonse, Mr. Peter Power, Mr. Scott MacMillan and Mr. Mike Cowie. Thank you for coming and for taking time out of your day and we appreciate your attendance.
We are delighted - at least I speak personally - at the news that came out about the $560 million for culture, and we look forward to Nova Scotia getting its fair share of that money for culture. That is sort of a good note to start on.
What we will do is introduce everybody - they will introduce themselves - and then our practice is to allow the guests to present, and then we go around the table, in a fairly informal fashion, with members asking questions or making comments as they would like to. We are going to divide it into two: Mr. Alphonse, we will have you first, and then we will have discussion and comments - although others, I know, can join in on that topic - then we will move to the topic of the image and status of the musician in Canada with you, Mr. Power.
So we will go around the table, starting with the caucus chairman, and introduce ourselves and our ridings, please.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you and welcome, and the floor is yours.
MR. JOHN ALPHONSE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good morning, ladies and gentlemen. If you will permit me, I would like to read my opening remarks.
We are very pleased to be here this morning to talk about the role the Atlantic Federation of Musicians plays in the business of music in the Province of Nova Scotia. I will begin with a brief history. Our international organization is the American Federation of Musicians of the United States and Canada, which represents approximately 150,000 musicians in North America. We are 105 years old and our international membership includes the likes of Ricky Martin, Shania Twain, Aerosmith, Bryan Adams, Rita MacNeil, Grand Dérangement, Lennie Gallant and members of Symphony Nova Scotia, to name a few. Our membership includes all levels of musicianship, from amateur musicians starting out to artists of stature.
As a veteran musician of 28 years, I know as well as anybody the importance of working together in an organization that best represents the interests of the working musician. For 28 years, the AFM gave me that support so I could live and work in dignity, and be compensated fairly for my services as a professional musician. Now, 28 years later, the music industry has changed and it has grown.
The AFM continues to negotiate national collective agreements for its members, which include CBC Radio and Television, the Phonograph Record Labour Agreement, the National Film Board Agreement, Television and Radio Commercial Announcements Agreement, the Television Film Agreement and the Basic Theatrical Motion Picture Agreement, along with many others. My office negotiates local, provincial and regional agreements for the services of professional musicians - their fees, pension contributions and working conditions - with such organizations as the East Coast Music Association, Neptune Theatre and Symphony Nova Scotia.
The AFM in Nova Scotia, which also includes Local 355 in Cape Breton Island, has approximately 1,100 members. There are many benefits to membership in the AFM. One such benefit is the recording industry's Music Performance Trust Funds. The MPTF is the largest employer of musicians in North America. It has been in existence for over 50 years and is described as one of the finest examples of labour/management co-operation in the world, extolled by government leaders at every level and every political persuasion. In Nova Scotia, AFM receives approximately $50,000 annually from this international fund, to present concerts in venues as diverse as parks, shopping malls, concert halls, veterans' hospitals, nursing homes and increasingly in schools.
Today's music programs in our public schools struggle to survive, yet at AFM we know that music education enhances a child's ability to read and learn. And responding to the situation, the Atlantic Federation of Musicians has made music education the major focus of our activities through the MPTF, with approximately 100 concerts featuring our members performing annually in the schools throughout the Province of Nova Scotia. In addition, we
present four $500 student scholarships to musicians attending university for the first time. This year our recipients are from Truro and the Annapolis Valley.
In 1998, the Nova Scotia Government and the AFM partnered in the International Years of Music Program. Through this program the AFM coordinated 75 public concerts which were staged in all counties in mainland Nova Scotia and Cape Breton Island, for our citizens and visiting tourists. The expenditure allocated by government and the MPTF was approximately $70,000 and went directly into the pockets of the musicians who were providing the services for our public and tourists. This program is a good example of government and the AFM working together in recognizing the value of musicians and how they contribute to our economy and the important role they play in our community.
Mr. Chairman, earlier I said the music industry has changed. I want to be clear when I say the work of the AFM has not changed. Our work in the industry is to represent the music makers - musicians, singers, songwriters, conductors, composers - full-time or part-time, recording musicians or non-recording musicians; the men and women who have spent years and years of their lives studying music, practising their instruments every day and developing and growing as musicians through their skills and talent. Some of these people are on the bottom of the totem pole in the music industry because of the changes.
Mr. Chairman, I believe when money is invested in the music industry in Nova Scotia, a percentage of that money allocated would be better served if it was earmarked for the employment of musicians, for without the musicians there would be no music industry in this province.
Joining me for question period is the former President of the Atlantic Federation of Musicians, and now consultant to the local, Mr. Peter Power; and two musicians who each have over 25 years' experience not only as musicians, but also as band leaders and music producers and conductors. They are two examples of successful musicians in our province who have been able to go to the top in our area, due to their smarts and their independence in terms of being able to marry music and business together; with that all having been said, Scott MacMillan and Mike Cowie. I would like to throw it back to you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very, very much; I am sure we will have questions. We will start, going clockwise, with the member for Dartmouth South, if you have any questions or comments.
MR. TIMOTHY OLIVE: I will pass for now, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Eastern Shore.
MR. WILLIAM DOOKS: I pass, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Sackville-Beaver Bank.
MR. BARRY BARNET: I won't pass. First of all, I would like to welcome you, as well, and I am pleased to have you in attendance, particularly Mike. I must say I was a Mooseheads fan and I told Mike earlier that I think he is the single reason why the Mooseheads haven't done so well in the last couple of years. (Laughter) Mooseheads fans have a fetish for seeing a grown man with a horn in a diaper standing on the glass. We haven't seen that for a while.
I guess I was particularly interested in the fact that when I stepped in, I read the Atlantic Federation of Music and I was amazed at the list of people you said were members, but it is the American Federation of Music that they are members of and, in terms of the role of the AFM here in Nova Scotia, you spelled it out pretty succinctly, but are you - what you call - promoters of the industry here? How would you describe your general role in terms of developing new talent, that kind of stuff; is there any role?
MR. ALPHONSE: First of all, our role is not for the industry per se. Our role in the industry is to represent the musicians. In this music industry in this province, we have booking agents, we have managers, we have all of the people you are familiar with, who make their living in the music industry. They are promoting bands; they are booking bands; they are nightclub owners booking bands; they are record producers; engineers; and so on. This industry in the province has grown, fortunately, for those people, and fortunately for some of our people. Our people are the musicians.
The role that we play is to represent their rights and their working conditions, their compensation for their services. Twenty-five years ago, in this town, there were approximately 100 bands working constantly, 52 weeks a year, for excellent wages. Unfortunately, the industry has gone in such a way that there are not as many venues in which to perform, however, there are five times as many musicians today and, therefore, it is difficult for them to maintain and to make a living. That is partly why you will see a lot of musicians performing on one bill, on Spring Garden Road, in a venue; five bands in one club in one night.
What that means to me is they are not being represented properly. They don't have my representation, because they are going in to perform for nothing. They are giving their services away to help a businessman develop his business and sell his alcohol and beer and so on. When you have five bands in a venue, you are going to do a big business that evening. Our role is to try to bring these people onside as a collective group, to be a part of our large international organization, to act as one for all and all for one, in terms of being able to protect them.
MR. BARNET: A friend of mine, somebody I play hockey with, has been in the music industry for a long time. In the 1960's and 1970's, the bands that he played in and led were bands that sold significant numbers of records. Obviously, he still receives a royalty. He continues on in the industry, but he struggles. I know that because he tells me from time to time how difficult it is for him as a performer to continue making a reasonable enough living in the business. He is fortunate that he has put himself in a position where he can continue on as a musician, but he said there are a number of people like him who have been forced to go back into what he calls mainstream working and actually get a real job, is what he said. It is disappointing. I know Bruce is a hard worker, he is a good musician, and there are other people like him that want to continue making a living right up until their time of retirement, and it seems that only a select few actually do that.
What is it that your organization can do to help people like Bruce, who did well in the 1960's and 1970's in the bands that he played in, but now has progressed beyond where the type of music he played is listened to and is considered popular music? What can you do to help people like him?
MR. ALPHONSE: One thing we can do is we have licensed booking agents in the AFM and managers, and these people, of course, are looking for talent all the time. Somebody like Bruce could contact the office, and we could give him a list of the names of all of the licensed agents and managers within AFM for the entire continent. Then he could take it upon himself to try to sell his music through certain markets within Canada and the United States, where he might, in fact, find opportunities for employment. Would you like to add something to that, Mike? Mike Cowie has just recently released a new CD, so he is now in a new marketplace as a leader on a CD as opposed to a producer of the CD, and he has produced many. Now, as a leader on a CD, he has to try to find markets where that will become popular and he will be successful for his investment.
MR. MIKE COWIE: It is hard to deal with the specifics of one person, why they are doing this or why they are successful and why they are not, because there are all kinds of reasons for everything. The musicians' union sort of sets the template, all the musicians vote on how much we want to work for minimum, when we go out; we vote on how we are going to treat playing for benefits to help other people; we vote on how and when we are going to be compensated for our services. Then those are the laws we all go by. We set a minimum; it is a minimum thing. It is also support where, if an organization decides not to pay you or pays you less, which often happens to us, the musicians' union goes in and gets our money. I have had that happen a couple of times to me.
It is really a template, it is really hard, without knowing this fellow, Bruce's full story. There could be all kinds of reasons, if he stopped smoking cigarettes, I don't know. I don't know the guy, right? I know it is hard, because I have been a professional musician for 28 years and it is harder every year to make a living. You have to constantly change and grow. That is up to the individual, but I look at the AFM to support me when I go out to
work that I am going to make at least this much money, when I go out to play. They are the only organization that we have that looks after my interests as a musician.
Other organizations look after the managers, the people who make posters, and the people who put on events and want to make money. A good example is, you can look at the average home of a musician and the average home of someone who is in the music industry, and the story is right there. You can look at their cars; you can look at the way they are dressed. The musicians' union cuts down on the exploitation factor for the working musician.
MR. SCOTT MACMILLAN: I would like to add something there, the other way that the AFM helps me a lot is in the recording business where if you document your recording on an AFM contract, then as a musician, down the road, you are actually contributing to your pension fund. When I am an older fellow, I would like to be able to have a pension. The only way I can get that pension is actually to have created input.
The other thing, too, is, I don't know if you are familiar with neighbouring rights, what that means is if you are on a recording, say you are a saxophone player, and the producer says, could you just play a little bit of a lick off the top and create a bit of an intro on this thing. You play an inspiring little piece of music and all of a sudden that is the little thing that everybody hears, oh, that is that song. Then two seconds later the singing begins, but you know the song because of your saxophone lick. In a way, you would be entitled to have a little bit of royalty out of that, because all of a sudden your improvisation is very much part of the piece. If your name appears on your AFM recording contract, if that documentation is through the AFM, then you would receive a neighbouring right.
The documentation of the AFM is, again, Mike is very true in saying, support. We do need the support of each other, because otherwise we are just ants on the hill running around. This is a way for us, the source of the music, to be able to be united.
MR. BARNET: Just one more quick question, if I may. I recall, vaguely, a couple of years ago at New Year's there was an event where - and I am not certain whether it was your association or others - a performer wasn't able to play because he wasn't a member or hadn't had a membership for a period of time. What is the relationship between AFM members and non-members in terms of performing at events?
MR. PETER POWER: Well, it is just the same as any other union. If you can imagine the construction of a building going up for the Province of Nova Scotia, you wouldn't imagine seeing a non-member of the electricians' union or the plumbers' union working on that job, would you? You already have an image of a union. That is the image that everybody in this room has. It is the same philosophy.
MR. BARNET: Non-members aren't permitted to participate . . .
MR. POWER: They don't work with non-members. That is motherhood in any union.
MR. BARNET: I recall, and I forget now what it was, I think it was the son or something of a performer who was just playing a gig or a song and it wasn't permitted. It made the news at the time, but I don't recall who the performers were. I was just kind of curious about that. I just wasn't certain exactly what the particular issue was, but I know that in the end he was required to take out a membership in the AFM in order for him to be able to play, and there were some time frames in terms of getting down to the last day before New Year's Eve.
MR. POWER: The union doesn't crack eggs with sledgehammers. If it is your nephew who is just going to sit in and sing a song or your daughter is going to sing a song with the band, there is no objection to that. It is just if they are going to augment the band for the whole evening and provide more musicians than were contracted for with a non-member, then that creates unfair competition for other people who may have quoted on the engagement and followed the rules and regulations. You have to have some rules and regulations; you have to have some law and order among the musicians themselves. That is why there is the need for making some kind of level playing field.
MR. ALPHONSE: If I might add one thing to that, whatever the situation may have been, there would never at any time be a musician in that predicament who would have had no opportunity other than to join the AFM. That certainly is never the case. This is Canada. If you want to have access to employment, then you can make a decision on whether or not you want to become a member of the Teachers Union.
MR. BARNET: I think the real issue here was an issue around timing and holidays and that kind of stuff. I think in the end, it wasn't fully understood at the time that he was required to be a member in order to perform, so I think that was what the issue was, if I recall correctly.
MR. POWER: Anybody can acquire a temporary work permit within a matter of minutes so they would not be held up for the job opportunity.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The member for Guysborough-Port Hawkesbury.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: How many members across the province would you have; are they based mostly in Halifax or are they . . .
MR. ALPHONSE: I would say about 1,100 altogether. Mainland Nova Scotia has the majority of the membership and they are all over the province. I guess the majority of our number would be in metropolitan Halifax-Dartmouth. However, our members are continually working in all the counties in the province.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: Just before we started the meeting, we had a conversation about Symphony Nova Scotia going to Guysborough. Was that part of the AFM, would they be associated with that, or was that something that was done through . . .
MR. MACMILLAN: That is a question that I can't answer totally intelligently, but I know that all the members of the orchestra are AFM members and they have their own agreement, and of course myself. Now, the kids, I am not sure what arrangement the orchestra - I doubt they are members . . .
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: No, I am not suggesting that they were, but what kind of an experience did you have with that, going to an area like Guysborough County?
MR. MACMILLAN: Oh, that was a classic example of why I do what I do. It was heart-warming, productive, it was a win-win-win all the way. Fortunately, there was a donation from Sable gas so there was some cash that came forward to make it happen and the Canada Arts Council was involved too. The orchestra and I went for a day and worked with the kids and then three or four months later, I orchestrated it and the kids got to sing with the orchestra. So, it was a thrill for them, it really was, and a plus for the people who were there too. I wasn't playing in all the pieces so I was sitting in the orchestra playing and I could see the audience in the school gymnasium and there were a lot of 60 year olds and up who had never heard an orchestra before, let alone hearing their grandchildren sing with the orchestra. It was just outrageously wonderful.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: Are there any thoughts of going to other areas of the province now to do the same or similar . . .
MR. MACMILLAN: I imagine so. It was too good.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: Well, we are going to have a new auditorium in Guysborough in conjunction with the . . .
MR. MACMILLAN: The school right there, that is where it was. It was right at that school. (Interruptions)
MR. BARNET: The Ron Chisholm Auditorium. (Laughter)
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: We would welcome you back anyway.
MR. COWIE: I have had a little experience with that, I ran a program called We Believe In Music that in just over a year it raised over $100,000 for school band programs throughout mainland Nova Scotia. And there was no government funding; the Arts Council gave us $5,000, that was the only government funding. We raised this money by professional
musicians going into the schools, playing with the kids, the kids selling tickets and keeping half the proceeds.
[9:30 a.m.]
When you look at what the musicians create, I am a trumpet player, band leader, and I go out and I play my horn and I get paid. But also the guy who owns the hall that I am playing in gets paid; the guy who designs the poster gets paid; the guy who prints the poster gets paid; the truck that I rent to get to the gig gets paid; the music store where I buy my equipment, they make money; the other members in my band, the clothes that I buy to wear on stage. There is a huge pyramid that comes from this one musician. You know, you ask me how much I make, how much we make as individuals, that is one thing. But when you look at the money that we generate, that is a whole other thing.
What happens, it seems a lot of the time that because we love to play - especially when we are young we love to play, we want to play - that people come along and say, we are going to do this and we are going to pay you this, and we are happy to do it; we are the source. If it weren't for us, there would be nothing happening on the stage. It would be an empty stage and no one would be in the concert hall. The musicians' union protects us from that situation and tries to keep it - many times I have been on events where the person behind the bar pouring drinks makes more money than I am and the place is packed because I am there. The guy with the television camera is having a great time because he is going to pay for his rec room this weekend and he is making more money than I am.
The musicians' union evens out that field a little bit because it can get to the ridiculous as far as what people will ask you to do. In fact, here I am, 42 years old and a couple of weeks ago I called a guy in Montreal. I heard about a club up there that was booking funk bands - my new album is a funk album - so I called him and said, I have this hot band, go to my Web site, see the video, I want to come and play in Montreal. He goes, who is financing you? I said, I am coming to work. He goes, you don't understand, who is financing you? Like, he wanted me to pay to go up there and play. This is a top guy who was recommended to me by a top guy here.
I don't deal with people like that, but other people do. Other people are saying, listen, if we can just give this guy $500, we can go up there and play. The union is trying to say, listen, don't do that. If none of us do that, this guy would have to change his tactics.
MR. ALPHONSE: One of the things that Mike is saying in addition to giving examples of people who might purchase his music in Montreal, is that music and business are natural enemies. One of the things that is very common in the Province of Nova Scotia with my fellow musicians is that we don't distinguish the difference between the two. They are natural enemies and the reason for that is because we love what we do. Musicians love to play music. Thank God it's Friday is not an expression that is in our vocabulary. At 10:00
p.m. on a Friday night when the job is over, if they want us to play an extra hour, we will. At 4:00 p.m. on Friday when my secretary sees 4:00 p.m., she is gone. It is just the common love of music and because of our love of music, quite often in our industry we will be exploited. Unknowingly to ourselves, we are being exploited because we are very happy to do what we are asked to do.
One common example would be the many worthy charities in the community that call on our services on a regular basis. We are always happy to go out because musicians are very giving people. Quite often you will see our people performing in lounges or concert halls for a benefit, for any worthy charity. There might be eight or nine bands and if you were to take such an event where the benefactor, if you like, was to organize the event with a venue such as a local bar, they would receive the profits from the door and perhaps they could have a silent auction at the back of the room. The event might take place on a Monday or Tuesday because business is already fine on a Friday or Saturday. It is very common for four or five of our local popular, well-known groups to go in and do such an event and fill the place on the backs of the musicians, have the beneficiary take the door and perhaps the silent auction, and make pretty good money for the charity.
At the same time, one of those groups of musicians may be sitting at the bar having a beer prior to going on stage and speak to the bartender, as an example, off the top of my head, and the bartender would say something to the effect - and this has happened - we are donating 50 per cent of our tips to this event this evening. The musician would look at that person and say, well, you are only donating 50 per cent, what about the other 50 per cent? The response would be, well, we have to live.
Now a musician is doing it for no money at all. In fact, he is the reason that the club is filled and the staff are able to make those tips and the worthy charity is able to make a profit for their cause. But the problem with all of this, in terms of exploitation, and unknowingly, to many of the people in our community who use our services and call my office every day looking for bands without ever giving any consideration to the fact that it costs, not unlike calling a plumber or electrician if something blows up your building, you are going to pay for it. You are not going to think twice. This is common detail in the province.
The following morning when those people from whatever worthy charity go back to their office and they are standing around the coffee machine celebrating the success of that event that happened the evening before, my point is simply that when the musicians get up the following morning to go to their coffee machine in their apartments, that was their work. So musicians cannot afford to give away free samples. We have now got it to a point within our jurisdiction where the musicians and the purchasers or the people who are wishing to use the services of musicians are now budgeting into their costs the costs of the musicians. It is very common for Shania Twain and Bryan Adams and Paul McCartney to do these types of
events. You see it every night on the television. They can afford it. They can afford to do it. We aren't rich here.
The people in the music industry in the Province of Nova Scotia with four bedroom and five bedroom homes are not the musicians. They are the people who are making their livings off the backs of the musicians. As I said in my opening remarks, it is very important for somewhere, somebody to give some consideration along the way that when money is being allocated in the music industry to develop the music industry abroad, and I will speak of MIANS.
I believe the work of MIANS is good in terms of expanding the music industry abroad for this province and for this government, which subsidizes that organization, that is the Government of Nova Scotia. At the same time, the taxpayers in this province are the musicians, just like everybody else. They are the residents. They need to live. They need to survive. They need to buy food and put their children through school and pay their mortgages or rent for their apartments each month. Those are the people I represent. I don't represent the people with the five bedroom homes. I think it is important for me to say this morning only because, in the future, if the opportunity of money is being allocated to subsidize an organization, some of that money should be earmarked to go into the pockets of the people who, in fact, those people are representing.
Now, with that having been said, I would have to say that MIANS is an organization that represents industry professionals. Their board of directors is a 15 member board; there is one musician on the board. I served on that board the very first year that organization was brought up. It is an industry organization. More power to the industry, but, please, more power to the musicians.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Dartmouth South.
MR. OLIVE: John, the Foundation to Assist Canadian Talent on Records, last year Nova Scotia was fourth in the country in securing funding behind Ontario, Quebec and B.C. Their budget has gone from about $200,000 to $7 million. What is the association between that fund and the AFM and what role does that funding play in the success or failure of things like you just finished talking about in Nova Scotia?
MR. ALPHONSE: I don't know a lot about FACTOR. I will tell you that the AFM regulated the rates for FACTOR, and the musicians and the writers who are applying for FACTOR grants in Canada will contact the AFM locals throughout Canada to find out what the rates for services are in the recording sessions.
In the Province of Nova Scotia, of course, MIANS manages the affairs of the business for FACTOR. The funniest thing is, I am the one that is always getting these calls to these specs on what exactly is required. I don't know any more than that on FACTOR at
this point, other than we were managing the affairs of FACTOR for a number of years through our Canadian office.
MR. MACMILLAN: I can give you an example of the relationship. I just finished a recording two weeks ago and it was FACTOR-funded. It is an orchestra recording so there were 45 musicians employed as a result of tapping into that fund. They were employed all as AFM members. So that was a case in point.
MR. OLIVE: We have a music industry that is valued at over $100 million here in Nova Scotia a year. It is fine to say that we are fourth across the country, but as a ratio of what we should be getting based on the $100 million a year for a small province with the population we have, is there a concern that we are not getting our "share", whatever that is, in support of our music industry through this program?
MR. COWIE: The one thing that always comes up in my mind when we start getting into this area is we are a small province, Nova Scotia, but we have so much talent here it is unbelievable. I think a lot of you people would remember Janice Manders, who was the head of the Halifax Business Commission here. She is now in Norfolk. She e-mailed me a while back and said it is unbelievable, there is no talent down there. She is used to going out here and if you walk into the Lower Deck, you are going to hear an unbelievable three-piece Celtic band. If you walk into Cheers, you are going to hear an unbelievable R&B band. Wherever you go, the symphony, everywhere. It doesn't exist everywhere in the world.
We have an unbelievable resource and that is the talent from the little 10 year old fiddle players that come up every year to the Jamie Sparks and the Ian Janes to the Mike Cowies and the Scott MacMillans. It is unbelievable, everywhere you look, in Guysborough County, everywhere. That needs to be developed. That needs to be cultivated. That needs to grow. I need to be able to put a roof over my head, practice my horn, learn more music, get more gigs. I need to be able to do that without looking for bus fare.
A lot of times you get into situations where, in fact, there is an example where sometimes the budget doesn't go down to the musicians. It's like, well, we need this money to have a cover for our album and the guys in the band say, okay, we will donate. That is a decision that is made and it is their right to do that. Here is another example. The guy who is doing the sleeve for the album or the printer or whatever is living off the backs of the musicians and the musicians are happy to say, we love our music so much, let's get it out there, that this kind of stuff happens.
MR. OLIVE: From your response, I might sort of rephrase it a bit. Am I to understand that the AFM is or should be taking a higher role in acquiring FACTOR funds, or is it not an area that you are involved in?
MR. MACMILLAN: I can pick up on that. FACTOR is something that each individual would want to tap into. As a union, I would be safe in saying that the union wouldn't. If I am a songwriter and I want to do a recording and there is a government funding agency . . .
MR. OLIVE: Then you go direct. You don't utilize the AFM.
MR. COWIE: No, but you would call the union and say, how much should I charge? How much is it going to cost to get these musicians?
MR. MACMILLAN: The union comes in at step two. Step one is to get the money and now, okay, what do I do with it?
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Dartmouth East. Sorry for going out of order there.
DR. JAMES SMITH: That is fine, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I didn't really have a pressing question. I would like to thank our guests. I guess a lot of us in political life who have been around for a while, like you people in the music industry, we have crossed paths a lot of times and can confirm what you say, that you are out there many times at events as, Mike, you had said in your opening and all that sort of thing. We know that you love what you do and it shows and I think people know that. The minute you don't enjoy it, then I think that shows as well. But I think it is important that the organizational structures are there and strong.
The last few years in a professional way we have seen groups that have increased their professionalism, if you will, their roles and responsibilities to themselves and to those they serve. I think of physiotherapists, occupational therapists, denturists and more recently, chiropractors and others that really were very informal, that grew informally over the years. So I think there is a real trend that everyone gets a little better organized.
So, with your group, which is interesting, because you are really quite prominent, at least in the name as the American association, so I see this internationally. I would like your comments on how that has maybe grown historically and if that is because of strength that gives you a broader base entry into a market or whatever. If it is your union, which I understand it is, where does the regulatory body - for instance if you take physicians, you have the Medical Society, which is the union, and then you have the College of Physicians and Surgeons, which is the regulatory body or the discipline, if you will, the licensure and the credibility sort of thing, standards. So that would be just my first question.
Perhaps with a follow-up, which is so much in the media now, is the CD, the downloading and all that, and how you see technology going in that area. I am sure people like yourselves would be interested in that and whether technology is going to be able to keep up.
Scott, you mentioned about part of your royalties - if that is the real word - on your CDS going into your pension fund. Those are things that are very important. I am sure you people, like a lot of other professional groups, and I guess this takes me back to comparing with social workers and others who didn't have really strong legislation to protect their rights and to allow them to be responsible. I think the same thing can be said here.
A lot of musicians would just love to play and I think you have alluded to that and really the heck with the organization, I am not going to belong to your union, I don't need you people. Often some of the strongest opposition that you face is within your own groups. I think that changes when the benefits can be shown to people. I feel very strongly as a politician that we need the union, we need the regulatory bodies and we need that whole organization to really mature and allow people to do what they do best.
I know it is a bit rambling but my first was really your American association, historically, and also where you see technology going. Surely, there is technology out there that can return the rewards back to the individuals, like Scott's pension fund.
MR. ALPHONSE: Mr. Chairman, I am going to ask Mr. Power to speak on the history of the union, since he was there when it was born.
MR. POWER: Do I look that old? Uncle Jim - that's what I am going to call you, because you are the only one I knew here before I got here - let me try to answer the questions; you have mixed up several questions there. First of all, the word American is being bandied around, it is the American Federation of Musicians of the United States and Canada, it is an international union and it is necessary. A lot of people ask us why we don't have a Canadian union and so on. Well, it is an international union. We have our own Canadian head office and our business is all conducted under the heading of local or Canadian autonomy, because our laws are different in Canada than in the United States.
What you have to realize is that we need to be an international union because we are negotiating agreements, international agreements, so we can't do it just from Canada. If you are negotiating an international agreement with the phonograph people - as you know, most of the major phonograph companies are in the United States, so I am only using that as an example - all our agreements, from a national or international perspective, need to be negotiated by an international union. Again, an even playing field.
The producers, they don't want to come to Nova Scotia and find out that the rates are different to do a recording and so on. We have the movies, as you know, coming here to the province right now and they are engaging musicians and do sound tracks. They are familiar with the cost when they are doing their budget because all they take is the international agreement that exists between the AFM, whether it is MGM or whatever movie house it is that is doing this, and they have an agreement or they are signatory to the agreement or they have a letter of adherence, one or the other. That is why it is necessary for it to be an international union so that we do come under that. That is that part.
When you mentioned the medical profession and making comparisons and so on, you have to realize that if it is the medical profession or the legal profession, your licensing people because they are taking - you know, they have got people's lives in their hands. So you have to audition, or we use the word audition in the music business, but you have to examine the credibility of the doctor, if he is qualified, before you will take him in the medical profession. We cannot do that in the Federation of Musicians. We cannot.
People often say to us, they say that band we had last night was terrible and they were one of the federation's bands, why did you let them in? Well, we cannot stop anybody from joining. If they tell us that they play an instrument, we cannot audition them because legally we are not paying for the services. If we don't pay for the services, if we are not the purchaser, we cannot audition them to tell them whether they are good enough or not to belong. Otherwise, you would have a federation of musicians that would have control to keep people out that that auditioning committee thought was competition to them so they wouldn't let them in. So we have to allow anybody who wants to become a member who is a musician or a singer, or whatever, to become a member without seeing if they have any qualifications whatsoever.
It is the buyer beware. The buyer has to. The buyer can call us and we can tell them where they have performed before and we can tell them about the reputation that they enjoy because they have performed here, there and so on and so forth, then we recommend that the buyer, if it is a big convention, we recommend that you go and have a look at them, they are playing down at the such-and-such club next week and you will have an opportunity to see them. Well, that doesn't happen in other professions. So do you see the difference there, doctor, that we live in a little different world? Those are the only two - was there another question?
DR. SMITH: The CD, the downloading, what has been so prominent in the media and what the future might hold there for you . . .
MR. POWER: Are you talking about Napster?
DR. SMITH: Napster.
MR. POWER: Would you do me a favour? I come on at 10:00 a.m. and it is like a deck of cards here, my notes, and I have got to take a few of the cards out of the deck. I would like to say that I will answer that question really good for you.
DR. SMITH: Great, thanks very much.
MR. MACMILLAN: I can pick up on that a little bit. It might be slightly redundant, but because of the union, if I am doing any recording and again the documentation, if I document that recording on an AFM contract, at least that moment in time is documented. Those musicians worked on that day for that recording. If you don't do that, if you just go in and take your $100 and leave, then it is like working for cash or whatever. There is no record of it. So through the union these things are documented. So if the technology is behind, or having a race to see if it is going to work for everybody, that is one thing, but at least through the union, okay, on that date I worked on that and then once the technology is there, okay, now you can get it.
MR. COWIE: As we know, technology is moving so quickly as it is in the music industry with not only Napster, but the way music is made and it is all growing pains. It is all good. We have Napster and everyone is getting ripped off now, but it will come into the fore and I think all of us who use Napster wouldn't mind paying $1.00 for a song if we wanted it that bad and maybe that is where it will go in the future; maybe not, who knows. Maybe musicians will stop making music until something happens. Who knows what is in the future, but the technology is all good, minus the growing pains.
MR. MACMILLAN: And really the other side of it is pretty low-tech. It is just a contract, write it out by hand and there it is.
MR. COWIE: Yes.
MR. ALPHONSE: I might add to that that AFM has international agreements with most of the big recording companies such as Sony and EMI and through these agreements, because these companies are signatories, in addition to them filing the contracts with the AFM for the services of the musicians in whatever capacity that may be, then in turn the recording company is also responsible to pay the pension contributions for the musicians and in addition to that a percentage of every record sold in North America goes into a fund within the - I mentioned the recording industry's Music Performance Trust Funds earlier.
There are two parts to that. One that I mentioned was the live engagements that we spoke about, but the other side of that is for the people who record. This fund goes upwards to $5 million a year and that money is divided among all of the musicians who had recorded in North America the previous year. So in addition to their fees that the record companies will pay them, or they will pay themselves, they will make an extra, you know, it could be upwards to $1,000 U.S. for each recording musician in the federation within all of the locals.
It is a great opportunity in terms of filing paper, unlike what we call dark sessions which are the younger musicians in some cases, and the older musicians in other cases, who will get together and make a record in a studio, they will pay for the cost of the studio. They will pay for the costs of the photograph for the jacket. They will pay for the manufacturing of the product. They will pay for everything but themselves and then they will put this product out and they will have no paper. They will not have made any fees for the service, which is okay by them because they are doing it as a collective or dark session, but then there will be no compensation and no share of the pie from the international funds. So it pays to be a member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I am just aware of the time. We are moving on very quickly and we want to move to Mr. Power at 10:00 a.m.
The honourable member for Richmond.
MR. MICHEL SAMSON: I am just curious, Mr. Alphonse, I guess just for my own understanding, I take it that MIANS represents the industry itself, whereas the AFM actually represents the artists themselves. My understanding is that MIANS does receive some government funding. Does the AFM receive any government funding for your day-to-day operations?
MR. ALPHONSE: No, the AFM has never received any money and never applied for any money. We work our office through our annual budget and our membership. We have our funds that are internal in terms of the international funds that I have mentioned. I mentioned the Music Performance Trust Fund. This gives money to our members to perform but, no, our business is to make sure that our members are compensated for their services, period, and we have never asked for anything from anybody.
MR. SAMSON: Is there any sustainable funding that goes to your members or is it like on a project-to-project basis; you know, different projects, they apply for different funding? Certainly I think it is clear that funding for musicians themselves is always an issue to have sustainable funding to allow them to keep doing what they enjoy to do so much. Is there any sustainable funding out there or does it continue to be project by project, never quite knowing, I guess, whether funding will be approved or not?
MR. ALPHONSE: To the best of my knowledge, you have got your Nova Scotia Arts Council and various others that I am sure both of you could speak on. Within the AFM we have specific funds. If you hurt yourself and you can't play tomorrow, you will receive money immediately from our Lester Petrillo Memorial Fund for Disabled Musicians.
MR. COWIE: You are asking about the government funding?
MR. SAMSON: Yes, exactly, like whether you are going to do a CD or a concert series or Mike wants to go on a series throughout the province. Is there any sustainable funding there that Mike knows for the next three years he is going to be funded for anything he does, or is it project by project and never really knowing whether you are going to get funding?
MR. ALPHONSE: Unless I am not thinking of something - Peter?
MR. POWER: When I present my proposal to you, it will be in your hands. You can help us because you are the ones who make the legislation and if you make the legislation possible, we will look after ourselves and we won't ask you for any money which we never have.
MR. COWIE: We are the root of the tree. When we play, all these people work and what happens a lot is the people who we play for say we don't want to pay you and we will say okay, but the musicians' union can survive without government funding and without any of the stuff you are talking about because every time I play, I give the union $1.20 and once a year I give them $100 to be a member, and because of that we are in business. A lot of times when you are in the music industry, we should look at where the roots are and how strong the roots of the tree are. A lot of great musicians have been lost and they came up so far, wonderfully talented. One guy told me - and you will all know his name and I won't mention it - I cannot afford to be a musician any longer, it is too expensive, and he is not in the business any more. That is true of a lot of people.
MR. ALPHONSE: Why was it too expensive?
MR. COWIE: Because he had to pay out money to everybody and he was not making any to support himself.
MR. ALPHONSE: Paying money to who?
MR. COWIE: His management, his agents, his producers, all the people who live off the musicians, they are taking all the money. A lot of that is business, how you handle your business and how you do your things. That is why the union is here. I remember many times, going into the office and asking Peter, when he was president, what should I do here, what should I do there, this guy said this, and always getting really good advice. Making mistakes and coming up as we all do.
[10:00 a.m.]
In my life, this is the only organization that has looked after my interests as a professional. There are opportunities to work in the industry, but you have to be careful because the industry can be very exploitive. The fact that we don't take any funding, as a
musicians' union we pay our own way, I think it shows where the strength of our business is, and we would like to make it stronger.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. I am just worried about the time. We will move on quickly to the member for Halifax Needham.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I will try to be fairly quick. We have been at this now for a couple of months, having people from the music and cultural industries come in. It has been really interesting. I would say I don't know very much about the industry, but I know what I like. We have so much great music and talent in this province. You said something earlier that I found quite interesting, when you were talking about the decline in venues for performances. I would like to know a little bit more about this, and what you think is missing.
When I think about where you can get access to live performances, for example, I think about the Metro Centre and the Cohn and now the casino is doing stuff, and some of the bars and what have you. When you look at that spectrum, what is missing? How could that space be filled? What would the role of government be, or in partnership with the private sector? Have you thought about that as a union or as individual musicians?
MR. COWIE: I would like to see - there has been talk of a concert facility - a 5,000 seat world-class concert hall, which is desperately needed. We are the major city here; we should be bringing in Cats, Tom Jones, and world-renowned artists that local musicians could supplement, in the band, and our local productions could be put on, which would generate. We don't have that facility. People want to come downtown, get a hotel, go see Cats, have dinner and drive back to Bathurst. They don't want to go to a university auditorium. That is what we have, we are using it, but we need a facility that could be flexible, where you could have 5,000 people come in, or it could be easily down to 1,000 people. That would be like the Sydney Opera House, their whole harbourfront is that Opera House. It is world-renowned.
We desperately need a venue like that. Then Tom Jones could come here, and then go to Summerside, Moncton, Fredericton and back up into Ontario. We don't get those acts coming through. So people don't get to hear this wonderful music, which means that when they go out to hear a live band, they don't have a frame of reference. You go to Toronto and you hear Joe Williams sing at the Hummingbird Centre, and you go out to a jazz club later on that month, you have a frame a reference. Here, we don't. What we get are groups that can come into the Metro Centre or other groups that can come into the facilities that we have, which isn't enough to generate that kind of thing. That is one thing I would recommend you guys should think about.
The other thing is, we talk about when musicians were making a lot of money and there were places to play and everyone had great bands and were working really hard. Well, you start cutting the roots from the tree, people like Bruce - or whoever that Bruce is - say it is not worth it. We lose a lot of good talent because they are not able to grow. There are two areas there to look at, where if the wages had gone up with inflation, for the musicians, maybe we would still have all that employment that was there 20 years ago. In fact, the wages have gone down, and it is actually horrific out there as far as the nightclub scene, as far as what a lot of these places are doing.
MR. ALPHONSE: I would like to answer that with one last comment, Mr. Chairman. That is with regard to the decline. In clubs, I was there when that was born. I mentioned Peter being there when the AFM was born; I was there when the decline began and that was around 1985, and it was due in part because of the age of the music video. It was the music video that began the demise of the live music industry in our province and in Canada, in terms of nightclubs and people going out to hear live music. Prior to that, we all looked forward to hearing the bands in the clubs in Halifax, the great bands that we had. When the age of Michael Jackson and the music video came to be, which was in part to sell records, to help sell records, these videos were so spectacular that we stood in the nightclubs in awe and watched them on big screens, and we didn't have to clap. We watched the video, we turned around and we went back to the bar.
What happened after the fact was the public, in part, began to give that type of attitude or treat the musician the same way they would the video, because the musician certainly wasn't looking or performing like Michael Jackson on the stage. We stopped clapping for the musician. We eventually brought in video lottery machines, we brought in other types of entertainment, and eventually that was the beginning of the demise of the lounge business as we know it for our people, with the exception of a number in the community, and thank God for people like the Grafton Connor Group, Cheers Lounge and these places who employ our people 52 weeks a year, the Palace, the Marquee, the Lower Deck and the Split Crow.
These venues maintain professional musicians all year long, but compared to what it was - the Irish music scene and the Nova Scotia music scene and the Cape Breton traditional music lovers, still love their music, and you won't look at a music video or a lottery machine for those people, they are very appreciative audiences, if you went into the Lower Deck tonight. However, at Cheers, you would see a full house dancing and having a ball, and not much response for the band. That was the beginning of the end, and that happened around 1984.
MR. CHAIRMAN: One quick question, I am just worried, we are cutting into Mr. Power's time.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I would like to hear some comment on school music programs, from your perspective, in terms of whether or not you think music education is in decline, is in ascendance, is contributing to where you want the music industry to go for your members, the future . . .
MR. ALPHONSE: I understand Peter has that covered in his speech.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Chebucto.
MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: No, no. I will be happy to listen to Mr. Power.
MR. CHAIRMAN: All my questions, I think, were covered except for one. I had a question on the nature of the creative arts in the business, and you already discussed it, John, how they are not really the best fit at times. On Cross Country Checkup, you may have heard a very interesting conversation on where this money for the arts will go, federally. There was quite an interesting comment by an artist who said that it all goes to the industry, when it should be going to individual artists. You covered that already. Napster and the Internet, we are going to hear about that later. My one question that wasn't answered that was twigged by something that was said was, how big is the underground economy in the music business in your estimation, in terms of money being given under the table to bands to play? How big is that? Is that a problem?
MR. ALPHONSE: I think that the underground marketplace in the City of Halifax is pretty substantial. There are a lot of musicians who are younger, amateur musicians, who, unfortunately, don't understand - the misunderstandings between the younger musicians and the AFM are such that because they don't understand what we do, and that happens with some of the older people. I believe that there is a fairly large market - well, just look at the lounges, we can name them - that are doing what we will call underground bands.
As far as how valuable it is, it is extremely valuable to the proprietors; it doesn't mean a thing to the musicians. Musicians aren't making any money whatsoever in that area, which we will call dark or underground. Those musicians are playing for peanuts. In some situations, those musicians are playing for beer, and in other parts of Canada, in that particular market, if you like, musicians are paying to play.
Yes, there is a substantial market going on out there, but it is only by individual operations by this particular bar operator or that particular bar operator. He will give you the opportunity to come in and perform your music in his bar, and you are probably pretty good too, and he will do a good business, but no, there is no money being generated at all. It is the worst form of exploitation in the community, in the industry, the underground bar business, the worst form.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Power.
MR. POWER: Mr. Chairman, fellow members of the family of Nova Scotians, I would ask you a favour, that is, if you do have any questions, would you save them until I have finished singing my song. My father - this is just so I can tell you something about knowing the kind of world I lived in and was brought up in all my life - was a musician, he played the cello, classical music of course, in the symphony orchestra pit. My mother played piano, classical music. My brother was a musician, and he led a band the same size and the same style as Glenn Miller. He was even the band that was chosen to play for the Queen, when the Queen came to Halifax. That was at the Lord Nelson Hotel, for the ball she had. My wife is a musician, a violinist, classical. She taught music and graduated from Dalhousie University, in music, with her degree. My daughter is a musician and, of course, I am a musician, and play the trumpet and the flugelhorn.
Going back to those years, seeing the world that I was brought up in, knowing, particularly in those days, that you had to earn a living in order to work. As you know, everybody in this world works to earn a living, but we had to earn a living in order to work, in those days. Since then, my expression is that there has been an explosion in the music industry over the last two or three or four decades. The music sales of CDS are up by thousands and thousands. The increase in the sale of musical instruments is up by thousands. The music stores have multiplied like weeds in the grass, all over North America.
Music is everywhere in this world. So, what is it that I am concerned about? I am concerned about the musician being recognized. Where you can help - where other people ask for financial help, which we are not doing - because you introduce legislation in this province, is on some of the things that I want to talk about. Two of the problems that I see, one of them is the image of the musician, which is terrible; and the status, the musician has no status in Canada. You can make it happen, and I am going to show you how.
First of all, let's deal with the image. I say the image is terrible, the image of the musician. As you know, every word in the dictionary has an image. It doesn't matter what I say, if I say there is a big fire going on, you have an image in your head, boom, right away, a picture is worth a thousands words and you have them all at once. It is the same thing when you talk about a musician. One of the words that creates a bad image of the musician is the word grants. The government uses the word grants all the time. You even have a book that is passed out to you that says, "Grants", and it is about that thick. That word is just another word - in the eyes of the public, the Canadian citizens - for welfare. Think about it. You know it is. That is the image you have of grants. Everybody in this room, including me and everybody sitting here or over there.
When you get the government issuing statements to the press, and I think they are here now, do me a favour, you people in the press, don't use the word grants anymore. What word are you going to use? It has to be replaced with the word investment. You get these articles here, N.S. Arts Council hosts workshop, "The Nova Scotia Arts Council will hold a grant preparations clinic . . ." Oh boy, does that ever go over big with the public, when they
know you have given them all that money to hold this for grants. It should say an investment committee. Nova Scotia Arts Council doles out new grants, that is welfare, and that is what you are calling the musician, welfare.
Remember this one, seeing this in the paper? Mr. Allan Shaw, he is the man appointed, the government appointed him to go ahead and slash away so you could save a lot of money. The first thing he does is he says that he is going end all grants - here it is in the paper - and that is because of the image that it is welfare. Look at this, N.S. Arts Council hands out . . . grants. Hand-outs. That is in the face of the public. Musicians get hand-outs, welfare. I took that paper up to the person who does our printing and I had it reprinted the way it should have been. It should have said, Nova Scotia Arts Council invests $321,000 in Nova Scotia cultural industry. That is the way it should be.
You have to change that word, you have to get rid of that word, and never use that word "grants" anymore. Funding Boost Labelled Cultural Corporate Welfare, this was in the paper a couple of days ago, just to prove my point. Tax critics say the $560 million you were talking about a minute, a boost to the arts, is welfare for cultural industries. That is two days ago in the newspaper. I knew this long before this article came out, but that was nice. When I saw that, I said, oh boy, in two days I am going down to talk to you people, and he provided me with that.
I wrote the Minister of Education and Culture, when it was called Education and Culture, and the Liberal Party at that time was managing the business of the Province of Nova Scotia. He writes back to me:
"Dear Mr. Power:
Thank you for your letters of October 21 and October 27, 1997 concerning the use of the word 'investments' rather than 'grants' when referring to funding provided by the Province of Nova Scotia to artists and arts organizations. I agree that the funds provided by the Department of Education and Culture are an investment in the province. I also recognize that Nova Scotians gain 'returns on the investment', including direct returns from tax revenues and economic generation, and indirect returns from improved quality of life . . . In the meantime, I appreciate your perspective and will continue to encourage my colleagues in government to recognize both the direct and indirect returns from the funds we invest in Nova Scotia's artists and arts organizations.
Yours very truly,
Robert S. Harrison"
He is not there anymore, and you are still using the word grants. Think about it. When you invest money and put it in the bank or elsewhere, you expect it to grow, and it does. Tell me something that has grown any faster in this country than the money that the government has invested in arts and culture.
When you get your grocery list out, and let's say that you lost your job and the only one working is the wife - the husband lost his job - one of the first things you have to do is sit down and re-budget, so you get hold of the grocery list - and of course there are children in the house - on the grocery list there is candy, popcorn, ice cream and so on, they go. They are the first things you chop off, because they are extras, right? You call them extras. What is the image you have of extras? They are not important. Extras are not important, are they?
When the government gets its grocery list out, does its budget, I just read to you what Mr. Shaw did, he calls the musicians the candy and the popcorn, he took the grocery list of government, the government had to save money. The government has a money problem, we all know that, but why is it that it is on the backs of musicians that you want us to help you solve your debt? The first thing you did, and he did, when you took the budget, is arts and culture, they are extras. Come on, admit it, they are. If I was sitting in your shoes as an MLA, I would be guilty of the same thing, because you have to find ways to fix this money problem that you have. I would be the same way, I would think the same thing. They are extras, they have to go first.
But the musicians are not extras. If you call them extras, then you are saying that they are not important. The musician, for example, he doesn't just go to work, then go to rehearsals and so on, and then go home and sit down with his family after supper, watch television and enjoy a social life with his family. He has to go home after rehearsals, in the daytime, and let's say if it is a symphony musician, after he or she has had supper, they have to go and practise for a minimum of three hours just to learn the new music to be ready for the guest conductor when he comes tomorrow. He is not going to put up with you practising on his time. You have to have that all done.
I remember attending a meeting and chairing one of the federation meetings, and it was the tariff of fees. You heard them mentioned before, we do the same thing the lawyers do, they set a minimum scale of fees for this, that and so on. We do the same thing, so that meeting was there. Then we have the leaders and the side musicians in the same thing. The leaders don't care too much, they charge what they want, they make more than the side person anyway. The leader is responsible to pay the side person the fee, what the book says is the minimum fee.
They were in there talking and this trombone player stood up in the back row - I was there and the chairman - and he said, Mr. Chairman - they were arguing about what it should be and so on, and I told you about the practising, how the musician has to go home and practise at night - he cited about a plumber, he said, you know the plumber goes to work at
8:00 o'clock in the morning and he gets home at 4:00 o'clock, he has supper and he sits down and enjoys life with his family. He doesn't go in and take his toilet apart and start practising to put it back together. That was a good illustration. That is true with everybody else. It is just that I remember that one.
Our president, John Alphonse, spoke about musicians, how it is nice to donate money for benefit concerts and so on, and donate their time. It is fine for you and me to donate our time because we are not doing it during our earning power time. We have a job and we have a guaranteed salary coming, everybody has a paycheque every week, but the musicians haven't. Musicians volunteering their time to do benefits, as our president told you, he said the dishwashers get paid when the benefit is on and the waiters get paid when the benefit is on and the bar makes money, but they ask the musicians to donate their time. It is the musicians who are drawing the crowd to raise the money for the benefit. Benefits and musicians donating their time, that is just not part of their survival kit, if you could keep that in mind.
Now we get to Napster. In responding to Napster, I put some of my thoughts on paper. I will just read them. Most people can agree that it is unfair, if not criminal, for pharmaceutical companies, abetted by the government, to restrict the flow of life-saving preparations to populations that need them and cannot pay the exorbitant prices allowed under the present system we have. Pharmaceuticals and other goods are covered by patent, not copyright. There is a world of difference between the two, belying current efforts to lump the two types of legal protections under one term, intellectual property, as in recent international trade agreements, which you have heard a lot about. The government gives a monopoly to the pharmaceutical people for 20 years, and doesn't allow that company to have any competition. You don't allow any competition to come into the province against those people.
But for musicians, you think you should be able to have the music free, off Napster. Those musicians, when they composed that - in fact, the pharmaceuticals, when you buy those pills, they sure as hell don't cost that much money to manufacture, you are paying the person who is sitting home getting re-use payments for what he discovered - or the composer, you want to get it all free, and Napster is dishing it out. It is just like coming into your house and giving all your furniture away.
Medicine - Uncle Jim, you will like this - I am talking about medicine because the pharmaceutical people want to take all the credit. Music is in Mother Nature's pharmacy. This is an article. I am a Rotarian; as some of you know, the Rotary Club is probably the largest international organization of its kind in the world, and it helps solve a lot of the problems in the world. In here, there is a little article that says, There's Something in the Music, "When Kathy Winter was diagnosed with breast cancer two years ago, she looked for ways to ease the emotional and physical pain." It goes on and on.
"She discovered the power of music. At the suggestion of her doctor, Winter met with a music therapist at the University Hospitals Ireland Cancer Centre in Cleveland, where she was being treated. The therapist brought an electronic keyboard to Winter's chemotherapy sessions, playing classical music to help divert Winter from the harsh and gruelling treatments. 'I don't know how I would have gone through that without music therapy,' she recalls. 'There was much less discomfort. It was like being in a long, dark tunnel, and the music helped bring some light to it.'" The whole article goes on and on. There are many articles written about the value of music assisting people who are sick.
Let me go to statistics. Producers and directors in Canada, 15,900; conductors, 2,090; dancers, 5,730; audio and video recording technicians, 7,495; announcers and other broadcasters, 8,450. I have two pages here, I won't go any further because I have made my point. Those people wouldn't even have a job if it wasn't for our people, the musicians. The musicians are the only ones who can make music, and if there is no music being made these people aren't in business.
These people - and I am not picking on these people, I am just trying to direct your attention to where the importance lies. It is like the oranges, the guys who are making more money are the orange squeezers, not the people who are growing the oranges - I mention these because these people are contributing to your economy. They are getting paid well. You heard mentioned before, money people are asking for, MIANS, you make a substantial contribution to MIANS and so on and so forth. These people are doing fine. None of that money goes to the musicians.
Listen to this, a study in New York, entitled You Gotta Have Art, found that $197 million was spent on the arts in 1995, $197 million, the government spent, by federal, state, county and city agencies, while the arts generated, in the same place, $761 million in taxes. These are facts. New York City's spending on the arts that year - that is just the city, now - was $91 million, while the city tax revenues from the arts were $221 million. Need I say any more?
"While Nova Scotia slashes away at its cultural budgets, many other provinces are increasing theirs . . . QUEBEC, On 22 March . . .", this year, " . . . in his inaugural speech to the National Assembly, the new premier of Quebec affirmed that culture is one of his government's top ten priorities . . . One week later, on 29 March (the same day that Nova Scotia cut culture for the second year in a row), Quebec ADDED $114 million to its cultural budgets. That's above and beyond the $430 million that the province had already committed." Then it goes on to talk about British Columbia, they did something similar, in raising that. I am speeding along, because I think I am making my point without repeating two or three of them.
Culture is Canada's top export, that is Time Magazine. "Canadian cultural exports are exploding in the global marketplace as never before, Time magazine says in a special report." That is just the newspaper clipping announcing that money that Mr. Chretien and his government all of sudden found out, or they got a copy of my speech, I guess that is what happened, and he moved on it before I got down here to tell you. Catching fish or cutting trees down won't sustain the economy in Nova Scotia. Mark that down.
Now, the status. Musicians have no status in Canada, none at all. When a musician goes to work in a club, the dishwasher and the waiter and everybody else, they are all covered, they get Canada Pension, they get EI, they are all looked after and they get a wage, and if they are sick on Monday, that doesn't affect their pay, they still get their paycheque at the end of the week. The musician goes in there, there is no EI, there is no Canada Pension, and if he is sick on Monday, that's too bad, he doesn't get paid, because they have to find a replacement.
Mr. Chairman, I know my time is up, and I suspected my time would be up because I knew somebody here would take up some of my time - as you said, they were taking up my time - so I anticipated that. What I did is I prepared questions for you that I know you want to ask me about the status of the artists. I wrote them down, and I wrote the answers down, and I made a copy for each one of you so you will have them when you leave here and you will know the answers to all the questions that you are going to ask. I want to say to you that some of my friends address my mail to me as "President at Rest".
[10:30 a.m.]
As you can see, I am not resting, and I will never rest until we get the Status of the Artist legislation. We have it in Canada, it is federal legislation, and we can use that and deal with that at a federal level, that is why we have an agreement with the CBC, we can do it and so on. Here in Nova Scotia, we have agreements but they are voluntary agreements. Both parties can tell you to get lost, we don't want to do business with you. When you have the Status of the Artist then there is a tribunal, and when you see this the first thing that is coming to mind is what is this going to cost us? It will only cost the cost of operating a tribunal.
I even made arrangements, so you don't even have to pay that. I called Ottawa, and Ottawa said that they will use their tribunal, until you find that you have enough money to run your own tribunal they will let you use their tribunal which has twice as much experience as the new people you would have to go and get to form one, and they will do it free of charge for you. Please make note of that, because the Minister of Finance, the first thing he is going to say is, you are going to put some new legislation in, what is it going to cost? Nothing. If you want the person's name, it is Loraine Farkus, Director of Planning, Research and Mediation.
Uncle Jim, can I give you those, then you can take them apart; just pass them down, one for everybody else. There are the answers. Once the Status of the Artist is there, then we will have agreements and then the musicians will be able to enjoy all the other benefits that other citizens in Canada have, such as EI, Canada Pension and so on, which they don't have now.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Power. As an author, I can sort of resonate with what you say because my book sells, when it sells, for $20 at Chapters, and I get $1.80. So I understand a bit of what is going on. I am a little puzzled why you call him Uncle Jimmy, it should be Lord Jim, from Joseph Conrad, shouldn't he? My final little quip before we start going around. When you talk about status, perhaps we can help, but when you talk about image, I think politicians are, perhaps, the last group to help with image problems. We have our own work to do.
We will go around counter-clockwise this time, just to be fair. The member for Halifax Chebucto, we don't have much time so I would encourage you to move along.
MR. EPSTEIN: One of the things that is of concern to us is what the role of the government ought to be in relationship to your industry or any other sector that we have a look at. I have heard a variety of suggestions about things that we might do, including this latest one about the Status of the Artist, which I will have to think about. One that I do want to hear a little bit more about, though, is the suggestion for performance base. I think it was Mike Cowie who made that observation, that some kind of significant sized performance base is appropriate for metro. What I wonder is whether you see this as something that will be developed by the private sector, or whether you are suggesting to us that we should think about this as some kind of publicly-built and organized and run facility. That is not clear to me, so could I hear some comments on that.
MR. POWER: Well, if I may answer that, for the last four, five, six, seven years, there has been a movement, which I am sure some of you are aware of. Michael LaLeune, Past-Executive Director of Symphony Nova Scotia, is very involved in trying to find the financing to put a professional theatre on. I don't know if some of you have been to other cities. I think of Calgary, the latest one they built out there, and what it did. Of course, I think that is the policy with the government, you check with other provinces. If you checked with the other provinces - Calgary - you will find that once they invested and put up that new facility, you will find the benefits they have received - in Halifax, there are all kinds of international people who won't come here because we don't have the facilities. It is one extreme or the other, you go into a 1,000-seat hall at the Rebecca Cohn or you go into a 10,000-seat hockey rink . . .
MR. EPSTEIN: Excuse me, I am not asking you to argue the case. I am asking whether you conceive of it as something the private sector is going to build or whether you conceive of it that the public sector is going to build.
MR. POWER: I think it has to be partners. I would think that the government would come up with a formula and would say we will contribute to your fundraising. For every $1.00 you raise we will invest 50 cents, that type of thing. I think that is the way the government would have to go. I don't think the government would have to put it up or would want to put it up, or we would want you to put it up all by yourself. Then it wouldn't be arm's length, would it?
MR. EPSTEIN: And the idea is that it should be in the downtown?
MR. POWER: Yes.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Could we go back to my question about music education . . .
MR. POWER: Yes, music education is so important to us because that is the seed that has to be planted in order to grow our musicians. There are all kinds of things to be said that already have been said about music, how valuable it is even if the person never becomes a musician. It is very valuable, as far as I am concerned, and I will give you an example. I was on the advisory committee to four Ministers of Culture, starting with Rollie Thornhill. It is that committee that finally - it took us two years - persuaded the government to have the Arts Council that you have now.
I remember - and it is still there in the records - recommending that music should be a subject that if the student didn't pass it they had to take the grade all over again, even if they got 100 in history, English and everything else. It was that important to me; of course I am prejudiced. The fact is I still think that it is that important in their education. Of course, I have my own reasons too, selfish reasons for wanting that, because that means that if all of you people, when you went to school, had to pass the exam in music, you would all know what I was talking about. I wouldn't have to be here, because you would probably be getting this stuff done all by yourself when you got there, because you would know the importance of music.
Let me go back to when the symphony first started. Julius Silverman was the first concert master. He had to go to New York to learn to play the violin. Do you know now that students come from New York to Halifax to learn to play the violin? Did you know that? That is true. The Scotia Festival has hundreds and hundreds of students who come from the United States, New York, and everywhere else to learn to play their instruments.
When you have the symphony here it is not just a band that is playing; those musicians are world-class musicians. Most of them have two and three degrees in music, and they have played internationally. Where are you, as a mother and father, going to find the teacher living in your backyard with that kind of knowledge to teach your child music?
It is very important that you have music as part of the education of a child. Scott should be speaking about this, because as Scott can tell you that you will be a hell of a lot better mathematician if you learn music than you would just be learning mathematics. Go ahead, Scott. Scott learned mathematics first, before he became a musician.
MR. COWIE: I have been everywhere on my We Believe in Music program in the schools. I have been in Guysborough, Port Hawkesbury, Sydney and the Valley, I have been everywhere. You will see music teachers in there at 8:00 o'clock in the morning, rehearsing their bands. This is everywhere, without exception. You will see music teachers working over their lunch hour and staying until 4:00 o'clock, 5:00 o'clock, after school. The programs have been cut and these people are so dedicated and so professional that they refuse to sacrifice the quality of their program.
A band from Glace Bay, a poor mining town, no money up there, goes and plays in Carnegie Hall - what, three years ago? - they were invited to play in Carnegie Hall because of a music teacher who had turned that whole community on to music. When those kids graduate and go out, they won't accept just anything, they are educated people. It has been proven that the smart kids aren't in band, being in band makes you smart because it teaches you discipline, it teaches you focus, and it teaches you to work with others. The benefits are unreal. Yet, everywhere I go in the province it has been cut, it has been slashed.
The math teacher leaves at 3:00 p.m. and is home at 3:10 p.m. Then the music teacher is asked to do the musical, and all that extra time and effort into putting on the musical or the variety show or what have you. When I came up, we all came up in the Halifax Music Program, with Chalmers Doane and Hrvoje Hrestak and all of that in the 1970's. You couldn't walk through Halifax without seeing a kid with a ukelele. We all know that.
Bands were going to Australia, Hawaii and Toronto. As a high school student, I played for 10 days at the CNE, I toured Alberta with my band. We were not allowed to compete in Toronto. They said, you have won too many years, you can come up and play for us but you can't compete, from Halifax. Yet, we are slashing the budget, we are slashing all the money. It is only a matter of time before it all blows up in our faces, where it reaches that point where people are going, wait a minute, what is going on? We are approaching that critical point. I have seen it out there; I have been out there; I have talked to everywhere, I can give you names and places.
We have to stop it. We have to turn it around and realize that culture, music and art is a resource. These kids are going out, playing concerts in the community, which is raising money, which is employing printers and everyone else we have talked about, unlike a little kid level. We should be supporting that, not cutting it back. I am saying to these people, we all go out to our school concert and we sit there, and we say, isn't it wonderful, look at our kids playing. Yet, we are hard-pressed to take a loonie out of our pocket and donate it to the band program. Then they come around with pies and cakes and all this other stuff. They
should be supported. There are schools in the United States, million dollar budgets in a high school for the band program, and their bands aren't as good as our bands.
MR. MACMILLAN: I will pick up a little bit on Mike's passion, because I have the same thing. I have two sons, I am fortunate enough to have benefited from very talented music teachers, very dedicated. Really, the musicians, the music industry is drive by what audiences want. We can't decide what is going to sell the most in the next CD. You just have to be as creative as you can and hope it is going to sell. Being creative means you have to have the talents, you have to have the skills in order to do that. The young people coming up, if they receive these skills . . .
I know for myself, I didn't go through the music department at all. I was in the garage, playing rock and roll with friends. That was my training, because there wasn't any music teacher at all. I was passionate, I loved it and I just kept on coming back. Looking back, if I had had that opportunity, I was just a little bit older than Mike and I didn't . . .
MR. COWIE: Quite a bit older.
MR. MACMILLAN: I didn't quite connect with that whole thing. Looking back, if I had been in that situation, I would have learned that much quicker, I know I would have. Having that opportunity to invest in the talents, just the raw talents of these people, before we get into the agents, before we get into all of the promotion, what is going to sell and all of that go-ahead, the first is just the talent of the musicians. Investing in music education, first of all, makes that grow, and then there are all of the other benefits we are talking about.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I am just worried about time. We will go to the follicly-disadvantaged member for Dartmouth East.
DR. SMITH: I think I have had more than enough opportunity here. I have enjoyed it a lot. If I don't get a chance to say thank you, that will be my closing comment. I think it has been well covered. In particular, thanks for giving us, Peter, something to take back home with us. My thing would be, what are our responsibilities to you people, what are you asking for, I think you have covered that fairly well. Maybe you will want to address it in your closing comments, what you need from us.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Guysborough.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: Mr. Chairman, I don't have questions. Just thank you again for being here today. Talking about music education was really educational for me, as well as all the other presentations from the music industry that we have had here. Thank you, again.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Sackville-Beaver Bank.
MR. BARNET: Just two things. I was going to ask Mike to tell us what he really thought about the school music program, but I am afraid to do that. I just want to go back to one thing, Mr. Alphonse, you mentioned the decline in venues and opportunities for people to play live. I mentioned this at a previous Human Resources Committee meeting, I have no intention of going back and reliving my youth, but I too noticed that, particularly, the things that I miss are the live outdoor concerts like the Atlantic Folk Festival and these types of things. To me, it seems that there ought to be or is a market for these types of events, but yet there is nobody who has taken the initiative to organize them and develop them, particularly in the metro area. I know in Guysborough there is a good event. We all know the sad history of the Fish Festival, or whatever it was called, in Yarmouth.
MR. ALPHONSE: Fish Aid.
MR. BARNET: Fish Aid. To me, without any musical background, or a very limited musical background, I would think that there would be some sort of market for live, outdoor, weekend-type concerts, annual events in and around the metro area, with the 380,000 people who live in the area and the people who come to visit. Do you know why those types of events have declined, particularly in our area?
MR. ALPHONSE: Well, in part because the people who were the promoters, the people who promote those types of events, who take risks and perhaps make profits or don't make profits, decided not to get involved. They decided not to do these programs. The Concert on the Hill was a good example. For 25 years we watched all of our best Nova Scotia bands, on Natal Day, play on the hill, free to the public. In the last 10 years we watched outside promoters come in, put a fence around the hill, bring an artist of stature to Halifax and charge $35, and put 25,000 people on that hill.
It is all a matter of economics and business. Whether or not the government might want to say we are going to allocate a certain amount of money to go directly into the pockets of the musicians, and we are going to hire, through the musicians, people to promote and to produce concerts, such as the AFM did during the International Year of Music.
A good example of what you are speaking about, it is very possible, really possible to go ahead with this, and that is with the $25,000 that the Nova Scotia Government, in 1998, gave the AFM to produce concerts in the province, we doubled that money and we made it $50,000 to $70,000. What we did with that money was, over two months, we put concerts on for our people, not for the exporting market or exporting our talent or creating new markets from outside to come in, but for the taxpayers of Nova Scotia, the senior citizens, the teenagers, the citizens of Nova Scotia. Throughout every county in this province, over two months, what we did was put on exactly what you are speaking about.
Now, the unfortunate part is that a lot of people who were fortunate like us, who were invested in by your government or that government at that time, the Liberal Government, would have taken that same amount of money, in 48 hours, in London, England, put on a concert and it was gone, it was over. I don't what benefit came from any of those projects, but there was a heck of a lot of them.
Again, no disrespect to the music industry, but the government has to start considering putting money into the industry right here, the people here who are the industry. In reality, and I speak on behalf of Mike and Scott, who have been more active as musicians than Peter or myself in the last couple of years, but we are people who know the music business, the 1,100 people who play music are the people who know the music business. We are the people who play until 3:30 in the morning at Cheers and load our trucks until 5:00 in the morning, down the stairs, and then don't really know if we have any employment the following Monday. We are the music industry.
When I read about all of these investments that are going on for international markets and the Christmas tree, well, that is fine, and we are going to go with so and so to London, England, and we are going to do a promotion there with a big concert, or we are going to take our filmmakers and spend some of the money to hire musicians in Czechoslovakia, because it is a lot cheaper than hiring them here under the AFM rates, that gets my back up. That is Nova Scotia taxpayers' money. How would our Premier feel about that, if he knew that they were taking the money from the allocated in this province for, let's say, any particular organization - I don't want to mention names right now - and we are going to consider going overseas because it is cheaper. That doesn't sound right.
There are a lot of reasons for my office to get its back up about the exploitation that does take place. In fact, I can tell you right now that in the last 48 hours, I have received an e-mail from a government agency that told me that they plan on getting involved in the music business for a two-day event. They are flying in music promoters, booking agents, industry professionals from New York, Los Angeles, and Toronto, and they are going to bring them here for two days in June to help expand our music industry and our people into the other markets throughout Canada and the United States.
They have told me that in no uncertain terms will they be paying any of the musicians the showcase rates. We are not paying a cent for the musicians, we don't have any money for that. We will be paying x amount of dollars to bring these delegates, these producers and these promoters to come to Halifax for a showcasing situation. Showcasing isn't something that we have spent any time speaking about today, ladies and gentlemen. Showcasing, in my opinion, is just a way to exploit musicians for free.
The East Coast Music Awards and the East Coast Music Association, they don't exploit. What they did was they accepted an agreement that we took to them, it was a livable agreement that included fees for the musicians. Three months ago, in Charlottetown, that
budget from the ECMA was allocated to $150,000 for the services of my people, for four days. I am not talking about AFM here, I am talking about the musicians, members and non-members. We negotiated an agreement for all of them. Under the Status of the Artist in Canada we represent all the musicians, members and non-members. This agreement that we negotiated was very successful.
When I have a Nova Scotia Government agency telling me, we have no plan to pay any of the musicians, then you can imagine how I feel about that. What they are doing is exploiting my people. We are not going to step backwards, we are going to step forward and we will take the actions that we are able to take, as a union, in order to stop them. We will stop our people, our people will not be allowed to perform. We will certainly make a noise about it if we have to. We are here to represent the musicians, not a $3,000 delegate who cost air fare from L.A.
I will tell you something else - I can speak on this honestly because I am a musician - showcasing, I will give it to you first hand, coming from me, . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Can I ask you, Mr. Alphonse, just to be fairly quick about it because we have two more people who . . .
MR. ALPHONSE: My last comment. Showcasing is sitting down, turning out the lights in the auditorium, stop talking with people you are sitting with, looking at the stage, and listening. That is what showcasing is. In Nova Scotia, showcasing is going into a venue, a bar, a club and schmoozing with booze and talk and socializing. The music is background music in those situations, it is not showcasing. We call it showcasing, but for your education it is not showcasing, it is background music. That is the reality of it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Sorry to have to hurry you.
MR. ALPHONSE: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, for taking so long.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The last question is from the honourable member for Dartmouth South.
MR. OLIVE: Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of observations and a couple of questions and, perhaps, some information that the presenters could pass back to us at a later date since we are running out of time. First of all, I think it is somewhat unfair to characterize what is going on with the Tourism and Culture Department in Nova Scotia as slash and burn. I guess I would just like to have on the record that, in fact, back a few years ago, culture was buried in the Department of Education and didn't have the public image and the government support that, perhaps, it should have. In July 1999, our government did take it out of the Department of Education and put it back and gave it a higher profile under the Department of Tourism and Culture.
That is not to say that there hasn't been changes in the funding structures and where the money is going. There is no reason why the cultural sector shouldn't share in some of the pain and the agony of the financial situation of this province just like everybody else. Notwithstanding that, I would like to make sure that it is on the record, like the $1.2 million to the Nova Scotia Arts Council; the $250,000 to the Nova Scotia Cultural Industry Support, which is a new program, I might add; the Community Rural Cultural Development Program is another $150,000 a year; the Cultural Export Development Program, which was introduced by our government last year, is $250,000; and the Assistance to Performing Arts Centres Management is $251,000. That is only some of them.
There are significant dollars being spent by this government in the cultural community. It is somewhat unfair to paint a picture that it is all slash and burn. There are changes in where it is going. I like to think that, and I am sure my caucus members share with me, it is more targeted, more specific, that more money is, in fact, going to make its way to the musicians. I just want to make that point. I also think it is somewhat unfair to compare us with Quebec, but that is neither here nor there.
I must say I was quite impressed, Mr. Power, with the comment on the image and status of musicians. I think that is very important. I am new to this environment, and that hit a very positive note with me. I just look at some of the notes I have here, and I look at the number of times the word "grant" is used and the number of times "investment" is used. You are absolutely right. I do understand the negative connotation of "grant" because when you think "grant" you think welfare, you think of people too lazy to work, and it is all there, just with that one little word, "grant". I think we do have to change the public perception of musicians and stop using the word, "grant". I agree with you, and I appreciate that comment.
Two other issues, if I may, the intellectual property rights, you didn't mention that. A number of briefings we have had in this whole area, over the last few months, have talked about the intellectual property rights. I don't know, and I won't ask you to get into that now, but I would like to know what the AFM's position is on intellectual property rights. Obviously, there is a huge funding source there, that in the States it is protected and in Canada it is not, and whether the AFM Canadian organization is making representation to the federal government to try to have that changed, because it is a huge issue. I won't ask you to get into it now, but I would like to know what the AFM's position is on that.
Regarding the paper that you handed out, on the Status of the Artist, again, I would commend you on this document. It makes mention of why existing provincial labour codes aren't adequate, and it states that musicians are primarily independent contractors. I take it that you don't feel that the legislation in place now covers independent contractors. For example, if I want to hire a painting contractor for my home, it is a one-off. If I want to hire a band for a wedding reception, it is one-off. There are labour laws to cover the painting contractor. Do you believe the laws that are in place today do not cover - obviously, you do.
MR. POWER: Yes, it is fine that the Department of Labour and Environment has a new name, Revenue and Customs or something, that we have difficulty there. Every province you go in, whoever is representing the Department of Revenue, and so on, has a different interpretation. We are always going through appeals. It seems we are keeping people in business there for appealing. I am involved in a big one right now, I was assigned by the federation to handle one. We have a big challenge by the orchestra in Prince Edward Island, Anne of Green Gables - that is a pit orchestra - and they are all our members.
I used that same example, a painting contractor, in my argument that you used. As I said, when the painting contractor comes in, you hire the painting contractor, he hires all his painters, he is painting your house, and you can't tell that painter what to do. You can tell the painting contractor, but you can't tell his painter, and if that painter doesn't want to come to work tomorrow, you can't say anything about it. You can go to the painting contractor, he will get a replacement. That makes them independent and self-employed.
To get into the argument with them in the Department of Revenue, it is out of this world. My head is just spinning, trying to get a message across to them. I am dealing with people, the bureaucrats there who don't know the difference between a trumpet and violin. When I am talking music to them, they have their minds closed to this, it's for a service or of a service. Then they will keep me on that debate, they keep asking questions, can the employer do this? I say, no. The musician, does he - I said, no, the musician doesn't have to show up for work that day, he can tell the contractor, the leader, that he is going to send a substitute because he has a more attractive job, he is going to play in Carnegie Hall next week. That makes him self-employed.
MR. OLIVE: I have just one other point, Mr. Chairman. You say that once the recognition is granted, that is the legislation, all those who engage professional artists in that sector are obligated to negotiate with a certified bargaining agent - that being someone like the AFM - in good faith, to reach an agreement to govern the conditions of engagement for that group of artists. My question is, how will that affect the underground economy that we talked about earlier?
[11:00 a.m.]
MR. POWER: It will eliminate it.
MR. OLIVE: That is a fair statement for you to make, I suppose, but the fact is that there is legislation out there now and it doesn't eliminate the underground economy of electricians, carpenters and bricklayers.
MR. POWER: I know, it is my opinion that it would eliminate it because in the Status of the Artist - they must have it here in the government, you must have copies of federal legislation; get a copy of that. The reason that I say it would eliminate that problem - I am
rushing for time here, I will have to ad lib - is it clearly states that in negotiating the agreement - because in Canada you cannot force somebody to join the union, they are free, they can work there - the employer has to deduct the membership dues and the work dues whether they are members or not. So, if they are doing that, those people, they would join, wouldn't they? Wouldn't you join if you are paying membership dues anyway? The odd one wouldn't but that is why I say that would eliminate the underground.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We have run out of time. I promised one quick question; is it very brief?
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: It is not a question, it is a comment that I feel I must make. I accept your argument about investment. I don't think there is any question that money is an investment. I think that perception is very important. I really want to raise a point about some objection I have to a comment made by the member for Dartmouth South, who said when you think grant, you think welfare, you think people too lazy to work. I take great exception to that comment; when I think welfare, I think disability, I think illness, I think young children, I think mothers with children, and I don't think people too lazy to work. I think we need to be very careful about the perceptions . . .
MR. OLIVE: You want to get into a philosophical argument . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for your comment. I want to thank all of you for showing. I was going to burst out into, I believe in music, I believe in love, because that is what you made me think. But I will spare everybody.
MR. COWIE: This is the first time anyone has asked a musician to come in and hear us, and I thank you for that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You are very welcome, thank you for coming.
MR. ALPHONSE: Thank you for having us, Mr. Chairman.
MR. POWER: Who is going to introduce the legislation, the Status of the Artist in the Province of Nova Scotia, like Quebec has? Mr. Olive?
MR. OLIVE: Can you get us a copy of that Ontario report? It would be nice to have that, since you mentioned that some of your comments on the legislation were based on an Ontario report. (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: We have it already. I will pass this on.
We are adjourned.
[The committee adjourned at 11:03 a.m.]
