HANSARD

NOVA SCOTIA HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE

ON

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

Tuesday, September 13, 2005

LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEES OFFICE

Tourism

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE

Mr. Michel Samson (Chairman)

Mr. Brooke Taylor

Mr. William Dooks

Mr. Mark Parent

Mr. Howard Epstein

Mr. Charles Parker

Ms. Marilyn More

Mr. Wayne Gaudet

Mr. Harold Theriault

[Mr. Michel Samson was replaced by Mr. Stephen McNeil.]

[Ms. Marilyn Moore was replaced by Ms. Joan Massey.]

IN ATTENDANCE:

Mrs. Darlene Henry

Legislative Committee Clerk

Ms. Marsha Andrews

Executive Director

Ms. Carol Thorn

Managing Director

WITNESSES

Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage

Ms. Kelliann Dean

Deputy Minister

Tourism Partnership Council

Mr. Charles Clerk

Chairman,

Tourism Industry Association of Nova Scotia

Mr. Nicholas Carson

Chairman of the Board

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 13, 2005

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

9:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Michel Samson

MR. BROOKE TAYLOR (Chairman): Good morning, everybody. I'd like to bring this Committee on Economic Development to order and perhaps I could begin by asking my colleagues around the table to identify themselves and we will start with you, Mr. Epstein.

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, members. Our guests this morning are with the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage and the Tourism Industry Association of Nova Scotia. I will defer to one of our guests to identify their colleagues.

MR. CHARLES CLERK: My name is Charles Clerk. I am the Chairman of the Tourism Partnership Council.

MR. NICHOLAS CARSON: I'm Nicholas Carson, Chairman of the Tourism Industry Association of Nova Scotia.

MS. KELLIANN DEAN: I'm Kelliann Dean, Deputy Minister of Tourism, Culture and Heritage.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. I guess the process is such that first I should tell you that our regular Chairman, Michel Samson, is unable to attend today and I'm going to try to fill in for Michel here. I would ask that somebody provide the committee with a presentation and then we will have, I'm sure, a Q&A session afterwards.

MR. CARSON: Who would you like to start? Industry or government?

MR. CHAIRMAN: How about industry?

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[Page 2]

MR. CARSON: Okay. Well, let's start with industry then.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good morning everyone. As I said, my name is Nicholas Carson and I'm Chairman of the Tourism Industry Association. Our tourism industry continues to be one of the most significant contributors to the Nova Scotia economy. It provides revenue, creates employment and generates community development and leads to a sense of pride of place among those of us who live here. Tourism is big business in Nova Scotia, generating over $1 billion in revenue, but it's big business made up of small businesses. In fact, only 8 per cent of our tourism businesses have more than 50 employees. Nonetheless, that tourism revenue supports tens of thousands of jobs in both rural and urban areas of this province.

Many decisions made by government impact the tourism industry and the thousands of Nova Scotians who depend on this sector for a livelihood. Government must keep tourism in mind when making decisions that impact such a broad and important part of our economy. In fact, we in the industry have a goal and that is to make tourism first. Tourism is everyone's business. It touches everyone indirectly and in many areas of this province, tourism is the number one business. Tourism development projects can impact entire communities through increasing employment, generating new economic opportunities and improving facilities and amenities for the enjoyment of all.

Investment in tourism creates a payback to the economy and to the government many times over and unlike some other industries, tourism is a renewable resource. It cannot be compared to other natural resources which are often being depleted by development. The more the investment is made, the greater the return, a return that continues for many years and it's an investment that generates strong tax revenues for government, revenues that can be used to fund important needs for Nova Scotians like education and health.

Tourism is an ecologically sound industry and being environmentally friendly, it helps make Nova Scotia a place where people want to live. The tourism industry is, for the most part, one which protects and preserves our natural and built heritage and celebrates the multicultural fabric that exists throughout this province. This strong environmental ethic is at the heart of the tourism industry's future success and we have serious concerns with the impact of other industries that are not able or interested in keeping pace with public sentiment on this issue. Tourism is very conscious and highly supportive of government's move to support a green environment, and our research clearly shows that consumers will develop an emotional attachment to a region that protects and preserves its environment and celebrates its heritage.

Accessibility is one of the most critical factors influencing the success of any area, positioning itself as a tourism destination. This is still one of Nova Scotia's challenges, to make sure that people can get here easily and economically. This year we have seen the demise of the Scotia Prince and a dramatic increase in the price of gas. Both are factors that

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are contributing to an already difficult tourism year in Nova Scotia. While we may be blessed with a number of ways to get to this beautiful province of ours and to travel around it, we must be conscious of the limitations imposed by each method of transportation. Apart from the main highways, our roads in general are not conducive to touring by car or motorcoach. The Cabot Trail, probably our single biggest tourism icon after Peggys Cove, is in a deplorable state, and when did you last drive to Peggys Cove on the old Highway No. 3?

It was good news for everyone when the Nova Scotia Government announced in its latest budget an extra $30 million to improve our roads but at today's construction costs, this will barely be enough to construct 30 new kilometres. It's the hope of TIANS that extra funding will be made available over the next few years to ensure a stepped-up effort to maintain our roads. It's interesting to note how quickly the heated debate over toll roads died down following the initial outcry over the Wentworth Valley bypass. While TIANS is not necessarily condoning more tolls, it is certainly important that the government look to new ways of providing consistent funding for these vital links.

The number of visitors coming by air to Nova Scotia continues to increase. As demographics change and disposable incomes increase in more distant countries, Nova Scotia will continue to see an increasing number of travellers entering through the airport. The Halifax International Airport Authority is an important tourism partner, working with government and industry to attract more domestic and international flights to Halifax. It's vital that the Nova Scotia Government recognize its role in representing everyone's interest at the federal level. Until this country adopts a more realistic approach to open skies and fifth freedom rights, it will always be difficult to attract or maintain new airline services. We surely have enough examples of airlines that have been "disincentivised" from operating in this environment.

It was with great pleasure that TIANS recognized the achievements of the Halifax International Airport Authority team in securing, after many years of trying, U.S. pre-clearance facilities which are due to commence service at the airport at the end of 2006. This will not only open up new U.S. destinations directly to Nova Scotia, but we believe may assist in softening some of the very negative consequences to the U.S. passport requirements which are coming into effect at the end of next year.

We have a number of ferry services that bring visitors to Nova Scotia and the sudden loss of the Scotia Prince between Portland and Yarmouth was not a good start to the season. However, this was a business decision over which no one in Nova Scotia had any control or influence. Last year, the Scotia Prince transported 40,000 visitors to Nova Scotia and now these American tourists have one less way to get here.

High gas prices, especially the most recent dramatic increases, are of concern to the tourism industry. We believe people will continue to travel, but they will probably not stay as long and not spend as much when they're here. Higher gas prices and higher fuel costs

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will also mean higher costs for most of our tourism operators. These costs are undoubtedly going to be passed along to the visitor, who already pays top dollar for their Nova Scotia vacation. Tourism is a barometer of the economy. It's dependent upon disposable income. If the cost of living keeps going up, it eats into that disposable income and, in turn, will impact on tourism revenues.

Tourism is a very competitive industry that is global in scope. Nova Scotia competes with the rest of the world. Today consumers are faced with a variety of vacation destinations that would have been unthought of only a few years ago, places like Vietnam, China, India and Australia are all readily available and accessible, spending millions of dollars in marketing and product development, competing for the same tourism dollars as we are. It certainly makes it doubly challenging, too, when a potential tourist can fly from New York to Rome for the same price as New York to Halifax.

The world is a rapidly changing place, and our visitor is changing, too. They're no longer content to sit on a motorcoach and watch the scenery go by. Today's visitor is generally much more engaged. They're looking for experiences that involve them, hence the growth in niche markets like birding, kayaking, motorcycling, culinary tourism, wine tours, golfing, et cetera. All these present great tourism opportunities for Nova Scotia in the future.

Not only are our visitors looking for new and engaging experiences, having previously travelled to other destinations, when they arrive in Nova Scotia they expect world-class service and a world-class quality product. Nova Scotians are naturally friendly, and we have a more relaxed lifestyle than many other areas, but we need to remain globally competitive and provide the facilities, the amenities and the experiences these travellers expect, including the ability to shop seven days a week.

The third major change that's occurring lies with the Internet. These days the average traveller knows more about the destination they are visiting than the average citizen who lives there. They have fully explored the geography, the history, the cultural aspects, and they know what's going on, where and when, and have even read reviews from recent travellers before making any decisions about where to stay or what to see. Today one can visit chat rooms on the Internet to discuss the relative merits of one location or one hotel over another, discussing which airline gave the best price and best service. This can be a positive trend, but it can just as easily be a negative trend.

If our visitors become disillusioned with the Cabot Trail or disappointed in Peggys Cove, they're going to start broadcasting their opinion on the Internet for all to see. Our hotels are already experiencing this phenomenon, and I can assure you it is unsettling at best. With such information at their fingertips, our potential visitor is getting much more selective, much more price conscious and value driven, relying less and less on printed material, advertising and guide books, and more and more on other consumers' opinions and voices.

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This will create a real challenge for our Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage as they attempt to communicate awareness messages to the changing global consumer, hence the continual requirement for market research and the development of tourism statistical information. Research is a critically important tool used by industry and government alike, and we need to know if we're concentrating our marketing to the right markets. We need to keep track of the demographics of our visitor and to be constantly aware of new niche markets that are developing in order to keep our finger on the consumer pulse, so that we can deliver the experience our visitors are looking for.

On the other hand, the Internet does level the playing field somewhat for our operators. All of a sudden even the smallest B&B has the same opportunity of being exposed to the potential visitor as does the large hotel or attraction, with many more disposable advertising dollars. Today a majority of travellers are booking their own airline tickets, car rentals and hotel accommodations via the Internet, and there is consequently a huge need out there to assist and train small operators in this new technology in order for them to remain competitive.

Finally, a word about education and training. A well-trained tourism workforce is key to providing excellent service and ensuring visitors have the best possible experience while here. I've already mentioned the importance of training our service staff to world-class standards, and through the efforts of Nova Scotia's Tourism Human Resource Council, this province remains a leader in the development of a skilled and professional workforce. However, just as importantly, we have to provide sufficient employees to service the visitor. By the end of this decade, tourism will employ 40,000 people in direct tourism jobs in Nova Scotia. Where are these people going to come from? Immigration? Unlikely.

We're just not turning out sufficient young people from our schools and colleges with an interest in tourism. It's not a subject on the regular curriculum of any school. We need to expose elementary, junior high and high school students to the importance of tourism to this province. With so many universities here in Nova Scotia, it's somewhat embarrassing that we can only graduate a handful of tourism students each year.

[9:15 a.m.]

Tourism is everyone's business, and here in Nova Scotia we take tourism seriously. Of course we get concerned when we're having a slow or a soft year like 2005 but, as you all know, every business goes through cycles and not every year can be a great one. Everyone's quick to lay blame, point fingers, but the truth is no one issue is the cause of this year's slowdown. Most other regions across Canada are experiencing a similarly difficult tourism year that cannot be blamed on a single cause. What we must do is to ensure the future business climate is right to encourage operators to build, grow and improve their businesses, and to train and develop their human resources, as these issues will represent the future of tourism in Nova Scotia.

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Mr. Chairman, I've talked about why tourism is an important industry to this province, about the vital importance of transportation links, about some of the challenges the industry faces with increasing technology, about our need to improve the quality of visitor services and experiences, and about the need for training and education. I'd like to bring my remarks to a close with an observation about the relationship between tourism and government. There is a strong relationship between the tourism industry and government. We may not always agree with each other, but we do have a shared goal and that is to grow tourism.

Government must continue recognizing that tourism is a major industry in this province, and TIANS appreciates the support that has been given, but government must continue to look for ways to improve that support continually. This is not just about money, it's about an attitude. This is about considering the impact on tourism when any government decision is taken, and this is about putting tourism first. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Carson. Thank you for providing us with a copy of the presentation. Ms. Dean, do you wish to make a presentation?

MS. DEAN: In the interest of time, I'll skip over the introductions, as I think you know who we all are. Thank you very much, again, for the opportunity to speak about the business of tourism. As Nick has said, tourism is an industry Nova Scotians are passionate about, and they recognize that it has a significant impact on the province's economy. Tourism generates annual revenues of $1.3 billion, supports 34,000 jobs in the province and more than $500 million in payroll for Nova Scotians. It's a business that brings in export dollars. That means that the majority of our tourism revenues are generated by people bringing money into Nova Scotia. It returns more than $200 million in tax revenue to municipal and provincial governments, and it's a business that has dedicated partners who want to see it grow.

In Nova Scotia, the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage is fortunate to have strong relationships with the industry. Our shared goal to promote the province and grow the sector enables us to work together to make decisions on planning and on strategy. We may not always share the point of view that's the same, as Nick indicated, but we are committed to making Nova Scotia's tourism industry strong and vibrant.

The Tourism Partnership Council and the department play a shared role in the annual planning and decision making for tourism marketing, research and product development in Nova Scotia. This includes the development of the province's annual tourism plans, which you have a copy of, I believe, and strategies, and deciding whether any adjustments are required in response to changing market conditions. It was the Tourism Partnership Council that developed the Tourism Vision for Nova Scotia, and the Tourism Vision is based on a target to grow tourism revenues by 100 per cent by 2012. It's a goal that all of us believe in and are working towards achieving, both individually and collectively.

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Although we recognize that tourism is an intensely competitive industry and there are many factors beyond our control, we remain committed to working towards this vision. The Province of Nova Scotia is also committed to the sustained growth of the tourism industry. Each year the province provides more than $40 million in funding to support the work of the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage. Approximately half of this funding, or $19 million, is directed towards tourism, while the other half is shared by culture and heritage, both of which have strong ties to tourism.

This year the province made a one-time additional investment of $15 million in Tourism. Of this amount, $10 million was invested in fiscal 2005-06. The remaining $5 million will be invested in 2007-08, based on the results of the initial investment.

I'm pleased to report that the $10 million investment is already hard at work in the areas of marketing, product development and regional tourism in the province: $6.2 million has been invested in our most extensive tourism marketing campaign to date, targeting northeastern U.S., Europe and other key markets - again, you have samples of some of the materials from that campaign in your kit; $3.3 million has been strategically directed toward more than a dozen tourism projects, including enhancements to the Cabot Trail and Peggys Cove, to help strengthen and grow the industry, all consistent with the tourism plan; and $500,000 has been invested in regional tourism initiatives through the province's seven tourism associations. In some cases the impact of these investments will be felt this year, while in others it may be in the years to come.

In Nova Scotia we have seen some positive market trends in the industry over the past five years. Tourism revenues have grown by 8 per cent, from $1.2 billion to $1.3 billion. The payroll for Nova Scotians working in the industry has increased by 9 per cent from $470 million to $513 million. Tax revenues have increased by 8 per cent from $193 million to $209 million. The total number of visitors to the province over the past five years has increased by 3 per cent from 2.1 million to 2.2 million.

As Nick indicated, like any business, the tourism industry does have its challenges. Although the industry is stable it can have its ups and downs. There are a number of factors that can impact the tourism industry in any given year, from poor weather, to high gas prices, to national security. In order to be successful the tourism industry, including individual operators, must be able to adapt to changing market conditions. Tourism is an increasingly competitive business that is global in scope. Not only are we competing with our counterparts in the Atlantic region and the rest of Canada, but we are competing with the rest of the world.

This year the tourism industry has experienced a generally softer season to the end of July compared to last year, not just in Nova Scotia but across the country, this is due to a number of factors. The drop in the number of visitors from the U.S. to Canada has been so

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significant that the Canadian Tourism Commission has struck a task force to examine the issue.

In Nova Scotia we are fortunate to have one of the most efficient and extensive systems of gathering visitor statistics in the country. While other provinces rely largely on anecdotal evidence, we are able to obtain detailed monthly tourism statistics on a timely basis, about 14 days following the end of the month. As soon as these numbers are available we share them with our industry partners and we make them available to the public as part of our commitment to transparency.

This data is of great benefit both to government and industry. Working together we are continually analyzing, researching, making adjustments when necessary, to ensure we are doing everything possible to bring visitors to Nova Scotia. For example, in response to our May statistics this year, which indicated a 5 per cent drop in the overall number of visitors, we made some mid-term adjustments to our marketing campaigns to try to influence travel decision-making for late Summer and Fall. We now have tourism statistics to the end of July 2005, which indicate a slight improvement in the total number of visitors to the province. At the end of July the drop in the overall number of visitors stood at 4 per cent or 1.14 million visitors, compared to 1.18 million visitors during this same period last year.

The season isn't over yet so we don't have the full picture. At the end of the year when we have a more complete picture we will review and analyze the results in consultation with our industry partners. In the meantime, we remain confident in our market strategy which is research-based and customer-driven and is designed to work over time. We also have strong confidence in our industry partnerships and will continue to work together aggressively to market Nova Scotia to our key markets.

Looking ahead to next year, we've already begun the annual planning process and are reviewing a number of potential new opportunities, including a greater focus on air travel and the European market. Both have been positive areas of growth for Nova Scotia's tourism industry, with a 2 per cent increase in the number of visitors arriving by air and a 29 per cent increase in international air visitors so far this year.

As I said earlier, and as Nick indicated, tourism is indeed a business. We're committed to working with our partners to position the province as a world-class tourism destination. We believe that new opportunities combined with strong industry partnerships will enable us to build a strong and vibrant tourism sector that will continue to grow Nova Scotia's economy. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, and to your word you kept it very succinct and moved right along. We have a number of members who have questions and we'll begin with the Progressive Conservative Party.

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The honourable member for Kings North.

MR. MARK PARENT: Thank you for your presentations, I found them quite interesting. Just a few questions, they're rather scattered but questions that have been put to me in my position.

One is by a constituent of mine, Georgie Phinney, who wonders why we don't do more common marketing and market the Atlantic Provinces and the Maritimes as a destination, rather than, she feels competing against each other. What do I respond to her?

MS. DEAN: Actually we do indeed market collectively through our partnership with the Atlantic Canada Tourism Partnership Council, so I can certainly provide you with some details separately on that if you'd like. We do collaborate, overseas we have a strong collaboration in that market, and also in the U.S. market. We also work together to do some detailed research, but there are marketing partnerships in place that package Atlantic Canada, and in particular for the tourism operators overseas, because those are longer-haul markets and so there's much more of a benefit to have the Atlantic Canadian product represented, so we are actively doing that.

MR. PARENT: I would appreciate that information so I can pass it on to her. Another constituent, the manager of the Old Orchard Inn, raises strong concerns to me about the effect of the cruise lines and the support that we give to the cruise line industry, when she feels it really doesn't bring a lot of business to Nova Scotia. In terms of rooms, for example, they stay on the cruise ships, she has been on cruises and she tells me they're encouraged to shop on the cruise ship, they may be encouraged to look at sights when they go off. She raises strong concerns to me about the cruise ship industry and the fact that it really doesn't bring in the business to Nova Scotia, to the business owners here, that she feels businesses such as hers do. Again, what do I respond to a person like that?

MR. CLERK: I wouldn't mind answering that myself. One of our company's duties is as project manager for the cruise ship passenger pavillion at Pier 21, from the Halifax Port Authority. She raises a good point, but the support from the Department of Tourism is not that great at all, I certainly haven't seen it. What this represents is a segment of the tourism industry worldwide, it is incremental to what her business is. It does, even today, bring in - I think we're looking at - $50 million to the Province of Nova Scotia. That is not included in these tourism numbers because tourists are considered overnight guests in this province.

For whatever reason, we exclude the numbers that are coming in by a cruise ship. They do bring in a huge amount of economic activity through replenishing the ship, they do spend money in the cities and towns when they take tours to the country. In some ways they introduce these new tourists to Nova Scotia. There have been many cases where they've said, I love what I've seen and I'm coming back. That is anecdotal, I haven't seen any hard evidence to that effect, but we've been at the cruise pavillion now for the last seven years,

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and the response that I get time and time again to Nova Scotia is amazing, they are just blown away by the friendliness of Nova Scotia, the cleanliness and all the things that we aspire to be as an industry.

I think the manager of the Old Orchard Inn may have guests and future business out of this industry but I don't believe that it competes directly with her industry.

MR. PARENT: You raised, Mr. Carson, the question of the shape of our roads and no one would dispute that point with you. I was at a conference along with my colleague, Charlie Parker, on the state of our roads and the Chamber of Commerce pointed out the lack of funding the federal government has given to the Province of Nova Scotia versus the Province of New Brunswick in regard to road upkeep.

You sounded a little bit like a politician because you raised the whole issue of tolls but you say, we don't necessarily want tolls. So what other ways are there of raising money for our roads? Do you want tolls on the highways or do you not want tolls on the highways?

MR. CARSON: I'm not suggesting any solutions to the problem, I'm just saying that we certainly need to consider the roads and the maintenance of our roads as an absolute priority. If there are any other ways to raise money, whether it's through gas taxes, whether it's through tolls, or whatever it is, we should consider them at least.

MR. PARENT: Do you find that tourists complain about the 100-Series or are the complaints mainly about the secondary roads once they get off the 100-Series?

MR. CARSON: Mainly about the secondary roads.

MR. PARENT: And do you get a lot of complaints about that?

MR. CARSON: I think we hear a fair amount. Certainly, when you talk to the tourists you certainly hear a fair amount about it, particularly in certain areas.

MR. PARENT: How big a factor do you think it is in dissuading tourism?

MR. CARSON: It's hard to put a number on it but they are not necessarily a positive asset, in general, I'll put it like that.

MR. PARENT: Okay, I'll come back in round two.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We try to time our questions to about five minutes this time around and I'll ask all people involved to try, if they can, to keep them as brief as possible.

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[9:30 a.m.]

The honourable member for Halifax Chebucto.

MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Deputy, when we saw you last, in August, there was a discussion, of course, about the then-recent events at the Halifax International Airport. This, of course, was the interruption of a variety of flights due to the combination of maintenance and rebuilding of the landing strips, along with fog. You'll probably recall that there was discussion about whether the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Heritage was going to be able to make contact with the individual passengers. I think what we were told at the time was that the minister was interested in writing to all the passengers who had been inconvenienced, but that the request for that had to go through the airlines, since, of course, he wouldn't have access to individual names and addresses, or any kind of contact information.

I think it was suggested to you that speed was fairly important in this. What I'm wondering now is whether you could bring us up to date and let us know what the current state of play is? Has there been any progress? Has the minister been able to write to these people? What's going on?

MS. DEAN: What I'll do is update you on that. I have had discussions with some of the airlines, and one in particular is not able to accommodate our request to get a message through. It's pending with some of the other airlines. So, the communication isn't over yet, but I do know that with one airline in particular it will not be possible for us to get a message, through them, to their customers. I would endeavour to update the committee as soon as my conversations are completed with the rest of the airlines, and I will certainly bring you up to date as soon as that is done.

MR. EPSTEIN: Can you tell us the nature of the problem that was encountered with the one airline that has definitely said that they can't accommodate the request? Were they raising a legal barrier? Were they saying that they just didn't know where their passengers were to be found? What was the nature of the problem?

MS. DEAN: I think the issue stems from the list and the confidentiality of the information on their passengers. Again, I would endeavour to update the committee members fully on this as soon as I have had the discussion with all of the airlines and I have a full picture. I think that we spent a lot of time discussing this issue at the last appearance, and I know that you have discussed with the HIAA, but I would be pleased to provide a full report on that as soon as I've discussed it with everyone.

MR. EPSTEIN: The reason I raise it, of course, is that the more weeks and months that go by since the event the less impact any kind of contact will ultimately have in offsetting the negative experience the people had. So, speed is of the essence in this.

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MS. DEAN: I appreciate your concern, I do.

MR. EPSTEIN: I have to say that if one of the concerns is confidentiality, I didn't understand that the department or the minister was looking to know who the passengers were, I thought the airlines were being asked to pass on the message from the minister, thereby maintaining the confidentiality of identity. Has that been made clear to the airlines?

MS. DEAN: Again, I will provide you with a full report. I would be pleased to do that as soon as I've had discussions with all of them. They have different issues, and . . .

MR. EPSTEIN: That's not an acceptable answer. I asked you whether it had been made clear to the airlines that the department wasn't asking for the names of the individuals. If it's the opposite, if the department is asking for the names of the individuals, you should be able to say that now.

MS. DEAN: It was made clear to the airlines that we were not asking for the names of the individuals, that we would be open to alternate means of communicating with them at the discretion of the airlines.

MR. EPSTEIN: Then let's move on to another topic. There was an interesting article in the business pages today of The ChronicleHerald. I'm sure you saw it and are aware of it. The focus of the issue that the business reporter, Mr. Roger Taylor, wrote had to do with the question of whether tourism overall this year is down or very down. But there was even a question of whether the numbers might be up. It seemed from your presentation this morning that overall numbers weren't up, and that there's perhaps a statement at the beginning of the article that doesn't seem to be accurate at all - I'll just put that on the record. He said, " . . . numbers released by the province's Tourism Department seem to indicate the number of visitors has actually risen two per cent this year over last." I take it from your presentation that that's clearly not right.

MS. DEAN: And I think I understand where the . . .

MR. EPSTEIN: That would be the airline passengers, would it?

MS. DEAN: Yes, the air is up 2 per cent, year to date. That's the piece that's up. So that's where the inconsistency is.

MR. EPSTEIN: So we can get rid of that right away.

MS. DEAN: Absolutely.

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MR. EPSTEIN: That's not on. So, it's either slightly down or significantly down. I guess that's really the question, because the rest of the article goes on to suggest that numbers are down at least in some parts of the province, particularly, perhaps, the southern part of the province fairly significantly. They link that to last year, where they say that's on top of a year which wasn't actually all that successful. I'm wondering if you can actually give us the bottom line from 2004, and also perhaps just tell us a little bit more about how you gather your stats?

MS. DEAN: Certainly, I can do that. I would also like to add that it is a very interesting article, and it's based on an anonymous letter, which I find a little surprising.

MR. EPSTEIN: I find that surprising, too.

MS. DEAN: I guess I would just have to question the validity of the information in there. At any rate, I will do my best and, Nick, if you would like to assist me. In terms of the season and where we're going, I think 2004 was a year where we had $1.31 billion in revenues, and that was up from $1.2 billion the year before. So there has been an increase. When you look at tourism overall, there's a strong increase from the year 2000 to 2004. During that year, there are shifts, there are minor fluctuations.

Total visitation in 2004, for example, was 2.2 million. In 2003, it was 2.1 million. So we were up last year over the previous year. Again, the year before that was 2.18 million. There was a minor fluctuation between 2002 and 2003. You do see small fluctuations in terms of up and down, but overall this is a relatively stable industry - it's a $1 billion industry - that has consistently shown growth, maybe incremental growth in some years, but overall it is stable growth. This year we don't have the full picture, and I need to emphasize that. We're only looking at the season, as at the end of July. We still have numbers for August. September and October are proving to be very strong months for tourism. The Fall season, there's a lot more product and there is stronger visitation in the Fall.

Now, in terms of how we capture our statistics - specifically, what would you like to know?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, Howard, your time has expired at this particular time. I have to move over to your colleague, the member for Dartmouth East.

MS. JOAN MASSEY: Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to follow along with Mr. Epstein's question on the questionable numbers. I also received the anonymous letter a few weeks ago. There's a lot more information in there than just that question. This Summer, when I did travel around to certain areas in the province to different operators - the feeling out there is that these numbers are not correct, that I see on here. If I look at them now, it appears that some of them have actually changed, the list of numbers from June and when they show up

[Page 14]

on the July sheet, they aren't actually the same numbers. Maybe I'm looking at that in the wrong light. I've never actually gone and compared the two previous months in that way.

People out there in the industry are certainly questioning these numbers. If they're on the front lines and they go to their local industry meetings, and everybody is sitting around the table saying, we've had this many visitors and they compare their numbers, when they see this come out, they can't believe what they're reading. They're saying this is not right.

When you get an anonymous letter, and when I go to actually speak to people in the industry and they don't want their names or businesses mentioned, there seems to be some sort of underlying fear out there, I don't know if it's the government or what it is, but if the people in the industry, themselves, don't feel comfortable with the numbers then if you don't know what's wrong, how can you fix it? I guess that's where I'm going with my question, if there seems to be a discrepancy with the people on the front lines and our government saying two different things, then how are they going to solve any of these issues or problems that we really are facing?

Along that line, talking about numbers, I'm just wondering, you did touch on the cruise ships and how they're not counted. Yet, don't we count visitors who come into the province say, if somebody comes in from New Brunswick and they're just staying overnight, they're not actually a tourist, they're here on business, but we are counting them as soon as they enter. So I don't understand why we don't count the people who are coming off the cruise ships.

MR. CLERK: The definition of a visitor is an overnight guest, they have to stay overnight, whether they're here on business, pleasure, travel, to see their mother, whatever.

MR. CARSON: Can I respond to part of your question? It's very difficult sometimes to compare statistical information with anecdotal information. It is a requirement by the province that hotel operators throughout this province declare the numbers of rooms they sell. That's a requirement of their licence, so we know accurately how many rooms have been sold from one end of the province to the other.

When we start talking to people you hear slightly different stories because they're not taking into consideration the increase in available rooms. If you look at the growth in available rooms over the last four years, the growth has outstripped the demand. So what's happening is supply is increasing faster than demand and as a result, occupancy is dropping. The people who suffer the most generally are those who are in the, shall we say, lower-quality operations or the very expensive operations, the ones at either end of the scale. So they tend to, from an anecdotal point of view, feel that their business is much more impacted than perhaps the overall picture accurately is.

[Page 15]

The same situation occurs here in Halifax. We have an accurate count on the number of rooms that we sell here but as more hotels are added, so occupancies go down and that becomes a challenge.

MS. MASSEY: I would just like to jump on to the issue of camping in Nova Scotia. I know we've heard this morning and in the presentation that air travel is up and that's great, we like to see that sector growing, because we are seeing people travel that way. I just want to put a little advertisement there for our campgrounds across Nova Scotia because I think they're part of the backbone of the province.

One of the issues that has come up recently, that I've been made aware of, is there seems to be perhaps some competition between our campground operators and the province itself, as far as the rates that they charge for unserviced lots and that there perhaps is unfair competition there because our campgrounds are charging more than what the provincial campgrounds are. There has actually been a refurbished campground at Porters Lake and it is now offering serviced lots, which seems to be something new, as far as provincial campsites go, because I believe that wasn't being offered before. I'm just wondering if somebody can enlighten me or elaborate on that topic. What are we doing to help our campground operators and are we unfairly competing with them at our provincial sites?

MS. DEAN: Yes, we're trying to do as much as we can to promote the experience of campgrounds through our Visitor Information Centres and to work with COANS and there are issues there that we are looking at with respect to the campgrounds and camping. First and foremost we want to make sure that the visitors who want that camping experience know where in the province they can have access to it. We want to try to promote that and we do that through the various marketing and advertising vehicles that we have, and also our Doers and Dreamers Guide.

[9:45 a.m.]

With respect to the provincial campgrounds, I will have to get some more information on that specific issue. The Department of Natural Resources has the campgrounds, but I will explore that in further detail for you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

The honourable member for Annapolis.

MR. STEPHEN MCNEIL: First of all I want to wish the deputy minister a happy birthday.

MS. DEAN: Thank you, and where's the cake? (Laughter)

[Page 16]

MR. MCNEIL: I was going to sing to you but the meeting is a little early.

On Page 6 of your presentation you mentioned that tourism revenues have grown 8 per cent, $1.2 billion to $1.3 billion. In 1999, the total revenue is $1.27 billion and last year, I think, it had grown to $1.3 billion. This year it is at $1.27 billion so in actual fact it hasn't grown any, you're really at 1999 levels.

MS. DEAN: Compared to 2000, from 2000 to 2004, if you look at the absolutes. That's the growth that I was expressing in terms of the 8 per cent.

MR. MCNEIL: That may go back to the numbers and why people don't have any confidence in them, quite honestly. When you say that and look at 1999 and you had $1.27 billion, and for statistical reasons we're taking the worst year that you have had in the last five as our bottom and we're taking the best year, which was a year ago. We're saying we had an 8 per cent increase when, in actual fact, in 1999 it was $1.27 billion and that's exactly where we were last year. So for all that we've done, we've actually moved nowhere.

MS. DEAN: I think if you look at 2004, which was $1.3 billion, I don't think you can say that we've moved nowhere, there has been an increase. As I said before, there are fluctuations in this industry but it is a relatively stable industry that is showing some signs of potential for growth.

MR. MCNEIL: But as a citizen of Nova Scotia, if I was to read this, you have an 8 per cent increase you said and in actual fact you don't. We can split hairs but the reality is in 1999 the industry was $1.27 billion, you are taking the absolute worst year that we had, which is a year later, you're taking the best year, which was the previous year, and we're ignoring the fact that in 1999, the industry had a revenue of $1.27 billion which is what it is right now.

MS. DEAN: I appreciate where you're coming from. You can take any point in time and compare it to any other point in time and come up with a percentage increase, decrease, whatever. I think in terms of transparency, if Nova Scotians want to see where we are at in terms of the industry and the industry revenue, it's expressed here in Tourism Industry Facts, it's on the Web site and they can see very clearly where the fluctuations are between 2000 and 2004, and when we have the 2005 figures, they'll be right there alongside of them.

I think it depends on what you're comparing it to. If I were to compare 2003 to 2004, it would be a smaller increase. Next year, if I'm comparing 2004 to 2005, likely there will be a small decrease. Again, they are there and I've picked 2000 to show a five-year trend; I could have picked 1999 and compared it to 2004 and shown a different percentage increase. But I think the message is that it is a stable industry that does have fluctuations along the way.

[Page 17]

MR. MCNEIL: It's a stable industry and I guess it is if you look at - and I'll leave it at this, the industry has really not moved forward. The government has talked about growing revenue 100 per cent in 2012.

MR. CLERK: Industry has stated that goal, that is an industry-led initiative, a vision.

MR. MCNEIL: With the partnership of the government.

MR. CLERK: In the Tourism Partnership Council which is an industry led by . . .

MR. MCNEIL: A partnership with government.

MR. CLERK: In partnership with the Department of Tourism, yes.

MR. MCNEIL: Correct. We're now presently at 1999 levels. At what point will Nova Scotians have some hope that we're going to move forward on that goal?

MS. DEAN: Well, I think that as a group, TIANS, the Tourism Partnership Council, the province, that goal was set as a goal, as a vision, as a target for growth that everybody could buy into. We want to make progress towards that goal. We'd love to double our revenues and reach that goal by 2012. It is a goal. It's something that we're all striving towards, and progress that we make towards that is all positive. I don't know if you want to add something to that, Charles.

MR. CLERK: I think you raise a good point. I think your observation is accurate. I've asked the same question of myself and the colleagues who sit around our table, how are we going to get this industry really going, really fundamentally changed? What the vision did is it tackled not only the attitude of the industry to set out a visionary goal to attain, but it also laid out the components that it would take to get there. Several of the components speak to the structure of the industry, the way we do business, because this is a business. When we say it's a stable business, it doesn't swing up 30 per cent or down 30 per cent, it is a sustainable business.

We wanted to knock it out of that sort of, you could call it, doldrums, of being maybe too stable, always the same numbers. We see the possibility. You talk about when are Nova Scotians going to see the hope, we already have seen what we believe is the future. It's not always money pushing into the industry that makes the fundamental change, it takes attitude. It takes attitude between government departments.

MR. MCNEIL: How many visitors come through Pier 21?

MR. CLERK: About 200,000.

[Page 18]

MR. MCNEIL: Is there a VIC there?

MR. CLERK: There is an information centre there.

MR. MCNEIL: Does the province have a VIC there?

MR. CLERK: No.

MR. MCNEIL: Would it not make sense to you, if 200,000 people come through there, the idea of a cruise ship and a cruise ship tourist is to try to get them to come back, to try to have them come back to Nova Scotia . . .

MR. CLERK: That's what we do.

MR. MCNEIL: Would it not make sense for the province to have a VIC at Pier 21?

MR. CLERK: They get all the information through the information kiosk.

MR. MCNEIL: Are you promoting Annapolis Royal? Are you promoting Yarmouth? Are you promoting . . .

MR. CLERK: What we do is we promote the entire province. Our duty is to get the consumer and the visitor back here to the province. After that it's up to the individual regions and operators to spread it out. We cannot, as a body - it doesn't make sense to me - go out and try to promote one of 3,000 operators. What we do is we sell the brand of Nova Scotia.

MR. MCNEIL: Wouldn't it make sense for the province to be promoting at Pier 21?

MR. CLERK: It wouldn't make any difference. They're doing an excellent job right now, the people down there at the information kiosk.

MR. MCNEIL: It wouldn't make any difference to the numbers that 247,000 people arrive through Pier 21, and the province is not there to promote it?

MR. CLERK: That's not how the industry works. The cruise industry comes to Nova Scotia because they make money here. They make money. It's a business for them, and they bring the passengers here.

MR. MCNEIL: Tourism works by encouraging somebody to come back, and the province is not at Pier 21. Wouldn't it make sense to hit them at their entry point?

MR. CLERK: They get all the information they need, whether it's delivered by the province or HRM.

[Page 19]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McNeil, I think you've used up all your time, there's not even enough left to sing happy birthday at this time. We'll come back to you a little later.

The honourable member for Eastern Shore.

MR. WILLIAM DOOKS: Good morning and welcome. I have just a couple of comments. Tourism and the success of tourism is sort of open to different interpretations, what's the reason for the numbers to be down, why people are not coming. It seems like everyone is a tourism expert. It seems to me that quite often negative comments are printed rather than the positive comments. I see that happening in my riding lately. Mr. Chairman, I always say it's a poor crow that blackens its own nest, if you can understand what that means. Think about that.

Tourism is open to interpretation. The Eastern Shore riding has many things to offer. First of all we have to understand that it's a coastal community, it has the new park, as the member across the way has mentioned, beautiful Martinique Beach, MacDonald House, on and on, but what we're experiencing on the Eastern Shore is an opportunity to express ourselves in a new and exciting way. We're offering B&Bs, we're offering kayaking, we're offering beautiful beaches, but people have been to B&Bs, people have been to the beaches, and I think they're reaching out for something more exciting.

The people on the Eastern Shore have new and exciting ideas, but they're unable to move further with them because of lending partners. When we talk about government wanting to have a new attitude, banks and government agencies are turning away from lending monies to tourism operators to upgrade or to improve their facility or to look at a new and exciting idea. I had the opportunity to call a government agency yesterday in anticipation of this meeting today, not as an MLA but as a constituent. I was surprised with the comments that I heard: tourism is down and we're hesitant to lend, tourism is not good in Nova Scotia, so we don't want to back anyone. Can you imagine?

This province has been built on taking opportunities, taking chances. Some will achieve their goals, and some will fail. There's no doubt about that. Entrepreneurs know that. So in the spirit of what I'm saying, we see the forestry, we see the fishery and we see farming in Nova Scotia as resource-based industries and, guess what, there's a Farm Loan Board, there's a Fisheries Loan Board, and so on and so forth. So I think both government and industry should start lobbying and pooling your resources together to make sure that governments and/or lending institutions have a new approach towards lending to people in the tourism industry, and not necessarily to lend for the traditional type of tourism, if that area could be assessed, but for new and exciting ideas.

The Eastern Shore is a wonderful place to visit and to bring your family. It's safe, it's clean, it's nice, and I encourage all people in Nova Scotia - I'll put the plug in here - Canada and abroad to come to the Eastern Shore to see the beautiful things we have to offer. But in

[Page 20]

saying that, people are alive there, the tourism industry is alive there, and they want an opportunity to move ahead. We need a tourism lending board. We need a place where tourism people who have a new and exciting idea would be able to come to government, maybe with a board made up of industry and government together, put their proposal on the table and say, my gosh, you have a good idea, we want to lend you money.

That would be, as you said, the new attitude towards tourism. How can we grow if no one has the availability of funds? You just don't happen to have $1 million in the bank that you pull out on your own to try to upgrade your facility. I just want these comments to be on the record today. I do want you to take what I've said seriously. I want to now get onto another issue. No maybe not, I'm going to leave that for another time. I think that's all I'm going to say today.

I think I've made my point, that tourism in Nova Scotia, the good things should be printed and that would encourage people to come, rather than the crow scenario, saying bad things about Nova Scotia that turn people away. Most of our energy should be expressed in welcoming people to our province, not turning them away, constantly talking about bad roads, constantly talking about bad beaches, constantly talking about this, blah, blah. Come and see what we have to offer. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Dooks, thank you. Maybe that will elicit some comments from one of our guests.

MR. CLERK: I'll make a brief response. Financing has always been a hurdle for the tourism industry. In our particular business we have stores across the province, and in our particular case we have stores across eastern Canada, so not only do we see how Nova Scotia performs but we see the other provinces in eastern Canada performing. Believe me, the best place for tourism is to be in Nova Scotia. But as far as financing goes, I've been on the receiving end of a banker's comment saying, wow, you're in two bad categories, you're in tourism and in retail. At the end of the day the existing structure that's in place now lends on a business plan, it has to make business sense to the banks.

[10:00 a.m.]

Do I think that we could use a new look at the lending institutions, perhaps a tourism loan board? Absolutely. I think if it makes business sense within a tourism context, I'm all for it.

MR. DOOKS: Just one comment. Because that board would be made up of people who have tourism experience and sense, it would be more friendly and they wouldn't be as scared to deal with tourism, as maybe people that depend on their experience in the business world in lending decisions. Thank you.

[Page 21]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Clare.

MR. WAYNE GAUDET: I want to thank our presenters this morning. I want to start off with the ferry in Yarmouth, the Scotia Prince. As everyone is aware, western Nova Scotia certainly has felt the impact of the Scotia Prince pulling out and I'm sure throughout Nova Scotia. Speaking with one of the ladies responsible for the bus tours in Church Point, of the church, as everyone is aware, Church Point has the oldest and biggest wooden church in all of North America. Just for the committee and our guests, speaking with this lady she was telling me that looking at the numbers of bus tours in 2003, we had 178 bus tours that came in. In 2004 we had about 180 and so far this year at the end of July, we had about 25. Those numbers are not going to increase that much this year.

She has been in contact with the bus tours and they've been told the fact that the ferries are coming in late in Yarmouth with The Cat, it doesn't allow the bus tours to do the regular stops that they had along the way. Of course, they used to stop in Church Point and they stopped at the Mountain Gap Inn for lunch. Those stops were cancelled this year. The first stop was in Grand Pré, so from Yarmouth, the first stop coming off The Cat was in Grand Pré this Summer. So, of course, the whole Annapolis Valley has been hit by the Scotia Prince not running this year.

My first question is, have there been any developments on this file? What is the possibility of the Scotia Prince returning or resuming its run next year from Portland to Yarmouth? I'm just curious if the department or the industry has heard anything on this.

MS. DEAN: In terms of the Scotia Prince resuming that route, I haven't heard that they would. As you probably know, and as was widely reported, it was a business decision that caused them to cancel that route, specifically, the situation at the Portland terminal where they believed that there was mould, they cancelled their route before the season started.

I know that we have been in constant contact with representatives in Yarmouth, as well as Portland. Ministers Hurlburt and Rodney MacDonald have had discussions, there have been active discussions with other potential operators, but to date, in terms of the Scotia Prince itself, I don't have any concrete information on their intention to return to that route.

MR. CARSON: I believe this will be a purely business decision made by somebody who feels that it warrants putting on such a vessel. You just indicated your concern about bus tours, this goes back to the point that I made earlier about changing markets, we're not in the old-fashioned, 20-year-old bus tour market that we used to be in, things are changing, our customer is changing, our consumer is changing. The Scotia Prince was carrying less bus tours every year and would have been one of the factors that they looked at before they terminated that service.

[Page 22]

With the decline in U.S. travel that we've been experiencing for some time now, I'm not surprised that the Scotia Prince made that decision. It's unfortunate, but I don't think there's anything we can do, necessarily, to encourage somebody else to reintroduce such a service unless it makes good business sense.

You heard The Cat operator saying the other day that it's $18,000 a trip in gas alone on that vessel of theirs. When they're only carrying 30 per cent to 40 per cent loads, it's very hard for them to make a profit, so I can understand it with the Scotia Prince.

MR. GAUDET: It was reported in the Yarmouth Vanguard that Portland was in the process of doing renovations to its terminal. We were aware that Ministers Hurlburt and Rodney MacDonald had a meeting in Portland with officials there. I'm just curious, is there a slight possibility that the ferry may return next year or is that dead in the water?

MS. DEAN: I can't possibly speculate on that with any degree of certainly, I hesitate to do that.

MR. GAUDET: So what came out of those meetings? Did we find anything out?

MS. DEAN: I haven't heard anything from Scotia Prince.

MR. GAUDET: And the department, are we doing anything to try to follow up to the minister's visit, is Portland reconsidering?

MS. DEAN: We are continuing discussions with potential operators, but at this point I don't have anything concrete.

MR. GAUDET: So we're doing very little as a department?

MS. DEAN: No, I wouldn't say that. I would say that we are continuing to work with interested parties to see if there's anything that is possible. We're continuing to aggressively market, I know that that's not the complete solution. The province would love to see a ferry service resumed but again, as Mr. Carson said, it is a business decision. The province is very anxious to have some resolution as well.

MR. GAUDET: I guess I'm trying to find out, is the department in contact with the people in Portland to find out what the latest is on this file, whether there are talks going on with the company about the ferry resuming its run next year, or not? I'm just curious, is the province doing anything, yes or no?

MS. DEAN: We will get an update on that for you.

[Page 23]

MR. GAUDET: I would love to have that. There have been some talks about a ferry running from Shelburne to Boston next year. I'm wondering if the department has any update on this one?

MS. DEAN: We actually have met with Senator Tarr, the Premier had a meeting, the minister had a meeting. There was a group, Shores Atlantic, that has been meeting with stakeholders in Shelburne, with stakeholders in government, as well as Boston. We have expressed the desire to see their business case, we are interested to see what their plans are. I believe that meeting was two weeks ago.

MR. GAUDET: Is the province considering putting funding in that project?

MS. DEAN: I couldn't speak to that. All I know is that we would like to see the business case for that run and to see exactly what they are proposing. We've had preliminary discussions with the group.

MR. GAUDET: So I'm hearing mixed messages on the ground at home. I'm hearing it's a definite possibility and from other sources that it's not possible whatsoever. Of course, it comes back to the funding of the project so I'm curious if the department had any indication whether or not this is a reality, if it could certainly become a possibility, or at the same time, is this just someone dreaming?

MR. CARSON: It could become a possibility but when I met with the group a couple of weeks ago, they had not even secured a vessel, they hadn't even gotten a boat. I think that the first thing is, they have to get a ship; then they have to clear up the situation with the stevedores or whatever it is in Boston; there's a lot of work that has to be done in Shelburne before a ferry could dock there; there's the customs situation. So they have a lot of ducks to put in a row before there's any positive news there. They have a lot of work to do, I think, but we're all supportive and very encouraging of them.

MS. DEAN: As of yesterday they hadn't secured a vessel.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It's hard to get a seat in Fenway, too. (Laughter)

The honourable member for Pictou West.

MR. CHARLES PARKER: Good morning, folks, sorry for being late. Yes, I come from the North Shore, from Pictou West. Everybody else has been talking about their area so I'll put in a plug for our New Scotland Days coming up Thursday, Friday and Saturday of this week in Pictou, honouring our Scottish heritage. You are all welcome to come to Pictou and enjoy the Ship Hector and our Scottish heritage.

[Page 24]

I want to ask a question about Come to Life. Earlier this year our government promoted the idea of Come to Life or Wake up Nova Scotia, it was trumpeted as being a great thing for Nova Scotia, it was supposed to be across all government departments. I'm just curious how that has played out in the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage. What benefits has it been to the department and how are you promoting Come to Life within the department?

MS. DEAN: That's a good question. As I understand it, the Come to Life is a Nova Scotia brand so that's like an umbrella that really is a branding for the entire province. That brand is made up of a number of different key attributes that different departments can link into with their various components. So, for example, one of the key attributes of Nova Scotia's Come to Life brand is coastal and of course that is exactly what we do. We promote Nova Scotia's coast so our marketing and advertising and branding activities are focused on that coastal piece. Another one of the brand attributes is accessibility and so we also promote the accessibility piece in Nova Scotia's brand through our activities.

So, again, I think that Come to Life is about a philosophy, it's about an attitude, it's about Nova Scotia and what it means to everybody. It's also about projecting a positive image - we've heard that earlier today - and a positive impression about Nova Scotia in other markets so that people will be engaged and interested in Nova Scotia. As well, for the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage, we see ourselves as promoting one of the pillars of Nova Scotia's brand so we are one player in the whole branding exercise for the province.

MR. PARKER: As a motto, or as a term, I haven't heard it this Summer, to be honest, anywhere. It was heavily promoted back in the Spring when it was announced, but is it still alive or is it coming to life or is it dead? I just haven't heard about it lately at all.

MS. DEAN: Well, I suspect it is. It is, as I said, an overarching program that is supposed to be government-wide. I think that we are continuing to see how it's intended to be rolled out and used in the next few months.

MR. PARKER: I will ask TIANS then, from your point of view, is it a benefit, the motto of that program?

MR. CARSON: Sorry, I can't comment on the Come to Life campaign. I know very little about it. It's not something that I'm too aware of.

MR. PARKER: Perhaps it is dead. I just haven't heard too much about it lately, to be honest.

MR. CARSON: I don't think it comes from the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage.

[Page 25]

MS. DEAN: No.

MR. PARKER: No, it's a government-wide initiative and I just haven't heard much about it since it was first rolled out.

MS. DEAN: I don't think it's dead. I think that the whole implementation of it is something that is continuing and that would be why you haven't heard.

MR. PARKER: Perhaps it will be rejuvenated or come back but I just haven't heard much on it lately.

I want to ask another question then. As I mentioned, coming from the North Shore and cruise ships, there is a group in the Town of Pictou and all in the gulf region trying to promote a cruise ship industry and meetings have been held just last week on this, with the idea of a private operator with a number of stops in the gulf region - Newfoundland, P.E.I., Gaspé, Pictou and some other ports. I think there are 12 potential stopping points. Ms. Dean, is there any help from your department to help promote that particular project? Are you aware of it in any aspects?

MS. DEAN: Specifically, I'm not but certainly we would welcome more information on that if you would like to send it our way and we will take a look at that.

MR. PARKER: It could be a boon or a benefit to the North Shore area of this province and the whole region. So it's a different focus but I think it has some merit for tourism in this province.

I guess I have further time here. Again, Ms. Dean, I want to ask in particular about under heritage, the McCullough House in the Town of Pictou has been closed now for a number of years. It's part of the complex with the Hector Centre, genealogical research centre named after Thomas McCullough, and my understanding is it was supposed to be opened this year. Now it may be opened next year. Is it possible to get an update on the status of that particular tourism facility?

MS. DEAN: I will and I will send it to you.

MR. PARKER: You aren't aware at the moment.

MS. DEAN: I don't have the specific information on it right now but I will find that for you and get back to you.

MR. PARKER: Okay, great. Thank you.

[Page 26]

[10:15 a.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Digby-Annapolis.

MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: Thank you, panel, for coming here and spending the time with us. It's very interesting. I'm from Digby, Nova Scotia, the most romantic town in Canada. (Laughter)

MR. CARSON: I was there last weekend with the motorcycles.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Prove it, Junior.

MR. DOOKS: I think I'll go up there for the weekend.

MR. THERIAULT: It's the scallops that do it, and the alders.

I just want to echo, I've talked to a lot of tourism operators, my family has been in the tourism business for many years too. The statistics that you tell here are nothing like that I know of and are being told to me. There are some businesses down home, 30 per cent and 40 per cent down over last year. There are lots of factors there that we believe are causing, mostly Americans. There are no American visitors. I spoke to a few Americans myself and they feel that the people down there feel safer inside their border right now with what's going on. Most of our people are from Upper Canada, Quebec, Ontario, Alberta. Not too many from the U.K. this year either.

Anyway, you say you advertise the province as a whole. The whale-watching business in the Bay of Fundy, I believe you can ask probably people in your department and you can probably ask anybody in this province and they'll tell you where the best whale-watching is. You put a card out like this of Peggys Cove and right in the middle of it at the bottom, the caption is whales breaching. Do you know how many whales you would see breach off of Peggys Cove in the run of a year? If you saw one, you would be damn lucky.

I've travelled all over this province. I've been around all the coast. I've been on the water for 35 years. The best whale-watching in this province is in the Bay of Fundy. Always was and always will be unless nature changes that. You can probably go through every bit of this literature you've given us, I don't know if western Nova Scotia is mentioned. It may be. If I look hard enough, I may find it. This has been brought to my attention, and it didn't have to be because I know it anyway, personally. I think this Fall you're going to hear a lot more from operators down that way who are very concerned. We have new operations that have gone into it in the last couple of years that are on the verge of bankruptcy right now, a few of them, and I know one personally that is going that way. You can look through all these pictures, but this here of Peggys Cove and the whales breaching, it's so false - so, so, so false.

[Page 27]

I'll tell you another story - 20,000 people come to Halifax in the Summer to watch whales, 90 per cent go back to their home, there are no damn whales in Nova Scotia. We get the odd one trickle down through to western Nova Scotia who have a great experience and said if they hadn't have gone to the pub or the restaurant afterwards of their whale-watching out of Halifax, they would have missed that experience in western Nova Scotia. Years and years I've been at it down there and heard all of this. I've tried to get this message across. We've had people from your department down there. Every picture of every breaching whale, every beautiful picture that has been taken has come out of the Bay of Fundy and I've seen them advertised off of Lunenburg, off of Halifax, whales breaching off of Peggys Cove.

I don't know if I've got a question here but I'm just telling you the way it is, and that's a fact. If the people of western Nova Scotia don't hear differently and see differently from this department, you've got trouble on your hands from down there. I'm bringing you this message from the most romantic town in Canada, with the best whale-watching in Nova Scotia. Things need to change. Does your department have any statistics on the whale-watching industry of this province? Do they have any?

MS. DEAN: I don't know, I'd have to go and check. What type of statistics on whale-watching did you need?

MR. THERIAULT: Where the people go. You had the statistics for where people stay, how many people stay in hotels, how many people eat and where they eat . . .

MS. DEAN: How many people would go whale-watching?

MR. THERIAULT: Ten per cent of the people who come to this province come to see the whales, I believe. I would say a very big percentage go to where there are no whales. We feel that's not right. It's not right for the advertising of this province. It's not right for the whole industry itself. It needs to be corrected, somehow. That's all I have to say.

MS. DEAN: I appreciate your comments.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That concludes the first round of questions. I wonder if I might, just before we go to a few members who have some other questions, if it's okay, just ask a few questions. I'm proud to say that I live in the interior of Nova Scotia, so to speak. We certainly don't have any whales to watch, but we have lots of beautiful scenery.

MR. DOOKS: The romance is good though.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, the romance is quite excellent. (Interruptions) These guys are giving me a hard time, I'm losing my focus.

[Page 28]

I wanted to point out that just off the busiest highway in this province, Highway No. 102, between Halifax and Truro, resides the Shubenacadie Wildlife Park. While it does come under the Department of Natural Resources, they average approximately 100,000 visitors a year. I'm just curious as to whether or not our guests feel that either of their entities are really doing enough to promote and market and facilitate the thousands of visitors who come to the Shubenacadie Wildlife Park?

MR. CLERK: It is one of many products. Personally I take every guest we have in Truro there. I think it's a great product. It certainly showcases what we have here in natural wildlife. It is a unique experience. Is it promoted more than others? I wouldn't suggest that it is, but within the provincial information that's given out through the Visitor Information Centres it is one of many products. It's certainly highlighted as something to see.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm just curious as to whether or not it might be a better fit, either within the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage or, certainly, merged somehow with the department. I think there may be some opportunities that we may be missing, again. It's unknown but it certainly would be worth a look. That's all I would say regarding that.

Now, there's no question that people love to watch airplanes. If there's any doubt, just last weekend, again, that message was sent home in spades. The Halifax International Airport, of course, is basically in our backyard. People along the Old Guysborough Road, I know when we're travelling and when members of my family are with me, it doesn't matter what time of day or night it is, there are always people sitting there watching the airplanes. I'm not sure whether there's anything that can be developed or even if it would be feasible, but I can tell you there are always vehicles there, 24/7, year-round. There's really not what you would call an appropriate facility there to park safely and watch the planes, either ascend or descend, or just sit on the tarmac, but it is something that might have some potential. Again, I just wanted to mention that.

MR. CARSON: Without knowing the facts, I'd suggest that most of the people who are sitting watching the planes are local Nova Scotians not our visitors. That tends to happen around every airport. It may be something you could take up with the Halifax International Airport Authority, in terms of creating an observation point.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, maybe, yes. I'll just close by saying that on the weekend of October 15^th in the beautiful Upper Stewiacke Valley at Deer Country Hideaway there's a Pumpkin Music Idol contest. I do have forms if anybody is interested in competing. We have three judges who will be presiding over the event for two days. It's a Saturday and a Sunday. I'm not sure exactly what the grand prize is, but it will be something to do with the harvest season, so check your schedules.

[Page 29]

MR. CARSON: In the hour and a half I've been sitting here this morning I've heard so many advertising messages, I think you guys should be working for the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage. (Laughter)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Now we'll move along to the member for Annapolis.

MR. MCNEIL: I'm just wondering, around the 400^th Anniversary of Annapolis Royal - as you know, on the weekend of July 15^th and 16^th, the Prime Minister was in the community. They made the announcement early in the Spring that the federal government had contributed $247,000, a capital cultural grant, towards the community that needed matching funding. It just so happened that the weekend the Prime Minister was in town, the province put out a press release suggesting that it had contributed $225,000 for the development, marketing and promotion of that event. I'm wondering if you could somehow give us a breakdown, an explanation around that?

MS. DEAN: You're right, we did say that the department invested approximately $250,000 to support planning, development and promotion of Port Royal. That did happen over a period of time, between 2001 to 2005. There are a number of specific projects contributing towards the re-enactment, or towards that 400^th Anniversary, that the department was involved in. I can provide you with that information.

MR. MCNEIL: That would be great. I also saw, shortly thereafter, a press release that came out from the province promoting the 50^th Anniversary of the Canso Causeway for $150,000, I believe, for a seven-day period. Do you understand the frustration for the people of Annapolis Royal, and really the province? It should be almost an embarrassment for us, quite frankly. Not only is Annapolis Royal the birthplace of Nova Scotia, it's the birthplace of the country. It's where the coming together of the cultures that make up multicultural Canada happened. As a matter of fact I believe I have an announcement from Tourism, Culture and Heritage for $20,000, going to be given to Annapolis Royal to help offset the share of that $247,000 that the municipality needed to come up with. Did we not miss the boat? Tourism numbers are down. This should have been a boom year. This is the birthplace of the country.

MR. CARSON: Still, 85 per cent of our visitors actually come from within this country. They're still the strongest portion of our visitors.

MR. MCNEIL: Four hundred years ago, where did they come from? There's no way to cut it. It's an embarrassment. We spent $150,000 to celebrate the Canso Causeway's 50^th Anniversary.

MR. CARSON: I'm not arguing with you.

[Page 30]

MR. MCNEIL: Junior spoke earlier about the postcard of Peggys Cove and the whale breaching, which is basically propaganda, it's barely factual. We're sitting here talking - I mentioned earlier about the 8 per cent increase in tourism revenue, which quite frankly means you pick the best and the worst year out of the last five years, it does not represent the true picture. We're now talking about $150,000 to celebrate a week on the Canso Causeway. We ignored the 400^th Anniversary. We send out a press release that says we put $225,000 in that celebration, when in actual fact it was over a five-year period. How can anybody believe what comes out of the department?

MS. DEAN: Interesting question. I think that the commitment of the province towards the 400^th Anniversary was made clear, and that it was a significant commitment. I think that the statistics that we report are valid, they're transparent, and we report them on a monthly basis, on a regular basis. The information that is reported on volume, on visitation numbers is there for everybody to see, to make comparisons year to year, over five-year periods, even if you want to go over 10-year periods. I believe the department is doing what it can to be completely transparent.

[10:30 a.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: That concludes this round, thank you.

The honourable member for Dartmouth East.

MS. MASSEY: I'd just like to go back and talk a bit about the fact that in Nova Scotia I believe we have somewhere around 72 tourism bureaus and, for example, P.E.I. has 12. I'm not sure if those facts are correct. I have to say, I'm new to this critic area, which when I first heard Tourism, Culture and Heritage, I thought this was going to be a simple fly through. I cannot believe that this is such a complicated, huge critic area and that it has such an impact on Nova Scotia. I've lived here my whole life, I've enjoyed every inch of this province, and it really riles me when I see that we're doing things in this province that are not helping us in our road to bring tourism back to where I think it should be. I agree it's one of the number one things that we have here in Nova Scotia.

Going back to how many tourist bureaus we have and I know you were saying in your information that more and more people are planning and booking their vacations on-line, so more people are doing that. We have a lot of tourism bureaus. We have people going on-line - and I do it when I travel - going into the chat rooms and find out what people are complaining about. So when honourable members opposite say we're the voice of doom over here, I don't feel that way. I'm saying we can't hide any longer behind our problems because people out there are talking, they get on the Internet, they research their vacations, they're smart, they're looking for the best deal for their money.

[Page 31]

Tourism is a highly competitive field right now, the world is open to everybody. We have to fight for our tourism dollars, so I don't feel that what I'm doing is being the voice of doom. I'm just saying we have our problems with our roads, we have some problems that maybe we can't control, but we have to look at ways to get around those.

Mr. Carson, you did say in your information that a major change in the industry is the Internet, it's something that we're going to have to deal with. I just hope that our honourable member opposite is taking his good ideas about development for tourism to his PC caucus colleagues around the table. They're the people who are going to be the driving force behind what's going to happen in Nova Scotia.

Certainly, it's a beautiful province to visit, we have some wonderful things, but when I go to Upper Clements Park and I only have to wait in the lineup for maybe two minutes to get on a roller coaster, that's bad - good for me, bad sign that there are no lines at Upper Clements Park. It's a beautiful place, it needs more maintenance and what have you. They have things that I'm sure they'll be coming to government looking for some funding on. There's a wonderful wildlife park there that is just a jewel. If people are not travelling to these places because of other issues, whether it's roads or gas prices or what have you, because they have their big RVs and they don't want to fall into one of our potholes and never be seen again, then we have to address those issues.

Maybe a survey at these tourist bureaus that say when you were here, how have certain things impacted you and are you going to come back? Maybe, instead of a 10-page survey it needs to be something short and to the point. We have to work with what is out there, with communications, and get on this Internet bandwagon. I want to say I'm not here as the voice of doom, but I'm trying to figure out what's going on in the tourism industry and try to therefore be able to come up with some sort of solutions, from my point of view.

MR. CARSON: Those are some good points. One of the wonderful things about the Internet, of course, is that it levels the playing field, everybody can get themselves as much exposure as everybody else, if they know what they're doing with the medium. It's a challenge obviously for everybody to position their own product up there and in the face of the consumer, but it can be done these days.

[10:35 a.m. Mr. Wayne Gaudet took the Chair.]

MS. DEAN: I think another point is that every four years we do a comprehensive visitor exit survey to capture exactly what visitors did when they were here, what their experiences were, the kinds of things that motivated them to come here and the 2004 one, we're closing in on the results of that fairly soon. Certainly, if you would be interested in that kind of thing, we'd be happy to brief you and let you know what we're finding out.

[Page 32]

MS. MASSEY: I'd love to see the survey. When I was at the Nova Scotia roads symposium - that was a few days ago - there was a bit of talk about the survey and I was just wondering what exactly is on that, so we'd like to see that, it would be great, thanks.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Kings North.

MR. PARENT: I hadn't heard of my colleague's proverb, it's a poor crow that blackens its own nest, but it's rather apt I marry it with the proverb, it's a poor dog that's not worth whistling for. I want to apply that to your comments about the environment and the importance of putting stress on the environment, and the fact that the tourism industry does stress the environment. I want to commend you on that and the challenge to other industries and to challenge the province. I really think that the environment can be a central focus for Nova Scotia in many different ways, and something that has ties to agriculture and the sale of agricultural goods here, it has ties to many different things, so I really want to commend you on that.

I think along with the environment, the quality of life that we enjoy is one that I think goes hand in hand with the environment and makes the province attractive. I was a little surprised that again, you throw in the need to shop seven days a week. I find it hard to think that anyone coming to Nova Scotia would need to buy a refrigerator on the seventh day of the week, but perhaps you think differently.

Having said that, I want to come to my question. My question is one that has been raised by the tourism council in my own area, Annapolis Valley, and that's the surcharge that was put on here in Halifax that's supposed to market Halifax as a destination. I guess if TIANS put out a paper indicating perhaps maybe there should be some sort of standardization of this, because Lunenburg was looking at one and other areas were looking at one. Our area, in the Annapolis Valley, sees that as simply an added tax that's passed on to the tourist who is already paying enough taxes, they feel, and to the tourism operators who are already paying enough taxes. I'm wondering what the status of that is and where that's going.

MR. CARSON: The status of the marketing levy?

MR. PARENT: Yes.

MR. CARSON: As you know there is a marketing levy in place, as you've said, in Halifax and other jurisdictions have indicated or expressed an interest in developing one of their own. The marketing levy is very contingent upon the province enabling legislation, so it's really up to government to determine whether or not anybody else is going to be able to introduce a marketing levy. At this time it's under consideration, I would suggest, it's being looked at. Our point of view in TIANS is that these marketing levies are an evil necessity at the moment in some areas. We need to provide additional funding for marketing support.

[Page 33]

Certainly, in the City of Halifax, we needed those extra dollars because the marketing dollars were declining. We have said that there should be certain criteria in place, in terms of marketing levies, absolutely and the first one, the essential one is that everybody in the industry agrees and supports it, that's the first step.

MR. PARENT: My operators are saying we pay enough taxes anyway, the province should be marketing that.

MR. CARSON: They would never be forced.

MR. PARENT: So they're not going to be forced to have it . . .

MR. CARSON: I wouldn't have thought so.

MR. PARENT: Ms. Dean, do you have any comments on behalf of the department in regard to this marketing levy?

MS. DEAN: Well, certainly the individual municipalities can bring forth a private member's bill in order to have a levy put forward and different municipalities have tried to do that, some with success. Halifax has been the one that has been, I guess, the model. Other municipalities have been interested in it, definitely. I think one of the keys is to ensure that the industry is onside, and that was certainly one of the key points that was made when Halifax was brought on board and the industry was fully onside in that area for the levy. At this point, I don't think there is . . .

MR. CARSON: An appetite for it, literally.

MR. PARENT: Well, that's good news because the industry is not onside in the Annapolis Valley, at least ETTA, who have spoken to me, the board members of the Evangeline Trail Tourism Association, because they feel that that is something the province should be doing and they shouldn't be taxing them to do something that we should be doing. Whether we are doing it enough, both my colleagues from across the floor have raised some important points, I think, about the need to focus on the Annapolis Valley. When you look at the tourism stats, the only area that is down as much as the Valley in terms of tourism visits is the Fundy Shore and that's an alarm to all of us who are MLAs for the Annapolis Valley area. I just want to add my voice to them, encouraging the department to, in their marketing, not forget the Annapolis Valley and some of the challenges we have with the ferry cancellation.

MS. DEAN: As well, we do provide additional funding for destination marketing with regional tourism industry associations so that they can do the kind of thing that you are talking about, which is what the levy is designed to help do.

[Page 34]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The member for Halifax Chebucto.

MR. EPSTEIN: I just have two quick points for you. One is the goal of the long-term marketing plan to double tourism revenue by 2012. The goal is stated as being 100 per cent tourism revenue growth. That's a doubling and it seems as if the base must be 2004, which is the year in which the revenues were $1.3 billion because you're talking about going to $2.6 billion. So it must be 2004. The problem is, that is eight years and what that means (Interruptions) So that's eight years. That means that you are projecting a 9 per cent increase per year. That's already a very ambitious target to try to reach. Instinct tends to be a bit against that and I want to add my voice to those who say that this looks as if it has been a fairly slow tourism season this year. I had occasion to be out of metro and in parts of the province, particularly the Annapolis Valley and the South Shore and Yarmouth on a couple of occasions in the Summer, once in July when I went down for a wedding and another time just pure vacation with my own family. I have to say, things were pretty quiet.

In July, I was in Annapolis Royal on a Saturday and it was completely dead. There was nothing going on there. Nothing. There was nobody else there. It was just extremely and disappointingly quiet, which it shouldn't have been. I have no idea why. The whole of the South Shore, as well, seemed pretty quiet. Yarmouth, itself, when I was there, seemed bustling but it was just kind of obviously a slow tourist season the times I was there. So I think the 100 per cent increase or doubling in eight years is a highly ambitious target that is not aided by what is, I think, going to turn out to be a fairly slow season this year.

So that is my first point to you. Those are my own observations about that. The second point, though, has to do with an item that I think gets discussed with some regularity, but nothing much seems to happen about it, and that has to do with roadside rest stops. I think the department must owe a lot of thanks to Tim Hortons which has stepped in to kind of fill this function. As people travel by car, if they want to stop to use the washroom or they need to wash their faces or they want a drink of water or they want to change the baby or anything along those lines, there is nothing out there that is publicly provided, virtually nothing. Certainly we don't have the kind of rest stops that other provinces seem to provide for the roadside traveller.

[10:45 a.m.]

I have no idea why this is. It's a huge inconvenience. I think it's a big drawback when it comes to road travel which is, still, I think, a pretty common way to get around, whether they are in a car or on a motorcycle or on a bike, they need a place to stop. We just, for whatever reason, don't seem to have ever taken the time and money to invest in building these things. So what people end up doing, of course, is they go to Tim Hortons or they go to a garage where they might fill up with gasoline or so on and to a certain extent, those places seem to be prepared to accommodate people dropping in, but they aren't always there

[Page 35]

with the frequency that they might be. There are certain parts of the road system in the province that could certainly be supplemented by public facilities of this sort.

So I would ask you, if this is not in your direct line of responsibility, to raise it with your colleagues in the Department of Transportation and Public Works because I was certainly struck by that again this Summer, as I am every time I travel around in this province, that this is a problem. Thanks.

[10:46 a.m. Mr. Brooke Taylor resumed the Chair.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Pictou West.

MR. PARKER: Mr. Chairman, I have a concern I want to pass along and then maybe a comment or a question. The Pictou County Tourist Association is quite concerned about the lack of funding, I guess, for festivals. It just so happens that in Pictou County we do have a lot of festivals, probably more per capita than most areas but we have, as I mentioned, the New Scotland Days, the Hector Festival, the Pictou Lobster Carnival, Festival of the Tartans, Homecoming Days. There are a good number of festivals in the various Pictou County towns and rural areas throughout the summer months. They received somewhere around $7,000 in funding this year for all those festivals spread over 10 or 20 different events. So it didn't amount to a whole lot per festival.

I just want to pass that along that it's a concern. They feel they are underfunded, maybe because there are so many of them, they are not getting very much each. I just wanted Ms. Dean to pass that along as a concern from the Pictou County Tourist Association.

Secondly, I noticed in the flyer here somewhere, your information that 9 per cent of visitors are coming to Nova Scotia because they are birders. They are interested in watching wild birds and I guess being a birder in my family, we have a keen interest in that hobby. I think more and more people are coming to Nova Scotia for that reason and I just want to know what, perhaps, the department or TIANS is doing perhaps to promote visitors to our province who are interested in that hobby. I did note last March, I do believe, there was a festival organized in Barrington, around the Brant Festival, I think they called it, a species there. We have sort of a unique position here on the Atlantic flyway with a lot of migrating birds that are coming here at different seasons of the year and I think it has real potential for bringing more people to our province.

Other areas of North America certainly have done a lot of work in promoting their avian species and visitors that come with them. Are you looking at other areas of the continent or of the world that perhaps promote the birding industry to visitors in their areas?

[Page 36]

MS. DEAN: Certainly birding is identified in the plan as a niche market and one that holds a lot of promise for Nova Scotia and we are working with communities where it is prevalent to promote some of the events around birding. So you are right in your assessment that it is something that is growing and something that the province is aware of and that we are actively working on. There is lots of potential there for visitation.

MR. PARKER: I notice in particular, like the Long Point Bird Observatory in Ontario, they do a lot of promotion to get people to come there because it is an important flyway or important migration route. So it attracts people in the Spring and the Fall in particular. In certain areas of Texas and Arizona and so on that are, again, on the flyway, they really promote that business as being vital to their tourism industry and I think there is a lot that we could learn from them, you know, that could be incorporated here in our province. So I just pass that along and hopefully it will continue to be promoted. Perhaps I'll ask TIANS if there's any . . .

MR. CARSON: In talking to birders, I have found that a lot of them are very knowledgeable about the subject. They do all their research. They know more about Nova Scotia and its birding than we do. It just goes back to my point about all the various niches that we're becoming known for, and birding is just one of them. There are many such niches. It becomes very difficult to apportion our marketing dollars adequately to every single niche that's out there. The department's job is mainly to promote the province as a destination outside Nova Scotia, that's their main focus. (Interruptions) And all those niche markets, they do product development.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Charlie. I would never accuse you of having a fowl mouth. (Laughter)

The honourable member for Clare.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I want to go back to the airport. On August 4^th, when Ms. Dean appeared before this committee, we heard that the province was looking at sending letters to passengers who were stranded at the airport back in early July. Last week the committee was told by representatives from the Halifax International Airport Authority that they had heard from approximately 1,200 passengers who called or wrote. Our committee was also told that the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage has not asked for the names of these passengers who contacted them in order to do damage control. My question is simply, why not? Why haven't we contacted the Authority seeking those names?

MS. DEAN: It's my understanding that the Airport Authority apologized and wrote letters on their own to those 1,200 passengers, and that they had adequately dealt with their complaints or their concerns.

[Page 37]

MR. GAUDET: I had understood at the August 4^th meeting that the province was going to try to reach out to those passengers who were stranded, to do some damage control. Am I right to assume that?

MS. DEAN: Yes, we agreed to write to the airlines to see if we could get a message through the airlines.

MR. GAUDET: So we were told last week at this committee that the Airport Authority had received somewhere around 1,200 complaints from passengers. Now, the fact is that there is a list available, a partial list is available, why isn't the department seeking those names in order to contact those individuals?

MS. DEAN: Well, it's very interesting. I didn't know that those names were available to the department. I will follow up with Eleanor Humphries. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'd like to thank our guests and committee members for the meeting this morning. Would anyone with your group like to make a summary comment?

MS. DEAN: How much time do we have?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Approximately one minute.

MR. CARSON: I'll just go for one minute, and I will just say, let us not forget the big picture. Tourism is a major industry in this province, and it's a very stable industry in this province. It's also one that is bound, guaranteed to grow in the long run. If you just imagine the number of people who live in those great big urban jungles within two hours' flying time from this beautiful province that we're in, it isn't going to take much to attract them. We just have to get to them and give them our message, and open ourselves 365 days a year to them, and we will get more tourism business to Nova Scotia. It's a great business and provides tremendous opportunities for all of us here in Nova Scotia.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Again, thank you to everybody for coming in. Our next meeting date is October 4^th, with representatives from the Office of Economic Development and NSBI, regarding industrial business parks. It will be held at the Committees Office.

[The committee adjourned at 10:54 a.m.]