HANSARD
NOVA SCOTIA HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
PARTICIPATION IN THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS
Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services
SELECT COMMITTEE
ON
PARTICIPATION IN THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS
Mr. Michel Samson (Chairman)
Hon. Mark Parent (Vice-Chairman)
Mr. James Muir
Mr. Keith Bain
Ms. Maureen MacDonald (Vice-Chair)
Mr. Graham Steele
Mr. Charles Parker
Mr. David Wilson (Glace Bay)
Mr. Harold Theriault
In Attendance:
Ms. Kim Leadley
Legislative Committee Clerk
Ms. Sherri Mitchell
Legislative Committee Clerk
WITNESSES
Nova Scotia Teachers Union
Mr. David Harris, Provincial Executive
Mr. Paul McCormick, Communications Officer
[Page 1]
HALIFAX, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 2009
SELECT COMMITTEE
ON
PARTICIPATION IN THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS
9:00 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Michel Samson
MR. CHAIRMAN: Good morning and welcome to our meeting this morning of the Select Committee on Participation in the Democratic Process. My name is Michel Samson, I'm the MLA for Richmond and I'm the chairman of this committee.
Before we begin, if I could ask the members who are here to introduce themselves for the record and for our witnesses.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: We also have with us representatives from some of the supporting organizations that have been working with us, including Elections Nova Scotia, the Legislative Library and Communications Nova Scotia.
As you are aware, this committee was formed as a result of all-Party support of a resolution in the House to explore ways as to why Nova Scotians of all ages were participating less and less in elections in Nova Scotia. Our committee has been mandated to try to come up with recommendations and possible solutions as to how we might change that trend.
As I'm sure you're aware, part of our public consultation, a great deal of discussion took place on education in our province and specifically on the question of how much education the youth of Nova Scotia are receiving in the classroom when it comes to issues of democracy and voter participation.
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We previously received a presentation from the Department of Education, which hopefully you've had a chance to review. As part of that we wanted to give the opportunity to the Nova Scotia Teachers Union to give us their views on what is currently being done and, as well, any possible recommendations on changes that could be implemented.
This morning I would invite you to make your presentation and following your presentation, committee members will more than likely have some questions to put to you as a result of that. If you wish to introduce yourselves for the record, then the floor is yours.
MR. DAVID HARRIS: Thank you. First, through the chairman, I'd like to thank the committee for inviting us here to present this morning. My name is David Harris, I am the Provincial Executive Member for Halifax City - one of two. With me is Paul McCormick, the Public Relations Officer at the NSTU.
I'd like to convey the regrets of our President, Alexis Allen, for not being able to attend today. Ms. Allen has been called away to attend meetings with the conciliation officer, in an attempt to reach a tentative agreement for the members of the Province of Nova Scotia, so I'm going to attempt to do justice to her presentation.
In 1996, former European Commission President Jacques Delors authored a UNESCO report on education for the 21st Century. In it, he presented a framework that rests on four pillars of learning:
"Learning to Know" which involves the development of skills and knowledge needed to function in the world. These skills include literacy, numeracy, critical thinking and general knowledge;
"Learning to Do" which refers to the acquisition of applied skills often linked to occupational success, such as computer training, managerial training and apprenticeships;
The third "Learning to Be" which refers to learning that contributes to the development of a person's body, mind and spirit. Skills in this area include creativity, personal discovery, and an appreciation of media, culture and physical activity; and
Finally, and probably most important to our needs "Learning to Live Together" which involves developing values of respect and concern for others, fostering social and interpersonal skills, and an appreciation of the diversity found in our communities.
[Page 3]
I decided to begin the presentation by noting these four pillars and summarize the purpose of education and perhaps can shed some light on how public education might address concerns that Nova Scotia youth are struggling with understanding government systems, the legislative process, the voting process and everything that goes along with it.
For myself, I am a 13-year high school history teacher, so it's a question that I ponder - how I get my students to think about these issues as well.
Now, you referenced Ms. Blackwood's report and as she outlined, we have a fairly prescriptive set of requirements for high school graduation in Nova Scotia. In order to graduate, a student needs 18 credits between Grade 10 and Grade 12 and of these 18 courses, 13 - 14 if you're a French immersion student - are compulsory credits. These include three language arts credits, two math credits and two science credits. These would fall under that category of "Learning to Know".
We have two more credits, which must be from math, science or technology. These include communications, information, production and other technologies, computer-related studies, film and video, and other courses that address the concept of "Learning to Do".
One credit must be in physical education, formerly known as physically active lifestyles, and career and life management. One credit must be in fine arts such as drama, music or dance.
Finally, we have one Canadian history credit and one global studies credit. These two courses fill the sum total of the requirement for basically "Learning to Live Together".
Once a required course has been scheduled, high school students may then decide on which of the four or five electives interest them and are available within their schedule, are recommended if they plan on pursuing higher education or a career, and in many cases are even available within their school. Students who plan to attend university face a lot of pressure from parents and guidance counsellors to take additional science, math and technology courses. These traditionally are the gateways to the careers that offer the most employment, the highest pay levels and the greatest mobility.
With the greatest respect to the honourable members in the room, the pressure on our students to learn about our political system is hardly overwhelming.
Recently, the Department of Education announced its intention to allow external credentialing for high school students in the electives that they choose to take. Nova Scotia high school students may soon be eligible to earn academic credit for successfully learning a new language, developing skills to save lives, or by becoming a better citizen through a leadership program. The effect of external credentialing can only be that some social studies
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electives will not be taken because some students will use an external credit such as lifeguard training instead of taking a social studies course on the structure of Canadian politics.
On my own personal note, I've seen within the high school that I teach at, a demise in the Grade 10 social studies program as a result of other changes within the mandatory credit system.
[9:15 a.m.]
There has been much discussion within this committee about whether or not civics - or as we prefer to call it "citizenship" - is present in the high school curriculum. Certainly Canadian history looks closely at democracy and government and builds on essential learning outcomes covered in junior high social studies - that is, the study of local government in Grade 7, provincial government in Grade 8 and federal government in Grade 9. In some ways this has backfired on us in that when students have that choice in Grade 11 as to the Canadian history credit they choose, many don't take it because they either (a) feel they know everything about Canadian history or (b) they need a change and need to do something else.
To some extent, high school social studies presents a paradox. Required courses are both too narrow and too broad to effectively address citizenship. In my experience, the majority of high school students do not take Canadian history itself as their history credit. Canadian history is highly academic and requires a thesis, it's a very demanding course. Given the choice - and students are given that choice - most opt for African Canadian studies, Acadian history, Gaelic studies or Mi'kmaq studies. Within the narrow scope of each of these courses, students may learn about traditional forms of government but not about our modern parliamentary system.
At the other end of the spectrum is our global history and global geography. Global studies are critical courses in our shrinking world, but they certainly do not address our system of government.
In other ways, recent policy changes in the last few years have also sent a mixed message to our students. We no longer place value on what we would consider citizenship. In days that you would remember, the classroom mark or the class mark - in the final years that I had it, it was called positive participation and presence - are no longer part of our assessment scheme under the new assessment policy.
I believe there's a crucial question that we as educators often ask our students - how do we get to a point where we believe our opinion matters? This is important because it lies at the crux of the question of engagement.
[Page 5]
It seems to the adult world that so much of the activity that occupies the youth in our post-modern era has more to do with escape than engagement. So much that engages them seems incomprehensible to the adult world. Members of the millennial generation engage with each other using tools and systems that did not exist in the world of our own teenage years - Facebook, text messaging, Web 2.0. Students are using these forms of communication as a way of creating community. It may not be the community as we think of it, but they are in fact quickly constructing their own rules of citizenry.
The millenials, if they think about the education or political system, probably view both with suspicion, as threats to their community, ready to ban rather than embrace their means of engagement with follow citizens. Recent elections to the south have shown that it is possible to engage millenials. Also, recent problems in Ottawa have shown we can stir up interest in students, but we don't want to recommend a further constitutional crisis in order to do that.
Students are very engaged in community. The difference might lie in how the term "community" is understood and in examining issues of relevance.
Let me start by saying that students do vote. Not only do they vote, they vote in surprising numbers to adults, but they vote for things that perhaps we don't see as part of the democratic process - things like Canadian Idol or So You Think You Can Dance. Perhaps this is an extreme example but my point is that in order to engage Nova Scotia youth, government has to be relevant to their interests, to their daily lives and to their community.
Our students live in a world of instant gratification. They believe in eBay, text messaging, e-mail, they rely on instant communication. So is it reasonable to expect that they might willingly stand in line for 30 minutes to vote?
I will leave it to you to consider whether a legislative body that meets for 39 days a year is particularly relevant to youth or whether the inappropriate accusations hurled during Question Period from time to time, in any Legislative Assembly, represent the best selling point of the parliamentary system.
Let's face it - the issue here is not solely how to engage young voters. The issue is how to re-engage society as a whole in the political system that is cynically viewed by media observers and, perhaps unfairly, also by many members of the public it serves. The challenge is to overcome apathy. Until students encounter the politician as a role model, that is unlikely to change. In recent discussions with students, when I asked them about voting, the surprising answer I received was, why vote, my parents don't vote. So it is a larger issue than just in the classroom.
[Page 6]
In terms of curriculum specifics, I think Ms. Blackwood has painted a very thorough picture of what students are learning in our province's schools. She is also correct in saying:
"The last thing we would support is asking more of teachers at this time and asking more of schools at this time."
As I pointed out at the beginning of the presentation, the timetables of high school students are extremely crowded with required courses. Ms. Blackwood makes a valid point when she states:
"One of the things that causes students to become disengaged with schools is that they figure they don't have much room for decision making, they don't have much choice - they're pretty well told what to take, where to go, and they don't have a whole lot of room in their timetables to choose what they will take from among the electives."
Despite this, there are many examples in our schools that demonstrate that many students, despite the challenges, are engaging in "Learning to Live Together". These include campaigns in support of Feed the Children, the 30-Hour Famine, environmental action, recycling, Feed Nova Scotia food drives, volunteering in nursing homes, writing letters to the editor on issues affecting them, and student council elections.
It's very unusual to visit a high school and not see posters advertising the benefits of electing one student council candidate over another. Student debate clubs are still very active in Nova Scotia and our teams perform well on the national scene.
There are mock parliaments held across the province - many of them invite local MLAs to serve as Speakers. We bring councillors into our classrooms. We invite MPs and MLAs to address student assemblies. We hold mock elections, including the recent Student Vote program that coincided with municipal and school board elections.
So what is the Nova Scotia Teachers Union doing? The NSTU has played an active role in public affairs since its inception some 113 years ago. You need only look at the composition of any Legislature in the 20th Century - including this one - to see that teachers are one of the most prominent professions represented in this House. By my count, in the last provincial election, 12 active or retired teachers were elected as MLAs. By comparison, seven lawyers, eight business people, two fishers, two farmers, two paramedics - but there are no doctors in the House - four former school board members, a policeman and a fire chief were also elected.
The NSTU is a non-partisan organization. We encourage our members to be active with the Party of their choice. We encourage open dialogue between our members and their MLAs.
[Page 7]
We actively lobbied for fully-elected school boards for many years and believe, by and large, that students and the public are well served by elected school board members. This is why we joined with our education partners, including the School Boards Association, the Department of Education, the education administrators association, and the provincial home and school association, to develop strategies to attract qualified candidates and encourage the public to vote in this year's school board elections.
This committee of partners developed a communications plan, ran a series of seven ads in newspapers throughout the province, sponsored an ad on cable television, produced three posters for polling stations, developed a school board elections kit for prospective candidates, and conducted public opinion polls about Nova Scotians' attitudes towards the role of school boards in our province. Although we applied for funding from Democracy 250, our request was turned down.
The Nova Scotia Teachers Union was a proud sponsor of Student Vote. We contacted superintendents of schools and encouraged them to support this initiative in their regions. Student Vote is a national, non-partisan organization that coordinated its first parallel municipal election program during the Nova Scotia municipal and school board elections held October 18th. The Student Vote Nova Scotia project was offered to elementary, junior high and high school students in partnership with Democracy 250. More than 11,000 students participated in this mock election.
My union at heart is a democratic organization. Each Victoria Day weekend, more than 400 teachers gather in Halifax for three days to participate in their annual council. This is the top policy-making body of the NSTU. Each year, delegates openly debate as many as 100 resolutions, dealing with everything from curriculum to issues facing society as a whole. We've now entered into a partnership with St. Francis Xavier University's school of education where each year education students participate in what has become a very popular mock annual council. We believe this is one way to keep our own democratic process alive and healthy well into the future.
I truly believe that the NSTU is a learning organization. As a rep, by virtue of the universal vote of our local membership - and members of this committee might note that both our original presidential election and all of our provincial executive elections have been done by secure, Web-based electronic voting.
As teachers, we stare the future directly in the face every day and we remain hopeful. I thank you.
[Page 8]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Harris, for your presentation. Committee members, are there any questions to put to Mr. Harris? Mr. Steele.
MR. GRAHAM STEELE: Thanks very much for coming in today. The main question before us in relation to the education system is whether to recommend having a civics course. The somewhat debatable premise being that part of the reason for the drop in voter turnout is that people just don't understand enough about the system of government.
The presentation talks around the question - it doesn't deal with it directly - would the Teachers Union support or oppose a proposal to have a mandatory civics course or citizenship component to social studies courses?
MR. HARRIS: Well, I'm going to defer to Paul. My view would be that given the type and nature of the current courses that are mandatory, we would not.
MR. PAUL MCCORMICK: I think it's safe to say that the attitude of the union would probably be that if something is going to be added, something has to be removed. As Mr. Harris outlined in the presentation, students already only have four electives that they can effectively choose from. If you narrow that even more, we're going to be putting a lot of stress on the education system and probably a lot of stress on the students too. So I would think that the union would probably not favourably view more compulsory courses at the high school level.
MR. STEELE: The other aspect of this, and of course your presentation is very polite, which is lovely, it doesn't quite come out and say it but I almost get the impression that what the union wants us to take from this is that having a mandatory citizenship course would be pointless anyway because it's not really getting at the root of the problem. Want to comment on that?
MR. HARRIS: Again, it's a larger societal issue. My wife is also a teacher so when I found out that I was coming here, we had some discussions. Going back to what I said in the presentation, we need to take this back to make voting the rite of passage that it used to be. I could see it being more effective if we targeted families and start having families celebrating the fact that they've got young people who are now being brought into the democratic process and being given the opportunity, by virtue of age, of being allowed to vote.
When you have students saying, I don't vote because my parents don't vote, it's not because they don't understand that voting is part of our system or they don't know how to vote, it's again, they haven't attached that value to voting. We're seeing it in lots of areas. So many students these days don't go rushing out on their 16th birthday to get their driver's licence. Things have really changed from that perspective of what it means to go from being a young person to being an adult and I think it would be nice to focus on that.
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I don't see educating them more about the process making them more excited about the process, particularly if we don't address those other issues about, does my opinion count, and do I buy into the fact that these people are representing what I see when we talked about community. In the recent elections, you had a real attempt to meet students at their level at their community, on-line, text and so on. Those are the types of changes that really have to occur in order to engage the students.
[9:30 a.m.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Muir.
MR. JAMES MUIR: A couple of questions, observations. There was one thing back in the Canadian history course, the way it was described, it said it is highly academic and requires a thesis. I wonder if you could explain that to me, I was just kind of puzzled about that.
MR. HARRIS: I teach the course, actually, the Canadian history course. One of the curriculum outcomes for the course is that students will, by the end of the course, have done a research thesis on a topic of their choice. So part of the course's design is teaching them research skills.
It is difficult, given the scope and coverage of the course, but that is one of the requirements of the students in the course.
MR. MUIR: A couple other things - I'll get my thoughts together here - one of the things that always seems to be in the schools now is why citizenship isn't one of those important things. I think in some ways we've allowed the academics to take over the school and the idea of general education for young people has been buried a bit. There's no question about that in my mind, and I think maybe I might even have been part of that movement many years ago.
Anyway, these courses, the compulsory courses, they're all academic courses and universities, when a kid is preparing to go to university or going to community college or wherever they might go, to a private career college, citizenship is not one of the things that gets them in there. So in the public school, the school itself, at least the ones with which I'm familiar, that's not a big part of the school culture. So I think the school culture itself has to change. For example, you mentioned back earlier, Mr. Harris, that sometimes people invite politicians into classes. There are a lot of people who don't invite politicians into classes and that's sort of a cultural thing.
There are some schools, for example, that I know they don't want politicians in the schools - not that they see politicians as being bad. They don't want to have a Tory politician or an NDP politician or a Liberal politician or a Conservative politician in because it seems
[Page 10]
as though, rather than taking somebody as a politician, they're not a politician, they're a Tory, a New Democrat, or a Conservative, or a Grit, that it's a different thing. Is that a fair observation?
MR. HARRIS: Again, I have to speak from my own experience in that I run my school's Model Parliament program. I know when I did it I sent out feelers to every political Party in the province inviting people in. Sometimes you're more successful at election time than you are at any other time of the year.
Your concern about community and it not being seen as a requirement is very valid and we're really seeing culture change in schools. In some ways it's as a result of perhaps the direction the committee has in that we're trying to put more into the classroom. Things that used to happen in schools that were very important in building community, we're really no longer permitted to do. Those things during school time we're very much now of the direction that it is time on task and things that don't particularly fit in with the curriculum models of the course you're teaching, you're not encouraged to do, the things that used to bring kids together to promote citizenship - fashion shows and things like that.
Last year my Model Parliament was cancelled because kids are so busy and you have to do it outside of class time. When you've got students working 30 hours a week on top of going to school, I couldn't get a commitment from 40 kids in a high school to do the amount of work that they needed to do. It's saddening a lot of educators that we're not allowed to create community anymore. I mean we try to engage students as teachers in the classroom, but sometimes you would like to do it more as a school, and that has had a big effect on that idea, again, of community and why students disengage a little bit and engage more in their idea of community.
MR. MUIR: Just one last comment. The things that are priorities to young people, I think when more people voted there were less things to occupy space in a day. Politics was important, maybe in our view a bit important in a way that is probably not acceptable these days, but certainly that has changed. Anyway, it's a tough one. I'm not sure we're going to solve this by putting a course of citizenship in the schools.
MR. HARRIS: I just thought I'd leave you with this. We've recently had Democracy 250, the advent of representative government in Nova Scotia. That's not in our history textbook - I see some shocked faces here. We do emphasize responsible government, but I just thought it was interesting - I was going through the book one day and thought, that's not in there.
MR. MUIR: They probably didn't know about it when the book came out.
[Page 11]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Muir. Mr. Theriault.
MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: Thank you, it was a wonderful presentation - it got me thinking about my children anyway, that's for sure. One thing you touched on, Mr. Harris, and it touched me too, children ask you what is the value in voting. Is there anything in school that children learn about living in a democratic society versus a dictatorship in other countries? Do they know the difference? Is anything like that taught to children?
MR. HARRIS: I can't guarantee they know the difference. Do we attempt to teach that? Yes. In fact, if I go even to my global studies course that I'll be returning to this afternoon, that's one of the first things we start to look at, what is your ideal form of society. Then we start to look at, wow, you're leaning toward this way or you're leaning toward that way, and then we teach them that this is fascism, this is democracy and so on - or we try to teach them. We do show them that many of the things that bother them on a daily basis, they're very lucky to be able to be bothered by those things by the nature of the society that they live in. Is the social studies program necessarily a complete celebration of those elements? No. Are they covered in there? Yes.
We're as critical as celebratory in our history courses as anything, which I think is important as well, but I think a big change - when I was talking to my students for the first time yesterday of my new semester, I was saying - when I look at the differences in what we're taught in school compared to 20 years ago during the Cold War, we're getting less into, this is what I want you to know and we're giving more in the way of choice to students - what do you think, why do you think that? I said to my students yesterday, this is not a what room, this is a why room. You have lots of beliefs, why do you believe those things and that's what they need to understand.
So we're talking about democracy and when we're talking about past rebellions and struggles, we do like them to see that something positive came out of those things and that's where their society today has come from.
MR. THERIAULT: I think the leadership of not only this country or the United States, but the whole world, people are looking for something better. We saw in the United States in November that people will come out and vote if they are given some sort of better hope than they have right now. Do you think the children are losing hope in the democratic system?
MR. HARRIS: Not necessarily. I think sometimes they need to see more examples of it. Personally I look at the election to the south as vindication of some of the ideals we've been teaching students over the last 20 years, that we are an equal society and everyone has an equal chance. Unfortunately we don't see that very often in some positions of leadership and power. Maybe when Nova Scotia has its first Native Premier or first female Premier or first African-Canadian Premier, we may see the same excitement happen in Nova Scotia.
[Page 12]
MR. THERIAULT: Something that has been kicked around this past year is the voting age. Now, you know children pretty good, you're with them day and night. Do you believe the age of 16 may be too young to vote?
MR. HARRIS: No, I don't. I know many - and I'm sure you hear this - people past the age of 18 who are too immature to vote and I see every day many students who are 16, 17 who I'd be perfectly happy and trust to vote. I frequently ask my students - we talk politics quite often in class - if you want to have a really interesting conversation with your parents, go home and not only ask them who they're voting for, but ask them why. I have some interesting comments from parents about the conversations they have with their kids, but here I'm trying to get kids to rationalize and explain why they believe things and maybe working backwards in society by getting their parents to do the same thing.
Most of the parents I talk to on parent-teacher night really enjoy those conversations, but I'd be perfectly happy because I think it would enfranchise a lot of young people who perhaps are eager to become part of the democratic process. Do we turn them off perhaps by not letting them do it when they're ready? That's a possibility, but I don't see 16 as being an unreasonable age.
MR. THERIAULT: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Theriault. Ms. MacDonald.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I want to ask you about student politics inside the schools. What is the state of student politics inside the schools in terms of elections for student council and that kind of stuff? What is the participation rate when there are student council elections? Does it reflect 100 per cent of the student body, or what does that look like?
MR. HARRIS: There are two issues there. I mean, whenever you're looking at student participation you get a certain type of student that tends to get involved, so right there you do exclude certain students in the school.
If you look at voting, having presided over polls for student council and for things like Model Parliament, we're partly limited by when we're able to do it. We tend to run elections, for example, at the school that I teach at - J.L. Ilsley here in Halifax - we run them at lunch hour. Even with a one-hour time frame, I'm usually looking at 50 per cent voter participation, at least, which I think if we compare it to having an all-day vote and no enticements, is fairly comparable to what we're getting in the real system.
[Page 13]
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: It's interesting that it kind of reflects, at a very early age, the state of the . . .
MR. HARRIS: It does.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Yes, okay, good. I was wondering about that, that's all.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. MacDonald. Mr. Harris, just a few questions. I know a lot of the focus has been on the high school component of education and what exposure students are getting. My curiosity is, and from my own experience of having spoken to students at the elementary level, especially anywhere from Grade 5 to Grade 8, it amazes me some of the questions that they'll come up with and some of the insights that they have.
I realize you've talked about the credit system involved in high school, I think it's obviously not the system used in the elementary side. So the question is, is there something we can be doing more on the elementary side of the educational component to expose students more to our system of government and how it works, rather than waiting until the high school level and all the challenges that they're already faced with, as you have pointed out? I'm curious what your thoughts would be as far as elementary school education.
MR. HARRIS: Well, the recent Student Vote program was particularly successful. I speak from a personal note, my daughter in Grade 3 was very happy to be involved in that program and my son in Grade 6, whose teacher didn't participate, was a little bit perturbed that he didn't get to vote, so that was positive.
[9:45 a.m.]
Just some notes here. We just received - was it yesterday? - we had 224 schools in 2008 participate in the program, compared to 105 in 2006; 20,255 Nova Scotia students participated in the federal Student Vote; 60 per cent of the students in registered Nova Scotia schools turned out to vote; 65 per cent of teachers who evaluated the program strongly agreed that students' knowledge of the electoral process increased; 55 per cent strongly agreed that the program strengthened the students' sense of civic duty; 56 per cent strongly agreed that the program led to political discussion with family and friends; 56 per cent strongly agreed that it heightened students' interest in politics and public policy; and 38 per cent of teachers strongly agreed and 58 per cent somewhat agreed that the program increased their confidence to teach politics and government.
So the program helped both the kids to become more involved, but also the teachers were supported by that program as well.
[Page 14]
MR. CHAIRMAN: It's a very interesting program which our committee has heard of and the fact that students are actually being given the opportunity to cast a ballot. We've heard examples of students, and even some that I went to school with, who ended up going through our whole school system without ever seeing what a ballot looked like, and all of a sudden voting has become an intimidating activity for them because of the fact that they don't understand how it works and are too embarrassed to ask how it works now.
I think it has been a very positive program, at least it exposes them to the whole concept of a ballot, the secrecy of the ballot and how the whole voting system takes place.
I guess my question would be, are there opportunities beyond that for us to expose our students on a year-to-year basis, rather than just whenever there's a municipal, provincial or federal election, that we can have a constant element in the elementary side that they're going to be exposed to, and maybe on numerous occasions throughout that elementary education, prior to arriving at high school?
MR. HARRIS: I suppose that's out of my area of expertise, unfortunately. I don't know, Mr. McCormick, if you have something. I don't know why it wouldn't be an element in the middle school program, in Grades 7, 8 and 9, where they're dealing with aspects of that, and perhaps even taking that program - I don't know if it would be appropriate to stage elections where there weren't elections going on, but I know kids regularly vote for lots of things in the lower elementary grades and so on. Just from a lesson-planning point of view, I suppose teachers could also be encouraged, even in courses like math, to perhaps build outcomes around that type of learning where they could hold a vote and then take the results to create mathematical problems and things like that. That's just me shooting from the hip.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I understand that and I appreciate it. Just for my own information, the credit system only starts in Grade 10?
MR. HARRIS: Correct.
MR. CHAIRMAN: So Grades 7 to 9 are still under the regular system?
MR. HARRIS: Yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? Mr. Harris and Mr. McCormick, I want to thank you again for appearing before us. I think you'll appreciate that our committee wanted to hear from the Teachers Union prior to making any of our recommendations, as we did with the Department of Education. I think it's safe to say that we see the Teachers Union and all teachers as partners in what we're trying to achieve here, and we certainly hope that we can work in the spirit of co-operation rather than in the spirit of confrontation in this.
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Again, from my own perspective, I understand some of the challenges from the Grades 10 to 12 years, but I see tremendous opportunities prior to that which I would hope you will be able to go back and speak to your president, that it certainly would be an element to be looked at. From your presentation there seems to be a focus on that whole Grade 10 to Grade 12 and the challenges that are faced there. I think many of the presentations we've received around the province said it's important to get to students prior to that, to give them an appreciation and understanding of our system.
I realize that you have a very busy schedule, so we do appreciate you coming in, and certainly your comments and suggestions will be taken into consideration by the committee as we prepare for our final report. I believe you are our final presenter, so we'll hopefully be completing our report in the very near future and look forward to working with you based on the recommendations that will come forward.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee members, we'll break for a minute and then we'll return to discuss the rest of our agenda.
[The committee adjourned at 9:50 a.m.]
