HANSARD
NOVA SCOTIA HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
PARTICIPATION IN THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS
Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services
SELECT COMMITTEE ON
PARTICIPATION IN THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS
Mr. Michel Samson (Chairman)
Hon. Mark Parent (Vice-Chairman)
Mr. Patrick Dunn
Mr. Keith Bain
Ms. Maureen MacDonald (Vice-Chair)
Mr. Graham Steele
Mr. Charles Parker
Mr. David Wilson (Glace Bay)
Mr. Harold Theriault
[Hon. Mark Parent was replaced by Hon. Christopher d'Entremont.]
[Mr. David Wilson (Glace Bay) was replaced by Mr. Wayne Gaudet.]
In Attendance:
Ms. Kim Leadley
Select Committee Clerk
Ms. Sherri Mitchell
Select Committee Clerk
Witnesses
Ms. Martha Cassidy
Ms. Donna Sullivan
[Page 1]
YARMOUTH, MONDAY, OCTOBER 27, 2008
SELECT COMMITTEE ON
PARTICIPATION IN THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS
7:00 P.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Michel Samson
MR. CHAIRMAN: Good evening and welcome to our public meeting tonight of the Select Committee on Participation in the Democratic Process. My name is Michel Samson, I'm the MLA for Richmond County and, as well, the chairman of this committee.
As many of you know, this committee was struck following a resolution in the House of Assembly which received unanimous support, that a committee of MLAs comprising three representatives of each Party - the Liberal Party, the Progressive Conservative Party and the New Democratic Party - would be formed to look at ways to examine why Nova Scotians have been turning out less and less to vote in Nova Scotia elections. Our most recent election in 2006, once again showed a decline in the amount of voter participation.
Since our committee has been formed, we've been reviewing a number of documents and research on past Nova Scotia elections and voter participation, as well as what is taking place in other jurisdictions, not only in Canada but throughout the world.
As part of this process, we also determined it would be important to give Nova Scotians an opportunity to speak to us directly. We have done that by putting together a Web site with an e-mail address. We have a fax, phone and mailing address as well, but we also decided that we should get out around the province and give Nova Scotians an opportunity to speak to us.
We have done that and since last week, where we started in Sydney, we've been to Antigonish, Truro, Amherst, today we're in Yarmouth, tomorrow we'll be in Bridgewater, and then on Wednesday we'll be in Kentville, before returning to Halifax where further meetings will take place.
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As part of our process of going around the province, we've done things a bit differently in that we've decided not only to hold the public sessions where people can make presentations as we have this evening, we have as well been holding focus groups in the afternoons in the communities that we have visited, where we've brought youth together in order to speak to us and, as well, we've brought representatives of various community organizations together. This took place today in Yarmouth, from 1:00 p.m. to 2:00 p.m., at the NSCC Burridge Campus, and we also had an adult focus group with representatives of various community organizations that met with us for a very lively discussion this afternoon between 3:00 p.m. and 4:30 p.m.
While we have requested that people inform us if they wish to make a public presentation, I should advise you that we have decided, as a committee, to allow anyone present who wishes to share any comments or concerns with us to do so. So we are a bit informal in that regard.
What is formal about this is that these meetings are being recorded for the purposes of having a transcript at the end of the day. These meetings are public and anything that is said is recorded and will be part of the public record of this committee's work. There may also be some media present, as well, that may make note of any comments or statements that are made.
We do ask that if you are interested in receiving a copy of today's meeting, we have a sign-up sheet at the back of the room that you can sign and, as well, we will be making our final recommendations public. If you wish to receive a copy of that, once again, you can sign the sheet at the back of the room.
As I mentioned, we do have one individual who has indicated a desire to make a presentation but if you do wish to present, I would ask that you speak to one of our clerks - Kim, who is at the back of the room - and just advise her that you wish to make a presentation as well.
Before we do start with the presentations, I'd like to take the opportunity to have the committee members introduce themselves to you, so you know exactly who we have here.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: And over to my immediate left here is Sherri Mitchell, who is one of our clerks from the Committees Office. You'll also note over here to my right, at the back of the room, we have representatives from Hansard, which is the name we give the official record of debates of the House of Assembly, as well as representatives from Legislative Television who aren't recording with video, but they are providing us with our audio recording here tonight. We also have with us Paula Romanow, who is our researcher on this
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committee, as well as Joanne Kerrigan from Communications Nova Scotia, who has been assisting us as well.
With those introductions, I would now ask Martha Cassidy to come forward and give her presentation to the committee. Martha, if you could just speak directly into the microphone and give us your full name and address, please.
MS. MARTHA CASSIDY: Martha Cassidy, I live in Yarmouth - is that a full enough address or do you want more? (Laughter)
MR. CHAIRMAN: That's fine, thank you.
MS. CASSIDY: I appreciate the opportunity to be here this evening and I also appreciate the fact that the advertisement asked that you be notified if I wanted to make a presentation so of course, being an obedient person, I did.
When I was growing up, the term "politician" was one of respect for someone prepared to sacrifice a normal life in order to represent the best interests of the people who elected that person. It is obvious that is no longer the case. Comments heard during a recent election campaign reflect the opinion that politicians are looking to financially benefit their families and friends, that they are seeking re-election in order to fatten their retirement fund, that they will make more money as an elected representative than they would in their real life and, finally, that they'll be able to travel and make connections around the world which will help them to feather their nests. Please understand these are not the opinions of the speaker.
Sadly, there is little recognition of the long days and weeks of work elected people experience. For example, barking at night may disturb and has disturbed many an elected official's sleep - not because of the dogs barking, but because of the irate taxpayers who call them in the wee, small hours of the morning. Due to legislative schedules and other commitments, elected officials often spend birthdays and anniversaries of children, spouses and themselves alone. Elected members of all levels of government have innumerable stories of being approached by electors in some very odd places, such as hospital emergency rooms, washrooms, churches, the theatre, children's playgrounds, et cetera, for assistance for an equally wide variety of situations.
I realize I'm not telling you anything you haven't already heard before and experienced personally, but no one watching the antics which pass for parliamentary behaviour could possibly consider that behaviour to be appropriate in the normal workplace. It is neither funny nor enjoyable to watch and voters often compare conduct in both the Nova Scotia Legislature and the Parliament of Canada with The Gong Show, with no confidence that anything which will positively affect the lives of Canadians in general, and Nova Scotians in particular, is actually being accomplished.
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It is my belief that voters see this rowdy and rude conduct and choose not to vote because some instinct informs them that by voting, they are endorsing what they have seen. Elected representatives must begin to behave with respect toward their fellow representatives regardless of political affiliation. Revised rules of conduct should reflect the courtesy and respect for others, which is considered appropriate in any other place of work.
There is also a need for transparency. When an election is called, a returning officer often contacts the political Parties, requesting names of those to be approached to work the election. The political Parties, understandably, choose members of their groups who have been helpful to them during an election or between. Since political Parties increasingly find that their memberships swell during an election and shrink between elections, they have fewer and fewer members from which to choose. So when many voters approach the poll on election day, they are frequently looking at senior citizens - obviously clever and capable people - and the image they carry away is that voting is for the retired.
[7:15 p.m.]
Similarly, although overt political affiliation is discouraged during a municipal election, the fact remains that returning officers do try to hire deputy returning officers and poll clerks, who are both capable and in roughly equal numbers, subtly affiliated. So for all elections these positions and their stipends ought to be advertised. Dates for elections should be selected in order to permit employed persons to work in the polls.
There is a need for election tax reform. Many provisions have been legislated to try to ensure that candidates for federal, provincial, or municipal office are not subject to pressure from contributors. Since media coverage is often concentrated on dishonest or unethical political practices and politicians, the average voter can be forgiven for assuming that the majority of candidates or politicians are not people of principle. Little is told of the majority of those elected who are people like the rest of us, and so Bill Casey becomes an exception and those who are like him are overshadowed.
Political Parties can issue receipts for tax purposes and, as I understand it, their candidates can deduct some campaign expenses from personal tax returns. Pity, then, the most grassroots candidates of all, those who run for the municipal office - no tax receipts for contributors and no deductions for campaign costs. If you want to encourage more participation in the electoral process, you must make recommendations that will make that participation less prohibitively costly.
There is a need for involvement by the educational system. Teachers need to expose students to elections and the electoral process, and to do so impartially. Schools could, for example, host all-candidate forums and perhaps even open them to the public. The practice of inviting a candidate to address students is too prejudicial. Teachers need to concentrate on elections when the opportunity presents, obviously during elections, but it would be
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appropriate to involve students in this kind of opportunity to experience democracy in- between times.
I expected my 13-year-old grandson to join me this evening. As a recent candidate for municipal office, I had a family that was quite interested in what was going on, and when I asked him and said to him you're coming with me of course, he said, well, gee, Nanny, I don't get any marks for it and I'm busy. Both of those are valid comments. Students today are busier than they ever were, the opportunity for free time just doesn't exist. I fail to understand why the school system cannot, in fact, give students credit for attending opportunities like this. It makes no sense to me. At the present time students do engage in mock votes, but they seem to regard the activity as pointless homework and not as preparation for their own opportunity to take part in the election process.
When I first saw the advertisement for this evening's meeting, I tried to envision a Canada in which there were no voters - how would people be chosen to run our country? By whom would they be chosen? What would happen if they didn't do a good job? What would happen if no one ran for office? And then I realized, of course, that is what you are trying to prevent.
To summarize my presentation, I would make the following points:
- Those who are elected must accept that their role becomes one of governing, not partisanship;
- The rules of conduct must be revised with regard not to the inhabitants of the elected Assemblies, but rather through the eyes of those who did participate in the election and do watch that conduct;
- All elections should be for a fixed term and not subject to the whim or opportunism of those seeking re-election;
- Election funding and the hiring of those who serve the election process must become more transparent;
- Elections, especially at the municipal level, are more costly than the average person can afford. Consideration should be given to ways to make elections more affordable; and
- The education system must become more involved. Teachers sometimes forget that there is more to educational leadership than just following the curriculum. Your notice of this meeting, and others like it, might well have been circulated to schools throughout the province, I have no idea whether it was.
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Your task is complex, and I appreciate the opportunity to be here and to speak to you. Somehow we all have to become aware that democracy is not just about elections and voting. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for your presentation, Martha. I should have mentioned it beforehand, but often committee members may have some questions based on your presentation. You don't mind answering any questions, do you?
MS. CASSIDY: No.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. MacDonald.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Thank you very much. That was a very thoughtful presentation, I totally appreciate it. I'm wondering, you talked in your recommendations about fixed terms, could you elaborate on what you mean by that? Are you talking about the limit in terms of the number of years that someone could serve as a representative, or are you talking about fixed terms in terms of having fixed election dates?
MS. CASSIDY: I'm talking about fixed election dates. I think that the voter perceives elections being called close together, and so on, as being a way of - it just doesn't strike them as being honest. They couldn't do it and they don't understand why it's being done.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: So the predictability - you would want to have a system that's more predictable and when we can anticipate that an election will occur rather than allow any manipulation of that?
MS. CASSIDY: Yes.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: That essentially was my question.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. MacDonald. Mr. Steele.
MR. GRAHAM STEELE: You mentioned that you just ran for municipal office.
MS. CASSIDY: Yes.
MR. STEELE: By the way, I want to mention that there is no tax credit available for provincial politicians. If there is, somebody has been hiding it from me. (Laughter)
MS. CASSIDY: Thank you, okay. The issue of tax receipts remains.
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MR. STEELE: The reforms have been around funding for Parties, certainly there is no individual tax credit available. What was the voter turnout in the municipal election in the district in which you were running?
MS. CASSIDY: I'm thinking 53 per cent.
MR. STEELE: So that's a little lower than the provincial average, lower than the federal turnout. Now, you talked about respect for politicians and being in it for the right reasons and also antics in the Legislature and Parliament. Yet on the municipal level where none of that's happening, or not to the same extent, the voter turnout is even lower. How do you explain the fact that the municipal level is the level with the lowest turnout of the three?
MS. CASSIDY: I have some difficulty. I would say that in this instance our municipal election was four days after our federal election. Certainly as I was driving people to the polls I was trying to ensure that they voted in both elections on the Tuesday, which was an advanced poll and the federal election day. I lived for some time in Prince Edward Island and I can remember arriving in Nova Scotia and sort of bragging about the turnout for municipal elections of 80 per cent. My understanding is that they're down to 60-something per cent, so it's not just a malaise that is occurring in Nova Scotia. I know that my presentation sounds naive, but I think there is a fair amount of truth to what I've seen.
MR. STEELE: One of the interesting things about where we're sitting tonight is that Yarmouth County includes - I'm sorry, let me phrase this properly. On each side of the provincial constituency of Yarmouth are the two constituencies with the highest turnouts in the province, consistently the highest - the constituencies of Clare and Argyle, part of Yarmouth County obviously. They are consistently among the highest in the province, but Yarmouth doesn't share that. Do you have an explanation for why Yarmouth has a turnout so much lower than Clare and Argyle?
MS. CASSIDY: No, but I sure think the government should give Clare and Argyle some kind of ribbon and award. It's a matter of emphasizing the positive and I was not aware of that information. I think the representatives for both of those electoral districts ought to pat themselves on the back and I think the people of the area need to do the same.
MR. STEELE: They're both here tonight, so they can pat themselves on the back right in front of you.
MS. CASSIDY: I was kind of looking at that. Obviously, if you have that kind of thing happening, somebody's doing something correctly.
MR. STEELE: I have just one more question, if that's okay. You've touched on something that we've heard in other places as well, which has to do with teaching a subject
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in school - for want of a better term, I'll call civics - teaching people about government. When you were in school, did you get taught that?
MS. CASSIDY: Not in so many words, but my social studies and current events - I attended a separate school system in Ontario and there was constantly an emphasis on the fact that I was lucky to live in Canada and that this was an obligation of mine because I live here - it was a citizenship responsibility as well as a right. It was just ingrained, and certainly that perspective prevailed whenever there were current events or discussions going on. That was an almost daily topic in our school system.
MR. STEELE: Thank you and thank you for coming out tonight.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Steele. Mr. Parker.
MR. CHARLES PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Martha, for your presentation, it was very interesting. I certainly agree with you about the problem, I guess, around decorum in our Legislatures and our Parliament, there's certainly room for improvement, there's no question about that. I guess you also mentioned our role, once we're elected, is that we're here to represent all the people as governments. It's not always easy, but try to keep the politics out of it - really, we represent everybody in the riding once we're there.
I wanted to ask you about the jobs for election workers. The way it's set up right now, the Parties that finish first and second in the previous election get to appoint the DRO or the poll clerks in turn. Sometimes it's not easy - it's getting harder and harder to find qualified people who can do it. I'm sure the Parties go through their ranks and see who's capable, but then they're also looking elsewhere. In the riding I come from, Central Nova, I think there are 174 polls in the whole riding and it's hard to get 174 qualified, good people. You make a suggestion here that maybe those election-worker jobs should be advertised. Do you have any thoughts on why you feel that's the right way to go or just how the process would work? Who would qualify them, or who would select who would be hired?
MS. CASSIDY: I think our population in general has become cynical, particularly the young. Anything which requires you to know someone in order to get a job, smacks of something mysterious, for want of - I can't find a nice word. Also, I think there are myths out there about the amount of money poll workers are paid. The only way you can effectively present the information is to present it to everybody, otherwise it remains secret.
MR. PARKER: I think it's around $150 a day that the federal workers received; I think provincial is less than that. But it's a 14- or 15-hour day, so it's a long, long day.
MS. CASSIDY: I know. No one's saying it's a lot of money, I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that the fact is, I don't think I've ever encountered a poll worker, other than
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myself, who has been prepared to tell me what they were paid. If you don't know what someone received for that 14- or 15-hour day, then you assume the reason they're not talking is because they were paid too much or in kind. There's just no transparency to the situation and I believe it is a situation which requires some transparency. I'm only talking my beliefs here.
[7:30 p.m.]
MR. PARKER: And there are almost two types of people who are paid. Elections Nova Scotia are paid a set per diem for the work they're doing on behalf of the government that's conducting the election and there are also election workers who are volunteers for each Party and lots of times they are paid quietly, by the Party itself. I wouldn't say that's true in all cases, but some of them are certainly paid by the Party.
MS. CASSIDY: I'm not sure that's the kind of payment that I think is necessary. I think my sense is it's important that the official jobs be advertised and the pay.
MR. PARKER: Another thing you suggested is it's mostly senior citizens who are there when you go in to vote and I suppose if you had a system that's transparent and open and applications came in, you would get a lot more young people, wouldn't you?
MS. CASSIDY: I would hope so, especially as the last municipal elections were run on a Saturday. People who aren't working on Saturday could have done the job. Anyone I've ever worked with in a poll, during an election, has certainly been capable, competent, and very conscientious, but we all got there because somebody called us. I'm sorry, I think that the basic problem with low voter turnout has to do with the fact that people are having a difficult time trusting people in office.
MR. PARKER: Thank you for your thoughts.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Parker. Minister d'Entremont.
HON. CHRISTOPHER D'ENTREMONT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you very much for the presentation. I want to thank you for your understanding of the sacrifices of the job. I think all of us have our best examples of where we were and what we got asked as we went along. I wanted to expand a little bit on your comments of the negative - not just the negative of what you see in the way we interact in the House of Assembly, or how we react within Parliament, but how that's reported. It's not necessarily a negative on media, but it seems to me the thing that people dwell upon is the sensationalism of our jobs. I find that when it comes to good-news announcements, things that we've done for our communities, they very seldom get any play at all. People don't understand the things that you've done for your constituency, yet we do hear a lot of things we've done that are questionable.
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Even in today's Dan Leger column, he talks about the corruption in our political system. I'm looking at a number of faces around this table and I know them to be true to their word and I know them not to be corrupt, yet when we talk about our business, we talk about our jobs, a lot of times the first thing people think about - they come up with that word, which is not just at all. I just wanted to see what your thoughts were on that.
MS. CASSIDY: I absolutely agree. I think that the media - what is it? - "if it bleeds, it leads" is sort of the television-news rule. I have not encountered dishonest people who have been elected and I thought I had made that clear. My sense, however, is that it is difficult to watch the proceedings in the Nova Scotia Legislature, and you come away with a sense that it's one huge game - where does the work get done and when? I can't watch it, I am just absolutely appalled that people would gratuitously be interrupting one another. It's a workplace and I think that there may have been a time when that kind of behaviour was fun and there may have been a time when it was totally appropriate, but I think when you have the red light of the camera on, that's the time to behave, not misbehave.
I'm embarrassed on behalf of the young people to whom we're saying, you must dress properly, you must behave properly, you must do things in an orderly fashion, and then they're looking at what goes on. The Nova Scotia Legislature is relatively tame compared to the House of Commons, but the fact of the matter is, it is still somewhat embarrassing. As a grandmother, I have a hard time suggesting that I really want my grandkids to be involved.
There's so much more to democracy, and so much more to the practice of citizenship, than just the vote. We're missing that boat, we're missing that message. I, frankly, don't think the message is up to you to give. Your example is essential, but I believe that's something the average citizen has to impart and our school systems have to impart.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. d'Entremont. Just before I go to Mr. Gaudet, I wanted to raise the point that the issue of decorum in the House is not something new, it's something that all political Parties have discussed and have debated. I'm reminded of a number of sessions ago where the Leader of our caucus at the time said we're going to do things differently, we will not heckle, we will not raise our voices, we will be very polite, and everything.
By the end of the first week, when the media was reporting on how the first week had gone, they reported that the Liberal caucus seemed disinterested, disengaged and they started wondering whether we had leadership problems and that suddenly the caucus didn't support its Leader because we did not clap or make loud noises when the Leader asked questions. So it's a challenge for us.
I can assure you, Martha, that we'd love to find that fine balance. I've seen many people come into Province House and walk away saying that we looked disinterested because when someone was talking, people were maybe doing something else or were being quiet and
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not reacting, even when fairly ludicrous statements may have been made. So there was that other element of, why was no one reacting, why did no one call that person to account for claiming they were the greatest government or they were the greatest member? It's a challenge for us. I just wanted to share that example with you.
You did raise an interesting point and I'm curious, when you suggested that the election should be held on a day when most people are not working, are you suggesting that we should go with the municipal approach of having elections on a Saturday?
MS. CASSIDY: I'm one person with one opinion in one place. I don't know what kind of consensus you would hear from around the province about that. I only suggest it as perhaps a way to open the opportunity to work a poll to people who are working during the week.
I have a difficult time understanding, for example, why teachers - it's difficult and I guess I'm knowledgeable enough to have an understanding of what you face. I certainly recall the instance where the media was concerned about your Leader. It just seems to me that as a candidate, I understand you can't very well go to a school and say, you know, there are 14 polls in wherever and I'd like 14 students to hang out and see how carefully ballots are considered. It's not appropriate.
Once again, it's something that has to be done sort of roundabout, whereas the educational system could just say okay, fine, five marks to everybody who does whatever, and that handles it. I do understand that there's a problem with the decorum . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: No, and I should point out that we did hear from a number of high schools. In fact, I think we were a bit surprised, especially in the Strait area, with the amount of high schools that held a mock vote the day of the federal election and some of the turnouts were well into the 90 per cent range and the students were not forced to go vote, they went on their own. The poll was held at the school and certainly had very high turnouts and interesting results, in fact. So some of that is taking place, but there is no structure to that, which is one of the comments that we heard.
But I should point out, I think Mr. Parker alluded to that, it's not easy for us to find poll workers, DROs and poll clerks, because people are either working or you have a very limited amount of people who have the abilities to carry out that work. So it is a challenge for all Parties and we certainly saw it, as well, in the federal campaign, that it is extremely difficult. So it's not just a matter of the secrecy around it, we can hardly find anyone, and one of the challenges, I'm sure, of the Chief Electoral Officer is that you have such a short time frame to find people. You can't advertise for two weeks or for a month. You've got a matter of days from when the election is called to get people in place, which presents its challenges as well.
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Your comments are certainly noted and I would be curious, if we did move the elections from Tuesdays to a Saturday, as to how many more people that would free up to participate in the actual voting-day process. Mr. Gaudet.
MR. WAYNE GAUDET: Thank you, Martha, for your presentation. I just want to piggyback on Graham's comments about reaching out to our young people. In the last federal election in 2006, approximately 1.2 million young Canadians between the ages of 18 and 24 years old, 1.2 million Canadians did not vote. Now, it would be interesting to see how many young Canadians didn't vote in this last federal election.
You talked about involving and educating our young folks and the education system - you did touch on a number of items. I know with your education background I'm sure you have lots more to share with this committee, so I'm just wondering if you do have more to share with us.
MS. CASSIDY: I think at this point that the points I've made are sufficient. There are other people in the audience who I think have things to tell you about it. No, I don't have the answer as to how to involve the education system. I believe that's probably going to have to come from the Minister of Education. Perhaps the department needs to look at ways to ensure that students are more aware of civic responsibilities, civic opportunities, civic activities. I don't see any young people - I see younger people but I don't see enough of them here, nor do I see enough citizens. I hope this is the smallest turnout you've had and not, by any means, the largest.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Martha, for your presentation this evening. Is there anyone else here who would like to come forward and share some thoughts or concerns on this issue, or any comments that you've heard so far tonight? As I mentioned earlier, there's no need for a formal presentation. We've gone to a number of communities where people had not initially indicated that they wanted to make a presentation but then stepped forward after that.
So you've come out here tonight, obviously you're interested in the subject and we're very interested in hearing what you have to say. So if there's anyone who wishes to come forward, please do so now and just introduce yourself, where you're from and we'd like to hear your comments. Anyone at all? Even if it's just a short presentation, we're more than happy to hear what you have to say.
Excellent, come forward.
MS. DONNA SULLIVAN: I've never spoken into a microphone in my life.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Here's your chance. If you could just state your name and where you're from.
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MS. SULLIVAN: I have no written presentation.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That's fine.
MS. SULLIVAN: I'm Donna Sullivan, I live in Port Maitland, Yarmouth County, and quite simply, I'm the mother of four children - three daughters in their 20's and one son who is now in Grade 12 at Yarmouth high school. I made a few phone calls last week, after a discussion with my son, and asked the three girls if they ever, in school, were taught anything about civics or how the Canadian Government works and no, none of the girls had. My son asked me a couple of weeks ago, right after the election, how it worked. I said, what do you mean, you don't know how it works? He said no and we asked the teacher, right after the election, how did the Prime Minister win, how was he elected? The answer was, figure that out on your own time. So to me that is appalling and that's why my daughters know nothing.
[7:45 p.m.]
They don't understand how it works and they tell me none of their friends do either. One of them is a teacher herself. She's teaching 5-year olds so she wouldn't be teaching them anything to do with civics quite yet. One of them is a business major, working, and one of them is at Dalhousie University. They're very smart girls, all graduated with straight As, and none of them know anything about the Canadian Government, how it works. I think that's pretty sad and I just wanted to present that to you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Donna. Ms. MacDonald.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Yes, we're hearing this a lot as we go around. Did they vote?
MS. SULLIVAN: The two younger ones in Halifax, no, because they understood they had to come home to vote and the comments were, Mom, we don't even know the candidate running against - well, they knew our representative - and it would have cost them over $300 for the shuttle to come home to vote. But, yes, my daughter in Calgary voted - that's not locally, but she's in Calgary and she voted.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. MacDonald. Mr. Dunn.
MR. PATRICK DUNN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a couple of comments with regard to the education system. When we look at society today, there's a decrease in the participation in many sectors. For example, look at our churches. Many of them are closing down. Volunteers for various organizations within our communities are having a very difficult time getting volunteers now, but if you were given the task of perhaps helping out
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the education system with regard to helping the young students become aware of the political process at the three different levels, what level of school would you like to see this initiated?
MS. SULLIVAN: Grade 4, Grade 5 or Grade 6 and then reintroduced - you know, just for a couple of weeks even in Grade 4 or Grade 5, and another week in junior high, and even just one day in high school just to refresh their memories of it. I'm not asking for a year-long course but, you know, even discussed. Like I said, I don't have an official presentation.
MR. DUNN: No, that's great. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Dunn. Mr. Steele.
MR. STEELE: Did you get a civics course when you were in school?
MS. SULLIVAN: Yes, I did.
MR. STEELE: And what did it involve?
MS. SULLIVAN: I was in America as a child. I went to school in the States. I moved here as a 14-year-old and, no, I had no civics course.
MR. STEELE: And the civics course that you had when you were going to school in the States, what did you learn about government and voting?
MS. SULLIVAN: It was more than one year and I learned about the House of Representatives and the Senate and how the president is elected.
MR. STEELE: Speaking about your daughters, I just wanted to explore that a little bit. So three of them are of voting age, two of them live in Halifax and one is living in Calgary, is that correct?
MS. SULLIVAN: Yes.
MR. STEELE: And the ones who are in Halifax, did they get voters' cards here at their home?
MS. SULLIVAN: Yes, they did.
MR. STEELE: So they got a voter card here at your home?
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MS. SULLIVAN: Yes.
MR. STEELE: But they were living in Halifax - how long had they been continuously in Halifax, just since the beginning of September?
MS. SULLIVAN: No. Jamie's voter card directed her to vote at a location in Halifax although it was addressed to our house in Port Maitland, and Karyn was directed to vote in Port Maitland and mailed to Port Maitland.
MR. STEELE: And how long had they lived continuously in Halifax?
MS. SULLIVAN: Karyn has been there six years and come home maybe two summers, and Jamie has been there four years and come home one summer - so years.
MR. STEELE: So obviously this whole thing has discouraged them from voting because they believed they had to come back to Port Maitland to vote, which based on your description was probably incorrect - probably, in fact, it would have been an error for them to vote here because they had lived continuously for so long in Halifax. So it seems the problem is their voter card comes here, but they really ought to have voted in Halifax, and if they had showed up at their local voting booth they probably, I think, would have been permitted to vote because they had lived there long enough. But I guess the point is, it's confusing.
MS. SULLIVAN: Yes.
MR. STEELE: Very, very confusing - they didn't know what to do. Okay, thank you for that clarification.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Steele, and thank you very much, Donna, for bravely coming forward and sharing those thoughts. Thank you.
Is there anyone else who wishes to come forward? Don't be shy. As I mentioned, in Sydney we had no official presentation listed and by the end of the night we had six or seven presentations. They just stepped forward and shared their thoughts with us - so if there's anyone who wishes to come forward, now is the time.
There being no one, I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone for having come out tonight. We had a very productive session this afternoon at the community college and then here at the hotel with some of the representatives of various community organizations in the surrounding areas and, again, the presentations here this evening.
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As I mentioned, if you wish to receive a copy of the Hansard tonight, there is a sign- up sheet in the back where Kim is, where you can get a copy of tonight, and if you wish to get a copy of our final report you can sign up for a copy of that as well.
I want to thank Minister d'Entremont for joining us this evening; he's replacing one of our regular committee members and we're certainly pleased to have him. Again, thank you to all of our committee members and our support staff who continue to assist us along the way.
As I mentioned earlier, we will be at the Days Inn in Bridgewater tomorrow with a youth focus group and then a public meeting at 7:00 p.m. at the Days Inn as well. Again, thank you for coming out in what hasn't been the greatest weather, but I'm told it will be better by the end of the week.
Thank you very much, thank you for coming this evening.
[The committee adjourned at 7:52 p.m.]
