SELECT COMMITTEE ON ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
Hon. Michael Baker
For the edification of the people present, I just want to mention that this select committee is holding public hearings throughout Nova Scotia. Our role is to determine the terms of reference for a commission, appointed from non-elected members, that will also hold hearings throughout the province to decide whether or not the political landscape throughout our province will change. We have now had two hearings in Cape Breton, in Sydney and in Port Hawkesbury; there was one held yesterday in Yarmouth; this one is being held today; and the last one is being held on Thursday. Subsequent to that, the committee will convene and work on determining the terms of reference.
My name is Neil LeBlanc. I am the acting chairman. Hon. Michael Baker is the chairman of the committee. He was required to stay in Halifax today, so I have this gracious task of coming to your beautiful Town of Truro, although I had a bit of trouble finding this location. I got here after awhile through the wondrous invention of telecommunications. Mr. DeWolfe led me through the streets.
MR. WILLIAM LANGILLE: This is Bible Hill.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Bible Hill, that's right. There is a difference between Bible Hill and Truro.
Just so that everyone is aware of everyone who is at the table, I will let the members introduce themselves.
[The members of the select committee introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: We do have an individual who is prepared to make a statement at this time, Mr. Keith Baas, as a private citizen. Mr. Baas, would you be so kind as to come forward and make your presentation. I will point out that this is a relatively informal process - please take a chair - and usually the procedure is for someone to make their comments and some of the committee members may ask some questions, or you might ask some questions yourself. We are also being joined by Mr. Paul MacEwan, the member for Cape Breton Nova. He is a long-standing member of our House. I want to point out that these sessions are being taped. They are a matter of public record and you should be aware of that.
MR. KEITH BAAS: Gentlemen, I am Keith Baas. I am presenting as a private citizen. I am also a county councillor, but I am not speaking for the county; I want to make that clear. I believe that there are 11 MLAs in HRM and seven MLAs in CBRM and three in Colchester. There are other municipalities with overlapping MLAs. My point is this: the provincial government can cut MLAs. For example, Mayor Kelly and Mayor Morgan have more votes in their municipalities than any MLA in their municipal ridings.
You hear at times from the provincial government about amalgamating some municipalities, but you never hear when the province is going to do some amalgamations. You have Premier Hamm and 11 MLAs in Cabinet and 40 in the backbenches. I believe the provincial government can cut some MLAs from their benches. That's my presentation.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll open the floor to members of the committee who may want to ask some questions of you, Mr. Baas. Are there any questions or comments from the members? Mr. Corbett.
MR. FRANK CORBETT: Mr. Baas, when you talk about downsizing, do you have a number and, if so, how did you arrive at it?
MR. BAAS: No, I don't have a number, because I feel that the committee that is formed would know that better than I do. I cannot say you should cut here or there but, like I said, Halifax and Cape Breton for example, Mayor Morgan and Mayor Kelly have more votes than any of the MLAs in the area, so there definitely could be a cut.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Epstein.
MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Can I ask for what purpose you think it would be advantageous to reduce the number of MLAs?
MR. BAAS: Cost.
MR. EPSTEIN: Is that the only . . .
MR. BAAS: That's the main, the main reason is cost. We all have to tighten our belts. We in the municipality have to tighten our belts, the province is taking more and more money away and we have to find it somewhere. I feel that the province should be doing the same.
MR. EPSTEIN: You gave as statistics the number of MLAs in HRM and then in the CBRM area and Colchester, I have to say I'm not sure that those stats you gave were accurate, but what was the point about giving the numbers of MLAs?
MR. BAAS: I'm probably off one, or something like that, but that's roughly what I figured out, that there's 11 in HRM and 7 in Cape Breton.
MR. EPSTEIN: But what was the point? I must have missed your point.
MR. BAAS: The point is this: that the province could go to Mayor Kelly or Mayor Morgan, because they have more votes than any of the MLAs. They are a lot more powerful, because they run in the whole area, the MLAs run only in the certain ridings.
MR. EPSTEIN: I see, I think I understand that. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. DeWolfe, you have a question?
MR. JAMES DEWOLFE: Mr. Baas, thank you for appearing here this afternoon. I didn't catch what constituency you're from, are you from the Truro area?
MR. BAAS: Colchester County.
MR. DEWOLFE: You're in Colchester County. When you made your determination did you take into consideration the territory and the vastness of some of the territories that are represented by rural MLAs?
MR. BAAS: Does the province do that when they want to amalgamate?
MR. DEWOLFE: I guess the question is do you feel that you're over-represented. Personally, do you feel that you're over-represented?
MR. BAAS: Yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor, do you have a question?
MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Keith, thanks for your presentation. I wish you had come in with some numbers you had in mind. I think one of the other members asked you about that. Keith, in the riding I represent we're dealing with 14 municipal politicians in that
provincial riding, and that includes some of your colleagues on county council, Mr. Masters and Richard Elliott of course, and the mayor of the county, plus the Town of Stewiacke's Council and the HRM's two councillors. For the most part I have found, over the years, that the relationship has been pretty good, pretty darn good. I recall not too, too long ago that MLA Bill Langille and I made a trip into your council . . .
MR. BAAS: Yes, that's correct.
MR. TAYLOR: . . . over a particular issue, which really isn't relevant now - it may be sometime down the road - and at that time some of the people around the table, around your table, if you could wear that councillor hat, complained, essentially about the difficult of getting the ear, sometimes, of provincial government. I don't know if you were specifically pointing out to area MLAs as much as the government. I am just looking at it and thinking in that context, that that concern probably would only escalate. That's my view.
MR. BAAS: Like I said before, I'm not speaking for the county.
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, you said that.
MR. BAAS: I want to make that clear. I'm speaking for myself. Anyway, that's all.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I should point out, for your information, that the resolution that created this select committee is to come up with terms of reference for 52 members to continue, and also for one Aboriginal seat if they so choose. I should point out that in 1991 when that seat was offered to the Aboriginal community that they chose not to and early indications are they are saying the same thing. However, I am in no position obviously to speak on behalf of that community. But I want to point out that the legislation, when it was created, was to deal with the movements of population throughout Nova Scotia and to re-examine ridings so that some fairness was in it. I don't profess to have the answers, but I just want to clarify that the recommendation is that this committee will not make recommendations to increase or to decrease the numbers working within that. But, at the same time, your points are a matter of public record and I very much appreciate you coming forward and giving of your time as a private citizen to express them.
Any further questions for Mr. Baas? Thank you very much for taking the time.
The next presenter that we have is Mike Henderson as a private citizen. I see he's in the audience, Mr. Henderson, would you please come forth. Just for your information, we try to keep these hearings as informal as possible. The usual process is for you to make a presentation and usually members of the committee may ask questions and it's a good chance to exchange views and information. So I give the floor over to you.
MR. MIKE HENDERSON: Thank you Mr. Chairman, honourable members. I am glad to be here. I am appearing before you today of my own free will and as a private citizen, but in addition to some of the things I just heard Mr. LeBlanc say to Mr. Baas, I am speaking specifically about my concerns about my own constituency of Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley. I am firmly of the belief that the number of seats in the Legislature does allow for proper and effective representation of Nova Scotians. It is sometimes popular in times of restraint to consider reducing said number in a largely cosmetic effort, in my belief, to appear to be saving money. However, the taxpayer in the long run will lose effective representation if the number of MLAs are decreased as larger ridings come about.
Having said that, I am a lifelong resident of Brookfield, one of the principal communities in the Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley. I have been disturbed somewhat by some readings that there may be a suggestion that a redistribution of seats along county lines may be in the offing. In the case of Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley, this would be counter-productive. Firstly, the riding's population is slightly above the median, but not so much that chopping territory is a good idea. Secondly, I would suggest that it does not take a lot of study to realize that the upper two-thirds of the Musquodoboit Valley and the other portions of Halifax County currently in the riding have a lot more in common with south Colchester than they do with the Halifax Regional Municipality, so much so that it wasn't very many months ago there was some support for the suggestion that this part of Halifax County might be better served by seceding from HRM and joining Colchester due to a commonality of interests.
The principal components of the riding's economic base are lumbering, agriculture and mining. These are both major factors on both sides of the Colchester and Halifax County line. The only significant agricultural base in the HRM occurs in the Musquodoboit Valley and, of course, south Colchester thrives on the agricultural business.
In the lumbering area there are eight sawmills in the constituency, including major forest product companies such as Ledwidge Lumber and MacTara Limited in Halifax County, Brookfield Lumber, Marwood and the Irving mill in Riversdale in Colchester, to say nothing of large pulp harvesting operations on both sides of the line.
[3:30 p.m.]
The geology is shared irrespective of the boundary between counties. The Windsor formation finds gypsum in Dutch Settlement with the National Gypsum plant, limestone in Upper Musquodoboit at Mosher's and in Brookfield with the Lafarge cement quarry, as well as Barytes in Brookfield and the Tusket mining operation in Murchyville.
The non-resource based part of the economy sees many people from the 63 communities in the Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley riding travelling, if not to the centres such as Brookfield, Stewiacke and Middle Musquodoboit then to Truro or the metro areas,
both easily accessed by Highway No. 102 and providing yet another commonality for the residents of the area. If the Musquodoboit Valley portion of this riding were to be relegated entirely within the HRM, it would likely be joined with either the Eastern Shore - whose interests are more related towards fishing and tourism, certainly not agriculture and mining - or with suburban areas such as Fall River, Bedford, Waverley as it has been in the past. Again, an area that shares very little in common with the Musquodoboit Valley. I would strongly suggest that the riding as currently constituted, while large in geographical terms, has a multitude of common areas that make sense.
An MLA can effectively and efficiently serve this riding in a way that would only be diminished if the constituency were reconfigured. Apart from the benefit to an MLA, the citizens of the riding have and continue to expect to receive effective representation due to the inherent similarities in the constituency. I thank you for your consideration in these matters.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Henderson. I open the floor to questions from the members of the committee. I wish I had this many questions in Question Period.
MR. LANGILLE: What I am hearing then is that part of the riding in Halifax County which is represented by my colleague, Mr. Taylor, is more compatible with Colchester County than Halifax County, is that right?
MR. HENDERSON: That's certainly my belief and I think the industry certainly shows that.
MR. LANGILLE: And due to the five lumber mills in that area and the workforce and the geographical location, I believe what you described, that you would like to see the status quo stay or maybe secede from that area to Colchester County.
MR. HENDERSON: No, I am not going so far as to put my nose in other people's business, but I cite it as something that has certainly been talked about around the HRM table. Yes, I do believe the people of the Musquodoboit Valley, of which I am not one, can be better served linked with south Colchester than they can with Waverley, Bedford or Sheet Harbour, for instance. I raise that point only because - and the reports may be erroneous - I have heard that there is a will to structure the boundaries along county lines first and foremost. I appreciate that makes good sense in many cases, but I don't think it's one here. I am not worried about - like I said, I believe, if my figures are right, that we have more than the median number of voters. Ordinarily, that might worry me about the dilution of my vote, but I think there are enough similarities and commonalities. I know your committee will have enough other challenges to draw the lines in the right places that I am not worried about us being 1,000 people over represented, if that's what the number is.
MR. LANGILLE: The reason I brought that up is just for clarity on your part, because when you were stating your presentation, I was a bit confused there.
MR. HENDERSON: Okay. Exactly, no, it is my understanding that any secession thoughts have probably been quashed in that area, but the fact that it did come about showed there was some foundation for the argument. I wasn't here on behalf of Colchester, lobbying those people to jump the line as it were or redraw.
MR. CHAIRMAN: It turned out to be an interesting session.
MR. TAYLOR: I would like to thank Mike for the presentation. I have tried to replicate or repeat some of those statistics that you have. I may have to get a copy of that presentation because it always comes in handy for resolutions down at the Legislature. (Interruption) What made you think that?
But, anyway, no, I know - I think you referenced it, Mike, in your presentation that the Musquodoboit Valley at one time I think was part of the Sackville riding and then subsequently we were called Bedford-Musquodoboit Valley and then after the Electoral Boundaries Commission reported in 1991 or 1992, the last time it reported . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: It was 1991.
MR. TAYLOR: . . . we were subsequently moved over to Colchester County and I guess I have sort of a vested interest. I will keep my comments specifically to myself, but generally I would say that in those 63 communities, there certainly is a lot of common interest and a lot of common history.
MR. HENDERSON: If I may say so, Mr. Chairman, I am a lifelong resident of Brookfield. Certainly I wouldn't pretend to speak for the residents of Halifax County in our riding, but I do know from working with them, from playing sports and being educated with many of them, that there is very much a common thread. I think they think of themselves more as, no pejorative intended here, rural people than urban people. I think it's the logical way to go. But like I say, it's not for me to tell them their business.
In my voting lifetime, I've voted in Colchester when it had two members from the entire county to the Legislature, when there was a South Colchester-only riding and Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley. Just in my voting lifetime, I've voted in three different constituencies without ever changing my address.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll just make a comment. It's a new perspective. Most of the presentations have been to maintain county lines. We have an existing example of one that's not bound by county lines, and I just wanted to make that comment, for what it's worth.
Any questions from members? If not, then I would like to thank you very much for taking time out of your busy day to come forward and make your presentation as a private citizen.
We'll do some business now. If there are no further presentations, then we will do some committee business, if that's agreeable with the members. For the edification of our listening audience here, there are hearings from 3:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m. If there are no presentations, the committee will adjourn and then we will reconvene this evening from 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. to allow people who perhaps can't make it during the afternoon to come forward and make presentations.
Just to bring things to a head, I have been informed by the chairman that there is intent to hold meetings the week following. I would like to have some discussions as to whether or not the members would be agreeable. The intent is to have a meeting on the evening of Monday, November 26th from the hours of 5:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. That is to commence deliberations of the committee whereby we can formulate the terms of reference and so forth. The intent for the second meeting is to have it on Wednesday, November 28th from the hours of 2:00 p.m. to 4:30 p.m.; on Thursday, November 29th from 2:30 p.m. to 4:30 p.m.; and on Friday, November 30th from 9:00 a.m. to 11:30 a.m. Of course, these are tentative times that we have. Maybe the committee's work will be done before Friday. We should make some provisions whereby we can have that. Mr. Epstein, did you want to get those hours again?
MR. EPSTEIN: That's exactly what I'd like to hear again.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Monday, November 26th . . .
MR. PAUL MACEWAN: This week, we're holding one day or two days of hearings in Halifax?
MR. CHAIRMAN: We have one day.
MR. MACEWAN: One day in Halifax. Which is?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thursday.
MR. MACEWAN: Thursday, 3:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m.?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, they are all the same times.
MR. MACEWAN: That's this week. Next week, Monday?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Monday, November 26th, from the hours of 5:00 p.m. until 8:00 p.m.
MR. MACEWAN: Where?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Paul, you've asked me a good question.
MR. MACEWAN: To be announced?
MR. CHAIRMAN: To be announced. TBA
MR. MACEWAN: Then Wednesday?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Wednesday, November 28th, from the hours of 2:00 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. And then we're going Thursday, November 29th. . .
MR. MACEWAN: What times on November 29th?
MR. CHAIRMAN: From 2:30 p.m. to 4:30 p.m., and Friday, we're making provisions, that's November 30th . . .
MR. MACEWAN: Friday, if needed.
MR. CHAIRMAN: . . . 9:00 a.m. to 11:30 a.m. I should point out to the members that the resolution that was passed in the House was that this committee - and I am referring to point number 5 in the resolution - complete its report to the House by November 30th. That is why we're making provisions right to November 30th. We won't be holding a lot of meetings next week, and if need be we'll meet further to ensure that we comply with the resolution of the House. This isn't unexpected.
I've been told that it will be in Committee Room 1, Dennis Building. The gentleman at the back of the room told me that. I'm pretty sure that's what he told me. It will be in the Dennis Building. There are only two rooms; if it isn't one it will be the other one. So at least we know the times and the place.
Are there any further questions from the committee members? Mr. Epstein.
MR. EPSTEIN: The business of the House seems to be moving along fairly expeditiously.
MR. MACEWAN: It's because we're not there.
MR. CHAIRMAN: It's moving much further because we're not there.
MR. EPSTEIN: I think the honourable member was speaking for himself on that occasion only.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I've been known to give long answers; I'm trying to change, but I am not sure I can change overnight.
MR. EPSTEIN: Should the House rise before we complete our report, what would be the status of the report at that point?
MR. CHAIRMAN: The report will be filed with the Clerk and as such is reported to the House. That is the same provision whereby many reports of the House are to be submitted to the House. In essence, you would give it to the Clerk and it's the same thing. If the House were to rise before that time, that is how we would proceed. The intent of this committee is to comply with the wishes of the resolution and to have it in place.
MR. EPSTEIN: I certainly wasn't questioning the timeline. What I wondered was does it not require a resolution of the House to establish the commission and give it its terms of reference, or is it automatic that the commission be appointed after this committee agrees?
MR. CHAIRMAN: It says, I am reading from the House of Assembly Act, under Section 5(3), "No later than the thirty-first day of March, 2002, and, thereafter, within ten years after the last change in electoral districts made pursuant to this Section, and at least once in every ten years from the thirty-first day of March, 2002, an independent electoral boundaries commission shall be appointed and issued terms of reference by a select committee of the House constituted to appoint the members of the commission."
MR. EPSTEIN: So, it's within our powers . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: You're the legal mind here, but this seems very clear that the select committee will be determining the terms of reference and they shall be appointing it, which brings up a good point. If the members could, at least, put their minds to, perhaps, some suggestions for membership. We had some suggestions yesterday in Yarmouth. There was a suggestion, for the edification of the members, that the Acadian community - there was a suggestion that if there is to be one, perhaps the president of the Acadian federation may be a good selection. I would just say that if the members were to put their minds to it, it may be there.
MR. MACEWAN: Mr. Chairman, if I could say something to that. I've been through this exercise once before, 10 years ago. We found at that time that just because one was nominated, didn't necessarily mean that they would agree to serve. I might think that Mr. Corbett over there is the best man in the world to be on that commission, but he has other plans for Christmas; he wants to spend it with his family. We could go through that several
times before coming down to those who would consent to serve. I just throw that out as a caution.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacEwan, I agree, and I'm saying that the members should at least lend their minds to people they feel would be qualified to do it so that when we get later on in our deliberations, if we approach people, then at least if they do turn down the opportunity due to other commitments, at least we would, perhaps, have some other alternatives. I'm just doing that to try to make sure that our work next week moves along rapidly. I don't think this will be a contentious issue, however. I think it's just trying to move the work along.
MR. MACEWAN: How many commissioners do we want, five, 10?
MR. CHAIRMAN: If I recall, I'm trying to look at what we had . . .
MR. MACEWAN: We had six last time. That was an even number.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, there were.
MR. MACEWAN: Three and three. That's a split decision.
MR. TAYLOR: The chairman got two votes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, if I got to vote more than once, I'm not sure what would happen. I'll say for the committee that's probably part of the deliberations that we'll have at the end of these hearings.
MR. MACEWAN: All right.
MR. CHAIRMAN: And that's something else you should put your mind to. Is there anything anyone would like to add? If not . . .
MR. TAYLOR: At 7:00 o'clock tonight?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, we have some of our presenters today; maybe some of the members would like to have some discussions with them after.
The meeting stands adjourned until 7:00 p.m. tonight.
[3:43 p.m. The select committee recessed.]
[7:05 p.m. The select committee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen, if I could call the meeting to order. We held deliberations this afternoon. We had some presenters. We've offered an opportunity this evening for more people to come forward. As of now, we have no one scheduled. It is now some time after 7:00 p.m. Barring anyone wishing to come forward and offer some suggestions, I say that we stand adjourned until Thursday from 3:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m., when the hearings will take place in Halifax. I was going to say in Truro. This is Bible Hill, by the way. I made a mistake and I want to apologize for that. However, we've given the people of this area an opportunity to express their views and, at least, I believe they have done so.
MR. EPSTEIN: Could we extend an invitation to those who are present? Do we know they don't want to speak?
MR. CHAIRMAN: I have talked to two of the people who didn't, and the other individual is a reporter. And the other person is Paul's wife. You may want to make a presentation. You might want to have Paul stay at home; I am not sure whether or not you make a presentation and take away the seat. If there is anyone who wants to make any statements, that's fine; if not, we stand adjourned.
[The select committee adjourned at 7:07 p.m.]
