SELECT COMMITTEE ON ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
Hon. Michael Baker
[The members of the select committee introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: We had three scheduled presenters. We give quite a bit of latitude in these presentations. We want to have an open and frank discussion going forward, so we're not trying to put restrictions on our presenters. We have three scheduled for this afternoon. If more would like to make - I see some additional people in the audience, if they would like to make - some comments, we would be more than willing to listen to them. Our first presenter is the Warden of the Municipality of Argyle, Aldrich d'Entremont. Mr. d'Entremont, you're welcome to approach the mike and make a presentation.
MR. ALDRICH d'ENTREMONT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Members of the select committee, I am here representing, like the chairman said, the Municipality of Argyle. Ladies and gentlemen, I thank you for allowing me a few moments to express my views on the composition, terms of reference and timeline for the completed report from the provincial Electoral Boundaries Commission. My presentation will be very brief.
The establishment of any commission is to improve the efficiency of government operations. It is well known that this commission will be looking at the possibility of reducing the overall representation in the House of Assembly. A change in any provincial boundary would dramatically affect citizen representation.
An Electoral Boundaries Commission must recognize our role within the region and the need for Acadian representation. The composition of the commission should consist of members at large to reflect the diverse linguistic and cultural issues of the province. Membership must include representation from Acadian, Black and Mi'kmaq communities.
The terms of reference for the commission must include a meeting in every county in Nova Scotia. The Municipality of Argyle not only includes a majority of French Acadians but also covers a significant distance. It would be difficult to represent Argyle as part of the county meetings.
The number of meetings to represent all counties and interest groups will determine the timeline for this commission. Public access and participation in these discussions will determine the time frame for the commission to complete its report. Therefore, I ask that my views be taken into consideration, and once again I thank you for this opportunity to allow me and others the chance to openly express our views. Good afternoon.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Warden. I will open it up as to whether or not any of the members on the select committee would like to ask some questions, or vice versa. Mr. Epstein.
MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Mr. d'Entremont, thank you very much. Perhaps I could just start with one point. It's actually not part of the mandate of this commission to think about reducing the number of MLAs in total. We were actually told by the Legislature in a resolution that we should stick to the 52. The possibility was raised by one member of the Legislature, but it's not part of the official mandate of what we're looking at. So that question is almost completely off the table, I would say.
That was really just for information, but I actually do have a question. I am not sure if I heard one of your points entirely correctly. I think I heard you talk about members at large. That's a phrase that sometimes means that people might be voted on by a group throughout the whole province. Did I misunderstand you? Was that something you were thinking of?
MR. d'ENTREMONT: I guess, and probably this would be your idea also, I think the commission should be made up of not only elected officials.
MR. EPSTEIN: I see. You weren't talking about the MLAs. You're talking about the commission that's going to be set up?
MR. d'ENTREMONT: Yes.
MR. EPSTEIN: I see. In fact, probably no MLAs will go on that commission at all.
MR. d'ENTREMONT: Yes.
MR. EPSTEIN: I think the idea is that it be separate from the MLAs.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? I wish Question Period was like this. Thank you very much, Warden. (Interruptions) Now now, the decorum is required. We're going to try to have an open spirit of cooperation here, in frankness. The next presenter is, of course, Harold Huskilson as a private citizen. Harold, I invite you to take the podium. I have served time in the House with him. I have a lot of respect for him and, obviously, you propose some very strong views on these issues. So, Harold, the floor is yours.
MR. HAROLD HUSKILSON: Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I am doing a little pinch-hitting for Clifford this afternoon. He's busy. Our concern in Shelburne County in regard to a boundary change, we feel there shouldn't be any change to Shelburne County. I mean to say that we have approximately 17,000 people there and the people are quite happy with the boundaries. There have been rumors - but you hear lots of rumors - that part of Shelburne County may go with Argyle or Queens, but I think in this case you should let sleeping dogs lie. I think Shelburne County shouldn't be changed. Perhaps there are other areas, in the cities and in larger populations, where there may be some change, but the people in Shelburne County are very much against any change.
There are a few things; it may not come under this committee, but some of the polls that were changed in the last provincial election, or even before that - I will just give you a couple of examples. Now, in East Green Harbour, they always voted in one place, but what they did is they put the people on the right-hand side of the road going to one poll, maybe into Lockeport, and the other going to Allendale. It made it very confusing for a lot of the people. It wasn't necessary. I mean to say, we always had a poll in East Green Harbour. In fact, nine of the polls were in the East Green Harbour area. The other one was down in Lockeport, in the beach area, and the other one was over in Osborne, but we always had a poll at East Green Harbour. In another case, at East Jordan, the people in East Jordan always voted in Jordan Falls, ever since Confederation. (Interruption) Pardon?
MR. CHAIRMAN: You say Confederation. That's when you first ran, wasn't it, Harold? (Laughter)
MR. HUSKILSON: They had moved the people from East Jordan down to West Green Harbour, and some people say, I am not going to vote. I am not going to vote because we've always gone to Jordan Falls. Of course, this has gone on for an election or two, but I think these things should be rectified. Those are two points that I have.
As far as the western part of the constituency, it seems to be all right, but in Clyde River, the poll in Clyde River is in the farthest end of the constituency. It's way down at the end. People living in Upper Clyde - it would be 22 miles from Upper Clyde to where they have to drive to vote. I would think that the poll should be right in Clyde River, up near where the church is, in that area. It would be more central; the people would come in from those areas instead of driving from one end to the further end. Those are only a few remarks that I want to make. They're not seriously - other than we don't want any changes in Shelburne County as far as the boundaries are concerned.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I would ask the committee members if there are any questions?
MR. FRANK CORBETT: Thank you, Mr. Huskilson, for showing up and giving us the ability to take some of your wisdom in. Something we've heard a fair amount is that we shouldn't tamper with the borders of counties - having constituencies run over county border lines. What do you think of that, of mixing counties together?
MR. HUSKILSON: I think they should stay. Different counties should stay within those counties instead of moving beyond. People have become accustomed over the years to voting in those areas and they don't like changes. I think none of us like many changes. But I think Shelburne County is unique. It has the correct population for a poll, but if they went with Queens County or Argyle - but don't take it away from us because we've lost just about everything in Shelburne County that we could. Our hospital is nil, and the Nova Scotia School for Boys - when I was Minister of Social Services, we had over 100 of those boys there and now we're down to 36. Everything seems to go either to the Valley or to Halifax. For God's sake, don't take any more from Shelburne County but what's already been taken.
MR. CORBETT: I know all about things being taken away from you; I am from Cape Breton.
MR. WAYNE GAUDET: Mr. Huskilson, I just want to ask a question with regard to people on election day - people from different polling stations or people from the same communities having to go and vote at different polling stations. It's certainly not the mandate of this committee to address those concerns. I am just curious, I guess, have these concerns been brought up to the Chief Electoral Officer or to the District Returning Officer for Shelburne County, about people from the same community having to go and vote at different polling stations on election day?
MR. HUSKILSON: They prefer to vote on the old, original set-up that we had a few years ago.
MR. GAUDET: No, my question was, have these concerns been brought forward to the attention of the District Returning Officer for Shelburne County?
MR. HUSKILSON: I don't know whether they have been or not. I don't know. I am not aware of it, no.
MR. CECIL O'DONNELL: I would tend to agree with Mr. Huskilson on this as far as the county boundary lines. I think with the polling station at Clyde River - it used to be in the United Church there, but I think this last time it was moved to the Port Clyde area because it was wheelchair accessible. Now the Clyde River church is wheelchair accessible, so there is that possibility of moving it back, which would be more central.
MR. EPSTEIN: Mr. Huskilson, one of the things about Shelburne County is it probably does have about the average size population of the average constituency and the average size number of voters.
[3:15 p.m.]
MR. HUSKILSON: It's 17,000. There might be 17,200. So many younger people are staying home now instead of going away, and we even have a number of graduates from university; they've come back and they can make more money lobster fishing rather than go away again. There are several of them that have degrees; they're in the fishing boats and they're staying home.
MR. EPSTEIN: It's very good when there's some stability.
MR. HUSKILSON: They're bringing their families up here instead of moving to Ontario or going to Halifax or some other place looking for work. Shelburne County, especially in the western part of the county, Barrington municipality, has grown considerably over the last few years.
MR. EPSTEIN: I am glad to hear it. What do you say about your neighbouring County of Queens, though? They're a lot smaller than the average.
MR. HUSKILSON: I don't know the exact figure of Queens County, I don't think they'd be much over 12,000 and then Argyle, what are you, about 6,000, Neil?
MR. CHAIRMAN: For voters? Voters were 6,600 last time and it's probably grown since then.
MR. HUSKILSON: Maybe you could put Argyle back with Yarmouth again like they used to be. You probably wouldn't go for that, but that used to be Yarmouth and Argyle.
MR. EPSTEIN: So if it was a question of trying to even up the population numbers, it might be appropriate to cross county lines?
MR. HUSKILSON: I am not going to make any statement one way or the other as far as that goes, but I know when I was first in politics, Argyle and Yarmouth - of course, they did have two members for the area.
MR. EPSTEIN: I guess I was just wondering whether in your view the idea of keeping counties discrete was an absolute or just a very desirable thing?
MR. HUSKILSON: Well, I don't . . .
MR. EPSTEIN: I am not hearing an answer to that, but that's fine with me. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Just for the edification of the members, I do have a recapitulation of last election. It was showing Queens with a little over 9,000 in population and Shelburne with 12,000 in population, so Queens is about three-quarters of the size of Shelburne. This is voters, not population. That is the voting population, people who are registered and so forth. I don't know if that's in your documentation, but I took the time to look at it.
MR. HUSKILSON: I think you try to hit a happy medium. Around 17,000 or 18,000 I think it used to be, but I don't know what.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I want to thank you very much, Harold, it's nice to see you again. Our next scheduled presenter is Peter Boudreau with Le Conseil acadien de Par-en-Bas, which is in my riding. Par-en-Bas, for the information of the committee, is - Clare is called Par-en-Haut and Argyle is called Par-en-Bas. Up and down is what it is referring to. Anyway, we have two presenters today. We have Peter Boudreau on my right and he is assisted by Clyde deViller, who is also involved with the Conseil. Gentlemen, the floor is yours.
MR. PETER BOUDREAU: Monsieur le président, merci, thank you, and members of the select committee. Before I commence, Harold Huskilson has been a good friend for many years, but now, I don't know. We'll talk about that later on. What I want to do first is to express our gratitude to the committee. I think it shows goodwill from the government of today in terms of allowing you people to tour the province and talk about this select committee and the electoral boundaries. It shows a goodwill for democracy, and that in itself is very important to us. Regardless of what you are going to do with our reports, you're still asking us for feedback, and that in itself is very healthy, so thank you again.
This brief is being presented by me, Peter Boudreau, President of the Conseil acadien de Par-en-Bas, which was formerly known as the Acadian Federation of Nova Scotia Committee in Argyle. We just changed the name recently; we have just been incorporated under Conseil acadien de Par-en-Bas. That's very difficult to translate, Acadian Council - Par-en-Bas means lower. When we say lower, we don't want to demean Argyle to Clare, Clare meaning Par-en-Haut, upper. So we have to be careful what we say here.
The Conseil acadien de Par-en-Bas - that's us - wishes to thank the select committee for giving us the opportunity to give our input on the terms of reference for the commission which will review the provincial electoral boundaries. Once again, Mr. Chairman, it was difficult for us to understand fully what this committee's mandate is. It was a bit difficult for us to compose a brief to stay in line with the three references in your ad. We called here and there and it didn't seem that too many people knew exactly the terms of reference of this committee that you are chairing today, so it was a bit difficult for us to write a brief.
What we're saying, though, we mean it. Do you want me to continue?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Certainly.
MR. PETER BOUDREAU: The Conseil acadien de Par-en-Bas, formerly known as the Regional Committee of FANE - Acadian Federation of Nova Scotia in Argyle - consists of about 250 individual members and about 30 associate members. We are the most important voice - and that's Peter Boudreau saying that; a lot of people might say otherwise but we like to believe we are the most important voice - representing the Acadians in the Municipality of the District of Argyle when it comes to culture, when it comes to education and so on. I have been mandated by le Conseil acadien de Par-en-Bas to make the following presentation to you on establishing an Electoral Boundaries Commission.
I have with me other interested people from the Municipality of Argyle, who have shown an interest in this particular presentation, including Clyde deViller, who has been working for the Acadian Federation for 11, 12 years for the Municipality of Argyle, and Cecil d'Entremont and John Doucet, who are associates of the Conseil. Later on if there are questions that I can't answer, I will invite Clyde, John or Cecil to answer.
Then again, Mr. Chairman, we didn't know exactly the mandate, so we took a chance to say the following. Given the fact that we hear talk in the news of creating an Acadian seat in the Nova Scotia Legislature, the Conseil acadien de Par-en-Bas is totally against this notion of creating a provincial Acadian seat. We strongly oppose having an MLA represent the entire Acadian population of Nova Scotia. If there is any criticism right now about doing a lot of legwork in the rural areas, driving here and there and going to all the meetings and the banquets and the weddings and so on, can you imagine having one Acadian representing the entire province? It would be a total disaster for the MLA and the government of the day plus the Acadian population of Nova Scotia.
Our statistics indicate that there are about 40,000 Nova Scotians who have identified themselves as being French, or French as their first language. This figure does not include the many Nova Scotians who have strong Acadian roots but no longer speak the language. It would be impossible for one MLA to effectively represent the needs of the Acadians, including my needs, my interests and my demands. I am always calling Mr. LeBlanc on different things. Sometimes he calls back. (Laughter) Being very busy, you know. If there
were four or five people like me in Clare and Chéticamp and Halifax and Dartmouth, he would just be answering some calls on the needs and interests and demands of Acadians, let alone being the Minister of Finance.
Please note that the Acadie of Nova Scotia extends from the extreme tip of this particular area, Wedgeport, which is south of here, to Chéticamp, as some of you well know. The territory is too vast to have one Acadian representing all of us. Some of us are not easy to manage either, you know, to represent; we want so much it would be almost impossible. I don't know if you agree, but anyway. Le Conseil Acadien de Par-en-Bas does not want to give you, the select committee, or any commission a mandate to impose one Acadian seat for the entire province. As a joke we said get it out of your heads. Don't think about it; don't even talk about it. But seriously, you can talk about it, but it would be a disaster for the Acadian population.
We realize that without a designated Acadian seat, we are not guaranteed an Acadian MLA in the constituency of Argyle, in the House of Assembly; however, we truly believe in the democratic process and do not feel that an Acadian seat could be achieved democratically. It would be too difficult to manage; even the election would be difficult. We have been very pleased, by the way, with the representation in the Argyle constituency since its creation in 1981 and feel that the Acadians' interests, demands and needs have been well represented since we obtained our provincial riding. As you know, or some of you may know, we fought very hard in 1981, with a lot of people making presentations to an electoral commission, and finally we got our own seat for the first time in the history of Nova Scotia. We are very pleased with the seat.
In light of our present-day situation, as well as our role in the history of this province - don't forget we have been here for 400 years, since 1604 - we find it essential that at least one non-elected, French-speaking Acadian be appointed to the Electoral Boundaries Commission. Mr. Epstein, you made a reference to Mr. d'Entremont saying that the commission is at large or basically consisting of non-elected people. We didn't know that. What we were saying is if it's not and it's all MLAs - okay, then, we didn't know - we would want to make a little recommendation to you.
What we would like to recommend to you is that the president of the Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse be appointed to the said commission. In other words, the president of the Acadian Federation of Nova Scotia represents all Acadians and francophones throughout Nova Scotia. He or she is elected on an annual basis by the membership at an annual meeting, so that in itself is a democracy. The person would be the person that my council in Argyle would want you to appoint if you have a mandate to appoint a commission.
With regard to the terms of reference, we recommend that the commission not only consider population when redistributing electoral boundaries but also be given the mandate to consider geography, existing and traditional municipal boundaries, urban versus rural and
communities of interest such as language, culture and history. You probably have read many documents saying that bigger does not necessarily mean better. In other words, you may have
a high population for one riding and you may look at a smaller riding. So throughout the years you may have read, as you well know, I think you have made a reference to some Saskatchewan ruling in the document we saw, saying that rural ridings have to be well taken care of, too, because of the geography of the rural riding. You probably have more calls about a ditch or a culvert than you have about being a Minister of Finance. So that in itself, with a rural riding, may be important whereas in the City of Halifax it may vary as to the interest and demand and needs of that particular constituent.
We also recommend that the commission ensure that every region be given the opportunity to express their views to the commission, I think Mr. d'Entremont said the same thing, and we feel that this could be best accomplished by holding public consultations. This is what you're doing today and I am almost sure that the Electoral Boundaries Commission would also be doing the same. We also recommend that at least one consultation be held in Yarmouth County, I am not finished, and don't forget the constituency of Argyle. We have rooms there, too.
The next one says we also recommend to you that presenters to this commission be given the opportunity to express themselves in either of Canada's two official languages, if it would be possible. Like every time the Acadian Federation of Nova Scotia or le Conseil acadien de Par-en-Bas are in Clare, makes a presentation, we have to do it in your language, in English, and it would be very nice if once in our lifetime we would be invited to make it in French, or the language of your choice. As you well know, you attend a lot of federal meetings, congress, congrès, colloques and they have translation there. It's not out of bounds. So we would appreciate it if you can.
[3:30 p.m.]
We recommend that a preliminary report, and I think here what we mean is a report from the Electoral Boundaries Commission, be circulated to the public or made public prior to its final approval. This in itself would allow the public to ensure that its interests have been respected and allow any possible and/or necessary changes to be made to the final report. In the past, I don't know. I know I appeared in 1981 and made a submission with some 12 other people on dividing this split riding of Yarmouth County into Argyle and Yarmouth Town and the Municipality of Yarmouth, but I never saw a preliminary report. When we got the report, or the result of the report, it was final. So we're recommending that a preliminary report be circulated if it's possible. This preliminary report should be sent to all individuals and groups who are making presentations to you. In other words, we would appreciate receiving a preliminary report.
For a completed report from the commission, we recommend that the report be presented within a time period that allows adequate preparation for the next provincial election. I guess what I mean there is if you finalize your report a couple of months or weeks before the election, you wouldn't give anybody any chance to rebut the report. Le Conseil acadien de Par-en-Bas has a long-standing history in the preservation and promotion of the Acadian culture and language in the Municipality of the District of Argyle. We fought long and hard to obtain and maintain our provincial riding. What that means is in 1981 about 12 people or briefs were presented. Then in 1991, again, we came to you with some other briefs saying don't mess with the provincial riding of Argyle and here we are talking about it again. So it seems like every 10 years we have to come back to you. I thought the Argyle riding was a sure thing. What do you think?
AN HON. MEMBER: It should be.
MR. BOUDREAU: Anyhow, therefore, we wish to advise this select committee as well as the Electoral Boundaries Commission that we oppose any change to the provincial riding of Argyle.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Just to give a little information to our presenters today, there was an Act that was passed in 1990-91 which ensured that every 10 years there would be a review. So this is mandated. Part of the reason is that there are population shifts and there are changes in Nova Scotia's landscape and because of that and I think the fact you could say of that potential for legal challenges to the representation of some of our members, it was enshrined in legislation that every 10 years there would be a review. So this is mandated, just to clarify that.
The other thing is that the select committee will report by November 30th whereupon the committee will be appointed and they will be, as Mr. Epstein has stated, non-elected and they usually represent a diversity of different interests throughout the province. The last time there was a lady from Clare, I can't recall the name, Alphonsine Saulnier, who represented Acadian interests. I am not suggesting what will come from our deliberations. That's just to give you a bit of background. I don't think there was a mandated time for them to do it. However, it is usually within a reasonable amount of time. So this work should be finished well before the next election, just to let you know that for your own information.
There was one point I wanted to bring up before I pass it for questioning, if I could just recall, there was something that you said. You talked about translation services. Is there something that is available locally for that and I am just asking you a question before I pass it off, if you could just clarify that, are there services locally that could be provided for that?
MR. BOUDREAU: I understand that Université Sainte-Anne has the entire service.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Anyway, with the indulgence of the committee, we'll pass it on for questions. Are there any questions for our presenter today? Mr. Epstein.
MR. EPSTEIN: I have a few questions actually. I would start by looking back at the Electoral Boundaries Commission of a decade ago and the name Alphonsine Saulnier, as Mr. LeBlanc said just a moment ago, she was a member of that commission at the time. I have to say I don't know her and I wonder if you do and if you can explain perhaps how it is that she was chosen to be on the Electoral Boundaries Commission at the time. Did she hold an official position inside the federation?
MR. BOUDREAU: Was that in 1991?
MR. EPSTEIN: Yes, 1991-92.
MR. BOUDREAU: She may have worked for the Canadian federation at the provincial level at the time because in 1992 she was hired for the Collège de l'Acadie in Clare. You see, 10 years later, you don't remember all those facts.
MR. EPSTEIN: That's fine, it was just if you happened to know.
MR. BOUDREAU: So it is an apology on our part, too, not to know that.
MR. EPSTEIN: That's okay, no, it was just if you happened to know.
MR. CLYDE DE VILLER: At the time she worked for the institut de développement communautaire at the Université Sainte-Anne which was a provincial association dedicated to informing adults in all kinds of different aspects in French. She does have and did have at that time, and still does, a long-standing history of working for Acadian associations throughout the province.
MR. EPSTEIN: If for some reason your suggestion of the president of the federation didn't go forward, either because the person wasn't available or wasn't interested, or had some kind of clear identified political affiliation which might disqualify them, is there some other position or function, or several of them, that you might suggest we think about?
MR. BOUDREAU: Right today it wouldn't be fair to mention any names without talking to them, but thank you very much for the invitation. We thought that the president of the Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écossse at a provincial level would be a person representing all interests and demands of all Acadians throughout Nova Scotia, as the position is at all times. It would be a natural person to have there. That's why we're suggesting that particular position.
MR. EPSTEIN: Perhaps there is a vice-president, perhaps there is something else.
MR. BOUDREAU: Perhaps, yes.
MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. The other thing I wondered about was the whole question of constituencies that are significantly smaller in terms of numbers of population but which clearly were created with the idea of trying to bring members of the Acadian community into political life, and I am wondering if you can help me think about this. You were very strong in what you said about the desire to keep Argyle. There are several things I wonder. One is I wonder about how many of these constituencies you think ought to exist in the province and I wonder if you can tell us where they ought to be located for preference. Could we start with that?
MR. BOUDREAU: Then, again, would it be fair for me to start saying that Clare should have its own riding, and I am sure Clare wants its own riding, Argyle wants it own riding, but to look at the other regions of Nova Scotia, it wouldn't be fair for me to even try to express their views because I haven't talked to them, I don't know what their feelings are. I know, I have talked to people from Clare all the time, almost on a daily basis, if you stripped Clare of its own riding, you might be stripped of something else. They wouldn't allow that at all, it would be political suicide.
We have come to like our riding, too, in Argyle and to strip us of that particular right would be a disaster. Since the formation of Nova Scotia, Argyle only received its constituency in 1981. As you probably know, the constituency prior to that was a dual riding. We had difficulty in the Municipality of Argyle to run a candidate who was of Acadian descent, because at the time, see, the Yarmouth Municipality and the Town of Yarmouth probably wanted to vote for an anglophone from those particular two areas. It doesn't mean that an anglophone or a non-Acadian can't run within the Municipality of Argyle. If you look at the history, the first election we had in 1981 or 1982, an anglophone ran and he won. It was opposite the Party Neil is representing but it was still an anglophone who ran and he successfully won. But then, again, it gives us a better chance to support an Acadian person, the way it is set up now.
MR. EPSTEIN: I certainly understand that it gives a better chance, absolutely. I should also say that I am not aware that anyone is proposing to strip away Argyle; let's be clear about that. But I want to understand the process. You have mentioned Clare and Argyle, sometimes a third constituency is mentioned and it is often Richmond. I wonder about the Cheticamp area, would that not also be the other main concentration of the Acadian population?
MR. DE VILLER: In terms of population by region, Cheticamp or the Cheticamp region would actually be larger in Acadian population than Richmond County. However, Richmond County does have a lot of English communities and it is not during every election that an Acadian is necessarily elected in Richmond County. In fact, I think if you look at the history books, more often than not it is a non-Acadian who has been elected in Richmond
County. However, Cheticamp, whereas their population is probably a couple of thousand, it makes it difficult to know where to put them in order to increase their chances, if you will, of electing an Acadian. In Argyle we do have the advantage of having approximately 60 per cent Acadian population, and ever since the 1982 election we have always elected an Acadian to the Legislature. So that sort of answers that question as far as population.
MR. EPSTEIN: Is there any particular reason this has been more of an issue in Clare and Argyle than it has been in Cheticamp because I have to say I haven't heard anyone arguing for a separate Cheticamp area constituency.
MR. DE VILLER : My guess would purely be based on numbers. They don't have as large a population, they don't have their own municipality as we do, so they haven't had the political infrastructure in the past to get themselves on their feet as far as making demands for a provincial riding.
MR. EPSTEIN: Let me also ask this. I wonder how long you believe this ought to go on for, or whether you believe it ought to go on forever? Let me explain why I ask it that way. When there are deviations from the basic principle of equality of representation by numbers, it should be for a good reason. If we accept that a good reason will be to try to make sure that the Acadian population gets an adequacy of opportunity to participate in political life, we have to wonder whether it is necessary for that to go on forever. When I look at some of the people who have been elected in the constituencies that are identified as primarily Acadian, I find it hard to think that they would not have risen to political prominence regardless of the composition of the constituencies. So the chairman of our committee, obviously a talented person, someone who would be well-respected in any community that he happened to live in, are you telling us that Neil LeBlanc couldn't get elected if it was a question of Argyle-Yarmouth again?
MR. BOUDREAU: When you look at the past here - and I don't where it was, probably through your document here - about the number of Acadians who have been elected within the Yarmouth County lines, very, very few have been elected over the years. I saw that today, I don't know where I saw it, but very, very few Acadians got elected within the boundaries of Yarmouth County, let alone within the boundaries of Argyle. I don't know what I should say here, but I think the last person of a certain Party who won the constituency of Argyle or the boundaries, was in 1897 or so, and then I can go to Gerald Comeau - you know who I am talking about? - who ran as a Conservative member and won within Argyle. I think he was the first one.
Now, how the Acadians were elected years ago was by a contradiction to what I said, mostly by the Yarmouth vote and the municipality. So to look at the number of Acadians who have been elected within the Municipality of Argyle, even when they ran in the dual riding, they didn't have too many chances of being elected, maybe they had been a Conservative, or an NDP or a Liberal by the way. The Yarmouth stronghold, the population
of the Town of Yarmouth and the Municipality of Yarmouth was stronger than Argyle for many, many reasons. Commercial, public life? I don't know.
MR. EPSTEIN: I raise it because this is of course a difficult problem.
MR. BOUDREAU: It is a very important question though.
MR. DE VILLER: I see your point. We have had some very - Neil included -influential politicians in the Municipality of Argyle since the creation of our provincial riding. But as Peter said, history shows that this has only happened since we have had our own riding; previous to that, Acadians were not getting elected in the dual riding of Yarmouth.
MR. CHAIRMAN: If I could pass the baton. I will make a comment, just one, Howard. I would not have received the nomination in 1984 if I wasn't from Argyle. So I will just make the comment for what it's worth.
MR. EPSTEIN: Why do you say that?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Why, I guess, and I am speaking from history - and it is not for me to make presentations - but for me, the fact of the matter is that many times people would look to the town, where the power base is. The town is the most influential area of the county, with the Municipality of Argyle and Yarmouth sort of being the second because it surrounds the town. People look at these centres. Because of that, it's probably one of the reasons that people look there to draw from, and so because of that it has had a lessening of opportunities for Acadians to present themselves for nomination and to win. It's not for me to hold up the time of the committee, but I just want to make that one statement. I know that I wouldn't have received it, I wouldn't have been approached. And I was approached to run at that time, but I wouldn't have been approached.
[3:45 p.m.]
Do I have some other questions from the committee here?
MR. BOUDREAU: The list is here, if you want to see a list, but it's probably irrelevant. I found a document as to who has been elected within the boundaries of Argyle.
MR. EPSTEIN: Oh, great.
MR. BOUDREAU: Very few.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to thank you very much for coming forward and making a presentation. If there are no other questions, thank you very much.
MR. BOUDREAU: Once again, we appreciate the fact that you gave us the opportunity to express a few points.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Can I ask one question? A previous presenter was saying that - and I think it was Mr. D'Entremont or the Warden - every county should have a hearing. Well, there are 18 counties in Nova Scotia, and it begs the question as to what is your opinion as to whether or not we should hold some of these regionally rather than repeating them in every single county? I guess I am asking for the time and expense of the committee. What is your opinion on whether or not we should hold some regionally? Was that reasonable or not? If I could just ask your opinion in that regard, if you could share your opinion.
MR. BOUDREAU: On the second paragraph on the second page, what we're recommending is that one be held, at least, in Yarmouth County.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You feel there should be one in every county?
MR. BOUDREAU: No comments.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
MR. BOUDREAU: Thank you once again.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Pleasure. That is the last of our scheduled presenters. We have some other people in the hall; they may want to express their opinions. We're offering quite considerable latitude. If people would like to come forward and make any comments, the floor is here. If not, then we can have some discussions subsequent to the meeting.
I know this lady very well. This is Pauline d'Entremont, she's from the Village of West Pubnico. Pauline.
MS. PAULINE D'ENTREMONT: I am going to do a presentation. I will do it in the mail because I didn't have the chance to do it on paper before coming here this afternoon. I would just like to second Mr. d'Entremont, the Warden and also the federation that we fought hard prior to 1981 to have our own riding where we were served as a dual riding, and so we would not want for it to be changed over or even considered. I guess this is all I will say today and the rest will come in the mail.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to thank all the presenters for coming here this afternoon. We are still having hearings tonight from 7:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. I am not sure how many we have scheduled; I am not sure if we have anything, but we will convene at 7:00 p.m. to see if someone wants to come forward and share their opinions.
I should point out that there is a little bit of cloudiness as to what our role is. It is to establish the terms of reference, and those terms of reference will guide the people who are the non-elected members who go forward. This is a very important committee because those terms of reference, to a great extent, will - not so much limit, I re-emphasize again - guide their work. The previous committee that came forward, the terms of reference, if I recall - I don't have it in front of me - talked about the fact that Argyle and Clare and some other ridings - Preston, some representation for Blacks should be provided. So your input has been very much appreciated. I am sure that members of the committee will give due consideration to it.
If there are no further presenters today, I would like to thank you all for coming forward and taking the time to serve your roles as concerned citizens of this province. Merci beaucoup pour tout le monde de venir. Bonjour. The committee stands adjourned.
[3:50 p.m. The select committee recessed.]
[7:01 p.m. The select committee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: We're right on time, 7:00 o'clock. All our members are here. We have one presenter who is going to be talking to us this evening. Hopefully we will have some others joining us. I don't know if everyone was introduced to you this afternoon. It's Gordon Reid, perhaps Gordon if you want to come forward. I should remind you that these are public hearings, they are being recorded, and that is for your information. We didn't tell the group earlier on today, so we're trying to rectify that for you. Are you aware of everyone who is here, or do you want us to introduce ourselves?
MR. GORDON REID: I was here this morning when you introduced everybody.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Anyway, if that is the case, basically I will pass the floor over to you so you can make your presentation.
MR. REID: It's not necessarily a presentation . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Perhaps, just for the information of the committee, could you say where you are from and so forth.
MR. REID: Mr. Chairman, my name is Gordon Reid, I live in Weymouth, which is not too far from here. I looked over Mr. Russell's resolution this afternoon, and I really haven't prepared very much, I've just gone over a few things in my mind here. I think what bothers me - and here is number 7 of the resolution.
I'm a Canadian, I'm a Nova Scotian, I'm a refugee from Ontario but I am still a Nova Scotian. I count among my friends, Acadians. I count people of mixed races, of different religions. Weymouth is as diverse as the rest of Canada. Weymouth has all sorts of different people in it. We have a Black community; we have an Acadian community; we even have an English community. I think what bothers me here is that one of the things you're looking at is putting in an ethnic MLA, am I correct?
The thought that comes across to me is affirmative action. I personally am opposed to affirmative action and I think that anybody with the right qualifications can do the job whether they are Acadian, whether they are Mi'kmaq, whether they are English. My constituency is well represented by Mr. Balser, who is not any sort of ethnic group or religion, but he represents us all. He represents my Acadian friends, my Black friends, my Mi'kmaq friends, and I just don't see a need for an ethnic group being represented in the Legislature. That's all I have to say.
MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Are there any questions from the members of the committee? Mr. Epstein.
MR. EPSTEIN: Mr. Reid, when I was asking some questions this afternoon of some of the presenters, the line of my questioning might have suggested to you that the point you just put forward might perhaps be one that I shared. I didn't continue with my questioning, so I think I want to make it clear for the record that, in fact, I think there is quite an appropriate place for what you called affirmative action, in the political life of our province. On the other hand, I think it's always an appropriate question to ask how long it's necessary to carry on with that. That was really, I think, the only place I was going with the questioning I had this afternoon. I think that's a perfectly legitimate question to ask.
The hope would be that, in time, society would change and making amends for historical inequities, or particularly any that continue to be a problem, might no longer be necessary. It's always a difficult question to judge whether we've actually arrived at a stage where that's the case. I regard it more as a mixed matter of practicality and of principle, where we have to strike a balance.
In any event, I take your point. We have not yet, as a committee, had the opportunity to discuss this or any of the other issues, but we will before setting the terms of reference for the Electoral Boundaries Commission itself. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any other questions? Thank you for your time, for taking the time to come to both our hearings, Gordon, I appreciate it very much.
To our new guests in the audience, this is a hearing to establish the terms of reference for a commission. We are open to any submissions coming forward. If you would like to make one, that would be fine. If you just want to listen to our proceedings, that's fine also.
However, we are giving people an opportunity to express their opinions on that. We have, to my understanding, no more presenters this evening. We had some this afternoon. If there are no further submissions then basically we will be standing adjourned until tomorrow where the hearings will take place in the Town of Truro - tomorrow afternoon from 3:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. tomorrow evening.
We stand adjourned.
[The select committee adjourned at 7:08 p.m.]
