SELECT COMMITTEE ON ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
Hon. Michael Baker
Also, this presentation is open to the public and members of the public are encouraged to come today, whether it is to this afternoon's meeting or to the one that will be resuming at 7:00 p.m.
I don't believe there are any preliminary matters, members, so with that again, I will do what we did before and I will ask members of the committee to introduce themselves and indicate their ridings, starting with Mr. Epstein.
[The members of the select committee introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. With that, I would ask our first presenter this afternoon, Mr. Frank MacInnis, on behalf of the Inverness PC Association. Mr. MacInnis, have a seat. Whenever you are ready, sir.
MR. FRANK MACINNIS: Mr. Chairman and panel, my remarks are fairly brief, on behalf of the Inverness PC Association. It is our feeling that the Boundary Review Committee should be composed of individuals who have no vested interest in constituency boundaries. This would exclude politicians at all levels, as well as those involved with political organizations. It is very important that any recommendations reflect common sense decisions and not partisan, political advantage.
Secondly, as demographic population shifts, the review committee should consider geographic realities to ensure adequate representation for this group. Spread out, wide geographic constituencies have very different priorities than concentrated, urban populations.
We feel there should be a time limit imposed, perhaps a period of six months, when the Review Commission is struck as public hearings assemble and organize the information received and forward it its recommendations.
Finally, the establishment of designated seats, such as First Nations or Black, should be approached with extreme caution. Establishment of such seats could create a ghetto mentality, create a demand for a designated seat for various special interest groups, or discourage individuals from these groups from seeking office in existing constituencies. Nova Scotia might be better served if all existing political Parties encouraged individuals from minority groups to seek elected office within the framework of their particular Party. Those are the only points we wanted to present to your panel today.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. MacInnis. Are there questions from the members of the committee? Mr. Epstein.
MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: That was admirably succinct, thank you very much. On your comment about designated seats, you specified the possibility of a Mi'kmaq seat or a seat where most of the voters might be Black. A few of the seats where boundaries have been drawn so that the constituencies are notably smaller, in terms of population, have been around areas that have had larger concentrations of the Acadian population. I wonder if your comment is meant to extend to those seats as well, or to exclude them?
MR. MACINNIS: No, those as well.
MR. EPSTEIN: Okay, thank you very much.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Are there questions from anybody on the committee?
MR. PAUL MACEWAN: I might just make an observation, Mr. Chairman, that the designated seats - I don't think that is the proper term to use - where Acadians or Blacks would constitute the largest number of voters, shall we say, those seats have already been set up; they have been in existence like la circonscription Richmond, for how many years, Michel? Since Confederation - before.
MR. MACINNIS: I guess the point we want to make is that if that designation exists, it shouldn't be restricted to a francophone speaker or a Black person or anyone in that area . . .
MR. MACEWAN: We have no such laws in Nova Scotia, sir, none whatsoever. If Richmond County wants to elect Paul MacEwan, it can, if I run there, but I will run in Cape Breton Nova.
We had Richie Mann representing Richmond County before Michel. There is no ethnic qualification to run as a candidate. You have to be a Canadian citizen, 19 years of age, I believe, and not be incarcerated in a federal penitentiary for more than two years.
MR. MACINNIS: I think the point we are making is that those items that you have just mentioned do not happen, that the seats are not restrictive.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think those are all the questions. Thank you very much for taking the time to make a presentation, sir.
Our next presenter is Mr. Gabriel LeBlanc, from the Collège de l'Acadie. Have a seat, Mr. LeBlanc.
MR. GABRIEL LEBLANC: Members of the committee, I have just two points to make on behalf of the Acadian community of Isle Madame, in particular, and Richmond in general. Our concern is that we would like to see Acadian representation in or on the commission. By Acadian representation we mean an individual who is knowledgeable as well as sensitive to the Acadian aspirations in Nova Scotia.
Secondly, we are concerned that in the delugement of the Acadian community, as far as political presence is concerned in Nova Scotia, we would like to see a linguistic as well as a cultural component to the terms of reference. Now that does not mean that, in a sense, Brooke Taylor couldn't run on Isle Madame; that is not what we mean. We just feel that as a community, like in Richmond, whose majority is really of Acadian descent, that should be recognized by the Commission in setting up the electoral boundaries.
Gentlemen, those are the two points I wish to present to you today.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. LeBlanc. Questions from members of the committee?
Mr. Brooke Taylor.
MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. LeBlanc raises a good point relative to having somebody on the commission who truly represents the Acadian community. I believe that during the last Boundary Commission workings there was a Madame Saulnier, I guess from Digby County, representing that particular area of the province and, I believe, the Acadian community. I am not sure if you are familiar with that or not.
MR. GABRIEL LEBLANC: No, I am not.
MR. TAYLOR: But I believe that was the case. I could be corrected.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Epstein.
MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Can I ask if the constituencies that exist in the province at the moment where there is some significant Acadian concentration of population have worked in your view, in terms of generating appropriate representation in the Legislature?
MR. GABRIEL LEBLANC: Yes, it has worked. What we are really fearing is that if we are amalgamated with another section of a riding, we will lose our political presence in Nova Scotia. That's the concern expressed by the people.
MR. EPSTEIN: Are you talking about all three of the predominant constituencies?
[3:30 p.m.]
MR. GABRIEL LEBLANC: One in particular, Richmond, because I feel strongly, for example, if we were to become one with Port Hawkesbury, it would really dilute the Acadian presence in that riding and therefore minimize our political presence in Nova Scotia. That's the point that I am bringing to you. Yes, it has worked. Clare is well represented, as well as Argyle; Cheticamp is also well represented. But we would really like to keep Richmond the way it is if at all possible.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? Well, thank you very much, sir, for your time.
MR. GABRIEL LEBLANC: Thank you for having me.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Our next presenter is Mr. André LeBlanc. Have a seat, sir.
MR. ANDRÉ LEBLANC: I am here presenting today as a private citizen. The reason I am here is that I am a citizen of Richmond County. I was recently married to a registered nurse and we make our home in Richmond County and we're very proud to be there.
My hope is that the commission has a broad base of youth and Acadian representation because the reason that we came home to Richmond County is because of my roots primarily. I enjoy the culture, the lifestyle of a rural area and I think that Richmond County in its current boundaries represents the Acadian people well and it's a riding which I am comfortable with. I know my MLA, my MLA knows me. I don't think things can be just based strictly on numbers. Many people in reports talk about how many numbers of voters there are - I don't think it should be based on that. I think it goes far deeper than that.
Richmond is my home and I can't imagine the boundaries being any different than what they are.
That's my main focus , that the commission has a solid base of youth on it because we are the future. There are many people like myself and my wife who decided to stay in rural Nova Scotia and help their community. We are actively involved in the community as well. I think it's important that we maintain the boundaries as such so that we can maintain our identity as a people in Richmond County.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for that, sir. Questions from the committee?
Just a curiosity question, are you originally from Richmond County?
MR. ANDRÉ LEBLANC: Yes, I am.
MR. CHAIRMAN: When did you move back to Richmond?
MR. ANDRÉ LEBLANC: My wife was working in Halifax for the QE II and we moved home and now she's working in the public health system. Last December we purchased a home in Richmond County, so we're now set up.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? Thank you very much, sir. Our next presenter is Mr. Richard Cotton, Warden for the County of Richmond. Good day, your honour. (Interruptions)
MR. RICHARD COTTON: Committee members, I haven't a written statement - my remarks will be strictly off the cuff. I certainly want to encourage the commission, when you are setting up your terms of reference, to take into consideration not only our Acadian community, which is the reason why I am here today, I want to make sure that the Acadian representation, not only on your commission, but also with the seats that are already set up with that Acadian population, are not diluted. The same goes with the seat that presently is in Preston which services the Black community and I certainly would encourage you to look at the Native situation. I certainly would also encourage you to sit down with the Native community before making those selections. Sometimes we speak for minority rights, but there are times when we do speak when we don't really know what those minorities want.
When you're setting up your commission, I would encourage you to at least have Acadian, Black and Native representation on that commission. I think that would be a good way of making sure that their presence is felt and that any deliberations or any changes, they will be aware of them first hand.
In Richmond County, we have a mix of population from all sorts of cultures, but predominantly, we are Acadian. The communities of West Arichat, Arichat, Petit-de-Grat, certainly have been Acadian for years and continue to be. Even when people like myself move in and start marrying some of the young ladies - and that was a few years ago - but nevertheless they are predominantly. The Village of Louisdale, which is my home community, is predominantly Acadian, as is the Village of River Bourgeois and the Village of L'Ardoise. When I use the word village, just so Paul doesn't correct me, they're not registered villages, but we always refer to them (Interruption) They're communities, I guess would be a better word, Paul, exactly.
We think that when you're looking at how you're going to distribute the voting power and we do know that population plays a strong role in that and well it should. It is, after all, a representation by population. But I would encourage you that when you look at that - and not in deference to Mr. Parent and his idea of going down to 40 seats - but I would encourage you to go the other way.
I hope the MLAs don't believe that the public out there would want fewer MLAs. I can tell you that a few years ago we decided that maybe the best thing for Richmond County was to have fewer councillors because we figured that was what the public would want. We decided to downsize, went public and got absolutely pounded because they wanted the representation as it was.
I would say to you that particularly in rural Nova Scotia - I have never lived in Halifax, although I have three children up there, at least in the metro area - the MLAs are a very important part of those rural ridings. If you have to redistribute seats, I would encourage you to rather add on to the population of growing areas than take away what's already there. I think that's very important when you're looking at your considerations. The public may well have some problems with spending money in other areas, but for representation, I don't think you're going to get too many of the public - I am not saying there won't be any, there are always some, that will look at representation as not being a good investment as far as being represented in Halifax. So, I would encourage you to look at that.
When you're looking at reconfiguring seats, I know there are three seats now that are predominantly Acadian because they have the majority of the Acadian population, those being in Argyle, Clare and Richmond. I would certainly encourage that those seats be kept in their present form. Certainly, the community of Preston, again, I certainly haven't consulted with the Black communities in the rural areas, but that community at least has had the opportunity of electing a person who they feel can represent them. I guess it's another good example, too, that as long as people have a choice, it's not about being Acadian, as we well know in the situation with Preston, it's electing a person who they feel confident will represent their points of view.
Even in my own situation. Even though I married an Acadian and have some Acadian blood in me, I am disappointed to say that I have never been able to converse in the French language. That doesn't mean that I am not sincere and don't believe very strongly in Acadian rights; I can tell you that I do.
MR. MACEWAN: Michel's the best coach you can get on that.
MR. COTTON: He's too busy hollering at me, though, to teach me French.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Learning to scream in French is not everything it's . . .
MR. COTTON: Actually, I guess you need that kind of back and forth to appreciate where each of us stands.
That is my presentation. I think it is disappointing that the terms of reference aren't laid out to cover the minorities, and maybe that is the way you start. This is my first boundary hearing and maybe that is the way it starts. I think it is very important that they be part of the mandate that is sent down to the commission and it is very important to make sure that you have commission members who would actually be able to speak to those rights.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
Mr. MacDonald.
HON. RODNEY MACDONALD: Thank you, Richie, for your comments. I just have one question and it is in regard to the number on the commission. You mentioned an Acadian representative, a Black, and a Native. I was just wondering, do you see a certain number on this commission that you would see as appropriate; six, seven, more or less?
MR. COTTON: If you are going to have those three representatives, I would think you would want to have a minimum of about 12 people on the commission and I would suggest it be no higher than 15. I think you also have to look at youths and a good cross-section of the voting electorate in Nova Scotia. Again, I do concur with the fact that I think it is very important that nobody involved in any political process be involved with that commission, except maybe to guide and set the rules. But as far as deliberations go, I guess not only does justice have to be done but it has to appear to be done too, so I would suggest that politicians not be involved.
MR. MACEWAN: There's who we had the last time we did this, 10 years ago; there were six of them and you see who they are.
MR. COTTON: Okay, I will read them out to you: Dr. Ronald Landes, Chairman; the Honourable C. Denne Burchell; Carolyn Thomas; Dr. Jennifer Smith; Mrs. Alphonsine Saulnier; and Mr. Sherman Zwicker; a pretty good gender balance too.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Samson.
MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Thank you, Richie, for your presentation. One of the comments - and it was interesting to hear you make reference to the amount of seats there should be, with Mr. Parent's comments, and then it was interesting to hear Peter O'Brien's comments, head of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. I very seldom agree with anything Mr. O'Brien said and certainly didn't think very much of his comments. One of the comments he made was that in his opinion, half of the MLAs have nothing to do. I am just curious, from your experience, both as a Warden and being involved in public service the time you have been - even having served as executive assistant to a minister - what is your view of what is entailed as an MLA and what kind of workload is involved?
MR. COTTON: Well, certainly the comment that if there are half the MLAs with nothing to do, then I would suggest the electorate should kick them out of office and put some people in who are willing to work. It is not that the work is not there, it just means they are not doing their jobs. So if they are idle, it is not because the work is not there; they are just not doing their jobs.
Most certainly in my view, and again, it is difficult to speak on the urban areas, but there is almost a balance there. When you go out in the rural areas, the population is less, the geography is more, and there are usually more issues that come to the MLA's table. I know Michel and I have talked a lot because a lot of the time they end up coming to the councillors' table and we have to get hold of the MLA, and we have that kind of close working relationship.
In the metro area, maybe the need on a per-person basis is not as great because you do the opposite there, but the population is usually so much greater that it evens out. We have, let's say, 8,100 voters in Richmond County, and I know I was talking with Ms. McGrath before this started and she has around 20,000 to 25,000 in hers. I can tell you that if you represent that many people you have a lot of work to do. Also, if you are representing 8,000 people in a rural area, you have a lot of work to do.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I would have to agree wholeheartedly with you, Warden.
Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Cotton, for the presentation. Just going through the terms of reference for the last Provincial Boundaries Commission, I see that primary factors to be considered were minority representation, as you mentioned, or at least the opportunity
for minority representation. I think we have heard that time and time again thus far into these hearings, and we were in Sydney, of course, yesterday afternoon and last evening.
I think Preston - just going from recall - when that riding was formed, the first provincial representative was a Black person, the second was a Black person and now we have a white person, so to speak, but the opportunity is there. I think that is important and in the terms of reference, minority representation - including, in particular, representation of the Acadian, Black and Mi'kmaq peoples of Nova Scotia - that was drafted up by the committee similar to this committee. We have heard that time and time again and it is very timely . . .
MR. COTTON: . . . and that you will include that in these terms of reference too. You are very right. It just means the opportunity for the minorities to elect a person that they choose; it does not mean they have to be Acadian, Black, or Native. It just means they have to be comfortable with whom they are voting for to make sure that they represent their points of view.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, something else that doesn't receive a lot of attention, perhaps, and consideration is the incredible strain that representation puts on families, quite frankly, and you would know that, irrespective of government level. To somehow increase that workload, I think - perhaps it is parochial - I honestly believe it would be very difficult for families. We are kind of from the Beatles era, my wife and I, and many times she has commented that it is an 'eight-day-a-week job,' so I think that is still relevant here in the millennium.
MR. COTTON: I couldn't concur with you more. I think that MLAs, if they are doing their jobs, indeed have a lot of work to do.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Samson has a question or comment.
MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Just a follow-up, I guess. We have referred to Preston and to the situation there. I am just curious, Richie - I know you have a good history and Gabriel might have been able to go a bit further back than you can - but I guess just for the committee's purpose, could you indicate, going backward in Richmond County as MLAs, if there are ones you know of who have been Acadian and those who were not Acadian?
[3:45 p.m.]
MR. COTTON: Certainly Richie wasn't an Acadian, he was of Scottish-Irish descent. Mr. LeBlanc was Acadian. Mr. Doucet was certainly Acadian, but from the neighbouring community of Inverness, who represented Richmond for years.
AN HON. MEMBER: What about Earl Urquhart?
MR. COTTON: And Earl - we most certainly know Earl's roots and they weren't Acadian, but certainly he was in touch with the Acadian community and represented them well. After that, Michel, I am with Brooke in the Beatles era. That is as far as I am going to go back. The rest I've read in the history books. But Earl was representative, I think, when I was starting to get a bit of a taste in politics in Richmond County, and that was a few years ago. Paul might remember.
MR. MACEWAN: It was 1963.
MR. SAMSON: You must have been in the loop for 20 years by then, were you? (Laughter)
MR. MACEWAN: No, I hadn't been elected yet. (Interruptions)
MR. COTTON: You see, Rodney, that is the advantage of being a little bit older. Michel doesn't remember some things I remember but I remember things that he did when he was younger. (Laughter) And he grew, and look where he is today.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other comments?
Mr. Epstein.
MR. EPSTEIN: I was wondering if you have any thoughts about county boundaries and how they ought to be considered, if at all, by an Electoral Boundaries Commission. Of course you have here an example of a constituency that does cross the county boundaries on a street.
MR. COTTON: Well, not in Richmond, but certainly in the situation with Port Hawkesbury, they cross over into Guysborough. I know there are Port Hawkesbury people who are here to speak to that situation, but I certainly would understand some trepidation that people in Port Hawkesbury would have because it is across the Strait and not on this side. But having said that, most certainly I don't think it has to be an absolute fact, but when you take into consideration - and let's talk about Richmond, which I am most familiar with - the Acadian population in the county boundary, it is a natural match as far as I am concerned. There may be other counties where the population is such that you need more than one or two or three seats. At that point in time there may be some juggling that needs to be done, but certainly where there is one member alone for a county, then the county boundaries should be respected also.
MR. EPSTEIN: What about Port Hawkesbury, surely it stands out as a bit of an anomaly to have it tucked in with Guysborough the way it is?
MR. COTTON: That is a situation that I am sure the people from Port Hawkesbury are going to address, and I am sure they can address it much more ably than I.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think he is ducking. (Laughter)
MR. EPSTEIN: Well, it is fairly clear of course that Mr. Cotton is ducking the issue, and that is fine if he wants to. The trouble is, of course, if you duck the issue, then of course you have nothing to say about it. That is the issue, so I will ask it again.
MR. COTTON: Yes, but I think I have made my case. There are times, you know, when there are two good choices, and unfortunately you can't make both choices so you have to go with the one that carries the weight, and in this case I think the Acadian community would carry the weight on that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacEwan, you had a comment?
MR. MACEWAN: Well I am happy they are interested in Port Hawkesbury, because that is why we are here today, but Port Hawkesbury is not part of Richmond County, it is part of Inverness County. I just made that point for what it is worth. Now I want to say this, Mr. Chairman, before we conclude with this particular witness. Mr. Cotton is one of the most knowledgeable and attentive people to the provincial political system that I know of. I remember a couple of years ago, in the summer, we had a meeting down at the creamery one night on the waterfront - I think it was the Community Services Committee - we had one witness who showed up that night to testify, and it was Warden Cotton. That is who it was. All the members travelled from all around Nova Scotia to go there to hear him and I think it was an effort well made. I do.
Now I just wonder, perhaps as a question - I am supposed to conclude these remarks with a question - was it the Community Services Committee that you came to attend that night?
MR. COTTON: Exactly, Paul. I had some very strong views on some of the - I guess at that time the government was looking at some changes that I felt weren't in the best interests of some people who were on social services. I wouldn't say I was angry at that meeting, but I was very concerned with some of the proposed changes, because I didn't think it reflected young people within our community who were being cut back through no fault of their own. So I had some problems with that.
MR. MACEWAN: You made a good point then and you are making it again here today.
MR. TAYLOR: Was that creamery an operating creamery? We have one in Musquodoboit. I wanted to visit it, Paul.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, the Select Committee on Workers' Compensation went to the creamery too. Mr. Corbett and I had our chance at the creamery. Mr. Samson, were you there that night?
MR. MICHEL SAMSON: No, I wasn't there that night.
MR. CHAIRMAN: No, I didn't think you were.
MR. MACEWAN: You probably saw Warden Cotton there too.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well thank you very much, warden. Our next presenter is Gerry MacDonald and he is from, it says Chamber of Commerce, but I assume that is Port Hawkesbury or . . .
MR. GERRY MACDONALD: Strait area.
MR. CHAIRMAN: . . . Strait Area Chamber of Commerce. Okay, thank you.
MR. GERRY MACDONALD: I just have a few brief comments. I don't take issue with any of the previous presenters. The terms of reference for the commission from the chamber of commerce perspective is that we are a non-partisan organization and our goal is business development as a primary concept. I think that if the terms of reference for this commission took into account potential community development, and from a narrow perspective, narrower than that, business growth in an area, it would be an important consideration to take into account.
There is a buzzword called "trade corridor," which is in some of the material that comes to our chamber from other chamber organizations. If you look at the map on the wall there, you can see that in terms of eastern Nova Scotia, it is obvious that the Canso Causeway is going to have to be part of a trade corridor that goes from northern Cape Breton through to other parts of the country. If you had the terms of reference for the Electoral Boundaries Commission taking into account the potential business development of a community, it would be an important consideration.
I always thought when I moved here - and it will be 30 years, I think, next year - that the Strait area had a great potential. It has been very kind to me on an individual basis and people are getting along quite nicely here. As a matter of fact, I have a building in town and I was courting a tenant and I had a chance to look up the per capita family income for people in the Port Hawkesbury area and it is about $52,000 a year for the entire family, versus an average across the province of about $40,000. But I think we want to build on our strengths and I would like to see that taken into account.
One example of something that this government has done - again not in a partisan way, but just to speak for this community - is they have announced building our new courthouse. I think the potential for the Port Hawkesbury-Strait of Canso immediate region to be a service centre is greatly enhanced by that kind of thing. I think our chances to become a meaningful regional centre would be greatly enhanced by having one government speak with one voice, and that is the motto of the chamber of commerce, "speaking with one voice." If you identify your priorities for development, you can get a lot further. It is no accident that the Halifax region has become one unit in terms of a municipal unit; they can coordinate what they are trying to do.
It was interesting, there is a proposal I think where they are going to get a new overhead crane for container shipping and it is going to cost huge sums of money - $300 million or something like that - well they can prioritize what they are going to do, speak with one voice towards the various governments and try to accomplish that. If we, in the Strait area, instead of being eight or nine municipal units, are more focused and concentrated as one municipal unit, you could have I think, a more-focused approach to the whole matter, and I, from a chamber of commerce perspective, would like to see that taken into account and ask you to make that a strong recommendation with the other ones, again, which I take no issue with. So that is my pitch.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, sir. Questions from the committee. Mr. Samson and then Mr. Epstein.
MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Gerry, I am just curious, as you know and as you have mentioned, Port Hawkesbury does serve as a trade corridor and in many ways provides service to the surrounding communities. I wonder if you could just highlight to us, as far as the chamber of commerce is concerned, where are the communities which are most aligned with the Town of Port Hawkesbury in trade concerns and other sorts of relationships with the town?
MR. GERRY MACDONALD: I can only speak from our chamber's makeup. We have about 165 members, and there are potentially about 300 businesses that do business activity in our region. If you go in the harbour area of the Strait of Canso, it runs past Stora, past what used to be Statia Terminals - they have recently been sold - and you go over around to the Mulgrave side and you include the Aulds Cove area, that is the catch basin that we are talking about. If that area could be caught up in one municipal type - as opposed to having the many municipal areas represented - if it could have more focus, that would be a much better thing and I think it would be an improvement on the present situation. If you included not only municipal reform but provincial reform, and maybe even if you had a wish list, you could go federal. I would like to see that happen for that area.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Epstein.
MR. EPSTEIN: I think my question was more or less along the same line. I wanted to know exactly what your catchment area was for the Strait Area Chamber of Commerce.
MR. GERRY MACDONALD: It includes within a few miles, I guess, essentially the harbour area. That is where we are at.
MR. EPSTEIN: Was I following your suggestion correctly, that you think a commission should consider these kinds of economic areas when . . .
MR. GERRY MACDONALD: Developmental potential would be a number one point, along with Acadian, along with ethnic and minority representation.
MR. EPSTEIN: Would it be more effective from the perspective of the chamber of commerce if this were considered when it comes to any redistribution of municipal boundaries, rather than provincial boundaries?
MR. GERRY MACDONALD: Both. I would like to see both.
MR. EPSTEIN: I understand. I am wondering if there is one that is perhaps more important.
MR. GERRY MACDONALD: We have been trying very hard in our chamber. One of our particular goals this past year is to have an oil and gas committee. We are looking at trying to springboard opportunities for local businesses to bid on contracts that may be available for the oil and gas industry. It is coming onshore in Goldboro, Guysborough County, and we would like to see that grow and develop and improve.
It is quite challenging. I know that right now we have had several meetings with municipal representatives. Richie has been very supportive of that and has attended all of the ones we have organized. There are nine municipal units. To try to get nine municipal units to all agree on something is pretty tough. From a provincial MLA perspective, there is Richmond being involved in the heavy industrial area of Point Tupper; there is the Guysborough-Port Hawkesbury area; we touch on Antigonish and then we go to Rodney's area when you get up towards Port Hastings and beyond. I would like to see more focus and fewer people to have to deal with and fewer interests to try to make organizational efforts a little easier.
MR. EPSTEIN: I take it from your perspective it doesn't matter that Port Hawkesbury, as a component of a provincial constituency, crosses the Strait and goes into Guysborough County.
[4:00 p.m.]
MR. GERRY MACDONALD: No, not from a business perspective it doesn't. If anything, we would like to see it become a little bit larger and include part of Antigonish, if possible. Look for the whole area as being one area that has enormous business potential.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your presentation, Mr. MacDonald. You certainly do bring the business perspective to the committee's ear. I reside in the Halifax Regional Municipality, as does Mary Ann, and that particular area of the province is very diverse. I guess as a former Halifax County Councillor, I can wear that hat. I felt that when we were part of the county, the diversities were recognized and when we were subsequently amalgamated - not just me but I hear my constituents complain that we don't seem to have that same balance of social, political representation and business balance that we had previously.
I am just wondering, from the chamber's perspective - and I understand you are representing the chamber - do you give consideration to the social, if you will, and the political representation implications to the type of economic development corridor you are talking about. Does the chamber give that type of matter any consideration?
MR. GERRY MACDONALD: Not in any formal way that I can think of to respond to your question. Let's be real straight up and candid here; the province has no money in terms of doing a project on their own initiative in a meaningful way, such as highway, such as expanding a railway, such as putting in meaningful infrastructure. Frankly, I don't think they do; they are having a tough job balancing their budget and from a business perspective, that is a really important goal - I believe it is anyway - and I applaud their efforts in terms of trying to do that.
The only people who have any money are the federal people. From this area, when you go to try to put your hat in hand to seek support for a particular project, you are dealing with ECBC and, in some overlapping areas, with ACOA. If you have a coordinated approach, you speak with one voice, you have a prioritizing of your agendas, what you want to achieve. You are going to go to those folks. I think it is easier to do, from an organizational perspective, and it may be that some of the social diversity gets trampled but life is a series of choices; you take your best shot, if I can answer that way, no offence to anyone.
MR. TAYLOR: No, I appreciate the answer, it is just that as people, we are all different. Some people put more importance on social considerations than maybe business. I guess that is what makes the province go around.
MR. GERRY MACDONALD: Yes, you bet.
MR. TAYLOR: Thank you.
MR. GERRY MACDONALD: I appreciate the opportunity, unless there are other questions.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think that is it. Thank you very much, sir.
MR. GERRY MACDONALD: Thank you, I appreciate it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Our next presenter is His Worship, Mayor Billy Joe MacLean, from the Town of Port Hawkesbury.
Mayor MacLean.
MR. WILLIAM JOSEPH MACLEAN: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. First of all I would like to welcome everyone here to Port Hawkesbury, to the best little town in Canada. In saying that, I was down in Sydney today and on the way back I was trying to decide what is the best approach here. I know that today you are here looking for the terms of reference as to what the Electoral Boundaries Commission would really look at.
I think the reason a lot of people from Port Hawkesbury are here today is to say, please don't let happen what happened before, and the injustice that was done - I call it a political injustice. We have a lot of history in Inverness County. We have had a lot of fun politically, in the days of Allan J. and Dr. Jim and John Archie MacKenzie and Clyde Nunn and Billie D.R. MacLean, the times of Urquhart and all the rest of them. It was a lot of fun in the competition of political voting and getting along. Some of that is not there today, the fun is not as much anymore.
In saying that, Port Hawkesbury-Port Hastings was one of the hubs even back in those days of political wherewithal in Inverness County. I am going to convey to you what I have been told happened in the past. What scares me is you have had presentations today and let me make it clear that I respect the minorities and what they are trying to attain and the coverage they want to get and representation and that is fair. In saying that, Port Hawkesbury-Port Hastings was used because of that reason. It was suggested by a member of the commission back in those days that in order for a French Acadian to be given the chance to be elected in Inverness County, they would have to reduce the numbers significantly to make it in balance. So they came down the coast, and when they got to Port Hastings they said, fine, there are 4,000 votes there. Now, if we leave it here, a French Acadian has a chance in the north, and that's understandable.
What do we do with Port Hawkesbury-Port Hastings? Somebody suggested, why not put them in Richmond. Somebody said, well, that's going to upset the apple cart in Richmond because we have French Acadian there too - thank God it wasn't French in Guysborough or we would have wound up in Truro - so as a result we were tossed.
I really truly believe as mayor, and talking to our people here, that there has to be a community of interest, there has to be an economy of scales they call it, or whatever, but just look at it on face value. Our district planning commission takes up Inverness, Richmond, Victoria and Port Hawkesbury. Our regional development board takes up Inverness, hopefully Richmond soon, Port Hawkesbury and we are together in the same development. Mulgrave was here for awhile, but we decided they were better off joining Guysborough. I believe when the president of the chamber of commerce was here, you were asking questions about what's your area. He was meaning, I think, the area of business, because the shopping district goes all the way to Cheticamp, Tracadie and Mulgrave - Isle Madame is a big customer of our business people - so it takes in a broad area, but the community of interest for people historically is Inverness County.
I don't think there would have been that big an objection if they had tossed us to Richmond County, because most people in Port Hawkesbury have a good relationship with Richmond County and know a lot of people there, have a lot of friends there, have a lot of relations there; in fact I have a summer home there. Now, what happened, everybody wants to have minorities on the new commission, and I have no objection as long as they don't use us again as the pawns to create a minority seat. They have taken 4,000 people - more people - 4,000 voters, and said to them because you don't fit in the minority, then we're going to take you and put you somewhere where you don't want to go. Notwithstanding we have a lot of friends in Guysborough, but I don't know a soul in Ecum Secum. I don't know anybody up around Manchester, or St. Mary's, and if you put me over there, I will get lost because it's a vast geographic county with a lot of fine people.
So when I say to the commission, to you, in setting the parameters for discussion have the minorities there, but don't penalize a community for the sake of minority. Don't penalize, particularly Port Hawkesbury-Port Hastings, and I would request that the wrong that was done in the past be rectified in the future by that same commission because, and I quote former Premier Russell MacLellan, who said to me one day: That has to be fixed up. There was an injustice done. The existing Premier told me the same thing and many members of the House. Our citizens here, if you ask them on the street what they would like to do, they would say put us in Inverness, put us in Richmond; there's a lot of political fun too. It's not the same as it used to be.
We used to work the polls in Whycocomagh, River Denys for example, Orangedale, and Marble Mountain. They all attached themselves to this community of Port Hawkesbury for their groceries, for their doctors, for their hockey, and even the minor league hockey system, it's all attached to Richmond and Inverness. So the community of interest has to be
a significant part of the Electoral Boundaries Commission. Population, somebody said to me today, if you want to throw it in there, that Richmond County has 7,600 votes. If you take our 4,000 votes and put it back in Inverness, you could split the county again and still have 7,500 votes north and south, and the minority in the north gets their seat and we have that division where Billy Joe ran. Anyway, in saying that (Interruption)
No, thank you. (Laughter) Really we have a great town here that we're very proud of and we're very proud of the people who represent us. So we have no axe to grind with any of them who are representing us today, other than the fact that we feel we have an historical attachment to Inverness County - and to Richmond County for that matter - so that the parameters for the Electoral Boundaries Commission, it is important that one be set up by the way in order to cure what has happened in the past.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I have a question, Your Worship. The question would be, do you know if there's been any population change by the positive or negative since 1990-91 in the Town of Port Hawkesbury-Port Hastings area?
MR. WILLIAM JOSEPH MACLEAN: We're up about 1,200 people between the Port Hastings and Port Hawkesbury area.
MR. CHAIRMAN: So it's a growing area of the province.
MR. WILLIAM JOSEPH MACLEAN: Yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That's what I understood to be the case. Thank you. Questions from the committee? I have one other question. I take it that you see the Richmond County and the Inverness County areas as being the natural links with the Town of Port Hawkesbury and Port Hastings?
MR. WILLIAM JOSEPH MACLEAN: Absolutely, absolutely, and by the way, Mr. Minister, thank you very much for the courthouse announcement, that's . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: My pleasure.
MR. WILLIAM JOSEPH MACLEAN: And if you can come along with your support on our civic facility . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Your Worship. Our next presenter is Yvon Samson.
MR. YVON SAMSON: First of all, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to you today. I am speaking as a private citizen although I am also the Chairman of the Conseil Scolaire Acadien Provincial, which can give you a different perspective on how members are elected in such situations and what can happen. In our case,
in the CSAP, entitled parents do elect their representatives other than the normal whole population approach, and I am not contemplating or requesting that you look at that angle, but it's another option that does exist in our Canadian Constitution and one that's being practised today in Nova Scotia.
Of course, I am going to advocate that the boundaries in Nova Scotia remain the same because we feel, and certainly I feel as a representative of Richmond County and as a citizen of Richmond County, that those boundaries should remain and that we continue the way we were. I am very glad that you do have, or you may look at the terms of reference, including the Black, Acadian and Mi'Kmaq communities representation. The Mi'kmaq is quite a challenge since they are scattered all over the province. They are part of constituencies, but they do have a whole collectivity, being that if you put them in the whole structure you may not have a Mi'kmaq representative, so it may present a big challenge in order to ensure that the Mi'kmaq are adequately represented in the House.
[4:15 p.m.]
Being that we have three Acadian representatives, or that we can have an occasion to have three Acadian representatives, it gives a sense of security to our children also, that they know they have someone who can represent their interests, children and the population at large. Also they can aspire to have a certain public life in our province, and that's an important point that should be taken into consideration.
The demographics in our communities have been, Richmond County, in 1951, the majority of the population there was Acadian, 9,000 people; today it is around, those who speak French, 3,600, but people from Acadian origin is around 80 per cent of the population, around 8,000. So you have an assimilation rate that's very important in our community, and from that fact we have to always try to, it's a challenge just to keep pace with that reality that we have to face as a community, and having a voice in the Legislature of Nova Scotia can give us at least an opportunity to voice those concerns and what we feel are important issues to us.
Basically that's what I wanted to tell you about the terms of reference. The composition, I am advocating that an Acadian be there because he can give at least their opinion, his or her opinion - or the community's opinion I should say - if anything has changed within what is actually there today. So it would be an important step that he be there, be it the same composition as it was the last time, six representatives to me is sufficient. You don't need a big body to do that type of work. The importance is that you have an overall consensus in the whole community of Nova Scotia as to what boundaries are going to be there. As for a timeline - as soon as possible. I know you're busy. I am busy just at the school board level, I can imagine what it's like being in the Legislative Assembly. So I wish you luck in there and thank you for giving me the time. I am ready to respond to any questions.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, sir. Questions from the committee?
MR. MACEWAN: All right, if you want to start off with me this time, Mr. Epstein can come second. I agree with you, Mr. Samson, I do, as soon as possible. There are some hurtles that have to be cleared to get there. If we're going to base any determination on the number of people, you know, with a plus or minus tolerance, we first of all have to take a census, and I think that census will get underway this coming summer. Am I right or wrong?
MR. CHAIRMAN: The census was held last summer, but the numbers will be available this spring.
MR. MACEWAN: All right, in the spring. So we have to have those numbers first and then we have to also lay down terms of reference for these commissioners. That's the work of this committee; it is not to divide the map up at all. We will be the victims of that, I suppose, but the terms of reference such as, for example, no constituency shall encompass three counties, just as an example - a hypothetical one - we draw those things up. So if we say that, they have to do it, but we give them all the tolerance we possibly can once we've established that we're going to do this and that.
Now we already have the seats that you're talking about, the Acadian seats, and the riding of Preston which was engineered to make it possible for a Black person to get elected which happened not once, but twice, and now there's another one there, a White person, but three different Parties each had a turn at bat in that succession. So I think it can be felt that experiment, or whatever it was, that experience has worked and I don't think it's too likely to want to see a change of heart now. Having done it 10 years ago and it's an established fact, I can't prejudge the determination of the committee, maybe eight of them will think different than I do on this, but I kind of don't think so. I think they will probably want to keep that the way it is.
I don't know what more than that I can say. I like the thrust of your presentation and it's very well-thought-out. I congratulate you and I don't know just what direction which we'll go, but I am sure that advice like yours will help us.
MR. EPSTEIN: I was very interested in your comment about the assimilation rate and to what extent that is a problem. I am sure it must be, and I am wondering if you can help us out or point us where we might gather information about this. Is there information available?
MR. YVON SAMSON: Yes, we do have the Acadian Federation of Nova Scotia that can certainly provide that information more collectively. You can go riding by riding and I am sure in Clare/Argyle there are associations or groups that can respond to that. The school board also has that information if you so desire to have it.
MR. EPSTEIN: What this really leads to is a question of what's effective in countering it.
MR. YVON SAMSON: That's it.
MR. EPSTEIN: What is effective in countering it?
MR. YVON SAMSON: First, we already did it in the educational sector. I think that did a lot of good even though we had some frustrating moments since 1997, but they're ironed out today and I think the thrust is the recruitment and maintaining those children in our schools. Others are more the social fabric of the community, in trying to provide services and provide opportunities for our kids and kids in immersion to work in a bilingual environment anywhere in Canada and elsewhere around the world. I think we can provide that type of knowledge and expertise within our communities in Nova Scotia, but there's the educational portion, you need to have a good grasp of your language before you learn other languages. That's an important point. The other point is that the community at large must be favourable towards the enhancement of that language and that takes different partnerships within their communities to make that happen.
MR. EPSTEIN: Do you judge the position of the Acadian community in Nova Scotia as being one that's threatened by assimilation at the moment?
MR. YVON SAMSON: Oh my God, we've been threatened since the 1940's. It is the change of the beast; I mean society changes. We had television and radio in English for many years, now we have to reverse that a little bit. I'm not saying we are all assimilated, there are people who do speak French quite well, but there's work to, you don't have to change the society's situation; in other words you have to evolve with it and give the tools to the Acadian communities so that they, while maintaining that language, are able to do the same as anybody else in society. That's basically it.
MR. EPSTEIN: Is there any sign that the situation is stabilizing, or is it still an advance against the preservation of an Acadian culture?
MR. YVON SAMSON: The different tools that the different governments gave us throughout the years, be it the Collège de l'Acadie, the school boards, the court services in French, different things like that are, in fact, helping to make people understand that it's a language that they can use, whereas before it was seen as a language that nobody sees it as being important. The Official Languages Act in the Parliament of Canada did change the situation and, hopefully, one day Nova Scotia will look at that, having a language policy in the province for at least providing services in the Acadian regions and that's an important point.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe those are all our questions. Thank you very much for your presentation, sir.
We have, I believe, one further presenter who's scheduled for this afternoon and that would be Mr. Joe Janega who is a councillor with the Town of Port Hawkesbury. Mr. Janega.
MR. JOSEPH JANEGA: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity. I am going to be brief. I would just like to echo some of the remarks that were made earlier and maybe clarify a few more. As well as being a councillor in the Town of Port Hawkesbury, I am also a business person, and I don't mean to take words out of anybody's mouth, but Gerry spoke earlier and he spoke basically for the chamber of commerce. I don't want anybody to be misled in the sense that he was speaking as a business venture for the total area as far as the electoral boundaries, what he meant to direct, and I mean to clean that up because his wife is going to kill him when he gets home, but anyway I, like Mayor MacLean said, would just like to echo some of those remarks.
An example is to look at that map and see what Guysborough-Port Hawkesbury is. It is a huge, vast area. We represent a small area this side of Cape Breton Island and the remainder is on the other side. We have an elected official - if you look at your first sheet that you passed out today, there are five meetings in the Province of Nova Scotia to review this situation - our elected official is not here; I doubt if there's anybody else from Guysborough County. We've always felt like we were left out in the cold on a lot of things that took place in provincial politics, and I firmly believe that Port Hawkesbury and Port Hastings would be much better served - nothing against the people of Guysborough, I've met some very fine people - but I believe we should belong to Inverness County. (Applause)
MR. CHAIRMAN: I take it then that you're associating yourself with all of His Worship the Mayor's comments, as far as the political history of this particular area of Nova Scotia.
MR. JANEGA: That's correct.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Any questions from other committee members?
MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Thank you, Joe, for that, I figured someone was going to clear up some of Gerry's comments. I know that the mayor gave us a few numbers, but what is the population of Guysborough-Port Hawkesbury? How does it break down between the town and the Municipality of Guysborough?
MR. JANEGA: Guysborough, I don't know the exact figures, that probably changes as we're speaking, they represent probably 65 per cent of the total constituency. (Interruption)
MR. MICHEL SAMSON: It's 10,687? That's from the Municipality of Guysborough? (Interruption) That's total? Okay, so they're about 65 per cent and 35 per cent.
MR. EPSTEIN: Mr. Janega, you suggested that the town properly belongs electorally with Inverness County. His Worship had suggested Inverness County and he offered Richmond County as a second possibility. If you look at the population numbers, Inverness County is already around the average of the number of voters that prevails throughout the province, but it is Richmond County that is substantially below the average. Is that a factor that ought to be considered?
MR. JANEGA: You guys basically make the decisions, but if you're looking for a comment from me, this small rural community, we have Richmond County and Inverness County and we serve basically as a service area for those counties. I personally would like to see constituencies lie within county boundary lines. So, if you're asking for my comment that's one of the reasons why. Business-wise, 60 per cent of my business is in Richmond County. However, I think this is an example we have had - and again I want to qualify, I don't have any hard feelings against the people of Guysborough County - it makes it very difficult with the crossing of the county boundaries to begin with.
MR. EPSTEIN: I understand your point perfectly about Guysborough County, but the question really has to do with contemplating how Port Hawkesbury might tuck into either Inverness or Richmond, if that's the appropriate way to go about it.
MR. JANEGA: For example, municipal politics versus provincial politics. The Town of Port Hawkesbury falls within the confines of Inverness County. A lot of the decisions that are made, for example, especially Port Hastings, which is outside the Town of Port Hawkesbury but within the county lines and serviced by the Municipality of the County of Inverness. Therefore, to say Port Hawkesbury-Port Hastings be put in Richmond County, you would have almost an overlap of municipal politics and county lines. We're not talking just Port Hawkesbury, we're talking Port Hastings and Port Hawkesbury.
MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, councillor, for your presentation. I would like to point out that the member for Guysborough-Port Hawkesbury, unless something unforseen happened, had planned on being here today. As you know, the committee was appointed and MLA Chisholm was not appointed to the select committee, but did ask if he could substitute for the Honourable Jane Purves, Minister of Education. That's the last I heard; unless honourable members heard differently, Ron planned on being at this meeting today and I think it's only fair that should be pointed out.
I was just wondering, the area you represent as a municipal councillor, just for curiosity's sake, how big is it and is it a diverse district?
MR. JANEGA: We don't have wards in the Town of Port Hawkesbury anymore; we do the total town. There are actually two other fellow councillors here with me today, and the mayor.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, sir, for your presentation. I believe those are all our scheduled presenters for this afternoon, unless anyone else has passed their name in in the meantime. We are scheduled to resume at 7:00 p.m. this evening and we encourage any members of the public who wish to take in our proceedings this evening to make themselves available at 7:00 p.m.
With that, we stand adjourned.
[4:30 p.m. The select committee recessed.]
[7:06 p.m. The select committee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Good evening. We are happy for you to be with us here this evening for this meeting of the Select Committee on Establishing an Electoral Boundaries Commission. For the benefit of those people who may not have been here this afternoon, our proceedings are being recorded, and will be transcribed for the benefit of the committee. I have also asked members to introduce themselves and their riding, so people would know who they are and where they are from. I will ask Mr. Epstein to start.
[The members of the select committee introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Unless we have any other business we have a member of the public who wants to present this evening. Our first presenter is Mr. Colin Purcell, who is a private citizen from the Port Hawkesbury area. Mr. Purcell, have a seat at either one of the microphones and whenever you are ready, you can start.
MR. COLIN PURCELL: I thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak here tonight. I thought there would be two or three people from Municipal Affairs, but I have come to find out I have some big, heavyweight members here from three Parties and it was certainly a surprise to me.
I would just like to say I live over in Mulgrave, across the Strait, and a big surprise to us - back, I don't know how many years ago, eight to 10 years ago, the last boundary change - I don't know if we went in with Port Hawkesbury or if Port Hawkesbury came in with us. I don't know just how it happened but it ended up we are with Port Hawkesbury now. I was at an open, political gathering here, an open meeting one time down at the wharf, a lot of the members were there and there was a committee there from Port Hawkesbury who told a fellow who was running for Premier at that time that they didn't want to have anything to do with Mulgrave. He said, I don't mind you hearing this, I am going to tell you we are
here to see whoever to say this. I said look, we were quite pleased the way the thing was before they changed it. We didn't ask to go in with Port Hawkesbury and we were quite pleased.
My hope would be that they put Guysborough and Antigonish together. Antigonish has been closer to us over the years and other people have told me this, this is not just my idea, other people who I have talked to about it said the same thing. They thought it would be more convenient for us - if we have to go in with somebody - to go in with Antigonish.
Other than that, there is one other thing I will tell you members, especially the fellows who have been in the House for some years, you can walk from the Causeway down to Sand Point or from the Causeway down to Bear Island, that is the entrance to the Strait, or you can fly down or drive down. For some unknown reason to me, all the industry is on the Cape Breton side of the Strait. I think maybe the Cape Breton Development Corporation may have had a lot to do with it. But anyway, we are trying to get people to see both sides of the Strait.
We have been trying for 40 years, since 1961 - and we haven't gotten anybody to look over there yet. But it may come through circumstances.
We have Sable over in Goldsboro but there are two Guysborough Counties; there is a St. Marys and a Guysborough end of it. We have some industry in the St. Marys area there, now if we can get a little bit down this end of the province we will have it made. But that is not boundaries.
I would appreciate it if you people would - and I have talked to about 10 people regarding this and they told me that Antigonish would be the logical place for us to go in with, if there is someplace for us to go in. So, I thank you very much, that is all I have to say.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. There may be some questions, if that would be okay, Mr. Purcell. Sometimes members have questions.
MR. PURCELL: Oh yes, go ahead.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any questions?
MR. PAUL MACEWAN: Now, do you want a question? I recall when I was going to college, I knew a professor by the name of Dr. John Stewart, he is now a Senator, I believe, or is he retired?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: He is retired.
MR. MACEWAN: He is retired, well anyway, he taught at St. F.X. Shortly afterwards he ran and was elected to Parliament and the name of the riding he represented was Antigonish-Guysborough, that was the constituency. So you are absolutely right, there
is a long-standing, historical connection between those two counties and they have been jointly represented by one Member of Parliament, until the recent redistribution that changed everything.
MR. PURCELL: Dr. John Stewart was well-liked and well-respected, that is for sure. He was a good MP.
MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, if I may, I think Dr. Stewart stepped down so Allan J. MacEachen could run back in the 1960's.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that right?
MR. MACKINNON: That was when Cape Breton Highlands - Canso was created, yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.
MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Purcell. One of the factors that the previous Boundaries Commission looked at was the community of interest. Part of our mandate is to develop terms of reference for the Commission, which will be made up - as Michel said earlier today - of people who are not politicians and we trust will be fully independent of the political system.
Community interest - in my mind, at least and it may not be shared by all my colleagues but I think - is extremely important. Community interest, community history is recognized in ridings and I think to a pretty good degree today, we have ridings where communities of interest are recognized.
MR. PURCELL: I certainly appreciate that. I should have said that I have a hearing problem and I am only hearing about half of what you say. I was going to say, Ronnie Chisholm is well up to date on all the problems with the boundaries. I know Ronnie well enough to say that anything he would recommend would also be good for our area. Ronnie represents everybody. I had asked Ronnie one time to do some little thing and he didn't seem too promising at the time, but good Lord, afterward he not only looked into everything I said, he made it happen. I think Ronnie is well up to date on all the Mulgrave doings regarding boundaries.
Do you have a population you have to make, do you have to have a certain amount of population to reach each constituency?
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think there is an average population per constituency but then one of the issues our committee will have to deal with is, if we are going to specify, for example, a variation you are allowed. So those are the kinds of issues this committee is going to look at in determining the terms of reference.
MR. PURCELL: I see. They put our federal riding in with Pictou County - put Pictou County in with Guysborough and Antigonish, as you fellows know. I think we should go that way provincially too, towards Antigonish for the time being, put Antigonish in with Guysborough. Other than shopping, the people of Mulgrave come to Port Hawkesbury to shop but it seems that for everything else Antigonish is the main place to go. Thank you very much.
[7:15 p.m.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Purcell. I am not sure, I don't believe we have any other members of the public who . . .
MR. MACEWAN: Here's one. Here she comes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, good. Come forward, madam, have a seat. If you could just identify yourself.
MS. ANN HUGHES: My name is Anne Hughes. I am Past President of the Guysborough-Port Hawkesbury Liberal Association. I have been involved, pretty well since the boundaries have changed, in the Liberal Association for the Guysborough-Port Hawkesbury area and it has been a total and absolute disaster. Other than human beings, as far as being a constituency, it's too diverse an area economically and in every other way, the tradition of the people, the culture, the interest politically, which has been the heart and soul in the Guysborough area as well as the Port Hawkesbury area, but when you put them together, it just does not blend.
I have been driving the politicians crazy for the last number of years, trying to get them to see the error of their ways, and at one point in time I met one of the gentlemen who sat on the last Electoral Boundaries Commission. He politely told me that Port Hawkesbury had been obviously left out, but no one had noticed that it was left out and they had to answer to the commission at the very end of their mandate and they put Port Hawkesbury with Guysborough County for no other reason than we were forgotten.
I was quite disturbed by that and I believe it because Guysborough always wanted to be, and has so many more traditions with the people of Antigonish County and Pictou County, and Port Hawkesbury has strong traditions with Inverness County and with Richmond County in the idea that the industries on the Port Hawkesbury side were all in Richmond County.
I feel that we, as constituents and as constituencies across the province, have lost a lot because we've lost our traditional interest in politics. We have lost our people, not just Liberals, not just Progressive Conservatives, not just NDPers, or not just individual people, they have lost their desire to be involved and I think it's because of the boundaries. I think that we've lost a lot and I think that people are discouraged. I think that they are being misdirected in such a way as that they cannot seem to get their message across.
I think that it has to be seriously looked at both federally and provincially and I feel that if you don't really take places like Port Hawkesbury, places like the Sydney area, I mean when you look at Guysborough-Port Hawkesbury, and when you honestly tell somebody that our boundary is the Halifax County line - I mean seriously, the Halifax County line. It takes us three hours to drive there. How do you expect your MLAs to have some knowledge of what's going on in Sheet Harbour and what's going on in Port Hastings? It's not possible. It's not possible to get to know your constituents; it's not possible to visit the areas; and it's not possible to lobby properly for funding.
It's unbelievable that we can have just a bottom line of numbers, because there's industry to take into consideration, there's culture to take into consideration, and there are your constituents to take into consideration. There has to be a better way to do it than the way it is right now. I think that when you're looking at people to go on your commission, I think that you have to seriously look at knowledgeable people who have been involved, not necessarily politically, but at least have been touched by the errors of the ways of the last commission when they changed this around. Go for people with a knowledge of their province and of the constituents and of the culture of the area, and the economic culture, economic society.
MR. CHAIRMAN: On which side of the Strait do you live on?
MS. HUGHES: I keep telling people I am on the red line in the middle of the Strait because I've had to walk that line now for the last 10 years. I am from Port Hawkesbury. I am originally from Port Hawkesbury. I've lived away from here for a number of years, but I've walked that line in the middle of the Strait for 10 years and it's not easy. I know Mr. Chisholm would probably be able to say it's not easy. It's not easy because you have to know your areas and it's impossible in areas like that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Questions? Mr. Samson.
MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Yes. Anne, thank you for your presentation, and I think it's important. I was asked by the media earlier, and I think it's important to point out that the concerns we've heard today about the riding of Guysborough-Port Hawkesbury are in no way reflective of the current member, or any previous member, and I think that's important to point out.
MS. HUGHES: Absolutely, it's the boundaries.
MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Exactly and I know, Anne, that you had these same concerns when Ray White was serving as the MLA, even as a Liberal MLA, and I know that the residents in the town here have expressed those concerns for the last 10 years since the decision was made on this. Just a question and I certainly know, and I am aware of some of the problems that, you know Port Hawkesbury was always very active in politics, both provincial and federal, and I guess you've taken a double hit because you've taken a hit in your provincial boundary and you've taken a hit in your federal boundary in that, along with Richmond, we're in a new riding of Bras d'Or and we've lost Cape Breton Highlands-Canso, which we were all under at that time.
I am curious if you could just highlight that, the loss from the political participation, but I am also curious if anyone has been keeping notes of even voter participation because, if I am not mistaken, I seem to remember that in the last election for some reason the town itself, here, had a low voter turnout also.
MS. HUGHES: Had a low voter turnout, absolutely, and that has been consistent across the federal and provincial constituency. You're only cutting off your nose to spite your face if you don't take it as serious, as constituencies. We really see it because we're at ground zero, we're here, we know, we see it. We're dealing with the people and the MLAs are dealing with the people. It's not possible, with the diversities, to ever possibly get it all together in a constituency like the Bras d'Or riding and also Guysborough-Port Hawkesbury. It's just not possible and, please, take it seriously, get good people who know what's going on and, for God's sake, get them to know where their towns are and their villages before they get on this commission.
MR. MICHEL SAMSON: I guess just to add to your argument, and I certainly know your history and your involvement, Anne, but I guess just for the rest of the committee members to appreciate your presentation - and I don't want you to get mad at me for in any way indicating your age or anything - how long have you been involved, yourself directly, in the political system here in Port Hawkesbury?
MS. HUGHES: Well, since I've come back in the last 20 years, and my family before that, so we've always been involved politically in both federal and provincial, and it's something, especially after living away from here and coming back, that I can take a step back and look at it in a different light and I really feel very strongly that what I am seeing now is something that - and I've talked at every occasion with people from other constituencies across this province, right from Yarmouth all the way along, and I've heard so many people say the same thing. You think you're alone; you should be in our constituency, and that's it. I know we are not sitting here as Guysborough - Port Hawkesbury, hey look at us, we are the only ones with this problem. I understand that it's across the whole province, we do have to take note of it and we have to be very serious about our federal and
provincial. If you want your people involved - and everybody must notice that the young people are not as involved. If you don't get your traditional Parties back together as far as interest in your constituencies, you are going to lose more than you are going to gain.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You said you lived in another part of Nova Scotia, or did you move back?
MS. HUGHES: I lived in Prince Edward Island, I lived in Quebec, so I've really seen politics in the 1970's in Quebec.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That's great. Yes, you sure have. I guess I have one final question. With respect to Port Hawkesbury, and you would obviously know the Port Hawkesbury situation best, you have got the Counties of Richmond and Inverness, and of course Port Hawkesbury is technically part of the County of Inverness. Which community of interest do you feel is the greatest or is it the same for both? Do you have any feelings on that?
MS. HUGHES: Well, that is kind of a hard question now in comparison, if you had asked me that seven years ago, I would have said absolutely it's Inverness County. If you asked the old-time people who are involved they'll say traditionally and every other way that it's Inverness County. This is my personal opinion here that Richmond County is traditionally Acadian and they have to be recognized for that. It's not all Acadian but they have a traditional Acadian population.
Of course today, Port Hawkesbury is more diverse than what it used to be and I mean now we are pretty well all in the same boat when it comes down to the economic end of it and the industrial end of it there. So you would say mostly that it would be more traditional for it to be back as Inverness but I think that is something that would have to be strongly worked out between the people of Richmond Country and what their honest in-their-heart feelings are about what they would prefer to be. There is a lot of diversity out there and it's the same for the people in Guysborough County and I had to recognize that very early when I was involved that they are more fishing and farming and lumber and we're not.
It's very hard when you get a meeting together and you get all these people together and they are pushing because they need their summer employment and they need their seasonal work and we're here with quadruple salaries from industry and it's very hard to sit at the same table and argue over what's important to go to your MLA with and what to demand from government. It's very, very difficult. You would get a little more of that with Inverness County and Richmond because a lot of them work at the industries or have something to do with companies that are related to industry. Like I say, that's a hard question, it truly is, to be honest.
[7:30 p.m.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? Thank you very much for taking the time to be here this evening. I don't believe we have any other presentations this evening - yes? (Interruption)
Mr. MacKay would you like to come forward?
MR. EDWARD MACKAY: I am Eddie MacKay. I would suggest that the new committee be made up of twelve people, six MLAs who know the geography and voting pattern very well and possibly people from outside the Halifax area who are more familiar with the concerns about politics. We are very happy with Ronnie in Port Hawkesbury. He is doing a top-notch job (Interruption) and I am 100 per cent confident that Michel doesn't have to shun Port Hawkesbury to get elected, he can stand up there with the rest of them and get elected. I'm sure it doesn't matter if you are French or English, whoever is the best guy is going to get elected and will represent them very well whatever they do. If they are French or English, there shouldn't be any worries about the background. Whoever is the best representative is going to win the job. Usually when you go making up ridings, one year it might be good like when Dr. Chuck MacNeil was here. He lost his seat the next time - Port Hawkesbury primarily went Tory for him - went bad and so it didn't last.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thanks for taking the time. Are there any further questions from the committee? Well, thank you very much, Mr. MacKay, for your suggestion about the numbers. I believe those are all our presenters this evening. I'd like to thank the members.
MS. ALLENA MACDONALD: I don't have a presentation. I just wonder if you would mind telling us when the committee will come out with . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure, for the benefit of the members of the public, the committee has three more public meetings scheduled. They are scheduled for this coming Monday evening in Yarmouth, the same hours as here, 3:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. to completion. Then Tuesday in Truro and then following that, at the Legislature building in Halifax on next Thursday evening and again the same hours at all three meetings. After that, the committee will be writing our report and the Legislature has set a deadline for our report by the end of November of this year. So you can expect our report to be, God willing, ready by the end of this month.
MS. KIRSTEN MULLER: I hadn't announced any intention of speaking. I wasn't planning to, if you have a few minutes . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure, yes ma'am, you're welcome to . . .
MS. MULLER: Yes, my name is Kirsten Muller and I thought I would come here as someone who is active in the NDP, since we heard from Mrs. Hughes and other members who are known Conservatives. I would like to emphasize what Mrs. Hughes says. The difficulty of organizing, politically, this constituency, I have experienced it since the amalgamation and I have been in various positions since the 1978 election when Sarah Vincent ran for the NDP in Guysborough and in federal elections also.
If you take political involvement as good in itself, something we should engage in, it is counterproductive to have a community like Port Hawkesbury forced into a relationship that they don't want because it has obviously led to an alienation amongst people here in town. It has been extremely difficult for people in Guysborough to get any kind of response out of the people in Port Hawkesbury. So it is really difficult and hopefully the commission looking into the boundaries will take public sentiments into consideration so you don't have this alienation and ill will that actually has existed from the Port Hawkesbury side, toward Guysborough. Let me tell you, it has not been fun on either side.
As far as the purpose of your committee to discuss the boundaries commission members, I would like to emphasize that I would like to see people on it who are not apart from the political process, but rather have actually worked in it, on the grassroots, and know what it is all about, to try to get people together, to try to get people to sit in the poll, which is what keeps the political process going in this province. You need to know that, you need to have done it, otherwise I don't think you can be all that useful on that particular committee.
I would also think that there needs to be representation from rural areas, as much as metro areas. There are definitely two different political cultures in the province; the rural and the metro, and you all know that too well.
What you heard earlier today was a little bit of resentment of old political ties being broken and shaken up, and that's not a bad thing. There is too much of that going on in this province already, the old political ties where you wash each other's hands. If you have to build up a different network, maybe it's not all that bad after all.
The boundaries committee is supposed to present a report eventually. I would like for us to get better notification of it than we were notified of this committee meeting. There was something in the paper a couple of days ago. There was no indication where you would get any background information so you could present a reasonable and reasoned kind of presentation. Mainly we have been talking about things that are not on the table right now because we just didn't know. At least your ad could have contained the line where on the Internet you could get the information you needed. So, anyway, a bit better public information next time, please, when we actually get down to discussing whatever suggestion the boundaries commission comes up with.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure. Don't go away, there may be questions for you. Thank you for taking your time to come forward, by the way. Do you live in Port Hawkesbury or Guysborough?
MS. MULLER: No, I live in Mulgrave. I was not born there, contrary to Mr. Purcell, whose family has been here for a couple of hundred years, I came in 1975. From my accent you can hear that I am not Canadian born, so I can look at it maybe a little more objectively than some people who have lived there for a long time. I do have some historical background, and I remember why Port Hawkesbury was lumped in with Guysborough; that dirty, old history we won't repeat again.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any questions from members?
MS. MULLER: I can tell you I have worked and was in charge of these Eastern Counties' Regional Library, which covered three counties and the Town of Port Hawkesbury. It actually has worked since 1969, it has worked very well, that tri-county co-operation, because there was goodwill and people wanted to work together. Nobody, with a few exceptions, wanted to have the goodies for themselves, it was really nice to share. So you can co-operate on a regional basis, even here, it has worked.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, very much. I believe that is our last presenter. Again, I would like to thank the members of the public who took the time to come and make presentations or just to sit through our proceedings today. We appreciate, in particular, that it is not a very nice evening. I believe that is all of our business, and we stand adjourned until our next meeting in Yarmouth. Thank you.
[The select committee adjourned at 7:38 p.m.]
