HANSARD
NOVA SCOTIA HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
SELECT COMMITTEE ON
ESTABLISHING AN
ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES COMMISSION
Thursday, November 24, 2011
SYDNEY, NOVA SCOTIA
7:00 P.M.
Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services
SELECT COMMITTEE ON
ESTABLISHING AN
ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES COMMISSION
Hon. Ross Landry (Chairman)
Mr. Gary Ramey
Ms. Michele Raymond
Mr. Leonard Preyra
Mr. Jim Boudreau
Hon. Michel Samson
Mr. Andrew Younger
Hon. Christopher d'Entremont
Mr. Keith Bain
[Ms. Michele Raymond was replaced by Ms. Pam Birdsall.]
[Hon. Christopher d'Entremont was replaced by Mr. Eddie Orrell.]
WITNESSES
Mr. Stephen Tobin
Ms. Allison Haley
In Attendance:
Ms. Kim Langille
Select Committee Clerk
Ms. Moira MacLeod
Report Writer
SYDNEY, THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 24, 2011
SELECT COMMITTEE ON
ESTABLISHING AN ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES COMMISSION
7:00 P.M.
CHAIRMAN
Hon. Ross Landry
MR. CHAIRMAN: I call the meeting to order. I see someone from the media is here tonight; we're going to welcome them. You're welcome to come up and make a presentation if you want.
[7:02 p.m. The committee recessed.]
[7:22 p.m. The committee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: I will now call this committee back to order.
I understand we're going to have a couple of brief sessions here so would you like to both come up, or one at a time? (Interruption)
It's up to you, I certainly don't want to make you feel uncomfortable but if you feel you have something to contribute to this, we won't turn you away. All right? Going once, going twice.
I will adjourn if there are no speakers coming forward. There's no need of procrastinating, tying up time. That's it, they're not coming.
Okay, thank you, this meeting is recessed.
[7:24 p.m. The committee recessed.]
[7:25 p.m. The committee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: I will now resume this committee. We have Stephen Tobin and Allison Haley. We would ask that when you speak, you speak into the microphone. What you say is a matter of public record, it will be recorded. Should there be an emergency, you know where the exits are, when you came into the building - plus there's an exit door just straight out here to my right.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Remember to speak into the microphone and thank you for appearing.
MR. STEPHEN TOBIN: My name is Stephen Tobin; I'm a resident here in Sydney. I'm a small-business owner as well as a part-time teacher here in Sydney.
MS. ALLISON HALEY: I'm Allison Haley; I'm from Sydney, Nova Scotia. I recently moved to Halifax to look for some employment, it hasn't been going good. I just came home to visit family and I wanted to check out this meeting and see what you guys were talking about and see if I had any opinions that could help.
MR. TOBIN: I think Allison and I were a bit confused in terms of the agenda for tonight. We were just more or less curious, we thought it was more of an open forum but we would be happy to participate in some discussions.
I, myself, have a particular interest; I'm a past candidate of record here in this particular riding for Cape Breton South. I have an interest, of course, in this particular riding and just finding out if there are going to be any particular changes and, if so, what they would be.
The format, I suppose, for us would be to just ask some questions and gain some feedback. Allison, did you have anything in particular? Perhaps, can the committee update us as to what the focus is of these particular sessions?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ramey.
MR. GARY RAMEY: I wasn't going to speak; I was going to let you do that, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The purpose of this committee is to gather information from the general public as to how they see the structure for the next election of the Legislature and to get that cross-section of opinion from the province and to help in the selection of the committee that will actually examine the issues concerning the electoral boundaries in Nova Scotia.
Our mandate is to have this phase of what we're doing done by the end of December and to have a presentation to the Legislature by the Fall of 2012. At that time, the outcomes of that process will be decided and decisions made.
MR. TOBIN: Are all ridings under consideration or are there particular areas of focus?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Others can certainly speak, but my understanding is everything's on the table. Whether we keep the minority seats, whether we keep 52 seats, we add, we subtract, whether we look at the geographical structure - everything's on the table. Whether we should add seats to the City of Halifax, whether we should add or take away from the rural area and how that should play out, it's up in the air.
MR. LEONARD PREYRA: Just to confirm, this committee doesn't make that decision. This committee selects members for the Electoral Boundaries Commission that will conduct hearings across the province to make those decisions. At that point, everything will be open. All we're doing is setting the terms of reference within the terms that are set out in the House of Assembly Act and to that extent some constituencies may be affected, but not necessarily all.
MR. TOBIN: The commission will be reviewing this when? At what point will the actual commission be making these decisions?
MR. CHAIRMAN: We have to be done by December 2012.
MR. TOBIN: So essentially one year from now.
MR. CHAIRMAN: No, we have to have our portion done by the end of December of this year and by the Fall of next year the committee has to have their presentation to the Legislature. Do you have anything different to add Mr. Samson?
HON. MICHEL SAMSON: Let me see if I can take a kick at it. What we have here is a select committee of elected members. What we've been asked is to set up the terms of reference that will then be used by what's called the Electoral Boundaries Commission. That commission will be private individuals, not elected members. We're not sure yet how many there should be, that's one of the terms of reference. That commission itself will then undertake to do much more broad consultations throughout the province and actually look at population figures, look at the map of Nova Scotia and make determinations. What we need to basically tell them is here's the footprint that we want you to use in making those determinations.
We have already received some submissions recommending there be fewer members, we've received some submissions about keeping the four protected ridings that we have now. So that's all part of the terms of reference, what variance should exist between ridings population-wise, should geography and the size of a riding be a factor in determining the makeup of those ridings.
That's the phase we're at now of trying to determine what mandate we give that commission and saying here's what we want you to keep in mind as your guiding principles and go forth and do your consultations. The way that commission will work, if it's the same as last time, they'll bring in an interim report with their first recommendations. They'll do a whole other round of public meetings and then they'll have a final report, which will then be sent to the Legislature, and from there the government will have to introduce legislation to change the Elections Act and possibly the House of Assembly Act to reflect the recommendations that come out of it.
MR. TOBIN: One more question and then I'll jump in with any opinions that I might have. This particular format is something that's happening across the province in various locations so you're asking for public feedback to draft your terms of reference, okay. So is this one of the first sessions that you've undertaken?
MR. CHAIRMAN: It's the third.
MR. TOBIN: And they are publicly advertised sessions that you're seeking public input, okay. I guess in my opinion, as it relates to the boundaries, it has been a couple of years now that people have been talking about this as something that may or may not be happening in the near future, as our Cape Breton members can attest here in Cape Breton, we obviously have a lot of rural areas just as across Nova Scotia so I think rural representation is incredibly important. I think when it comes time to be making these decisions that population probably shouldn't be the only consideration when you look at a riding like Victoria-The Lakes. It's a very large area geographically which would make a member's job much different than somebody who's representing a very urban riding, obviously that makes a difference in representation in terms of responsibilities and roles of the member.
Aside from that I think as it relates to the terms of reference - one more question when it comes to choosing the commission, who actually is making that selection? Is that this committee that's choosing the private commission?
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think we put the names forward. Do we make the final selection?
MR. SAMSON: That hasn't been decided yet but certainly the last time it was nine commissioners and it was a Progressive Conservative majority government. They named five members to the commission and both the Liberal and NDP caucus were asked to submit two names each. What will happen this time, I don't think that's written in stone as to how that works so I think we are still waiting for the government to give a bit of direction.
We have a majority government so obviously this committee, you can see how it's structured, so there is a majority situation but actually who sits on that commission is one of the items that we're looking for input as well. I think the presenter earlier today recommended that there be a significant representation that the commissioners be from rural Nova Scotia, not simply - I think you pointed out last time - there was a majority that were from HRM which caused some concern. The gentleman who presented today and I think some of the Acadian presentations we've received have indicated that they would like to see one or two of the commissioners be of Acadian origin as well. So those are some of the items that we're looking to hear on and, again, what it will all look like in the end remains to be seen but that's part of the feedback that we're looking for.
MR. TOBIN: I think Acadian representation is important as would be the First Nations representation, you know, if you're looking at areas like Cape Breton as well, it's another important factor to consider. Again, and I know it was just sort of an informal thing, but when you were speaking, you had mentioned whether it be adding additional representation in Halifax, or taking away from representation in rural areas and, in my opinion, that would be the wrong direction when we're looking at the vast majority of rural Nova Scotia ridings and the representation that they would require from a geographic perspective.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Preyra.
MR. PREYRA: I was just going to speak to that earlier question about the composition. The mandate of the commission and its operations are pretty well spelled out in the House of Assembly Act and I'll just put that there in front of you. Just two broad principles that are specifically mentioned and become part of the convention: one is that the commission has to be broadly representative of the province and how that's defined, I guess, is open to interpretation, but it's broadly representative; and by convention it has been non-partisan and that the members who are appointed, however they're appointed, are not Party representatives as such. They're members of the commission and, you know, they're appointed in a non-partisan way and they operate in a non-partisan way.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bain.
MR. KEITH BAIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You mentioned, Stephen, about Mi'kmaq representation and there is an allowance for a Mi'kmaq seat presently in the Legislature but that hasn't happened.
MR. TOBIN: A Mi'kmaq seat on the committee, on the commission, a Mi'kmaq seat representation for this particular . . .
MR. BAIN: No, a seat within the Legislature.
MR. TOBIN: A seat within the Legislature.
MR. BAIN: Yes, and as far as what we're doing here, the Act states that every 10 years the boundaries have to be reviewed. It was done in 1991 and Michel, correct me if I'm wrong, that's when the protected seats came into being?
MR. SAMSON: In 1991, yes.
MR. BAIN: That's when the Acadian seats and the African Nova Scotian seats, so there was one in 1991, one in 2001, and we're in 2011 this year.
I know you're still asking questions but I'm going to ask a question that I've asked everybody. I hope I'm not going to put you on the spot when I ask it but we had a presentation from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. Actually our first presentation was from Kevin Lacey. The suggestion that he put forward was that the number of members be reduced from 52 to 33. He did use the 33 number but basically made it broader than that after awhile and said less than 52.
As two young people within this province, as taxpayers within this province, I would like to ask your opinion, your feelings on whether it should be 33. Do you think 33 is a good number? Do you think 52 is the right number? Is it too much? Where should we go?
MR. TOBIN: Do you want to go first?
MS. HALEY: That's an interesting question. I saw that report that was put out. They wanted to take away 19 members but I guess it would depend on how those 33 members were spread across the province. If we're going, you know, if Cape Breton is affected and loses way more seats than the mainland, then obviously I would be totally against it because I want to see the same sort of representation in Cape Breton and on the mainland.
Do I think 52 people are too much or too many? No, because I think that there is such a broad representation across the province and there are so many different intricacies in our province that we do need a larger number of people to represent the different sectors that are in our province.
MR. TOBIN: My opinion on it would be - obviously what this committee is going to have to do, or what this commission is going to have to do, is really dig down and study individual ridings on a case-by-case basis and have an understanding that, you know, (Interruption) Well, I'll answer the question first. Reducing the members to 33? No, not acceptable in my opinion. We need effective representation across the province and we need effective representation for all types of ridings, not just urban ridings but rural ridings as well and, again, I think there is a significant difference between the type of representation required in an urban riding versus the type of representation that's required in a rural riding.
I think that really what you should be doing is gauging the members, as well, which I know that obviously you're doing, but to find out even at the representation we have now - I can attest to the fact that some of these members and many of you are quite busy as it is, so I'm certain that by reducing members down to 33, you're taking on a much larger load of additional responsibilities. At this time I would say that 52 members is, in itself, pushing it so I think that by reducing it down to 33 members, you're losing effective representation and, in turn, you're losing the voice of constituents and you're losing the effectiveness of the role of members of the Legislative Assembly.
MR. BAIN: Just for information, the 33 number that was presented to us came from the fact that there are 11 federal ridings in the Province of Nova Scotia. The Taxpayers Federation is saying that there should be three MLAs representing each of those 11 ridings, and that's where the 33 came from. Again, that's just in case you're wondering why 33, that was the explanation we were given.
MR. TOBIN: So in other words, the justification being that federal representation should be able to balance out the reduction in provincial representation?
MR. BAIN: No, I don't think it played a part whatsoever, except to say that there were 11 federal ridings and just as an example, I'll use our speaker from this afternoon. Sydney-Victoria, as it stands today, there are 5.5 MLAs - Eddie takes up 1.5. (Laughter) That's the way it is now and their proposal is three per riding.
MR. TOBIN: Again, my opinion would be that obviously federal representation is a lot different than provincial representation. You're talking two very different areas of responsibility and focus. I think it's very important on a provincial level, especially given these uncertain times across the country, across the province, that we have effective representation in Halifax or in the Legislature.
I think when we're talking about that, Mr. Lacey would like to focus on - I'm sure he looks at the bottom line, and I know what he has been going on about over the last number of years and that's no surprise to anybody. But let's take it away from a cost perspective and look at it simply from a representation standpoint. That's why people are elected: to effectively represent the people of Nova Scotia. Can the people of Nova Scotia be effectively represented with 33 members? No.
MR. BAIN: I guess to put it into perspective, as it stands today, Cape Breton Island has nine MLAs; under this new proposal there would be six in Cape Breton. That's just if you wanted to think about comparisons.
MS. HALEY: Does the proposal say which ridings would be affected in Cape Breton?
MR. BAIN: No, and he felt that that's up to the commission to determine that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ramey.
MR. RAMEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks for coming, Ms. Haley and Mr. Tobin. I have just a tiny bit to add and it's in relation to what some of my colleagues have already discussed. You asked us if this was the first meeting and we said no, and you should know where we've been. We've been in Truro, Port Hawkesbury, we're in Sydney obviously now, Tuesday we'll go to Yarmouth, and then we'll come back to Halifax. That will be our little road tour for our part.
We were talking about the way the pie was carved up, according to Mr. Lacey's hypothesis. I think Mr. Bain has already addressed what that would look like. Certainly in our area, our MP is Mr. Keddy and the federal riding is called South Shore-St. Margaret's. It extends from roughly part of Halifax County down to Shelburne. There are several MLAs - there would be six there if you go right through to Shelburne. Under that hypothesis again, we would be - I mean I think it's very simplistic: you take the federal riding, you split it into three pieces and that's how you get the count, right?
I think that is simplistic, personally. I'm not here to make opinions on that, but that carves it up in a very simple way.
You should also know that we talked about protected ridings and I'm not sure if you know which ones those are but there's the riding of Preston, and there are the ridings of Argyle, Clare, and Richmond - three Acadian and one African-Canadian. It was explained a few minutes ago that those were put in place.
You should also know that there are some constituencies in the Halifax area that have 22,000 constituents and there are some constituencies that may have 9,000 constituents or something. They vary greatly but then again, some of them might be in the protected ones, some of them might be in rural areas.
This gentleman has a constituency roughly the size of Prince Edward Island and, Mr. Bain, you're right behind him in terms of geographic size, so really, it's not a simplistic thing to just quickly look at and say, oh well, let's use some very simplistic formula and figure this out.
I'm really just passing that on for what it's worth, so that when you're making your deliberations, should you present again, that you're aware of those things.
MR. TOBIN: Certainly, and I mean you just said it but it's not a simplistic consideration, a simplistic recommendation doesn't work. Again, just to reiterate, even though I've said it before, the issues that would come forward in a riding that may have more constituents per riding in an urban area are still much different than the issues and/or the responsibilities that come with a rural area.
MR. RAMEY: And if I may, just to add, Mr. Chairman, and then I'll stop talking. I think Mr. Samson mentioned when he was speaking that there were nine members on the last commission. Five of them came from what we call HRM - the Halifax Regional Municipality - the other four were from other areas. That's how it was constituted last time. Some people may agree or disagree that that was the right mix but that's the way it was.
MR. TOBIN: There was a session in Truro, a session in Port Hawkesbury, you're heading to Yarmouth. I understand from the afternoon session that there was one person present; there are only two here tonight. So do you feel that there has been adequate uptake and buy-in into this session from the public, or is there a reason why there aren't more people here tonight, or is that just because this is not a (Interruption) Sure.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm going to answer and then I'm going to go over to Mr. Samson. There are two parts to that: one, I think the storm contributed to the low turnout today; the other is that there are many other vehicles in which people can communicate with the panel. They can do that on-line and they can do it by getting direct with the government, or writing in as well. Mr. Samson.
MR. SAMSON: Thank you. Ten years ago it was no different; I think we had a total of 31 presentations throughout the province, which is not a high number. At this point, Stephen, I think the public hasn't been engaged in understanding what changes could take place. Right now, unofficially, it's being presumed that there will be one seat lost in industrial Cape Breton. Now, do the people in industrial Cape Breton understand that? I don't think so. I think if they did, especially the potential ridings that could disappear, I think you'd see quite a few more people here, which I think once the commission starts, if not in their first round of hearings, I think after their first recommendations come out you'll see much more interest.
At this point I don't think communities have yet come to the realization that they may lose representation or some of the communities in Halifax which may feel that they need further representation, I guess it's a double-edged sword. I think at this point, without anyone having suggested what the changes might look like, I think that's why there's a bit less interest but I'm not surprised by that.
I would suspect that when we go to Yarmouth, there may be more presentations there and I suspect that in Halifax we might see quite a few presentations as well. I think, as the chairman has pointed out, in this day and age a lot of people are e-mailing in their comments or they're faxing them in or they're going to the Web site. The days of people showing up at public meetings, I think it's a lot easier reflecting on your thoughts and sending them via your computer than sitting in front of a microphone at the Delta.
I think society has changed a little bit in that regard. In fact, that's one of the questions we asked ourselves earlier, as to whether this was still the best way of hearing from Nova Scotians in 2011. So I'm not surprised at the low turnout but I would suspect once the commission starts doing its work, it's going to draw a lot more attention.
MR. CHAIRMAN: There's also a 1-888 number, as well, that people can phone in.
We'll take one more question from Mr. Bain.
MR. BAIN: It's just a statement, Mr. Chairman, and it's just following up on what you said with the e-mails and faxes and everything. I hope I'm not going too far with this but I encourage both Stephen and Allison, if they want to make a submission in writing or by e-mail, please feel free to do it. Now that you know the general gist of . . .
MR. PREYRA: Or in Yarmouth or Halifax . . .
MR. BAIN: Yes, if you want to come to Yarmouth or Halifax, sure.
MR. TOBIN: We can get on your tour bus. (Laughter)
MR. BAIN: But I think it's important that you know your voice will be heard, if you have some opinions that you have up until December 2nd.
MR. TOBIN: I guess one last thought I would put in is that - and we've already established that it's going to be a non-partisan commission. This is incredibly important just simply because, of course, from a political perspective, as well, when you're changing boundaries, you know, changing the political makeup, with a majority government in place, et cetera, we would want to make sure that obviously there's equal and fair representation in terms of the selection of that because we don't want to see ridings change purely for political purposes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: And neither do we.
MS. HALEY: When you're thinking of the people to select for this commission, what type of person, what kind of background do these people have; what type of credentials do they have to pretty much put together a report and say that these boundaries need to change?
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think there are a few things: that they're a Nova Scotian; that they have a diversity of skills - we're looking for diversified panel representation that encompasses much understanding of the people of Nova Scotia; that they keep an open mind and are objective in their approach; and that they look at the best interests of the taxpayer at the end of the day and the individual voter.
MS. HALEY: So did I hear you correctly that you have already selected people potentially?
MR. CHAIRMAN: No.
MS. HALEY: Okay, so how can people put their name - if they're interested to sit on this committee, is there a process if someone is interested?
MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll take your name tonight. (Interruptions) Yes, they can bring their names forward and say that they have an interest in it and then, you know, submit a resumé so that we get some understanding. I think it's very important that whoever gets selected, that we have a broad range of life experiences and a broad range of understanding of Nova Scotia, the various interest groups, and the culture of the province.
MS. HALEY: I think that's great. I'm just wondering how people could kind of put their name forward. So I think that's great.
MR. CHAIRMAN: So we're looking forward to seeing you put your name forward.
MS. HALEY: Maybe.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any other questions? I want to thank you for coming tonight and it was really nice that you did stir up the desire to sit at the table. We appreciate your questions and getting your points on record and getting the questions out to the panel. I think that worked out very well. So I thank you.
MR. TOBIN: Thank you very much.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any other witnesses? Going once, going twice.
I will now adjourn this meeting for the final time this evening. Thank you.
[The committee adjourned at 7:53 p.m.]
