HANSARD
NOVA SCOTIA HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
SELECT COMMITTEE ON
ESTABLISHING AN
ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES COMMISSION
Thursday, November 24, 2011
SYDNEY, NOVA SCOTIA
3:00 P.M.
Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services
SELECT COMMITTEE ON
ESTABLISHING AN
ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES COMMISSION
Hon. Ross Landry (Chairman)
Mr. Gary Ramey
Ms. Michele Raymond
Mr. Leonard Preyra
Mr. Jim Boudreau
Hon. Michel Samson
Mr. Andrew Younger
Hon. Christopher d'Entremont
Mr. Keith Bain
[Ms. Michele Raymond was replaced by Ms. Pam Birdsall.]
[Hon. Christopher d'Entremont was replaced by Mr. Eddie Orrell.]
WITNESS
Mr. Ron MacDonald
In Attendance:
Ms. Kim Langille
Select Committee Clerk
Ms. Moira MacLeod
Report Writer
SYDNEY, THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 24, 2011
SELECT COMMITTEE ON
ESTABLISHING AN ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES COMMISSION
3:00 P.M.
CHAIRMAN
Hon. Ross Landry
MR. CHAIRMAN: I will now call this meeting to order. Thank you very much for coming. In the absence of having anyone who's wishing to appear at this time, even though I'm calling it to order, does anyone have any questions? No questions, then we will take a break for the next 15 minutes.
There's a gentleman in the back there. Are you interested in coming and sharing your points of view, sir, or are you just here? (Interruption) That's very good, thank you. Is there anyone else who has questions or points? Okay, we'll take a recess.
[3:03 p.m. The committee recessed.]
[3:35 p.m. The committee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll now call this committee back to order. I'll just go over a few things. The exits are there, you know, in case there's an emergency. Today the hearing will be recorded and anything that you do say, sir, will be a matter of public record. I would ask you to speak directly into the microphone when you do. I'll ask my colleagues to introduce themselves.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Your name, sir.
MR. RON MACDONALD: Ron MacDonald, and I'm from Cape Breton North. The main reason that I wanted to come here today was to determine just what the rules were, more or less, because I just received notice in the paper a week ago, or so, and I would suggest that in a future time, perhaps it might be a bit more advertised for these hearings and if it could be done when the House isn't in session because those of us representing constituencies often would like to make the presentation when our own MLA is available, or MLAs in the neighbouring districts, in order that we are able to have that input as well as ours. When an MLA is away, especially in the rural areas, when he or she is away in Halifax, it's very difficult to get this opportunity for information.
I was rather shocked to see the presentation of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation - that we should be put on par with the federal seats which, to me, was rather ridiculous. I would think, I know here, for instance, in Sydney-Victoria, a federal constituency, there are five and a half provincial constituencies. This would be much more, perhaps, than some of the more urban areas and certainly representation by population has not been followed since 1867. We have lower populations per constituency in the rural ridings but this balances out because of the distance and the work involved. It doesn't have the same requirements as those in the urban areas and we have come through 100-odd years with this situation. It can be improved upon, I have no doubt.
The other thing is that when a committee is being formed to establish boundaries, or at least provide this information to the House, I would suggest, not like last time when there were five members from the Halifax regional areas and four from the rest of the province, that it be patterned out a bit more to reflect it. I have some worry that Nova Scotia is becoming much like Manitoba where Winnipeg is the sole voice, practically, for the rest of the province because of the population in Winnipeg with regard to the rest of the province. We don't have that in New Brunswick and certainly not in Prince Edward Island. In Newfoundland and Labrador it is a bit coming that St. John's is this way but I do not think it fair to the rural areas, here, that Halifax should become the sole tool to wag the rest of the province.
I would hope - I think your deadline is December 2nd - to perhaps put some of these words down in a more comprehensive fashion with some statistics to back up my presentation and provide it to the committee. I will do that in consultation with various other members from the community who are interested in this.
I think at this time, if there's anything that you can, perhaps, inform me of, I thank the committee very much for the opportunity to make this slight presentation. I would certainly be amenable to answering anything if I can and I will be making a presentation, officially, by writing in, and this goes to the committee. Now, I would make one request, that when the committee has a report to present to the members of the Legislature, that people from the constituencies be consulted about this and given an opportunity to make either a critique of it or to have some input along the way. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions? Mr. Bain.
MR. KEITH BAIN: Thanks very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Ron. I realize it was short notice but it's certainly good to have someone here this afternoon, at least, making a statement.
Yesterday I asked the question and I think you already answered it. We did have the presentation for the Canadian Taxpayers Federation where the CEO, Kevin Lacey, suggested that we have 33 seats and it goes along with the federal boundaries, the 11 federal ridings, and he says there should be three MLAs from each federal riding. I think you've certainly made your views known on that.
I questioned Mr. Lacey as to whether or not they considered geography when they were making that determination and, indeed, when I say "they," I don't know who made the decision, whether it's just a recommendation from Mr. Lacey, or from the federation. I'm sure he spoke on behalf of the federation but I continue to ask that question because it's the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and the presenters that we had yesterday. You are taxpayers of this country, and I think it's important that we hear your views, too, as well as the federation.
One of the things that was also suggested, and maybe Michel might be planning on asking it, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation is also suggesting that we do away with our protected seats. Presently we have three Acadian seats in the province: Richmond, Clare, and Argyle; and we have an African Nova Scotian seat in Preston. I don't know if you wish to make a comment on that, Ron, whether you think we should maintain those protected seats or if you have another suggestion.
MR. RON MACDONALD: Certainly it seems to me that the Acadian population has elected people through the years to represent the various areas that are in question. We've had three or four Acadian members for as long as I can recall. As for the Preston seat, of course, it turns back and forth because it isn't always a Black person being elected there and, to me, in the neighbouring constituency, there is a Black person elected. I just don't see why one should be designated as such. I don't think we can follow through on that. We don't have the authority.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Preyra.
MR. LEONARD PREYRA: Thank you very much and thank you for coming in and speaking to this committee, Mr. MacDonald. Really two things - one is just on your question of procedure. The procedure is really spelled out in the House of Assembly Act, and there are extra copies of that at the back of the room, but you will have an opportunity to write to this committee and certainly we would encourage you to do that. We want to get as many submissions as we possibly can and, certainly, if you would like to flesh out your comments, we would like to look at that as well.
On the Electoral Boundaries Commission itself, we have accepted the idea of having a commission that's broadly representative. It is spelled out in the House of Assembly Act itself, but in terms of making submissions, you could make a submission to the Electoral Boundaries Commission when it's established and they will then have a preliminary report and you will have an opportunity to respond to that preliminary report as well. This is kind of a preparatory committee for the real work that will be done on the Electoral Boundaries Commission. Certainly we're hoping that a lot of people will participate, because it is an important task.
But on a question on your presentation, are you able to outline a set of principles that you think are important? When we recommend the terms of reference to the Electoral Boundaries Commission, we'll be asked to set out some broad principles and you seem to have some in mind in terms of rural representation and in terms of ridings and all that. Do you have things that you use as your touchstones?
MR. RON MACDONALD: To enunciate my principles would perhaps be the simplest thing - to find them fair is another thing.
MR. PREYRA: Exactly. What would you consider fair, I guess is what we're asking?
MR. RON MACDONALD: I do believe that we have at present a balance with the urban and rural population, although there is no mistake that the urban population in the Halifax area is growing and will need additional representation at times. I'm not particularly anxious to see this done at the expense of the rural seats which we now have.
I lived in Halifax for over 30 years and I knew several of the MLAs there and I knew them quite well. Their workload was extremely different than it was for those who represented rural areas. And I must say that I felt for many of the people in the rural areas, especially ministers in rural areas who had to combine not only their constituency work, but also the work of a minister. This was really cutting into their time, as I'm sure you, Mr. Chairman, would realize at this time, and Mr. Samson the same thing.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I have a question. With regard to the point you just made about the balance between urban and rural, what is your view? Should the seats of 52 be increased, decreased, or remain the same and find a balance within the 52?
MR. RON MACDONALD: I would think finding the balance within the 52 would be acceptable. I read this morning, I think, that New Brunswick is attempting to cut back on the seats they have. I think a reduction in representation right now - there's going to have to be a growth in the seats surrounding Halifax and this might be passed along to some of the rural areas - to cut back on the number of seats now, I don't think we should.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You're aware that New Brunswick has more seats than Nova Scotia and less population?
MR. RON MACDONALD: Oh, yes. Yes. They're smaller.
MR. CHAIRMAN: If they're to align themselves, I think they'd have to go down around 48, I think, would balance it - just off the top of my head. So that's about a seven-seat difference, is it - there are 55 now? But if I'm hearing you correctly then, you're saying the 52 is acceptable and there should be some realignment to balance out the population within Halifax and that would take - do you have a number from the rural that would be the adjustment?
MR. RON MACDONALD: No, not at this point, although I will attempt to come up with that when I make a presentation.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I appreciate that, and we'll be looking forward to that presentation. Does anyone else have a question for Mr. MacDonald?
MR. BAIN: Mr. Chairman, it's not a question. And I think Andrew might confirm it, but I think New Brunswick has already announced today that they're lowering their seats to 52, which is the same as ours. So a population of 750,000 and 52 members - we have a population of a million and 52 members.
MR. RON MACDONALD: Newfoundland and Labrador is caught in that too.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for coming in. We appreciate the fact that you did show up and you took the time to reflect. Not only was it nice that you did do that, but I think you provided us with some good information. I truly look forward to your report.
MR. RON MACDONALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You're quite welcome.
Since the next speaker has not arrived yet, we will take a 15-minute recess.
[3:49 p.m. The committee recessed.]
[4:09 p.m. The committee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: I will now call this meeting to order. Since no other individual or presenter has arrived - it must be due to the stormy weather - we will call this portion to an end and we'll resume this evening at seven o'clock. Thank you.
[The committee adjourned at 4:09 p.m.]
