HANSARD

 

NOVA SCOTIA HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

 

 

 

 

 

 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON

 

ESTABLISHING AN

 

ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES COMMISSION

 

 

Wednesday, November 23, 2011

 

 

 

 

 

PORT HAWKESBURY, NOVA SCOTIA

 

3:00 P.M.

 

 

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

 

 

 

 

 

 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON

ESTABLISHING AN

ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES COMMISSION

 

Hon. Ross Landry (Chairman)

Mr. Gary Ramey

Ms. Michele Raymond

Mr. Leonard Preyra

Mr. Jim Boudreau

Hon. Michel Samson

Mr. Andrew Younger

Hon. Christopher d'Entremont

Mr. Keith Bain

 

 

[Ms. Michele Raymond was replaced by Ms. Pam Birdsall.]

 

 

WITNESSES

 

Mr. Richard Cotton

Mr. Yvon Samson

Ms. Jacqueline Samson - LaPicasse

 

 

 

In Attendance:

 

Ms. Kim Langille

Select Committee Clerk

 

Ms. Moira MacLeod

Report Writer

 

 

 

 

 

 

PORT HAWKESBURY, WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 23, 2011

 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON

ESTABLISHING AN ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES COMMISSION

 

3:00 P.M.

 

CHAIRMAN

Hon. Ross Landry

 

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon. We'll now call this committee to order.

 

Bonne après-midi. J'aimerais appeler la réunion à l'ordre.

 

Just for the record, did the Progressive Conservatives and the NDP come prepared? (Laughter) That's just a joke.

 

Thank you for getting here, Andrew. We waited, and we would have waited a little longer. We didn't want to start without at least one of you being here. We felt that was important.

 

My name is Ross Landry. I'm the chairman of this committee and I'll be introducing my colleagues here this afternoon, but I just want to go over a couple of little things.

 

The standard practice of exiting from the room that we are in is the back door. It's the only way out that I see at this time, so should there be an emergency situation, just follow the exit signs.

 

When you come up to speak this afternoon, I would ask you to clearly state your name and who you are representing - if you are representing anyone other than yourself. Also, speak directly and clearly into the microphone. There will be simultaneous translation occurring.

 

This is a public meeting, and remember, what you have to say is a matter of public record, so my little humour there, as I caught myself realizing that that is part of the record. So be conscious of that fact and if you don't want it on the record, don't say it. So that will be where we're at.

 

The first person we're going to call this afternoon, and, according to this sheet, it is Richard Cotton. Mr. Cotton, are you here, sir? Please come forward and take one of the three seats in front of us here. So, before you start, we'll do the introductions.

 

We'll start on my right, this afternoon.

 

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: All right, Mr. Cotton, you have the floor and we're very pleased to see you.

 

MR. RICHARD COTTON: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I understand there are two questions - one is the makeup of the committee, and the other is what the commission should consider. I'll address the first one - the makeup of the committee.

 

When you say "independent," I'm assuming that there are going to be no provincial volunteers, so I don't think I need to make any remarks on that. I believe that there should be eight members plus a chairman, and that the makeup should be approximately as follows: two members from HRM; one from CBRM; three from rural Nova Scotia, representing the eastern, central, and western parts; and there should be representatives from the Acadian, African Nova Scotian, and Mi'kmaq communities.

 

I would suggest, when you make your appointments, those people are there not for the weight of their vote, but for their knowledge of the area that they are going to represent. In other words, you need fair-minded people, as I am sure you are going to appoint, who will make decisions based on what they hear from the public and not based on what their own personal opinions might be. That might be a difficult task, or it might not be.

 

What the commission should consider: I guess, without saying, population should still be the weighty part of the makeup of the Legislature; geography would be next in importance - the rural ridings should have less voters per riding, to make up for their large geographical size, but the 25 per cent, plus or minus, should be the maximum of those ridings; minority representation should be kept, and when I say that I'm not suggesting that the status quo should be kept - that would be one of the options.

 

Another option that I could think of would be electing those members at large, very similar to how the school boards do it across Nova Scotia, where a person in a particular riding - let's say, for instance, I'll use my own riding, which is Richmond - what happens now is when they register for the school board elections, the residents have a choice to vote for the Acadian school board member or for the - and I still refer to my old school days as the core, but that would be their choice, they would have to register for one or the other.

 

I'm not suggesting that we should increase the number of seats to 55, what I'm suggesting is that - and again when I suggest, I'm talking about a consideration. I haven't received enough information yet to decide what should or shouldn't be. I do think the status quo is one of the options that have to be considered, but I also think that you're probably going to get other options out there. One of the things that I would not want to see is to have the minority representation disbanded altogether. There may be better ways of doing it because I do know that the protected seats fall well below the plus or minus 25 per cent, so there may be other ways to do that.

 

I think the other question that needs to be asked is whether the old municipal county boundaries should still be considered. Again, I'm not suggesting they should or shouldn't, but demographic population has changed dramatically over the number of years. HRM becomes more and more populous; Cape Breton is less and less populous. We won't get into reasons as to why that is, but nevertheless it is a fact. Whether or not, in looking for representation, county boundaries should still be represented or not, any community interest is more important than the municipal county boundaries.

 

As I stated, the factor of 25 per cent should be an absolute maximum unless, of course, you decided to go with the four seats now, three Acadian seats.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: How many? Sorry, I didn't hear you.

 

MR. COTTON: The four seats that are protected now from the plus or minus 25 - that being Clare, Argyle, Richmond, and the riding in Preston, which by the way hasn't been represented since 1999, I believe. Wayne Adams was the last black Nova Scotian to represent that riding.

 

That's about it from my ideas in the presentation. Certainly once you set your mandate, I would imagine there will be a second round of hearings and I'll have some opinions then.

 

MR. KEITH BAIN: Thank you, Richie, for your presentation. You touched on the geography part and being from a rural area, probably one of the most rural, I think when you look around the Cape Breton area we have a lot of rural seats there and I'm glad you brought that up.

 

I just want to get your opinion on something. Yesterday we had a presentation from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.

 

MR. COTTON: Kevin Lacey, yes.

 

MR. BAIN: During that presentation the suggestion was made that we look at the possibility of recommending to the commission that the number of seats be reduced and the number that was used at that time was from 52 to 33, but I don't think that was a hard and fast number. I'd just like to get your opinion on whether or not there should be that number - that's a reduction of 19 - should there be a reduction, what's your general feeling?

 

MR. COTTON: Two things on that. I don't know what he said before the hearing but his remarks in The Halifax Herald today were pretty clear. He wanted three seats per federal riding, which would be 11, by three, up to 33. Actually, I think the Premier handled that well - I think that that would certainly hurt rural Nova Scotia. If you're going to have 33 seats, and you're looking at population as the main part of the core on it, which I believe that has to be, you certainly have to look at the rural areas. But going down to 33, I certainly wouldn't suggest going to 52 but going down to 33, in my opinion, would not be something I would agree with.

 

MR. BAIN: Thank you.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ramey.

 

MR. GARY RAMEY: I thank you for your presentation, Mr. Cotton - just a quick question. I was interested in the way you talked about members at large as opposed to protected or designated ridings. You also mentioned, in your presentation, about the depopulation of rural areas and the increase in population in urban areas like HRM. I don't know if you agree or not, but I think that's a shift that we're seeing from rural to urban in many provinces in Canada and many parts of the world; that has been happening for some time. However, as Mr. Bain just pointed out, when you start reducing seats you sometimes put even an extra burden on the rural areas because of what we've talked about.

 

Would you mind just saying a few more things about the member-at-large philosophy that you have, please?

 

MR. COTTON: Looking at the last figures, it didn't give the Native vote and I know they had talked about having Native representation and I'm assuming it was quiet in the presentation 10 years ago, but I'm assuming one of the considerations was just that. I don't think there was a whole lot of agreement among the band councils. There was not a whole lot of agreement as to how they should do it. I suspect one of the reasons why there wasn't, was because they didn't really know what the Native people wanted. That's why I think it's very important to have a member of the Native community on this commission that you're going to appoint.

 

The way it works in school board elections is the seats are determined - I can't give you the boundaries, probably Yvon would be able to give it better in Richmond than I would. When you register to vote, you'd have the school board member ballot, the Acadian - or the CSAP now - ballot, and people with Acadian ancestry would have the right to vote for either/or, not both. I would suggest to you that with the Acadian population you may have to look at two seats rather than one. I don't know, I haven't got the report from the last census; I don't know what the count is, but that would, obviously, have to be a consideration.

 

Let's say, just use the figures of one, one, and one for now. I would see the election being right across Nova Scotia with the Acadian community deciding whether they wanted to vote for people in their own riding - their own riding being where the geographic part would be. That would mean a cut in three seats, as far as that part of it goes. It may mean more.

 

The same with the African Nova Scotian community, and of course, even getting a representative from the Native community on the commission, I'm not sure that would be an easy task or not - it might well be. But those are all things that have to be taken into consideration.

 

I didn't try to skate - I hope I answered your question the best I could.

 

MR. RAMEY: You did. Thank you very much, Mr. Cotton.

 

MR. ANDREW YOUNGER: Thank you for the presentation. I just had two questions. The first one was if the positions for Acadians and African Nova Scotians were elected at large, as one of the options you suggested trying, how would you - for example, now when you go in on the school board elections that you referenced, people self-identify. Would you have them do that in the same way for an at-large seat in the Legislature?

 

MR. COTTON: Yes, the biggest thing is how would you - what the criteria would be to be able to exercise the dual option. I don't know if you should have to dig out your family tree to do that but there have to be some criteria of whether you had the option to vote or not, depending on your heritage.

 

MR. YOUNGER: That's why I asked, in the school board ones you simply go in and you choose to vote for the African Nova Scotian representative or you choose to vote for the CSAP representative. I think CSAP you may have to have a child in the school, I'm not sure. Certainly for the African Nova Scotian representative in the Halifax Regional School Board, anybody could choose to vote for that position, which is at large.

 

MR. COTTON: Yes, you could be right. The last time I was involved in the school board was back in 1988, other than voting for the school board member, so I don't know what the standard is now. I know back then there was a means test, it wasn't a strong one by any means. I would suggest to you that you're probably right; it was probably given to the integrity of the individual.

 

MR. YOUNGER: That's fine. You mentioned keeping the 25 per cent variance to help with the geographic issues. I was just wondering if there was a particular reason. I know 25 per cent is used a lot, and we heard the board use 10 per cent and 15 per cent before, I just wondered why you settled on 25 per cent.

 

MR. COTTON: Well, 25 per cent was the criteria used last time except for the four protected seats. They made allowances for that. I guess 25 per cent, in my opinion, would be the absolute maximum, but I think in fairness to rural Nova Scotia, the rural ridings have a tendency to be very diverse in their needs. There are a lot of communities of interest - and I'm not suggesting there aren't in Halifax, but at least the area is condensed enough, where you're representing a lot more people. Now, mind you, like I said, a population still has to have the heaviest weight, but I think there have to be allowances for rural areas. That's why I used the 25 per cent.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have a couple of questions. You mentioned the four seats, and you're saying that's a maximum of designated seats? Or should there be more, or should there be less? That's the first part of my question.

 

MR. COTTON: No, I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm just suggesting that that should be a consideration. I'm suggesting what it is now. The commission, when they hear the hearings - right now, basically all I'm suggesting is what the commission should consider. I would have some ideas on some, but I don't think this would be the place to do it right now. I just want to make sure that the commission has the consideration to be able to have different options. It shouldn't be black and white. In other words, you shouldn't protect the seats, but by the other extreme, you shouldn't have a situation where there is no minority representation at all. I think you have to have minority representation. How you do it should be the question.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: All right, that's very good. Thank you very much. Mr. d'Entremont.

 

HON. CHRISTOPHER D'ENTREMONT: I wanted to maybe use a little bit of an example - I don't know how I'm going to do this one, but if we're saying that we would take the Acadian representation or the African Nova Scotian representation and make it more at large, what would become of the existing constituencies that are representative at this point? So what would happen to Richmond, Argyle, Clare, and Preston?

 

MR. COTTON: Well, I believe that those seats - there wouldn't be any areas cut out. They would still be in what - obviously if you do it that way, Richmond, Argyle, Preston won't exist as a whole. It might be what happened in Keith's riding the last election, where they ran from Victoria in - not the last election, but the last into Victoria-The Lakes. You may have to do that in those particular ridings, but they still would be included as a whole. There will be no areas of the province that would be written out. They would all be represented by regular representation.

 

If you want minority representation, then it shouldn't be done necessarily by riding - maybe it should be done that way. I have no problem with the status quo, by the way, but nevertheless I think that the public should have - I guess my biggest fear would be if you stick with one, the public may decide to say this is not fair because it's over and above the 25 per cent. So I would like the commission to look at other ways of doing that, because I think the minority representation in Nova Scotia is still important. It's just how you do it.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Yes, because I think in the end, if you take Richmond, for example, you would probably have to split it up partly into the west and partly into Inverness. So you maybe lose that history of a representation that way. The same thing would happen in Argyle. It would become part of Yarmouth or what have you.

 

MR. COTTON: Yes.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: So I just wanted to hear your thoughts on that.

 

MR. COTTON: Yes, exactly.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Preyra, and then Mr. Ramey.

 

MR. LEONARD PREYRA: Yes, just to clarify, you would entertain the possibility of reducing the total number of seats directly elected to 48 and then have four at-large seats for designated groups?

 

MR. COTTON: Okay, the only reason the 48 number comes into being is because there happen to be four seats now. I'm not going to suggest - there might be more or there might be less. I can't really see there being less, but maybe because there's probably - and again, I don't know the census from this report - more Acadians than there are African Nova Scotians. So you may have to look at whether it should be two seats. I don't know the Native population. So those would all be things the commission, when they get the presentations and look at the figures, would have to consider. But let's say if it was the four seats, then yes, I'm saying 48 and four.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ramey and then Mr. Bain.

 

MR. RAMEY: Yes, just going back, again in relation to something you said about electing at large for minority groups and that sort of thing, something that came up yesterday in the presentations that I was not aware of - or at least I wasn't aware of it to the degree that it exists - we had a presentation in Truro last night from a gentleman who described to me significant growth in the French population in the school board there, in the Truro area. I mean, Truro is not an area I think of as traditionally being a hotbed of French activity.

 

He also referenced Halifax. I did bump into that one a little while ago. I met some people who were talking about the significant growth in the French population in Halifax. So I guess my question is, in relation to your hypothesis about presenting members at large, would that be part of why you would be suggesting that? There are significant pockets of francophones in areas other than the designated areas who, because they are in these other areas, aren't really being represented by the people in the designated ridings. Would that be one of the arguments for it, for the at-large concept?

 

MR. COTTON: I'm just trying to get my thoughts together. I used to know the mandate of the CSAP, but I do know in Nova Scotia - the people that I am familiar with, at least - find it very important to have their children educated in French. They believe very strongly - and I think rightly so - that that education would allow them to have more job opportunities, would have them more well-rounded, to be able to speak both of our official languages.

 

There are Acadians who I would imagine would have moved into the Halifax area who would be part of that. How you would distinguish one from the other, I'm not sure, but certainly when you set - if you go in that direction, you would have to set the parameters for who could vote in those seats and who can't. Maybe it is strictly by what their own feelings are.

 

MR. RAMEY: Okay, but if I may again, Mr. Chairman - just a follow-up. I'm just trying to clarify this in my own head. Would your suggestion be that, since there are - let's say there are significant francophone populations in Halifax and even in Truro. Do you think that the at-large system that you suggested might be a way of looking at it, would be a fairer way, a more equitable way of making sure that those populations are also represented in the Legislature - the at-large system as opposed to the designated riding system?

 

MR. COTTON: I was going to save that for the next presentation, but that's a good question. Yes, I would think when you look - from a person from Richmond, I would like to see the Richmond seat stay put. That might be a selfish approach, but when you look at Nova Scotia as a whole - and I'll take my Richmond hat off for awhile - probably the fairest way you would do it would be the members at large, because that way you are having a representative in the House who is there for one reason and one reason only, whereas the way the system works now, you are representing your Acadian or your Black Nova Scotian vote, but you are also representing the riding.

 

I'm not suggesting that the same members don't do a good job on that. They do. They wouldn't be there if they didn't. When you look at the overall population - and I'm sure that people in Halifax, when they look at their ridings and the amount of people per MLA, there would be an issue there. So you have to look at it fairly. You have to make sure you have the rural representation and minority representation, but you've got to look at the fairest way possible to do it. That's why it's going to be very important when you appoint your commission members, to have people who have knowledge in their particular area but who are also fair-minded enough to be able to make a decision based on the presentations and the criteria they have, rather than a vested position going in. If you know that a person has a vested position going in, they should not be part of this commission. Have I answered it for you?

 

MR. RAMEY: I think you did. Thank you very much, sir.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Excellent, thank you. Mr. Bain.

 

MR. BAIN: Thanks, Mr. Chairman. The more I think about members at large, the more I begin to wonder. Richard, I'm familiar with the African Nova Scotian representation on the school board because of my years on the school board. It's much easier to manage at a board level, because its size would make it that way.

 

I wonder - I can use Argyle or Richmond or Clare as an example. The voters of those three constituencies, if there was a member at large, they have to ask themselves, do I want to vote for a person who is going to support the French community in Nova Scotia or am I going to vote for someone who is going to look after my needs within the constituency? They can't vote for an MLA representing their constituency and at the same time vote for a member at large representing Acadian Nova Scotians. I guess that poses the degree of difficulty no different than the African Nova Scotian does for school boards, as it stands right now.

 

It's possible that - and I don't know how you would propose the members at large - but it's quite possible that the people in Richmond, the people in Argyle, the people in Clare could have someone from Lunenburg or from Halifax representing their wishes and their needs, where now what these three constituencies see is somebody that's not only representing their needs as a constituent but they are representing their needs as a French-speaking person in this province. That's where I see some difficulties and, again, it's not my place to determine what should be done, I know that, but I'm just throwing that out there to see what your thought might be.

 

MR COTTON: Looking at it from the reverse of that, if you're going to have protected ridings based on Acadian status, Native status - well, we don't have Native status right now but African Nova Scotians - that's kind of a mark against the system and the way it works because really, what are you looking for in your member - a person who is Acadian or a person who's going to represent you well? I'm not suggesting that the people that are on there now can't do both effectively but if you have to ask that question then maybe the system is not working the way it is.

 

Like I said, it's going to be interesting after you set the mandate for the committee. This is going to be one of the areas they should be looking and I think it should be that way. There may be better suggestions than the one - this is the only one that I can come up with but I'm sure you're going to hear from other Nova Scotians who may have a better way than that. I'm just saying you've got to look at the status quo plus different areas to make it as fair as we can for every Nova Scotian who exists in Nova Scotia.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much and thank you for appearing here today. Our next speaker will be Yvon Samson. Mr. Samson, I'll remind you again about the mike and to speak into it clearly, and I thank you very much for coming today. By any chance are you related to this gentleman here?

 

MR. YVON SAMSON: Fortunately, no. (Laughter)

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll reiterate what I said earlier when you were sitting there that this is all public and whatever is said is recorded, and I thank you for coming.

 

MR. YVON SAMSON: Merci beaucoup, Je peux parler français? OK. Merci. M. le Président, chers membres du Comité. Ç toutes les décennies, le gouvernement provincial met sur pied ce Comité spécial sur l'établissement d'une Commission de délimitation des circonscriptions électorales. Il me fait plaisir de me présenter devant vous aujourd'hui afin d'émettre mon opinion sur la composition et les termes de référence de cette Commission, qui sera chargée d'évaluer les circonscriptions électorales et des enjeux sur lesquels cette Commission sera appelée à considérer.

 

Je suis de souche acadienne et ma première langue apprise et encore comprise est le français. Je travaille quotidiennement dans ma langue maternelle à partir de ma communauté natale, Petit-de-Grat, au comté de Richmond. Le Comité a le mandat d'obtenir les opinions de personnes provenant de la communauté acadienne en Nouvelle-Écosse. Je crois important de défendre le droit de représentation de la communauté acadienne au sein de l'Assemblée législative et les droits des Acadiens d'exercer le droit de vote pour élire la personne la plus apte à représenter les intérêts de notre communauté au sein de l'Assemblée législative de la province de la Nouvelle-Écosse.

 

En Nouvelle-Écosse, les Acadiens et les francophones ont réalisé des progrès notables aux cours des dernières décennies, grâce aux décisions des gouvernements successifs, qui ont permis du maintien ou de la création de divers outils, dans notre langue, pour faciliter le développement et l'épanouissement de la communauté acadienne. Il est important de mentionner l'acquisition de la gestion de notre propre système scolaire, le Conseil scolaire acadien provincial, le maintien de l'Université Sainte-Anne à la Pointe-de-l'Église et les progrès d'offrir les services gouvernementaux provinciaux en français.

 

Au cours des années, j'observe des progrès pour renverser des tendances d'assimilation, car les inscriptions aux écoles du CSAP sont à la hausse, un indicateur prometteur pour la vitalité de la communauté acadienne et francophone de notre province.

 

Il y a des parlementaires acadiens, francophones et bilingues dans la Législature. Le gouvernement de la Nouvelle-Écosse peut participer activement aux institutions parlementaires de la francophonie mondiale par l'entremise de l'Assemblée parlementaire de la francophonie. Ce forum et d'autres forums de ce genre, tel que le Forum francophone des affaires, permet aux parlementaires et aux hommes et femmes d'affaires dans ma communauté, de participer aux marchés mondiaux. Cette communauté d'affaires peut ainsi profiter de la valeur ajoutée des deux langues officielles du Canada en participant aux Réseaux internationaux des deux communautés linguistiques du Canada, soit la francophonie et le Commonwealth. Il est dans mon opinion que les termes de référence de l'éventuelle Commission de délimitation des circonscriptions électorales 2011 doit protéger les circonscriptions électorales dites acadiennes de Richmond, Clare et d'Argyle. Ce geste de votre part tiendra compte des droits historiques de représentation de la minorité acadienne et francophone en Nouvelle-Écosse.

 

En ce qui a trait à la composition de cette Commission, il est dans mon opinion que la composition doit inclure une représentation acadienne et francophone afin que cette commission puisse entendre et j'espère, comprendre, et défendre le point de vue de la communauté acadienne sur la nécessité d'avoir des voix de la minorité acadienne et francophone dans leur processus décisionnel parlementaire majoritairement anglophone.

 

Je vous remercie de votre écoute et je suis disponible pour répondre à vos questions.

 

HON. MICHEL SAMSON: Merci Yvon pour ta présentation. Tantôt ou plus de bonne heure, M. Cotton avait suggéré d'avoir des députés acadiens élus à travers de la province. Comme ça existe maintenant, les députés de Richmond, Argyle et Clare, nous avons une circonscription. Nous avons un bureau. Nous savons qui nous représentons. Si on ne fait pas une bonne « job », on sera remplacé. En sachant le montant de communautés acadiennes qu'il y a dans la Nouvelle-Écosse, d'un bout de la province à l'autre, comme député, peux-tu voir que ça fonctionnerait d'avoir des députés élus à travers de la province sans une communauté spécifique et qu'ils pourraient bien faire leur travail et bien être responsables à leurs électeurs sous cette sorte de système?

 

MR. YVON SAMSON: Ayant été président du Conseil scolaire acadien provincial et ayant été, disons, mis en face de territoires géographiques de besoins différents, de façons de faire différentes, j'ai du mal à voir, géographiquement, comment tu pourrais faire ce genre d'initiative. Avoir une personne ou une élection « at large » de façon à représenter tout ces intérêts divergents-là. Au CSAP, il y a 17 membres, parce que, géographiquement, le URB a décidé qu'il était mieux que chacun de ces secteurs géographiques où il y avait une école, avait une représentation spécifique au conseil scolaire donc, déjà le URB avait déterminé que c'était important que ces communautés-là aient une représentation spécifique.

 

Il y a aussi le fait que dans le jugement du procureur général de la Saskatchewan est Roger Carter. Je ne sais pas si vous êtes au courant de ça, mais il a quand même été dit clairement, et je vous ai amené une copie, qu'il faut, c'est pas seulement élire, avoir un vote pour une personne. Il y a d'autres considérations qu'il faut avoir pour avoir une représentation effective. Parce qu'on parle pas au Canada comme aux États-Unis, c'est plutôt, un vote, une voix. Au Canada, on parle de représentation effective de façon à représenter les intérêts géographiques, communautaires et autres et même la juge McLachlin, dans son jugement, a dit, on peut avoir, aussi, au delà de 25 p. 100 et parler de circonstances extraordinaires. Donc, il faudrait probablement que le Comité soit - du moins vous ayez ces informations-là - de façon à pouvoir regarder ces conséquences-là également.

 

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Juste une dernière question, Yvon. Je sais que ça fait des années que tu travailles au niveau du gouvernement avec différents projets. Ici en Nouvelle-Écosse, à cause des circonscriptions protégées, nous avons eu des ministres acadiens pendant les derniers 40 ans. Gerry Doucet, Guy LeBlanc, Neil LeBlanc, Leroy Leger, Chris d'Entremont, Wayne Gaudet, Allister Surette, et même moi-même, pour un petit bout de temps. Dans ton opinion, avec tes expériences et le succès qui a été accompli par la communauté acadienne, est-ce qu'on aurait vu cette sorte de succès sans avoir des ministres et des députés qui siégeaient au Cabinet et puis qui siégeaient au gouvernement pour pousser ces projets à une réalité?

 

MR. YVON SAMSON: Je pense, personnellement, que ça aurait été très difficile à rendre les gouvernements successifs sensibles à la question acadienne. Parce qu'on a eu des batailles, juste pour le système scolaire, si tu t'en souviens en 1982, il y a eu des batailles extraordinaires dans les communautés de Clare, Argyle et de Chéticamp. Donc, si des représentants acadiens n'ont pas pu expliquer pourquoi cette dynamique-là jouait dans la communauté. Le gouvernement a probablement balayé toute la question et puis a mis ça de côté. Donc, l'importance est cruciale, je crois, d'avoir la représentation acadienne au sein du Cabinet et au sein du gouvernement.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. d'Entremont.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Merci beaucoup M. le Président. La question que je me demande, c'est vraiment si qu'on regarde la présentation du Canadian Taxpayers Federation ou même, des discussions qu'on a vu à des questions dernièrement, des hommes politiques, c'est que, « you know », on est 20 ans, 40 ans dans le futur, que tout marche bien « asteure », on pense que tout va travailler bien dans le futur. Qu'est-ce que tu penses que si qu'on dit, on a pas besoin des circonscriptions protégées, on a pas besoin vraiment de désigner quelqu'un acadien pour être à la Législature, comment est-ce que tu crois que le futur de la communauté ou de projet va être? On va-tu voir le même type d'intérêt dans la communauté sans quelqu'un à la Législature?

 

MR. YVON SAMSON: Une des choses que j'observe, si on ne donne pas à nos jeunes l'espoir qu'ils peuvent participer activement à la vie politique, que ça soit en Nouvelle-Écosse, ou dans la municipalité ou dans d'autres, parce qu'on a enlevé un droit, parce que c'est comme ça que je peux le voir, dans ma perspective, je crois qu'on ferait beaucoup de tort à la communauté acadienne dans son avenir, parce qu'elle sentira ne pas avoir des outils qui sont nécessaires pour son développement et elle n'aura pas cette - on appelle ça « disengagement » - le désengagement assez important de notre communauté envers le système, parce que le système ne répond plus à ses besoins.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Penses-tu, dans le présent qu'on est maintenant, que tout va bien, qu'il n'y a pas de préjudices, il n'y pas - la façon que la population anglophone regarde la population acadienne et, vois-tu que culturellement, vois-tu que les Acadiens vont pouvoir leur pousser eux-mêmes, sans la représentation de même? Vois-tu encore qu'on est bien maintenant?

 

MR. YVON SAMSON: Parce que ta question est un peu sur la discrimination, mais tu vas toujours avoir des gens qui ont une différente opinion dans les questions de représentation et des questions comme ça. C'est la société même. C'est pour ça qu'on a au Canada, certaines lois qui protègent certaines minorités. C'est pour ça que la Charte des droits a donné l'article 23 qui protège la gestion scolaire. C'est pour ça qu'en Nouvelle-Écosse on a eu une histoire de protéger ces sièges-là.

 

Je pense qu'il y a une acceptation de la communauté anglophone de ce qu'on est. Beaucoup plus qu'il y avait 40, 50 ans passés. Alors que tu pouvais voir une bataille dans la région d'Halifax pour une classe en français dans une école anglaise. Ça n'existe plus maintenant, parce que c'est un « non-issue », on n'a plus besoin de ça. Il y a d'autres domaines où est-ce qu'on pourrait faire du progrès, et on en fait, les services en français c'est énorme. Hier, le gouvernement a annoncé le site pour la Législature, pour la première fois, c'est du jamais vu en Nouvelle-Écosse et pour moi, ça fait chaud au coeur que finalement je peux parler à mon gouvernement dans ma langue. Donc, ça fait une différence. Je ne sais pas si je réponds?

 

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Très bien répondu. Merci.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. If there are no other questions, I thank you for coming this afternoon and giving us a very good presentation.

 

Our next speaker will be Jacqueline Samson. Welcome. It's very nice to see you. I'll just remind you, as well, about this being recorded. It's a public hearing and, as I said, will be recorded. The time is yours now.

 

MS. JACQUELINE SAMSON: Merci, M. le Président, Comité. J'aimerais commencer par vous dire merci d'avoir le système de traduction disponible qui me permet de faire ma présentation dans ma langue.

La communauté acadienne de Richmond voudrait que le Comité considère les points suivants : comme facteur primaire, la Loi sur les services en français de la province de la Nouvelle-Écosse, qui permet d'obtenir des services en français, mais aussi de favoriser la préservation et les arts de la collectivité acadienne et francophone de la province. Que l'un des facteurs primaires à être considéré, par les termes de référence, soit que la minorité acadienne est de première importance en Nouvelle-Écosse et le respect du caractère spécifique de notre circonscription acadienne de Richmond, actuelle, dans le respect de nos diversités, nos histoires et nos traditions.

 

Qu'au moins deux personnes de la communauté acadienne et francophone siègent sur la Commission qui sera chargée de recommander des révisions, des délimitations, des circonscriptions électorales. Ces deux personnes doivent avoir une connaissance et une sensibilité envers le peuple acadien. Que notre façon de vivre, dans notre milieu rural, ne soit pas interrompue par un changement et notre suggestion est de retenir le comté de Richmond comme tel. Ceci travaille bien pour nous.

 

Enfin, notre grand désir est de continuer à vivre dans notre langue. Grâce à l'aide du Conseil scolaire acadien provincial et l'Université Sainte-Anne, nos jeunes ont le droit d'une éducation en français. De plus, la Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse et ses membres, le ministre des Affaires acadiennes, les autres régions de la Nouvelle-Écosse, et le nouveau site Web de l'Assemblée législative de la Nouvelle-Écosse, sont tout des grands atouts à notre héritage et notre patrimoine acadiens.

 

Nous espérons fortement que nos suggestions seront retenues. Merci.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Mr. Samson.

 

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Merci Jacqueline et c'est comme moi-même et même Chris ici, sommes bien au courant de qu'est-ce qui se passe au centre La Picasse mais pour les autres membres du comité, je me demande si tu pourrais peut-être leur expliquer quels services et quels bureaux se trouvent sous la couverture du Centre La Picasse, pour qu'ils puissent mieux comprendre les services qui sont là pour la communauté acadienne.

 

MS. JACQUELINE SAMSON: Pour nous autres, au comté de Richmond, seulement pour expliquer un peu en avant. Avant que je suis devenue la directrice générale de La Picasse, j'étais la présidente de La Picasse pour six ans. Dans la bâtisse même, l'Université Sainte-Anne, campus de Petit-de-Grat, est droite à côté de nous autres avec le nouveau service du Centre marin. Là, on a la bibliothèque régionale, on a un programme qui est appelé la Pirouette. C'est pour des enfants, des bébés, et même avant être bébé, d'avant naissance, jusqu'à l'âge de six ans. Comme ça, il y a une tradition de ce programme-là, d'aller « Grandir en français », d'aller dans l'école du CSAP.

 

Là, il y a un restaurant, une boutique où est-ce que tout nos artistes acadiens peuvent mettre leur peintures, toutes sortes de choses qu'ils font comme artistes puis on démontre ça pour la communauté. Il y a le bureau du Conseil de développement économique de la Nouvelle-Écosse. Tous les bureaux du Conseil scolaire acadien provincial du nord-est sont dans notre bâtisse, il y a quelques « Addiction Services » qui offrent des services dans notre bureau, aussi, le département de Justice pour probation. On a notre propre radio communautaire, dans la bâtisse. On a un service et un bureau local de Service Canada et on a notre propre cuisine et grande salle avec un système de son de haute, haute qualité qu'on offre des noces, des spectacles, des réunions de famille, des « partys » : n'importe quoi. Ça c'est dans notre bâtisse.

 

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Je vais suivre un peu sur la question que Chris avait demandée. Le représentant du Canadian Taxpayers Federation, il a dit, on a plus besoin des circonscriptions protégées parce que le travail de la communauté acadienne, c'est fini. C'est accompli. On n'en a plus besoin. Ça c'était dans le passé et maintenant, ce qui existe, c'est bon et puis, on peut tous nous asseoir derrière, et puis, c'est fini. Je me demande, comme directrice générale du Centre La Picasse, est-ce que le travail, pour La Picasse, est fini? Dans tes yeux? Ou est-ce que l'argent dont vous avez besoin et les services que vous avez, est-ce que c'est tout fini, ou est-ce que c'est du travail qui continue toujours?

 

MS. JACQUELINE SAMSON: J'étais pas à cette session-là, mais si ça c'est l'attitude, ou qu'est-ce que le monde comprend, moi j'ai manqué ce mémo-là. Parce que, c'est pas même possible. Oui, je ne dis pas que les affaires n'ont pas changé. Moi-là, je suis pas prête à la section de vieillesse encore, mais je suis plus « teenager » non plus, là. Il y a des affaires qui ont changé. Mais, pour nous autres, c'est toujours une bataille, et c'est tous les jours. Puis pour nous autres, et pour tous les individus, et tous les Acadiens du côté de Richmond, et partout dans la province, ça va jamais être fini. Parce que c'est des services dont on a besoin. Pour des années puis des années on avait peur de demander, pour dire, OK, bien, je veux être servi en français. Et « asteure » on n'a plus peur.

 

Il y a des fois qu'on reçoit pas, mais on n'a plus peur. Il y a encore du monde qui a peur, mais, ça s'en vient, et puis avec l'éducation, et comme j'ai dit dans ce que j'ai présenté, avec le CSAP, avec l'Université Sainte-Anne, avec le ministre, avec la Fédération acadienne, ça a changé l'attitude du monde que, on n'a plus besoin de se cacher pour dire, écoute, viens voir-là, on est acadien et on est fier d'être ici. Puis, pour nous autres, la manière que ça travaille « asteure », ça travaille bien. Donc on voudrait pas que ça changerait.

 

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Merci Jacqueline. Merci M. le Président.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there anyone else? Ms. Birdsall.

 

MS. PAM BIRDSALL: Thank you, Jacqueline. When you say you feel there should be two Acadian members on the commission, what would your hope be - the conclusion they would come to? Would it be to maintain the status quo, or we heard earlier about a member at large - what would you think would be your best outcome?

 

MS. JACQUELINE SAMSON: Bien, j'ai pas vraiment pensé si loin que ça. Pour moi, c'est plus de faire sûr qu'on est bien représenté et puis bien représenté. Pour nous autres, ça travaille bien comme que c'est tout de suite. Mais s'il y aurait besoin d'avoir une pour les régions qui ne sont pas protégées, là, je pourrais voir ça comme un vote général. Je ne comprends pas comment est-ce que quelqu'un de la ville d'Halifax pourrait représenter les Acadiens du comté de Richmond.

 

MS. BIRDSALL: Good, thank you.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Are there any other questions?

 

Thank you very much for coming this afternoon.

 

MS. JACQUELINE SAMSON: Merci.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any other speakers in the audience? No other speakers? We will take a 10-minute break.

 

[3:59 p.m. The committee recessed.]

 

[4:13 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: I will now call this committee to order.

 

Given that there is no one else to speak at this time, we will recommence at 7:00 p.m. this evening and this portion of the hearings will be concluded at this time. Thank you.

 

[The committee adjourned at 4:14 p.m.]