HANSARD
Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services
STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES
Mr. Ronald Chisholm (Chairman)
Mr. Brooke Taylor
Mr. Cecil O'Donnell
Mr. Frank Corbett
Ms. Maureen MacDonald
Ms. Joan Massey
Mr. Russell MacKinnon
Mr. Leo Glavine
Ms. Diana Whalen
In Attendance:
Mrs. Darlene Henry
Legislative Committee Clerk
Mr. Gordon Hebb
Legislative Counsel
WITNESSES
Communications Nova Scotia
Mr. David Bell
Coordinator of Advertising Services
Ms. Diane LeBlanc
Communications Advisor
Executive Council
Ms. Shealagh McGrath
Agencies, Boards and Commissions Database Coordinator
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HALIFAX, THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 16, 2004
STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES
1:00 P.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Ronald Chisholm
MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to call the Standing Committee on Human Resources to order. For the record, maybe we could start with Mr. MacKinnon and go around the table.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: The agenda item we have today is the bulk ad advertisement that we have been working on for a number of months now. We did have a few meetings scheduled before this one but we were unable to totally connect with everybody, couldn't get everybody together. So we are here today, anyway.
The bulk ad. We have had discussions with Communications Nova Scotia. We have some people from Communications Nova Scotia here today just to answer any questions that we may have. So does anyone want to start? Ms. Whalen.
MS. DIANA WHALEN: What I would like to see us do today, if we could, is just to agree on the go-forward plan so that this bulk ad for the Fall will be done in a different way and I think we had agreed on that, we just hadn't picked the components of it. So maybe we could have a bit of review from the Communications staff about what their recommendation was. Again, I know that Darlene did send out some of the review notes but I just thought let's go through what the choice is right now and we can decide if their recommendation is what we would like to endorse.
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MS. DIANE LEBLANC: Hello again. I did not bring the PowerPoint presentation. I wasn't prepared to speak but what I can do is simply review some of the material that you did see on the last PowerPoint. Basically, we have been discussing the bulk ad as it had been in previous incarnations. David, I think, has presented to you on a couple of occasions, an alternate type of ad which would not include the number of positions that are available on each agency, board and commission. It is a little more what we like to think of as user-friendly in that it is more inviting to the public, tries to be a little more folksy in approach, invites people to participate in volunteering on the agencies, boards and commissions.
MR. DAVID BELL: There was sort of a general feeling, sorry to interject here . . .
MS. LEBLANC: Please.
MR. BELL: The general feeling, some of the feedback we got was that a lot of Nova Scotians felt as though the participation in the agency, board and commission process was something that was above and beyond them, it was perhaps for a select few, an elite group, depending up on the particular a, b or c. To Diane's point, what we suggested was to make it more user-friendly as well with a blurb trying to entice people to understand and appreciate that their thoughts and opinions really do matter, that it's important that they participate. We all live here together in one society and you get out of a society directly proportionally what you put into a society.
MS. LEBLANC: In addition to the actual difference in approach of the wording, David had also proposed some changes to the buy itself, reaching out to more community newspapers with what we were terming teaser ads, just letting them know that this information was going to be soon available and giving them some idea of where they could get more information as the date approached, and then purchasing and I believe the most recent proposal was in daily newspapers.
MR. BELL: What we were doing was six daily newspapers as well as approximately 25 community papers with the teaser ad. There was some discussion surrounding Web sites, feasibility and the technical challenges that might exist as to when that can be brought online for more information, as well as the possibility to set up a 1-800 number just to drive people either to the Web site and/or the 1-800 number for more information. So rather than with a fairly complicated ad requiring some interpretation with asterisks and daggers and footnotes and so on, the general message would be, we are now accepting applications for a variety of vacancies in agencies, boards and commissions, please come here or call us to get more information.
MS. LEBLANC: The challenge, I think, that is presented is turnaround time. We have been made aware that there is a telephone number available. Shelagh, with the Legislative Counsel office, is with us this afternoon, as well. She has been gathering information for the agencies, boards and commissions, and referring them on to other organizations for a while
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and actually has a database already developed, which we were not aware was as developed as it is, during our last presentation. So there is a telephone number that we could explore using in the October ad. We had suggested earlier that that might be something to look for a little further down the road, but it appears that we would be able to at least explore the possibility of using it for October.
[1:15 p.m.]
In addition, the plan included tying in the ads with news releases, letting people know that they are included in this approach, that all Nova Scotians are welcome to apply. In a nutshell, I think that covers some - we did discuss Web site development, but I think I cautioned you that that is something you're going to have to look at as far as costing and approach. It's a fairly major project when you want to keep something like that updated on a regular basis. So, you're looking at something a little more long term for that kind of approach.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey.
MS. JOAN MASSEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to start out by reminiscing a little bit about how I feel that we got into this process in the first place. Just being a newly-elected MLA, I think it was the first or second meeting that I came to with the Human Resources Committee, and when I look back I thought I was presenting something that was so new and only Joan Massey noticed that there was this huge inadequacy between men and women, only to find out that this has been a long struggle with many people. I'm so happy to see the end result today, and I think it just shows that if we all work together and we all come together with the same kinds of thoughts and feelings and understanding that we really accomplish something here, and I think we can be really proud that government can work together to achieve any goal that they set their mind to.
I'm quite happy with all the innovative, new ideas. One of them that I do like, I have to say, is that there will be a telephone number there. I think that's so important, to make something more user-friendly. I won't reiterate all the wonderful ideas that you've come forward with, but I would like to say I think it shows that there is a light at the end of the tunnel for all of us.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.
MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, just a couple of quick questions. The cost of updating this system, has there ever been a figure identified, a potential figure?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, $17,300.
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MR. TAYLOR: So, is it thought that the ad would go out once a year? Has that decision been made? What's the thought of CNS?
MR. BELL: I don't know that there has been much discussion on that. My understanding was that we would continue on the semi-annual basis, which typically is April and October. To your point, I presume it would be twice the $17,300. It would be approximately $35,000, which is a substantial increase from the current annual total, which is approximately $22,000 - is it, Darlene? It was $10,500 in April of this year.
MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committees Clerk): It is between $11,000 and $19,000 right now, currently.
MR. BELL: So that is another issue that needs to be addressed. Certainly we can enhance the media buy and we can reach more Nova Scotians, but there will be a cost associated with that. That's certainly not our bailiwick, but if we can . . .
MR. TAYLOR: It's something that I think we should identify, where is the additional funding? Is it all the departments, one department, the Internal Economy Board, the Speaker's Office, Legislative Counsel, Committees Office, do we know where it actually comes from?
MRS. HENRY: The Human Resources Committee initially pays for it.
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, initially.
MRS. HENRY: It comes out of our budget. Then it's costed out to the various departments that advertise with us. I would take that bill and, say Education put in five ads, then it would be five divided into whatever the total was, and we would recoup that much money back from them, whatever the total happens to be. (Interruptions) I think they could chase down the departments . . .
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, do we elicit any feedback from them on this proposal, or is it our way? Again, I had these questions initially, and I still carry them, when we first started discussing this. Is this part of the HR mandate?
MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't know.
MR. TAYLOR: Well, Mr. Chairman, can we be told here, is it part of our mandate? We can recommend anything, but we want to make sure that it has teeth. I'm not sure that it does.
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MRS. HENRY: I'm not quite sure, but as far as I know the ad is the ad of the Human Resources Committee, and this process has been put in place, since 1993-94, when the process came over here. They were discussing ad procedures at that time, through the subcommittee. I don't know. It has always been in place.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacKinnon.
MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, we could have a viewing of the total budget for the Human Resources Committee and its breakdown. The question that Mr. Taylor asked, I'm not too sure that he did receive an answer to it, with regard to the Internet, the costing of the Internet and the updating of the Internet. (Interruptions) No, but the figure of $17,300 was somehow enshrined in there, as if that was the cost. I don't think that's the question Mr. Taylor asked. I would certainly like to know the cost of the Internet.
MS. LEBLANC: You're quite right. That cost that was costed out for you was developed strictly for the newspaper advertising process.
MR. MACKINNON: Precisely.
MS. LEBLANC: As I said during the presentation last time, all the implications of the budget would have to be seriously explored by the committee, because they will have effects on other departments. I'm not sure what your process is, as far as approvals for that.
MR. MACKINNON: I'm not sure it's our mandate to even go that far. If it is, that's fine. But if we're going to start getting into appropriating dollars for certain issues, whether it be advertising, Internet or whatever the matter may be, number one, we would like to know what the total budget is that we're dealing with; number two, is this going to require an additional appropriation; number three, is it within our mandate; and so on. We need some clarity here, and we don't have it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Whalen.
MS. WHALEN: Ms. LeBlanc, you didn't mention the Eastlink ads which are in this Form 1. (Interruptions) I assume they are part of the $17,300?
MR. BELL: Yes, I believe so.
MS. WHALEN: Maybe we have some authority to say we could forgo that component of it, for example, and that would be $4,500 saved.
MR. BELL: The media buy, it can be somewhat of a fluid beast. If, indeed, there are only $12,000 available for spreading this message throughout the Province of Nova Scotia, we can make adjustments to meet your budget. The figure that was presented, the $17,300,
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would be not so much a wish list but it would be the full-meal deal, as it were. Costs can be trimmed. There does seem to be an ongoing appetite to spend somewhere in the vicinity of $21,000 or $22,000 to advertise, that has been the practice over the last few years. I don't know even if we can safely assume that we would have that much money to use for the upcoming ads. That component would be about another $10,500. As Diane says, we are here to deal with the tools, the financing and the budget that you tell us that we have. We can certainly make it work at a somewhat either reduced or enhanced level.
MS. LEBLANC: If I may just further clarify just a little, just so that we're all on the same page, when I first came to speak with the committee, David had already developed and presented to you a component to do strictly with the newspaper media buy, which is the bulk ad, and it was a slight revision to that, to the way you had initially done it. You had questions about other approaches. When I came last time, I just gave you a broad-stroke overview of the other types of communications that are possible. So, no, there was no costing of those. They were just, these are the possibilities. If you decide that you're interested in some of these possibilities, we can certainly explore them. But there was no costing of those types.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, a supplemental on my three questions in one. Every department, every agency, every committee of this Legislature, comes under the purview of a respective ministry. So at some point, some minister has to speak to this issue, not members of this committee. I think that in fairness to all members of the committee, if we're going to be spending somebody else's money, we would like to know where it's coming from, who's going to pay for it and who's going to answer for it. I'm all for trying to modify and to improve things, and I think a lot of progress has been made, but let's find out where the money is coming from and who has to speak to it, because we don't speak to it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I guess the thing I look at here on the teaser ad, that's estimated at about $5,500 every ad, every half a year. So it would be $11,000. If that wasn't there, we would pretty well have the same budget we had before. What are the teaser ads really going to do for us, is that something we have to have? Maybe the committee should discuss that a bit. That's just looking at it from my perspective. There wouldn't be very much change if that wasn't part of it.
MS. WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, I think that the will of this committee is to see the ad reformatted, definitely for October. That's what I'm hearing from the other members of the committee. If the budget is a problem, then I think, at a minimum, we need to look at the revamped major ad, the big one, and have it written in that more friendly fashion that we looked at, and that would allow us, at least, to make one significant change in this Fall period when we have to advertise. It might even be good to do it in a phased process, so we can see what impact that has. Is there a measurable impact, or more people? Again, it would include the phone number, which we've talked about as something that's been missing, and it would
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include a little blurb introduction, encouraging people, inviting them, really, to come and participate in this process. I think that alone would be a huge improvement.
Then, we've talked about a lot of other good ideas. Those could be phased in when we answer some of the questions about budget. But I would be very unhappy to see us start talking about the budget, who's responsible, and then essentially do nothing. We could get off on that track, and I think that would be a travesty, a waste of time, if we do that. If we have agreement here, I think we should at least put it on the table that we move forward with the revamped and better style of the main ad, and if there are funds available, then I would say the teaser ads would be the second most important thing. The Eastlink one, I'm not convinced - maybe we could try in the future, maybe in the Spring or one of the future advertisements. That way we can actually measure, too, which of the changes make a big difference.
MR. MACKINNON: The question I have on that, Mr. Chairman, and I agree with my colleague, but . . .
MS. WHALEN: I'm glad.
MR. MACKINNON: Well, I don't want her to think we were getting off on a budgetary matter here, because that seemed to be the inference. We're talking about doing things, and nobody seems to be able to quantify how much it was going to cost, where it was going to come from and who was going to speak to the issue. It's easy to say that we're getting off on rabbit tracks, but that wasn't the case at all. A simple question was asked, and it was not answered. I do agree that if we can accommodate some of these reforms or these changes within the existing financial budgetary issue, then fine.
MS. LEBLANC: And if you can give me some idea which of the other options you would like to see costed out, we can certainly start exploring and pulling that information together for you for future discussions.
MR. MACKINNON: Well, the question on the Internet still hasn't been answered.
MR. TAYLOR: If I might, Mr. Chairman, if I could, just on a point of order. I think what we should do at this point is entertain a motion, I find a lot of sense in what the honourable member has suggested to deal with the upcoming ad. That's very important. Then we can deal with the financial implications. I share some of the concerns with Eastlink, too, and not because it's Eastlink, but in the rural areas, certainly the areas I represent and some of the more remote areas, people don't have Eastlink, quite frankly, and those are the people I thought we wanted to target. I wonder if you want to put your thoughts in the form of a motion to incorporate those advancements that we generally agree to for the next ad, or can we do it just in a general sense?
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[1:30 p.m.]
MS. WHALEN: Certainly, then I think the motion would be that I would recommend that the committee request that we make a change to the bulk ad, that the format and content change as was shown to the committee in the earlier meeting, and that we look at a phased approach to adding other media, as they're costed, and also that we get the answers to questions about the budget implications, because we do agree that it's significant. Was that motion quite clear? (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Do we have a seconder for that?
MS. MASSEY: I second.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Okay, I guess the direction is pretty clear as to where we're going. I think this is the one that was presented to us a while back, what the ad would look like.
MR. TAYLOR: Nova Scotia needs you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. It is quite a bit different than what we're used to seeing. The information - maybe I should read that information that's on there, just exactly what's going to go on the bottom. There was some concern . . .
MS. WHALEN: Is that the teaser ad?
MR. CHAIRMAN: No, that's the ad for the paper, I believe.
MR. TAYLOR: We don't have all those symbols and things, do we? Where's the phone number - it's up here. (Interruptions) The phone number is right in there with the fax number. I'm comfortable with it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any further business?
MS. LEBLANC: Could I ask for a clarification, just so that I'm certain, regarding the costing? If you would like me to go back and start looking at some of that costing, we did talk about several different options as far as Web site development was concerned. I'm wondering if you have any particular approach in mind, because we did present a couple of different options. I would like to have . . .
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MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I think what we should do is have each option that we talked about costed. I think the Eastlink has a figure attached to it and the teaser did. If we had that breakdown, then I think it would only be incumbent on us to discern, between now and the next time we deal with this, as to what are the implications financially. You don't want to do something that doesn't have teeth, that's my concern. I have no trouble supporting it and making it a recommendation, but I would like to know that there's going to be funding available at the end of the day, that's all. I do recognize that it might be outside of our mandate, but that's not a major issue for any standing committee, really, we do things by agreement.
MS. LEBLANC: The other issue that I wanted to ask the committee about was a news release in conjunction with the ads. That's an approach that we can use with no budgetary cost, direct cost. Would you like me to prepare a draft of something that you could consider as a possibility to accompany that and send it along?
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think that would be appropriate, yes, that would be fine.
MS. WHALEN: I wonder if I could ask, as well, it was mentioned - Shealagh is with us - that you have a database on other organizations, perhaps the committee would be interested in hearing what is currently being done with these applications as they come in, because we have an opportunity today. I just thought we might take advantage of Ms. McGrath's presence and ask her to just answer a little bit about that current database, which seemed to have been a good thing that you've found in looking at this. Could we, with everybody's indulgence?
MR. CHAIRMAN: We're kind of putting you on the spot here. (Interruptions)
MS. SHEALAGH MCGRATH: Well, I've been doing this job since 1999, and I sort of inherited it from someone else. It's a very old database. The IT people are looking right now at updating it. Their idea, in the future, is to allow each department to access certain sections of the database, so Education could go in and look at all their boards, current listing of all the members, an up-to-date board chart. Right now, that's what I have. And an applicants list.
So when we publish the ad, the applications come in, I enter them in the database and send off the original applications to each department. They take it from there. That's my main function there. Then, of course, as people get appointed, the paperwork flows back through Executive Council, and I'm able to then go in and update the members. I don't know when this new system - it's a lot of work, it's costing a lot, and it hasn't even been presented formally yet. We've just met a couple of times so far. Environment and Labour, they have many boards and they have to be very organized with their boards, lots of rules and regulations, so they're sort of the ones that got this off the ground. They were going to have a database written just for them, so then they decided to include it for everybody.
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Even when the ads don't run, I constantly receive applications and I receive phone calls. People can find Executive Council in the phone book pretty easily. We field calls, faxes and e-mails.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. MacDonald.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: When the bulk ad goes in the paper, will it be your number that will be listed?
MS. MCGRATH: We have a spare line in our office, and we were ready to have it hauled out of there. When all of this came up, I asked my boss if we could just use this number. There are three of us there but it will be me, mostly, who will be fielding the calls from this number. It's a 424 number.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Maybe after the ad runs, we could find out if that puts too much pressure on your office or how successful it was, so we're sure to have a good balance, getting applicants but also being able to handle them. I think that's important.
MS. MCGRATH: Sure, yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: When we were talking earlier about costing - for a lot of people, believe it or not, in this day and age, the call to Halifax from out in the country is not an option. People are very careful, if they don't have Community Unlimited or things like that. I would like to know what it would cost, sometime down the road, to have an 800 line to deal with the ABCs. I will tell you, it may be one of the tools that actually does encourage people to want to become more involved. If you see an address in Halifax, it seems a bit foreign to people out in the country, or you see a 424 number. It's just an option, maybe it's economically unviable, I don't know. It may be something we can just trigger when the ads are out, for a couple of weeks - I don't know if you can get that type of service from Aliant. By the way, is the strike settled, did we get the final results today? (Interruptions) They're supposed to announce today, are they not? Anyway, I'm getting off track.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Whalen.
MS. WHALEN: I was just going to clarify, for my own benefit and maybe for the others, that when it was first mentioned I thought you might have a database of other organizations that you send out the information to. Do you get involved at all when the ad is going out, to notify other organizations - nothing in the community to say watch for this ad or here are the applicants or the . . .
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MS. MCGRATH: I'll get a few phone calls saying I'm interested in applying, and I'll say, well, we're running the ad in a week or so, how about waiting and you'll see the most current openings at that time. But, no, I don't send it out.
MS. WHALEN: So you're there, certainly responding to any incoming inquiries, but not sending it out to the community groups at large. I might have misunderstood, just in the beginning, about that database you had.
MS. MCGRATH: It's strictly just the departments and a few agencies. The Liquor Corporation, they're kind of a separate entity, so I would make sure they get their own applications, it doesn't go through a departmental person at all, but mostly it's the departments that I deal with.
MS. WHALEN: Just one follow-up to what Mr. Taylor was saying, what I was wondering was, is there an e-mail address we could include in that ad? An awful lot of people in the rural areas are connected to the Internet, and maybe then there's no cost involved in contact.
MS. MCGRATH: We have an e-mail address.
MS. WHALEN: But we're not including it, yet, in the ad (Interruptions) Are we? Oh, it is the last one. Okay, as long as that's there, then I think . . .
MR. MACKINNON: That was part of your motion.
MS. WHALEN: Well, I didn't say e-mail, but there you go. Just double-checking that it's there.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Ms. McGrath.
MRS. HENRY: Just for my clarification, you like this style of ad without the footnotes and the dots and dashes and asterisks - so, when I send this out to the departments and the contacts saying this is the new format, send me your information according to the way we're laying it out here. (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: The part down there, the gender equality . . .
MRS. HENRY: Affirmative action.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The affirmative action part of it will be there, highlighted or whatever?
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MRS. HENRY: Well, we'll figure out where we can put it prominently so that everybody sees that, but it will definitely be in there.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Anything further?
MR. MACKINNON: So moved.
[The committee adjourned at 1:41 p.m.]
