MR. CHAIRMAN: I think we are going to get under way when everybody gets situated. This afternoon we have with us Edna Budden and Beverly Brown with the United Families to talk to us about the impact of the Devco decision. I understand they have a presentation that they would like to make first. As the committee members would know, but for the information of the witnesses, the process is that you go ahead and make your presentation and then we divide the remaining time up among the caucuses and they ask questions at that point. So if you would like to begin.
MS. EDNA BUDDEN: First of all, I guess you are all aware, my name is Edna Budden. I am the Chairman of United Families and with me is Beverly Brown, Co-Chairman. I would like to thank everyone for the invitation today to come and speak on the loss of the Devco dollars to the economy of Cape Breton.
As you all know, United Families was formed after the federal government's announcement to withdraw from the coal industry by December 31, 2000. I have given you all a copy of our presentation. In it, you will find some inserts that you can refer to at a later time. What United Families is, basically, is a group of miners' wives who came together and turned our fears and desperation into positive motivation to have the federal government look at the unfair and unjust package that was handed down to the Devco workers.
The December 31, 2000 date, we feel, is totally unrealistic and placed undue hardship and stress upon the families. The withdrawal with such haste, it was done without consideration. There was no consultation taken. There was no study done to realize the impact that it would have on the families or the men. I felt that it was an unjust punishment for men who served 20 to 30 years working underground in the coal mines.
We all know that Devco was formed back in 1968 and the original intent was to phase out the coal industry over a 15 year period and during that time, to bring in new industry and revitalize the economy of Cape Breton. We also all know that today we are no better off than we were back in 1968. They say that there are more people working in Cape Breton now than there were back then. That may be so but if you compare the wage scale, I would say there is probably a lot more part-time work and even if you look at, we will say, CBC or Pit Pony, if you go out for one day, it is counted as a statistic. Certainly the loss of the wages of Devco will have a major, devastating impact on the economy of Cape Breton.
What we have done is, we have just returned from Ottawa and basically did this very same presentation there. We referred back to the Donald Report which was done back in 1966 where it stated, "It is ethically wrong and economically unsound to be introducing young people into the mining force where there is no assurance of future employment, where operations are basically unprofitable, and where no skills useful in other fields of industry except mining are acquired.". The Donald Report also stated that the opening of a new mine at Lingan should not be undertaken and that, "An enlightened early retirement plan should be adopted as a means of alleviating the social dislocation resulting from the mine closures called for in the coal rationalization program.".
We say that government went against those recommendations and what they did was, they opened up new mines to produce more coal when the oil prices went up, lifted the hiring ban in 1974, brought young men into the industry. You have to realize that in Cape Breton coal mining has been a part of our culture. These miners went in to work, thinking they had a future, just like their forefathers had before them, felt that they were secure and that someday they would retire. But now they are being faced with a future of no job, no income and possibly no home.
We think it is a very unfair and unjust way to treat these Cape Breton coal miners and these Devco workers. The Cape Breton coal industry, contrary to how it has been portrayed as a bottomless money pit, $1.6 billon over 30 years, and what I say to that is that it certainly has provided. It has kept the economy going, tax wraparound and whatnot. I think the Auditor General's Report would show you they probably had a return of between $4 billion to $6 billion. To me, that wasn't a bad investment.
Whenever downsizing has occurred with Devco over the years, there were 6,500 employees in 1968 and presently we have 1,640. There has always been some sort of precedent set, like with the pre-retirement leave, an early retirement, a compassionate disability, except for this time. Out of 1,640 workers, we have 340 who are looking at retirement pension and I think 100-some pre-68-ers.
It is not the choice of the Devco workers that they are being faced with such a grim future. It is the choice of government who have decided that they want out of the coal industry. I believe it is their duty to look at these men and realize that the type of work they
have done underground, the environment that they have worked in, the damage to their lungs from coal dust and gases, wet, damp conditions, arthritis, injuries. I am sure if you went through the list of Devco workers, you wouldn't find very many who haven't sustained some sort of injury to the neck, back or legs. They have gone each day down into the bowels of the earth - and believe me, it is not pretty sight. I have been to Phalen Mine. I have been down in it and right now I hear that some places are working in water right up to their shoulders and they have gone every day. I believe that they deserve to be treated a lot better than what they are being treated by the package that has come down of January 28th.
We are also looking at 1,200 families who are being left without medical plan benefits in an area of Canada that has one of the highest rates of cancer in the country. Mr. Goodale - and I have included what we did with the Devco deal that came down on January 28th and there is one included in your package - we broke it down and we talked about this wonderful severance of up to $70,000. Right away, that tells me that not every employee would get $70,000. Not only that, by the time the tax wraparound and the government gets their taxes, I believe it is over $24,000 right off the top that goes back to government in taxes.
When they are allocated for their unemployment, and I just took a basic rate of $300 per week over an 80 week period, which they will lose their benefits for that period, the government stands to get back another $24,000 and some for a total return of over approximately $48,000; 68 per cent of their money back. What the employee is left with at the end of the day is, they apply for their unemployment which would be extended for 104 weeks, minus their 80 weeks that it has been allocated, they are left with 24 weeks of EI less the two week waiting period; 22 weeks of EI benefits and at the end of that time, they have nothing. Guess what the next step is? It's social services. Guess who is going to suffer? Government will ultimately suffer because they will not get any tax wraparound from that. This whole province will be impacted in some way. It will have a ripple effect and that is the point I am trying to make. It does not make any economic sense not to come forth with a package that is going to provide for these workers.
Mr. Goodale also talked about 650 people being severed and the other 500 being employed at Prince. As it stands now, Prince Mine has not been sold. I asked him, has it been sold? No. Well nobody can justifiably tell me there will be 500 people employed and retained if there is no buyer. If I was going to buy a company, I would not want somebody to tell me how many people I had to keep and retain. So to me, in reality, we are not talking about 650 people being severed, we are talking about 1,200 people who are being severed and 1,200 families. Proportionally, to take 1,200 jobs out of Cape Breton would be like removing 90,000 out of Halifax or 200,000 out of Toronto.
To put Cape Breton on par with the rest of Nova Scotia, you would have to create approximately 16,000 jobs. Our unemployment rate now is 20.1 per cent. Social services statistics, 2,038 people as of the end of March who have exhausted the employment insurance and who have been forced on to social services because they cannot find work. What is being
done is a hole is being created in our economy that I don't think we will be able to recover from. I know everybody is looking toward this gas offshore, but that could be seven years off. I am sure you have all seen the study that was released on the gas, the article in The Cape Breton Post which backs up exactly what I am saying. We have a ways to go yet. We know that Cape Breton has to turn itself around and that we all have to work together to build the economy, but it makes no economic sense to create a hole without at least something in place to withstand the impact.
What United Families did was we asked government to do a study on the Devco workers and on the impact and that wasn't done. So what we did was we implemented a survey and there is a copy of it included in your package. What we found out was that the largest percentage of workers filled the 40 to 50 age bracket. These are the men that are being left out in the cold under this proposal. The highest percentage of workers fell in the 20 to 25 years service bracket. The response rate for the miner as being the major wage earner of the household was 91.2 per cent. Families with children in the 11 to 20 age bracket, still in school and university, was the highest bracket with 50.3 per cent. With the announcement of the closure, adults reported a 66.5 per cent rate of stress-related illness. Children affected in a negative way with worry and comments about their future, fell in the 52 per cent bracket. We have heard stories of children even breaking down in school crying, wondering what is going to happen. Families who expected to lose their homes were in the 39.6 per cent bracket. What we did was survey 498 people. Out of that, 197 said, yes they would lose their home.
The stress, suffering and illness that has been caused by the announcement of the closure of Devco, since January 28th, has been unbelievable. We know because we are in contact daily. We receive phone calls from people wondering what they are going to do. They are waiting. My worry is, how much longer do we have to wait?
What United Families did in Ottawa was, we asked government, we know that there will have to be remediation in Prince Mine. I don't think this will be the end of the coal mining era in Cape Breton. It will eventually be privatized. But what we asked was that the government create a bridge through remediation, or whatever, to allow these men to earn their pensionable time through retirement. Government stands to save a whole lot of money right now by doing what they are doing because the average age of a miner is 47 years.
So, that was our first request, some sort of a bridge program to allow these men the time to work and retire and the continuation of medical plan benefits, which I think is very important for the families. Or, we ask for a service pension and I don't feel bad in asking that because I believe these men deserve it. If you compare it, there have been other Crown Corporations that have closed. Some have gone out with 15 years, some 8 years, and I think when consideration is given for the health risks, working underground all these years, and the cost that it would take to look after these families with a secure income, I really don't think that was a whole lot to ask. At least government will keep some money flowing into the economy and keep a tax base going.
We also put forth a recommendation to government for the economy because, of course, as mothers and wives we are very interested in building a future for our children. We all know that government has to spend some money to clean up the Sydney tar ponds. So, what we put forth was the idea of an environmental institute in conjunction with UCCB. It makes sense to capitalize on a bad situation and I think what they could do is put an environmental institute there and make Cape Breton the environmental capital of the world; train people, have people come in from all over the world. It could be a first-class training centre and also locate some environmental government offices in Cape Breton, put some long-term sustainable employment in there. So, that was the recommendation that we did on behalf, just an idea or a concept that we have that maybe might help to do something in the future.
I just want to make a quick reference to this where it says, "The impact of natural gas on Devco coal industry is likely to have been small over the next decade. 'The impending closure of the CBRM (Cape Breton Development Corp.) would result in a much more serious negative impact on the CBDC (Cape Breton Regional Municipality) economy,' . . .". This was a quote by Gardner Pinfold Consulting Economists Ltd. It was in today's paper.
What I have been saying all along I believe is true and I think that I am asking for the province to put pressure on the federal government to come forth with a better package. We have been working very closely, we have been to Ottawa, we had a meeting with the Premier on Saturday and he assures me that he is in constant contact with Ottawa and that he is working very hard to get a better deal.
Basically, I guess that is about the size of my presentation. Now, I want Bev to say a few words and talk a little bit about the culture.
MS. BEVERLY BROWN: First, I would like to say that coal mining in Cape Breton has been a very strong part of our history. My own personal experience, and I am like many other people in Cape Breton, my father was a coal miner for over 48 years. After retiring he was diagnosed with silicosis and suffered extremely for years and years until finally he died last year with that. My biggest fear is how many of our coal miners now have undetected hazardous illnesses from the mines. They will be put out on the street, basically, as it stands right now with no medical plans. That is a very big concern, because I watched my father suffer for years and years with silicosis before it took his death. I have three brothers now who are coal miners, two have since retired, one is now short eight months from his retirement.
I married a coal miner. When he was 24 years old, he was buried underground. It was what we knew. He went back to work with no problem after he recovered over a year. He worked for over 20 more years and after his accident there was the No. 26 explosion. He lost three very close friends who were raised and living very closely on the same street as us. So many of these people have suffered themselves through accidents, they have lost family members and friends through the industry.
Again, it is the hazards that they have faced. Their bodies are not like a normal person who works on the surface. They have aged 10 years or more, at least, than the average surface worker because of the conditions underground. I think a big factor in all this is that the medical plan, like I said, they will be out on the streets, not just themselves but their families, with no medical plan in Cape Breton. We have a 20.1 per cent cancer rate. Again, a lot of these illnesses from the hazardous conditions that have developed may not show up for years. So, I think coal mining is definitely part of our history.
Like I said, my father had the opportunity, after 48 long years, of retiring on a very small pension but basically he was allowed to retire with dignity. We didn't have a whole lot but we had what the next person had because most of the people I knew at that time were coal miners. I grew up thinking everybody was basically a coal miner, until I was older I realized that not everybody was a coal miner. I think most of the people in Cape Breton, though the generations, would feel the same way.
At this point, I think that we understand that the government wants out of the coal industry but I think they should do what they have done in past generations. I think they should look after their workers, let them retire in a fair, just manner, as they did before. They came out with early retirement or pre-retirement back in 1968 with the Donald Report and I think they should do the same now. These men, after these long years, it is a Crown Corporation, most of them worked between 20 to 30 years, I think they should be given the opportunity like the other workers have had through the generations and it can be done. It is there. It is workable.
Like I said, if they want out, I think that they should find a way to look after the workers because there are feasible ways that the workers can be looked after. Again, in turn, as they do this, not to leave a big hole in the economy where, after two years, these people are out on the street in Cape Breton. We could have up to 3,700 people with the direct spin-offs out on the streets. Our economy in Cape Breton just can't take that. That is just too big of a huge hole for us to fill in such a short time.
MS. BUDDEN: I would like to for just one minute make reference - there is a copy of this in your folder - to Dr. Michael Gallivan, who is very active with the Medical Society, he provided me with a letter to take to Ottawa. In it he talks about Cape Breton, the cancer and whatnot but there is one part on Page 2 at the bottom where he says, "Anything which leads to further unemployment in this area will automatically lead to further poverty and further ill health. Already since the announcement on the DEVCO closure I note a steady increase in visits to my office with problems directly related to this announcement. For instance I notice patients whose blood pressure previously was under good control now coming in with uncontrolled Hypertension. I note a similar increase in such problems as Anxiety, Panic Disorder, and Peptic Ulcer Disease. No doubt as the closure looms nearer these problems will increase steadily.".
The actual impact hasn't even hit and that's what the problem is, the money is still circulating, there have been no wages lost. I know what we are all suffering now, it is tremendous, the stress is unbelievable. What will happen when it actually takes place? It is too late then. People need to realize now that they are going to have to stand strong. It just seems to me that we have been working very, very hard since January to bring attention to this issue and if you just sit back and wait, once the money is gone, it is too late then and there is nothing else in Cape Breton at the present time.
You talk about gas offshore and that will come, and we have to work to make Cape Breton a better place but I will tell you, if they don't come forward with a better package and keep the money flowing in the Cape Breton economy, we are sunk as it stands now and I think this backs me up today, the study that was done. I don't think we should have to wait too much longer before we get an answer. I would like to see something come forth from government before Parliament ends June 11th. We would kind of like to have some of this stress removed from our lives.
We have the summer vacation coming, just like everybody else, and certainly it is no joy every day of your life, from the time you wake up in the morning until the time you go bed at night, this is continuously on your mind. Your life is not your own any more, your phone is ringing off the wall, people calling concerned and asking if you heard anything, no matter where you go, people are asking, not that you mind, if you can give them any sense of relief, you tell them what you know and you tell them the truth. But I just think that it is very unfair to have people just hanging out on a limb. We are asking government to come forth and give us an answer, the answer that we want before Parliament ends June 11th.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. What we will do is we will begin with 20 minutes for each of the caucuses beginning with the Opposition caucus. I wanted to ask one question just for clarification, which we will take out of our time allotment. I wonder if you could tell us what you see the division of responsibility being between the federal government in this regard and what, if any, role that you see the provincial government playing in this?
MS. BUDDEN: Well, I'm not a politician, I will tell you that, I have never been involved with politics much. I have learned an awful lot since January 28th, believe me. It is a federal government decision, there is no getting out of that. It is a Crown Corporation. But I know the Premier - I'll just tell you as I see it - it is a Liberal Government in Ottawa and we have a Liberal Government provincially with Premier MacLellan and he is supposed to be working very closely with Ottawa to get a better deal. That's as much as I can say. He assures me that he is working very close, I have to trust him in that and go with that and do whatever we can to put that pressure on the government to come forth and make it happen.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Corbett.
MR. FRANK CORBETT: I guess I can call you Edna and Bev.
MS. BUDDEN: Certainly.
MR. CORBETT: We don't have to be that formal. It is good to see you here. First to you, Bev, because part of your presentation centred around the family unit and especially how it impacted because of medical needs and so on. I wonder if you could tell us, there were a couple of stories that I heard from different rallies on how it would impact financially on families because of families that are carrying very large medical bills. Without naming the families' names, just by way of example.
[1:30 p.m.]
MS. BROWN: Just from our impact study we have had medicals which could range anywhere from very little to up to $2,000. Some of these people have checked with other companies to see, if Devco goes down, would they be accepted, and were told that they would not be accepted because of the heavy pre-existing illnesses, for the medication expense.
What we will find is that a lot of the workers would not pass medicals for other companies, no doubt. I mean, Edna's husband, alone, could not pass a medical for house insurance and he is just one of the workers.
Like I said, most of these men now have pre-existing illnesses because of the condition. Although they are able to work with them, they may not be able to qualify to have a medical for another company and to be hired, actually, for another company or to qualify for medical benefits through another company. That is very concerning because we have had some people with some serious illnesses, who have children with serious illnesses.
One family, in particular they have the receipts for over $1,000 to keep three children with enzyme deficiencies alive. We have another lady who has been extremely ill for the last number of years who can go from between $1,000 to $2,000 per month. That is a very big concern in Cape Breton right now, the medical plan.
MR. CORBETT: I knew what the answer would be, that is why I asked the question there because, as I have said, we have been at various rallies together.
The pension side intrigues me, Edna, because we have all been inundated with the 75 formula and so on. I think we have got something in the back here that shows - I think it may have been a collective agreement - the Pittston agreement?
MS. BROWN: That's a private agreement for the United States. It was taken off the Internet where they came out with a 20 year service pension due to a closure.
MR. CORBETT: Yes. Has anybody costed the fact of reverting to a service pension?
MS. BROWN: Yes.
MR. CORBETT: Could you enlighten us on that?
MS. BROWN: The provincial government did some cost figuring. It was $305 million - the figure I got - to provide a 20 year service pension and, I think, $10 million for medical benefits.
MR. CORBETT: When you were recently in Ottawa and you had occasion to meet with various politicians - not the least of which was the Prime Minister - did you have the time to speak to him about the site remediation and it staying under the auspices, if you will, of Devco?
MS. BROWN: Actually, that was a very brief meeting. We were told before we went in that he did not have much time. I think the main question that we wanted to ask him, that we got to ask him was, would he intervene on behalf of Devco and the Devco workers, would he intervene in the situation? He did say that he would sit and talk to Mr. Goodale and Senator Al Graham. We didn't get a chance to discuss anything other than that.
MR. CORBETT: Have you had the chance to discuss this site remediation with any people in authority on that?
MS. BROWN: Yes, we have mentioned that there are sites with the remediation and being tied in with Devco for pension over-points. The issues were brought up but we didn't get any feedback as of yet on it.
MR. CORBETT: Now, in those sites, besides there being environmental problems, there is also saleable coal in those sites.
MS. BROWN: Yes.
MR. CORBETT: I have heard estimates as high as 1 million tonnes.
MS. BROWN: Basically, that would be like an asset. It should all come under assets, I would say. My personal opinion is that anything that is there that has a profit to it or a sale to it should come under Devco. I, personally, think it should come under the Devco assets but, I mean, what will be done with it? We haven't been told yet.
MS. BUDDEN: But the assets should really be frozen, in my opinion. That has not been done. I have been told that there are assets being taken out from Devco. I don't work at the mine site but, of course, you get the stories and people see what is going on. I think those assets should be frozen, as it stands right now, that it should go back in the pile.
Also, there is another question I have in my mind too. There are pension funds with Devco. There is a contributory/non-contributory and I have been told there is a surplus in those funds. I wonder what will happen to that surplus money at the end of the day? Is that money there that could be put into helping the package along or doing something better for the Devco workers? I don't know a lot about it but I certainly have a question in regard to that.
MR. CORBETT: There is the bill in front of the House right now concerning pension surpluses, federally.
MS. BUDDEN: Is that right?
MR. CORBETT: A lot of these questions relating towards the pensions because I think they go hand in hand, whether it is severance or whether we look at retaining Devco as an employer to help remediate the sites. I notice in some of your calculations, or your survey, some numbers about ages and so on. Has anybody, Bev or Edna, done a calculation of how much work would have to be done to get the workers to a pension, if we kept on using the 75 formula?
MS. BUDDEN: I can't go back right to the bottom worker, but I believe the biggest group, I have heard it mentioned between five years to seven years and I have been told there are six to seven years remediation.
MS. BROWN: It would be seasonal.
MS. BUDDEN: Six months on, it would be seasonal work.
MR. CORBETT: You know it is nothing new in Cape Breton where they did remediate old sites and I think there was a company called Selminco.
MS. BROWN: Dump sites.
MR. CORBETT: Yes, the old dump sites and so on, and then sold the coal back to probably people like NSPI.
The intriguing number here, when you talk about the wage earners and 91 per cent being the sole wager-earner. How deep did you go with those numbers? Did you find out, my spouse works part time?
MS. BUDDEN: No, the question was asked, was the Devco worker the major wage earner of the household? That was the question.
MR. CORBETT: So you didn't ask if there was a sole wage earner, just the major wage earner.
MS. BROWN: Just the major wager earner, yes.
MS. BUDDEN: If they were the major wage earner, yes.
MR. CORBETT: It has been a while. What would you say is the average salary of a Devco miner?
MS. BUDDEN: Well, I will tell you, and you will notice this, actually this came about, it was kind of fun. We all know the cost of living has gone up and you wonder every day why you don't have a whole lot of money in the bank. I'm saying, God, Edna, what's wrong? What is going on? Anyway, I found a pay stub from 1987 one day and I took one from 1998 and I did a comparison and I found out that in 11 years, we got $55.04 raise in 11 years and we all know how everything went up, the cost of taxes and the cost of living. I did it up and I just put it in front of us and I said there, that is why times are tough. Basically, now, I would say my husband, that would be around his gross, that is at the surface work right there. Right now, he is underground and gross would be about $695 a week. Probably in looking at net, maybe $365 a week.
MR. CORBETT: So your husband would be about average, then, you are saying.
MS. BUDDEN: Yes, that would be average.
MS. BROWN: That is the average salary, yes. There is an underground shift differential.
MS. BUDDEN: Yes, there are things.
MS. BROWN: It is not a whole lot more money but it would make a little bit of a difference.
MS. BUDDEN: But they took a wage freeze back in the 1980's, like the government workers, and we suffered through that and we cut corners and everything and I will tell you, we can't suffer the loss of an income.
MR. CORBETT: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Helen MacDonald.
MS. HELEN MACDONALD: Welcome. I guess, if you wouldn't mind, I would like to hear just a little bit about your real gut reactions to what happened in Ottawa. I know you were pleased with the reception you received and you were pleased with the openness of people there. I guess for this record, it would be interesting to hear exactly how you felt about whether or not there is any more in that envelope, whether or not there is any hope of people really trying to move this agenda forward and giving further consideration.
MS. BUDDEN: Yes, I believe that when this decision came down, they may not have been prepared for the opposition that came forward. They know we are not going away. We have made that very clear. We brought out some facts and figures I guess they weren't prepared for, either, with the survey and I guess what we did, we tried to pull together everything we had, not just for Devco but for Cape Breton. Although we couldn't get any definite commitments, the Prime Minister did say he would intervene and look the issue over. I have been in contact with Ottawa and I am told that they are reviewing the issue and they are trying to see what that they can do to maybe come out with something better but there is no guarantee with that but at least they are looking it over, anyway, at this point in time. We were treated very well up there.
MS. BROWN: I think, too, that what we created, was we showed the human factor, the human side, the families. We gave a crystal clear picture of exactly what the families were facing and what the economy of Cape Breton was facing, very straightforward, very basic. I really felt that they were relating to that, that we actually got through that there was a serious problem in Cape Breton and that we needed help.
MS. BUDDEN: We made it clear we didn't want a handout either. These men want to work. My husband would prefer to work for the next few years into his retirement and collect a wage every week. That would be our choice but at the end of the day, if that is not possible, I would rather they came forward then with a service pension, than look at a severance and then look at being put on social services maybe two years from now.
MS. HELEN MACDONALD: The business community in Cape Breton, I guess in particular on your side, on the Glace Bay and New Waterford side, they are probably a little bit more active in thinking through exactly what the impact of this is. Have there been meetings in relationship to this with businesses in Sydney? I know the Northside has been trying to spur on the groups there because I sometimes think, living on the Northside, that the community itself, I think they think of the miners and the miners' families and what that is going to mean when we see this played out but I guess I really wonder how are the businesses in Cape Breton really realizing the severe impact this is going to have.
MS. BUDDEN: I think they certainly are realizing it, although I would like to see more initiative maybe if they came together as a group to put some pressure on the federal government but from our trip to Ottawa and from going around to the different businesses, speaking to them, certainly they were very supportive, financially, to have us go, and very
concerned. They know what the impact is going to do to their businesses. Why they haven't been more public with it, I don't know, but I know that they are very concerned.
MS. HELEN MACDONALD: Because I am sure that there are many small businesses and some of your little community businesses that are going to have a very difficult time surviving in Cape Breton without a truly viable mining industry.
MS. BROWN: That is right.
MS. BUDDEN: There have been layoffs already, just with the announcement of the closure. I have a friend, a big business man, actually, and I spoke to him back maybe six weeks ago, seven weeks ago, and he saw a definite difference in his business already, just with the announcement and that is what he blamed it on.
MS. HELEN MACDONALD: I know people on the Northside who I talked to, they feel that the economy has already begun to slow down drastically.
MS. BROWN: Yes, definitely.
MS. HELEN MACDONALD: You know, the businesses, because people are not spending money the way they did in the past.
Could I just ask you a question about the study. Did you survey people, families from all the mines or did you concentrate on Glace Bay?
MS. BUDDEN: It was just at random. What we did, we gave some to a couple of girls over on the Northside to do some calling. We took a list from Devco and split it up. We had people in New Waterford and people in Glace Bay, on the Northside, and passed it out and it was done at random.
MS. HELEN MACDONALD: A question about the young people. Has anything really happened as far as working with the families and the children? I am thinking particularly of school children and young people. I know the NSTU has initiated a project, but I am wondering has anything begun to happen with the school system and young people?
MS. BUDDEN: I believe some speakers have gone into the schools to speak to the young people, just within the last couple of weeks.
MS. HELEN MACDONALD: I am sure for kids knowing, I mean Dr. Gallivan indicates in his letter the stress on families, so I am sure that trickles down to the children as well.
MS. BROWN: Yes, very early in this game, when the announcement came down, we were in contact with the student union president at UCCB. At that point he had mentioned that he was very concerned, that he had students coming in to talk to him who were breaking down and they were working, basically, a little bit with the students at that time.
MS. HELEN MACDONALD: So the NSTU project that has taken place, have you people been involved in that as yet?
MS. BROWN: No. It is something they are working on.
MS. HELEN MACDONALD: I guess that is it for now, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will move now to the Progressive Conservative caucus. Mr. Muir.
MR. JAMES MUIR: Ms. Budden and Ms. Brown, I would like to thank you for coming and I would like to compliment you for taking the leadership that you have in your community and the very courageous stand that you have taken. I just wanted you to know that we certainly recognize the position that you have taken and support your efforts. Your leadership in your community is a model for us all. I can speak for some communities where I would have liked to have seen that not too many years ago.
You talked when you first spoke, Ms. Budden, about a better date for closing. What would you see as an appropriate date for closing the mines? You are looking, I am sure, at the numbers and are saying if we can keep them going for . . .
MS. BUDDEN: Yes, when I say that, I mean I believe that there could be a phase-out and/or even with the remediation. They are going to withdraw from the coal industry by December 31, 2000. To me that is just unrealistic. I believe they have to put something in place for these workers with their pensionable points and bridge them into something.
MR. MUIR: How many years would it take? I think you indicated there were about 400 people who would be eligible for pension, is that correct?
MS. BUDDEN: Right now.
MS. BROWN: It is 340 actually.
MR. MUIR: That are eligible in 1999?
MS. BROWN: As of the year 2000, they would be eligible for 340 pensions.
MR. MUIR: And what part of the year 2000, would that be at the end of the year 2000?
MS. BROWN: The end of the year, December 31, 2000.
MR. MUIR: So that is approximately 25 per cent. Now, the next group, and I can't remember these figures but I have seen them, the next group, there is quite a significant portion of people who I think are between 40 and 50.
MS. BUDDEN: There are 790 Devco workers between the ages of 40 and 49 years old who have 20 or more years service.
MR. MUIR: So that would bring it up to approximately 1,200 is that right? How long, I mean, I guess, between 40 and 49, there would be a sliding scale there, would five years pick up 70 per cent of them?
MS. BUDDEN: I would say yes, it would pick up a big majority of them.
MS. BROWN: Yes, if we went past it, if we went five years as of next year.
MS. BUDDEN: We will put it this way. If they came out with a 20 years service pension, we'll say, every employee at the end of the day, there would be about 215 people left.
MR. MUIR: So the 20 year service pension would certainly, if that was like they did in the Pittston mine down there in West Virginia, if you got a 20 year service pension that would alleviate the thing. The other thing which you spoke of very strongly is the medical thing. I guess this is very much a key part of your pitch. Regardless of what happens, if you don't have the medical, it is going to be much worse. What was the reaction? Had the federal people thought about that?
MS. BUDDEN: Actually, I think that was brought to the floor of the House of Commons by Mr. Gerald Keddy and Mr. Goodale did say if there were any proposals that were out there that they would be willing to look at them. I think that was a concern and probably something that they would look at. Considering Cape Breton and the rate of cancer and these workers and the pre-existing conditions, it is very, very important that we retain our medical plan benefits. You probably won't find a miner that would pass a medical, I will tell you, for another company.
MR. MUIR: Is there any future, speaking as the wives of miners and as people in the community, what is the feeling, is there any future at all in the coal industry in Cape Breton?
MS. BUDDEN: I believe there is, yes.
MS. BROWN: Yes, we still have coal in Cape Breton, we are not out of coal. The government has decided that they want out of coal but the coal is still in Cape Breton. There are problems with the Phalen Mine but we still have Prince. Donkin is still there, studies have been done on Donkin and comments have been made, you hear miners say, it is not a coal mine it is a gold mine, so I think there could be a future for coal in Cape Breton. But who is going to take it over and how, we don't know. Again, if the government decided they wanted to stay in the coal industry, the coal is still there, definitely.
MS. BUDDEN: The Donkin Mine has 1.5 billion tons of coal in it, probably about 100 years of coal mining left there for whoever gets it. I read a Senate committee report where Mr. Farrell stated that if it went private that government would get about 65 cents of the profit dollar and the shareholders would be about 35 cents.
MR. MUIR: Has there been any talk up there of opening the Donkin Mine? Have you heard any rumbles of anybody that is interested in doing that?
MS. BUDDEN: No, I know that Mr. Farrell is interested because he has gone before the Senate committee and I have reports from the Internet. It is certainly well known that he is interested in it. But we weren't told anything or if that would go forward. You still have the Prince Mine and that has a life span of 10 to 12 years and the remediation is 6 to 7 years and I know there has been talk of a co-op program down there. I would like to speak on that.
I believe the Donkin Mine might be part of that and I had a concern about that because if the Donkin Mine is part of it and is fully owned privately by Mr. Farrell's company and employees put severance money into that and you have Donkin fully owned privately and you have Prince and you have remediation with a holding company at the top that employees would put severance into but have no control over the Donkin Mine, well in 10 to 12 years when the Prince Mine is gone and when remediation is gone, you have people who have put money into a business and they have one mine left that they have no control over. That would be a concern for me. I think that is something that would have to be checked out very carefully.
It is easy to say, well, what happens then? Well, another mine, but you need money and we know that probably government would have to be called upon to put some money into that too. So there are all different things that have to be looked at. Personally, it is not that I have anything, good luck to whoever gets it, but I am just looking from the aspect of the families or even investing money, just looking out for their best interest that it would be done properly.
MR. MUIR: Just continuing on very quickly with the future. In your presentation you talked about the Donald report saying, don't put any more young people, don't hire any young people for the mines and they did. I think you indicated in your report that that was one of your arguments that this was done by the federal government. Do you think that the federal
government, I realize you can't answer for the federal government, if they got into the Donkin Mine, is there a risk, are the people in your communities prepared to take that risk? If the Donkin Mine goes in five years or whatever it would be, all of these people that presumably are going to be displaced from Phalen and some from the Prince Mine, they are gone to pension and I don't think there are going to be too many staying past pension, I would assume that, then you are into the next generation, you are going to have to hire again.
MS. BUDDEN: Well, there are about 215. We will just say there is a 20 year service pension. A lot of those people have that 5 per cent contributory pension that they would take with them. My opinion is, even when they are all gone, I do believe that no matter what, when the economy is bad and jobs are hard to come by there will always be people who would be willing to take the risk, especially if has been ingrained in your blood. Personally, as a mother, I have a 20 year old son who I would not want to see go in a coal mine. I will be very honest about it. I have lived through the tragedy of the No. 26 explosion, I have lost somebody. But if he came to me and said, there are no jobs, Mom, and I have a chance to get hired down at Donkin Mine, I couldn't tell him not to do it. I would have to live with it just like I lived with my husband going every day of his life for 21 years.
MR. MUIR: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Archibald.
MR. GEORGE ARCHIBALD: Thank you very much for coming. I certainly want to thank you for keeping Devco in the news and keeping their solutions and the problem before Nova Scotians and before Canadians.
You know, Nova Scotians have all benefited from Devco. We met with Nova Scotia Power not long ago and they were indicating that by burning coal they saved the consumers a great deal of money. So, you are not out there alone. We are all involved in this up to our necks whether we like it or not. I think in dealing with Devco, the thing that is missing is fairness.
MS. BUDDEN: Yes, that's right.
MR. ARCHIBALD: When the government got into this coal mining business, whether they should be in it or shouldn't be in it, it doesn't make any difference because they are in it. If they decide now they want to get out of it, then they have to be fair to all of the miners and be fair to Nova Scotia. Governments can, when they decide they want to be fair, they can move mountains and if you don't believe it, come to Aldershot where they have the refugees that are having difficulties. You look at the setup they have for them to look after their food, the medical, the adjustment to a different society and a different culture, they are giving these people hope and compassion. I want to know whether the federal government is giving Devco workers any hope and where is the federal government's compassion?
To waltz into town and say, see you later fellas in a couple of years, it's been nice knowing you, that isn't good enough. Since you folks have been leading the charge and working with the Premier trying to get Ottawa to come around, I think it is going to work because it has to. Canadians are a fair bunch of people. Cape Bretoners can't expect any less than what we have anticipated in the past. When the federal government closed Summerside, the federal government had a program to see that the displaced workers had something to do and somewhere to go and there was money floating around. That has worked very well to the benefit of Summerside to the extent there are now more civilians working in Summerside than ever worked there before. Now, where is the federal government in this?
Natural gas is coming, but it is a long time between meals. We are looking at several years before Laurentian Basin opens up and there is a pipeline going through Cape Breton. While we are waiting for the pipeline, the displaced miners have got to do something.
The medical plan. I know the seriousness of a pre-existing condition when you are trying to get a new medical plan coverage. There has to be medical plans available at a reasonable cost to the families and to the miners themselves because I don't know how you can exist without one. With the medical plans, I mean read the letter from Dr. Gallivan. I wouldn't know Dr. Gallivan if he walked in here and bit me, but he is very concerned and he doesn't have to write letters like that, outlining the concerns of Cape Bretoners. I have talked to other medical people who are very concerned about some of the cancer problems that are happening in Cape Breton.
So, I really do appreciate you coming here today with your suggestions and I hope that just by being at this committee that it will make all politicians in Canada realize how important this is. It is not a Cape Breton issue; this is a Canadian issue because the federal government is involved in it. We have to make sure the federal government treats us just as fairly as we are entitled to.
[2:00 p.m.]
We need an infrastructure program in Cape Breton to help develop a new economy. It will come with natural gas when the port is operating supply ships. There will so much employment down there, you will wonder what happened yesterday. But we have to keep the program in the meantime.
The other thing that troubles me to some extent is that we have thousands and thousands of tons of coal, but is there anybody doing any research on modern methods of mining coal, liquification, gasification?
MS. BUDDEN: Yes, there is.
MR. ARCHIBALD: You see, the government used to have a research facility, but that was closed a couple of years ago in cost cutting. There are all kinds of areas that the government has to get involved to get us over this hump, to get us over the problem. One person in Cape Breton in a coal mine is just as important as a person in Calgary or Montreal or Toronto and they deserve the same care and the same respect, compassion and fairness right across the country. Truly, with the program that Mr. Goodale announced, it just hasn't been fair, just or anything else to the Cape Breton economy or to the Canadian economy.
I urge you to continue with your program. I know it is some considerable expense to you in both time and money. I admire you both for leading the charge and certainly this committee supports your efforts and we support the efforts of the Premier in trying to get something out of Ottawa to aid and assist. I really appreciate you coming here today. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacAskill.
HON. KENNETH MACASKILL: Ladies, I have to say, I admire your spunk and your determination to start with the Premier and going to the Prime Minister. You deserve a lot of credit. Indeed, I certainly wish you well in your endeavours.
I am not quite sure today if our focus is on all Devco workers regardless of their age or their years of service, whether we look at a better package for pension or are we looking at a better package for diversification or infrastructure or that nature? I am not quite sure what you are mainly focused on.
MS. BUDDEN: Our focus is keeping a secure income with the Devco families and keeping some money flowing through the Cape Breton economy. Now, it is government's choice whether they want to come through and maybe provide a bridge program to allow these men to work - they want to work - until they make their pensionable points, until such time they retire. Or if they don't want to do that, then provide a service pension and provide work for the younger ones to go through, through Prince remediation or whatnot.
Our first choice is work and in the future, of course, we were concerned about Cape Breton and certainly want to see the economy turned around and new things come in, but I think it's of utmost importance that these Devco workers be looked after. You have a large group of men here who are up in age and it just makes economic sense to keep dollars flowing through the economy and not to create that hole. To do that now and not have anything in place will be a total disaster.
So, that is what I say to government, do what is right and that will allow us the time. You have an economic development board here and another one in Cape Breton and with people working together, I feel that maybe within the next 10 years maybe we can start to see a change, but it is not going to happen overnight. It didn't happen in 31 years. It is going to
take time to build it. I say, keep some money there with the Devco workers. Look after these families.
MR. MACASKILL: Are you optimistic that a private operator will be successful operating the Prince Mine, and if they are, would it be the union miners that would be hired?
MS. BUDDEN: Well, of course, the unions would have successor rights to the mines and I would say they would probably be more profitable because government would wipe out the debts, pension liabilities or whatnot there. They would be starting with a clean slate. The coal is there.
MS. BROWN: The skilled labour is there.
MS. BUDDEN: Yes, what they would do, and I was doing some research on that. I believe Mr. Farrell, I think it is European methods or something they use now in the mines, they have switched to the American or the Australian or whatever methods, a different type of coal mining, more economical. They would work with probably a bare workforce and therefore reduce the cost of the coal.
MR. MACASKILL: We hear Steve Farrell talking about Donkin but we don't hear much about the Prince Mine and I am wondering if he has his sights on the Prince Mine as well as Donkin?
MS. BUDDEN: I have never heard his name mentioned in connection with the Prince Mine at all. I believe his interest, from what I can gather, is with Donkin because there is 1.5 billion tons of coal there. That is another thing, too, that in the future we will be looking at for privatization because we have had one Westray disaster. We are wives. I have personally gone through the No. 26 disaster and certainly we don't want another one to happen so I think that there are rules and regulations that have to be looked after these mines change, if they are ever privatized.
MR. MACASKILL: Has your group done any research relative to the natural gas, what effect it may have on the coal industry, if, in fact, the pipeline does go to Cape Breton, which I am sure it will, in a reasonable time-frame?
MS. BUDDEN: Personally, I have looked a little bit on the Internet to see what I could come up with. I don't know if I have anything included here but I think it has been done and the study has been done by the province and I will certainly be looking to see that. I think the gas is seven years, anyway, away.
MR. MACASKILL: Yes, seven years.
MS. BUDDEN: I think there will always be, my own opinion, a need for coal. It is just that it is going to be done in a different way.
MS. BROWN: We have been hearing rumours, too, just people have been calling and telling us, some business people, that they have been doing some research into other uses of coal, some by-products, and they have been researching throughout Canada, throughout the world, actually, on that. They are heavily into the United States doing research on that. When they have everything together, they said that they would make that available to us. I think that there are people out there who are trying to look at things to help the economy of Cape Breton.
MR. MACASKILL: My understanding is that Mr. Farrell is looking at offshore markets for coal so he is not totally dependent on Nova Scotia Power.
Can I turn to your Economy of Cape Breton Island . . . At a Glance and probably ask you, if I may, is that the whole of Cape Breton Island or are we referring here to just the industrial area?
MS. BUDDEN: No, that is the whole of Cape Breton Island.
MR. MACASKILL: Okay, thank you very much and again, I appreciate your work and offer you good luck.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there anyone else from the Liberal caucus? Mr. MacEwan.
MR. PAUL MACEWAN: Since this group was first formed and came to my attention, the first time I met you was at the district office, in Ron Cote's office and you asked me to support you and I said I would.
MS. BUDDEN: Yes, that is right.
MR. MACEWAN: And I have done everything I could to support them ever since. I hope you won't mind if I read here the first four paragraphs of a newspaper item that appears in today's issue of the New Waterford Community Press. It states:
"On Sunday, May 2, I attended the meeting of the United Families held at the Steelworkers Hall in Sydney, with a full house of some 300 in attendance.
I heard the report of Edna Budden and Beverly Brown on their week-long sojourn in Ottawa, on our behalf. It was extremely impressive.
These two women had seen, and spoken with, virtually everyone one could think of on a short list of 'who's who' at Ottawa. They had met with the Prime Minister. They had met with the Minister of Natural Resources, and with the Government Leader in the Senate, Al Graham, who represents this area now at the federal cabinet table. They had met with many other ministers, Members of Parliament, senior advisors, and other decision-makers. In all, they had met with I would say at least forty different individuals and groups, to make their presentation and tell our story.
They received a number of standing ovations from the audience, and deserved every one of them. I encourage their efforts to continue. They are doing what ought to be done. If we are able to obtain better terms and some measure of justice, it will be thanks to efforts like theirs in a very major way.".
Now one thing I wanted to ask you is, could you outline who you saw in Ottawa? Give us the thumbnail sketch. You spent a week up in Ottawa, they knocked on every door you could think of. Let's hear the list.
MS. BROWN: I will tell you in one second. Wait now, I will give you the list. I have my book here.
MR. MACEWAN: This is what ought to be done on our behalf up in Ottawa, I might add, what they are doing. (Interruptions)
MS. BUDDEN: I am sure I have it here, Bev.
MR. MACEWAN: Well, they saw everybody anyway.
MS. BUDDEN: Believe me, we worked very hard. It was like waking up at 5:00 a.m., eh Bev?
MS. BROWN: Yes.
MS. BUDDEN: First appointments at 8:00 a.m.
MS. BROWN: We were doing radio interviews at 6:00 a.m. and I wouldn't answer the phone because Edna is better on the radio. I don't like this stuff where they get you right quick when you hopped out of bed. So I would be hollering Edna - she would be in the shower - come on, Edna.
MS. BUDDEN: I will briefly tell you. I don't know if I will get every name. We had the list but Bev left it home. (Laughter) We started off with MP Liberal Lynn Myers and then from there we met with George Baker, he is a Liberal MP from Newfoundland, one of the
senior members of the Atlantic caucus. We met with him. We met with Ralph Goodale and Senator Al Graham for an hour and 45 minutes.
MS. BROWN: Their advisors were there too.
MS. BUDDEN: Yes, there were some political advisors there also. Let's see, we met with Randy White and the Reform caucus, Dale Johnston, Dave Chatters, John Duncan and Randy White, they are all critics to Natural Resources and whatnot. We met with the political advisors to Finance Minister Paul Martin, HRDC, the Prime Minister's Office, Senator Al Graham's office. There were about what, half a dozen, I guess. We did a presentation with them. Then we went on to meet with Mr. Joe Clarke and Mr. Gerald Keddy, Senator Lowell Murray and some other members of the PC caucus. We did a press conference after that. We met with Tom Wappel, who is another Liberal MP. We met with the Bloc Québécois Party, Pierre DeSavoyoe and Jocelyne Bujold Girard, Paul Crete, they are all critics for Natural Resources. Oh yes, by the way, we were invited back to speak on Devco. There is a committee for older workers, PATA Committee, people who are older being forced out of work with no retirement and they have invited us back to speak on the Devco issue.
We met with Michelle Dockrill, Peter Mancini and some other members of the NDP caucus; Pat O'Brien, actually, he is a twin. They have a twinning program for Cape Breton and that was something that I learned and didn't know about before. Anyway, we met with Marlene Catsterall, she is another Liberal MP. Minister Claudette Bradshaw, Minister of Labour, very warm, from New Brunswick, very receptive, wasn't she, Bev?
MS. BROWN: Yes.
MS. BUDDEN: Mr. Byron Wilfert, Susan Whelan. Let's see, who else did we meet with? Minister Boudria, he is the House Leader.
MR. MACEWAN: Don Boudria and one of his political advisors. We met him briefly when we met with the Prime Minister but we met with somebody from his office. Who else?
MS. BUDDEN: Mr. Dave Dingwall. We met with him. I had a list longer than that.
MS. BROWN: All the senators.
MS. BUDDEN: Yes, I had the list of the Atlantic caucus, senators . . .
MS. BROWN: It was a full caucus.
MS. BUDDEN: Like a full caucus, but I don't have all their names listed. Bev has it at home. So, anyway, I guess we did, all in all, we probably met about 40 people or individuals and we were kept busy from one end of the day to the other.
MS. BROWN: We met with CUPW and . . .
MS. BUDDEN: Oh yes, we met with some solidarity groups and whatnot up there too.
MR. MACEWAN: Well, that was one question. I don't know if there is time for another one. That gives you some idea of what they have done. It has been an exhaustive effort. They have done everything that could possibly be done. Now you are going back there again soon. Do you want to outline that perhaps?
MS. BUDDEN: Well, we are expecting news back from the Bloc Québécois Party before June to go up but I think regardless if we get that news or not, we will be going back sometime around the first week of June just to go back and meet with these people and go everything again and just assure them that we are going to stand strong and that we are looking for a better package and see what comes forth from the federal government.
We have been working closely with Premier MacLellan and he assures me that he is in constant contact with Ottawa and the Prime Minister's Office. I have confidence in that, that they are going to relook at this and come out with a package that is going to look after families.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. [Charles] MacDonald.
MR. CHARLES MACDONALD: I just want to go back to a point. In the Dominion-New Waterford-Glace Bay area, the population of that side of the Island, outside the Sydneys, what would your population be on that side, roughly?
MS. BUDDEN: Glace Bay is 20,000-some.
MR. MACEWAN: Total population?
MS. BUDDEN: Yes. What would you say?
MR. MACEWAN: 20,000.
MS. BUDDEN: About 20,000, yes.
MR. CHARLES MACDONALD: In Glace Bay alone?
MS. BUDDEN: That's just Glace Bay.
MR. CHARLES MACDONALD: Yes.
MS. BROWN: About 40,000, If you include Reserve, Dominion, those little areas around there.
MR. CHARLES MACDONALD: That population is basically all dependent upon coal mining?
MS. BUDDEN: Yes.
MR. CHARLES MACDONALD: Industry-wise, on that side of the Island, there is some fishing, I suppose?
MS. BROWN: Not a lot.
MR. CHARLES MACDONALD: Not a great deal of it.
MS. BUDDEN: We have lost a lot of our fisheries.
MR. CHARLES MACDONALD: So we have 40,000 in population, depending on the mining sector.
MS. BROWN: I think that when you go to New Waterford, Glace Bay and Sydney Mines, that is where you are going to find the heavily populated areas that are depending on coal. When you get into Sydney, it is a little bit more business and, probably, Sysco. I would have to say that anything else outside that, I would say, is basically dependent on coal.
MR. CHARLES MACDONALD: That whole community is going to collapse, basically, is what we are looking at here?
MS. BROWN: Yes, what we are looking at is a total collapse of the community if something is not done. One of the things that I had said is that our community is just going to basically fade away. I really believe that if we do not get something done with the medicals, that people will die over it because there is no way, with no medical, that people will be able to afford medication and stuff.
Again, we are very concerned that we are going to lose our population through one way or another.
MR. CHARLES MACDONALD: When we are talking pension, we are just trying to take care of the people until they retire, while they are alive. It seems to me we have to replace a great deal in the workforce.
MS. BROWN: Even with the pensions you are looking at, basically, a big drop in your salary.
MR. MACEWAN: A tremendous cost.
MS. BROWN: A tremendous cost.
MS. BUDDEN: We are still going to suffer an impact.
MS. BROWN: I think that we are going to . . .
MR. MACEWAN: . . . 50 per cent of wages taken away.
MS. BROWN: I think we are going to still suffer dramatically, even with that. I think what that will do is that that would allow the people to at least have enough to eat, to get along.
MS. BUDDEN: To keep a roof over your head.
MS. BROWN: To keep a roof over your head.
MS. BUDDEN: We will probably all have to go to banks and renegotiate, and everything else, even with that pension, really.
MS. BROWN: We look for a 20 year service because there is such a good discrepancy there with this 75 point system. We actually have people who come in late in years, work 15 years and have gone out with a full pension, but someone that had started in the coal mines - and there is a whole lot of them that started in the coal mines at 17, 18, 19 years old - who have worked 30 years and are not getting a pension. I mean, we have some serious nervous conditions because of this.
I mean, you are working along someone who is after 15 years going out with a pension, you have got 30 years underground and you are not getting one. That has caused a lot of upsets and a lot of friction among the workers because of that.
MR. CHARLES MACDONALD: Beyond that, I want to compliment you with what you have done. I think it is fantastic and I have total sympathy for the people of Glace Bay, New Waterford and Dominion and that area.
Now I am going to forget what I wanted to say here. Anyway, I will let you carry on. You go ahead.
MS. BUDDEN: You might think of it in a minute. Just a little something. Actually I was at a committee meeting. It was at the United Church and a moderator was in. I was asked to speak on a panel and I went and at the meeting there was a minister who sat beside me. He did something that had such an impact on me because it is exactly what I have been saying all
along, but it shows a visual picture of exactly what we are facing in Cape Breton. So, I went home and I got the Cape Breton Tartan material and I did the very same thing. I am just going to circulate it around because it is quite interesting. We all know that we have the green for the hills, the gold for the sun, the black for the coal, and the grey for the seals. You can just let it go around the table. Just feel how beautiful it is, the strength and everything that is in it. I will show you in a minute what is going to happen. It is kind of just a visual picture of what we are facing in Cape Breton. I just looked at it and said, that is exactly what we have been saying.
MS. BROWN: I think one of the big things before we went to Ottawa was we went to mine sites and we decided that we would take an album because I think a picture paints a thousand words. Of course, when I watched the men come up from the mine, there were five of us. We kind of sneaked up in a little area where we probably weren't allowed and we wanted to see the coal cars coming right from underground up. When I saw them coming up, the women were crying because they were getting out of this thing and we know they had been doing this for 20 to 30 years, they were soaked, they were chock full of coal dust, and they were climbing out of this cabby that took them down into the mine, an hour to get down, an hour to get up. I just couldn't imagine Crown Corporation employees doing that for 20 to 30 years and then the government not to take care of them.
It was so overwhelming that I said to Edna, if I had strength and power before within me to do this, I have it one hundred-fold now. Looking at these men and what they have endured, this is wrong. We have to get justice done here. I think that is what happened. We took the pictures, five of us, and they were beautiful. They were close-ups, they had coal dust, you could see the water on their clothes. I think that when we took it to Ottawa when we showed it, we actually had people who looked at it and actually broke down because I said, if you take a man, this is a man, 28 years, one of the people knew them, he is short two years from a pension, he was full of coal dust and I said, look, he is soaked to the bone. He came up, he has been down there for seven to eight hours, he has come up out of this coal mine and imagine if it was your father and someone did that to him. He is a Crown Corporation employee just like you are. Imagine if he was down there for 30 years and all of a sudden the government said, okay, now we don't need you anymore.
That is one thing, but to send you off and not take care of you, not to give you what you are owed through for working for the government. It was just hard to deal with it. I think that when we did that, we spent a whole day talking to the miners at the site and giving them the information and I think that that just makes us all the more powerful because it's a human factor. I think that is what we portrayed in Ottawa.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe you had one more question, Mr. MacAskill.
MS. BUDDEN: I will finish this little demonstration off first. I took that piece of tartan and what I did was remove the threads for the coal. I just want to go around and show you just what happened. It's just a little visual, but it tells what we are going to go through. Feel how thin and how frail and the holes.
MR. MACASKILL: If I may, just one more question relative to Phalen. Is there any feeling of when Phalen will be back in operation? My understanding is that the clean-up is going very well and that it appears to be on target. Do you have any sense that Phalen will be up and running?
MS. BUDDEN: Well, Phalen Mine right now I have been told the clean-up is coming along well. Whether they will start it up again or not, that is still a question.
MR. MACASKILL: There is no indication from the federal government that it will not?
MS. BUDDEN: There is no indication. Where that fall came in at was at the very beginning of the high stress roof zone. So, who knows. I guess we will just have to wait and see what they are going to do. I know they are not working in very good conditions. There is a lot of water down there, I have been told.
MR. MACEWAN: Up to their necks. Didn't you tell me . . .
MS. BUDDEN: Yes, up to their necks. In some spots they are up to here in water. They were crawling on their belly. When that fall first came in, I think there were 82 jacks squared. What that means is out of 162 that they just can't move up or down. They are actually crawling on their belly to try and get it cleaned up. Terrible, terrible state, but apparently they have been making headway. Now whether they will go ahead and operate that wall, I don't know.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We have come to the end of that allocation of time. What we are going to do is take another nine minutes per caucus. That will leave us with seven or eight minutes left to deal with the next meeting agenda.
I would like to begin with a few questions for the NDP caucus, if I might. I remember, and I guess everyone remembers, the vivid pictures following the Westray disaster and the draegermen. What was the participation from the Devco miners at Westray, do you know?
MS. BUDDEN: Yes, our draegermen went down to try and see if they could rescue some of those Westray miners. I don't think they will ever be forgotten by the wives of the Westray coal miners. I have been in contact with a couple of them. Our coal miners and our draegermen have risked their lives many times to try and rescue others through fires, the explosion, even to rescue government equipment. At No. 26, I remember my husband went
down. There was a fire in No. 26. I remember at one point of the fire, you had to run to get away. So, they are certainly very courageous these men and I just feel they deserve a whole lot better than what they are being dished out right now.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I do remember, at that time, there was much talk about the debt of gratitude that was owed to the draegermen. It seems to me that when we are looking at questions of adjustment packages, and certainly Mr. Archibald is right when he says that in many instances these adjustment packages have been geared to try and smooth the transition from the industry and to assist families. Certainly The Atlantic Groundfish Strategy is one that comes to mind immediately. I am kind of assuming that you, when you are addressing various people that you have talked to, make this point to them time and again.
MS. BROWN: Yes, we do.
MS. BUDDEN: I think we made an impact. What happened when that package came down, it was formulated in Glace Bay or with Devco. It was apparently to live by the collective agreement. What I say to that is when that agreement was made, there was work and now we are into a closure which is a different set of circumstances. I said that to Mr. Goodale and everybody else in Ottawa. We have to look at this in a different way and provide for families. I do believe that we have made some inroads up there. We put a different face on this. I just hope and pray that we did enough, that they will come forth with the right package that is going to provide security for these families.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I just want to touch briefly on a couple of things that you brought up so that I am clear on it. Have you, in fact, asked for an audit of the pension fund in order to determine whether they are in surplus or deficit?
MS. BROWN: No.
MS. BUDDEN: That is a union matter. I believe the unions are checking into that, I have been told. So, no, we haven't done that yet.
MR. CHAIRMAN: There is talk about retraining. Are there practical alternatives for retraining?
MS. BUDDEN: Well, what they came out with was $8,000 for retraining. I think what has to be considered there, I don't want to portray them all, there are some good, well-educated people within Devco, but there is a big majority of men who started very young, maybe, and they might have Grade 9, Grade 10; $8,000 certainly would not do the job to retrain them. I know my son applied for one course. It was $8,100 for a basic welding course.
[2:30 p.m.]
Then, when they are retrained, where are the jobs? There has to be something put in place for them. There is nothing there now. We have educated people that are walking the streets of Cape Breton. I have a sister-in-law who has a science degree and she is an X-ray technician. She was fortunate enough to get a minimum wage job, whatever, at the casino. I mean, she owes a big student loan.
You have to look at reality here and realize that you just cannot throw these men out in the street with no future.
MR. CHAIRMAN: There were a couple of recommendations in your submission that I don't think you touched on which was the whole question of the establishment of an environmental institute, and the moving of the Environment offices to Cape Breton. Whose role do you see that - do you see this as being a federal government initiative? Do you see it as something that the provincial government would participate in?
MS. BUDDEN: That is an idea or concept put forth. That is why we have economic development committees to go to, to put ideas forth, to see what can be done. If it is worthwhile, then you check into it and see if it can come about.
It was put forth in Ottawa and today I am, again, presenting it here for consideration and see what can come of it. It is an idea. It is worth looking at.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Corbett, do you have questions? There is about two minutes left.
MR. CORBETT: Okay. A quick one. Probably one of our first witnesses, Mr. Brown, from ECBC, said the hit on the Cape Breton economy, with the closing of Devco would be worse than the great Depression.
MS. BUDDEN: Yes.
MR. CORBETT: With that in mind, I have read some of your quotes from the Donald Report. The glaring things about the Donald Report, it is obvious that they did not see a future at that time in mining, yet the federal government went ahead and opened these mines.
I guess, in your meetings last month with the federal government, did they happen to try to give you the same understanding for the economic problems in Cape Breton, that they felt that, indeed, they were more responsible than what they are doing right now?
I think there is $68 million, by the way of economic development. Is there anything that you heard from the federal government to seem to think that they were willing to move forward with any more money than the $68 million?
MS. BUDDEN: Well, what Mr. Goodale was putting on the table when he was talking about Devco, he was putting it on that there was $550 million for Devco and related issues. Included in that was HRDC money, ACOA money, economic development and subsidy money. We had that clarified at the Atlantic caucus meeting, that that was not all related to Devco. There was only $111 million on the table for Devco.
As far as economic development, there is $68 million over a four year period - $17 million a year. Now, I certainly do not think that that is going to do the job or replace the $300 million annually that is going to come out of the economy and that was made quite clear.
So far, that is all they have come forward with but we will just see what comes in the next package for the Devco workers. I think there was $140 million for HRDC and I believe $80 million for ACOA.
I didn't see a problem if there was $550 million for Devco, as it is being portrayed to be. I didn't really see a problem at all with $305 million for a service pension. There is still lots of money left over for everything else, and economic development.
I don't know, I think it is a matter - he said there was no more money for pensions but it is a matter of, I guess, looking at how the money is allotted.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will move now to the Progressive Conservative caucus, Mr. Muir or Mr. Archibald.
MR. MUIR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Something that my colleague, Mr. Archibald, said, talking about fairness. I tend to think that, probably, your argument has been very well put and that the federal government will respond in some way. Hopefully, it will be enough to carry this over the hump.
One of the things that has been raised here by a couple of other witnesses has to be the role of the union in the future of coal in Cape Breton. One of the things that appears is that if the Phalen closes and the Prince remains that there will be some of the people who are employed now at Phalen would be transferred to the Prince Mine with some outgoing. Mr. Shannon and his colleague said, when they were here, in terms of the future that there would have to be some - I am not entirely sure of what word he used - but some of the traditional practices, for example, you indicated earlier today there was about 25 per cent of a shift's time was in transport, I think, almost an hour coming and going. Among the miners is there talk of saying, what do we need to do to make this Prince thing really work to establish that
future for we who are fortunate enough to be employed there? Is that something you are hearing? Is that a subject of discussion?
MS. BUDDEN: Well, I think as far as Prince goes, I know there was talk of longer shifts, 10 hour shifts and whatnot, that didn't come through. In looking through some committee reports from Westray, too, I think that was one of the reasons why we had the Westray disaster, it was long shifts that the miners worked. I guess your alertness and what not. I think there has to be a change in attitudes, if you want my personal opinion on this from looking at this from a broad perspective and trying to remain neutral and everything, I think there has to be a change in attitudes in unions and government and Devco, right up the line, they have to come together. Until that's done, I think we won't make any headway.
We met with Mr. White and there were some things that he stated that I wasn't at all happy with. His attitude was, oh, they will help them fill out resumes, there was all kinds of work in Cape Breton. I said, where's the work, Mr. White? So I think it is not just unions, but I think there has to be a change of attitude and somebody has to be there to make sure that it happens and not have somebody come out the door and say, this happened or that happened and talks broke down. It has to be done and it has to be done for the families. That's the bottom line.
MR. MUIR: So if the solution is to come then there has to be new thinking all the way around, I think that's what you are saying.
MS. BUDDEN: Certainly, that's my opinion on it.
MR. MUIR: Part of the difficulty right now is that maybe we haven't kicked into that mode.
MS. BUDDEN: No, but I am looking at it because we know from dealing with it, don't we, Bev. We have to, I would say lay the cards on the table and if you are going to say something, say it honestly and put it forth. That's how we see it, that there has to be a change in attitude right throughout.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Anything further?
MR. MUIR: No, that's fine thanks.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Archibald.
MR. ARCHIBALD: Just so we are clear. How much additional money does your group think would solve the problem?
MS. BUDDEN: I can answer that. It depends upon what you talking about. We will just say government comes through with a service pension of 20 years. It would cost $305 million, $10 million for medical plan benefits. Right now there is $111 million on the table. So if you subtract that, what you would be looking at is about $204 million more. That's given out in subsidies a lot of times.
The ideal thing would be to allow them the time to work. We would like to have a pay and through the remediation and whatnot, I would think that would be the best thing. But if you have no choice . . .
MR. ARCHIBALD: Well, part of the $204 million could be the remediation, because they are going to have to spend it anyway.
MS. BUDDEN: That's right.
MR. ARCHIBALD: So you see, it really isn't a $204 million cost to the government. There is an awful lot of the $204 million is going to be spent whether the miners do the remedial work or whether somebody else gets the remedial work. Certainly, every day the miners do remedial work, they are making a contribution towards their medical plan and to their pension plan.
MS. BROWN: Again, like I said, Prince has a life span of 10 to 12 years. If we waited 30 years to start to close down the coal industry, I mean couldn't we wait three or four or five more years and call it a slower phase-out and then bridge people in. There are ways that you can do it, definitely in a more humane way. Prince Mine is a safe mine, basically, the safety level there is not like Phalen. I think that that is another thing that we can use too. I mean the government can just slow down the process a little bit and take more people into consideration and a little bit more time for the phase-out rather than just a total shutdown by the year 2000.
MR. ARCHIBALD: Well, I don't know, I don't have any further questions. I just want you to know how much we appreciate you being here and keeping the issue before us and, hopefully, the federal government is listening.
MS. BROWN: I hope so, too.
MR. CHAIRMAN: From the Liberal caucus.
MR. MUIR: If Mr. Balser returns, if we have a couple of minutes left I hope he could grandfather.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, we will see what is left.
Mr. MacAskill.
MR. MACASKILL: Just in closing my final remarks. We know the problems on Cape Breton Island but I guess those of us who live on the other side of the Island, we just don't want to focus on the problems on Cape Breton. I think that Cape Breton has great potential and I am sure you realize that. We have bright people in the technology sector. We have a very lively tourism industry and very innovative people in that industry. So I don't think all this gloom and doom in Cape Breton while we appreciate the mining, the way mining is suffering, indeed, we must focus on that and we must try to do better for this sector but I would hate to see the meeting close that all is bad on Cape Breton Island.
MS. BROWN: Yes, I think Cape Breton Island definitely has a future but it is just that we are not going to get it tomorrow. It is something that we have to all work together at. In the meantime, allow these families first to be looked after so that if the money is kept in and the families are looked after, then kind of like a phase-out of the coal industry and the families are looked after, definitely bring in economic development. But we know that because of the situation where we have been coal mining for 30 years and we have got very little taken into Cape Breton that actually stayed that we would like to have the time rather than just have a whole lot - you know, we're looking at 1,200 families/miners, 700 direct workers are automatically gone when Devco shuts down on a strike or anything or when they are shut down, there are 700 jobs automatically affected and with the spin-offs, we are looking at 3,700 jobs when Devco goes down, basically, from the economy. So what we are saying is if we can get a large majority of them with some type of money to keep money circulating, through a pension or something like that, then we would have time to bring in economic development. But if you just take 3,700 jobs out of the community and try to put them back, it is not going to happen that fast and it will just totally destroy us.
We are saying yes, we believe Cape Breton is going to have a future, we want to be there for that. We want something for our children. I think it has a lot of potential but it is something that we are going to have to work on and it is going to take a while to get and it is going to take time. With the mining situation, we don't have time, so we want the miners to be treated in a fair, just manner, to have a secure income. Our next step, Edna and I will be there, is for the economic development of Cape Breton. We want Cape Breton to grow.
MS. BUDDEN: Just a couple of comments there. I think Cape Breton Island is the most beautiful place in the world. I love it. I love Cape Breton and I love the people. That is one of the reasons why we are fighting so hard. Tourism, I think, yes, is a big, big industry and I think it is will probably get much bigger but it is seasonal. We need to work on those things, we need to promote it and we need to build Cape Breton to be a better place, better economically, I don't think you could find a better place to bring up your children or whatever. I think we have to look after and keep some money flowing there now and look to the future.
MR. MACASKILL: Yes, I agree with you. It is not going to come overnight.
MS. BUDDEN: No, it won't.
MR. MACASKILL: The area I represent, which is 75 per cent coastline, has been hit hard by the downturn in the groundfish fishery. We have not seen any great economic boom but we are still working at it and we are still hopeful.
MS. BUDDEN: Yes.
MR. MACASKILL: My hope is that you will achieve what you set out to do and be very successful in it.
MS. BUDDEN: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, if there is nothing more, then on behalf of the committee, I would like to thank you very much for taking the time to come and see us and to make your presentation. Certainly, all of the information you have provided was very useful to the committee.
We still have these hearings going on, likely, for a few weeks yet. It is hoped at the end that we will be in a position to issue some recommendations to help the position of the provincial government. Thank you very much.
MS. BUDDEN: Thank you very much.
MS. BROWN: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: If I could ask the committee members now to turn to the question of the future agenda of this committee, I would point out that the next meeting date is now set for June 1st. My understanding is that at that time, we are scheduled to hear Mr. Rankin MacSween who is confirmed from New Dawn Enterprises.
MR. ARCHIBALD: When is that?
MR. CHAIRMAN: On June 1st.
MS. MORA STEVENS: If the House is in, it will be in the morning.
MR. CHAIRMAN: If the House is in, it would be a morning meeting.
MR. ARCHIBALD: Well, the House, I suspect, would be in because it is not going to close in 12 days. (Interruption) Yes, they are hot tickets. The House will be opening at noon time, at 12:00 p.m.
I know from my point of view and my caucus colleagues, we have to be away from here, not later than 10:30 a.m. so we can get ready for the House at 12:00 p.m. I suspect you do, too. It is either 8:30 a.m. or put it off until the House closes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: 8:00 a.m. good enough? We do that with Public Accounts.
MR. MACASKILL: Well, we will try it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Also, Dr. Greg MacLeod is scheduled tentatively from the Tompkins Institute. I understand that Gordon MacDonald from the Guysborough County Regional Development Authority has also asked to be placed on the agenda at that time, as he could not appear today.
Following the June 1st meeting, you will have gotten attached to your agenda today, also, the request that has come forward from Father Bob Neville, to be added to the witness list. I think we raised last time, as well, the question of the various union leaders who also have requested, Mr. Drake and Mr. Angus MacEachern.
I was going to suggest that if those witnesses could be scheduled in at a further date after June 1st, if that were acceptable to the committee. I am not sure that after that, that there continues to be additional witnesses. We may want to discuss at that time the question of the formulation of some kind of a report and recommendation.
Would that be acceptable to the committee to try and schedule those witnesses for some time after June 1st?
Is it agreed?
MR. ARCHIBALD: Yes, well, we will meet on June 1st to talk about it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, if you wait until June 1st to talk about it, then it is a further delay in trying to organize and bring those people forward. As Ms. Budden has pointed out, Parliament is going to be closing on June 11th. We should, (Interruptions) hopefully, be in a position to wrap up our hearings prior to that so that we can deliver something that is, at least, timed around the same time as we know whether or not, in fact, there is going to be anything coming further from the federal government.
Is that okay?
Then we will proceed with that. Thank you very much.
[The committee adjourned at 2:50 p.m.]
