HANSARD 01-19

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS Speaker: Honourable Murray Scott Published by Order of the Legislature by Hansard Reporting Services and printed by the Queen's Printer. Available on INTERNET at http://www.gov.ns.ca/legi/hansard/ Annual subscriptions available from the Office of the Speaker. Second Session THURSDAY, APRIL 19, 2001

TABLE OF CONTENTS				PAGE
TABLING REPORTS, REGULATIONS AND OTHER PAPERS:
	Anl. Rept. of the Nova Scotia Council on Higher Education,
		Hon. J. Purves		1273
GOVERNMENT NOTICES OF MOTION:
	Res. 528, Saint Mary's Univ. - Donahoe, Terry: Honorary Degree Conferral -
		Congrats., Hon. J. Purves		1274
			Vote - Affirmative	1274
INTRODUCTION OF BILLS:
	No. 35, Restoration of the Legal and Environmental Rights of the
		People of Sydney Act, Mr. G. Steele		1275
	No. 36, Bras d'Or Lakes Conservation Act, Mr. K. MacAskill			1275
NOTICES OF MOTION:
	Res. 529, Morgan, Gordon - Prov. Volunteer Awards: Recognition -
		Congrats., Mr. J. Holm		1275
			Vote - Affirmative	1276
	Res. 530, Bras d'Or Stewardship Soc. - Preservation: Efforts - Congrats.,
		Mr. K. MacAskill		1276
			Vote - Affirmative	1276
	Res. 531, Cole Hbr.-East. Passage - MLA: Comments -
		Apologize, Mr. B. Barnet		1276
	Res. 532, Deveaux, Marshall - C.B. Sport Hall of Fame: Induction -
		Congrats., Mr. F. Corbett		1277
			Vote - Affirmative	1278
	Res. 533, Transport. & Pub. Wks. - Bayers Lake Bus. Pk.: Traffic -
		HRM Action Co-operate, Mr. R. MacKinnon		1278
	Res. 534, Sports - Basketball (Girls): Truro Tigers/Bible Hill Knights -
		Commitment Recognize, Hon. J. Muir		1279
			Vote - Affirmative	1279
	Res. 535, MacKay-Lyons, Brian - American Institute of Architects:
		College of Fellows - Inclusion Congrats., Mr. H. Epstein		1279
			Vote - Affirmative	1280
	Res. 536, Miles, Johnny - Boston Marathon Victory: Anniv. (75th) -
		Congrats., Mr. B. Boudreau		1280
			Vote - Affirmative	1281
	Res. 537, Fraser, Scott - Stock Car Racing: Best Wishes - Convey,
		Mr. B. Taylor		1281
			Vote - Affirmative	1282
	Res. 538, Nat. Res. - Land Control: Legislation - Introduce,
		Mr. W. Estabrooks		1282
	Res. 539, Kingsport Wharf - Reclamation Proj.: Participants - Congrats.,
		Mr. M. Parent		1282
			Vote - Affirmative	1283
	Res. 540, Community Links - Rural Volunteers Proj.: Participants -
		Congrats., Mr. D. Dexter		1283
			Vote - Affirmative	1284
	Res. 541, Lunenburg West MLA - Fmr. Fin. Min.: Track Record -
		Remember, Mr. F. Chipman		1284
	Res. 542, Desjardins, Michelle/George, Shawn - UCCB:
		Athletes of the Year - Congrats., Mr. F. Corbett		1285
			Vote - Affirmative	1285
	Res. 543, Fougere, Rose Marie - Richmond Co.: Volunteer of the Year -
		Congrats., Mr. M. Samson		1285
			Vote - Affirmative	1286
	Res. 544, Cameron, June - Gov't. (N.S.): Volunteer of the Year (2001) -
		Congrats., Mr. J. DeWolfe		1286
			Vote - Affirmative	1287
	Res. 545, Transport. & Pub. Wks. - Hatchet Lake: Paving -
		Residents Inform, Mr. W. Estabrooks		1287
	Res. 546, Keddy, Charles, Doris, Treasure, Phillip & Amber:
		Farm Family of the Year - Congrats., Mr. M. Parent		1287
			Vote - Affirmative	1288
	Res. 547, Campbell, Gordon/B.C. Liberal Party - Election: Best Wishes -
		Convey, (by Mr. M. Samson), Mr. P. MacEwan		1288
	Res. 548, Health - CBRM: Smoke-Free Status - Applaud, Mr. T. Olive			1289
		Vote - Affirmative		1290
	Res. 549, Volunteers: Congrats./Appreciation - Extend, Dr. J. Smith			1290
		Vote - Affirmative		1290
	Res. 550, Can.-N.S. Offshore Accord (1986) - N.S. Liberals/
		Hon. P. Martin: Contact - Lack Explain, Mr. C. Clarke		1290
ORAL QUESTIONS PUT BY MEMBERS:
	No. 192, Health - Cochlear Implants: Referrals - Alternative Plans,
		Mr. D. Dexter		1291
	No. 193, Health - Family Caregivers: Tax Incentives -
		Commitment Honour, Mr. D. Downe		1292
	No. 194, Environ. & Lbr. - OH&S: Offshore - Status, Mr. F. Corbett			1294
	No. 195, Commun. Serv. - Secure Treatment Facility: Truro - Details,
		Mr. D. Wilson		1295
	No. 196, Health - Cigarette Tax: Smoking Rates - Address, Mr. D. Dexter			1296
	No. 197, Nat. Res. - Hunting Licences: Fee Increases - Justification,
		Mr. K. MacAskill		1297
	No. 198, Commun. Serv. - Kendrick Report: Draft - Objections Explain,
		Mr. J. Pye		1298
	No. 199, Educ. - Hfx. Reg. Sch. Bd.: Closures - Min. Involvement,
		Mr. M. Samson		1299
	No. 200, Agric. & Fish. - ADI: User Fees - Confirmation,
		Mr. J. MacDonell		1301
	No. 201, Environ. & Lbr. - Boiler Rooms: Yarmouth Reg. Hosp./
		Valley Reg. Hosp. - Orders Confirm, Mr. R. MacKinnon		1302
	No. 202, Econ. Dev. - Sysco Port Facilities: Negotiations (CBRM) -
		Confirm, Mr. F. Corbett		1303
	No. 203, Serv. N.S. & Mun. Rel. - Equalization: UNSM - Proposal,
		Mr. B. Boudreau		1304
	No. 204, Transport. & Pub. Wks. - VIA Rail Derailment (Stewiacke):
		Safety Measures - Details, Mr. W. Estabrooks		1305
	No. 205, Health - Tobacco Control Strategy: Report Tabling -
		Delay Explain, Dr. J. Smith		1306
	No. 206, Agric. & Fish. - Prod. Tech. Branch: ADI Replacement -
		Cost-Effectiveness, Mr. J. MacDonell		1308
	No. 207, Nat. Res. - Energy Strategy: Consultations - Adequacy,
		Mr. Manning MacDonald		1309
	No. 208, Health - Hep. C: Fed. Funding - Specifics, Mr. D. Dexter			1310
GOVERNMENT NOTICES OF MOTION:
	Res. 554, Holocaust Memorial Day: Significance - Recognize,
		The Premier		1312
			Vote - Affirmative	1313
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS:
	GOVERNMENT MOTIONS:
		ON MOTION FOR SUPPLY:
			Mr. G. Steele	1313
			Mr. R. MacKinnon	1316
			Mr. B. Barnet	1320
			Mr. T. Olive	1325
HOUSE RESOLVED INTO CWH ON SUPPLY AT 2:24 P.M.				1326
HOUSE RECONVENED AT 6:00 P.M.				1326
ADJOURNMENT:
	MOTION UNDER RULE 5(5):
		Agric. - Food: Taxes - Min. Cease:
			Mr. D. Downe	1327
			Mr. J. MacDonell	1330
			Mr. J. Chataway	1332
			Hon. E. Fage	1332
HOUSE RESOLVED INTO CWH ON SUPPLY AT 6:30 P.M.				1335
HOUSE RECONVENED AT 6:54 P.M.				1335
PUBLIC BILLS FOR SECOND READING:
	No. 30, Financial Measures (2001) Act			1335
		Ms. Maureen MacDonald		1335
		Mr. Manning MacDonald		1343
			Adjourned debate	1350
ADJOURNMENT, House rose to meet again on Fri., Apr. 20th at 9:00 a.m.				1350
NOTICES OF MOTION UNDER RULE 32(3):
	Res. 551, Yar. Co. Museum - Staff/Volunteers: Efforts - Congrats.,
		Mr. R. Hurlburt		1351
	Res. 552, Fossils of Fundy - Web Site: Participants - Applaud,
		The Speaker		1351
	Res. 553, Brown, Art - Shipping News: Acting Debut - Congrats.,
		The Speaker		1352

[Page 1273] HALIFAX, THURSDAY, APRIL 19, 2001 Fifty-eighth General Assembly Second Session 12:00 P.M. SPEAKER Hon. Murray Scott DEPUTY SPEAKERS Mr. Brooke Taylor, Mr. Kevin Deveaux, Mr. David Wilson MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Before we begin the daily routine, the subject for this evening's late debate was submitted by the honourable member for Halifax Fairview:

Therefore be it resolved that the Minister of Agriculture start representing the farm community by taking the lead in ending the Hamm Government's many new taxes on food.

This will be debated this evening at 6:00 p.m.

We will begin the daily routine.

PRESENTING AND READING PETITIONS

PRESENTING REPORTS OF COMMITTEES

TABLING REPORTS, REGULATIONS AND OTHER PAPERS

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education.

HON. JANE PURVES: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the Annual Report of the Nova Scotia Council on Higher Education.

1273

[Page 1274]

MR. SPEAKER: The report is tabled.

STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS

GOVERNMENT NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education.

RESOLUTION NO. 528

HON. JANE PURVES: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas Saint Mary's University has decided to confer an honorary degree on Terry Donahoe during convocation ceremonies May 15th; and

Whereas Mr. Donahoe has had a long and distinguished political career in Nova Scotia dating back to 1978, serving eight years as Education Minister and then going on to serve as Minister of Tourism, Attorney General, Labour, Environment and others; and

Whereas Mr. Donahoe went on to serve our Party as interim Leader and to have a distinguished record as Leader of the Official Opposition;

Therefore be it resolved that this House congratulate both Saint Mary's University for conferring this honour on a man who spent many years of his life capably serving Nova Scotians and Terry Donahoe for his many contributions to his Party, his constituency and his province.

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried. (Applause)



[Page 1275]

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

Bill No. 35 - Entitled an Act to Restore the Legal and Environmental Rights of the People of Sydney. (Mr. Graham Steele)

Bill No. 36 - Entitled an Act to Conserve the Bras d'Or Lakes. (Mr. Kenneth MacAskill)

MR. SPEAKER: Ordered that these bills be read a second time on a future day.

NOTICES OF MOTION

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Sackville-Cobequid.

RESOLUTION NO. 529 MR. JOHN HOLM: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas 2001 is the International Year of Volunteers and the week of April 22nd to 28th is National Volunteer Week, a week dedicated to honouring the many volunteers from across the province; and

Whereas volunteers who give so generously of their energies, skills and family time are the unsung heroes and backbone of our communities; and

Whereas Gordon Morgan of Sackville, was recognized at today's Provincial Volunteer Awards Day ceremony for his many efforts, including the creation of the Sackville Community Development Association, co-chairing and organizing the Sackville Millennium Committee, working with youth, historic displays and concerts to name a few;

Therefore be it resolved that all members of this House recognize the important role volunteers play in our lives and pay tribute to Gordon Morgan as an outstanding volunteer who has contributed greatly to the well-being of the Sackville community.

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.



[Page 1276]

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The honourable member for Victoria.

RESOLUTION NO. 530 MR. KENNETH MACASKILL: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas the Bras d'Or Stewardship Society is a voluntary organization whose members help preserve and protect the Bras d'Or Lakes; and

Whereas all Nova Scotians benefit from the work of this society in protecting the ecological integrity of Nova Scotia's inland sea; and

Whereas legislation introduced today in this House will complement the fine work of this organization;

Therefore be it resolved that this House extend its thanks to the Bras d'Or Stewardship Society for their efforts to preserve, protect and enhance the environmental quality of the Bras d'Or Lakes.

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The honourable member for Sackville-Beaver Bank.

RESOLUTION NO. 531 MR. BARRY BARNET: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:



[Page 1277]

Whereas in his usual fury and with considerable bluster the member for Dartmouth- Cole Harbour yesterday accused the government of reducing the credit limit for the spousal allowance; and

Whereas the same member slammed the government, saying this change was going to take more than $9 million from some of Nova Scotia's poorest citizens; and

Whereas, as is usually the case, the member for Dartmouth-Cole Harbour didn't have his facts straight as there was no change in the credit limit and no increase in the amount of provincial taxes Nova Scotians will be paying; (Interruptions)

Therefore be it resolved that the member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage admit that he was wrong and further that he apologize to Nova Scotians for wrongly causing them concern.

MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.

MR. KEVIN DEVEAUX: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. On two points, one is I will admit that there were some errors, but it was based on a Web page that the government had on its Web site. It was an official Web page and it had the errors, but I believe the government has already admitted the errors. Second, I would hope that if a member is going to stand up and say that another member has made mistakes, they wouldn't make mistakes in their own resolution with regard to the riding that the member represents.

MR. SPEAKER: It is not a point of order but it certainly cleared up any misconception of the facts.

The honourable member for Cape Breton Centre.

RESOLUTION NO. 532 MR. FRANK CORBETT: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas Cape Breton's Sport Hall of Fame is inducting 10 new members during the 4th annual Cape Breton Sport Heritage Awards dinner on Saturday, April 21st; and

Whereas one of the 10 deserving inductees is Marshall Deveaux, whose name is synonymous with the Strands basketball team and with basketball overall; and

Whereas Marshall Deveaux has also been an active baseball player, coach and umpire;



[Page 1278]

Therefore be it resolved that this House congratulate Marshall Deveaux on his outstanding contributions to sports in Cape Breton and on his induction into the Cape Breton Sport Hall of Fame.

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.

[12:15 p.m.]

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The honourable member for Cape Breton West.

RESOLUTION NO. 533

MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas traffic chaos at Bayers Lake results in what business owners call "absolute gridlock;" and

Whereas the failure of the province to reach an agreement with the HRM over traffic light jurisdiction means temporary lights have yet to be replaced; and

Whereas lingering inaction now leads some to park their cars on the shoulder of the Bicentennial Highway rather than enter the park in their vehicles;

Therefore be it resolved that the Minister of Transportation and Public Works take immediate action to co-operate with the Halifax Regional Municipality in alleviating traffic woes at Bayers Lake Business Park.

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?



[Page 1279]

I hear a No.

The notice is tabled.

The honourable Minister of Health.

RESOLUTION NO. 534

HON. JAMES MUIR: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas the Sports Experts Truro Tigers girls basketball team recently captured the gold medal at the Nova Scotia Basketball Association Division 6 bantam championship; and

Whereas on the strength of a solid team effort, the Truro Tigers completed round-robin play with a perfect 4 and 0 record; and

Whereas in a highly-contested and hard-fought championship game, the Tigers edged the Bible Hill Knights 43 to 39;

Therefore be it resolved that all members of this House recognize the players and coaches of the Truro Tigers and the Bible Hill Knights for their hard work and commitment to team play and athletic excellence, and congratulate the Truro Tigers on capturing the championship banner.

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The honourable member for Halifax Chebucto.

RESOLUTION NO. 535

MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:



[Page 1280]

Whereas Halifax architect Brian MacKay-Lyons has been named an honorary fellow of the American Institute of Architects' College of Fellows; and

Whereas Mr. MacKay-Lyons is a native of Arcadia, Yarmouth County and studied at Nova Scotia Technical College, as well as having studied and worked in the U.S.A., Italy and Japan; and

Whereas he has received this distinguished honour for his skill in creating buildings of true form and innovation based on structures found throughout the Province of Nova Scotia;

Therefore be it resolved that the members of this House congratulate Brian MacKay-Lyons for receiving this honorary fellowship for his outstanding accomplishments and thank him for the honour he brings to us as a Nova Scotian.

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The honourable member for Cape Breton The Lakes.

RESOLUTION NO. 536

MR. BRIAN BOUDREAU: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas on this date 75 years ago Johnny Miles of Sydney Mines competed in the Boston Marathon; and

Whereas Johnny Miles not only completed the marathon, he won it, establishing a new record; and

Whereas in 1929, Johnny Miles once again competed in and won, for a second time, the Boston Marathon;



[Page 1281]

Therefore be it resolved that this House extend congratulations to Johnny Miles on this, the 75th Anniversary of this truly outstanding athletic accomplishment.

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The honourable member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley.

RESOLUTION NO. 537

MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas Shubenacadie, Nova Scotia's own Scott Fraser is building speed in the fast-paced life of stock car racing, climbing to the top spot in pursuit of rookie of the year in the American Speed Association short track series; and

Whereas with four top-ten finishes in six ASA races last year and seventh place overall, Scott Fraser has proved he is on the winning track; and

Whereas by finishing up front every week, King Freight Lines teams, headed by Pictou owner Rollie MacDonald, has show they can successfully put a race team together;

Therefore be it resolved that all members of this House congratulate and cheer on driver Scott Fraser and the King Freight Lines team as they race to success and wish them all the best in this series and the many more to follow. I invite all members of the House to meet Scott Fraser tonight at Forbes Chev Olds in the Dartmouth South riding represented by Tim Olive, where this outstanding, upstanding fine young man will answer questions and sign autographs.

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.



[Page 1282]

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.

RESOLUTION NO. 538

MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas our coastline remains a valuable resource in this province; and

Whereas access to this precious part of Nova Scotia heritage is gradually being restricted due to the private sale of this land to non-residents; and

Whereas an example of strict land control for non-residents exists in our neighbouring province of Prince Edward Island, whose government maintains strict control over its shoreline;

Therefore be it resolved that this government show some immediate leadership on the issue of control of our shore-front properties by reviewing the legislation entitled The Prince Edward Island Land Protection Act and bring forth legislation to this House before Nova Scotians lose complete control of our coastline.

MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.

The honourable member for Kings North.

RESOLUTION NO. 539

MR. MARK PARENT: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas abandoned wharves are located throughout the Province of Nova Scotia; and



[Page 1283]

Whereas the community of Kingsport has worked hard on an innovative project to reclaim the Kingsport wharf and surrounding area for community and tourist use; and

Whereas Barry Schaffner, President of the Kingsport Community Association, has personally provided strong leadership in this exciting project;

Therefore be it resolved that this House of Assembly congratulate the Kingsport Community Centre and its President, Barry Schaffner, for their vision and hard work, and wish them great success in this worthwhile project.

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The honourable member for Dartmouth-Cole Harbour.

RESOLUTION NO. 540

MR. DARRELL DEXTER: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas Community Links is a provincial non-profit association helping community groups and organizations across Nova Scotia share effective ways of meeting the needs and priorities of their older residents; and

Whereas by building on the strengths of rural communities and the experience and caring of senior volunteers and organizations, Community Links promotes the principles of community development, shared leadership and lifelong learning; and

Whereas Community Links provides the day-to-day management for the Rural Volunteers Project and is a representative on the International Year of Volunteers, Nova Scotia Working Group;



[Page 1284]

Therefore be it resolved that in this the International Year of Volunteers, members of this House commend Marilyn Worth More, Co-ordinator; Hugh Faulkner, Program Assistant; and Susan Sanford, Co-ordinator of the Rural Volunteers Project for their hard work and dedication in linking together community groups and volunteer organizations across the province.

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The honourable member for Annapolis. RESOLUTION NO. 541 MR. FRANK CHIPMAN: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas as Finance Minister for one year, the member for Lunenburg West increased the size of the debt by a whopping $1.207 billion; and

Whereas this same member is horrified that the debt is expected to increase by $175 million this year, less than one-fifth the amount it increased under his watch; and

Whereas unlike the dismal track record of the member for Lunenburg West, this government has dramatically slowed the increase in the debt;

Therefore be it resolved the former Minister of Finance acknowledge that he either has a poor memory, can't count or has no shame.

MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.

The honourable member for Cape Breton Centre.



[Page 1285]

RESOLUTION NO. 542

MR. FRANK CORBETT: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas Michelle Desjardins of Ottawa and Shawn George of Pictou were named UCCB's Athletes of the Year on Friday, April 6th; and

Whereas both students have shown to be outstanding on the soccer field; and

Whereas Michelle Desjardins also won the Rookie of the Year Award and Shawn George won the Most Valuable Player Award;

Therefore be it resolved that Michelle Desjardins and Shawn George receive the congratulations of this House on their awards.

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The honourable member for Richmond.

RESOLUTION NO. 543

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas volunteers play a major role in the social and economic development of our communities by freely giving of their time and efforts; and

Whereas Rose Marie Fougere will be honoured today at the 2001 Provincial Volunteer Awards Day ceremony and luncheon as the Volunteer of the Year from Richmond County; and



[Page 1286]

Whereas Rose Marie has been a volunteer for over 40 years including serving as the President of St. Francis de Sales Parish Council, Treasurer of the Island View Health Services Auxiliary, Secretary-Treasurer of the Strait-Richmond Hospital Gift Shop, member of the Catholic Women's League, and a past canvasser for the Heart and Stroke Foundation and the Canadian Cancer Society;

Therefore be it resolved that the members of this House extend their sincere thanks to Rose Marie Fougere for her over 40 years of dedication to her community and for being selected as Volunteer of the Year for Richmond County.

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The honourable member for Pictou East.

RESOLUTION NO. 544

MR. JAMES DEWOLFE: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas the people of Nova Scotia are renowned for their generous donation of their time and energy to volunteer and charity activities; and

Whereas in this spirit, June Cameron of Westville received a 2001 Volunteer of the Year Award from the Nova Scotia Government today for long-standing voluntary service to her community; and

Whereas receiving this annual award is of special significance this year as 2001 is designated by the United Nations as the International Year of Volunteers;

Therefore be it resolved that all members of this House recognize and congratulate this exemplary Nova Scotian for her special care, time and talents and wish her all the best in the years to come.



[Page 1287]

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.

RESOLUTION NO. 545

MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas area residents throughout the growing constituency of Timberlea-Prospect have conscientiously collected signatures of homeowners on petitions requesting paving; and

Whereas the residents of MacDonald Lake Road in the community of Hatchet Lake have submitted these petitions for attention to their roads; and

Whereas these taxpayers have agreed to pay their share of this road paving;

Therefore be it resolved that the Minister of Transportation and Public Works state clearly for the residents of MacDonald Lake Road when their road will be paved.

MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.

The honourable member for Kings North.

RESOLUTION NO. 546

MR. MARK PARENT: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas Charles and Doris Keddy of Lakeville started their first full-time farm in 1979; and



[Page 1288]

Whereas today their farm operation consists of 500 acres with 90 beef cattle, along with certified strawberry and blueberry nursery stock; and

Whereas in recognition of their hard work and commitment, Charles and Doris Keddy and their three children have been named Farm Family of the Year by the Nova Scotia Institute of Agrologists;

Therefore be it resolved that this House congratulate Charles, Doris, Treasure, Philip and Amber Keddy and wish them success and good fortune as they provide leadership in the important agricultural sector.

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The honourable member for Richmond.

RESOLUTION NO. 547

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the my colleague, the honourable member for Cape Breton Nova, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas yesterday, British Columbia's socialist Premier Ujjal Dosanjh finally called a provincial election for May 16th; and

Whereas the history of NDP rule in B.C. is very sad, including their fudge-it budget of 1996, the over budgeted, technically flawed, fast ferry and the disgraceful resignation of former NDP Premier Glen Clarke; and

Whereas the NDP in British Columbia, like their friends in Ontario, managed to take a healthy, booming provincial economy and turn it on the brink of bankruptcy in record speed;



[Page 1289]

Therefore be it resolved that the members of this House wish Gordon Campbell and the British Columbia Liberal Party well as they bravely start their quest to (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable member for Richmond has the floor.

MR. SAMSON: Therefore be it resolved that the members of this House wish Gordon Campbell and the British Columbia Liberal Party well as they bravely start their quest to free British Columbians from the disgraceful socialist oppression of the New Democratic Party.

MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.

The honourable member for Dartmouth South.

RESOLUTION NO. 548

MR. TIMOTHY OLIVE: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

[12:30 p.m.]

Whereas each year smoking kills 400 Cape Bretoners directly with more than 40 Cape Bretoners dying each year from second-hand cigarette smoke; and

Whereas 5,300 Cape Breton students aged 15 to 19 smoke and of those young people, 1,400 of them are expected to die by middle age; and

Whereas the Cape Breton Regional Municipal Council has taken a leadership role in the fight against tobacco and is going smoke free with an immediate ban in places of public assembly and plans to phase in a ban for restaurants, halls and drinking establishments over the next two years;

Therefore be it resolved that this House applaud the leadership of the Cape Breton Regional Municipality for this progressive move and for acting to protect the health of the citizens, young and old, of the Cape Breton Regional Municipality.

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.



[Page 1290]

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The honourable member for Dartmouth East.

RESOLUTION NO. 549

DR. JAMES SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas today is Volunteer Appreciation Day in our province; and

Whereas 1 in 3 Nova Scotians volunteer their services to their community and their fellow citizens; and

Whereas these volunteers are being honoured today at a special volunteer appreciation luncheon;

Therefore be it resolved that this House extend congratulations and sincere appreciation to all volunteers who give so generously of their time to assist their fellow citizens.

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The honourable member for Cape Breton North.

RESOLUTION NO. 550

MR. CECIL CLARKE: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:



[Page 1291]

Whereas on March 23rd the members of the Liberal caucus unanimously passed a resolution endorsing Premier John Hamm's Campaign for Fairness; and

Whereas yesterday the Liberal caucus unanimously endorsed numerous resolutions thanking Nova Scotia's municipalities, universities, businesses and community-based organizations for their support of the Premier's efforts to secure Nova Scotia's full and fair share of benefits from offshore development; and

Whereas yesterday the Liberal caucus refused to endorse a resolution calling on the Acting Liberal Leader to bring Nova Scotia's concerns to the attention of the federal Finance Minister at this weekend's Liberal Party gathering;

Therefore be it resolved that the Liberal members explain to Nova Scotians why, despite their agreement that Ottawa is not treating Nova Scotia fairly, they are not prepared to publicly call on federal Finance Minister Paul Martin to do what is both right and fair by honouring the commitments made to Nova Scotians in the 1986 Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Accord.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The notice is too long. (Applause) (Interruptions)

[The notice is tabled.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

ORAL QUESTIONS PUT BY MEMBERS

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period will begin at 12:33 p.m. and end at 1:33 p.m.

The honourable member for Dartmouth-Cole Harbour.

HEALTH - COCHLEAR IMPLANTS: REFERRALS - ALTERNATIVE PLANS MR. DARRELL DEXTER: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. The minister may recall an issue we raised in the House last fall regarding the struggles faced by members of the deaf community who want cochlear implants. Deaf Nova Scotians who want this miracle device have to go to Ontario because of the lack of services here. We have just learned that two hospitals in Ontario, Sunnybrook and London, are refusing to take any more referrals because they have their own work to do. My question for the minister is this. There are children and adults who have been waiting for months already to get referred. Where do you expect them to go now?



[Page 1292]

HON. JAMES MUIR: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member raises a concern which I am very much aware of. There is still opportunity and space in Ontario institutions to do this work. I am optimistic that before too long that service will be delivered in Nova Scotia.

MR. DEXTER: Mr. Speaker, right now there are 34 patients on the wait list at the Nova Scotia Hearing and Speech Clinic, waiting to be assessed and waiting for a referral in Ontario. Surely this seems untenable to the minister. They wait almost a year here in Nova Scotia and another six months in Ontario. Everything is in place for these wait periods to end . . .

MR. SPEAKER: Question, please

MR. DEXTER: . . . and the minister can make it happen. My question for him is this, when will the minister commit that he will make sure this project goes ahead so that deaf Nova Scotians can have the choice to hear?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Speaker, I hope that we are in a position to announce that in the near future. I can tell the honourable member that it was a topic of discussion with senior staff yesterday morning, and also it was one of the topics I discussed with representatives from the hearing and speech clinic last night.

MR. DEXTER: Mr. Speaker, the Nova Scotia Hearing and Speech Clinic told us this morning that there are two Ontario hospitals that are refusing any further referrals. The clinic in Ottawa has also said they will soon refuse these patients. The minister told us six months ago that he was working on this; today he says he is still working on it. My question is simple, are there dollars specifically allocated to the Capital District Health Authority and the Nova Scotia Hearing and Speech Clinic to fully fund this service in Nova Scotia, and when will it go ahead?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Speaker, I hope to be able to make an announcement on that sometime before too long. Obviously I haven't see the business plan from the Capital District Health Authority yet, so I can't answer the first part of his question. It, indeed, would be a program administered through them.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Lunenburg West.

HEALTH - FAMILY CAREGIVERS: TAX INCENTIVES - COMMITMENT HONOUR MR. DONALD DOWNE: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. In the Tory blue book, it promised generous tax incentives would be provided to family caregivers who stay at home to provide care for people who would normally be provided long-term care in facilities. This is year two of that commitment; it said it would be done in

[Page 1293]

year two and this is year two. My question to the minister is, why has the minister failed to live up to this blue book commitment that would assist families and, in the long term, save money to the health care system?

HON. JAMES MUIR: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated in the House on Tuesday, we are in the process of reviewing the in-home support program. Of course, the issue of care by family members is one of the things that is included in that review.

MR. DOWNE: Well, that is not good enough, Mr. Minister; that is not good enough. You have been in power for over 600 days, and you have had a long time to plan for this. In fact, it was in your Tory blue book that it would be completed in year two. We haven't seen a thing done yet. It is bad enough we are charging seniors $50 a day for hospital care. The bottom line, Mr. Minister, why won't you live up to your commitment and provide the much-needed respite care for family caregivers immediately, not next year? Do it now as you promised.

MR. MUIR: Mr. Speaker, the government has already made a commitment in this regard. As the honourable member would know, I believe it was a doubling of the amount of respite care hours that are available to a family each week.

MR. DOWNE: Mr. Speaker, this minister and this government have broken yet another promise. It is an example of wasting valuable long-term care resources that could be used. The blue book promise to Nova Scotians has not been fulfilled; they have misled Nova Scotians on yet another promise. My question to the minister is, will the minister do the honourable thing and help families give long-term care at home by providing tax relief, as they promised, and announce that procedure now?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Speaker, what I can tell the honourable member is that we are reviewing the whole issue of in-home support and, indeed, have doubled the amount of respite hours that are available to family caregivers. I think that was a pretty strong indication of our support for it. Furthermore, as a former Finance Minister, he should probably understand . . .

MR. DOWNE: You said it would be done by savings . . .

MR. MUIR: . . . that the Health Minister does not talk about taxes, that would be a matter . . .

MR. DOWNE: . . . Mr. Minister, no extra cost.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

The honourable member for Cape Breton Centre.



[Page 1294]

ENVIRON. & LBR. - OH&S: OFFSHORE - STATUS MR. FRANK CORBETT: Mr. Speaker, on April 14, 1999, a young Newfoundland man by the name of Shawn Hatcher died in a terrible accident in our offshore. In the aftermath of that death, my colleagues brought to light a big secret being kept by the government and the federal Department of Natural Resources. It turns out that we had no health and safety legislation covering the offshore because Ottawa, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland couldn't come to an agreement. At the time, the officials from this government and from Ottawa said regulations will be in place by the fall of 2000. My question to the Minister of Labour is simple. Where are those regulations?

HON. DAVID MORSE: Mr. Speaker, that is a good question and one that is of concern to this government and, I would suggest, also of concern to the federal and the Newfoundland Governments. We have been pursuing this vigorously. We have made staff available to assist our federal and provincial counterparts into moving this ahead and we look forward to hopefully having those in place by the fall.

MR. CORBETT: Mr. Speaker, so at best we can wait, they are a year late. Shawn Hatcher was crushed by a water-tight door almost two years ago this very day. Charges could not be laid in that accident. They could not be laid in a similar accident today because we have no safety regulations. This minister and his counterparts in Ottawa better have their fingers crossed that no one else gets seriously hurt as they continue . . .

MR. SPEAKER: Question, please.

MR. CORBETT: . . . to bicker over regulations and jurisdictions.

MR. SPEAKER: Question, please.

MR. CORBETT: My question is, will the Minister of Environment and Labour explain why he thinks so little of workers' safety that he hasn't been able to come up with an agreement on regulations protecting offshore workers?

MR. MORSE: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the honourable member for his question. I would like to say that we have been working vigorously on this matter. It requires mirror legislation to be in place, both by the federal and the provincial government. The legislation in place now does not cover all the areas that we would like to see covered so that we can ensure the same level of protection to the workers in the offshore as what is presently experienced by those on the onshore.

MR. CORBETT: Mr. Speaker, I think the minister should speak to his predecessor because when his predecessor was asked about this, he said they were just waiting for the feds to dot the i's and cross the t's. This government recognized the serious nature of this

[Page 1295]

problem when my colleagues brought this matter to their attention almost two years ago yet nothing has been done.

MR. SPEAKER: Question, please.

MR. CORBETT: I want to ask the minister to tell this House when we can expect to see the new regulations, a specific date, protecting offshore workers, regulations that are now eight years too late.

MR. MORSE: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member opposite for being able to clarify that in fact there are regulations in place. They are just not, in our opinion, sufficient and we want to toughen them up and that is why we are going through this, so that we can make the regulations that apply to the offshore just as comprehensive as those that apply to Nova Scotia workers on the onshore.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Cape Breton East.

COMMUN. SERV. - SECURE TREATMENT FACILITY: TRURO - DETAILS MR. DAVID WILSON: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Community Services. Last fall the minister announced the construction of a secure treatment facility in Truro. During that announcement there was a rather skeptical crowd on hand. The reason they were skeptical is because many of them had hands-on experience dealing with children who had behavioural and emotional problems and they were also skeptical of a 90 day treatment program, that it would not be enough. My question to the minister is, would he please indicate for all members of the House what kind of secure treatment facility is being planned for Truro?

HON. PETER CHRISTIE: Mr. Speaker, to the honourable member, the secure treatment facility is being planned. We have had the opportunity over the last several months to have several meetings with the Town of Truro and their town council. We had an opportunity just back a couple of months or so ago to show them the final design. We have picked the final location and indicated to them that we will be bringing children there. There will be a staff of approximately 30 trained specialists and we will be bringing people there for stabilization over the 90 day period as part of our ongoing program for children's services.

MR. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, I am looking for some more details and I am sure the parents are looking for more details as well. Concrete walls are just concrete walls, Mr. Minister. What we are looking for are programs and highly qualified staff to handle these challenging children and youth. That will determine whether the program will be successful.

[Page 1296]

Could the minister please confirm which department is going to be responsible for the overall programming and staffing of that secure treatment facility?

MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Speaker, that will be the Department of Community Services.

MR. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, my final question to the Minister of Community Services is, the staff that is required at a secure treatment facility needs to do more than just to control children and youth during violent outrages, they need to be able to treat children. You need the proper staff at that facility. Will the minister confirm here today that a complete children's mental health team, including child psychiatrists, will be available on-site in Truro so that our most vulnerable children and youth will actually get the treatment that they require, Mr. Minister?

[12:45 p.m.]

MR. CHRISTIE: As I indicated to the honourable member, we will have nursing staff, teaching staff, clinical treatment staff and people to help them with development. The staff that will be there will be staff that need to help the people that are there. If a psychiatrist is needed, a psychiatrist will be available as people need one.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Dartmouth-Cole Harbour.

HEALTH - CIGARETTE TAX: SMOKING RATES - ADDRESS MR. DARRELL DEXTER: Nova Scotia has the second highest cancer rates in the country. Our case rate is 5 per cent higher for women and a staggering 11 per cent higher for men than the national average. Lung cancer continues to be the biggest cancer killer regardless of gender. Despite this, the Minister of Health says he doesn't know how much of the increase in cigarette tax revenues will go to programs and services designed to help smokers quit. He says he still hasn't discussed it with the Finance Minister. My question for the Minister of Health is, why won't he commit the full $20 million increase in cigarette tax revenues to cut smoking rates?

HON. JAMES MUIR: I thank the honourable member for his comments. Just for the information of the House, before I came here we made an announcement with regard to the implementation of an information technology system for the acute care here in Nova Scotia. One of the people who was down to do that was John Malcolm, who is the CEO of the Cape Breton Health Care Complex as well as being the CEO of District 8. He chose to start by talking about the initiative that was taken, the public places legislation or by-law that has been put in place by CBRM, before he began that. Now, I just tell you that for your information because it is a step . . .



[Page 1297]

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable member for Dartmouth-Cole Harbour.

MR. DEXTER: More needs to be done to decrease the number of smokers. For example, investing in sports and recreation would contribute to healthier lifestyles. The extra revenues can also be invested in cancer research and smoking cessation programs. My question is, why has your government chosen to hoard the cigarette tax revenues instead of using it to reduce the obscene levels of cancer in this province?

MR. MUIR: The difference between the amount of money that is spent on treating tobacco-related illnesses here in Nova Scotia and the amount of money that is collected, it is roughly, with the increase, about $90 million, I am told. Part of that money goes into general revenue - it all goes into general revenue - and obviously some of that money is being committed to cancer programs. In terms of the additional monies that will be available through the additional cigarette taxes, I will be talking with the Minister of Finance and encouraging him to do what you had suggested in terms of allocating more funds for smoking cessation programs.

MR. DEXTER: The government has displayed a consistent effort to talk out of both sides of its mouth. On the one hand, they tell us they have raised cigarette taxes in an effort to decrease the number of smokers and on the other hand, they just can't decide how much, if any, of the $20 million will be used for actual smoking cessation programs. So, once again I am going to ask the Minister of Health, if you really care about the health of smokers in this province, why haven't you committed the tax windfall to smoking cessation programs that will reduce the rates of lung cancer?

MR. MUIR: As the honourable member knows, the decision about the tax increase was made by the federal government and, of course, we had to wait for the federal government's announcement on it. He knows very well that I was a supporter of actually increasing the price of tobacco more. I will be discussing this with the Minister of Finance and announcements will be made in due course.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Victoria.

NAT. RES. - HUNTING LICENCES: FEE INCREASES - JUSTIFICATION MR. KENNETH MACASKILL: Mr. Speaker, my question today is for the Minister of Natural Resources. The department offers phone-in applications for the moose licence draw. This electronic application system charges the user $6.90 per call and the fee for handling applications is $10. The fee for phone-in applications for deer licences has risen over $1.00 since last year, yet the cost to government for operating the system hasn't gone up. There should also be a saving with the phone-in systems because Natural Resources staff

[Page 1298]

no longer have to go to rural communities in Cape Breton for the moose draw. My question to the minister is, how does the minister justify the fee increase?

HON. ERNEST FAGE: Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for his question. I think the honourable member's question highlights prudent management within the Department of Natural Resources as well as providing a service to the hunters of Nova Scotia who wish to participate in the moose draw with a much easier and accessible way to conduct their chances of winning the draw.

MR. MACASKILL: Mr. Speaker, my first supplementary. The application fee used to be the same, no matter how you applied, now there are two different fees with about a $5.00 difference. Again, the real cost to government has not changed, so it is hard to figure out why the fee would change. Can the minister explain to the House why there are two separate fee amounts?

MR. FAGE: I thank the honourable member for his question. During the former government's time at the helm with Natural Resources, a system was developed to hire an outside company to expend taxpayers' dollars for the draw. What we have prudently done is gone to the 1-800 number, which is the same as the deer draw, Mr. Speaker, which allows greater access service to the clientele in Nova Scotia; the hunters are used to that system, and it saves taxpayers' dollars. I would say it was a prudent move.

MR. MACASKILL: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the minister for his answers but he is not answering the questions that I am looking for. The Auditor General has said that the fee increases are not about real costs. That is what the Auditor General is saying, so my final question is, can the minister today table any information to show that hunting application fee increases are not just another money grab?

MR. FAGE: I thank the honourable member for the question. I think his questions certainly allow one to point out that the Auditor General's Report was based on all services of cost recovery. In the Department of Natural Resources, whether it is fire protection, whether it is enforcement, whether it is a licence fee, none of those fees are designed for cost recovery, they are designed to help offset the cost of delivering this service, not to fully pay for it.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Dartmouth North.

COMMUN. SERV. - KENDRICK REPORT: DRAFT - OBJECTIONS EXPLAIN MR. JERRY PYE: Mr. Speaker, in October 2000, the original draft of the Kendrick report was submitted to the Department of Community Services. Dr. Kendrick was seeking input of minor editorial matters such as cross-checking of the terms of reference. The input

[Page 1299]

that Dr. Kendrick actually received resulted in quite an extensive final edit, so extensive that it took another two months to complete the report. My question is to the Minister of Community Services. I ask the Minister of Community Services, what was it about the original draft of the Kendrick report that your department so objected to?

HON. PETER CHRISTIE: Mr. Speaker, the original draft submission was made by Dr. Kendrick in a rough form. As the honourable member knows, Dr. Kendrick, after that, took an extensive tour, he had some other work to do in the United States. When he came back in the early part of the year he came to Halifax, and with the department they went over and finalized the report.

MR. PYE: Mr. Speaker, it becomes a bit different on this side of the floor. Dr. Kendrick is a highly-respected expert in his field. His opinions and insight are requested by organizations all over the world, yet this government insisted on extensive changes to Dr. Kendrick's report. Speculation in the disabled community is such that the original draft contained information that would have been embarrassing to the department. I ask the minister, was there anything in the Kendrick report that was ordered removed to avoid embarrassment of this government?

MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is quite right, Dr. Kendrick is a renowned and respected expert in his field, which was the very reason we went to get him to do the report. He did have extensive consultation, as the member indicated, with groups. There was nothing in the report. The report he had sent in was in draft form. He indicated when he started the report that he would come up and finalize it, and he did just that.

MR. PYE: Mr. Speaker, the minister knows full well that he is misspeaking in this House today. The minister would have us believe that this matter has nothing to do with the original draft of the Kendrick report that his government has to hide. If this is true, then I ask the Minister of Community Services, will he table today a copy of the original draft submitted to his department by Dr. Kendrick in October 2000?

MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member knows from his information, that Dr. Kendrick's report was sent by e-mail. He sent up a whole variety of papers. What his anticipation was when he came to Halifax was he would be looking at some of those and making his final recommendations. We don't have a final report from him because he didn't do it until the final draft.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Richmond.

EDUC. - HFX. REG. SCH. BD.: CLOSURES - MIN. INVOLVEMENT MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Mr. Speaker, getting information from the Minister of Education is almost like Alice's trip down the rabbit hole, it gets curiouser and curiouser.

[Page 1300]

Yesterday in the House when asked about school closures and the suspicion of political interference, the minister pleaded complete ignorance. Outside the House, in front of the press, it appeared to be a different story. The minister indicated to the press that, in fact, there were more schools that were going to close throughout the Province of Nova Scotia. My question to the minister is, will the minister tell the House which one it is, does she play a role in school closures or does she not?

HON. JANE PURVES: Mr. Speaker, I am tempted to ask the honourable member to go ask Alice, but I won't. (Laughter) When I was talking to the press, we were having a general discussion. I said that in a province where student enrolment is declining and is predicted to continue to decline, there are bound to be more school closures. I was not referring to specific schools or specific areas of the province.

MR. SAMSON: Mr. Speaker, I think I might have gotten a better answer out of Alice than what I got from this minister. In response to the question yesterday, the minister said, ". . . the minister is not involved in the school closure process."; no qualifier, no question, she simply was not involved in the school closure process. If the minister is involved in the process, the fact that she says there are more schools closing, then that certainly leaves open the possibility of political interference, let's say possibly on behalf of the member for Dartmouth South. My question to the minister is, will she clarify for the House what she meant, both inside and outside of the House? Is she involved in the process or is she not?

MISS PURVES: Mr. Speaker, I just did clarify that but I would be pleased to clarify it again. The minister is not involved in school closures. The statement I made was a general statement regarding schools in Nova Scotia and the declining population.

[1:00 p.m.]

MR. SAMSON: Mr. Speaker, everyone in this House knows the issue of school closures causes a great deal of difficulty for parents and students throughout this entire province. The minister is sending out two different messages. On one hand she says she has nothing to do with school closures, and on the other hand she says she is aware there are more school closures coming. She said politics had nothing to do with the four schools recently closed in the Halifax Regional Municipality yet ironically, through some miracle of God, Alderney School in the riding of the MLA for Dartmouth South was saved at the last minute. My final supplementary is, if the minister is aware that there are more schools which will close, will she table today in the House the number of schools that will close and which ones they are?

MISS PURVES: Mr. Speaker, there is no such list. I was making a general statement about demographic trends in Nova Scotia.



[Page 1301]

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition.

AGRIC. & FISH. - ADI: USER FEES - CONFIRMATION MR. JOHN MACDONELL: Mr. Speaker, yesterday we learned more about the role of the new Agricultural Development Institute. Executive Director Dale Kelly announced yesterday that ADI would eventually charge user fees to farmers for some services. Will the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries confirm that he has given the new ADI the power to charge user fees to farmers and those user fees are a tax on food?

HON. ERNEST FAGE: Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for his very prudent question. Again, ADI is a farmer-controlled and run service delivery agency which has the full power to implement, with consultation, in the industry, what services they want and if the industry is prepared to pay a fee, then they have that power to do it.

MR. MACDONELL: I guess from that, Mr. Speaker, the answer is yes. This question, I think, will be simpler. Will the minister tell the people at ADI not to impose user fees?

MR. FAGE: Mr. Speaker, certainly I, as minister, will not be imposing upon a producer-controlled board what limitations they can do in supplying services and how they can achieve it. That would not serve the purposes of the agricultural industry in this province or the farmers of Nova Scotia.

MR. MACDONELL: Mr. Speaker, I am amazed at the lack of role that the minister feels that he has in this regard considering that he has given ADI $2.2 million of taxpayers' money. The minister has given this $2.2 million to deliver $5.4 million in services that used to be delivered by the department. The minister may say what he likes about the agricultural community needing those services and how they are going to have to pay through the nose to get them but why won't the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries admit that he just offloaded $3.2 million onto the backs of the farmers of Nova Scotia?

MR. FAGE: Mr. Speaker, as the honourable member certainly knows and has looked at the estimates last year and this year, there are more program dollars for the farmers in Nova Scotia in last year's budget and this year's budget than there was in previous years. The member also knows that the industry is in charge of delivering its own services and certainly the member speaks from both sides of his mouth when on one hand he wants the minister to curtail the farm industry's right to provide services by hanging . . .

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

The honourable member for Cape Breton West.



[Page 1302]

ENVIRON. & LBR. - BOILER ROOMS: YARMOUTH REG. HOSP./VALLEY REG. HOSP. - ORDERS CONFIRM MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Environment and Labour. My understanding is that on or about April 2000 the Public Safety Division of his department issued several orders under the Stationary Engineers Act to the Yarmouth Regional Hospital and the Valley Regional Hospital respecting the facilities' boiler rooms. Will the minister please confirm this fact?

HON. DAVID MORSE: Mr. Speaker, once again the honourable member asks most interesting questions here in this House. There are just hundreds and thousands of transactions that happen on a regular basis within the department and I am very flattered that he would think that I would be aware of each and every one. I will undertake to get him that answer.

MR. MACKINNON: Disappointing but not surprising, Mr. Speaker. I apprised the Minister of Environment and Labour the other day in the House that I would raise matters concerning this division of his department. I guess he is once again unprepared. These orders were later rescinded and eventually spawned an investigation by the professional governing body into the actions of officials in that division. Will the minister now explain why these orders were rescinded?

MR. MORSE: Mr. Speaker, I would hope that the honourable member would want me to first of all verify that this has taken place before I started to try to explain why a subsequent action was taken. I think that would be prudent under the circumstances.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Speaker, this minister is hopeless. I will quote a letter dated September 7, 2000, addressed to the Public Safety Division of the Department of Environment and Labour. It is to the director and it is signed by the Chair of the Stationary Engineers Board. "Your response to the board's letter does not provide the board with a satisfactory explanation. The board will be taking further action. An appointment has been made with the Minister of Labour and, depending upon the outcome of that meeting, the board will be requesting the Department of Justice to undertake a prosecution for a breach of the Stationary Engineers Act."

My question to the minister is, given the circumstances of this particular case, will the minister explain why his office interfered with this case - because there is clear evidence of that - and why safety standards have been compromised, against the directive of the senior safety officials in his department?

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Environment and Labour, there are two questions there, if you would like to answer one.



[Page 1303]

MR. MORSE: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the honourable member for giving me the opportunity to assure the House and Nova Scotians that safety is always of paramount concern to our department, and all decisions are taken in accordance with maintaining that standard.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Cape Breton Centre.

ECON. DEV. - SYSCO PORT FACILITIES: NEGOTIATIONS (CBRM) - CONFIRM MR. FRANK CORBETT: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister responsible for the dismantling of Sysco. CBRM says that they will buy the Sysco wharves for $250,000. They have developed a long-term economic strategy that includes transportation infrastructure such as port development, including Sysco and the federal port facilities linked with road, rail and air facilities; this plan gives them an excellent chance to grow their economy. Can the minister advise us whether he is negotiating with the Cape Breton Regional Municipality on this offer to purchase the Sysco port facilities?

HON. GORDON BALSER: Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated to a number of previous questions, there are 27 proposals that Ernst & Young are reviewing and one of them does in fact come from CBRM, and involves the acquisition of the port facility. I met with the mayor and representatives of the Economic Development Committee from the council. We discussed what their plan entails, and no final decision has been made yet.

MR. CORBETT: Again to the minister responsible for the divesting of Sysco. The government has given up all hope of divesting of Sysco, and it is an ongoing concern. In fact, the minister is so intent on selling off Sysco in a piecemeal fashion it seems he doesn't realize that selling those port facilities to a private interest may cut the legs out from under CBRM for its long-term economic health. Will the minister, in the interest of fairness, agree today to keep Sysco port facilities and those lands included in the CBRM proposal out of the liquidation of Sysco?

MR. BALSER: Mr. Speaker, we are certainly concerned with the economic future of Cape Breton, and that facility can potentially play a large part in that. The question is, what kind of plan comes forward that has long-term sustainability without continued provincial involvement?

MR. CORBETT: Mr. Speaker, he seems to be more worried about protecting the interests of private operators than of the municipality. Cape Breton certainly deserves its share of the offshore boom, when it happens. This government has declared in its budget that transportation infrastructure is a critical link to our communities and the health of our economy. Will the minister please abandon this desperate strategy of selling off Sysco's

[Page 1304]

assets piecemeal and develop a divestment strategy that recognizes the best use of these assets, such as selling the Sysco port facilities directly to CBRM?

MR. BALSER: Mr. Speaker, as we move through the process, the decommission and liquidation, we are going to carefully weigh the proposals to determine what is in the best interests of the taxpayers of Nova Scotia, whether they be in Cape Breton or in Yarmouth.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Cape Breton The Lakes.

SERV. N.S. & MUN. REL. - EQUALIZATION: UNSM - PROPOSAL MR. BRIAN BOUDREAU: My question is for the Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. Yesterday the government welcomed a new proposal for municipal equalization from the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities. The minister says there is universal support for equalization. My question to the minister is simple, if his equalization proposal is so universally supported, why did the UNSM have to make a proposal of their own?

HON. ANGUS MACISAAC: I want to thank the honourable member for raising the question because he brings forward a matter which we have brought to Nova Scotians and municipal units in this province for consultation. We have extended the period of that consultation based on the representations that were made to us by municipal units throughout the province and of course, the UNSM. The fact that his group doesn't understand the concept of consultation should not interfere with the process.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

MR. BOUDREAU: It is obvious the jury is still out on equalization. The plan is to take property tax dollars from one area and ship them to another. Will the minister confirm the plan is still to transfer property tax dollars between municipal units?

MR. MACISAAC: Again, I want to thank the honourable member for the opportunity to address this and for the opportunity to share with the honourable member exactly what is happening and that is that the UNSM has agreed and sought the opportunity to bring forward a proposal which would address the concerns relative to roles and responsibilities and equalization. I indicated that I welcomed their involvement, I welcomed the fact that they indicated they wanted to be able to have an opportunity to address this important topic and we look forward to their deliberations.

MR. BOUDREAU: It is obvious the UNSM deserves much credit for its efforts to improve this plan of the minister's, the UNSM certainly deserves a lot of credit. Many are now concerned the 90 day consultation period means the minister will not have to face this House with the final proposal. My question is, will the minister now assure members of this

[Page 1305]

House that any equalization proposal will be tabled in this House before it is adopted by this government?

MR. MACISAAC: Again, I thank the honourable member for the opportunity to address this topic and I note with interest that he indicated his full support for the concept that was brought forward by us for consultation and it would be interesting to know whether he still has full support for that.

Any program that would be brought forward would require some changes to regulations, perhaps changes to legislation and inasmuch as those matters would be required, of course, the House would be consulted and made aware . . .

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.

TRANSPORT. & PUB. WKS. - VIA RAIL DERAILMENT (STEWIACKE): SAFETY MEASURES - DETAILS MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Last Thursday, one short week ago, a horrific accident occurred in Stewiacke. We have a responsibility in the aftermath to try to learn something from this accident, to do everything we can to make sure it does not happen again. In part, that means taking a look at things that are within our control. The province regulates two short-line railways, the Windsor-Hantsport line and the Cape Breton and Central Nova Scotia line.

[1:15 p.m.]

I want to ask the Minister of Transportation and Public Works, what measures have you put in place in the light of the tragedy - or near tragedy - in Stewiacke to ensure the tracks controlled by this province are safe?

HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is absolutely correct. The two short-lines do fall under the jurisdiction of the Province of Nova Scotia; the line, of course, through Stewiacke where the ensuing accident took place last week comes under the federal Department of Transport.

At the present time, Mr. Speaker, we have a piece of legislation before this House which will provide us with the safety side of administration of those two short-lines. At the time of the passage of that piece of legislation, I would assume that there will be some regulations coming forth with respect to safety.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Speaker, that legislation aside, the immediacy is crucial with regard to safety on these rail lines. One of the identified factors in the Stewiacke accident seems to be that the switch was not protected by a so-called Greenleaf lock, which

[Page 1306]

is highly resistant to tampering. I want to ask the minister responsible for Nova Scotia's short-line railways, can you tell the House how many switches there are on those two lines and what security features are in place to ensure that they are not tampered with?

MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, it is amazing that the honourable member opposite has already decided how the accident came about with regard to the switch. I understand from the investigation that is ongoing with the federal Department of Transport that they have not as yet determined whether or not that switch was functioning correctly.

MR. ESTABROOKS: When incidents such as Stewiacke and the rail incident occur, people need reassurances that such things are not going to likely happen again. So I ask the minister, can you assure Nova Scotians that rail tracks that this province controls and that this minister is responsible for are safe by undertaking to table in this House a full safety audit of these two short-lines in this province?

MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I can assure the honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect that the Department of Transportation and Public Works and myself share his concern with regard to safety on our rail lines. I can assure him that we will take every measure that is required to ensure that that safety is maintained.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Dartmouth East.

HEALTH - TOBACCO CONTROL STRATEGY: REPORT TABLING - DELAY EXPLAIN DR. JAMES SMITH: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health. Today I would like to table for the House a copy of a report that the Minister of Health has been sitting on since October 2000, last year. That report is entitled, A Comprehensive Tobacco Control Strategy for Nova Scotians. Not long ago the minister told the House that Nova Scotians would have to wait until October 2001 to see this report. Well, there it is today. Will the minister tell Nova Scotians what watering down he had to do that required this report to gather dust for a year?

HON. JAMES MUIR: Mr. Speaker, the government is moving forward with a comprehensive tobacco strategy and, indeed, there are some things that have been implemented already including allocating money in this year's budget for smoking cessation programs. We will be introducing (Interruptions) It is our intention to be introducing some smoke-free legislation in the fall. We have the report; obviously we are studying the thing. Just to refresh the honourable member's memory, I am told that a government of which he was part had legislation prepared and ready to go and wouldn't do it back in (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.



[Page 1307]

DR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the minister again identifies . . .

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable member for Dartmouth East has the floor.

DR. SMITH: . . . government when the other Parties wouldn't support that kind of legislation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: That's right! That's right! (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. Everything was going so well too. (Laughter)

The honourable member for Dartmouth East on your first supplementary.

DR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, Page 19 of this report recommends raising tobacco taxes by $8.00 a carton, the report that has gone to the minister. Last month the minister's government raised the taxes only $4.00 a carton. The question to the minister is, will he tell Nova Scotians why his government caved in to external pressures and went against his own report, raising tobacco prices by only $4.00 a carton?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Speaker, as the member knows, when asked, following the announcement of that price increase of tobacco, I indicated that given my druthers as Health Minister, I would like to have seen it go up $8.00 a carton. So my feelings are consistent with that report. I can tell the honourable member that that decision was made by the federal government and I continue to lobby with my colleagues and the Minister of Finance for a further increase.

DR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind the honourable minister that they have a majority government and they have a lot of jurisdiction in this area. The report from the minister's own Tobacco Control Unit was too harsh for that government to be politically palatable; the minister wimped out. Will the minister tell the House why he is endangering the lives of Nova Scotians by leaving the report to simmer on the back burner for an entire year?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Speaker, it was Minister Stewart, I believe, who did chicken out. We had indicated that we would have a comprehensive tobacco strategy in place by the end of this year and indeed, we will.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition.



[Page 1308]

AGRIC. & FISH. - PROD. TECH. BRANCH: ADI REPLACEMENT - COST-EFFECTIVENESS MR. JOHN MACDONELL: Mr. Speaker, I will be directing my question to the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries. The Agricultural Development Institute will be operating on a budget of $2.2 million from this government. I want to ask the minister, can he advise if a cost-benefit analysis has been done to ensure Nova Scotians that Bev Connell's ADI is a cost-effective replacement for the production technology branch of the Department of Agriculture, that the minister gutted last spring?

HON. ERNEST FAGE: Mr. Speaker, I didn't hear a question in that but I really think the honourable member, when he calls into question the integrity of the agricultural industry and their ability to hire the best individuals possible in this province, it smacks of a person who doesn't understand quality hiring.

MR. MACDONELL: Mr. Speaker, I think farmers in Nova Scotia and Nova Scotians generally, would think that when the government is dealing with their tax dollars that they have the expertise to hire the best people and keep them in the department, rather than let them go. Again to the minister, ADI is the fruit of a proposal by the agricultural community in response to last year's cuts in his department. I am not clear and I think Nova Scotians are unclear actually as to whether or not ADI is a Crown Corporation or quite what it is. Can the minister tell us if ADI will be required to make an annual public report and if it will be subject to the scrutiny of the Auditor General and Freedom of Information Act?

MR. FAGE: Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for his question. I would remind the honourable member that ADI is a producer-controlled board and ADI does the hiring, assigns the service, in consultation with the industry. Dollars expended by ADI certainly will be accounted for to the department at the end of the year.

MR. MACDONELL: Mr. Speaker, it seems that ADI, with the message the minister is giving us, will be having its own identity problems. I am told ADI is now finalizing its mission statement and business plan, that is trying to figure out exactly what it is to do. My final supplementary to the minister is, can the minister tell us what criteria he used in the absence of a mission statement and a business plan to justify putting $2.2 million into ADI, or is he simply too busy making jobs for his friends?

MR. FAGE: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member does a disservice to the agricultural community when they are in charge of the services and the programs that will be delivered. These individuals certainly know, through consultation with every commodity group, what services they want and how they want to deliver them.



[Page 1309]

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Cape Breton South.

NAT. RES. - ENERGY STRATEGY: CONSULTATIONS - ADEQUACY MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the minister responsible for the energy strategy. As part of the development of a new energy strategy for Nova Scotia, the government has promised it will consult widely with the public stakeholders and energy experts. A series of public meetings are being held across the province at the following locations: Bible Hill, Yarmouth, Middleton, Sydney, Port Hawkesbury, Halifax and Bridgewater. My question to the minister is, given the importance of the energy strategy to the future of the province, does the minister believe that this consultation is adequately widespread?

HON. ERNEST FAGE: Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for his question because it is a very good question. Seven public meetings offered an opportunity for people who would like to make an oral presentation on how they see the energy strategy of this province unfolding. I would also like to add, there is the Web site and e-mail, as well as written submissions, plus the group will be meeting with concerned groups or citizens individually as well.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Mr. Speaker, the one glaring omission here is that there are no meetings scheduled for Cumberland County, and Pictou County is also omitted from the public meeting process. Surprisingly, Guysborough County is also omitted, even though Sable gas comes ashore at that location. My question to the minister, my first supplementary is, will the minister commit to adding meetings so the widest possible public input can be accessed?

MR. FAGE: Mr. Speaker, certainly, in the names of the communities that were listed Port Hawkesbury is deemed to be central. On the issue of public meetings and various forms of contact, there will be more than ample opportunity for Nova Scotians and, I have to emphasize, this is for all Nova Scotians to put forward their suggestions on how they see energy strategy, usage and consumption unfolding around this province for the coming decade.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Mr. Speaker, the short answer to my supplementary was no, from the minister. I find it strange that the minister feels there is no more need for wider consultation in the province and, in effect, can justify that his own area is not even being consulted by these public hearings. My final supplementary to the minister is, remote rural areas of the province and provincial centres of traditional energy production are being omitted from this public consultation process, will the minister consult more widely with Nova Scotians on this important issue?



[Page 1310]

MR. FAGE: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member raises the proper concern that wide consultations need to be held. Certainly there is the public forum, with the locations announced which are central to a number of regions of the province, but there are also, and I have to emphasize, a number of other forums, the committee will be meeting with and consulting with Nova Scotians. E-mail, the phone, private meetings, consultations, all of those are available . . .

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

The honourable member for Dartmouth-Cole Harbour.

HEALTH - HEP. C: FED. FUNDING - SPECIFICS MR. DARRELL DEXTER: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. This province's failures with respect to those suffering from hepatitis C is a stain on the reputation of the province, one that has deepened with the election of this government because of their failure to live up to the commitments they made before they were elected. Dr. Peltekian, the only hepatologist in Atlantic Canada, released a report card last week which gave this province a lot of failing grades. I am not surprised. We have learned that this province was given an extra $300,000 this year in extra federal dollars earmarked for hepatitis C services. I want to ask the minister this, what services, over and above what is already being offered to hepatitis C patients in this province will you be spending this money on?

[1:30 p.m.]

HON. JAMES MUIR: Mr. Speaker, referring to the report card, if I am not mistaken, I don't think I saw a failing grade on it. That does not imply that there isn't more work to do and we do recognize that, and I can tell you that that money will be targeted for what it was intended. The agreement between the provincial government, which I signed off on a couple of days ago, was for services that will support people who have hepatitis C and that money will be used for that, and we have to report that to the federal government.

MR. DEXTER: Mr. Speaker, my question was with respect to those services that are over and above those already being offered. We met with the Atlantic Hepatitis C Coalition. The Health Department told them it doesn't want to be responsible for developing a strategy to deal with a hepatitis C strategy. They told the coalition that this was their responsibility. The coalition developed a proposal to do a strategy and this government responded by giving them $20,000, not only to develop a strategy . . .

MR. SPEAKER: Question, please.



[Page 1311]

MR. DEXTER: . . . but to fund six community support centres as well. This is a disgrace. If the Department of Health . . .

MR. SPEAKER: Question, please.

MR. DEXTER: . . . won't develop a strategy, will you at least commit to adequately funding the coalition and Dr. Peltekian to develop one?

MR. MUIR: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member, I think, knows that Nova Scotia was one of the very first provinces in Canada to recognize hepatitis C outside of the window, and one of the reasons for that was the Department of Health, through its public health office, wrote letters to something like 3,200 Nova Scotians who had received blood transfusions. As a result of that, this province was among the very first in the country to provide support and services for people who were infected outside the window.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The time allotted for the Oral Question Period has expired.

The honourable member for Dartmouth South on an introduction.

MR. TIMOTHY OLIVE: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to introduce to you and to all members of the House a guest of the Legislature in the Speaker's Gallery, Lori Mosher. Lori Mosher used to be employed in the PC caucus office, now the Government caucus office, and moved to Holland and is now happily married and known as Lori Duin. It gives me great pleasure to introduce her to the House and I would ask the House to give her a warm welcome in her visit back to Nova Scotia. (Applause)

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Chester-St. Margaret's on an introduction.

MR. JOHN CHATAWAY: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the moment and I really don't have that much to say but I would just like to introduce somebody in our east gallery, Mr. Andrew Johnson, who has worked in many parts of Canada but, wisely, in semi-retirement - I know he is very busy at home, et cetera, fixing up a beautiful lot - settled in the lodge, which is very close to Hubbards. Welcome to our gallery today. (Applause)

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Cape Breton North on an introduction.

MR. CECIL CLARKE: Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise today and make an introduction. We have a couple of guests in the Speaker's Gallery from Cape Breton, from the community of Sydney, John and Barbara Shaw, and I would like to extend our appreciation for their being able to be here today. (Applause)



[Page 1312]

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of personal privilege. On Tuesday, after estimates, I spoke to the Minister of Human Resources regarding a question on a certain funding paid by his department to Thompson Associates. On a question on Wednesday, the minister, once again, did not have the information, but indicated that that information would be brought to this House. To date, it is now 1:35 p.m., that information has not been provided. The minister indicated clearly that he would do so to this House and he has not lived up to that. I would ask you to make a ruling on that and order the minister to make that information available to this House.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, actually, I did have the information for the member, however, I thought he would probably ask me a question, and failing asking me a question, I thought he would go across to the Red Chamber and join us at the estimates for the Department of Human Resources.

MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The providing of information by the minister, as I recall, he did mention he would provide it however, I didn't hear him say a specific time. It is clearly not a point of privilege.

The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the permission of the House to revert to the order of business, Government Notices of Motion.

MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

GOVERNMENT NOTICES OF MOTION

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Premier.

RESOLUTION NO. 554 HON. JOHN HAMM (The Premier): Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas just last year the members of this House passed legislation which recognizes Yom haShoah as Holocaust Memorial Day in Nova Scotia; and



[Page 1313]

Whereas haShoah, (the Holocaust) refers to the state-sponsored, systematic persecution and annihilation of European Jewry by the Nazis and their collaborators between 1933 and 1945; and

Whereas 6 million Jewish men, women and children were murdered by the Nazis and their collaborators;

Therefore be it resolved that all members recognize the significance of this day which stands both as a symbol of one of history's most treacherous incidents of man's inhumanity to man and, therefore, as a time to honour those victims of the Holocaust and its survivors and those who lost their lives fighting to end the tyranny of the Nazis and their collaborators.

Mr. Speaker, I request waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

GOVERNMENT BUSINESS

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, would you please call the order of business, Government Motions.

GOVERNMENT MOTIONS

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I move that you do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole House on Supply unto Her Majesty.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Halifax Fairview.

MR. GRAHAM STEELE: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to rise today to address another subject that has come to my attention from my constituents; my constituents from whom I learn a great deal about the real issues faced by Nova Scotians. I

[Page 1314]

want to talk about a group of people who offer an incalculable service to Nova Scotia but do so under a great deal of strain and stress. I am talking about family caregivers, people who provide medical care and support to members of their family in their own homes.

What my constituents are telling me is that the promise is very different from the reality when it comes to home care. As one person put it to me, home care is very much over-sold to families when a loved one is about to be released from the hospital. So I want to talk a little bit about that today. To put it into context I would like to talk about three particular cases who are, in some ways, in different parts of the continuum.

One case, which came up during the recent by-election, was of a woman who lived next door to her sister, her sister became ill and was taken to the hospital. Much to the family's surprise one day, the sick woman's daughter got a call saying come and get your mother, she is being discharged. Neither the mother nor the family were ready, it came as a great surprise to them given what they knew about the woman's health; nevertheless, they had no choice but to take their mother home. Under circumstances of already very great stress, this woman was taken back to her home and collapsed on the doorstep. My constituent, who was speaking to me, said that she will never forget the look on her sister's face as she lay there on her own doorstep. The family had to call an ambulance and the woman was readmitted to the hospital through the emergency department and she passed away a few weeks later.

I think this story is a symptom of one part of the reality of home care in Nova Scotia and that is that people are being asked to leave hospitals before they are ready, before their families are ready.

The second case is of a 63 year old woman who is currently looking after her disabled husband who needs a constant supply of oxygen. She has been looking after him in their home for a number of years and she does receive some home care, but she was telling me about all the problems that she is experiencing and she is very articulate about exactly what those problems are.

They are very similar to the third case that I want to talk about, that of a 54 year old man who is himself disabled, looking after his 87 year old mother in their home. They also live with another disabled brother. The mother has Alzheimer's and is not able to care for herself and so the care falls to this 54 year old man. He is in a different place in the home care continuum because his home care has been withdrawn. No care at all has been provided since about the middle of February. It is a very difficult case, factually, Mr. Speaker. I am not going to pretend otherwise. But it is difficult to get to the heart of the case because right now I, as this family's MLA, am embroiled in issues about just trying to get information about this case. Getting home care to speak to me as the MLA - and we went through a bit of a rigmarole to get consent which home care then decided was not necessary in the first place - now that I would like to get a look at the file itself, I am being told no, I cannot see the file

[Page 1315]

without applying under the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, which as we all know can take a month or more.

So, it is a difficult case factually which we are still trying to get to the bottom of, but the issues in that case are exactly the same as the issues raised by other family caregivers. The issues in a nutshell are a lack of consistency, lack of continuity and a desperate need for standards that are adhered to.

Let me talk very briefly about some of the issues that my constituents are raising with me. These are people who are experiencing home care, they know what it is like in their home, they know what the reality is.

First of all, there is a problem simply with finding staff. This could be a function of low wages, a shortage of trained people - whatever the reason is, the fact is that there is a shortage of trained home care workers. This problem shows itself when the government announces that there is going to be more hours provided for respite care. Well, the 63 year old woman that I talked about earlier told me that she has been allocated those additional hours but the home care agency does not have the staff to actually provide it. So, although in theory she gets an increase in respite, her reality is that it is simply not available because the agencies do not have the staff to provide the service. That is a big problem. I hope the government is listening when I say that it is one thing to announce an improvement in service, it is quite another thing to actually deliver it.

One of the recurring problems in the home care business is low wages. Home care workers are not paid a great deal of money, close to minimum wage. This results in a high turnover of staff and high turnover is at the root of many of the problems my constituents are telling me about.

The high turnover means that there is a relatively inexperienced staff base. It means there is an inconsistency in care. It means there is a lack of continuity in care and this is something that comes up with every person I speak to. When you keep having to have a new person come in, it is hard on the patients who need someone that they know and can trust. It is hard on the family caregivers who also need someone they know and can trust, but because the new people keep having to be trained and retrained and retrained, so the actual time available for respite shrinks and shrinks, pretty soon the caregivers say, no more of this, we cannot keep training new people.

[1:45 p.m.]

The high turnover and the low wages also have another pernicious effect and that is the opening that it leaves for private-for-profit agencies who pay their workers more to step in. There is no question, Mr. Speaker, that in Nova Scotia today there are two tiers of home care. There is one level for people who can afford to pay for their own care and there is another

[Page 1316]

quite different level for those who cannot. This leads to a great deal of stress. As one person put it to me, the problem with the way things work now, is that the system generates very quickly two patients: the one who is ill, and the family caregiver or caregivers who are very quickly stressed out by the enormous physical and emotional demands of caring for a loved one in their own home without the necessary supports.

So the bottom line, Mr. Speaker, there are three points I want to make. First of all, Nova Scotians are being made to leave hospitals before they and, just as importantly, before their families are ready. Caring for a loved one at home is a difficult task at the best of times, never mind when there aren't adequate supports.

Secondly, Home Care Nova Scotia is not being given the resources that it needs to deliver the services that are needed. They are doing their best with their limited resources but with the resources they have they cannot afford to pay home care workers the kind of wages that would keep them. This is another form of downloading. What it is is downloading medical care to families, so that inside the homes of Halifax Fairview, inside the homes of every single member in this House there are private dramas happening every day and every night of people struggling to do what they can to keep their sanity, to keep their own health as they care for their loved ones. That is part of the downloading that this government is doing in the health care system. They are starving home care of the resources they need and the result is this stress and strain on the family caregivers.

The third and last point I want to make, Mr. Speaker, is that there is a group of Nova Scotians who are offering an incalculable service to the province by caring for their loved ones but they are suffering in silence, behind closed doors, inside the four walls of their homes, isolated, feeling cut off and alone, they do not know how many people there are that share their anguish at what is happening to them and their families. These people need support and they deserve support. And my question to this government is, are you listening to these people?

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Cape Breton West.

MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise and make a number of interventions going into Supply today. I couldn't help but pay attention to the noise that was generated outside Province House on Granville Street. It is a sharp reminder that we, as legislators, have an obligation to be sensitive to the issues that confront us here on a daily basis and that is certainly true of the issue that is happening at the Halifax Regional School Board. Obviously, the Minister of Education and the Minister of Health and, indeed, the Minister of Environment and Labour would certainly have been welcome to go out and speak to the striking workers at the Halifax Regional School Board.



[Page 1317]

Mr. Speaker, I am quite confident that if these three elected officials were sitting in Opposition, I don't think you could get the doors open fast enough, they would be rushing out to greet the crowds and pound away at the government for being negligent in its duties, as it has in the past. The members of the Conservative caucus, it was almost like they were standing at the windows waiting for crowds to show up so they could run out and greet the crowds, but here today we can't even get them to leave their seats. They are scared to death to leave the Chamber for fear that the crowds may elicit a little bit of an emotional response and, God forbid, actually get through to these ministers and make them realize what is happening at the Halifax Regional School Board.

Yesterday, the Minister of Environment and Labour, during debates on occupational health and safety - a major component of his department, representing 75 per cent of the budget within the Labour Division of the Department of Environment and Labour - wouldn't even stand in his place and defend his own department. He had a number of backbenchers get up and read from a written text, written scripts that were prepared by some spin doctor within the department or within the bureaucratic level. I find that absolutely shameful that the Minister of Environment and Labour would sit there quietly and not even address one of the most pressing issues of the day in his department.

We have hundreds of very well-meaning, hard-working Nova Scotians who are on the picket line, and the Minister of Environment and Labour doesn't even want to hear what they have to say. I think that is absolutely deplorable, absolutely deplorable that the Minister of Environment and Labour won't even sensitize himself to the real issues that are before his department.

Yes, the conciliator from his department is meeting with both parties upon request, Mr. Speaker, it is far more complex and serious than just that. We have occupational health and safety issues in this province. We tabled item after item yesterday, clear evidence of violations. I would ask the minister if, in fact, he has those 152 reports from the JOSH Committees. We requested that of the minister yesterday, to provide that within 24 hours and to give a report. Yes, the minister will have ample opportunity, he will have 15 minutes to speak on this issue when I am finished. Oh, he doesn't like that, he is waving his hands like it is a big bother.

Well, I am sorry. It is about time the minister started to listen to the people of Nova Scotia, listen to what is happening at the Halifax Regional School Board. It is an absolute disgrace. When we have children who are afraid to go to the washrooms because of replacement workers; that is the term we always had in my community, and other communities have other terminologies, some refer to them as scab workers, some refer to them as 100 and other different names.



[Page 1318]

But the fact of the matter is we have children who are afraid to move around in their own school environment because this minister, the Minister of Education and the Minister of Health have failed to ensure security checks on these individuals travelling through the schools. Why would an individual, a stranger, a man spend an extensive amount of time in a girls' washroom, during the day? That is totally unwarranted and unacceptable. This was brought to the ministers' attention, it was brought up to the Minister of Education and the Minister of Health. What are they doing? They are doing nothing.

Mr. Speaker, they say everything is under control. All these workers are being accompanied by supervisors. Well, where were the supervisors when over $20,000 worth of equipment was stolen from one school? Six computers stolen out of one school and not a whisper, and the other report of a replacement worker mixing floor stripper and Javex. Can you just imagine the toxic reaction on that alone in a school and exposing our children to that. There is no evidence that these air filters have been properly maintained. There is no evidence that the chlorination filtration systems have been properly maintained.

Expecting the principals and administrators in schools to look after something of such a technical nature, Mr. Speaker, just does not cut it. It does not cut it and the Minister of Education has an absolute responsibility to ensure that our children, the children in the Halifax Regional School Board, are in the most pleasant, pleasing and conducive environment for learning. All the extracurricular programs are cut out, except for that one replacement worker who decides to go in, dress up, stick a cigarette in his mouth, smoking a cigarette and play with the children's band equipment. Where was the supervisor on that? Where was the Minister of Education, the Minister of Health and, God forbid, the Minister of Environment and Labour?

Mr. Speaker, in all my years in the House he has to be the minister, in my view, who knows the least amount of his department. We saw today, when I raised the issue of political interference in the Public Safety Division of his department, when inspectors go out and they issue what is equivalent to a court order and what happens - they are called to the mat - and they are saying rescind those orders or else.

Do you know what, Mr. Speaker, for fear of their jobs, they tried to fight that for months and months. This government puts money ahead of the safety of the people of Nova Scotia. That is clearly documented evidence and the minister knows it. On Tuesday I alerted the minister to the fact that I would be raising political improprieties in that division of his department and that is a very pronounced one but, in fairness to him, he inherited that mess from his predecessor, his seatmate, who was the chief architect of political interference, but we know how he feels about safety issues. He brought in a law last year to bring in sunset clauses and to do away with the safety laws of this province. Little did we know when he brought in the Stationary Engineers Act, that was to cover up the political chicanery in his department.



[Page 1319]

Now we have the safety and well-being of the children within the Halifax Regional School Board being compromised because of politics and mean-spiritedness coupled with such an autocratic, single-minded, dictatorial, God forbid if I should use that term and I don't believe it is permissible in this House, Mr. Speaker, but I would say overpowering individual on all his superiors and that being one Mr. David Reid who is out of control and is forcing this very unpleasant, unnecessary situation on the children, the parents, the teachers, and indeed the taxpayers of the Halifax Regional Municipality and indeed the taxpayers of Nova Scotia. Where are the ministers who are ultimately responsible?

Mr. Speaker, this is an absolute disgrace, using cheerleaders from the backbenches to read from prepared scripts for which they are not even fully abreast of the facts. As the member for Queens read his prepared text yesterday, raising the spectre about the Halifax school board taking the union to court, well, that sounds pretty strong and good public relations and we're on the side of right and those bad workers there are on the side of wrong. What he forgot to read because he wasn't aware, I am sure, was that the Labour Relations Board threw that out twice already as being bogus. So they are wasting taxpayers' money to continue to beat up on these workers for no reason at all because Mr. Reid is out of control and nobody is holding him accountable.

[2:00 p.m.]

These ministers, one even had the decency to go out and speak to the stakeholders that put them in here, the taxpayers of Nova Scotia. It's an absolute disgrace, it's the first time I have ever seen a crowd of ministers that will not address individuals who have come here, well-meaning Nova Scotians, to express their concerns. Hiding in the bunker. Well, let's not get too excited about the member for Halifax Bedford Basin. The best we got from her is milk and cookies. That's about the best we've got on this issue.

Mr. Speaker, we don't (Interruptions) Off the rails, indeed. She is off the rails. This is a very serious and major responsibility that's on our shoulders and that's to protect the interests of these children. Make sure that they are given the best environment, the best opportunities for their education, their future. That government is sitting idly by, hiding behind bureaucratic wrangling, red tape and spin doctors.

It's easy to go out and get an inspection and get a clean bill of health when they know you're coming. Put an announcement on your PA system, the Department of Labour is coming. Well, that's some independent assessment. That's exactly what they did at Westray. In fact, if you read the report of the Westray Inquiry, that's what was happening. The company officials knew the day before that the Department of Labour officials were coming and they would go out and spread coal dust suppressant around. (Interruption) That's right. They took the bubble gum out.



[Page 1320]

Well, this is not a time for the Minster of Environment and Labour to be sitting over there idly while the children's health, well-being and their educational opportunities go down the drain. Not acceptable. Mr. Speaker, he won't even answer a question in this House. He refers it to everybody. It's an absolute disgrace. And where is the Minister of Education? Where did all this problem come from? The slashing and burning.

We have some good news for the people of Nova Scotia. Yes. The Public Accounts Committee has invited Mr. Reid and other senior officials from the Halifax school board to Public Accounts for an accountability session. We'll find out what's going on. They may not give it to the Auditor General, but we'll find out one way or the other. He's not going to be left uncontrolled too much longer.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honorable member's time has expired.

The honourable member for Dartmouth North on an introduction.

MR. JERRY PYE: Mr. Speaker, thank you for allowing me the introduction and I thank the member for Sackville-Beaver Bank for giving me the opportunity. I want you to know that in the east gallery there are a number of individuals who in fact are some of the striking janitors who are in here listening to the debate today. I think that this House should offer them a warm welcome. (Applause)

MR. SPEAKER: Yes, indeed. I would echo those sentiments, welcome to our guests in the gallery and welcome to all our guests.

The honourable member for Sackville-Beaver Bank.

MR. BARRY BARNET: Mr. Speaker, I want to begin where I left off last night during late debate. Unfortunately, late debate isn't always an opportunity to express enough during debate on particular issues.

Mr. Speaker, the resolution that I spoke about last night was the opportunity that we need to take as Members of this Legislative Assembly and as Nova Scotians to recognize the hard work of volunteers. Frankly, today is probably a better day to do that because today is the day in Nova Scotia that we recognize people from right across this province. I want to point out to members of this House and to all Nova Scotians the fact that we have had a number of people in my constituency who have contributed greatly to the health, the well-being and the betterment of life in Nova Scotia. Today, across the road, at a ceremony, one particular constituent of Sackville-Cobequid, the member for . . .



[Page 1321]

MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I was given the nod from the Minister of Environment and Labour that he was going to speak on this issue this afternoon, just when I was doing my dissertation. Where is he? Now we are talking about volunteers, when we have an important . . .

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. (Interruptions) Order, please. The honourable member has been around this Legislature long enough to know full well that the Speaker in this House has to recognize an honourable member who is on his feet. I recognize the member for Sackville-Beaver Bank.

MR. BARNET: Mr. Speaker, the issue that I was speaking about last night, and will continue on today, is the issue about the support of volunteers through our community. I was about to say that an individual, a constituent of the member for Sackville-Cobequid, Mr. Gordon Morgan was recognized today by the province with respect to his efforts and his energies around the community of Sackville. I want to congratulate Mr. Morgan for what he has done.

Mr. Speaker, quite often, people like Gordon Morgan don't get the kind of recognition that they so rightfully deserve. There are three people that I want to take an extra bit of time and express a sincere thank you, not to these people but to their families. Although it is a difficult thing to say, the three people I am talking about are people who have passed away over the last year. All three of them, I consider people who have contributed greatly to the Province of Nova Scotia and particularly our community.

The first person that I want bring to the attention of this House and Nova Scotians is a personal friend of mine and a friend of the member for Sackville-Cobequid, and his name is Paul Theriault. Paul fought a courageous battle with leukemia. Paul, during his fight with leukemia, actually continued volunteering in various capacities throughout the community. I want to point out that Paul's efforts and energies that he put forward on behalf of the environment that he lived in, particularly the area of Upper Sackville where he was so greatly concerned about the Sackville landfill, will have a lasting legacy with the people who live in that area, because Paul's efforts and energies were part of the effort and the process to move forward to close what was considered the worst-run landfill in Nova Scotia.

Paul was more than just a person who was concerned about his environment, he was concerned greatly about the young people of his community. He contributed in a fantastic way to sport and recreation, leisure activities. He was the president of Springfield Lake Recreation Association, he coached minor baseball, he contributed in many ways to the well-being of young people in our community. Paul's loss, to his family and to our community will be greatly missed. I certainly know that it will be difficult to fill the shoes that Paul has left behind, but I am hoping that someone will come along and do that.



[Page 1322]

Mr. Speaker, the second person that I wanted to address and speak about was Foster Burke. Foster Burke was the principal at Sackville Heights Junior High School when I was a student at that school. Foster was known by the students as a firm-fist type of principal. He ruled the school with authority. Many of us, as students, not only respected Mr. Burke but we feared him to some extent.

It turns out that his fist had a heart inside of it. He contributed greatly to the development of the young people of Sackville, over and above his work as a principal. He contributed to the River Lake Development Association, where he was the president. This River Lake group operated a number of sports fields and recreation facilities. He also coached, umpired and managed minor baseball organizations in Sackville for numbers of years, even though his children had since moved out of the system. He continued on as a mentor, as a guide, as a person who would help the young people of our community. Foster's family will be well remembered by the people of Sackville, and Foster will be well remembered by the people of Sackville for the hard work that he did.

As well, just a few short months ago another friend, Mr. John Sperdakes, who contributed to sport and recreation to young people in our community, passed away. John was a small man with a big heart who showed what community spirit is all about. He guided and coached young people through many sporting activities. He drove them where they needed to go. He helped them with their young lives and he moulded many people in Sackville who have gone on to great things. John actually was a constituent of the member for Sackville-Cobequid, and I am sure he would agree that John's passing will be greatly missed by a large number of people in our community.

Mr. Speaker, I spoke yesterday to some extent about the volunteer fire service in our community. Unfortunately, I never had an opportunity to talk about the hard work of those volunteer chiefs and those volunteer firefighters who put so much time, effort and energy into protecting us and to making sure that we sleep safely at night. I want to say that the Hammonds Plains Fire Department, which has been in existence for a number of years, they handle over 200 calls a year, and is a growing fire department in a growing community. This month they will be welcoming in 10 new volunteers. The Chief has been in the role of Chief for just over a year. He has done a great job. His name is Rob Cohoon. Rob has certainly taken on the role of leadership in that department at a time when the community is going through some very tenuous growing pains where there is a lot of development in terms of new people moving in. He also was Chief during the time of the great fire in Kingswood. As I said yesterday, the work of Rob and others needs to be commended.

Mr. Speaker, yesterday I also spoke about the work of someone like Ken Margeson, who experienced 75 years in the scouting movement. Ken's commitment to scouting is something that obviously the people in Beaver Bank are aware of, but the people in the Province of Nova Scotia, quite frankly, aren't aware, particularly of the hard work that Ken

[Page 1323]

Margeson has done. He has been involved in scouting for 75 years, but he is just one of a number of people.

Mr. Speaker, there are other people like John and Cathy Peach, a family who contributes greatly to the young people of Sackville-Beaver Bank. I think of Edie Crooks and Brian and Pam Johnson and others who have done such a great job to further the scouting movement and to make sure that the young people of Sackville-Beaver Bank particularly, are well looked after in terms of activities.

Mr. Speaker, I want to go on and talk about Springfield Lake Recreation Association. It is a group that provides a service in the community of Middle and Upper Sackville. They operate two community halls, a number of baseball fields, and have filled in where Halifax Regional Municipality has left off in terms of field maintenance, scheduling and the overall programming of recreation programs in Middle and Upper Sackville. It is a group of volunteers who work hard, who were led by their leader, Mr. Paul Theriault, who passed away and those people have . . .

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable member for Cape Breton West on a point of order.

MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: No, would the honourable member be kind enough to accept a question?

MR. SPEAKER: Would the honourable member for Sackville-Beaver Bank entertain a question from the honourable member for Cape Breton West?

MR. BARNET: Mr. Speaker, at this point in time, no, I do have a lot that I would like to say on this particular subject matter. At some future time maybe I would, but right now I do have lots to participate.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable member for Cape Breton West.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Speaker, perhaps to clarify just a bit, this is . . .

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Is the honourable member on a point of order?

MR. MACKINNON: Well, with regard to the question, if I were to . . .

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable member knows full well that the honourable member for Sackville-Beaver Bank said he would not entertain a question at this time. So is there intervention on a point of order?

MR. MACKINNON: Yes.



[Page 1324]

MR. MACKINNON: The point being, Mr. Speaker, is with regard to constituents of his who are involved with the strike situation and students. Perhaps clarifying that, the honourable member would reconsider?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. That is not a point of order. The honourable member is certainly welcome, but not obliged, to reply to that question.

MR. BARNET: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated earlier, I do have a fair amount of issues that I would like to address with respect to this. If time permits, certainly at the end I will be more than happy to do that but, unfortunately, I didn't have the time yesterday to complete what it was I had to say, and if the member continues to stand up and interrupt me, I am not going to have the time to do it today, but I would like to, Mr. Speaker. So, if I would be able to at least continue on where I left off, I would like to get the - at least for the constituents that I represent in Sackville-Beaver Bank - balance, the end of this debate put forward so that I can at least recognize some of the hard work of those people.

[2:15 p.m.]

I left off, I was talking about the Springfield Lake Recreation Association and I spoke about the hard work of those people. What I spoke about then was the hard work of people like Ward Dicks. Ward Dicks is a parent, he's a hard-working person who lives in Middle Sackville who puts in tremendous hours, particularly during baseball season and all year long operating baseball programs and helping with facilities in Upper Sackville in terms of development and operation.

I would also like to point out that there are people like Brian Bailey who has taken over the role of President of the Springfield Lake Recreation Association. Brian Bailey stepped in at a time when the association needed someone to fill the big shoes of Paul Theriault after his untimely demise.

As well, we have people like Joanne Pashkoshi who is the ever energy behind that particular facility and Joanne and Brian and Ward and others have put in a tremendous effort on behalf of the people of Nova Scotia and it's unfortunate that at times like this, during the International Year of the Volunteer, and during the month that we recognize volunteers in the Province of Nova Scotia, that we're not able to recognize each and every one of these people in a special way. That's why I am taking some time in the House through this debate to talk about this tonight.

There is another group in my constituency that work very hard providing a vital service and that is the Upper Hammonds Plains-Lucasville Development Association. That group does a tremendous job in trying to develop their communities. Over the past couple of years, or three or four years, under the guidance of their director, they have moved forward with

[Page 1325]

education and redevelopment and helping the people of Lucasville and Upper Hammonds Plains, and I want to thank all those people who have done such a great job.

As well, all communities have service clubs and the community of Sackville is no different than communities across this province. I want to talk about some of the service clubs in our community. The first one that I would like to speak about is the Sackville Lions Club. The Sackville Lions Club has put a tremendous amount of effort into our community. I want to mention three people: Laurie Campbell, Perry Oliver and Bill MacDonald. Bill MacDonald is a former member of this Legislative Assembly. They work hard to raise money on behalf of the community. Laurie Campbell is a hard-working individual who has put in a great effort - he has organized a milk carton boat race for next summer, he organized it last summer. The member for Dartmouth East was there last summer and I appreciate him visiting our community. Hopefully, there will be an opportunity for members to participate in that in the near future.

As well, the Sackville Kinsmen Club under the leadership of people like Andy Hoar, and with the hard work of people like Bob Taylor, have contributed greatly to fundraising and community fairs and events and participation. I want to also - I know time is wrapping up - talk about the St. John Vianney Knights of Columbus. That group has helped other non-profit groups. The particular thing that I want to . . .

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable member's time is up.

The honourable member for Dartmouth South has approximately four minutes.

MR. TIMOTHY OLIVE: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to stand in this House and speak on an appropriate issue. Many, many years ago, I am not as young as I look, in the high school that I attended, they changed the classification of the janitor to school custodian. That was many, many years ago, but I must tell you, I think that decision at that time was quite appropriate. The reason I say that is, if you take the word custodian versus janitor, there's been a number of comments made during this work stoppage and this situation with the custodians of our schools. One of the issues was what do these people, these men and women who keep our schools in the excellent condition that they do, what is their job? When I go back many years ago to the change of the word custodian, it reminds me of a meeting that I had on the weekend with one of the custodians of our system, and I must tell you it was quite a meaningful discussion.

This individual who spoke to me, came to my home and talked about what he does in his job. His job is not just cleaning the schools, his job is being a friend and an advisor to the students. He is in an elementary school, which he really likes; he really enjoys that environment. He explained to me that he was quite concerned about some of the comments made during the strike, about what he does, what he is able to do, and what he should be doing. He explained to me the things he does and how the kids in his school rely on him for

[Page 1326]

advice, they rely on him for help, they rely on him to do all kinds of things that certainly come under the word, and are much more appropriate to the word custodian than they are to the word janitor.

AN HON. MEMBER: You are babbling.

MR. OLIVE: No, I am not babbling at all. The honourable member says that I am babbling. The point that I am trying to make here is (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, order, honourable members, order. The honourable member has half a minute.

MR. OLIVE: Mr. Speaker, maybe the honourable member should think about the value of these custodians to our organization. Everybody on this side of the House fully appreciates the value of the custodians to our school system. We are allowing the system to take the role that it is supposed to.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable member's time has expired.

Just before we go into debate on Supply, I would like to recognize the honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect on an introduction.

MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Mr. Speaker, we have friends in the gallery today. Three of them are personal friends of mine, and constituents. They are going through a tough, time of strife, and I know they, rather interestingly, are listening to some of the productive democracy in this House. I would like to ask Rick Gallivan, Chris Morrone and Ron Harrie to stand and be recognized in the House. (Applause)

MR. SPEAKER: Welcome to our guests in the gallery. I couldn't help but observe some constituents from the beautiful Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley also in here in support of the cause, and I would like to welcome them.

AN HON. MEMBER: The Eastern Shore.

MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. The Eastern Shore and elsewhere. (Applause)

[The motion is carried.]

[2:24 p.m. The House resolved itself into a CWH on Supply with Acting Deputy Speaker Mr. William Dooks in the Chair.]

[6:00 p.m. CWH on Supply rose and the House reconvened with Deputy Speaker Mr. Brooke Taylor in the Chair.]



[Page 1327]

ADJOURNMENT

MOTION UNDER RULE 5(5)

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Lunenburg West.

AGRIC. - FOOD: TAXES - MIN. CEASE

MR. DONALD DOWNE: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to stand in my place here in the debate this evening with regard to the resolution that was presented by Mr. Graham Steele, MLA for Halifax Fairview:

"Therefore be it resolved that the Minister of Agriculture start representing the farm community by taking the lead in ending the Hamm Government's many new taxes on food."

It is a sad day when we are seeing the amount of tax that our Premier is levelling on the farm community. He seems to be doing it at a point in time, with no regard for the fact that this is, at the end of the day, putting more pressure on the COP, cost of production of food in the Province of Nova Scotia. I think it is appropriate that we debate this tonight because of the fact that farmers in this province are getting frustrated. What they are doing and saying to me is they want the minister to start fighting his colleagues in Cabinet and to say, enough is enough is enough.

Just recently the $25 a year on marked fuel tax, on marked fuel, this has historically been done, and basically absorbed by the fuel manufacturers. They have been paying for the administrative side of this, but all of a sudden they are charging the individual farmer $25. I want you to know, it is not just the $25 that really gets the farmers upset, it is the principle. Why, all of a sudden, am I going to be paying $25 to be able to get marked fuel, when I have been able to do it all along. I have lived up to the obligations and the restrictions that are in the covenants that we have to sign, they are controlled by the retailers themselves, they are the ones who actually go through the process with them.

It is hard to get marked fuel. As a farmer myself, you just cannot get it unless it is 100 per cent totally used for the production of food. Some people, even if they have to drive from one farm to another and drive on the highway are not eligible for that product. It is a very restrictive clause. It is controlled and it has been controlled, I think, very well. But now, the farmers are forced to pay $25 to be able to do that.

It is going to affect forestry as well. It is going to affect a lot of different sectors. To me, it is unfair, and the farmers are saying it is unfair. They are saying to the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, stand up and fight on that issue. Recently we heard about the fact that if you have a farm and an ambulance comes to your farm, you are going to pay $500. You are going to pay $500 whether you like it or not, if you have a problem. I noted with

[Page 1328]

interest Mr. Greg Webster, from the Cambridge area. He is a farmer. Under the Health Department's ambulance policy, if a farmer chose not to cover his employees under the Workers' Compensation Act, he would pay $85, but because the farmer has workers' compensation to protect his employees, he is going to be dinged $500. Gosh, darn it, that doesn't seem fair to me, that a farmer who has gone out and bought compensation for their employees, just because they have an accident on their farm, they should be treated any different or be treated to the tune of $500, when it could be and should be a lot less.

I hope that the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries looks into that matter, and sees whether or not we can find a solution. We heard just recently that the mink industry is going to be charged 35 cents for a certain test they have on the mink. Another user fee, another tax, whatever you want to call it, it is going to be there. Underground fuel tank inspections, $75. Now that is going to affect principally poultry farms or hog operations or any agricultural commodity that uses a lot of fuel and has buried tanks; $75 a year to do the tank inspection. Again, another cost to farmers.

User fees for water. Permits, now you have a permit for your water. How many people in horticulture have multiple sources of use for water? They have to irrigate umpteen acres of land, and they are not all located in their backyard. They might have to have two, three, four, five permits for their irrigation processes. Well, at $200 a pop, if you had five permits, that is $1,000 that they have never had to pay before and for some of those individuals, that is a lot of money. It is bad enough having to buy the diesel fuel and to irrigate. I don't know how many members - maybe one - who has irrigated before, in this House, but there are not too many people who had to go through the irrigation cost of setting up an irrigation system. Just to go through the work of irrigating is a lot of work. I have friends who do it all the time, and I have spent some time with them; I helped move some pipe and so on and so forth. It is a lot of work and it is a lot of aggravation to keep the crop alive. Now they are going to be forced to pay $1,000 in some cases, or $200 per permit to do that, and I think that is wrong.

Even under the department and the Quality Evaluation Branch, and I noted last year they had $400,000, if I am correct on that, that they had allocated for additional revenue because of user fees or taxation. Under the changeover and the departments lumped together, the recoveries that they are projecting this year are about $1 million. Those numbers show about $1 million; it is a 100 per cent increase. That $1 million is coming from one source; it is coming from farmers. One million dollars, that is what they project. I don't know how else to understand it, but if that is what they are projecting in recovery for the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, maybe some of that is Fisheries, I don't know what the breakdown is, but it seems like every time we turn around it is just one more fee, one more tax.



[Page 1329]

The farmers are saying, Mr. Minister, we understand tough times. We understand we have to take our share of the pain. We understand all that. They have told me that, but they are saying enough is enough, we want you to start saying to the guys on the front bench, stop this because you are downloading to the point where we cannot control it and we are not having fun having to pay it because it affects our bottom line. It is all about cash flow.

Recently we have been doing a lot of talk and we have been concerned about ADI and the fees that could be charged for that, and whether or not they are looking at changes in that, and the simple history of that is clear. When the department was gutted from the Extension Branch of the Department of Agriculture, I stood in this House and said to the minister one year ago that that is the education or the Technology Transfer Division that provided the tools for the farmers of this province to compete. They helped the big farmers; they helped the little farmers; and they helped the mixed farmers. They helped the new entries into agriculture, but no, we have to get rid of that, and we got rid of it.

Then, the minister came back and listened to the farmers and brought in ADI. ADI should be a program that is there to help those farmers that need that help and they should not have to pay for it. In the private sector farmer board that runs ADI, the minister is still the shareholder of ADI. It is taxpayers' dollars that is running ADI, the $2.2 million going into it. I would hope that the minister would say to those board members, you can do your thing but, boy, I don't think user fees should be there.

As a private farmer myself, I can hire somebody in the private sector. There are three choices: I can go to a private sector now and get expertise to come to my farm; or through my feed company, or processor - I spend a fair amount of money buying feed each year - that service is provided. But that isn't the way it is for every farmer in this province. There are a lot of farmers that maybe are just starting out in agriculture, or maybe they have a mixed farm, or maybe they are a part-time farmer and they drive a school bus or something else and they don't have the cash to be able to go out and hire those individuals. I believe there is a responsibility of government to be able to provide that service and to provide the tools so that individual can be competitive. This is a cost to the farmer, as it increases the cost of production in agriculture and it affects the competitiveness.

If you can't afford the cash flow to bring in those specialists, then you are going to be uncompetitive. So it is incumbent upon the minister to do whatever he can to encourage his ministers to leave the farm community alone for awhile. They took a 20-some per cent hit last year in the budget and I think they have done more than their share, but, my gosh, enough is enough. I ask the minister, today, in regard to this resolution, to say to his colleagues, listen boys, let's let these farmers get over that big hit that they have already had. I encourage the minister to do just that. Thank you.



[Page 1330]

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition.

MR. JOHN MACDONELL: Mr. Speaker, actually, if I appear reluctant to get to my feet, it was because I was reluctant to get to my feet. I was hoping that the minister would speak and I thought the order was that he would because I am quite positive he will say something I would want to rebut and now there will be no rebuts about it.

I do want to quote the resolution before us this evening:

"Therefore be it resolved that the Minister of Agriculture start representing the farm community by taking the lead in ending the Hamm Government's many new taxes on food."

I guess if ever there was an appropriate time for a resolution, this certainly is the time and before I get into addressing some of the user fees that the department has dumped on the agricultural community, I want to raise some points to the members of the House who are present. I will table the information that I am going to be reading from, but I want to try to drive the message home.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, although there are a lot of members who have a farming communities as part of their constituency, there is probably none that can speak to it more than you could, if you were in a position to speak, but certainly the Musquodoboit River Valley is known as one of the areas, like the Shubenacadie River Valley, which is one of the best forage growing areas in this province. The impact of agriculture on your community I am well aware of, but I don't think that all members are at all aware of exactly what it is that farmers do and what they get for what they do.

I will table this when I am done with it, Mr. Speaker, but I have here, "A Drop in the Bucket The Farmer's Share", and it is actually a menu. It is sponsored by Canadian Broiler Hatching Egg Marketing Agency, Canadian Egg Marketing Agency, Canadian Turkey Marketing Agency, Chicken Farmers of Canada, Dairy Farmers of Canada, and actually I received it from the Federation of Agriculture. But what it does is list the menu of items that if you went into a restaurant, it tells you what you would pay in the restaurant and it tells you what a farmer would get as a percentage of that item.

If you had as an appetizer a devilled egg, in a restaurant that would be $1.60, but the farmer would get 10 cents. The main course, a medium all-dressed pizza with five ounces of mozzarella, $11.21 is what you would pay in the restaurant and the farmer would get 61 cents. Quiche Lorraine, three eggs, two ounces of cheese, 16 ounces of milk, would be $12.50 and the farmer would get 92 cents. A roast turkey breast dinner, 6 ounces of turkey, would be $8.99 in the restaurant and the farmer would get 32 cents. Grilled breast of chicken with fine herbs, 6 ounces of chicken again, $8.20 and the farmer would get 29 cents. Desserts, crème caramel, one egg and four ounces of milk, would be $4.95 in a restaurant and a farmer would get 18 cents of that. A slice of apple pie topped with cheese, that is one ounce

[Page 1331]

of cheddar, that would be $3.50 at the restaurant and the farmer would get 15 cents of that. For beverages, milk would be $1.50 and the farmer would get 16 cents and I will table that.

Mr. Speaker, I also have another similar publication by the Dairy Farmers of Canada and the members can see that glass, but a total value of $1.50 for this glass of milk and I am assuming an eight ounce glass. The restaurant would charge $1.25. The processor would get eight-tenths of one cent, or eight cents, excuse me, and the producer would get 16 cents for that.

[6:15 p.m.]

When we look at those kinds of numbers and we think about the records of production for producers in this province in a variety of commodity groups, and when we talk about the dairy sector, egg production or poultry production, those are supply-managed and there's a relationship between the cost of production and the selling price of those for what the farmer would get. They are recognized as being relatively stable. We can see from the prices that I have mentioned here, there were a lot of eggs and dairy products in those, and these we regard as the most stable and, yet, we can see the relationship between what the farmer would get and what the restaurant would get.

What about all those other commodity groups that are not under supply management, and they don't have as much control of price in relationship to their cost of production. For them, the situation may be far more dire. I think that when the department puts extra costs onto whatever else it is that the farmer has to face, then that only tends to whittle away at those numbers we just saw. I think that farming is not like any other profession or any other occupation, it is one where the commitment, in some cases, in lots of cases in this province, would be generational. The building of an operation would be done over a very long period of time and there would be few that can be raised from the ground up in a lifetime or in a matter of a few years. Maybe when the minister speaks he will correct me. Actually I understand that is almost what the minister was able to do, and I think to his credit or his family's credit, on their operations.

To add extra costs to a sector that is contending daily with the rigours of poor economies, the rigours of trade disputes with our trading partners and, in particular, the Americans, as we have seen with the battle over - which I would say was protectionist - the potato wart in Prince Edward Island. This was not like taking an item, sticking it on the shelf and thinking that in six months it will be as good as it was when I put it there and we will just wait until the market is better and sell it then. This is not the case when it comes to agricultural production. We're dealing with organic products, their lifespan is limited, even when we consider all we can do with refrigeration and vacuum packs and whatever, but there is nobody who tries to capitalize on value added more then farmers do.



[Page 1332]

There is a real need in this country - and this is something I think that politicians all the way across the country don't consider and I think it's because of the limited number of votes in the rural community and that is that there is a real need for food security in this country and in this province. The things that we should be looking at are how we can sustain the agricultural level that we have, how we can promote it to a higher level. In other words, attract new people to the industry so we can grow the industry and secure a stable livelihood for those who choose to go into agriculture. Adding more costs to their sometimes already uncontrollable costs, is not something that the government should be doing because it turns out to be a tax on food. With that, I rest my case. Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Chester-St. Margaret's.

MR. JOHN CHATAWAY: Mr. Speaker, I very much appreciate the 10 minutes to say some thoughts, and I really have not had great experience with this and I understand, of course, that what we are discussing tonight, ". . . that the Minister of Agriculture start representing the farm community by taking the lead in ending the Hamm Government's many new taxes on food."

Basically, from what I have seen in this government, not only the Minister of Agriculture but all members - the Cabinet especially - but also the Party members, are very concerned about a balanced budget. We have said right from the word go what we are going to do in the way of a budget. This year it is $91 million overdrawn but we are going to where we are going. To carry this out, you have had to collect very accurate figures and we have done a great job of improving the accuracy of the figures that we are dealing with. This, of course, gives us a far greater appreciation of the actual costs that people have when this happens.

I, of course, realize that many things, when we are trying to improve a situation we go and see the people that are using the situation. In many cases we have got a proposal out and then we have said to the people that are using the service, well, how would you collect these fees? Sometimes it has gone ahead and we have certainly improved in that regard. I also remember of course that the member for Halifax Fairview was going to - brought this resolution in - and I know he appreciates that it certainly takes more than 10 minutes, even as inarticulate as I may be. It doesn't matter how articulate you are, you can't solve this in 10 minutes.

I certainly would like to give the minister, I know he wanted to say a few words and I would be more than glad to give up my time for the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries.

HON. ERNEST FAGE: Mr. Speaker, I commend my colleague, the honourable member for Chester-St. Margaret's, for his insight and comments.



[Page 1333]

Tonight's resolution is one that is absolutely critical to the farming community and farmers and farm communities across this province have been a traditional backbone of this province, Mr. Speaker, for generations. They are hard-working people who want to do their job and, certainly, regulations at times and user fees don't meet with their approval.

I would like to talk a little bit about user fees in general and I would like to maybe list a couple. Ones like the lab fees, as my honoured colleagues know and as the member for Lunenburg West rightly pointed out, it was his government that implemented the increase in laboratory fees in 1998. That was the start of cost recovery and laboratory fees and that was brought in by the previous government. The Livestock Health Services fees again were brought in by the previous government in 1996. As well, the meat inspection fees and increases were brought in again by the honourable member for Lunenburg West's government in 1998. As well, in 1996 the fuel permit fee was brought in, again by the government of the honourable member for Lunenburg West.

The story goes on when we look at food establishment fees. Again in 1996, the former Liberal Government was responsible for instituting those fees and putting the fee structure in place. That is not to say that fees are unreasonable and, certainly, many members of the farm community when they attend a farming conference are prepared to pay a registration fee in some circumstances. But certainly there are a number of fees out there currently that the farming community certainly have strong disapproval of.

In my discussions with the federation and certainly individual farmers, they have strongly pointed that out me over the last number of months. That is why a fee like the one for the fuel tax exemption is on hold and we are investigating the legitimacy of their claim with the Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations and we will deal with that situation as they come and as they are pointed out.

I would like to strongly say on the record, there were no user fee increases in the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries' budget this year. There were no fee increases whatsoever. The Agricultural College is considering, as any institution, possible fee increases there, and the 4-H Program decided on a $10 increase in their registration fee for their camp. They run their own programs and, certainly, we don't comment or recommend for them to do that. Those are the realities of the Nova Scotia Department of Agriculture and Fisheries' budget. There were no service fee increases contemplated in those particular areas. That is what took place in this year's budget to date.

I also want to strongly correct the record, there is no question that we downsized the amount of staff at the Department of Agriculture last year. In conjunction with the industry as well as in conjunction with research institutions, we are offering Agricultural Development Institute services. They are a body at arm's length from government, majority membership by farmers. I will allow them to do what is right and best, and they will make those decisions. That is the proper thing to allow.



[Page 1334]

I want to strongly emphasize, in last year's budget there was an increase in program spending on the farms. There were five new programs instituted, the new farmers program, beef loan programs, two new development programs, that put major amounts of new dollars into programs for the farming community. Again, this year we were able to achieve an increase in the budget, all programs were maintained from last year, with increased funding in a number of programs to be offered to the agricultural community this year.

On July 1st last year, it was my privilege to negotiate a new deal with the federal government, which the previous government was unable to achieve in their mandate, which doubled the amount of income support coming to the farmers in Nova Scotia. Those are major increases and major accomplishments and a major infusion of new dollars into the provincial coffers. The provincial government pays 40 per cent of those programs, with the federal government paying 60 per cent.

As well, I have made the commitment on the recent announcement of the $500 million in new aid, that we will be matching and supporting that program. Once the federal government gets their dollars and their program in place, and no other agreements have been signed in any province - we are sitting here waiting for the federal government - we will be ensuring that our money is there, and those dollars will go out in programs to our farmers here in Nova Scotia.

On the issue of user fees, user fees are a necessary tool in helping to cover the cost of programs and services. Many user fees are in place for registration for short courses in the farming community, in the fishing community and every other community. People in those communities deem them as reasonable and acceptable. Certainly the two fees that have caused the most consternation and concern in the agricultural community this year are fees concerning water structure that are associated with the Department of Environment and Labour, and we are having discussions with Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations which did not originate out of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries' budget.

Certainly, they are issues that need to be discussed, explored, there is no question about that, but they are issues that the federation brings forward. I, on their behalf, intervened with my colleagues and have had discussions with them, direct discussions to help promote an understanding, to come to an agreement, and to see if we can come to a solution that works not only for the agricultural industry but for a government that is working extremely hard to balance the books of this province. If we cannot balance the books in this province, there will be no new money for new program spending or money to maintain the programs we have.

If we don't achieve that, there is no way that we can protect Health budgets, Education budgets or the Agriculture budgets in this province. It is necessary, we have to do it. Nobody said it was going to be easy. Nobody said that it was going to be enjoyable. Those tenets of making sure we balance the budget in this province so that new dollars generated by the industry . . .



[Page 1335]

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable minister's time has expired.

The motion is carried.

[6:30 p.m. The House resolved itself into a CWH on Supply with Acting Deputy Speaker Mr. William Dooks in the Chair.]

[6:54 p.m. CWH on Supply rose and the House reconvened. Mr. Speaker, Hon. Murray Scott, resumed the Chair.]

MR. SPEAKER: The Chairman of the Committee of the Whole House on Supply reports:

THE CLERK: That the committee has met and made some progress in considering Supply and asks leave to sit again.

MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, would you please call the order of business, Public Bills for Second Reading.

PUBLIC BILLS FOR SECOND READING

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, would you please call Bill No. 30.

Bill No. 30 - Financial Measures (2001) Act.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Halifax Needham.

MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to take a bit of time to speak to Bill No. 30, the Financial Measures (2001) Act, on behalf of the people I represent in the constituency of Halifax Needham. This bill is a companion piece to the budget, as we all know. It is the piece of legislation that ensures that various new measures in the budget will be authorized in a proper manner.



[Page 1336]

Mr. Speaker, this bill might have been better titled the user fee and hidden tax deception Act. If we had an opportunity to call a bill what it really is, that in fact is what it really is, as the Minister of Health, who is babbling over there, knows full well. Most members of this House have had an opportunity to review at some considerable length the Tory blue book of promises from the election in 1999 and nowhere in that blue book was there any mention to Nova Scotians that if you vote for the John Hamm Government, we will increase revenue by taxing and putting user fees on just about everything that moves in this province and, quite literally, that appears to be precisely what this government is intent on doing.

Mr. Speaker, we look at a variety of important services that are provided by government; for example, the Child Abuse Registry, a place where people have the ability to go and find out if someone they are about to hire has any record in terms of child abuse, having been convicted or accused of child abuse in a civil proceeding. Now to do searches of the Child Abuse Registry will in fact cost money and I know that the government maintains that those fees will be waived for particular categories of users of the Child Abuse Registry, such as non-profit organizations, maybe Boys and Girls Clubs, or church-based organizations, and I say to the government, how long will that be your position? When you start looking for more revenue to feed what appears to be your insatiable desire to raise funds in a deceptive manner, then you obviously will go looking at the Child Abuse Registry and those protections that you give us today for non-profit organizations will disappear tomorrow.

Mr. Speaker, there is ample evidence, both at a federal and provincial level, in this country to suggest that that is exactly what occurs when new taxes and user fees are introduced. Rarely do these fees and taxes stay at the level at which they are introduced. They increasingly become the source of greater and greater tax and revenue grabs on the part of government.

Mr. Speaker, today I had an opportunity to speak just briefly with some of the people outside who came down to try to inform members of the Legislature about why it is they are on a picket line. These are workers who work in the Halifax Regional School Board and are, without a doubt, on the low end of the wage scale, in terms of people who are working in our educational system. One of the people I spoke with said, it seems very clear to me that what this government's approach is is to perpetuate a growing divide between rich and poor people in our society, and this divide will lead only one place, it will lead to increased conflict and social instability as people attempt to maintain a standard of living that they see declining as they are surrounded by opulence and plenty in the context of our developed and high-tech society. Not everybody gets to participate equally.



[Page 1337]

[7:00 p.m.]

Herein, I think, lies the problem with this government's approach to the finances of this province and to, indeed, the use of resources in the Province of Nova Scotia for the equal benefit of everyone. Our Finance Critic, the honourable member for Dartmouth-Cole Harbour has had an opportunity to look at the budget and the measures that have been introduced to increase revenue to this government in hidden fees. He has been able to conclude that there is at least and additional $115 million being hidden in new fees and taxes. Fees and taxes that extend to places like Point Pleasant Lodge where cancer care and other patients who are there while they are getting treatment at the QE II have to now pay for meals. When this was discussed earlier on the floor of this House, the Minister of Health said, well, you know, the people who can't afford to pay, we will take care of. What I hear in that idea, Mr. Speaker, is the old idea of means testing.

There is a lot of historical information that we can look at that demonstrates very clearly how demeaning means testing has been, how means testings, in fact, results in many people going without because they simply do not meet the criteria. The ceiling is generally set so low, Mr. Speaker, that most people could not even qualify for any form of assistance or for any kind of discretionary arrangements that would allow them to continue to receive things that are so basic, like meals. This is wrong. This will disadvantage people who are already struggling, in many cases, with overwhelming financial pressures as they are dealing with illness, as they are dealing with family requirements.

Mr. Speaker, we see this government with one agenda, an agenda that is looking at how to download, how to pass on their responsibilities to whoever else they can get to take them. We see a government that has a poorly thought out plan on municipal equalization, a plan that would see those who are least able to pay having to support people who are in maybe better circumstances because property taxes, after all, as the basis for equalization, is a very regressive way to do equalization. Our caucus has had an opportunity to go on record here in the Legislature as being in favour of a provincial equalization plan, but definitely not the plan that has been trotted out as what is required by municipalities that, clearly, are suffering.

Mr. Speaker, when you look at all of this new revenue that is being generated, $115 million-plus in new revenue, you have to ask yourself, what is the problem with this government when they can't provide $8,900 to the transition house on the Shore Shore in Bridgewater so that they can maintain a childcare worker and outreach services to women, who in those communities around Bridgewater are unable, for whatever reason, to go to the transition house. You have to ask yourself, with this kind of revenue, $115 million, new dollars in fees and taxes, how do you explain that this government is unprepared to provide cochlear implants here in Nova Scotia for those deaf persons who desperately want an opportunity to be able to hear and have access to the technology that will allow them to hear?



[Page 1338]

How can we explain to people at Point Pleasant Lodge why they have to pay for meals now when you have this revenue being raked in on higher fees for speeding? Mr. Speaker, the graduated fees for speeders is not a bad idea. It's done in many provinces, but let's come clean with what it is that this government is really doing and when we generate these revenues, let's ensure that we're using them in ways that will most benefit people who are the least likely to be able to participate fully in our society right now. Let's make sure that people who are unable to pay for particular services - surely food, when you're in treatment in tertiary care or an acute care setting, is not an add-on. It is part of the core program needs. Let's get our priorities straight in this province. That, I think, is a very big concern.

In my constituency, I have a constituent whose mother has been in a nursing home and after being in the nursing home, was ill and was in hospital for a period of time. While in hospital, she contracted one of these viruses that they call superbugs - and it has an acronym that I can't quite remember at the moment, but it is a superbug - which is resistant to any form of antibiotic and it's highly contagious. It means that there are no nursing homes in the province that will have this lady back.

She is currently back in hospital, she's in an acute care bed and she and her son are very worried about what's going to become of her. Is the $50 per day user fee going to apply for her? She's one of these people who is absolutely caught in a set of circumstances not of her making. This $50 per day user fee for being in a hospital bed when what you require is a long-term care bed, is ludicrous. It's absolutely ludicrous.

In this situation, this woman is unable to secure a long-term care bed even if there was one waiting for her. Her care needs are far more extensive than can be provided at home. Her son, in fact, was quite prepared to have her home and do a lot of the care himself. He's a school teacher though, he works, he can't be there all the time and he was unable to secure home care for the other period of time that she required care and supervision. So, what is going to happen to this individual? Is she going to be penalized, by this heartless government, $50 a day for taking up an acute care bed? This is totally unacceptable and we see this over and over again.

I have numerous examples of the home care system and my colleague, the member for Halifax Fairview, spoke about this earlier today. He talked about some of the patterns he is seeing in the Home Care Program, where what the government is leading Nova Scotians to believe is available isn't available at all. Why is it not available? We have $115 million in new fees and taxes; we have more than $115 million in new fees and taxes actually.

In addition to the additional $115 million we have $20 million in tobacco taxes, Mr. Speaker, yet we don't have a comprehensive smoking cessation plan ready to be implemented, and a commitment from this government that they will use this additional tax revenue to help people stop smoking and to prevent young people from smoking.



[Page 1339]

This is very important, Mr. Speaker, young people, especially young women, are among the highest number of new smokers each day in our province. We need to be very aggressive in our approach to try to prevent and deter young people from taking up the practice of tobacco smoking. If we had any common sense in this government we would immediately earmark money allocated under the Financial Measures (2001) Act through the new tobacco taxes, the arrangement with the federal government, we would ensure that that money will in fact be used and be used immediately for tobacco smoking cessation programs.

This government has a peculiar habit, I think, of taking federal dollars and using them for means that aren't necessarily what the federal government has allocated revenue for. I think this is a practice we have some responsibility, as legislators, to challenge and to question here. This province, I think it is safe to say, has been punished in previous years by the federal government. We took more than our fair share of the financial hit during the initial years of the Chretien-Martin deficit reduction plan. We saw the Canada health and social transfer introduced, taking money away from our universities and from our health care system and from our social services programs and we also saw infrastructure money disappear and dry up.

Part of the politics of that situation is the reality that the federal government feels that they provide money to the provinces - and a province like Nova Scotia - that isn't invested in the area that it was intended for, and that the federal government doesn't get adequate credit for, because of that and because of the way past governments in Nova Scotia, both Liberal and Tory Governments in Nova Scotia, had squandered their political capital in terms of the federal government, we end up taking a huge hit here in Nova Scotia.

It would be very foolhardy for this government to go down that path again because the kind of punishment that the federal government can bring to bear on people in Atlantic Canada, and here in Nova Scotia in particular - which is our immediate concern - has been demonstrated and it is profound. We have universities whose infrastructure is in a disastrous situation, where their immediate need for deferred funding is in the vicinity of $302 million. Those figures I don't pull from the air, those figures result from a respected accounting firm having been brought in by university administrators to do an independent evaluation on what is required to maintain the basic capital infrastructure in the universities. What does this government do? There was $115 million in new fees and taxation raised in revenue this year, and how much of that has been allocated to deal with the extensive deferred maintenance in the university system? Not one penny. Not one penny has been set aside for deferred maintenance in the universities.

[7:15 p.m.]

Mr. Speaker, we hear the Minister of Economic Development and others talk about the knowledge-based economy. Well, the universities are a critical piece of a knowledge-based economy, they are at the core of whether or not we are going to have a highly-trained, highly-

[Page 1340]

skilled workforce. Along with our community college system, they should be the area in which we are most prepared to invest some of these new, hidden taxes and user fees, but yet, what have we done? We haven't given the universities one cent for deferred maintenance.

Mr. Speaker, this is not really in keeping with the rhetoric of this government's commitment to the knowledge-based economy. It shows that there is actually very little commitment to the knowledge-based economy. I think we need to point these things out, and we need to ask, where is the vision in this government? Yesterday the Minister of Education, in talking about the closing of the schools, the three schools in Dartmouth and the B.C. Silver School in Spryfield, was asked outside the Chamber about whether other schools would close, and she said, in response to a question with respect to the inner-city schools, three of the four inner-city schools which are located in Halifax Needham, my community, she said that inner-city schools would close.

Mr. Speaker, this is unacceptable. A program review hasn't even occurred yet. We are left to question, where is the information on which the minister comes to this conclusion? We are seeing a government that is bringing in new revenue. There is no plan. There doesn't appear to be any plan for the investment of these additional revenues in areas that clearly require investments. Sometimes the investments that are required aren't large investments, they are small. Very small pieces of financial investment would make a significant difference in terms of maintaining infrastructure, programs and strong communities that come from this.

The Auditor General had some serious questions about whether or not the Hamm Government had any kind of real handle on what it was doing with respect to user fees. If I remember correctly what he had to say, he basically said there were no criteria, there was no rationale, there wasn't a kind of business case for the imposition of user fees. The administration of particular programs for which user fees were being collected wasn't necessarily the criteria used to establish the actual amounts of fees that were being charged.

Mr. Speaker, it makes you wonder if they don't just sit around the Cabinet Table with straws, and they pick straws and they have little numbers inside them, they allocate the number according to the particular program that they are looking at at any particular time. The evidence that is being used to arrive at the basic fees that are being charged seems to be no better than that kind of random haphazard, thoughtless, hare-brained kind of process. I say that it is a wrong approach to take. It may generate revenue for the government, but they haven't been able to demonstrate that they are able to allocate and target that revenue wisely to those organizations and those concerns in our communities that most need that money. This appears to be a government that is very capable of harming the people who most need the benefit of any additional revenue that government is able to generate. This will no doubt come back to haunt them.



[Page 1341]

People will see that they are not better off. The quality of their lives, the level of public services have not improved. In fact, they have gotten worse. The waiting lists are longer. The bureaucracy that they have to go through, in fact, is as bad as it was under the former government, if not worse. There are going to be just as many answering machines and voice mails that they are going to have leave messages on before anybody gets back to them to provide the important information they require or the kinds of services that they are looking for than under the past government.

So, Mr. Speaker, in the end Nova Scotians won't be fooled and, certainly, I can speak for the good people of Halifax Needham on this, they are definitely not fooled, especially the seniors. Seniors are a very wise group of people. One of the things that I find the most interesting about people in their senior years is that they can look back over a very long period and they can see all of the things that have occurred over a long period of time. They can go back and they can look at when there wasn't a public health care system. They can tell you what means testing was like when every time you needed something that was desperately needed, you only could get it if you could put the cash on the desk. They can tell you about that. They can tell you about how members of their communities and members of their families had to do without necessities of life. They can tell you what resulted from having to do without. They can tell you that families broke apart. They can tell you that people's illnesses got worse. They can tell you these things. They can tell you that the experience of having to go to a church or having to go to a relative to borrow money for basic services was a humiliating experience, because these are good people who are used to being independent and self-sufficient and caring and giving and, all of a sudden, they are dependent. They will tell you that the means test, as a way to secure basic services, was humiliating, it was demeaning and it was damaging.

Then they will talk about when government finally, because of people like Tommy Douglas, because of social movements like the labour movement that fought very hard for public services, things improved for working people, that it was no longer only the rich who could afford access to university or people of means who could get health care services. They see that we are going backwards instead of going forward, Mr. Speaker. They see how we are now forgetting all of that history that many of these seniors have been through and we are going back to a much meaner time when the only thing that mattered was whether or not you could pay cash on the barrelhead or not.

They don't like it, Mr. Speaker, and do you know why they don't like it? They don't like it because their taxes haven't gone down, in fact they have gone up. They see a contradiction here. They see that the services aren't improving and they are seeing that they are paying more. They are paying in user fees and they are paying in ways that this government has ensured that the good people of Nova Scotia aren't getting the benefit of the federal tax cuts, for example. So people will not be fooled and they are not fooled.



[Page 1342]

Those people are very disappointed, and in my riding there are not a lot of them, but those few people who decided to support the Hamm Government in the election of 1999 are disappointed. In fact, they are a little ashamed sometimes to admit that they believed the kind of glitzy blue book propaganda that was out there that didn't really tell people what the end result was going to be. People who are the neediest people and people who have been good, hard-working people all their lives are now going to lose assets that they have set aside for family members, these things are going to be taken from them if their health deteriorates, if they need to go into a long-term care facility, if they can't get a bed, to move from a hospital into a long-term care facility and they are certainly not all that impressed by this.

Mr. Speaker, seniors aren't the only people in Halifax Needham who are disappointed in this government. I think that it is fair to say that many of the working men and women are very disappointed in this government and the approach of this government. They see that they are working harder. They see that they are paying many more new fees. They see that they are not getting any income tax breaks. They see that this government is thinking about taking the municipal property taxes that they pay for services in their communities and transferring them into other parts of the province without the province assuming the responsibility that rightfully should rest with the province in terms of general revenues and a fair and equitable equalization plan.

Mr. Speaker, in particular, many of these people see the underfunding of public education as being a serious problem. I know that quite often the Minister of Education justifies this government's approach to spending in public education by saying, well, there is declining enrolment so we can allow schools to close, but it is really a shame that the minister and this government can't see the demographic shift as an opportunity to improve public education.

If we have declining enrolment, then the obvious approach should be to say, wow, this is an opportunity to reduce class sizes, not to increase class sizes, but to reduce class sizes. We would have an opportunity to make sure that students in our classrooms would have more individualized attention and, for some kids, individual attention would make the difference between finishing with a very strong and very fully developed academic potential to go on and dropping out and then being in a situation where we have lots of ongoing problems, income problems and maybe other problems because we know that many of our social problems, in fact, are connected to early school leaving and a lack of opportunity in the labour market.

[7:30 p.m.]

Has this government taken the opportunity to invest some of this $115 million in new fees and taxes into improving our standing provincially, in terms of per capita education funding in the country? No, that hasn't changed. We are still on the bottom of the heap. That is a very sad comment, when you consider that this is a province that has a heritage, I think

[Page 1343]

it is fair to say, of considering education as a very important part of our cultural makeup. Education has always been something that Nova Scotians have held in very great esteem, they see it as being an important part of what it is that you have to provide people, and it is only the community that can benefit from a strong education system.

Yet, we really haven't seen, from this government, a commitment to do the kind of investment in education that would really make any kind of substantial difference. Instead, what we see is a fairly mean-spirited approach, which puts the janitors and the cleaners and the custodial workers on the street fighting for their very livelihood, fighting so that their jobs won't be contracted out, fighting so that they will be able to maintain a benefits plan, fighting so that there is some form of job security for them.

Mr. Speaker, I am going to wrap up by saying that there is very little in this Financial Measures (2001) Bill and its companion, the budget, that working people in my constituency can feel good about, can take any sustenance from, can feel any hope around, in terms of their futures and the quality of lives that they feel they work so hard to assure that they will have in this province. What this is is more user fees, more hidden taxes, a downloading from the provincial government onto municipalities and onto individuals as much as possible, and the lack of attention to the real, important issues, where there needed to be a strategic re-investment of additional fees.

Mr. Speaker, as Bill No. 30 moves through this House, I am sure many people will have quite a few things to say, and I will listen carefully to what they have to say. I will probably learn some new things about Bill No. 30 as I listen to the debate, and perhaps I will have an opportunity to speak further on Bill No. 30 as it moves forward. Perhaps there will be some amendments that would see this bill go the way that it should.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Cape Breton South.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Mr. Speaker, again, it is a pleasure to get up and say a few words about Bill No. 30, for the second time. The first bill died quite quickly on the order paper, but not before some of us had a chance to respond to it in second reading. Now, lo and behold, we get another crack at second reading to speak to this bill because it has been reintroduced in a much larger form, I guess. I don't know where the architects of the first bill are but, certainly, if I was the minister responsible for this bill, I would be a little bit more more than upset that this bill had to be reintroduced a second time.

Having said that, I think I could perhaps correctly refer to the bill as an omnibus bill or more to the point, an ominous bill because there are a number of issues in this particular bill that I and members of our caucus - and I am sure that my friends to the right here, the right wingers I call them now - feel as I do that there's room for much discussion with this particular bill.



[Page 1344]

A number of sections of this bill deal with tax grabs, or as the Premier so often states, they're not tax grabs, they're user fees; it is yet to be determined what the difference is between a tax grab and a user fee. No matter how you cut it, it's coming out of the taxpayers' pocket, one way or the other. So, call it what they will, the government is introducing in this particular bill a number of tax grab measures.

There are a number of clauses here that bear some scrutiny and much discussion and perhaps over the course of the debate on second reading of this bill, we will come to many conclusions, some of which will be in the form of amendments to the bill, others will be motions to delay the bill or to set the bill aside for further thought by government, further determinations by members of government as to the error of their ways in terms of this bill being presented to the House as it is. I believe that members of the government caucus who are not sitting on the Treasury benches are going to have to explain to their constituents the difference between user fees and tax grabs as they are individually affected as we move through the next weeks and months.

As surely as I am standing here in my place tonight, almost virtually every Nova Scotian is going to be affected one way or the other by this particular bill, and all of them negatively affected, I might add, by provisions in this bill. I think that there are a number of particular issues that I want to highlight in the few minutes that are available to me this evening. An issue that was brought to my attention by people in my area who were involved with the child abuse registry for employment purposes, I believe somebody told the government that there was some money to be made here, so they are going to charge a fee for that. It's expected to generate $75,000 in revenue, but it is a fee that no one has costed out, no one - not even the Auditor General - feels that there's evidence enough to support that particular grab.

I think it's fundamentally wrong what they're doing here. The majority of what they call businesses that are doing a child abuse search are non-profit organizations like Big Brothers, YMCA and others. I think it's a sad day when the government tries to grab some cash on the backs of those hard-pressed organizations who are literally fighting for their very survival. I had a call from one of the people on the board of Big Brothers who was very upset about this and with justification.

The government has had a history of punishing non-profit organizations. A lot of non-profit organizations in my particular area are hurting because of the way the government is treating them. They're cutting back on any form of help to keep these organizations going and because of that, these organizations were looking forward to the day when they could keep their operations viable by receiving the profits from the Sydney Casino. That was supposed to be a windfall that would keep these organizations going and they could build their programs on the backs of that particular windfall that was generated by the Sydney Casino. What happened?



[Page 1345]

The government wasn't intent on taking the programs that are in place now and forcing them to downsize because of the lack of government support. They went further than that. Not only do they not care about the charities and non-profit organizations throughout Nova Scotia but, in this particular case in my area, because of the Sydney Casino, not only are they not supporting them, but they have taken away the lifeline that was put in place for them. That lifeline was the expected revenue from the Sydney Casino, which would have the effect of making these organizations stronger in order for them to fulfil their community mandate. Heavens knows the government is not fulfilling the community mandate, so it was the casino profits that were going to do it, Mr. Speaker.

It is ironic that on the one hand the government states that it is reorganizing government. They say they are doing something for people in the community to make the community stronger. Well, I can't point to any single thing they are doing to do that. The only thing that is happening here is there is a lot of rhetoric in this place, rhetoric earlier from the Minister of Community Services, who has got everybody uncertain in Nova Scotia as to where they are going with that particular department. Every non-profit organization in my area and, I am sure, in everybody's area throughout this great province, is concerned about where they are heading - with due justification, I might add.

I would suggest, and I said this before in this House, that the members who are not members of the government over there, but are elected to this place to represent their constituents, should tell their constituents why their government, their front benches, their Finance Minister, their Premier, their Minister of Community Services, why these people are cutting back on the very people in this province that can't fight back - the people who are disadvantaged and the people who need assistance in one form or another.

You know what? There is a feeling, Mr. Speaker, in some quarters on that side of the House that there is nobody fitting that category anymore, that they should not concern themselves because everybody is doing wonderful in this province and there is no need for social safety nets anymore. Everybody is doing fine, thank you, very much. That is not the case. There are people out there who are hurting in this province. You heard my colleague, the member for Cape Breton East, talk about that earlier. You have heard other people in our Party talk about that and you have heard people in the Official Opposition talking about that. You don't hear any government members talking about that. They think everything is fine because they have been told everything is fine from their front benches. What they have been told is to stay put, follow the plan and you will all get re-elected. I am going to tell you, as I said here before, there are a number of faces over there that won't be here after the next election because of that very theory. If they think they can sit here and toe the government line without being responsible to their constituents, then they will not be here after the next election.



[Page 1346]

Mr. Speaker, I will give you a local example, the member for Cape Breton North is going to be asked if he supports his government taking money from the casino in Sydney that was earmarked to go to charity. It is a difficult situation for him to be in. While he is on the backbench, he can express an opinion on that but when he gets to the front benches - which I understand will be soon - he is not going to have that luxury. So I suggest he has an opportunity, the member for Cape Breton North, to go down there and tell his people how he really feels.

Does he want these programs for his people or is he going to toe the government line, which he does not have to do now, unless he risks incurring the wrath of the Premier or the Minister of Finance. That may slow down his ascension to the Cabinet. So he has to wrestle with his conscience. Does he stand up for his constituents now or does he toe the Party line in the hopes of getting to the front benches? It is an interesting question that would be put.

I think, also, that member for Cape Breton North and all members on that side of the House, I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, are going to have a difficult time telling their constituents why they are aiding and abetting the smuggling of cigarettes in this province. I would like to see the explanation, and I hope it is a better explanation to their constituents than the explanation the Minister of Finance gave by blaming the courts. The Minister of Finance says, oh, we are going to reduce the fines for smugglers in Nova Scotia, because the courts won't enforce it anyway. What a cop-out. The people I talked to tell me that people tell them that the Government of Nova Scotia is doing nothing here but aiding and abetting smugglers in this province. I think that is a shame. I think that is tragic.

[7:45 p.m.]

Mr. Speaker, you have to wonder who is driving that agenda. It is unheard of that any government in power in this country would take a fine down to the level that this government wants to take it for the benefit of cigarette smugglers to make it easier for the underground economy to flourish in Nova Scotia. Nova Scotians want to know who is driving that agenda, who has gotten to the government on that particular issue. I haven't heard one rational reason why the government would allow that fine to be reduced for the benefit of smugglers in this province. If anybody can give me a logical reason, other than blaming the courts of this province, then I am willing to listen, but the government has been silent on that. The government has been extremely silent on that, because somebody has gotten to the government on that issue.

We are certainly going to be researching this issue more thoroughly over the next couple of weeks, to try to find out why a majority government in this province would allow the fines for smuggling cigarettes in this province, to be reduced, to make it easier for criminals to do business in Nova Scotia. That is what is happening here. I believe that Nova Scotians are owed an answer to that particular question. I am sorry that I can't abide by the Finance Minister's explanation. I can't believe that he would stand in this House and say, we

[Page 1347]

are reducing the fines because the courts won't impose them if they are any larger, the courts won't do their job.

The gall of the Finance Minister and the Minister of Justice, who backed him up, to stand in their places in this House and blame the courts for a reduction in fines. I can't believe this is happening here in Nova Scotia. Not only that, I can't believe that the government is serious in going through with that. But we are going to have to wait and see, because I can certainly tell you that we are going to have something further to say about that issue in the coming days and weeks. It could be weeks or it could be months, but we are going to, certainly, take a long, hard look at this particular bill, and also, more importantly, that particular section.

The Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations has given an extension of 90 days for the equalization plan. We want to know what is going to be the end result of that and when it is going to come into effect. We also want to know where the costs are going to end up, who is going to do what in the swap. We want to know, eventually, what the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities is going to support and what it is not going to support.

Mr. Speaker, another thing that this government is doing in hoodwinking Nova Scotians, Nova Scotia taxpayers, in taking the money right out of their pockets, is not allowing the federal tax break to flow through in Nova Scotia. This government, this Finance Minister, this Premier, and that front bench got very innovative when they found another way to grab some money here. They are going to have an independent tax system. They are going to have another tax system in Nova Scotia that enables them not to flow through the generous tax break from the federal government, rather the province stopped it at the gate, and said, Nova Scotia taxpayers, you are not going to get a tax break here, not now.

But in the election year, they are going to give them back their own money, and they are going to say, we are reducing taxes. What they have done is they have kept the reduction in taxes that was supposed to flow through from the federal government, and they are going to give taxpayers back their own money. Does any Nova Scotian think that this government is doing them a favour? I doubt it.

The polls will tell you that increasingly Nova Scotians are not being fooled by this government. The numbers speak; I am not saying that, the numbers are saying that. The numbers are saying that there is a dissatisfaction with this government, is it any wonder there is a dissatisfaction when people are expecting a tax break that every other province in Canada receives and they don't get it. They don't get it because this government grabbed the money, took it right out of their pocket, lifted it and put it into general revenues - the same place they put the profits from the Sydney Casino instead of giving it to the charities in the Cape Breton area for the purpose for which it was intended in the first place. They did not do that. They

[Page 1348]

couldn't even do that to support a weak economy in industrial Cape Breton. They couldn't even do that.

Mr. Speaker, I think the second time this bill was introduced gave us yet another opportunity, as I stated before, to have another go at it at second reading because I think we need time to make Nova Scotians aware of exactly what is happening in this omnibus bill, or this ominous bill as I like to refer to it . . .

AN HON. MEMBER: Or obnoxious.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Or obnoxious bill because it is all of those things, but taxpayers and the people of this province have to know where this government is going and how this government is deceiving them when it comes to delivering services and collecting taxes. I understand that that is a pretty harsh word, but how else would you describe the way the Finance Minister is coming to this House with non-tax items that are going to cost people money because they are not calling them tax items anymore, they are calling them user fees.

The end result is that there is $29 million in user fees from last year's budget. Seniors' Pharmacare co-pay is $8.4 million per year total. The 911 tax, the tax they said would never be a tax, you remember that. Remember when the Finance Minister said that won't be a tax, it won't impact on your telephone bill? Look at your telephone bill. Hospital user fees, preferred rooms, fibreglass casts, TVs, all charged now, $5 million revenue; those aren't taxes, Mr. Speaker, they are only user fees. It is imaginary money they have to pay. They pay $50 out of their pocket, but it is not money, it is just imaginary money. It really does not count because it is not a tax.

I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that if you are taking money out of people's pockets, it is a tax no matter how you cut it, or no matter what you call it. They are even charging for driver testing handbooks - $950,000. That is a user fee. In other words, if you read the driver's handbook to get a license, that is a user fee so you have to pay for that. Prescription drugs, we are having increasing difficulties with people on community services accessing drugs for various prescriptions and I talked about one of those last week, about the lady who couldn't get the lifesaving drugs. Shame on the government for even proposing something like that in the form of a policy statement to their field workers who were embarrassed to talk to me about it back in Cape Breton, embarrassed. They told me they did not believe it. They didn't believe it was coming. When they got it, they told me they didn't want to enforce it, but had no choice. How petty can a government get when they start taking lifesaving drugs away from people who need them?

Ferry increases, I don't have to talk about those, $300,000 worth of new - of course, that is not a tax, Mr. Speaker, don't get me wrong, that is a user fee. That is a user fee and there is a difference. The money still comes out of the pocket. The taxpayer is still poorer,

[Page 1349]

but it is not a tax, it is now called a user fee. You still get the money lifted from you, but it is a different category now so it doesn't count. You just lose the money.

Insurance agents' licences, $200,000; environmental approvals, $200,000; a teacher's certificate renewal - they couldn't think of any more ingenuous ways to get some money, so if you want to renew your licence, you have got to pay for that. It is not bad enough you pay $50,000 to $60,000 to get your degree in the first place and then you go into teaching and you have to pay hefty dues while you are teaching. Now, to get your licence renewed, you have to pay for that too. I don't know whether the member for Sackville-Cobequid paid his new licence fee . . .

MR. JOHN HOLM: I have never renewed it.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: If and when you do, you will have to pay a fee.

Mr. Speaker, as I stated, 2001-02 user fees, here are some new ones. Now, $50 for the seniors in hospitals. If there was ever something that was draconian it is this. I can't believe that the government would even consider that; I can't believe it. I can't believe what kind of heart that crowd has over there, to force people out of hospitals by suggesting to them that they are going to have to pay $50 a day. I wouldn't want to be the person on a particular ward of a hospital who tells somebody they have to get out of that bed because they can't afford $50 a day.

Mr. Speaker, you and I both know that that is not enforceable, but it is in there in case they can suck some people into paying it, and then if they can't do that they will charge it to the municipality where the hospital is located. That is what is going to happen there. That is a user fee. You use the hospital bed because you are sick, it is a user fee; it is not a tax, it is a user fee. It just comes out of the poor, sick person's pocket, but it doesn't make any difference, it is a user fee, so it is okay in the minds of this government.

The Premier stated when he was running his election that there would be no tax increases in Nova Scotia save one, an increase on tobacco. Well, what he did, instead of that they put no less than, well, dozens of new user fees, taxed just about everything except the telephone poles in this province and called it all user fees. So technically he is right, there are no new taxes except the tax on tobacco, but what did they do then? They dropped the ball there because they put a tax on cigarettes and then lowered the fines for smugglers.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Would the honourable member like to move adjournment on debate?

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: I certainly would like to move adjournment. I wish I could keep going for another hour, but (Applause) I realize that the members have other things to do, so I will move adjournment of the debate.



[Page 1350]

MR. SPEAKER: We will certainly look forward to the honourable member for Cape Breton South coming back.

The motion is to adjourn debate. Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I move the House do now rise to meet on the morrow at the hour of 9:00 a.m. The House will sit from 9:00 a.m. until we have concluded the estimates of the province and the vote thereon. I move the House do now rise.

MR. SPEAKER: The motion is to adjourn. Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

We are adjourned until 9:00 a.m.

[The House rose at 7:58 p.m.]



[Page 1351]

NOTICES OF MOTION UNDER RULE 32(3)

RESOLUTION NO. 551 By: Mr. Richard Hurlburt (Yarmouth)

I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas the successful Yarmouth County Museum Expansion Project (2000) has now received significant national recognition for its recently completed $2.4 million Preservation Wing Expansion; and

Whereas the Yarmouth County Museum earned the Canadian Museum Association's Outstanding Achievement Award in the Management Category for meeting all the CMA's criteria in terms of its national significance, by exceeding the current standards of practice, by showing leadership and creativity, and for the effective use of resources; and

Whereas the CMA also honoured Yarmouth County Museum curator Eric Ruff, by naming him a Fellow of the Canadian Museum Association for his 25 year dedication to the preservation of the area's heritage;

Therefore be it resolved that all members of this House applaud the tremendous efforts of the Yarmouth County Museum's staff and volunteer corps and congratulate them for standing out from such strong national competition.

RESOLUTION NO. 552 By: Hon. Murray Scott (The Speaker)

I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas the story of the fossils of Fundy is about to be universally accessible through a Web site; and

Whereas the Web site project is the brainchild of Sylvia McKoy who works with local economic development and community computer access programs; and

Whereas also instrumental in this innovative project were Don Hannah, Brian Hebert, Trevor Proctor, Dwayne McEachern, as well as River Hebert High School students Trevor Reid, Rachel Glennie, Justin LeBlanc and Nicholas Frail;



[Page 1352]

Therefore be it resolved that all members of this House congratulate everyone who worked on the fossils of Fundy Web site project as they strive to increase and widen interest in the fossil treasures of Cumberland County.

RESOLUTION NO. 553 By: Hon. Murray Scott (The Speaker)

I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas the flourishing film industry in our province is creating exciting opportunities at home for Nova Scotians; and

Whereas Williamsdale resident Art Brown recently seized one of those opportunities when he made his acting debut in the Shipping News; and

Whereas Mr. Brown, in the Shipping News, will be seen in theatres next Christmas;

Therefore be it resolved that all members of this House congratulate Art Brown on his acting debut and wish him further success in his new career.