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HALIFAX, THURSDAY, MAY 12, 2005

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY

2:14 P.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Mark Parent

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll call this meeting to order. We shall continue with the estimates of the Minister of Human Resources. You are a quarter of the way through your opening remarks, so we'll pick up there.

The honourable Minister of Human Resources.

[2:15 p.m.]

HON. CAROLYN BOLIVAR-GETSON: Mr. Chairman, I would like to start by introducing who is with me here today. From the Advisory Council on the Status of Women we have Maureen O'Connell, Acting Executive Director, and Nicole Watkins-Campbell, Communications Advisor. Also here today from the Council are chair, Sonja Power, and members Linda Carvery and Mary Hamblin. I welcome them here today.

With me also, from the Public Service Commission we have Rick Nurse, Commissioner; Gord Adams, Executive Director of Planning and Coordination; Gordon MacLean, Executive Director, Employee Relations; Patti Pike, Executive Director, Strategic Human Resource Management; Kathy Cox-Brown, Director of Audit and Evaluation; Jane Allt, Director of Human Resources Support Services; Cheryl Burgess, Director, Human Resource Innovation and Growth; John Campbell, Director of Compensation and Benefits; Charlie MacDonald, Diversity Management Consultant; Colleen Grow, Communications Advisor; Tom Bird, Executive Assistant; Clarence Guest, Executive Director of Finance; and Jackie Ross, Manager of Financial Planning, are with me also.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We welcome all our visitors.

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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I will continue with where I left off with my remarks on Tuesday. In 2005-06, under the Corporate Human Resource plan priority, the Public Service Commission will focus on the following activities: We will lead communication and implementation of the Corporate Human Resource plan co-operatively with all line departments and the HR forum, and we will monitor and report regularly on the degree and impact of the plan's implementation. Under the Diversity Management Priority, the Public Service Commission will develop a corporate action plan to provide departments with required tools for implementing a diversity management plan, establish a diversity roundtable, provide a dedicated resource to departments to assist them in developing diversity plans, and develop and administer a survey instrument to be sure that we have an accurate and up-to-date picture of diversity within Nova Scotia's Public Service; develop new ways of promoting the Public Service as an exciting and challenging career option, including the development of programs that can assist departments in recruiting talent to the program delivery areas, and develop and introduce practices and programs that recognize employee contributions, and recognize them to continue the Public Service commitment.

This year, under the leadership and professional capacity priority, the Public Service Commission will implement a corporate succession management framework that includes building leadership and professional capacity for career advancement, and develop an HR strategy for professional groups in government, including implementation of the HR strategy for the financial community, and developing an HR strategy for the HR community. Under our Healthy Workplace strategy priority, we will build a capacity for leading departmental healthy workplace programs. Tools will be developed that departments can apply in their organizations to help them with essential elements for a successful culture. Flexible work options, zero tolerance of workplace harassment in all its forms, and extended EAP services will assist with workplace stress and work-life balance, while the development and maintenance of corporate programs and policies ensure that employees are protected from workplace illness or injury.

The Public Service Commission will also continue to provide leadership on collective bargaining. This includes serving as bargaining agent with respect to collective bargaining in the Public Service, as defined by the Public Service Commission legislation. Negotiations within this fiscal year will include Civil Service Master Agreement, EDC, the Agricultural College collective agreement, and the highway workers collective agreement. And this year, under its Human Resource Management Policy Priority Review, the Public Service Commission will focus its efforts on assessing existing policies, identifying policy gaps and prioritizing policy initiatives, and developing and implementing the action plan to address these policy deficiencies, establishing working teams as required.

Mr. Chairman, the government is committed to a strong, skilled, dedicated and responsive Public Service, as reflected in the Public Service Commission's 2005-06 estimates which show a proposed funding increase of approximately $2 million. This

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increase is proposed on the basis of program developments that were initiated in 2004-05. Government now plans to invest in the people who deliver our public services so that Nova Scotians can continue to be assured of responsive and quality service. We are pleased to be a part of a government that recognizes public servants, and will continue to recognize their contributions.

I will now speak to the work of the Advisory Council on the Status of Women. The Advisory Council on the Status of Women is and always has been an organization that spans boundaries and builds bridges. They link communities, all orders of government, and academic institutions. Those bridges are built for all women, with a particular focus on social inclusion and cultural diversity. The keystone of the Advisory Council is people, dedicated council members, high-performance staff and trusted partners in community and government. These relationships make it possible to advance equality, fairness and dignity for all women.

Council members represent the diversity of Nova Scotia women. They are women living in rural and urban areas, who are of African or First Nations descent, who have disabilities, and women who have a variety of educational and employment backgrounds, and who volunteer their time and energy for the benefit of Nova Scotia women. Their substantial commitment to this work is evident in their participation in local events and involvement in the issues affecting Nova Scotia women.

The Advisory Council meets or exceeds its objectives each year. It has raised the bar for some of them, while sharpening and refining others. One measure the Advisory Council has never set, but which I am pleased to report on, is that the high quality of its policy and research work is beginning to achieve national and international recognition. Brigette Neumann, Executive Director of the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women, presented a paper on gender statistics and indicators this year at the OECD World Forum on Key Indicators. She represented the entire country on this technical topic. The Advisory Council and I were also pleased to contribute to the visiting delegation from Eastern Cape Province in the Republic of South Africa. They had expressed interest in the policy recommendations brought forward in the council's report, Building Transitions to Good Jobs for Low-Income Women.

Provincial governments across the country have resources dedicated to women's issues. In Nova Scotia, the Advisory Council is mandated by legislation to advise government on issues of particular interest to women and to bring forward the concerns of women. It's true that men as well as women can be homeless or in need of social assistance; men and women, boys and girls are victimized by violence and bullying; men and women both benefit when a new waste-water treatment plant is installed in a municipality; and of course everyone in this room wants the same educational outcomes for males and females. But while it's true that government decisions affect both men and women, the effects can be dramatically different, and those effects are reflected in the many challenges facing Nova Scotia women. For example, in this province women hold only six of 52 seats in the

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provincial Legislature, and about 21 per cent of municipal council seats. Our grandmothers, mothers, sisters and daughters make up half the population but are seriously under-represented in the decision-making bodies. As well, women's representation on provincial agencies, boards and commissions has dropped over the past few years.

Race, ethnic background, sexual orientation, disability, and other grounds of discrimination add to gender to increase women's disadvantages. One example is that recent immigrant women are almost twice as likely as women born in this province to have at least one university degree, yet they are almost twice as likely to be unemployed. The rise in the number of part-time and self-employed workers affects women more so than men. As a result, almost half of the women are not eligible for employment insurance benefits for maternity leave, parental leave and compassionate care leave. These same women face another economic impact when they retire, limited pension benefits.

The consequences are serious for older women, especially for those who are unmarried. In 2000, 39 per cent of unattached female seniors were living below low-income cutoffs, compared to 25 per cent of senior men. Nova Scotia is facing a population crisis arising from the fact that the birth rate in Nova Scotia is well below replacement level, and has been since the mid-1970s. Higher education and career commitments of women have contributed to the lack of children, but a key reason why so many women and men are unable to fulfil their hopes for larger families is that they cannot afford more than one or two children. The expansion of quality early childhood learning and care would help alleviate the situation. Violence against females in all its forms is highly prevalent in the province. New special norms around sexuality are emerging; for example the amazing growth of violent pornography available on the Internet. These examples demonstrate why Nova Scotia must have an agency that focuses solely on the ways that life in our province affects women.

The issues that most concern women affect all of us - jobs that pay a living wage, violence, immigration and the early care and education of our children - but they affect women differently. That difference must be monitored, considered and sometimes addressed separately. In fact, one of the two major challenges confronting the Advisory Council on the Status of Women is to maintain a coherent approach to the flood of issues referred by government and community.

The Advisory Council's small but dedicated staff accomplishes much, but faces many requests for analytical support through participation in meetings and forums. In the last years, we have contributed to government's work in insurance, HIV/AIDS committee, the immigration strategy and the minimum wage. The other challenge is to improve council's visibility in all parts of Nova Scotia. The council's approach to these challenges will be to maintain and build capacity with many partners. Its wide range of partnerships with communities, governments, and academic groups and institutions allows the council to make progress on its strategic goals. Strengthening those relationships will ensure that the agency continues to serve government and all Nova Scotians well.

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The priorities of 2005-06 reflect the direction set by the Advisory Council members earlier this year. These priorities are consistent with the council's strategic goals and with government's goals of education, the health system and building greater prosperity. The council functions on the four strategic goals defined several years ago by the Advisory Council members, the first is to increase the participation of women and all their diversity in decisions that affect their lives, families and communities. Particular emphasis is placed on women who face discrimination because of race, age, language, class, religion, disability, sexual orientation or various forms of family status - this goal is woven into all of the council's work.

The second goal is to promote women's economic equality, and third is to reduce violence against women in communities, workplaces and families, and the fourth goal is to improve the health and well-being of all women and their families. Women's agencies around the world focus on these primary areas. The goals are universally accepted as priorities for women, and the goals are linked. When women's economic security is increased, they become less vulnerable to violence and their health status improves. When women are at decision-making tables, they can work more effectively to improve economic security, improve women's health status and reduce violence - in other words, when there is advancement in one area, there is progress in all.

The council accomplishes its goals by listening to and advancing the concerns of women in Nova Scotia communities. They provide research and policy advice to the provincial and federal governments on these issues. They also hold forums, prepare discussion papers, and submit briefs to inform and advise policy audiences on a variety of issues that affect women's lives. They provide information to women to keep them connected to the issues that concern them most - and that's a fairly full description of what and who the Advisory Council is and what they accomplish.

[2:30 p.m.]

I will now turn to the council's work for the coming year. The highlight of the council's past year was Atlantic Canada's first non-partisan campaign school for women, implemented in partnership with Mount Saint Vincent University and with the generous participation of many women whose political careers make them role models. Thirty women took part in this hands-on program, and all were thrilled with it. In 2005-06, a priority for the Advisory Council is to increase the number and diversity of women participating in public and political life, and they will offer a campaign school again this year.

Advisory Council publications and information resources are a valued contribution to both government and community users. Their Web site allows them to reach out and link to many policy and community audiences. To continue work towards increasing women's full inclusion in society, council staff will increase the visibility of the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women. Advisory Council members will begin to further

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communicate with their communities through public speaking and the establishment of a speakers bureau that will support them in their efforts.

Status of Women Ministers from across Canada accepted a report titled, Policy Options to Support Dependent Care: The Tax/Transfer System. This report was produced by the Healthy Balance Research Program, an increasingly productive partnership including the Atlantic Centre of Excellence for Women's Health and the University of Ottawa. In 2005-06, council will continue to make recommendations to policy and community audiences aimed at reducing women's precarious employment and poverty. Council also considers increasing women's exposure to and participation in occupations where they are under-represented as a priority. They will continue to work with the Hyapatia Society, the Women for Economic Equality Society, the Department of Education, Department of Community Services, Nova Scotia Community College and human resources and social development to pilot a program for young and re-entry women in trades, science and technology occupations.

Work to reduce violence against women is ongoing. The Advisory Council will reprint its publication, Making Changes, as required. Organizations and individuals across the province have requested 3,000 copies of this publication in the last six months, and thousands more were downloaded. A Web-based resource on Nova Scotia sexual assault statistics will be created and maintained by the Advisory Council staff. Family Violence and Personal Safety, part of the Advisory Council's statistical series on women in Nova Scotia will be updated this year, once Statistics Canada releases its 2004 general social survey.

The Advisory Council's working relationship within government helped to ensure that gender issues are considered during the policy development and program design process. In the future, they will work to ensure that gender issues are specifically addressed to contribute to the strategic goals. Some of the opportunities coming up are the implementation of Nova Scotia's immigration strategy, the development of early childhood learning and care, the health promotion strategy - particularly as it relates to gaming, addiction and HIV/AIDS - and the development of the elder abuse strategy. The council will also work to disseminate findings of the Healthy Balance Research Program and make recommendations to policy and community audiences to support women in care giving, care receiving roles.

The Advisory Council's budget estimate for accomplishing its plan for 2005-06 is $834,500 - this is an increase of $78,000 over last year's estimate. The increase accommodates funding for council's partnership work, including another campaign school. It also accommodates expected increases in staff salaries and operating costs, and to accommodate recoveries we don't expect to make this year.

Council's partnerships with community agencies, I said before, are crucial for helping council meet its goals. The donation of in kind support, most often staff time, has always been central. However, injections of small amounts of funding can help a community partner

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gain access to other funding, which ensures an even better project. The partnership fund supports these relationships which are essential to its success.

I would like to close by extending, to Doreen Paris, my great appreciation for two years of dedication to advancing the fairness, dignity and equality of all women in Nova Scotia. In pursuit of council's goals, Doreen logged hundreds of miles, sat through dozens of meetings, and shook countless hands for two years, and she made a difference in the lives of many women, both indirectly and directly. I recently welcomed the new Chair, Sonja Power, and I thank her for being willing to take on this leadership role.

Mr. Chairman, that brings my opening comments to a conclusion. I know that our staff will continue to meet the needs of Nova Scotians we serve, and we also recognize the need for continued fiscal responsibility. So I am pleased to respond to any questions you may have at this point.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, very much. We will turn to the NDP caucus.

The honourable member for Dartmouth South-Portland Valley.

MS. MARILYN MORE: Unfortunately, I'm a bit squeezed for time as I'm due in about 10 minutes in the other Chamber. I don't actually have many questions, and you probably clarified most of them about the budget. I have to say that I'm really pleased to see the 10 per cent increase, I have a lot of respect for the work of the Advisory Council. I truly believe that the council has a valuable role to play in meeting the needs of the majority of citizens in this province who happen to be female. I do have some concerns though about one area of your goals and objectives, and that's influencing public policy.

I'm a great believer in the positive impacts of healthy public policy on everyone who lives in this province, and I'm a little concerned when I hear you talk about increasing the number of women around the decision-making table - while I certainly support that, don't get me wrong, I don't think we can wait until that happens. I think we need to make sure the message gets through clearly and loudly to our current government, and to any government that follows, that they have a responsibility to test the impact of policies, legislation and practices in this province, so that they know up front how it's going to impact on women and girls.

I come from the volunteer sector and my 15 years experience there taught me well how unfairly a lot of legislation and policy impacts on women. Just look at the practice now of early hospital discharge and day surgery, it adds to the unpaid caregiving responsibilities of women in this province; the changes in access or lack of treatment for people suffering a mental illness impacts disproportionately on women; and the lack of adequate, regulated child care in this province impacts on women.

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In my former position, we lost of a lot of older women volunteers to the fact that they were required to care for their children's children, their grandchildren, because there were no licensed child care services in their community. I was working mostly with rural communities, so more and more often you saw older women staying home in order to look after their grandchildren, and this severely impacted on community groups in those areas. So those are a few examples of the disproportionate and often negative impact on women - it adds to their workload, without the adequate resources following in the community.

I just want to add that I'm really impressed with the quality of research and analysis that the council does, mostly through the staff, I understand. I'm less clear though on how the information resulting from this research and analysis is acted upon by the government. I'd like to ask the minister if you can give me any examples of how the government has acted upon these research and recommendations - let's say from the Advisory Council - in the last couple of years since you became minister?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I would like to start by thanking the honourable member for the questions. As the Minister responsible for the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, it is my role to take these issues forward to government, and I do that on a regular basis. What I have also committed to do this year is to set up a women's caucus where we meet, hopefully, on a monthly basis to discuss issues that solely pertain to women's issues in our province. We do this on a non-partisan basis so that we are assured that the issues are going forward. Recently, we have jointly signed a letter to send to the federal minister on initiatives, and hopefully we will be able to sit down with that minister as a group.

The early childhood strategy that is out there, and you spoke about urban and rural statistics and how difficult it is sometimes in the rural areas to obtain child care. Those are all initiatives that hopefully will be able to be addressed to some extent with these dollars.

One of the key examples that I can put forward, of advancing the research work that the Advisory Council has had, would be in relation to the immigration strategy. When this was first proposed there was no mention whatsoever of women immigrants. The Advisory Council sat down with immigrant women and prepared a discussion paper and, now, if you look in the immigration strategy there are probably at least eight mentions of the need for gender analysis in this strategy. So that is one example, but there are many others the Advisory Council does, is called on, the women in local government project, and it's so important - I know you said that we mentioned six out of 52 and we need to start beyond that, but it's very important that we do change the decision making around the table, that it is more representative of the population that we are serving.

In government there is definitely an increased number of women in leadership roles, almost 40 per cent of the top 200 senior positions are now held by women. So it is changing and it's as a result of the statistical analysis and research that is carried out by the Advisory Council on the Status of Women.

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MS. MORE: Thank you, Madam Minister, I feel badly about this because I really did want a good, thorough discussion on some of these issues but, unfortunately, I'm going to have to move across to the Chamber. I just want to close by suggesting that I think that more pressure can be put on Cabinet along this line. I feel that the income and quality of life gaps between men and women in this province are widening and I don't see much evidence of a sensitivity in many of the pieces of legislation and policies that are happening, especially in the Department of Community Services. Poverty rates are much higher for women and their children in this province.

[2:45 p.m.]

I would like to see the Advisory Council speaking out more loudly on issues such as stable funding for transition houses and women's centres. I would like to see you pushing your Cabinet colleagues for a well-thought-out and coordinated strategy to alleviate poverty in this province. I'm just going to leave those ideas with you. I want to say that I do respect the work of the council, but there are so many women and children depending on you voicing their concerns and their needs. I just feel that more attention has to be given to the advocacy role for the council. Thank you.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I would just like to add that on behalf and working with the Advisory Council last year we were able to secure an additional $10,000 for each one of the transition houses, women's centres and men's intervention centres across the province, which was a welcome addition to their budgets.

MS. MORE: I'm sure it was but it was a one-term grant and it doesn't help their long-term stability, so that's something that needs to be looked at. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Dartmouth North.

MR. JERRY PYE: Mr. Chairman, first I want to thank my honourable colleague, the member for Cape Breton Nova, for giving me the opportunity to pose some questions to the Minister of Human Resources.

Madam Minister, I know that you were elected in 2003 and I do know that it was a quick learning curve and you have done some tremendous work during your period of time as the Minister of Human Resources. I do know that we first had the opportunity to talk about the very issue that I'm going to bring up in your first portfolio of the 2004 budget estimates. The area I'm going to talk around is with respect to employment opportunities for disabled persons.

I do know that you have Charlie MacDonald present, who is the Diversity Management Consultant for government and I want to say, welcome aboard to Charlie as well because Charlie and I have had some conversations - not a whole lot of conversations -

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during my seven years in provincial government. I do want to say to Charlie that he had done a tremendous job as the Executive Director of the Disabled Persons Commission for the period of time that he had been there. Charlie knows that I have talked to him on disabled issues during his term as the executive director.

Madam Minister, if I can look at this in a very objective way and yet in a way that I feel that we, as a government - and that includes myself as a member of the Opposition - can bring to the forefront the issues that are facing disabled persons in this province, particularly around your portfolio of employment opportunities, then I think that it's very important for myself to do that and I know that you will respond and provide me with the kinds of answers that might give me some hope that your government is doing the right thing or going in that direction of providing initiatives.

Depending on how you look at it, there's not a clarity, I don't think, and even in the disabled community with respect to the percentage of the number of disabled persons in the Province of Nova Scotia. We can say that approximately 21 per cent to 25 per cent of Nova Scotia's population have varying degrees of disabilities, and I think that would be fair to say. Madam Minister, I think you would acknowledge that. Not only is this important that they don't only live in urban parts of Nova Scotia, they also live in rural parts of Nova Scotia and often without opportunities for employment because simply, the employment opportunities may not be there.

First of all I want to go to an issue that was recently in the newspaper, which seemed to be somewhat startling to me and I do know, Madam Minister, you have been apprised of this issue and you probably have taken some steps or measures to address this issue. I don't often bring names of individuals, as you know, either in the Legislature or to budget estimates, but this particular name has been identified and I think the name is Mr. Tupper. He actually had been employed with the government for approximately 12 years in maybe one or more departments of government, prior to there being a phasing out of the work performed by that individual in the department that he was last employed.

As a result of that he has been unemployed and actually his employment insurance had been exhausted and he was seeking opportunities for employment within government. My question to you, Madam Minister, is, has this issue been addressed or is it still ongoing and how prevalent are these kinds of issues within government?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I would like to start by saying that I hope to be able to champion the issue of diversity and affirmative action within the Public Service. Having said that there are a lot of initiatives that we have started to roll out this year, very good initiatives, definitely welcomed the addition of Charlie to the department. He is a welcome asset and he will bring a lot of knowledge to this area.

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We have definitely accomplished a lot over the past year and are working to develop and make sure that departments have affirmative action plans in place and agencies, boards and commissions are up to speed with where they should be. We will be working directly with departments to see to it that they have all the information to get their plans up and running.

On the subject matter of Mr. Tupper, I did meet with Mr. Tupper and there is an outgoing grievance there. What I can say is I'm very optimistic that we will be able to resolve that but again, it is a grievance and I will have to leave the issue alone at this point.

MR. PYE: Madam Minister, I think that's fair, I guess the outstanding agreement in the case that you didn't mention is between the union that represents the individual and the government department, or your Department of Human Resources, and that's fair. I accept that and I accept that you need to go through that but hopefully, at the end of the day through those negotiations, there will be some positive measure taken by government, if it's at all possible. I don't want to tell you how to do your job because you know how to do that.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: What I will tell you is that the Public Service Commission is working very closely with Mr. Tupper to try to find alternative employment for him at this time.

MR. PYE: I'm pleased to hear that. Now the question is, are there others or have there been others in the same situation as Mr. Tupper, or is this simply an anomaly?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: This is the first situation that has been brought to my attention since I have been minister.

MR. PYE: That's good. Does the government track this kind of employment opportunity or practice? When I say this I'm talking around disabled persons so maybe if I don't use those words in every one of my questions, it is implied that I am referring to disabled persons. Has the government done any tracking with respect to disabled persons who have left the employ of the government because departments have either closed down, or their services are no longer available in that department because of no longer providing that service? What action has the government taken with respect to seeking other employment opportunities across departments?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: At this point I'm not aware of any tracking that goes on. What we do is keep a running total of the percentage of the population that is employed with the Province of Nova Scotia. We do realize that in the area of the disabled there is definitely room for improvement and we will be working with these numbers to see to it that we can increase this. Some of the things that we have ongoing this year - and hopefully ongoing in years to come, provided the budget is approved - is looking at an accommodation fund which will be made available to departments to help accommodate people with disabilities in their

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departments and coming forward. This is a new initiative and one that is welcome within all of government.

MR. PYE: Last year it was a new portfolio for you and you did say you were working towards improving. I've heard exactly the same comment in these budget estimates as well. I'm hoping that with Charlie as Diversity Management Consultant a more proactive measure will be taken and that there can be a speeding up of government's initiative with respect to employing disabled persons in government agencies and departments.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: What the Public Service Commission has done is revitalize its affirmative action casual inventory diversity poll, as it works with all government departments to maintain their staffing needs with interested and qualified diversity candidates. Some 61 requests have resulted in 22 new hires and this is in the last year, since September, actually, so this is good news that these people are being placed within government - recognizing that is casual but it's also a step forward.

Something else we have initiated is a valuing diversity round table, which is made up of different government departments sitting around a table and moving the issue of diversity onto the floor, and forward. When I speak of diversity, I speak of the broader sense but definitely including disabled persons.

MR. PYE: Thank you, Madam Minister, that's exactly what I was going to say, the definition of diversity has broadened its scope. I think it's important to recognize there are individuals of diversity who might very well get better opportunities of employment than other individuals within that diversity definition.

I neglected to make comments that I think are very important. I want to commend the Human Rights Commission, particularly Mayann Francis, on the workplace diversity program that, in fact, the Human Rights Commission has brought forward. I just happened to have attended a recognition of workplace diversity that was presented to the Convergys call centre by the Human Rights Commission a few months back. I want you to know that that is, in itself, one of the positive directions. I'm hoping that is a result of your Diversity Management Consultant, Charlie MacDonald, and your department, and working closely with the Human Rights Commission.

I also want to say - and I do forget the actual title - the Halifax Business Commission that was recently formed, recognized the Casino Nova Scotia Hotel, with respect to its employment opportunities for persons with disabilities. I want to say that that, in itself, is something I haven't seen in my seven years of being in this Legislative Chamber. I do want to say this is the kind of thing that sends a positive signal. If your government or your department has had any role to play in that, I want to thank you. I do want to hear any further comments with respect to that kind of direction.

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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We are part of that committee, the Public Service Commission does have representation there. We will be working closely with advancing diversity for all Nova Scotians. One thing is that a diversity action plan is being finalized now that will provide direction and initiative for government over the next three years. From where we were last year to where we are today, there has been considerable progress made within the Public Service. I really think that people like Charlie, and the department, need to be highly commended on moving this forward as we have. Again, we are not where we should be, we recognize that. We're going to continue to work and improve so that we will be representative, at least, of the population we serve.

[3:00 p.m.]

MR. PYE: Madam Minister, I'm wondering if your department is committed or would commit itself to doing an annual review on how progressive your government has been in achieving employment opportunities for disabled persons. When I say that I mean within government proper because I'm going to be asking questions later.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, we will absolutely commit to doing that.

MR. PYE: So we can see and track the progressive movement of your government.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: With the hiring of a diversity adviser we're able to do a lot more tracking and so on than we have in the past. These statistics will all be made available.

MR. PYE: There's not a need for names, of course, it's just a matter of numbers. I'm wondering how closely the Diversity Management Consultant works with the Disabled Persons Commission, and if, in fact, a number of recommendations that have come through the Disabled Persons Commission, if your government keeps a report card on exactly how many of those recommendations government has supported and/or endorsed. Also, is it possible to receive some sort of update on where your government is in relation to its connect with the Disabled Persons Commission and the recommendations that it has completed?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The valuing diversity round table that I mentioned, that was set up with members representative of all key departments, agencies, boards and commissions, there is representation from the NSGEU, CUPE, the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs, the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, and the Disabled Persons Commission and they all sit at the table. We are working very closely with the Disabled Persons Commission.

MR. PYE: I guess the other question I asked and you didn't respond to was, have you given yourself a report card or checklist, or some form of saying, this is what government has supported with respect to the recommendations from the Disabled Persons Commission

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and/or any other disabled agency out there that has asked government for recommendations around employment opportunities?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Disabled Persons Commission, as far as a checklist, I'm not sure what they would do on their own. I know their concerns are advanced at the table and we will continue to advance their concerns. As far as a checklist on their part, I would have no idea what they keep, but I do know that their input is definitely welcome at the table.

MR. PYE: I would say that that would similarly apply to eight other disabled agencies outside of government that make recommendations to the government, that you would assume that would be their responsibility to keep a record of government's commitment to their recommendations as well.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Absolutely. We will be partnering with community organizations to advance these same concerns and issues on diversity.

MR. PYE: Again, Madam Minister, another important issue that I brought to your attention last year, I would like an update with respect to how your government is doing in the business of contracts. As you know, governments do contracts with private firms and businesses all across the province. Many of those contracts that are tendered out usually imply that the government is an equal opportunity employer and that it recognizes the importance of diversity.

I guess I would ask you, do you do a follow-up, or is there a commitment by government that when a contract is tendered that there will be a number of employment opportunities for persons with disabilities, if you can or even if you could do something of that nature through your department via policy, or if in fact there is just simply the basic tracking, and if you have noticed an increase, in those businesses and firms doing business with government, in the hiring of persons with disabilities, or even, I would go so far, Madam Minister, to our earlier conversation, with respect to employment diversity?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: What I can say is there has been discussion with the Black construction industry, it's really a procurement issue, and that would fall with OED or the Department of Transportation and Public Works, but it's something that, again, as a department and representing the Public Service, we definitely would like to see it representative of the population that we're serving.

MR. PYE: I guess since we do have a Diversity Management Consultant in Charlie - and I don't want to place any more responsibility on Charlie than I think should be placed on him, but I do believe that within his department he would be able to do the tracking of businesses and/or firms or companies that do contracts with government, and actually do some tracking as to the number of individuals who are in fact hired who might fit into that

[Page 503]

diversity definition. I think that that's important so that we recognize that when we continue to do business with individual firms that we're going to make sure that in fact there are employment opportunities for persons under that diversity definition.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, the tracking of the businesses is something that provided the business has self-identified and we were aware of that, it would be something maybe we could track from that perspective, but they would have to be self-identifying as well.

MR. PYE: Madam Minister, I think you can develop policy that will allow that to happen, and you can do that internally. I don't think you need to rely upon people doing business, firms, businesses or companies doing business with government to self-identify their diversity program, because often if you leave it to them, you would not be able to know just exactly how many opportunities are available to persons with disabilities or how many persons, in the definition of diversity, who have made application for employment opportunities with those businesses doing business with government, and have not had the opportunity to get employment.

Now I do know that this applies to all people who are employed. Of course you have to meet the qualifications of the employment opportunity, but having said that there are opportunities for your government to develop policy around this very issue.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There is an interdepartmental committee that currently does look at affirmative procurement at this point in time. In general this is a very good recommendation that you bring forward and something that we probably could be working and should be working with the contractors out there to see the employment agencies that are out there. I think that it's a good recommendation that you're putting forward and something that we can check into to see if it's possible to do.

MR. PYE: Well, I'm delighted to hear that, Madam Minister, because I think that if in fact you recognize that it's something that may take some resources but it's doable, and if it's doable, then it's in the right direction to making sure that we as a government give opportunities to those people who are less likely to have those opportunities of employment. You and I both know that that is a tremendous opportunity to provide direction to those individuals who can then turn around and have some independence of their own and create a life of their own through that independence, without relying upon government.

I want to say to you that I did hear you say earlier that there are initiatives and plans that are coming to the fore, some of them may be up and running. As a matter of fact, your quote said that there are plans up and running now. I'm wondering, can you elaborate on what some of those plans are, and if in fact those plans are readily known to the disabled community?

[Page 504]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Well, two of the things that I've already mentioned are the accommodation fund, which will be available to departments so that if they need to make workplace adaptation to accommodate a person with disability, it will be there for them to tap into this pool; and, also, the diversity talent pool, which I mentioned, with casuals and the placements that we've already been very successful on. Departments will continue to work together at the round table, and this is an initiative that has been put forward at this point in time.

The corporate HR plan includes a goal, and this is one of five goals, it addresses the need to achieve a diverse workforce. This is something - like I said, out of five goals - we've made a priority for this to be one of those. We're very serious and very committed to seeing this through.

MR. PYE: I'm delighted to hear that. Another question is can you tell me how closely the Department of Human Resources works with the Ministry of Community Services? I know that I normally ask a number of questions around employment opportunity to the Minister of Community Services for persons with disabilities. I want to know what the interrelationship is between Human Resources and the Department of Community Services. Is it a good working relationship, and how does it work?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We have been communicating regularly and working with them on the Employment Support Program. The Department of Community Services is also a member of that round table that I mentioned earlier, and a very active member, as other key departments are, also. We will continue to have ongoing talks and information exchange with that department.

MR. PYE: I'm just trying to get clarity, what kind of ongoing talks occur with that department?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Two of the things, Essential Skills Initiative, we've been working with the Department of Community Services on, and also the Labour Market Agreement for Persons with Disabilities. So those are two areas where we're currently working with the Department of Community Services.

[3:15 p.m.]

MR. PYE: This is another question, and I don't suppose that it's within your domain to do so, but do you recommend to the Department of Community Services with respect to funding programs to disabled persons so that they can get those employment opportunities that your ministry is responsible for?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Department of Community Services works with disabled persons in the community, whereas the Department of Human Resources helps

[Page 505]

disabled persons find meaningful work within the Public Service. Now they do work hand in hand on different initiatives that would be there that would be similar in nature, but it's representing two different communities at the same time.

MR. PYE: I think I get some clarity with respect to what you're saying, I'm not sure that I get the total clarity because . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: As far as the Department of Human Resources making recommendations to the Department of Community Services for people in the general community, I would say no, that would come under the umbrella of the Department of Community Services.

MR. PYE: Absolutely. I'm just talking about making recommendations with respect to employment opportunities, and that's all I had been referring to.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: What we do is work with the department on their affirmative action plan to make sure that they do have one.

MR. PYE: That's at least a positive note. The other question is, and you actually touched base on it as well, with respect to agencies, boards and commissions, and making sure that your agencies, boards and commissions are comprised of persons in that category of diversity. I'm wondering if you, Madam Minister, can tell me how many disabled persons serve on agencies, boards and commissions of government today, and what is your objective to improve or increase disabled persons serving on agencies, boards and commissions?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: At this point in time I cannot tell you what that number is for agencies, boards and commissions. I can tell you that across government, the percentage in the Public Service right now for disabled persons is 5.3 per cent.

MR. PYE: It hasn't moved much.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, it hasn't, but again this is something that we definitely are working to change, and we want to be representative of the population that we serve. We've identified that we've made great strides in some areas and there's still a lot of room for progress in others, and we will continue to work towards these goals.

MR. PYE: Can you give me assurances that you will look at the numbers of disabled persons who are serving on agencies, boards and commissions now, and what your objective is to improve that? The reason why I say this is that even though there may not be employment opportunities with respect to individuals being employed within government, they certainly are an integral part of all communities, and they certainly can serve on agencies, boards and commissions. It might very well be the Workers' Compensation Board,

[Page 506]

it might be the Police Commission, it might be any society at all, the health boards or whatever. It may be a whole host of those things.

Disabled individuals are an integral part of all of our communities. They all play intricate roles and, as well, are employed in different levels of employment within our communities. They all come from varying degrees of backgrounds. I think that it's important to recognize that we need to establish, now, that they will be and can be given the opportunity to serve on those agencies, boards and commissions.

Quite often I hear from the community, and I don't know if the Diversity Management Consultant can say the same thing, that often they are not given the opportunity to serve on boards and commissions. Maybe that's through some fault of themselves, because they don't make application because they feel that they may not get the opportunity to serve on that commission. If that is the case, then there needs to be some education and some connect with the disabled community, making sure that they are aware that agencies, boards and commissions are open to them as participants as well, and they should make application to those agencies, boards and commissions in which they have an interest.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: With the addition of a diversity adviser within the last few months here, we've been working with government departments to ensure that government departments and agencies, boards and commissions have an affirmative action plan in place for the next three years. Part of their affirmative action plan should definitely include the disabled community, and it's up to those individuals to self-identify. It's sometimes difficult to track the numbers when people are not self-identifying. That's a message that we really need to get out to government and to all agencies, boards and commissions. But, again, we do need to go into the communities and we need to make them aware that, yes, there are agencies, boards and commissions out there that they are eligible to sit on. So we need to be a little more proactive in this.

MR. PYE: I'm pleased to hear you say that in a sense it is up to them to self-identify, but it's also a responsibility of government to know who makes up their community and where those agencies and organizations are, and that government make available every opportunity to inform them of the interworkings of government and what government is prepared to do for their community.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, through the affirmative action plans that agencies, boards and commissions have put in place, we're hopeful that this will be carried out.

MR. PYE: I want to go to another area, and that's around seniors' employment. As you know, I don't know if government has a policy whereby when one reaches the age of 65 they are required to leave their employ with government, obviously that is to mean that they are to retire from government. I do know that some of this might be limitations around contract agreements with unions, as well, and I don't know where it relates in the Civil

[Page 507]

Service. I do want to ask you, with seniors finding themselves living longer, being much healthier, continuing to be very active and finding themselves in excellent health, and do not want to leave their employment, is there a policy or a program in government that allows them to continue beyond their 65^th birthday?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Part of the Public Service Superannuation Act, civil servants can work beyond 65 now. That was part of a piece of legislation that was passed last year. So, yes, they are eligible to work beyond age 65.

MR. PYE: Does that also apply to union contracts with government employees, or are they restricted to the language of the contract?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There is no mandatory retirement in any of the collective agreements.

MR. PYE: Very good. That goes to show that I haven't been following up on that. (Laughter)

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Part of the diversity plan, age is one of the determinants of the affirmative action plan, as disabled persons would be and so on. We cannot discriminate based on age.

MR. PYE: That's good to hear. Madam Minister, I want to thank you for your comments, I may be back at another time during your estimates. I do want to thank, once again, my colleague, the member for Cape Breton Nova. Mr. Chairman, I would like to turn over the remaining time to the honourable member for Cape Breton Nova.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cape Breton Nova.

MR. GORDON GOSSE: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for being here today and also, as time is going by and we have lots of questions, I'm just going to be brief. I would like to know the average age of the people working in the Public Service Commission. How many people are due to retire in the next five years?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The average age within the Civil Service - and that includes management also - is 46 to 47, and 46 per cent of the MCP group is eligible to retire in the next five years.

MR. GOSSE: What is the acronym MCP?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It would be non-unionized employees, Management Compensation Plan.

[Page 508]

MR. GOSSE: I've heard you speak earlier on the diversity plan, the diversity adviser and affirmative action. Since you became minister in 2003, how many people have been hired full-time in the Public Service Commission, people of minorities?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Since what year?

MR. GOSSE: Since you became minister, how many people have been hired of minorities with the affirmative action plan? In your speech I thought you said there were 24 casual employees but I was just wondering, have there been any hired on a full-time basis?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There have been but I don't have those tracking statistics here, I have the percentages overall for the year, but some may have left and so on, so it's hard to count that. What I can tell you that we have been tracking is the casual diversity talent pool and 22 new hires have been made since September, out of 61 individuals in that pool.

MR. GOSSE: These are casual, there are no full-time?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We know that out of the 22, two or three of these individuals have moved on to full-time employment within the Civil Service.

MR. GOSSE: Is there any way I would be able to get a copy of how many people have moved on to full-time?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, we can get you those numbers.

MR. GOSSE: Thank you very much. Now I'll go on to my next point, and this is a contentious issue for me, the Civil Service regulations and the policies put in place. I wanted to bring to the attention of the minister that the Public Service Commission's own employee survey conducted earlier this year reported that less than 46 per cent of respondents felt that they could report their concerns about their ethical dilemmas or their conflicts, for fear of reprisals, and this is less than half. I just want to know how the minister feels. Do you feel that the regulations and policies put in place last September are working at this time?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, the government developed regulations last September to protect employees and clarify both the rights and obligations of employees and the employer in disclosing wrongdoing. It was put in place and we said after six to eight months we definitely would review the process and allow the internal process to make sure we have the statistics and so on. We have put procedures in place so that there will be clear reporting on how many disclosures and so on have been made over this course. The Ombudsman needs to report to the commission within three months after the fiscal year end. Department heads need to report to their deputies and deputies on to the commission as well. So right now we are in the gathering of this information stage, to put together to see how this process is working.

[Page 509]

[3:30 p.m.]

MR. GOSSE: I would just share a little bit of my information with you on the Ombudsman. As of February 1^st, his office has confirmed that he has only received one complaint since these new regulations and policies have been in effect since September. Do you find that that's low?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: To be fair to the process, we have to realize that they have the option of going to the Conflict of Interest Commissioner, to gain advice or go through there to see whether or not they wish to file a disclosure of wrongdoing or at what phase they want to start that. They have the option of starting with their department heads and from the department heads on, if they don't want to go there they can go to their deputy, or to the commission. There are definitely avenues for them to go to. If we've had one individual who felt they needed to go to the Office of the Ombudsman, that is one person who has had the opportunity to do this based on the regulations we have put in place.

MR. GOSSE: I'm just trying to get your feeling. Do you think that the regulations are working?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Until I see the information that is gathered from the department heads and so on, I think that what we have is a very clear process for employees to follow and I believe, yes, the process will work.

MR. GOSSE: This is where I differ on this, and I've said this in the House, as you know, last year, that legislation is needed here. The regulations do not protect the employees. I feel this policy gives the appearance that it's protecting the employees but I feel all it is doing is protecting government, and those are my feelings on the regulations and policies.

In 2003, 27 per cent of Civil Service employees said they witnessed some kind of corruption or unethical behaviour or mistakes and they were afraid to report this, and that was in 2003. Do you find that the reporting has gone up since 2003 until now?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The wording of that question is one that I definitely didn't agree with. When you put "corruption" and the word "mistake" in the same line, the end result could be anywhere from - a mistake is quite a misdemeanour, it's something that alongside "corruption" should be on two separate lines. I don't think you would have seen 27 per cent on that line had "mistake" not been there.

MR. GOSSE: So you'll begin a review yourself, your department is starting a review on this process?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Right now we are gathering the information from the departments and that review will be carried out.

[Page 510]

MR. GOSSE: I just want to know, who's doing the review or how is it being done?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, as I mentioned before, the Ombudsman reports to the commission, and the department heads report to their deputies, and the deputies then report to the commission, and the Public Service Commissioner will file a report to myself.

MR. GOSSE: I'm wondering, when can we expect this report? Is there any timeline for this?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The regulation did call for a report on an annual basis and that will be carried out. Again, we're at the information-gathering stage. The Ombudsman has three months after fiscal year end to file his report.

MR. GOSSE: That would be the fiscal year ending in March, so the regulations would have been in place in September and that would make it one year, so would the annual report be due at the end of the first year in September or October?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The intent is to compile the information we have received from September to year end 2005, and to file a report on that many months' progress.

MR. GOSSE: There's another issue along that. You know my colleague, the honourable member for Cape Breton Centre, has put in a Private Member's Bill, Bill No. 32, for whistleblowers legislation and I think there are other provinces who do have that in legislation. I feel what's going on today in any government office, I'd like to feel that the employees feel that they're protected. I feel that these regulations do not protect the employees. The necessary protection is not there for the employees, I feel. I feel we need some kind of legislation and I did say that and I won't repeat myself again, I've said it enough in the Legislature.

You just said there was a reporting process and I found that a complex way of reporting at so many different stages and so many different people to report to. One of those things you said was when an employee makes a complaint it has to be in written form. When an employee makes a complaint on these rules and regulations it has to be in written form?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: To be formalized, yes, it has to be in writing.

MR. GOSSE: If an employee saw something and the time limit was over a year the employee can only go back one year with that regulation?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The time for the NDP caucus is finished. I will allow the minister to respond to that question.

[Page 511]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It's a year from when the event was brought to their attention. I would like to also say that the Office of the Ombudsman which already has the authority to investigate government activity, the mechanism was already there to use and we had legislation in place that we could use to put these regulations in place.

The other provinces throughout Canada, definitely do have some sort of protection, but most of them have protection - not stand-alone legislation - that is part of other Acts.

MR. GOSSE: Yes, there are three different . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. We can come back to you. We will now turn to the Liberal caucus.

The honourable Leader in the House of the Liberal Party.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Madam Minister, you were talking about the amount of employees eligible for retirement. I believe you gave the MCP number which was the management people. How many total employees are under MCP?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The non-bargaining unit employees are approximately 1,100.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: How many are eligible to retire within five years?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: About 47 per cent.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: That's almost half, so it's about 550 people, is that correct, or just under that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: How many total union employees do you have working for government?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Approximately 5,500 to 6,000.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: How many of those are eligible to retire in five years?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It is 33 per cent of that.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: What plan do you have in place to replace almost half of your total managers who are eligible to retire within the next five years?

[Page 512]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There are a number of plans reflected in our corporate HR plan. One of them is succession management, we have the Leadership Continuity Program and different programs that have been put in place, like I said, as part of this corporate HR plan, recognizing we do have a workforce that is going to retire in the next years to come.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Are you going to be advertising for these replacements on your own or are you going to be seeking an outside agency?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We almost always use our own organization to do our recruitment.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: When do you decide to use an outside organization?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: When it is more cost-efficient to do that. We take that route but try to do our own within, but if it's more cost-effective to go outside, if we can't find the talent within our own, we go outside.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Give me an example of when going outside has been less expensive than doing it on your own.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: An example would be where it would be difficult to find someone in our senior physicians and so on, within the Department of Health.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: In the past fiscal year, how often have you used outside firms to attract or locate employees?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Only one that I'm aware of.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Which one was that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There is one in process now.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Who is that with?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Publicly at this point in time, with the process undergoing, we cannot say that. It's an all-Party search so your Party would be aware of that.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: I can assume what that position is for, I'm just asking who is undertaking that search?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It's jointly with our executive search team and an all-Party committee.

[Page 513]

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Is there an outside agency involved with that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We do not know at this point in time who that outside agency will be.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: So there's no one in place yet?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Other than for that position are you saying that the Government of Nova Scotia through your department has not used any sort of headhunting agency for filling any positions for this province?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That is correct.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Could you tell us, out of the total employees employed by the government - both MCP and unionized - how many of those employees currently offer French-language services?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I cannot give you that information here today but the Office of Acadian Affairs did carry out that study to see what that was across government. They should have those statistics and numbers so that I can get them for you.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: But you're the Minister of Human Resources, technically these people all work under your direction. You don't know how many people offer French-language services in our Civil Service?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: When it was initially carried out it was approximately 3 per cent of the workers that we have that had some level of French-speaking ability.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: How many positions are you aware of in the government right now, of those employees currently employed, to offer French-language services as part of their employment?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The statistics for that at this point I do not have available. There is an interdepartmental committee that is working on that to see what the needs are for French-speaking language across the province. Then we are going to work to see that we can meet the need.

[3:45 p.m.]

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: I'm not really asking about need, I'm asking what is currently being made available?

[Page 514]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, that survey hasn't been carried out by this department, it's something that the Office of Acadian Affairs has been working on in conjunction with some staff from the department.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: But you're not aware of . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'm not aware of what those numbers are.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: In the past year how many positions have been posted that the ability to communicate in French was a requirement?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Each department's CSU-HR would have the ability to go out to the market for employers. I wouldn't be aware of what they had within their criteria when they posted these job listings. It's not information that the Public Service Commission tracks from that perspective.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: That's probably a good reason why Acadian Affairs is having such a hard time getting this information, the fact that your own Department of Human Resources isn't aware of how many employees that we have that are either being hired or currently on the payroll, who can offer French-language services.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I believe the Office of Acadian Affairs is making some great progress in identifying where there are French-speaking employees at this point in time.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Do the departments decide on their own when they hire people or do they give you any sort of notice?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, they do.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: How do they give you notice?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They hire in their own was the answer to that, within their own budget they have approved.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: There's no contact at all as to what other departments are doing when it comes to hiring?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Unless requested for assistance in that hiring.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: So whether the Department of Justice is looking for specific types of employees, things like that, you have no idea what they are doing?

[Page 515]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That would be under the Department of Justice and their CSU-HR that they have in place. Every department has a CSU-Human Resources division.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: So in essence, what you're telling us is that you are not really responsible for the almost 7,000 people who work for the Government of Nova Scotia?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We oversee the overall HR policies but each department is responsible for the hiring of their individual employees.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Of the policies that you are aware of, what policies can you indicate to us today that are being applied to ensure that we have a sufficient amount of people being employed who can offer French-language services?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: With the legislation that was just passed recently and the development of the Office of Acadian Affairs, these are two positive steps forward. Also, we're working to collect the data to determine where the need is across the province, to make sure that we are meeting the needs that Nova Scotians are wanting in their communities.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Right now, is there any current policy in government that encourages the employment of individuals who can offer French-language services to the Province of Nova Scotia?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: When we talked about diversity, one of the concepts of diversity is linguistic diversity also. We do work with the Office of Acadian Affairs, with a recruitment strategy and as we move forward we will recognize the needs that are there and hopefully, we will have the pool in place to be able to do that. As we move forward with this initiative, keeping in mind that the department is new, there's a lot of data to collect before we go out and do the hiring here.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: I'm just curious, what department are you referring to when you say the department is new?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Department of Acadian Affairs.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Apparently, Acadian Affairs was established back in the Buchanan Government time, back in the late 1980s if I'm not mistaken.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The legislation has been new in the last year.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: The legislation for what, French-language services?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: French-language services, yes.

[Page 516]

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: But Acadian Affairs, you realize, has been around for quite some time.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Can you tell us, since you've become minister, how many people have been hired who were hired on the basis that they could offer French-language services as part of their employment?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, it will be based on the department's needs and the community that department is serving as to what is in their application forms when they go out to hire someone. We definitely want to make sure that we're serving the community with the needs they require from government.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: All great to hear. Now, since you've been minister can you indicate to us how many people have been hired to work for the Province of Nova Scotia on the basis they could offer French-language services?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I can't give you that number but what I can do is go back and look at how many application postings there have been that required bilingual services.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Why don't you keep track of those figures on a regular basis?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It's something that the Office of Acadian Affairs will be tracking over the years to come, but it's something that isn't part of our agenda at the current time.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: How many people work under the Department of Human Resources and the Public Service Commission?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: With students included, approximately 112.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Are you aware of how many employees work in the Office of Acadian Affairs?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Approximately five.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Do you not think you would be a bit better suited to keep track of this kind of information with your office than an office that has five employees and has quite a broad mandate to take care of?

[Page 517]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We will be working in conjunction with them again. This initiative is relatively new, it's something that we do want to track, we're gathering the information now, the statistical data, to see how many employees do have the ability to speak French at this point in time and how many need to be upgraded. There have been some courses offered throughout government and we hope to move forward from here.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: If I were to tell you that prior to your election, when Neil LeBlanc used to be minister - and at one point he was minister for your department as well, if I'm not mistaken, he certainly was Minister of Acadian Affairs - he undertook this kind of review quite some time ago. Would you be able to tell us whether you're aware of that review and what happened to it?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: With the Office of Acadian Affairs?

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: It was through the Department of Human Resources and it was basically to do exactly what you just indicated the current review is doing, in essence.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: This is being carried out by the Office of Acadian Affairs. Our role is to provide the support and educational means to meet the demand that will be out there to serve our communities.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Are you aware of a review that was done prior to the last election undertaken by Minister Neil LeBlanc?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, I'm not.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: That's all for my questions. My colleague, the member for Halifax Clayton Park, will have some questions as well.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park.

MS. DIANA WHALEN: It's a pleasure to see you again, Madam Minister, and to be here today. I had a few questions, and I'm glad I was able to catch you because I have to leave later this afternoon. I wasn't sure if the timing would allow it. I think there's always some confusion about your role as the Minister responsible for the Status of Women. So many of the actual funded programs seem to rest within Community Services that actually have to do with women and women's issues, maybe improving the lives of women in our province. I'm not sure that too many of them come under you, but I'd like to explore with you a little bit about the family violence initiatives and perhaps what your department, either through the Public Service Commission or if it's more apt to be through the Status of Women, what you've been able to do, or how you can influence the outcomes.

[Page 518]

It actually came to mind because The ChronicleHerald runs a regular column, which shows headlines from years ago, the 1970s and so on, and there was one in there talking about a study being done on violence against women and the Status of Women, and it sounded so familiar, it could have been today. There has really been no change. I'm wondering, can you talk about any initiative that might be within your power to effect some change in terms of family violence in Nova Scotia?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: As the Advisory Council gathers statistics and information from across Nova Scotia, we definitely recognize the need to be able to get information out there on family violence, and with initiatives we've definitely published different information booklets in relation to this. Education is one of the key determinants in trying to make women more aware of some of the situations and areas.

Now, transition house numbers are put in place, the Advisory Council, there is a 1-800 line to ask all kinds of questions, and women do have that option, to call through to get information. We can usually end up being the centre to where we disperse them out to whichever agency they need to see at that point in time, be it a women's centre, a transition house or whatever.

MS. WHALEN: So the 1-800 line would lead directly to the Advisory Council on the Status of Women for an answer?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, it would.

MS. WHALEN: Are there any records of how many calls of that nature you get?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I can get that information for you. I don't have it here before me, but we can get those.

MS. WHALEN: On behalf of the House, I would like to see that. I wasn't aware of that. It would be interesting to see. If you could provide it for a number of years, that would be good, because it might be a way to track what kind of level of calls we're receiving.

In terms of being able to influence, within your Cabinet, money going to the transition houses or women's centres, are you as the minister, or with the help of the Advisory Council on the Status of Women and their budget and their staff, able to make presentations that would try to urge your Cabinet and government to look at more resources in that way?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The funding for transition houses, women's centres, men's intervention programs definitely falls within the Department of Community Services. I can tell you that issues in relation to women, I do take to the Cabinet Table and support a lot of different initiatives. We were able to have an additional $10,000 to each transition

[Page 519]

house, women's centre and men's intervention centre last year. Also, we were able to maintain the budgets that they have had.

MS. WHALEN: Can I ask, was that $10,000 for each transition house and women's centres, both?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, and men's intervention centres. So all the organizations.

MS. WHALEN: I think there are 26 organizations, is that right?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They all received $10,000.

MS. WHALEN: Was that done when the federal dollars came in through equalization?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, that was additional money that was put forward by the Department of Community Services through their budget. Now I cannot tell you what part of their budget that came from, but it was through the Department of Community Services.

[4:00 p.m.]

MS. WHALEN: And it was done in the Fall?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, it was.

MS. WHALEN: Yes, there was a big flurry of spending announcements in November and December that came from the arrangements both for Health and for the new equalization agreement with the federal government, so I was just wondering if that was the source of the largesse. My concern is, again going back to the targets, and as you say the Advisory Council provides statistics and tracks and can tell us the number of women killed in a given year by partners, the number of women who have had restraining orders and whatever else, women who are under threat. Are we tracking or trying to target, have we made any targets, where we actually want to see that go down?

Clearly we all do, we all wring our hands, we all worry about it, but have we ever said, government needs to say that this really can't go on year after year, and we need to have those go down? Often when you set a target and put a number on it or say that in five years we want that to be zero, then we might get more serious about where we're headed. Has there been any attempt to quantify? How soon are we going to alleviate this problem?

[Page 520]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, that would be a Department of Community Services' question. What I can say is one is too many.

MS. WHALEN: I agree with you.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: And that any commitment, and the commitment that was put forward to maintain the funding to transition houses and women's centres across the province is a step forward. There has been no reduced funding in the department whatsoever to these organizations. We'll continue to work with them to hopefully reduce the numbers of incidents within the province.

MS. WHALEN: I know that you share my admiration for the work that they're doing, I do know that. They're doing a tremendous amount for the women, and in fact families, of Nova Scotia. But staying at the same budget for many years is making it nearly impossible for them to keep doing the same amount of work. If we look, just alone, at electricity costs, they just went up 6 per cent under the Utility and Review Board process. So as their costs continue to rise, and their budgets are pretty flatlined, it's really difficult. I understand the budget this year provided another $250,000, but there are 26 groups that have to split up that pie, so it won't be very much. They're almost left to fight over it themselves. I don't think it was determined how that's going to be divided up.

I guess I want it to be on the record, having raised with you the issue that they certainly need more funding. I will make sure the Minister of Community Services has that same message. I think that they're doing so much. If we tried to do the work that they're doing within the Public Service, if we tried to make it a government function, it would cost us an awful lot more. These are people who do it because of their calling or their mission. I think we all acknowledge that they're doing something that we couldn't replicate, certainly for the same amount of money. So I'd like to sort of flag that. Could you tell me how many people work in the Advisory Council?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'd like to start by thanking you for acknowledging the fine work that transition houses do across this province, because they do just that. I also want to thank you for becoming part of a women's caucus that we have formed within government to discuss issues that affect all women across this province. I'm hopeful that we will be able to meet more regularly than we have in the past, that hopefully on a monthly basis we can get together. I believe that we can accomplish some good things through this voice. Right now the Advisory Council has 7.8 FTEs and one Summer student.

MS. WHALEN: Has there ever been any discussion about taking the programs, like men's intervention, transition houses and women's centres, and bringing them under the auspices of the Minister responsible for the Status of Women? Has that model ever been considered?

[Page 521]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: To my knowledge, no, not in my time. I'm not aware of anything at this point.

MS. WHALEN: I guess I'm raising it today, and I know there are people here from the Advisory Council office as well, but I think it would have a much stronger advocate if it came under the Minister responsible for the Status of Women, because those programs exist to sponsor and basically help women out of cycles of poverty and out of cycles of violence that are preventing them from thriving in our province. We're losing so many good people as a result. I think that it might make a lot of sense to have the programs that are designed to actually target and do something about it, those front-line programs, to be under your direction.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Advisory Council has been set up to advise and definitely put forward statistical information on different issues that pertain to women. Where the body falls is within the Department of Community Services currently, and the Status of Women, again, is meant to be an advisory group, to advise government on issues pertaining to women's issues.

MS. WHALEN: Would you describe the Advisory Council in any way as being arm's-length from your department? What's the relationship between you as minister and the Advisory Council on the Status of Women?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We have a very close relationship; I wouldn't go so far as to even say they were arm's-length. We sit at the table together, and we discuss numerous topics. I'm briefed on a regular basis with everything that is going on within the Status of Women, but council members are independent. And when they do meet, they do have an independent board that sits and meets, and I am briefed then by the executive director on what goes on within.

MS. WHALEN: Are the Advisory Council employees public servants in the same way as any department would be?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MS. WHALEN: But they report . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Not the board members, but the staff.

MS. WHALEN: The reason I ask is the governance model is different, where you actually have a separate board and in many ways one would think you're not part of government in that regard, and yet they report to a minister and so on. My comments, really, on the Advisory Council, you say that they report on issues that pertain to women, but I'm

[Page 522]

wondering, does the Advisory Council do any kind of review of legislation that's going through the government to see where there are impacts on women?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Absolutely. One that I spoke about earlier was in relation to the immigration strategy. When that was originally proposed, there was no mention whatsoever about women immigrants. Through the executive director, Brigitte Neumann, and immigrant women, they were able to put together a discussion paper and put it forward. The need for gender analysis is now part of the immigration strategy. It's mentioned in there, somewhere around eight times. So it came from not being in there at all to being in there quite a bit. Other initiatives would be the minimum wage initiative, and the HIV/AIDS initiative that we definitely have taken back to government.

MS. WHALEN: That's encouraging. In Newfoundland and Labrador, I don't know if the minister is aware, but they have a person within government, probably, I'm guessing, in the Public Service Commission, whose sole job, actually, is to evaluate legislation and see the impacts on women. They may do some other things, I shouldn't say it's their sole job, that would be a lot, wouldn't it. If they sit as often as we do, it would not keep them very busy. Any legislation that's passed is put through a review, basically screened through, to see whether there are impacts on women.

The issue I had in mind was from last year when we passed legislation on auto insurance. Although that said it was taking out gender as an issue in insurance, that would benefit some but it would actually lead to the increase in all women's insurance costs. Young women pay a lot less than young men; women throughout their middle years also have lower rates, it correlates to their risk level; the same thing with older women. So by saying that this was going to be more fair, it actually meant that women, who on average earn less money, significantly less money as the Advisory Council could tell us, those women would then be paying a higher share of the insurance costs. I never heard anybody in government or anywhere else - I didn't hear any discussion paper or anything that pointed out the impact on women from that legislation.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The issue, in relation to insurance, definitely was raised, and I can say that anyone who understands the insurance industry would realize that in order to bring them to paying or being equal when they get their insurance that it would definitely raise women's insurance rates and lower men's, coming in. That was raised by the Advisory Council.

MS. WHALEN: Is there any discussion paper that was ever prepared or speaking notes or points?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, I'm not aware (Interruptions) There was a letter that was provided directly to the insurance industry by the executive director.

[Page 523]

MS. WHALEN: Would it be possible for myself or others, maybe both caucuses, to get a copy of that letter?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MS. WHALEN: I would like to ask for that, if I could, at your convenience.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: And there are different times when the members of the board send letters off to government departments in relation to different topic matters, in relation to seniors and gambling and different things, where they feel there is a direct impact to women in this province, but at different times those letters go directly to the department responsible.

MS. WHALEN: I would like to suggest that perhaps it become an instruction to the Advisory Council that maybe every law gets looked at. There may be some that have implications we haven't considered, and they may be aware of some but maybe not all. So perhaps it could just be a general thing that all bills that are tabled, certainly the ones that are moving through, not the ones that are tabled but the ones that are being seriously considered, that they be examined. I think that would give a level of assurance to all of us and yourself as the Minister responsible for the Status of Women. If I was in your position, I would certainly want to know that.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'll definitely take that under advisement. The dollars associated with the amount of staff increase that that would probably take to do, I know that our Advisory Council right now works very hard to accomplish what they accomplish with the staff they have.

MS. WHALEN: Maybe there's somewhere else it could be done. Perhaps you could arrange to look and see if someone within another department, perhaps the Department of Justice or somewhere where there are lawyers or people who could do that on a regular basis.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: When legislation is brought forward, it does go through that type of evaluation by the Justice Department.

MS. WHALEN: A gender evaluation? I don't think they would be looking at it from a gender point of view.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That I will find out for you.

MS. WHALEN: If they do, I would be happy to hear that. I just think sometimes there are surprising outcomes that can be negative to women, and that we should be aware of them as legislation passes. Then we have to weigh the pros and the cons. I just think that's important.

[Page 524]

I wanted to ask you - I'll go off this issue for a bit and we'll go to something else - about the looming crisis in our declining population and our ever-larger number of people retiring and becoming seniors. I'm wondering about your program in place to hire young people. I know last year we talked about this at estimates, that there is a government program to hire people right out of university.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That would be the Career Starts program, and what we have done is go from a 49-week casual position to a two-year term position. That's what we have done over the course of the last year. Right now, of the 84 graduates of the program, 13 are now full-time employees, 21 have been hired on a part-time or casual basis, but what this means for the new hires coming in is that they're already members of the bargaining unit, so they can apply for those jobs within. So it's definitely a step in the right direction that we are turning over 16 - we will be - a year. It's a two-year program.

MS. WHALEN: It has been running for a number of years, so the total number . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It has been running for a number of years, but it has been a 49-week casual program. With the implementation of it being a two-year term, again, it allows these graduates to become members of the bargaining unit. They can apply for a lot more positions within the Civil Service.

MS. WHALEN: I think that's positive. Did you just make that change this year, or was that previous?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Last September is when that was made.

MS. WHALEN: So it is within this year. It sounds like a positive change, as well. I think that's good. With the 84, when you use that figure, are you looking at the people from the time this was first begun, when it was still the 49-week casual?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, we are.

MS. WHALEN: So it has been quite a number of years, but we're still at 16 every year, though. Is there any move to increase the number?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: In 1999, it was a commitment of this government to double that, and it went from eight to 16 at that point. I would definitely like to see this number rise. I think that it's necessary in order to obtain the objectives that we will need to obtain with our HR policy, to meet the increasing number of people who are eligible to retire in the next five to 10 years.

MS. WHALEN: I'd like to add my voice to that as well. I think it should be increased. I'm sure that your numbers show, and you would be charting, the number that are

[Page 525]

about to retire, the holes that we're going to have in terms of our staffing. Last year we talked some about the difficulty in creating a work environment that will actually encourage young people to come in and work for government. There's certain shifts in culture and shifts in the way we do business in order to make it a challenging place for young people to come in and work. I do believe that within your Public Service Commission you have people who are looking at that. I hope you have some researchers and people who are looking for good programs. Maybe you could talk about it, if there's one or two programs of that nature.

[4:15 p.m.]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess with the whole issue of affirmative action, one of the key determinants of diversity is age. We definitely want to be a workplace that is representative of all age groups. This is something that we will be working towards. Some statistics that I will throw out there are that 72 per cent of the population that we have working for us is over the age of 40, and 46 per cent are eligible to retire in the next five years. So those are big numbers. We definitely recognize the need in management and so on. Succession management, there are programs out there with leadership continuity to make sure that we identify these individuals who are here, to make sure they're trained and ready to move up into these roles as people retire in the years to come.

MS. WHALEN: I think your figures alone, 72 per cent of the workers over 40 years of age, that signals a crisis, really, that's looming, and even more so with the number who are almost eligible to retire. It's a problem for business as well, and a problem throughout our province. I think it is really important that some innovative plans be put in place now and that among your staff there's some research being done about what can be done to make it an environment in which young people would choose to come here to work.

We're heading into a time when human resources will become perhaps the most important role in government and business, not one of those sort of sidebars to what's happening. The reason is that if you can't attract and retain good people, you won't be able to continue doing good work. We know business is already expecting that, they're starting to add a lot of incentives and a lot of different changes in their work environment that will make it more attractive.

So with that in mind, I wanted to ask you, have there been any surveys of the work environment in this last year, anything on the climate of the work environment throughout government?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, there has. There was a sample carried out. Last year when we did our employee survey, we said that we would come back in three to four years and do another big survey, a major survey across government, we would sample the employees this year to do a mini-survey. That has been carried out. It was carried out in February, and the response rate was 53 per cent overall. Every department surpassed the

[Page 526]

target of a 30 per cent response rate, and some departments were as high as 60 per cent. The survey is going well, demonstrating employees' desire to participate in a positive work experience. We will be looking to see those results and work from them. This will be our measure to progress that we are making within the HR community.

Something that I would like to touch on is the corporate HR plan that we are working towards. It will provide the strategies to move forward to address the issue of our shrinking workforce.

MS. WHALEN: What's the timeframe for that plan? When will it be ready and unveiled?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The end of June is the official rollout, keeping in mind we're already implementing part of it in diversity and so on, our affirmative action plans and so on. We're working within that now, but the official rollout will be in June, for the corporate HR plan, subject to budget approval.

MS. WHALEN: How much is budgeted for that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It's $1.8 million.

MS. WHALEN: Why is it so much? What does it entail? I expected about $50,000 or something . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Quite a few staff.

MS. WHALEN: There's more to this. I was just taken aback. Could you just give me the highlights?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The programming costs, the Career Assignment Program, $179,000; Leadership Continuity Program, $245,000; succession management, $720,000; human resource strategies for professional groups, $110,000; learning organization strategy, $120,000; and diversity strategy accommodation fund, and this was something that I spoke about before, which was a fund to enable departments to have a pool of money so that if they hired somebody from the disabled community and they need to make improvements or renovations to their department to accommodate this individual, they could tap into this money to do that, but there are a number of initiatives that are out there . . .

MS. WHALEN: Is it premature for me to have a copy of what's involved in the HR plan? I'm thinking of those components and the money associated with it, because that is part of the budget.

[Page 527]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I can get you a copy on an informal basis as to some of the breakdowns of the HR plan, but the official rollout will be in June.

MS. WHALEN: That would be good. So it's subject to some changes, perhaps. You talked about having 112 people right now in the Public Service Commission, will that grow with all this money being pumped into extra research?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That is the anticipated staffing level for this year. That would include . . .

MS. WHALEN: So that 112 is above your staffing level right now.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MS. WHALEN: What's your current staffing level?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: At the end of 2004-05, it was 85.5 FTEs, and the estimate for 2005-06 is 112.5 FTEs.

MS. WHALEN: So that's quite a significant increase. What's the percentage increase in your budget this year? Just your total budget for the Public Service Commission.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It's 53 per cent.

MS. WHALEN: That's interesting, I'll take note. Can you give me the round figures, what it was last year, what it will be? I'm sorry, I don't have my Estimates Book here.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, it's an increase of $2.94 million. Last year was $4.863 million, and the estimate for this year is $7.482 million.

MS. WHALEN: Can you give me the basic reason why that's going up? We've talked about $1.8 million, this big corporate HR plan, which sounds like it is needed. I've been asking you about what you're doing for the looming crisis, and you've got a plan here, which is good. But there's more than $1.8 million there. Why such a jump in one year?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The variance is $2.6 million.

MS. WHALEN: So you have $1.8 million more to go.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Two benefits officer positions have been transferred from Finance to the Public Service Commission, which is $91,000. The Career Starts - and that was going to the two-year program - is another $207,000 of that. There's the Orientation Program, $45,000.

[Page 528]

MS. WHALEN: They should have called this the Public Service Commission budget, don't you think? (Laughter) A 53 per cent increase is good.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The cost of not doing is much more than the cost of doing when you look at HR and where we're going in the years to come. It's definitely the time that it needs to be addressed, and it will be a very progressive agenda to do that.

MS. WHALEN: I don't disagree with you. I think we have to look after the planning, as you say, for all of those areas, succession, new people coming in, career management, just looking after our workforce, keeping them healthy and well.

I have to ask you today, now that I've just thought of that, it wasn't written down, why the department has not come up with an arrangement to support the public employees for the discounts on club memberships. I had made a call during the year to somebody in your organization, and I've talked to the minister as well, just in passing. I really feel this is something. If I have a friend who works at the IWK and she gets a discount to join a health club, and a person who works for the Public Service Commission and they don't, and we have 7,000 employees, a good number of them here in HRM, I really do feel somebody should be lobbying and saying, what's wrong, why haven't we taken an initiative?

We've talked a lot about Health Promotion, I know that's a big emphasis of the government. Mr. Chairman would know that as well. Health Promotion is a major emphasis. So we should walk the walk, shouldn't we? It's not just talk. I think the people who work for the government should have a discount at health clubs. The Capital Health District has it, the IWK has it, government employees don't have it. She doesn't have an answer yet, but it's coming.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: One year ago, we sent out an expression of interest to organizations across the province in relation to gyms and memberships and corporate rates. What we received back was four organizations responding to us that would be willing to offer a discount, a corporate rate. We have let employees know who they are, but there were some that didn't respond and they were some of the groups that you definitely had mentioned to me, that didn't respond back with a corporate rate.

MS. WHALEN: If you heard from employees that they wanted the corporate rate at those places, would we take the initiative and contact them?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Some of the larger organizations in the province have memberships available, but they need to pertain to all government employees. It's not optional to that employee. So it would be a direct payment off of their paycheque, and not everyone is willing to buy into that. So departments are looking individually and trying to contact some of these organizations to see what they can arrange.

[Page 529]

MS. WHALEN: Again, and I don't think we want to belabour the point, because I think having talked to you earlier you have heard me, but I just think it would make more sense if it were done centrally rather than individual departments - oh, if you work for the Department of Energy you can have a discount, but you work for the Department of Education so you don't get it. It's just not right.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I agree with you on this topic. There should be an organization out there that would be willing to take on an organization as large as what this one is with a corporate rate, and something that is more readily available to the whole province than organizations that are only located here in HRM. It needs to be an organization that is located throughout the province, if we want to see all of our employees have the option available to them.

MS. WHALEN: Are there any other plans from your department about health and wellness for our own employees? We have the Minister of Health Promotion, and we're doing advertising and making brochures and coming up with programs for communities, but what are we doing for our own employees to ensure that they have a balance in their lives and that they're maintaining their health and fitness? This is one component, making fitness more affordable, but what else are we doing?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: One of the areas that we're moving forward in is the healthy workplace advisory committee, where we're working with government departments to build internal capacity here.

[4:30 p.m.]

MS. WHALEN: Can you define building internal capacity?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Educating people on what a healthy lifestyle is. One of the programs that we launched this Spring, with the Department of Justice, in partnership with several organizations is a pilot project called the Healthy Workplace Project, which will define a comprehensive corporate healthy workplace program that includes program design, implementation and evaluation over a four-year period, potentially affecting 800 Department of Justice employees across the province. I know that I've had the opportunity to speak to some of these employees in my own home constituency, and they're very excited about the initiative. There are a lot of organizations, from pharmaceutical companies, behind this, and it's a very good program.

It's something that alone, government would have had a hard time doing, but with the partnership agreement that we have in place, it definitely will serve as a template to all government departments to come. Justice just happens to be the lucky department that gets to move forward, because they were a department that was more representative across the province, in different areas and so on.

[Page 530]

MS. WHALEN: How long will that pilot take before other departments can join?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The whole initiative is a four-year initiative, from start to finish; however, there are parts of that initiative that will be able to be incorporated in other departments before that point.

MS. WHALEN: That is encouraging. I wanted to ask you about the holiday leave that our employees are entitled to. There was a statistic out recently saying that Nova Scotians stand out as being the province that has the most leave that they don't take, they don't actually tend to take the holidays that are due them. Is this a problem within government? Do you have any figures on the number of public servants who don't take their annual leave?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I don't have that information here, but I can provide that to you.

MS. WHALEN: Would you undertake to do that, please. I think that, again, is something that relates back to a healthy individual and a healthy, balanced employee.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, the work/family balance is a key initiative of the HR initiative that we're going to lay out here in June.

MS. WHALEN: That's it. I'm not going to keep you any longer. Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We shall move to the closing statements of the minister.

The honourable Minister of Human Resources.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: In closing, I'd like to draw your attention once again to the priorities of the Public Service Commission and the Status of Women for the coming years. I've already spoken to the demographic shift facing all employers, and one recent and local example of this is the report that for the first time in our history Nova Scotia's death rate is expected to surpass its birth rate. We will all need to be mindful not only of the demographic realities I spoke of on Tuesday, but also of the differences in values and expectations of the various generations in our workforce.

That's why I'm proud of the government's corporate business plan. It was developed collaboratively by many of our own experts and with the input from many of our own employees. I believe that it provides us with the foundation to address our human resource challenges. The plan was first drafted by the human resource forum and the broader human resource community. More recently, key advisory groups representing finance, IT, policy and communications professionals, helped by providing reactions to draft vision, mission and value statements.

[Page 531]

As well, discussions were held with staff involved in leadership development programs and a number of front-line focus group sessions were held in Bridgewater, New Glasgow and Halifax. Focus group participants concluded that our corporate values must include references to such things as public trust, the public good, respect, integrity, non-partisan decision making, diversity, leadership and accountability. They also told us that these values must be reflected in our workplace and work life.

We were reminded that our vision and plan must contribute to a positive and mutually respectful relationship with the community we serve, to creative and fair employment practices free of political or bureaucratic bias, to the recognition and celebration of outstanding performances by empowered staff, to the availability of development and career opportunities, and to a balanced work life and supportive workplace. We also shared earlier drafts of this plan with a number of key labour leaders and heard similar advice from them.

The plan's content and focus were also influenced by the results of an organization-wide employee survey distributed to 8,100 public servants and responded to by 53 per cent of them. This corporate human resource plan is one example of government's commitment to understanding the causes and reasons behind the workplace concerns and interests of public servants and to responding to them. If this plan is to compliment the broader goals and objectives of government, it is important that our individual actions as public servants, in direct service delivery roles such as child care workers, highway workers, home care assistant workers or correction workers, or unless visible roles such as information technology, finance, human resources or policy development are focused on a common mission.

For Nova Scotia's public servants, this mission has to do with making a meaningful, measurable contribution to the lives of all Nova Scotians. The competition for new talent and the need to encourage good people to renew their commitment to public service will intensify in the immediate future. Most experts in the field of human resource management will tell you that individuals faced with many career options will be influenced by the type of work they wish to do by the intrinsic value of contribution of their work to their community and by the value placed on the work by others.

If the government is to be competitive, we must remind the people we wish to attract and retain of the very real opportunity that a career in public service presents for making a difference in the lives of others. Offering a rewarding and challenging career in public service as an environment where one's efforts are recognized and valued by other team members, by all elected officials and by the public, will help us keep our present employees longer and will encourage other skilled and empowered individuals to enter the Public Service. We must also identify human resource values that will guide our decision making and actions, as well as the way we interact with one another and with those we seek to serve.

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While no brief statement of values can hope to fully represent the views expressed during the consultative phase of this plan's development, we believe the values that public servants throughout Nova Scotia consider essential to our vision and mission are the ones I identified as respect, integrity, diversity, accountability and the public good.

If we are to achieve our goal of being a preferred employer and thereby be able to attract new workers into the Public Service, we must value a workplace culture where people respect one another in their interactions with co-workers and members of the public. We must value a workplace culture where personal and professional integrity cause us to behave in a non-partisan and ethical way and to make the best use of the resources entrusted to us. We must value a workplace where diversity in all its forms is encouraged and recognized for its contribution to a more creative, rewarding and productive Public Service to our broader community. We must value a workplace where accountability for our actions, our interactions, the objective and the wise use of resources and responsibilities for our successes and failures is reflected in how we conduct ourselves.

We are accountable to the citizens of Nova Scotia, to our co-workers and to our many partners in our service delivery. We must also value the very special relationship we have with the citizens of Nova Scotia and are committed to developing and delivering services that are in the public's interest and for the public good and to being a professional Public Service that is deserving of the public's trust.

Will the plan help us to attract and retain individuals who want to serve the citizens of Nova Scotia? Yes. Will everything identified in the plan be accomplished in one or two years? No, it will not. However, by implementing a plan to attract, retain and recognize people who are truly interested in public service and a plan to foster a workplace where core values are reflected in our actions, we will indeed contribute to a prosperous, healthy and self-sufficient Nova Scotia. I hope that in the coming years, as the plan is implemented, I can count on your support of achieving what I am sure is our common goal, that of having a quality Public Service delivered by quality public servants.

Now I will turn my closing comments to the work of the Advisory Council on the Status of Women. I want to highlight the important work accomplished by the Advisory Council and its staff. I wanted to keep my remarks brief, and at this point I probably should. Again, I want to thank Sonja Power, the new Chairman of the Advisory Council on the Status of Women. Sonja has been dedicated in her work on the council over the past six years and we can expect great things in her coming term as chairman. As well, council members Mary Hamblin and Linda Carvery have taken time from their schedules to attend and I thank them.

In Her Own Name: Public Pensions Advancing Equality for Rural Women: Recommendations for Public Retirement Pension Policy Development and Change. This publication is an independent research publication researched by Dr. Rusty Neal and funded

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by the Status of Women Canada. The Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women was one of five supporting groups on the project. It was released in May.

As I stated before, council is very concerned about the financial impact on women who leave the workforce to provide unpaid care to family members. It's work they love to do and only they can do it in many cases but they pay an economic penalty and they pay part of it when they are most economically vulnerable, toward the end of their lives. Votes for Women: A Political Guidebook, was our own publication and it was also launched in May right here in the Red Chamber. Women's Paid and Unpaid Work: Women in Nova Scotia, Part 5 of our Women in Nova Scotia statistical series, was launched in June.

The Campaign School, of course, was the highlight of the year and again will be an important part of the coming year, as will other public consultations. Work on the immigration strategy and minimum wage brief, and work in providing gender-based analysis on HIV/AIDS programs should also be recognized.

Again, at this point in time, I would like to thank the members who allowed me to say these comments, both my opening and closing comments, and I would like to move Resolution E14.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E14 stand?

Resolution E14 stands.

Resolution E19 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $834,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women, pursuant to the Estimate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E19 carry?

Resolution E19 is carried.

We will take a five minute break and we will reconvene with Justice.

[4:45 p.m. The committee recessed.]

[4:51 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Justice.

Resolution E10 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $107,847,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Justice, pursuant to the Estimate.

[Page 534]

HON. MICHAEL BAKER: Mr. Chairman, it is my great privilege to be here today. I have a few brief remarks to make to describe some of the many good things that are being done by the entities that I'm responsible for. Of course, that would include the Department of Justice, Public Prosecution Service, Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission, Office of Aboriginal Affairs, the Workers' Compensation Appeal Tribunal. I'm sure I've left somebody out but, if I have, they should take no offence by it, because I'm sure there may be an opportunity for them to address the committee, through me, later on.

Anyway, I will begin with my remarks, Mr. Chairman, dealing first of all with the Department of Justice. I'm pleased to have some time to speak with you about the goals and priorities of the Department of Justice. You will remember Deputy Minister Doug Keefe and Clarence Guest, Executive Director of Finance Administration. Mr. Keefe, of course, is to my left and Mr. Guest to my right. We are also joined by other staff who can help locate any information you might need as a result of our discussions here today. I will speak about the department's mission and add some context around the planning that happens throughout the year, talk about our strategic goals and also the department's core business areas and priorities for the coming year.

As the agency responsible for the administration of justice in the province, we have a significant responsibility to Nova Scotians. Like other departments and agencies, we've posted our business plan on the Internet so Nova Scotians can understand those priorities. The plan will also help them to track our progress toward meeting those priorities. To fulfill our commitment, we rely on knowledgeable, well-motivated and ethical staff who provide justice services in communities throughout the province. We also rely on sound information and research to help with our decision-making processes, and we rely on Justice partners who share our vision of the fair and effective justice system.

Now that we have a new annual plan, we are counting on the continued commitment of our employees, the support of our partners and the confidence of Nova Scotians. As I do each year at this time, I want to extend a sincere thank you to staff throughout the province who serve the public in our justice system and, in particular, I want to acknowledge the contribution made by the members of the Justice management team who have helped shape this year's business plan. Their involvement shows their commitment to excellent service, and our mission statement says, "The Department of Justice is committed to the fair and effective administration of justice and to excellence in service to the people of Nova Scotia."

To obtain broad input and support for the business plan, a Justice Partners Forum is held regularly. Representation includes the Nova Scotia Barristers' Society, Nova Scotia Legal Aid Commission, the Public Prosecution Service, the Canadian Bar Association, a representative of the judiciary, Justice Canada, the Nova Scotia Chiefs of Police Association and the Assistant Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. The forum ensures that the key players in the justice system work together to achieve common goals, while respecting the autonomy of each other.

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The Department of Justice is responsible for the administration of justice in Nova Scotia and ensuring that public affairs are conducted in accordance with the law. Indeed, the rule of law is fundamental to democratic government. To accomplish its mandate, the department has seven divisions: Legal Services Division, Correctional Services, Policing and Victim Services, Court Services, Human Resources, Information Management, and Finance and Administration. Throughout the year they work closely to make sure their priorities are synchronized with the larger corporate plan.

For example, government has made commitments in several justice-related areas: adopting antidrunk driving measures, such as more sobriety checkpoints; increasing resources to support the Domestic Violence Case Coordination Program; improving access to the Supreme Court, Family Division, and urging the federal government to expand services province-wide; expanding province-wide Youth Court to ensure effective prosecution of young offenders; increasing the support for victims of crime including, through additional measures, forcing criminals to provide restitution; urging Ottawa to match Nova Scotia's increased support for legal aid in the province; continued work with the federal government, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and local law enforcement agencies to take whatever new steps are necessary to protect public safety in the face of new terrorist threats.

Our Policing and Victim Services Division was instrumental in shaping legislation to provide extra jurisdictional authority for peace officers. This legislation will enhance co-operation across jurisdiction borders. The division will also develop regulations and training in response to the new Police Act which was introduced and passed in the Fall 2004 session of the Legislature.

Further, the department will develop a proposal regarding legislative reform of the private security industry. At the national level, Nova Scotia is taking a leadership role in pushing for changes to the Criminal Code, the Youth Criminal Justice Act - both of which are federal Statutes - to help make our streets and communities as safe as possible. Tougher laws are needed to combat motor vehicle theft where people recklessly endanger the lives of others, while our courts should have greater discretion to order youth held in custody until their trials and eventual court dispositions. Nova Scotia is also proposing that criminals who use syringes or knives to threaten victims during a robbery should face the same minimum prison sentences as those who use guns. Mr. Chairman, it is obvious to everyone that the criminal law should not provide incentives to one form of robber over another.

The province has also joined with others in calling for change in the way conditional sentences are used. Nova Scotians want to be assured the courts will only use conditional sentences for less serious crimes. In addition, the province is supporting the ongoing call for new, long-term federal funding for civil legal aid services and a return to 50/50 cost-sharing for criminal legal aid services. Fear and timely access to justice is a fundamental principle that must be upheld through our legal aid system.

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Turning to infrastructure, I'm sure you are aware that the Department of Justice is one of the largest tenants in government, occupying highly-specialized space. Work continues on the renovation or placing of aging structures as resources become available. For court facilities, a 35-year master plan within HRM has been completed to ensure resources are invested wisely and to meet demographic changes in the community. Meetings are underway to identify the next steps in this process, which are very important to determining where investments are made.

Substantial completion of the Port Hawkesbury facility is expected this Summer, and design work on the Lunenburg County Justice Centre in Bridgewater has begun. In fact, on May 2^nd, I was joined by several of my Cabinet colleagues, the deputy mayor of Bridgewater, and others, to unveil the sign announcing the future home of the justice centre. On Friday, May 6^th, a similar event was held in the Town of Yarmouth for a new justice centre project in that community. I would once again like to thank Mayor Crosby and town officials for their co-operation as we embark on this important new facility. I should also thank Mayor Publicover of the Town of Bridgewater for his co-operation in making land available for that important community investment.

[5:00 p.m.]

I should say, Mr. Chairman, it is striking, the change in attitude in municipal government in this province toward court facilities. I have been practising law long enough in this province to remember when, unfortunately, justice facilities were not always as highly regarded as they are today. Fortunately, now, communities look at justice facilities as real assets to the community, assets which are worth having in their community, which provide a centre of activity and also an important service to the public and, particularly in the case of correctional facilities, important jobs.

I might say, by way of further digression, that the Yarmouth correctional facility is another example of that kind of investment in a community. I never cease to go to Yarmouth and be impressed by the fact of how many people are truly thankful to government for providing that service in their community and, in point of fact, how valued a centre of that service is in the community and in fact, again significantly, the two levels of municipal government, the Town of Yarmouth and the Municipality of the District of Yarmouth, provided land for that site because they believed it was an important service in that community - and it shows the length of time that those investments had not been made in this province, the fact that 1864 was the date in which the last Yarmouth correctional facility was built. So our construction of the new Yarmouth correctional facility was somewhat timely.

I believe, from recollection, the cornerstone on the Yarmouth Court House is from the 1920s or 1930s and the one in Bridgewater, the courthouse we are replacing, was built in the 1890s. As you can see, Mr. Chairman, these investments are quite timely, but we have also made investments in other communities in upgrading facilities as well. So I think we

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should be very proud of the accomplishment we have made in Nova Scotia in the last few years in moving forward with the investments in this area, and they are certainly significant investments of capital in both cases - approximately $10 million, the case of each one of those facilities.

The Correctional Services Division also continues to implement its custody configuration plan which focuses on replacing or upgrading aging correctional facilities. As I said earlier, it was a proud day last April when we opened the new Southwest Nova Scotia Correctional Facility. I might add that there were literally crowds of people there, Mr. Chairman, looking to get into the correctional facility to see that asset - and it's almost heartwarming to see so many people looking to get into a correctional facility when, generally, most people are anxious to leave them.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Only a lawyer would hold that sentiment.

MR. BAKER: Well, that's right, Mr. Chairman, and we do have a fair number of lawyers at the Department of Justice as well.

The new building replaced a jail, as I said, built around the time of Confederation. As I indicated, the whole town showed up. Superintendent Rocky Partridge and his staff did a marvellous job hosting the community and providing tours which were literally oversubscribed.

Some other notable achievements this year in Corrections - we were able to close the Shelburne youth facility with minimal disruption and we consolidated all youth custody programs, both male and female youth custody programs, at Waterville.

Staff have also retooled youth programs to accommodate the change from the old Young Offenders Act to the Youth Criminal Justice Act. These changes have led to fewer youth being incarcerated with shorter custody times, but those who are sent to Waterville, in most cases, would be considered to be high-risk youth offenders, and that fact means programs had to be adjusted to better suit the needs of those in custody. Staff have also drafted a new Corrections Act for consultation with stakeholders.

In terms of employer/employee relations, an arbitration ruling led to a new three-year contract with adult correctional staff, members of NSGEU Local 480. Also, the division opened a new joint office in Spryfield where HRM police have a new community office right next to our probation office.

On matters involving public safety and security, the department continues to develop relationships with the broader stakeholder community and other jurisdictions. The challenge continues to be coordination, resources, and sharing of information. Efforts are underway to strengthen and modernize government in public policing, provide leadership to guide the

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operation and changing roles of the private security sector, and to promote public safety management in the new security environment. On the Corrections side, the department is working within a network of partnerships to deliver community and custody based programs and services.

Human resources - the department recognizes that a professional public service must be maintained to meet the needs of the public and businesses in Nova Scotia. It works with the Public Service Commission on the development of a comprehensive, sustainable, healthy workplace strategy for all employees, with a pilot project underway in 2005. The department is also acting on recommendations relating to an employee systems review of correctional services. There is also a need to ensure business continuity and succession management planning, given the demographic challenge on an aging workforce, while ongoing training remains the top priority. Additional priority areas of focus include: occupational health and safety initiatives to ensure a safe and supportive workplace; affirmative action initiatives, establishing objectives and actions in response to the employees' survey commissioned by the Public Service Commission; and fostering a meaningful performance review throughout the department.

Earlier I mentioned the use of information and research. Our justice partners forum continues to reinforce the importance of timely and accurate justice statistics for evidence-based decision making. The department's Justice Indicators initiative is helping to ensure performance measures are tracked to help identify opportunity for improvement. Justice Indicators will support policy development and will help evaluate programs. It's a tool to help make sure we are meeting public needs and demands on the system. The vision is to have indicators for all operational areas of the department and for the priorities, goals and projects that are critical to our mandate. Information systems such as the Justice Enterprise Information Network are also critical pieces of infrastructure, with additional initiatives underway to maximize the use of this network.

We can, and must, take advantage of technology to make systems and processes work as well as possible. Balancing business priorities and the cost of proposed solutions continues to be a significant challenge for the department.

Speaking of money, despite fiscal challenges the department is consistently on budget. Multi-year plans and priorities are set to accommodate established strategic directions in a fiscally responsible manner. The department is working to develop strategic financial capacity for the justice system as a whole, so it becomes more cost effective. The department also continues to look to long-term fiscal solutions to assist itself and the government as a whole with respect to this fiscal situation.

How do we measure progress, you might add, Mr. Chairman. In the upcoming fiscal year, the department will introduce many new outcome measures to track its progress. These new measures are more consistent with our strategic directions and reflect a broad

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departmental and societal approach than the program-type measures tracked in previous years.

I would now like to turn my attention to the department's strategic goals, but before I do there is a fundamental vision that ties everything together. Our vision is that Nova Scotia is seen to be a place where people and their rights are respected, that the Department of Justice will provide leadership in partnership with others to build a province where citizens trust the justice system, people are and feel safe and secure, disputes are effectively and sensitively resolved, access to the justice process is timely and affordable, communities actively participate in the justice system, and diversity is valued and respected.

Over the next three to five years, here is where we intend to go; I will call these strategic directions. First, a justice system that is properly administered and cost effective with a focus on increasingly transparent and accountable measures. This requires well-trained and well-motivated staff. It also means we need to work closely with our partners to reach agreement on common issues. Secondly, there must be a continued public confidence in the justice system with a focus on improving public perception of courts, corrections and policing. We must help Nova Scotians understand how the justice system works and how decision making affects people. As part of our accountability, we will continue to demonstrate how we set priorities and manage our resources. Where we can, we need to simplify and streamline.

I know you hear the word integration quite a bit these days but there are clear benefits to be had by working together with other organizations inside and outside of government. For example, we are making progress in ways to help people represent themselves in certain circumstances. That only came after significant consultation. A third strategic direction is that we want people to be safe and to feel safe and secure. One way is to make sure we effectively capture and communicate relevant statistics and public safety initiatives.

Public awareness is critical. Look at the Amber Alert program, for example. By working closely with our police partners, broadcasters and Child Find Nova Scotia, we generated a great deal of public awareness of that program in Nova Scotia and I'm very pleased to say that Nova Scotia has been invited by the U.S. Department of Justice to attend an Amber Alert conference. We would continue to seek access to federal funds for crime prevention initiatives and youth justice programs.

A fourth direction is that more Nova Scotians make constructive choices. To do that, we will need to focus on educating people about all legal options available to resolve disputes. For people who have already run into trouble with the law, we will continue to develop and promote programs that encourage changes in offender-based behaviour and attitudes. I believe our strategic directions support each other. A properly administered and cost-effective justice system is one in which the public will have confidence. People who have confidence in the justice system will feel more safe and secure. They will also have the

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confidence to make constructive choices and to explore and use an appropriate dispute resolution method from among the range of options we provide in Nova Scotia. Like our vision and mission, these strategic directions are lined with the Government of Nova Scotia's overall priority, our effort to provide public safety and security and reduce the harmful impact of crime on victims.

Our efforts can reduce the demand for health services and a reputation for safety also stimulates our economy since people prefer to live in a place where they feel safe. All of our economic activities depend on the protection of personal and property rights and the lawful administration of public affairs ensures a healthy environment that encourages greater prosperity.

I will touch briefly on the department's core business areas. First, oversight governance and advice to police, private security services and firearms licence holders. Policing services provides an advisory role to all police services and manage contracts with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and First Nations policing. In fact, we have signed a new five-year agreement with the Government of Canada and the Mi'kmaq First Nations to continue RCMP policing with Nova Scotia paying 48 per cent of the cost of that contract. Our aboriginal communities will benefit from this new agreement.

The division also helps develop standards and training in partnership with stakeholders. Renewal of more than 100 police standards is now underway and should be ready by the end of the current fiscal year. Staff also work with the broader safety community on various projects to reduce or prevent crime. They also license companies and individuals engaged in the private security industry and administer the licensing provisions of the federal Firearms Act.

[5:15 p.m.]

I am very pleased that further progress has been made to help victims of domestic violence. The department has produced a new pocket guide to help police as they investigate cases of spousal or intimate partner abuse. We have also pulled together expertise to peruse other safety planning resources and three months ago, Deputy Minister Keefe hosted a leadership forum on this subject at the Justice Learning Centre.

A second core business area is providing assistance to victims of crime. The goal is to reduce the harmful impact of crime on victims by working with justice partners and communities on programs for victims of crime that address the victims' needs and providing direct services to victims through four core programs: the provincial Victim Services Program, the Criminal Injuries Counselling Program, the Victim Impact Statement Program and the Child Victim or Witness Program.

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A third core business area is to offer ways that people can resolve disputes in a fair and principled manner. We will continue to provide access to justice and improve public safety through civil law court services including court administration and management, small claims court adjudication, other adjudication for other civil law, probate and bankruptcy matters. On the criminal side, we will also focus on improvement to court administration and management, the transport of prisoners to and from court and restorative justice initiatives for diverting offences involving youth.

In matters involving family law court services, we will improve access to justice to provide improvements to court administration and management, monitoring and enforcing payment of support orders and family support orders. The department operates 45 courthouses and other facilities throughout the province. Court administration is managed through 14 justice centres with four located within the Halifax Regional Municipality and the other 10 justice centres are located in Bridgewater, Yarmouth, Digby, Kentville, Truro, Pictou, New Glasgow, Amherst, Antigonish, Port Hawkesbury and Sydney. The division also manages the Maintenance Enforcement Program with eight offices across the Province of Nova Scotia. Payment enrolment processing is centralized in the Dartmouth office.

Correctional Services is another important core business area. Staff in the division are focused on improving public safety and security through community based directions including adult diversion measures, court information, offender supervision and reintegration programs and planning. On the custody side, managers are responsible for running adult and youth facilities and offering reintegration programs. The department operates five adult correctional facilities, one youth correctional facility and 15 community correction offices. Adult correctional facilities are located in Amherst, Antigonish, Dartmouth, Sydney and Yarmouth. The youth facility is in Waterville and there is a small, satellite detention facility for overnight accommodation of youth in the Sydney area.

The 15 community correctional field offices are located in Amherst, Antigonish, Bedford, Bridgewater, Dartmouth, New Glasgow, Halifax, Kentville, North Sydney, Port Hawkesbury, Shelburne, Sydney, Truro and Yarmouth. There are approximately 10,000 court-ordered admissions to correctional services on an annual basis in other core business areas providing legal services to government departments.

I am very proud of the work that is done by Justice lawyers. Legal services promotes lawful administration of public affairs through: litigation services, including representation of the Crown and its agencies before courts and tribunals and supporting alternate dispute resolution; solicitor services, including legal advice to the Crown and its agencies; corporate counsel services; drafting regulations and legislation law reform and legislation support and client education. The Registry of Regulations maintains, publishes and consolidates all regulations, ensures public access and publishes the Royal Gazette. It is also responsible for reviewing and editing all regulations submitted to Cabinet to ensure they meet the established

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standards for form and draftsmanship. Legal services also helps educate members of tribunals working in administrative justice.

The department also works with partners to ensure the proper administration of justice. Through Nova Scotia Legal Aid, qualified applicants are entitled to legal counsel with priority for matters involving the liberty and civil rights of individual clients and for matters involving the integrity and protection of an individual's family. Through the Office of the Medical Examiner, investigations are conducted into all deaths due to violence, undue means, culpable negligence and sudden, unexplained deaths.

The Office of the Public Trustee provides trustee services for infants, incompetent persons and missing persons. The Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act branch, also helps administrators across government respond according to the Act. Staff also provide training and keep abreast of privacy issues from across Canada.

I would like to acknowledge the work of support staff in Human Resources, Information Management, Communications and Finance and Administration. They are often behind the scenes but contribute in many ways.

The department's 2005-06 business plan sets out priorities for the coming year. The priorities are presented under each of the four strategic directions.

Strategic Direction No. 1: A justice system that is property administered and cost effective. We want our justice system to be recognized as the most properly administered and cost effective in Canada. To make that happen we must use resources in the most innovative and adaptive ways with the following priorities identified for 2005-06: Effectively manage existing infrastructure and consider new construction where warranted and funds are available; work continues on the renovation and replacement of aging structures as resources become available; this fiscal year the focus will be on the new court facilities in Port Hawkesbury, Bridgewater and Yarmouth; a metro area facility master plan; ongoing court renovations province-wide; continued replacement and/or upgrading of aging correctional facility infrastructure; and very importantly I might add, expansion of the Supreme Court Family Division, province-wide.

To effectively manage in technology infrastructure and support, the development of new tools. There is an increasing need and demand for information technology (IT) and other technology solutions to make system processes more effective and efficient. New and/or enhanced solutions to be implemented or explored in 2005-06 include: digital recording and a docket information system; technology infrastructure upgrades; justice enterprise information network - the so-called "JEIN" system; implementation and additional leverage of this integrated information network; expansion of on-line options for fine and maintenance enforcement payments.

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To improve internal access to information for evidence-based decision making, justice information and acknowledge our corporate resources. We will therefore work to ensure information is communicated in a form that supports responsible decision making through the justice system. We propose the following activities: continue developing meaningful justice indicators for strategic and business planning activities at both the departmental and operational levels; explore use of an on-line accounting system to expedite financial transactions related to Supreme, Family and Probate Courts; expand the materials and tools found on the department's Intranet site, including courts and correctional services manuals.

To undertake a comprehensive employee wellness initiative. The Department of Justice will help to set the roadmap for the development of a healthy workplace environment, which will focus on personal health, occupational health and safety, and organizational health. Justice is the first department to take part in this three-year study. The project, called Effect of a Comprehensive Workplace Wellness on Economic and Clinical Factors is a collaboration between the Public Service Commission, the Office of Health Promotion, the Department of Justice, the Atlantic Health and Wellness Institute, Pfizer Canada Inc., AstraZeneca Canada Inc., and Sun Life Financial.

The purpose of the $1 million project is twofold: design, implement and evaluate the template for comprehensive and integrated wellness programs with the Department of Justice serving as the prototype for the Government of Nova Scotia; establish the relationship between existing health risk factors; average health claim dollars; and track the change in claim data as the health of employees improves. I'm told so far, nearly 500 employees have rolled up their sleeves literally and taken their preliminary health tests. They've also completed surveys that will help design future wellness programs.

To strengthen federal, provincial and territorial relations. Our work at the national level is critical to accomplishing our revision and mission. In 2005-06 we will negotiate FPT agreements focusing on Legal Aid, First Nations, community tripartite, provincial policing and youth initiatives. We will play a leadership role in the national justice statistics initiative and the Justice Efficiencies Task Force, established by Ministers responsible for Justice in Canada.

Strategic Direction No. 2: There is a public confidence in the justice system. We want the public to value the rule of law and trust the justice system. To help realize this vision, the department must act in accordance with the law and be open and accountable for its action. This confidence in law makes a significant contribution to the social and economic well being of Nova Scotia. To help build this confidence the department will undertake the following priorities in 2005-06: As I announced before, we will hold a full, independent and public inquiry into the release of a youth who later was charged and convicted in the death of Theresa McEvoy of Halifax. The inquiry Chair will have full authority to hear witnesses and compel testimony from those witnesses. The final report, including findings and

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recommendations will be made public; we will also evaluate may other programs to make sure they are on the right track. The evaluation is necessary for public accountability and for providing information regarding the efficiency of Justice programs and services.

There are two priorities for evaluation in 2005-06, the Domestic Violence Intervention Act and the Family Violence Tracking Initiative. Court Services will also look at ways to strengthen the Restorative Justice Program. We will continue to strengthen Restorative Justice by consulting with stakeholders within the Justice system and communities. The program focuses on deterring repeat offenders, repairing the harm caused to the victim, and integrating offenders back into the community.

The department will also continue to address recommendations made in an Employment Systems Review. The Correctional Services Division is now following up on practical recommendations that will advance a safe, modern workplace and promote our vision of an inclusive and diverse workforce. That review examined policies and practices in recruitment, hiring, selection, retention, career development, promotion, discipline and termination. Lessons learned will be applied as needed throughout the department.

Strategic Direction No. 3: People are and feel safe and secure. We want Nova Scotians to be and feel safe and secure and know we need to work together to develop safer communities. In 2005-06 we will focus on the following priorities: first we will work collaboratively to address youth crime in light of the new Youth Criminal Justice Act, the so-called "YCJA", and the continued need for the community-based programs and supervision of high-risk, high-needs youth. We plan the following initiatives: seek changes to the YCJA and the Criminal Code which would carry stricter sentences and categorize auto theft as the serious offence it is, especially when it leads to the reckless disregard for the lives of others; we will monitor implementation of a new Community Corrections Service Delivery Model and the establishment of youth specialists within that model; we will continue to pursue a province-wide youth court to ensure effective prosecution of young offenders; we will implement an updated program strategy for the Nova Scotia Youth Centre by adjusting programming to meet the changing needs of fewer but unfortunately more challenging young offenders; and my department will complete the development of practice and curriculum standards for the Restorative Justice Programs.

The department is also committed to enhancing the well-being and safety of Nova Scotians by providing responsive educational programs and services to Justice workers. In 2005-06, the department will work through the Justice Learning Centre to launch new training in areas such as performance management, leadership development, technology and sheriff officer training. Other subjects include facilitation and conflict resolution, domestic violence education, including hosting forums that encourage system-wide thinking and collaboration. We will continue development of operational training, including a focus on policies and procedures, orientation, safety, security and programming.

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[5:30 p.m.]

Another goal is to improve relationships and establish shared priorities with our justice partners. We will establish an information management subcommittee of the justice partners forum. We will also further develop strategic partnerships in areas of programming and re-integration planning for offenders. We will collaborate with police services, non-government organizations, the tripartite of Aboriginal Justice Forum and the Children and Youth Action Committee within government.

In the area of privacy, staff will continue to study trends across the country. The increased use of electronic forms of communication demands that we take very seriously concerns around the protection of personal information and access to privacy records. Justice will adopt a new corporate privacy impact assessment tool and will develop and distribute access and privacy education materials.

Mr. Chairman, the nature of our justice system in Nova Scotia means we must be involved with other organizations and other levels of government, and if I use the word collaboration a lot, it simply reflects how things happen. It is also our approach to addressing concerns about public safety. Our focus is developing relationships within the broader stakeholder community and act across jurisdictions to address historic and emerging public safety issues, with the following activities planned in the next fiscal year. We have already introduced legislation to provide extra jurisdictional authority for peace officers. We are working with public safety partners to improve response to organized crime, potential terrorist threats and gang-related activity. In fact, we recently announced a four-year funding program for the Criminal Intelligence Service Nova Scotia, and investment of $6.1 million in public safety. This announcement was met with tremendous support from the policing community. We will develop and introduce a new certification/decertification process and standard for Canadian Fire Arms Safety Course instruction and develop a proposal regarding legislative reform of the private security industry. We will also continue to engage others as we work together to address family violence.

Our efforts in 2005-06 will help the development and implementation of new initiatives in areas such as training, case coordination and education. We will examine the best approaches and expedite the processing of high-risk cases involving spousal or intimate partner violence. We will expand the province's family law centres. We will expand the availability of the department's respectful relationship program for offenders, and work with the Department of Community Services to enhance delivery of men's treatment programs. Staff will continue to work collaboratively to provide support for children and vulnerable witnesses. We will continue to examine proposed federal legislation such as Bill C-2, which provides for increased access to testimonial aids and expands provisions allowing for the appointment of counsel to conduct cross-examination in cases where the accused is self-represented. Correctional Services will also look at new supervision strategies for offenders

[Page 546]

with the implementation of an electronic monitoring pilot project. This will take advantage of GPS technology.

Strategic Direction No. 4: helping people make constructive choices. We want Nova Scotia to be known as a place where rights are respected and protected and where disputes are resolved in a variety of principled ways. To help realize this vision, the department will undertake the following priorities: First, improve public access to information including Internet expansion. We know people need access to relevant and timely information to inform decision making and to encourage constructive choices. Our focus in 2005-06, will be to: complete revision and consolidation of regulations of Nova Scotia, with on-line access; continued implementation of the self-represented litigants report including, developing information materials for self-represented litigants; provide web-based access for clients to create Small Claims Court claims; undertake a complete review of the Department of Justice public Web site. Second, undertake new initiatives to reach out to communities. We recognize the duty to respond to the need of a culturally diverse population, and to ensure access to justice in both of our official languages.

Our focus in 2005-06, will be on French language services in response to new legislation regarding delivery of language services by the Public Service, Mi'kmaq services including building on the Aboriginal Court Workers Program, which provides assistance to those accused of a crime, continued development of an interpretation policy to formalize the process of providing interpreters.

With that, Mr. Chairman, I will end my comments concerning the Department of Justice. I would thank staff across the province for their continued professionalism and dedication, and with permission I will move on to the Public Prosecution Service. But before I do that, I would like to mention a few things which I think will be of particular interest to members of the Official Opposition who are present. One item I would like to indicate and give credit for is the fact that I know that Mr. Deveaux was the advocate for improved services in the area of regulatory offences, and I'm pleased that this year in our budget, we were able to put a provision in there for a dedicated regulatory prosecutor, who will not only be a prosecutor in the classic sense, but will provide support to other prosecutors in prosecuting occupational health and safety and environmental kinds of matters before the courts.

We heard about this in Question Period earlier today, that our government will be increasing the number of maintenance enforcement workers. That was an issue that was very paramount during our discussion last year of legislative initiatives, and we made a commitment that if finances permitted this year that there would be an increase in those resources and I expect approximately a half a dozen people will be hired, in addition to the 22, which is a very significant increase in the percentage of people in that program.

[Page 547]

Another area that was an issue brought forward by the Official Opposition last year, which I wanted to highlight, was in the area of the so-called 10- and 11-year-olds. The 10- and 11-year-old group are not, under present federal criminal justice legislation, technically offenders. Although they can't be prosecuted, they unfortunately do get in conflict the law, do commit offences, but simply can't be prosecuted for those offences. One of the questions earlier, as well, had been, what about the resources that were coming available as a result of the closure of the Shelburne Youth Centre. Well, happily, the community in Shelburne and the Government of Nova Scotia have worked out an arrangement where the Shelburne Youth Centre is being transferred to the community to be used for economic development. The proceeds of that sale will be going to economic development and, as well, a $600,000 amount will transferred to the community in Shelburne County to cover the cost of maintaining that facility after the transfer is completed, until a purchaser can be found for those facilities.

As part of that, I can indicate to you that it is our plan to develop resources from that program, which will assist in dealing with this higher-risk group of individuals, the 10- and 11-year-olds, which was raised, as I said, by the Official Opposition last year during discussion on the bills because we believe that there is a greater opportunity to assist these young people in their difficulties so that ultimately they do not become serious offenders who put themselves and the community at risk. So I think that's a positive example of how, when you free up some resources from that - one of the reasons I can't quantify the amount at this time, it will be hundreds of thousands of dollars, I expect is because the actual transfer to the community of the Shelburne Youth Centre has yet to be effected. The Department of Justice is responsible for the cost of the maintenance of those facilities until the transfer can be completed, which I expect probably will be happening this Summer. It's a little hard to quantify, other than to say we will expect it to certainly be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars and that's an example of a positive change. Obviously, it was a difficult situation for the community but the community now has another asset to use in economic development, and we, in government, have another asset to use towards assisting young people in dealing with the justice system.

Mr. Chairman, with that I would like to check on my time to see how it is going.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have 10 minutes left in your opening remarks.

MR. BAKER: That's fine, perhaps I'll do a little bit of highlights on some of my other areas of responsibilities and I'm sure you'll indicate when I run out of time, Mr. Chairman, I can depend on you. If you could give me the one-minute warning, I would appreciate that.

The Nova Scotia Public Prosecution Service works hard for the people of the province, representing the public interest in criminal proceedings. Let me remind you that Nova Scotia's Public Prosecution Service was established in 1990 under the Public

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Prosecutions Act and is the first independent prosecution service in Canada. It employs 88 Crown Attorneys and has a total staff of 151 in 19 offices across the Province of Nova Scotia.

Our Crowns handle about 36,000 cases every year. Last year these included 42 murders and attempted murders; 307 robberies; 451 sexual assaults; 1,483 break and enters; and about 3,385 thefts, and it prosecutes cases on a budget of approximately $15 million. In addition to prosecuting all Criminal Code offences in Nova Scotia, the PPS is responsible for prosecuting cases involving violation of provincial Statutes. Last year, the PPS prosecuted 4,828 such cases. The PPS also deals with appeals of decisions made by courts, for the service determines if the court has made an error in law. Last year the PPS was involved in 53 appeals.

Since its establishment 14 years ago, it has prosecuted cases that have garnered national attention and national controversy in some cases, to be sure. As a service, the PPS delivers quality, front-line prosecution services and continues to sharpen its skills and expertise in major complex cases. With regard to our hard-working team of Crown Attorneys, I remind you that on February 2000, we saw a labour relations milestone. An agreement was reached with the Nova Scotia Crown Attorneys Association on a salary-setting mechanism. With that agreement in place, the government and the Crown Attorneys association are free to negotiate annual salary increases.

Continued education for full and per diem Crown Attorneys, as well as support staff, remains a priority in order to enhance the level of expertise within the PPS and the resulting quality of prosecution services. More than $150,000 was spent on education and training during the previous fiscal year. Specifically, the Public Prosecution Service funded the attendance of 52 Crown Attorneys at the Federation of Law Societies' National Criminal Law Program in Halifax; it funded the Crown Attorney annual conference; and the Public Prosecution Service support staff's annual seminar held this year on the western shore of Nova Scotia; it funded the participation of six Crown Attorneys at the Ontario Crown Attorneys Summer School Program, a valuable professional program opportunity made available to the PPS through the kind co-operation of the Ontario Ministry of the Attorney General; funded an advocacy training program for new and per diem Crown Attorneys; continued to train public prosecution staff in the use of the Prosecution Information Composite system, the so called "PIC" system; continued to provide training to all Crown Attorneys on the new Youth Criminal Justice Act; provided training to Crown Attorneys on the government's Family Violence Initiative; continued additional training as required on new PPS policies; and supported the requirements of the Education Development Committee, to ensure that PPS staff received required training.

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[5:45]

The PPS also participates at the national level. The Director of Public Prosecutions continues to meet regularly with the heads of prosecutions from other jurisdictions across Canada to share information and collaborate on common initiatives and share best practices. Let me now turn to the challenges facing the Nova Scotia Public Prosecution Service.

Canadian justice statistics indicate that Halifax has one of the highest rates of violent crime per capita of a city its size in the country. Major cases require extensive work by Crown Attorneys preparing the case for court. There are often complex Charter challenges in these proceedings. There are usually dozen of witnesses to be interviewed and prepared for the experience of giving evidence in court. There are always expert witness reports to be studied and digested. More and more often DNA evidence is introduced in court requiring extensive preparation by Crown counsel. Major cases are complex and they are high profile. Public safety and the public perception of justice are influenced by the outcome of these cases.

The PPS makes it a practice to assign at least two Crown Attorneys to each major case, at least one being a senior Crown Attorney. This is essential in order to professionally ensure the demands of these difficult cases. This year the PPS is initiating a mechanism in the Halifax Region to fast track, where possible, the early resolution of criminal cases. A senior Crown Attorney is assigned to review files as they come in to flag those which look as though they may be easily resolved or even discontinued. A letter is placed in the file from the Crown outlining an acceptable sentence in the event of a guilty plea. The Crown's position is made known to the accused through the disclosure process and may encourage an early resolution.

At the same time, Halifax is beginning to mirror a longstanding Dartmouth approach to cell matters. Instead of different Crown Attorneys handling cell matters every day in Halifax Provincial Court, one Crown will be handling all cell matters every day for a month. The ability to dedicate a single Crown for an entire month gives the Crown Attorney additional time to try to resolve matters early, where possible. This Crown has no responsibility other than the cell matters at that time.

Government initiatives to combat organized crime are expected to result in an increase in the number of major prosecutions. The service must have resources to respond to the demands of these major prosecutions. Some major prosecutions are handled by members of the service's Special Prosecutions section. The Crown Attorneys involved in the Special Prosecutions section do not have a regular court assignment, thus, have the time necessary to devote to major prosecutions. The permanent staff complement of the Special Prosecutions section entails a Chief Crown Attorney and eight other Crown Attorneys. This complement can handle only a small percentage of the major prosecutions conducted each year.

[Page 550]

When major cases come up by Crown Attorneys, other than those in the Special Prosecution section, they can also be responding to the demands of a regular court responsibility. This difficulty necessitates back-filling for the Crown Attorney in the regular court schedule for day, week, month, or even years, as has happened in the past. Therefore the service must use outside counsel hired on a per diem or term employment basis to backfill in response to major crime.

With regard to day-to-day operations and the need historically for regular per diem assistance, the Halifax Region has experienced success in dramatically reducing the need for per diem Crowns. This has been done with an innovative approach to court scheduling and has resulted in significant court savings. The service has a policy of assigning two Crown Attorneys to all major cases and the anticipated increase in the number of major cases, as well as an expected increase in Crown Attorney salaries will increase the service's staffing costs in the fiscal 2005-06 year.

This year the Nova Scotia Public Prosecution Service will dedicate a Crown Attorney exclusively to the prosecution of provincial regulatory offences. This initiative is designed to enhance the Public Prosecution Service's expertise in provincial regulatory prosecutions. This Crown Attorney will concentrate initially on occupational health and safety offences and will serve as an in-house resource for other Nova Scotia Crown Attorneys involved in occupational health and safety and other regulatory offence prosecutions. The decision to assign a Crown Attorney exclusively to regulatory offence prosecution was a joint resolve of the Public Prosecution Service and the Department of Environment and Labour. Each organization wants to enhance the way these cases are carried out and handled both at the investigation and the prosecution stage. The service continues to handle cases involving alleged illegal hunting and logging by aboriginal persons. Litigation of aboriginal rights involves the presentation of extensive . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. As fascinating as the opening comments have been, the time has come to an end so could you wrap it up with one minute.

MR. BAKER: Well, I will then summarize, Mr. Chairman, by saying that there were a number of very other important areas in the Public Prosecution Service which I hope to be able to touch on perhaps in my closing remarks.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll now turn to the NDP caucus.

The honourable member for Hants East.

MR. JOHN MACDONELL: Mr. Chairman, I guess my first question, or two questions, who wrote your opening speech and how do we get them fired?

[Page 551]

MR. BAKER: I suspect they may be present and I don't think there would be a lot of people trying to claim credit for that.

MR. MACDONELL: Probably in your eyes that person deserves a promotion so, you know, maybe you should consider that. I guess I have about three items, one major item. The legislation last year, maintenance enforcement, that hasn't been proclaimed yet, what's the story?

MR. BAKER: My understanding is that staff are working on regulations and on training matters involving that legislation and I'll just check about the estimated time. My understanding is that they would expect that this, the combination of hiring the staff and proclamation of the Act would be early Fall of this year.

MR. MACDONELL: Well, I want to say I'm interested to know how that moves along. There are, I'm assuming for all MLAs, you know, they get calls in this area and I find them particularly distressing. I think when people get to call me, things have kind of ramped up to a fairly high emotional level and it really strikes me that either a caseload of maintenance enforcement, or their powers or abilities to do things in a timely, effective way are really hampered. My thought was this legislation would help that. So I'm really interested to see that that moves along quickly.

MR. BAKER: I won't give you a long answer other than to say I agree with you. I think that it is a combination of factors. Clearly I think additional staff will help with some of the frustration. I'm sure that the member would find, as I do, that when people call, one of the things they sometimes get frustrated by is simply perhaps not getting to talk to a person as quickly as they would like and getting information back as quickly as they would like, not that that will always be the solution to their problem, but at least that enhances the frustration level. Obviously, additional staff, the staff we have work very hard in what is a very demanding service.

Nothing I say is intended as any criticism whatsoever for the wonderful people who do that job, but I certainly am sure they can use additional resources and that's why we put it in the budget and by the way, that's also as a result of their recommendation, staff recommendations. Many of those changes that were in the legislation we passed earlier simply were areas where the staff had identified important initiatives. So I think the two things combined, additional staff resources and the legislation being proclaimed in force, will hopefully deal with some of the cases, but it will always continue to be a challenging area. I think it's a challenging area across the country, across North America frankly, but I think that it will help make the system better and maybe each one of us will get fewer calls because fewer people are being impacted negatively.

MR. MACDONELL: I'm not knocking the staff really.

[Page 552]

MR. BAKER: No, I know.

MR. MACDONELL: So, you know, if anything I can say eventually helps them do their work, I'm glad to say it. There's a resource centre being built in Elmsdale, in my constituency. It was my understanding that the Justice office in Shubenacadie was going there, but I heard it wasn't. So can you fill me in on that or can anybody?

MR. BAKER: I hadn't heard that, you know, everything in the department I don't necessarily hear of, but I'm looking at other people here on my right and left and they don't seem to have.

MR. MACDONELL: Not hearing that it is or that it isn't, or that it was?

MR. BAKER: No, no, they've never heard that it was in the first place. In other words, it's not something you've lost, it's something you may never have had.

MR. MACDONELL: Never had, okay. Well, I just know from one of the local members who's on the district health authority, who's quite involved with this building, they seem to be of the impression that Justice was going in there. (Interruptions)

MR. BAKER: We have Corrections in Shubenacadie and certainly there's no plan that we're aware of certainly at this level, but we can undertake to check on that for you if it would assist the member. Just to let you know whether there was any change in plans, but I'm not certainly aware of them.

MR. MACDONELL: Thank you. My third issue is Mike Trask. So I have just three notes here and a bit from the past, but I'll give them to you because I would like you to have them. His first issue was he felt discrimination during the hiring process, that he was not accommodated for his disability - he's dyslexic - during interviews and this delayed his hiring for several years, but when he was accommodated in that regard, he had high marks as a result of the interview. Many instances of lack of respect by management, retaliation by management, when he brought concerns to Human Rights and to you actually, he felt he was retaliated against for that meeting that he had with you and me.

His third one, still not being accommodated in the workplace, is a major issue and not being given a portable computer to use for writing reports. This was recommended in an assessment of his disability and actually I think I had written you and got a copy of a letter from you saying that he has access to one. He didn't actually and I guess, I'm looking back at a letter, January 28, 2004, and I think I had raised this prior to the letter, so I'm thinking probably late 2003, and I've got to say I'm really starting to be baffled. I'm assuming that there would be people on your staff today who would have laptops or have use of them and in the 21^st Century I'm having trouble trying to figure out why this issue is not going away. I think I raised it last year in estimates.

[Page 553]

MR. BAKER: I can't tell you whether it was a laptop, but I think you did raise issues around access to a computer last year.

MR. MACDONELL: Yes. Well, I'm thinking in this note here about a portable computer so if there's another way to do that other than a laptop, you know, I'm all for it. So I guess my first question is, in terms of people with a similar disability, what is your department's policy around accommodation? It appears to me that you don't want to accommodate people who are disabled in that department.

MR. BAKER: Well, it's unfortunate if it appears that way because that's not the case. I can assure you that that's not the case. Clearly there has been a long-standing disagreement between staff at the facility and Mr. Trask. I can tell you that I'm informed that Correctional Services has agreed to review Mr. Trask's needs again and, indeed, have agreed to mediation arranged by the Department of Environment and Labour, in an effort to reach resolve.

[6:00 p.m.]

I can indicate with respect to a laptop that I'm informed by staff that whatever kind of computer Mr. Trask would have access to wouldn't be allowed to be taken away from the site of the correctional facility. I mention that because there are security concerns, obviously the documentation that is provided on a computer, whether it's a desktop or laptop would not be suitable to be taken away. Unfortunately, computers are sometimes stolen and that information wouldn't necessarily be suitable to be taken to an unsecured area and Mr. Trask would have no choice if he took it with him than to have it in an unsecured area, even if it was only his personal vehicle.

I hope the mediation process will find a resolve because my experience is that if a mutually satisfactory resolve can be found, that it's best for the employee and the employer both. I'm sure it diverts a lot of attention of management staff to other matters and I'm sure it diverts a lot of the attention of Mr. Trask, as an employee of Correctional Services, from the responsibilities of his job. I can assure you I have done everything I can to encourage and the correctional staff certainly were very receptive to that. I know it hasn't seen any resolve yet and that's unfortunate not only for Mr. Trask but for the department.

I hope that next year when estimates roll around, whoever is sitting in this chair will not have to be asked questions by you about Mr. Trask's situation, it will have resolved itself ideally to everyone's satisfaction.

MR. MACDONELL: I surely hope so, as well. As a matter of fact, I would like to think I won't have a need to come to ask you a question, or to listen to a speech quite that long. I guess if we're talking 18 months - you said hopefully next year we won't have to raise this. I'm looking at 18 months anyway - I know from what Mr. Trask has told me, the computer he was told he could have access to, he'd have to get the supervisor to get to the

[Page 554]

computer so this just wasn't practical. I think he'd be fine if the computer never left where he works but if he had access to a computer in a secure place where he could come and go as he needs to, I think he would be very happy about that and that doesn't seem to be able to happen. I have to say that I can't believe . . .

MR. BAKER: I can indicate that whatever has happened in the recent past, Mr. Trask has - as I understand from Correctional Services staff - been an excellent employee up to the time these difficulties arose. When he worked at another centre, I think he had a good relationship with his supervisors and seemed to be - as I have been informed - to outward appearances, genuinely happy in his work. Hopefully, this mediation process will get to a situation where that former situation will be restored. I know that's what you wish on behalf of your constituent, it's certainly what I wish on behalf of the department.

MR. MACDONELL: Thanks. I think he really likes the work, I think this is it for him. This is the work he had wanted to do for some time until he could get into a program to get his training and then start so for him, this is a big deal. He has been off on stress leave for some time so if you wanted to lean over to Mr. Honsberger and say, call the guy tomorrow and see what you can do, I think that would really make me happy. I would like to know a little more about how this mediation is going to work.

MR. BAKER: I'm informed that the department will be paying not only for the mediator but for Mr. Trask's lawyer and we're also going to bring into the situation an occupational therapist in order to give professional advice on how to deal with Mr. Trask's disability and how to accommodate that in the workplace. I think it is a genuine attempt to try to put these matters behind everyone. We can't undo the past but we can look forward to a solution in the future. I hope that it works, there are significant resources being put into just the cost of those kinds of things and as I indicated earlier, the department and Correctional Services division, in particular, are anxious to see this matter proceed.

As you said, Mr. Trask appears to be home on stress leave and that can't be good for him and it's certainly not good from the point of view that he's obviously not able to do his job while he's at home. Hopefully, there will be a resolve that everyone feels is fair.

MR. MACDONELL: I want to say thanks, I'll kind of stay on this. I just want to say some of what is the past was the future a while ago, so I'm concerned that this go through on a timely basis.

MR. BAKER: Thank you and I might just say on a last note that mediation can oftentimes - not always because obviously it's not arbitration - produce the so-called win-win situation that everybody is looking for.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cape Breton Nova.

[Page 555]

MR. GORDON GOSSE: I thank the minister for his speech a little while ago on the Justice Department and in that, I think he mentioned public safety a number of times. I'm going to bring up an issue that I've been hearing a lot from my constituents in Cape Breton and it has to do with the Sheriff Services. In Sheriff Services do they receive the same gear, the same tactical equipment and the use of tasers, the same as other policing agencies? How is it the wage doesn't reflect the danger of their job in the courts?

MR. BAKER: First of all, I want to tell you that while there may be a distance to travel yet I'm very proud of the progress that has been made in Sheriff Services over the last number of years. Without belabouring everybody with all the historical details, we have done a lot of things around training, uniforms and general esprit de corps, that I believe are incredibly important to where the sheriffs are today. The fact that they legitimately believe themselves to be peace officers with an important job in the justice system is partially a result of the initiative we have undertaken, and partially as a result of a newer, increased sense of responsibility that staff have undertaken over the last number of years.

When the Province of Nova Scotia received Sheriff Services under the court exchange program, they were poorly trained, poorly paid and not equipped at all. Their equipment consisted of a pair of grey khakis and a blazer and that wasn't exactly what I would describe as - fortunately that's not the service we have today. New vehicles, little things like that, they have professional equipment, the vests and safety equipment we have brought in have made a real difference. That is one of the reasons why we made a decision this year, as part of the budget process, to our casual staff, to bring their salaries up. I believe they will be paid the lowest level on the scale for permanent employees, because those casual officers provide a very valuable service.

I can also tell you we are looking at creating additional full-time positions because we have a number of staff who have worked for many years on a casual basis. We're creating full-time positions - that's something the union representing those workers had been pressing for. We're going to be creating additional positions, full-time Civil Service positions, to help address their needs. I believe it's eight deputy sheriffs that will be full-time positions and obviously there are some details to be worked out with the representative union, but we're looking forward to that proceeding in the near future.

MR. GOSSE: I'm glad you recognize all the training they receive and all the new vehicles they have, but they haven't received a raise in the sheriff's department in probably 10 to 15 years. Officers are still going through the reclassification. They have a grievance in right now for reclassification. I'm just wondering, how long before that's going to be resolved?

MR. BAKER: My understanding is that classification grievance was received by the PSC in December of this year, that's when I believe the grievance was filed. The grievance is not that old at the present time. I know that I've met with some of the workers that were

[Page 556]

here at the Legislature and they have concerns about the rate of pay. I've heard - and I'm sure the honourable member has heard the stories from them - about the rate of pay for other positions in government and how they believe their rate of pay is inadequate.

However, I would like to mention that we have dramatically increased the rate of pay for those casual workers. We're now talking about the full-time Civil Service group, I believe, because I get the sense that there's a greater amount of happiness with the casual group who believe they're being treated more fairly than they had ever been before. Ideally, the collective bargaining process, in the sense of the agreement, will proceed forward and the Public Service Commission will deal with their request for a reclassification in the ordinary course of dealings with their union.

MR. GOSSE: Does your department support the reclassification grievance?

MR. BAKER: It's an issue that is technically vested in the Public Service Minister, the Human Resources Minister.

MR. GOSSE: But your department must be asked for its opinion in this reclassification, that's why I'm asking you.

MR. BAKER: We certainly support the professionalization of this group of workers. We support a continued increased professionalization of this group of workers. The issue of what the right amount of pay is to be paid to that group of workers is something that the Human Resources Department and Public Service Commission would be responsible for. We would have no direct position other than we would like to see it resolved by agreement as opposed to having to go forward to an arbitration process.

MR. GOSSE: Has your department been asked for an opinion?

MR. BAKER: I think we're in the very early stages of that process. The grievance that was filed on December 22^nd - at least that's the date I understand - I don't think it would have had a lot of movement through the month of December. Practically speaking, we're here and we're four and a bit months further. I understand there was a meeting that was supposed to have taken place, or will be taking place in the near future between the union and the government. Certainly we'd like to see it resolved. I guess that's a good way of putting it because we'd like to see it resolved by agreement.

MR. GOSSE: I think that meeting is scheduled sometime for the end of May, either May 27^th or 29^th, if my memory is correct.

MR. BAKER: Yes. I know the meeting had been scheduled. I'm not sure whether it happened or not.

[Page 557]

MR. GOSSE: I'm glad that you mentioned the casual workers in that there are 120 casual workers in the department and 65 full-time employees. I'm just wondering, in that sense - you mentioned there would be eight new positions - any idea where they're going to be located?

MR. BAKER: I think the answer is, wherever the greatest amount of casuals are located. I mean, I don't want to be glib because I'm not being glib, but we're looking at where the greatest amount of casual hours are, where the most full-time positions - if you want to call it that - are available. For example, it's no secret that Halifax will be getting a fair number of those positions and a large unit like Cape Breton probably will be getting some of those positions, because those centres are very busy, there are a lot of hours.

[6:15 p.m.]

Also, I know from my experience in a courthouse, there are some people who are truly casual by everyone's definition because, as you can imagine, court work fluctuates tremendously. In the Summer and at Christmas, for example, there is less need for sheriffs. So we certainly support - and that's why we've put it in the budget - the creation of these full-time positions.

There may be more in the future. I don't want to make it sound like this process has necessarily ended. We're going to create these positions, look at what the statistics are, and maybe in the forthcoming years we'll have more positions created to deal with that workforce. We want people to stay, clearly we're putting a big investment in them in training and we want those people to stay. The days when it was in government's interest to just have people go through a revolving mill are over. It's clearly in the interest of government to have people stay. Once you put the investment in training and in people, you want to make sure they stay.

I have preliminary numbers here and these are not numbers to take to the bank, but Halifax is three; Antigonish is one; Port Hawkesbury, two; Truro, one; and Yarmouth, one. There may be a possibility there may be some numbers moved around with Cape Breton as well. Port Hawkesbury is in Cape Breton, of course.

MR. GOSSE: Is it true Correctional Services received a wage increase this year, in the first year of their contract, of 6.9 per cent with the following two years to be 2.9, 2.9 over three years?

MR. BAKER: Yes.

MR. GOSSE: I'm wondering, do you feel this would be a fair settlement for the sheriff services?

[Page 558]

MR. BAKER: Well, through a decision not of my own, the sheriffs are not part of a separate bargaining unit. I think I'm going to leave the issue of the negotiation process to the union that represents them. Clearly, there are issues about being part of a broader Public Service union, which, of course, the NSGEU represents a wide range of people. I can't comment, other than to say that I'm well aware of the amount of money the correctional workers got and I have no problem with that. They were entitled to what they got, there was a process and the process was followed.

MR. GOSSE: I'm glad to hear that because the job these sheriffs and deputy sheriffs provide are just as important as any other agency.

MR. BAKER: The same people that are in custody are transported to and from court by . . .

MR. GOSSE: Actually they receive them before Correctional Services.

MR. BAKER: In some cases.

MR. GOSSE: In some cases. That's why it's important, but being a casual employee, there are some people in Cape Breton who have been casual for upwards of 17 years. I know of one case where a person has been a casual for 17 years, working at the courthouse. You know how it is in casual - there are no benefits, there's no medical. Is there any kind of way we're going to have some kind of agreement that these casuals will be able to move in when these jobs become available? There's no seniority unless you're in the union itself, but what I'm trying to say is if somebody is there for such a length of time, are they the next person to move into casual, how is that determined?

MR. BAKER: I think one of the issues - again, it has been mentioned to me by staff - that has arisen is whether or not the ordinary provisions in the collective agreement would cut in. Ordinarily, positions in the Civil Service are competed in the Civil Service first, and then only if there's no qualified person in the Civil Service who looks for that position is that position competed by people who aren't in the union - in this case, the casuals. I'm sure that's something we could explore, but that would obviously require the agreement of the union before that could be done.

MR. GOSSE: Okay, this will probably be my last question. Is there money in this year's budget for an increase in compensation for the sheriff services? If so, how much?

MR. BAKER: First of all, there is money that is appropriated in the restructuring fund. For good reasons, I'm not allowed to say how much, but there is money in the restructuring fund which is designed to hire legitimate compensation increases for employees. If money was awarded to the deputy sheriffs, like any other group, the first year

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would be covered off by the restructuring fund and in future it would be covered out of departmental budget.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The time for questioning is finished. We'll resume tomorrow immediately following resolutions in the House. The NDP caucus will have 30 minutes left. Thank you, we stand adjourned.

[The subcommittee adjourned at 6:21 p.m.]