HALIFAX, TUESDAY, APRIL 12, 2022

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY

3:17 p.m.

CHAIR

Lisa Lachance

THE CHAIR: Order, please. The Committee of the Whole on Supply will now come to order.

The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. KIM MASLAND: Mx. Chair, would you please call the Estimates for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, Resolution E14.

Resolution E14 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $400,479,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing, pursuant to the Estimate.

The honourable member for Cape Breton Centre-Whitney Pier.

KENDRA COOMBES: Thank you, Mx. Chair. When we finished last night, I was discussing policing contracts.

The RCMP had an increase which came into effect last week. I was wondering what the minister was hearing from the municipalities with regard to all policing, but specifically with the review of the Police Act. What is the minister hearing from municipalities with regard to the review that is hopefully taking place with the Police Act?

THE CHAIR: The honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

HON. JOHN LOHR: Thank you, Mx. Chair and thank you to the member for the question. I do recall that we were discussing this last night. I do have my staff with me again, which I’m very grateful for.

In terms of policing, there are several things that I can say. In terms of the review of the Police Act, that would be a Department of Justice matter. I’m really not familiar with what is happening on that front at all.

I can say to the member that I believe that the Department of Justice is actually up in the other Chamber right now. I’m sure the member or one of her colleagues will get the chance to ask the Minister of Justice about that. So I can’t really comment on that.

In terms of the concerns about policing around the municipal units around the province - absolutely. We hear that. Every municipal jurisdiction that we meet with has concerns about policing.

As the member referenced the RCMP contract, as I understand it, there are two parts to the increases in the RCMP contract. I believe one is, and I may be wrong, but the 11 per cent cost of living increase that they receive. That cost has been passed onto the municipal units.

In terms of the retroactive aspect, the member may know that the negotiations between the RCMP through their union and the federal government took a number of years. There is a retroactive portion to that contract agreement. We have not heard what that is.

I do want to say to the member - I think I mentioned it last night - that there are different layers to this because some of our municipal units have their own policing departments and some have RCMP contracts. I still hear concerns about policing from all municipalities in the province.

The final thing I will say is that it’s my understanding that the contract with the RCMP runs out to 2032. There’re still 10 years left in the life of that contract. Obviously, how that all plays out in terms of what policing looks like in the future, there is time, but it still needs to be sorted out.

I will reiterate that there is concern around the province from our municipalities about policing.

KENDRA COOMBES: Thank you very much. I’m happy to hear that the minister is having those discussions on policing with the municipal units.

I want to switch to the code of conduct which I have been discussing in this House since I got here, and I’ve been discussing as a councillor since 2016. The code of conduct legislation was passed in the Spring of 2021. Under the business plan that this government has presented, it says that regulations will not be ready until 2023.

I’m just wondering, what is taking so long to put those regulations together, and what are the main issues that are taking the time to work out? I’m wondering if the minister, in talks with the NSFM and AMANS, is aware of what’s taking so long to put the regulations together and what the main issues are that are taking time to work out.

JOHN LOHR: The member is correct that the code of conduct legislation was brought in in 2021, I believe, but the legislation didn’t have regulations attached to it. The regulations needed to be developed.

Upon me becoming the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, we made a decision on how we were going to go about making those regulations. The decision was to have a working group with membership from the NSFM and the AMANS, and it’s chaired by Mayor Pam Mood. That group is working hard to put forward a recommended set of regulations.

I know they started meeting on January 6^th and they’ve been meeting every two or three weeks. They have also reached out the Province of Manitoba - which population-wise is a similar-sized province to Nova Scotia - which has recently gone through this exercise. They have reached out to Manitoba. We expect in the next couple of months there will be consultations.

The reason that we decided to involve NSFM and AMA, I think is an important reason. It was really my desire that whatever the code of conduct said, that everybody involved would have some ownership of it. I didn’t want it to be the minister’s code of conduct, here it is. I wanted all the parties involved to be able to say we worked on this together and we all agreed together on it. It’s quite critical, I think, for the ownership of it at some future date.

I’m sure the code of conduct will lead us to some very - unfortunately, but that’s the reality - difficult moments of deciding and having to work through the code of conduct in respect to an individual situation. I didn’t want it to be my regulations; I wanted it to be our regulations collectively.

That’s the reason we did that. It is being very actively worked on, just to reiterate. I expect to see something in the Fall on that, but we’re taking some time to make good regulations that everybody owns.

KENDRA COOMBES: Nobody will ever disagree that consultation with municipalities is always a good thing, and should always be had before anything affecting municipalities comes to this Chamber.

[3:30 p.m.]

My question is: Has the department discussed funding to support municipalities to implement the code when it comes? That includes training and education, support for hiring a third party or other resources. As the minister will be aware, it is very hard to enforce a code of conduct if nobody has been trained or educated or if there’s no money for support for hiring of a third party or even the use of the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

Is there going to be any funding support for this code of conduct coming from the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing?

JOHN LOHR: I think it’s important to note that currently, the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing does training with new councillors. We would certainly expect to see the code of conduct when it is finished - would be very definitely a part of that training - a big part of that. I know that some municipal units, some municipalities have a code of conduct themselves now and they certainly do training on it too.

I’m very committed as the minister to see us do a robust job training new councillors. They’ve got some very important legal roles and responsibilities that they need to know going into their job. We’re very committed to that, and I think we’re doing a good job on it, but we can do better and we will do better.

In terms of what is actually in the regulations and what the expectation is - I think before I comment on what will happen with funding or any of that sort, I want to see what the recommendations are in the report back from the working group. So I really can’t comment on that. We will see that when it comes forward and we’ll make our decisions then.

KENDRA COOMBES: As a former councillor - and other councillors I’m hearing behind me - would note that more training is definitely needed. More robust training is absolutely needed, and no municipality is going to say no to the help in funding that because it can be very, very expensive.

I want to switch over to the Emergency Management Office (EMO). What is the department’s role in terms of critical infrastructure resiliency?

JOHN LOHR: I’d like to thank the member for that question. I can tell the member that there’s a National Strategy for Critical Infrastructure, which EMO oversees on behalf of the Province. The goal of that is to improve communications and collaboration among the 10 sectors of critical infrastructure.

I can give you a few of them - one would be telecommunications; another is finance; and another would be medical, fuel, and food.

They meet regularly. At least two times per year, they conduct regular training for that. So there is a plan in place, and EMO is working on it.

KENDRA COOMBES: As storm events, droughts, fires, et cetera, become more common with climate change, were there any thoughts given to expanding EMO or its budget lines to deal with climate change and the impacts of it?

JOHN LOHR: There are a number of answers to this question. Definitely, we recognize that the frequency and severity of storms are changing, and we’re very concerned about climate change. I know that the member is very aware of what our Department of Environment and Climate Change is doing, working hard on that.

In terms of EMO, EMO works with our municipal partners to assist them, does exercises with them. For example, we’ve recently made considerable a $3.5 million investment in our fire departments - which would be a part of the critical infrastructure - to enhance them.

We also, I believe I mentioned it in my opening remarks but that was yesterday, the Flood Risk Infrastructure Investment Program last year which saw the department invest in five different areas around the province to do flood risk infrastructure studies and work.

There’s quite a bit we’re doing in that EMO budget area and we’re working hard on that. We know we’re going to need to do more in the future. We’ll continue to work on it.

I’m very pleased that we’ve demonstrated such a, I will say, such a strong support for the fire departments in our province with two major announcements recently, which really will really assist them. They are just a critical partner in any EMO type situation or response.

KENDRA COOMBES: I’m hoping the minister can answer this question for me with regard to homelessness and EMO’s responsibility. Does EMO support coordination for getting people who are homeless somewhere safe in preparation for severe storms?

I’m specifically talking about outside HRM and including Cape Breton. Does the office work or coordinate with getting people who are homeless into somewhere safe during severe weather storms - outside of HRM - specifically in Cape Breton?

JOHN LOHR: Here’s what I understand is how this is happening. We’re working very closely with the EMO office provincially, which works very closely with the regional EMO offices, or the municipal ones. When we know there’s a bad storm, they’re being advised, they’re being warned - there’s information being sent out about that before it happens if possible, sometimes, if it’s a weather event. Through that regional EMO, there will be contact made to the provincial government in terms of what the expectation is of that weather event.

[3:45 p.m.]

For instance, there can be contact made to the Department of Community Services or Red Cross if there’s a sense that there needs to be shelter provided, that’s addressed. So we have a standing contract with the Red Cross as a Province, and we work through that. It’s a case of several departments working closely together.

Our department, of course, is very concerned about the same issues. Through our EMO, we’re contacting the municipal EMOs, working with the provincial command centre or provincial coordination centre, whichever you call it, the PCC, which would be activated prior to a storm to address the concerns.

It is really a network of Nova Scotians working together. Everybody is concerned about that, right down to our warming centres and our fire departments. It’s really quite an amazing network when you really see it in operation in the provincial coordination centre, which goes out - a web of information and going back and forth with what’s happening - when a storm event is happening, who needs help, and all of those partners working to see that that help is delivered.

KENDRA COOMBES: Unfortunately, my community and CBRM have never seen an overnight centre open up over the last recent storms. In fact, I don’t remember the last time one did - for people to stay overnight away from severe weather. I’ve only heard of those being able to come in for a warming centre after a storm.

With that, I’m going to hand it over to my colleague, the member for Halifax Needham.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Halifax Needham.

SUZY HANSEN: Thank you to the minister, who - I know this has been a really interesting time for us asking questions.

I just have a few pieces that I want to put forward. The Housing First Association did a report on taking steps together to establish safe, affordable housing by engaging communities in Kings County, Nova Scotia. It was a 10-and-a-half-month project addressing homelessness and the need for affordable housing.

My question is: How much money in this particular budget is going towards this particular riding, and is there time being put into implementing the recommendations in this riding?

JOHN LOHR: I’m sorry to the member, but I didn’t quite hear, and neither did my staff, the name of the report that was issued. Maybe a clarification of the question would be appreciated too.

SUZY HANSEN: It’s the Housing First final report on the Housing First Association and it’s called Taking Steps Together to Establish Safe, Affordable Housing by Engaging Communities in Kings County. It was on addressing homelessness and there were a number of recommendations that were put forward. I know they were sent to your office. I was just wondering, in particular, how much money in this budget is being utilized or put towards these recommendations and is there any time allotted for implementing the recommendations?

JOHN LOHR: Again, I have a question for the member. I believe, from what we can figure out, the member is referring to a Housing First study done in 2013, which I believe would have been sponsored by the Department of Community Services at the time. Would that be correct?

SUZY HANSEN: I’m not sure. I don’t know the details to that piece, but I will tell you that there are recommendations in there that you, as the minister, could implement. I was just curious to know if you had done any of those things, considering the fact that it is in your particular rural area that is in need of housing and has homelessness.

JOHN LOHR: I can say that we don’t take the approach that the member is sort of implying that we do. We’re working across the province. For example, with rental supplements, we don’t designate a certain amount for a particular constituency. We don’t look at that at all. It is application-based. In terms of our programs for seniors or housing, we don’t say there’s enough in that area, we’re doing another area.

We’re trying to work right across the province. The member will realize that we’ve announced a number of projects through that Affordable Housing Commission report - the Quick Start. We don’t look at particularly where they are. In that case, we’re looking at who the partners are and the quality of the project, and how well the project being recommended fits with our mandate and what things we want to achieve.

We get more applications. We don’t always do every application or every project that comes forward. We’re looking at all those criteria but it’s never where or whose constituency it’s in.

I can tell the member that we’ve done a project recently with the North End Community Health Centre and we’re doing things in Dartmouth. We just recently announced a project with Habitat for Humanity in Spryfield.

I know this is a political environment. I know things are political, but the reality is we’re just trying to help Nova Scotians. We’re trying to get them the most efficient use of the envelope of money that we have available to us.

Again, as the member knows, the National Housing Strategy, which we’ve signed onto, says that we’re going to do this in an equitable way that respects people where they’re at and tries to be as fair as possible. That’s certainly my goal as minister and our goal in this department. That question never comes up when we’re deciding where something goes. We’re trying to help people where they’re at.

As far as the 2013 set of recommendations go, I’d have to read that report. I don’t know. There are a lot more recent reports. We just commissioned one, actually, to look at housing across the province, which was a recommendation of the Affordable Housing Commission. We needed to have a better idea of the housing deficit in every municipality across the province, so we’ve just commissioned that. We’ll have that result later in the Summer, which we look forward to getting.

We’re addressing the housing needs. We’re working on it, but we don’t look at it in the way that the member is suggesting.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Dartmouth South.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Good afternoon, minister. I just wanted to ask further to the recent comments about maximizing the envelope of money. Some of that’s going to be maximized in my district - two special planning districts. One is the Southdale-Mount Hope area, and one is the Penhorn area - very different.

In Southdale-Mount Hope, the province is investing almost $32 million, and our understanding is that the developer will retain full ownership of the units. Some version of affordable housing will be offered for 20 years. It’s not clear what version, but that there is no public stake, in fact.

I guess I have two questions because I know time is short. One is, how is this an investment? How does government ensure its goals are fulfilled in this way? This is an incredibly sensitive ecological area. With the fast tracking of this area that has not gone through all of the appropriate public consultation - and won’t - how can I convince my residents that the fact it’s an ecologically sensitive wetland will be taken into appropriate account?

JOHN LOHR: In terms of the announcement we made in Mount Hope, the project with the developer there is what’s a forgivable loan. If they fail to meet the requirements of the plan, the program, the loan won’t be forgiven. That is to be 60 to 80 per cent of market rents. We’ve said that we also continue to invest in rent supplements.

These programs with developers have been going on for quite some time. In fact, I will reference the fact that the member’s government did so back in - some of them are more than 15 years old or at 15 years now.

We’re watching it closely, these types of agreements, and I think they meet a need. We’re doing them in partnership with the federal government too.

[4:00 p.m.]

In terms of the special planning areas, we have previously stated that all required environmental permitting will be done and we are committed to that. All permitting and all environmental requirements will be met. We’re investing money in seeing that those environmental studies are done. In fact, we committed $2.3 million to HRM to get those environmental studies done.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I guess in the last five seconds, we’ll be watching closely. Thank you very much.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Bedford South.

BRAEDON CLARK: Thank you for your time here, minister. There are a few of us on this side who will be trying to get questions in over the next hour, so I’ll try to be as concise as I can be.

I just wanted to follow up on a point that the member for Dartmouth South was making around the special planning areas. As the minister knows very well, three of them are in my riding. In particular, I’m most interested in Sandy Lake which is 6,000 units in a very sensitive ecological area that is important to a lot of people, not just in my riding, but beyond as well.

My understanding in talking to some task force members and staff who have been helpful, is that there is not a requirement to do any public consultation on Sandy Lake, for example, but there is an option if that’s desired.

I wonder if the minister could tell me: Is there a possibility of any kind of consultation on Sandy Lake in particular?

JOHN LOHR: I’d like to thank the member for the question. I understand that there has already been significant public consultation on Sandy Lake. In terms of our plan, we continue to work closely with HRM and with their centre plan.

We’re well aware of the issues there and the park requirements. I think that the plan that we’re putting forward here for Sandy Lake as one of our nine special planning areas, we want to see it advance but we certainly don’t want to see any of the required permitting or environmental reviews not done. We’ll see that. We’re certainly interested in public feedback. As I just mentioned, I understand that there’s been significant public consultation already.

BRAEDON CLARK: I thank the minister for his response. I would just ask that he and his staff on the task force keep as many of us as informed as possible going forward. As the minister knows, this is a very important area for a lot of people, and so there will be a great deal of interest as that project moves forward.

I just wanted to switch gears quickly, if I could. Does the minister’s department track what percentage of home purchases in Nova Scotia are by first-time homebuyers? And if so, is that data available and could he provide it, if it’s not right at his fingertips?

JOHN LOHR: I’d like to thank the member for the question. As I’ve stated previously, we are committed to the dream, which I think is part of the Canadian fabric, that people own their own homes. We realize that the cost of housing is getting more expensive. We’re concerned about that.

We do have a first-time homebuyers’ program, but that is income-tested, so the stats from that would not tell us the type of information the member is asking for. The federal government also has one, and again, the stats on that wouldn’t actually tell us the information the member’s asking.

I just asked my staff if Stats Canada have that information. My staff don’t think so. They say no.

In fact, I don’t know if the mortgage brokers or realtors’ associations would have that, but I kind of think they wouldn’t because it’s quite personal information. They may not have that information. You may identify yourself and - if you think about drilling down into the data, that’s - I’m not sure.

So the answer to the question is no, we don’t have that proportion of the number of first-time homebuyers. We don’t have access to that information. My apologies to the member. I have to say no, we don’t have it.

BRAEDON CLARK: I thank the minister for that. My understanding from speaking with the Nova Scotia Association of Realtors is they couldn’t get it for us immediately. I’m not sure if perhaps it will take some time for them to pull those numbers, or even if they do have access to it. If they don’t, I would suggest that perhaps this is an area where somebody should be collecting this data. I think it’s important for us to understand, as a province, how accessible home purchasing is for the first time. If we see five years ago, if it was 15 per cent of purchases and now it’s 7 per cent, that tells us something really important.

I will do the work on my end as well, but if I could leave the minister and his staff with a thought, we should be collecting that data somewhere, whether it’s within the department or somewhere else.

Just a couple more questions from me. Obviously, as the minister knows, the special planning areas call for about 22,000 or so units. I’m just wondering if the minister can tell us how long he expects it will take for that amount of housing stock to be built.

JOHN LOHR: As the member knows, the potential was that the nine special planning areas would encompass, I believe the number was 22,500 potential units. We recently announced 373 affordable units in the first phase of the Mount Hope development, which I think is a total of about 800 or 900 units. We’re particularly pleased about that due to the location. It’s an area that someone could live in and not need to have a car - it’s close to all the amenities. We’re very pleased to do that.

In terms of the overall scope of the nine special planning areas, there are still approvals required - there is still a process there. By making them special planning areas, we know that we can take months off of the approval process possibly - in some cases years - which is what the goal was, but the approval process is still there. It still needs to take place. The required permitting and developing needs to take place. It’s hard for me to predict how long it will take for the full number of 22,500 to be built.

The other thing that we said when we announced the nine special planning areas was if for some reason one of the areas didn’t meet all the criteria, it could cease to be a special planning area and it might not happen. That is also a possibility. There is still a process, there will still be approvals that are required. We’re working closely with HRM staff on that. All of these nine areas were in compliance, which was a very high priority for me as minister and I know for HRM too. All nine areas were already compliant with the Municipal Planning Strategy.

We weren’t trying to do something that was outside of the scope of what had been identified as potential areas within the Municipal Planning Strategy. That was important to me.

BRAEDON CLARK: I’m also curious about a couple items from the budget that are flowing from the Department of Finance and Treasury Board. They have a significant impact on the minister’s department - that being the new non-resident deed transfer tax and property tax assessments for non-residents of Nova Scotia. I’m just wondering, in the development of those new taxes, new policies, was the minister consulted, or did he advocate for those policies in the budget deliberations?

JOHN LOHR: I’d like to thank the member for the question. I know the member knows that this is a Department of Finance and Treasury Board Act. I will say that it was in our platform, so I don’t know how far back the member wants me to go in terms of the platform development process. I don’t know if that’s really relevant to this.

It’s part of our platform. We’ve certainly had conversations, I will say that. In fact, I think what we heard back from the NSFM, which we passed on through our department to the minister, was that the municipalities did not want to be collecting and that will be the case. We did hear that in terms of consultation back. I’m not sure if that’s exactly answering what the member is trying to get at, but he can clarify the question further if necessary.

[4:15 p.m.]

BRAEDON CLARK: I thank the minister for that response. There are many more questions I could ask but we have a limited amount of time left with the minister and a long list of people. I am going to hand things over to my colleague, the member for Northside-Westmount. Thank you.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Northside-Westmount.

FRED TILLEY: Hello, minister and thank you for taking our questions. Also, thank you to your great staff who are there to help you.

My first question is specifically around Cape Breton. In my office we’re dealing a lot with folks trying to get into housing, both from a seniors’ perspective and other housing. There appears to be a long wait-list in Cape Breton.

I’m just wondering if you can you give me an idea of how the wait-list in Cape Breton compares with the rest of the province.

JOHN LOHR: I can tell the member that I have data from December 31, 2021. The total wait-list for Cape Breton at that time was 883. In comparison to other jurisdictions or other areas, the Cobequid area wait-list was 611, the eastern mainland wait-list was 464, the Metro wait-list at the time was 2,415, and the Western Zone wait-list was 1,577. In terms of if you want to know where you scored, first, second or third, you’re in third place. The Metro wait-list is quite a bit larger, as is western Nova Scotia.

In terms of the number of units, I do want to say that in Metro we have about 11,600 units, as the member might know - 3,500 of those units are in Metro, 3,000 of them are in Cape Breton. So we have a very significant public housing portfolio in Cape Breton compared to the population, vis-à-vis other areas. In western Nova Scotia we have about 2,500 units; eastern mainland 1,000 units; and Cobequid 1,000 units. So there is a big wait-list - we recognize that wait-list.

I can say that one of things that I’m doing as minister, and I know the department is doing on my behalf, is looking at the amount of time it takes to - they wouldn’t use this term, but my term would be to “flip a unit,” if you know what I’m saying. It would be how long it takes from when somebody leaves a unit to when it’s occupied again. Normally in that timeframe there are renovations done, sometimes very extensive.

I think I spoke yesterday about one of our programs. It’s is a retrofit for accessibility, and every year we’re doing a number of units. If we’re doing a retrofit for accessibility, that’s a pretty major deep dive into a unit. That might be totally changing the doors, hallways, space, and all that stuff.

In any case, whenever a unit becomes empty, it does go through an extensive retrofit process, depending on the condition of the unit and the circumstances. We recognize that we need to do a better job of shortening that time and we are trying to do that.

FRED TILLEY: Thank you for that comprehensive answer. I appreciate it. I’m glad to hear that we’re working on - I’ll call it the same thing - the “flip time” because I do hear that is a bit of an issue in trying to get those units occupied. Thank you for that.

I have two more questions, but the first one should be fairly quick. In your plans to increase the number of units, can you tell me - and you may have said this already - how many units are slated for Cape Breton?

JOHN LOHR: Could I ask the member to clarify that question? My staff who are listening immediately asked, what kind of units are we asking about?

FRED TILLEY: The new affordable housing units that were announced, at least 2,500. What percentage of those would be for Cape Breton?

JOHN LOHR: The question implies a certain quota for a certain area, and that’s really not how we look at how these units will come in.

We want to work with whoever comes forward, both not-for-profit and for-profit, and pick the best projects. It depends a little bit on where these projects show up. I mean, we have certain goals. We want to see them distributed around the province evenly, for sure.

It isn’t a specific goal, as the member might be referring to. It would be more where can we get the best possible use of the envelope of money that we have available, the most efficient use, and where can we provide the most units, homes - bearing in mind that we have to see a need. The reality is that we see a need all over the province.

FRED TILLEY: Two more quick questions. That’s great, thank you for that information. I know there was a project applied for and approved, I believe, for New Deal Development Inc. It’s an organization of non-profit out of Sydney Mines who are adding a second seniors affordable housing unit. I’m wondering if I can get an update on where that project sits with regard to provincial funding.

JOHN LOHR: Again, my staff are asking for clarification. For seniors in long-term care there is a facility being funded in North Sydney. Our department has funded something called New Dawn. So New Deal, New Dawn or the seniors’ facility in North Sydney, can the member clarify which he is asking about?

[4:30 p.m.]

FRED TILLEY: Yes, I can. It’s a New Deal Development. They have one seniors’ home in Sydney Mines on Pitt Street. They are adding a second building there to that facility.

I believe that funding was already approved so that may be what you are speaking about. It did go through, from my understanding, the affordable housing process.

JOHN LOHR: I thank the member for the question. I have to say that my staff are struggling to know precisely what you are talking about. If you are okay, we can do a little bit of research and get back to you later on that. We don’t know what, so we need to figure it out.

FRED TILLEY: Yes, that would be great. Maybe we can connect later in the week, minister. I’ll get some more information as well on the specific name and then we can go from there.

To switch gears a little bit, the last question for me is around the grants for seniors and low-income folks to repair their homes. As you may be aware, there’s an income level discrepancy based on where you live. The income threshold in one area might be $29,000. In an area right next door, it might be $47,000. Those two residents could be simply separated by a county line.

I did ask this question in the Fall to the Premier who was very well aware of this issue and indicated that the government was working on it and that it was an active file. I guess my question is: Could we just get an update on where we are with the income thresholds for these grants?

JOHN LOHR: I can say that having been in Opposition for eight years, we recognize this inequity. I wrote several successive Ministers of Municipal Affairs and Housing about this issue because it was a big issue in my area also.

What the member’s asking about is something that we call the household income limits which are set by the federal government. We have very limited ability to change that. In fact, we can’t change the federal government’s program, or their household income limits. It is an issue.

What we have been able to do, in a very limited way, is where within a municipal jurisdiction where there are discrepancies, for our programs only, we can raise the HILs limit. Where there is literally one side of the street to another within a municipal area or boundary - a county, for instance - we have done so.

Fundamentally, it is a federal issue. We’re well aware of it. We’re working with CMHC on this. This is something set federally. There is a little bit of wiggle room. We’ve taken some of that wiggle room in terms of our own programs provincially. It’s what we can do. But we can’t unfortunately change - we have to negotiate with the federal government on their programs and how they set these HILs.

Where there is a solid geographic area of a municipal unit or municipality, as in CBRM, we don’t feel the freedom to make changes to ours, but we have where there’s literally one side of the street or the other within a county - we have done that. I hope that’s clear. Thank you.

FRED TILLEY: Thank you for your time, minister. I’m going to pass my questions back to my colleague.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Kings South.

HON. KEITH IRVING: Thank you, minister. I just have a few questions here for you.

I have the recommendations here from the housing task force. There are 17 recommendations and we’ve learned through Estimates that there are a number of recommendations that you have not actioned to date.

One of the major things that you have determined that you need to do is these special planning areas. What recommendation are you following from this report to create these nine special planning areas?

JOHN LOHR: I’d like to thank the member for the question. The Affordable Housing Commission report does point to things that need to be addressed. I will point to short-term Recommendation No. 5, which says empower municipalities to become key partners in affordable housing; Recommendation No.7, reduce the cost for new, affordable housing; and Recommendation No.8, reduce regulatory and non-cost barriers of new development. Those are three right there.

The Affordable Housing Commission report points us in a direction, and that direction is fundamentally do something and get on with it. That leads us to certain choices - how are we going to do that?

We saw a need as a government to do something. We start with the executive panel on housing. We saw a need to implement that with power to make changes, with strong participation from HRM and strong participation from our staff, and with a chair who had a very strong background in housing and was also someone who was outside of HRM.

This really was the result of looking at these recommendations, recognizing that we are in an absolute housing crisis in the province - right across the province really, but recognizing how key the HRM is to our province, how key the prosperity and development of HRM is.

This is sort of part of the trail. This report leads to certain thoughts and conclusions, and then how do we go forward from there. That of course is our choice, right? That is our decision as government. We chose to take this action. We felt the need to be working more collaboratively, more closely with HRM. Staff to staff, we identified that there were things we needed to change as a province. We also identified that for HRM.

We wanted to know what HRM thinks we need to change as a province, not just what we think we need to change. By creating this panel and commission we’ve started to address some of those things. We wanted to give the panel real power and we did - power to recommend to me and put that power in my hands as the minister.

I guess the question is: Are we just simply in a hot market for housing or are we in a crisis? If we’re just simply in a hot market, I guess if you own your own home, if you’re happy where you are, you might think we’re in a hot market, and maybe I should sell and move, I don’t know. But we see it as an absolute crisis, and we wanted to take strong action across government.

Really, everything that we are doing across multiple departments addresses the crisis in housing. I’m very proud of all of those actions, including the partnership that we have with HRM through the executive panel on housing.

KEITH IRVING: The reasons of reducing cost and empowering municipalities - in fact, the legislation that you have brought in is disempowering municipalities. We’ve heard from councillors the concerns raised by the legislation and the actions of this minister with respect to usurping their power and undermining the power of citizens. I would take issue with your characterization that there is anything in the housing report that supports the actions that you have taken.

Let’s try and get an understanding of where you’re trying to get to. We know from Waye Mason’s website that in 2020, 2,776 new housing units were built in HRM. I’m wondering if you could tell us how many are under construction right now, and what is your annual target for housing units that your actions will be able to attain?

JOHN LOHR: First of all, I would say that the task force and all that we’re doing only applies to HRM, and I believe the member implied that it was across the province.

[4:45 p.m.]

In terms of the data and how many units are being built, as the member may know, one of the recommendations of the Affordable Housing Commission was to get better data. They recognized that there was a shortage of hard information on that.

We just very recently have started a Turner Drake study, a funded one, that will give us better information in the Fall. We do know that there is a range of estimates. We hear from different groups. If you look at that range of estimates, the estimation would be that we are 17,000 units short in HRM, and that number is growing. Anecdotally, we hear stories - and I know everybody hears these stories. I have a friend who tells me that his daughter was not able to find a place or purchase a suitable place, and actually moved out of the province.

There are numerous stories of people whose house is being for sale, asking price $350,000, prospective buyers putting in bids for $425,000, and someone else actually bidding $500,000. There’s a shortage of supply and that leads to increased - you know if there’s a shortage of supply of anything, the price goes up.

We know that we have to address that supply issue. The reality is that should have started to have been addressed two, three, four, five years ago because everything takes time. It takes time to get the development agreements and permits in place. It takes time to build. As I’m sure the member knows, there’s a shortage even in the skilled trades. That’s impacting the ability of contractors to build units.

I’m sure the member is aware of our MOST program - More Opportunities for Skilled Trades - which we hope will attract people 30 and under with a pretty attractive income tax break.

All of that together says that we know we’re in a crisis. We’re looking for better data. Anecdotally, we know it’s real. The data that we do have available from various sources points to a very significant shortage in supply.

I just want to say that it does not - to my way of thinking about this whole issue - speak to the success of HRM as much as anything in that it’s a great city to live in, and hats off to the councillors and the mayor. They’ve done a great job, but we just can’t continue to do things the way we’ve done them. On behalf of the province or HRM, we have to up our game. We have to see more units built. I believe we need to do that to achieve the potential of Nova Scotia.

We hear that and I’m sure the member hears that in rural Nova Scotia, where companies can hire people. There are people looking for work. People want to work all across the province and there’s no housing available for them. Different employers are starting to consider different solutions to it. They are not willing to let their companies be curtailed by a lack of housing. I’ve heard that on an anecdotal basis from some pretty significant employers in the Annapolis Valley, and the member may also have heard that.

What do we do? How do we address this? Well, we get to work and we’re doing that.

KEITH IRVING: Thank you for the response, minister. For your information, there are 6,569 units under construction in HRM right now. That’s a CHMC number. There is data out there to guide the work that you’re doing. I would encourage you to use that data before making rash decisions with respect to granting 16,800 lots to one developer with no strings attached, eliminating the opportunity for environmental concerns, accessibility concerns, and the most important thing that you’re supposed to be working on and that’s affordable units.

You’ve attached no conditions with respect to the permissions that you are giving, the approvals that you are giving to developers. I’d ask you to consider that very carefully with respect to the important work for housing in this province. I’ll now turn it over to the member for Cumberland North.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Cumberland North.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: Can the minister confirm if the department will be providing doubling of the financial capacity grant this year since the MOU is still under negotiation?

JOHN LOHR: I’d like to thank the member for that question. As the member has referenced, in our first year one of the immediate actions, we did was secure a campaign promise through the federal and municipal financial capacity grant.

It’s not per se in the budget of Municipal Affairs this year to do so, however there is a strong commitment on our part to renegotiate the service exchange agreement. As the member may know, that service exchange agreement goes back to 1995 and addresses the flow of money to and from the province to the municipalities and is a fundamental part of our relationship with the municipalities.

As a province, we want to see all our municipalities healthy, strong and vibrant. Part of that will be figured into that service exchange agreement. So that’s the reality, the reason the (Inaudible) municipal financial capacity grant is not in the budget is because we negotiate with service exchange agreement and that will fundamentally alter all of the relationships that we have with our municipal partners in terms of finances. That is my expectation.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: Thank you, minister, for the answer. It might be something just to consider. I think some municipalities are wondering about that - if the service agreement is not renegotiated by the end of 2022, will they be receiving the same doubling as last year.

I wonder if we can switch to emergency alerts under Emergency Management. Can the minister explain the processes that are followed all the way through when an alert is received to when we receive it on our cell phones?

JOHN LOHR: I can suggest to the member that I am told that if you look at the www.alertready.ca website you can see, I believe it is, the national policies on emergency alerts.

What I can tell the member is that about a year ago, we delegated to the Halifax Regional Police department and to the RCMP to issue alerts independent of going to our staff at the EMO. In that time, we think they’ve done three emergency alerts.

In the past year, we have done two emergency alerts related to water advisories - one in Annapolis and one in HRM.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: Thank you, minister. I am interested in the processes for Nova Scotia, not federally. I know our province is different than other provinces.

Outside of HRM, where 50 per cent of the rest of the population live, I’m wondering what the process for them is. Who decides? Is it EMO? Is it the Department of Justice? Is it the RCMP? Is it municipal police? If the minister would be able to table that process so that I and other MLAs will be able to have that information as well.

I’m wondering where the department obtains the phone contact numbers for emergency alerts. For example, sometimes you literally will be sitting beside someone, and one person receives the alert but the other doesn’t. Why is that? Why are some residents of Nova Scotia getting it and others are not?

JOHN LOHR: Why does one person get the alert on their cell phone and the other not? The answer I just got was that while most will get the alerts, if someone is not getting the alert, it could be as simple as they haven’t updated the software on their own cellphone. Not everybody does the updates. That could be the reason, or it could be something that they should check with their own . . .

THE CHAIR: Order. Time has expired. I will now turn it over to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing for closing.

[5:00 p.m.]

JOHN LOHR: Thank you, Madam Chair. I realize I didn’t get the opportunity to fulfill the question, so I just encourage the member to ask me at a moment at her convenience and we’ll try to clarify that.

I do want to thank my staff again before I make this motion. They were here pretty late hours last night and scrambling to get here today. They have been immensely helpful for me to answer the questions of the members of the Legislature.

More importantly, they do a super job and are very committed to serving the public of Nova Scotia. I’m very grateful for that. It’s a really great feeling to be part of a team that is dedicated to doing that and wanting to see all the right things happen: to see the province grow, to people to take chances to work hard, to do all those things, and to just really do a lot of good to help a lot of people.

I know that would be true for every member of the Legislature. One of the goals that we all have is to help Nova Scotians to do good. It’s a privilege for me to have that opportunity. I know my staff feel the same way.

Right now, I know the members want to get to the Department of Community Services so there’s a lot more I could say. I will read the resolution.

THE CHAIR: Shall Resolution E14 stand?

Resolution E14 stands.

Shall the resolution carry?

The resolution is carried.

We will now recess for 15 minutes.

[5:04 p.m. The committee recessed.]

[5:20 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

THE CHAIR: Order. The Committee of the Whole on Supply will come to order.

The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. KIM MASLAND: Mx. Chair, would you please call the Estimates for the Department of Community Services, Resolution No. E4.

Resolution E4 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $1,217,652,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Community Services, pursuant to the Estimate.

THE CHAIR: The Minister of Community Services.

HON. KARLA MACFARLANE: Thank you very much, Mx. Chair. I am so thrilled and honoured to be here to present the 2022-23 budget for the Department of Community Services, the Office of L’nu Affairs, and the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women.

I am so very grateful to have in my presence right now for the Department of Community Services Deputy Minister Tracey Taweel, and Director of Budget and Results Rob Hill; and Justin Huston, Deputy Minister of L’nu Affairs. Stephanie MacInnis-Langley, Executive Director of the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women will be joining me tomorrow.

To add context to the work and programs I am about to outline, I will first provide a little bit of background about the department and the people we work with. The Department of Community Services is committed to a sustainable social service system that promotes the long-term independence, self-reliance, and security of the people we serve.

I cannot overstate the collaboration and partnership that is so essential in delivering services to clients. I want to personally thank the many stakeholders, volunteers, community organizations, the non-profits, and service providers who work so tirelessly in communities across this whole province. We cannot do any of this without them. Their work is often extremely difficult, yet their commitment, kindness, and tenacity have been unwavering.

We believe all Nova Scotians want to provide for themselves and their families, contribute to their communities, and lead fulfilling lives. At times, however, the challenges of doing so can be overwhelming. Sometimes these challenges are economic, a lack of access to food, shelter, transportation. Other times it can be a need for services or family supports - for example, to help parents raise their children and keep them safe and healthy, or a need for services to help heal after fleeing domestic violence.

Poverty and life challenges affect people in different ways. Our role is to provide effective supports and assistance for people so they can live happy and fulfilling lives. The services we provide play a significant role in contributing to better futures for Nova Scotians and improving the overall health and well-being of communities throughout this province.

The department is dedicated to supporting children, those living with disabilities, those experiencing homelessness, and other vulnerable Nova Scotians, through significant investments today that should have a long-term, positive effect felt well into tomorrow and beyond.

The budget for the Department of Community Services this year is increasing by $93.3 million, to more than $1.218 billion in support of Nova Scotians who need it the most - $93 million, this is a significant increase. This investment will positively affect the everyday lives of Nova Scotians. It will support our province’s children, and ensure that they and their families are better positioned to achieve success. It will allow those experiencing homelessness across Nova Scotia better access to housing and to wraparound supports. It will provide more opportunities for those living with disabilities, including children, to access supports and services they need, and to live in their communities.

Mx. Chair, before we delve into the details of the DCS budget, I want to begin today by saying how incredibly proud I am of our department’s response to COVID-19. When I arrived at the department about eight months ago, I knew that the work of the DCS staff has been extraordinary throughout this whole challenging time. They have worked so hard. Recognizing that DCS clients could be among the most negatively impacted by COVID-19, our staff has gone above and beyond to support our fellow Nova Scotians.

Throughout the pandemic, the work of our department has not stopped. In fact, it has increased. We’ve had to be nimble and adapt to a changing environment. We’ve had to be flexible with our time and work arrangements, all the while putting the people we serve first and foremost.

I’d like to point out that every single DCS office across this province has remained open throughout the pandemic. In fact, not only did our offices remain open, but our hours actually expanded.

The staff at DCS has demonstrated incredible caring and dedication in their work to address the challenges brought on by COVID-19. They put in long hours, they adjusted processes, and changed policies. They found innovative solutions to problems and they physically came into the office knowing that Nova Scotians would need their help. They say that a crisis can bring out the best in people and this is certainly true of the people who work at the Department of Community Services.

I believe it’s fair to say that each of us here today shares the same goal - we all want our communities to be places where everyone has an opportunity to reach their full potential. We do want a province with no limitations, a place where Nova Scotians can work, live, and contribute to their communities without any barriers. It is our overall goal at the Department of Community Services to help build a province where everyone has equal opportunity to fully participate in society and to succeed.

A key area of our work at the Department of Community Services is providing support to Nova Scotians with disabilities and their families. Our Disability Support Program is committed to supporting the well-being of people living with disabilities and providing opportunities for growth - whether that’s community living, volunteering, or skill building for future employment.

Disability Support Program participants, have varying ranges of needs, including intellectual disabilities, long-term mental illness, and physical disabilities. This year, the increase of $54.2 million to the Disability Support Program is a significant investment. It clearly demonstrates government’s commitment to improving the lives of Nova Scotians living with disabilities.

It is recognised globally that institutional lives, residential settings for people living with disabilities, represent an outdated model for care. These facilities limit participant choice, independence, community inclusion, privacy, and quality of life. In recognition of the positive impact community living can have on participants and communities alike, government has made the commitment to phasing out these institutions over time. We know that living in a community allows people to be part of a neighbourhood, to feel valued for their contributions, and to have the ability to pursue their lives that they choose.

This budget contains an investment of $16.4 million to continue phasing out large facilities, creating community placement capacity, and restricting new admissions. This is a significant investment in individuals. It is about creating homes for people where they are part of a community and are surrounded by resources that support their needs.

As you might appreciate, while certainly necessary, moving people from large settings where many have lived many years, is not a simple endeavour or one that can be rushed. We have been proceeding carefully to ensure that this process unfolds in the best interests of our participants. To that end, we have put a tremendous amount of work into research and planning.

The Disability Support Program has conducted extensive consultation with the sector, including participants and families, to determine the best path forward. We are also working directly with communities to understand what we need to have in place to ensure success.

I am pleased to report that in 2021-22, 123 individuals accepted services, and 76 of these individuals have already transitioned into their new community homes and are already receiving their new services. In addition, approximately 45 other individuals are in the process of transitioning to their new community homes.

[5:30 p.m.]

The happiness and safety of each of our participants is paramount in everything we do. I want to assure you that as we plan these moves, we work hand in hand with each person, and in collaboration with their families to honour the strengths, needs, and capacities of each and every individual.

We are working closely with each person to ensure that they have a choice in this process. Like all of us, participants who are moving out of these large settings want to be included in picking where they will be living and who will be supporting them. We will also maintain existing programming and supports as participants transition into the community.

It is also recognized that children with disabilities are more likely to achieve success when they receive services at a younger age, and when their families are supported to care for them at home. That’s why we are investing $3.5 million more in the Direct Family Support for Children Program, which will increase support for families who have a child with a disability living at home.

In addition to increasing the investment, we are also decreasing the contribution amount required by families. In addition, over the next two years, we will develop a range of programs and services to meet the diverse needs of children with disabilities and their families. I can’t overstate the significance of this as this is the very first time that the Department of Community Services will offer these programs for these children.

This year specifically, we will begin the development of a Disability Support Program for children and youth policy, specific to supporting children and youth with disabilities, exploring options for the replacement of I.Q. as criteria for eligibility, implement day programs across the province for young people, implement an approach for wraparound supports to families called the Intensive Family Support planning program. Over the next few years, these programs will further develop and advance, allowing us to provide better support for vulnerable children across our province.

We are also making other important investments to help those living with disabilities. With a further $8.8 million, we are removing the cap on the Independent Living Support program over two years. By opening this program to address the wait-list, more people will receive the supports that they need to live to the maximum level of independence and autonomy.

We also recognize that there can be a gap for those with combined health and disability support needs. In this budget there is a $3.5 million investment to continue to move young adults out of long-term care and into community placements. This funding will allow young people to move to an apartment or a home and live independently with people in a similar age range and, of course, similar interests.

This year will also see a $3.2 million increase to the Flex at Home Support Program to support more people with disabilities who live at home with their families. This investment is tremendously important in that it will support an increased number of people, enabling them to live at home.

We are currently aware that the timely construction of small option homes is crucial for moving participants to community. We also know that as more participants are being moved, we need to build even more homes. As part of our planning, the Disability Support Program is developing a standing offer of companies that can design and deliver high-quality small option homes within a shortened and consistent time frame.

It is important to note that the design of the homes is based on inputs collected last Spring from participants and staff. We now have multiple options for the design of these homes that participants and providers can choose from. This process will also allow for more timely construction.

As you would be aware, in October 2020 the Department of Community Services announced the closure of Harbourside Adult Residential facility in Yarmouth. By the end of 2022, all participants should be transitioned into community placements. This is an important milestone for the department and for persons living with disabilities in Nova Scotia.

To accommodate these moves, 10 small option homes are being created as follows. We will have four in Yarmouth, one in Digby, one in Bridgewater, two in Shelburne, one in HRM, and one in the Annapolis Valley. Twenty-two participants from Harbourside will live in these homes, as well as 18 participants from other adult residential centres and regional rehabilitation centres across the province.

It should be noted as well that our intention over the next several years is not to close any one adult residential care centre or regional rehabilitation centre. Rather, we will focus on moving participants who are ready and committed to moving across all facilities in all parts of the province. As vacancies increase in ARCs, RRCs in future years, we will determine, in consultation with stakeholders, which facility should be closed next.

I feel it is also important to note an exciting new initiative that was recently announced as part of the Disability Support Program. We know that it is important for Nova Scotians who are living in large institutions to have access to activities they enjoy or want to try. As they move to community, we want to provide these Nova Scotians with more options to pursue their interests, develop their life skills, access employment, and connect with their friends and neighbours.

To that end, we recently launched a new initiative called the My Days program. My Days will provide opportunities for people to choose how they want to spend their time as part of a community. Forty residents moving to homes in the community as part of the closure of Harbourside will be the first to take part in the My Days program. We are taking concrete steps to ensure Nova Scotians living with disabilities have more opportunity to participate in employment, volunteering, work and live in their community. I believe that our province will be stronger in every way as we embrace diversity to its fullest. This means ensuring that everyone has equal opportunity to fully participate and find their success.

All Nova Scotians want to provide for themselves and their families, contribute to their communities and lead fulfilling and independent lives. However, there is no question that Nova Scotians are struggling and need support. At DCS we work to address these needs through the Employment Support and Income Assistance program. This budget contains an investment of $30.3 million to help vulnerable Nova Scotians.

We also know that fuel prices are currently impacting the cost of living, making this a stressful time for Nova Scotians who are stretching their income to make ends meet. In addition to our investments in our budget, the province is addressing this with a $3.2 million support package that includes: 150 one-time payments to each person in a household receiving income assistance and Disability Support Program participants receiving income support - a total of 38,210 people; $1 million to Feed Nova Scotia to distribute among their 140 food banks province-wide, $200,000 to local food banks across the province, which are not part of the Feed Nova Scotia network; and $150 one-time payments for Nova Scotians who are recipients of the Heating Assistance Rebate Program. This suite of payments will make a difference in the lives of thousands of Nova Scotians who are faced with rising prices driven by global events.

Poverty is a complex issue. It is frequently intergenerational and systemic and is often rooted in trauma, racism or issues relating to mental health and addiction. We are committed to improving the lives of children and families by continuing our work to reduce poverty. As outlined in my mandate letter, as Minister of Community Services, I will work across departments to establish a five-year target for the reduction of childhood poverty in Nova Scotia. But we are not waiting to establish that target before taking action.

In this budget, government is investing an additional $12.5 million for the Nova Scotia Child Benefit for families with incomes below $34,000. This benefit is a tax-free payment to families to help with the cost of raising children under 18 years of age. Putting more money in the hands of low-income families is the most immediate way to reduce child poverty. When fully implemented by the end of 2023-24, this will result in total funding of approximately $16.6 million.

The most recent data from the Canadian Income Survey shows there has been a notable improvement in the Nova Scotia child poverty rate since 2019. Nova Scotia has the fifth-lowest child poverty rate in the country, down 5.5 per cent in 2020 compared to 10.9 per cent in 2019. I share this data with the caution that the numbers have been affected by the income supports provided by the federal government through COVID-19-related programs. According to this data, overall, Nova Scotia’s poverty rate fell from 12 per cent in 2019 to 7.7 per cent in 2020, a drop of 4.3 percentage points. Poverty rates among couples with children fell from 13.7 per cent in 2017 to 3.2 per cent in 2020.

A key component of our work is to help people meet their basic needs and build the income security they need to live independent lives, as we continue to work to provide wraparound supports and services to individuals and families experiencing poverty to help them achieve independence.

Investments in our young people are fundamental to breaking the cycle of poverty that manifests, generation after generation. We know there are a number of measures required to help children in low-income families achieve success as adults. Within the Employment Support Program, young people have access to a continuum of programs to meet their needs, whether these needs be social, mental health or finding employment. They have access to skills upgrading, training, education, and job opportunities to help them achieve independence.

Since the introduction of these preventive employment programs, there has been a drop in the number of new intakes to ESIA in the 19 to 24 age group. This trajectory was interrupted by COVID-19, but the department is once again seeing a decline in this age group as programming comes back online and options for employment increase.

To strengthen our commitment to young people, the province is investing an additional $415,000 to expand the Africentric Youth Development Initiative for African Nova Scotian youth. This began as a pilot project in 2020 and was extended throughout 2021-22 and will now become a permanent program.

Projects under the Africentric Youth Development Initiative were designed by the communities that deliver them and the partnership with the Association of Black Social Workers. The program continues to be a huge success and has supported more than 500 youth, well exceeding expectations of reaching 200 people a year. Participants learned about African Nova Scotian communities as a way to get a new appreciation for the history and resilience of their community. These programs help eliminate barriers so that our youth and our clients can get the life skills, education, and work experience they need to succeed.

We are committed to helping young people build connections to communities, building their self-confidence, helping them develop a career path and live full and prosperous lives.

Another example is the EDGE program, now in its fourth year, which has been expanded to Bridgewater, New Glasgow, Sydney, and north end Halifax. With this expansion the program has capacity to reach 300 young adults each year. EDGE provides youth between the ages of 18 and 26 with wraparound employment services delivered through an innovative one-door approach by peer groups and individualized mentorship. The program is designed in partnership with young adults to meet their unique needs.

[5:45 p.m.]

This job search and readiness program is for young adults who receive employment supports and income assistance. It also reaches youth transitioning out of care and youth at risk of attachment to income assistance. Additionally, the program has expanded to include integrated mental health supports. The opportunity to build community and peer connections, develop life and leadership skills, and gain practical work experience positions young adults for career success and independence.

It is critical that youth see possibilities, see that they can make a future for themselves, their families, and be part of Nova Scotia’s economic success. Giving vulnerable youth opportunities to further their education and gain practical work experience helps them develop their job skills. It also opens young minds to career possibilities and helps shape futures filled with prosperity and opportunity.

Through our Educate to Work Program for dependents we cover half the cost of tuition and 100 per cent of the cost of books, fees, and health and dental to dependents of ESIA clients who want to study at the Nova Scotia Community College. This year, 26 dependents of people on income assistance have received financial support to study at the Nova Scotia Community College. We are incredibly excited for these youth and confident they will attain their career goals. Many of the young people supported through the Educate to Work Program for dependents are the first in their families to attend post-secondary.

Another example is our Career Rising program. Dependents of our clients receiving income assistance or disability support and youth who are in care can gain work experience and explore careers within their community and save for post-secondary through the Career Rising program. This is offered to youth between the ages of 15 and 18, and is delivered in partnership with the Nova Scotia Co-operative Council.

There are other efforts which make a difference in the lives of people we serve. After a successful pilot project, a program offering free annual Halifax Transit bus passes for people who receive employment support and income assistance in the Halifax Regional Municipality is now a permanent program. The pass is provided to anyone on ESIA, as well as their spouse and dependents without having to provide proof of their transportation needs. The cost is covered by the Department of Community Services in partnership with HRM.

The department is now piloting a similar program in Cape Breton. Up to 100 people with lower incomes will receive a free monthly Transit Cape Breton bus pass and subsidized taxi service when transit service is unavailable. These initiatives reduce social isolation and increase inclusion, giving families and individuals the freedom to travel, visit family and friends, and participate in community activities. This addresses a financial need but also important issues of dignity and equity.

We are also making improvements in how Nova Scotians needing support can reach us. Last year, we added the option of applying for employment support and income assistance or the Disability Support Program by phone. This gives Nova Scotians more choice in how they interact with the department, reduces barriers, and makes it easier to connect to the most appropriate services and supports available.

Good government puts people at the centre of all that it does. This focus will be at the heart of the creation of a child and youth commission in Nova Scotia. The commission will be unique to our province and is a direct result of a recommendation from the restorative inquiry into the Nova Scotia Home for Colored Children. Other provinces have child and youth advocates in place, and typically their work is complaint-driven, but the restorative enquiry recommended a different, more comprehensive alternative.

The child and youth commission will be completely independent of government and will be guided by the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. It will help all the authorities and powers of a child and youth advocate, and will, in fact, expand on these powers and authorities.

The commission will also be proactive and will have a wide mandate to review the services for children and youth provided by the Department of Community Services, the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development, the Department of Health and Wellness, and the Department of Justice. This means the commission will be looking at everything from child protection to educational programs, to mental health and addiction services.

Essentially, no area of government that relates to children and youth will be outside the commission’s scope. Over the next few months, we will begin engaging with those within the child welfare system, former children in care, community partners, and others across the province. Their ideas and insight will help shape the commission. I’m very excited about this. The creation and design of the commission will be one of the legacies of the restorative inquiry into the Nova Scotia Home for Colored Children. These learnings guide us as we shape change in how our government serves the needs of the children in our province.

Having a place to call home is something most of us take for granted. For others, the struggle to find a safe, dignified place to live is a daily challenge. Nova Scotians experiencing homelessness deserve a home. They deserve to feel safe, supported and to be treated with dignity. We pride ourselves on being solution-oriented and creative. We seek to find local solutions to local problems, and we always endeavour to work with community and when we craft a path forward. Homelessness and a lack of affordable housing is a problem too significant and too complex for one level of government, one private sector organization, or one non-profit group to fix on its own.

Rather, it will take a focused and sustained commitment to make real change - change that seeks to address the root causes of the housing crisis, homelessness and poverty - and that calls upon all of us to take up this challenge. The province, including the Departments of Community Services and Municipal Affairs and Housing, and Service Nova Scotia and Internal Services have been working collaboratively and will continue to work with all levels of government, community organizations, and private organizations to address this urgent issue.

We know that the outcomes of homelessness are often very serious and may ultimately result in increased use of the health care system, and an increased use in substance misuse, increased danger of abuse and violence, and an increased chance of entering or re-entering the criminal justice system.

In this year’s budget, an increase of nearly $17 million will be invested in new and continued supportive housing initiatives to improve people’s safety and well-being. We are supporting community-based service providers that work directly with people in need such as Out of the Cold in Halifax and Dartmouth. We are also providing more funding for emergency sheltering options and volunteer faith shelters in rural areas.

Specifically, funding will support 10 new housing support workers across the province; the delivery of wraparound supports at the modular units being constructed by HRM in Halifax. This will pay for staffing costs and programs to ensure residents’ well-being, including the cost of harm reduction services. It will also allow for the establishment of a rural hotel model to expand emergency sheltering in rural areas, the continuation of the emergency hotel model in HRM, and funding to support the volunteer-based shelters in rural communities.

These investments will stabilize operations of our community partners across the province, ensure staff are qualified and skilled at supporting vulnerable people, and keep key community resources operating. This is the latest in a series of investments my government has made in terms of addressing homelessness.

In October, we announced over $10 million to provide wraparound supports, shelter, and culturally relevant housing across Nova Scotia. Among other things, this included $4.2 million to various organizations across the province to maintain emergency shelter investments created during the COVID-19 pandemic, and $931,000 to support people transitioning out of correctional facilities.

This included funding for the John Howard Society and the Elizabeth Fry Society of Mainland Nova Scotia; and $713,000 annually will go to Shelter Nova Scotia to stabilize operations, as well as $630,000 to Adsum for Women and Children to launch the Diverting Families program in East Preston, and to pilot the program for Nova Scotians living in Shelburne, Yarmouth, and Digby. The Diverting Families program will work directly with families who are in a crisis due to homelessness or impending homelessness.

Mx. Chair, a first of its kind project for Atlantic Canada is unfolding in Halifax and it’s very exciting. With an investment of $3.5 million, the Province worked with the Halifax Regional Municipality and the federal government to buy the former Travelodge hotel in Dartmouth, now known as The Overlook.

The Department of Community Services has committed $1.5 million annually to our partners at the North End Community Health Centre to provide wraparound supports to those living at The Overlook.

As I previously mentioned, DCS is also supporting a project led by HRM to put 64 modular units in place in Halifax and Dartmouth. The Out of the Cold Community Association is doing a tremendous job providing wraparound supports at the Dartmouth site. We know that they’ll do the same at the Halifax site.

In addition, the Department of Community Services is funding projects that address specific cultural needs. We have provided $350,000 to the North End Community Health Centre to operate a supportive housing project for men from the African Nova Scotian community. We have committed $1.6 million for the Mi’kmaw Native Friendship Centre to develop the Diamond Bailey House. This project will have 21 supportive housing units and 32 transitional beds for the Mi’kmaw community.

As we work on more longer-term solutions, we will continue to expand wraparound services through the Shelter Diversion Support Program in HRM and through one-time funding provided to eight rural communities to support emergency hotelling during the Winter months.

In addition, we are partnered with HRM to operate a temporary overnight shelter at the Pavilion on the Halifax Common, which actually closed recently as of March 31^st. We just announced that we will provide $195,000 to the Brunswick Street Mission to extend emergency overnight sheltering until June 30^th. This will ensure that people experiencing homelessness have a safe and warm place to sleep as the cold weather continues.

Having a home means stability. We all know that. It means you can focus on your other needs, whether it’s holding down a job or obtaining the services you need to get a fresh start in life. We are determined that this should be attainable for all Nova Scotians, no matter what their circumstances are today.

The initiatives, progress, and work to date is just the beginning. I am honoured to serve as the Minister of Community Services and to work with a group of caring, compassionate professionals who are committed to supporting our most vulnerable citizens.

Mx. Chair, I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge our dedicated community partners who are alongside us in this work. Nova Scotians are known for their compassion and generosity. I am seeing this clearer and clearer every day. Nowhere are those characteristics more evident than within the people and organizations who work with our province’s most vulnerable citizens. They have my deepest gratitude and thanks.

[6:00 p.m.]

We also know that finding a home is life changing. We know there is much to do and there are many Nova Scotians looking to us - collectively looking to us - for solutions. As I mentioned earlier, this is a complex problem. We cannot fix it by working alone or in silos. We all bear a responsibility, and we all need to do our part. Working together across levels of government, within communities, and with service providers, I am confident that over time we can address this challenge and make positive, lasting change.

Mx. Chair, safe and healthy children, youth, and families are key to building a stronger Nova Scotia. It is the role of my department to ensure that children and youth are protected, and families are supported.

At the Department of Community Services, we often support families and children when they are in a crisis. However, our goal is to move to a child welfare system that focuses more on prevention and early intervention, and away from a crisis-driven system that requires costlier and often less-effective interventions.

In 2021-22, we continued to develop new prevention and early intervention programming for children, youth and families. We also expanded and enhanced existing supports available across the province.

The Parenting Journey Program was expanded in 2021-22 to include more supports for families who have complex needs. Seven new programs were added in communities throughout Nova Scotia. Parenting Journey is a home visitation program that provides individual supports for families experiencing complex social, emotional, and family challenges. The program is now available in more than 38 communities and includes culturally relevant program supports for Indigenous, African Nova Scotian, and Acadian communities.

The Family Connections program was created in 2021-22 to provide expectant families who are struggling or have needs that put them at risk with additional support to help access the programs and services they need in their community. This program has a focus on connecting families with supports to ensure the best possible start for their children. This new initiative coincided with the end of the use of birth alerts that was announced on November 30, 2021.

In addition, we expanded the Families Plus program to serve more families by adding a new site in the Kentville area. Families Plus is designed to work with families in crisis whose children are at imminent risk of placement in out-of-home care. The intense family preservation service uses a holistic approach to addressing families’ needs and, in doing so, ensures the best interests of children and young people.

The Youth Outreach Program was enhanced over the past year to support increased positive outcomes for youth. Six new community-based sites were added, and the program stream was expanded province-wide for ages 12 to 19 years of age who are in care. The program stream for youth in care leverages existing youth outreach programs to support youth attachments to community and culture, and support adults and peers as they transition out of care.

This year, government is investing an additional $2.3 million so more children and families across Nova Scotia can access prevention and early intervention programs. In 2022-23, we will further expand some of the programming mentioned and introduce new services and supports.

When staying in parental care is not always an easy option, we look to family or people who are familiar to the child to provide care. We know that children do better if they can stay in a loving home with people they already know, such as grandparents, aunts and uncles, or families and friends.

Understanding this, the department continues to utilize the Alternative Family Care program. The program provides a formal and consistent approach for financially supporting caregivers while also contributing to positive outcomes for children. Since its launch in December 2018, the program has financially supported 1,020 caregivers caring for 1,538 children who might otherwise have come into the temporary care and custody of the minister.

We are also continuing our commitment to programming for youth in care who have been or are at risk of being sexually exploited. Now, at $1.8 million annually, this funding provides this population of vulnerable youth with alternatives to exploitation by ensuring they have safe and nurturing placement options. The department has also partnered with the IWK to further develop the skills and competencies of staff and caregivers working with these youth.

Trafficking and sexual exploitation continues to be a serious health, social, and public safety issue. Given the complexity and the devastating impact sexual violence and human trafficking has on our communities, we know government cannot do this work alone. That is why we continue to take a community-based approach to increase public awareness, improve supports for victims, and prevent sexual violence from even happening.

We also have worked closely with the YWCA in Halifax and helped develop the community-based program, NSTAY, Nova Scotia Transition & Advocacy for youth. The program is accessible to youth throughout the province through partnerships with local community-based and youth-serving organizations such as Youth Outreach Programs.

In addition, government supports the YWCA, Halifax’s Trafficking and Exploitation Service System known as TESS. I also would like to mention the Jane Paul Indigenous Women’s Resource Centre, which provides support in the Sydney and Cape Breton area. In addition, the Nova Scotia Native Women’s Association is engaging with Mi’kmaw communities to develop trafficking awareness materials in the Mi’kmaw language.

The online training course supporting survivors of sexual violence continues to be available with two new additions. One focused on African Nova Scotian perspectives that was launched in November 2019, and the other which was launched in June 2021, which focuses on the sexual exploitation and trafficking of young people. I am incredibly grateful for the partnerships we have developed to help combat this pervasive, complex, and horrific issue. It takes the combined efforts and energy of government, communities, support and service organizations, as well as victims and their families to create meaningful change.

We also want to ensure that our staff within DCS have the knowledge and skills to identify and better support youth who are being sexually exploited, and those who are at a higher risk of being recruited. We have provided training to frontline staff from across the department, key service providers, and care givers who support youth.

We also work closely with Mi’kmaw Family and Children Services to better address the needs of Mi’kmaw children and their families, and support on-reserve child welfare services through staffing, training, consultative services, technological support, and placement services.

We want all children to know and feel the love of a caring home. Foster parents are one of our most valuable resources for which we are deeply appreciative. That’s why we have steadily increased supports for foster parents. We know that the foster care system is the backbone of Child Welfare in Nova Scotia. We need approximately 1,000 foster families in Nova Scotia to ensure vulnerable children have a loving, safe home.

As of March 28^th, the number of foster families in Nova Scotia sits at 630. While government has in the past made small changes to foster care, there is so much more to do. The redesign of Nova Scotia’s foster care system was announced in November 2021. This redesign will better support both children in care and foster families. We are investing up to $34 million over three years to create a modern, sustainable system that provides families and children the supports they need to flourish.

These changes include new types of foster care and the level of specialization that may be required to care for children with more complex needs. I am excited about this system redesign and additional supports that will be in place for our foster parents. They are some of the most dedicated volunteers in our province, and their main concern is the health and happiness of the children who are in their care.

The past several years have shone a spotlight on the deep divide that exists in our society here in Nova Scotia and across the world in terms of racial inequity. We cannot ignore the fact that Black African Nova Scotians and Canadians face particular and unique risks every single day at work and in their communities.

Since June 2020, the Department of Community Services has been focused on advancing work on an anti-Black racism strategy. Several initiatives have been put in place, and this important work will continue in the years ahead.

To lead this work, the Department of Community Services has established the division of Inclusion, Diversity and Community Relations. The division’s work includes: providing support for African Nova Scotian staff and strengthening relationships through regular meetings and conversations with senior leadership and within teams; building stronger relationships with stakeholders and African Nova Scotian communities; and partnering with the Dalhousie School of Social Work and other groups to establish an Africentric Bachelor of Social Work cohort program; and working with Dalhousie University to create a Bachelor of Social Work pilot program for department staff who are African Nova Scotian.

Five staff began their studies in September 2020. The department’s work to address anti-Black racism includes hiring practices, new service offerings, policy changes, and training.

Mx. Chair, I will turn my attention to my role as Minister responsible for the Advisory Council on the Status of Women. The Advisory Council on the Status of Women serves to educate the public and advise government on issues of interest and concern to women. We work with communities across government to advance equality for all women and girls in Nova Scotia. The Status of Women office has three intersecting priorities: ensuring that women and their children are safe from gender-based violence; strengthening women’s economic security; and encouraging women’s participation in leadership roles.

Women make up 51 per cent of our province. However, the reality is that women don’t always have the same access to economic opportunity and personal safety as men do. This needs to change. We know that women are disproportionately impacted by COVID-19. This includes their economic security and safety. We have been tracking and monitoring the impact of the pandemic on employment and reviewing ways that we can improve the economic security of women in Nova Scotia, which is of course, tied to their vulnerability to abuse.

The Status of Women office continues to work with government and community partners to provide supports for women and to ensure the needs of vulnerable Nova Scotians are met, while helping them pursue economic security in their lives. We have eliminated provincial taxes on the first $50,000 of earnings for workers aged 30 years and under in designated trades.

Nova Scotia is looking to attract more women to non-traditional fields to take skilled trades studies, and update the education curriculum to help youth find jobs that match the needs of their communities. In this budget, we have added $2 million to continue this action plan in these important programs.

Standing Together has supported over 80 projects and initiatives led by community and government to test new ideas, build relationships, and explore what it takes to prevent domestic violence and better support survivors. We will be bringing together the learnings and insights from this work to develop our plan in 2022. This provincial approach is well aligned with the National Action Plan to End Gender-Based Violence. We look forward to partnerships with Canada and other colleagues on shared priorities.

The principles that guided Nova Scotia’s approach throughout the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls - honouring relationships, keeping families at the centre, and collaboration - continue to inform our work and actions taken to date.

The representation of women at all levels of leadership improves outcomes for women, promotes gender equality and diversity, and is critical to the growth and competitiveness of the overall economy. While we are seeing more women take on leadership roles across all sectors of society, women still face systemic barriers in their journey.

The Women Innovating in Nova Scotia Bursary encourages women to consider careers in sciences, technology, engineering, math, and trades - fields where they are typically underrepresented. The bursary is open to all women pursuing training in these fields at any Nova Scotia Community College campus.

I know my time is very limited, but I will turn my attention quickly to my role at the Office of L’nu Affairs. The contributions of Mi’kmaq to our province are many, and the relationship between Nova Scotia and the Mi’kmaq is important and unique. It is extremely a privilege to serve in this role.

The office leads negotiations of Aboriginal and Treaty rights with the Mi’kmaq of Nova Scotia and the federal government. The Office coordinates consultation between the Government of Nova Scotia and the Mi’kmaq of Nova Scotia. It represents provincial interests in Aboriginal matters, and provides policy advice on how to support the social and economic well-being of Aboriginal communities.

[6:15 p.m.]

I have been visiting Mi’kmaw communities, as Public Health protocols allow, over the past number of months. The welcome from the leadership has been warm, and we continue to share and listen and learn from one another. I look forward to our collective future that includes mutual respect and understanding, strong relationships, and a common interest in building the future of Nova Scotia. By working together to fill the needs of our collective interest, we will continue to strengthen our communities and build a stronger province that is more inclusive.

I look forward to working together through established processes, including the Made-in-Nova Scotia Process, the Mi’kmaq-Nova Scotia-Canada Tripartite Forum, and Chiefs and Cabinet meetings, as well as Mi’kmaw leaders and organizations throughout the province.

In 2021, Nova Scotia recognized September 30^th as National Truth and Reconciliation Day for the first time. The annual day of recognition highlights the importance of honouring First Nations, Inuit, and Métis residential school survivors, their families and communities. Acknowledging the legacy of residential schools is a vital step in our journey to healing and to truth and reconciliation. By continuing to listen to our clients, advocates, partners, and staff, we will ensure that the changes we make will be effective for the people we serve. We know that there’s a lot more to be done.

In closing, I extend my personal thanks to the staff of the Department of Community Services, the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, and the Office of L’nu Affairs for their continued support and ongoing commitment to our collective work.

Mx. Speaker, I am ready for questions, but I ask that questions for the Department of Community Services be asked first, and then we will move to questions for the Status of Women, and the Office of L’nu Affairs at the end of questioning tomorrow. This will allow the teams to transition and ensure that appropriate officials are on hand.

Thank you so much for your time, everyone. I am now ready for questions, Mx. Chair.

THE CHAIR: According to the practices developed in this Legislature, the Opposition caucuses take turns asking questions for approximately one hour each. During a caucus’s turn, the members within a caucus may take turns examining the minister on the Estimate resolution. Only the minister may answer questions. Caucuses are also expected to share time fairly with the Independent member.

To begin the examination, I now recognize the Official Opposition and the honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.

HON. BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Thank you, Mx. Chair. I’ll try to keep it to one topic, but some of these topics are going to cross over. I know you have some of the staff there, including your deputy minister. I’ll try my best.

My first question is just a simple question. How many clients do you have receiving Income Assistance?

KARLA MACFARLANE: I would like to let the member know that as of February 28^th, the number would be 22,244.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: So 22,244 individuals and families who are receiving Income Assistance. What is the average rate for a single person on Income Assistance?

THE CHAIR: Minister, if I can invite you to just signal to me when you’re ready to answer a question.

KARLA MACFARLANE: Mx. Chair, I will use my right hand to acknowledge.

The average payment per Income Assistance case that is the latest we have, from January 2022 including all payments, would be $872.12.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: What is the standard household rate for a single parent with two children?

KARLA MACFARLANE: It is a little bit complicated, but I’ll answer the question directly for what he asked. The member asked what the rate was for a single parent with two children. If this single individual was renting or was owning and had two children or more, their monthly household rate would be $1,013.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: The standard household rate for a single person on Income Assistance if they’re renting is $686; if they’re boarding it’s $608 - the minister is correct, obviously - it’s $1,013 if they’re renting. A single person with two or more children, their standard household rate would be $668 if they’re boarding.

The minister mentioned poverty a lot during her speech. Would she classify those Income Assistance rates as below poverty, at the poverty level, middle income, working class - what would she consider $1,013 a month?

KARLA MACFARLANE: In terms of this question and realizing that no level of poverty is acceptable - and that’s why I mentioned earlier in my speech about how important it is to be able to collectively and collaboratively work together - if we’re looking directly, specifically at the question, we have to realize that there are a number of supports for those who are on Income Assistance. There’s a broad range - not just resources that are produced here at the Department of Community Services, although there are a number of supports for those individuals on Income Assistance throughout our department, but throughout other departments as well.

At DCS, we definitely have a key role to play in addressing poverty, but I just want to remind the member that this goes across all departments. Just in this budget alone there have been a number of investments made. I know that the member would recognize those, and those help reduce poverty. It’s not just about the amount of money that we would provide from the Department of Community Services. If we’re looking at families on Income Assistance with children, we’ve done a number of things here - paying tuition for individuals who want to go back to school.

I just recently met an individual who was inspired to go back to school, and he was the first individual of his family who had an opportunity to go to a post-secondary school. We paid for everything - his books, the tuition, health, dental, all of that was paid for. It’s a tremendous story.

This happens more than once but this was one of the most recent stories. Because of this individual being so inspired by what we could do to help him, he actually inspired his mother to go back to school. That’s what this is all about at DCS. It’s about accepting the reality here in Nova Scotia that there are vulnerable Nova Scotians but that we all have a job to uplift, to support. That comes in all kinds of different ways. It’s not all just about money. It comes in so many different ways. Often, it’s as much as having a conversation with someone and being that sort of springboard effect to allow them to go on to what they see as success.

On that note, I’m ready for the next question, but I do remind the member that there are so many supports. I could take up the whole time and list all the different supports. Thank you.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: There were a lot of things said there. Some of the stuff I’ll say is that conversations don’t pay the bills. Paying for someone’s tuition doesn’t put food on the table. It’s a great idea and I applaud it, but the simple fact of the matter is that for those on Income Assistance their main source of income is the Department of Community Services.

I know you said this is collaborative, but the truth of the matter is the majority comes from this rate and the rate for a single parent with two or more children who is renting is $12,156 a year, which is not just poverty - it’s so far below poverty that the minister would not even recognize it.

The reason I bring this up is - this government is a solution government, that is what they tell us. The last two budgets that came out had the two largest increases in the Department of Community Services Income Assistance history. We now see the largest inflation increase in my lifetime and yet not a single dollar went to the Income Assistance standard rate.

[6:30 p.m.]

I’m not asking about your one-time payments. I’m not asking about other departments. I’m not asking about the YWCA or these other great organizations that struggle day-to-day and help so many people. I am asking specifically about the standard income rate that did not see a single cent. In fact, it saw a deduction because of inflation, so people’s buying power on Income Assistance is less now.

My question to the minister is - and I don’t need to hear about fuel rebates, we’ll get into that later - specifically about this: Why was there not a single cent increase to the Income Assistance standard rate?

KARLA MACFARLANE: I would say to the member that if anyone was to really sit down and look at our budget, they would see that there was a colossal investment in health care. It is our first budget and we always indicated that we would be moving forward, progressing as fast as we could, to make those investments needed in health care. But that does not mean there were not investments in all other departments and, in particular, in the Department of Community Services. I will remind the member there was a $93 million investment.

I won’t go back and say what was the investment made when the Liberals were here, or anything like that. The reality is that we are working as hard as we can to provide services for vulnerable Nova Scotians. Although the member may not want to talk about those services, for me and for all colleagues within the Chamber it is our duty to know about all those different resources and programs that uplift people.

I actually take offence to the member indicating that maybe a conversation is nothing. That actually made me sad to hear the member say that because everyone knows that some days the only thing that sometimes gets anyone or any of us through the day is a conversation with someone.

Again, I can sit here and list - and I think I will start listing the number of things we have done. Vulnerable Nova Scotians are in need of a variety of different supports, and our budget contains a number of measures that would support vulnerable Nova Scotians and improve their lives.

No, they are not all about directly putting money in their pockets, but they are about improving the lives of individuals living on low income. Again, I am proud to be the Minister of Community Services and to have a Premier who directly indicated within my mandate letter that I am to work across all government departments, all levels of government, with any stakeholders, with any shareholders, and service providers, to try to work to reducing poverty. That’s what I am going to do.

Believe me, there are a lot of conversations happening - and a reminder that we increased the Nova Scotia Child Benefit by $12.5 million. It will be increasing to $16.6 million. So I hope that the member realizes that those investments are helping to reduce poverty. Investments that are made in homelessness initiatives to prevent homelessness, and supports - we’re making those investments all the time and increasing our partnerships and stakeholders to help us through that.

I also want to remind the member that there’s a huge investment - I think the dollar amount is around $2 million - in rental supplements that have been made as well. You may have heard that through Minister Lohr when he was being questioned.

There are a lot of ways to help and we will continue having the discussions and evolving. We know things change but our job is to help the most vulnerable. I thank you for the question.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Where to start? You said that sometimes what helps is a conversation. First of all, I didn’t say - and I don’t appreciate you putting words in my mouth - I never once said that a conversation doesn’t help. Do you know what helps every, single day? Food on the table, a roof over the head, clothes, activities that children can do.

I asked a very specific question and the minister danced around it and did not answer the question. The question was: How much did the standard rate for every client, the 22,244 individuals - not just people with children - for seniors, for single individuals living on Income Assistance, who are so far below the poverty line and that this government voted against a $100 increase in the last Liberal budget. They voted against it.

To say that to have a conversation or - you know, these things are good. I have them all the time, but the number one conversation we have is around housing and Income Assistance. When people call my office - and they call everyone’s office and they will call everyone’s office across the aisle - who are on Income Assistance, who are depending on the government to help them get ahead, they’re going to say why was there nothing for us?

What I heard the minister say was, well, this was a health budget, the majority of the money went to health, and we can’t do everything at once. But that has been the view of politicians since the beginning of time. It absolutely drives me bonkers - that health care is separate from everything else. What is good for health care and what is good for the health of Nova Scotians is healthy food. It’s a chance to do activities like hockey and baseball and things like that in the Summer and Wintertime, that if you’re on Income Assistance you have to go through - you are not getting the money from Income Assistance, you’ve got to go through Canadian Tire and those different programs. Thank goodness for them.

The question was, specifically, how much did that rate increase? It’s a 10-second answer that the minister took seven minutes and didn’t answer. That’s because it didn’t increase at all.

The government likes to talk about the $30 million. The Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing was up on this earlier, and another question that wasn’t answered, which was $22 million of that went to one of the largest, wealthiest developers in all of Nova Scotia, for 16,000 units. None of them had any clauses associated with them to make sure they were affordable. None of them made sure that people on Income Assistance could afford it. None of it.

You can bet your bottom dollar that when that developer builds those 16,000 units, nobody on Income Assistance, nobody who is struggling to find a home, for the most part, is going to be able to afford it.

We heard the government talk about - well, these projects are going to be 80 per cent of market value. Well, 80 per cent of $2,250 - which is usually around the average in my community now - is $1,750. People on Income Assistance can’t afford that.

The question I have for the minister - and I hope that we can get a direct answer on this one. (Interruption) Yes, and that’s a good point, half of Nova Scotians can’t actually afford that kind of rent.

The question for the Minister of Community Services - and it’s just a direct, quick answer and I hope we can get it - is: How much did the standard rate for those on Income Assistance go up from the last budget to your current budget?

KARLA MACFARLANE: Thank you very much, Mx. Chair. To the member, I think my point was to stress that there is a lot of good work happening with a lot of people.

The member knows that there wasn’t an increase. If it is his mission to have me on here say that there wasn’t an increase so that he can do whatever he wants with that statement, then here it is: there wasn’t an increase.

I will submit that I hope the member will realize that there are so many great initiatives happening that uplift Nova Scotians every day. All of us realize that we get calls and people stopping in our offices, and they’re coming through our doors in their darkest moments. There’s no denying that at all.

We have the resources as government. We work within the system that is provided for us. I know what it was like when I wasn’t in government and trying to look for those resources. I can’t deny that there were some wonderful resources there. Whether they were implemented or legislated under the NDP or under the Liberal government, I was just grateful as an MLA who could go and pull out of my pocket, or whatever, things to help.

Whether that was ensuring that they knew about the food bank or the soup kitchen that is open every Wednesday, to help reduce the cost of going and buying groceries. Whether or not it was helping them fill out an application to get a rebate for their heating program or if they received wood.

Knowing that the resources were there for me to tap in and say, you’re a senior and you need someone to help with snow removal or mowing your lawn or go get your groceries; knowing that I can help them by sitting down with them and filling out the grant for $500 that we have created since we came into government.

Mx. Chair, I could go on and on about the resources that I, as an MLA, tap into. I was simply taking an opportunity to make sure that we are expressing, that we’re not just focused - I know that everyone would do better with a lot more money in their pocket.

At the end of the day, it’s about us as MLAs and knowing the resources that are there that we can tap into so we can make life a lot easier for those individuals living in our constituencies who are struggling. They all have so many different needs. Some are just looking for food, others are looking for medical, and others are looking for resources to help with their kids in hockey or soccer.

On that note, I’m ready for the next question.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I appreciate the minister’s response. My response to that would be that one of the things the minister just said is that we see individuals in their “darkest moments.” When they need the most help, we should rely on different resources.

The minister is experienced. I’ve been on that side too. When the budget was being drawn up, you would have been approached about what the priorities for your department were. We’re not talking about any other programs or any other funding, but specifically for the Income Assistance standard rate, which is the majority of the money that individuals on Income Assistance get.

My question to the minister is: Did you advocate on behalf of those 22,244 individuals and families that your department is personally responsible to help because they’re on their programs? Did you personally advocate for an income standard household rate increase? If yes, who denied it? If no, why didn’t you advocate for that?

KARLA MACFARLANE: Thank you very much, Mx. Chair. I would let the member know - and I know the member probably knows - I know he had a short stint at being in government. I do recall that the minister probably would no doubt realize that budget deliberations are confidential. So I will not disclose information that took place with many, many individuals.

[6:45 p.m.]

I will say that I have been advocating for vulnerable Nova Scotians since the moment I was elected in 2013. It was the Liberal Government for eight years that I sat in Opposition and advocated for vulnerable Nova Scotians - whether that was an increase in Income Assistance, whether it was to provide more services for home heating, whether it was to provide more investments in food banks across the province, which I know the member realizes as well that we have made a $1.2 million increase.

Feed Nova Scotia has just received a million dollars to share and invest with its 140 networks across this province. There have been a lot of investments made by this government that I have been advocating for, for years while sitting in Opposition.

Again, I will not disclose those confidential deliberations that took place.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: All that advocating in Opposition and yet not a single penny when it’s time to govern for the standard household rates.

It’s disappointing because again, I will say that it’s not that you did not advocate for and receive an increase to the standard household rate. It’s that in a moment of high inflation, they are receiving a massive cut. The cost of food has gone through the roof. Housing’s gone through the roof.

A very simple question: Does the Minister of Community Services know how many individuals are on the wait-list for public housing, and what the expected time is from the moment you go on that list to when you will get into public housing? The reason I’m asking the minister this is because a vast majority of the individuals who are in public housing are clients of hers.

KARLA MACFARLANE: Thank you, Mx. Chair. For the member’s information, this would be a housing question. I’m sorry I will not be able to answer that. We just literally do not have the information here on our hands. We will desire to maybe find that information, but it would be under the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I find that answer a little troubling because I can tell you that the regular list is about five years; the priority list is about three. There were zero dollars invested in public housing in this budget.

The reason I find that answer a little troubling is because when individuals who are on Income Assistance come into our office and we are dealing with her department directly, one of the first things we’re told to do is have them fill out a housing application, and if they’re in crisis, to fill out a priority access. That’s what her department is telling their clients. So they should know how long that list is.

We know that there are zero dollars in public housing to expand public housing in this budget and they’re recommending their clients go to public housing. We know they’re not going to get in any time soon. In fact, in my community the largest public housing unit has about two turnovers per year. That is what is happening in the community.

My question to the minister is: For her clients, the families and the individuals with the standard household rate, when they can’t get into public housing - and we know that the housing market has outpriced what they’re being given monthly - what would you recommend for them to do if they can’t get into public housing and the price of regular rent is too much for them?

KARLA MACFARLANE: Thank you so much for the question. It is an important one because I think the member is somewhat confused, and I think anyone who was probably listening to the question would find themselves very confused on what he was actually asking.

What I understand is that there’s some confusion with him understanding what the responsibility is of the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing and what the responsibility is of Department of Community Services. Even though we work very closely together, I don’t have all the numbers that the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing has. Again, I will endeavour to try to get those numbers.

What I want to speak to is the fact that when individuals come into MLA offices or when they call DCS, our number one goal is to form a relationship and to ensure that they understand that there are wraparound services for them. We can certainly take all their information and ensure that they’re on the list, but the first thing we would want to do is connect them with a housing support worker who is going to get all their information from them. What are their needs and where do they want to live? There is a variety of options.

I would say that is a good segue into the fact that under the leadership of my team here, we are working extremely hard to have a more preventive, early intervention model implemented so that we will not have individuals finding themselves precariously homeless.

I can assure the member that when they reach out to this office - keeping in mind that all of our services are voluntary - we do our very best to connect them with the resources and wraparound services that they need. While they’re waiting, if they’re homeless and they’re on a list to find a home, our goal at the end of the day is to always, always find permanent housing.

We know that everyone does better when they have stability in their lives, when they have a sense of belonging in community, when they have a place to call their own, and they’re able to connect the dots within the community and become involved.

Sometimes those wraparound supports that we provide in the interim of finding them a permanent place means that we may have to put them in a shelter in the interim or we may have to find a solution to finding them a place for the evening. It might be a hotel or whatever it may be.

What that does is that they’ve now made a connection to our department. Our case workers and our supportive housing workers are there to help them move forward. That is our job here and we will continue making sure that those available resources and supports are there for individuals who find themselves precariously homeless or on their way to homeless.

We also have a great program that we started, Diverting Families. This is a great program that allows families to seek out help before they actually lose their home or maybe the place that they’re renting. We really work hard with them in order to stay in that location.

There are a lot of programs out there that we’re working on. That program actually started in East Preston. We have just recently expanded it out to Shelburne and Digby. We’re very proud of that program. We actually just had communication with the service provider. They said it’s working extremely well and it’s keeping many families in their current location. Thank you.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Thank you, Mx. Chair. I do take offense to the fact that the minister is taking some of the low roads here, and taking some pot shots about what I do and don’t know, and things like that.

The fact of the matter is that your department works hand in hand with the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing. When people come into our offices, the individuals who work at the Department of Community Services tell us, and tell those individuals, to fill out an application for housing. To say that we’re misinformed is simply not true. The minister should know these things. This is DCS 101.

What the minister just said was - and she’s absolutely correct - that the wait-list is too long for individuals to get into housing right away. The standard household rate did not increase. Let’s be honest, people are making decisions on whether to feed themselves or pay their rent. They’re being told to go to a shelter

So the single mother of two, an individual who has no place to go, is being told to go to a shelter. But the funny thing about that is the shelters are full. That’s what happens when we call down to the shelter. When we call down to them, they tell us there’s no room, there’s nowhere for them to go, we have no space for them. So you can see where the frustration happens in our offices and with the individuals on community services and where they get disillusioned by the system.

[7:00 p.m.]

They’re being told to go down to Shelter Nova Scotia, for example, and you can’t bring your pets. Well, what do I do with my pets? Well, you’re going to have to find a place for them. I have nowhere for them to go. I find there are a lot of nice things being said, but the truth and reality on the ground is that those clients the Department of Community Services is responsible for have nowhere to go.

I think when the minister comes back with the information - she said she’s going to reach out to the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing - I think it would be interesting if they could also show how many nights and days these shelters are full. You could triple, quadruple, ten times the amount of people in those shelters.

I’ve brought this up over and over to the minister in Question Period. The perfect example of that is just off Chebucto Road, off of North Street - there are individuals living there. I’ve been there several times. I didn’t bring my camera or anything like that, we just went there to help. We’ve dropped off donations. We talked to people. Those people were promised places before Winter started by this government, and they didn’t get it.

Do you know what they got over the Winter? They got their fire barrels and their kitchen removed - necessities. I spoke to one gentleman who said, we’re not even human anymore. They didn’t even feel human. I said, well, has anyone reached out to you and they said there are people and local organizations that have helped, that have reached out. I said, have you heard anything from DCS? Not a thing. That’s what they told me. I’m just relaying the message. Maybe those individuals who are there are incorrect. Maybe they’re all incorrect, but that is what we’ve been told.

We’ll get into some other stuff here. I’ll end off on the Income Assistance stuff. I know that this budget was all about health care. The minister said that herself - that it was all about health care. But I do hope that this isn’t a trend - that year after year after year the Income Assistance rates by virtue of inflation decrease because the government will not put more money into it.

My question is: How many Income Assistance support workers do you have? How many are out right now? We saw that with the health care system. They released their numbers on how many frontline workers were missing. What is the number of frontline workers at Income Assistance who are missing - who are off either short term or long term?

KARLA MACFARLANE: To inform the member, the average sick time across all categories within DCS is 6 per cent.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Obviously, that’s not something that the minister could control. We’re in extraordinary times, especially with COVID.

Have you seen an increase or decrease over this last wave of Omicron? Have you seen an increase or decrease, or has it stayed stable on the percentage of individuals who have missed time, or are missing time?

KARLA MACFARLANE: It has been very stable actually, so we’re very pleased with that. Just a reminder too, to the member, during COVID our offices stayed open. We’ve never, ever shut down our offices. In fact, we expanded hours. We became very nimble and very innovative in how we would service our clients. We knew that it was a difficult time for all Nova Scotians, but absolutely more difficult for those vulnerable Nova Scotians who our department deals with.

It’s a good opportunity - I can never say it enough, but a big shout-out to all those individuals who came in on the weekends to work, and who worked into the evenings - so very proud.

With regard to the member’s question, yes, very stable indeed. Thank you.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I will echo what the minister said. They do incredible work. Sometimes, as you know, it’s heartbreaking work.

I know a lot of people who work and have worked in and around the Department of Community Services. I don’t think anyone has bigger hearts. I think it’s extremely hard work and every day they deserve the praise.

When it comes to children in care, we do know that there are supervised visits. There are times when those children are to be picked up and they need to be brought to appointments but more, I would say, as important is the supervised visits - so having access to their biological parents or brothers and sisters. I could say from my own personal experience, I had five supervised visits a year with my biological brothers and sisters. Obviously, that took human resources, somebody - a social worker at the time - coming to pick us up to drive us there.

Did those face-to-face appointments continue during COVID for children in care under DCS?

KARLA MACFARLANE: I thank the member for the question. It’s an important one. It’s certainly one that I think we all thought about during the early days of COVID, and that extra challenge that was put on families - even parents who were divorced and trying to figure out how they would get to their children if they were in another province.

I would like the member to know that the department here, and the employees here, all went to great lengths. There certainly were times when we had to use whatever was available to follow Public Health measures and protocols. There were a lot of virtual visits. There’s no doubt about that. But with respecting Public Health and the measures they put in place, I will say that our case workers, social workers used extreme, creative ideas beyond virtual technology.

There’s one story I recall of a social worker who actually went out and even purchased a tent so that they could ensure that there was a visit between the parent and the child. There are a hundred stories like that that I can share. Although there were certainly challenges, and there were a lot of virtual conversations and visits, certainly as soon as Public Health allowed families to connect in a safe and manageable way, everyone was back on track.

Please know that very much so, innovative, creative ways were used by our workers to ensure that individuals didn’t go without their visits. We know how important it is to see our loved ones when we’re away doing our job here, and it’s not so bad having to have to connect virtually, but there’s nothing better than being in the presence of the ones you love.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I want to thank the minister for the answer, and you kind of answered my second question. I do appreciate the difficulties. When it comes to those visits, they are extremely important in rebuilding relationships and rebuilding the trust. I’m happy to hear that you’re moving forward. I know you do, and I know your department does, realize the importance of those face-to-face visits, so thank you for that.

To the minister: Could you tell me what the average caseload is for a a child welfare worker?

KARLA MACFARLANE: The number is 23.7 cases.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: The point-seven stuff, and the point-whatever, always seems so strange to me. We’ll say 23, 24 around there. Do you know what the average face-to-face time before COVID, or now, that a caseworker would spend with a child in care?

KARLA MACFARLANE: For the member - it’s a real challenging question because it’s really hard to quantify how much time a caseworker, on average, would spend. The children and families who are coming to us, every situation is so unique and different. We value and respect that, so it’s really difficult to put a number on that.

I can assure the member that our social workers do what it takes. There are situations where, depending on how old the child is, or children, what their needs are, what their interests are, would depend on the amount of time spent. Again, my apologies, but it really is truly hard to quantify that. I do want to let the member know that our social workers certainly do what it takes, and invest the time and effort needed to ensure that they are getting everything they need.

[7:15 p.m.]

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Thank you to the minister for that answer. I know it’s a difficult one to answer. I was just wondering if there’s any kind of data the department may have on that.

Speaking of data, when a child comes into care - whether they are a foster child or becomes a ward of the court - statistically, organizations have tried to bring up some data on the stuff about outcomes and where those individuals end up as adults. We know that poverty is cyclical - it can be cyclical - so my question to the minister is: Does the department have information and data on outcomes?

We know the Department of Health and Wellness keeps personal information on all kinds of different things. We know the Department of Public Works, Department of Seniors and Long-Term Care - everybody keeps data on everything. So my question is: When a child enters in and becomes either a ward of the court or a foster child, do they end up on Income Assistance - the percentage of them who end up in the judicial system, and the percentage of them who end up leading a “normal life?”

KARLA MACFARLANE: Thank you very much, Mx. Chair. This is a lengthy response so . . .

THE CHAIR: Order, the time allocated for the Official Opposition has elapsed.

The honourable member for Cape Breton Centre-Whitney Pier.

KENDRA COOMBES: Let’s stay with the DCS and child protection, shall we?

I’m wondering if the minister can tell me how many vacancies are there currently within CYFS and how many of those are frontline positions?

KARLA MACFARLANE: Just to clarify so the member knows, if they are referring to social workers, they are actually in service delivery.

They can see pretty much anywhere in any point in time across our department, that it’s pretty stabilized at around 6 per cent as the vacancy rate. I hope that answers her question.

KENDRA COOMBES: I am also aware that the Department of Community Services, and especially Child Protection Services, actually has one of the highest rates of those off, due to many things, including stress. I really do hope that we are keeping track of that data because I think it’s really important for our workers.

I will ask this question then. Case aides working for the department have reported serious concerns about their safety and the safety of children who are in their care. Our caucus asked the minister about their concerns and tabled a few documents last Fall. I’m wondering if the minister can share any updates and steps that have been taken since then to address the concerns raised by those case aides.

KARLA MACFARLANE: I recall the member asking me this question in the House and referencing that I had received a letter of concern.

I’d like the member to know that we basically have formed a labour management committee with the case aides and the union and, of course, with management and our department here. They are working collectively and collaboratively together to address any concerns and define solutions and a path forward that everyone is comfortable with. Those conversations will continue to be ongoing.

KENDRA COOMBES: I appreciate that there is a committee formed. I think that is a good first step. I’m wondering, in the interim, when travel is required for child access visits, how is the department ensuring that the workers are safe?

KARLA MACFARLANE: I know this is important to the member. I know that we’ve had discussions before, but I would reassure the member that all safety protocols are always followed. The safety of our case aides is just as important as the children who are in their responsibility when transporting them. Our case aides are trained, and certainly if there are any questions or concerns from them, they are addressed. We will remain diligent in ensuring that the safety of our case aides and our children are, again, top priority.

We did that even through COVID. We made sure that our case aides, while they were transporting children - we ensured that they were protected and followed all health protocols to ensure that neither themselves nor the children they were transporting were being put into jeopardy or compromising their health. Again, we do our best. I appreciate that the member, if she is aware of or knows of any incident or anything that we should be made aware of, I trust that she would let us know.

I would like to assure her that I think between having a recently formed labour management committee that is dealing with concerns with our case aides, that most of these issues are being addressed and discussed, and solutions are being formed collectively and collaboratively together.

KENDRA COOMBES: I appreciate that, because the safety of a worker is also the safety of a child. I’m happy that the committee is formed. I hope that we will see some outcomes very soon, and that the atmosphere of workers being left alone in visits after hours in offices, and not being aware of issues that are needed in order to know that they are safe - I hope that changes within the department.

[7:30 p.m.]

I want to ask the minister about a bill I tabled that added frontline child protection workers to the list of workers who can access presumptive coverage for PTSD to WCB. Can the minister say if this is something that she and the department are willing to take action on?

KARLA MACFARLANE: I would like to let the member know that we have been looking into this and right now Deputy Minister Tracey Taweel has committed that she would endeavour to write a letter to the deputy minister of the Department of Labour, Skills and Immigration and have that discussion. I can assure the member that the deputy minister is looking after this issue right now.

KENDRA COOMBES: I’m happy to hear that. I’ve already started having those conversations also with the Minister of Labour, Skills and Immigration.

I’m still staying on Child Protection Services, but I want to move to the concept of places of safety. In the 2021-22 year, the department spent more than $24 million on temporary emergency arrangements, or places of safety, for youth in care. How much is in the budget this year for temporary emergency arrangements?

KARLA MACFARLANE: Just to let the member know, that number is actually $21.8 million. Here at DCS, we fully understand that places of safety are not an ideal situation for children and youth who come into our care. It’s not something that we strive for - to have them placed in such facilities.

What I can tell the member is that these are concerns of ours. That’s why we have been proactive and progressive, I would say, in establishing and redesigning our foster care redesign program that was announced back in the Fall actually. That investment will have, I think it’s a $34 million investment over three years. This is going to allow our foster care families to strengthen the supports around them.

We know that our foster care families, there’s no one quite like them in Nova Scotia. They give their hearts and souls into caring, loving, fostering, and ensuring that the children they take into their care find what their passions are. They encourage them to explore. Certainly, we wouldn’t be able to have a system in place without them.

Our foster families have dwindled a little over the years. We know that redeveloping and putting together a new plan will certainly - we hope it will ignite more individuals to come forward and be foster parents.

We know that back in the Fall as well, we were very pleased to increase the daily per diems that foster care parents receive. We increased that by $15. I think the last increase by any government was something like $1.50, so that certainly was much appreciated by the foster families. They had been looking for assistance and help, and we were able to deliver on that request.

Again, we wouldn’t be able to do this alone, and we’re so grateful. We continue to have great conversations with them and learn from them - and learn from the youth in care as well - about what the best practices are for us to move forward to ensure that this foster care redesign is going to be successful.

Those conversations are still happening. They’re very important. We are speaking to youth who are actually in the system right now, as well as young adults who are out of the system. We know that by working together we will be able to put forward this new foster care redesign plan and ensure that it will be successful because of all the collective voices involved.

KENDRA COOMBES: I can assure the minister that I’m going to get to the foster care redesign. We can talk about it more at that point, but I want to get back to places of safety. Do these amounts for places of safety include payments for the contracts with Arden Homes, and if so, what is the amount for those contracts in particular? Also, before I run out of time on this, are the workers that are hired to support these temporary emergency arrangements public sector, unionized workers, or are they outside, contracted-out workers?

KARLA MACFARLANE: Just to let the member know, they are private - they’re not public sector employees.

THE CHAIR: Order. It is now 7:37 p.m. and we have concluded our review of the Estimates for today.

The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. KIM MASLAND: Mx. Chair, I move that the committee do now rise and report progress to the House.

THE CHAIR: The motion is carried.

The committee will now rise and report to the House after a 10-minute recess.

[The committee adjourned at 7:38 p.m.]