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HALIFAX, TUESDAY, MAY 13, 2008

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY

2:18 P.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Wayne Gaudet

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The Committee of the Whole House on Supply will now be called to order.

The honourable Deputy Government House Leader.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Mr. Chairman, would you please call the estimates for the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal.

Resolution E34 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $350,875,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, pursuant to the Estimate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal.

HON. MURRAY SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I had intended on introducing my staff, who are supposed to be here with me, but they're actually on their way. I have two new directors here, one to my left and one to my right - I'm not sure which one is the finance director but we'll see. (Interruption) The one on my left.

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Mr. Chairman, I would like to state today that I will be joined by two great staff members: Mr. Doug Stewart, who is the Chief Engineer of Highway Programs, and Jane Fraser, who is the Director of Finance. Like I said, they'll be joining me momentarily. Also in the gallery, I will be joined in a few minutes by the Deputy Minister, Mr. David Darrow; Greg Lusk, Executive Director of Public Works; Kevin Caines, Executive Director of Maintenance and Operations who is here with us today; and Bruce Fitzner, Executive Director of Highway Engineering and Construction. I would like to say, first of all, these staff are dedicated and experienced, and I'm pleased to have them with me today as I address the committee and outline some of the highlights of our department's budget and activities.

Mr. Chairman, Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal is a large and varied department. This year we have an operational budget of more than $350 million - an increase of $21 million. This does not include larger capital costs, which I will cover later in my remarks. My department manages 23,000 kilometres of roads in Nova Scotia and 4,100 bridges. This work is carried out through more than 2,000 dedicated and talented employees in sites across the province. Our services are administered through four district offices in Sydney, Truro, Bridgewater and Bedford, and the head office being located in the Johnston Building here in Halifax. These men and women do a tremendous job in a variety of important areas, including road construction, road maintenance, road safety, ferry operations, public safety communications, accommodations, environmental remediation, building maintenance and construction, and many more.

Mr. Chairman, like many organizations, we are facing challenges in hiring certain professionals. Our new program to support and recruit civil engineering and civil tech students is one way we are attempting to address what we know will be a growing pressure in future years. We launched this new program last Fall and it has been a great deal for the students and as well for the department. The students receive full paid tuition and books, a summer job and full-time employment when they graduate and, of course, the departmental benefits from a new and very much-needed employee. I am pleased to report that we recently welcomed two recent graduates as employees through this program.

We have also initiated an aboriginal workplace participation initiative. This unique program is a partnership between my department and the Union of Nova Scotia Indians; Confederacy of Mainland Mi'kmaq; Native Council of Nova Scotia; CUPE, Local 1867, Highway Workers' Union; the NSGEU; and Indian and Northern Affairs Canada. The goals of this program are to improve participation of Nova Scotia's Aboriginal people in our Highway Programs division. It will also improve links with the Aboriginal labour force, while increasing awareness and readiness for employment opportunities at our department. We believe this initiative will promote recruitment and retention, remove barriers, and support the career development of Aboriginal employees.

Mr. Chairman, we are committed to encouraging Aboriginal participation in the workplace, in a diverse and representative workforce, at Transportation and Infrastructure

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Renewal. I'm proud to say this is the first time a provincial department has been the lead partner in this kind of project. Through this program we plan to recruit and hire equipment operators for both summer and winter operations. This will help us replace some of the 200 equipment operators who are eligible to retire in the next five years. We are now finalizing a partnership agreement with the representatives from all the partners, as well as the Public Service Commission, the Office of Aboriginal Affairs and the Department of Education. The agreement will be formally signed in 2008. In the meantime, we have been moving ahead with the hiring of three new employees from Aboriginal communities in Cape Breton.

Mr. Chairman, we know how important our road system is to our economy and our communities. We have demonstrated our commitment by growing budgets and significant infrastructure developments. Since 1999, government's focus on transportation has increased our capital budget for roads and bridges from $44 million to almost $145 million last year. This investment has led to safer and smoother driving across Nova Scotia, from Sydney to Yarmouth. I'll speak more about our commitments for the upcoming year in a moment.

Mr. Chairman, last Fall Premier MacDonald announced a change in the department's name from Transportation and Public Works to Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal. It's a timely name change for the department especially in light of last November's announcement, which will see the federal government contribute more than $634 million for its public infrastructure projects in Nova Scotia, over the next seven years. Nova Scotia and other provinces and territories have lobbied the Government of Canada for long-term, stable and predictable infrastructure funding for many years. We were, therefore, pleased to enter into these agreements, agreements that will provide stable and predictable funding for many years to come for our province.

Although these arrangements provide some flexibility, we have made road spending our priority. We know that building communities and a strong economy relies on quality infrastructure. To ensure that the funding announced in November is spent in a manner which produces the maximum possible benefit, my department is developing a comprehensive and strategic infrastructure plan for the province. This plan will help us better understand the nature and extent of the province's infrastructure deficit, and will identify priority areas for investment in the coming years.

Mr. Chairman, careful planning is critical to meeting Nova Scotia's public infrastructure needs now and in the future. The plan will describe the state of Nova Scotia's infrastructure and include a review of future challenges and pressures. It will also outline priorities over the next several years, including estimated costs and strategies to address the needs. This plan will provide a long-term strategic approach to managing our current infrastructure while examining options to address the demand over the next decade. One of the biggest infrastructure challenges our province faces is the high cost of maintaining and building roads and highways. It's a big job especially when you consider the average age of

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pavement in Nova Scotia is more than 20 years, considerably more than the national average of 14 years. Moreover, we have some of the oldest roadbeds and bridges in North America.

In the last few years we've been able to make some significant progress in addressing these needs, but we know the demands are large and pressing, including new highway and health facilities. Therefore, we must look at new and progressive ways to overcome our province's infrastructure deficit while keeping our commitment to debt reduction. A recent 10-year transportation strategy report for the Atlantic Region pointed out that the most significant needs at this time are the strategic highways and rehabilitation funding and to restore them to the design service levels. All across Canada rehabilitation requirements are outstripping current sources of funding. The report also pointed to the need for private sector interest in transportation to participate more fully with governments to identify funding alternatives and provide suggestions on policy and regulatory initiative.

Mr. Chairman, we have looked at how other jurisdictions are taking some innovative steps to successfully address their infrastructure needs, one option being employed successfully in other provinces and countries is strategic infrastructure partnerships. These governments are working with the private sector to make the most of each other's resources and abilities. To that end we are now exploring strategic infrastructure partnerships and the possible benefits for Nova Scotia.

In February Nova Scotia signed an agreement giving the province access to the experience and expertise of Partnerships BC, a national leader in strategic infrastructure partnerships. I have seen first-hand some of the health and road projects they are delivering on time, on budget and on the books.

Earlier this year we announced 10 projects that are being reviewed by Partnerships BC, to determine if they can be done at good value for taxpayers through strategic infrastructure partnerships for the private sector. Mr. Chairman, we want to make sure we have the information we need before proceeding with this approach.

The projects currently under consideration are a consolidated court facility in metro Halifax; a court facility and municipal offices in New Glasgow; correction facilities in northern Nova Scotia; Highway No. 104, Sutherlands River to Canso Causeway; Burnside to Sackville expressway, Agricultural College residence in Truro; a refit of the Joseph Howe Building; the trunk mobile radio system; the VG Hospital facility replacement, or upgrade; and a new water supply system for the Harbourside Industrial Park in Sydney.

The criteria being looked at include effectiveness in protecting public interests, market interests, ability to achieve service and program objectives over the life of the project, as well as design and construction. In early summer Partnerships BC will deliver a final report with recommendations on the feasibility of each project as a strategic infrastructure partnership project. Depending on the results, some projects may be subjected to a detailed

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business case analysis that will consider all costs of various options including capital construction, ongoing operations and maintenance, major upgrades, and the cost of disposing of the facility when it is no longer useful.

Mr. Chairman, Nova Scotians expect their government to consider all available options, particularly ones that have successfully delivered projects in other provinces. By examining all options, we can ensure we are making the most of our available resources. We are committed to transparency in the process and will continue to share our progress on this initiative with Nova Scotians.

Mr. Chairman, although we are looking at alternative delivery methods, we continue to make significant investments in our roads through traditional methods. I'm pleased that we have been able to commit $379 million to this year's total highway spending, including capital. This represents a $30 million increase in total highway spending over last year. This funding will be used to improve the safety and efficiency of roads across the province. Upgrading in 20 more sections of the provincial highway system is a priority for our government. In the Fall of 2007 Throne Speech our government committed to twinning and modernizing roads from Yarmouth to Sydney by 2020. Our investments have led to safer and smoother driving from one end of Nova Scotia to the other.

Aggressive efforts to maintain and enhance our vital road links also mean that we have met the first half of our four-year goal to have paved 2,000 kilometres of roads in the province. I'm pleased to report that all the revenue from the gas tax, plus tens of millions of dollars more, have been invested in our highway system.

Mr. Chairman, we are planning on delivering a number of major projects. This year planning, design and construction activities will continue to improve our road systems to twin and modernize our highways. For example, upgrading of Highway No. 101 has been ongoing since 2000. Work continues on the twinning of 11 kilometres of Highway No. 101 between Falmouth and Avonport, and on the twinning of an 11-kilometre stretch of Highway No. 104 between New Glasgow and Sutherlands River. We invested nearly $66 million in Highway No. 101 in twinning and upgrading intersections by the end of 2007-08 fiscal year. An additional $37 million is expected to be invested over the next two years and millions more will be spent to twin from Hortonville to Coldbrook and past the Town of Windsor.

[2:30 p.m.]

To date more than $66 million has also been invested to improve Highway No. 103, including twinning to Tantallon. We recognize this as an important project and are now in the planning stages to continue twinning from Tantallon to Hubbards. Mr. Chairman, nearly $100 million is expected to be invested in the twinning of existing highway and new construction on Highway No. 104, past the Town of Antigonish, over the next few years.

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Special emphasis will be placed in timber bridge repairs and replacement by dedicating $2 million per year from our successful RIM program, for the next two years for repairs, upgrading and replacement of timber bridge rails in the province.

We're also completing the fifth year of a program to replace our aging steel truss bridges. I'm pleased to report that this program has now been extended into the year 2011. We'll upgrade the bridge management system and bridge inspection system over the next year, to assist in the monitoring and prioritizing of bridge repairs and replacements.

Mr. Chairman, we've also recognized priority needs for paving of gravel roads through our Aid to Municipalities program. In 2002-03 our government reinstated this program to pave gravel roads in subdivisions. Through this program municipalities submit their priorities for cost-shared paving projects. Since reinstating this program, we have doubled the budget, which now stands at $2 million per year.

It's also important to recognize that Nova Scotia already has one of the largest percentages of paved roads in Canada. In fact, only two other provinces have a higher percentage of paved roads in this country. The road improvement money program has also made a noticeable difference in improving our roads over the past several years, especially in the rural areas of the province. This program is used to carry out pavement and gravel patching, ditching, shoulder maintenance, brush cutting and guardrail repairs. The program has continually increased in size from the original $9 million in 2001-02, to $20 million this past year. The five-year trend from the Road Condition Survey tells us that Nova Scotians notice and value the improvements we have now been able to make under this very valuable program.

Mr. Chairman, we're also investing millions this year to purchase new equipment to help us get this work done. This equipment includes 19 new salt trucks, nine single-axle and 10 tandem-axle trucks, and seven loaders to assist us in the snow and ice control program. We are purchasing a number of specialty items, including two excavators with brush cutter attachments, to increase our ability to perform roadside maintenance like shoulder brush cutting, and a new vacuum steel sweeper will help us clear debris from our roads.

Mr. Chairman, improved roads and good transportation links are also vital to commercial road users as well. We are currently in the process of reviewing trucking regulations in Nova Scotia as part of the province's better regulation initiative. Truck regulation in Nova Scotia is a complex mix of legislation, regulation, standards, agreements, policies and procedures. The Motor Vehicle Act itself has 40 regulations that affect the trucking industry in Nova Scotia.

A discussion paper is being prepared to identify regulations, policies, procedures and systems faced by the trucking industry. This information will be used as a basis for

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consultation with truck operators and industry sectors to gather their input and offer suggestions for change.

Consultations with industry representatives will be held this June in Kentville, Yarmouth, Dartmouth, Truro, Antigonish and Sydney. Based on the discussion paper and the public consultation, a report will be submitted with recommendations and appropriate changes to ease the regulatory burden on the industry.

We are also responding to the needs of the trucking industry by considering a pilot project for operating long, combination vehicles, or LCVs, on the divided highways from the New Brunswick border to Burnside Industrial Park. A long combination vehicle is a single tractor hauling two, 53-foot semi-trailers. LCVs are currently in operation in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Quebec. New Brunswick has had a pilot project for about two years and has recently announced that LCVs will be allowed on all of their divided highways, beginning this summer.

LCVs have very strict operating conditions attached, including operating only on divided highways, a 90-kilometre-an-hour speed limit and travelling only in the right-hand lane. The drivers are specially trained and must have passed LCV and driver improvement courses, as well as a minimum of five years of tractor-trailer driving experience.

Mr. Chairman, we are examining LCVs for a variety of reasons. An LCV provides a safe operation since they are only allowed to travel on the best of highways with the best of drivers. They have a reduced impact on the environment with a reduction in fuel use and greenhouse gases. They provide significant economic efficiency by reducing the demand for drivers, who are short in supply, and by the capability to combine loads. Here in Nova Scotia they benefit the Atlantic Gateway strategy as LCVs broaden our multi-modal network and increase the competitiveness of moving cargo in and out of the region.

Mr. Chairman, my department is also responsible for seven provincial ferries in Nova Scotia. These ferries are critical transportation links for the communities they serve. The Englishtown Ferry is the busiest provincially-run ferry in Nova Scotia and this summer we will welcome a new ferry in the service. The arrival of the new ferry marks the retirement of the Angus MacAskill ferry, whose legacy will live on in the community. Thanks to input from area students, the new ferry constructed for Englishtown will be known as the Torquil MacLean. More than 100 students from local schools wrote essays outlining their preference for naming the new ferry. We were very impressed by the calibre of the essays and the knowledge and the pride these students expressed abouttheir communities.

We selected two winning essays. The first was by Brian Berk, a Grade 5 student from Middle River Consolidated School. Brian is also the editor of the school newspaper. The second winner was Ella Dubinsky, a Grade 11 student from Baddeck Academy. Both of these students made a strong case for naming the new ferry the Torquil MacLean, based on his

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commitment to his community and strong ties to the local ferry. Torquil MacLean operated the ferry in Englishtown for 50 years. A member of the MacLean Family was involved in the ferry's operation for more than 150 years.

To read from Brian's essay: Working on the water is what Torquil MacLean was all about. Travelling back and forth, delivering goods and people is the job of the ferry. Life on the water and devotion to transport can be equated to both Torquil MacLean and the good ferry. The new ferry will have to live up to his life and devotion.

Mr. Chairman, these talented students will be invited to attend and participate in the christening of the new ferry this summer.

Mr. Chairman, while we work to improve transportation links and infrastructure road engineering, we know there are many contributing factors to injuries and fatalities on our highways. We are taking important steps to address the behaviours that are putting motorists at risk on our roads. For example, far, far too many people continue to drink and drive. Last year a new police unit in southwest Nova Scotia was established as a pilot project to explore new ways to tackle this very serious problem. The Integrated Impaired Driving Enforcement Unit is a joint effort of the RCMP, local police forces and the provincial government. Since its launch in December, the unit has stopped more than 21,300 vehicles at 114 checkpoints. At these checkpoints officers administered 193 roadside alcohol screening tests, laid 38 impaired driving charges, and ordered 45 immediate 24-hour licence suspensions.

Mr. Chairman, while on one hand we can view these charges as a success, on the other it is disturbing to see that there is still a lot of work to do in the fight against impaired driving in this province. Alcohol was the leading contributing factor to fatal collisions in our province last year. By taking these and other impaired and unsafe drivers off our roads, we are preventing injuries and saving lives. We are pleased to partner on this project with law enforcement, as well as the Departments of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, Justice, Health Promotion and Protection, and Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. We will evaluate the pilot project before the end of the year to determine its impact on impaired driving and consider expansion throughout Nova Scotia.

We are also partnering with Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations and the Department of Health Promotion and Protection on a new ignition interlock program for Nova Scotia. We are creating a made-in-Nova Scotia program that reinforces the need for both enforcement and treatment to achieve long-term changes in behaviour. An ignition interlock is a small, hand-held, breath-testing device fitted to a vehicle's ignition. If alcohol is detected, and it's higher than a pre-set limit, the vehicle will not start. People who are convicted of an impaired driving offence, under the Criminal Code, will be able to apply to participate in the ignition interlock program.

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Mr. Chairman, to date eight provinces have an ignition interlock program in place. The Nova Scotia program will be unique with a focus on addictions counselling for participants. We are leaders in taking this approach. In fact, this work has captured the interest of the Traffic Injury Research Foundation, which has invited the Deputy Registrar of Motor Vehicles for Nova Scotia to present our work at their international Ignition Interlock Symposium.

Mr. Chairman, we also know there are other issues that require ongoing effort and attention. Staff from my department provide leadership to the Nova Scotia Road Safety Advisory Committee. This is a diverse group of public and private sector organizations involved in road safety. This group has representation from a wide variety of sectors including law enforcement, health promotion, injury prevention and highways' programs. They meet on a regular basis to review current and emergency topics on road safety and make strategic recommendations to government. They will also be invited in the implementation of recent recommendations resulting from the Crosswalk Safety Task Force.

The task force was established last year as a joint effort with the Halifax Regional Municipality. It included representation from HRM Traffic Services, the Halifax Regional Police, and the Departments of Health Promotion and Protection, Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, Justice, and Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal. Their mandate was to review policies, best practices, statistics and legislation to develop recommendations for improved crosswalk safety. An interim report was delivered in September, resulting in legislative changes that will be proclaimed in June. Earlier this year they delivered their final report, which included 42 recommendations in the areas of education, engineering, enforcement and evaluation.

We are making an initial investment of $300,000, over three years, to begin implementing these recommendations. This includes a cost-shared program with municipalities to improve the visibility of lights at existing crosswalks. The funding will be used to make amber lights at crosswalks across the province more visible by installing larger, brighter lights. Controls will also be reworked so amber lights continue flashing when pedestrians reactivate the signal. It's also funding the installation of eye-level, amber lights at five sites in the Halifax Regional Municipality. We'll also consider pilot projects to explore and evaluate new technologies.

The recommendations also highlighted the need for ongoing education. The task force made several recommendations to help ensure pedestrians and drivers of all ages have the information and skills they need to cross safely. This includes working with the Departments of Education, Seniors, and Health Promotion and Protection to provide more information about crosswalk safety. Mr. Chairman, this report provides a road map to guide our ongoing efforts to address road-crosswalk safety in both urban and rural communities. We'll continue to work with our municipalities and our other partners to improve crosswalk safety in the Province of Nova Scotia.

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As I mentioned, Mr. Chairman, we know there are many challenges and issues that contribute to road safety. For example, last year we passed legislation to address speeding, including doubling the fine for speeding in school and road work zones. Work to implement this legislation is nearly complete and it will be proclaimed on June 1^st. Earlier this year we proclaimed another piece of road safety legislation, a ban on handheld cellphones and text messaging while driving. We are very pleased with the response that this particular legislation has received. It was supported by both Doctors Nova Scotia and Injury Free Nova Scotia.

This legislation was an important step toward addressing the serious issue of driver distraction. Driver distraction is the leading cause of vehicle collisions, whether it's using a cellphone, eating, looking at maps or other things that take your mind and eyes off the wheel and off the road. This year we will continue our work to educate drivers about the dangers posed by driver distraction. We will enter into a partnership with the Insurance Bureau of Canada to support their Be Smart. Be Safe interactive campaign to increase awareness about the real risks and the impact distractions have on driving ability.

Other upcoming road safety measures include proclaiming legislation to increase penalties for street racing. This legislation clarifies language and expands the definition of a street racing offence to help police charge those engaged in this very dangerous behaviour. We are pleased to work with law enforcement on this kind of initiative and to provide them with the tools they need to fight street racing in our province.

Mr. Chairman, we've also taken steps to give drivers the information they need to travel safely on our roads and highways. We are the first province in Canada to implement the 511 system, which allows anyone calling 511, on any phone in Nova Scotia, to be connected to the department's bilingual road information line. By entering any highway number along their route, people can access up-to-the-minute road condition information on that particular road. In December 2007, when we were offering only our 1-800 snow line, we received an average of 278 calls per day. Since the introduction of 511 in January 2008, we've averaged more than 1,000 calls per day, a 360 per cent increase.

[2:45 p.m.]

Another tool for road users are our highway Web cameras. Cameras are very popular with the travelling public and provide real-time, visual information on winter road conditions in Nova Scotia. These Web cams are an important part of our road weather information system network. This service improves highway safety through more efficient salting and plowing operations, and supporting more precise forecasting of winter weather and pavement temperatures. We currently have 39 sites in operation with a total of 42 cameras, providing staff with real-time information that is updated every 20 minutes. We had plans to complete the provincial network by adding more stations over the next five years, primarily on major trunks and routes.

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Mr. Chairman, these are just a few examples of our initiatives and improved road safety for the travelling public. Over the coming year we will further implement these and other measures, including improvements to graduated licensing and development of a comprehensive, multi-year road safety strategy for Nova Scotia. This strategy will build on our current efforts and will target key road safety issues with measurable activities and goals to help reduce deaths and injuries on our roads.

Mr. Chairman, our Public Works division is responsible for building services, including the construction of new buildings and the operation and maintenance of existing properties. This includes meeting changing client needs with retrofits, renovations and upgrades. Public Works is also responsible for the corporate delivery and management of government-wide information technology and telecommunication services. We keep government and Nova Scotians connected on-line, processing 38 million inbound e-mails and blocking 16,000 viruses and 36 million spam messages per month.

This important government service is responsible for the care and operation of 2,200 structures across Nova Scotia, including 25 provincial buildings and courthouses. Staff also manage 13 industrial parks and eight water utilities. Public Works also builds, upgrades and maintains schools, and special projects such as continuing care homes, justice centres, other provincial facilities and service buildings for government departments and agencies.

Work this year includes continuation of the Lunenburg Provincial Building, Government House, the Lunenburg Justice Centre and the Yarmouth Justice Centre. Public Works is also responsible for the delivery of new schools and major school renovation projects included in the Department of Education capital program.

Mr. Chairman, Nova Scotia can be proud of its public procurement system. This province has become a leader in open, transparent and accountable purchasing practices, and we are committed to building on that tradition. We have developed this capability by ensuring our practices are up to date through a recent review of procurement procedures. We recognized that landlords may have experienced some uncertainty regarding how we evaluate the full cost and make decisions when we tender to rent space. While our practices were consistent with those used elsewhere in the country, we felt they were not clear enough and could be improved. A working group was established to take on a review of our practices, including consultation with private landlords, the Department of Justice, Procurement Services and the Auditor General's Office. Through this review, we have instituted new and clear terms governing how space tenders are called and evaluated.

Mr. Chairman, we believe these improvements will make it easier for Nova Scotia property owners to do business with government. We look forward to ongoing suggestions from all sectors on how we can continue to deliver on our commitment to be fair, open and accountable.

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We bring this same dedication to improvements to our efforts to make our public buildings more accessible. All citizens need to have access to essential public services. The province has committed to making all government buildings that regularly provide public services accessible by the year 2020. While the numbers of facilities and their age present challenges, we are making progress. Not only is the province assuring that all new buildings and major renovations are made fully accessible, we have also dedicated $300,000 per year to do smaller accessibility improvements. We are also in the process of finalizing accessibility guides and standards that will lay out what we expect for access in our properties, whether we own or rent. This will ensure that our contractors and landlords know exactly what is expected of them regarding accessibility.

Mr. Chairman, it's important that the public is confident they are getting the best possible value when we spend their hard-earned tax dollars. Nowhere is this more true than when we put up a new building or renovate an old one. As government, we need to make sure we get it right. This means continually working to strike a balance between modern, attractive and comfortable buildings that are also cost-conscious and an efficient use of tax dollars. So we're always working to make sure we strike the right balance, as I said.

A big part of managing the cost of a building over its life are design standards. This year we have contracted with a respected Nova Scotia engineering firm, O'Halloran Campbell, ADI, to carry out our value audit of our design standards to make sure they're at the right level to ensure we're getting good value. They are consulting industry experts, other jurisdictions and our construction sector to critically evaluate how we manage in this area, and will issue a report this summer. We will take appropriate steps based on those recommendations.

Mr. Chairman, our department is also responsible for the vital communication link among emergency personnel in Nova Scotia. Through the Public Safety and Field Communications Office, staff work to enhance public safety and responses to emergencies. The Trunk Mobile Radio System links emergency services within 400 organizations in the province including police, emergency management, fire services and any others. This year, $1 million has been designated to begin a complete updating of this radio system, which provides radio services for 10,000 first responders.

Mr. Chairman, in doing all this work, we are very conscious of our need to be environmentally responsible. In fact, my department has developed considerable experience and expertise in green building and energy-efficient designs. This will help ensure that the government is a leader in clean and green.

We have already incorporated several sustainability initiatives into our operations. These include adopting the Fleet Smart Program, instituting a Salt Management Plan, using pavement recycling methods to reduce the amount of new aggregates and greenhouse gas

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production in our repaving operations, and designing all new buildings to leadership and energy and environmental designed standards.

In fact, Mr. Chairman, we were recently pleased to learn that one of our schools has become the first building in Nova Scotia to achieve a silver designation in the Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design program. (Applause) This is a real honour for the men and women who worked on the school and ensures a healthy physical environment for students and staff. We are committed to this new way of doing business in all our operations and have formed a sustainability committee to coordinate our efforts. Through this committee we'll be exploring new measures to help them make sure we build, maintain and operate our buildings in an environmentally responsible way, and that we work toward a more sustainable transportation system.

Mr. Chairman, as Minister responsible for the Sydney Tar Ponds Agency, I'm also pleased to provide you with an update on their activities and plans for the coming year. The countdown has begun on 10 construction activities to be tendered for the cleanup of the Sydney tar ponds and coke ovens sites between now and March 2009. These tenders represent about $100 million in projects to get underway before the end of the current fiscal year. The first tender, which closes May 14^th, is for a multi-million dollar material processing facility designed to effectively and efficiently handle debris material recovered during cleanup activities. It will also serve as a central location for cleaning construction vehicles before they enter public streets.

Mr. Chairman, the province has committed $120 million to this important remediation project, one that has shown tangible success with the completion of the cooling pond project in April. I'm pleased to say that the cooling pond was the first Aboriginal set-aside project in the province, meaning the work was only open to Aboriginal-owned and operated companies. The province has also established two Crown Corporations to focus on cleanup of the former Sysco site and commercial redevelopment.

Mr. Chairman, this is helping us get the job done on time and on budget. Nova Scotia Lands Incorporated will complete the environmental remediation of the former Sysco site. They'll then be transferred to Harbourside Commercial Park. Decommissioning of the former Sysco plant facility is basically complete. Whole structures are 100 per cent demolished. Other buildings have been refurbished. The site cleanup is well underway and tenants are choosing to locate in the commercial park. The Harbourside Commercial Park will manage the land that has been remediated, and related buildings and leases, becoming a self-sufficient corporation with a positive impact on the economic development of the local area.

There has been considerable interest in a commercial park even though the site is not yet completely developed. Harbourside currently has 18 tenants with a new building under construction. The current tenants include Provincial Energy Ventures, Safety Check, Mill Creek Environmental, Myles MacLean Automotive, Air Liquide Canada, Offshore Technical

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Services, All-Tech Environmental, Wentworth Environmental and several other important tenants. In addition, with the completion of roads now under construction, an additional 30 acres of land will be available for development by year's end. Nova Scotia Lands will also be involved in the future remediation of other former Sysco properties.

Mr. Chairman, as I've outlined, we're committed to improving Nova Scotia roads and infrastructure and we're making significant investments. Infrastructure is the backbone of Nova Scotia's economy and it's what keeps our communities going. Safe roads and upgrades to our transportation and communication links, all of these things strengthen Nova Scotia in our prosperity. We are working with municipal and federal partners, and we're exploring innovative methods of delivering much-needed infrastructure to Nova Scotians. I can assure you and all members of this House that these efforts and this commitment will continue. I would like to take the opportunity again to thank you for the opportunity for opening remarks.

I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, that now we are joined by the two individuals I indicated in the beginning, they're now with us, so now I look forward to questions from the Opposition.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Queens.

MS. VICKI CONRAD: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the minister for giving his opening remarks. I also want to especially thank department staff and all department staff across the province, because I know all staff members with the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal face many, many challenges every day and throughout the year in meeting all of the needs of the department. I know sometimes you don't get enough kudos for all of the great work you do.

You're absolutely right, infrastructure across this province is certainly the backbone to our economy. Not only is it the backbone to our economy, but it certainly provides the lifeline for many residents linking our communities together. We know many residents, while they have an appreciation for the work that's done on the highways and within the public buildings of this province, they still don't have a complete, clear picture of how some of that work gets done.

Over the next hour or so, the next couple of hours and the next couple of days, I want to speak to a number of issues within the department and I have many questions and many different categories. Please bear with me, I'll try to make everything a little succinct and in some type of order.

I want to talk about the commitment in the budget for our roads. Everyone knows that all roads can't be fixed this year, especially with the increasing costs of fuel, labour and the raw materials, especially asphalt. However, no matter what roads are chosen to repair, there

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are always questions how roads are chosen. The sad part is, in years past, it would appear that politics and paving were thought to go hand in hand in this province, and I say in years past.

Whether or not that's true, we do know that many roads that were paved in years past, unfortunately, were built with little or no foundation underneath the road base. We see those types of roads all through, especially rural Nova Scotia where pavement or asphalt was put down, whether or not the traffic volumes dictated that a paved road should be the priority for that particular area. But unfortunately road base, or the foundations, weren't built up to support the asphalt that currently is part of many of our roads across Nova Scotia.

Many residents have taken me on some of these roads in the riding of Queens, and you can clearly tell the difference between roads that had a built, solid base. I'm not suggesting for a moment that the expertise, or the design, wasn't looked at, but perhaps more thought could have, in years past, been put into building up more solid foundations for some of these roads. I'm not sure exactly how some of those roads got paved the way they did, but I have driven on many of them and residents point it out and say, you see that road, there was never a foundation put there, they just came in one day and rolled out asphalt. I'm just making those particular comments.

We know the government wants to pave 425 kilometres this year. With the many tenders already announced, I wonder, could you go through how the department selects roads?

[3:00 p.m.]

MR. SCOTT: Thank you very much for your opening comments. I appreciate your kind words about the department staff because I truly believe that we are served very well by staff here in Halifax, but as well, across this province. I know you appreciate it and I know all members here do as well, so thank you for that.

The question around how roads are selected, I just want to go back a little bit. You mentioned about roadbeds and I think you heard me say in my opening comments that we have some of the oldest roadbeds in North America, right here in Nova Scotia. That, in itself, creates tremendous challenges for my department, for the staff and for our ability to actually be able to address that.

I can't speak as to how, in years gone by, in different areas - you mentioned some roads were paved and you wondered how the paving falls. I guess we are where we are, as I said as well, our pavement in this province is older than the average in this country, so those two issues there create tremendous challenges for the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal and for the staff.

[Page 508]

Through the budget process you're given x number of dollars to have work done. It's a real challenge to spread those dollars out and try to get as much work done as we can. Keep in mind, we do want to get good value for the dollar.

The member asked about how certain roads are chosen. Each district, through their area managers and OS's, would be asked to submit their priorities, which would then flow through the district and on through to Halifax and then the decision would be made in regard to a list province-wide. I will say, while I have the opportunity, that all members in this House, all jurisdictions that have roads that are provincial jurisdictions will see tenders for road paving this year. That's all of them. Again, there are a lot of challenges we face in regard to how much road work we can actually get done. The Premier has made a commitment, in four years, to repave or redo 2,000 kilometres. That, in itself, is quite a commitment and I applaud the Premier for that, and I have had a lot of discussions about that, and we believe that Nova Scotians expect that.

So the commitment has been made. The decision on which roads will be done are based on the condition the road is in, the type of traffic and the amount of traffic that's on a particular road, the serviceability of a road and then, from that, the decision is made as to what type of a project will be completed. There are various ways that highways can be repaved in this province. So based on the condition of the road itself and those things I just mentioned, then the decision is made from there by staff, department staff, as to what type of a project will be done in regard to repaving that road.

I know there have been some questions asked around certain types of processes, and I can tell the honourable member that some processes are actually under review right now within the department in conjunction with the Nova Scotia Road Builders. I believe it's a fair process, the way it is determined, of which roads across the province will be addressed; I believe it's fair in regard to areas of the province and I believe it is fair in regard to information that we received back from department staff. They are the experts out in the field; they know best, the areas.

The other thing I want to mention as well, I tried to take advantage of the opportunity to meet with all of the members of the Legislature that I possibly could to get some ideas and feedback from the members, as well, in regard to roads in their ridings. I don't think there is any better gauge of roads in a riding than people themselves. I think that MLAs, on a regular basis - I know I do and I know the member opposite, because we have talked about it - constituents on a regular basis either call, write letters, come to your office or write directly to us here in the department and bring forward concerns they have about particular roads in their own communities. So I think it's very valuable information that we receive from constituents and from members of the Legislature, as well. I believe it's a fair process in place in this province and I think it serves the needs of Nova Scotians well.

[Page 509]

MS. CONRAD: Thank you for your response. I do know we've met, and I appreciate that, and certainly I've had discussions with other members of the department's staff over the past - well, actually, it's almost two years now since being in this seat. Unfortunately, some of our wants in Queens haven't been addressed. However, I know that it's not possible to address all concerns, and we certainly have seen a continuation of the project on Route 8, which is a very important route in the riding of Queens. However, we have a lot of those secondary road needs that I'm hoping will be addressed over the next coming year.

I know that the department has certainly planned all of the roadwork season well in advance and that tenders will continue to be called over this summer. Would it be possible to have this year's road work plan tabled in the House that is broken down by riding?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, to the honourable member, at this point I can compile a list of tenders that have already been called, and you are probably well aware of that anyway. Prospective projects, or proposed projects, throughout the season will change. I'm sure the member will appreciate this, that as petroleum products increase, so does the cost of the liquid asphalt, which will have an effect on our projects. Also, with the increase in fuel, that means that the truckers of this province, because of the fuel adjustment clause that we have in our agreement with them, it will have an effect on that, as well with the Nova Scotia Road Builders.

I really only can commit to providing what tenders have been called so far this year. Again, the projects that will be called for the rest of the season, I guess basically, are moving targets. The ones that have been called already, we can, and the ones in the future, we'll just have to wait and see, after the budget deliberations, where we go from there as a result of where the budget was allocated.

MS. CONRAD: Thank you. Could you clarify that just a little bit more? With increases in fuel costs and asphalt prices, those sorts of things may change a project because of the kilometres involved in that particular project. What would be the difference between one project that perhaps could be on a list, and then that changes to another tender or project because of those reasons you suggest? Is it because the kilometres are not as many or what other factors would be in that decision?

MR. SCOTT: Sorry, what I meant to say was, for example, with the increasing fuel costs, we have an agreement with the Truckers Association of Nova Scotia, there's a base rate of at least $1 a litre. If fuel goes up over that, there's a fuel adjustment clause in there that would mean we would actually end up paying the Truckers Association more dollars.

What I meant to say was that we have a fixed budget with regard to capital, so the number of kilometres and the amount of paving that gets done, a lot of it will be determined by, for example, the cost of asphalt and the cost of fuel. That will change as a result of those increasing costs.

[Page 510]

MS. CONRAD: With that clarification, why would the department not just read that particular project, not change the project completely, but readjust it to - say, for example, a tender was being proposed for eight kilometres of a particular section of highway, and because of the cost fluctuations, rather than change the whole project, could you not adjust it to perhaps six kilometres as opposed to eight kilometres? That's just a very quick example.

MR. SCOTT: Thank you to the honourable member. In fact, that could happen. There may be some cases where, if it's an eight-kilometre tender, for example, it may get reduced to six. One thing I've learned since being in the department in a short, few months, is that one thing about tenders is if you go on too small a tender for an area, then it actually ends up costing more than if you put out a bigger project.

The other thing we're dealing with is, there may be specific projects that need to be started in certain areas, for example, an intersection, or it may be a piece of road that's going to complete a project. Maybe it was a four-year plan and there are six kilometres left to complete it, so to reduce that to four wouldn't make sense.

The other thing is that we're also dealing with the federal government. Obviously, we have a commitment for matching provincial dollars for a lot of projects, so we're dealing with more than just actual repaving of highways. It could be other structures, 100-Series Highways, construction of 100-Series roads and bridges as well. There are a lot of other variables and issues that have an effect on the amount of projects we're able to do, which projects and part of that, obviously, is increasing costs.

MS. CONRAD: That explanation does make sense in terms of a smaller project may indeed end up costing more. I thank you for that. One thing I said at the outset of me taking on this portfolio, by the end of the day, whenever that will be in this particular portfolio, I will probably be an expert in some of our paving initiatives across the province and will certainly know how to mix asphalt.

Three years after coming into power, the department released its Nova Scotia's Primary and Secondary Highway Systems: 10-year Needs study, outlining the province's infrastructure deficit and detailed the steps necessary to overcome it. The report was used as a guide for future decision making about highway infrastructure in terms of both funding and overall strategy. The study contained a 10-year plan for completing, upgrading and twinning 100-Series Highways and a non-partisan, multi-year plan for maintenance and upgrade of secondary roads.

After nine years, however, since that study, and seven years after the release of this report, can you give me an update on where we currently stand in relationship to meeting these needs?

[Page 511]

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, thank you to the honourable member. There is a lot I could actually say about this one but I think what I'll say is, as I mentioned earlier, the Premier made a commitment in regard to 2,000 kilometres over four years, and this is the third year of that commitment. We will, at the end of this year, have repaved 1,500 kilometres, which I believe is a very significant investment in our infrastructure considering that the roads in this province are certainly in dire need and have been for many, many years.

The study that the honourable member mentioned was actually done in 2001 and those costs - of course, there has been significant progress over the number of years, whether it's 100-Series construction, or repaving, or secondary roads. What we've done, we've actually updated that study, which will be released soon, which will have current figures and will have current information in regard to where our plan is now and where we expect to go over the next number of years. I think the honourable member would agree as well, from 2001 until now in 2008, there's significant change in regard to costing and funding with regard to highway work.

I think we've made terrific advancement in regard to repaving of highways in Nova Scotia. Do we have a lot more to do? Absolutely, we sure do. I can only wish that we had all the dollars to do all the roads, and unfortunately we don't, but I think that we've made great strides in the last number of years and I expect to see those kinds of accomplishments reached over the next number of years.

MS. CONRAD: In April, your department release stated, "The province is developing Infrastructure 2020, a long-term strategic plan to help manage its infrastructure and address future needs." The release said that "The plan will describe the state of Nova Scotia's infrastructure and include a review of future challenges and pressures. It will outline priorities over the next several years, including estimated costs and strategies to address the needs." The goal, as laid out in this study, is to set its sights on 2020, with three years left in the 10-year needs study. I wonder, how do these two documents coincide or conflict with one another?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, first of all, the study that was done in 2001 and the one we just actually updated, which we'll release soon, is specific to roads and to bridges in Nova Scotia. The one that the honourable member is mentioning is one that's required by the federal government in regard to accessing federal dollars. We were required to, within one year, provide a plan. We are in the process now, an RFP has gone out to hire a consultant and that consultant will help us develop a plan over the next number of years of how we'll address the huge deficit we have in Nova Scotia in regard to infrastructure. But it's more related to all infrastructure as opposed to the study in 2001 which was for highways and bridges.

[Page 512]

[3:15 p.m.]

MS. CONRAD: So what I'm understanding, then, is the 2001 needs study was specifically, as you say, for highways and bridges, whereas the 2020 Nova Scotia infrastructure plan, one of the keys to that plan is to build a case for more federal funds as we move forward to 2020.

We all recognize the need for 100-Series Highways but the majority of calls that come into my office are about our local roads, and I'm sure many of the members can relate to that in the House. Secondary roads are one of the greatest obstacles in the way of rural economic development, and when we look back at our first comments indicating that infrastructure is truly the backbone to our economy, this absolutely is very important, our secondary roads. Why is Nova Scotia, in your estimation and in your department's estimation, continuing to fall behind in our secondary highways?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member. As I indicated earlier, and I think it's something we talked a lot about - I know I did and my predecessor did - Nova Scotia does have a huge deficit in regard to infrastructure. In fact, I remember Minister Russell, when he was here, talking about the annual amount that will be required. We are told right now that we would need to spend about $400 million a year over 10 years to actually catch up and to do all the things the honourable member is talking about.

Again, huge challenges. When you see prices changing on a daily basis when it comes to fuel and liquid asphalt, when you see the challenges faced by the trucking industry and, as well, highway builders, there are just a lot of challenges. Again, I want to go back to what I said earlier, that we have seen a significant investment in highways since this government has come into power in the last nine years. I mentioned earlier, as well, going from an annual capital budget of $40-plus million to, last year, of $145 million, says a lot about the commitment of this government in regard to highways; $400 million a year we would need to meet the challenges the honourable member is mentioning. But there's also huge demand on the budget in regard to Education, Health, Community Services and so on.

I do believe we have made significant investments over the last number of years and I have every reason to believe that this government will continue to make those investments over the next number of years. Again, the satisfaction survey is done and shows that Nova Scotians do recognize that we have made significant investments and that I believe it's paying huge dividends in regard to Nova Scotians having better highways to drive on.

MS. CONRAD: I want to ask just some budget questions in regard to numbers. You mentioned earlier in your opening remarks that $379 million have been invested in total highway spending. If we can just look at the budget line on Page 23.14 of the Supplementary Detail. The budget line that I'm seeing - and this is where I just want to get clarification on that $379 million - I see an estimate figure for 2008-09 of $350.875 million. So bringing the

[Page 513]

figure that you had given of $379 million, is that including the $28.1 million that is new spending in the budget that was announced in the Budget Address?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that your question?

MS. CONRAD: Further to that - I will continue on while you're looking at those figures - when I look at the forecast for 2007-08, it was projected at $361.138 million. The estimate for 2008-09, again, is $350.875 million. So there is a difference of what you think is spent for 2007-08 of over $10 million. So really, it's a significant difference, but it seems to me that the budget hasn't really increased at all when you look at what was spent in 2007-08 to what is being projected for 2008-09.

Can I continue on in that same vein of this same budget line? When we also look at the estimate for 2007-08, we see an estimate of $329.037 million and the forecasted amount spent is $361.138 million. Could you tell me where that overrun comes from and would it be fair to say that even with our additional $21.8 million added to the budget this year, we will probably fall short of the estimated 2008-09 figure?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, the $379 million actually includes the operating and capital together. So that would be a total of the operating for total highway programs and, as well, for the capital spending on highways. So that's the two together, it's $379 million. That's the total we're spending this year. The $21 million the honourable member mentions, as the honourable member will appreciate, we had a very severe winter this year, probably unlike we've had in many, many years. That $21 million would actually represent additional salt that we purchased this past winter and overtime costs. So we saw a huge expenditure this winter that we didn't plan for as a result of the type of winter that we've had, again related specifically to salt usage and overtime for employees.

MS. CONRAD: If I could respectfully comment, I think maybe you were referring to the $10 million overrun, a little more than $10 million overrun. The $21.8 million is the new monies coming in, that's my understanding.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, my understanding was, from our figures, it was $21 million over and that's where it was from the salt initially. Could the honourable member again - was it the $10 million you're asking about, which line was that on?

MS. CONRAD: Yes, I was looking at the $10 million, in excess of $10 million, overrun from the estimates in 2007-08, and then what's forecasted to be spent, that was the $10 million overrun I was looking at and questioning - just asking where that overrun would have come from.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, just again a little more clarification, so you're asking about the amounts that were actually budgeted for 2008-09 versus the forecast. Actually the

[Page 514]

monies we'll be over this year is $21 million on program spending - sorry, on operational. So it would actually be $21 million for a total of $32 million. So we're still not quite clear. Are you asking how it went from $361 million down to $350 million, and that would cover this year's, or are you asking what the over-expenditure was for last year's from the forecast . . .

MS. CONRAD: Yes, what the over-expenditures were from last year.

MR. SCOTT: Yes, well, it was actually what I said before, for the salt and for the overtime for employees.

MS. CONRAD: Thank you. When the department changed its name to the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, certainly we all understood that at certain points in time, if our business, or our operation, or our department, changes its mandate, or wants to kind of have a different look, or wants to get a different message out, that sometimes changing the name, to get that message across, makes sense.

I guess the question that I want to know is the cost of changing the department's name because, of course, with any change - and if we were running a business, we would have to look at whether or not it is cost efficient to change letterheads, logos, messaging, Web site design, highway signs and all of the advertisement that goes around with making that particular decision in order to get a particular message across, or if we're changing our direction. If we were a business and we were changing the direction we wanted to go, of course, making a name change would make sense.

Could you tell me, again, how much that would have cost the department to make that change?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for the question. I'm told that the actual cost, the immediate cost at the time, would have been very little. A lot of our things that are produced are produced by computer, so it would have been changed internally.

When it comes to vehicles and things throughout the province, a lot of those things would be changed at the time when the vehicle is replaced by a new vehicle, new equipment. So I'm told that very little cost, immediate, from the department at the time.

[3:30 p.m.]

MS. CONRAD: Thank you. On Page 7 of the department's business plan, it's indicated that the Nova Scotia infrastructure plan - and I think this is the plan that we talked about earlier, that 20/20 plan, it would be developed over the next couple of years, that

[Page 515]

infrastructure plan - could you tell me where in the budget that falls, as a budget item, in terms of the cost of the plan, yes.

MR. SCOTT: It would be in the Supplementary Detail on Page 23.8. It's under Program Expenses, Highway Engineering and Construction Services, it would be included there.

MS. CONRAD: Okay, under Highway Construction Services, that's the last line, then?

MR.SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, sorry about that. Actually, it's under the Executive Director - Highway Engineering and Construction Services. It would be included in there for $250,000.

MS. CONRAD: One thing, when I read through the department's business plan recently, I was really disappointed that there was no mention of secondary roads or major routes; there was talk about 100-Series Highways and twinning. I want to remind the minister that secondary roads are important gateways in our communities, so when we look at a business plan - and as a former business owner myself, I know the importance of making sure that information in your business plan includes a lot of meat, because it is your meat and potatoes - your business plan is that living, working document.

I was disappointed not to see secondary roads indicated, especially for the many secondary roads that are across this province and the many, many residents who live around those secondary roads, and all of those residents who certainly call my office daily and, as I said before, certainly all members' offices daily. So it was a little bit disheartening.

Speaking of secondary roads not being mentioned in the business plan, I'm also looking at the budget, and I'm looking at some lines that have concern for me because it appears there's a decrease in some of the monies being spent and whether they're directly related to our secondary roads. So I'm looking on Page 23.7 - bear with me, I lost my pages out of my books. Sorry, I'm looking at the wrong line here. If I can come back to that particular question, after I've misplaced where I was on that.

So I'll move on to another budget line item, if I could. I didn't really have a quick question around why that didn't appear in the budget or the business plan, the secondary roads, I was just expressing my disappointment that it wasn't there.

If we could look at Page 23.7, and I'll ask the question around Fleet Management. Certainly there is a huge increase in Fleet Management for 2008-09, and after hearing your opening remarks, I understand that there has been an investment in fleet vehicles in the province. So am I to assume that the increase, which is almost double from what was spent in 2007-08, am I to assume that those vehicle expenditures are part of that increase?

[Page 516]

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, it's actually an accounting issue, where before billing was done directly to the regions throughout the province, the depots, now it's been transferred centrally so it's now being billed directly to Miller Lake. So it's a shifting of the same money but just a change from regional billing to Miller Lake billing.

Just while I'm up, I'd like to mention that the honourable member asked about secondary roads and the disappointment not to see it in the business plan. I do want to say that two-thirds of our monies for capital construction goes actually to secondary roads in the province and three-quarters of our operating goes to the province as well.

Again, I'll go back to the commitment the Premier made in regard to 500 kilometres, the majority of that would be secondary roads that we would see in regard to capital in this province.

MS. CONRAD: So I guess I'm still not really clear on that change in billing and how that works, and why that changes this particular budget line. I guess it would require sitting down with some staff around budget, to actually look at this whole - yes, I think a lot of us - looking at the budget lines here and trying to figure out decreases and increases, and not being aware of any billing changes and what that means to the bottom line at the end of the day.

So you're saying that the Premier's announcement of investment into secondary roads - where would I find that then in the budget? What budget line would I find monies for those secondary road improvements?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, the Premier's commitment with regard to 2,000 kilometres over four years is included in our capital this year, which is $145 million. It doesn't specifically say the Premier's commitment of 500 kilometres this year, but it's incorporated in our budget and in our capital program. That $145 million actually covers the commitment made with regard to the Premier for 2,000 kilometres in four years.

MS. CONRAD: I'm glad the Premier doesn't have a separate budget line in the department's books.

I want to go back to the department's business plan. On Page 9 of the business plan, it's indicated that a comprehensive review will be undertaken: "Fleet management will undertake a comprehensive review of the historical summer utilization of equipment by area and class to establish the optimal equipment required for the current budget allotment." Is that, then, indicative of the equipment that you had indicated the department is purchasing?

MR. SCOTT: To the honourable member, I appreciate that. Actually, that review is ongoing right now. What it means is that we're actually doing a determination of the numbers and pieces of equipment we have throughout the province and whether there's more

[Page 517]

needed in one area and less in another, specific to a piece of equipment, trucks versus graders, versus backhoes. The answer is yes, it would be included in that list I gave to you earlier. There's significant investment with regard to capital, particularly equipment, throughout the province, and we're going to do it again this year. But as I highlighted earlier, that's the equipment we're looking at this year and that review is actually ongoing now.

MS. CONRAD: Thank you for that. Just talking about the equipment that has been identified so far, I may have missed some of what you have identified, but I think you talked about a number of salt trucks, excavators, sweepers or vacuum sweeping - and there were a couple of other types of heavy equipment that I didn't hear - how are those pieces of equipment dispersed throughout the province? Most DOT operations would have a deficit of equipment, and I'm suspecting all areas in Nova Scotia would be facing somewhat of an equipment deficit. Obviously 17 salt trucks or two sweepers are not going to cover all of the needs of the entire province. So is there a sharing of equipment? If one area is needing an extra salt truck and there's another area that has a salt truck, is there that sharing back and forth? If not, how is it determined what district or area receives those pieces of equipment?

MR. SCOTT: I thank the member for the question. Yes, there will be some sharing of some equipment. Obviously a lot of the depots would have all the trucks they need themselves, so they don't need to share that around. But maybe there would be a situation where a backhoe, or another specific piece of equipment maybe, is needed, but only one depot has it in the area, there would be that sharing.

With regard to replacement of that, we're trying to identify the maximum number of dollars we can have annually for replacement of equipment. We know that - we've heard it from the union, we know from the president who always talks about the need and desire to have equipment replaced as soon as possible. Part of the decision with regard to where it's done - obviously, it works its way up through the OS's and the area managers and the directors to fleet management, but also takes into consideration the amount of money spent on maintenance and repairs to vehicles, for example.

If two areas need a backhoe and one has one that's breaking all the time and it's costing a huge amount of money, then we would try to ensure that the area that needs it most would get it, wherever it is in the province.

MS. CONRAD: I have heard that some areas with crew members driving older trucks or operating some equipment that has a tendency to break down when they least want them to break down - not that anybody wants their vehicle to break down, but it is very trying for some of the crews out there - and I've also been told that they feel kind of small next to the road builders when the contracts are done, or being tendered, and the companies roll in with their spiffy equipment. So I certainly can appreciate there's much need for new equipment in some of our fleets.

[Page 518]

I want to talk about the Road Weather Information System or RWIS, the 511 - is that the same, is 511 part of the Road Weather Information System?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, there are actually two systems. Obviously the cameras, which are in certain areas of the province, which I talked about earlier, are providing great service to the travelling community in regard to time-specific conditions, and those are accessed on-line. They're strategically placed throughout the province and there are plans to expand that over the coming years. The other system I mentioned, as well, was the 511 system where you can dial in and get road conditions on any specific road in the province just by dialing. It's a bilingual service and you can actually dial in the specific road or route that you want information on and get quite recent information as well. So there are actually two systems. One is the Web camera system and one is the 511 system. (Interruption) I'm sorry, 511 I'm told is on the Web and it's on the phone as well.

MS. CONRAD: I wasn't clear about whether or not it was two different systems or if it was one and the same. I do have a bit of a concern about the 511 system, only because not all phones can access the 511 service. Certainly my MLA office is not able to dial through to 511. Now, we haven't tried it in the last couple of weeks, but we're not able to access it at all from my office and whether or not in the immediate area around our office, I'm not sure if folks can dial in and we certainly haven't explored that.

I'm wondering about the cost of installing that 511 service across the province and I'm wondering also, in your honest opinion, whether you believe that the investment for the 511 was actually a priority that most residents would have been requesting across the province, you know, even if the 511 service ended up costing maybe $500,000 - I'm just pulling up that figure. Some residents may think that $500,000 would have been better off invested into a secondary road or an upgrade somewhere else.

[3:45 p.m.]

I'm not sure how many residents actually use the 511 system, but I know, before the 511 system was available, for myself, I would either check on-line as to what some of the road conditions were and certainly, you know, you can go into the highway site as well and look at that and perhaps that's through the RWIS system. I'm not sure what I am looking at when I am looking at some of those Web cams. Also I could access the RCMP's road information line that would give me the information that I needed for my immediate travel needs.

With the 511 service, I think most people, especially now with the cellphone ban, if they are curious about road conditions an hour away, if that's where they're travelling, of course, they're going to have to pull over on the side of the road and dial through a service. If they're not from the area and they're not sure of the particular highway or what they're looking for, it's a rather cumbersome process to get that particular information. I'm not sure

[Page 519]

if motorists are really looking for that information at their fingertips. So, again, what would the cost have been for the 511 and, in your honest opinion, do you think it was the best priority for this department to make in light of other priority needs?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, thank you to the honourable member. First of all on the cost, the 511 system is actually taking the place of the 1-800 service that we previously had, so there is no additional cost to switch to the 511. The cost of the 1-800 number, I'm told, is probably in the tens of thousands per year. It certainly wouldn't be in the hundreds of thousands, as you mentioned.

I do want to say, first of all, we are the first in Canada to have this 511 system. We were in Ottawa a month or so ago with ministers from across the country, and the federal minister as well, and I can tell you, Nova Scotia was given great credit for again being the leader in this country in regard to road safety and making information available to motorists. The honourable member asked whether I think it's good value for the dollar. I guess I can't be the judge of that, but I can tell who will be - as I said earlier, the old system had approximately an average 300 calls a day, now we're averaging 1,000 a day on the 511 system. So I guess Nova Scotians have bought into it.

The other thing I want to say is, we are going to expand this way beyond what it is now, and to give you an example, we hope this summer when there's road construction, detours and whatever, tourists and motorists will be able to access all that information on 511. We have had meetings with the forestry folks and the Truckers Association as well. We have rave reviews from them about the 511 system, how great it is for them to be able to determine - for example, through the winter months, we had roads open and close all the time. We tried to keep the roads open as best we could, depending on temperatures. The old system before, we relied on getting the information out through maybe the associations to their members, and now the truckers can actually, from at home or in their truck, dial 511 and find out which roads are open and which ones are closed and what time they are closing.

We've had terrific response from users in those industries and, again, when I look at the numbers from where we had the 1-800 number to where we are now with 511, 1,000 calls a day, a lot of phone calls for people interested in the condition of the roads, which roads are open, which weight restrictions there are.

For the convenience of Nova Scotians and, again, to be recognized nationally, and I can tell you other jurisdictions are actually looking at what we have here in Nova Scotia now. It's used a lot in the United States and, again, we are the first in Canada. Again, the 511 as well, you can access it through the Web, and there are millions of hits through the Web.

I think it is a tremendous service. I think Nova Scotians have accepted it well. It's more than just someone can pick up the phone and dial and see road conditions on a certain road just for the sake of doing it. It's great for business people, particularly those in the

[Page 520]

trucking industry. Again, I think they are using it and have accepted it wholeheartedly and they are encouraging us to broaden its use.

I'm hoping to see it later this year, that we will be able to ensure that 511 will offer a greater, wider service to motorists, tourists. Again, I'm sure the honourable member has seen the signs as you travel throughout Nova Scotia. We put up a lot of signs in regard to 511, encouraging people to call it and to get road information. I think it's a great service, and it was our deputy, actually, who encouraged us to do it. It was a bit of a project of his, and I think he has done a great job. Again, as Nova Scotians, we should be very proud, because we are the best in Canada.

MS. CONRAD: I have heard some really good things about the deputy minister, amazing things. So with that, I have to say I appreciate your comments and I'm sure all of the people calling in are getting the information they are looking for.

In the interest of time, because I know time is winding down and I will have to give some space to my colleagues to the left of me, I would like to just quickly give you a couple of questions, if I may, all in one kind of lump sum and then I can move on, when I get back on the floor later, to other topics.

A couple of questions - one is around the National Highway System. We're still waiting to see Highway Nos. 107 and 103 become part of that National Highway System. We don't have a Canadian national program, but have them listed as part of the National Highway System - Highway Nos. 107 and 103. I know that one of your colleagues has advocated for Highway No. 107. They are vital links and if they were listed as part of the National Highway System through Nova Scotia, we would perhaps be eligible for more of those federal dollars, which we're always anxious to get or want to receive. That's one question, if there's any advocacy in whether or not the federal government is having their ear bent.

Also, in terms of the gas tax, the question around the gas tax is, how much gas tax have we sent to Ottawa this year and how much has come back to us in our share of the gas tax revenue? Another question around the tax would be, we've heard suggestions from some who feel that 4 cents should be taken off of our motive fuel tax and if that were to happen, what effect would that 4 cents have, overall, on our infrastructure needs? One more question that I'd like to put in your direction, again in the interest of time - actually, I think I'll save this next one because it's a little bit more detailed. If you could give me the answers for those questions, I'd much appreciate it.

MR. SCOTT: I thank the honourable member. The honourable member would know there are national criteria, federally, with regard to designating which highways would be considered. These 100-Series Highways would then be eligible for cost sharing. We continue to lobby the federal government with regard to 100-Series Highways, but I can tell the

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honourable member that Highway No. 103, actually, is part of the National Highway System - it is now. It's a feeder road, but it would qualify for federal funding in the base funding, so it actually does now.

I will mention to the honourable member that - I know the honourable member has brought it to my attention, but so has the honourable member for Chester-St. Margaret's, the honourable member for Yarmouth and all down along the South Shore, especially the federal member, Mr. Keddy, who has contacted me on several occasions with regard to Highway No. 103 and what we can expect to see with regard to Highway No. 103 over the next number of years. I will continue to work toward some announcements with regard to Highway No. 103 - it's a feeder, and it would be eligible for federal funding, cost sharing.

With regard to the gas tax, this past year we would have sent $136 million to Ottawa and we would receive $35 million back from Ottawa. As to the 4 cents, 1 cent equals $12 million with regard to the gas tax, $16 million if you include diesel. So if you just looked at the gas only, 1 cent equals $12 million, almost $50 million for the 4 cents of the gas tax. So if you equate that to what we're doing with regard to work throughout the year, you can see how much road work we would lose in Nova Scotia if we actually took the 4 cents in gas tax off. If we took that out of our capital budget, we would lose approximately 200 kilometres per year of repaving that we would have to do without in this province.

As you mentioned earlier, even though we continue to put more money into it each year, we are facing a huge challenge with regard to our paving projects in Nova Scotia. I think for us to even consider taking money away from that wouldn't be very well accepted by Nova Scotians. I know everywhere I go, both before and after I became minister, Nova Scotians everywhere encourage us to continue to put more money into highways across this province, and I think it's mandatory that we do that. I don't think it would be fair to say that we would be able to continue the great work we're doing if we took money away from the gas tax.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The time has expired for the NDP caucus.

The honourable member for Clare.

MR. WAYNE GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, before I begin with my questions to the minister, I want to first take this opportunity to thank the minister and the former minister and his staff for their co-operation and for their help and for responding to letters and calls that I have forwarded over to his department on behalf of my constituents. (Interruptions)

[3:57 p.m. The committee recessed.]

[4:00 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

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MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. We will now resume with the estimates.

The honourable member for Clare.

MR. WAYNE GAUDET: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I was saying in my opening comments, I wanted to first of all take this opportunity to thank the minister and the former minister and all their staff for their help, their co-operation, and for responding to letters and requests and calls that I have forwarded over to the department. I also want to acknowledge and thank our local staff at home as well. Paul Dugas, who is the Operations Supervisor in Clare, and Greg Newell, the Area Manager in Yarmouth, both have been very helpful, and they have always been very professional in helping with concerns that I have raised with them.

Mr. Chairman, when you look at the overall budget for the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal for this coming year, the grand total of $350,875,000 that the minister is responsible for, and we heard the minister, in his opening comments, talking about the responsibilities the department has - to look after approximately 23,000 kilometres, looking after approximately 4,100 bridges, operating seven provincial ferries and, on top of that, trying to complete our 100-Series Highways. Unfortunately, right off, with $350 million, I don't believe there is enough. The minister certainly has a lot to look after and I guess when you take into consideration how old the infrastructure is that needs to be replaced, unfortunately, you realize very quickly that the minister needs a lot more funding in his budget.

Mr. Chairman, speaking with representatives of the Nova Scotia Road Builders Association, I was told that our roads here in Nova Scotia are about 50 per cent older than the Canadian average, and many of our bridges are 100 per cent older than the Canadian average. Back in February of this year, Statistics Canada released a new study on public infrastructure across the country and pointed out that Nova Scotia has the oldest infrastructure system in the country. I don't believe anybody was surprised to hear this - I don't think we need Statistics Canada to point this out, that we have the oldest infrastructure system in the country, however our Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal probably would need - how much, is it $3 billion or $4 billion - maybe even more than that - just to bring our roads and bridges to acceptable standards for today? So immediately, when you look at a budget of $350 million and the infrastructure deficit, this minister and this department has certainly a big challenge in front of them.

Mr. Chairman, we certainly recognize this minister and his department can't fix everything at once. We all know the entire budget of his department is not spent on our roads and bridges. The minister needs a big chunk of this budget just to operate its department - $117 million alone is spent on salaries and benefits in his department. So the government, or any government, this minister, this deputy minister and department staff, as I have said, they have one big challenge in front of them. I am sure the department has a plan where this

[Page 523]

year's funding will be allocated, but at the end of the day, and yet every year, the question is, how much money is available to government to spend on our roads and bridges?

So, Mr. Chairman, with those few opening comments, I want to begin looking at how much federal funding is given to Nova Scotia to help us with our roads and bridges. I will begin with the Canada-Nova Scotia - it is called the CSIF - the Canada Strategic Infrastructure Fund agreement for Highway No. 101 and Highway No. 104 as stated back on October 7, 2005. This five-year highway agreement was for a total of $61 million, and each level of government was going to put in, or invest, $30.5 million under this agreement. Under the specifics, the federal government will spend $6 million towards Highway No. 104. So out of the $30.5 million that the federal government was putting in this five-year agreement, $6 million was going to be invested in Highway No. 104 and $24.6 million in Highway No. 101 over the five-year duration of this agreement.

When I looked specifically for this year, under 2008-09, the federal government was planning to spend $6,763,000 on five projects in this year alone. We have Highway No. 104 from New Glasgow to Pine Tree Road; we have Highway No. 101, St. Croix to Three Mile Plains; and Highway No. 101, Falmouth to Avonport; Highway No. 101, the Joggins Bridge interchange; and Highway No. 101, the Hectanooga Road interchange - I'll have more questions on these projects later on. So for this coming year, under this agreement, the Province of Nova Scotia is expected to receive $6,763,000. Next year, in the last year of this highway agreement, the federal government is looking at spending $4,700,000 on four projects - and we'll come to those later.

So, Mr. Chairman, I understand there are always special circumstances that come about where the department needs some flexibility built in - sometimes there are reasons to delay work; sometimes there are reasons to start work earlier on certain jobs. So I guess my first question to the minister is can the minister confirm that the province is still scheduled to receive $11,463,000 in the last two years of this five-year highway agreement?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, first of all I want to thank the honourable member for his comments in regard to staff and, as I said earlier, I couldn't agree with you more that staff here in Halifax and as well throughout the province provide tremendous service to Nova Scotians on a daily basis - and their families as well, we owe a great deal of gratitude to their families who allow them to be a great service to this province.

There are actually two agreements, honourable member, and one is season one and season two, but in total, over the next two years, we'll actually spend about, in federal money, $15 million from those two agreements over the next two years.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, maybe the minister could clarify. Under the first agreement he indicated that Nova Scotia is supposed to be receiving $15 million, and I'm

[Page 524]

just curious under this agreement - I'm looking for him to confirm we're still projected to receive $11,463,000, so maybe I would ask the minister, could he confirm that?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, actually it will be the $15 million because we didn't fully bill the federal government the whole allotment last year. So there's some carried over - actually it will be $15 million this year.

MR. GAUDET: Thank you to the minister for his answer. Mr. Chairman, back on November 9, 2007, the province signed a $634 million agreement between the province and the federal government. I'll table a copy of that press release, or maybe I'll ask the Page if he could bring it over to the minister. In this press release, it indicates they had signed a $634 million agreement between the province and the federal government. According to the press release, $235.68 million is under the Building Canada Fund, $175 million is announced as base funding, $25 million annually, leading to 2014. The third part of this agreement has $223.70 million for municipalities, so again for a total of $634.38 million.

So, Mr. Chairman, to get a better understanding on what is in this agreement, I want to start off by asking the minister how long is this agreement? How much of this $634 million is federal funding and how much is provincial funding?

MR. SCOTT: Thank you to the member opposite. The total amount, $634 million, is all federal money and the agreement is for seven years.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, looking at the first part, the $235 million for the Building Canada Fund, I guess in order to try and better understand the details of the announcement, in the press release it indicated that $37 million will be allocated to smaller- scale projects in communities with populations of less than 100,000, and $198.68 million is for major infrastructure projects, which includes the National Highway System. So my first question is on the first part of the announcement, when I look at the $235 million, I'm just wondering how much of this funding will go on roads and bridges? I'll start with that one, how much of this funding will actually end up being spent on our roads and bridges?

MR. SCOTT: Obviously , what portion of that $235 million over the next seven years will go on roads will be the decision of Cabinet. That hasn't been decided yet, but there will be a list coming out of Cabinet to determine where those monies will be spent.

[4:15 p.m.]

MR. GAUDET: Thank you. That was my next question. I wanted to ask the minister if the department had a list of projects on where this $235 million will be spent? I just heard the minister, that Cabinet will make the final approval to allocate this funding. I'm just curious, I'll ask the minister this question, does the department - and I'm sure that the list is

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quite long - have a list that they are considering and submitting to Cabinet for approval, looking at this $235 million?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, to the honourable member, that list is actually being compiled now. The $235 million would include - obviously the projects that would qualify provincially, here, are 100-Series Highways that qualify under that program. I can tell you that the list that we will submit will far exceed the $235 million, at least in transportation, but other projects have to go in there as well in regard to infrastructure of the province. That list is actually being compiled now. The honourable member would appreciate this, you can just look at the 100-Series Highways in Nova Scotia and the bridges, and I know that we could easily surpass that ourselves and, of course, then we have to come up with matching dollars as well. But the list is actually being compiled at this time.

MR. GAUDET: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to move on to the other part of this agreement. As I pointed out earlier, there is $175 million identified; $25 million for seven years, starting this year, leading up to 2014. So my next question for the minister, can the minister tell us if Nova Scotia will start receiving that $25 million this year, 2008, leading into 2014? The second part of my question is, could the minister indicate to us what this $175 million will go towards?

MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To the member opposite, to the first part of your question the answer is yes, in fact we've already seen $25 million from last year's work that we've done, so we are well underway in that.

In regard to the type of work that can be completed, I know $175 million in the criteria federally that would qualify for work on the feeder highways that we talked about, repaving of the 100-Series Highways and bridges as well. So for transportation, those would fit the criteria that the federal government has set out.

MR. GAUDET: Would the minister undertake to table the criteria that this $175 million can be spent on? Will the honourable minister agree to table the criteria used, or that will be used, to spend that $175 million.

MR. SCOTT: Yes.

MR. GAUDET: Thank you, and I thank the honourable member for his commitment. Mr. Chairman, the last part of the agreement makes reference that municipalities will receive $223 million through the extension of the gas tax fund. My question is, can the minister tell us where municipalities can spend this funding or is it left for municipalities to decide? So again, I'm looking for criteria that's going to establish where this federal funding will allow municipalities to spend this funding.

[Page 526]

MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That actually will be administered through Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, in regard to municipalities, but I am sure it will qualify for projects within those municipalities, whether it be infrastructure, roads, water systems, sewer systems, whatever. It is Service Nova Scotia that is actually administering that program for the federal government.

MR. GAUDET: Okay, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have another question regarding this amount. Does the department, does government have a breakdown on how much, or where, this $223 million will be divided up among the 55 municipal units? If so, will the minister undertake to table that information?

MR. SCOTT: As I said a moment ago, that is actually being administered through Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. I'm not sure if that information is available, but I'm sure if it is, they would make it available to the honourable member.

MR. GAUDET: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Also, in this announcement it said that the construction of phase one of the new Highway No. 104 project outside Antigonish was identified as a priority under this agreement. So I guess my first question is, under what part of the agreement are we looking at the Building Canada Fund? Are we looking at the base funding fund or are we looking at the funding allocated for municipalities?

MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It would be under the Building Canada Fund.

MR. GAUDET: Thank you. I guess my next question to the minister is, how much funding has been identified for this project, and will the minister commit to table the details of what is referred to as phase one of this Highway No. 104 project?

MR. SCOTT: The estimated cost for that first phase, which is eight kilometres, would be $50 million and any information we have on that we would be willing to share with the honourable member.

MR. GAUDET: I'm going to move on. Back in 2005 - this government has a tendency to re-announce programs, funding - the Canada-Nova Scotia Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund was announced. This was back in 2005, it was a six-year agreement for $111 million. Last year, back in the Spring, it was re-announced and then on December 21, 2007, the province announced $111 million for the new Building Canada Fund.

I guess my first question is, are we looking at two separate funds or is it the same fund re-announced by government?

MR. SCOTT: Actually, it's two different funds and that would, again, be under Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, the administration of that program.

[Page 527]

MR. GAUDET: Okay, I understand it's not under the Department of Transportation. I want to move over to the motive fuel tax. I'm trying to better understand how much this government collects on gas taxes in our province. This government is on record for having said, time and time again, by different members of this government, that every cent collected on gas is reinvested in our roads. I'm sure the department is keeping very close records on how much is collected.

I want to turn over to the Nova Scotia Budget Assumptions and Schedules for this coming year. I want to turn to Page 1.15. Under the estimate for 2008-09, we have a listing for the different provincial sources under which we find the motive fuel taxes. There's an amount of $246,926,000. We know that every litre of gas that's sold in Nova Scotia, the federal government collects 10 cents on every litre sold in Nova Scotia plus the federal government collects the federal portion of the HST and that's 5 per cent. We know the province collects 15.5 cents on every litre of gas sold in Nova Scotia and at the same time, the province collects the provincial portion of the HST.

Looking at the estimates being proposed here on Page 1.15, my first question to the minister is, can the minister inform this committee what taxes are included in the motive fuel tax?

MR. SCOTT: The numbers included in that would be the 15.5 cents that are on motive fuel and diesel.

MR. GAUDET: Thank you. So when I hear the minister saying that includes the 15.5 cents charge on gas and diesel, immediately one question that comes to mind is, the part the province collects on the HST portion, I'm just wondering where that amount is included? Maybe I would ask the minister if he could indicate to me where we could find this amount that's being collected on gas and diesel sold in Nova Scotia?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, to the honourable member, the HST portion collected would not only be collected on gasoline and diesel, but every other product that's sold in this province that HST is able to be collected on, it's not individualized or separated out. It's all collected and it goes to Ottawa. Ottawa then returns to Nova Scotia the portion that belongs to the province, but where you would find it is in Schedule 1C, on Page 1.15, in the harmonized sales tax, $1.1 billion. That's the total amount for the province. That would include all the sales in Nova Scotia that harmonized sales tax is collected on and is remitted to Ottawa and then a portion thereof, that belongs to the province, is returned.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, we have in this government document a grand total of $246 million that's being collected on gasoline and diesel. I'm going to be tabling this, this is the 2007 report on the Canadian retail gasoline sales data. Maybe I'll ask the Page to bring this over to the minister, please.

[Page 528]

Mr. Chairman, the Canadian retail gasoline sales data indicates to us on this datasheet for the year 2007, consumers in Nova Scotia consumed approximately 1.2 billion litres of gasoline; this is for gasoline only, 1.2 billion litres. It also indicates, it shows the federal excise tax is 10 cents on the litre. Then it breaks down the annual tax collected. So it shows the province, $177 million; the HST for the provincial portion, $86 million. Looking at the federal excise tax collected, it has $114 million and the 5 per cent, the federal portion of the HST, is listed as $64 million; so looking at the federal government collecting last year, in 2007, a total of approximately $178 million.

[4:30 p.m.]

So I'm trying to find out the fact that the feds did collect $178 million from their share of taxes collected on gas sold - gas, this is only gas; I'm not talking aviation fuel; we're not talking diesel, gas only, $178 million. I'm just curious, how much did the federal government turn over to the province to help us with our roads and bridges? From last year's figures, $178,977,000 that was collected by the federal government, how much did the federal government turn over to the province to help us with our roads and bridges?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, to the honourable member opposite, that number would be approximately $11 million.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I guess my question to the minister, when I look at the feds collecting, or taking in, about $178 million from our province and approximately $11 million. There is still a big gap. I guess my question to the minister is, has the minister, or his department's staff, do they continue to lobby the federal government to try to increase that amount that the federal government is turning over to the province?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, thank you to the member opposite. Certainly, the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, over the past number of years, has continued to lobby the federal government in regard to the monies collected and looking for more support in this province. At the end of the day, the results of that hard work, I think are shown in that agreement that we have been able to sign in the Fall in regard to what kind of monies we will see being spent in Nova Scotia in regard to highways and bridges over the next seven years.

MR. GAUDET: I want to thank the minister for his answer. Mr. Chairman, before I move on to another topic, I would like to ask the minister if Nova Scotia receives any other federal funding now to help us with our roads? I recognize government is always talking, there are always ongoing discussions, talking about new possible projects always being looked at. So I guess I would like to ask the minister if he could tell us if Nova Scotia is receiving any other funding this year to help us with our roads?

[Page 529]

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, the answer would be no. We do not have any other federal agreements, at least not to this point, so the answer would be no.

MR. GAUDET: Again, on the motive fuel sales tax, we know from the amount that is listed here, for this coming year, 2008-09, I am curious if the minister could tell us how much the province is looking at collecting on gas, on diesel sold in Nova Scotia this year - does the department have a projection on how much will be collected?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, the gas tax revenue on gasoline and on diesel, collectively, would be $246.9 million.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I'm trying to get an understanding on how much tax dollars are collected on gas. It is certainly a very difficult exercise. When I hear the minister indicating this year that Nova Scotia is looking at collecting $246 million, that's the motive sales tax, 15.5 cents on every litre that is sold, and when I look at the Canadian retail gasoline sales data for last year, for 2007, this is gas only, I don't have the numbers for diesel, the provincial motive fuel tax was $177 million plus $86 million for the HST portion on the provincial tax side - so of course $177 million plus $86 million - and then I try to find out how much is collected from the HST, the HST is rolled into another budget item, it certainly makes you wonder. If we had some numbers that were very clear, cut and dry, we saw how much money the Province of Nova Scotia is taking in on the sale of gas, on the sale of diesel, on the sale of aviation fuel that is sold in this province and how much is redirected on our roads and bridges in this province we certainly could understand when the government stands up and tells us that every cent, every cent that is collected in taxes on gas is reinvested in our roads and our bridges. Certainly I can understand why people have a hard time understanding that because we don't know what those numbers are, you know, how much is the province collecting and how much is being invested.

Mr. Chairman, I'll move on to one last question with regard to funding. I remember a few years ago - here we are - it was reported on May 12, 2006, in The ChronicleHerald by the former minister that the government had promised to put the motor fuel tax of 15.5 cents a litre they collect, and all revenue from the Registry of Motor Vehicles, on our roads. I'll table that article in a minute. So my question to the minister - can the minister confirm if government is still planning to do that this year? Shall the motor fuel tax that's being collected along with all the revenue that's being collected by the Registry of Motor Vehicles, can he confirm if government still plans to invest those dollars in our roads and bridges?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, yes, the department is intending on spending all the gas tax revenue from motor fuel and from the provincial Motor Vehicles' revenue - less Registry of Motor Vehicle expenses, which would come out of that amount of money that we do collect in this province but it would be the same as we calculated other years. So the answer would be yes.

[Page 530]

MR. GAUDET: So again when I look at how much the Registry of Motor Vehicles is planning on taking in, it indicates $90,122,000. The minister confirms that minus whatever the registry expenses is allocated to our roads and bridges.

Mr. Chairman, I want to start in another area, I want to look at Highway No. 101. The department has a couple of twinning projects underway in the Annapolis Valley under the five-year highway agreement. We have a section from Avonport to Falmouth and we have another section from Three Mile Plains to St. Croix. We have some interchanges further down in my part of the province but looking back, again coming back to this particular area, last year work was completed on the new overpass in Avonport that was actually opened last Fall. When you leave Avonport and you're driving towards Halifax, driving towards Hantsport, there's a twinned section that's almost ready to be paved, including the Ben Jackson Road interchange. My question to the minister is, when is the department planning to open this section this year and, at the same time, has the paving tender for that section been awarded yet?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, just before I answer the honourable member's last question, I should say that when we talked about the motor fuel taxes and what has been allocated to Transportation, the legislation does say that those dollars have to be allocated to Transportation net. So it would be net of expenses to Registry of Motor Vehicle. Just in answer to his last question, we expect to complete that section the honourable member is talking about and have the paving done this year and, no, the tender has not been awarded yet.

MR. GAUDET: I want to thank the minister for his response. So moving further up, arriving into the Hantsport area, when drivers are coming up to the Hantsport exit, construction is underway on a new bridge structure that will help connect the divided highway that is under construction. Does the minister have an idea when that bridge structure will be completed?

MR. SCOTT: I think the honourable Mr. Chairman is quite interested in the questions as well. We expect the completion of that actual structure will be the end of August.

MR. GAUDET: Again, Mr. Minister, at the Hantsport exit, work is actually continuing on the divided section that is leading right into Falmouth. Does the department have an idea when the section from Falmouth to Ben Jackson Road will actually open? Does the department have an opening date in mind?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, to the honourable member, certainly this construction season and probably by this Fall.

[Page 531]

MR. GAUDET: That is certainly good to hear. I know I have been asked that question and I am sure my colleagues here in the House, especially traveling along Highway No. 101, have been asked that as well.

Mr. Chairman, leaving Falmouth - between Falmouth and Windsor, there is no construction proceeding at this time. We understand there is an environmental screening assessment underway between Falmouth and Three Mile Plains, including the Windsor Causeway. Does the minister know when this assessment will be completed?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, as the honourable member mentioned, we are waiting for the results of that environmental assessment. Once we receive the results of that, we will be looking to the federal government to sign the agreement for this specific piece of highway to be cost-shared to complete.

MR. GAUDET: So, Mr. Chairman, I know that the environmental assessment is underway. I guess what I am curious in finding out, does the department have a plan on where the so-called missing piece will actually go through? Do they have plan on where that section of the divided highway will pass between Falmouth and Windsor? If not, does the minister know when that plan will be finalized? Does the department have a time frame on when we can expect that?

[4:45 p.m.]

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, our plan will be to run a parallel highway, twinning the one that is existing there now. Obviously we are waiting for the environmental assessment to come back before we can go to the next step. Our plan is to move, again, we will be applying to the federal government right away to make that part of our cost-sharing with the federal government but we are in anticipation of something happening there soon.

MR. GAUDET: Again, I am just curious as far as time frame. Does the department have a sense of when, especially with work basically ongoing from both sides from the Town of Windsor - does the department have a time frame in mind when they anticipate that whole section will be completed from Avonport right up to St. Croix?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, the department's plan, or our hopes would be, that we would finish the Avonport portion this year. The St. Croix portion would be completed, paved and completed next year, and the following year complete the third section the honourable is asking about. (Interruption) Sorry, start on the third section.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, so moving on further up, especially from Three Mile Plains right up to St. Croix. Under the highway agreement this year, it indicates that $2.3 million is scheduled to be spent on twinning this section, this year, and another $5.5 million

[Page 532]

will be spent on this section. My question is, what work is being planned for this year, on that section, and what work is being planned for next year?

MR. SCOTT: Our plan would be to do the grading portion of that highway this year, then obviously, looking towards paving that section next year.

MR. GAUDET: So, maybe heading in the other direction, there are two interchanges that are listed under that highway agreement. There's the Joggins bridge interchange outside of Digby and the Hectanooga Road interchange that's located in Clare. My first question, does the minister know when the Joggins bridge interchange is scheduled to open, and at the same time, has the paving tender been called and awarded yet for that interchange?

MR. SCOTT: That project, as well, we expect to be completed this Fall. The tender has not yet been called, but it will be this season and we look for completion this Fall.

MR. GAUDET: I want to thank the minister for his information. Moving to the Hectanooga Road interchange, speaking with the department staff earlier last month, I was told there were some difficulties in reaching some land owners, property owners. Of course, when you have difficulty in reaching property owners to buy either the full piece of land or a partial piece of land, at the same time it delays projects. Unfortunately, without these property owners onboard, the department cannot begin with clearing the land for this interchange. The overpass structure has recently been completed. Your department was looking at calling a tender this summer for clearing the way for the ramps. Does the minister know whether this project is going to be further delayed until next year or does the department plan to tender some work to be carried out this summer, or this Fall, in order to complete this project next year?

MR. SCOTT: To the honourable member's question, the department made a decision to move some of the funding around so we could finish the Avonport section this year - get that completed in anticipation of moving onto the area the member asked about next year.

MR. GAUDET: Alright, I'll leave the highway agreement and I'll come back to the Valley. The department has indicated they're currently in the planning and surveying stage between the Grand Pre exit and the Coldbrook, that's roughly a 26 kilometre section. With the planning and surveying underway, when does the department plan to have this planning and surveying done, and what's the cost to get this work done?

MR. SCOTT: We'll be looking at the plans of environmental assessments, and all that, probably in the range of at least $500,000; and we're anticipating it will take us the next two or three years.

MR. GAUDET: Minister, once the planning is done - I guess I'm trying to find out what the next work that will be carried out by the department. Once the assessment, the

[Page 533]

surveying, the planning has been completed, where is the department going to go next on this project between Grand Pré and Coldbrook?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, obviously we would be looking at the environmental assessment, as I said. We would be then moving on, depending on what that assessment, study finds. Moving on to design of that specific project and then, obviously, trying to reach an agreement with the federal government on including that in our cost-sharing program. We are probably looking at the next three to four years to reach that stage.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, moving further down - back in November 2007, the department announced that it was looking at constructing passing lanes between Berwick and Kingston. My first question to the minister is, does the department plan, or when does the department plan to start this work and complete it? How many passing lanes is the department considering building? How much funding is allocated to this project? So maybe let's start off with my first question, when does the department plan to start this work and complete it?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, to the honourable member opposite, the design work actually is underway now for that specific project in that area the honourable member is asking about. That is being worked on presently, today.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, while that planning is underway, I am just curious if the minister could indicate to our committee, is there a chance for public input in terms of where passing lanes are needed? Because technically, once you leave Bridgetown and you drive right up to Coldbrook, there are no passing lanes on that stretch of highway. So the department is basically reducing, cutting probably that in half, maybe one-third of it and bringing passing lanes between Berwick and Kingston. So my question to the minister is, is there a chance for public input into determining where passing lanes should be built along that stretch of Highway No. 101?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, I am not so sure that maybe that hasn't already taken place. In the event that it hasn't, we would certainly be willing to work with and show our design and our plans to the local chamber of commerce, boards of trade, local elected officials, councillors or whatever. So we would certainly be prepared to share that with those interested groups.

MR. GAUDET: I want to thank the minister for his response. Mr. Chairman, moving further down Highway No. 101, you get to Digby. Unfortunately, there is one piece that is missing on Highway 1 that runs from Bedford right into Yarmouth. There have been many debates in this House over this unfinished section of Highway No. 101 that runs between Digby and Weymouth North. As a matter of fact, it is the only missing section on Highway No. 101. The minister and the department are well aware of this section and all of us are aware of the arguments that have been brought forward by so many people trying to convince

[Page 534]

the government to finish this section of Highway No. 101. I know my colleague, the honourable member for Digby-Annapolis, has raised this concern many times in this House since he was elected in 2003.

Mr. Chairman, safety is a big concern and continues to be along this 26-kilometre stretch of road. I know the question has been asked time and time again and it keeps being asked - when the section of Highway No. 101 between Weymouth and Digby will be completed. My hope is that our government will take this matter under consideration and decide, once and for all, to include it in our next highway negotiations with the federal government. So that people living along the stretch of road between Digby and Weymouth will know once and for all when to expect to see construction begin on this uncompleted section of Highway No. 101. It certainly has been way too long. So my question to the minister is, does the department have some idea of when government will eventually complete this section of Highway No. 101?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, to the honourable member opposite, thank you for the question. I just want to begin by saying that as we talked here this evening about the millions of dollars that have been spent, that are being spent, and projected to be spent on Highway No. 101- whether it's acquiring land, doing environmental assessments, whether it's grading, preparing roads, paving- a tremendous amount of money is being spent on Highway No. 101. I appreciate the honourable member's comments and I agree with him that the sooner the better, for all of us, to see that highway finished.

I'll tell the honourable member at this point that the Premier has made a commitment as well that by 2020, Yarmouth to Sydney will be either twinned or modernized. We intend on doing everything we can to ensure we meet that commitment. In regards to that specific area the member is talking about, the department has and is acquiring property along there in preparation for that section of the highway to be completed. I cannot give you a specific date this evening, honourable member. I wish I could, but I can't.

I can tell you again, with the amount of work that's being undertaken on Highway No. 101 between here and Digby, a tremendous amount of money is being spent and I think a huge commitment. I think the government has shown its commitment to that section of highway, probably looking at somewhere in the area of $65 million that we have spent, that we will spend - have spent, sorry, that we have spent. So there is a significant investment on Highway No. 101, but again, you know, when land becomes available, the department acquires the land. We will purchase that land in preparation for finishing that section of highway, but I can't give you a specific date for completion this evening.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, could the Chair indicate how much time I have left?

MR. CHAIRMAN: One minute and 20 seconds.

[Page 535]

MR. GAUDET: Thank you. Mr. Minister, you indicated that the Premier is on record for having indicated that we need to twin Highway No. 101 by 2020. Maybe we should ask the Premier to make a commitment to finish Highway No. 101 before 2020, so the people between Digby and Weymouth, once and for all, will have a sense of when the government plans to finish that missing section on Highway No. 101. I'm sure people in Digby County would certainly appreciate if it was before 2020. So with that, I will take my seat and return at a later time.

[5:00 p.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

The honourable member for Queens.

MS. VICKI CONRAD: Mr. Chairman, I want to continue where we left off earlier. I want to ask some questions, quickly, around the Build Canada Fund.

Nova Scotia is receiving federal funds of $641 million over the next seven years - that's what I understand - with $410,680,000 for the province exclusively and with approximately $231 million going out to the municipalities. With the province's share, which translates into about $59 million per year over seven years, what projects will this be invested in and how will it be invested? Will it be exclusively on a year to year basis? Is it all coming in a lump sum, or is it going to be divied out from the feds yearly, for the province, and when does this money actually start flowing?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, thank you for the question. To the honourable member, actually the province has already received the first $25 million as a result we've done over this past year. To separate them out, the Building Canada Fund, the $235 million which will be spread over seven years, is for projects such as building 100-Series Highways. That would be the type of project that we would be looking for under those. Under the base funding, $175 million would be more for things like the feeder road that we talked about earlier like Highway No.103, repaving 100-Series Highways, bridges, smaller projects such as that. This is a seven-year program and federal dollars have to be matched by provincial dollars. So we would apply to the federal government with our list of projects that we see that we want to do on an annual basis or for the seven years and the federal government would approve those. Once they approve them, then we would move on toward doing it but it requires matching of federal dollars and provincial dollars. Again, they are separated out by the two different plans, the Building Canada Fund and the base funding.

MS. CONRAD: So the province's dollars being matched, does that come out of what is in the existing projections for 2008-09, for example? Those matched fundings are already there?

[Page 536]

MR. SCOTT: Yes, that is already incorporated in the capital program.

MS. CONRAD: I want to go back to the 10-year needs study. In the department's 2001, 10-year needs study, it speaks to moving toward conducting a comprehensive condition and pavement rehabilitation which I think we touched on a little earlier. Just give me a second here. Are these surveys complete and if they are complete, are they available?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, to answer the honourable member, we have purchased the Pavement Management System. An RFP is out. We are doing the 100-Series Highways first - those surveys done this year.

MS. CONRAD: So then they will be available to the public or to members if required? Those studies, then, I understand, will be available? Also in that study, it says that rehabilitation costs for 1,629 kilometres of 100-Series Highways would cost $301 million, now this was back in 2001 obviously, over 10 years. What would those same kilometres cost today, seven years later, with all of the rising costs in fuel and asphalt? Do you have any idea of what those costs would be today?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, repaving of 100-Series Highways, 1,600 kilometres would be $48 million.

MS. CONRAD: Thank you for that. Also, in the 10-year needs study, there are three scenarios that the study points out. Based on those scenarios, they each indicate areas of priority spending. So seven years later and given the current conditions, what scenarios would you say that we were working with today in 2008?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I am sorry, I missed the last question but I will say that I made a slip a minute ago. I said $48 million, we only wish. Actually, it would be $480 million. I am sorry, I missed the last question there.

MS. CONRAD: I'm referring to Page 9 in the 10-year needs study. In that study, there are three scenarios that the department has put forward. One scenario is with $60 million plus RIM at a current funding level and these needs scenarios are based on certain conditions under those scenarios in terms of funding and RIM funding. So what I'm asking is, based on today's conditions of those three scenarios in the needs study, where are we at? What scenario are we working with - one, two or three?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, we're spending about $160 million annually, plus the $20 million annually we spend on RIM - that's for all those types of projects that we talked about earlier in regard to patching, gravel patching, brushing, ditching and so on. So it would be $160 million plus the $20 million RIM dollars.

[Page 537]

MS. CONRAD: Certainly we recognize that there are many other challenges to meeting our infrastructure deficit, and part of the challenge to meeting those needs is recruitment and retention in the workforce. That's an absolute challenge that's happening and certainly we have heard from the Nova Scotia Road Builders Association, who has 120 member companies and employ, provide jobs for well over 7,500 people and paying rates out there of anywhere between $13 and $22 and perhaps even more dollars per hour. Your department has also indicated in its own Business Plan that the government Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal also faces similar challenges in terms of recruitment and retention of the workplace.

I'm encouraged to hear that earlier in your opening remarks that you said there was partnerships being developed with First Nations and Aboriginal communities in looking at recruitment and retention and helping members from those communities find employment within either the department or the industry. What other things are you and the department doing to assist industry with recruitment and retention, and also that recruitment and retention within the department?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, actually the honourable member brings forward a very serious issue. As we hear across this province, many of the trades individuals are not available any more for various companies, and companies struggling to hire individuals. It's not something we've been used to over the last number of years but it's a huge issue today. The Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, as I had mentioned in my opening comments, has a sponsorship program in regard to technicians and engineers. We have an increase in the number of hours, I guess, guaranteed for winter operators, but we've also increased the number of spots available.

So there are, I still believe, Mr. Chairman, great opportunities for individuals within Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal in the province. I will tell the honourable member that it's something that the deputy minister and I talked about a lot over the last number of months in regard to what we may, in the future, be able to do within the department to ensure that those who work for the department now, and those who would consider working in this department, see it as a good career and a good place to work within the department to ensure that they will stay with us in this province. It's a concern that we all have and something that, again, the department is looking at and is very aware of, but we are doing some great things now I think that have helped in regard to at least specific areas of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal now where people do have opportunities and they are guaranteed work with the Province of Nova Scotia.

MS. CONRAD: With all due respect, and all of the good work that the department does and all of the work that's necessary when determining projects, understanding infrastructure, understanding where our deficits lie, in terms of whether we need to be maintaining or completely stripping up and redoing something, whether we are talking buildings or whether we are talking roads. Wouldn't it be fair to say that there comes a point

[Page 538]

when we are kind of well past a lot of studying and restudying? We do know what some of our needs are out there and it seems like a lot of time tends to get or can get lost in studying and surveying and making sure that- and I do realize that when we are spending taxpayers dollars that we have to make sure that i's are dotted and t's are crossed in terms of when we are making decisions or when the government is making decisions for those invested dollars.

But it does appear that over many years, and certainly with changing governments, that things get restudied, resurveyed, reassessed, reevaluated and in the meantime, the real work that needs to get done escalates in cost because of all the changing conditions, the rise in fuel prices, labour and all other materials increase. So we always seem to be behind the eight ball.

So do you think that we would be better off spending more dollars on the actual work that needs to get done and get past some of- and I know that we can't translate one study that was done 10 years ago and bring it forward 10 years later. We all recognize that not necessarily all the same things apply from 10 years ago to today but it does seem that we do invest a lot in those studies and surveys. So can we look at, or can the department look at paring some of that down and reinvesting those dollars into the real work that needs to be done?

MR. SCOTT: Thank you Mr. Chairman and thank you to the member opposite. I think we all agree that the more money we can allocate into TCA, into operating, into our employees, would be money well spent. I just want to quote some numbers here to the honourable member, and I will just use the capital list. In 1999-2000, we spent $46 million on capital. In the year 2000-01, we spent $44 million. In the year 2001-02, we went up to $63 million. In 2002-03, we went up to $90 million. In 2003-04, it was $106 million. In 2004-05, it was $112 million. . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I can't hear the minister delivering what would likely be some very important numbers. So if we could just keep it a little quieter.

MR. SCOTT: In 2005-06, $142 million. In 2006-07, $176 million. In 2007-08, $139 million and this year, Mr. Chairman, 2008-09, $145 million.

[5:15 p.m.]

I know the honourable member spoke about studies. Whether it is a 10-year plan that we put out, people are looking for that and opposition members look for that. When it comes to environmental assessments, we need to do them in regard to work, not only is it work that has to be done for obvious reasons but also, it is required by the federal government so we have to do those studies. I think this government made a significant investment in infrastructure and in highways in the last nine years, as a result of those numbers I just read. So whether it is additional highway work we are doing on 100-Series Highways, whether it

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is additional secondary roads, local roads, whether it is additional equipment we are buying, I read the list earlier of the equipment we are buying. I think if you look 10 years ago compared to today, this government is and has made significant investment in actual work on our highways. I truly believe that Nova Scotians recognize that.

I know the honourable member said earlier about roads in her own riding and I agree. I have some in my own riding as well, lots of them - we all do. We only wish we had the money to do them all but if you look at the RIM money, as a good example, not that many years ago, when the RIM program was started, it was $9 million. Today it is $20 million. It is double. Again, significant investment but also I believe Nova Scotians are showing and talking about the great work that is being done with this money. Sure, we would love to have more, there would be lots of places where we could spend triple that amount, but the realities are that we have so much money to spend on infrastructure with regard to our highways, so much money to spend on staff and it's very important to recognize that. I truly believe that we have really shown Nova Scotians that as a government we believe - and I'm proud to be the minister of this department - that we have placed a significant amount of emphasis on this department and it shows the money is being spent.

Again, a lot of these things the honourable member brings forward - I know she's being sincere about it - a lot of them need to be done, whether they're strategic plans we have for the province, whether it's environmental assessments. The federal government, with regard to us accessing that $630 million-plus over the next seven years, determined and deemed that we have to provide a plan within a year as to where we see that money being spent.

We just can't take the dollars from the federal government without support from those documents, so we have to do that, we are doing that. I believe we're making great headway in this province. There will always be room to do more, especially in rural Nova Scotia. I think we have made great strides over the last number of years with regard to infrastructure, particularly highways and bridges in Nova Scotia.

MS. CONRAD: Thank you for that answer. Certainly it is understood that when we're looking for monies, whether it's from our federal counterparts or - it's like if a homeowner or someone goes to the bank, you have to supply the plan in order to meet the criteria and approval for any money. That's completely understood.

I don't feel that the investments made are because - there has been substantial investment, without question. But, 10 years later, your costs are going to rise so of course you have to step up to the plate and put the resources in there, because all of the costs have increased. If the shingles on the roof of my house go, after 20 years, I'm paying more for those shingles in the materials and the labour today than I would have 20 years ago, so you have to put in an increased investment.

[Page 540]

We have, as we all recognize, and has been said here in the House many, many times - we have a serious deficit and it's going to be years before we even make any dent in that deficit. Regardless of where those investments are going to be spent, whether it's on twinning our highways, upgrading a particular stretch of the 100-series highways, fixing five bridges in one year, the deficit will continue to grow. We'll have to continue making more investments each year to catch up and we're still not going to catch up. So, all of the good investments are really, when you weigh it out- because it's years later, because conditions have changed, but we're still not addressing the deficit.

The infrastructure that we're not investing in continues to deteriorate, and the more something deteriorates, the more it's going to cost to bring up to standards. That's just the way it is. So we can look at different ways of explaining away those good investments.

When the department is looking at our 100-series highways, what type of analysis goes into determining whether or not a section of our 100-series highways should be twinned or whether a section should be brought up to safer standards? We all recognize that twinning of our highways is a tremendous cost and absolutely, there are sections like Highway No. 101, and all the work that's gone into the 101. My colleague to the left of me and everybody looks forward to seeing a completion date for that highway.

But it doesn't mean that all 100-series highways need to be twinned, or should be twinned. A tremendous cost goes into twinning, the purchase of land, the clearing of land, the extra equipment needed to come in and get that land ready to put in a highway. Again, the question is, what type of analysis goes into determining whether a section should be twinned or should not be twinned. I guess the bottom line is the monies that could be saved from perhaps a twinning project that could be best suited to an upgrade. Those dollars could actually then be spent into secondary roads if that is determined through the analysis.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, thank you to the member opposite. Just to one of the comments the honourable member made in regard to the costs going up every year. You are absolutely right but again, if you look at the chart and the numbers I read, I think you will find that this government has increased the annual budget every year far more than what those costs would have been when you consider that we started at a base of $47 million. I think the commitment is there and I think the commitment has been shown by this government and I think we have done a tremendous job over the last nine years in regard to where we have been to where we are today. Again, I think the increases are far more than what, for example, just the increase in cost would have been when you look at where we started.

Now the honourable member asked about how you make a decision with regard to twinning of highways and what facts are used. Basically, it would be a highway that you would see 10,000 vehicles or more on per day. That would determine whether we would then look at twinning that highway and moving ahead. I think the honourable member would

[Page 541]

agree, as well, movement of people and goods is certainly an issue and has been done in as fast a process as possible. Even more so than that, the safety of people traveling our highways - our local residents and tourists alike - has to be paramount in regard to the decision we make about highways. I think you would find that the twinning of highways certainly makes traveling on our roads and highways in our province a lot safer for them.

The other thing is that with the federal government, there are certain criteria as to where we can access federal money for building of highways, and particularly 100-Series Highways. The federal government has agreed with us now that they will cost-share on all bridges in the province. So if we have bridges that we want to look at replacing in the province, which we have over the last number of years, we've convinced the federal government that they will allow us to make those part of the cost-sharing agreement with the federal government. We have also lobbied the federal government in regard to our secondary highways, asking that they would consider, because of what the honourable member said earlier, the roadbeds and shape of our secondary highways, there is a lot of need there as well.

So we have asked the federal government and continue to lobby the federal government, in regard to secondary roads, asking them to allow those secondary roads to become part of the cost-sharing program as well. As at this point, the federal government hasn't agreed with us yet. They have agreed on the bridges but we will continue to lobby the federal government because we believe, as well, that those secondary roads, as you said, are very important to communities. We realize that and we need to try to convince the federal government to make that part of the cost-sharing program as well.

MS. CONRAD: I want to go back to the budget lines. On Page 23.5, under highways and bridges, in 2007, the department estimated that in excess of $35 million was spent on surface maintenance. You are forecasting to have spent well over $40 million. Yet there seems to be a decrease in the funding for 2008-09 to a little over $34 million. So that is almost an $830,000 decrease. That is of concern to me because that is surface maintenance work and surface maintenance - am I to understand that comes out of our RIM funds or is that another fund? Where is it exactly coming from? That is a concern to see that decrease in surface maintenance.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, just back to earlier. We talked about an issue around accounting where, as an example, a specific piece of equipment at one time would have been billed to the area where it was going, to the area depot or to the area director. Originally, it would have been billed at one time to them. I am sorry, it is the overhead. Now, it is being billed directly through Miller Lake. So it is an accounting process. Instead of those monies being billed out to the areas, it is being billed through Miller Lake.

MS. CONRAD: Is it possible to get a more detailed analysis of the budget so that one understands the accounting procedures that actually happen when we're looking at budget

[Page 542]

items here. So that when we are asking questions, we can actually ask questions that truly reflect or will pick up on any increases or decreases to these types of budget lines?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I guess just to maybe make it a little clearer so we all understand, a good example that was just given to me was a clerk in a specific area who's billing for fuel charges for us here centrally. Instead of that person being billed to the local depot or local operation when they're doing work for us, it's not billed any longer, now it's billed from us directly to Miller Lake. So actually it's money that would have been billed to the local area for work they're doing for us and that would go through Miller Lake centrally.

MS. CONRAD: So where am I seeing that money in the budget line? What budget line am I seeing those billings to Miller Lake?

MR. SCOTT: It would be on Page 23.7 under fleet management.

MS. CONRAD: Thank you - that's right, you pointed that out earlier. The next line that I notice a decrease is within drainage maintenance. So is that, too, a billing or an accounting procedure?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, to the honourable member, we would actually allocate X number of dollars to each area and they would determine which their specific area required more monies for. If you look below, you'll see bridge maintenance is up. So drainage maintenance may be down but bridge maintenance is up but overall (Interruption) Yes, again, another way of accounting change where the actual area manager themselves would determine where the most need is. So, again, if you look and drainage is down but bridge maintenance is up, so it balances out.

MS. CONRAD: So if that's the case then and say in this budget year coming up, 2008-09, an area manager finds themselves in a different position whereas they were looking for more bridge maintenance funds as opposed to drainage funds and we have a season where we see a lot of unexpected flooding in and around some community roads that require more drainage funds. Does that area manager have the ability to take from their excess in bridge funds and put it into drainage maintenance if need be?

[5:30 p.m.]

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, thank you to the member opposite. The answer is yes. You know area managers and you know OSs, as I'm sure she has worked with them as I have, and lots of times things come up. They have a budget and allocation for specific areas but, you know, things can happen, whether it's the weather, whatever issue may come along. They have the ability and the discretion with their own budget to move money around where they see the need. I'm in the northern region and she's in the southern part. Obviously, the

[Page 543]

different weather conditions, whatever, so the answer is, yes, they would have the ability and discretion within their own budgets to move that money around.

MS. CONRAD: Could you explain one more budget line on this particular page and that's the miscellaneous, what is that for, and in the forecast the figure is in brackets, so does that mean a deficit?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, that would actually be the equipment account and that would have shown a surplus from last year, the $2 million, so this year we are just budgeting $1 million for it.

MS. CONRAD: Thank you for that answer. In terms of bridges, how far along are we in addressing the deficit with bridges? I can certainly tell you that in my area, of two bridges, one came to my attention just last week. Salters Brook Bridge is one bridge that I know residents have been hopeful, for the past couple of years, that that bridge would actually be replaced. Another bridge that just came to my attention is the Pond Bridge in Mill Village. So I am looking to see where we are in our bridge deficit and what the plans are, perhaps, in my area, with the two bridges that I've mentioned, Salters Brook Bridge and the Pond Bridge.

Just to give you a bit more background on the Pond Bridge - I was talking to department staff last week in regard to this particular bridge. It's a small bridge. There is only one resident on the other side of the bridge coming from our community road in Mill Village, the secondary road. Of course, I am not sure how many residents are on that end of the road, but currently, the only person to access that bridge is one resident. However, that is about to change. It's about to change because there was property bought in this particular area. The homeowners are very concerned because this bridge is in serious disrepair and there is a weight allowance, or a weight restriction, of I believe it is 50,000 kilograms, would it be? Not kilograms. Anyway, there is a weight restriction that is a huge concern for the property owners who just purchased this property, because they are looking to get in with trucks, with heavy material for construction.

Also, there is a community hall on the other side of the bridge that a community group has been working toward getting it renovated so that the public can actually come in and use this community hall, which means there will be more traffic than just the one resident currently, who is accessing, or needing to access their property, by way of this bridge. I understand from local staff that this particular bridge definitely does need to be replaced. It is in that serious disrepair right now. So, again, the deficit on bridges, and I am hoping that the minister will lend his eye to Salters Brook Bridge and Pond Bridge.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for her questions and also concerns. Just on your local request, we will endeavour to get that information for you and try to get a little more information about it. As the honourable member would know, we

[Page 544]

have an annual bridge inspection. The program is underway now. We have had a program of replacing steel truss bridges, which has been extended now three more years, so there will be more bridges replaced over the next number of years.

Currently we have about $30 million in our annual budget, both for capital and for maintenance for bridges, but the good part of that is that now the federal government has agreed to allow the bridges to be part of that cost-sharing program. That will allow us to do even more work in regard to bridges. In the last number of years this department has endeavoured to step up the program in regard to bridges. Again, the annual inspection helps a lot, and on the local situation for the honourable member, we will endeavour to try to find out what the issue is around that specific bridge.

I know the honourable member wasn't quite clear on the weight limit but, as was pointed out to me - for example, if it is 18 tons, that will certainly allow any local traffic other than trucks. I don't know if that is a concern as well, or just local car traffic is a concern, but we will get the information on that bridge for the honourable member and provide that back to her.

Again, just on bridges, the program has been stepped up here in regard to replacement bridges and, again, the steel truss bridge program is something I know is well-received around the province and the federal government's cost-sharing on the bridges will certainly help us in regard to that program.

MS. CONRAD: Thank you and I apologize for not being clear around the Pond Bridge and in terms of the weight restriction, I just received the information. Pond Bridge in Mill Village and what I'll do is in the coming days, I will bring to the minister and the department more information around that. So at least, I can get back to the residents and the community historical group looking after that community hall, so that they have an idea of if and when that bridge can at have some repair or a look-see.

I know that the department has been looking at the bridge; it's not that they haven't been. I'm sure it has been part of the annual inspection. I noticed a couple of weeks ago there were a number of pylons on that bridge so, obviously, the department is well aware - the local department. I will also get as much information as I can to you and other staff.

I want to go back to 100-Series highways and in particular a section on Highway No. 103. I've written the minister a few times now and have made contact with the department as well with regard to this particular section. The section I'm referring to is the Highway No. 103 between Broad River in Queens and the Sable River in Shelburne County.

As I indicated in the House before, this particular section of the highway has seen a number of accidents over the years. It's very dangerous in one section of that highway. There is a hairpin, sharp turn that is, and can be, extremely dangerous and the sight lines are really

[Page 545]

not good in that particular section. Many residents in that area have been contacting my office on a regular basis wanting to know updates on when a bypass could be looked at for that area.

I understand that many years ago, there was a study and actually a design and some plans looked at for a particular bypass for this section of the highway. What I've been hearing in the last six months now, I've been hearing rumours that there would be an announcement forthcoming, that this section of the highway would be looked at. If not for a bypass, at least the start - to kind of take that sharp curve off the one particular section of Highway No. 103. I've been hearing rumours this announcement would come with federal dollars attached. Residents have assured me they have been told that federal monies will be forthcoming from the member for South Shore-St. Margaret's.

I'd like to put to rest whether or not it is rumours or whether or not it is actually fact. We do know that the building futures money that's coming, or Building Canada Funds, money that's coming our way, or is already in hand, some of it, whether or not some of that money will be allotted for a bypass or a start to a bypass in that area of Highway No. 103?

MR. SCOTT: I'd like to thank the honourable member for her questions again. The honourable member would have heard the previous speaker who has been advocating that we spend more money on Highway No. 101. I know it's a great concern to the folks along there, as well. We have so many dollars here to spend and we're caught in between both. They're both great, worthwhile projects.

I said earlier that the Minister of Community Services and the Minister of Energy and all the MLAs, the Minister of Immigration, have all petitioned the government and put strong cases forward with regard to Highway No. 103. You're absolutely right, the member for that area, the MP, Mr. Keddy - as I said earlier, I have discussed the issue with him and he's very anxious to see something happen on Highway No. 103 as well.

Highway No. 103 would qualify not under the Build Canada Fund, but under the base funding because it's a feeder road. I can tell you there has been a lot of work in regards to Highway No. 103 and I can't tell you when there may or may not be an announcement, you know. I can tell you there's a lot of work being done in that regard. We're very interested in Highway No. 103 and seeing some work done on that when we can find funds to do it but, again, we're balancing off between the other projects we have underway that we talked about earlier and the need to get those done.

There's certainly a great need on Highway No. 103, I've been down there myself. I've travelled that highway with the Minister of Energy who wanted me to see it firsthand and, you know, there's no question about it. There's a tremendous need to do something with Highway No. 103 and we're committed to doing that, it's just when we're going to be able to do it. I can't tell you tonight but I can tell you that I am prepared, the department is

[Page 546]

prepared, and the government is prepared to work with our federal counterparts to make that happen as soon as we possibly can. The total project, probably, will be in the vicinity of somewhere around $65 million. So as you can see, it will be a huge commitment but we're committed to doing something as soon as we possibly can on Highway No. 103, when the funds are available.

MS. CONRAD: I will respectfully suggest that our portion of the Build Canada Fund, even though I know the base funds are - I understand now that that's where the money comes from. But in a year and a half, that could be done if we just invested our portion into that section of the highway. If we do it now, the prices, perhaps, will still be stable for a bit.

I would like to talk about some of our secondary roads and we both recognized and, in fact, many members here have recognized that we all have secondary roads that need to be addressed. We can't pave them all. Certainly they can't be stripped down to the bare gravel and started again and built up. We all recognize that, but I think we also I think need to recognize that they are gateways to our communities. They are gateways for our residents, linking each other, community to community. They are important for our school buses. Our school buses are probably, other than residents travelling back and forth, one of the most common vehicles we see on our secondary roads, our school buses transporting children at least twice a day through our communities and over those secondary roads.

Some of the secondary roads that have been brought to my attention over the past two years are the secondary road in southwest Port Mouton; the secondary road in West Caledonia; the secondary road in Westfield; the secondary road in Voglers Cove; the Hirtle Road that actually links Highway No. 103 into Voglers Cove; the Crousetown Road, or some of us call it the Italy Cross Road, that goes from Highway No. 103, exit 15, down in Petite Rivière; the secondary roads in and around Petite Rivière; the secondary roads on our Lighthouse Route in and around Port Medway and East Port Medway.

[5:45 p.m.]

All of these roads are so important to our communities and I can't stress that enough. I know the minister recognizes that and I know the department recognizes that but we really need to see a plan, a comprehensive plan that will really look at investing in that particular infrastructure when we talk about all the dollars that need to be spent on our 100-Series Highways. Those dollars are very, very important but we do need to see a more balanced approach in the budget that actually addresses those secondary roads because in order to build on the economy - and especially in rural Nova Scotia, to attract people to move into our communities - we have to have the infrastructure that attracts people there, that will keep business moving in and around our rural communities. We need those secondary roads in order to get to our main arteries. We need those secondary roads in order to get into our 100-Series Highways.

[Page 547]

So I'm asking the department, through the studies and the surveys that are done, to identify those secondary roads that really do need more than just a patch job, or need more than just better ditching. I mean, obviously, better ditching is required in order to make - it's preventative maintenance, ditching, and that needs to happen, but a lot of these roads really need to be resurfaced. When I look back at some of the comments in the needs studies, I mean one of the definitions, or not definitions but one of ways to prioritize our secondary roads, or any of our road systems, is by aging. Some of our secondary roads are close to 20 years old in some places. Some have maxed 20 years and beyond. It was identified in the needs study that once a road reaches, and especially a secondary road, once a road reaches 20 years, that is time for rehabilitation and in my mind, rehabilitation means totally revamping that road and not just patching. So we have a serious deficit and we all know that and I appreciate the minister recognizing that.

So for communities in my riding that I have identified, these roads can be moved from my riding to any other riding across the province and we will still be faced with the same issues. I can only name right now my roads in my riding, in my communities, for the residents who live in my community. So could the minister just indicate to me what is the future vision for prioritizing the work that needs to be done for our secondary roads, especially those ones that are reaching 20 years old and beyond.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the honourable member because I know that discussions I have had with her since she became the critic and I have come to the department - that she is very passionate about this issue, particularly local roads in her own community. Whether it's a road to a museum or to a business, a small business. Whether it's a road for a lot of people in rural Nova Scotia, who lost a lot of the services over the years for various reasons. A lot of times they only ask for a good road to travel on to reach those services that are not located in their communities any more, whether it be a bank or whatever.

I know the honourable member will appreciate this. We have X number of dollars in our department this year, same as we did last year, to try to find the best way to spend those dollars and to try to find the right process when it comes to repaving a road, depending on the condition of the road and the amount of traffic. Obviously, the 100-Series Highways in this province are very important in regard to the truck traffic. It brings all the services into Nova Scotia and it takes the goods out of Nova Scotia. I know in my own constituency in Parrsboro, Parrsboro Metal Fabricators Ltd., where they build furnaces and these furnaces are shipped all over the U.S - a lot of times they have talked to me about the condition of the road and what it means to their product.

So you know we have to do the best we can with the dollars that we have. When we look at 100-Series Highways compared to trunks and routes, trying to put as much money as we can into those and get those up to some sort of standard where the local communities will realize that the dollars are being spent in a meaningful way. Of course, then getting down to those secondary roads the honourable member mentioned. I can list many, as well,

[Page 548]

of my own. I have said to people in my own area, we have to ensure that we get the main tourist routes, the main truck routes, get those up to par as quickly as possible. Then try to find some dollars somewhere along the line to address the issues of those secondary routes where, as I mentioned, there are many volunteers, for example, in museums. I know in my own area, they commit hours upon hours of volunteer work to those communities. They just want to see the road in that area particularly upgraded.

Again, we have so many dollars to allocate to those initiatives. We have to make decisions based on facts that we have. As I talked about a moment ago, the dollars only do go so far. Keeping in mind what we talked about earlier that ,as fuel goes up and as petroleum and liquid asphalt increases - as those things go up for our contractors, our road builders - we have to ensure we make up those dollars to them. We make up the money for escalating fuel cost for the truckers. Considering all that, we do continue to encourage the federal government to allow us to cost-share, extend that cost-sharing program to secondary roads. They have agreed to do it with bridges, which is a great help, but we really need them to agree to cost-share on our secondary roads as well.

Again, I want to go back to what I said earlier, the commitment by the Premier - 2,000 kilometres is one thing, twinning and modernizing of our roads from Yarmouth to Sydney by 2020 is another thing, another side of it. We have seen a huge increase in regard to capital in the last nine years, which again I believe is recognized by Nova Scotians from one end of Nova Scotia to the other. The RIM money, which I wouldn't want anybody to underestimate for a moment. Good things are being done in our rural constituency with that RIM money. It has doubled. I know a lot of people say to me, yes, they would love to see that road completely paved, but when they see spreader patching on the road, they see a lot of those bad holes filled in, maybe not the full meal deal they would like to see, but I think they appreciate when they see some work being done that they haven't seen for quite a while.

Again, the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal is given X number of dollars per year, in our budget, to do the best we can with. I think the staff do a great job on it, and I think we will continue to see that kind of commitment from this government in the future. I appreciate what the honourable member said. I know I have heard this same story from lots of my own members, on this side of the House, who come to me on a regular basis and I have to tell them the same thing, that we have been given X number of dollars in our budget this year and I have to try to spread that out as much as we can.

It doesn't give everybody everything they want but I will go back to what I said to one of the first questions the honourable asked me, is that there will be paving contracts in every riding where we have a provincial responsibility this year. Again, it is a matter of prioritizing where that money will be spent. We have had an increased budget and I think we will continue to see that from this government. I think we have seen quit a significant, not only an increase, but a commitment from this government with regard to transportation in this province and I think we will see that in the future as well.

[Page 549]

MS. CONRAD: I just want to make a comment on the RIM funding. Absolutely, the increase in RIM funding is a good thing. I would like to see even more increases because the local area supervisors really know what they are doing when they get out there, and they look around, and they know where to spend that RIM money. Certainly, more flexibility, if there needs to be more flexibility, I would suggest, I heard - in our conversation some time ago, you did indicate that there was flexibility with the RIM funds. However, the previous minister, in Question Period - I know I had raised the issue and it was unclear as to how much flexibility there was with that RIM fund. So I am hoping that the flexibility is there and, of course, more increases to that.

Maybe the department and the minister could look at sometime even expanding the mandate of that RIM program to including, perhaps, more preventive maintenance, which I know is part of the RIM funding. They do that - preventive maintenance - but perhaps more leeway can be given and perhaps the department can look at other uses for that RIM funding.

I want to talk very briefly and ask questions around our gravel roads. We all recognize that gravel roads are, and can be, a bone of contention for many residents throughout Nova Scotia. I am not suggesting, by any stretch, that all gravel roads need to be paved because that is absolutely a falsehood. There are many gravel roads out there that are actually better, in some respects, than some of our paved roads. In fact, a lot of residents who live on some of those gravel roads are quite content with the upkeep of those gravel roads and certainly recognize that their gravel roads are better than, perhaps, their neighbours' paved roads. But we also recognize that there are many gravel roads out there because of the type of gravel, the type of aggregate, the type of environment that the gravel road is built through - they are not good gravel roads and perhaps should be paved because there are volume levels of perhaps 300 or 500 vehicles a day traveling on some of these gravel roads that perhaps should be paved because of volume.

Could you indicate to me, in the short time that we have left, what are the plans for some of the gravel roads in the province? Is there a monitoring of gravel roads still going on that perhaps should, or could be paved, and what process looks like. Again, I want to strongly suggest that not all gravel roads should be paved in this province. I had heard comments earlier through the week that perhaps, on this side of the House, we would suggest that all gravel roads in the province should be paved and that is not the case. There are many gravel roads that are the envy of some people living in (Interruption) Well, that is what I am asking the minister to identify, how they are being identified.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member again for the questions. It is far from me to get up and say that anybody was asking to have all the gravel roads in Nova Scotia paved. There are a whole lot of issues around paving of gravel roads. One is that every gravel road that was paved in this province which was indicated to me and shown to me through the department was that, as you can see the situation we are in now, we are trying to repair, repave, through whatever process, our secondary paved roads. We would add more

[Page 550]

to that inventory. So we would end up with a lot more paved roads that need a lot more maintenance money spent over the next number of years so we would actually make the situation worse.

I do agree that there are a lot of gravel roads - I know in my own constituency, and I am sure in the honourable member's - that are well maintained. They are graveled, they are graded, they are chlorided, they are ditched. There is an opportunity for the OS and the area manager, through the RIM money, to dedicate money to those gravel roads. I guess the question is, do we have a plan today to pave our gravel roads in Nova Scotia? I would have to say no and for those reasons.

We do have a cost-sharing program available which we increased from $1 million to $2 million where municipalities can apply for subdivision in J-class roads that we will cost-share with them. There is an opportunity for municipalities and we have actually submitted to municipalities to give us the list of the number of dollars we can offer to them and what list they submit to us. We have actually gone through that process this year already and that is in the works now. I know a lot of municipalities take advantage of that opportunity.

Again, for every road that we would pave in this province that is gravel today, that means more maintenance money and operational money that is required three, four, five years from now. When we are having a struggle with the challenges we are facing today with the increase in costs and trying to maintain those paved roads we have today, I think we would actually do disservice to a lot of the parts of the province. That is not to say that I am sure there are some places in Nova Scotia, for some gravel roads that it would be great if we had the additional money that we could pave those roads and have additional money for operational in the years to come to commit to those roads. The realty being that we just don't have those dollars today.

I said this in the House last week, and I even had to say it to people in my own area that unfortunately they shouldn't expect to see that and I know that's not what they want to hear. They want to hear this gravel road will be paved, one thing that they can expect to be done and I have actually had to say to folks that the truth of the matter is, they probably won't see it. However, I am saying that the local area and the local area manager and the local OS do a tremendous job in regard to upgrading roads. A lot of times a gravel road is a lot easier to maintain and to bring up to par, when you look at the kind of monies and the kind of work that is required on a paved road.

So I do think that there is an opportunity to continue spending money through RIM projects, through our RIM money in regard to gravel roads and a lot of good . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

[Page 551]

MR. SCOTT: I see the Chairman is telling me my time is up. So I look forward to discussing it further in a few minutes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The time for the honourable member has expired.

As well, we have reached the moment of interruption.

[6:00 p.m. The committee recessed.]

[6:30 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. We'll now resume with the estimates.

The honourable member for Clare.

MR. WAYNE GAUDET: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When I left the debate on the department's estimates last, I was speaking and asking questions on different projects along Highway No. 101. I want to continue where I left off. I was speaking on finishing Highway No. 101 between Digby and Weymouth North.

Mr. Chairman, in our Speech From The Throne that was delivered by Her Honour back on November 22, 2007, I quote, ". . . we will improve our road system through a program to twin and modernize highways from Yarmouth to Sydney by 2020."

Again, Mr. Chairman, as I indicated earlier, what the people of Digby County, and especially the people living between Digby and Weymouth North, would have liked to have heard in the Speech From The Throne - instead of talk about twinning the highways from Sydney to Yarmouth by 2020 - was for government to announce when the missing section of Highway No. 101 between Digby and Weymouth would be completed. So I hope, before long, that the government will undertake to inform the people, especially the folks who are living along that stretch of highway between Weymouth and Digby, when government is planning to complete that missing section of Highway No. 101.

Mr. Chairman, I want to again continue along Highway No. 101. Back in May 2007, at a public meeting in Yarmouth that was organized by the staff of the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, there were several proposed changes that were presented at that meeting. One of them was a connector road between Highway No. 101 and Highway No. 103. So my question to the minister is, has there been any further discussion on this proposal? Let's begin with that one.

HON. MURRAY SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank the member opposite for the question. Yes, the public meeting did bring forth some interesting

[Page 552]

information from the department. I know there's an assessment being done of that information and that'll go into helping us when it comes to designing that section.

I do want to say that the Premier's commitment of twinning or modernizing our highways from Sydney to Yarmouth by 2020 does include that project that the honourable member is bringing forward here today, it will be part of our overall plan. Again, all I can say tonight is that the information we've received will make up part of the go-forward on this in regard to a design and again, the department is looking at the design now. I'm not sure how detailed it is at this point but it is in the process of moving forward. Thank you.

MR. GAUDET: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll ask the Page to provide the minister with a copy of the article and the design that was made public at that public meeting in Yarmouth.

I guess my next question to the minister, is the department considering at this time to go forward with such a proposal and if so, could the minister indicate are we looking at next year, in the next five years?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member opposite. I know the member opposite will appreciate that with the work we're presenting doing through the department on Highway No. 125, Highway No. 104 and Highway No.101, we talked here today about doing work on Highway No. 103 and obviously the work the honourable member is talking about here tonight. There is a tremendous amount of work being done in this province today with regard to highways. We've made a commitment, the Premier has made a commitment to twinning and modernizing our highways. I can tell the honourable member that many of these projects are underway now, in some of them we're in the process of acquiring the land, in some areas we're doing environmental assessments, in some areas we're doing grading, in some other areas they're actually doing paving this year. There are various stages throughout, but there's a tremendous amount of work right across this province with regard to modernizing our highways and upgrading and twinning.

As I said earlier, this is certainly part of our plan and it is part of our plan for the future. I cannot give the member a specific date as to when we expect to move to the next stage. As I said, there is commitment, particularly on Highway No. 101, those projects we talked about earlier tonight that are in various stages that are moving forward, we want to complete those. We want to continue working down through Highway No. 101 and some of those will mean passing lanes which will be rolling out in the near future.

Although there are various sections and various stages right now, there's a tremendous amount of work going on, a huge commitment from the province and the federal government with regard to monies. I will say the project the member talks about tonight is part of it, but I can't give a specific date as to when to expect to see work on that part.

[Page 553]

MR. GAUDET: I appreciate the information the minister is providing. I'm sure within his department there are many projects on the table looking for funding or looking to further be advanced.

I was curious, when I read this, and there were a couple of people from my area that raised questions with me, again, when the government was looking. Of course, when they saw the article - and some people from home did actually attend that meeting - they assumed, right away, that highway was going to be built in the very near future. That's understandable.

I would indicate to the minister, there are a lot of people, not just living in Digby County, but heading towards Yarmouth on Highway No. 101 and branching off on Highway No. 103. If at some point the department is looking at putting a connector road between those two 100-Series Highways, I'm quite sure the motorists would certainly appreciate that effort.

Again, I want to move on to another topic along Highway No. 101 and it's about the car pool parking lots. There are a number of car pool parking lots along Highway No. 101 when you leave Bedford right into Yarmouth. In Clare, the department has constructed several of these car pool parking lots. I can tell the minister that motorists are very grateful, very pleased with the work carried out by your department staff. In Clare, there are two of them, they're both located at the far end of our municipality. One is at exit 28, in St. Bernard, and the other one is at exit 31, at the St. Martin-Meteghan exit.

Unfortunately, this winter during one of our snowstorms, motorists could not park their vehicles in those car pool parking lots. They had to find somewhere else to park that day. I've heard from a few of those individuals. What they failed to understand, minister, is why those parking lots can't be plowed at the same time the snowplow goes by. I understand the department's policy is to plow these lots when all the roads have been cleared.

Minister, I would say for the sake of a few minutes, because we're not looking at a very large parking area, I would hope the department would review its policy and reconsider plowing these lots at the same time the plows are going by. People who are car pooling, especially on those mornings when weather is not too promising at the time, arrive and park their vehicle and find that they're unable to enter these parking lots. They have to either park along the highway, which certainly makes it more difficult especially for the snowplow operators to clear the snow, because they were planning to leave their vehicles around those exits and go in with some of their friends to Yarmouth or Digby to work.

So I would like to ask the minister if he's prepared to take this concern back to his department to review the department's policy. As I said, for the sake of a few minutes, to make some of these motorists unhappy and at the same time to leave their vehicles alongside the road certainly create more problems for the snowplow operators. To leave these parking lots until all the roads are clear then come back certainly creates other problems, especially

[Page 554]

for the snowplow operators. So I would ask the minister if he'll take it back to his department to review this policy.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member opposite for the concern. Certainly I'll discuss that with the department in regard to the issue the honourable member brings forward. I think car pooling is a great way for a lot of individuals to organize themselves for work and other things and I think that it's a great way to save on gas money as well. So I think they are a tremendous asset throughout the province and I appreciate the honourable member's comments about the department and the great work they do in that regard.

I will just say that it reminds me of the way the department would prioritize plowing roads in the province. A lot of people kind of question why a main highway will be plowed and they say the plow goes right by their secondary road and why don't they come in and just plow that out, they're going by anyway, it will only take a few minutes But I always tell them that it doesn't make much sense if they can get out of their secondary road and the main highway is not plowed anyway. So there is not much point of them getting out to that road, but I do appreciate the member's concern. I'm sure it's probably the same case here that they prioritize the roads, try to open the main highways first, then on down to the secondary roads and then the local roads. I will pass that along to the department on behalf of the honourable member and see if there's anything that can be done in that regard.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for undertaking to take it back. I'll ask one of the Pages to bring a copy of this letter to the minister. Again on these car pool parking lots, a number of years ago I was told by a former Minister of Transportation, Ron Russell at the time, a couple of years back, that the department was working on developing a policy that would deal with the design and the maintenance service of these car pool parking lots. My question to the minister is, has the department completed developing a policy for car pool parking lots?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, thank you to the member opposite. It's my understanding that the review was complete but I'll endeavour to get that information and provide it to the honourable member because I don't have it at my fingertips right now.

MR. GAUDET: I have one other area before I leave Highway No. 101 and it's about the service road along Highway No. 101. We see these roads, Mr. Chairman, along Highway No. 101 to allow property owners to use the service road to access their properties, their woodlot along Highway No. 101, but I've received a few calls, especially in the last year, about the condition of this service road. Sometimes there's, I'll say real big holes on the service road that have been created by tractors, by tree farmers, by wood harvesters, or sometimes there are areas where the ditches along the service roads are plugged and the water is just running on the road. There are other areas where there are no ditches, or culverts, and the water gathers in certain spots, certain areas, especially at the foot of a hill

[Page 555]

and you basically have these small ponds. That's a very muddy area. I guess my first question to the minister is, what is the department policy on maintaining these service roads?

[6:45 p.m.]

MR. SCOTT: I thank the member opposite for the question. The policy around service roads, or access roads, is that the department provides very minimal service year round to those. In fact, in the summer, there will be some gravelling and grading of those roads; there will be no winter maintenance of those roads. In other words, there is no plowing in the winter.

Those roads were originally constructed to allow individuals who own property along highways that were developed, and had controlled access, to have access to their lands. So, there's a very minimal amount of service provided throughout the year, and especially, there's none in the winter. I know it's an issue, I've heard in my own area and have been approached by individuals about access roads and what was the intention of the government back when they were developed. I've asked the department as well and we are going to take a look at these access roads throughout the province, but at this point in time, very minimal service, just gravelling and grading in the summer.

MR. GAUDET: Thank you. Again, to the minister, the fact there's sometimes grading that's carried out, I'm just wondering, is there is any budget allocation set aside for maintaining these service roads at the local level, or is it at the regional level? I guess what I'm tyring to find out is, when there are concerns, these concerns should be brought to whose attention? Is it the local office supervisor, or is it to the regional area manager?

MR. SCOTT: There's no specific budget, no line item, no specific budget for service along service roads or access roads. The local area supervisor would have a summer maintenance budget, as all would across the province, and those that have access roads in their area would be expected to deal with that in their existing budget.

Again, it's a very minimal amount of service, I don't think it would be a huge item for a lot of them, however, they would be expected to take that out of their normal, summer maintenance budget.

MR. GAUDET: I think some of these property owners have been told these roads have a tractor standard. We're getting close? I guess, with that, I move we adjourn the debate on the minister's estimates and return on a future day. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The time allotted for debate on Committee of the Whole House on Supply has expired.

The honourable Acting Deputy Government House Leader.

[Page 556]

HON. WILLIAM DOOKS: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I move the committee rise and report progress.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

[The committee adjourned at 6:49 p.m.]