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April 5, 2001
Veterans Affairs
Standing Committees
Meeting topics: 
Veterans Affairs -- Thur., Apr. 5, 2001

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HALIFAX, THURSDAY, APRIL 5, 2001

STANDING COMMITTEE ON VETERANS AFFAIRS

9:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. William Langille

MR. CHAIRMAN: First of all, I would like to welcome everybody here this morning. My name is Bill Langille and I will be the chairman this morning. Also, at this time I would like the members of the committee to introduce themselves, but before that our guest is Mr. Phillip Burke, Vice-President of the Korea War Veterans.

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Burke, what we usually do is have you do your presentation and then we will ask some questions.

MR. PHILLIP BURKE: The first thing I will deal with is there are presently 175 veterans in Camp Hill Veterans' Memorial Hospital. We did a check on the meals at the hospital and they are very good. Most of the veterans out there agree that they are being treated good with the meals.

Tom Gray, a Korean War veteran of the Calais Branch, Royal Canadian Legion, has donated $100 for the purchase of coffee mugs for our veterans at Camp Hill hospital. They said they didn't have mugs so we thought it would be a good gesture to get them each a mug.

I visit Camp Hill hospital every Friday with magazines for the veterans. What I have done is asked members of my Legion, Fairview Legion, for any magazines that they have finished with, would they bring them up to the branch and every Friday I bring a bunch in; I usually get 30 to 40 magazines. So what I do is drop them off every Friday to the different floors of Camp Hill so the veterans can have them. One of the magazines they are really interested in getting is National Geographic because of the pictures in it. They really are interested in that. So I go out there every Friday and drop those off.

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I visited several schools in the Halifax area around November 11th to explain to the children the importance of Remembrance Day and on that occasion - I think I brought it with me, oh yes, here it is here - I received this from one of the children in the Fairview area. It says, "Dear Mr. Burke: I just want to let you know even though I don't know you, I am very thankful that you fought for our freedom. Thank you once again, Britanny Brumley", in Fairview Heights, and there is the card she sent to me. I went to her home after I received this and had a talk with the young lady. She is in Grade 6, and she is about 11 or 12 years old, a nice young lady. It was so nice to get this, you know it really touches you because it is nice to see the young children remember us. I was very pleased to get this in the mail. This is what the government has put out, the cards, so they give them to the schools. It was very nice.

Our Korea War Veterans Unit 45 holds an annual tag day on July 26th. This is the time that the Korea War ended. All monies received go to the Walter Callow bus fund. Last year we collected - we only had seven people out - $1,100 and all this money was turned over to Camp Hill, the Walter Callow bus fund. We not only give them it, but the Legions and the poppy funds give money to the Walter Callow bus fund. The last I heard we had half the amount; I think we need $470,000 for a bus, and I think we have over $200,000 now.

I am still wondering why the federal government hasn't come through and said, Veterans Affairs, let's get this bus. We haven't gotten a bus here in Halifax since 1945. Those are the original buses I remember when I was a kid going to school, when the war was on. They are just held together by bloody wire. I am telling you, it is a pitiful sight. You would have to see them to appreciate, you would have to go on them. You know to look at them they look bad, but get inside of them (Interruption) Oh, terrible. There are holes in the floors and when we put the veterans on in their wheelchairs, some of the wheelchairs go into the holes. I mean it is pitiful. I would just like to see somebody from Ottawa, Veterans Affairs, come down here and have a look at these buses. They would be totally disgusted. This is why we are working so hard to try to get these buses for the veterans because they certainly deserve them.

Not only do they serve the veterans, because when they are not being used they can serve other people who are crippled in the community, like children who have to go to a fair or to a show or something, or just crippled people who would like to get out, disabled people. I think this is wonderful. The bus is not going to sit there idle, it is going to be used, and that is what we want it for. We want it not only for our veterans but we certainly want it for everybody in the community to use. It would be funny just to have it for special occasions, take the veterans out and then sit there five days in the parking lot not doing anything when you are talking almost $0.5 million for a bus.

I hope this update will help you to explain just what is taking place with our veterans. We are very concerned about our veterans in Camp Hill and we are losing quite a bit. Since the last time I was here with you, which I didn't think I would be, I had an operation for cancer in the year 2000 and they took out 20 inches of my bowel but I went back this January

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and they checked me over and they said, well, you look pretty good. There is no cancer and there are no polyps so we will see you in five years. If I could have gotten off that table to give him a big hug, I would have, but I couldn't get off the table.

However, we are concerned about how things are going with them but we have established one point. Camp Hill hospital, the veterans' hospital, will only be there for veterans. If you are a veteran, you will be entitled to a bed in that hospital. Now what has happened in the past, we have had other people in there. What was classified as a veteran? For instance, if you worked at Sears for 30 years you were classified as a veteran, not a veteran of the war but a veteran from Sears, and this is what happens. Some of these people were getting these beds in the Camp Hill hospital and we found out about it. We only had our minister for a little while, the man from Newfoundland, and he was the one who corrected this problem. These people were taken out of there and the beds were made available for veterans. This is what Camp Hill hospital is for. If you worked at Simpsons or you worked at Sears or you worked at the telephone company for 30 years and you are a veteran, that doesn't mean you are a veteran of the war, and that hospital is there for those facilities for veterans, not for a veteran of Sears or somebody else.

This is where the word veteran comes in. There has been quite a bit of argument about this. If you read the word veteran in the dictionary, it tells you, if you work for such a place for so many years, you are a veteran. You have heard it familiarly said, in different circumstances, he is a veteran driver or a veteran ball player. So what we have tried to establish with them is to say, okay, "war" veteran. Let's put that war in there and if we add that, then we can say, okay, he is a war veteran and he is entitled to go to Camp Hill hospital.

As I said, I go out there every Friday to deliver these magazines and I have a chance to talk to a lot of these chaps who are in the hospital there. Some of them are in pretty bad shape. Like one chap who was in Korea with me, he and I are the only two members in the Halifax area who received the unit presidential citation - that is that little one up there - for rescuing an American unit in Korea. Now he has had a lot of problems with breathing and stomach problems and he had a stroke, and now they found out he has cancer, to add to this. He has been in there now for three years and he is not coming out.

I also visited one of my good friends from the Second World War, Murdock McLean, who has Alzheimers. Murdock is as healthy looking as you and I. I will sit down with Murdock and I will talk to him and I will say, Murdock, do you know me? He will say, yes. I will say, who am I? He doesn't know me. I sit and talk to him for half an hour. Sometimes he cries and sometimes I walk out of there almost crying. It is just heartbreaking. He was a healthy man two years ago. He used to go to meetings at the Legion and everything, talk to everybody, a real nice man. Boom, just like that, hit overnight.

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So when you see these things at the hospital it is really sad but the main thing I think we should remember, since 1999, our last meeting here, is we have lost five of our members. Four died of cancer and one of a heart attack. You have often heard the theory, the golden years. They are not golden, they are brass, because every part of your body is getting older, getting worse and we are all dying off. I don't know if any of you gentlemen get the Legion magazine, but in the last Legion magazine, there were 37,000 veterans in Canada who died - 37,000.

We are losing a lot of veterans. They are getting to that age. I am one of the younger ones, I am a Korean War veteran, and I am 68; I will be 69 in August. Most World War II veterans are in their late 70's, 74, 75, unless they went in awfully young. We only have a few World War I veterans left. We have one in Camp Hill, he is 102 years old. God love him, you wouldn't believe it if you saw this guy, he is active. He is 102, you wouldn't believe it.

Each Legion, every week in this area of Halifax-Dartmouth and Hants County, the different counties, they have a Veterans Day. What they do is they bring these veterans out, have a dance, the ladies will push them around in the wheelchairs, have a nice meal for them, and we usually give them a box of chocolates or something. Every Legion in this whole area, the whole province does this for the veterans, and I think it is a wonderful thing. That is all I have, so if anybody would like to ask any questions, feel free.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for your presentation. We will start with Mr. Pye.

MR. JERRY PYE: Thank you, Mr. Burke. My question is, you implied that Camp Hill hospital is now specifically designed as a veterans' hospital and you mentioned war veterans, what about veterans in the Canadian Armed Forces?

MR. BURKE: Oh, yes.

MR. PYE: So they don't necessarily have to be a war veteran.

MR. BURKE: No. Mr. Pye, what we are trying to do is to say - for instance, they say anybody who served in the Gulf War, it was a six day war, big deal - if you are somewhere where somebody can kill you, as far as I am concerned, you are a veteran. You have been there, and I don't care, that is the way we look at it. Now, not all the floors in the veterans hospital have veterans on them, we have areas that don't. But there is coverage for them, oh yes, they won't be turned away.

MR. PYE: My other question is to you, Mr. Chairman. We had some discussion - and I do apologize for not being here at that particular meeting - around the Walter Callow buses and how funding for those buses ought to take place. I do know when the Speaker of the House was the chairman of this committee that he had sent some letters off to Chrysler

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Canada Corporation, and to the Government of Canada with respect to funding for Callow buses. I don't know what information has come back with respect to that, where we are, or if we have further pursued any avenues to get more money from both the Chrysler Corporation, the Government of Canada or even the provincial government with respect to assisting in purchasing a Walter Callow bus. I am surprised they cost approximately $400,000.

MR. BURKE: They are pretty expensive.

MR. PYE: As a matter of fact, as a young child - I want you to know - that I had actually taken trips on a Walter Callow bus while at the then-children's hospital on University Avenue. So we did absolutely take trips on them at that time, as persons with polio.

MR. JOHN HOLM: Just on that same point - because we did have a meeting not too long ago with Callow and there were letters and so on sent - maybe we could, through you, Mr. Chairman, get copies of all of the minutes, the correspondence and the replies and just make that available to Mr. Burke so that he could be familiar with what the committee has heard and done on that matter.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I thank you for that, that is a good idea. We can share our correspondence directly with you, Mr. Burke.

MR. BURKE: That would be great.

MR. HOLM: And the minutes as well.

MR. CHAIRMAN: And the minutes, too, of the meeting. It was a very interesting meeting with the members representing the Callow buses. Anything else, Mr. Holm?

MR. HOLM: No, that was a point I just wanted to make.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Parent.

MR. MARK PARENT: Just, really, out of interest, in terms of recognition of Korean War veterans in Canada, everything is fine at the level, recognizing veterans on the same level as . . .

MR. BURKE: We are finally getting recognized now, we hadn't been. They were calling it just the Korean veterans but they weren't calling us the Korean War veterans. They never classed it as a war until the last three or four years. We fought hard to get this done. A lot of people don't know some of the statistics on this. It would be quite shocking if the statistics came out - I think I have it here; here it is - we sent 26,791 Canadians to the Korean

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War. Of that total, 516 were killed. If you look at the ratio of the amount killed for the amount that we sent, it is more than the Second World War with the amount of people we had in the Second World War. So we lost a lot. Considering what we had over there, we lost a lot of men for a three year campaign. Like I said, the units here shown in this article, every unit that was there - we had quite a few units - what a lot of people don't realize is that so many Canadians were killed from what we sent. We only sent 26,791 and of that, 516 were killed, not counting the wounded.

MR. PARENT: So the Canadian Government finally has moved on that issue?

MR. BURKE: Yes.

MR. PARENT: In terms of the Gulf War, the same battle is being fought.

MR. BURKE: That is correct.

MR. PARENT: The government is obfuscating and denying that it was a war even though war was declared.

MR. BURKE: I hope they get better success than we had because we fought it for almost 40 years, 50 years, to get any recognition. It is a slow process. They are nice when you are leaving to go over to fight for your country. They are all ballyhoo and they are all there saying do a good job, but when you come back and you realize, like they are having a lot of these problems now with this Gulf War Syndrome and they are finding out now that these people are not bulling, it is happening and it is an actual fact. The Americans have proven this and I think it is only fair to say that it is time the Government of Canada came over and said, look, you fellows went and served in a war for us and we should be giving you recognition and trying to help you because I think any veteran who goes to fight for his country, or anybody who leaves to fight for their country, deserves some recognition when they come back. They should not be forgotten like we were. We had signs out, it used to be called the forgotten war.

Nobody knew anything about Korea. Korea, to them, was just a campaign that the United Nations was involved in; Lester Pearson got us involved in it and that is what they thought about it. We were only young. Most of us who went to Korea were very young. I was only going on 18. I was not 18 and, you know, you don't realize when you come back and say, oh, well, I did my little bit. Of course, I stayed in the service for 25 years so it made a difference there, but I would like to see, like you say, recognition from the government.

We have come a long way, the Korea War Veterans Association has, we have even got a street named after the veterans out there now. We got a street change done and, you know, going through the assembly, how hard that was. We fought that for a month down at

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City Hall, but finally we got it through and now it is called Veterans' Memorial Lane. That was a wonderful thing for the veterans because the hospital is right there.

Also if you notice, if you are out there, you are going to see a lot of changes this summer. We are building lovely grounds out there in the back of Camp Hill for the veterans to go out in their wheelchairs and do a little planting if they want, and there are going to be gardens out there and if you see the area, the nice monument that we put up. That was put up by the Legions and it is a beautiful monument. It tells about all the different organizations. The veterans appreciate this and if we can do something to make life a little better for our veterans, this is what we are looking for.

MR. PARENT: Anyway, I am sad that it took you 40 years and sad the same thing is happening with the Gulf War veterans, but thank you for your comments.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Wilson.

MR. DAVID WILSON: Mr. Burke, I guess I am just kind of generally interested, as well, in the distinction between Korean War veterans and why you felt that it took you so long. I know the Korean War was initially designated as a policing action . . .

MR. BURKE: That's correct.

MR. WILSON: . . . which is probably one of the silliest things I have ever heard.

MR. HOLM: That's like Vietnam.

MR. WILSON: Yes, a war is a war is a war. I am wondering, you know, what do you see that could be improved right now in terms of how your veterans are being treated?

[9:30 a.m.]

MR. BURKE: I think what we need and we have not had, we seem to get a really good Minister of Veterans Affairs, like the gentleman we had from St. John's, Newfoundland - he was doing wonders for us - he was only in there for three or four months and he was gone. So, you know, we don't seem to have a Veterans Affairs Minister who stays long enough and you know, like yourself, as a politician, if they put you into environmental emergencies and you are there for six months and you are just learning the job and all of a sudden you are transferred out and somebody else comes in, well, they don't know anything about it. They don't know our problems. I don't know what they do with the paperwork; I think it is probably discarded.

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We would like to see a good Veterans Affairs Minister who would come to all the different areas in Canada, every province, and visit them and have a meeting like this with us and say, look, what can we do to help you veterans and what do you need, but they have never done that. We don't see that. When the minister comes to Halifax, who does he meet with? He meets with the Premier of the province or he meets with the Lieutenant Governor, they have a dinner or something, and we never see him. We never see the Veterans Affairs Minister when he comes here.

MR. WILSON: So what about your co-operation with departmental staff and the bureaucrats in Veterans Affairs? How would you describe that?

MR. BURKE: I would describe that as one issue. I had an issue where a chap was looking for a pension. He is incapable of working or anything now and he is a Second World War veteran. He was looking for a pension and I went through Veterans Affairs in Halifax here. What I found is about 30 people working up there. I think the oldest one I saw was about 40. They are kids. They are very young kids working in these places. I would like to have seen older people, like even a veteran, working in there so when you go in with a problem, you can deal with somebody on the level that you are supposed to deal with. When I went up there, I was dealing with this kid who was 23 or 24, a nice young man, but he just wasn't into it and this is what is happening. If you go to Veterans Affairs up there, you will see they are mostly young people. There are very few old people up there that are serving.

Now, it wasn't that I got turned away or anything, but the documentation they wanted for this chap, it was impossible to get. To get our records, if you want to get a record of vets, everything is kept in the Archives in Ottawa and they go through those Archives. For instance, I will give you an example, when we were in Korea, we had a jeep overturn one day down there and two of the chaps got severely injured and they were sent back to Canada. I was there when this happened. I saw this accident.

When they went for pensions, this was never on their medical report because, you see, we didn't have doctors in the field, we had field attendants and if they didn't make out a report and put this on your documents, it wasn't documented. So when they looked through this affair of yours, they say, look, there is nothing. According to our records - which is correct - there is nothing here to show that this jeep overturned and you are crippled on account of it and what can you do, what can you fall back on? So this is what I was trying to fight with them on this guy's behalf and I think what is taking place is the government has to realize that if a problem happened in a war zone, or something like that, and somebody did get injured and there is no verification of it, then let's get hold of this other chap who was there and saw it, a first eyewitness and he can say, yes, I saw that, I was there and saw it.

This is what I said to this young fellow, well, we will have to try to find somebody and I did find a couple friends of mine to go forward, but I understand now he is going to get it so everything worked out all right, but this is the problem and you can understand that. If

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it is not documented and it is not on your records, you can't really blame the government because they are looking at the form and saying, well, it is blank form, there is nothing here; as far as we are concerned, you were never injured. This is what is happening.

MR. WILSON: So you are saying that, I don't know, in terms of the Veterans Affairs Department and how they do their hiring, or if you have to be a certain age or something like that, but perhaps it would be a good idea if they had some advisers who are veterans?

MR. BURKE: I think so, yes. They don't have to work there, just advisers to help. That would be great because, like you said, it would be nice to see that even if we only had one or two, or even one from each service, to say, look, if the veteran is having a problem, then you could have somebody who has gone through it and sit down with him and talk about this. But when you are dealing with somebody who is 21, 22, 25 years old, who wasn't even born when the war was on, it is going to be hard for him to grasp the problem that you are having.

MR. WILSON: Just one final question, what you are saying is that not necessarily - it is the red tape and the bureaucracies that sometimes tie things up, but in this country I would think that veterans - I know at the local veterans' unit in my riding, at the hospital there, the veterans' wing, the veterans are taken care of very well and most of them I have talked to have the highest praise for the care that is being given to them.

MR. BURKE: Yes, that is right. I think really today, in the last 10 years I think things have gone up about 60 per cent for veterans in hospitals. That is not only Veterans' Memorial Hospital here in Camp Hill, this is in hospitals throughout the province. We get a lot of intake from different members, I will be 50 years in the Legion this year and we get a lot of Legion members, like presidents of different branches from Shelburne and from Yarmouth, who come up to our branches and we discuss these things, because I am interested in seeing how things are going down there with the veterans.

We discuss this and they tell me how things are going, and usually the reports I have gotten have been good reports. They seem to be quite pleased and we have come a long way, and I think a lot of that is due to the Legion too. The Legion has been a big input for the veterans because there are a lot of veterans in the Legion.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.

MR. CHATAWAY: Good morning, sir. That is certainly good information you gave us. One thing you mentioned, the Walter Callow buses obviously transport veterans, but also work with other people who are crippled and things like that. Could you give us more details? Are they put on a regular schedule, or are they just sort of helping out where they are needed?

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MR. BURKE: Not with these buses now, no, because these buses are not safe. For instance, the children, what you are finding now is that there are different companies in the city that are doing this. There is a chap next door to me, his little boy is crippled, and they come every morning to take him in a special bus. These buses that he goes in are really nice buses, but these veteran buses, no, they are not doing that work now because they are not safe enough.

If you were to look at them sometime, we park them up in Windsor Park, if you ever get a chance sometime you should go and have a look at them. Just look at the exterior. You don't even have to look at the interior, just look at the exterior, it would make you cry.

MR. CHATAWAY: Certainly at some time, I suppose, they are not allowed to be used anymore if they go too downhill?

MR. BURKE: Well, as long as they pass the thing - what they do, you know yourself when you have a car, as long as the brakes are good and the horn and the lights work, it is fine. It doesn't matter what the car looks like, it can be a piece of crap and this is what is happening there.

We are optimistic that something will be done in the future with these buses; something has to be done. We asked before at the last meeting I had here, you remember in 1999, and I mentioned to you about seeing if we could get the provincial government to get involved in this. We are talking big years of surpluses in this country - big years, big surpluses in this country - not only federally, but provincially.

MR. CHATAWAY: Not in this province.

MR. BURKE: I also mentioned the fact that what would it hurt one of these big automobile companies here, like Ford or Lincoln or one of these, or all of them to get together and chip in and get this bus for these veterans, and on the side of the bus they could put their names; it could say this bus was donated by so-and-so.

MR. CHATAWAY: Certainly disabled people inevitably have transportation problems, and the people who are not veterans at all do have those problems, and I just wonder how often the Walter Callow people talk to disabled people. I know we have three pilot projects in various, where they are talking getting disabled people around, so it would be good if they talk together.

MR. BURKE: I think so. I would like to see that because, like I said, I wouldn't want to see all this money spent on a bus and have it sit idle.

MR. CHATAWAY: And then somebody else go out and buy another bus . . .

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MR. BURKE: That is correct. I would like to see, if an organization required disabled people to go somewhere, and that bus was sitting up there, why they couldn't get hold of the bus and get the driver and do it. We are not exclusively saying that this bus should be sitting up there five days doing nothing. I would like to see that.

MR. CHATAWAY: I think the other thing is, too, a good point, if it is used for some other people, the people responsible for the people using it should be contributing too. Not only contributing personnel to help out, but also fundraising and things like that, or an access to money and things like that. It would certainly be good talking to . . .

MR. BURKE: I found dealing with people who are having that problem - mentally handicapped - I find them to be very obliging, very nice people. I met very few of them who are nasty, and I have worked with a lot of them helping the veterans on the buses and we have a lot of veterans' wives who come with their husbands too. So they drive on the buses with them, we bring them in so these are things that I would like to see. I would like to see more emphasis put on getting some buses. I mentioned this, remember in 1999, Mr. Pye, did anything ever happen in the Legislature? Did they ever agree to anything?

MR. PYE: Mr. Chairman has stated that he will provide you with the information.

MR. CHATAWAY: Well, the last comment is, you spent 50 years in the Legion?

MR. BURKE: It was 50 years on January 17th.

MR. CHATAWAY: Well, congratulations. Excellent.

MR. BURKE: I am supposed to get a medal this summer. They are supposed to give me my 50 year medal.

MR. CHATAWAY: Well, you certainly deserve it.

MR. PARENT: You aren't going to have any room.

MR. BURKE: This is my Korean one. I have a Legion one, too. We all have Legion ones. I have been a life member now for 10 years.

MR. CHATAWAY: Well, you certainly deserve it. It is very good that you came in and talked to us this morning. It was very beneficial.

MR. BURKE: Thank you very much.

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MS. MARY ANN MCGRATH: Thank you, Mr. Burke. My father was not a veteran, he was too young. But my father-in-law is a veteran of the Second World War which is why I am interested in the work of this committee. I just follow some of the other comments and everybody has pretty much covered off any question that I had. I will make you a promise, I will find you some National Geographics.

MR. BURKE: Good, thank you very much.

MS. MCGRATH: Drop them off at the Fairview Legion?

MR. BURKE: That's correct. Just tell the bartender, for Phil Burke, and he will give them to me and I will look after them. By the way, I forgot to mention too, as you probably heard the great news that the Merchant Marines were finally given their money after all those years. Now, there is another issue that was really sad but, however, it is getting resolved. As you know there aren't many of them left. However, I feel so glad that they finally got something, really, because they deserved it after all these years, so it is good to see that too. There is some good that happens in the world you know. Spread it with the veterans. There is some good! I would appreciate that; if you drop them off, I will look after them for you.

MR. CECIL O'DONNELL: First I want to thank Mr. Burke for coming in today and for his presentation. You, being a veteran of the Korean War, can you tell me how many war veterans are left in Nova Scotia from the Korean War or approximately?

MR. BURKE: Well, we have 72 members in our branch, which is Unit 45 in Halifax. We also have another branch that is in the Sackville area. I would say offhand there are probably about 400 to 500 in Nova Scotia and something I must say while I am here, we had our Korean Convention down in Yarmouth two years ago and I want to tell you, those have got to be the greatest people in the world. They treated us so good at that Legion down there you would not believe. We had the Americans come over, of course; they come over every year when we have our conventions. They treated us wonderful down there, nice people.

Now, last year we were supposed to have it in Bangor. We were very - the word I hate to use - but we were right pissed off at them. They would not allow us to get our hotels and stuff at the Canadian par rate. They made no arrangements to go to the hotels and say, look, the Canadians are coming over here for this Korean Convention, it is only a week, can we give them rates at par? Now, every other time we went over there, they gave us at par; when we went to Bangor, the hotels and our meals and everything we used Canadian money at par. And this wouldn't hurt them but last year they wouldn't do it, so we didn't go. We didn't send any representatives from this area to their convention and I hope they learned something from it. We thought it was very unfair. They come over to this country and you have to pay 50 cents on the dollar. They love to come here; when we want to go over there, as veterans, you think they would have said, well, we will waive this.

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Now, I had talked to some of the hotel managers and stuff over there in Bangor and they said they would have done it if they had been notified. But this committee that was looking after the Korean vets for the Americans didn't bother at all, so we didn't bother going. It is a sad thing, but this year it is in Canada - Nova Scotia again - so that is the way it works.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I have a few questions I would like to ask at this time. We know that it was a United Nations effort during the Korean War and there were a lot of countries involved. Do you have the breakdown of the American casualties?

MR. BURKE: Yes, I do. Not all the Americas, but I do think I have . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Americans were the ones that were spearheading the Korean Conflict.

MR. BURKE: I have the picture of the Korean War Memorial. Yes, here it is. This will give you some example of who died: 54,246 died, and of those - and this was in the war - 233 were from Maine. There were 103,284 wounded; 1,877 were missing in action; 7,000 were prisoners of war; 3,450 returned alive; 51 died in prison camps; and 389 POWs were unaccounted for. This is on the memorial they have in Bangor, Maine.

In Washington, D.C., it says on the war memorial, and I will pass this around, "OUR NATION HONORS HER SONS AND DAUGHTERS WHO ANSWERED THE CALL TO DEFEND A COUNTRY THEY NEVER KNEW AND A PEOPLE THEY NEVER MET." These are some of the pictures and I will pass these around.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The other thing, Veteran Affairs in Charlottetown, the deputy minister, have you gone through him and invited him over to Camp Hill or made a request for . . .

MR. BURKE: No, we have never done that. This is the first year for me as 1st vice-president of the Korean vets organization and this is something I am going to look into this year. I will see if we can invite him over and have a meeting with him and go to Camp Hill with him as you suggested. I think this would be great and I will look into this because I was service officer last year with the Korean vets, and what I did as service officer was just to go to Camp Hill and check on the veterans to see how everything is. But this year I am 1st vice-president, so it gives me a little more chance to get into that area. That is a wonderful idea and I will make a note of that because it would be a good idea to get him to come over and go through the hospital with us.

MR. CHAIRMAN: At that time, I am sure that he would be receptive to your request, being just from Charlottetown. Also, at that time maybe if you show him the buses.

[Page 14]

MR. BURKE: Yes, I would love to show him that, would I ever.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The other thing is, Camp Hill - and this is what I don't understand, the narrow-mindedness of the government - Camp Hill services all Nova Scotians, not just Halifax.

MR. BURKE: That is correct, yes, the whole province.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That is a problem because when people come in from Sydney or Yarmouth or points in between, they come to Camp Hill to be treated and people who are well enough can go out in these buses. It encompasses all Nova Scotia and when I hear that it just serves Halifax and area, that is completely incorrect.

MR. BURKE: It is, yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That is one of the things that we must make them understand.

MR. BURKE: Our Callow buses, for instance sometimes we will drive up to Kentville, Truro, wherever the Legions are around the areas, so we do travel. But, as I said, it would be a wonderful thing if the Veterans Affairs Minister came over and saw those buses and maybe he could go back then and say we have a big surplus, why not use it? Why not do something good?

If you look at some of the buses in some of these other communities - I see them on TV sometimes and in the magazines in Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia - they have beautiful buses out there for the veterans; beautiful, it is nice.

The organizations that bought these buses have not been the federal government or the provincial government; most of this money has come from the Legions, from poppy funds from the Legions. So the federal government has not said let's put $1 million into buying buses for the veterans throughout Canada. That wouldn't kill them, we are wasting so much money on other trivial things, why not do that?

I remember at the last meeting we had asked if we went to the list to see what they would do, so I am waiting to see that report. I want to have a look at that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. My last question to you is, and I know that a lot of people around the table don't know what your medals stand for and what I would ask you to do is explain your medals that you are wearing today.

MR. BURKE: Okay, this was the one that was given to us from the President of South Korea. What they are trying to do is get this made for us, Ottawa to accept it as a war medal, which will put it on this side; however right now we have to wear it on the right side.

[Page 15]

This is the Korean Veterans' Organization, and this is the 50th Anniversary of the war in Korea that was given to us. This one is the Korean medal, this is the United Nations medal and this is the Korean medal that, after 40 years, the Government of Canada decided they would give us for Korea.

You see these were United Nations medals, these were never given to us by the Canadian Government - this one is - then they got a little embarrassed, and they said what about the people who served in Europe, which I did. We were the first occupational forces in Europe. I went there when I came back from Korea in 1953. I was at Belsen, the concentration camp where over 1 million Jews were killed. I was there when the ovens were still there in 1953. This is what they gave us, and this is the Long Service Medal which they gave us - I spent 25 years, but you get bars on them, but I didn't put the bars on them yet - for 22 years. That is the list of the medals to give you some kind of a breakdown of what they mean.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I thank you for that and I am sure that was enlightening for the members. Also, I had a chance to tour Korea a few years ago. I was very taken with the country and with the people, and I can tell the people here at the committee that when my son and I had a backpack with the Canadian flag, we were treated royally over there. I know that Americans over there, some of them will put Canadian flags on their backpacks.

MR. BURKE: That is correct.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Because, I guess, of the occupation. There were 50,000 Americans all the time stationed there above Seoul now, and so having said that do you have anything else to add?

MR. BURKE: Only the fact that what you said is correct. We have a lot of Korean people who live in the Halifax-Dartmouth area, Nova Scotia in general. They are a very warm people. This was taken with the Lieutenant Governor, I should show you this picture; this was at our church service, which we hold every year in Halifax. They are very warm people and they think so highly of Canadians, because they love Canadians for what Canadians did to help their country and to liberate it. I will tell you that anytime you talk to somebody from South Korea and you tell them you are Canadian, their face lights right up they are so happy.

It is different with the Americans. I know because I saw this, but the Canadians are well-loved. Canadians are well-liked the world over. If you go to Europe you will find the same thing. When I was in Germany in 1953, the German people even liked us better than the Americans. They like the Canadians. And Holland, if you go to Holland and tell them you are a Canadian, they go overboard for you.

[Page 16]

We have a good reputation in this world. Canadians are good people, and we are proud of that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: In closing, I have to admit that when I was in Holland, the same thing happened. They loved Canadians over there and rightfully so, because we liberated Holland.

At this time I would like to thank you, Mr. Burke, for coming. It was very interesting and I wish you well in your endeavours. We will supply all the literature and everything that we have on the Walter Callow buses and give it to you. Maybe that will help you out in your quest for better service with the buses.

MR. BURKE: I want to thank you for mentioning the part about getting hold of the minister from Charlottetown. I think that is a wonderful idea and I will get right on that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thanks again. We will take a five minute break and continue and do a wrap-up which will only take another five minutes. You will be out in plenty of time.

MR. BURKE: Thank you very much gentlemen, and ladies.

[9:55 a.m. The committee recessed.]

[10:00 a.m. The committee reconvened.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Maple Grove & Yarmouth High Memorial Clubs sent a letter to Ms. McGrath. We have answered the letter, and you all have a copy of it. They are on their way to Ottawa to promote Remembrance Day in Nova Scotia, to be a full holiday, recognized by everybody. They are sending quite a contingent up to Ottawa. They would like to take part in the Battle of the Atlantic and VE Day ceremonies in Ottawa. The gist of the letter is that, of course, we can't authorize them to do it, so we have given them direction on who to contact through the Legion. It is pretty self-explanatory. You have that. Any questions on that?

MR. HOLM: That letter is dated April 12th, so it hasn't gone yet.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It is going right now.

MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): It is going today. I just have it out so you can all see it. If you don't like some of the changes (Interruptions) If you like it, he signs it and I send off. If you don't . . .

[Page 17]

MR. WILSON: You said they are promoting Remembrance Day and making it a holiday in Nova Scotia?

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, Canada. A national holiday for everybody. These groups, they believe that people don't recognize Remembrance Day. The stores are open, except for government, and so on. They want to make it a full national holiday, for remembrance across Canada. Do you have a package or anything about them? These are school children.

MR. WILSON: I have the letter. I am just wondering, are we supporting this? Have we passed a resolution here?

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, we haven't passed a resolution. We are just sending a letter of support for their endeavours.

MR. WILSON: Okay, we are just wishing them luck.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We are wishing them Godspeed and good luck.

MR. WILSON: And supporting them to make Remembrance Day a national holiday, which I take it, it is not now. What is it then?

MR. HOLM: That is in Nova Scotia. We have it here, and I think the Maritime Provinces all do, but I don't think . . .

MS. MCGRATH: But it isn't exactly a holiday anymore, businesses are open, people are required to go to work.

MR. WILSON: That doesn't not make it a holiday, it is a holiday. Remembrance Day is a holiday.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It is a holiday . . .

MR. WILSON: Whether or not people treat it as a holiday is a different thing. Remembrance Day is a holiday.

MS. MCGRATH: Statutory.

MR. CHAIRMAN: What they want is for it to be treated as a holiday.

MR. WILSON: Remembrance Day, to my knowledge anyway, is a statutory holiday in the Province of Nova Scotia.

MR. HOLM: In Nova Scotia, I think it is.

[Page 18]

MR. CHAIRMAN: That is correct. All government offices are closed.

MR. HOLM: Banks are closed.

MR. WILSON: That also applies to other parts of the Maritime Provinces, I do believe, or the Atlantic Provinces, does it not?

MR. CHAIRMAN: My understanding of Remembrance Day is that it is a government holiday and it is a statutory holiday. The only people who recognize it, pretty well, is the government.

MR. PYE: Can I ask you a question? If it is a statutory holiday, and provincial governments can designate statutory holidays, because you are endorsing what is going through in this letter, with the children, to persuade the Prime Minister of the country to incorporate this as a statutory holiday across the country, and with all the consequences that come with that, restrictions, if that is the case, have you done any research with respect to how many provinces across Canada recognize it as a statutory holiday? What are the positions of those provinces that do recognize it as a statutory holiday? Where is the leverage here, with respect to that? Has that research been done, before we say that we wish and we support - actually it says we support you in persuading the Prime Minister to change it to a statutory holiday?

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, I haven't researched the provinces at this time. Is there a problem with this? If there is, I can change the letter and just put it in as myself as MLA instead of as Chairman of Veterans Affairs Committee.

MR. PYE: I don't particularly see it as a problem, but it might have been wise to send some - what I am saying is, if we as a committee of government give our support to an agency and/or organization, we should have some documented information to back it up and to know if in fact our government is in support of this. We as a committee might be, but have we talked to the government of the province with respect to this?

MR. HOLM: Only one question, we certainly should know the status in Nova Scotia. I am not worried about the rest of the country, but in Nova Scotia we should.

MR. CHAIRMAN: In Nova Scotia, it is a statutory holiday for the government.

MR. HOLM: I am not sure if it is only for government. Is it only government? (Interruptions)

MR. O'DONNELL: I am pretty sure it is government. I know as an employee, if a person works, you don't have to pay him extra time or anything.

[Page 19]

MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe, if I might, what we have and what the concern is, is the watering down - if I may use those words - of Remembrance Day and of the reason why we have Remembrance Day. That is why we have all been working together, bringing in the schools and so on, to make people aware of why we have Remembrance Day and why we support the veterans.

MR. HOLM: This would mean then that this committee is supporting the Government of Nova Scotia making changes too, so I have no problem with that.

MR. WILSON: I have a slight problem with the way it is worded. I think this letter was intended to solicit financial support, was it not?

MR. CHAIRMAN: That is right. That was part of it, yes.

MR. WILSON: It ends up with a lot more. We don't do that sort of thing, in terms of providing people with funds to travel anywhere or for any other purpose.

MS. MCGRATH: Nor are we indicating that we are going to.

MR. WILSON: But we are indicating our strong support as a legislative committee for this group to make Remembrance Day a national holiday throughout Canada.

MR. PARENT: Has this come before the committee?

MR. WILSON: This was a letter, this has never come before the committee to my knowledge. (Interruptions) This was a letter to the MLA for Halifax Bedford Basin, which was copied to the MLA for Yarmouth, which was copied to Sue Riordon, who is Chairperson for the Persian Gulf Veterans Association. Yes, I am assuming that the MLA copied it to this committee. This is the first time I have ever heard of it or seen it, and I have some problems with the way it is worded. The Chairman has just suggested that perhaps you are sending it on your own. If that is the case, that is up to you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That is not the case, Mr. Wilson. What I said is, if there is a problem with the committee, I will send this on my own.

MR. WILSON: Yes, that is what I have said.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I am asking. We have a letter in front of us from myself to Mr. Joe Bishara, Maple Grove & Yarmouth High Memorial Clubs. You all have the letter.

[Page 20]

MR. HOLM: Maybe the letter should indicate in it that this committee doesn't have, for example, the funding, it doesn't have funds available to provide the kind of financial (Interruptions) No, we don't have a budget, so that should be addressed in the letter, but we wish you well in your efforts. We don't need to go much further than that.

MR. PARENT: Mr. Chairman, I think that possibly if you just took out that paragraph, we support you in your quest, that . . .

MS. MCGRATH: Why don't we support them?

MR. PARENT: If we do, then we have to make a decision on it as a committee, but otherwise there was nothing in the letter that . . .

MR. O'DONNELL: Moral support.

MS. MCGRATH: I like the letter as is. I agree with the member for Sackville-Cobequid that it would be wise to indicate that we don't have a budget that would allow us to support them monetarily, but I have absolutely no problem in supporting them morally. I think as a group of young people, we traditionally hear from veterans about the need to support veterans. It is completely uncommon to have kids come forward. We are the ones who are always being asked by veterans to raise the level of awareness of the contribution of these people with our young people. Here is a group of young people who want to raise this awareness and what the hell are we doing here if we don't support them. That is the whole purpose of this, to raise the awareness of the contribution of veterans to this province and this country, and I find it offensive that anybody would not support this kind of an endeavour.

MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, I am sorry the MLA finds it offensive but that is the purpose of committee work.

MS. MCGRATH: Committee work?

MR. WILSON: If I don't like the contents of a letter, I think I have the right to sit here . . .

MS. MCGRATH: Fine, but the purpose . . .

MR. WILSON: I find your attitude offensive right now (Interruption) Mr. Chairman, I have the floor since you have recognized me. The fact of the matter is, if we are doing our job as a legislative committee here, this group wrote us wanting to know where they could obtain funding. There have been other groups before us that we have forwarded their requests to other provincial government departments to see if that funding was available. Has that been done in this case?

[Page 21]

MR. CHAIRMAN: In this letter, we have addressed the funding issue, the Royal Canadian Legion may be of assistance to you in your request for funding.

MR. WILSON: Are there any government departments that are perhaps able to assist these students in their travel? Perhaps the Department of Education . . .

MR. HOLM: No, they don't . . .

MR. WILSON: In other situations that have appeared before this committee, and Walter Callow buses is one example, we forwarded letters off to ministers and departments asking them to help out with funding. Is this not the same sort of thing?

MR. CHAIRMAN: We could discuss this, and this could . . .

MR. WILSON: If I may, Mr. Chairman, if I may?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, Mr. Wilson.

MR. WILSON: I think I still have the floor.

MR. CHAIRMAN: This committee . . .

MR. WILSON: Perhaps I don't.

MR. CHAIRMAN: . . . could discuss this all day, on this one letter. So, what I am asking for is a motion to accept or not accept this letter. Mr. Holm, before we make a motion.

MR. HOLM: Yes, because this isn't going to be the motion. First of all, I don't think that anybody, including Mr. Wilson, is saying that he doesn't support having increased awareness of the important contribution the veterans have made. It is a matter of the technical structuring and so on of what we are saying in the letter. That is point number one; point number two, raise the point that the committee doesn't know the position of government on Remembrance Day here in Nova Scotia; and point number three, this committee doesn't have any ability to provide the financial assistance that the group is asking for, we don't state that. Saying that you could contact the Legions doesn't answer that question directly. Dave also makes a good point when he says we have, on other occasions, referred the matter to other government departments to see if they could be of assistance.

So I would suggest that maybe the letter could be reworked a little bit, including in that letter certain things. You could point out that, unfortunately, this committee does not have a budget that would enable us to assist in your financial requests; we have forwarded your letter to, maybe the Department of Education, you could say to several government

[Page 22]

departments to see if in their budgets they are able to be of assistance. You may also then say the Legions might be able to assist.

So that is covering the financial thing which I think is probably the main part of what they are looking for, financial assistance. They are not looking for our blessing to be able to go and to make this presentation. We could in the last part say that we certainly support your efforts to heighten the awareness amongst Canadians of Remembrance Day and the important part that the veterans have played, however you want to word it.

MR. PYE: You could go so far as to make it a national holiday.

MR. HOLM: And even so far as to make it a national holiday, no problem with that.

MR. PYE: Absolutely.

MR. HOLM: But I don't think that we need to get, as committee members, our knickers in a knot and have battles going on over something where we are basically all saying, I think in agreement, but we are only discussing the actual technical words that are put down on paper. I am sure that it can be redrafted and circulated to committee members. We can look at it. We can check, sign off that we agree or disagree, and it can go back and, Mr. Chairman, you could send the letter out then as amended without having this committee having to come back and meet again for that issue.

MR. CHAIRMAN: First of all, I don't think we could send it out with the amendments on it without having the committee meet again because . . .

MR. HOLM: You didn't hear the last part of . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: . . . it would have to be approved by the committee.

MR. HOLM: Yes, but you didn't hear what I just said, the last part.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, go again.

MR. HOLM: The last part was, I said that the draft letter could then be circulated amongst committee members. We could check off if we agree with it. If we agree with the contents at that time, then there isn't a need to have the meeting come back. We do that all the time. We could have a motion if need be that the chairman will send the letter once the committee members have had a chance to review the revised draft if they are in agreement.

MR. CHATAWAY: John, you were saying other . . .

MR. HOLM: Other departments.

[Page 23]

MR. CHATAWAY: . . . amendments sort of thing, basically we tell them that we had no money. Basically that the Legions . . .

MR. HOLM: May or may not . . .

MR. CHATAWAY: . . . may or may not, other government departments, which . . .

MR. HOLM: . . . and we have sent it to government departments.

MR. CHATAWAY: Which other government departments?

MR. HOLM: Well, really there would be Education, I doubt that Sport and Recreation would have any money for travel, you know, I mean if we are just trying to pretend that we are forwarding it on for the interest because, in reality, you can be darn sure that there won't be any money.

MR. CHATAWAY: This is, I think, quite rightly a trip to Ottawa for all these kids who are looking forward to going to Ottawa. To give them a job up there is a good idea too but, basically, every student in Nova Scotia would like a trip like that so you can't pick out these people, and I agree with that letter just saying thank you very much for the attitude.

I think the thing that we haven't brought up, you know, as Phillip Burke was a good presenter and things like that, you know, but the other interesting thing is that Canada is one of the world's leaders in peacekeepers who go all over the world and I think it is very important that we have to instill, especially in our youth, more support for that activity of going along in this whole line of supporting veterans, but also peacekeepers is a good idea too. So I think the whole idea is good. I think we all generally agree around this table that Nova Scotia should make sure we have a statutory holiday. If we don't have one, we should get one, but I would like the report on that sometime. It is just basically a lawyer saying, you know, here is how you view it and things like that. I certainly support your amendment, John, except for other government departments.

MS. MCGRATH: Mr. Chairman, I am sorry if I appeared to take offence at anyone's particular comments, but what I was offended at, was what I perceived to be the direction the discussion was going. If I misinterpreted that direction then I am sorry. Correct me if I am wrong, Mr. Holm, did you indicate in your comments that you thought they were looking for financial not moral support?

MR. HOLM: No, not that they weren't looking for both but that the primary concern, of course, would be financial.

[Page 24]

MS. MCGRATH: Because they state in their final paragraph that they wish to have the financial and moral support. I agree that we need to clarify the reasons that we cannot provide financial support, but I do hope that our letter indicates that we can support them morally.

MR. HOLM: If my comments were not clear on that point, then thank you for correcting it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: First of all, is it the wish of the committee that we send this letter out as is? Could I have a show of hands?

MR. O'DONNELL: Can I just say something, Mr. Chairman? As long as the substance of the letter isn't changed, I can go along with the changes that Mr. Holm has mentioned. I don't have any problems with that.

MR. WILSON: Let me clarify a couple of things first of all. For the record, I am in support of this group and I am in support of what they are saying, but all I am saying is that it should be clarified. This is a little confusing. In other provinces in this country, this is already happening and they have stated that in their letter themselves, or not in the letter but in the kit that I have here it is mentioned in an article that they know that this already exists in parts of this country.

What they are trying to do is to persuade the Prime Minister, and I hope they get an appointment with him personally and I hope they win their argument that they can do this. What they are trying to say is that they are trying to make other parts of the country follow suit here. I don't know if it is provincial or federal in regulatory nature, I have no idea. I think that if we can make the proposed amendments to the letter that Mr. Holm is proposing, then I would vote yes in that case.

MR. PARENT: If this is being used as a draft for the new letter, however, after your example should be a new sentence; after VE Day ceremony should be a new sentence; and Canada is misspelled.

MR. CHAIRMAN: What we will have to do here today, however long it takes, is sit down and we will do a letter today that is acceptable to all the members here. So we will get the amendments correct before we leave and my question was - and I didn't get the answers yet - will we accept this letter the way it is written to go to Joe Bishara or do we . . .

MR. CHATAWAY: I thought John Holm mentioned some things, three amendments . . .

[Page 25]

MR. CHAIRMAN: But what I am asking, some of the members seem split, I just want to get a consensus. Do we send this letter the way it is written now? (Interruptions) I will ask for a motion.

MR. O'DONNELL: I move that the letter not be sent as presented here this morning.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

[The motion is carried.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The letter will not be sent the way it is written now. We will need amendments.

MR. CHATAWAY: I move that we send this letter with the amendments mentioned by Mr. Holm concerning three small paragraphs: one, we point out to Mr. Bishara that this committee has no money available for this trip; two, that they might approach Royal Canadian Legions for support; and three, when the draft letter is written up it is sent to all members to okay the copy.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are those all the amendments? Any other amendments?

MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that I still can't understand why we are not forwarding this letter for funding consideration to various government departments. We have done it in the past with other letters.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would you like to make an amendment to that effect?

MR. WILSON: I will make that amendment that we would forward this letter to the appropriate government departments, the same as you are saying that perhaps they should approach the Royal Canadian Legion and we should be suggesting that they approach or we will forward, on their behalf, to the appropriate government departments for funding.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If I may, Mr. Wilson, these people are leaving on May 5th and May 8th. Now, there is not going to be enough time. However, if that is your wish, we will put it in an amendment and we can do that.

MR. WILSON: Perhaps it could be retroactive funding, Mr. Chairman, if it is available?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Obviously, you know the length of time people tend to get back to us . . .

[Page 26]

MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, it is not my fault that this letter is just appearing before me today.

MR. HOLM: Can I, Mr. Chairman, ask this question of the committee before we have any votes? Is there anybody on this committee who would be opposed to the letter being forwarded to government departments to see if there is funding available? Is there anybody opposed to that? So nobody is opposed to that idea.

All right, then I guess the second question is, if we are not opposed to it, why are we wasting our time fighting over something that we are not opposed to? We can do it. We may be of the opinion and we may all be right that there is going to be zero success in getting any money from any one of those departments and there may not be time, but we are just spending time arguing about something that we all agree on. So why don't we just simply state, we will forward to appropriate government departments. We could even say, while we are not optimistic given the lateness of the request, we will forward it to see if there is a possibility that some funding might be available. Including that in, that would cover off David's concern, it would be consistent with what was done on the Callows. We are all in agreement with it, so let's do it.

MR. WILSON: I have no problem with that.

MR. PYE: It doesn't delay the letter in any process because the letter is forwarded to them, so there is no delay.

MR. HOLM: So is that part of your motion?

MR. CHATAWAY: Yes . . .

MR. HOLM: I continue to second your motion.

MR. CHATAWAY: . . . paraphrase it this much longer but, basically, that's the idea of it, and then we get it out. The final, we all should have the right to okay that this letter has not been drafted, it will be drafted very shortly and we will have it approved. We will all get a copy of it and approve it.

MR. HOLM: I call for the question.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Do you have some other business, Mr. Pye?

[Page 27]

MR. PYE: Under FYI, the responses to letters written on behalf of the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association, we have had them submitted. What do we do with them once they are submitted? Just keep them for our own information, or do we respond to those letters?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. David Wilson, as Vice-Chairman responded to the letters. Do you have those in your package? You should have.

MR. PYE: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I tried to get everything out to you.

MR. HOLM: Are we ready to have an adjournment motion?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, we are ready for an adjournment.

MR. HOLM: Mr. Chairman, I so move.

MR. PARENT: When are we meeting again? Are we meeting again? (Interruptions)

MRS. HENRY: It is up to the committee.

MR. PARENT: I suggest, Mr. Chairman, if there is no pressing business that we don't meet again until the fall.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

[The motion is carried.]

MR. HOLM: The motion to adjourn . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion to adjourn still stands.

[The committee adjourned at 10:30 a.m.]