HANSARD
Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services
STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES
Mr. David Wilson, Glace Bay (Chairman)
Hon. David Morse
Hon. Christopher d'Entremont
Mr. Chuck Porter
Mr. Charles Parker
Ms. Joan Massey
Mr. Percy Paris
Mr. Michel Samson
Ms. Diana Whalen
[Hon. Christopher d'Entremont was replaced by Mr. James Muir.]
In Attendance:
Ms. Jana Hodgson
Legislative Committee Clerk
Mr. Neil Ferguson
Legislative Counsel
WITNESSES
Retail Gasoline Dealers Association of Nova Scotia
Mr. Graham Conrad, Executive Director
Mr. Wayne Pace, Director/Gas Station Owner
Department of Labour and Workforce Development
Occupational Health and Safety Division
Mr. Jim LeBlanc, Director
Mr. Stewart Sampson, Provincial Manager, Professional Services
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HALIFAX, TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 24, 2009
STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES
9:00 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. David Wilson (Glace Bay)
MR. MICHEL SAMSON (Chairman): Good morning and welcome to the Standing Committee on Human Resources. My name is Michel Samson, I'm the MLA for Richmond and usually I'm just a committee member, but this morning I've been asked to step in as chairman of this committee. Due to the inclement weather yesterday, some of our members were not able to make it for this morning's meeting.
We have a number of items on our agenda today, including a presentation both from the Retail Gasoline Dealers Association of Nova Scotia and the Department of Labour and Workforce Development, Occupational Health and Safety Division. Prior to getting to those presentations, we do have some appointments to deal with first, and if I could suggest that we start by dealing with those appointments and get through them, then we can have our presentations afterwards.
In regard to appointments, we have under the Department of Agriculture (Interruption) Yes, okay, I'm reminded that the members usually introduce themselves, so let's have the members introduce themselves.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: With me, as well, is Neil Ferguson from the Legislative Counsel office and we also have a number of administrative staff that are here with us as well.
So if I can return to the appointments. Under the Department of Agriculture, do I have someone to move those names? Minister Morse.
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HON. DAVID MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I'd be pleased to move Sarah Campbell and Frazer Hunter as members, Robert MacKay as a member/chair, Daniel O'Brien as a member, and Arnold Rovers as a member/alternate chair of the Nova Scotia Agricultural College Transitional Board.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Under the Department of Education, the Agricultural College Foundation of Nova Scotia. Mr. Morse.
MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I'd be pleased to move Stephen Healy, Janice Lutz and Carol Versteeg as members of the Nova Scotia Agricultural College Foundation.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Minister Morse.
MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I'd be pleased to move Kenneth D. Crawford and Leo P. MacIntosh as members of the Board of Governors of Cape Breton University.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Mr. Morse.
MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I'd be pleased to move Michelle Awad, Jamie Baillie and Stan Spavold as members of the Board of Governors of Dalhousie College and University.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion on the motion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
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Mr. Morse.
MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I'd be pleased to move Floyd Dykeman, Charlotte Sutherland, Bruce Towler and Karen Woolhouse as members of the Dalhousie University Foundation.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion on the motion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
For the Department of Finance, Minister Morse.
MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I'd be pleased to move G. Russell Hatton as a member of the Halifax-Dartmouth Bridge Commission.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
The Department of Justice, Minister Morse.
MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I'd be pleased to move Estelle Theriault, Q.C., as a member of the Board of Governors of the Law Foundation of Nova Scotia.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion on the motion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Minister Morse.
MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I'd be pleased to move Ronald A. MacDonald as a member of the Law Reform Commission of Nova Scotia.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion on the motion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Under Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, Minister Morse.
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MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I'd be pleased to move Mark Stevens as a member of the Board of Registration of Embalmers and Funeral Directors.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion on the motion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
For the Treasury and Policy Board, Minister Morse.
MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I'd be pleased to move W. Carl Doty, Suzanne Elizabeth Drapeau, Dr. Donna Hurlburt, Greg Keefe, Rick MacDonald, Candace Stevenson and Louis Tousignant as directors of the Nova Scotia Voluntary Planning Board. (Interruption)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister Muir - oh, Mr. Muir. It's been awhile.
MR. JAMES MUIR: Give me the extra money. (Laughter) Greg Keefe, he is a deputy at the Treasury and Policy Board so he's a staff person, as opposed to somebody else, on that board.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, so you're saying this is the Greg Keefe who used to be a deputy minister?
MR. MUIR: Yes, the deputy is on the board anyway. I just point that out for information, for no other reason.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Morse.
MR. MORSE: . . . Treasury and Policy Board from SNSMR.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, he still is a deputy minister.
MR. MUIR: Yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I thought he was finished, so thank you for the clarification.
Is there any further discussion on those appointments? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
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That completes our appointments for this morning. I'd now like to turn to our presenters. We have, as I mentioned earlier, the Retail Gasoline Dealers Association of Nova Scotia and the Department of Labour and Workforce Development, Occupational Health and Safety Division.
It's my understanding that the Retail Gasoline Dealers Association is prepared to present first, so I would invite you, Mr. Conrad, to introduce anyone who is here with you and make your presentation, after which members will more than likely have some questions for you. Mr. Conrad.
MR. GRAHAM CONRAD: Mr. Chairman, committee members, good morning. My name is Graham Conrad and I'm the Executive Director of the Retail Gasoline Dealers Association of Nova Scotia. Joining me today is Wayne Pace, an independent gasoline retailer and an executive on our board of directors. Wayne is owner of an Esso outlet in Tantallon and he leases a Shell outlet in Sackville.
MR. WAYNE PACE: Thanks for having me here today.
MR. CONRAD: We're pleased to have been asked to meet with the committee and comment on the issue of gas-and-dash thefts and the impact upon gasoline retailers and their employees. The gas-and-dash issue originated with the advent of self-serve gasoline retailing in Nova Scotia, as part of the deregulation of the industry in 1991. To the best of my knowledge, self-serve gasoline retailing is the only industry where consumers take their product before paying and are allowed unrestricted freedom to leave quickly, without paying.
After deregulation in 1991, the incidence of drive-offs, or gas and dash, was not a major issue and not prevalent until many years later. In recent years, gas-and-dash theft occurrences have steadily grown due in large part to rising gasoline pump prices, as well as growth in public understanding about the relative ease of this kind of criminal activity. Some retailers report the increase of dishonest behaviour within their staff, thus also contributing to the number of gasoline thefts.
[9:15 a.m.]
As we now know, gasoline thieves can be of any age, gender or economic circumstance, and it only takes the theft of one fill-up to significantly reduce a retailer's profit for the entire shift. At 4 cents a litre margin, a theft of an average fill-up of 50 litres - assuming, for this example, the price at $1 a litre - means a retailer must sell an additional 1,250 litres to cover that loss or, in other words, 25 more fill-ups.
For the past three or four years we have received feedback from retailers, especially in urban areas of the province, over the growing incidence of gas-and-dash thefts. Media coverage on this growing criminal activity has increased as well.
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In March 2005, a young man named Grant De Patie, working at an Esso station in Maple Ridge, British Columbia, was killed trying to stop a thief from driving off with $12.30 worth of unpaid gasoline. In February 2007, British Columbia passed legislation requiring motorists to pay before they pump, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. This new legislation, combined with the tireless efforts of Grant's parents, helped raise the awareness across the country of the need to create a safer working environment for employees, in our industry, who may be at risk of violence or theft.
The prevalence of gas-and-dash incidents in Nova Scotia is difficult to determine but we know it happens all too often. In January of last year, the RGDA did some research on how the legislation in B.C. was impacting retailers and motorists in that province. We had already determined that the gas-and-dash issue would be a major item for discussion at our upcoming annual meeting in May. For this reason, we did some further research on the issue. Our research included discussions with several industry stakeholders and motorists in British Columbia.
The feedback we received was essentially that retailers had mixed opinions, with acceptance of the new legislation higher in more urban markets and opposition greater in rural markets. We were told that the legislation was initially a high-profile issue with the media, but acceptance quickly followed. We were told about the importance of advertising, promotion and education for the general public beforehand rather than relying on retailers, thereby creating greater public acceptance with little or no problems.
The Automotive Retailers Association of British Columbia representatives I spoke with pointed out the potential loss of inside-store sales like coffee, paper, confectionary items, when customers pay at the pumps. They further commented that pay first, pump later has had minimum impact upon convenience or levels of service for the motoring public, and yet the benefits to retailers and their staff have been huge.
In preparation for our annual meeting last year, we electronically surveyed retailers around the province - both corporate and independents - seeking responses to three questions related to establishing an association position when recommending to government a pay-first, pump-later regulation for the industry. The questions and responses are as follows.
We asked if they agreed with the recommendation and, as you can see from the responses, the majority did. We asked if it would have any negative impact on their business and you can see from the responses, the majority indicated that it wouldn't. We asked if it would have any negative impact on their customers and, as you can see, the majority indicated that it wouldn't. We received one or more responses from 16 counties in the province.
On February 25th we wrote to Minister Mark Parent, advising of the association's intent to survey our industry and gather data related to the current impacts from gas-and-dash
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thefts and how, if at all, the association would proceed with recommendations after our annual meeting.
We received written responses from Wilson Fuel, Mr. Dave Collins, in complete support of a pay-first, pump-later law. Mr. Collins also pointed out that an HRM police report indicated that 38 per cent of all reported thefts under $2,000 were gasoline drive-offs, thereby taking police department resources away from more important tasks.
At the May 31st RGDA meeting, after considerable discussion and debate, it was decided that the association should not request the introduction of a pay-first, pump-later regulation for Nova Scotia at this time. The reasons for adopting this position include:
- The issue is more serious in urban markets than in rural markets;
- Market conditions, they felt, should dictate individual retailer responses;
- Many retailers are not ready for new prepay gasoline dispensers;
- New Violence in the Workplace Regulations have already been introduced and have encouraged some retailers to begin a pay-first policy on their own; and
- Retailers expressed concern about negative impact upon inside-store sales.
On June 23rd of last year, the RGDA wrote to Minister Mark Parent, summarizing our position and advising that the association would not be making any recommendations at this time. The association would continue to report retailer experiences to the department and help retailers with the new violence in the workplace code of practice guidelines.
So in conclusion, again we want to thank the committee for the opportunity to express our views and to offer our assistance in any way, should the government decide that gas-and-dash regulations should be implemented. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Conrad. Now, Mr. LeBlanc, would you prefer to do your presentation now or should we have members ask questions at this point? What advice do you give to the committee as to which is the best way to proceed?
MR. JIM LEBLANC: I leave it entirely up to your discretion but if you want to ask questions while they're fresh, then you do so.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, members, are there any questions for Mr. Conrad, based on his presentation? Mr. Parker and then Mr. Morse.
MR. CHARLES PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good morning. I had just a couple of questions, I guess. First of all, how many employees are there, do you know, in the gas retail business in Nova Scotia? Not owners, but I guess actual employees working for business owners in the province, how many would you estimate?
MR. CONRAD: In a survey that was done several years ago, we concluded that there was an average of 10 employees per outlet and there are currently 425 outlets, so well over 4,000 people working in the industry.
MR. PARKER: So that would vary from maybe one employee to perhaps 20 or 30 in a very large outlet but an average of 10, overall, and more than 4,000.
MR. CONRAD: That's correct.
MR. PARKER: I guess this idea of moving towards paying before you pump is starting. Some retailers obviously have implemented it, especially on the night shift. Do you know how many retailers actually right now in the province have gone that way, that have implemented that pay-before-you-pump policy?
MR. CONRAD: Well, maybe I can get Wayne to help me with this one but my experience is that in, again, urban markets not only the response to the new Violence in the Workplace Regulations but also in response to the problem of gas and dash that you see more signs of retailers taking corrective action than you do see in rural parts of the province. Again, in my experience, I don't see an awful lot of change in practice in rural areas.
MR. PARKER: Do you have any idea of the percentage, like the number - 10 per cent, 20 per cent of retailers have implemented some form of this, at least during part of the day?
MR. CONRAD: It would really be a very, very rough guesstimate but again I would say that the changes I see happening for the most part are in response to the new Violence in the Workplace Regulations. They're pretty much focused on urban areas, so a percentage, no, I couldn't give you a percentage. I'd say definitely they would be less than more - a fewer than greater number of retailers, I would think.
MR. PARKER: So less than half the retailers are doing it, you're saying?
MR. CONRAD: Oh, definitely less than half.
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MR. PARKER: Is there a difference between the corporate ownership, as compared to the independent retailer?
MR. CONRAD: Yes, the corporate ownership is an outlet that is owned and essentially operated by the major oil company.
MR. PARKER: But I meant in relation to this pay-before-you-pump business.
MR. CONRAD: No. If anything, I think to be honest with you, there's a correlation between the volume of products sold and the incidence of gas and dash. In urban markets, many, if not the majority of the outlets - certainly in HRM, by far the majority of all the outlets in HRM are corporate sites.
MR. PARKER: Okay. Wayne, did you have any comment on this?
MR. PACE: Just going back to your previous question about the number of sites that have a pay-before-you-pump policy, the only ones I'm aware of are the ones that are open after midnight and that's to conform with the Occupational Health and Safety.
MR. PARKER: Okay, I want to go back to, I guess the survey here, Graham, that was amongst your members. On first blush it looks like perhaps most retailers were not opposed to the idea of pay before you pump and they asked if it would be having a negative impact on your business. Most were saying that it would not, and not a negative impact on customers either. So it appeared that there seemed to be some support amongst retailers for this policy, yet you've made the decision not to do it. Is there a reason why, that perhaps the survey is different than what the result is here?
MR. CONRAD: Well, that's a good question and the answer is very simply that the survey was done before our annual conference and those people responding to the survey weren't necessarily the same people who attended the annual conference and participated in the discussion and debate. Traditionally, we have far greater support and attendance from rural Nova Scotia at our functions than we do from urban areas. So it's a combination of perhaps different people responding to the survey, from those who attended the conference.
Also, part of the explanation would be that after the discussion and the debate and the understanding of the impact, there were many retailers around the province who say it's just simply not an issue with us, we know our customers on a first-name basis and we don't have the dispensing facilities to comply, and we're not at this point in time in a position to invest in new dispensing equipment. Those are sort of the discussions around why, at this point in time - and I emphasize "at this point in time" - it was suggested that we shouldn't come up with a formal position.
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But at the same time, having said that, the caveat is that there was no retailer who would be opposed or who would resist complying with regulations, should government decide to go that way.
MR. PARKER: So amongst rural retailers, it's not hitting their bottom line very much - maybe not at all or just very, very occasionally - and I guess you have to balance that against the cost of implementing the system. Most retailers, at least in the rural areas, are saying no, I can't justify the cost of it because I've only had one in five years - or whatever - but in the urban areas it may be a different story.
MR. CONRAD: Absolutely. Wayne is from HRM and he can speak quite accurately about the experience in urban markets, and it's an entirely different experience from the experience in rural markets.
MR. PARKER: Can I ask, Wayne, what has been your experience? How often has this occurred for your station?
MR. PACE: I lost $118 this past weekend and that's pretty much the average for a weekend. I can lose $100 on a weekend, or in a week, so I'm looking at $5,000 a year in people pumping and not paying.
The way the industry has gone over the last 10, 15 years is that we've had to expand our offers inside our stores - i.e., coffee, subs, everything like that. Sometimes our employees get very busy servicing those outlets, as well, so they don't have time to sit and watch the pumps the whole time. So it happens - you get busy, and you look out and somebody drives off without paying for their gas.
MR. PARKER: You're an independent retailer?
MR. PACE: Yes, I am.
MR. PARKER: Are you considering implementing the pay-before-you-pump?
MR. PACE: If I implemented that, then there is - I guess I'm a bit afraid to because there are five gas stations in my area. I'm one, the other four are all corporate-owned and operated sites and if I implement that and the four corporates don't, then I could be at a disadvantage.
MR. PARKER: Do I have time for one more question, Mr. Chairman?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure.
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MR. PARKER: The Province of British Columbia has implemented this system. Are you getting any feedback on how it's working out there for consumers, or for independent retailers? From both sides, there's the consumer issue and there's the owner issue here too.
[9:30 a.m.]
MR. CONRAD: Yes, we've spoken to consumers and we've spoken to an oil company representative and we've spoken to members of the largest automotive service and repair association out there, the Automotive Retailers Association of British Columbia. As a matter of fact, their executive director was here just this past Thursday. It's now a non-issue, it's just accepted. There are no negative comments or feedback coming from the industry whatsoever. It sounds like to implement a regulation like this would be a completely new way of doing business for the entire industry, but in actual fact there is a large percentage of the industry now that already pays before they pump, just because it's convenient for them.
I don't know - again, I couldn't give you a number, but I know in urban markets there is a percentage of customers who prefer to pay for their purchase at the pumps, so it means nothing to them. In terms of the usual routine for someone who doesn't buy a fill-up at a self-serve outlet, there's no change in their routine. Currently you put product in your car, then you go in and pay for it, as long as it's not a fill-up.
Well, the regulation says in British Columbia, or as it might be here, it would just mean that the customer goes in and pays a certain amount of money and then goes out and pumps it, so nothing really changes. The only complication arises when somebody wants to fill up their vehicle, has to prepay it first, and the dispensers are not equipped to handle it.
MR. PARKER: Okay, thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Parker. Minister Morse.
MR. MORSE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I'll keep this brief. Graham, in your presentation you described how much gas would have to be sold in order to cover one $50 theft, based on a 4-cent margin. So I want to embellish this a little bit more by way of questions. What percentage of gas is purchased with a credit card?
MR. CONRAD: By far, the majority. Then again, it varies outlet by outlet. Any highway location generally as much as 80 per cent of the entire volume is on credit cards.
MR. MORSE: And what's the average charge for credit cards - service charge percentage?
MR. CONRAD: Are you talking the bank service charges?
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MR. MORSE: Yes. You know, VISA, MasterCard.
MR. CONRAD: Two per cent would be an average number - 2 per cent of the dollar value.
MR. MORSE: So if gas is going at $1 a litre, as per your example, and you're paying 2 cents, in actual fact your gross margin is 2 cents. Based on that, I believe you'd have to sell 50 more fill-ups . . .
MR. CONRAD: You're absolutely correct.
MR. MORSE: . . . to break even, and 25 to 1 is a big swallow. But in actual fact, I think that it's not 25 to 1.
MR. CONRAD: You're absolutely correct.
MR. MORSE: It's probably closer to 50 to 1. Anyway, I just wanted to point out that a tremendous amount of the gross margin actually goes to credit card companies.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Morse. Mr. Paris.
MR. PERCY PARIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I'll try to be brief. If it's possible, later on this morning, if time allows, maybe we can come back to a Q & A?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure.
MR. PARIS: I guess my first question is around the survey. I know that in your preamble, you had mentioned there's a difference between rural versus urban versus city. I guess a couple of questions that occur to me about the survey - when was the survey done? In other words, at what peak time was it, as far as the prices were concerned? In the survey itself for the respondents, is it broken down more specifically to what is rural, what is urban and what is city?
MR. CONRAD: The survey was done in February 2008 and the survey was done electronically. The significance of that, if I could clarify, is that again by e-mail or by WinFax, I only reach a percentage of the retailers in the industry. In total, there are 420-some-odd retailers in the industry but I can't reach them all electronically. So what we received was kind of a random sample of about, whatever the numbers add up to, 75 or 85 retailers who responded - 72.
Again, it's because of the electronic means of doing it. Had we sent out a survey by mail and given more people an opportunity to reply and had it been more formal than it was, perhaps the results could have been different, I'm not sure.
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MR. PARIS: So will there be further consultation with the retailers? Are you going to validate the assumptions of this original survey at some point in time?
MR. CONRAD: Yes, I will. In addition to that, there is an industry magazine - it's actually an Atlantic Canadian magazine - and we have done two articles since our annual meeting, published in this magazine, reporting on what took place at the annual conference, and the results of the annual conference and the decision to, at this point in time - and I really emphasize "at this point in time" - to sort of stay neutral in terms of a recommendation.
We're also involved in some media coverage as well. So I think the retailers in the province pretty well understand why our position is the way it is right now.
MR. PARIS: You had mentioned about the regulation and I think the word that you used - you didn't want to be placed at an unfair disadvantage. So if the government was to enact any sort of legislation, is my interpretation correct that if there's legislation, you want to see it compulsory, that it applies to everyone, that no one would be exempt?
MR. PACE: Yes, that would be my hope.
MR. PARIS: And you want the government to do that?
MR. PACE: I'd love the government to step in and do it, yes. Just to reiterate what Graham said at our annual conference, I'd say of the 90 or so members who were there, there's probably only 10 that were in urban areas, the rest were from the rural communities. Most of them all said the same thing, I know all my customers.
Unfortunately, I don't know all my customers and if you go around the city or anywhere in the city, in Truro, any of the major centres, even in Digby, you don't know all your customers, and that's where the problem exists.
MR. PARIS: I do have more questions but in the spirit of co-operation, I'll leave them for later on.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure. Ms. Whalen.
MS. DIANA WHALEN: Thank you so much, we really appreciate your being here today, because it's important to hear directly. I thank you particularly, Mr. Pace, for coming. I know you're in business and you're taking time to come in and join us.
My concern, and I think members of the Legislature share that, is the concern for workers' safety is really the bottom line. We have had one very terrible incident in the last couple of years, the one in Dartmouth, where someone, just really by the grace of God, was not killed. We know that this is a danger, and you raise the issue about British Columbia and
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political action coming after the loss of someone's life, which is what we don't want to see. So I'm really interested in whether or not that was part of the debate when we talked about the business impacts, because all of your retail gas station owners, and so on, are also employers and know their employees and care about that.
MR. CONRAD: Absolutely. If the incident you're talking about in Dartmouth was the Ultramar location . . .
MS. WHALEN: Yes.
MR. CONRAD: . . . that was not a gas and dash.
MS. WHALEN: It wasn't a theft but it shows the vulnerability of staff.
MR. CONRAD: You're absolutely right, and that exposed a very serious problem within the industry that had existed for years and years - that being that one person could be operating a very large retail outlet and be totally exposed to the public which, in hindsight, we realize now, was just awful.
We did have a very serious accident in Shubenacadie, or Stewiacke - Stewiacke - where a husband and wife were operating the outlet and the individual tried to stop the motorist from driving away and they ran over his leg. So we've had close calls but in terms of workers' safety, you're absolutely right, that's first and foremost in the minds of retailers.
This is all fairly new right now, but I think the Violence in the Workplace legislation that has just come out, the training materials that have come out, the guidelines and the training materials that have come out to assist retailers, I know I see changes taking place within the industry in terms of hours of operation, the pumps that are available after-hours, numbers of people working in any given shift, physical changes. I see that happening anyway, but that's sort of related to the Violence in the Workplace legislation.
MS. WHALEN: In fact, I wanted to ask you about that because you said that some of the changes that might be necessary are coming as a result of that, you said that earlier in your presentation. So I wondered if you could tell us a little bit about what changes you've seen that might help also on the gas-and-dash side. What was required under these new regulations and what's being done?
MR. CONRAD: That's a good question. I honestly can't say I've seen a lot happen in terms of the gas-and-dash curtailment. What I'm seeing happen is more related to the possibility of violence in the workplace. Other than a prepay approach, there's not an awful lot a retailer can do, other than making sure they're as diligent as possible and scrutinizing every possible transaction. Short of all that, the only way to stop gas and dash is to make people pay first.
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MS. WHALEN: Does it matter what time of day in terms of this gas and dash? Is it all day long or are we looking more at the wee hours of the morning, that sort of thing?
MR. PACE: It happens all the time, more prevalent on the weekends, but I had one, myself, last week - it happens anytime. Sometimes it may not even be deliberate. I had one two weeks ago, I looked out and saw a regular customer at the diesel pump, pumping diesel into his Volkswagen. I saw him, so I continued about my business, and all of a sudden I looked up and he was gone. He came in yesterday and I said, oh, by the way, so he paid for it. I know he didn't do it on purpose, but it was something that happened and he had no idea that he forgot to pay.
So, yes, are they all theft? Probably not on purpose . . .
MS. WHALEN: That is the exception, though.
MR. PACE: It doesn't matter. For two weeks I was out $42, or whatever the amount was, and if I didn't recognize him - that's why on the weekends it happens more because I have part-time staff in a lot on the weekends and they don't know as many customers as I do. I know a lot of my customers, but my part-time staff - I usually get 12 to 18 months out of part-time staff, that's the longevity of their stay with me. They don't get to know the customers like I do.
MS. WHALEN: I'd like to ask one other question around the definition of "urban". We often think of HRM, of course, right off the bat, but would you say, again, there's support for the idea of the prepay in other urban centres like the Sydney area, for example, and how about in towns like Truro and Port Hawkesbury? Would that be considered, again, an area where there might be more support?
MR. CONRAD: I know one of the comments that was made at our annual conference last year was that nobody would resist, nobody is opposed to the introduction of gas-and-dash regulations. It's just a question of how aggressively we would move towards having regulations introduced. Having said that, I would have to say off the top of my head, HRM and probably Sydney are the two markets in the province where a huge percentage of this stuff takes place, especially HRM. There could be a correlation there with the size of the volume and the demands on the workers because, you know, when you've got the pumps lined up and somebody's buying confectionary goods or newspapers and you're serving coffee, it does get pretty distracting on the part of the employee.
I think it's significant that in British Columbia, the advocate pushing for these regulations was the family of the young boy who was killed, so it was pretty emotional, obviously, and pretty hard-hitting. There wasn't an association or there wasn't a business that may or may not benefit or have economic advantages with regulations that might be introduced, it was actually the parents of the individual who was killed.
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[9:45 a.m.]
MS. WHALEN: And that really meant there was a champion for this cause and a very emotional person, really, to carry the banner.
MR. CONRAD: Yes.
MS. WHALEN: I do think it's interesting that you say there's no opposition to this per se, that if regulations were introduced and everybody in business was given the same level playing field, it would be accepted. That's important because government has brought in regulations in the past that hurt business in one way or another. Most recently, the cigarettes in convenience stores had to be covered up. There was a cost to each and every convenience store to remove them from view and it was opposed, yet it was done for the greater good of our population.
So government can bring in regulations with or without support, but I think your organization is in a bit of a difficult position as it seems. You have an indication on the one hand that it would be accepted and you've also had a motion to say, we do not recommend it, we're not pushing for it, so it has left you in a little bit of an in-between ground. I think we do hear very seriously that it is a big problem, it's widespread particularly in Sydney and HRM, and I would say we need to take some action on it in order to protect people and protect business.
With that, I know we need to hear from our government representatives so, Mr. Chairman, if you would like to carry on.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Whalen. Just before we proceed, from a legal standpoint, Mr. Pace, are you able to identify the vehicles that are part of the gas and dash through your surveillance system? Is there a way of identifying them?
MR. PACE: Unfortunately, my surveillance system can't pick up licence plate numbers. I can see the car, but I can't see the licence plate. There are surveillance systems that can pick up licence plate numbers, but I haven't invested in that as of yet. My technology can't do that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you have any idea of stations in the metro area, or the Sydney area, how many have implemented that type of surveillance system?
MR. PACE: Not even the corporate sites that I know of can pick up licence plate numbers.
MR. CHAIRMAN: So you really have no means, other than telling the police, here's the make and model, you have no other means of identifying the vehicle?
[Page 17]
MR. PACE: No.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. So I take it when you say you're losing $100 a week, none of that is recovered?
MR. PACE: No.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Paris, before we proceed?
MR. PARIS: I just have one more quick one and it's sort of on the same track as one of my questions around across the border. I think it might be following a little bit - I might be piggybacking a little bit on Ms. Whalen's questions. When you talk about rural versus urban versus city, and when I hear the comments about HRM and Sydney, would it be of any benefit if regulations - and I'd like to hear it from you - were done, for lack of a better word, by zones or by areas, only in certain jurisdictions as opposed to across the board, or do you just simply want to see across-the-board implementation?
MR. PACE: If you said Zone 1 was going to be regulated to have to pay before you pump, then I'd be happy because I'm in Zone 1, but I think it would be very confusing for the consumer.
MR. PARIS: Okay.
MR. CONRAD: If I could just comment on that. When you go back to 1991, that's when the decision was made to allow self-serves, so there were no self-serves at all, so this was not even an issue prior to 1991. When the legislation was changed to allow self-serves, the industry evolved to the point where it is now. If this is an outcome of self-serve, which it is, this is strictly a problem with self-serves, then if regulations were introduced and the timing was such, then the industry would have to evolve to meet the demands of the new regulations.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Paris. Mr. Muir.
MR. MUIR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of questions. Graham, in your opening comments, I think you had indicated that 38 per cent of thefts under $2,000 in HRM were gas and dash?
MR. CONRAD: Yes.
MR. MUIR: That just kind of is a shocking figure to me.
[Page 18]
MR. CONRAD: That information was given to me by Wilson Fuel, Dave Collins, and that comment was made by HRM Police to a meeting of oil company representatives that were there.
MR. MUIR: Back around 1991, when we did away with full service, or gave people the option, I know in the smaller towns, like the Town of Truro, each town had its own retail gasoline dealers association, they had set up sort of a rotation of when a station would be open and that, I assume, went probably around 1991 too. It would seem to me that one of the difficulties that maybe we have, both good and bad, what's great for the consumer is that I can go a block to get gas, rather than going four blocks to get gas.
Has the Retail Gasoline Dealers Association ever thought about companies or people getting together and saying, we don't need everybody open. Maybe we could go back and I'm open on the first week of the month and somebody else - is there any talk? It just seems to me that the more outlets there are open at any time, the greater opportunity there is to do this.
MR. CONRAD: I have two quick comments related to that idea. One is that back in 1990-91, there was very little if any corporate site presence within the industry, that's number one. Number two, the number of outlets in the province right now, the 425 or whatever, is probably half of what it was back in 1991.
MR. PACE: If I could add a little comment to that. My first service station was in 1987, I ran the Esso on Portland Street and I was open every fifth week. That meant I was open Saturdays for 12 to 14 hours, I was open Sundays for 12 to 14 hours and I was open three additional evenings for an extra four hours. You were staffed for four weeks with a certain number of staff and all of a sudden you're open that many more hours, so for my first year and a half in business I worked 100 hours every fifth week and it was very difficult to staff every fifth week.
MR. MUIR: Okay.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Muir. If we can now move to the presentation by the Department of Labour and Workforce Development, Occupational Health and Safety Division. I'm not sure who's presenting, if it's Mr. Sampson or Mr. LeBlanc, but the floor is yours.
MR. LEBLANC: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, committee members. My name is Jim LeBlanc, Director of the Occupational Health and Safety Division. I have with me Stewart Sampson, who is the Provincial Manager of Professional Services and was instrumental in preparing and making available to various industry sectors some of the support material that we were able to provide with the introduction of the Violence in the Workplace Regulations, which is a bit of the focus of the discussion today.
[Page 19]
Initially I would like to thank you for the invitation to come today and talk about the gas-and-dash issue from our perspective and hope that we'll be able to identify some of the program elements within the occupational health and safety regime and some other government regulatory regimes that do focus on the issue of gas and dash.
Just to provide a little bit of background and from the perspective of the Occupational Health and Safety Division, we administer the Occupational Health and Safety Act in provincially regulated workplaces. We deliver our programming in conjunction with the prevention staff at the Workers' Compensation Board. In terms of staffing we have 30 officers who provide information on compliance promotion, they conduct inspections and investigations and enforce those requirements.
In 2008, the Occupational Health and Safety Division had 51 contacts with employers in the retail gas sector. The majority of those contacts resulted from our compliance promotion efforts related to the introduction of the Violence in the Workplace Regulations. As part of the strategy for introducing the regulations, we made a concerted effort to contact some of the retail sectors that we knew were going to be impacted, including gas retail, convenience stores and the taxi industry, to make them aware of the requirements through the period from 2007 to 2008.
We also prepared and provided a number of self-help documents and I believe some of that information was included in the package that was distributed to you. There was a specific Violence in the Workplace Regulations application document for the retail gas sector. In conjunction with the Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety, we distributed about 7,000 copies of Violence in the Workplace documents to assist employers to both identify the problem and the solutions to violence in the workplace. We've recently published an additional document in conjunction with the Workers' Compensation Board and the Retail Council of Canada as an orientation for new entrants into retail employment. We've tried as best we can to ensure that there are tools available to the industry to both identify and address the problem.
I think from the perspective of the gas-and-dash incidents, we certainly, in the Occupational Health and Safety Division, recognize that it is a risk associated with convenience store operations, it's criminal activity. We also recognize that these incidents are still occurring, but they're primarily reported to the police because of the nature of the theft.
In terms of background, there are a couple of laws that would apply in this sector. The overarching Occupational Health and Safety Act contains a general duty provision that requires the employer to take reasonable precautions to ensure the health and safety of persons, both employees and people who are near the workplace. They also contain the authority, if you like, to make regulations to address specific workplace hazards. They are
[Page 20]
not specifically focused on the issue of theft, they are specifically focused on the issue of workplace safety.
The violence regulations themselves require an employer, in the sectors that the regulation applies to, to review their operations and come up with a strategy where there's evidence that they may be a target of violence, to initially develop a policy, develop a prevention program around violence and a strategy to reduce the likelihood that staff will be exposed to violence.
It becomes very relevant in the issue of gas and dash, because part of that program obviously is the instruction that an attendant at a gas station may receive in relation to a theft. So it's very much a function of what the attendant knows and how they respond to those incidents when they occur.
The Labour Standards Code has also been amended recently, with a specific concern around failure to pay for services that are provided. The amendment that was introduced to the Labour Standards Code makes provision that a financial loss associated with gas and dash can't be recovered from the employee unless a number of conditions are met. The first one is that there must be written authorization by the employee for any deduction to be made. The employer must be able to demonstrate that the gas-and-dash loss was the employee's fault and any deduction made can't bring the employee's wages for the pay period below the minimum wage.
Gas and dash is theft. There are provisions in the Criminal Code that address this, and I think as we've sort of heard this morning, the difficulty is often in identifying the individual who perpetrated that crime. But in addition to the Criminal Code, where an individual can be identified, the Motor Vehicle Act provides for driver's licence suspensions for six months, where an individual is convicted under the Criminal Code in relation to one of these offences.
In terms of laws that are outside the province, in relation to this issue we, as well, had received some correspondence from Doug De Patie from British Columbia, encouraging government to adopt legislation around pay-before-you-pump laws. This issue was reviewed at the time and we know that B.C. has put in place a prepay for fuel requirement and it's knows as Grant's Law, which was the name of Mr. De Patie's son who was killed tragically in that accident in British Columbia, when he attempted to stop the individual who was leaving without paying for his gas.
So as was identified in British Columbia, customers pay for fuel 24/7, and similar laws we were able to identify are in place in four states in the U.S. Also in the U.S. there are 10 states that have provisions for the suspension of driver's licences for stealing gas. In some states this is only a penalty on second offences. In addition, there are two U.S. states that only allow full-service stations, which is another way of addressing the problem.
[Page 21]
[10:00 a.m.]
So that, in summary, is I guess the comments that we had in terms of the gas-and-dash issue. If you have some questions, we'd be pleased to address them.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Parker.
MR. PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for your presentation. I guess I'm coming around to believe that there might be certainly some merit in having a law similar to what British Columbia has implemented. There's certainly evidence here that there's violence in the workplace, or that there is some harm to employees. We've had a couple of cases, in Dartmouth and in Stewiacke, where there have been cases of gas and dash and actually there have been harmful effects to the employee. It sounds like retailers would not be opposed to it, that it would be a good thing. There is certainly evidence that a crime is occurring. One retailer here is losing thousands of dollars every year.
So why aren't we there yet? Why don't we have legislation, I guess, take some action here to try to resolve this problem? If it's working in a number of American jurisdictions, working in British Columbia, why can't we have pay-before-you-pump legislation here? Or why isn't government proceeding towards that objective?
MR. LEBLANC: I think the strategy that we moved forward with when we introduced the Violence in the Workplace Regulations - and this is about violence, it's not about theft - was that we created options, I guess, in terms of how employers would choose to address that risk that is presented to them in the workplace.
I think from that perspective - and it has been sort of identified here - the industry has the ability to move forward with these initiatives in the absence of regulations, if they so choose. So there is an ability to implement these but there are commercial concerns, I guess, associated with sort of being the first one to move that issue forward. It becomes a question of whether the flexibility that the current laws provide, in terms of reducing the risk of violence to employees, is an appropriate place for us to be at this particular point in time.
MR. PARKER: Isn't it the role of government, though, to show leadership and when they see a problem to try to resolve it, try to prevent the continuance of the crime or the continuance of the danger to employees? It has been proven to be working, it's good for employers, it's good for employees, it would be good for the general public. I'm just at a loss as to why we aren't moving forward with this at this time.
MR. LEBLANC: I don't really know that I'm the one who can answer the question because if all those benefits are there, I guess my question would be, why wouldn't industry move forward with it?
[Page 22]
MR. PARKER: Well, that's another question. So I guess towards that objective, is there consultation occurring with industry to try to see if there's a workable solution here?
MR. LEBLANC: I think as Mr. Conrad had identified, there was some consultation on the introduction of the violence regulation with the industry sector. There were discussions with the Occupational Health and Safety Advisory Council that provides advice to the minister on regulation in the area of health and safety and we did consider the recommendation that came forward from the industry after they did their survey in the Spring of last year.
MR. PARKER: Is there any interdepartmental consultation going on with Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, or with other departments that might be involved here, just to see if, again, there's some merit in this proposal that seems to be working elsewhere?
MR. LEBLANC: There is not an interdepartmental committee in place at this point in time.
MR. PARKER: Do you have any plans to, I guess, consult with the general public, to get feedback from what consumers think of all this?
MR. LEBLANC: I guess from our perspective, the consultations that we've been involved in and the ones we would plan to go through when the violence regulation is again reviewed - they're ongoing now in terms of the development of the internal responsibility system at workplaces and fall protection - is around the issue. I think it's important from our perspective that this issue of theft and the risks to the employee, they really need to be separated because the risk to the staff and the safety of the staff is what the occupational health and safety legislation is focused on, as opposed to the financial loss.
MR. PARKER: Finally I just want to ask, is there any dialogue with police forces? They're the ones who have to step in here when there is a crime, either taking gasoline at no charge or if there's a crime against an employee. Is there any dialogue with the RCMP or other police forces in the province?
MR. LEBLANC: When the issues were initially reviewed, we were in discussion with the police, in terms of trying to get some indication of the level of criminal activity around gas-and-dash incidents.
Where there are incidents that occur in gas stations that we're involved in, we do consult with the police in that process, so it's kind of a co-operative effort, recognizing that the criminal matters take precedence over the health and safety issues.
MR. PARKER: Okay, thank you.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Muir.
MR. MUIR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The B.C. legislation that's in, could you tell me what that does? Is that for everybody or is that for those that are open 24 hours a day, or how does it work?
MR. LEBLANC: The regulation in British Columbia requires prepaid, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
MR. MUIR: That's for everybody, so no exceptions? I guess, and it's not really occupational health, but one of the things that happens, of course, is a lot of the stations now have promotions and you get the promotion benefit after you pay. I know, for example, I've got a card - I've got a couple, two or three of those things - and being one who has, over the past number of years, purchased more than my fair share of gasoline, that makes it kind of awkward. Of course the other thing, too, looking at the corporate stores in particular, is if you prepay you're not as likely to go in there and buy your lottery tickets and all of those things you'd be putting on your credit card. So I mean they're not only in gas, they're in the other business too.
Anyway, I was just kind of curious about the B.C. legislation. I knew it was there but I just didn't realize it was totally universal. I guess it would work best for those people who do have pay-at-the-pump options. I remember being frustrated one night over in Dartmouth because I wanted to fill up my car and I had to prepay but the particular place that I went didn't have that option. Anyway, I was not real happy but I needed the gas so we worked it out. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Paris.
MR. PARIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I've got one question but it's got an (a), (b) and (c) to it. I was looking at your slide with respect to laws in Nova Scotia. Since you're here, and I respect your wealth of knowledge and experience and all those good things that go with the job that you do - the (a) part of the question is, when you talk about the Criminal Code of Canada and theft under $5,000, do you know how many charges have been laid in Nova Scotia related to gas and dash; (b) of those who have been charged, how many of those are successfully - if I can use the word "successfully" - found guilty? The (c) part of the question is, and again this is very contingent on your wealth of knowledge, is this the best way to offer protection to Nova Scotians?
MR. LEBLANC: My answer might be a little shorter than your question, because I'm not aware of the specific statistics in terms of the number of criminal charges or the successful prosecutions that have occurred. I'm sure it's information that we could extract from the system if you wanted to pursue that with us.
[Page 24]
In terms of the best way, I guess having worked in this field for 20-odd years, my sense is that there's no one unique way that works all the time, that there needs to be options available to employers to address the concern. Our focus is on the outcome, in terms of ensuring the safety of the individual. I think some of the initiatives that have been identified include things like hours of operation, closing pumps, isolation of clerks in stores. So there's a whole number of strategies available to employers. I think they need to be able to pick the ones that work best in their specific circumstance, so I don't think there's a magic bullet that fixes everything.
MR. PARIS: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Whalen.
MS. WHALEN: Thank you very much. I think it's interesting when you say there are a lot of other options for retailers, but the point has been made very clearly that there are competitive pressures for any retailer that takes that first step, the ones that are going to invest in a safer work environment, whether they want to create the locked doors and the special lock boxes, doubling their staff at night, there's a big cost - or introducing prepaid - it might actually send some customers elsewhere.
This is an industry that's particularly under stress at this time, I think there's no question. We've had a lot of discussion around gas regulations and the need for it or not, and the financial pressures that the retail gasoline sector is under. For that reason, I think, it's more compelling that the government needs to set the ground rules for everybody. I wonder if that has been discussed, that this industry is in a different financial condition, I think, than other industries.
MR. LEBLANC: I don't know that I can speak generally for the government, but I can say from our perspective that any time we take a policy or a regulation forward, we do look at the implications, both in the ability to come into compliance with those requirements as well as the cost implications for employers. So from our perspective, it's very much an issue in ensuring that we're not creating standards that individuals can't comply with.
MS. WHALEN: Certainly in other instances of government regulation, there has been a move to bring it in, in a phased process, so that you can take out the financial difficulty a little bit by spreading it over a period of time. Really, if we had done this when we began to discuss the difficulties in gas and dash - and we've said they've increased greatly in recent years with the rising cost of gasoline and other factors - I mean, we could be there today if we thought to phase it in. So there are ways to mitigate the financial impact, is what I'm saying, so has that been looked at as another option?
MR. LEBLANC: Well, I certainly agree with you but again, I guess I go back to the point that we need to ensure, from the perspective of occupational health and safety, that
[Page 25]
we're separating the risk to the employee versus the financial cost of these thefts that are occurring. But we do consider the financial impact of regulatory initiatives but this issue is about theft, and workers' safety is an issue as well.
MS. WHALEN: Are you working then with the Department of Justice in any way? I mean, surely the Department of Justice looks at this as an issue of crime and an area that needs regulation or needs some control.
MR. LEBLANC: Well, I can't speak for the Department of Justice. There certainly is a large initiative on public safety that the government has identified and resourced, so that is underway as well. But I mean there's no question that at a societal level society is changing, and things that one would often consider as never happening in Nova Scotia have happened, and we need to evolve to address those concerns.
MS. WHALEN: Well, the government has a policy now and that was to leave independent retailers, whether corporate or otherwise, on their own to deal with workplace violence and to give them the guidebook to address that. Is that not right, right now, that the decision was made, let's everybody sort of fend for themselves within this voluntary system?
MR. LEBLANC: I don't think I'd characterize it that way. I think we've provided very clear direction in terms of the menu of options that are available and people need to choose from those, with the outcome being the important issue.
MS. WHALEN: It's a little better than laissez-faire, I agree, you've set out some guidelines. But what are we doing now to check back and to ensure that companies are doing something to protect employees? Is there a follow-up system, is what I'm asking for now, a review?
MR. LEBLANC: I guess the initial emphasis from 2007, when the regulation sort of was passed, and in 2008, when it came into force, was really around compliance promotion. We contacted - and I guess I can't say all, but the majority of the gasoline retail outlets, to make them aware of what the changes were and what we would expect from them. That program has now sort of been operationalized, so there are inspections that will go on, that we will follow up on incidents that come to our attention in terms of looking at what employers have in place.
[10:15 a.m.]
The underlying principle, I guess, of the Occupational Health and Safety Act is the expectation that people in the workplace have the best understanding of what their risks are and will take reasonable measures to address them. We're the regulator that basically makes sure that does happen.
[Page 26]
MS. WHALEN: So it's just going to be regular sort of periodic inspections and you'll respond to any incidents, but it's not an overall review to see if your policy was the right policy or if we need real set regulations that would address this issue?
MR. LEBLANC: Currently in the work plan that we have for regulations, our plan is to come back to the Violence in the Workplace Regulations in 2013, to look at them again to see whether they need updating or revision. We're not currently involved in a review of policy decisions around the content of workplace violence regulations.
MS. WHALEN: I see your point. I think it's worth mentioning from the presentation that Mr. Conrad gave us, that he said the B.C. Automotive Retailers Association said very clearly that now that they're looking back at the regulations that are in place there, benefits to retailers and their staff have been huge. So there's evidence across Canada then, in other jurisdictions, that this is working and it has been very beneficial, and that is to the peace of mind of staff and employers in those businesses.
MR. LEBLANC: Again, I certainly can't dispute the fact that British Columbia, as far as I'm aware, is the only province that has instituted these requirements.
MS. WHALEN: Do you know of any of your other counterparts across Canada that are looking at it? B.C. has been the first, so who else is looking at it?
MR. LEBLANC: I think Mr. De Patie made some yeoman efforts, I guess, in terms of identifying this issue - he has been across the country, he made representations to the Ministers of Labour responsible for occupational health and safety, two or three years ago. So I think all of the jurisdictions have certainly had the issue placed before them. I'm not aware of specific pay-before-you-pump provisions being considered. There are violence provisions that exist in most jurisdictions, with some exceptions, across the country. B.C. is the only one that I'm aware of that has actually moved forward on this initiative.
MS. WHALEN: Okay, so you don't know of any others that are imminent?
MR. LEBLANC: I'm not aware of any.
MS. WHALEN: I'm sure we'll be watching that here just to see, because I think too often we're late in adopting something that makes a lot of sense and I'd like us to be on the cusp of it, if we could. I think there's certainly an indication here that the industry would accept that regulation and it would have an impact on at least taking away one possible cause of violence.
I realize that what we're talking about here are two different things because we're talking about a vulnerable population at work, particularly in the nighttime hours and at a business that's open long hours, sometimes all day, every day, so that's one issue. The other
[Page 27]
one is the specific issue around the loss to business and the thefts that are occurring on a regular basis. If we could address the theft a little through this measure, it might also at the same time help the workers on the scene. I think it could have a double benefit to people working in that industry.
As we heard today there are about 4,000 or more people who work in gas stations, so there's a significant number of people that could be helped, so it's of great interest to me. I do think this is an idea that has a lot of merit and should be looked at a lot more seriously than we are.
I just wanted to ask Mr. Pace, have the Violence in the Workplace Regulations led to changes in your business, if you could just tell us, as an example of what's happening with your colleagues?
MR. PACE: I didn't have to make a lot of changes because a lot of the regulations that were brought in, I had done previously because of the hours my business is open, so that didn't affect me. I didn't have to install any pay windows or anything like that because I'm not open overnight. I've always had two people on staff, and Imperial Oil and Shell - I lease a Shell station, I own the Esso and I've run corporate Essos in the past. They do have their guidelines and I've always followed those guidelines. So I didn't really have to make a lot of changes, no.
MS. WHALEN: So it would have been different if you were an all-night operation?
MR. PACE: Yes, definitely.
MS. WHALEN: That would have been the major difference for you?
MR. PACE: Yes, definitely.
MS. WHALEN: Thank you very much, that's it for me.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Whalen. Mr. Muir.
MR. MUIR: Thank you. Going back to the B.C. thing, did the oil companies do away with their promotions there or do they still have them? Do you know?
MR. LEBLANC: I wouldn't have any information on that.
MR. PACE: I don't know why they would have to - what kind of promotions are you talking about?
[Page 28]
MR. MUIR: I guess what I'm thinking of, most promotions come at the end of the sale. Like, if you go to Wilson's and you pay with a debit card, you get 2 cents off; if you go to Ultramar and you have a Value Max card, you get 2 cents off; if you go to Esso, you get Aeroplan points; if you go to Shell, you get Air Miles. It used to be if you went to Sobeys or Superstore - everybody had a promotion and with most of them it was contingent on being completed after the sale.
MR. PACE: You can come in and prepay for your gas now, but . . .
MR. MUIR: If you're at the pump?
MR. PACE: No, you can come into the store. You can park at the pump, walk inside and say, for example, you don't know if you have enough money in your account, so you can come up and say, I wanted to see if I can get $25 dollars in gas. You can prepay, use your debit card, use your points card, get your points and if it's all approved, then you go out and pump your gas. So you get your points anyway, regardless of whether you pay before or after you pump.
MR. MUIR: I'm trying to figure out the logistics of this thing. You would have to go inside to do that, wouldn't you?
MR. PACE: Yes.
MR. MUIR: Whereas most prepays are at the pump - that's my point.
MR. PACE: Currently most prepays are at the pump, yes.
MR. MUIR: That's why I wondered if they did away with it to get everybody outside the store paying for it as opposed to people inside.
MR. PACE: There are people who want to pay at the pumps, and there are people who aren't comfortable paying at the pumps. Right now I have probably 17 per cent to 18 per cent of people who pay at the pump. Some people have the capability, they're paying with a credit card, but they don't have the desire to pay at the pump. Whether they don't trust putting their credit card in a pump, or what the issue is, there are people who don't want to pay at the pump, they want to walk into the store.
MR. MUIR: Good.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Muir. Mr. Paris.
[Page 29]
MR. PARIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is for anyone who wants to answer this question. My question is, what future consultations, if any, are planned between government and the RGDA?
MR. LEBLANC: I'll go first. The Retail Gasoline Dealers Association is an employer association in the province, so anytime we introduce a regulation that would impact an employer group, we have identified them as representative of that employer sector, so we would send them consultation documents. I'm guessing they've received in the last couple of months the discussion document on improving the internal responsibility system in the legislation. I doubt that you've received the fall protection revisions, but it's possible. So there's an ongoing consultation in terms of policy or regulatory changes being made by the department. In terms of this issue specific to the workplace violence regulations, our intent is to come back to them about five years after they were introduced in 2013, which would basically see us consult on this issue in a formal fashion. I guess at any point in time that the industry had a perspective, we hear from people regularly.
MR. CONRAD: If I could just add to what Jim has already said, we've been pleased to have had an opportunity to provide input into the violence in the workplace guidelines as they were established and those two documents that he referred to that are used for training at the retail site. So we have had input and I hope we will continue to have input, and our position is that we would help out in any way we can.
MR. PARIS: Are you at any point, either in consultation or in partnership - I think that might be a more appropriate word - with government, doing anything around the area of consultation with the general public?
MR. CONRAD: No, we haven't had anything to do with that.
MR. PARIS: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Parker.
MR. PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll just follow up on my colleague's question about the general public. What are you hearing from the general public, your customers who are coming in to buy gasoline? Are any of them saying that they would be happy with pay before you pump or would they be opposed to it? I would just like to know, what is the feeling or the mood of the public out there?
MR. CONRAD: My sense is that there's a growing mood out there anyway on behalf of motorists who are looking for the fastest way to fuel their vehicle and get on the road. That is obviously to drive up to the pump and pay for it right at the pump. We see growing levels of that activity, but in terms of speaking for the public at large, again, I think there's that difference between the rural and urban divide again. Where it doesn't exist at all in the more
[Page 30]
rural parts of the province it would be a bigger change, a bigger adjustment than it would be in the major markets.
MR. PARKER: But are you hearing any of your customers saying, no, I wouldn't want this type of system?
MR. PACE: I've never heard anybody say they didn't want it. Honestly, it's not as hot a subject as gas regulation, you don't hear a whole lot of it. Most of the comments from customers are complaining about the price of gas, but it's not really a hot topic with customers.
MR. PARKER: So it generally seems like a win-win situation. As a retailer, I'm sure if everybody was doing it then it would save considerable loss from a business point of view. It's certainly a protection for retail workers and also from an employer's point of view, you wouldn't have to be concerned about liability or violence to your employees. It seems from the general public's point of view, overall it is a win-win, as far as I can see. Do you see anybody in the equation here that would be a loser in all of this?
MR. CONRAD: I guess I'd go back to the comment that I received from British Columbia, that being that if it's introduced properly and if the education process is adequate to the motoring public so that you don't end up in a situation where a motorist is finding out from the retailer for the first time that this is new legislation or regulation, I don't see any reason why Nova Scotia would be any different than British Columbia.
MR. PARKER: So properly implemented, as I mentioned, it could be a win-win for everyone?
MR. CONRAD: Yes.
MR. PARKER: Okay, thank you.
MR. PACE: The other thing on that is when self-serve was brought in in 1991, it was in the media, it was advertised, but for the first two or three weeks or even the first few months there would be people pulling up to the self-serve pump and sitting there waiting and waiting for service. It's just something, if it is brought in, gas stations would have to relay that information to certain customers who would just forget that the regulation was put into place.
MR. PARKER: Okay, thank you.
[Page 31]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Whalen.
MS. WHALEN: Just a short one. I wonder if Mr. LeBlanc could just tell me, do you hear of this at all in restaurants as well, people leaving without paying? That's another place where you get your food before you pay.
MR. LEBLANC: Yes, and actually the revision that was made to the Labour Standards Code, although, I guess it addresses gas and dash, it was primarily introduced to address the dine-and-dash provisions. It's a problem and, again, it's theft.
MS. WHALEN: Have you any indication whether it has improved as a result of those regulations that were introduced or guidelines that were introduced?
MR. STEWART SAMPSON: We did ask some of the police forces for data, but we limited our question to gasoline thefts. We didn't ask the question about other dashes.
MS. WHALEN: It's interesting that you say that really restaurants were number one in your mind then when you were bringing this in. Is that right, Mr. LeBlanc, is that how I read it?
MR. LEBLANC: The Labour Standard Code revisions were actually made by a different operating division in the department. I have some peripheral knowledge in terms of the change; I wasn't directly involved in introducing it.
MS. WHALEN: Because we haven't heard of that nearly as much, but I think it's another area that is probably costing retailers a lot, the food and beverage industry a lot of money as well. It's in your realm of responsibility now though?
MR. LEBLANC: No, it's still under the Labour Standards Code and the reason the change was introduced was to prevent the employer from deducting the loss from the employee.
MS. WHALEN: Very good. I wonder, just to follow up on some questions here from my colleagues, whether or not the government has been receiving through your office or others, Mr. LeBlanc - I imagine they'd be passed to you if they came in from any other source - any complaints from individual retailers or gasoline retailers asking you to make changes to the regulations, asking you to bring in this mandatory prepay.
[10:30 a.m.]
MR. LEBLANC: I can recall one specific concern that was raised by a gasoline dealer who identified that he wanted to see it introduced, in the last year.
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MS. WHALEN: So you're not being inundated with them, but you have had one that you can recall?
MR. LEBLANC: Yes.
MS. WHALEN: I just think it's interesting because if the association has chosen not to make it a big issue, maybe individuals that feel strongly about it might have been getting in touch with you in the meantime. That's it, thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Whalen, and thank you to our presenters for coming here this morning. We do have some more business to deal with here but if I may suggest that we allow our presenters any closing remarks they might have, members have a chance to say goodbye before we return so we can finish off the business of the committee.
Mr. Conrad, I don't know if you had any closing comments, or Mr. LeBlanc, but here's your opportunity.
MR. CONRAD: No, other than to once again thank you very much for the opportunity to be here and provide you with the information that we have on gas and dash, and again extend ourselves available at any time if there's any further work or any further assistance on our part; we'll be only too glad to oblige.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Conrad, and thank you very much, Mr. Pace, for taking the time to be here. Mr. LeBlanc, Mr. Sampson, any closing comments?
MR. LEBLANC: Just thank you for the invitation and the opportunity to come. We basically would certainly, if there's some decision or direction that comes forward, work with the industry in terms of identifying the strategy to move any initiative forward, if that's the desire.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I appreciate you being here and I do understand the distinction you've drawn between the question of theft and worker safety and that you're primarily into worker safety, not into theft, so I understand some of the questions may have been difficult for you to answer in that regard, but I appreciate your attendance as well. So may I recommend that we just suspend the committee for five minutes and return to finish our business. Thank you.
[10:32 a.m. The committee recessed.]
[Page 33]
[10:42 a.m. The committee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: If I could call the committee back to order. The last two items of business that we have are regarding committee business. As you're probably aware, there is a new ABC appointments Web site as part of the Executive Council Web site. Members will know that the English and French brochures have been created for use as recruitment tools and copies are available on the Web site. Hard copies of this brochure were recently distributed to all Access Nova Scotia centres and each MLA received a package of these brochures for their constituency offices. It's my understanding there are also plans to further improve the ABC appointments Web site over the next few months.
The subcommittee previously discussed the Web site and their brochures at the subcommittee meeting on February 18, 2009, and it was recommended that the Executive Council be invited to present before the Human Resources Committee next month, which would be on March 31, 2009, to give an update/presentation regarding these new initiatives. So that is a recommendation that comes from our subcommittee. Is there any discussion on that motion? Mr. Parker.
MR. PARKER: What do we mean by Executive Council? Is it part of the Cabinet? Is it staff with Executive Council, or just who?
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm quite confident that once we send a request, they will identify the appropriate individuals from Executive Council who deal with the ABC appointments and will make those individuals available to us. But if you're asking me offhand who they are by name, I cannot answer that for you.
MR. MUIR: It ain't gonna be the Cabinet.
MR. CHAIRMAN: No, I highly doubt it will be the Cabinet or any of their ministers but I can say to you, Mr. Parker, in all honesty I look forward to seeing who these individuals are myself, for knowing who is responsible for the whole ABC appointments. So we'll send in a request and I have no doubt that they will send us the appropriate individuals to be able to update us and answer any questions that we might have.
[10:45 a.m.]
Is there any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
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So we will send off a request to Executive Council, in order to make themselves hopefully available for our March 31, 2009 meeting, which is our last order of business, to confirm the date of March 31, 2009, from 9:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m., where we will deal with appointments to agencies, boards and commissions.
Are there any further matters of discussion for the committee today? There being none, I thank you for your co-operation and it was a joy chairing this committee for you today.
I move that the committee now adjourn, to meet again on March 31st. That is all, thank you very much.
[The committee adjourned at 10:46 a.m.]
